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This is the downbeat on ninety seven
to one, the Freak. We kicked

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it off at six am this morning, as we always do, tons of

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stuff, the breaking news to do
that Toby Keith passed away. Kind of

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been hitting that got a little maths
earlier at seven. There's some super Bowl

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prop bets at eight. That was
a lot of fun. It's gonna be

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a wild one, is it?
Super Bowl Week? Stay tuned all week

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here on the downbeat for more super
Bowl fun throughout the week. Uh,

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because it's going to ramp up on
that end. That's right, Kevin at

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your bottom dollar. But Mike,
I'd like for you to set up our

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in studio guest. We have an
in studio guest. He's walked in and

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he's handed some of us his new
book that is I think released today.

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This is my good friend Bradley Folsom
joining us. Hi. Brad, Hey,

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buddy, how are we doing great? How's the yoga breathing doing?

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It's good? But even still doing
it. I'm probably gonna fail on the

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air as I always do. That's
why we bring you in. It's a

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nice blend of failure and information.
Bradley Folsom, I've never heard Bradley fail

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on the air all life the smartest
man in the room and makes us look

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like shlubs. But I'm incredibly nervous, like I'm barely holding it together,

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right, I can tell every time. You really can't tell. How many

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times would you guess you've been on
the radio with I guess me. I

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think this might be five. But
every time it's nerve wracking. Yeah.

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I saw him down in the lobby
shaking like a leafed pacing mom Brad.

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And then we woke up the elevator
and it's like, uh, my pants

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are ripped. I have to point
out when I've got something going on so

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other people don't point out it.
I point out first, then he points

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out all his flaws, beats you
to it, and then I said it

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live on the radio. We've had
brad on on Circuceroy, the previous show

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that my brother and I had on
our other station, and I don't know.

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He's an interesting guy. And I
know we had you on most recently

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because you are a naval veteran and
spent a good amount of time on a

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submarine. I know I asked you
every time, what how long were you

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on that? Bad Boy? I
was in the Navy for six years on

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the sub for four on the sub
for four, And I asked you how

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the longest submerging was. I was
only under for a month at a time,

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so like we were on deployment for
five months, which is way less.

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I think nowadays they do it like
nine month deployments, and like you'll

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get the boomers, the ones that
had the nukes, that will be underwater

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for like three months straight. So
like, did you've never come up for

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air in three months? No?
No, I think yeah, they have

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oxygen to make oxygen, and then
they'll get the little snorkel every once in

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a while to go up and get
some fresh air, but no underwater for

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three months straight. Did you got
the psychological debriefing that must go go on

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for a lot of these dudes that
come out of this stuff. Yeah,

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yeah, exactly. I just saw
something I can't find it right now.

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Yesterday. It was just it was
clickbait or what. But it was for

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a you know, we have the
billion billionaire yachts, but it was a

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billionaire submarine and I'm like, okay, that sounds like something insane. I

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think it was like two billion dollars, Like how many. What's your pool

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of people that can spend two billion
dollars on a luxury submarine. But it's

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an Australian company that is that is
doing these things, and I think they

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can only go down to an eight
hundred and fifty feet I mean, is

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that a good idea after what happened
with that Titanic thing? Yeah? I

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know if the private sub is a
great idea exactly, but I think that

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eight hundred and fifty foot threshold keeps
it in a different category maybe than what

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the titan submersible was going for.
Yeah, but why do you need that?

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I mean, I can see a
yacht you want to cruise around and

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it's gorgeous. What's the real value
of going under just to say you have

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it? But what have I done? What have I not done? Yeah?

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Yeah, they've done everything. Yeah. Yeah, that's a reading that

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Pablo Escobar actually had submarines and with
coke subs, Yeah, coke subs and

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would uh traffic drugs via submarine out
the Florida coast back in the day.

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It seems genius. Yeah for that. And then what let him out and

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boo him to the surface? Yeah
yeah, and then they've got you know,

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the little motor boat mules that'll come
scoop it up out of the water.

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Yeah. I think that's depicted in
Griselda, the Netflix series. What

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you guys need to watch It's good. I watched the first episode. Okay,

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good, yep, h Brad,
we have you in for assorted reasons.

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But Brad, among many things,
he is a local professor, a

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history professor, an interesting guy,
and he's an author. Is this book

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number two? Number three? Number
three? Yeah? What are your previous

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two? So? The first one
was on this Spanish general that killed half

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of Texas, like literally he Uh. So Texas used to be under Spain

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and uh uh eighteen ten, Mexico
goes through its independence period. Uh,

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and then they have this revolution.
Spain sends this guy in put down the

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revolution. He kills about half of
Texas. So Texas was only about four

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thousand people. He killed about half
of them, So dang is that?

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Yeah? And then the second one
was a guy, this Apache serial killer.

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I'm i'm I like morbid stuff apparently, but he he operated out of

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uh. He was born in Texas, but he operated in Chihuahua. Killed

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about two hundred and ninety eight people
like himself, him and his buddy.

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I think he was the biggest serial
killer in North American history. What's that?

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Uh? It's called uh uh,
I'm sorry. Book that's the one

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I have. Yeah, I haven't. I haven't had a chance to to

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to go through that yet. But
I was curious hearing your description of that

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again as we had you on last
year when we were on in Afternoons.

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Is that Are you a Larry me
Mercury fan? Have you read any of

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his stuff Lonesome Dove. I've seen
Lonesome Dove, okay, but I have

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never read when you described that that
it was a Native American serial killer.

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I wonder if the character of Blue
Duck was loosely based on that story,

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because if you remember, Blue Duck
was the the the Indian that that that

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captured Loraina, and he was a
murderous bad m effort that had that that

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Guss and call you know we're terrified
of. And I just wonder if Larry

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knew that story and kind of made
some type of amalgamation of characters in into

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this one. Well. So I'm
curious. I know this guy a lot

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of like fictional characters, so,
but I don't know about that one in

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particular. All Right, So Brad
has handed us his latest book. This

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comes out today, yeah, yesterday, yesterday, and uh it's titled Roman

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Spectacle on the Rio Grande, and
I love a subtitle Borderland Animal Fights at

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the turn of the Century. And
among the many times we've had Old Bradley

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in, he does always throw out
the claim that he is the world's leading

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inner species animal fighting expert. That's
correct, that is correct. I am

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don't even deny it. That is
correct. I don't want to be I

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want somebody to take the title from
me. That happened. Yeah, well

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two and four or eight one seven. We need a young, young,

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aspiring historian to take the torch.
Well, I love that that when Brad

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knows a lot about and writes books
about Texas history. And this was a

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pretty interesting part of Texas history and
Texas Mexico history. And this was at

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the border. So on the back
it just says eighteen ninety five to nineteen

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thirteen, promoters on the Texas Mexico
border imported a variety of large animals from

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around the world to pit them against
one another in interspecies combat. I mean,

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that's intriguing as hell. Yeah,
and uh, I guess that's why

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we have you in as the pub
this book, and to tell us about

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some of the stuff. You want
to put some battles together. We can

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make our bets on who we think
would win. But I don't know what's

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the history of this. I guess
the history of your knowledge about it and

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why the hell did this ever happen
down in South Texas? So I can't

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even remember how it started. But
I think I was just screwing around looking

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at old newspapers. You go to
like newspapers dot com and they have newspapers

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from eighteen hundreds nineteen hundreds, and
I think I ran across this one about

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this lion fighting a bear and Laredo
in eighteen ninety five, and it spawned

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my curiosity. So I used to
have this old blog. I wrote a

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blog post about it, and I'd
written another blog posts and nobody really cared

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about the other stuff I wrote.
But that one somehow got like one hundred

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two hundred thousand hits something like that, and so I started writing more.

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I found another one about a buffalo
fighting a bull. I found another one,

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a couple about bulls fighting lions,
and then I found one a tiger,

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lion, and a bear, I'm
sorry, a tiger, a bear,

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and a bull. And then I
found a elephant taking on four bulls.

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And like, whenever I talk about
this, this is what people's were

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fascinated with. Nobody cares about the
legit history. It's the animal combat stuff

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and the articles that you were looking
at on when you're doing you know,

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just stumbled across you said, the
first one was in these articles. Was

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there any context provided on how this
manifested or was it just basically a play

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by player recap of the event itself. Was there any reason to why a

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tiger was in Mexico? So yeah, So that one belonged to a guy

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named Felix Robert that was a French
bullfighter. This guy came to Mexico because

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I don't think he was making very
much money. He had, you know,

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tried bullfighting in Spain, just it
wasn't working out. Moved to Warez.

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Kind of found that Americans didn't like
bullfighting. And my guess for that

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is because like we like parody and
the bullfighter almost always beats the bull.

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And he also found, like you
know, just whatever, Americans are disgusted

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with bullfighting but they really like equal
animals or perceived equal animals to go against

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each other, so wanted to sell
tickets. Started throwing this animal with that

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animal, and he actually bought the
tiger. I think the tiger had killed

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one of its trainers, which is
a common theme here their their zoos,

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and then they killed the trainer.
They don't want to just kill the animal

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because that's a waste of money,
so you sell it to Felix Robert and

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he'll he'll fight it against an animal
and and warez. So that's it.

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Felix Robert is he the He's one
master of this spectacle. So there's a

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guy named Daniel Boone. That guy
Daniel Boone, No, but he named

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himself after that. I think he
uh, he was a promoter, vaudeville

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promoter. These guys used to like
just make up names to make them sound

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cool. Daniel Boone was a big
figure at the time, so he was

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one. He's the guy that staged
the bear versus bull, bear versus lion

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and bull versus bear fight. And
then you had a another promoter that I

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think this guy is really interesting.
This a guy named Billy Clark. He's

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a African American guy moved to Mexico
as a boxer. Couldn't find a white

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opponents in the United States because they
were started to be segregation in boxing at

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that point, so moved to Mexico, gets there, finds it. At

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that point, Mexicans didn't really care
about boxing. It wasn't one of their

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big sports. So he's like,
okay, well, I'm down here,

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how do I make money? Starts
fighting bulls, starts fighting bears, starts

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fighting lions, and he'd actually get
in the cage with them. Now,

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I think most of the time they're
drugged, but there are some instances where

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the bear will just like rip into
them. So yeah, but he's one

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promoter. There's a guy Bill Badger. He's an Aboriginal Australian guy. He's

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the guy that owned the elephant,
or he trained the elephant that's going to

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fight fight all the bulls. So
they're just these wild ass characters from all

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over the world coming together. It
sounds like the common thread among these guys

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are hustlers. Many they're they're trying
to make their way through this world,

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you know, and and they're desired
or profession or initial professions not working out.

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It's like well, I guess I'll
just make these animals fight each other,

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or hell, I'll fight them.
Yep. Well, I mean it's

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as old as time. I mean, the Super Bowl is this Sunday,

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and that's the most like refined,
perfected version of you fight you, and

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we will pay to watch it.
Yeah, it just keeps getting a little

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more sanitized and more acceptable to the
palette of our our I don't know,

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our evolved sensibilities. I mean,
so death, obviously, we hope is

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not in play in modern sports,
although it is, but back in the

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day it was to the death.
So I don't know, Give us a

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few of these matchups, give us
a give Kevin and Danny, because I

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actually remember who the I'm pretty sure
I remember who the king of them all

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is when it comes to animal fighting. But throw out a couple of matchups

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and let these guys place their bets
and see how they do well. On

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the cover, it's got a picture
of one of these buffalo bull fights.

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Who do you guys think would win
that? WHOA? So it's like an

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actual by Yeah, the buffalo bull
I think, I mean, I would

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say the buffalos. I think it's
heavier, but I don't know. But

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the bulls more agile, and I
think their horns are long more too.

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You could really gore. I'll go
ahead and guess buffalo. I'm gonna guess

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bull. I think the bull is
more athletic. So the buffalo is one

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of the ones that's going to take
out the bull. The bull's a pretty

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strong contender, but this the buffalo, almost every fight is going to win.

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I actually did a speech on this, like at a history conference on

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one of these fights. Sounds but
where were you when I was in college?

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I might have finished, Yeah,
I might have completed my studies.

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But after I did that, a
lady who was a rancher came up to

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me and she said, I had
buffalo and sometimes they would get in the

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pen with the bulls, and she
said, there was one instance where the

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buffalo tried to head butt head butt
a bull, but it happened to like

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hit right on the bulls horn and
so like the bull's horn went right through

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its forehead. So that's one instance
where the bull win. But like the

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insta killing. Yeah, otherwise the
buffalo's coming. Why is the buffalo winning?

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Just I think it's a weight.
I think it's just a lot of

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times, these bulls think that the
buffalo's defenseless because the buffalo is just sort

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of chilling there. But the buffalo, like it's the way it builds momentum

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is different. Like a bull needs
to charge sort of lower its head and

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ram but the way buffalo does it
is it uses its front legs and like

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it's just massive head. So the
bull will come in just charging. Then

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you'll get the buffalo like pivoting at
the last second, hitting it and it's

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just like all that weight comes in
and the buffalo's got a thicker skull.

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So I think that's what okay,
But does how does the buffalo get the

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kill shot on the bull with its
horns? So it in these instances or

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do they stomp them to death.
I'll just give you a couple ones,

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like they they don't kill in the
first couple of fights. Basically, the

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buffaloes just get I'm sorry, the
bull gets beat up so much it gets

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grows tired and just runs away or
goes to sleep in the ring. But

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there's one and some of the stuff
with this is like this is the time

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of yellow journalism, so you kind
of have like a lot of it's sensationalized,

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so you kind of have to piece
through some things. But supposedly in

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some of these buffalo bull fights,
like the buffalo hit the bull so hard

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it flew out of the ring.
I don't yeah, like it one it

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it like broke through the fence and
like the bull kind of spills out the

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other side. So cash, good
question, real quick. I'm sorry you

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said sensationalized. Yes, even like
back then sensationalized, because I feel like

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our media is sensationalized now, well
it's always been sensationalized, but late eighteen

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hundreds, early nineteen hundreds that's kind
of famous for like sensationalism and journalism,

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Like it's even more sensational than now, like that sort of like peak sensationalism.

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Incredible, And there wasn't as much, I much photography at all,

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so I think you're talking about hand
drawn reenactments and then you you want to

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sell pamphlets or papers, right,
So we do have some photographs, and

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the book's got a couple photographs,
like one with the elephant fighting the bull

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and the cover again the buffalo fighting
the bull. But there were a couple

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videos of these things, so like
the elephant fighting the bull, they took

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a video of that. The Mexican
police seized it, so I don't know

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if that exists somewhere. If you
go on YouTube, there's a couple buffalo

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versus I'm sorry, bull versus lion
fights. What supposedly one is from Warez,

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but I think the person who posted
it got it wrong. I think

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that one's actually from Spain. But
yeah, you can find so there are

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videos and photos, just not as
many as I would like. I'd like

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to put more of the photographs.
Cool, all right, This is our

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buddy Bradley AO. He is a
friend of mine and friend of the show,

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front of the station for for a
long time. His new book Roman

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Spectacle on the Rio Grande Borderland animal
fights at the turn of the century.

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I do have a text question.
If you put them in the ring,

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what is it that makes them fight? Why wouldn't they just coexist? So

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a lot of times they would,
they'd get in there and they'd just be

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like, I don't want to deal
with this guy, and at that point

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they would just like start poking them. There's a this is something they would

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actually do to bulls in traditional bullfights, like if the bull didn't want to

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fight they would like stick firecrackers in
him. They have this like poker that

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would stick firecrackers somehow and just sort
of force him to do that. So

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they they would provide incentives, like
for the elephant. I don't think the

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bulls wanted anything to do with the
big elephant, so they tied a flag

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around it to like basically simulate the
you know, the little mattador k or

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whatever. So something has to defend
itself if this thing is charging at him.

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Yeah, So sometimes they would go
at it, but other times they'd

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have to sort of prod them.
So the first chapter is called The Lion,

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the Bear and the Bull. Let's
get some lions and bear action going

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here? What do we got here? So? Are we taking bets or

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you just want me to well?
Who was against who? Was it?

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All three of them against each other? Is that? So it was a

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trifect It started out with the started
out with the lion and the bear,

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then it went to the bear in
the bull, then it went to the

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lion in the bull. Sounds like
a C. S. Lewis novel,

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Yeah, I know right, and
the wardrobe So lion versus bear happened?

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Yes, So I'll give the background
story. It's a guy, this is

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the Daniel Boone guy. He was
a vaudeville circus performer. Like, he

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had this lion thing that he would
his wife would stick her head in the

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lion's mouth. He would have lions
riding tricycles, things like that, and

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he had one particularly vicious line named
Parnell who killed a trainer. And so

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he's got to get rid of this
lion. Doesn't want to waste the money,

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so tries to to set up a
bear versus lion fight in California.

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At this point, the ASPCA Humane
Society, they're up and running like people

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think that that's modern, but no, that was in the eighteen hundreds.

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They wouldn't let it happen. California
canceled it. Tries to fight in Texas,

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Texas wouldn't let it happen, and
then decides to go down to Mexico.

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So Innuava Laredo, across the border
from Laredo, and yeah, he's

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sixties two in the cage. So
the bear a guy named Ramadon is what

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they called it. The background of
him is a little shady, but like

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or I couldn't couldn't tell for sure, but one stories he killed a trainer.

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Another one is a hunter just found
him in the California wilderness but threw

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him together in a cage in Laredo. What kind of bear grizzly? It

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may be one of the last California
golden bears. So which is a type

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of grizzly Okay? And what kind
of lion? I guess I don't know.

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A five hundred and fifty pound African
lion? Yeah, all right,

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boys, who do you got?
Grizz bear? African lion? Man pro

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handicappers Kevin Turner and like, the
weight and power thing seems to play a

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big factor in this. Man.
I'm gonna go with bear, brown,

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grizzly bear. Yeah, brown bear, ye bear. Yeah, Yes,

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it's the weight factor a lot of
times, not all the time, but

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a lot of times you can tell
with the weight and uh yeah, the

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grizzly bear, they go at it. The lion like basically grabs them,

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tries to like use its uh rear
pause to rip out the bear's guts,

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but but bears hide was too thick. The bear grabbed him, uh and

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then sort of they said, broke
his ribs. Broke the lion's ribs I

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don't think that's the case. But
did a bear hug threw it in a

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somersault? Hit lion, hit the
side the cage and knocked it, knocked

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it out. Some people are texting
in a few questions like they have some

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matchups. Should we take some more
text matchups and see if Brad can handicap

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those two? Absolutely? I bet
we'll stick around for a minute. Sure,

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Brad, I bet you are a
fascinating first tender date. Surprisingly,

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women don't find this fast. What, No, they don't find it interesting

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at all. Yeah, we have
a lot of texts, including some matchups.

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Let's get to him. We even
have he needs to be a weekly

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guest, and then we also have
checking out until animal fighting is done.

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Not an interesting topic that happens.
You can't please everyone. That was a

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girl on Tinder. It just said, girl, this is our buddy,

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00:21:30.480 --> 00:21:37.039
brad fulsome the world's leading expert on
interspecies animal cage fight. We'll screw around,

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play some talkbacks. Yeah, follow
up anything we missed out on,

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and maybe present a couple of animal
fights to Brad and see where his head

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at. His head's out. We'll
do that next right here. In ninety

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seven, to one the freak