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We're back with another edition of The
Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Emil Drishnski,

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culture editor here at the Federalist.
As always, you can email the show

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at radio at the Federalist dot com, follow us on Twitter at FDRLST.

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Make sure to subscribe wherever you download
your podcasts into the premium version of our

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website as well. Today we're joined
by Ethan Brown. He is a writer

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and commentator for Young Voices, has
a BA and Environmental Analysis and Policy from

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Boston University, and is the creator
and the host of the Sweaty Penguin and

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award winning winning comedy climate program that
is presented by pbsw NETS National Climate Initiative

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Peril and Promise. You can follow
him on Twitter at Ethan Brown. Five

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one five one. Ethan, thanks
for joining us, Thanks for having me.

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It's great to be here. Of
course, usually I start just by

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asking for a little bit of their
background, how they ended up where they

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are. One part of that question
is already somewhat answered in the bio I

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just gave, which is that you
actually studied environmental environmental analysis and environmental policy

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when you were in college at BEU. But what made you want to go

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into this field in particular. Have
you're always sort of been fascinated by these

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questions of climate and environmentalism. I
really wasn't. I think around high school

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I started hearing about climate change and
it totally freaked me out. I was

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scared, but I didn't find it
interesting. I was never like an outdoorsy

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person growing up. But I was
actually going to college for film and television,

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and I felt like, as a
storyteller, I needed a story to

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tell, and this seemed important.
So I decided to try to learn and

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take some classes on it, and
that was ultimately what inspired me to do

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a dual degree, adding the environmental
analysis and policy. I realized that there

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was a lot more to climate change
than just these dooming gloom headline. There

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were a lot of nuanced to the
issues, a lot of solutions that we

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could be pursuing, a lot of
progress that had already happened. So I

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was learning about that. At the
same time, I ran us satire publication

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The Bunyan for two years. That
was a really great experience, and so

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sort of taking that comedic interest and
combining it with my climate interest, I

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felt that comedy could be a tool
to help make climate change a little less

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overwhelming, a little more fun,
bringing new people, and that was the

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genesis of the Sweaty Penguin, which
I started in early quarantine and has now

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become a real thing. Yeah,
tell us more about the Sweaty Penguin where

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people can find it. Yeah,
The Sweaty Penguin, like you said,

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is a comedy climate program that I
host. It's presented by PBS's National Climate

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Initiative, Parallel Promise, and our
goal is to make climate change less overwhelming,

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less politicized, and more fun.
So we go into a variety of

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different topics and news stories. We
explore how issues affect not just the environment,

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but also the economy, health,
justice, etc. We spend a

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lot of time on solutions, and
all of it is sort of through pseudo

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Latenight comedy style formats, so you
can find it on any podcast platforms,

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The Sweaty Penguin dot com at Parallel
Promise really really wherever we're there. So

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one of the reasons we actually don't
cover climate very often on this podcast is

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sort of what you mentioned earlier,
which is when you get to the level

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of professionally studying the climate, it
opens up so many different avenues. You

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know, you think you're going down
one road, and then there are a

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million different side roads, and it's
just so incredibly complicated. There's a dearth

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of unpoliticized or non politicized expert commentary
on it, but there's a surplus of

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highly politicized punditry and commentary on it. And this was never more on full

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display, I think, than the
month of July. And you wrote about

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this for real clear energy. You
had an op ed there that's a climate

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change drove July's heat records, But
did elnin you? And really this is

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in part a piece of media commentary, media criticism. I saw so much

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coverage about very very simple about the
month of July being the hottest month on

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record, and there's a lot more
context than nuance that needs to be added

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to that conversation. I say this
even as a non expert who can look

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at charts and make conclusions, simple
conclusions based on you. Sometimes, so

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Ethan tell us about what you wrote
in this op ed and just dive into

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a little bit of your perspective as
you flushed it out on that piece about

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the news coverage on July. I
think it was the first time I pitched

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an up at headline that was just
a fact, but it was I think

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important to discuss some of the media
coverage. And there have been times where

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I thought the media was way more
egregious and the way in which they covered

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a story than this. But my
concern here was climate change. Yes,

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has driven what became the hottest month
on record in July. Climate change was

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most of it, but El Nino
was a factor too. El Nino is

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a natural process. It takes place
in the Pacific Ocean, and it has

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to do with trade winds, and
we can get into those details more if

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you want, but essentially that process
has a slight heating effect on the world

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and that we just entered an El
Nino event this summer, and that sort

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of nudged all these records from pretty
hot to into the record books. So

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when we saw headlines saying climate change
run amok, climate change out of control,

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like, I don't think that was
the quite the right way to frame

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it. We know where climate change
is, it's not great, but it

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wasn't necessarily what nudged these things into
the record books. And I just felt

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that that distinction was really important.
Again, climate change had a much bigger

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old than Elnino, but Elino did
have a role too, And I think

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if people don't understand that, then
they just think climate change is even worse

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than we thought and we're all doomed, and that isn't entirely accurate. And

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you get into that and the piece
one will put a pin in that part

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of the conversation because it's equally interesting
and important. I want to ask how

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you, as somebody who studies as
professionally, disentangle those variables, that is

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to say, the anthropogenic sort of
aspect of climate and then all of the

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incredibly difficult variables on a monthly,
daily, weekly basis El Nino, whatever

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was going on, trade winds,
as you say, So, as someone

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who's working on this issue professionally and
you're looking at the hard science disentangling those

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variables, I imagine it's difficult.
But how do you go about it?

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So whether in climate are two different
things. Weather refers to on a given

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hour or day or week, what's
going on with temperature precipitation. Climate refers

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to much longer trends, often on
the scale of five one hundred years.

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What is going on? So the
reason I think it's not too difficult to

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kind of split apart the climate change
in the El Nino conversations. El Nino

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is a cycle that on average,
i'd say takes around seven years to happen.

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There are El Nino events where the
Earth gets a little bit hotter,

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and there are La Ninia events where
the Earth gets a little bit cooler.

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It's not a perfect cycle, but
there is some regularity to that climate change.

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What we talk about as being a
big concern that humans have driven via

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carbon emissions, that is a much
longer time scale. So when we look

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at a climate change trendline, we're
talking at longer scales than seven years or

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in the case of an individual Elnino
or La Nina event, more like two

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or three years. So in that
sense, we can look at a graph

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of climate change over the last two
hundred three hundred thousand years and we see

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patterns. We see that there's been
a big spike from the late eighteen hundreds

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to today. That is obviously a
lot more time than an El Nino La

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cycle. But if we looked just
from twenty sixteen to twenty twenty three,

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that's where the data gets a little
more muddy, and so we don't want

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to do that per se. We
want to look at those trend lines and

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analyze those averages when we're considering how
extreme climate change has been. And again,

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I'm far from an expert in this
field, but I'm always very convinced

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by the argument from skeptics of the
sort of anthropogenic panic. And I don't

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mean to lump you into the panic
catecorning, because I don't think you fit

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there. But who say you know? So if we started taking these temperatures

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regularly, or our record keeping goes
back to the eighteen seventies, it's essentially

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a blink in the eye and the
scope of the history of this planet,

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of the Earth, the history of
humanity on this planet. And I know

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that we do have data from I
think we use like carbon dating from tree

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rings, right, and those sorts
of things going back a long time to

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determine a picture of what the climate
may have been like in different parts of

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the world. But how are we
this is I'll put this in the form

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of a question, how confident can
we be or how serious are these these

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trends? How can we know that
they're serious? If our our record keeping

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is essentially just spanning. I mean, I saw some really bad media coverage

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that was showing, you know,
spikes since the nineteen seventies or something without

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adding you know, the sort of
relevant perspective time perspective in context there.

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So, how can we be confident
in the severity of these trends if our

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sort of regular, high quality data
is going back to you know, eighteen

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seventies in the best of cases.
Yeah, that's a great question. So,

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like you said, we can date
climate back very very far through a

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variety of means. There's ice cores, there's stuff you can do with stalagmites

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and stalactites. There is ocean sediments
that we can study. So there's a

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lot of ways in which scientists can
do that to remarkable accuracy. I have

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some colleagues who do paleo climate.
I think that what's different about today is

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a few things. First off,
a lot of the natural variations that we've

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seen in history take a lot longer
to play out, or if they took

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less time, it was because the
asteroid hit the earth and killed the dinosaurs,

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or there were volcanoes or what have
you. What we've seen in the

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last fifty to one hundred years or
so, we know that solar activity has

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been pretty stagnant since the fifties.
We know volcanic activity, if anything,

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has sort of declined a bit.
And we know what the greenhouse effect is.

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We know that gases like carbon dioxide
and methane are structured in such a

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way where when infrared radiation hits it, it will create this wobbling effect that

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passes energy and essentially creates a bit
of a blanket over the planet. And

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we know how much carbon dioxide we
as humans have emitted, and we can

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do the math and see that that's
what's causing the warming that we have today

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if we go back and early rice
versa too, So like when we take

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steps to limit carbon emissions, we
can see another sort of way to look

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at the data is to reverse what
happens then. And I suppose it also

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plays into the same confirmation or validation
of that type of hypothesis. Yeah,

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that's exactly right. So I appreciate
the question a lot because it is important

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to look at all these different factors, and I think we've been able to

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do that, and we've been able
to see that it really is human carbon

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emissions that are driving today's warming,
and it's happening at a faster rate than

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we normally see throughout history, and
that gives us cause for concern. Folks,

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sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt
there. It's just it's it is.

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It's one of those things that as
a relatively young ish conservative, I

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remember they showed me an Inconvenient Truth
like twice when I was in high school,

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like a public high school. I
was watching Inconvenient Truth two different times,

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and I've just like since checked out
because I don't know what to trust.

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I genuinely feel like I can't trust
anything. In the effort that would

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I would need to put into figuring
out what to trust would be, you

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know, really difficult for me to
even have confidence in it after all of

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that. And that's where I want
to talk about another thing. This is

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sort of where you end the piece
in real clear energy, which everyone should

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go read. I think about,
you know, the great David Sirota who

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criticizes the media sort of from the
left and says media is doing you know,

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if this is really an existential crisis, then it should be blanketing the

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airway. It was like, what
is Morning Joe doing to draw a very

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obvious sort of parallel to what he
did and don't look up with Adam McKay.

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On the other hand, though media
loves to sort of do the if

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it bleeds, it leads thing,
and that we definitely saw in July a

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lot of that with climates so ethan
as somebody again who follows this really closely,

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where do you sort of or how
do you rate media coverage of climate

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right now? It depends on the
situation and it depends on the outlet.

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But I think all in all it
hasn't been great. I think I mentioned

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in the piece there was an analysis
by Media Matters that looked from I believe

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June fifteenth to twenty ninth of the
coverage of the Texas heat waves on ABC,

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CBS, NBC, MSNBCCNN, and
Fox and found I believe it was

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something like five percent of those stories
covered climate, even though there was already

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science done at the time that was
able to directly attribute some of that extreme

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heat to climate. That's a newer
thing that climate scientists are able to do.

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So things like that certainly concern me. But on the flip side,

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there's also a lot of alarmists coverage
that I don't think it is very productive

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either. I think there was a
headline that said, like climate change out

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of control with regard to July's heat. Things like that that just aren't really

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contextualized, right, it's almost hard
to put a word on it. What

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I want to see more of is
solutions coverage. I think that there is

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a lot of progress happening that people
don't know about, and there's a lot

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of progress we can make that will
not just help the environment, but also

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help the economy, health, all
these important things, And if we can

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have more stories about that, that
will hopefully engage more people, because,

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like you said, watching an Inconvenient
Truth or don't look up, you don't

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want to think about this ever.
Again, I think I had a similar

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thing happened myself. So hopefully more
coverage that shows the path forward will help

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people engage. I remember learning about
all of the different I mean this was

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just a couple of years after Inconvenient
Truth came out and again was being shown

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in my public high school biology class
and just learning eventually where where he missed

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the mark in some really big ways, and again that just eroded any sense

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of trust that I had at a
fairly young age. I mean, this

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is like early Obama years, and
I wonder, now, you know,

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we've had marian Williamson on here,
and Marianne talks about when she meets with

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young leftists, a lot of young
progressives who tell her they don't want to

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have children because of the environment,
which polling bears out that that's sort of

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an increasingly common thing. Polling bears
out that young people are in some cases

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terrified. I'm in the concept of
like climate anxiety. I have no idea

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how real that is, but it
seems like something that I don't blame kids

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for being frightened of when they're getting
the messaging that they're getting from all of

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that. So Ethan, what do
you see in terms of how these these

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messages are affecting young people, especially
because I know that you know you're you're

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in that space and what you're doing
is serves geared in that space specifically,

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what do you make of all of
What I find fascinating is the reaction you

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describe to an inconvenient truth that you
had, which was honestly very similar to

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how I reacted at first, and
the reaction that a lot of young people

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have that is termed climate anxiety,
to me, are the exact same thing.

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It's whether you disengage or whether you
go in this super alarmist we're all

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doomed nihilism in direction it's maybe not
the right reaction to have, it's a

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very understandable reaction, and that's where
I try to come in and lend some

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credibility, try to think about all
these issues critically, try to present solutions

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inject humor, because I think if
we can kind of work at that emotion

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of be it fear, be it
anxiety, be it distrust, be it

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whatever, I think that we can
bring more people into the conversation, and

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if there's more people in it,
then I think we can sue much better

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solutions. We have multiple political perspectives, multiple backgrounds, and I think that

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ultimately helps everybody. So that's a
lot of the work that I try to

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do, and I find that we're
able to cultivate a very bipartisan audience of

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everyone from the climate anxious to the
climate skeptical, because it is kind of

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that same emotion that we're that we're
targeting. The watched Alt on Wall Street

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00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:33,200
podcast with Chris Markowski every day.
Chris helps unpack the connection between politics and

241
00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:36,920
the economy and how it affects your
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Street, it's affecting you financially.
Be informed. Check out the watched Alto

246
00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:56,920
on Wall Street podcast with Chris Markowski
on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get

247
00:18:56,920 --> 00:19:04,359
your podcasts. And one of the
reasons I think Michael Schellenberger has really taken

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00:19:04,359 --> 00:19:07,920
off on the right. And that's
not to put Michael on the right.

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He wouldn't know he's been on this
podcast of a few times, and he

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wouldn't identify himself as a conservative by
any means, but he's he's become a

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really trusted voice in conservative circles and
conservative media. And I think part of

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that is his optimism. It's it's
not just sort of rationalism, but optimism.

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And I want to ask you,
Ethan if you share that optimism,

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and it's totally fine if you don't, because you can't force optimism. If

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it's if you're you know, sort
of a val evaluation of the numbers isn't

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leading you towards an optimistic direction,
but the positive thing I think that Schellenberger

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conveys to conservative audiences is that it's
within our power to control a lot of

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this, that there are, you
know, steps that we can take,

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and that the sort of capacity of
human beings to survive and innovate, which

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we've seen over and over again in
this country, we've seen carbon emissions decrease

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in ways that people probably wouldn't have
predicted. And I know people will say

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there's a long way to go,
especially for countries probably like China and India,

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but in the United States, in
the West, there happened some steps

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taken, some reasonable steps taken,
probably a lot of very unreasonable ones too,

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but some reasonable steps taken, and
I think that's part of what has

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helped Michael a lot. But Ethan, do you share that sentiment that this

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is something within our control. We're
already making progress and we can keep doing

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we can keep just sort of tackling
it day by day. I absolutely share

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that optimism, and it's backed up
with facts. I think that first off,

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the fact that humans did cause this
also means we can fix it,

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which I think is a good thing. But like you said, looking in

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the United States, our carbon emissions
have dropped by about sixteen percent since two

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thousand and five. They're on track
to continue to drop. We've seen the

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cost of solar dropped by eighty five
percent in the last decade, wind by

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fifty five percent, and EV batteries
by eighty five percent. Looking globally,

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certainly there are a lot of countries
that are not doing as well. But

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at the same time, we've seen
in twenty fourteen, I believe the world

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was on track to warm by four
degrees celsius based on current policy, technology,

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etc. Today we're on track to
warm by about two point six Still

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not great. That would be a
lot of damage, but that can come

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down, and that shows a significant
amount of progress over the last nine years.

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So those things get me really excited. And then looking to the future.

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In the latest report from the Inner
Governmental Panel on Climate Change, they

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did something I thought was pretty cool. They took I believe forty two forty

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three climate solutions, just very broad
things like solar energy or bicycles or not

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like specific policies, and they took
the seventeen twenty thirty sustainable Development goals,

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so things like and world hunger and
poverty, economic innovation, that type of

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thing and they impaired climate solution to
sustainable development goal and evaluated whether there were

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synergies, whether there were tradeoffs,
or whether there was a combination. And

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of those hundreds of combinations, only
twelve were pure tradeoffs, a majority were

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synergies, some had a mix,
but only twelve were tradeoffs. And so

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to me, that signals that we
can use climate solutions to solve all these

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other issues we care about. People
often say why should we do XYZ if

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China and India aren't doing it.
Well, if we do it, then

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we solve these issues here and then
we win. So hopefully everyone does it.

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But if we do it ourselves,
it's not necessarily a sacrifice, assuming

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we do it correctly and don't do
it with any sort of idiotic policy.

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But if we do it smartly and
we do it right, we can really

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make a positive difference in everything we
care about well. And in that case

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you can see how market incentives would
be incredibly important. Also just the insensives.

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In some ways, it's like I
don't mean nuclear power, I mean

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nuclear weaponry. I's canna say it's
In some ways it's like nuclear where you

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actually have to it becomes an inevitable
wedge or bargaining chip. There's nothing you

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can do about it, but it
does become a bargaining chip in sort of

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international relations. One question I want
to ask, then, is is the

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movement it's biggest enemy, The sort
of environmental movement it's biggest enemy because there

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are high profile activists and lawmakers pushing
for things like gas stove bands, trying

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to shut down the pizza ovens,
and near aticity. There are some people,

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you know, gluing themselves to the
pavement on you know, bad predictions

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about the world ending in a matter
of a you know, a year or

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two, whatever it is they believe, And so it seems to me that's

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an incredible distraction, and it has
that's exactly the kind of thing that you

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know, makes normal people just tune
out and say, I have absolutely no

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idea to trust, So I can't
get behind whatever this is because I'm just

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disengaging. As one of my favorite
Real Housewives would say, Lisa Barlow,

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I'm just I'm just disengaging. So
in that sense, is the environmental movement

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the sort of far left or fringe
of the environmental movement which drives the conversation

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about environmentalism in so many cases,
and is driving policy in so many other

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cases, and does not want to
cooperate with the business community, is uncooperative

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probably in general. What am I
reading into that as somebody on the right

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or is there truth behind that?
No, I fully agree with that.

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I think that there have been a
lot of instances where a lot of environmental

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groups will do things that lead people
to disengage or not like them, and

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that leads them to disengage with the
whole concept of environmentalism entirely, which is

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a shame because when I talk to
people, regardless of your political perspective,

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everyone wants clean air, clean water, and a healthy environment. That's pretty

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common. And so yeah, I
think the reasons some of that has happened.

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I did an episode at one point
where we talked about there was a

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study that monikered what was called the
three point five percent rule, which basically

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showed by various social movements over the
last century or so that whenever a movement

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had three point five percent of the
population protesting, it was always a success.

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So there are some of these environmental
groups that actually have on their website

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talking about the three point five percent
rule and if we can just get three

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point five percent of the people,
then we can make change. But none

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of these movements in history did that
by antagonizing the other ninety six point five

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percent of the population. To get
three point five percent protesting, you need

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a large majority of people caring about
your cause, because not a lot of

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people choose to express their support by
protesting. And furthermore, the study was

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actually looking at what they called aximalist
campaigns, where it was like overthrowing a

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dictator or something, where there was
a clear yes, we succeeded or no,

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we did not. A climate protest
just does not have that. You

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can maybe advocate a specific policy,
but you can't say, oh, three

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point five percent of the population cares
about climate, so we fixed it.

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That's just not how that works.
So I think that's where maybe a portion

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of this attitude came from, that, at the very least, how they

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communicate it to the public. But
yeah, I think it's been unfortunate.

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And to me, what I always
say is the facts and the science,

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if we actually look at it,
are absolutely of concern and in favor of

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taking action. Anytime someone exaggerates that
or sensationalizes it or does things that will

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just annoy people. That just turns
people off. It leads to distrust,

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and I think it's a lot more
productive to just lead with the facts,

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lead with the science, and from
there, I think everyone should have cause

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for concern. Yeah, it's it's
a distrust. And then I think also

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what you're getting in is this like
powerlessness or nihilism almost that it's it's very

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disempowering if you know these like alarmist
things are being bandied about it. It

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feels like it just totally neuters the
average person's ability to do anything about it.

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And that probably goes to why people
say, like maybe I don't need

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to have children because their lives will
be inhabited or they will be inhabiting an

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earth that is is perpetually on fire
with ocean's just constantly on fire and there's,

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uh, you know, natural disasters
every other day. Where what's your

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advice for people who want to get
good climate information, because it's very very

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hard to cut through the noise.
It's very very hard to and I'm speaking

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obviously as somebody, this is personal, and it's very hard to cut through

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the noise. It's very hard to
trust what you're seeing in headlines. So

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what is your recommendation for the best
obviously, Sweaty Penguin, how do you

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go about finding the best information on
it? Yeah, number one, come

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over to the Sweaty Penguin. That's
what we're all about, and I mean

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that seriously. I think that we
do a really nice job of cutting through

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the dooming gloom and putting together stories
and content that give the full nuance of

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an issue, think about it as
critically as possible, and I hope that

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that can be a valuable introduction to
anyone who whether you're a climate anxious or

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climate skeptical, or climate indifferent,
I think we are a great place to

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start. How I find news is
I have a lot of newsletters that I

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subscribe to, and I think there
are imperfections with all of them, but

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I try to read multiple stories on
every issue. I fortunately have had the

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opportunity to interview over a hundred experts
on these topics, and I did a

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degree in environmental analysis and policy,
so I can textualize a lot of these

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stories through that experience, and that
allows me to put together what I think

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00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:07,440
is better coverage. I know most
people don't have that experience when they read

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a story. So that's why I've
tried to create the Sweaty Penguin, which

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I hope can can serve that audience. I want to ask also in the

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context this doesn't I mean, a
lot of people probably remember Cylindra, but

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I'm sensing that we'll probably have,
you know, maybe ten little mini cylinders

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00:29:25,799 --> 00:29:29,799
coming out of the Biden administration,
given and maybe that's inevitable given the giant

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00:29:29,799 --> 00:29:33,279
package, the Inflation Reduction Act,
which had a lot of environmental priorities included

386
00:29:33,319 --> 00:29:37,799
in it, and I mean,
in some sense was like green new deal

387
00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:41,599
light with the inflation branding. But
on that note, how do you go

388
00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:47,440
about this well maintaining market incentives?
You know, it's Tesla's something that's really

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00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:52,200
stress testing this right now. They're
having like a harder time selling electric vehicles

390
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than they probably realize, and that
would be probably another podcast in and of

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00:29:56,400 --> 00:30:00,759
itself. But how important is it
to go about all of this in a

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00:30:00,799 --> 00:30:07,720
way that also is creating something that's
receptive to demand, Creating products and innovations

393
00:30:07,759 --> 00:30:12,000
that are receptive to demand, which
we have seen successful in different cases,

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00:30:12,039 --> 00:30:18,440
But you know, not just putting
that really awful new dishwasher and making that

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00:30:18,519 --> 00:30:21,240
like the only thing anyone come by, but actually making a better product.

396
00:30:22,759 --> 00:30:27,319
Yeah, I think environmentally sustainable products
have to be better products for it to

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work, and we're moving faster and
faster in a direction where they are.

398
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If we were talking fifteen years ago, I honestly don't know how optimistic I

399
00:30:37,519 --> 00:30:41,160
would have been, because a lot
of things like solar and wind and evs

400
00:30:41,359 --> 00:30:45,839
and like it just wasn't there.
And now it's come so far to the

401
00:30:45,839 --> 00:30:49,880
point where a lot of these technologies
are cheaper than the fossil fuel alternatives.

402
00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:56,200
So I agree. I think if
we're talking about a toilet that won't flush

403
00:30:56,279 --> 00:30:59,519
right because it's trying to save the
gallon and water, that's a problem.

404
00:30:59,559 --> 00:31:03,559
But if we're talking about a technology
that can genuinely beat out their competition,

405
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then I would love to see free
market takeover and certainly creating market incentives so

406
00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:18,599
people know what is environmentally sustainable and
any externalized costs are internalized. But I

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00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:22,839
think that type of thing can really
work great because ultimately consumers should be empowered,

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00:31:22,839 --> 00:31:27,319
they should have full information and they
should choose whatever products they want.

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00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:34,119
But we also want to create a
system that enables again, if something has

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00:31:34,559 --> 00:31:41,720
external costs that are hurting the environment, or have human rights violations or something

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00:31:41,759 --> 00:31:45,319
like that. We want people to
know that, we want prices to reflect

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00:31:45,359 --> 00:31:48,279
that. So absolutely, I think
that kind of thing can be effective.

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00:31:48,319 --> 00:31:52,759
And again, like you said,
it comes back to making products that are

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00:31:52,759 --> 00:31:56,200
not just sustainable but better, right, And then when you throw subsidies at

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00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:59,519
people, you don't always get better
products. And that's sort of a catch

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00:31:59,559 --> 00:32:01,000
twenty two because if you don't throw
the subsidies at people, how do you.

417
00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:06,039
Yeah, it's it's not an easy
thing to do, but it's certainly

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00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:08,400
not helpful to just have a product
that sucks, which I think a lot

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00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:12,599
of people feel like. I was
listening to a podcast that was going off

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00:32:12,759 --> 00:32:16,519
on the incandescent ban, the incandescent
light bulb ban under Biden. Not even

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00:32:16,519 --> 00:32:20,920
like a very political podcast, but
it was just something that had struck someone

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00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:23,960
very deeply. I want to ask
how you evaluate it. Seems to me,

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00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:28,480
again someone who doesn't follow us super
closely, but that Republican politicians in

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00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:31,759
particular have dealt with these questions on
a somewhat uneven basis depending on where they

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00:32:31,759 --> 00:32:37,319
are. So if they're in a
state that is confronting the environment in a

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00:32:37,319 --> 00:32:42,599
way that's totally different from another state. You may see different levels of cooperativeness

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00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:47,720
with the climate movement. Could you
do have any insight and how that's sort

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00:32:47,759 --> 00:32:53,440
of transpired on a national level,
what's happened at the state level when it

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00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:58,799
comes to Republicans, who maybe have
a very skeptical voter base, including many

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00:32:58,839 --> 00:33:02,160
of us that are that are listening
to this and myself included, how they've

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00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:07,839
kind of handled these questions. Yeah, I hope that it can be talked

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00:33:07,839 --> 00:33:15,640
about more on both sides. I
think the Republicans side in particular. It's

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00:33:16,039 --> 00:33:21,079
it's been tricky, and I totally
get it. I mean, when Al

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00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:23,519
Gore tried to make himself the poster
child for the movement and you want to

435
00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:27,559
counteract that. But at the same
time, I know there's also been a

436
00:33:27,559 --> 00:33:31,640
lot of fossil fuel influence and lobbying, and that's all stuff we don't want

437
00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:37,839
to see as much in our politics. So it's a tricky balance. And

438
00:33:37,079 --> 00:33:43,279
what I really hope is that both
sides of the party can come to the

439
00:33:43,319 --> 00:33:47,799
table and have these conversations just as
loudly as the other one and advance their

440
00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:53,000
policy ideas. I think when a
lot of Republicans were opposed to the Inflation

441
00:33:53,039 --> 00:33:57,519
Reduction Act, which I understand both
sides of that, I would have loved

442
00:33:57,519 --> 00:34:01,599
to see them say here's our idea
and have something a little more substantial than

443
00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:06,519
just shoot down the one that the
Democrats did. And I think that can

444
00:34:06,519 --> 00:34:09,880
go vice versa. That said,
I think there has been more climate bipartisanship

445
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:15,360
than people realize. The Fiscal Responsibility
Act included permitting reform, which was an

446
00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:22,719
important thing. I hope that permitting
reform can continue this summer. The Infrastructure

447
00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:27,400
Bill, which was bipartisan, included
climate provisions. Under the Trump administration,

448
00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:30,920
there was I believe the Best Act, Use It Act, Nuclear Energy Leadership

449
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:35,079
Act, Great American Outdoors Act.
All of these incorporated climate, and all

450
00:34:35,119 --> 00:34:38,880
of these were bipartisans So yeah,
I think there's opportunities to work together.

451
00:34:39,039 --> 00:34:43,519
But I hope the conversations are a
little louder and can reach the public a

452
00:34:43,559 --> 00:34:47,679
little more because when you have both
sides contributing ideas, I think that leads

453
00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:52,360
to the best policy. When one
side ramps something through it, it can

454
00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:55,480
sometimes miss important perspectives. Yeah,
that's a good point. And it's just

455
00:34:55,519 --> 00:35:02,199
overly receptive to one particular base.
Last question, Ethan, is there something

456
00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:08,480
where is there a message to skeptical
people? Obviously I've done a lot of

457
00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:10,360
this over the course of the podcasts, and you do a lot of it

458
00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:15,079
on a daily basis, But is
there a book or something that really you

459
00:35:15,119 --> 00:35:20,079
think changes hearts and minds, A
message and argument, a fact sheet,

460
00:35:20,119 --> 00:35:24,320
whatever it is. If people want
more information and they want maybe they want

461
00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:28,880
to be persuaded, where would you
point people in? What direction would you

462
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:31,440
point people? Maybe you've done an
episode or series, where should people go?

463
00:35:34,079 --> 00:35:39,440
I would point people to the sweaty
again and perfect I'm good at the

464
00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:45,800
self plug. But seriously, I
think that what's really important is to talk

465
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:53,639
more about solutions and specifically ways in
which different styles of policy can accomplish solutions.

466
00:35:54,119 --> 00:35:59,159
We're just talking about free market environmentalism. That's not something that's talked about

467
00:35:59,199 --> 00:36:02,960
nearly enough on the national stage.
Things like that, I think are what

468
00:36:04,119 --> 00:36:08,519
can get people out of their shell. Because if you just hear there's this

469
00:36:08,599 --> 00:36:12,400
problem that's going to end the world
and the only way to solve it is

470
00:36:12,519 --> 00:36:15,800
democrat policy, then of course you're
going to lose a large chunk of the

471
00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:21,079
population. If we talk about here's
what the science says, here's what the

472
00:36:21,079 --> 00:36:24,639
science actually says, and here's what
we can do about it. And here

473
00:36:24,679 --> 00:36:30,719
are all the different policy styles that
can accomplish these different goals. And here

474
00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:32,800
are the ways that it can not
just help the climate, but help the

475
00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:37,519
economy, help your own livelihood,
lower taxes, like we can go on.

476
00:36:38,079 --> 00:36:42,880
I think that that's where we can
start to bring people in. So

477
00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:45,599
I hope that anyone listening will check
out our work. That's kind of what

478
00:36:45,599 --> 00:36:51,599
we try to do. I try
to cover things journalistically. I'll insert opinions

479
00:36:51,639 --> 00:36:54,679
when it's kind of critiquing the media
or stuff like that. But really what

480
00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:59,440
I want to see is people listen
to our stuff, say I like that

481
00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:02,119
idea, love that idea, and
then start to have those conversations. If

482
00:37:02,119 --> 00:37:07,119
we can engage more, If people, especially across the ais'll start to engage

483
00:37:07,159 --> 00:37:12,079
more and become more of a respectful
and understand where each other are coming from,

484
00:37:12,119 --> 00:37:15,280
that's where I think we can make
a lot of progress. There you

485
00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:16,920
go. Well, the op ed
we've been talking about in Real Clear Energy

486
00:37:17,079 --> 00:37:22,199
is titled climate Change Drove July's Heat
Records, but so did El Nino.

487
00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:24,719
The author, of course, is
Ethan Brown. He's a writer and commentary

488
00:37:25,079 --> 00:37:30,199
commentator with young voices. He is
also the creator and the host of you

489
00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:32,119
probably heard this a couple of times, The Sweaty Penguin. You can follow

490
00:37:32,159 --> 00:37:36,519
him on Twitter at Ethan Brown.
Five five one, Athan. Thank you

491
00:37:36,599 --> 00:37:38,239
so much for joining us. Thanks
for having me. It's a lot of

492
00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:43,360
fun. Of course, you've been
listening to another edition of The Federalist Radio

493
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:45,159
Hour. I'm Emili Jashnski, culture
editor here at The Federalist. We'll be

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00:37:45,199 --> 00:37:59,920
back soon with more. Until then, the lovers of freedom and anxious for the Fray