WEBVTT 1 00:00:30.000 --> 00:00:33.840 Welcome to mid Rats with sal from Commander Salamander and the Eagle One from Eagles 2 00:00:33.840 --> 00:00:38.600 Speak at Sea or Shore your home for a discussion of national security issues in 3 00:00:38.640 --> 00:00:45.640 all things maritime. And welcome forward everybody. I am the aforementioned foul along 4 00:00:45.679 --> 00:00:50.320 with my co host, the ever genial Eagle One from Eagles Speak. And 5 00:00:50.560 --> 00:00:55.799 thank you again for join us for another live edition of mid Rats. And 6 00:00:56.200 --> 00:00:59.880 if you are with that esteemed cohort, that is live. I always liked 7 00:01:00.000 --> 00:01:03.840 to make the altar call that if you are so inclined, if you scrolled 8 00:01:03.840 --> 00:01:07.840 to the bottom of the show page, that is where you will find the 9 00:01:07.920 --> 00:01:11.640 chat room. That's a great place during the course of the show if you 10 00:01:11.719 --> 00:01:15.480 have some observations you want to share, or even a question you would like 11 00:01:15.560 --> 00:01:19.120 for us to shape in our own little way and address towards our guest. 12 00:01:19.680 --> 00:01:23.719 We'll both be monitoring them that during the course of the show, and we'll 13 00:01:23.760 --> 00:01:27.680 be glad to bring in your thoughts to the conversation. And everybody has a 14 00:01:27.719 --> 00:01:30.680 busy life. And if you have to leave after a few minutes, because 15 00:01:30.760 --> 00:01:34.400 we do go the full hour, and you want to catch up on what 16 00:01:34.519 --> 00:01:37.680 you've missed, if you haven't already, I'd like to invite you to go 17 00:01:37.719 --> 00:01:45.079 over to iTunes or spreaker or which other podcast aggregator that you like to use. 18 00:01:45.480 --> 00:01:48.599 Go ahead and subscribe to the podcast. It won't cost you a penny, 19 00:01:48.920 --> 00:01:52.560 and that way we'll be waiting for you at a time more convenient to 20 00:01:52.599 --> 00:01:56.879 your schedule. And now let's just go ahead and roll into today's show. 21 00:01:57.480 --> 00:02:05.200 And while the world fully and the last eleven months or so has been focused 22 00:02:05.239 --> 00:02:13.000 on the war in Ukraine, the work both practical, legal and intellectual here 23 00:02:13.000 --> 00:02:16.360 in the States and even with some of our close allies to try to shape 24 00:02:16.400 --> 00:02:22.120 and build the navy more in line with the challenges we're facing. It didn't 25 00:02:22.159 --> 00:02:24.759 stop in twenty two. There's been a lot of work going on, and 26 00:02:24.840 --> 00:02:30.719 a few things happened that I think in twenty twenty three are going to start 27 00:02:30.759 --> 00:02:35.879 to bear fruit or perhaps even get a little momentum. Not insignificant items as 28 00:02:35.919 --> 00:02:40.520 well. And sometimes on mid Rats we talk about, you know, little 29 00:02:42.479 --> 00:02:46.120 narrow niche targets, because we like to do that. But today we're going 30 00:02:46.159 --> 00:02:50.240 to open up the aperture a bit, and we're going to look at some 31 00:02:50.439 --> 00:02:55.879 larger macro issues involved with what came up during twenty twenty two, what interested 32 00:02:57.000 --> 00:03:00.639 navalists should be looking forward to in twenty twenty three, keep in your scan 33 00:03:01.319 --> 00:03:06.759 and how those are going to affect things good, bad or neutral going forward. 34 00:03:07.120 --> 00:03:10.080 And we're real excited to have on today a returning guest, but not 35 00:03:10.159 --> 00:03:15.520 just any returning guest. Is We kind of mentioned it for a second at 36 00:03:15.520 --> 00:03:23.680 our thirteenth anniversary show last week, but almost thirteen years to the date from 37 00:03:23.719 --> 00:03:29.599 his visit here to Midrats. Is our guest for the full hour, Brian 38 00:03:29.719 --> 00:03:34.639 McGrath, Commander of the United States Navy, retired and managing director of the 39 00:03:34.719 --> 00:03:38.759 Ferrybridge Group LLC. Brian, thank you very much for joining us this Sunday 40 00:03:38.800 --> 00:03:46.639 for another Midrats sal It's very good to be here. One, good to 41 00:03:46.680 --> 00:03:53.080 be with you two. I thank you so much for giving me this opportunity 42 00:03:53.560 --> 00:04:00.280 thirteen years more into my adult dotage. I hope, I hope I am 43 00:04:01.319 --> 00:04:08.039 worthy of your confidence. Well, if you've been going thirteen years, and 44 00:04:08.280 --> 00:04:11.479 so have I, And I think I think my Illustric sco host has at 45 00:04:11.560 --> 00:04:15.319 least a year or two on me, so he's setting the standard there for 46 00:04:15.479 --> 00:04:18.720 us. But I think we'll will get there. Okay, you know that 47 00:04:19.040 --> 00:04:25.800 thirteen years For you young folks out there, it does go in the blink 48 00:04:25.839 --> 00:04:30.639 of an eye. And a lot of the issues that that we've talked about 49 00:04:30.720 --> 00:04:34.600 during the years, and those that have come before us have talked about things 50 00:04:34.639 --> 00:04:42.079 don't change overnight. It's it's kind of like the difference between growing annuals and 51 00:04:42.519 --> 00:04:46.920 having an orchard. That you've got to have patients, You've got to pay 52 00:04:46.920 --> 00:04:49.480 attention to the details. Every year. You have to go through a similar 53 00:04:49.519 --> 00:04:56.800 process to get to what you desire at year one. And I want to 54 00:04:56.839 --> 00:05:00.120 start today's show on a topic that we put in the pre show discussion that 55 00:05:00.160 --> 00:05:05.839 I think it tells a larger story besides the little victory check in the block 56 00:05:05.879 --> 00:05:12.319 that we have. It talks about persistence. Is you know we you know 57 00:05:12.360 --> 00:05:15.560 we talk about you've been with us for about thirteen years, but you mentioned 58 00:05:15.600 --> 00:05:21.639 in an article recently about some of the changes and titled ten that you first 59 00:05:21.920 --> 00:05:29.240 saw this need almost fourteen years ago, or three or three to four years 60 00:05:29.240 --> 00:05:32.319 before he joins us on Midraps. And you know, here we are at 61 00:05:32.800 --> 00:05:39.519 the change of a new year in twenty twenty three, and we've seen that 62 00:05:39.600 --> 00:05:44.000 change in section at eighty sixty two alpha, and I wanted it to talk 63 00:05:44.040 --> 00:05:47.399 for a little bit about because words mean things, and especially where you are 64 00:05:47.600 --> 00:05:53.759 in your line of work, words mean a lot. Talk a little bit 65 00:05:53.800 --> 00:05:59.199 if you could about that. That's that's sixteen to seventeen year old journey, 66 00:05:59.759 --> 00:06:04.279 and why people that really care about our Navy in the direction next going they 67 00:06:04.319 --> 00:06:11.240 should be not just interested, but they should be encouraged and excited about something 68 00:06:11.279 --> 00:06:16.639 that happened in Congress that affected Title ten. Sure, before I get to 69 00:06:16.680 --> 00:06:19.199 that, I wanted to think about something I want to think about thirteen years 70 00:06:19.199 --> 00:06:26.519 ago, two thousand and ten January twenty ten, and wonder allowed whether where 71 00:06:26.600 --> 00:06:34.720 the Navy is today in the context of the threats it cases, versus where 72 00:06:34.720 --> 00:06:42.360 the Navy was then in the context of the threats it pasted in two thousand 73 00:06:42.399 --> 00:06:46.600 and ten. I would say, all in all, we've declined in them 74 00:06:46.920 --> 00:06:50.319 that thirteen years and I'm just having a little bit of an anxiety attack here 75 00:06:50.360 --> 00:06:55.160 on my couch thinking about that. Wait a second. We may we might 76 00:06:55.199 --> 00:06:59.600 have been in better shape relative to the threat thirteen years ago than we are 77 00:06:59.639 --> 00:07:05.360 today, which means we had If I'm right, it means we've treaded water 78 00:07:05.519 --> 00:07:13.319 or paddled for thirteen years while our dversaries haven't. It's out off base, 79 00:07:13.399 --> 00:07:16.920 do you think now, I think, you know, we we were swimming 80 00:07:16.920 --> 00:07:20.959 in two knots against a ten knot current. I think that's that might be 81 00:07:21.160 --> 00:07:26.920 a fair, if not um humbling observation. Mark. What do you have? 82 00:07:28.040 --> 00:07:30.560 Yeah, I was gonna say, I think we're you know, we 83 00:07:30.639 --> 00:07:35.199 had we had good at ages cruisers thirteen years ago. Uh that we're still 84 00:07:35.560 --> 00:07:40.759 viable ships. We didn't have the We knew it LCS was a mess, 85 00:07:40.800 --> 00:07:43.000 but we didn't know how much of a mess it was, and we still 86 00:07:43.040 --> 00:07:46.800 don't know. I think fully how disaster set program is going to be if 87 00:07:46.800 --> 00:07:53.000 we keep counting those real combatants, unless unless somebody changes my mind. Yeah, 88 00:07:53.040 --> 00:07:55.920 I'm I'm really uh, I'm kind of with you that it is depressing 89 00:07:55.959 --> 00:07:59.800 to think about that. The the you know, we haven't really put a 90 00:07:59.839 --> 00:08:03.240 new aircraft out. The F thirty five was I guess was in in uh 91 00:08:03.759 --> 00:08:07.600 the beginning stages back then, but they were still flying the NBA teams. 92 00:08:09.160 --> 00:08:13.959 Yeah, I'm we don't have any long range carrier air really, it's yeah, 93 00:08:13.959 --> 00:08:18.079 it's not a it's not a pretty picture. Yeah, I hadn't. 94 00:08:18.079 --> 00:08:22.519 I hadn't thought about it in quite those terms before. And well, thanks, 95 00:08:22.879 --> 00:08:26.199 thanks for driving me into a depressed state here in this Sunday evening. 96 00:08:28.120 --> 00:08:33.720 Relative to title ten, uh, I was involved in the drafting of the 97 00:08:33.759 --> 00:08:39.120 two thousand and seven Maritime Strategy. UM there was a lot of work that 98 00:08:39.200 --> 00:08:48.519 went into that. It's bottom line assertion was that there was that sea power 99 00:08:48.240 --> 00:08:56.360 played a disproportionate role in the maintenance, sustainment, advancement of American security and 100 00:08:56.639 --> 00:09:01.120 prosperity. Um it. I thought it was. I thought then it was 101 00:09:01.159 --> 00:09:07.120 a good message. I think today it remains a good message. I remember, 102 00:09:07.759 --> 00:09:11.519 and this is a two thousand and six time frame. I remember walking 103 00:09:11.559 --> 00:09:18.600 around the Pentagon at my boss by SA Admiral John Morgan's urging to interact with 104 00:09:18.720 --> 00:09:24.080 the you know, with the intellectual shops of each of the services and the 105 00:09:24.120 --> 00:09:31.120 OSD staff, and I'll never forget getting together with a group of folks in 106 00:09:31.159 --> 00:09:35.039 the Air Force. I think they called themselves checkmate. I don't remember. 107 00:09:35.080 --> 00:09:39.360 Again, I'm an adult, fifty seven year old man. I think they 108 00:09:39.360 --> 00:09:45.320 called themselves checkmate. And I just remember sitting there with one of these really 109 00:09:45.360 --> 00:09:52.120 bright lieutenant colonels who said to me when I was talking about this maintenance, 110 00:09:52.200 --> 00:09:56.960 sustainment and advancement of American security and prosperity, and he looked at me, 111 00:09:58.000 --> 00:10:03.159 he said, that's you're not your mission, um, And I said, 112 00:10:03.279 --> 00:10:05.440 excuse me. He said, that's not your mission, your title time mission. 113 00:10:05.840 --> 00:10:09.480 And I don't remember the exact words, but it, you know, 114 00:10:09.519 --> 00:10:13.960 it's operations incident to combat at sea. And I'll never forget that because I 115 00:10:15.039 --> 00:10:18.759 think it was the same mission when I was commissioned. I think in in 116 00:10:20.159 --> 00:10:24.840 Rotc at some point one of my instructors would have said something about that what 117 00:10:26.039 --> 00:10:30.799 the mission of the United States Navy was, and it's very much focused on 118 00:10:31.399 --> 00:10:41.759 kinetic battle war conflict, um. And what this person was saying was these 119 00:10:41.519 --> 00:10:48.720 aspirations that you have, or these this thought that you have that the Navy 120 00:10:48.879 --> 00:10:52.879 plays this role. It's just nice to have. It's just it is a 121 00:10:54.000 --> 00:11:03.120 lesser included offense under the um marquee mission of war fight and that don't don't 122 00:11:03.240 --> 00:11:07.600 think that you can sort of raise that to some level of importance, because 123 00:11:09.000 --> 00:11:13.120 you can't. That's not your mission, um. That's not the first time 124 00:11:13.240 --> 00:11:20.080 or the only time I had someone in the Pentagon give me that approach. 125 00:11:20.240 --> 00:11:22.759 It's not your mission. It's not your mission. Tend to your knitting. 126 00:11:24.200 --> 00:11:28.159 What are you guys supposed to do? Warret se warat see operations, incident 127 00:11:28.840 --> 00:11:37.399 combat at seat. And so I think what that has done over time was 128 00:11:37.440 --> 00:11:43.919 to give people on the third deck, which is a colloquialism for OSD staff 129 00:11:43.000 --> 00:11:48.639 and for people in the other services, when they when it was convenient for 130 00:11:48.879 --> 00:11:56.639 them and when it served their ends, to bring that up to bring Hey, 131 00:11:56.720 --> 00:12:01.639 Navy, all of this extra force structure that you need, or you 132 00:12:01.759 --> 00:12:09.200 say you need because you need, because you say you need to be forward 133 00:12:09.559 --> 00:12:20.639 advancing, sustaining and protecting American security and prosperity to saw your job. Why 134 00:12:20.639 --> 00:12:24.519 are we paying for that? Why am I getting fewer tanks or fighter wings 135 00:12:24.679 --> 00:12:33.679 or infantry brigades in order to pay for something that you're not it's not your 136 00:12:33.720 --> 00:12:41.720 mission. I think, over time, through worth of a lot of people. 137 00:12:43.200 --> 00:12:50.440 U. Bj Armstrong over at the Naval Academies has has a has a 138 00:12:50.480 --> 00:12:58.120 cottage industry in this in his ability to make sure everybody recognizes that the Navy 139 00:12:58.200 --> 00:13:03.639 does a lot of things when it's not shooting at people that are really important 140 00:13:03.720 --> 00:13:09.759 to the health and welfare of this republic, and it always has UM. 141 00:13:11.080 --> 00:13:18.000 So you know, I've wrote, I've written and spoken about this blind spot 142 00:13:18.039 --> 00:13:26.919 in our national strategic makeup for a long time. And when Representative Gallagher just 143 00:13:28.200 --> 00:13:33.200 really in a in an explication of what we pay legislators to do, UM 144 00:13:35.039 --> 00:13:37.200 decided that he was going to mess with the source code of the Navy and 145 00:13:37.559 --> 00:13:46.000 proposed language that change changes Title ten, changes that mission, that makes sure 146 00:13:46.039 --> 00:13:52.000 that mission statement reflects what presidents have ordered the Navy to do for two hundred 147 00:13:52.039 --> 00:13:58.840 and forty years. UM that that the mission statement had to reflect realities. 148 00:14:00.000 --> 00:14:07.360 So I equival with you at at my Peril Salve. But when I saw 149 00:14:07.440 --> 00:14:11.840 the tagline for the show and it said a new mission, I thought to 150 00:14:11.879 --> 00:14:16.440 myself, this isn't a new mission, it's a new mission statement. But 151 00:14:16.519 --> 00:14:26.960 the mission of peacetime prosperity and security advancement is something we've done for our entire 152 00:14:26.120 --> 00:14:33.480 history, and it's high time that we're back, that we have that mission 153 00:14:33.519 --> 00:14:41.679 statement, the legal justification to sit there in endgame when the budget crunches on 154 00:14:41.799 --> 00:14:48.240 and say, no, you're wrong, we do need more capacity in order 155 00:14:48.320 --> 00:14:58.840 to pursue this mission. It's not just the amalgamated addition of war plans. 156 00:15:00.120 --> 00:15:03.960 That's not what makes NABE for structure. It is war plans, it is 157 00:15:05.080 --> 00:15:16.399 exercises, it is forward presence to enable other missions and to enable the terrence 158 00:15:16.679 --> 00:15:22.840 and the persuasion of folks who might wish to do violence. It's it is 159 00:15:24.519 --> 00:15:28.919 when you have a navy like we have, it has to be forward if 160 00:15:28.919 --> 00:15:33.639 it's going to be of any use to you. Um And I think there 161 00:15:33.720 --> 00:15:41.919 is a there is an intellectual strategic tie between this mission statement and the concept 162 00:15:41.039 --> 00:15:48.120 of a forward deployed Navy. I'll stop there for for your comments. Well, 163 00:15:48.200 --> 00:15:52.360 I personally find it ironic. I mean, grown up as a as 164 00:15:52.360 --> 00:16:00.159 a stack Bret and their motto was strangier er command motto was um pieces our 165 00:16:00.200 --> 00:16:07.240 profession that somebody in the earth for us, would question that the Navy didn't 166 00:16:07.279 --> 00:16:15.080 have the same uh deterrent mission that the that the that Sack claimed for itself. 167 00:16:15.120 --> 00:16:19.320 I mean, that's that's very odd. But in the real world, 168 00:16:19.679 --> 00:16:26.039 is this a change that that matters most to the great minds in the inside 169 00:16:26.039 --> 00:16:30.840 the belt line area? Or is it is this is this something that when 170 00:16:30.840 --> 00:16:33.039 we go out in public and we can say, look, you know, 171 00:16:33.120 --> 00:16:38.480 the region support the Navy is because our our mission now fully clearly states that 172 00:16:38.559 --> 00:16:47.559 it's it's to encourage peace in the world. I think, um, I 173 00:16:47.559 --> 00:16:53.480 would be I would be less than truthful if I didn't say this wasn't very 174 00:16:53.559 --> 00:17:00.120 much inside baseball. Um, that kind of a thing, and I would 175 00:17:00.120 --> 00:17:07.799 be definitely overstating it's impact if I were to, let's face it, I 176 00:17:07.839 --> 00:17:14.319 think three hundred and fifty five ships is the law. Also, the law 177 00:17:14.359 --> 00:17:21.720 gets ignored these especially some you know, things such as this sometimes a little 178 00:17:21.759 --> 00:17:27.640 more aspirational in nature. I don't expect that in the fiscal year twenty four 179 00:17:27.680 --> 00:17:36.039 budget drop in the spring, that we're going to see great reams of money 180 00:17:36.279 --> 00:17:41.279 raining down on the Navy because Congressman Gallagher was able to change the Title ten 181 00:17:41.359 --> 00:17:47.759 law. What I see are fewer lieutenant commanders and commanders and captains and rear 182 00:17:47.799 --> 00:17:52.680 admiral's having to go into the kind of bare knuckle brawling that is the process 183 00:17:52.720 --> 00:17:59.279 that creates a defense budget and ever have to put up with that crap again 184 00:17:59.440 --> 00:18:03.960 that it's not your mission, it is our mission. We need for structure 185 00:18:03.039 --> 00:18:07.440 that enables us to be forward. To be forward, you need to have 186 00:18:07.640 --> 00:18:10.880 a training base, you need to have a maintenance base. You now to 187 00:18:11.119 --> 00:18:17.279 need to have upkeep, and you need to have our sustainment base. All 188 00:18:17.319 --> 00:18:23.799 of that goes into a three or four ships to get one. That's sort 189 00:18:23.799 --> 00:18:27.359 of a that sort of ratio that we've all been familiar with for our whole 190 00:18:27.359 --> 00:18:34.680 lives. We now have a mission that makes it crystal clear that that's not 191 00:18:34.759 --> 00:18:44.079 just a bunch of admirals who want ships for their own sake. And if 192 00:18:44.079 --> 00:18:47.559 I can have a pushback on your pushback, though, I think I think 193 00:18:47.559 --> 00:18:56.200 we're having applied agreement on the same premise. But um, is it a 194 00:18:56.200 --> 00:18:57.839 new mission or is it not? I guess it depends. And this is 195 00:18:57.839 --> 00:19:03.240 a subject you and I have talked about for at least a decade, maybe 196 00:19:03.279 --> 00:19:07.160 not thirteen years, but at least a decade. To you and me. 197 00:19:07.599 --> 00:19:14.799 Know, when we talk to our fellow people in the maritime and the naval 198 00:19:14.839 --> 00:19:22.759 sphere, in some ways I think we are fish trying to talk about water. 199 00:19:22.839 --> 00:19:29.440 I understand certain fundamentals. You understand certain fundamentals, and we don't feel 200 00:19:29.440 --> 00:19:33.119 the need to talk about them too much to each other. However, let's 201 00:19:33.119 --> 00:19:40.599 go back to your Air Force Lieutenant colonel's comments. He doesn't live in water, 202 00:19:40.759 --> 00:19:44.359 he lives in air, so you know he doesn't know what we're talking 203 00:19:44.400 --> 00:19:48.960 about. And so to him, in one of the efforts you made, 204 00:19:48.960 --> 00:19:52.400 and I don't know if you wrote about it or you tweet about it again, 205 00:19:52.599 --> 00:19:56.640 you pointed everybody to the series of speeches you made a few years ago 206 00:19:56.680 --> 00:20:03.119 at the Rotary Club. Your road show is it is new to some people, 207 00:20:03.359 --> 00:20:07.480 and especially people who have access to levers of power, whose expertise might 208 00:20:07.519 --> 00:20:15.839 be in economics, or trial law or just politics. They don't appreciate what 209 00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:18.480 we assume to be an old mission, and a lot of it has to 210 00:20:18.519 --> 00:20:25.119 be. It goes back to the world we live in right now, just 211 00:20:25.160 --> 00:20:29.680 in the last few years, it's slipping out of living memory. But when 212 00:20:29.720 --> 00:20:37.279 you consider the almost everybody are a post World War two generation. Is the 213 00:20:37.319 --> 00:20:42.640 globe in the world that the US Navy built after World War Two is assumed 214 00:20:42.680 --> 00:20:48.279 to be the normal, and the whole global system of trade and economics and 215 00:20:48.400 --> 00:20:56.000 access to resources was built upon that new reality that now is, if not 216 00:20:56.279 --> 00:21:00.799 under threat, it has a different dynamic. So you know, when we 217 00:21:00.480 --> 00:21:07.000 make a change to title ten that just looks like stating the obvious. Is 218 00:21:07.000 --> 00:21:11.640 that a byproduct of I don't want to use the phrase arrogance, but just 219 00:21:11.759 --> 00:21:18.640 maybe benign entitlement and assumptions of a reality? And there are there other things 220 00:21:18.720 --> 00:21:26.599 about maritime power that may need to be coified in other ways to force the 221 00:21:26.640 --> 00:21:30.640 issue. I like what you said. So now we have Lieugenet, commanders, 222 00:21:30.920 --> 00:21:37.480 commanders, captains, admiral's own up. Don't have to run around explaining 223 00:21:37.519 --> 00:21:42.759 to people what was what we always assumed to be in a natural state. 224 00:21:44.519 --> 00:21:48.440 Is this kind of a process that we're looking at that maybe we just need 225 00:21:48.480 --> 00:21:52.000 to codify, like we did here, things that we assume everybody who knows, 226 00:21:52.319 --> 00:21:59.480 but they don't because they're not fish. Well. When I think about 227 00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:04.359 this situation through that context and through that lens that you discussed, than I 228 00:22:04.400 --> 00:22:08.319 would say to you then I would agree it is new. It is new 229 00:22:08.359 --> 00:22:21.759 on a lot of people. Um. The codification of what that means um, 230 00:22:21.799 --> 00:22:25.880 I think I would have to, I think without knowing the specifics, 231 00:22:25.920 --> 00:22:27.799 like what other things would become because now we have a mission, Now we 232 00:22:27.799 --> 00:22:30.960 have career interpret clive ships. I think we had you know, we have 233 00:22:30.960 --> 00:22:37.279 a number of aircraft carriers. Um. The Marine Corps has in its mission. 234 00:22:37.720 --> 00:22:45.400 UM, I guess three infantry infantry divisions. You know they've got their 235 00:22:45.039 --> 00:22:51.759 size is set in law. UM. Maybe maybe more codification is required in 236 00:22:51.880 --> 00:22:59.440 order to um, to remind people or to jar people into a better sense 237 00:22:59.480 --> 00:23:06.599 of acquire m. You know you mentioned that that little speaking tour I did, 238 00:23:06.640 --> 00:23:11.799 and I traveled around in twenty sixteen, twenty seventeen to every county in 239 00:23:11.839 --> 00:23:17.240 the state of Maryland, and I spoke in the county seat at the at 240 00:23:17.279 --> 00:23:26.319 the Rotary Club there, and it was just all about trying to explain what 241 00:23:26.480 --> 00:23:33.119 the Navy was doing for their country. And it really was quite i opening. 242 00:23:34.119 --> 00:23:40.039 The degree to which what I said opened eyes. People just didn't know. 243 00:23:40.200 --> 00:23:42.720 They didn't realize, they didn't get it. They didn't they did not 244 00:23:42.880 --> 00:23:48.119 realize the degree to which our Navy had slipped, the degree to which its 245 00:23:48.160 --> 00:23:53.359 readiness had slipped, the degree how small it had gotten. Um. You 246 00:23:53.400 --> 00:23:57.400 know I would I talked to people way out in western Maryland one night in 247 00:23:57.519 --> 00:24:03.680 January. It was three degrees below zero out there about the Navy, and 248 00:24:03.400 --> 00:24:08.799 it was such a good group of people, great Americans, business people in 249 00:24:08.839 --> 00:24:12.519 their in their county. It was Garrett County, I think it was, 250 00:24:14.839 --> 00:24:18.400 and I was in and they were just so taken aback at the paint the 251 00:24:18.440 --> 00:24:23.039 picture I painted. And I don't think I painted an unrealistic paint picture. 252 00:24:23.160 --> 00:24:26.920 I didn't, you know. I wasn't gloom and doom. I was mostly 253 00:24:27.240 --> 00:24:33.519 we need to do better because we have serious threats. UM. So maybe 254 00:24:33.680 --> 00:24:40.160 additional codification, maybe additional as certainly, additional storytelling, additional narrative development, 255 00:24:40.200 --> 00:24:49.279 additional UM, additional people out there talking about sea power and it's and it's 256 00:24:49.599 --> 00:24:57.440 impact UM on our steering prosperity. Yeah, it's required. Yeah. I 257 00:24:57.759 --> 00:25:03.640 always cautioned against more codification because it ties your hands in a lot of ways. 258 00:25:03.680 --> 00:25:07.319 And although every now and then Congress says something right, so like I 259 00:25:07.319 --> 00:25:12.400 think it's codified that we're supposed to have eleven carriers, and that makes some 260 00:25:12.440 --> 00:25:15.319 sense to me that somebody the Navy said, look, we just can't fall 261 00:25:15.359 --> 00:25:19.319 below this or we're going to get in trouble. But that also reminds me 262 00:25:19.359 --> 00:25:23.759 that the Marine Corps is making an active push to get a whole bunch of 263 00:25:25.319 --> 00:25:30.079 new little ships to not even that little, but new ships to move Marine 264 00:25:30.079 --> 00:25:34.640 Corps people around, manned by Navy people. And I'm looking at this their 265 00:25:34.720 --> 00:25:38.880 numbers thirty eight, Navy numbers eighteen and thinking is that going to count against? 266 00:25:38.920 --> 00:25:42.720 Are those real worships? And the answer is apparently not. But let's 267 00:25:42.759 --> 00:25:45.279 talk about that a little bit about these laws. No, No, those 268 00:25:45.279 --> 00:25:52.720 worships, those lawyer amphibious warships will count. They will count in the ship 269 00:25:52.799 --> 00:25:56.440 count. There is no there is no reason that they would not count. 270 00:26:02.000 --> 00:26:06.640 I think the nature of their mission this to the light amphibious warfare ship he's 271 00:26:06.680 --> 00:26:14.359 talking about. And I wrote about this last week in Defense One about my 272 00:26:15.400 --> 00:26:22.720 misgivings with this ship. It all boils down to this sense that I have 273 00:26:22.920 --> 00:26:29.519 that what the Marines want to do with expeditionary advanced based operations is something I 274 00:26:29.720 --> 00:26:36.480 really, really really want them to be able to do, and that is 275 00:26:37.039 --> 00:26:48.960 kill ships from the shore and kill airplanes from the shore durned combat. I 276 00:26:48.000 --> 00:26:52.559 really would love for them to be able to do those things. In order 277 00:26:52.599 --> 00:26:57.680 for them to do those things, those those kinetic outposts need to have missiles 278 00:26:57.720 --> 00:27:03.359 and parts and food and water and grease and all of the things that go 279 00:27:03.400 --> 00:27:10.599 into providing that sort of power, and they have. The Marines have come 280 00:27:10.680 --> 00:27:17.720 up with this this light amphibious worship as a means for the logistics support of 281 00:27:17.759 --> 00:27:22.039 those ea bos among other things, but that logistics support for e abos is 282 00:27:22.119 --> 00:27:30.440 chief among them. And I keep coming back to the sense that if this 283 00:27:30.799 --> 00:27:37.240 machine is to do its job how they have spect it is insufficient to the 284 00:27:37.319 --> 00:27:47.480 task. It is too slow, and it is it has no no armament, 285 00:27:47.519 --> 00:27:51.759 no weaponry. And I know everybody who's who looks at these things today, 286 00:27:51.839 --> 00:27:53.880 that's just McGrath trying to create, you know, pocket battleships. Again. 287 00:27:55.279 --> 00:27:59.599 Now, I don't like the idea of seventy five marines and forty sailors 288 00:28:00.319 --> 00:28:04.200 on a ship that has essentially a surface search raider, a twenty five millimeter 289 00:28:04.359 --> 00:28:11.200 gun and a fifty caliber machine gun. That's not oh excuse me, and 290 00:28:11.319 --> 00:28:22.079 that and that ship providing logistics support to important Marine Corps missions while the shooting 291 00:28:22.319 --> 00:28:29.240 is happening. Um And and that article I wrote raised some some comments that 292 00:28:29.599 --> 00:28:37.400 Marine Corps Combat Development Center Commanding General Lieutenant General Heckel brought up where he basically 293 00:28:37.440 --> 00:28:41.640 was indicating that he that the ships weren't going to be They're going to go 294 00:28:41.720 --> 00:28:45.559 bed down when the shooting starts. They're going to go go hide when the 295 00:28:45.599 --> 00:28:51.279 shooting starts, and um, it struck me as a real disconnect and that 296 00:28:51.400 --> 00:28:57.880 and that there was a a real storytelling problem here that the Marine Corps has 297 00:28:57.920 --> 00:29:06.359 with this with the ship and the fact that the latest budget of twenty three 298 00:29:06.359 --> 00:29:11.240 budget put the ship off for two years to create some decision space with something 299 00:29:11.279 --> 00:29:15.519 I was writing about as a positive thing. Not everything has to be, 300 00:29:15.400 --> 00:29:21.160 not everything has to be tricked out. Not everything has to be, you 301 00:29:21.200 --> 00:29:29.240 know, a proper warship. If your job is to keep combat readiness at 302 00:29:29.240 --> 00:29:36.759 a high level on a distributed Marine Corps basis all around East Jesus in the 303 00:29:36.799 --> 00:29:41.799 south west Pacific, I personally would like that ship to be more capable, 304 00:29:42.920 --> 00:29:49.400 specifically faster and have somewhat more of a C five eye suite than it has 305 00:29:49.440 --> 00:29:56.400 today. Faster than fourteen to sixteen knots I don't think is an unreasonable goal. 306 00:29:57.160 --> 00:30:03.000 Faster or at more C five bias R and T than a surfer search 307 00:30:03.119 --> 00:30:07.000 radar, twenty five millimeter chain gun and a fifty colt machine gun. I 308 00:30:07.000 --> 00:30:14.400 don't think that's a you know, a heavy lift over I'm glad you brought 309 00:30:14.440 --> 00:30:17.640 that up, because when I was reading that article, I had stopped. 310 00:30:18.519 --> 00:30:21.319 I had to go back. It's like, what did I just read? 311 00:30:21.400 --> 00:30:25.519 Go back, and maybe you can help us because because you work in these 312 00:30:25.680 --> 00:30:30.200 environs. Thankfully, probably more than ninety eight point seven percent of people in 313 00:30:30.200 --> 00:30:36.000 this area is and I'll quote that from the deputy commander for the Combat Development 314 00:30:36.039 --> 00:30:44.680 Integration. He said, this is from the article as war nears, the 315 00:30:44.759 --> 00:30:48.279 new amphibious ship goes into hiding, it goes into bed downstone. Where nowhere 316 00:30:48.359 --> 00:30:55.799 do we envision the light amphibious the law out transiting the sea lanes in the 317 00:30:55.839 --> 00:31:00.880 middle of a kinetic fight. Unquote. I'm sorry, um, I don't 318 00:31:00.920 --> 00:31:04.240 think you're able to have a training time out in the middle of war if 319 00:31:04.279 --> 00:31:10.559 you have marines on islands that are relying on something in peace at war. 320 00:31:10.880 --> 00:31:15.480 I don't see a combatant commander going I'm sorry, shipmate, we we can't 321 00:31:15.759 --> 00:31:18.759 we got to hide this thing. We can't send It's just not going to 322 00:31:18.839 --> 00:31:25.200 happen that way. And we've seen this before when there's maybe eight or nine 323 00:31:25.279 --> 00:31:30.880 years ago when some of the realities of LCS came through. I believe it 324 00:31:30.960 --> 00:31:33.759 was the cno at the Times has said, well, you know, lcs 325 00:31:33.839 --> 00:31:37.440 can can run away real fast, and we'll pull it out because we're not 326 00:31:37.480 --> 00:31:41.640 going to have it as a high fights something of that manner. And it 327 00:31:42.519 --> 00:31:48.160 turns back to a mindset where we both like to use the term the green 328 00:31:48.279 --> 00:31:53.559 eye shade considerations, because in peacetime, when you're looking at budgets, you 329 00:31:53.559 --> 00:31:59.160 can understand why you would want to, you know, save ten cents so 330 00:31:59.240 --> 00:32:04.640 you can have ten units as opposed to eight units. Is it really just 331 00:32:04.759 --> 00:32:12.039 the green eye shade getting the majority vote in these decisions, or is there 332 00:32:12.079 --> 00:32:19.000 a real intellectual disconnect which I would find shocking about what the realities of a 333 00:32:19.079 --> 00:32:23.759 large Western Pacific war at sea would actually look like. I don't think there's 334 00:32:23.759 --> 00:32:30.759 going to be any hiding west of Wake. So I have been dubious about 335 00:32:30.880 --> 00:32:37.599 law for a while now. I first ran into it, I think when 336 00:32:37.640 --> 00:32:42.799 the en General Burger put his his commanders in tent out when he took a 337 00:32:42.880 --> 00:32:47.000 process in the summer of twenty nineteen. I was intrigued. Like most of 338 00:32:47.000 --> 00:32:51.640 America who was paying attention, I was intrigued because there I thought there was 339 00:32:51.720 --> 00:33:00.799 some interesting thinking going on I found myself thinking where are they going to get 340 00:33:00.839 --> 00:33:06.319 the money. Then then I read on in general Burger's commanders intent and I 341 00:33:06.440 --> 00:33:10.119 talked and I saw him talking about retiring legacy platforms, and that got my 342 00:33:10.160 --> 00:33:15.880 spider senses tingling a little bit, um because what we have seen, and 343 00:33:16.559 --> 00:33:23.039 obviously there isn't a one to one relationship here, but we have lost the 344 00:33:23.079 --> 00:33:32.599 Marine Corps has has come down from its theological u connection with thirty eight amphibs 345 00:33:34.000 --> 00:33:40.680 to thirty one amphibs, which by that I mean the LHD lh LSD LPG 346 00:33:40.799 --> 00:33:47.000 seventeen versions. Um, they've come down to that almost magically, as they 347 00:33:47.119 --> 00:33:53.119 have come up with this thirty you know this three dozen laws. So it 348 00:33:53.160 --> 00:34:01.200 seems to me like they are trying to mum cannibalize uh proper amphibious force structure 349 00:34:01.279 --> 00:34:06.680 for this um this capability. And I thought to myself, well, if 350 00:34:06.680 --> 00:34:12.960 this capability has an impact on the war fight and does in fact do what 351 00:34:13.079 --> 00:34:15.480 it sounds like it'll do, maybe it's worthwhile. But what As I keep 352 00:34:16.199 --> 00:34:22.840 pulling on this string, I found myself thinking, no, it doesn't look 353 00:34:22.840 --> 00:34:28.639 like this ship is going to be a ship that can uh can properly operate 354 00:34:28.679 --> 00:34:35.000 in a contested environment. UM. And two things really surprised me and and 355 00:34:35.000 --> 00:34:38.320 and rolled And when they rolled out, they made me realize, Okay, 356 00:34:38.480 --> 00:34:43.159 I think I think I am onto something here. UM. One was this 357 00:34:43.199 --> 00:34:49.800 set of remarks that General Hecke made last fall that I um that I glommed 358 00:34:49.840 --> 00:34:53.840 onto and I thought, oh my goodness, this is this is all about, 359 00:34:53.920 --> 00:34:58.400 how do we keep this at one hundred and fifty million dollars or less 360 00:34:58.800 --> 00:35:05.039 per copy? It's a it was a desire to UH to make this risk 361 00:35:05.119 --> 00:35:10.880 worthy platform into something that they could afford to buy in significant enough numbers that 362 00:35:10.960 --> 00:35:17.800 they could use it with their marine electoral regiments. UM. The problem still 363 00:35:17.800 --> 00:35:22.079 comes back to the use case. It still comes back to UM. What 364 00:35:22.159 --> 00:35:30.679 they wish to do with the ea BOS requires a logistic ship that is more 365 00:35:30.719 --> 00:35:35.760 capable than this. And when General Heckel said, UM, uh that that 366 00:35:36.159 --> 00:35:38.239 you know this is UH it's going to bed that down. It's not going 367 00:35:38.280 --> 00:35:42.119 to Yes, I get it. This isn't going to this. This ship 368 00:35:42.199 --> 00:35:46.079 isn't gonna puts around at fourteen knots in the middle of a in the middle 369 00:35:46.159 --> 00:35:53.679 of a wide open c for the Chinese surveillance environment to find and kill. 370 00:35:53.840 --> 00:35:59.760 I get it. Um, I want to under I want to give general 371 00:36:00.039 --> 00:36:04.000 Call the benefit of the doubt on this and not make it sound like McGrath 372 00:36:04.119 --> 00:36:06.719 knows everything and Heckle knows not. That's not it. Heckle is a smart 373 00:36:06.760 --> 00:36:10.559 guy. Heckle has good ideas. But I think when you think about how 374 00:36:10.599 --> 00:36:15.320 the ship is going to do what it's supposed to do, which is to 375 00:36:15.400 --> 00:36:23.280 provide logistics under fire too incredibly important capabilities, it has to be more than 376 00:36:23.320 --> 00:36:30.280 it is. Um. I just don't I don't understand. I don't understand 377 00:36:30.400 --> 00:36:36.760 why he said, why he said what he did, But perhaps they'll respond, 378 00:36:38.039 --> 00:36:40.000 Yeah, I don't think I would count on that. The uh. 379 00:36:40.920 --> 00:36:43.840 I mean, I'm said, they're looking to go, well, what about 380 00:36:43.840 --> 00:36:46.599 the EPFs. They they're they're everything you're looking for, and they go fast 381 00:36:46.800 --> 00:36:52.639 when you need them to. And uh and they get you know, they 382 00:36:52.679 --> 00:36:55.760 get everything you want for legs and all the rest of it. And they 383 00:36:55.920 --> 00:37:00.320 pulled more and they've got more space. I mean, I started doing all 384 00:37:00.400 --> 00:37:02.800 kinds of calculations and I can't figure out other than the fact that they occasionally 385 00:37:02.800 --> 00:37:07.599 crack and may just fall apart. But I don't understand why the EPF isn't 386 00:37:07.639 --> 00:37:12.119 sufficient, and I also don't I really hate the idea if we can again 387 00:37:12.199 --> 00:37:14.679 we can, we'll cut down to thirty one big am FIBs and we want 388 00:37:15.000 --> 00:37:16.519 thirty eight little ones. And all of a sudden, you've got a seventy 389 00:37:17.039 --> 00:37:21.599 four part part of your navy, that is that is am FIBs. Not 390 00:37:21.719 --> 00:37:27.400 so bad if you have if you have the other numbers in combatants that actually 391 00:37:27.480 --> 00:37:32.280 do blue water or inshore fighting. But my goodness is uh, I mean 392 00:37:32.280 --> 00:37:35.559 the other option as far as I was concerned, as the Marines that want 393 00:37:35.599 --> 00:37:40.079 to play Hasbella and there and there see eight o ones shooting up the Israeli 394 00:37:40.159 --> 00:37:44.760 navy. Uh, you know that's then let's you know, I'm not sure 395 00:37:44.760 --> 00:37:50.679 they need anything more complicated than truck floated with the right gear and uh maybe 396 00:37:50.679 --> 00:37:54.480 and little tiny detachments everywhere, so you diversified your and spread your force round. 397 00:37:54.519 --> 00:37:59.800 But year as you point out there they've got this combat regiment thing going. 398 00:38:00.199 --> 00:38:05.719 I'm not quite clear on all the concepts. Well, they they m 399 00:38:06.440 --> 00:38:08.639 one of the things they in their in their defense they've talked about one of 400 00:38:08.639 --> 00:38:14.079 the ways that this vessel. The light into this warship will be survivable is 401 00:38:14.119 --> 00:38:22.119 that it will have a low signature um Um. I think you can probably 402 00:38:22.159 --> 00:38:28.800 design in signature control again, every dollar, every every you know, decibel 403 00:38:28.840 --> 00:38:34.679 of signature control, whether it's acoustic or radar return or whatever. Um. 404 00:38:34.719 --> 00:38:40.360 It's expensive. Signature control is an expensive proposition, so you immediately then begin 405 00:38:40.440 --> 00:38:49.159 to to eat away at your desire of a cheap, expendable risk worth of 406 00:38:49.159 --> 00:38:54.880 these ships. Um. If this ship were being built for peacetime operations, 407 00:38:57.000 --> 00:39:01.159 uh, I'd say it's a it's a reason, it's a reasonable desire, 408 00:39:01.360 --> 00:39:07.480 and or why couldn't we use army lcms that do pretty much the same thing. 409 00:39:08.519 --> 00:39:13.039 The Army's got a ton of lcms, I think, But at the 410 00:39:13.199 --> 00:39:15.960 end of the day, I just think there's a mismatch. I want. 411 00:39:15.440 --> 00:39:22.079 I want the Marines to do shore based anti ship cruise missile firing, and 412 00:39:22.559 --> 00:39:25.039 integrated air and missile defense. I think that would add a lot to the 413 00:39:25.079 --> 00:39:30.000 war fighting posture in the Western Pacific. I want them to be able to 414 00:39:30.039 --> 00:39:36.559 do that with confidence and to be able to move around quickly. Both the 415 00:39:37.719 --> 00:39:44.360 war fighting capability itself and the logistics associated with that undertaking. I want all 416 00:39:44.360 --> 00:39:47.800 of those things to happen. I just don't think that the logistic side of 417 00:39:47.840 --> 00:39:52.320 this has been thought through as well as it should, and that this particular 418 00:39:52.360 --> 00:39:59.039 ship is under spectful the role they wanted to have number one and it and 419 00:39:59.159 --> 00:40:06.519 because eight up seven big antibs. It bothers me because the things that antibs 420 00:40:06.559 --> 00:40:13.480 were doing and can do remain really important to this Navy, to the Marine 421 00:40:13.519 --> 00:40:19.840 Corps, and to the nation. One of the things I mentioned in this 422 00:40:19.920 --> 00:40:25.280 article is that the fact that we have these especially the LPG seventeens, floating 423 00:40:25.320 --> 00:40:31.119 around without any offensive missiles on them, without SM six, without t lamp 424 00:40:31.119 --> 00:40:37.159 block five, without any ability to really kill other ships or perform land attack 425 00:40:37.239 --> 00:40:40.880 missions. That's a sin. That's a sin we can solve. We could 426 00:40:40.920 --> 00:40:46.519 go we could put box launchers on, we could in their u cno availabilities, 427 00:40:46.559 --> 00:40:53.119 we could put the LS launchers in them. We could solve that problem. 428 00:40:53.679 --> 00:41:01.239 But you know this, this discussion of how that that the big antibs 429 00:41:01.280 --> 00:41:08.360 are so are so vulnerable that we need to have these small antibs, we 430 00:41:08.400 --> 00:41:13.920 need to build them in numbers. But then I read mac Fitic saying we're 431 00:41:13.960 --> 00:41:16.239 not going to use them when they're vulnerable, and none of this story, 432 00:41:16.920 --> 00:41:22.920 it doesn't add up for me. And I I wrote this articles hoping that 433 00:41:22.159 --> 00:41:27.800 I can put some pressure on decision makers to ask inconvenient questions of the Navy 434 00:41:27.840 --> 00:41:30.880 and of the Marine corps um to determine, you know, what exactly do 435 00:41:30.920 --> 00:41:35.639 they want to do with this thing, and what exactly our EABO is going 436 00:41:35.719 --> 00:41:38.960 to do? Um Because I thought I knew what they were going to do, 437 00:41:39.000 --> 00:41:42.920 and I thought I thought, and I thought I was very much in 438 00:41:42.960 --> 00:41:49.360 favor of that. I'm not so sure anymore. Yeah, asking questions, 439 00:41:49.400 --> 00:41:53.960 I mean, just like you did the questions and concerns that you outlined about 440 00:41:55.239 --> 00:42:00.840 the law. That comes from a perspective of somebody who is a not just 441 00:42:00.960 --> 00:42:07.880 a career naval officer but since then has been soaking in these issues for a 442 00:42:07.920 --> 00:42:13.719 long time. And to ask informed questions requires knowledge. And this sounds like 443 00:42:13.719 --> 00:42:15.280 a political question, but it's really not. But I want to circle back. 444 00:42:15.320 --> 00:42:17.599 You know, we talked about the changes to Title ten. That's the 445 00:42:17.679 --> 00:42:22.239 law. Things like that have got to go through. Congress has to have 446 00:42:22.360 --> 00:42:27.880 good staff and you know, many kudos in the world to Representative Mike Gallagher, 447 00:42:28.280 --> 00:42:35.440 Republican and Wisconsin COMMA. However, he was part of a bipartisan dynamic 448 00:42:35.559 --> 00:42:44.159 duo with Representative Elaine Lauria, Democrat of Virginia, and whether you're put politics 449 00:42:44.159 --> 00:42:50.159 to the side if you're concerned with navalist issues. Representative Lauria she was. 450 00:42:50.599 --> 00:42:52.480 She lost her election in the fall, so she won't be coming back. 451 00:42:53.320 --> 00:42:58.639 And for those that have watched her or have had an opportunity to talk to 452 00:42:58.679 --> 00:43:06.679 her, preferably both very knowledgeable and also has the right attitude willing to sharp 453 00:43:07.440 --> 00:43:13.639 informed questions that you can't wiggle out, and you try to wiggle out, 454 00:43:13.800 --> 00:43:19.400 you're going to squish you back. Representative gallaghries get it that. So regardless 455 00:43:19.400 --> 00:43:22.840 of what political party they may be associated with, there's been a change in 456 00:43:25.760 --> 00:43:29.920 power the leading party in the House of Representative, which is going to have 457 00:43:30.000 --> 00:43:35.960 some changes in that landscape. But there also have been the land Lauria will 458 00:43:36.000 --> 00:43:39.920 not be in Congress, but there have been some people with military backgrounds who 459 00:43:39.960 --> 00:43:45.400 are coming into Congress, and I think that's that that type of knowledge base 460 00:43:45.800 --> 00:43:50.159 and that type of personality is what a lot of us are looking at to 461 00:43:50.320 --> 00:43:54.320 ask the questions like you asked but to do that with somebody who has congressional 462 00:43:54.320 --> 00:44:00.079 power and influence. For the listeners here, just just real fast with the 463 00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:06.280 new Congress, or there's some new names out there that if you don't have 464 00:44:06.360 --> 00:44:09.480 knowledge of, at least pique your interest, that people can track on to 465 00:44:09.679 --> 00:44:15.880 might be able to help us shape the navy we need by doing what Gallagher 466 00:44:15.920 --> 00:44:22.679 and Lauria had done over the last few years. I don't know, I 467 00:44:22.760 --> 00:44:34.039 honestly don't know. I do know that sea power is in a lesser position 468 00:44:34.119 --> 00:44:39.079 than it was in the last Congress. Elaine Lauria was in fact a national 469 00:44:39.159 --> 00:44:46.599 asset. She she grabbed a row, grabbed an oar and road when it 470 00:44:46.639 --> 00:44:55.239 came to sea power, and she she's sometimes asked in convenient questions and caused 471 00:44:57.440 --> 00:45:02.519 senior people some embarrassment. Um, but she was always growing in the right 472 00:45:02.599 --> 00:45:10.519 direction. She's almost irreplaceable. I don't know who in her caucus will step 473 00:45:10.639 --> 00:45:14.960 up and we'll sell that hole, or even if they consider it a hole. 474 00:45:15.239 --> 00:45:22.079 Representative Gallagher did not get the chairmanship of the Seapower Committee, but he 475 00:45:22.159 --> 00:45:28.079 did get a chairmanship of a special Select committee on China, which is going 476 00:45:28.119 --> 00:45:32.320 to be a huge, huge, undertaking and a real feather in his cap. 477 00:45:34.360 --> 00:45:38.119 I just hope that he is able to stay on the sea power beat 478 00:45:39.920 --> 00:45:46.360 in the face of what that new responsibility will bring to him in terms of 479 00:45:46.360 --> 00:45:52.760 workload, because he's going to be a busy, busy fellow one. I 480 00:45:52.800 --> 00:45:55.599 don't think that Lane Lurry is gone. I think she'll I think she'll be 481 00:45:55.880 --> 00:46:00.440 in and around town for a while, and I think she ad back someday. 482 00:46:01.320 --> 00:46:10.760 UM. I think the two thousand twenty three NBAA created a commission on 483 00:46:10.760 --> 00:46:20.199 the Future of the US Navy in which the there's eight people can be eight 484 00:46:20.239 --> 00:46:23.519 members can be appointed to the committee. Um, it's by the leadership of 485 00:46:23.599 --> 00:46:28.599 the House and Senate. I would be shocked. I would be absolutely shocked 486 00:46:28.599 --> 00:46:34.360 if you're laying Luria isn't the number one draft pick of the Democrats in the 487 00:46:34.840 --> 00:46:37.320 House and the Senate to be on that committee. So I think she'll have 488 00:46:37.400 --> 00:46:44.719 a voice and she'll be she'll be influential for the term of that commission, 489 00:46:44.719 --> 00:46:50.880 which I think is two years. One of the other things that we've talked 490 00:46:50.880 --> 00:46:54.920 about here a lot in the Luria and others have talked about is the is 491 00:46:54.960 --> 00:47:01.039 the inability of our shipyards seemed to keep up with the demand that we're even 492 00:47:01.039 --> 00:47:06.440 the limited demand we've been putting on them. In the speech that Second n 493 00:47:06.519 --> 00:47:12.239 have delivered to Surface Navy Association, he had an interesting comment, he said, 494 00:47:12.519 --> 00:47:15.519 and all the other stuff was pretty interesting too, But he said, 495 00:47:15.199 --> 00:47:22.440 we are looking to create significant shipyard capacity in the Pacific. Do you have 496 00:47:22.480 --> 00:47:27.719 any idea where that came from? Is he talking about on our Pacific coast? 497 00:47:28.559 --> 00:47:34.039 One of the mean, Guam's already got some shipyard capability. But and 498 00:47:34.159 --> 00:47:37.360 let's talk about this shipyard capability. But I was struck by that particular comment. 499 00:47:38.960 --> 00:47:43.719 I don't I don't know. I don't know. I heard the same 500 00:47:43.760 --> 00:47:45.559 comment. I don't know what he has planned. I'm not read into it, 501 00:47:45.679 --> 00:47:51.840 so I can't say. One of the one of the trends that I'm 502 00:47:51.840 --> 00:47:55.079 identifying. And when I talked to my peep, to my clients, and 503 00:47:55.119 --> 00:47:58.920 I talk to people who listen to me, one of the trends that I'm 504 00:47:59.079 --> 00:48:07.480 detecting is a more aggressive prodding of the industrial base by Navy leadership. And 505 00:48:07.519 --> 00:48:12.679 I saw this at the end of last year. I tracked you, I 506 00:48:12.760 --> 00:48:16.519 see went, I see cno traveling. I said, see SECNAV traveling and 507 00:48:16.519 --> 00:48:21.719 then it was it was, you know, pretty obvious at Search Navy Association, 508 00:48:22.840 --> 00:48:28.679 Am McConnell called out the Defense Industrial Base. Checkn have had some questions 509 00:48:28.679 --> 00:48:31.880 for this defense industrial base. UM. I'm writing about this, and I 510 00:48:31.920 --> 00:48:36.960 have an article that'll come out sometime in the first week of February. But 511 00:48:37.000 --> 00:48:39.639 the bottom line here is, um. There was there was a line that 512 00:48:39.760 --> 00:48:45.239 the CEO of Lockheed Martin used at the Reagan Forum and the first week of 513 00:48:45.320 --> 00:48:51.199 December out in Sine Valley, California, and I'm building this article around this 514 00:48:51.280 --> 00:48:57.880 line he used, and the line went something like this, the United States 515 00:48:57.880 --> 00:49:08.400 Defense Industrial Base is scoped for efficient peacetime production. That may not that may 516 00:49:08.440 --> 00:49:15.599 not sound like insightful insight to anybody else, but to me, those fourteen 517 00:49:15.639 --> 00:49:22.960 words perfectly encapsulated the problem we have right now, and that is we are 518 00:49:23.119 --> 00:49:29.119 not at war with Russia, but we are sure as hell in war with 519 00:49:29.280 --> 00:49:34.719 Russia. We are not at war with China, but we are preparing for 520 00:49:35.039 --> 00:49:38.320 war with China, and we are doing so with an industrial base that is 521 00:49:38.400 --> 00:49:47.719 chugging along like it's two thousand and eight. And so when admir Coudell goes 522 00:49:47.800 --> 00:49:52.480 after the Defense Industrial Base, and when others go after the Defense Industrial base, 523 00:49:52.559 --> 00:50:00.599 I think we have to realize that they have for years been acclimatized to 524 00:50:00.000 --> 00:50:09.440 efficiently providing exactly what the federal government was asking for, and then came COVID 525 00:50:12.880 --> 00:50:15.599 I, and I don't think we can. I don't think we can just 526 00:50:15.639 --> 00:50:20.719 sort of dismiss out of hand the workforce issues they had, the supply chain 527 00:50:20.760 --> 00:50:24.960 issues they had. Hell, I couldn't get toilet paper. You think there 528 00:50:25.000 --> 00:50:34.480 would be plenty of that available to Americans let alone, Let alone sophisticated parts 529 00:50:34.679 --> 00:50:38.960 and raw materials to make radar screens and all of the things that we really 530 00:50:39.039 --> 00:50:47.199 need to make our defense industrial base go. We couldn't. The whole system 531 00:50:47.400 --> 00:50:52.440 slowed down. So anybody that goes around, you know, yelling at the 532 00:50:52.480 --> 00:50:55.760 Defense Industrial Base to do more, do more, do more, I'm not 533 00:50:55.760 --> 00:51:00.280 gonna. I don't accept your excuses. They're not excuses. It's just the 534 00:51:00.320 --> 00:51:05.679 way it is right now. And it's partially because there was never any margin 535 00:51:05.800 --> 00:51:10.320 in this system to begin with. They were they were building every day to 536 00:51:10.639 --> 00:51:20.800 efficient peacetime requirements. That doesn't cut it anymore. I was kind of laughing 537 00:51:20.840 --> 00:51:23.480 as you're saying at because we can both trace back to where this came from. 538 00:51:23.920 --> 00:51:27.159 You know, people say, why do you have an NBA. It's 539 00:51:27.159 --> 00:51:30.880 like I got it in the nineteen nineties when the CNO said that we needed 540 00:51:30.880 --> 00:51:32.639 to have a business mindset. So I was a good I was a good 541 00:51:32.639 --> 00:51:37.639 little lieutenant and did what I was told. Um So, I mean that's 542 00:51:38.039 --> 00:51:45.079 it's been with us for a long time. And not to wax your apple 543 00:51:45.159 --> 00:51:47.239 or anything, but there are a few people, one of which is Jerry 544 00:51:47.239 --> 00:51:51.079 in the chat room. He might he would, he might be in the 545 00:51:51.119 --> 00:51:52.719 same coalhord as you are. But there a few people that could hold a 546 00:51:52.800 --> 00:51:58.679 candle to the argument and the drum. You've been beaten for so long about 547 00:51:59.079 --> 00:52:02.159 numbers, but not just numbers, but numbers combined with capability. I know 548 00:52:02.320 --> 00:52:06.480 you and I have had this back and forth. Well I'll make some low 549 00:52:06.559 --> 00:52:09.840 te comment about you budget restrictions and you're like, I don't care. We 550 00:52:09.880 --> 00:52:14.719 need what we need and we're gonna ask for it and you find the money 551 00:52:14.880 --> 00:52:21.840 if he has a fair argument. And another former mid Rats gets Sam Tim 552 00:52:21.880 --> 00:52:29.360 mccretty over in the latest issues of Proceedings. There's interesting quote of his I 553 00:52:29.440 --> 00:52:32.960 just wanted to get your take at kind of throwing some raw meat in the 554 00:52:34.000 --> 00:52:38.639 lions den here, but doing what folks do in his position. He looked 555 00:52:38.719 --> 00:52:44.760 at twenty eight naval wars going back to five hundred BC, and of those 556 00:52:44.800 --> 00:52:51.360 twenty eight naval wars, he saw only three instances where superior technology defeats bigger 557 00:52:51.480 --> 00:52:54.519 numbers. And that feeds into it's not an excuse. Perhaps it's maybe a 558 00:52:54.559 --> 00:53:00.480 talking point, but where two Ocean Navy, the peoples are republic, it 559 00:53:00.519 --> 00:53:05.119 is not. And while we've been in this post World War two entitlement, 560 00:53:05.199 --> 00:53:08.320 they've been building up one hell of a fleet and that they just need to 561 00:53:08.320 --> 00:53:14.239 focus on locally. And here's a quote from ten Grady quote. All of 562 00:53:14.239 --> 00:53:19.159 the wars were won by superior numbers or when equal forces, superior strategy, 563 00:53:19.239 --> 00:53:24.719 or admiralship. Often all three qualities act together because operating a large fleet generally 564 00:53:24.760 --> 00:53:30.079 facilitates more extensive training and as often an indicator that leaders are concerned with strategic 565 00:53:30.159 --> 00:53:39.559 requirements. That is just kind of a polite way of saying that we're in 566 00:53:39.599 --> 00:53:43.800 a bit more of a pickle than we think we are. For those that 567 00:53:43.880 --> 00:53:51.440 are are poo pooing the quality inherent in the quantity of the Chinese fleet. 568 00:53:51.719 --> 00:53:53.480 You know, where do you think that balance is and should be part of 569 00:53:53.480 --> 00:54:00.199 our argument? I think first of all that Sam ten Grady's article is one 570 00:54:00.199 --> 00:54:08.519 of the most important things I've read in ten years because it it with scholarship 571 00:54:08.800 --> 00:54:23.760 and and unemotionally goes directly at the capability versus capacity argument, especially the absolute 572 00:54:23.840 --> 00:54:30.360 intellectual intellectually stultifying sense that it has to be one or the other. It's 573 00:54:30.400 --> 00:54:34.840 not, it is, it has to be a blend. And sometimes, 574 00:54:37.719 --> 00:54:40.679 like the Soviet admiral says, quantity has a quality of all of its own. 575 00:54:42.400 --> 00:54:51.840 Um I when I think about our fleet, and I think about the 576 00:54:52.000 --> 00:54:55.280 Chinese fleet, and I think about the way they operate their fleet currently, 577 00:54:57.119 --> 00:55:00.159 the fact that they don't have an overseas basing structure, they don't have an 578 00:55:00.199 --> 00:55:06.800 overseas uh distribution network, They don't have these things yet, they don't have 579 00:55:06.840 --> 00:55:13.159 the they don't have the capacity yet to be able to operate as a global 580 00:55:13.320 --> 00:55:16.840 fleet. They can go make thing, go make some um uh. They 581 00:55:16.880 --> 00:55:22.760 can make some overseas deployments. They can get partshipped to places they need and 582 00:55:22.920 --> 00:55:27.039 food and all the stuff they need for a peacetime employment. They don't have 583 00:55:27.079 --> 00:55:34.239 the infrastructure for wartime force employment. UM. What that what that means to 584 00:55:34.280 --> 00:55:38.840 me is that if if there were a conflict of so much, more of 585 00:55:38.880 --> 00:55:46.599 their fleet would be available for them in that conflict, but a good portion 586 00:55:46.639 --> 00:55:52.639 of that fleet would be vulnerable. Whereas UM and in my view of the 587 00:55:52.679 --> 00:55:58.440 world, our balance and like you refer to as a two ocean navy. 588 00:55:59.159 --> 00:56:05.639 UM, it leads me to believe that in such a conflict, after the 589 00:56:05.679 --> 00:56:14.000 initial rounds of of violence and when some sort of a stasis is reached, 590 00:56:15.760 --> 00:56:21.440 the fact that we still have two thirds of our navy or fifty to two 591 00:56:21.800 --> 00:56:28.119 percent to two thirds of our navy available to pursue what comes next is definitely 592 00:56:28.159 --> 00:56:34.199 an advantage we have. If that's not an advantage in every scenario, it's 593 00:56:34.199 --> 00:56:40.760 not an advantage. If China decides to create a mirror image of our navy 594 00:56:40.880 --> 00:56:46.159 or some version of a global navy, those those things will change. But 595 00:56:46.280 --> 00:56:55.920 for now, I like the way we have our insufficient, insufficiently maintained, 596 00:56:57.920 --> 00:57:04.320 and insufficiently sized fleet. I like the way we have it postured. We 597 00:57:04.440 --> 00:57:07.320 just need more of it. That's kind of where I am right now, 598 00:57:07.559 --> 00:57:10.199 and the other thing five mores. Jerry, Jerry, who you mentioned in 599 00:57:10.480 --> 00:57:13.719 the chat room. Jerry and I have been like this, have been like 600 00:57:13.800 --> 00:57:17.840 freaking frack for you know, a long time. If you want people to 601 00:57:17.960 --> 00:57:22.880 come to you and tell you how you can spend the same amount of money 602 00:57:22.679 --> 00:57:29.000 more efficiently, you probably don't want to talk to Jerry or me. If 603 00:57:29.000 --> 00:57:35.039 you want to talk about what kind of maybe we actually need, how expensive 604 00:57:35.079 --> 00:57:38.159 it's going to be, and why that expense is warranted, talk to Jerry, 605 00:57:38.280 --> 00:57:45.760 talk to Brian. This ties into that that article you commented on by 606 00:57:45.840 --> 00:57:54.480 Megan Exta and at about the Fleet Forces Command suggesting decouplings. You want you 607 00:57:54.519 --> 00:57:58.519 want to take a few minutes to talk about that, because that's a pretty 608 00:57:58.679 --> 00:58:01.679 yeah, yeah, interesting talk. I mean, let's let's face it, 609 00:58:01.840 --> 00:58:06.800 right. What is OFRP? The Operational Fleet Response Plan is a way to 610 00:58:07.239 --> 00:58:20.320 manage forces in peacetime to produce predictable readiness for use by the combatant commanders. 611 00:58:20.519 --> 00:58:23.519 It is I've referred to it, it's a pie factory. O FRP makes 612 00:58:23.559 --> 00:58:30.920 pies, and you get pies. You get pies, you get pies. 613 00:58:31.440 --> 00:58:36.760 I don't know that OFRP is the kind of thing we need. We might 614 00:58:36.840 --> 00:58:44.039 need a high end restaurant approach where someone out there is ordering a ridiculous salad, 615 00:58:44.119 --> 00:58:51.360 someone's ordering oysters on the half shell, someone's ordering a seventeen ounce Delmonico 616 00:58:52.280 --> 00:58:57.079 M. There has to be more of a sense of a blend of those 617 00:58:57.079 --> 00:59:00.440 two things. And what Caudal I think have a Caudles thinking about, is 618 00:59:00.960 --> 00:59:06.960 that we don't necessarily have to tie all of our or so much of our 619 00:59:07.519 --> 00:59:15.480 force structure to this traditional pattern of carrier strike group employment, which is tied 620 00:59:15.000 --> 00:59:22.320 at its heart to the carrier's maintenance cycle. We can and should be thinking 621 00:59:22.320 --> 00:59:28.400 about other ways to employ destroyers and frigates and UH and UH and even amphibia 622 00:59:28.480 --> 00:59:32.119 ships. We do this to an extent. There are independent deployers all the 623 00:59:32.159 --> 00:59:40.840 time. Not a lot, but some um I have ped up. I 624 00:59:40.960 --> 00:59:45.679 just did it in in Twitter last week. This idea that I have that 625 00:59:45.760 --> 00:59:51.039 this the DDGX class that the Navy wants to build and should build and needs 626 00:59:51.079 --> 00:59:57.320 to build, that perhaps it should be built from the ground up as a 627 00:59:57.360 --> 01:00:02.880 ship that is not a carrier strike group asset, that it is a geographic 628 01:00:02.920 --> 01:00:12.480 asset that we build for a constant level of employment in certain places rather than 629 01:00:12.599 --> 01:00:16.840 to serve, rather than tying the numbers of the thing to the numbers of 630 01:00:16.960 --> 01:00:24.760 carrier strike groups that we that we wish to employ. I think what one 631 01:00:24.800 --> 01:00:29.480 advantage to that is that you could take an equal amount of money that you 632 01:00:29.599 --> 01:00:37.000 now spend to get too large surface combatants and too small surface combatants every year, 633 01:00:37.199 --> 01:00:44.760 and you could you could you could instead acquire one and a half large 634 01:00:44.760 --> 01:00:51.719 surface combatants a year and four small surface combatants a year. You would you 635 01:00:51.760 --> 01:00:55.079 would, you could, so that every year you'd be buying five, you'd 636 01:00:55.119 --> 01:00:59.440 be buying five and a half ships instead of four. Number one, you 637 01:00:59.440 --> 01:01:05.000 would change change the makeup of the surface force where you would have over time 638 01:01:05.039 --> 01:01:10.559 you'd have fewer large surface combatants and more numerous small surface combatants, and some 639 01:01:10.760 --> 01:01:15.760 percentage of those new large surface combatants would would then come out of the rotation 640 01:01:15.880 --> 01:01:22.920 and not be carrier strike group deployers. I think you discussed some of your 641 01:01:22.960 --> 01:01:25.639 experience with this, and some of were our experience as a country with this 642 01:01:25.719 --> 01:01:30.840 in the on the gun line in Vietnam. Um. I think one of 643 01:01:30.880 --> 01:01:34.159 the advantages we had then was like an eleven hundred ship navy, and we 644 01:01:34.239 --> 01:01:37.440 had lots of ships with less things, fewer things to do, and I 645 01:01:37.480 --> 01:01:43.519 think that added to that when you got as small as we got over time, 646 01:01:44.400 --> 01:01:50.639 UH Fleet Forces Command under Admiral Davidson when he was there, came up 647 01:01:50.679 --> 01:01:54.440 with OFRP, which was all about efficiency, all about level loading shipyards, 648 01:01:54.480 --> 01:02:01.440 all about a peacetime mindset to how a navy should be employed. That is 649 01:02:01.559 --> 01:02:06.840 insufficient to the moment. We need to start to think about how do we 650 01:02:07.000 --> 01:02:15.719 generate, generate and maintain forward based combat power. Well, as you like 651 01:02:15.800 --> 01:02:19.920 to end a lot of your your writing, winter is coming, so to 652 01:02:20.000 --> 01:02:23.039 speak, but it's it's time to get religion. I'll tell you what, 653 01:02:23.159 --> 01:02:28.119 Brian, it's been. It's been a great hour. I really appreciate you 654 01:02:28.199 --> 01:02:32.880 investing some time with us today. You have been on a quasi prolific writing 655 01:02:34.519 --> 01:02:37.920 run. If the listeners wanted to keep track of you, where's a good 656 01:02:37.960 --> 01:02:42.360 place for him to keep an eyeball? And are you working on something right 657 01:02:42.400 --> 01:02:45.840 now that we should definitely look for in the near future. Yeah, the 658 01:02:45.880 --> 01:02:51.039 best place best thing to do is follow me on Twitter. It's at khans 659 01:02:51.159 --> 01:02:57.360 Wahu c O n s Wahoo. Because every time I write something, I 660 01:02:57.440 --> 01:03:02.679 link to it. Um, I am in fact writing something right now that 661 01:03:04.000 --> 01:03:07.920 I previewed a little bit here earlier today, or I think the title of 662 01:03:07.960 --> 01:03:10.679 it, the working title of is it We're just not serious about war. 663 01:03:12.719 --> 01:03:17.960 And it takes that, it takes that statement from the Lockheed Martin CEO and 664 01:03:19.199 --> 01:03:24.159 builds on that that that we are in order for us to get different results, 665 01:03:24.199 --> 01:03:29.239 we have to do different things. And we're not going to get more 666 01:03:29.280 --> 01:03:30.920 ships. We're not going to get more precision missiles, We're not going to 667 01:03:30.960 --> 01:03:39.320 get more artillery shells or stinger missiles. By continuing to shape our defense industrial 668 01:03:39.320 --> 01:03:45.559 base for peacetime efficient peacetime production. Well perfect, Why I look forward to 669 01:03:45.599 --> 01:03:51.119 reading that, And Thanksgan, Brian really appreciate your time with us today. 670 01:03:51.880 --> 01:03:54.119 Yeah, it's been great. Thank you a pleasure. Thank you guys, 671 01:03:54.199 --> 01:04:00.719 thank you, and thank you everybody for joining us for another the Midrats. 672 01:04:00.079 --> 01:04:06.760 Until next time, we hope you have a great Navy day. Cheers by 673 01:04:06.880 --> 01:04:15.440 all kings like my lonely want to marry me and please fan that be. 674 01:04:15.639 --> 01:04:24.519 Can't believe all your being to blame for love fabily to me, silly faulting 675 01:04:24.679 --> 01:04:35.119 your the same. It's a long way to differ. It's a long way 676 01:04:33.119 --> 01:04:46.599 to go. It's a long way to differ between. I don't bye pcdealing, 677 01:04:48.559 --> 01:04:54.960 Well, let's talk to it. It's a long long way to dipper 678 01:04:55.159 --> 01:05:01.199 Ram, but my life by the ve move