1 00:00:00,760 --> 00:00:06,599 You're listening to the Paranormal UK Radio Network, the best in paranormal talk radio 2 00:00:06,799 --> 00:00:17,199 in the UK and around the world. What's you through that the impossible or 3 00:00:17,199 --> 00:00:23,359 whatever I may improbable must be true about and it is not a question of 4 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:28,960 the all a touch of mysticism is today It is empires as a host of 5 00:00:29,039 --> 00:00:38,560 ben souls and pnomas, my father spirit, dude, a certain termed the 6 00:00:38,799 --> 00:00:45,520 Night Journey. Old gods aren't dead and what is the true God? He's 7 00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:52,000 dead? You can't complain. People assume the time is a strict progression of 8 00:00:52,039 --> 00:00:55,880 course to effect, but actually from a nonlinear, non subjective viewpoint, it's 9 00:00:56,079 --> 00:01:02,640 more like a big ball of weiby wobbly thymey, whymy stuff. You're listening 10 00:01:02,759 --> 00:01:11,079 to Paranormal UK Radio. Greetings everyone, and welcome to the Paranoral UK Radio 11 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:17,280 Show, the flagship show here on the Paranormal UK Radio Network. I'm Mark 12 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:25,439 Johnson and normally I am joined by our host Irene Allen. Unfortunately she's not 13 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:30,400 able to be here right now, and I want to take an opportunity to 14 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:37,359 explain to those of you who follow us what's been going on the last few 15 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:44,719 months. This is the first show that we're doing for the twenty twenty four 16 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:53,920 season, and the reason it's taken so long had to do with several medical 17 00:01:55,000 --> 00:02:01,519 issues that sprung up between both myself and I. Even though we're on different 18 00:02:01,560 --> 00:02:07,120 sides of the pond, each of us has been dealing with something. Now 19 00:02:08,319 --> 00:02:15,560 her issues, I don't feel at liberty to discuss. She wants to bring 20 00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:21,400 it up the next time she's on she can. But for me, it 21 00:02:21,599 --> 00:02:27,360 all started New Year's Day. New Year's Day, I got sick with COVID, 22 00:02:28,439 --> 00:02:34,719 so I was down and out for a couple of weeks. Then I 23 00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:43,840 uh two weeks later, had a heart attack and that took me by surprise. 24 00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:52,280 Thankfully it was a mild heart attack, but still they did a cathardization 25 00:02:52,439 --> 00:02:55,120 on me to see if they could put in some stints, and they found 26 00:02:55,199 --> 00:03:04,039 that the blockages were so severe they brought me in for a quintuple bypass their 27 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:09,000 treat So I spent a couple of weeks in the hospital, then a couple 28 00:03:09,080 --> 00:03:17,000 more weeks recuperating at my sister in law's house because I couldn't be alone. 29 00:03:17,439 --> 00:03:23,639 Finally I came home and I would be back sooner, but I was dealing 30 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:34,759 with this weird, horrible cough that wouldn't go away, and I kept complaining 31 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:38,439 to my doctors about it, and nobody really seemed to be taking it seriously. 32 00:03:39,639 --> 00:03:45,639 I finally had to go in and really complain and they put me on 33 00:03:45,719 --> 00:03:52,840 some prendizone steroids and it knocked it right out. Now I still get little 34 00:03:52,879 --> 00:03:55,360 coughing fits here and there. You can hear my voice is a little bit 35 00:03:55,360 --> 00:04:03,840 of a huskiness to it, but I'm much much better. I've got a 36 00:04:03,879 --> 00:04:09,680 clean bill of health. I've been told to go out and live life, 37 00:04:09,919 --> 00:04:15,039 which is what I intend to do. And we're going to be moving forward 38 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:19,680 with the Paranormal UK radio show. I'm lining up some great guests for the 39 00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:27,040 future. We have a great guest tonight that I can't wait to tell you 40 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:31,839 about, and hopefully Irene is able to join me by the next show. 41 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:41,000 So we're getting back into the saddle and better late than never. So we're 42 00:04:41,240 --> 00:04:46,360 going to move forward from here. So I want to introduce tonight's guest, 43 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:55,839 and he has been a guest with us before in the Past's author Ron Felber 44 00:04:56,920 --> 00:05:03,040 Now. Ron is a graduate of George University, Leola University and Drew University 45 00:05:03,079 --> 00:05:10,879 where you earned his doctorate. He began writing stories for True Detective magazine, 46 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:17,720 and he also has written several other books. Now, one book we had 47 00:05:18,759 --> 00:05:25,160 him on the show for was The Mahave Incident, which if you haven't read 48 00:05:25,199 --> 00:05:28,319 that book, oh God, you please, you need to go read it. 49 00:05:28,399 --> 00:05:35,079 That was one of the most wild and intense stories of a UFO alien 50 00:05:35,439 --> 00:05:44,279 encounter. And I don't necessarily call it an abduction, but what this couple 51 00:05:44,399 --> 00:05:51,560 who were camping out in the Mojave Desert in California went through really really is 52 00:05:53,240 --> 00:06:01,040 incredible. So right now we're having him on for his brand new book, 53 00:06:01,199 --> 00:06:09,879 which is titled The Unwelcomed The Curious Case of Clara Fowler, which is based 54 00:06:09,959 --> 00:06:16,439 on a true medical case history passed on to Ron by no less than William 55 00:06:16,519 --> 00:06:26,079 Peter Bladdie, the author of the Original Exorcist. And this is another tale 56 00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:32,680 of demonic possession based on real case study, and we're excited to talk to 57 00:06:32,720 --> 00:06:40,519 him about it. So Ron, welcome to the program. Ron. How 58 00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:43,360 are you doing. I'm doing just fine. Mark. It's good to be 59 00:06:43,439 --> 00:06:46,040 on your show again. It's been a while. Yeah, it's been quite 60 00:06:46,079 --> 00:06:49,720 a while. When we last had you on for your book the Mahave incident 61 00:06:50,480 --> 00:06:56,720 and just a moment ago I was raving about it. That had to be 62 00:06:56,759 --> 00:07:03,560 one of the most I don't know how to describe it. It's so unbelievable 63 00:07:04,079 --> 00:07:10,279 in so many different ways to think that that actually happened to that couple. 64 00:07:10,959 --> 00:07:16,120 And the high strangeness, and I mean there was some high strangeness exactly associated 65 00:07:16,199 --> 00:07:21,480 with that case was just I want to say, it's almost unbelievable, but 66 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:28,319 I believe it. It's just it's amazing. And how much of that was 67 00:07:29,279 --> 00:07:32,920 real? How much of that was screen memories? No, it was real, 68 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:38,160 I mean everything, every this is what happened. I mean, I 69 00:07:38,279 --> 00:07:41,759 met the Hesses through a friend I was. I was CEO of a company 70 00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:48,000 at the time, and I hired a salesman in California and we became friends. 71 00:07:48,759 --> 00:07:51,160 So when I was on the East coast, he was on the west, 72 00:07:51,199 --> 00:07:56,319 and when we would meet to work, we'd have dinner because we were 73 00:07:56,319 --> 00:08:01,079 friendly and you know, talk about families and you know whatever. And he 74 00:08:01,120 --> 00:08:05,319 said, you know, I know you're a writer. And I published a 75 00:08:05,399 --> 00:08:09,040 number of books at that time, even and he said, I have this 76 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:13,199 story. The people don't want to talk about it. But he's my best 77 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:18,160 friend. I played football with him in college. He's an All league football 78 00:08:18,199 --> 00:08:22,000 player. He's married to the most delightful woman you could imagine. They have 79 00:08:22,079 --> 00:08:26,519 two children. He's got a great job. He's a management you know, 80 00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:33,840 a construction manager for shopping malls and large projects. So assault of the Earth 81 00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:39,120 kind of people. They don't want to talk about it because it's so upsetting. 82 00:08:39,759 --> 00:08:43,360 On the other hand, you're a writer. I trust you. I 83 00:08:43,399 --> 00:08:48,480 know that it would be helpful to them to tell their story. So reluctantly, 84 00:08:48,519 --> 00:08:52,799 I didn't really want to write a book about alien abduction. It really 85 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:56,039 wasn't on my radar screen at the time. And I said, all right, 86 00:08:56,080 --> 00:08:58,799 look, it's a friend of yours. If you say it's a great 87 00:08:58,799 --> 00:09:01,360 story, etc. So I met them and they told me the very beginning 88 00:09:01,399 --> 00:09:05,039 reluctantly, though, I must say, the very beginning of the story. 89 00:09:05,080 --> 00:09:09,879 And a UFO that was the size of a football field. And as soon 90 00:09:09,919 --> 00:09:13,159 as I heard that, I was like you, I said, let me 91 00:09:13,759 --> 00:09:18,759 visualize this. A UFO the size of a football field. He goes, 92 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:22,639 yeah, we were in a valley and the Mohave Desert mountains around us, 93 00:09:22,879 --> 00:09:28,159 and it cap literally capped the valley, and at that stage of the game, 94 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:33,159 I said, you know, maybe this is just crazy. But then 95 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:41,360 he continued described the terrible nightmares they were experiencing, the sexual dysfunction, insomnia, 96 00:09:41,919 --> 00:09:50,080 no appetite, really all of these symptoms let's say of a pow returning 97 00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:54,840 from war, you know, where you've been deprived of freedom and deprived of 98 00:09:54,919 --> 00:10:01,960 food, et cetera. Just really really shaken to the core. And I 99 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:03,960 said, well, I have to take this seriously, and I did, 100 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:11,000 and we took them to the National Center of Psychiatry in Washington, d C. 101 00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:15,960 Where they were evaluated. They had no they were not prone to fantasy, 102 00:10:16,080 --> 00:10:22,600 they were not you know, I had any mental illness. They were 103 00:10:22,919 --> 00:10:31,240 very fact based, successful and you know, straightforward individuals. Then I took 104 00:10:31,279 --> 00:10:35,080 them for a light detective test, which they both passed, and then finally 105 00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:41,960 I had them retrogressed for the part of the abduction that they didn't remember and 106 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:46,080 were having horrible nightmares about. So I totally understand where you're coming from. 107 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:50,519 But I taped them for hours and hours, and everything that's in the book 108 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:58,879 came from the tapes, so it is it is fact based. Wow. 109 00:10:58,159 --> 00:11:05,720 Wow, I know, I recommend if anybody wants to hear more about that 110 00:11:05,799 --> 00:11:11,960 book, it isn't our archives. So if you go to our mainly on 111 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:18,720 our account anywhere that our platform, Apple Music, Spreaker, everywhere, you 112 00:11:18,799 --> 00:11:26,639 can just do a search on Ron Felber and the interview will come up and 113 00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:31,000 you can listen to that one. But now today we're here to talk about 114 00:11:31,039 --> 00:11:39,120 the Unwelcomed or the Curious Case of Clara Fowler. Yes, and there seems 115 00:11:39,159 --> 00:11:43,519 to be a well, tell us a little bit how you came about to 116 00:11:43,679 --> 00:11:50,840 write about this book and your approach to writing it so well, you know, 117 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:56,399 it's a great story really because I first came upon this story in nineteen 118 00:11:56,559 --> 00:12:03,519 seventy two, Yeah, when William Peter Bladdie was filming The Exorcist at Georgetown 119 00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:09,600 University. I was a sophomore in college there, and I was a writer. 120 00:12:09,720 --> 00:12:13,000 Even then. I'd been writing short stories and writing you know things, 121 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:16,919 and I had my first book, my first novel. So I said to 122 00:12:16,960 --> 00:12:20,039 myself, you know, here's a guy who has a best seller on the 123 00:12:20,039 --> 00:12:26,440 New York Times bestseller list, The Exorcist for fifty six weeks. I've got 124 00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:28,799 to meet this guy. I want to be a writer desperately. I have 125 00:12:28,919 --> 00:12:31,519 my first novel. Maybe he'll read it. I can get him to read 126 00:12:31,559 --> 00:12:37,279 it, he'll like it and help me get it published. So they were 127 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:43,120 filming, he and Billy Friedkin and the crew at Georgetown, and I couldn't 128 00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:46,960 meet him because everything was cordoned off and police and whatnot, you know, 129 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:52,840 for the filming. But I knew that I'd learned that he had an office 130 00:12:52,519 --> 00:12:58,000 in Arlington, Virginia, right across the Key Bridge, right across the Potomac 131 00:12:58,120 --> 00:13:03,559 River from Georgia Town. So I went there. I met with his administrative 132 00:13:03,559 --> 00:13:07,720 assistant, and I brought my manuscript and I said, you know, I 133 00:13:07,879 --> 00:13:13,639 really really would appreciate it if you could give this to mister Bladdie and ask 134 00:13:13,759 --> 00:13:16,120 him to read it, and if he likes it very much, there's a 135 00:13:16,159 --> 00:13:20,000 phone number there, and you know, maybe he could contact me because I'd 136 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:24,600 love to discuss it with him. So she said, well, I have 137 00:13:24,639 --> 00:13:31,240 about one hundred manuscripts behind me from all over the world of young writers, 138 00:13:31,279 --> 00:13:35,480 old writers and middle aged writers whatever that want to get their book to mister 139 00:13:35,519 --> 00:13:39,879 Bladdie so that he'll help them publish it. I'll put it in the Pile. 140 00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:45,360 I said, no, please don't do that. I like him. 141 00:13:45,519 --> 00:13:48,399 I'm a student at Georgetown and I'm here in front of you. I'm not 142 00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:50,919 sending this by mail. I'm handing it to you personally. I said, 143 00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:54,960 I come from Newark, New Jersey. That's where I grew up. He 144 00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:58,919 grew up in the Bronx. We were both here on scholarship for writing. 145 00:14:01,559 --> 00:14:05,279 I'm very much like he was twenty years ago. So please tell him that. 146 00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:13,080 Tell him that I am William Peter Bladie, only younger, and please 147 00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:16,240 look at my book. So he said, I'll tell you what. I'll 148 00:14:16,240 --> 00:14:18,919 give it to him and tell you what I said. After that. It's 149 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:22,519 up to him and you know, and we'll leave it at that. But 150 00:14:22,559 --> 00:14:26,360 I promised to you I will hand it to him personally. So, as 151 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:31,200 it turns out, he called me. He did call me to home over 152 00:14:31,279 --> 00:14:35,159 Thanksgiving holiday in New Jersey and told me he liked the book we met. 153 00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:39,759 He didn't help me get that book published, but he helped me get a 154 00:14:39,799 --> 00:14:45,840 different book published. But more than that, he gave me the idea and 155 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:50,399 gifted me the story for the Unwelcomed The Curious Case of Clara Fowler. He 156 00:14:50,519 --> 00:14:56,320 had been researching the Exorcist and came across a case at Harvard University Medical School 157 00:14:56,799 --> 00:15:01,799 that happened in eighteen ninety eight eight teen ninety eight to nineteen oh four, 158 00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:09,159 where a young Radcliffe student came to doctor Morton Prince and William James, the 159 00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:16,840 famous William James, the father really of abnormal psychiatry, and Richard Hogson and 160 00:15:18,159 --> 00:15:22,720 doctor George Waterman. A team that was formed to study this woman who had 161 00:15:22,799 --> 00:15:28,480 all of the signs of demonic possession. Her voice would change to a man's 162 00:15:28,559 --> 00:15:35,000 voice, this horrific, explosive voice, her face would remold she had the 163 00:15:35,039 --> 00:15:39,879 strength of ten men. She exhibited clairvoyance and spoken languages that she had no 164 00:15:41,039 --> 00:15:46,320 way of knowing, and raged at religious objects the Bible, rosary, beads, 165 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:52,399 church. They studied her in this second state at great You know, 166 00:15:52,679 --> 00:15:58,240 it took great pains to study as scientists would the second consciousness, as they 167 00:15:58,279 --> 00:16:04,320 called it. The experienced no pain, no need of food or sleep, 168 00:16:06,159 --> 00:16:11,320 experienced no illness, experienced no fatigue, and was awake twenty four to seven. 169 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:18,480 So the girl's body could withstand all that. Well, that's really a 170 00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:26,799 very interesting point because what happened was the demonic presence knew or learned that the 171 00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:33,759 weaker the body was, the easier it was for it to come in control 172 00:16:33,799 --> 00:16:41,840 of the body, and so the demon made a practiced regimen of keeping her 173 00:16:41,879 --> 00:16:47,399 awake at night with incredibly horrible nightmares, so she was afraid to sleep go 174 00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:51,360 to sleep. When she tried to eat, maggots would be in her food, 175 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:56,600 and she would visualize maggots, hallucinate magnets and maggots in her food, 176 00:16:56,960 --> 00:17:00,720 so she wouldn't eat, and it would have missed. She would have missing 177 00:17:00,799 --> 00:17:07,440 time where the demonic presence would take her on walks, long long walks, 178 00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:12,400 sometimes without shoes, et cetera, and she'd wake up hours later not knowing 179 00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:17,000 where she was or how she got there, and she'd have to figure out 180 00:17:17,039 --> 00:17:21,079 her way home. At night, it would she would wake up in the 181 00:17:21,119 --> 00:17:26,599 morning to do letters that the demonic presence would write. As a matter of 182 00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:30,599 fact, I have one of them right here. Hypocrite orror, how I 183 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:33,640 hate you. The pains of hell shall come down upon thee. You shall 184 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:38,279 find no help, no comfort in heaven or help, or no heaven or 185 00:17:38,319 --> 00:17:42,279 earth from my wrath, not till student Clara is dead. And puts a 186 00:17:42,279 --> 00:17:48,279 bullet through her head. Devil, devil, devil. Well, so, 187 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:53,440 yes, she was on the verge of total physical collapse through much of this, 188 00:17:53,640 --> 00:18:02,599 and they tried every method available to them and eventually wound up going to 189 00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:07,839 exorcism. Yeah. Crazy story, really an incredible story. Again, this 190 00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:11,359 was a woman, a young woman twenty two years old from Radcliffe College, 191 00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:19,480 documented to the t because Prince had a stenographer there for the hypnotic sessions and 192 00:18:19,519 --> 00:18:25,720 for the you know, the psychiatric sessions. There were letters between them like 193 00:18:25,799 --> 00:18:30,359 that, letters from the demonic presence to her. All of this was like 194 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:36,119 a treasure trove of information at the Harvard Medical School Library, where Bill Bladdie 195 00:18:36,279 --> 00:18:38,000 had called ahead to the curator and said, you know, I have a 196 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:41,880 young man that that's writing a book. I'd appreciate it if you would allow 197 00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:48,759 him into the library and give him access to all these records. Fantastic. 198 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:56,480 There's a couple of interesting things. One question is you chose to write this 199 00:18:56,640 --> 00:19:03,359 book as more of a novel, yes, in fiction, fiction, instead 200 00:19:03,359 --> 00:19:08,000 of like going through and recounting as a more like a documentary. Wow, 201 00:19:08,119 --> 00:19:11,960 why did you choose that out lot? You know, that's another great question, 202 00:19:12,559 --> 00:19:17,519 because I did try to do it as a documentary. So I was 203 00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:23,920 twenty let me think nineteen twenty one, maybe twenty two years old myself when 204 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:27,240 I tried to write it after Blintie. I did the research. I had 205 00:19:27,279 --> 00:19:33,359 tons of research, probably too much research really from my standpoint, because it 206 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:40,000 was overwhelming and as a young writer who'd really been writing like spy novels, 207 00:19:41,119 --> 00:19:45,960 action adventure stories, things that took place today, you know, in the 208 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:53,319 current environment, as opposed to eighteen ninety eight or nineteen oh four when the 209 00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:57,119 case ended. So I tried it as a documentary, but frankly, I 210 00:19:57,200 --> 00:20:00,960 just didn't have the talent to pull it off. It's very difficult to do 211 00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:07,400 either way. But the documentary came off like a medical textbook, and I 212 00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:12,200 didn't want that because it really, as dramatic and incredible as the story was, 213 00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:18,400 fact by fact, it needed more than just to say this is what 214 00:20:18,519 --> 00:20:22,759 happened. It needed to be told like a story. So, for example, 215 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:26,200 if we took history and I told you about I don't know, the 216 00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:30,880 Battle of Waterloo, you know, Napoleon and Wellington at the Battle of water 217 00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:33,559 and I just gave you facts it happened on this date. You know, 218 00:20:33,799 --> 00:20:38,599 it was a sunny day, it was a cloudy day. Napoleon is five 219 00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:45,640 foot seven inches tall. It really it gives you information, but it doesn't 220 00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:51,559 give you the feeling. It doesn't give you the soul of what went on. 221 00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:56,279 And so much later after I failed it writing it the first time, 222 00:20:56,680 --> 00:21:00,920 I about three years ago, I said, you know, all this information, 223 00:21:00,039 --> 00:21:04,039 this has got to be the best story I've ever come across. Let 224 00:21:04,039 --> 00:21:08,319 me try it with a different voice. And the voice would be something like, 225 00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:12,359 Mark, You're next next to me in a coffee shop. I have 226 00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:15,880 a cup of coffee and you have a cup of coffee, and I say, 227 00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:18,720 you know, Mark, I'm going to tell you a story that is 228 00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:26,519 incredible. You know. It's the most documented story of demonic possession probably ever, 229 00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:32,000 and it started like this. That's a kind of voice, a storytelling 230 00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:37,680 voice that allows you to allows you some room in terms of feelings. A 231 00:21:37,759 --> 00:21:44,440 documentary doesn't give you that, like fear, the terror this woman experience, 232 00:21:44,799 --> 00:21:49,640 the depression, you know, the idea that she was literally in hell and 233 00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:55,319 couldn't get out. You know, those kind of expressions what I just told 234 00:21:55,359 --> 00:22:00,000 you don't really have a place in the documentary but those kind of expressions, 235 00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:07,240 feelings and emotions and things like fear, things like anticipation, you can do. 236 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:10,440 So I call it a novel, but it's a novel based on a 237 00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:18,440 true story. You know. Blatty himself when he wrote The Exorcist, even 238 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:22,480 though he wrote it as a novel, he based it on a case in 239 00:22:22,519 --> 00:22:29,400 the nineteen fifties where a boy was possessed, so he was able to take 240 00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:34,200 elements of that create the novel than actually the screenplay, which for me, 241 00:22:34,279 --> 00:22:41,279 it's one of my favorite movies of all time because of the approach William Friedkin 242 00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:45,440 took, which was not to direct it like a horror movie, but direct 243 00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:51,279 it like a documentary exactly. So really it's the combination which is tricky business. 244 00:22:51,279 --> 00:22:53,960 They call it narrative fiction, but the tricky business is to do something 245 00:22:55,000 --> 00:23:00,359 that's fact based in a way that's enticing. And by the way, the 246 00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:03,880 case it was nineteen forty nine in Maryland, the case of the boy that 247 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:08,559 was possessed. But one of the other cases that Bill Bladie used for The 248 00:23:08,599 --> 00:23:15,200 Exorcist was the Clara Fowler case. Really okay, yes, okay, that's 249 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:18,039 how he came upon it, you know, in his research for the book 250 00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:23,039 and the movie. Well, some of the elements that you had mentioned that 251 00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:32,200 Clara exhibited when she was being you know, going through therapy, and the 252 00:23:32,319 --> 00:23:41,279 voice changes and the physical changes, all of these wild things that are beyond 253 00:23:41,319 --> 00:23:48,079 belief. And they happened at a time which when America was actually going through 254 00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:55,839 this spiritualism type of revolution, so a lot of it was would be much 255 00:23:55,920 --> 00:24:03,200 more open to the public than say, going through the nineteen fifties and forward, 256 00:24:03,279 --> 00:24:11,839 where everything turned much more religious conservative. And yes, actually to your 257 00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:15,240 point, Prince, when he assembled the team that would study her in this 258 00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:21,759 case, chose William James. And to William James, like I said, 259 00:24:21,839 --> 00:24:29,480 is really the father. He's the first person to teach abnormal psychology at anywhere 260 00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:32,759 in the United States, but he taught it at Harvard Medical School, and 261 00:24:32,839 --> 00:24:37,480 most people consider William James something of a genius. Doctor Morton Prince who was 262 00:24:37,839 --> 00:24:42,519 the primary doctor, and he was a Harvard Medical School graduate that had a 263 00:24:42,559 --> 00:24:49,400 practice and also taught and lectured at Tufts University doctor George Waterman. And George 264 00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:56,359 Waterman was a Harvard graduate and Prince's protege an heir to the Watermen Penn, 265 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:03,839 the Waterman Penn Dynasty. I guess you'd call it also because of what you're 266 00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:11,480 saying with spiritualism. He added to the team doctor Richard Hodgson, who was 267 00:25:11,519 --> 00:25:18,759 the president of the American Psychical Society Research Society and a spiritualist, and also 268 00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:23,759 Leonora Piper, who was a clairvoyant, so to cover that base, because 269 00:25:23,799 --> 00:25:29,400 if he just took it from a clinical standpoint, people would say, well, 270 00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:33,319 you've directed this towards your theories of medicine. So he wanted to get 271 00:25:33,319 --> 00:25:38,119 a kind of consensus in different points of view on what was happening because it 272 00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:47,000 was truly a phenomenon. Now, in a lot of possession cases, at 273 00:25:47,079 --> 00:25:56,279 least ones that I've heard of, the person who becomes first there's oppression and 274 00:25:56,319 --> 00:26:04,559 then possession, and usually sometimes the person has goes through something very traumatic earlier 275 00:26:04,599 --> 00:26:11,880 in their life. There was also the late father Malachi Martin, Yes, 276 00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:18,640 who always proclaimed that well the person invited it in. Yes, yeah, 277 00:26:18,759 --> 00:26:22,319 they couldn't think the demons couldn't come in less they invited him in. So 278 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:26,720 what did you find with Clara's case? Well, you know, this is 279 00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:32,240 this is I think maybe one of the reasons that Bill Bladie didn't pursue this 280 00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:37,119 story and went on to something else, was because he looked at it as 281 00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:41,079 a classic case of demonic possession, and that served his purposes in terms of 282 00:26:41,079 --> 00:26:48,000 writing The Exorcist. However, there's much much more to this story than the 283 00:26:48,039 --> 00:26:52,839 possession itself. As a matter of fact, there were three murders involved, 284 00:26:53,799 --> 00:27:03,079 and basically I call this a story of science murder in the paranormal. And 285 00:27:03,519 --> 00:27:15,519 Clara's father was an alcoholic and a wife beater and abusive and probably abusive to 286 00:27:15,559 --> 00:27:19,880 her. There's certainly, you know, fertile ground for that thought that she 287 00:27:21,039 --> 00:27:27,039 was abused, probably sexually. Her two her brother and sister, Bessie and 288 00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:33,920 Charles, both died under suspicious circumstances, so that actually when she was being 289 00:27:34,079 --> 00:27:42,200 treated by doctor Prince, there was a city marshall named Rufus Bassett. They 290 00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:48,920 called him Bassett and nicknamed like a basset hound. Rufus Bassett Hilliard and Bassett. 291 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:57,240 Hilliard was the investigator for the Lizzie Borden murders in Full River, and 292 00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:03,119 also for the axe murder, and also for the one Corelero murders which happened 293 00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:08,880 believe it or not, within a six month time frame and within a couple 294 00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:15,039 of miles of the Lizzie Borden murders, where one Corelero, a Portuguese worker 295 00:28:15,759 --> 00:28:22,279 farm worker, went into the kitchen of his boss and axe murdered brutally, 296 00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:30,319 acts murdered his wife. Clara, Fowler's brother and sister, Bessie and Charles 297 00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:36,920 died, as I said, under mysterious circumstances, and the city Marshall Rufus 298 00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:44,359 Bassett Hilliard was convinced that her father murdered her brother and sister, and so 299 00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:49,039 he went to Boston looking to have Clara testify against her father, and then 300 00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:56,200 came to find out that she's in Boston all right, a student at Radcliffe, 301 00:28:56,200 --> 00:29:00,319 so she had to drop out, but being treated for what appears to 302 00:29:00,359 --> 00:29:10,680 be demonic possession by doctor Morton Prince. Was there any after the fact, 303 00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:17,880 any suspicion that maybe she did it under the influence, Well, I mean, 304 00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:21,960 I won't get into that, but I will tell you this, Lizzie 305 00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:26,000 Borden had no memory of killing her mother or father, and one of the 306 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:30,200 reasons she was acquitted, though Bassett knew she was the murderous because he had 307 00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:33,279 evidence that couldn't be submitted in court, but he was convinced she was the 308 00:29:33,359 --> 00:29:37,599 murderous. Nevertheless, she had no memory of it, and so when questioned, 309 00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:41,880 you know, the only thing she was like adamant about was that she 310 00:29:42,359 --> 00:29:48,359 didn't know what happened, and that was pretty believable to a jury. One 311 00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:52,400 Cariarro, who also committed an axe murder right within the same four or five 312 00:29:52,440 --> 00:30:00,559 mile radius as the Fowler murders or children the board and murder, he had 313 00:30:00,559 --> 00:30:04,680 no knowledge of the murder or remembrance and actually went to the town and bought 314 00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:10,880 a pair of shoes directly following the murder. So you have, you know, 315 00:30:11,319 --> 00:30:17,599 two people, all in Fall River, all within a very small geographical 316 00:30:18,559 --> 00:30:25,440 radius that you know, where there's violence, violence that really society had never 317 00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:30,559 seen before, you know, occurring in a small industrial town, Fall River, 318 00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:37,720 Massachusetts, not far from Boston. You know, there's elements to all 319 00:30:37,799 --> 00:30:41,599 of that. You may or may or may not agree with me, but 320 00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:48,960 it's just hitting me because I'm familiar with Laddie's later work, especially the follow 321 00:30:49,079 --> 00:30:56,279 up novel Legion. Yes, they made the movie Exorcist three, which great 322 00:30:56,359 --> 00:30:57,720 movie in a lot of ways. Of course, what they had to put 323 00:30:57,799 --> 00:31:07,160 up with studio interferce and so geez. But like the idea of something going 324 00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:15,680 and possessing people and causing these murders, are causing mayhem and then the people 325 00:31:15,759 --> 00:31:18,160 having no knowledge of it. Yeah, that's not that's not so unusual. 326 00:31:18,559 --> 00:31:21,359 You know. As a matter of fact, I don't know if you know 327 00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:25,240 this about me, Mark, but I was a deputy sheriff for over three 328 00:31:25,319 --> 00:31:29,000 years, three and a half years or so in the Washington, DC area, 329 00:31:29,039 --> 00:31:33,160 and I transported federal prisoners. And you know, a frequent question I 330 00:31:33,279 --> 00:31:38,319 get, is demonic possession real? And I can tell you demonic possession is 331 00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:42,200 very real. It's not necessarily you know, it's not necessarily a name like 332 00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:48,039 Lizzie Borden or or you know somebody famous, Jack the Ripper or j Tolmes. 333 00:31:48,279 --> 00:31:52,799 It's not not necessarily names that you would know. But if you looked 334 00:31:52,839 --> 00:31:56,720 into the eyes of a guy, for example, and I don't want to 335 00:31:56,720 --> 00:32:02,480 be too graphic, but Hell's Angel who kid and tortured to death a fourteen 336 00:32:02,519 --> 00:32:07,359 year old girl. You know, you meet somebody like that, and believe 337 00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:21,119 me, you'll believe in demonic possession. Interesting, the the idea of demonic 338 00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:27,440 possession actually is ages old, goes all the way back to Biblical days. 339 00:32:28,039 --> 00:32:31,519 Yes, in fact, with I don't know, if you've ever watched the 340 00:32:31,599 --> 00:32:36,759 TV show That Chosen, they deal with it several times. I actually, 341 00:32:37,599 --> 00:32:40,079 I actually like the way that they dealt with it in the show. But 342 00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:45,319 for the longest time, you know, you don't really hear too much about 343 00:32:45,319 --> 00:32:53,400 it or other cases throughout history. And it really, even with this case, 344 00:32:54,640 --> 00:33:00,839 didn't get a lot of press or at least not being in the public 345 00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:09,480 consciousness these last fifty sixty years, not like the Exorcist did, and people 346 00:33:12,359 --> 00:33:16,440 was there really a lot going on at that time? I mean, how 347 00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:22,960 often would you would you say if you know that there was people dealing with 348 00:33:23,079 --> 00:33:30,759 actual demonic possession. Well, I'll take it from two standpoints. One is 349 00:33:30,519 --> 00:33:37,200 that you don't hear about demonic possession much anymore. But in fact, demonic 350 00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:40,680 possession has been on the rise for the last twenty years. The Vatican, 351 00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:49,119 as a matter of fact, started began an order of priests that do nothing 352 00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:52,759 but exorcisms. So in the United States, if you went back fifteen or 353 00:33:52,799 --> 00:33:58,720 twenty years, there would have been a handful of exorcists that had been trained 354 00:33:58,799 --> 00:34:02,720 by the Vatican, and they up that number to the point where right now 355 00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:08,360 it's over one hundred and fifty in terms of the Fouler case. So exorcism 356 00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:14,920 is not only around, it's been on the rise for quite some time. 357 00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:17,559 And maybe it's just something that you don't hear about much, but you know, 358 00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:23,000 and it's not just Catholics, it's you know, there's all kinds of 359 00:34:23,199 --> 00:34:28,679 it's go to YouTube, you'll see all kinds of cases about current demonic possession. 360 00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:32,760 The other point I wanted to make was about the Fowler case. One 361 00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:37,760 of the things I mentioned to you was this issue with Facebook, where I'd 362 00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:42,880 said in a video that this was a case that the medical establishment did not 363 00:34:43,079 --> 00:34:46,800 want you to know. Well, basically, as you pointed out, at 364 00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:51,880 the turn of the century, there were two schools of thought, well really 365 00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:57,199 three. One was spiritualism, and there were nine million spiritualists at the time 366 00:34:57,559 --> 00:35:01,679 in the United States and Europe, fair number, and they were successful people. 367 00:35:02,119 --> 00:35:08,159 Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, the author of Sherlock Holmes, Charles Dickens, 368 00:35:08,159 --> 00:35:16,239 Madam Cui, Pierre Gay, the founders of X rays, Sir Joseph Lodge, 369 00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:25,920 a physicist from England, so there were really mainstream names scientists and thinkers 370 00:35:27,199 --> 00:35:31,320 that were spiritualists. William James was one of them. Believed that you could 371 00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:35,679 contact, that there was a spirit world, et cetera. So that was 372 00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:40,719 one school as bought, and that was anathema to Prince, who was a 373 00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:47,920 behaviorist. He believed that there were physical causes, you know, physical origins 374 00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:54,679 for symptoms that were displayed. So for example, schizophrenia, he would say, 375 00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:59,760 it has nothing to do with psychoanalysis. And what Freud would be talking 376 00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:05,000 about out with sexual fantasies and childhood repression, etc. You know, he 377 00:36:05,039 --> 00:36:07,280 thought that was garbage. Rubbish, rubbish is what he called it in an 378 00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:12,159 article. He believed that there were physical causes, you know, the things 379 00:36:12,199 --> 00:36:19,079 that caused mental illness were physical imbalances, chemical imbalances in the brain, lesions, 380 00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:23,679 things of that nature. And then there was Freud who had just written 381 00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:30,360 Interpretations of a Dream in nineteen oh one, which took the world by storm, 382 00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:32,760 the medical community by storm, and he became, you know, a 383 00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:42,199 celebrity, and his views on psychoanalysis were considered gospel. Prince totally disagreed and 384 00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:46,199 thought that this case, this case, if he could show that this woman 385 00:36:46,639 --> 00:36:51,960 who had all the symptoms of demonic possession, which goes back, as you 386 00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:57,719 say, you know, thousands of years to the Bible, probably before he 387 00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:04,039 could show that this was a disease that had a physical cause to it, 388 00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:08,760 that it was maybe as a form of hysteria or a form of some kind 389 00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:15,519 of epilepsy, that if he could prove that, he would overshadow Freud, 390 00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:22,880 not for his own ego, and set the direction for psychiatry going forward into 391 00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:29,159 the twentieth century. As a result of that, he really skewed in his 392 00:37:29,199 --> 00:37:34,679 book which he wrote nineteen oh six, Dissociation of a Personality, He skewed 393 00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:42,440 it and left out big meaty chunks of what went on that the records revealed. 394 00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:49,239 He also disguised the woman's name, changed a lot of the detail to 395 00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:55,039 disguise her name because Clara Fowler wound up marrying one of the doctors that treated 396 00:37:55,039 --> 00:38:00,320 her, one of the members of Prince's team, doctor George Waterman, up 397 00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:07,440 marrying him and becoming a socialite, one of the Beacon Hill socialites. So 398 00:38:07,519 --> 00:38:12,760 to keep her name disguised and to put like for example, murders and things 399 00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:20,679 like that excise those from the record really put forward a skewed version of this 400 00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:24,239 case, even to the point where, now if you look it up in 401 00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:31,280 a medical textbook, you know, the case of the disguised name was Christine 402 00:38:31,519 --> 00:38:36,400 Beacham. If you were to look that up, it would talk about the 403 00:38:36,519 --> 00:38:42,519 demon as a character named Sally, who was mischievous, who was a rebel 404 00:38:43,079 --> 00:38:50,159 who you know, created havoc, but not not someone who was capable of 405 00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:55,719 murder, not someone who wanted to kill the host Clara Fowler. So it 406 00:38:55,760 --> 00:39:01,800 took on a whole different spin because they wanted to spin it away from spiritualism, 407 00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:08,920 away from psychoanalysis, but mostly spiritualism, into the realm of modern psychiatry 408 00:39:09,039 --> 00:39:15,760 and science. I mean that makes a lot of sense. From that time 409 00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:24,039 period, everything was starting to change over towards being more scientifically based. Yes, 410 00:39:27,679 --> 00:39:39,559 but yet you're dealing with phenomenon that defies scientific explanation, especially with the 411 00:39:40,679 --> 00:39:52,800 as you pointed out, the the time, the missing time, the voice 412 00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:59,440 changes, the physical changes to her face. Yes, you know, how 413 00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:02,840 can you explained that through scientific means? Yeah? You know, there's a 414 00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:06,519 debate that goes on, and this is one of the charms I think of 415 00:40:06,559 --> 00:40:10,159 the book is that it really is viewed from a couple points of view. 416 00:40:10,199 --> 00:40:17,880 One is Hogson is the psychic researcher, and Prince the materialist scientists. If 417 00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:22,559 I may, I'd just like to maybe read a short clip from it that 418 00:40:22,639 --> 00:40:27,000 shows Hogson and Prince arguing about this. Sure it could be my guest. 419 00:40:27,559 --> 00:40:31,920 So this is doctor Morton Prince talking to Hogson and the group. Throughout the 420 00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:37,880 ages, diseases of the mind have been falsely labeled demonic possession by those who 421 00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:44,000 would have us believe supernatural entities creep into the natural world, ghosts, which 422 00:40:44,079 --> 00:40:47,480 is devils. Have we learned nothing from the work of Charcot on the pathology 423 00:40:47,519 --> 00:40:52,679 of hysteria and epilepsy? Think for a moment about the poor souls subjected to 424 00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:58,920 unspeakable tortures, women burned at the stake here in Massachusetts, no less in 425 00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:02,639 the name of religion, and believe in evil incarnate When, as Turett proved, 426 00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:08,239 the symptoms associated with Tourette's syndrome have nothing to do with demons and everything 427 00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:13,480 to do with a chemical imbalance in the brain. Now, Hogson argues, 428 00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:19,119 listen, please, we have a set of symptoms manifested by a second consciousness. 429 00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:23,360 As proved by you. It takes possession of miss Fowler's body, claiming 430 00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:28,440 to be spirit, despises her, threatens her, and has driven her to 431 00:41:28,519 --> 00:41:32,599 the brink of destruction. Given these facts, one can label her disorder anything 432 00:41:32,679 --> 00:41:37,920 one chooses, But a name doesn't explain a phenomenon that's existed in every corner 433 00:41:37,960 --> 00:41:43,320 of the world for thousands of years. Gregory of Tours, who reported the 434 00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:46,480 possession of a young girl who took on not only the voice but the appearance 435 00:41:46,519 --> 00:41:52,039 of a Persian man who died decades before, the seventeenth century case of Elizabeth 436 00:41:52,119 --> 00:42:00,000 Knapp, who read her exorcist thoughts, predicting future events through messages spontaneous spontaneous, 437 00:42:00,119 --> 00:42:05,119 the erupting on her body, and today, the anthropologist Juno's account of 438 00:42:05,159 --> 00:42:08,320 a possessed woman in Africa who vanished from her home one night and was found 439 00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:13,679 the following morning on top of a tree. Afterwards, she glided down head 440 00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:16,840 first, flicking her tongue in and out like a serpent. She then hung 441 00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:22,360 suspended for a time and began to speak in a language later identified as Aramaic. 442 00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:29,039 How do you account for these prints anecdotes, that's what you're putting forward? 443 00:42:29,079 --> 00:42:32,320 Hogson, Where are the doctors, Where are the clinicians, scientists who 444 00:42:32,320 --> 00:42:37,519 would document these stories? With that? Without that, we have what we 445 00:42:37,639 --> 00:42:45,360 always have in spiritualist arguments, hearsay, fraud, misunderstood symptoms leading to misdiagnosis, 446 00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:49,880 and mythology. To that, I say, angels, ghosts, hobgoblins. 447 00:42:50,159 --> 00:42:54,079 Show me your face. Hogson stepped up to impleting. Don't you see 448 00:42:54,119 --> 00:43:00,079 Morton? Can you not bring yourself to understand the great mystery we stand on 449 00:43:00,199 --> 00:43:05,400 the threshold of solving? I beg you consider at least the possibility that here, 450 00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:09,000 at last, in the city of Boston eighteen ninety eight, is tangible 451 00:43:09,079 --> 00:43:15,960 evidence of transcendence. If there are demons, there must be angels and probably 452 00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:19,599 a god and a life everlasting. You asked me, where are the doctors 453 00:43:19,599 --> 00:43:25,760 and clinicians, Doctor Prince. We are the doctors, We are the clinicians, 454 00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:34,000 very very good arguments. Yeah, and they are because it almost depends. 455 00:43:34,639 --> 00:43:37,840 It almost depends a lot, like you know, alien abduction and all 456 00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:40,320 of it. What lens do you want to look through to see it? 457 00:43:42,239 --> 00:43:45,639 If you're looking through a scientific lens again, I mean you look at something 458 00:43:45,719 --> 00:43:51,039 like light. I mean, we just call it light. We don't really 459 00:43:51,079 --> 00:43:53,960 know what light is. You know, we say that it's waves of energy, 460 00:43:54,280 --> 00:43:58,159 but I mean, we don't see, for example, infrared light. 461 00:43:58,679 --> 00:44:01,719 You know, we don't see micro waves, we don't see radio waves or 462 00:44:02,119 --> 00:44:06,920 you know, uh, you know. So at the end, what we 463 00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:12,280 see is a very very limited view of the world through a particular lens. 464 00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:15,079 And as he says, like what you want to call it, you know, 465 00:44:15,199 --> 00:44:17,960 you call it what you want. Call it an angel an angel, 466 00:44:19,079 --> 00:44:22,920 call it an interdimensional being, call it demon a demon, call it an 467 00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:27,599 evil interdimensional being. These are just labels. But at the end, the 468 00:44:27,679 --> 00:44:35,079 point is they exist. That's the point. That's something that's been fascinating me. 469 00:44:35,599 --> 00:44:45,719 Where I've my research has branched off into these last few years because with 470 00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:50,639 you know, I've I've studied the paranormal for many years. I've done my 471 00:44:50,760 --> 00:45:00,519 investigations, and my point of view has changed so much because what we're dealing 472 00:45:00,639 --> 00:45:07,639 with is our perception of reality, which is, like you mentioned, it's 473 00:45:07,679 --> 00:45:15,000 like looking at the visible light spectrum, what our eyes can see, where 474 00:45:15,039 --> 00:45:21,880 there's so much going on either direction in the electromagnetic spectrum. Yet we hold 475 00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:30,119 and especially science holds that well, our reality is anything that we can bring 476 00:45:30,159 --> 00:45:34,800 into the lab, look under a microscope, or be able to repeat results 477 00:45:35,079 --> 00:45:43,840 or whatnot. When the true nature of our reality is way more out there 478 00:45:44,159 --> 00:45:52,239 and crazy sounding than people realize. When you start talking about interdimensional beings, 479 00:45:52,280 --> 00:46:00,159 you start talking about the idea of multiple dimensions, creatures that come in and 480 00:46:00,239 --> 00:46:07,920 out of existence like what was documented on the Skinwalker ranch, you the reality 481 00:46:08,000 --> 00:46:15,800 is far more stranger than we can imagine, exactly. And you know, 482 00:46:15,840 --> 00:46:22,519 I'm just reading a book called The Case Against Reality, and this fellow quoting 483 00:46:22,639 --> 00:46:30,079 of Francis Crick, the founder a co founder of DNA, he said, 484 00:46:30,119 --> 00:46:37,800 the chances that we have any idea what reality really is is zero. Yep, 485 00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:43,519 exactly, we have no idea. But my conclusion and looking at all 486 00:46:43,519 --> 00:46:51,440 of this, is that we see a very tiny pinhole into what we call 487 00:46:51,519 --> 00:46:55,519 reality. Even if what we see is real is questionable, the point being 488 00:46:57,400 --> 00:47:05,480 I would suggest that nine of reality, as human beings know it, is 489 00:47:05,519 --> 00:47:12,079 spiritual or what we would interpret as spiritual, yes, or what we would 490 00:47:12,119 --> 00:47:15,440 interpret a spirit in other words, invisible to the eye, about higher, 491 00:47:15,760 --> 00:47:22,679 higher or even lower frequencies. Everything is energy, everything is vibration. We 492 00:47:22,679 --> 00:47:30,920 we are able to experience certain vibrations, but there are some that are outside 493 00:47:30,960 --> 00:47:39,079 of our senses, like you have. I'm having trouble remembering here you have 494 00:47:39,199 --> 00:47:49,480 ultra low frequencies that are low human hearing, but they can cause physical reactions 495 00:47:49,719 --> 00:47:57,559 in a person ultrasound infrasound, and same thing with light. You know, 496 00:47:57,599 --> 00:48:01,800 we can we can't see infrared light. Now we have cameras and scopes that 497 00:48:01,880 --> 00:48:10,440 can see into the infrared spectrum for night vision, and now they have some 498 00:48:10,639 --> 00:48:21,360 ultraviolet technology that can view a different light spectrum, but it's still very, 499 00:48:21,519 --> 00:48:27,400 very narrow. One of the things also again as a as an investigator, 500 00:48:28,199 --> 00:48:32,199 and you can tell me your thoughts on this because you mentioned you mentioned how 501 00:48:32,239 --> 00:48:38,320 there are more cases of demonic possession. But one of the issues that I've 502 00:48:38,400 --> 00:48:51,760 had in the last twenty years is the demonic is so popular in especially Western 503 00:48:51,800 --> 00:48:57,760 culture, especially in America, where all the TV shows and all of the 504 00:48:58,199 --> 00:49:02,519 you know, the movies, everything is demonic. That's what sells that extreme 505 00:49:04,360 --> 00:49:10,760 fear. When in all the years that I've been investigating, I've never encountered 506 00:49:10,880 --> 00:49:15,800 what I would consider be a demonic case. People would call me up freaking 507 00:49:15,840 --> 00:49:21,039 out over something and then I find out they've watched too many episodes of those 508 00:49:21,159 --> 00:49:25,719 Hunters one of these other shows, and there's nothing really there, or if 509 00:49:25,719 --> 00:49:30,880 there's something there, it's nothing to be afraid of. Also, we did 510 00:49:30,920 --> 00:49:38,800 this long standing case over here in Bloomingdale where multiple houses on the same street 511 00:49:38,840 --> 00:49:45,559 were experiencing activity, and we took years. We went back over a few 512 00:49:45,639 --> 00:49:53,079 years investigating whatever was there was attached to the land. It wasn't human, 513 00:49:54,199 --> 00:50:01,599 and it had qualities that were negative at times, others that were just it 514 00:50:01,719 --> 00:50:07,760 was just there, maybe mischievous, something that people would call on elemental. 515 00:50:10,400 --> 00:50:15,360 I've also did. I did investigations one time down and deep in a cave 516 00:50:15,440 --> 00:50:22,400 in Colorado where nobody's ever, no record of anybody ever dying. The furthest 517 00:50:22,440 --> 00:50:25,159 area. Back in the cave, we were allowed to go. We did 518 00:50:25,199 --> 00:50:31,320 an investigation, and I had so many things happening, and then it hit 519 00:50:31,400 --> 00:50:37,719 me, why is this cave showing paranormal activity. I even got voices on 520 00:50:37,800 --> 00:50:45,760 EVP saying get out. And it took a while to realize that probably we 521 00:50:45,760 --> 00:50:51,239 weren't dealing with human spirits at all. We're dealing with something else, some 522 00:50:51,320 --> 00:50:55,199 type of elemental, some things that live underground. My old miners used to 523 00:50:55,280 --> 00:51:00,639 talk about Tommy Knockers and things in the mind, things that live underground, 524 00:51:00,719 --> 00:51:08,239 and things in the natural world that appear paranormal to us but are still a 525 00:51:08,280 --> 00:51:12,320 part of our reality. Yeah. Well, I mean, you can call 526 00:51:12,360 --> 00:51:16,360 it primortal, but I mean, in my view, the battle, the 527 00:51:16,400 --> 00:51:22,639 battle between good and evil goes on moment to moment, with humans sort of 528 00:51:22,639 --> 00:51:27,800 in the middle and the prize being you want to call it, the souls, 529 00:51:27,840 --> 00:51:37,880 the spirits, the life of human beings in the balance. And I 530 00:51:37,920 --> 00:51:42,000 believe that inside us were tugged to this direction or that. But in some 531 00:51:42,079 --> 00:51:46,840 cases, in some cases you have a mother Teresa tugged in one direction and 532 00:51:46,920 --> 00:51:52,880 in another you have Jack the Ripper tugged in another. But at these extremes 533 00:51:52,320 --> 00:51:57,639 you look at something that you might call a saint, and in the other 534 00:51:57,719 --> 00:52:09,519 extreme you look at something that might be called demonic. Interesting, there are 535 00:52:13,800 --> 00:52:20,159 trying to figure out how to make this point. There are a lot of 536 00:52:20,239 --> 00:52:29,360 cases of people who report near death experiences. Yes, and I've been I've 537 00:52:29,360 --> 00:52:34,960 been watching a lot of videos of people recounting their near death experiences lately. 538 00:52:36,000 --> 00:52:39,920 And if you and again, that's a whole nother show in itself, but 539 00:52:42,400 --> 00:52:45,119 went in a way. In a way, it's very much related Mark because 540 00:52:45,679 --> 00:52:50,360 it talks about a spiritual world, spirit world, a world that's different the 541 00:52:50,480 --> 00:52:53,840 other world is all this Huxley called it. See my view of it, 542 00:52:55,800 --> 00:53:02,119 and it's my personal view. Is the fact that these demonic possessions, these 543 00:53:02,159 --> 00:53:08,800 demons, put the body through hell, put the person through hell, torment 544 00:53:08,920 --> 00:53:13,760 them and to the point of where the goal is for them to die. 545 00:53:15,199 --> 00:53:22,880 And yet I also believe our souls, our spirits are immortal, yes, 546 00:53:22,920 --> 00:53:30,039 and we come back many times. So I've always likened some of these darker 547 00:53:30,280 --> 00:53:36,199 entities, the demons or whatever we want to call them, yes, more 548 00:53:36,239 --> 00:53:43,840 as like an intelligent parasite, because they attach themselves to a person yeah yeah, 549 00:53:43,880 --> 00:53:49,480 and feed off their energy, and they do everything to createative negative emotions, 550 00:53:50,079 --> 00:53:54,320 negative feelings, scare the hell out of people because that's what they feed 551 00:53:54,360 --> 00:53:59,840 off of. And the more they can scare the person or torture them or 552 00:54:00,039 --> 00:54:05,079 even like say a household of people, they feed off of that negative energy 553 00:54:05,119 --> 00:54:09,760 and get stronger and stronger. When the person dies, Ah, they just 554 00:54:09,840 --> 00:54:14,800 move on to the next victim. Yes, Yes, As a matter of 555 00:54:14,840 --> 00:54:22,400 fact, There's an interesting dialogue in the book where Leonora Piper asks the demonic 556 00:54:22,440 --> 00:54:29,000 presence why do you do this? And basically the answer is this, why 557 00:54:29,079 --> 00:54:32,320 do I bother with a pathetic blank like Clara Valor, I do it because 558 00:54:32,360 --> 00:54:38,079 it's my job. God is dead, Jesus in hell. Yet moment to 559 00:54:38,159 --> 00:54:43,840 moment we fight for the souls of humans, sometimes by the thousands, often 560 00:54:43,920 --> 00:54:49,000 one at a time, each a small or momentous victory, and we celebrate 561 00:54:49,079 --> 00:54:52,360 those victories. He swore, truly we do. And then she utters God 562 00:54:53,239 --> 00:54:59,760 attired general, incompetent, blithering angels have lost confidence. And I'm knowing the 563 00:54:59,760 --> 00:55:04,239 power the forces I command. I think the English would say, he let 564 00:55:04,320 --> 00:55:09,800 his side down. It crept toward her another secret it. Most are borderlined, 565 00:55:09,840 --> 00:55:15,199 but occasionally we come upon a special case. Boreden Holmes, the Ripper, 566 00:55:15,599 --> 00:55:19,760 countless others whose names you'll never know, and these, by their own 567 00:55:19,880 --> 00:55:24,800 choosing, become me evil incarnate, prowling the earth with one purpose to reduce 568 00:55:24,920 --> 00:55:31,960 God's so called creations to the British animals I know them to be. That 569 00:55:32,199 --> 00:55:39,920 is utterly fascinating, Thank you, That is utterly fascinating to hear that kind 570 00:55:40,000 --> 00:55:46,960 of perspective supposedly, now that was was that taken from actual transcripts? What 571 00:55:47,079 --> 00:55:52,039 happened with that is a lot of the language is older English, you know, 572 00:55:52,159 --> 00:55:58,800 like Wence and Wildst and things like that. So it's the it's it's 573 00:55:58,840 --> 00:56:01,760 the language that I've change, not the message. Okay, yeah, okay, 574 00:56:02,119 --> 00:56:07,559 got it. You know, in how many in all the time that 575 00:56:07,639 --> 00:56:16,519 she was being treated, how long was she suffering from this until she was 576 00:56:16,719 --> 00:56:22,000 had the exorcism? Well, actually, yeah, so I'll tell you a 577 00:56:22,039 --> 00:56:25,800 little bit more about the exorcism moment. But to answer your question, the 578 00:56:25,960 --> 00:56:31,159 entire process took from eighteen ninety eight to nineteen oh four, so basically six 579 00:56:31,239 --> 00:56:36,480 years. Wow. Yeah, so it was a horror story from her point 580 00:56:36,480 --> 00:56:39,440 of view, to say the least. In terms of the exorcism. Hodgson, 581 00:56:39,719 --> 00:56:43,480 you know, wanted to have an exorcism. So did Piper. Of 582 00:56:43,480 --> 00:56:45,400 course, you know, that's their point of view. The lens. They 583 00:56:45,440 --> 00:56:52,760 look at this through Waterman and Prince with a materialists did an exorcism. But 584 00:56:52,800 --> 00:57:00,880 it was Prince that did the exorcism, and he used the language and Bible 585 00:57:00,920 --> 00:57:06,039 and whatnot for foreign exorcism, but he did it himself. And the idea 586 00:57:06,320 --> 00:57:12,559 was that if she believed she was possessed by a demon, an exorcism would 587 00:57:12,559 --> 00:57:17,159 work based on shock value. Of course, Hogson looked at it from a 588 00:57:17,280 --> 00:57:23,840 very different point of view, and that the exorcist and exorcism would would send 589 00:57:23,840 --> 00:57:32,880 the send the demonic presence back to hell. Hmm. Very interesting point. 590 00:57:34,360 --> 00:57:40,880 The the Clara Feller, I mean, displayed all kinds of of clairvoyance and 591 00:57:42,000 --> 00:57:47,159 uh and uh incredible strength and violence, you know, you know, incredible 592 00:57:47,239 --> 00:57:53,159 violence. But at the end the demon sort of surrendered and basically said, 593 00:57:53,159 --> 00:57:57,119 you know, I have better things to do with my time than this. 594 00:58:00,360 --> 00:58:04,159 Okay, I guess the demon got bored well, as it was the second 595 00:58:04,159 --> 00:58:07,960 demon. It started with a lesser demon, a bad Dawn was the name, 596 00:58:08,400 --> 00:58:14,760 and then which means changer of shapes in Greek. And then it moved 597 00:58:14,760 --> 00:58:20,000 on to a much higher presence. I call it Satan, although it was 598 00:58:20,039 --> 00:58:24,639 never identified as Satan per se. But this was a different, different presence 599 00:58:25,079 --> 00:58:30,800 and one that was let's say, not so brutish and a lot more clever 600 00:58:31,239 --> 00:58:37,039 hm hmmm. And this is, by the way, had designs on World 601 00:58:37,119 --> 00:58:43,880 War One. Okay. Talking about his vision of the world, you know, 602 00:58:44,480 --> 00:58:47,159 his vision of the world was you know, was absolute slaughter, you 603 00:58:47,159 --> 00:58:57,599 know, massacre when you when you mentioned that the demon was more cunning for 604 00:58:57,800 --> 00:59:02,639 me the in the original movie The Xist. For me, the scenes that 605 00:59:02,760 --> 00:59:09,320 I was most fascinating, fascinated with was the conversations with the demon exactly, 606 00:59:09,880 --> 00:59:16,320 even though you know he was obviously screwing with Carris's head. Yes, but 607 00:59:16,400 --> 00:59:22,880 yet at the same time is just revealing the personality. I don't know, 608 00:59:23,000 --> 00:59:28,760 I just always liked that better than pea soup and stuff like that. Yeah, 609 00:59:28,840 --> 00:59:31,599 yeah, absolutely, And I'll tell you, really, one of the 610 00:59:31,719 --> 00:59:37,800 charms about The Unwelcomed I think, is just that that really you have full 611 00:59:37,920 --> 00:59:45,960 blown dialogues and you really sort of catch an insight into what evil is about, 612 00:59:46,039 --> 00:59:52,480 and that evil is something that exists, and it doesn't have much to 613 00:59:52,519 --> 00:59:55,199 do with peace soup, although there are cases like that. What it has 614 00:59:55,239 --> 01:00:07,440 to do with is just business, violence and and a bedlong I guess something 615 01:00:07,480 --> 01:00:12,519 like that. Wow, Well, I'm actually looking forward. I had started 616 01:00:12,559 --> 01:00:15,840 reading some of the book and I'm looking forward to reading the rest because now 617 01:00:15,880 --> 01:00:22,360 you got me really hooked, and I'm definitely looking forward to that. Now 618 01:00:23,320 --> 01:00:30,599 the unwelcomed. Where can people find your book? Well, I'll tell you 619 01:00:30,639 --> 01:00:36,519 what the unwelcome the uh, the Curious Case of Claire Feller Ron Felber. 620 01:00:37,199 --> 01:00:39,159 It's on Amazon right now. It can be ordered on Amazon. It can 621 01:00:39,199 --> 01:00:45,599 be ordered on Barnes and Noble and any any of the online bookstores, and 622 01:00:45,639 --> 01:00:52,480 it will be distributed next month into regular bookstores, concrete and mortar buildings. 623 01:00:52,719 --> 01:00:58,159 Oh online right now? Excellent, excellent, Okay. I think I'm gonna 624 01:00:58,159 --> 01:01:01,760 pick me up a hardcover copy of it anyway, Ron, thank you so 625 01:01:01,920 --> 01:01:12,960 much for coming back on This has been very enlightening and I'm chilling Gary book. 626 01:01:13,920 --> 01:01:16,519 Yeah, very book. My wife read it and said she didn't sleep 627 01:01:16,519 --> 01:01:22,840 for three nights. I guess that's some kind of a testimony. Well, 628 01:01:23,280 --> 01:01:28,159 hopefully people get out there and get your book, and I hope it's a 629 01:01:28,199 --> 01:01:31,599 great success for you and we'll have to have you on again in the near 630 01:01:31,639 --> 01:01:36,239 future. I chill like that a lot, Mark. Thank you. Okay, 631 01:01:36,320 --> 01:01:38,360 Well, thank you, Ron, and thank you everybody for tuning in 632 01:01:38,440 --> 01:01:45,039 to another edition of the Paranormal UK Radio Show, the flagship show on the 633 01:01:45,039 --> 01:01:51,800 Paranormal UK Radio Network. And normally i'd ask Irene where could people find us, 634 01:01:51,840 --> 01:01:58,320 and she would tell you everywhere, all the platforms you can find our 635 01:01:58,440 --> 01:02:04,000 network and our show. We will be back in a couple of weeks with 636 01:02:04,119 --> 01:02:07,320 another new show, so we look forward talking to you all then hopefully Irene 637 01:02:07,320 --> 01:02:13,159 will be back with me at that time, and take care of yourself, 638 01:02:13,320 --> 01:02:15,199 be good humans, and we'll talk to you soon