You're listening to the Paranormal UK Radio Network, the best in paranormal talk radio
in the UK and around the world. What's you through that the impossible or
whatever I may improbable must be true about and it is not a question of
the all a touch of mysticism is today It is empires as a host of
ben souls and pnomas, my father spirit, dude, a certain termed the
Night Journey. Old gods aren't dead and what is the true God? He's
dead? You can't complain. People assume the time is a strict progression of
course to effect, but actually from a nonlinear, non subjective viewpoint, it's
more like a big ball of weiby wobbly thymey, whymy stuff. You're listening
to Paranormal UK Radio. Greetings everyone, and welcome to the Paranoral UK Radio
Show, the flagship show here on the Paranormal UK Radio Network. I'm Mark
Johnson and normally I am joined by our host Irene Allen. Unfortunately she's not
able to be here right now, and I want to take an opportunity to
explain to those of you who follow us what's been going on the last few
months. This is the first show that we're doing for the twenty twenty four
season, and the reason it's taken so long had to do with several medical
issues that sprung up between both myself and I. Even though we're on different
sides of the pond, each of us has been dealing with something. Now
her issues, I don't feel at liberty to discuss. She wants to bring
it up the next time she's on she can. But for me, it
all started New Year's Day. New Year's Day, I got sick with COVID,
so I was down and out for a couple of weeks. Then I
uh two weeks later, had a heart attack and that took me by surprise.
Thankfully it was a mild heart attack, but still they did a cathardization
on me to see if they could put in some stints, and they found
that the blockages were so severe they brought me in for a quintuple bypass their
treat So I spent a couple of weeks in the hospital, then a couple
more weeks recuperating at my sister in law's house because I couldn't be alone.
Finally I came home and I would be back sooner, but I was dealing
with this weird, horrible cough that wouldn't go away, and I kept complaining
to my doctors about it, and nobody really seemed to be taking it seriously.
I finally had to go in and really complain and they put me on
some prendizone steroids and it knocked it right out. Now I still get little
coughing fits here and there. You can hear my voice is a little bit
of a huskiness to it, but I'm much much better. I've got a
clean bill of health. I've been told to go out and live life,
which is what I intend to do. And we're going to be moving forward
with the Paranormal UK radio show. I'm lining up some great guests for the
future. We have a great guest tonight that I can't wait to tell you
about, and hopefully Irene is able to join me by the next show.
So we're getting back into the saddle and better late than never. So we're
going to move forward from here. So I want to introduce tonight's guest,
and he has been a guest with us before in the Past's author Ron Felber
Now. Ron is a graduate of George University, Leola University and Drew University
where you earned his doctorate. He began writing stories for True Detective magazine,
and he also has written several other books. Now, one book we had
him on the show for was The Mahave Incident, which if you haven't read
that book, oh God, you please, you need to go read it.
That was one of the most wild and intense stories of a UFO alien
encounter. And I don't necessarily call it an abduction, but what this couple
who were camping out in the Mojave Desert in California went through really really is
incredible. So right now we're having him on for his brand new book,
which is titled The Unwelcomed The Curious Case of Clara Fowler, which is based
on a true medical case history passed on to Ron by no less than William
Peter Bladdie, the author of the Original Exorcist. And this is another tale
of demonic possession based on real case study, and we're excited to talk to
him about it. So Ron, welcome to the program. Ron. How
are you doing. I'm doing just fine. Mark. It's good to be
on your show again. It's been a while. Yeah, it's been quite
a while. When we last had you on for your book the Mahave incident
and just a moment ago I was raving about it. That had to be
one of the most I don't know how to describe it. It's so unbelievable
in so many different ways to think that that actually happened to that couple.
And the high strangeness, and I mean there was some high strangeness exactly associated
with that case was just I want to say, it's almost unbelievable, but
I believe it. It's just it's amazing. And how much of that was
real? How much of that was screen memories? No, it was real,
I mean everything, every this is what happened. I mean, I
met the Hesses through a friend I was. I was CEO of a company
at the time, and I hired a salesman in California and we became friends.
So when I was on the East coast, he was on the west,
and when we would meet to work, we'd have dinner because we were
friendly and you know, talk about families and you know whatever. And he
said, you know, I know you're a writer. And I published a
number of books at that time, even and he said, I have this
story. The people don't want to talk about it. But he's my best
friend. I played football with him in college. He's an All league football
player. He's married to the most delightful woman you could imagine. They have
two children. He's got a great job. He's a management you know,
a construction manager for shopping malls and large projects. So assault of the Earth
kind of people. They don't want to talk about it because it's so upsetting.
On the other hand, you're a writer. I trust you. I
know that it would be helpful to them to tell their story. So reluctantly,
I didn't really want to write a book about alien abduction. It really
wasn't on my radar screen at the time. And I said, all right,
look, it's a friend of yours. If you say it's a great
story, etc. So I met them and they told me the very beginning
reluctantly, though, I must say, the very beginning of the story.
And a UFO that was the size of a football field. And as soon
as I heard that, I was like you, I said, let me
visualize this. A UFO the size of a football field. He goes,
yeah, we were in a valley and the Mohave Desert mountains around us,
and it cap literally capped the valley, and at that stage of the game,
I said, you know, maybe this is just crazy. But then
he continued described the terrible nightmares they were experiencing, the sexual dysfunction, insomnia,
no appetite, really all of these symptoms let's say of a pow returning
from war, you know, where you've been deprived of freedom and deprived of
food, et cetera. Just really really shaken to the core. And I
said, well, I have to take this seriously, and I did,
and we took them to the National Center of Psychiatry in Washington, d C.
Where they were evaluated. They had no they were not prone to fantasy,
they were not you know, I had any mental illness. They were
very fact based, successful and you know, straightforward individuals. Then I took
them for a light detective test, which they both passed, and then finally
I had them retrogressed for the part of the abduction that they didn't remember and
were having horrible nightmares about. So I totally understand where you're coming from.
But I taped them for hours and hours, and everything that's in the book
came from the tapes, so it is it is fact based. Wow.
Wow, I know, I recommend if anybody wants to hear more about that
book, it isn't our archives. So if you go to our mainly on
our account anywhere that our platform, Apple Music, Spreaker, everywhere, you
can just do a search on Ron Felber and the interview will come up and
you can listen to that one. But now today we're here to talk about
the Unwelcomed or the Curious Case of Clara Fowler. Yes, and there seems
to be a well, tell us a little bit how you came about to
write about this book and your approach to writing it so well, you know,
it's a great story really because I first came upon this story in nineteen
seventy two, Yeah, when William Peter Bladdie was filming The Exorcist at Georgetown
University. I was a sophomore in college there, and I was a writer.
Even then. I'd been writing short stories and writing you know things,
and I had my first book, my first novel. So I said to
myself, you know, here's a guy who has a best seller on the
New York Times bestseller list, The Exorcist for fifty six weeks. I've got
to meet this guy. I want to be a writer desperately. I have
my first novel. Maybe he'll read it. I can get him to read
it, he'll like it and help me get it published. So they were
filming, he and Billy Friedkin and the crew at Georgetown, and I couldn't
meet him because everything was cordoned off and police and whatnot, you know,
for the filming. But I knew that I'd learned that he had an office
in Arlington, Virginia, right across the Key Bridge, right across the Potomac
River from Georgia Town. So I went there. I met with his administrative
assistant, and I brought my manuscript and I said, you know, I
really really would appreciate it if you could give this to mister Bladdie and ask
him to read it, and if he likes it very much, there's a
phone number there, and you know, maybe he could contact me because I'd
love to discuss it with him. So she said, well, I have
about one hundred manuscripts behind me from all over the world of young writers,
old writers and middle aged writers whatever that want to get their book to mister
Bladdie so that he'll help them publish it. I'll put it in the Pile.
I said, no, please don't do that. I like him.
I'm a student at Georgetown and I'm here in front of you. I'm not
sending this by mail. I'm handing it to you personally. I said,
I come from Newark, New Jersey. That's where I grew up. He
grew up in the Bronx. We were both here on scholarship for writing.
I'm very much like he was twenty years ago. So please tell him that.
Tell him that I am William Peter Bladie, only younger, and please
look at my book. So he said, I'll tell you what. I'll
give it to him and tell you what I said. After that. It's
up to him and you know, and we'll leave it at that. But
I promised to you I will hand it to him personally. So, as
it turns out, he called me. He did call me to home over
Thanksgiving holiday in New Jersey and told me he liked the book we met.
He didn't help me get that book published, but he helped me get a
different book published. But more than that, he gave me the idea and
gifted me the story for the Unwelcomed The Curious Case of Clara Fowler. He
had been researching the Exorcist and came across a case at Harvard University Medical School
that happened in eighteen ninety eight eight teen ninety eight to nineteen oh four,
where a young Radcliffe student came to doctor Morton Prince and William James, the
famous William James, the father really of abnormal psychiatry, and Richard Hogson and
doctor George Waterman. A team that was formed to study this woman who had
all of the signs of demonic possession. Her voice would change to a man's
voice, this horrific, explosive voice, her face would remold she had the
strength of ten men. She exhibited clairvoyance and spoken languages that she had no
way of knowing, and raged at religious objects the Bible, rosary, beads,
church. They studied her in this second state at great You know,
it took great pains to study as scientists would the second consciousness, as they
called it. The experienced no pain, no need of food or sleep,
experienced no illness, experienced no fatigue, and was awake twenty four to seven.
So the girl's body could withstand all that. Well, that's really a
very interesting point because what happened was the demonic presence knew or learned that the
weaker the body was, the easier it was for it to come in control
of the body, and so the demon made a practiced regimen of keeping her
awake at night with incredibly horrible nightmares, so she was afraid to sleep go
to sleep. When she tried to eat, maggots would be in her food,
and she would visualize maggots, hallucinate magnets and maggots in her food,
so she wouldn't eat, and it would have missed. She would have missing
time where the demonic presence would take her on walks, long long walks,
sometimes without shoes, et cetera, and she'd wake up hours later not knowing
where she was or how she got there, and she'd have to figure out
her way home. At night, it would she would wake up in the
morning to do letters that the demonic presence would write. As a matter of
fact, I have one of them right here. Hypocrite orror, how I
hate you. The pains of hell shall come down upon thee. You shall
find no help, no comfort in heaven or help, or no heaven or
earth from my wrath, not till student Clara is dead. And puts a
bullet through her head. Devil, devil, devil. Well, so,
yes, she was on the verge of total physical collapse through much of this,
and they tried every method available to them and eventually wound up going to
exorcism. Yeah. Crazy story, really an incredible story. Again, this
was a woman, a young woman twenty two years old from Radcliffe College,
documented to the t because Prince had a stenographer there for the hypnotic sessions and
for the you know, the psychiatric sessions. There were letters between them like
that, letters from the demonic presence to her. All of this was like
a treasure trove of information at the Harvard Medical School Library, where Bill Bladdie
had called ahead to the curator and said, you know, I have a
young man that that's writing a book. I'd appreciate it if you would allow
him into the library and give him access to all these records. Fantastic.
There's a couple of interesting things. One question is you chose to write this
book as more of a novel, yes, in fiction, fiction, instead
of like going through and recounting as a more like a documentary. Wow,
why did you choose that out lot? You know, that's another great question,
because I did try to do it as a documentary. So I was
twenty let me think nineteen twenty one, maybe twenty two years old myself when
I tried to write it after Blintie. I did the research. I had
tons of research, probably too much research really from my standpoint, because it
was overwhelming and as a young writer who'd really been writing like spy novels,
action adventure stories, things that took place today, you know, in the
current environment, as opposed to eighteen ninety eight or nineteen oh four when the
case ended. So I tried it as a documentary, but frankly, I
just didn't have the talent to pull it off. It's very difficult to do
either way. But the documentary came off like a medical textbook, and I
didn't want that because it really, as dramatic and incredible as the story was,
fact by fact, it needed more than just to say this is what
happened. It needed to be told like a story. So, for example,
if we took history and I told you about I don't know, the
Battle of Waterloo, you know, Napoleon and Wellington at the Battle of water
and I just gave you facts it happened on this date. You know,
it was a sunny day, it was a cloudy day. Napoleon is five
foot seven inches tall. It really it gives you information, but it doesn't
give you the feeling. It doesn't give you the soul of what went on.
And so much later after I failed it writing it the first time,
I about three years ago, I said, you know, all this information,
this has got to be the best story I've ever come across. Let
me try it with a different voice. And the voice would be something like,
Mark, You're next next to me in a coffee shop. I have
a cup of coffee and you have a cup of coffee, and I say,
you know, Mark, I'm going to tell you a story that is
incredible. You know. It's the most documented story of demonic possession probably ever,
and it started like this. That's a kind of voice, a storytelling
voice that allows you to allows you some room in terms of feelings. A
documentary doesn't give you that, like fear, the terror this woman experience,
the depression, you know, the idea that she was literally in hell and
couldn't get out. You know, those kind of expressions what I just told
you don't really have a place in the documentary but those kind of expressions,
feelings and emotions and things like fear, things like anticipation, you can do.
So I call it a novel, but it's a novel based on a
true story. You know. Blatty himself when he wrote The Exorcist, even
though he wrote it as a novel, he based it on a case in
the nineteen fifties where a boy was possessed, so he was able to take
elements of that create the novel than actually the screenplay, which for me,
it's one of my favorite movies of all time because of the approach William Friedkin
took, which was not to direct it like a horror movie, but direct
it like a documentary exactly. So really it's the combination which is tricky business.
They call it narrative fiction, but the tricky business is to do something
that's fact based in a way that's enticing. And by the way, the
case it was nineteen forty nine in Maryland, the case of the boy that
was possessed. But one of the other cases that Bill Bladie used for The
Exorcist was the Clara Fowler case. Really okay, yes, okay, that's
how he came upon it, you know, in his research for the book
and the movie. Well, some of the elements that you had mentioned that
Clara exhibited when she was being you know, going through therapy, and the
voice changes and the physical changes, all of these wild things that are beyond
belief. And they happened at a time which when America was actually going through
this spiritualism type of revolution, so a lot of it was would be much
more open to the public than say, going through the nineteen fifties and forward,
where everything turned much more religious conservative. And yes, actually to your
point, Prince, when he assembled the team that would study her in this
case, chose William James. And to William James, like I said,
is really the father. He's the first person to teach abnormal psychology at anywhere
in the United States, but he taught it at Harvard Medical School, and
most people consider William James something of a genius. Doctor Morton Prince who was
the primary doctor, and he was a Harvard Medical School graduate that had a
practice and also taught and lectured at Tufts University doctor George Waterman. And George
Waterman was a Harvard graduate and Prince's protege an heir to the Watermen Penn,
the Waterman Penn Dynasty. I guess you'd call it also because of what you're
saying with spiritualism. He added to the team doctor Richard Hodgson, who was
the president of the American Psychical Society Research Society and a spiritualist, and also
Leonora Piper, who was a clairvoyant, so to cover that base, because
if he just took it from a clinical standpoint, people would say, well,
you've directed this towards your theories of medicine. So he wanted to get
a kind of consensus in different points of view on what was happening because it
was truly a phenomenon. Now, in a lot of possession cases, at
least ones that I've heard of, the person who becomes first there's oppression and
then possession, and usually sometimes the person has goes through something very traumatic earlier
in their life. There was also the late father Malachi Martin, Yes,
who always proclaimed that well the person invited it in. Yes, yeah,
they couldn't think the demons couldn't come in less they invited him in. So
what did you find with Clara's case? Well, you know, this is
this is I think maybe one of the reasons that Bill Bladie didn't pursue this
story and went on to something else, was because he looked at it as
a classic case of demonic possession, and that served his purposes in terms of
writing The Exorcist. However, there's much much more to this story than the
possession itself. As a matter of fact, there were three murders involved,
and basically I call this a story of science murder in the paranormal. And
Clara's father was an alcoholic and a wife beater and abusive and probably abusive to
her. There's certainly, you know, fertile ground for that thought that she
was abused, probably sexually. Her two her brother and sister, Bessie and
Charles, both died under suspicious circumstances, so that actually when she was being
treated by doctor Prince, there was a city marshall named Rufus Bassett. They
called him Bassett and nicknamed like a basset hound. Rufus Bassett Hilliard and Bassett.
Hilliard was the investigator for the Lizzie Borden murders in Full River, and
also for the axe murder, and also for the one Corelero murders which happened
believe it or not, within a six month time frame and within a couple
of miles of the Lizzie Borden murders, where one Corelero, a Portuguese worker
farm worker, went into the kitchen of his boss and axe murdered brutally,
acts murdered his wife. Clara, Fowler's brother and sister, Bessie and Charles
died, as I said, under mysterious circumstances, and the city Marshall Rufus
Bassett Hilliard was convinced that her father murdered her brother and sister, and so
he went to Boston looking to have Clara testify against her father, and then
came to find out that she's in Boston all right, a student at Radcliffe,
so she had to drop out, but being treated for what appears to
be demonic possession by doctor Morton Prince. Was there any after the fact,
any suspicion that maybe she did it under the influence, Well, I mean,
I won't get into that, but I will tell you this, Lizzie
Borden had no memory of killing her mother or father, and one of the
reasons she was acquitted, though Bassett knew she was the murderous because he had
evidence that couldn't be submitted in court, but he was convinced she was the
murderous. Nevertheless, she had no memory of it, and so when questioned,
you know, the only thing she was like adamant about was that she
didn't know what happened, and that was pretty believable to a jury. One
Cariarro, who also committed an axe murder right within the same four or five
mile radius as the Fowler murders or children the board and murder, he had
no knowledge of the murder or remembrance and actually went to the town and bought
a pair of shoes directly following the murder. So you have, you know,
two people, all in Fall River, all within a very small geographical
radius that you know, where there's violence, violence that really society had never
seen before, you know, occurring in a small industrial town, Fall River,
Massachusetts, not far from Boston. You know, there's elements to all
of that. You may or may or may not agree with me, but
it's just hitting me because I'm familiar with Laddie's later work, especially the follow
up novel Legion. Yes, they made the movie Exorcist three, which great
movie in a lot of ways. Of course, what they had to put
up with studio interferce and so geez. But like the idea of something going
and possessing people and causing these murders, are causing mayhem and then the people
having no knowledge of it. Yeah, that's not that's not so unusual.
You know. As a matter of fact, I don't know if you know
this about me, Mark, but I was a deputy sheriff for over three
years, three and a half years or so in the Washington, DC area,
and I transported federal prisoners. And you know, a frequent question I
get, is demonic possession real? And I can tell you demonic possession is
very real. It's not necessarily you know, it's not necessarily a name like
Lizzie Borden or or you know somebody famous, Jack the Ripper or j Tolmes.
It's not not necessarily names that you would know. But if you looked
into the eyes of a guy, for example, and I don't want to
be too graphic, but Hell's Angel who kid and tortured to death a fourteen
year old girl. You know, you meet somebody like that, and believe
me, you'll believe in demonic possession. Interesting, the the idea of demonic
possession actually is ages old, goes all the way back to Biblical days.
Yes, in fact, with I don't know, if you've ever watched the
TV show That Chosen, they deal with it several times. I actually,
I actually like the way that they dealt with it in the show. But
for the longest time, you know, you don't really hear too much about
it or other cases throughout history. And it really, even with this case,
didn't get a lot of press or at least not being in the public
consciousness these last fifty sixty years, not like the Exorcist did, and people
was there really a lot going on at that time? I mean, how
often would you would you say if you know that there was people dealing with
actual demonic possession. Well, I'll take it from two standpoints. One is
that you don't hear about demonic possession much anymore. But in fact, demonic
possession has been on the rise for the last twenty years. The Vatican,
as a matter of fact, started began an order of priests that do nothing
but exorcisms. So in the United States, if you went back fifteen or
twenty years, there would have been a handful of exorcists that had been trained
by the Vatican, and they up that number to the point where right now
it's over one hundred and fifty in terms of the Fouler case. So exorcism
is not only around, it's been on the rise for quite some time.
And maybe it's just something that you don't hear about much, but you know,
and it's not just Catholics, it's you know, there's all kinds of
it's go to YouTube, you'll see all kinds of cases about current demonic possession.
The other point I wanted to make was about the Fowler case. One
of the things I mentioned to you was this issue with Facebook, where I'd
said in a video that this was a case that the medical establishment did not
want you to know. Well, basically, as you pointed out, at
the turn of the century, there were two schools of thought, well really
three. One was spiritualism, and there were nine million spiritualists at the time
in the United States and Europe, fair number, and they were successful people.
Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, the author of Sherlock Holmes, Charles Dickens,
Madam Cui, Pierre Gay, the founders of X rays, Sir Joseph Lodge,
a physicist from England, so there were really mainstream names scientists and thinkers
that were spiritualists. William James was one of them. Believed that you could
contact, that there was a spirit world, et cetera. So that was
one school as bought, and that was anathema to Prince, who was a
behaviorist. He believed that there were physical causes, you know, physical origins
for symptoms that were displayed. So for example, schizophrenia, he would say,
it has nothing to do with psychoanalysis. And what Freud would be talking
about out with sexual fantasies and childhood repression, etc. You know, he
thought that was garbage. Rubbish, rubbish is what he called it in an
article. He believed that there were physical causes, you know, the things
that caused mental illness were physical imbalances, chemical imbalances in the brain, lesions,
things of that nature. And then there was Freud who had just written
Interpretations of a Dream in nineteen oh one, which took the world by storm,
the medical community by storm, and he became, you know, a
celebrity, and his views on psychoanalysis were considered gospel. Prince totally disagreed and
thought that this case, this case, if he could show that this woman
who had all the symptoms of demonic possession, which goes back, as you
say, you know, thousands of years to the Bible, probably before he
could show that this was a disease that had a physical cause to it,
that it was maybe as a form of hysteria or a form of some kind
of epilepsy, that if he could prove that, he would overshadow Freud,
not for his own ego, and set the direction for psychiatry going forward into
the twentieth century. As a result of that, he really skewed in his
book which he wrote nineteen oh six, Dissociation of a Personality, He skewed
it and left out big meaty chunks of what went on that the records revealed.
He also disguised the woman's name, changed a lot of the detail to
disguise her name because Clara Fowler wound up marrying one of the doctors that treated
her, one of the members of Prince's team, doctor George Waterman, up
marrying him and becoming a socialite, one of the Beacon Hill socialites. So
to keep her name disguised and to put like for example, murders and things
like that excise those from the record really put forward a skewed version of this
case, even to the point where, now if you look it up in
a medical textbook, you know, the case of the disguised name was Christine
Beacham. If you were to look that up, it would talk about the
demon as a character named Sally, who was mischievous, who was a rebel
who you know, created havoc, but not not someone who was capable of
murder, not someone who wanted to kill the host Clara Fowler. So it
took on a whole different spin because they wanted to spin it away from spiritualism,
away from psychoanalysis, but mostly spiritualism, into the realm of modern psychiatry
and science. I mean that makes a lot of sense. From that time
period, everything was starting to change over towards being more scientifically based. Yes,
but yet you're dealing with phenomenon that defies scientific explanation, especially with the
as you pointed out, the the time, the missing time, the voice
changes, the physical changes to her face. Yes, you know, how
can you explained that through scientific means? Yeah? You know, there's a
debate that goes on, and this is one of the charms I think of
the book is that it really is viewed from a couple points of view.
One is Hogson is the psychic researcher, and Prince the materialist scientists. If
I may, I'd just like to maybe read a short clip from it that
shows Hogson and Prince arguing about this. Sure it could be my guest.
So this is doctor Morton Prince talking to Hogson and the group. Throughout the
ages, diseases of the mind have been falsely labeled demonic possession by those who
would have us believe supernatural entities creep into the natural world, ghosts, which
is devils. Have we learned nothing from the work of Charcot on the pathology
of hysteria and epilepsy? Think for a moment about the poor souls subjected to
unspeakable tortures, women burned at the stake here in Massachusetts, no less in
the name of religion, and believe in evil incarnate When, as Turett proved,
the symptoms associated with Tourette's syndrome have nothing to do with demons and everything
to do with a chemical imbalance in the brain. Now, Hogson argues,
listen, please, we have a set of symptoms manifested by a second consciousness.
As proved by you. It takes possession of miss Fowler's body, claiming
to be spirit, despises her, threatens her, and has driven her to
the brink of destruction. Given these facts, one can label her disorder anything
one chooses, But a name doesn't explain a phenomenon that's existed in every corner
of the world for thousands of years. Gregory of Tours, who reported the
possession of a young girl who took on not only the voice but the appearance
of a Persian man who died decades before, the seventeenth century case of Elizabeth
Knapp, who read her exorcist thoughts, predicting future events through messages spontaneous spontaneous,
the erupting on her body, and today, the anthropologist Juno's account of
a possessed woman in Africa who vanished from her home one night and was found
the following morning on top of a tree. Afterwards, she glided down head
first, flicking her tongue in and out like a serpent. She then hung
suspended for a time and began to speak in a language later identified as Aramaic.
How do you account for these prints anecdotes, that's what you're putting forward?
Hogson, Where are the doctors, Where are the clinicians, scientists who
would document these stories? With that? Without that, we have what we
always have in spiritualist arguments, hearsay, fraud, misunderstood symptoms leading to misdiagnosis,
and mythology. To that, I say, angels, ghosts, hobgoblins.
Show me your face. Hogson stepped up to impleting. Don't you see
Morton? Can you not bring yourself to understand the great mystery we stand on
the threshold of solving? I beg you consider at least the possibility that here,
at last, in the city of Boston eighteen ninety eight, is tangible
evidence of transcendence. If there are demons, there must be angels and probably
a god and a life everlasting. You asked me, where are the doctors
and clinicians, Doctor Prince. We are the doctors, We are the clinicians,
very very good arguments. Yeah, and they are because it almost depends.
It almost depends a lot, like you know, alien abduction and all
of it. What lens do you want to look through to see it?
If you're looking through a scientific lens again, I mean you look at something
like light. I mean, we just call it light. We don't really
know what light is. You know, we say that it's waves of energy,
but I mean, we don't see, for example, infrared light.
You know, we don't see micro waves, we don't see radio waves or
you know, uh, you know. So at the end, what we
see is a very very limited view of the world through a particular lens.
And as he says, like what you want to call it, you know,
you call it what you want. Call it an angel an angel,
call it an interdimensional being, call it demon a demon, call it an
evil interdimensional being. These are just labels. But at the end, the
point is they exist. That's the point. That's something that's been fascinating me.
Where I've my research has branched off into these last few years because with
you know, I've I've studied the paranormal for many years. I've done my
investigations, and my point of view has changed so much because what we're dealing
with is our perception of reality, which is, like you mentioned, it's
like looking at the visible light spectrum, what our eyes can see, where
there's so much going on either direction in the electromagnetic spectrum. Yet we hold
and especially science holds that well, our reality is anything that we can bring
into the lab, look under a microscope, or be able to repeat results
or whatnot. When the true nature of our reality is way more out there
and crazy sounding than people realize. When you start talking about interdimensional beings,
you start talking about the idea of multiple dimensions, creatures that come in and
out of existence like what was documented on the Skinwalker ranch, you the reality
is far more stranger than we can imagine, exactly. And you know,
I'm just reading a book called The Case Against Reality, and this fellow quoting
of Francis Crick, the founder a co founder of DNA, he said,
the chances that we have any idea what reality really is is zero. Yep,
exactly, we have no idea. But my conclusion and looking at all
of this, is that we see a very tiny pinhole into what we call
reality. Even if what we see is real is questionable, the point being
I would suggest that nine of reality, as human beings know it, is
spiritual or what we would interpret as spiritual, yes, or what we would
interpret a spirit in other words, invisible to the eye, about higher,
higher or even lower frequencies. Everything is energy, everything is vibration. We
we are able to experience certain vibrations, but there are some that are outside
of our senses, like you have. I'm having trouble remembering here you have
ultra low frequencies that are low human hearing, but they can cause physical reactions
in a person ultrasound infrasound, and same thing with light. You know,
we can we can't see infrared light. Now we have cameras and scopes that
can see into the infrared spectrum for night vision, and now they have some
ultraviolet technology that can view a different light spectrum, but it's still very,
very narrow. One of the things also again as a as an investigator,
and you can tell me your thoughts on this because you mentioned you mentioned how
there are more cases of demonic possession. But one of the issues that I've
had in the last twenty years is the demonic is so popular in especially Western
culture, especially in America, where all the TV shows and all of the
you know, the movies, everything is demonic. That's what sells that extreme
fear. When in all the years that I've been investigating, I've never encountered
what I would consider be a demonic case. People would call me up freaking
out over something and then I find out they've watched too many episodes of those
Hunters one of these other shows, and there's nothing really there, or if
there's something there, it's nothing to be afraid of. Also, we did
this long standing case over here in Bloomingdale where multiple houses on the same street
were experiencing activity, and we took years. We went back over a few
years investigating whatever was there was attached to the land. It wasn't human,
and it had qualities that were negative at times, others that were just it
was just there, maybe mischievous, something that people would call on elemental.
I've also did. I did investigations one time down and deep in a cave
in Colorado where nobody's ever, no record of anybody ever dying. The furthest
area. Back in the cave, we were allowed to go. We did
an investigation, and I had so many things happening, and then it hit
me, why is this cave showing paranormal activity. I even got voices on
EVP saying get out. And it took a while to realize that probably we
weren't dealing with human spirits at all. We're dealing with something else, some
type of elemental, some things that live underground. My old miners used to
talk about Tommy Knockers and things in the mind, things that live underground,
and things in the natural world that appear paranormal to us but are still a
part of our reality. Yeah. Well, I mean, you can call
it primortal, but I mean, in my view, the battle, the
battle between good and evil goes on moment to moment, with humans sort of
in the middle and the prize being you want to call it, the souls,
the spirits, the life of human beings in the balance. And I
believe that inside us were tugged to this direction or that. But in some
cases, in some cases you have a mother Teresa tugged in one direction and
in another you have Jack the Ripper tugged in another. But at these extremes
you look at something that you might call a saint, and in the other
extreme you look at something that might be called demonic. Interesting, there are
trying to figure out how to make this point. There are a lot of
cases of people who report near death experiences. Yes, and I've been I've
been watching a lot of videos of people recounting their near death experiences lately.
And if you and again, that's a whole nother show in itself, but
went in a way. In a way, it's very much related Mark because
it talks about a spiritual world, spirit world, a world that's different the
other world is all this Huxley called it. See my view of it,
and it's my personal view. Is the fact that these demonic possessions, these
demons, put the body through hell, put the person through hell, torment
them and to the point of where the goal is for them to die.
And yet I also believe our souls, our spirits are immortal, yes,
and we come back many times. So I've always likened some of these darker
entities, the demons or whatever we want to call them, yes, more
as like an intelligent parasite, because they attach themselves to a person yeah yeah,
and feed off their energy, and they do everything to createative negative emotions,
negative feelings, scare the hell out of people because that's what they feed
off of. And the more they can scare the person or torture them or
even like say a household of people, they feed off of that negative energy
and get stronger and stronger. When the person dies, Ah, they just
move on to the next victim. Yes, Yes, As a matter of
fact, There's an interesting dialogue in the book where Leonora Piper asks the demonic
presence why do you do this? And basically the answer is this, why
do I bother with a pathetic blank like Clara Valor, I do it because
it's my job. God is dead, Jesus in hell. Yet moment to
moment we fight for the souls of humans, sometimes by the thousands, often
one at a time, each a small or momentous victory, and we celebrate
those victories. He swore, truly we do. And then she utters God
attired general, incompetent, blithering angels have lost confidence. And I'm knowing the
power the forces I command. I think the English would say, he let
his side down. It crept toward her another secret it. Most are borderlined,
but occasionally we come upon a special case. Boreden Holmes, the Ripper,
countless others whose names you'll never know, and these, by their own
choosing, become me evil incarnate, prowling the earth with one purpose to reduce
God's so called creations to the British animals I know them to be. That
is utterly fascinating, Thank you, That is utterly fascinating to hear that kind
of perspective supposedly, now that was was that taken from actual transcripts? What
happened with that is a lot of the language is older English, you know,
like Wence and Wildst and things like that. So it's the it's it's
the language that I've change, not the message. Okay, yeah, okay,
got it. You know, in how many in all the time that
she was being treated, how long was she suffering from this until she was
had the exorcism? Well, actually, yeah, so I'll tell you a
little bit more about the exorcism moment. But to answer your question, the
entire process took from eighteen ninety eight to nineteen oh four, so basically six
years. Wow. Yeah, so it was a horror story from her point
of view, to say the least. In terms of the exorcism. Hodgson,
you know, wanted to have an exorcism. So did Piper. Of
course, you know, that's their point of view. The lens. They
look at this through Waterman and Prince with a materialists did an exorcism. But
it was Prince that did the exorcism, and he used the language and Bible
and whatnot for foreign exorcism, but he did it himself. And the idea
was that if she believed she was possessed by a demon, an exorcism would
work based on shock value. Of course, Hogson looked at it from a
very different point of view, and that the exorcist and exorcism would would send
the send the demonic presence back to hell. Hmm. Very interesting point.
The the Clara Feller, I mean, displayed all kinds of of clairvoyance and
uh and uh incredible strength and violence, you know, you know, incredible
violence. But at the end the demon sort of surrendered and basically said,
you know, I have better things to do with my time than this.
Okay, I guess the demon got bored well, as it was the second
demon. It started with a lesser demon, a bad Dawn was the name,
and then which means changer of shapes in Greek. And then it moved
on to a much higher presence. I call it Satan, although it was
never identified as Satan per se. But this was a different, different presence
and one that was let's say, not so brutish and a lot more clever
hm hmmm. And this is, by the way, had designs on World
War One. Okay. Talking about his vision of the world, you know,
his vision of the world was you know, was absolute slaughter, you
know, massacre when you when you mentioned that the demon was more cunning for
me the in the original movie The Xist. For me, the scenes that
I was most fascinating, fascinated with was the conversations with the demon exactly,
even though you know he was obviously screwing with Carris's head. Yes, but
yet at the same time is just revealing the personality. I don't know,
I just always liked that better than pea soup and stuff like that. Yeah,
yeah, absolutely, And I'll tell you, really, one of the
charms about The Unwelcomed I think, is just that that really you have full
blown dialogues and you really sort of catch an insight into what evil is about,
and that evil is something that exists, and it doesn't have much to
do with peace soup, although there are cases like that. What it has
to do with is just business, violence and and a bedlong I guess something
like that. Wow, Well, I'm actually looking forward. I had started
reading some of the book and I'm looking forward to reading the rest because now
you got me really hooked, and I'm definitely looking forward to that. Now
the unwelcomed. Where can people find your book? Well, I'll tell you
what the unwelcome the uh, the Curious Case of Claire Feller Ron Felber.
It's on Amazon right now. It can be ordered on Amazon. It can
be ordered on Barnes and Noble and any any of the online bookstores, and
it will be distributed next month into regular bookstores, concrete and mortar buildings.
Oh online right now? Excellent, excellent, Okay. I think I'm gonna
pick me up a hardcover copy of it anyway, Ron, thank you so
much for coming back on This has been very enlightening and I'm chilling Gary book.
Yeah, very book. My wife read it and said she didn't sleep
for three nights. I guess that's some kind of a testimony. Well,
hopefully people get out there and get your book, and I hope it's a
great success for you and we'll have to have you on again in the near
future. I chill like that a lot, Mark. Thank you. Okay,
Well, thank you, Ron, and thank you everybody for tuning in
to another edition of the Paranormal UK Radio Show, the flagship show on the
Paranormal UK Radio Network. And normally i'd ask Irene where could people find us,
and she would tell you everywhere, all the platforms you can find our
network and our show. We will be back in a couple of weeks with
another new show, so we look forward talking to you all then hopefully Irene
will be back with me at that time, and take care of yourself,
be good humans, and we'll talk to you soon