WEBVTT 1 00:00:06.519 --> 00:00:12.279 Hello everybody, and welcome to another episode of JavaScript Jump. On our panel 2 00:00:12.320 --> 00:00:16.239 today, we've got a j O'Neill. Hey, a j yo yo yo 3 00:00:16.359 --> 00:00:25.000 coming at you live from tactile keyboard switches. That's that's a fact that I 4 00:00:25.079 --> 00:00:28.920 never actually got. But you know, I know that people really get excited 5 00:00:28.960 --> 00:00:33.840 about it, so good for you. It's just a test board, okay. 6 00:00:35.280 --> 00:00:40.159 And and another panelist on today is Steve Edwards. How are you? 7 00:00:40.240 --> 00:00:44.640 Steve? Been busier than in one legged mannered a butt kicking contest this morning. 8 00:00:44.759 --> 00:00:51.520 But hello from cold and rainy Portland. Hello Steve. By the way, 9 00:00:51.560 --> 00:00:55.200 just so you know that I'm sitting here with the window open because the 10 00:00:55.240 --> 00:01:00.039 weather is really nice here and I am I appreciate that. Yeah, the 11 00:01:00.240 --> 00:01:03.840 other issues as unfortunately, there are other issues. So for those of you 12 00:01:03.879 --> 00:01:07.879 don't remember, I'm coming from Tel Aviv, which is in Israel, which 13 00:01:07.920 --> 00:01:14.000 is at war, which is in fun to say the least. Uh. 14 00:01:14.040 --> 00:01:19.359 And our guest today is Andreas Mulla. Did I pronounce it correctly? Yes? 15 00:01:19.680 --> 00:01:25.359 Pretty much. Yeah, I'm coming at you from Copenhagen. Then not 16 00:01:26.920 --> 00:01:30.680 wonderful, wonderful Copenhagen. Let's see who gets the reference. Everybody, is 17 00:01:30.680 --> 00:01:37.760 probably way too young anyway. So Andreas, tell us a little bit about 18 00:01:37.799 --> 00:01:41.599 yourself, who you are, what you do. We like to ask people 19 00:01:41.680 --> 00:01:46.640 why they while they're famous, you know, or they think they're famous. 20 00:01:47.319 --> 00:01:51.120 I am pretty convinced I'm not famous. I'm pretty sure. Yeah I'm not. 21 00:01:51.680 --> 00:01:53.640 But once you get once you're on here, then your famed increases and 22 00:01:53.680 --> 00:01:57.959 you start getting autographed multiple people in the past. Yeah, no, I 23 00:01:59.280 --> 00:02:05.480 expect that, family man. I am. Well, I'm famous because I 24 00:02:05.519 --> 00:02:09.159 was on the JavaScript Jabba podcast, which is where people will know me from. 25 00:02:09.280 --> 00:02:14.080 I think, uh, yeah, I'm I'm a software engineer that's been 26 00:02:14.280 --> 00:02:19.360 building web applications for what is probably a little bit over two decades now, 27 00:02:19.800 --> 00:02:23.039 uh, and work with a ton of different frameworks, a ton of different 28 00:02:23.240 --> 00:02:29.159 stacks and technologies, always with a lot of focus on web because I always 29 00:02:29.159 --> 00:02:32.560 found the it kind of to be the most fun platform. The fact that 30 00:02:32.599 --> 00:02:42.000 you can deploy apps right away has just always been fantastic. Now there's all 31 00:02:42.080 --> 00:02:47.840 sorts of building and packaging and bundling and transpiling and whatnot getting in the way. 32 00:02:49.840 --> 00:02:53.879 If only there was a way to get out of that. Yeah, 33 00:02:53.879 --> 00:03:00.000 I think that might be what we're going to be talking about today. Yeah, 34 00:03:00.039 --> 00:03:04.000 yeah, so yeah. I've been always working with the web, and 35 00:03:04.719 --> 00:03:08.080 in the most recent couple of years, I've been sort of obsessed with this 36 00:03:08.360 --> 00:03:13.719 year if there's a at least it might brook a better way of building web 37 00:03:13.719 --> 00:03:19.919 applications, like something that lets you ship faster, lets you work faster, 38 00:03:20.360 --> 00:03:24.919 and sort of more seamlessly. We've seen a ton of sort of progress in 39 00:03:24.960 --> 00:03:30.159 this space, I think over the last especially five years actually, but also 40 00:03:30.159 --> 00:03:35.080 the last ten years, like a lot have happened, right, and most 41 00:03:35.120 --> 00:03:38.639 recently a lot of the new build tools and hosting platforms has just made this 42 00:03:38.719 --> 00:03:43.360 process so much easier. But there's every time you make a progress, there's 43 00:03:43.400 --> 00:03:46.199 like you can see the next step, you can see the next place you 44 00:03:46.240 --> 00:03:50.360 want to go to. Right. So for me, this sort of meant 45 00:03:50.759 --> 00:03:54.479 is the way to build applications faster. And I spend most of my time 46 00:03:54.520 --> 00:03:59.520 building the front and part of applications, so specifically it is that way to 47 00:03:59.520 --> 00:04:04.120 build you faster for web applications, and that sort of led me to start 48 00:04:04.240 --> 00:04:10.759 Title, which is a platform for building web applications without actually writing code. 49 00:04:10.840 --> 00:04:15.439 So you build all the UI in the title editor just like you would do 50 00:04:15.560 --> 00:04:18.759 in a tool like webflow or any sort of similar tools. So that but 51 00:04:18.839 --> 00:04:24.319 what set Toddle a little bit apart is the fact that you can take you 52 00:04:24.319 --> 00:04:27.480 can build the UI title, but you can also actually build the logic and 53 00:04:27.519 --> 00:04:30.360 all the data fetching and everything else in total, so you never have to 54 00:04:30.480 --> 00:04:34.120 leave that tool. You can build the entire application there. And that is 55 00:04:34.199 --> 00:04:38.240 actually you can do all these things, but actually having to write any code 56 00:04:38.240 --> 00:04:45.319 to make that happen. Yeah, so no code and low code have been 57 00:04:45.560 --> 00:04:50.879 quite the rage in recent years. It seems to me it's kind of like 58 00:04:51.120 --> 00:04:57.560 it's if our market is kind of splitting. You know. Some people are 59 00:04:57.720 --> 00:05:02.560 betting on, you know, meta frameworks and frameworks and meta frameworks which are 60 00:05:02.600 --> 00:05:09.279 really heavy into the coding part. You know, you write your UI as 61 00:05:09.480 --> 00:05:14.920 lines of code. Others are, like you said, are betting on a 62 00:05:14.959 --> 00:05:21.160 no code or low code approach of dragging and dropping their way to a web 63 00:05:21.199 --> 00:05:26.399 application. A website or web application. By the way, I mentioned, 64 00:05:26.720 --> 00:05:30.040 people who have listened to this podcast probably know that I used to work at 65 00:05:30.040 --> 00:05:33.439 wigs up until two years ago, which is very much in the space as 66 00:05:33.439 --> 00:05:41.000 well. Its main focus though, is on the visual building of the websites 67 00:05:41.120 --> 00:05:46.040 only recently as it also started, you know, starting to target a similar 68 00:05:46.079 --> 00:05:50.560 place that you seem to be at, which is building actual business logic on 69 00:05:50.680 --> 00:05:57.920 top of the of the user interface that gets constructed. So I looked at 70 00:05:57.959 --> 00:06:01.319 the total website, and I looked at some of your demos and videos and 71 00:06:01.720 --> 00:06:10.040 whatnot, And what got me really interesting is less the visual editing part. 72 00:06:10.240 --> 00:06:14.040 I mean, it's really cool the way the fact that you can build a 73 00:06:14.199 --> 00:06:18.720 user interface with drag and drop like a bit like you do with with like 74 00:06:19.040 --> 00:06:24.759 you said, with Webflow, or maybe with Figma, and then somehow translated 75 00:06:25.079 --> 00:06:30.399 into an actual web web application or website or web page. But what got 76 00:06:30.439 --> 00:06:41.480 me more interested is the way that you implement business logic in a no code 77 00:06:41.560 --> 00:06:48.079 type approach. Your ability to actually specify interactivity and computational parts. And one 78 00:06:48.079 --> 00:06:55.839 of the videos that I saw was you actually using your tool to do like 79 00:06:57.399 --> 00:07:03.079 coding challenges. So it's really using a no code tool to implement to solve 80 00:07:03.519 --> 00:07:11.480 coding challenges. So how does that work? Yeah, exactly, coding with 81 00:07:11.519 --> 00:07:17.079 a visual editor. Yeah, that was exactly. I only did the first 82 00:07:17.079 --> 00:07:21.360 of December and I released it on the fourth of December to make sure that 83 00:07:21.439 --> 00:07:29.279 I was not like giving away anything but essentially just showing that the flake flexibility 84 00:07:29.319 --> 00:07:32.519 of Totles, especially Logic Engine, means that you can you can solve edwin 85 00:07:32.560 --> 00:07:36.000 of code challenges in total, and again you can do it without writing code. 86 00:07:38.879 --> 00:07:46.279 That's the headliner right there. Yeah, but it's not exactly not writing 87 00:07:46.360 --> 00:07:50.360 code. It's you're kind of drawing code as it were. I mean, 88 00:07:50.560 --> 00:07:56.439 it's it's empty complete. I think for those you know, more technically minded 89 00:07:56.480 --> 00:08:03.439 of our listeners, correct, yes, so can you explain that? Well? 90 00:08:05.759 --> 00:08:09.480 So, I think I think that's this. This is not entirely new. 91 00:08:09.959 --> 00:08:15.439 I realized before we did that that someone had done it in Sketch, 92 00:08:16.279 --> 00:08:20.480 the visual programming language for children, So we're not exactly the first first tool 93 00:08:20.560 --> 00:08:24.879 to do that. I think it still surprises a lot of people that it's 94 00:08:24.879 --> 00:08:30.639 possible, often because it's not really what we associate. We don't associate visual 95 00:08:30.680 --> 00:08:35.679 programming with anything complex. It's generally used, and I think this actually kind 96 00:08:35.679 --> 00:08:39.480 of applies to a lot of no code. Most people see it as tools 97 00:08:39.480 --> 00:08:43.399 for people who can't code, and so if you know how to code, 98 00:08:43.440 --> 00:08:46.720 why would you ever touch one of those? Right? It seems unnecessary. 99 00:08:48.159 --> 00:08:50.960 But I think what we're seeing in the more recent years is that there's actually 100 00:08:50.000 --> 00:08:54.320 really a point to that, and there's a power and flexibility in this that 101 00:08:54.519 --> 00:08:58.600 rivals code. You can do all the same thing. And I think you 102 00:08:58.720 --> 00:09:01.960 said sort of, well, it is kind of code, and I think 103 00:09:01.039 --> 00:09:05.000 you're right. We we I like making this distinction that it's programming but it's 104 00:09:05.039 --> 00:09:20.639 not code. So there's My wife is an accountant and she can't write a 105 00:09:20.720 --> 00:09:24.519 visual basic script to save her life. It doesn't make sense to her. 106 00:09:24.039 --> 00:09:28.200 She will, you know, copy and paste something off of the internet, 107 00:09:28.320 --> 00:09:35.080 but like the very idea of indentation being a way to logically group something like 108 00:09:35.120 --> 00:09:39.080 she's done PowerPoint presentations, just bullet points, but for some reason like that, 109 00:09:39.120 --> 00:09:43.000 it just doesn't Maybe it's a mental block. I don't know. I 110 00:09:43.279 --> 00:09:46.480 would I would say that she is smart enough and capable enough to be able 111 00:09:46.519 --> 00:09:54.039 to decide a logical flow, but she no texts. She couldn't do it. 112 00:09:54.080 --> 00:09:58.120 So I'm wondering if, if maybe this could open up an avenue for 113 00:09:58.159 --> 00:10:01.519 people like that where they I don't I don't understand it, but like just 114 00:10:03.559 --> 00:10:13.279 can't grasp the textual representation maybe could grasp like a nested flow representation. Yes, 115 00:10:13.720 --> 00:10:16.799 I mean we're seeing that all the time, so I think I think 116 00:10:16.799 --> 00:10:20.679 there's a very big benefit, which is that it just looks a lot less 117 00:10:20.720 --> 00:10:24.480 scary. And And the thing is like, when you've been coding for a 118 00:10:24.519 --> 00:10:28.960 long time, you kind of forget what it was like, Like you forget 119 00:10:28.039 --> 00:10:35.519 the early days. My wife will never forget PHP. No, but you 120 00:10:35.639 --> 00:10:39.120 might forget some of the journey of learning it, right. I mean, 121 00:10:39.240 --> 00:10:41.840 my wife just changed to be a programmer. She just got a job last 122 00:10:41.919 --> 00:10:46.639 year as a front end developer, which is super I running now that I'm 123 00:10:46.679 --> 00:10:50.480 trying to move the industry away from it, but it's sort of as an 124 00:10:50.519 --> 00:10:52.440 opportunity for me to go back and see, like, oh, yeah, 125 00:10:52.559 --> 00:10:56.960 it was really hard to figure out how variable bindings work and why this value 126 00:10:56.960 --> 00:11:01.480 is there now and not before. It's just you forgot because you've been thinking 127 00:11:01.519 --> 00:11:07.000 about it for years. You've just been thinking in a certain way. It's 128 00:11:07.200 --> 00:11:13.879 really interesting, you know. I kind of like to compare coding to the 129 00:11:13.960 --> 00:11:18.759 way that lawyers write contracts. You know, we need to describe something in 130 00:11:18.799 --> 00:11:24.799 a super precise way, but it still needs to be kind of readable. 131 00:11:24.840 --> 00:11:35.120 And writeable by humans. So lawyers in contracts invented like they took the English 132 00:11:35.200 --> 00:11:39.480 language and they kind of twisted it. So it's still English, but it's 133 00:11:39.519 --> 00:11:43.120 not the English that you would write as a normal person. It's contract English, 134 00:11:43.480 --> 00:11:46.679 you know, party of the first part, part of the second part, 135 00:11:46.759 --> 00:11:52.879 and so forth. We as programmers took it a step further. We 136 00:11:52.960 --> 00:12:01.679 went further away from human languages to something that's you know, more alien to 137 00:12:01.759 --> 00:12:05.559 most people, which is why I think a lot of people really struggle with 138 00:12:05.639 --> 00:12:09.240 it. Like, you know, the way that it executes the whole line 139 00:12:09.360 --> 00:12:15.480 after a line that seems to make perfect sense to us is really challenging to 140 00:12:15.519 --> 00:12:18.759 a lot of people that are not from from this space. Now, you 141 00:12:18.799 --> 00:12:24.399 know, we try to explain it by saying it's it's like a cookbook recipe 142 00:12:24.120 --> 00:12:28.879 or stuff like that, or the instructions that you might get from Ikia, 143 00:12:28.080 --> 00:12:37.320 but that just scares people even more. But but but yeah, but so 144 00:12:37.919 --> 00:12:43.679 talking about total for instead of code, which you know, most of our 145 00:12:43.679 --> 00:12:46.399 listeners I assume know how code looks like. Now, obviously this is a 146 00:12:46.440 --> 00:12:50.159 podcast, this is not a visual medium, so it's kind of challenging. 147 00:12:50.559 --> 00:12:58.799 But can you try to describe how Total Programming looks and feels like, yeah, 148 00:13:00.000 --> 00:13:05.120 asolutely. So one of the things that are a little bit different with 149 00:13:05.279 --> 00:13:11.720 Total than other sort of previous visual programming languages is that in Total we kind 150 00:13:11.720 --> 00:13:16.360 of split programming into three separate parts. So that's the first part, as 151 00:13:16.360 --> 00:13:20.799 you mentioned, the visual building, which is just building UI and essentially saying 152 00:13:20.799 --> 00:13:24.080 I want a div and a button inside the div, and it needs some 153 00:13:24.120 --> 00:13:26.840 attributes and I need to apply some styling, and it is all If people 154 00:13:26.879 --> 00:13:31.200 are familiar webflows, it's pretty much exactly the same thing you're doing in web 155 00:13:31.240 --> 00:13:33.679 flow, right, So that's kind of one editor one part of it. 156 00:13:35.000 --> 00:13:41.759 Then we have workflows, which are essentially large flow charts, and they come 157 00:13:41.799 --> 00:13:46.320 in every time you have a set of actions you want to perform. So 158 00:13:46.360 --> 00:13:50.240 let's say when a user clicks a button, you can attach a workflow and 159 00:13:50.279 --> 00:13:54.840 say I want you to do this. If this, then do that, 160 00:13:54.000 --> 00:13:58.799 otherwise do that, then do this bit right, very sort of flow chart 161 00:14:00.960 --> 00:14:05.240 style execution, and it's visually built to look like a flow shot, right, 162 00:14:05.279 --> 00:14:07.759 it's got our own spin on it. But I mean, if you 163 00:14:07.840 --> 00:14:11.639 read a flow shot, you can't immediately understand what's going on there, right, 164 00:14:11.799 --> 00:14:18.159 And if you're familiar with functional programming paradigms, this is sort of everything 165 00:14:18.200 --> 00:14:22.519 that has a side effect is an action in total, So flow shots are 166 00:14:22.559 --> 00:14:26.039 like actions or like do this side effect, then do that side effect, 167 00:14:26.080 --> 00:14:31.320 then do that side effect. So it can be update a variable, it 168 00:14:31.360 --> 00:14:35.159 can be call and API, it can be set page title, anything that 169 00:14:35.679 --> 00:14:39.480 where you're sort of making a change in your system. That's an action. 170 00:14:39.919 --> 00:14:43.679 And the third part is then the formula editor. And again this is very 171 00:14:43.759 --> 00:14:50.120 much boring from functional programming. Formulas are entirely pure. I say entirely. 172 00:14:50.200 --> 00:14:52.759 We do have a few like date and time and now, so we're not 173 00:14:54.000 --> 00:14:56.639 entirely strict to that process, but there at least no side effects. So 174 00:14:56.679 --> 00:15:03.519 there's only ever like computer value. And this looks if anybody's ever done Blender 175 00:15:05.480 --> 00:15:09.240 or like three D any sort of three D two, you know that there's 176 00:15:09.360 --> 00:15:13.279 like a material section to do that. This might not be all of your 177 00:15:13.639 --> 00:15:18.120 listeners, but if you ever seen any like three D two, you realize 178 00:15:18.159 --> 00:15:22.120 that actually visual programming is huge in the three D space. When people are 179 00:15:22.120 --> 00:15:28.840 building materials and assigning material like different kind of notes, they're always doing these 180 00:15:28.960 --> 00:15:35.799 massive like computation graphs, and in this space like visual programming is entirely dominant, 181 00:15:35.840 --> 00:15:39.000 right, nobody's writing code for this. I never really understood why. 182 00:15:39.200 --> 00:15:46.399 I think the basic reason is just that people didn't, like most materialists didn't 183 00:15:46.440 --> 00:15:48.759 know how to code. So it's easy to build a visual interface, right, 184 00:15:48.200 --> 00:15:52.639 but some of these can be incredibly complex in the three D world, 185 00:15:52.279 --> 00:15:56.080 and toddles visually look the same. It's a bunch of notes with graphs in 186 00:15:56.120 --> 00:16:03.600 between, and it's essentially function. It's essentially like just like you would have 187 00:16:03.639 --> 00:16:07.960 a JavaScript function. It produced one output, takes any number of inputs. 188 00:16:07.360 --> 00:16:11.960 This is the same thing. Just the range. There's a big graph where 189 00:16:11.000 --> 00:16:15.000 on the right side you'll get your output, and then every node can have 190 00:16:15.080 --> 00:16:18.799 more one or more inputs, and you have this big tree graph structure. 191 00:16:18.279 --> 00:16:26.799 That's your computation graph right now. So I have a couple of questions about 192 00:16:26.840 --> 00:16:32.639 that. I'm thinking about where to start. Okay, So one thing that 193 00:16:32.679 --> 00:16:37.799 I remember from looking at your demos and also your videos is that there's a 194 00:16:37.879 --> 00:16:45.279 strong reactive aspect to the way that you work. So you talked about actions 195 00:16:45.320 --> 00:16:51.200 being side effects, but what I saw is that very often that side effect 196 00:16:51.320 --> 00:16:57.240 is actually update variable. Where a variable is basically just the name value that 197 00:16:57.360 --> 00:17:07.279 can change. And whenever a variable changes, that variable is bound to things. 198 00:17:07.920 --> 00:17:12.480 So it might be bound to some aspect of the user interface, for 199 00:17:12.519 --> 00:17:21.000 example, or it might be bound to other computations maybe, and whenever you 200 00:17:21.119 --> 00:17:27.160 update the variable, then everything that is bound to that variable automatically changes accordingly. 201 00:17:29.559 --> 00:17:33.559 Yeah, that's correct, and so the basic model here we use for 202 00:17:33.640 --> 00:17:38.720 how total works is exactly the same you'd seen React of view Angular today. 203 00:17:38.799 --> 00:17:44.720 Right. The underlying premise is a different between each framework, but the general 204 00:17:44.759 --> 00:17:48.200 idea is the same. Right. You have some state you have either from 205 00:17:48.279 --> 00:17:53.079 variables or maybe from an API, and then every time that changes, you 206 00:17:53.160 --> 00:17:59.000 update the UI automatically. Right, And each platform has a slightly different mechanism 207 00:18:00.039 --> 00:18:03.880 in which that happens, but the overall concept is the same. And again 208 00:18:03.880 --> 00:18:06.880 that's the same model we adopted to Toddle. Right, So we tried not 209 00:18:06.960 --> 00:18:11.279 to reinvent everything about web development. We're kind of just saying, what is 210 00:18:11.359 --> 00:18:18.160 that dominant component architecture that has won, so that pretty much every modern framework 211 00:18:18.279 --> 00:18:22.279 uses exactly the same idea today, right, and how can we apply that 212 00:18:22.880 --> 00:18:30.039 into a visual development context. So a few questions about that. So first 213 00:18:30.079 --> 00:18:33.920 of all, just to understand the scope of what you're doing. Everything is 214 00:18:33.000 --> 00:18:37.200 running client site. Correct. You don't actually code the back end, or 215 00:18:37.240 --> 00:18:42.319 do you? No. Tottle is front end only, so it's set up 216 00:18:42.319 --> 00:18:45.880 to work with whatever back end you provide. And there's actually quite a few 217 00:18:47.440 --> 00:18:51.440 like no code back ends you can use as well, but a lot of 218 00:18:51.440 --> 00:18:53.480 them a little bit newer. So I think for larger projects, most of 219 00:18:53.519 --> 00:19:00.799 our customers are still coding the back end and you basically just access to back 220 00:19:00.920 --> 00:19:04.599 end via ajax calls. So an action might be an ajax call that either 221 00:19:06.400 --> 00:19:12.240 sends some data or retrieves some data and then uses it to update whatever part 222 00:19:12.279 --> 00:19:18.400 of the user interface. Yeah, so in terms of backhands, from what 223 00:19:18.440 --> 00:19:21.680 I was seeing on your list there, it looks like it's stuff that's like 224 00:19:21.839 --> 00:19:26.079 headless CMSs that are hosted elsewhere. Can you build in your own you know, 225 00:19:26.119 --> 00:19:29.200 say you want or do you have your own customizble database for a back 226 00:19:29.279 --> 00:19:32.799 end? Is that something you can do as well? Yeah? So title 227 00:19:33.039 --> 00:19:37.000 title just communicates over rest, so it really works with any back end you 228 00:19:37.039 --> 00:19:41.359 want, like you can you can coach your own you can use one of 229 00:19:41.400 --> 00:19:44.920 the no code ones that I established, but like, as long as it 230 00:19:45.039 --> 00:19:47.440 speak, you can talk to it over an a scp API, you can 231 00:19:47.519 --> 00:19:51.160 use it with tunnel. So how does it work with local development? Is 232 00:19:51.200 --> 00:19:55.160 this? I mean you have everything is done on the tuttle dot dev site 233 00:19:55.200 --> 00:19:57.000 that's where editing happens. Or is there something you can do locally, like 234 00:19:57.000 --> 00:20:02.519 if you're working with local copy of a database. I mean, so you 235 00:20:02.559 --> 00:20:07.359 could set up total so that it would change based on parameters to redirect to 236 00:20:07.400 --> 00:20:11.319 different back ends. So you could say, for example, I would like 237 00:20:11.359 --> 00:20:15.559 to use a different base u L for these requests based on whether you're setting 238 00:20:15.240 --> 00:20:19.559 some local storage data, whatever you're doing. But there's no local version of 239 00:20:19.599 --> 00:20:23.240 total that all runs in the cloud on total of them, so you could 240 00:20:23.240 --> 00:20:27.680 in theory you could set up something like an in rock RL that's open to 241 00:20:27.720 --> 00:20:33.599 the outside and communicate with your your rest API that way. Yeah, as 242 00:20:33.640 --> 00:20:38.000 long as again, as long as it's reachable from totles back in. Yeah, 243 00:20:38.279 --> 00:20:42.519 though to be fair, I would imagine such a solution. The more 244 00:20:42.559 --> 00:20:48.160 popular approach would be to use some sort of a headless CMS rather than trying 245 00:20:48.200 --> 00:20:52.000 to run a local database or something like that. So even during development you're 246 00:20:52.279 --> 00:20:59.160 working with the cloud based service or something like that. Okay, so going 247 00:20:59.359 --> 00:21:03.440 these are my this is my geek things coming to mind as a developer. 248 00:21:03.279 --> 00:21:08.960 Since I live inside the bugging I'm just thinking about recent hours I've spent debugging 249 00:21:10.000 --> 00:21:12.880 something because I was able to run everything locally. How does that work? 250 00:21:12.920 --> 00:21:17.119 Are you stuck with strictly like log files. There's the way to use break 251 00:21:17.160 --> 00:21:22.880 points and you know, just access through your webdev tools when you're not local, 252 00:21:22.960 --> 00:21:23.799 or how does the bugging going to work in a case like this. 253 00:21:25.680 --> 00:21:29.000 Before i'dressed answers, I just have to say that you beat me to the 254 00:21:29.000 --> 00:21:33.400 punch, because that was exactly going to be my next question. How does 255 00:21:33.440 --> 00:21:40.640 debugging work in a visual coding type environment? So, yeah, it's a 256 00:21:40.640 --> 00:21:45.119 great question, and we don't have a particularly complex debugging set up yet. 257 00:21:45.680 --> 00:21:51.359 It's something we've gotten the pipeline, but we haven't really needed it very much 258 00:21:51.440 --> 00:21:56.319 yet. And that's because quite a lot of times the browsers debugging tools work 259 00:21:56.440 --> 00:22:04.559 for like very complex issues, but also totle itself. The way the formula 260 00:22:04.720 --> 00:22:10.960 editors we call it works is that you're always working with live data. So 261 00:22:11.400 --> 00:22:17.319 as you're building your formulas, you're always seeing the next value that you're producing. 262 00:22:17.400 --> 00:22:22.599 And it's very similar in a way to coding and a rebel where you're 263 00:22:22.640 --> 00:22:26.480 sort of writing each line at a time. Similar here you see all the 264 00:22:26.559 --> 00:22:30.440 data all the time. So when code, we sort of have a tendency 265 00:22:30.480 --> 00:22:34.200 to, you know, code for about ten minutes or maybe twenty if we're 266 00:22:34.200 --> 00:22:37.279 getting comfortable with typescript or something like that, we'll go in code and then 267 00:22:37.319 --> 00:22:41.240 we'll see how it works, and then eventually we'll go and figure out why 268 00:22:41.240 --> 00:22:45.319 it didn't work right. But in total, you're really running every part of 269 00:22:45.359 --> 00:22:48.359 your code all the time, so you have a tendency to catch things really 270 00:22:48.400 --> 00:22:56.039 early. So we haven't really had a lot of need for it yet and 271 00:22:56.079 --> 00:23:00.039 therefore we haven't really prioritized it too much as we sort of go on. 272 00:23:00.160 --> 00:23:04.599 Obviously, there are cases where we now end up debugging issues by adding log 273 00:23:04.680 --> 00:23:10.359 statements, et cetera. Way you could definitely improve on that, but we're 274 00:23:10.480 --> 00:23:12.759 just we're not seeing it that much on the front end, to be honest. 275 00:23:14.240 --> 00:23:17.880 Yeah, to be honest, you could probably add some sort of a 276 00:23:17.960 --> 00:23:22.119 simple log if you don't have it already, could probably add a simple logging 277 00:23:22.160 --> 00:23:26.400 mechanism into total so that certain actions. You know, like you said, 278 00:23:26.400 --> 00:23:30.079 in action is a side effect, and the side effect might be log So 279 00:23:30.200 --> 00:23:34.519 you could easily add an action that either logs locally into the deav tools console 280 00:23:36.279 --> 00:23:41.799 or sends it to some sort of a telemetry service to be collected, you 281 00:23:41.839 --> 00:23:47.240 know, for sessions in general, stuff like that, you probably want to 282 00:23:47.279 --> 00:23:51.079 have some sort of telemetry service at one point or another. In any event, 283 00:23:52.599 --> 00:23:56.440 we have a log to console action that we use quite rigorously right now, 284 00:23:57.000 --> 00:24:02.599 and it's quite easy because again it's mostly pure functions are almost always pure 285 00:24:02.640 --> 00:24:06.200 functions you're working with, or formulas, right, you can really just copy 286 00:24:06.279 --> 00:24:10.759 part of a formula over and log it out and you can be quite confident 287 00:24:10.759 --> 00:24:15.039 that it's going to generate the same result. So logging logging is sort of 288 00:24:15.079 --> 00:24:19.880 our main approach to debugging when needed. But again, because it's easy to 289 00:24:19.880 --> 00:24:25.920 build UI, sometimes you're just like building You'll just add like a paragraph into 290 00:24:26.000 --> 00:24:29.279 the page and write it there because then you can kind of track it in 291 00:24:29.319 --> 00:24:33.039 real time. Right, So if I'm doing like more complex mouse interactions, 292 00:24:33.079 --> 00:24:38.240 like some sort of swipe demo or something, right, I'm often just logging 293 00:24:38.319 --> 00:24:42.880 values live to the to the UI. I'll throw in a span and put 294 00:24:42.920 --> 00:24:45.839 whatever my mouth off set is in there, and then I can sort of 295 00:24:45.839 --> 00:24:49.200 figure out, Okay, why is this not working? And as I'm dragging 296 00:24:49.240 --> 00:24:52.880 the mouse around, I can see, Okay, it's it's not setting it 297 00:24:52.920 --> 00:24:56.079 here, or I forgot to subtract some window with or whatever. It is 298 00:24:56.119 --> 00:25:03.079 the problems you always run into and trying to do math. So pull it 299 00:25:03.160 --> 00:25:07.640 back a bit. Can you talk to us about, like through the process 300 00:25:07.839 --> 00:25:14.119 of how you actually start using Total Like what let's say I'm saying, Okay, 301 00:25:14.200 --> 00:25:18.200 this sounds really cool, I want to try it out. What what 302 00:25:18.319 --> 00:25:22.880 do I do? So you can simply go to our website and sign up 303 00:25:22.960 --> 00:25:29.480 right now. So there's a free tier that's sort of yeah, you go 304 00:25:29.559 --> 00:25:33.039 to Total dot Devin. You can sign up right there and then get started 305 00:25:33.079 --> 00:25:37.720 building a new project. We have a little tutorial project that's kind of a 306 00:25:37.759 --> 00:25:41.160 project build in Total that also at the same time explains to you, like 307 00:25:41.200 --> 00:25:45.440 there's also a website that explains how to build projects in Total. So you 308 00:25:45.519 --> 00:25:49.480 sort of go between interacting with it and editing it to get to the next 309 00:25:49.519 --> 00:25:52.480 level all the time to figure out how does this actually work? And each 310 00:25:53.160 --> 00:26:00.200 page in that application teaches you a new concept, and after that, I'd 311 00:26:00.200 --> 00:26:02.880 say, if you want to really dive in and understand more, we have 312 00:26:02.920 --> 00:26:07.000 a ton of videos on YouTube, both of us explaining different concepts, but 313 00:26:07.000 --> 00:26:11.319 also a lot of us just building applications in total and showing how to achieve 314 00:26:11.359 --> 00:26:19.519 different things. Cool, and what you described is free. Correct if I'm 315 00:26:19.599 --> 00:26:26.839 just building a demo website, and the restriction is that that demo website is 316 00:26:26.880 --> 00:26:33.799 hosted on your own platform, correct, yeah, yeah, so, and 317 00:26:33.839 --> 00:26:37.920 it'll be hosted on our domain. You'll get a subdomain of dot total dot 318 00:26:37.920 --> 00:26:42.279 site. If you then upgrade to pay tier, then you can add your 319 00:26:42.279 --> 00:26:48.400 own domain and also remove our little branding logo on the bottom of the So. 320 00:26:49.799 --> 00:26:56.720 So purchasing is a let's call it the premium plan basically gets rid of 321 00:26:56.759 --> 00:27:02.640 the advertiser, the on page advertising, and gets you your own domain that 322 00:27:02.680 --> 00:27:06.559 you can Basically, I purchased a domain somewhere and I can associate it with 323 00:27:06.720 --> 00:27:14.279 the total website that I've built exactly anything else that I can purchase well, 324 00:27:14.279 --> 00:27:18.200 So we have different plans. The initial startup plans are for we sort of 325 00:27:18.440 --> 00:27:23.400 price that quite low at twenty dollars per user, and the Ateria is for 326 00:27:23.440 --> 00:27:27.920 small startups to get started and start building in total. Right, So wait 327 00:27:27.960 --> 00:27:33.319 a minute, it's twenty dollars per user, not per website or something like 328 00:27:33.400 --> 00:27:37.640 that. It's twenty dollars per month for up to three users, and then 329 00:27:37.680 --> 00:27:41.440 you pay sixteen dollars a month if you do it annually. Yeah, but 330 00:27:41.519 --> 00:27:45.519 that is also today per project. So if you have multiple projects you need 331 00:27:45.559 --> 00:27:48.519 to be that needs to be in a paid plan. You're paying for each. 332 00:27:49.559 --> 00:27:56.160 Okay, so I've questioned what is the tool set used to build tottle? 333 00:27:56.000 --> 00:28:02.920 What's protecting? Well, that's my favorite question, and because well, 334 00:28:03.000 --> 00:28:10.160 there's there's quite a few things. Our database is hosted by by Superbase, 335 00:28:10.680 --> 00:28:14.279 which is also where we get authentication a few other things. So we're running 336 00:28:14.640 --> 00:28:18.920 our whole data off Superbase. Uh. Then we have sort of a back 337 00:28:19.039 --> 00:28:22.839 end slash middle back end. I don't know if this needs a new word 338 00:28:23.119 --> 00:28:26.160 or have one I'm not familiar with, but we're running on cloud flower workers. 339 00:28:27.680 --> 00:28:32.279 We use them for two things. We both use them for server rendering 340 00:28:32.319 --> 00:28:38.640 applications because obviously we're storing total code. If you will it's like an adjacent 341 00:28:38.680 --> 00:28:44.480 format. We store the data in right and that needs to be rendered out 342 00:28:44.480 --> 00:28:48.000 as HTML, and we do that on cloud flow workers, so it's very 343 00:28:48.039 --> 00:28:52.480 close to the use always right and cloud Fly is also kind of our back 344 00:28:52.559 --> 00:28:56.880 end for the total Editor, so we use the feature they have callt durable 345 00:28:56.880 --> 00:29:04.000 objects that lets you essentially create a singleton instance of a data store where you 346 00:29:04.000 --> 00:29:08.400 can in memory store a lot of information, and then you can connect to 347 00:29:08.440 --> 00:29:12.440 that with web sockets. And they kind of have this property where there can 348 00:29:12.480 --> 00:29:17.720 only ever be one globally one instance of that globally, so when you create 349 00:29:17.759 --> 00:29:22.440 a branch of your product or a project, you'll connect to your instance of 350 00:29:22.440 --> 00:29:29.519 this server, which in memory keeps all the files up to date. So 351 00:29:29.559 --> 00:29:36.160 that means we can get things like live collaboration going by just having people right 352 00:29:36.240 --> 00:29:40.599 to that, and we can actually solve a lot of concurency issues by having 353 00:29:40.880 --> 00:29:44.799 the server close to people and not and just saying, well, the latest 354 00:29:44.920 --> 00:29:49.319 the latest right wins because there's never more than a few milliseconds latency between the 355 00:29:49.400 --> 00:29:56.279 user and the gerbil object. So that's sort of the back in part all 356 00:29:56.319 --> 00:29:59.400 of the front and the whole editor. Our website, our block. Everything 357 00:29:59.440 --> 00:30:03.359 is built in top So we built the whole project in the project itself. 358 00:30:03.880 --> 00:30:10.720 Nice. Well that's very cool indeed. So you mean all the complex logic 359 00:30:11.519 --> 00:30:18.359 of you know, the editing process and whatnot, all of that is actually 360 00:30:18.440 --> 00:30:26.119 done in your visual programming language. Yes, everything from like the left panel 361 00:30:26.240 --> 00:30:30.240 sidebar where you're showing all the elementaries with all the different nodes and all the 362 00:30:30.319 --> 00:30:36.880 drag and drop interactions of those, the formulateds that you can space pan around 363 00:30:36.960 --> 00:30:42.519 and summing it out while also editing these notes that are aligning themselves. Everything, 364 00:30:42.839 --> 00:30:45.920 everything is built in total of that project. So I think the current 365 00:30:47.000 --> 00:30:51.119 phrases that you're eating your own dog food? Is that correct? Ah? 366 00:30:51.279 --> 00:30:53.519 It's such a negative term though, isn't it? But yes, I think 367 00:30:53.559 --> 00:30:59.960 so. I think that's have you had dog food? Well, don't you? 368 00:31:00.119 --> 00:31:02.440 By some of the ads I've seen as a newer dog foods might not 369 00:31:02.480 --> 00:31:06.000 be so bad anymore. Oh okay, good quality stuff out there. So 370 00:31:06.119 --> 00:31:11.000 it depends on what you're eating, I guess. But it definitely highlights the 371 00:31:11.079 --> 00:31:15.079 fact that you know, this tool is powerful. I mean, if you're 372 00:31:15.119 --> 00:31:21.160 able to build Toddle, then anything that the user might want to build is 373 00:31:21.200 --> 00:31:26.400 probably covered. Yeah, I would say I I've been working on a lot 374 00:31:26.440 --> 00:31:30.279 of projects. I used to do a lot of contracting. I lived in 375 00:31:30.279 --> 00:31:34.000 London for like six years and jump company every six months because when you're young, 376 00:31:34.240 --> 00:31:41.160 that's really fun. And I've been working on anything from small startups to 377 00:31:41.440 --> 00:31:45.920 like enterprise companies, And I don't think I've ever built anything as complicated as 378 00:31:45.960 --> 00:31:49.160 a no code as like this, right, this is in pure complexity, 379 00:31:49.279 --> 00:31:55.240 This is by far the worst because there's so many things like you only ever 380 00:31:55.319 --> 00:31:59.480 work with recursive data structures, right, that's the only everything's a tree, 381 00:32:00.079 --> 00:32:04.960 everything's like recursion. Everything is like trying to figure out how how do I 382 00:32:05.079 --> 00:32:07.319 how does it work when you have like five hundred components on the screen at 383 00:32:07.319 --> 00:32:12.279 the same time, because these editor interfaces are very complex, right, Yeah, 384 00:32:12.880 --> 00:32:16.039 yeah, I know, I know, I know what you mean. 385 00:32:16.559 --> 00:32:20.480 As I said, I've worked at Wix, I've worked on the wis editor. 386 00:32:20.559 --> 00:32:23.440 The Wix editor is a huge applications, one of the largest I've ever 387 00:32:23.480 --> 00:32:31.759 worked on. It is actually implemented in React and it's a hundreds of thousands 388 00:32:31.799 --> 00:32:37.160 of lines of code. But to be fair, Wix actually does a lot 389 00:32:37.240 --> 00:32:40.920 of dog fooding as well. So the editor is built on Native, but 390 00:32:42.160 --> 00:32:46.279 a lot of the UH interfaces there are built using Wix, and I think 391 00:32:46.359 --> 00:32:51.319 that's the same. It's true for workflow and and I really dig this approach 392 00:32:51.440 --> 00:32:55.759 because it really shows that you're serious about the tool your building when you're able 393 00:32:55.799 --> 00:33:00.680 to use it for that sort of thing. But it does bring me up 394 00:33:00.319 --> 00:33:08.400 bring me to another question. When you start thinking code, you start thinking 395 00:33:08.680 --> 00:33:17.200 version control. Yes, how do you do version control in total? Well, 396 00:33:17.319 --> 00:33:22.039 so that was one of the things I had a lot when I started 397 00:33:22.039 --> 00:33:25.200 this project, was that there's all these there's all these different things that needs 398 00:33:25.240 --> 00:33:29.119 to happen for this to work. And when I said work, I mean 399 00:33:29.240 --> 00:33:31.559 work for me. Right. You can build a version, you can build 400 00:33:31.559 --> 00:33:35.880 a no code tool that lets do do version control, and most of them 401 00:33:35.920 --> 00:33:38.880 have some version of that, but it's usually the live version and the development 402 00:33:38.960 --> 00:33:45.559 version, right. And I mean I'm coming from teams of like five if 403 00:33:45.559 --> 00:33:47.920 it's a small team, or twenty people for last teams, and like that 404 00:33:49.200 --> 00:33:52.240 is never going to work, right, And live collaborations all cool, but 405 00:33:52.279 --> 00:33:54.759 the reality is we don't use it very much because people work asynchronously, right, 406 00:33:55.480 --> 00:34:00.960 So you need essentially something like it gigs gets style version control if you 407 00:34:01.039 --> 00:34:05.119 want to be able to work in a team, and like we're a small 408 00:34:05.200 --> 00:34:08.199 team at TOTL, but we're still pushing like new features all the time and 409 00:34:08.239 --> 00:34:15.599 we're working asynchroously. So unfortunately GIT is kind of tied to lines of code, 410 00:34:15.239 --> 00:34:19.760 so GIT wasn't really an option, or at least I couldn't find any 411 00:34:19.760 --> 00:34:23.039 way to make that work based on at different kind of diffing, right, 412 00:34:23.039 --> 00:34:28.840 you need a different diffing algorithm when you're working with adjacent data structure compared to 413 00:34:28.960 --> 00:34:32.920 just lines of code. So we had to build own, and we actually 414 00:34:32.960 --> 00:34:40.920 build it in a procedural sequel because we wanted to run directly in our database 415 00:34:44.039 --> 00:34:49.000 so that we could essentially store all our files. So when we're storing files 416 00:34:49.039 --> 00:34:54.039 and super base, we have a table called blobs, which is stolen exactly 417 00:34:54.119 --> 00:34:57.599 from GIT. I spent like a couple of months trying to figure out, 418 00:34:57.719 --> 00:35:00.159 well maybe weeks, maybe it was months, trying to figure out how kit 419 00:35:00.320 --> 00:35:07.159 actually works, like going around looking up looking up like little hash keys and 420 00:35:07.199 --> 00:35:10.119 how do I get ls all these things and get cats or what they're called, 421 00:35:10.199 --> 00:35:14.480 right, to try and figure out what is the actual storage model and 422 00:35:14.519 --> 00:35:17.840 how does this work? And then replicate it like probably three percent of that, 423 00:35:19.400 --> 00:35:22.039 which is a lot, right, because gives a kid is massive, 424 00:35:22.199 --> 00:35:27.599 right, But it's the same basic concept, like all files are stored based 425 00:35:27.599 --> 00:35:31.840 on the hash of their content, so that you can store these snapshots all 426 00:35:31.880 --> 00:35:37.639 the time of your files without actually and like a snapshot can be the whole 427 00:35:37.840 --> 00:35:43.320 project. But you don't have to double right files that hasn't changed, right. 428 00:35:44.360 --> 00:35:46.880 And since we don't actually ever do like you just never do a manual 429 00:35:46.920 --> 00:35:51.880 commit, what we do instead is that every time you save, we basically 430 00:35:51.920 --> 00:35:58.920 start a throttled say commit timer, so it automatically commits every ten seconds if 431 00:35:59.000 --> 00:36:04.800 you're making changes, and then every one of these becomes a snapshot in the 432 00:36:04.880 --> 00:36:12.400 database that has a reference to these content in theexpiles. It's interesting because last 433 00:36:13.000 --> 00:36:16.840 a few episodes back, we actually had I forget his name. I'll remember 434 00:36:16.840 --> 00:36:24.880 in a second, the guy from Bito dev Uh. It was guillade Cham 435 00:36:25.199 --> 00:36:31.440 from Bitto dev uh and uh, and they also kind of have their own 436 00:36:31.480 --> 00:36:37.599 substitute for for get for from for a different reason uh. Even though there 437 00:36:37.679 --> 00:36:44.280 is a certain amount of similarity in a sense, but It's interesting to see 438 00:36:44.320 --> 00:36:50.239 people coming up with with GIT alternatives effectively for various reasons, although I'm not 439 00:36:50.239 --> 00:36:52.599 sure the term alternative is the correct one, because you're not coming to a 440 00:36:52.679 --> 00:36:57.800 regular project and saying, hey, use this instead of GIT. You're you're 441 00:36:57.920 --> 00:37:02.199 using GIT for your own very special use case, uh, which which I 442 00:37:02.239 --> 00:37:06.880 appreciate. Oh. I mean if I if I could have used skit, 443 00:37:06.960 --> 00:37:09.079 I would absolutely have used SKIT. I would not have gone down this road 444 00:37:09.119 --> 00:37:14.679 if I had an alternative, Right, but you still have the possibility to 445 00:37:14.800 --> 00:37:20.400 like go back to a previous revision or version, or maybe even do something 446 00:37:20.480 --> 00:37:24.840 like a diff between you know, or bisecting or stuff like that. All 447 00:37:24.920 --> 00:37:30.079 all this, all the the good stuff that people associate with visual editing with 448 00:37:30.360 --> 00:37:34.159 not visual think with source control. I mean, sorry, Yeah, we 449 00:37:34.360 --> 00:37:37.840 we have a somewhat limited set, Like obviously we're not implementing all of GIT, 450 00:37:38.000 --> 00:37:43.360 right, so we've we've made some We've made some high level decisions that 451 00:37:43.440 --> 00:37:45.760 at least for now, seems to work just fine. So it's always trunk 452 00:37:45.800 --> 00:37:50.760 based. You only ever merging out from like branching out from from the main 453 00:37:50.800 --> 00:37:54.840 branch and only ever merging into the main branch. Right, and that sort 454 00:37:54.840 --> 00:38:00.400 of lets you push real quick like that frequently and that that's seems to be 455 00:38:00.679 --> 00:38:02.239 just fine. That was kind of similar to the workflow we used to have 456 00:38:02.840 --> 00:38:07.519 when working in code as well. So for now we're sort of we're doing 457 00:38:07.559 --> 00:38:13.440 some shortcuts compared to full get set up right. Yeah. By the way, 458 00:38:13.480 --> 00:38:22.239 it is worth mentioning that Donus Torvaldez actually wrote git in like a weekend 459 00:38:22.239 --> 00:38:29.679 and people, you know, people know him for Linux, but they maybe 460 00:38:29.719 --> 00:38:35.039 they should know him forget Uh. It took me longer to copy it that 461 00:38:35.159 --> 00:38:38.920 it took him to write it. Then. Yeah, he basically was committing 462 00:38:39.000 --> 00:38:44.320 get into get by by the beginning of the week or something like that. 463 00:38:45.599 --> 00:38:52.880 Yeah, it's an interesting story. He's quite a guy. Yeah. So 464 00:38:53.719 --> 00:39:00.679 how big do your flow charts get? Well? Interesting, the flow charts, 465 00:39:01.159 --> 00:39:06.039 which is sort of an us the action part, they never get very 466 00:39:06.039 --> 00:39:14.079 big. I think the biggest we have is something like twenty nodes or so, 467 00:39:14.119 --> 00:39:17.039 like they're they're not that complex, and that's because again we all the 468 00:39:17.199 --> 00:39:22.800 actual computation logic is moved into formulas, right, so we have this separation, 469 00:39:22.679 --> 00:39:27.280 but the actual steps is like if this, then do that each of 470 00:39:27.320 --> 00:39:31.000 these workflows are like one action happening when you, for example, you click 471 00:39:31.039 --> 00:39:35.280 a button. So if you end up taking a look at like let's say 472 00:39:35.280 --> 00:39:37.679 your rat code and go, well, how many things am I doing when 473 00:39:37.679 --> 00:39:43.119 I click this button? The reality is you're rarely doing that. Many most 474 00:39:43.159 --> 00:39:45.599 of the lines are in order to computer value, and then some of them 475 00:39:45.719 --> 00:39:50.840 actually are aren't working side effects. Right, So the float charts are usually 476 00:39:50.920 --> 00:39:54.480 quite small. We actually in our UI we actually have a very small window 477 00:39:54.559 --> 00:40:00.440 initially dedicate to them because that sort of sits on top of the editor because 478 00:40:00.599 --> 00:40:06.400 most of them are just two or three actions in a row, or even 479 00:40:06.440 --> 00:40:08.800 one is the most popular, right most of the times, just when you 480 00:40:08.840 --> 00:40:12.960 click this button, do this one thing, or do these two things or 481 00:40:12.960 --> 00:40:16.440 these three things, and so most of them are really really simple. The 482 00:40:16.519 --> 00:40:22.239 more complex one again, it never gets out of hand for them. Formulas 483 00:40:22.239 --> 00:40:27.400 are kind of a little bit different. We have some formulas in total that 484 00:40:27.480 --> 00:40:34.800 are definitely not small, but we also have the options of like you can 485 00:40:34.840 --> 00:40:37.599 go and say this part of the logic, I can extract that into what 486 00:40:37.639 --> 00:40:40.880 we call a component formula and then essentially give it a name. Right, 487 00:40:40.920 --> 00:40:45.519 so you have all the same just like you wouldn't write all this in one 488 00:40:45.599 --> 00:40:47.840 function and JavaScript, you can do the same in totals. I'm going to 489 00:40:47.880 --> 00:40:53.280 extract this assign that a name. So this thing is manageable, right, 490 00:40:54.639 --> 00:41:00.920 and so effectively you only view one flow charge at a time, really correct? 491 00:41:00.119 --> 00:41:06.079 Yeah? Yeah? So and and a quote unquote program might have a 492 00:41:06.119 --> 00:41:08.400 lot of flow charts in it, but each one of them would be small, 493 00:41:08.840 --> 00:41:14.199 and you only view each flow chart by itself. But you can nest 494 00:41:14.360 --> 00:41:21.360 flow charts by associating flow charts with functions. Yeah, we don't really have 495 00:41:21.400 --> 00:41:25.519 anything we specifically called functions. We we sort of functions are it are divided 496 00:41:25.559 --> 00:41:35.119 into actions and formulas I mean formula yeah, yeah, by the way, 497 00:41:35.320 --> 00:41:38.280 so a question about that. I mean, over the years, there has 498 00:41:38.360 --> 00:41:44.880 been a lot of research into visual programming h. Most of it, by 499 00:41:44.920 --> 00:41:49.719 the way, from what I know, kind of failed. H. There 500 00:41:49.719 --> 00:41:53.920 have not been a whole lot of really successful visual programming environments. You might 501 00:41:54.000 --> 00:42:00.519 say that small talk was a visual programming environment and that it's aceeded, but 502 00:42:00.599 --> 00:42:07.760 it was actually based on code and and actual and actual solutions like you mentioned 503 00:42:07.840 --> 00:42:13.239 one that was like for for kids. I know that there were a lot 504 00:42:13.320 --> 00:42:17.519 of attempts in that area. So so my two questions I guess are, 505 00:42:20.400 --> 00:42:23.400 how did you come with your own unique model for doing it? Is like, 506 00:42:23.559 --> 00:42:28.840 is it like based on research or just your ideas or what or things 507 00:42:28.840 --> 00:42:34.480 that you've read elsewhere? And why do you think yours will succeed where so 508 00:42:34.639 --> 00:42:40.239 many previous attempts have you know, effectively failed. That is a good question, 509 00:42:40.440 --> 00:42:46.960 and it's very very true that this is like visual programming is not something 510 00:42:46.960 --> 00:42:52.280 where most programs go, oh, that's definitely the future, because it's very 511 00:42:52.280 --> 00:42:57.880 definitely the past. And I think I think it's been fun when people come 512 00:42:58.000 --> 00:43:00.039 like, oh, this is brand new, you got to go. The 513 00:43:00.199 --> 00:43:06.039 earliest example I've found is nineteen seventy six, so it's not that new. 514 00:43:06.920 --> 00:43:10.960 It's before we had visual operating systems. The first visual program language was created. 515 00:43:13.320 --> 00:43:15.760 So there's nothing new about it, right. It's it's very much an 516 00:43:15.800 --> 00:43:23.280 elephant graveyard of a tech technology choice to get into. But I think I 517 00:43:23.840 --> 00:43:29.960 think I at least have a theory as to why the other languages failed or 518 00:43:30.000 --> 00:43:34.360 why this never really made it anywhere. And essentially, whether I'm right or 519 00:43:34.400 --> 00:43:38.159 not, it's probably going to determine, you know, the success But my 520 00:43:38.360 --> 00:43:44.320 theory is that when you take a programming language and then translated one to one 521 00:43:44.519 --> 00:43:49.599 into a visual programming language, which most of the attempts are right. Sketch 522 00:43:49.679 --> 00:43:52.119 is also a good example of this, right, which is the one I 523 00:43:52.199 --> 00:43:54.480 mentioned earlier. Right, when you try to do it one to one, 524 00:43:55.400 --> 00:44:00.599 what you end up with is a programming language that takes up a lot more 525 00:44:00.639 --> 00:44:07.880 screen space than code, and so and tuddle has the same a feature or 526 00:44:07.000 --> 00:44:12.880 problem depending on your perspective. Right, it takes a lot more space on 527 00:44:13.079 --> 00:44:17.679 screen for something that like what would essentially be like four or five lines of 528 00:44:17.719 --> 00:44:22.480 code, will take up an entire screen in total. And if you start 529 00:44:22.519 --> 00:44:27.199 then going through your code and saying, well if I needed an entire screen 530 00:44:27.239 --> 00:44:30.239 for every four or five lines of code, it's very clear why that's not 531 00:44:30.360 --> 00:44:37.400 a particularly good setup, right, So the trick to visual program I'll interrupt 532 00:44:37.400 --> 00:44:40.519 you for a second just to make it clear for our listeners why this is 533 00:44:40.519 --> 00:44:45.119 the case. One example that I saw on your demos was the simple if 534 00:44:45.519 --> 00:44:52.800 statement that in code, if is literally like four lines of code. If 535 00:44:52.039 --> 00:44:59.480 condition you know, then something else, something else. So that's literally like 536 00:44:59.599 --> 00:45:04.920 four lines code, and in your case it's a box and a line and 537 00:45:04.960 --> 00:45:12.199 a box and a line. So obviously all that visual representation takes much more 538 00:45:12.920 --> 00:45:15.840 screen area than, like you said, than just four lines of code. 539 00:45:16.079 --> 00:45:21.559 Yeah, and that it's kind of the same thing as this code. If 540 00:45:21.559 --> 00:45:24.239 it fits on the screen, it's a lot easier to understand than if you 541 00:45:24.280 --> 00:45:30.000 have to start navigating right once functions start to not fit on a single screen 542 00:45:30.000 --> 00:45:31.440 and in all they start to get a lot more complicated to work with. 543 00:45:31.639 --> 00:45:35.800 It's not the only dimension, but it's a pretty good indication. And the 544 00:45:35.880 --> 00:45:39.119 same thing is true for visual programming. So if you just translate code one 545 00:45:39.159 --> 00:45:44.000 to one to a visual medium, you'll just have a like you'll do a 546 00:45:44.000 --> 00:45:46.880 lot of panning all the time, and that's the worst possible way to find 547 00:45:46.920 --> 00:45:52.079 anything right. That's never going to work. So the trick is the trick 548 00:45:52.119 --> 00:45:55.239 at least what toddled us is always to try and say, when can we 549 00:45:55.360 --> 00:46:00.800 break this up into smaller parts that are easy to navigate. And because we 550 00:46:00.920 --> 00:46:07.400 sort of broke up at like the action's workflows and the formulas here, it 551 00:46:07.559 --> 00:46:12.840 means that normally one workflow with twenty notes might have been massive, right, 552 00:46:12.880 --> 00:46:15.599 it might have been take up like one hundred screens or something, maybe not 553 00:46:15.679 --> 00:46:20.239 quite but something along those lines, right, because it's just takes up so 554 00:46:20.320 --> 00:46:27.400 much space. But because you're navigating this visually and quite effectively, you don't 555 00:46:27.400 --> 00:46:30.239 have to look at it all of it at the time, So you get 556 00:46:30.280 --> 00:46:35.800 to sort of break your program up into smaller bits and only like really easily 557 00:46:35.880 --> 00:46:39.320 navigate to the part of your code or visual code in this case that you 558 00:46:39.360 --> 00:46:44.960 need to work with. And that kind of lets us get away with using 559 00:46:45.000 --> 00:46:49.440 a lot more space for all of it because the tools we've given you to 560 00:46:49.599 --> 00:46:52.000 navigate your code, if you want to say, like or your app are 561 00:46:52.000 --> 00:46:59.119 a lot more efficient. Interesting, And again it has to do with the 562 00:46:59.199 --> 00:47:04.679 fact that you're never seeing the flow chart as a whole. It's never listed 563 00:47:04.719 --> 00:47:08.920 this one big flow chart. It's always a specific flow chart that's associated with 564 00:47:08.960 --> 00:47:17.840 a particular event leading to a particular action, let's say, through some formulas. 565 00:47:19.480 --> 00:47:22.800 Yeah, and and I guess also the reactive aspect is also a big 566 00:47:22.840 --> 00:47:30.039 help here, because again you split things and at the reactivity boundary. Yeah, 567 00:47:30.079 --> 00:47:35.599 for sure. I mean in terms of it's not entirely something I mean, 568 00:47:35.639 --> 00:47:37.960 I mean, nothing is ever something you invented entirely right, it's always 569 00:47:38.000 --> 00:47:43.320 based on a hundred other things. There was a lot of as you probably 570 00:47:43.360 --> 00:47:46.079 heard already me talking about functional program I think I took a lot of inspiration 571 00:47:46.119 --> 00:47:52.239 for that paradigm exactly because it does make this hard split between what is in 572 00:47:52.599 --> 00:47:59.800 functional program impure and impure and and it's a it's a quite nice and quite 573 00:48:00.159 --> 00:48:04.280 sensible way to divide your program and actually saying, okay, when if I 574 00:48:04.320 --> 00:48:07.039 separated into what is an action, what is the side effect, and what 575 00:48:07.159 --> 00:48:12.840 is not there's there's, it sort of becomes a nice logical boundary to split 576 00:48:12.920 --> 00:48:15.639 your program down, and that that's a big part of why it works quite 577 00:48:15.679 --> 00:48:21.559 well. And actions I assume always work as if they're synchronous, correct, 578 00:48:22.239 --> 00:48:27.920 Yes, but an action can emit an event, yeah, sure, but 579 00:48:28.559 --> 00:48:31.880 for example, it's waiting for it's downloading data. Until you get the data, 580 00:48:31.960 --> 00:48:36.960 you won't proceed to the next step. Yeah. So when they're listed 581 00:48:37.000 --> 00:48:40.599 sort of underneath each other in a in an action chain, they're executing synchronously, 582 00:48:40.719 --> 00:48:45.000 and if you want to wait for something, right, that action can 583 00:48:45.000 --> 00:48:47.440 then say I'm going to admit an event eventually, and then you can start 584 00:48:47.480 --> 00:48:52.559 a new workflow of that. M okay, cool, So it's really, 585 00:48:53.840 --> 00:48:59.360 as you said, you were inspired by various things, but it was really 586 00:48:59.400 --> 00:49:04.880 your own invention. Yeah, I mean, it depends on how much you're 587 00:49:04.880 --> 00:49:09.519 inspired. I suppose it's definitely a new take. It's not entirely original. 588 00:49:09.639 --> 00:49:15.360 Like, you can find a lot of examples of products and different kind of 589 00:49:15.440 --> 00:49:20.159 visual programming that are very similar in many ways, but I hadn't really seen 590 00:49:20.199 --> 00:49:25.360 anyone do it in the same way for solving the same kind of problem. 591 00:49:27.000 --> 00:49:32.239 So really I have two more quick questions. One is what's your solution for 592 00:49:32.280 --> 00:49:37.159 authentication? I mean, if you build Toddle with it, and obviously you 593 00:49:37.199 --> 00:49:40.400 have I think you mentioned that you have authentication built in, but does it 594 00:49:40.480 --> 00:49:45.000 mean that also if I'm using total for my own app, I can integrate 595 00:49:45.039 --> 00:49:53.199 authentication into it. And the second question is is it is any part of 596 00:49:53.239 --> 00:50:00.360 it open source? Yes, good question. I'll take them in in the 597 00:50:00.159 --> 00:50:05.519 order of the given. Then, So the way we handle authentication is that 598 00:50:05.599 --> 00:50:09.800 because we're front and only, we don't technically handle authentication, right, Authentication 599 00:50:09.920 --> 00:50:15.880 kind of have to live with your data because that's what you're authenticating and essentially 600 00:50:15.920 --> 00:50:22.000 limiting access to so authentication is very much a back end problem. What we've 601 00:50:22.079 --> 00:50:29.280 done is essentially create a simple way for storing an authentication token as an HDP 602 00:50:29.440 --> 00:50:34.480 only cookie, and then we have a proxy layer also on cloud layer, 603 00:50:34.800 --> 00:50:37.440 where you can proxy API request too, and we can essentially just smack that 604 00:50:37.519 --> 00:50:45.519 token onto it. So let's say you are making a request for your API 605 00:50:45.679 --> 00:50:49.719 and for that to work, it needs to have a specific user token as 606 00:50:49.760 --> 00:50:53.119 an outhheader. Right. What you would do in Total is essentially you would 607 00:50:53.119 --> 00:50:59.119 first authenticate through your service and then either come back to Total while redirect, 608 00:50:59.280 --> 00:51:01.679 or you might be like use a name password log in and then get a 609 00:51:01.760 --> 00:51:07.320 token back, and then you're send essentially told token Total to stall that token, 610 00:51:08.039 --> 00:51:10.760 and we'll store it as an outtoken, and that'll be stored in ACP 611 00:51:10.880 --> 00:51:15.039 only, so there's no even if there's foreign scripts on the side, they're 612 00:51:15.039 --> 00:51:16.719 not going to be able to sniff that out because it's never actually sent back 613 00:51:16.760 --> 00:51:22.800 to the client again. And then when you're making an API request from Total, 614 00:51:22.960 --> 00:51:25.880 it first goes through our cloud fly worker and there you can then configure 615 00:51:25.920 --> 00:51:30.239 to say I want to I want to add this token in as authentication for 616 00:51:30.280 --> 00:51:34.239 this request, and then that'll make the authenticate request and come back with the 617 00:51:34.320 --> 00:51:38.159 data. So you're using the cloud Flare worker as a sort of a segregation 618 00:51:38.280 --> 00:51:45.920 layer. In this context, you're offloading what needs to be secure off of 619 00:51:45.079 --> 00:51:51.519 the front end into the cloud flow worker where third party code can't access it. 620 00:51:52.159 --> 00:51:55.559 Take that. That was not actually the point of doing that. It's 621 00:51:55.599 --> 00:52:00.840 just I really hate cause issues. So that's kind of that was the original 622 00:52:00.880 --> 00:52:06.079 point of saying, if I just added real simple proxy here, I never 623 00:52:06.159 --> 00:52:09.679 have to deal with that again. And that sounds very nice, But actually 624 00:52:09.679 --> 00:52:15.920 authentication became a really nice added solution there. And I think we're sort of 625 00:52:15.960 --> 00:52:22.280 looking at can we build some more interesting like right now we cash response based 626 00:52:22.280 --> 00:52:24.840 on the service send cash head, but we can see a lot of cases 627 00:52:24.880 --> 00:52:30.559 what it might actually be nice to be able to override that locally and say, 628 00:52:30.199 --> 00:52:32.519 I know the service edge you can only cast for this long, but 629 00:52:32.559 --> 00:52:37.079 actually I would like you to cast for just a few seconds or set some 630 00:52:37.119 --> 00:52:42.440 stale vi revalidate for extra performance. Right, So it's sort of it sort 631 00:52:42.480 --> 00:52:45.440 of adds on a lot of benefits that we can also tap into down the 632 00:52:45.480 --> 00:52:52.760 line. Cool and about the open source part, there's nothing right now that 633 00:52:52.920 --> 00:52:59.559 is open source we are talking about it. I'm not quite sure the main 634 00:52:59.599 --> 00:53:04.079 reason it's not open sources actually just that we thought it would take longer to 635 00:53:04.159 --> 00:53:12.559 develop in public than private. And the other bit is we're quite tied into 636 00:53:13.920 --> 00:53:15.920 cloud Flare at this point. Right there's quite a lot of our text that 637 00:53:16.039 --> 00:53:20.559 is built on cloud Flair, and I think we're probably going even further that 638 00:53:20.599 --> 00:53:23.840 way because there's a lot of that technology that just kind of fits really perfectly 639 00:53:23.880 --> 00:53:29.639 with this. Well. You know, there's an interesting argument going on happening 640 00:53:29.719 --> 00:53:35.119 currently about how tied to versaill is next year. Yes, and that's like 641 00:53:35.320 --> 00:53:42.519 kind of the quote unquote epitome of open source development environment. Yes, yet 642 00:53:42.559 --> 00:53:50.400 it turned out it turns out at least that's what For example, Kent wrote 643 00:53:51.119 --> 00:53:57.280 in his critique that it's a lot of it is tied to versall services, 644 00:53:57.360 --> 00:54:00.719 but you know, it is what it is liking at home that is epitome. 645 00:54:02.719 --> 00:54:07.280 E me, sorry, It's okay. I said it epotone for a 646 00:54:07.320 --> 00:54:09.880 long time too, because you read it and you never hear anyone say it. 647 00:54:10.199 --> 00:54:14.920 Did you also say fake aid instead of pasade? No? But I 648 00:54:14.960 --> 00:54:23.239 said subtle when I was in third grade, or so I said subtle before 649 00:54:23.320 --> 00:54:28.440 we wrap up, because we are really approaching the end of our of our 650 00:54:28.639 --> 00:54:36.039 show. Is there anything else that our listeners really need to know about total, 651 00:54:36.599 --> 00:54:39.360 you know, additional things that are worth mentioning. Yes, I would 652 00:54:39.400 --> 00:54:42.920 like to know where the name came from myself, if you have like little 653 00:54:42.920 --> 00:54:47.280 toddlers running around at home or what was the what were you trying to emphasize 654 00:54:47.280 --> 00:54:52.519 with that name? I do, well, I don't actually have a toddlers 655 00:54:52.599 --> 00:54:54.320 right now. I've got a six year old and a three months old, 656 00:54:54.880 --> 00:55:04.320 so I've got on either side. But well, the name is my wife 657 00:55:04.360 --> 00:55:07.519 came up with that. I am not sure. I'm tiredly understand why it's 658 00:55:07.519 --> 00:55:13.239 called Totle, but when she suggested it, everyone liked it, and eventually 659 00:55:13.320 --> 00:55:16.320 I sort of felt powerless to do anything about it. And now I've kind 660 00:55:16.360 --> 00:55:22.719 of grown to like it, like it's it's sort of just become. You 661 00:55:22.760 --> 00:55:25.519 know, when you name something long enough, right, eventually anything else sounds 662 00:55:25.559 --> 00:55:30.480 weird anymore? Is the epitome of a great name? I mean epitome? 663 00:55:30.719 --> 00:55:38.559 Sorry it is. So while while we've been talking, I've been playing around 664 00:55:38.599 --> 00:55:42.760 with this thing, and I got into the calculator app because I figured, 665 00:55:42.800 --> 00:55:45.320 Okay, that's going to be simple programming. I'll be able to understand. 666 00:55:45.239 --> 00:55:53.280 And I actually don't. I fundamentally don't get how this is working, like 667 00:55:53.719 --> 00:55:57.400 somewhere very well. I guess i'd have to go through the tutorial, but 668 00:55:57.440 --> 00:56:00.920 I just opened up the example app and I oh, and I click on 669 00:56:00.000 --> 00:56:05.679 the equals button and I look at the click action and I can see there's 670 00:56:05.679 --> 00:56:12.199 the flow chart just going down and it and it sets result to zero, 671 00:56:12.519 --> 00:56:19.000 which seems weird because I wanted to set the result of whatever the previous operations 672 00:56:19.000 --> 00:56:22.880 were put together. It sets the operator to nothing and then it sets the 673 00:56:22.920 --> 00:56:27.840 current value to zero. That's not my experience. When I click on two 674 00:56:27.920 --> 00:56:32.559 plus two equals, I get four, not zero. So is there how 675 00:56:34.280 --> 00:56:37.639 what? What's what's the paradigm here or the thing that I need to know 676 00:56:38.000 --> 00:56:43.880 to to make this work? From a brain, I think, I think 677 00:56:43.920 --> 00:56:45.960 this is less of a total thing. And just like I had a really 678 00:56:45.960 --> 00:56:50.280 weird idea in my head about how the dates a model for calculator should be. 679 00:56:51.199 --> 00:56:54.280 Oh okay, but it's essentially it's sort of evolved because I wanted that 680 00:56:54.400 --> 00:56:59.639 additional features and a lot of calculus have when you when you keep planting pressing 681 00:56:59.679 --> 00:57:04.119 equals, like, there's a lot way when it sort of repeats these things. 682 00:57:04.639 --> 00:57:07.519 So I ended sort of doing a few versions of that, and I 683 00:57:07.559 --> 00:57:09.199 think this was sort of what I came up with was a smart way of 684 00:57:09.320 --> 00:57:16.519 in a relatively minimal way to store this. But yeah, I don't think 685 00:57:16.519 --> 00:57:20.440 that it's not so much the total thing is. It's just I mean I 686 00:57:20.480 --> 00:57:22.719 would have probably done the same thing in code, had I've been in the 687 00:57:22.760 --> 00:57:25.199 same mindset at that point. Well, I see where it sets the variable, 688 00:57:25.199 --> 00:57:29.840 but I don't see where it actually carries out the actions, Like where 689 00:57:29.960 --> 00:57:36.239 is the logic stored in this thing? So the logic is usually stored in 690 00:57:36.280 --> 00:57:39.800 the formulas, right, that's usually where you compute the values. Let me 691 00:57:39.960 --> 00:57:49.639 check and see, because I don't. I don't see it right until AJA 692 00:57:49.840 --> 00:57:53.280 finds it. Anything else undressed that you want to mention, Yeah, I 693 00:57:53.280 --> 00:57:58.920 think I think one thing that's that's because we've been talking very much developer focused 694 00:57:58.960 --> 00:58:02.079 on on this podcast. One of the really nice benefits of tottle, and 695 00:58:02.159 --> 00:58:07.559 actually one of the main things that we find out that we found out we 696 00:58:07.599 --> 00:58:13.760 were solving here is that in a traditional setup, especially when you work on 697 00:58:13.760 --> 00:58:16.199 the front end, we sort of end up having like an assembly line of 698 00:58:16.719 --> 00:58:22.679 usually a product manager that feeds the idea for a feature to a designer that 699 00:58:22.760 --> 00:58:27.440 then builds a design that feeds it the developer that then goes to a QA 700 00:58:28.320 --> 00:58:31.199 and then all of this goes back and forth in certain circles depending on how 701 00:58:31.239 --> 00:58:35.360 much many people get back in the iterations. Right, it rarely ever goes 702 00:58:35.440 --> 00:58:38.320 once. And even though we do say agile a lot, and we love 703 00:58:38.400 --> 00:58:43.800 saying agile all of us, I think it's still kind of an assembly line, 704 00:58:43.840 --> 00:58:46.840 right, it still kind of follows this frokite off. And one of 705 00:58:46.880 --> 00:58:52.480 the things we really found about Tottle that was quite unique is that everyone in 706 00:58:52.559 --> 00:58:57.360 our company are building in total. So my co founder is a designer and 707 00:58:57.400 --> 00:59:00.960 he's not I mean, he's not how very capable in total and can do 708 00:59:01.119 --> 00:59:06.480 quite complex logic, but he doesn't like to do it, so he rarely 709 00:59:06.480 --> 00:59:10.239 does. Right, He'll just work on the design and the fact that we 710 00:59:10.280 --> 00:59:15.719 can build in the same platform, and it's not like a handoff where he 711 00:59:15.840 --> 00:59:19.599 first does all the visual design and figma and then shows me a picture of 712 00:59:19.599 --> 00:59:22.440 an UI and now can you go and build it from scratch? Right? 713 00:59:22.000 --> 00:59:25.519 But actually he'll just build it and if he needs help with the logic, 714 00:59:25.599 --> 00:59:31.280 I can step in fix that, or I'll build something and it'll look absolutely 715 00:59:31.360 --> 00:59:35.679 horrible, which actually happens a lot, and then he'll just go in after 716 00:59:35.840 --> 00:59:37.320 and make it look like what did you look like? And the fact that 717 00:59:37.360 --> 00:59:43.400 we don't have to work in cereal but can work in parallel for this has 718 00:59:43.440 --> 00:59:47.440 been an incredible speak boost. And it's not just us, like our new 719 00:59:47.480 --> 00:59:52.719 head of marketing is like building our partnership platform in total because he didn't want 720 00:59:52.719 --> 00:59:55.440 to, like, we were doing other things right and this was important, 721 00:59:55.440 --> 01:00:02.960 so it's better he just did it it. Interesting point here there are a 722 01:00:04.039 --> 01:00:12.480 growing number of solutions out there that are implementing some mechanism of taking figma and 723 01:00:12.559 --> 01:00:19.599 translating it into code, So that step seems to be I wouldn't quite call 724 01:00:19.679 --> 01:00:23.400 it solved, but much easier than it used to be. So it's much 725 01:00:23.480 --> 01:00:30.000 less about the process of here's a pigma drawing or whatever, now recreate it 726 01:00:30.039 --> 01:00:35.119 in code. You can't get the initial code very often these days, or 727 01:00:35.159 --> 01:00:39.320 at least something that you can start from. What is missing from my perspective, 728 01:00:39.800 --> 01:00:45.519 and I think the total is a very interesting solution. Here is the 729 01:00:45.559 --> 01:00:51.639 other way around. I mean that figma to code is kind of a one 730 01:00:51.719 --> 01:00:57.000 time thing. You can't really take the code and the changes you've made in 731 01:00:57.039 --> 01:01:04.199 the code and then take it back into Pigma up uh and so so it's 732 01:01:04.239 --> 01:01:09.159 like one shot uh. And and if some if the designer then wants to 733 01:01:09.199 --> 01:01:15.559 make a change, the process needs to kind of happen again in a lot 734 01:01:15.639 --> 01:01:21.280 of ways, or it becomes a very manual process then and and and what's 735 01:01:21.320 --> 01:01:24.400 really great about the solutions like puddles is that they kind of you know, 736 01:01:25.039 --> 01:01:30.840 this throwing things over the wall doesn't doesn't exist. It's it's the same. 737 01:01:30.960 --> 01:01:36.239 It's a single tool that handles the entire flow. So so yeah, for 738 01:01:36.320 --> 01:01:39.320 sure, I see that a lot of value there. And it's not just 739 01:01:39.400 --> 01:01:44.360 the signus, right, Like if if a product manager goes in and says, 740 01:01:44.360 --> 01:01:46.880 like, why on earth is this text there? This makes this is 741 01:01:46.920 --> 01:01:50.679 not descriptive role, This doesn't make any sense, right, this is the 742 01:01:50.719 --> 01:01:52.480 worst way of explaining this feature. They can just go and fix it, 743 01:01:52.559 --> 01:01:57.599 right, And it doesn't break everything. It doesn't like it's not going to 744 01:01:57.880 --> 01:02:02.199 automatically not compile because they're changing text or they're changing an image, and that's 745 01:02:02.280 --> 01:02:06.800 really easy to do, right, So like a lot of time, making 746 01:02:06.800 --> 01:02:09.239 a change in tottle is as easy as making a jury ticket for that change, 747 01:02:09.480 --> 01:02:14.320 and then you can just not do that and that the amount of speed 748 01:02:14.400 --> 01:02:19.679 and velocity you get from that is like like unlike anything I've seen before. 749 01:02:20.840 --> 01:02:25.480 And Total right now is a five person company that are building a no code 750 01:02:25.480 --> 01:02:30.480 platform or a visual development platform for building this right, It's not an easy 751 01:02:30.519 --> 01:02:34.719 problem to solve, and the reason why we can do that is because we 752 01:02:34.800 --> 01:02:39.199 can be incredibly efficient with our time by actually using Total to ship this way. 753 01:02:42.599 --> 01:02:46.679 Okay, I think we're more or less hitting the end of our show. 754 01:02:46.880 --> 01:02:51.719 So before we go to picks, if people want to contact you undress 755 01:02:51.800 --> 01:02:55.960 to you know, learn more about Totle, try it out, you know, 756 01:02:57.840 --> 01:03:02.280 discuss your thoughts and ideas about no code and stuff like that. What's 757 01:03:02.519 --> 01:03:07.000 the best way to reach you and discuss these things with you? So they 758 01:03:07.000 --> 01:03:10.880 can definitely find me on Twitter. I'm quite a lot on there. My 759 01:03:12.039 --> 01:03:15.320 Twitter handle is color of It, which is a character from the hit Tiger's 760 01:03:15.320 --> 01:03:19.760 Guide to the Galaxy. But I spelled his name wrong, so maybe we'll 761 01:03:19.760 --> 01:03:24.000 add it in a note somewhere. But they can also find both me and 762 01:03:24.039 --> 01:03:28.159 everything about I'm totled a dev There's a lot of links to both Twitter and 763 01:03:28.199 --> 01:03:32.400 social platforms and total. Maybe we should have set it up, Francis t 764 01:03:32.559 --> 01:03:39.000 O D D L E. Yeah, obviously it will be in the show 765 01:03:39.039 --> 01:03:45.760 notes and the episode title and whatnot. Okay, then I think it's time 766 01:03:45.840 --> 01:03:51.079 to push on into picks. So who wants to start a j You want 767 01:03:51.079 --> 01:03:57.599 to go first this time? Sure? Okay, let's see what if I 768 01:03:57.639 --> 01:04:04.719 got to pick here? Ah. I watched the movie A Man Called Auto 769 01:04:05.159 --> 01:04:12.039 with Tom Hanks, and I have mixed feelings about it. Give me both. 770 01:04:13.320 --> 01:04:18.159 But so it started out so hilarious, and then about halfway through the 771 01:04:18.199 --> 01:04:26.760 movie it kind of switched from being a comedy to being the message and I 772 01:04:26.800 --> 01:04:30.159 it just I yeah, And then I started to feel like I was getting 773 01:04:30.199 --> 01:04:35.599 preached to, and so the ending I just felt like they ruined it. 774 01:04:35.679 --> 01:04:40.519 They had such a strong comedy and then but they had to make sure that 775 01:04:40.599 --> 01:04:45.280 I got the message. They could have just had the elements that they had 776 01:04:45.320 --> 01:04:50.840 without explicitly telling us that, you know, men are stupid nitwits and you 777 01:04:50.880 --> 01:04:55.559 know, like this, like it just it got weird. It got weird 778 01:04:55.679 --> 01:05:01.719 somewhere between half and halfway through and three quarters through. And but I think 779 01:05:01.760 --> 01:05:10.400 I'd still recommend it because the first half was so good. I just, 780 01:05:10.480 --> 01:05:15.480 I mean, just the opening scene was comic gold. Comic gold. He's 781 01:05:15.559 --> 01:05:23.960 buying a length of rope at the hardware store, right and they won't sell 782 01:05:24.039 --> 01:05:30.639 him five feet of rope because the computer system doesn't have a way to It's 783 01:05:30.719 --> 01:05:33.119 just yeah, and he's he's like, you mean to tell me the computer 784 01:05:33.199 --> 01:05:38.880 can't do math on five feet anyway? It just so for me, and 785 01:05:38.920 --> 01:05:43.360 being a grumpy old man myself, I just I loved it. It was 786 01:05:43.519 --> 01:05:46.599 it was just so good. And until he got to the part where he's 787 01:05:46.639 --> 01:05:54.400 got a really weird relationship with his neighbor who is married and has a husband, 788 01:05:54.760 --> 01:05:59.480 and yet he and her are going on dates. And I didn't say 789 01:05:59.480 --> 01:06:01.400 it that way out, but that part was pretty good. Oh okay, 790 01:06:02.000 --> 01:06:05.800 but yeah, that scene in the story reminds me of the father of the 791 01:06:05.800 --> 01:06:09.639 Bride of Steve Martin where he goes to the store and he's raging about how 792 01:06:09.679 --> 01:06:13.039 there's so many buns and a hot dog package. But you know, there's 793 01:06:13.079 --> 01:06:15.760 more hot dogs in a package than there are buns in a package, and 794 01:06:15.760 --> 01:06:19.440 he's taking out and yeah, get short in jail because of his rampage at 795 01:06:19.440 --> 01:06:26.519 the store. Yeah, so that that anyway, So I still recommend it. 796 01:06:26.599 --> 01:06:30.400 I just I just wish they would have just kept the comic tone the 797 01:06:30.440 --> 01:06:34.880 whole way through rather than switching over to I just I don't know whatever it 798 01:06:34.920 --> 01:06:42.679 was towards the end there. But but then let's see, other than that, 799 01:06:42.800 --> 01:06:45.519 I had something, had something I was gonna pick, and I don't 800 01:06:45.519 --> 01:06:51.920 remember what it is, so well, will uh, I'll pick the Super 801 01:06:51.960 --> 01:06:56.280 Mario Brothers movie as well. Oh no, wait, wait there was a 802 01:06:56.320 --> 01:07:00.199 The Prime again? What he did something? Oh now I remember John them 803 01:07:00.199 --> 01:07:02.679 Blow? So the Prime again? Primagen, Primagen, primage. I keep 804 01:07:02.679 --> 01:07:10.280 on saying it wrong. I'm sorry, my apologies to the Prime. He 805 01:07:10.280 --> 01:07:14.840 he I watched a video of his where he did a reaction to Jonathan Blow, 806 01:07:14.880 --> 01:07:18.000 but he did actually watch the full Jonathan Blow video. Jonathan Blow is 807 01:07:18.039 --> 01:07:23.000 another crotchety old man that I would just get along with swimmingly, I am 808 01:07:23.039 --> 01:07:31.159 sure, and his his talk, the full one, was that the snippet 809 01:07:31.239 --> 01:07:35.440 was being reacted to. It is called Preventing the Collapse of Civilization, and 810 01:07:35.480 --> 01:07:41.280 there was some pure comic gold in this as well. But he talks about 811 01:07:41.280 --> 01:07:46.599 how we have all these records of civilizations with ancient mysteries that we can't unravel 812 01:07:46.800 --> 01:07:51.840 or we know a process by which it works or how it works, but 813 01:07:51.880 --> 01:07:57.920 we don't know how to reproduce it. And he talked about how software engineering 814 01:07:58.599 --> 01:08:05.320 may be in one of these peaks of civilization before the decline, where the 815 01:08:05.360 --> 01:08:11.440 wisdom of the ancients is lost and then people aren't able to to Uh. 816 01:08:11.480 --> 01:08:14.079 You got to watch the talk actually, and I'm not doing a justice and 817 01:08:14.119 --> 01:08:17.680 I'm making it sound probably more complicated and stupid, but it was super entertaining, 818 01:08:18.239 --> 01:08:26.000 great history lesson and some good laughs. And now now I've been watching 819 01:08:26.000 --> 01:08:31.079 some of Jonathan Blow's other stuff and he's based as they say, so Jonathan 820 01:08:31.119 --> 01:08:39.720 Blow by the way people are saying that, you know, archaeologists are saying 821 01:08:39.800 --> 01:08:44.520 that our age is our era is very problematic, that we're probably not going 822 01:08:44.560 --> 01:08:48.680 to leave any a lot of any records behind because everything is digital, so 823 01:08:50.600 --> 01:08:56.399 you know, in in a thousand years, there will be nothing left that's 824 01:08:56.520 --> 01:09:01.720 readable or accessible from from this era. And that's what kind of makes us 825 01:09:01.760 --> 01:09:08.159 think, you know, maybe the Egyptians did have supercomputers. Maybe maybe AI 826 01:09:08.319 --> 01:09:13.560 generated the pyramids. Yeah, okay, moving on, Steve, what about 827 01:09:13.600 --> 01:09:16.119 you. Let's see I actually have a couple of picks before we get to 828 01:09:16.119 --> 01:09:20.439 the high point of the episode, which is my dad jokes if you didn't 829 01:09:20.479 --> 01:09:26.800 know that Andreas So. First of all, AJ made a comment that reminds 830 01:09:26.880 --> 01:09:34.439 me of one of my favorite XKCD cartoons called Wisdom of the Ancients h and 831 01:09:34.680 --> 01:09:41.840 I think about it often, and it basically shows it says, never have 832 01:09:41.920 --> 01:09:45.119 I felt so close to another soul and so helplessly alone as when I google 833 01:09:45.159 --> 01:09:48.399 an error and there's one result a thread by someone with the same problem and 834 01:09:48.439 --> 01:09:54.439 no answer, last posted in two thousand and three, and it shows the 835 01:09:54.479 --> 01:10:04.960 guys shaking his is Denver Coder nine, Actually Denvercoder nine, what did you 836 01:10:05.000 --> 01:10:10.159 see? And I have I've actually used that comic in the past, like 837 01:10:11.079 --> 01:10:14.520 where I have posted a question like on stack overflow and never got an answer. 838 01:10:14.520 --> 01:10:17.000 And I'll come back and say, in order to avoid being this guy, 839 01:10:17.039 --> 01:10:20.079 and put a link to this cartoon and then I'll provide my answer, 840 01:10:20.760 --> 01:10:25.479 so God bless you. It's a great cartoon. It's not quite as good 841 01:10:25.479 --> 01:10:29.800 as Nerd Sniping or Bobby Tables in my estimation of x k CD cartoons, 842 01:10:29.800 --> 01:10:33.600 but it's one of the best. Or the pseudo pseudo make me a sandwich, 843 01:10:33.640 --> 01:10:42.039 that's the other one anyway. And then a definite highbrow piece of something 844 01:10:42.039 --> 01:10:45.039 to pick is an ad I have to see on Twitter. Normally I can't 845 01:10:45.039 --> 01:10:48.119 stand ads on Twitter and just get past them. But this is a very 846 01:10:48.119 --> 01:10:51.000 effective tool made by a company called I don't know, I said, resik 847 01:10:51.119 --> 01:10:58.880 b R e z K. And it is a fart machine toy rubber. 848 01:10:58.880 --> 01:11:01.640 It's awesome and just a little thing you hold in your hand and squeeze it 849 01:11:01.680 --> 01:11:08.279 and you can understand guess the sound that it makes. But looks like a 850 01:11:08.359 --> 01:11:12.039 very amazing tool and only thirteen bucks. So if anybody's got all that, 851 01:11:12.319 --> 01:11:17.399 Dad wasn't tempted, Oh, I was so tempted. Well, it's funny. 852 01:11:17.800 --> 01:11:25.039 Reminded me also because I got had a white elephant exchange at my gym 853 01:11:25.079 --> 01:11:28.439 here recently within the past couple of weeks, and one of the things that 854 01:11:28.720 --> 01:11:33.640 I gave as a toy that somebody else got was a whoopee cushion. So 855 01:11:33.960 --> 01:11:39.119 that tells you all you need to know about my humor. Anyway, now 856 01:11:39.159 --> 01:11:43.319 to the talking about your humor. Yes, speaking of my humor, the 857 01:11:43.399 --> 01:11:45.399 dad jokes of the week, and this here's a this is a Christmas themes 858 01:11:45.479 --> 01:11:51.239 question. What do you call a broke Santa Claus, Saint Nichol less. 859 01:11:54.520 --> 01:11:57.159 So well, by the way, I did figure out how to upload sound 860 01:11:57.199 --> 01:11:59.560 effects. I just got to get it done so I will have the rim 861 01:11:59.560 --> 01:12:04.560 shots for those who enjoy that. Number two, a Roman walks into a 862 01:12:04.600 --> 01:12:08.399 bar, holds up two fingers and says, I'll have five beers please, 863 01:12:09.479 --> 01:12:14.119 you know five? Okay, okay, that's a good one. If you 864 01:12:14.359 --> 01:12:16.039 if you've ever seen mel Brooks History of the World Part one, you know 865 01:12:16.079 --> 01:12:19.640 he's got all the visual gags throughout all his movies like this, and there's 866 01:12:20.399 --> 01:12:24.560 one of them is the X and V Tent X and V sent Store. 867 01:12:26.399 --> 01:12:30.239 Well you remember is that it's good to be the King? Yes, it's 868 01:12:30.239 --> 01:12:34.760 good to be the king. I think Patrick Stewart used the same thing in 869 01:12:34.800 --> 01:12:39.399 one of the rock in Robin Hood Men and Tights when he kisses made Marion 870 01:12:39.520 --> 01:12:43.760 it's good to be the king, and then finally questioned, so, how 871 01:12:43.800 --> 01:12:48.399 can a room full of married people be empty because there's not a single person 872 01:12:48.439 --> 01:12:57.359 in it anyway. Okay, so now it's my turn before we hand it 873 01:12:57.399 --> 01:13:01.840 over to you, Anderson and dressed. Sorry, So if you have you 874 01:13:01.920 --> 01:13:05.159 have a few moments more to think about what you want to pick. So 875 01:13:05.920 --> 01:13:11.039 I usually pick something about the war in Israel and Ukraine and depress everybody. 876 01:13:11.119 --> 01:13:15.720 So instead I won't talk about it that much. I just mentioned that I 877 01:13:15.239 --> 01:13:20.159 tweeted something in kind of a relation to that, which is one of my 878 01:13:20.239 --> 01:13:25.960 tweets that got the most likes ever. I think it got something like nineteen 879 01:13:26.000 --> 01:13:30.439 hundred likes, which is a lot for me, which is somebody tweeted that 880 01:13:30.800 --> 01:13:40.520 a stupid statement that you know that Jesus was Palestinian. Now you can be 881 01:13:40.600 --> 01:13:44.640 in favor of the Palestinians on this side of the debate. You can be 882 01:13:44.680 --> 01:13:47.800 in favor of Israelis. You can in fact be in favor of both sides, 883 01:13:48.640 --> 01:13:53.640 which is what I kind of tried to be, especially when I'm in 884 01:13:53.640 --> 01:13:59.680 a giving mood. But you know, don't try to rewrite history, please. 885 01:14:00.319 --> 01:14:05.319 You know Jesus was a Jewish Man living in a Kingdom of Judea. 886 01:14:06.079 --> 01:14:13.439 Yes, Palestinian hadn't even been created with a couple of centuries. That's that's 887 01:14:13.560 --> 01:14:15.600 kind of true. There was, there was the well, it's not exactly 888 01:14:15.640 --> 01:14:19.399 one hundred percent true. I mean, the Greeks living there did use the 889 01:14:19.520 --> 01:14:26.119 term Palestine or Philistine as as as a way to refer to the coastal region, 890 01:14:26.720 --> 01:14:30.159 but the province wasn't called Palestine until about a century and a half later 891 01:14:31.319 --> 01:14:35.800 anyway. So but you know, so I tweeted that, and I got 892 01:14:35.840 --> 01:14:39.600 a lot of likes for that, so wo be for me about that. 893 01:14:39.960 --> 01:14:45.520 By the way, epic too. Yeah. The other thing is that I 894 01:14:45.600 --> 01:14:48.159 really like the community notes feature. I mean, I'm I'm critical of a 895 01:14:48.199 --> 01:14:54.279 lot of things that Elon Musk did you know, does and did and whatnot, 896 01:14:54.840 --> 01:14:59.600 But the community notes are a great addition to Twitter. I think it 897 01:15:00.319 --> 01:15:02.880 x or whatever it's called these days, because you know, it makes a 898 01:15:02.960 --> 01:15:06.840 huge difference about these sort of things. And and in this case as well, 899 01:15:06.880 --> 01:15:10.920 I mean, people put you know, after I wrote my tweet, 900 01:15:11.000 --> 01:15:15.159 people put a community note in there that basically said something along the same lines, 901 01:15:15.640 --> 01:15:19.159 and and it's it's really I've yet to see a community note which I 902 01:15:19.239 --> 01:15:23.159 really objected to. Let's put it this way. Most of them have been 903 01:15:23.199 --> 01:15:31.520 really on point anyway. So and my final pick is we we watched the 904 01:15:32.039 --> 01:15:36.800 series on TV, which unfortunately turns out it's going it's going to have this 905 01:15:38.039 --> 01:15:43.039 only one season. It wasn't continued, but we really enjoyed it. It's 906 01:15:43.039 --> 01:15:49.840 called Lucky Hank. It's with Bob Odenkirk, who might be you know, 907 01:15:50.199 --> 01:15:56.119 very familiar from his roles on you know, on Breaking Bad and uh on 908 01:15:58.720 --> 01:16:04.920 ah, what's the better call? So exactly I've was having like my brain 909 01:16:05.000 --> 01:16:14.359 throws uh. And he plays the department chairman of the English of the English 910 01:16:14.439 --> 01:16:19.960 department in this like small college and it's like a comedy drama and we enjoyed 911 01:16:19.960 --> 01:16:25.359 it a lot. Uh. And unfortunately, like I said, it's it's 912 01:16:25.399 --> 01:16:30.079 not going to be continued for a second season. But I still really recommend 913 01:16:30.199 --> 01:16:33.520 watching watching this and you know, we enjoyed it. So those would be 914 01:16:33.560 --> 01:16:41.560 my picks, and what and do you have any picks for us? Yes, 915 01:16:41.640 --> 01:16:44.479 I do actually have a couple of picks. I think the first one 916 01:16:44.600 --> 01:16:46.800 since since we had a movie as the first pick, I want to add 917 01:16:46.800 --> 01:16:51.600 one in. I just finished watching The Last Action Hero with my wife. 918 01:16:51.720 --> 01:16:57.039 Not exactly a recent movie, but you hadn't seen it before, and I 919 01:16:57.119 --> 01:17:00.039 got to say, I think that's a classic that still holds up. So 920 01:17:00.079 --> 01:17:02.800 that's gonna be my first pick. I can still remember the ads for that 921 01:17:02.880 --> 01:17:08.279 when that movie first came out, and they had they would do. They 922 01:17:08.279 --> 01:17:14.800 had two voice actors doing spoofs of stallone and Schwartzenegger, And the one line 923 01:17:14.800 --> 01:17:17.399 I always remember for this is you have more like Last Action zero, you 924 01:17:17.439 --> 01:17:20.720 know, still on making fun of Schortzenegger. But yeah, that brings back 925 01:17:20.760 --> 01:17:26.600 some memories. Excellent, just sneaking another dead joke in like that. That's 926 01:17:26.760 --> 01:17:29.439 masterfully done. By the way, Oh thank you. Lots of practice. 927 01:17:29.600 --> 01:17:31.239 That was I can't take credit because that was actually a line from the ad, 928 01:17:31.279 --> 01:17:35.520 but it was still a good one. But yeah, I think that 929 01:17:35.520 --> 01:17:40.479 that one still holds up with my book. The other thing is a little 930 01:17:40.479 --> 01:17:45.319 bit on topic. Actually it's a it's a talk you can find it on 931 01:17:45.399 --> 01:17:51.000 YouTube by god called Brett Victor, who for studying different kinds of use of 932 01:17:51.000 --> 01:17:57.560 interfaces and the kinds of ways we interact with computers, and he did a 933 01:17:57.600 --> 01:18:01.239 talk called the future of programming, and the whole setting, the whole sort 934 01:18:01.239 --> 01:18:05.119 of theme of the talk is that he's pretending to be giving this talk I 935 01:18:05.159 --> 01:18:12.279 think in nineteen seventy something around there. It's actually in like I think, 936 01:18:12.319 --> 01:18:15.560 early two thousands, but he's sort of pretending. So he brought an overhead 937 01:18:15.600 --> 01:18:18.439 projector on stage and he's changing all the slides and doing the whole thing, 938 01:18:18.520 --> 01:18:23.760 playing it long, and he's talking about that from this point in time when 939 01:18:24.520 --> 01:18:29.560 computers really started to take off and everybody could see it was going to be 940 01:18:29.600 --> 01:18:32.039 the future, but nobody had any idea what that future looked like. He 941 01:18:32.159 --> 01:18:35.880 stood there and said, what are the predictions we're making, and what will 942 01:18:35.880 --> 01:18:40.840 it definitely look like? And obviously none of those predictions actually ended up being 943 01:18:40.880 --> 01:18:45.520 true. But it's a really interesting take both in how many times people couldn't 944 01:18:45.880 --> 01:18:49.880 dream big enough compared to what was actually going to happen, but also how 945 01:18:49.960 --> 01:18:55.960 many times where we may be settled for something that wasn't what it could be 946 01:18:56.239 --> 01:18:59.439 right, like we could have probably had more right why didn't this happen? 947 01:19:00.159 --> 01:19:04.399 The interesting thing about people making predictions is that we generally take what we know 948 01:19:05.239 --> 01:19:11.359 and we extrapolate on it. We we rarely think about you know, it's 949 01:19:11.439 --> 01:19:15.399 essentially impossible to think about the new ideas. So like when people in like 950 01:19:15.520 --> 01:19:21.199 the fifties imagined what our century will look like, they thought, hey, 951 01:19:21.239 --> 01:19:27.119 we have cars, we know about planes, so we'll probably have flying cars. 952 01:19:27.840 --> 01:19:32.920 But nobody thought about, I don't know, like like an iPhone, 953 01:19:33.279 --> 01:19:40.560 because you know, the concept just you know, it wasn't there. So 954 01:19:41.199 --> 01:19:45.840 you take the ideas that you have and you extrapolate from that. There's a 955 01:19:45.960 --> 01:19:50.520 famous story about, you know, when when semiconductors were starting to happen, 956 01:19:50.640 --> 01:19:56.159 you know, prior to that, they had the vacuum tubes, before they 957 01:19:56.239 --> 01:20:01.279 had the semiconductors and transistors, and what one of the scientists was actually asked, 958 01:20:01.399 --> 01:20:06.840 you know, how small would have would a single bit get or would 959 01:20:06.840 --> 01:20:12.600 the and and he said, as small as small as possible, where when 960 01:20:12.680 --> 01:20:17.600 you where you can still replace one when it burns out. Now today obviously 961 01:20:17.680 --> 01:20:24.359 we we just take this entire wafer with billions of bits on it and just 962 01:20:24.399 --> 01:20:29.279 throw it in the garbage. But he couldn't envision that. Uh, you 963 01:20:29.319 --> 01:20:31.479 know, so we kind of like stuck in the paradigms that we know. 964 01:20:32.039 --> 01:20:40.039 It's really it's it's such an impossible to think of an alternative paradigm. One 965 01:20:40.119 --> 01:20:45.399 of the one of the founders of the university I went to, is quoted 966 01:20:45.399 --> 01:20:51.640 for saying flying machines that are heavier than air are impossible. There's a few 967 01:20:51.680 --> 01:20:58.159 people that made Yeah, it's it's an interesting statement. I saw interesting talk 968 01:20:58.199 --> 01:21:01.239 about it. Where the point of the speaker was is that they should have 969 01:21:01.399 --> 01:21:06.720 known it was possible because they could have opened the window and looked at birds. 970 01:21:08.239 --> 01:21:13.239 So if birds can do it, then you know, it's theoretically possible 971 01:21:13.319 --> 01:21:15.359 to build a machine that can do that can do it. But you know, 972 01:21:15.880 --> 01:21:21.479 which is his argument why self driving cars are eventually bound to happen, 973 01:21:23.000 --> 01:21:25.960 that if people can do it, we can eventually be able to build a 974 01:21:26.000 --> 01:21:31.640 machine that does it. Anyway, I think that more or less concludes our 975 01:21:32.079 --> 01:21:38.600 episode for today, So Undressed, thank you very much for coming on and 976 01:21:38.640 --> 01:21:43.239 telling and explaining total to us and telling us about it. It's very very 977 01:21:43.279 --> 01:21:46.560 interesting project and a very interesting take, and you know, I highly recommend 978 01:21:46.640 --> 01:21:53.840 for our listeners to check it out. And that's it. By everybody.