1 00:00:03,839 --> 00:00:07,240 Hello, everyone, and welcome to the latest episode of Hardwood Knocks. This 2 00:00:07,280 --> 00:00:10,119 is that I'm from. We'll here without my fantastic co host, Dan fa 3 00:00:10,199 --> 00:00:13,759 Valley, but we are joined by a very special guest. So we're going 4 00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:17,600 to jump right into that without any delayed introductions because we're joined by none other 5 00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:23,199 than the Ringer's Mirror and Fader. How's it going today, Hi, it's 6 00:00:23,239 --> 00:00:26,079 good. I'm so happy with you, with you all right back at you. 7 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:30,640 You know, we've texted so much and worked together on the book you 8 00:00:30,719 --> 00:00:34,240 have coming out, so it's nice to get this face to face interaction and 9 00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:38,399 get a chance to kind of debrief about the whole process. Well, I 10 00:00:38,439 --> 00:00:42,119 was going to say, I need everyone to listen and understand that your podcast 11 00:00:42,159 --> 00:00:47,200 host, Adam is a tremendous fact checker. He fact checked the whole book, 12 00:00:47,560 --> 00:00:52,840 and I was so happy that you did this because you fact check my 13 00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:56,679 work at Bleacher for years, and you know, I trusted you with this 14 00:00:56,719 --> 00:01:00,119 book. It was the most important assignment of my life. And I'm so 15 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:03,439 filled that we were able to work together and now talk about it because you 16 00:01:03,519 --> 00:01:07,439 did a tremendous job. So I'm very thankful. I appreciate it for sure, 17 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:10,760 But this is supposed to be gassing you up, not me. I 18 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:12,599 mean, I'll take it, but we're gonna have to. We're gonna set 19 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:17,319 the skills back in your balance here. But just before we dive into it, 20 00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:21,439 the details about the book, Jannis The Improbable Rise of an Envy of 21 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:26,640 an NBA MVP coming out on August tenth, Right, yes, that's less 22 00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:32,000 than a week from today. So how are we feeling. We're feeling antious, 23 00:01:32,359 --> 00:01:38,560 We're feeling excited, nervous, scared, happy, weird, tired, 24 00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:44,040 energized, all the feelings, all the feelings. It's basically like insert adjective 25 00:01:44,079 --> 00:01:48,239 here. One minute, I'm just like, Okay, it's gonna be fine. 26 00:01:48,239 --> 00:01:49,159 I got this. The next minute, I'm like, I'm so nervous 27 00:01:49,159 --> 00:01:52,439 what if they don't like it? And the next minute I'm like, Okay, 28 00:01:52,439 --> 00:01:55,560 it's gonna be great. I'm excited, this is so cool. Next 29 00:01:55,560 --> 00:02:00,040 minute, I'm nervous again. So I've been like heavily caffeinated and just just 30 00:02:00,159 --> 00:02:05,120 trying to stay awake. Yeah, I mean I get the nerves. I 31 00:02:05,159 --> 00:02:07,759 totally do, just because it's such a big project. But having read everything 32 00:02:07,919 --> 00:02:14,199 in such detail and having seen the reaction with various reviews and the excerpt that 33 00:02:14,199 --> 00:02:17,039 you posted on The Ringer, and even having like my wife read the introduction 34 00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:21,159 and she's not a basketball fan and she was totally into it and wants to 35 00:02:21,199 --> 00:02:23,240 read the whole book now, because it really always felt to me more like 36 00:02:23,280 --> 00:02:28,240 a human interest story that happened to be about a basketball player than a pure 37 00:02:28,319 --> 00:02:31,639 basketball book, which I know was was your intention too, exactly. Like 38 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:37,439 I think it's funny because as I was doing the book, I was like, 39 00:02:37,479 --> 00:02:40,080 wait, I need to add more basketball, Like wait, I forgot 40 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:44,840 this playoff series. Wait, we gotta add stuff about the jumper. You 41 00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:49,800 know, there's so much human stuff that you know it really for me, 42 00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:53,680 I really worked hard to create a balance because I want people that know nothing 43 00:02:53,719 --> 00:02:57,599 about basketball to dig this book, and I want people that are basketball nerds 44 00:02:57,639 --> 00:03:00,159 to have what they want, and they're like new and information about Yannis. 45 00:03:00,199 --> 00:03:04,759 So trying to have that balance was important, and especially as you know, 46 00:03:05,159 --> 00:03:07,840 there was so much that happened in his childhood, it was a real struggle 47 00:03:07,879 --> 00:03:13,960 to not begin America on page three hundred. But I can't be releasing like 48 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:17,120 Barack Obama length, you know, books in two volumes, so I have 49 00:03:17,319 --> 00:03:22,919 to I had to scale it back. Yeah, and I really felt like 50 00:03:23,159 --> 00:03:25,960 the most compelling portions were the pre America sections, you know, from a 51 00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:31,080 fact checking perspective, I think the most difficult part of it was the political 52 00:03:31,120 --> 00:03:37,560 stuff within Greece, specifically like talking about the Golden Dawn far right political party 53 00:03:37,639 --> 00:03:39,960 where you know, I don't think I anticipated when we first talked that I 54 00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:45,080 was going to be watching like two hour documentaries on Greek political parties as part 55 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:49,639 of the fact checking process. So I'm curious both what was most compelling to 56 00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:53,159 you before he arrived in America and what the toughest part was to write about. 57 00:03:54,280 --> 00:03:58,560 Yeah, you know, I hadn't heard of Golden Dawn before I embarked 58 00:03:58,599 --> 00:04:00,840 on this. I don't know about you, but that it's just something that 59 00:04:00,879 --> 00:04:02,759 I didn't learn about it. I know you have a classics background, so 60 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:08,159 you were more familiar with, you know, Greece, but I really wasn't, 61 00:04:08,199 --> 00:04:11,599 you know, And I think for me it's just that it was so 62 00:04:11,719 --> 00:04:15,360 much uncharted territory. I feel like people really don't know anything about that time 63 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:19,000 period in Jannie's life except sold trink gets by the street, and for me, 64 00:04:19,079 --> 00:04:23,120 I'm like, okay, but which street where? What did they sell? 65 00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:25,720 How much should they make? What do they do when they didn't have 66 00:04:25,759 --> 00:04:28,480 food? Like, I just had a thousand questions, And so for me, 67 00:04:28,639 --> 00:04:32,319 it was so important to not just include the challenges, but also moments 68 00:04:32,319 --> 00:04:38,199 of joy and levity and laughter and love and try to show the most complete 69 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:42,480 picture possible. I think, you know, some people might look at the 70 00:04:42,480 --> 00:04:46,759 book and say, wow, you know there's two pages about this Nazi group, 71 00:04:46,279 --> 00:04:50,000 Golden Dawn that was patrolling the neighborhood. But it's like, you have 72 00:04:50,079 --> 00:04:56,040 to put that because Jannis and his family don't exist in a vacuum. They 73 00:04:56,199 --> 00:05:00,000 are living in a culture that treats them differently because as they are black in 74 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:04,279 a white country, and that's important to have. So I think for me, 75 00:05:04,319 --> 00:05:09,639 I was like, how can I explore identity without making it feel like 76 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:14,120 a dense history book? And I would imagine that that was an even more 77 00:05:14,199 --> 00:05:19,000 difficult challenge because of the ongoing coronavirus pandemic. I know that this book for 78 00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:23,560 listeners who aren't aware, and I know that you've talked about this in a 79 00:05:23,639 --> 00:05:27,160 number of places, was completed in a year, which is a lot less 80 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:30,480 time than you typically receive for a book, particularly your first book, and 81 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:34,279 you aren't able to travel to Greece because of the pandemic, which meant that 82 00:05:34,319 --> 00:05:40,680 you're relying on, you know, translators and secondhand accounts of these places. 83 00:05:40,879 --> 00:05:46,759 So was that process more difficult less difficult than you imagined? And do you 84 00:05:46,759 --> 00:05:51,800 think the book gained something just from having to have those perspectives included? It 85 00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:56,000 was way more difficult. I know, you can probably look through your email 86 00:05:56,079 --> 00:05:59,560 right now and search my name and find like a thousand photos and videos. 87 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:01,720 Here's a random street in Cepolia. I just want you to know that this 88 00:06:01,759 --> 00:06:05,399 description is based off of this, and you know it was a bunch of 89 00:06:05,519 --> 00:06:09,399 that, right, And I didn't. I mean, I knew it was 90 00:06:09,439 --> 00:06:12,800 going to be hard. I mean, I signed a book deal mid March 91 00:06:12,879 --> 00:06:16,199 twenty twenty, and you know, I'd panicked that first, because that's just 92 00:06:16,240 --> 00:06:23,079 a normal reaction for a journalist that has this giant assignment in the most awful 93 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:28,560 of circumstances with virtual reporting. But then as I was starting to like find 94 00:06:28,639 --> 00:06:31,160 my groove in doing zoom interviews and stuff like that, I was like, 95 00:06:31,199 --> 00:06:34,120 well, this is the situation, and I don't have time to panic, 96 00:06:34,199 --> 00:06:36,920 and I don't have time to freak out, like I have to just get 97 00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:41,199 it done. And I think it made me a better reporter because I could 98 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:45,800 ask, you know, people living in Cepolia and living in Athens, just 99 00:06:45,879 --> 00:06:49,439 like when you look outside your door, what do you see? Paint the 100 00:06:49,439 --> 00:06:54,920 picture for me because I can't be there, And I think it pushed me 101 00:06:55,160 --> 00:07:00,160 to be even more relentless than I normally would about getting those details, as 102 00:07:00,199 --> 00:07:03,279 I wanted people to open these pages and you know, hear the sounds of 103 00:07:03,319 --> 00:07:08,560 Spolia, smell the streets, feel like they're walking with the honest and that 104 00:07:08,879 --> 00:07:13,920 just came from two hundred and twenty one interviews. So it was really really 105 00:07:13,959 --> 00:07:17,399 hard. And the time element was tough too, because you know, when 106 00:07:17,439 --> 00:07:21,480 we used to do stuff that leature together. My process was pretty simple in 107 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:26,800 the sense of I would do all my reporting, then I would write it. 108 00:07:27,319 --> 00:07:30,800 But this I had twenty thousand words a month due to my publisher, 109 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:35,360 and so I had to it's a lot of words. I had to a 110 00:07:35,399 --> 00:07:43,079 lot of words. I had to report and write and report and write all 111 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:46,360 at once. So I was completely out of my element. That's just not 112 00:07:46,439 --> 00:07:49,120 how I work, and it was hard to know like what should go in 113 00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:54,439 each chapter because I don't I haven't reported the whole thing out yet, so 114 00:07:54,519 --> 00:07:56,879 I don't really know like what's going to go away. So I think the 115 00:07:56,920 --> 00:08:01,040 whole time I was just like just trying to be kind to myself and just 116 00:08:01,079 --> 00:08:03,199 say, you know what, this is a new process. We're going to 117 00:08:03,279 --> 00:08:09,000 try our best. Did you have any trepidation when accepting the contract in the 118 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:13,000 first place because you didn't know where the story was going to go? And 119 00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:16,160 I'll preface that by saying, and this is my time to sing your praises. 120 00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:20,639 You know, even before we started working together, I told people that 121 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:24,360 I thought you were as good as it gets in this industry because of your 122 00:08:24,399 --> 00:08:28,959 ability to parse out the emotional core of a story and build on that. 123 00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:31,919 You know, I think that's true for basically everything you wrote at Bleacher Report, 124 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:37,320 at the Ringer, where there's a clear, like emotional portion of the 125 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:41,320 story that resonates and without knowing where exactly was it was going to go. 126 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:46,399 Did that make it more difficult to take on the project in the first place. 127 00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:50,279 Yeah, thank you for saying that. It definitely did. I was 128 00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:58,799 really just like, second guessing myself like how because I just don't You're going 129 00:08:58,799 --> 00:09:03,039 in is something blind? Right, Like, Yes, I spent the day 130 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:07,159 with the Honest and his family. Yes, I talked to the mom, 131 00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:11,840 which is something that people don't do. Yes, I know spend time with 132 00:09:11,879 --> 00:09:16,879 the Honest and was observing how they interact. But essentially it was a blank 133 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:22,600 canvas, not knowing where it would go. And sometimes I have a sense 134 00:09:22,639 --> 00:09:26,240 of where things are going with my stories because I'm not working on something for 135 00:09:26,279 --> 00:09:30,080 a year, you know, And it's a weird feeling to be like, 136 00:09:30,159 --> 00:09:35,399 all right, I have a year go and not really know which thread do 137 00:09:35,399 --> 00:09:39,240 you pull first. It's just such a gargantuan task. It's so overwhelming. 138 00:09:39,279 --> 00:09:45,159 So what helped me especially focus on the emotional aspect, like you're saying, 139 00:09:45,679 --> 00:09:50,360 is to shrink it to like fifteen assignments. I started looking at it like, 140 00:09:50,399 --> 00:09:54,080 this is fifteen long forms. Now that might seem like, oh my 141 00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:56,600 god, that's a lot, but that's a whole lot better mentally for me 142 00:09:56,639 --> 00:10:01,240 than one hundred and twenty thousand words. So I was able to get really 143 00:10:01,279 --> 00:10:03,879 down to the nitty gritty and just treat each chapter like it was a br 144 00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:07,080 story. Basically, yeah, fair enough. And I think that you know, 145 00:10:07,279 --> 00:10:09,480 you said that you didn't really know where it was going at first, 146 00:10:09,519 --> 00:10:13,399 and I think that's true even with the end, because as you're writing this, 147 00:10:13,480 --> 00:10:18,720 like you don't know, Isn't going to sign the Supermac's extension to stay 148 00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:22,919 in Milwaukee? Is he going to depart? So you know that's that's kind 149 00:10:22,919 --> 00:10:26,440 of where the book finishes, which makes it even more fascinating that the timing 150 00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:31,399 worked out so that this is being released in the aftermath of the Bucks winning 151 00:10:31,399 --> 00:10:33,879 a title. So I was kind of hoping that you could just take our 152 00:10:33,919 --> 00:10:41,600 listeners through your reactions to the Buck's journey through the playoffs, you know, 153 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:46,159 having texted with you throughout it, it was like everything there was a close 154 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:50,120 game, Like I was. I was watching the second to last game with 155 00:10:50,159 --> 00:10:52,679 the Nets, which I believe is the one where Kevin Durant's foot was on 156 00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:58,679 the line. Just as I was watching that with some friends in a restaurant. 157 00:10:58,120 --> 00:11:01,840 We had like our owns out and we were watching it there and I'm 158 00:11:01,879 --> 00:11:03,039 like getting the text from me like, oh my goodness, Like I can't 159 00:11:03,039 --> 00:11:09,159 believe they need to win this game. My text to you can be summed 160 00:11:09,240 --> 00:11:16,399 up as a thousand trillion exclamation points or WTF or the head splooge emoji that's 161 00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:22,000 exploding, or like the shocked face. Yeah. I was an emotional wreck 162 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:26,639 throughout this playoffs. I was living and dying with the books. It's just 163 00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:30,320 I'm not used to feeling these things. You know, we're not supposed to 164 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:33,840 cheer in the press box. But definitely did not know where was going. 165 00:11:33,879 --> 00:11:37,200 And the thing is is that a lot of people are like, how did 166 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:39,679 you know that the book was going to come out at this point? And 167 00:11:39,919 --> 00:11:43,320 I'm like, no, I didn't. There's just I just got lucky, 168 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:46,279 you know. I mean when I did this story on Jannis and Alex for 169 00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:52,799 a bleacher, Jannis hadn't even won his first MVP, Like I just again, 170 00:11:52,799 --> 00:11:54,519 it's just serendipity, Like I didn't even think I was going to talk 171 00:11:54,519 --> 00:11:58,000 to Jannis. I came to profile Alex because you know what, br we 172 00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:03,159 do a lot of who's next, who's the next big prospect, and then 173 00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:05,759 Yannis just happens to be there and then we just organically spend the day together. 174 00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:09,600 So that was lucky. And then there was this fear for me, 175 00:12:09,639 --> 00:12:13,080 like I have no idea how the book is going to end, because I 176 00:12:13,120 --> 00:12:16,360 know I wanted to end on whether he stays or goes. But if it's 177 00:12:16,399 --> 00:12:18,679 coming out in August twenty twenty one, which we thought was like peak free 178 00:12:18,679 --> 00:12:24,399 agency right now, and we thought he'd still be making his decision, I 179 00:12:24,399 --> 00:12:26,919 don't know how to end it. So I essentially was like, I'm gonna 180 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:30,799 just worry about that. The schedule my worry for another point, and I'm 181 00:12:30,799 --> 00:12:33,519 going to do that last. And then in December of twenty twenty he decides 182 00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:39,440 to stay. And the irony is that I announced that I was writing this 183 00:12:39,480 --> 00:12:45,720 book about fifteen seconds before Jannis decided he was staying, and everyone thought that 184 00:12:45,799 --> 00:12:50,840 I knew his decision and it was complete luck. Once again, I had 185 00:12:50,879 --> 00:12:54,200 no idea, and then for them to go on this title run would be 186 00:12:54,240 --> 00:12:58,240 like the final moment of serendipity. So I think what this teaches me is 187 00:12:58,279 --> 00:13:03,639 that just stay open. Sometimes it can be exhilarating when you don't know and 188 00:13:03,759 --> 00:13:09,120 incredibly scary, but you can't control what you can't control. And you know, 189 00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:11,840 I know there is going to be an epilog for the paperback edition, 190 00:13:11,879 --> 00:13:15,720 so I'll finally be able to update that, but I still think it ends 191 00:13:15,759 --> 00:13:20,039 on a note that makes sense even if it doesn't include the title run. 192 00:13:20,519 --> 00:13:24,960 I totally agree with you, and I thoroughly enjoyed that playoff run just for 193 00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:30,559 so many different reasons. It's like every round there was this new like reason 194 00:13:30,639 --> 00:13:35,600 for me to be totally fine with either side. So like the conference finals, 195 00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:37,519 like I'm wearing an Atlanta Hawks hat as we speak, so it's like, 196 00:13:37,559 --> 00:13:41,279 okay, if my favorite team wins, like, so be it. 197 00:13:41,759 --> 00:13:46,159 If the team that I now have this personal connection two wins. Rate then 198 00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:48,720 we get to the finals, and Chris Paul is one of my all time 199 00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:52,080 favorite players, and you know, I've long hated that that narrative that he 200 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:56,480 succumbs to the moment in the playoffs, so I was like, okay, 201 00:13:56,480 --> 00:13:58,919 either he's going to get a ring or yannas it's going to get a ring 202 00:14:00,279 --> 00:14:03,120 again, Like I'm cool with either one happening. So it was just like 203 00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:07,960 one great moment after another. From my end, It's so funny. I 204 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:13,919 know you and I like we really because you put in so much work on 205 00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:18,440 this, right, Like it's personal, like when you pour over material like 206 00:14:18,519 --> 00:14:22,600 that for so long, it's you cannot help but feel tied to it, 207 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:24,399 you know, and like I'm curious for you, like when you'd watch the 208 00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:28,399 honest, did you also like keep thinking of Lints in his life because I 209 00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:31,200 know that when I watched him in those playoffs, like I just I would 210 00:14:31,279 --> 00:14:33,480 just think of like, oh remember that one time when he was fourteen, 211 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:39,320 and it's like I can't see him the same. You see him sleeping on 212 00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:43,519 the mat in the gym and Cepolia, you see him traveling and hearing insults 213 00:14:43,559 --> 00:14:48,240 from local fans, and then you know the the early stage interviews that he 214 00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:52,480 was giving in the broken English and everything like it was just one memory flooding 215 00:14:52,519 --> 00:14:56,200 back after another one. So yeah, I mean it was great, and 216 00:14:56,440 --> 00:15:01,919 I felt like I had a particular emotional connection to the book and to him, 217 00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:05,320 just because of the stage that I was at in my professional career where 218 00:15:05,639 --> 00:15:09,080 I was still at Bleacher Report at the time, working as a quality editor, 219 00:15:09,159 --> 00:15:13,799 but I was seriously considering leaving the sports writing industry, and it just 220 00:15:13,879 --> 00:15:16,200 kind of burnt me out a little bit. I was ready to pursue something 221 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:18,080 new, you know. I I have a two and a half year old 222 00:15:18,639 --> 00:15:22,480 son at home, so it just felt like it was time to look elsewhere 223 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:26,639 because I'd kind of lost that passion for the sports industry, which people who 224 00:15:26,639 --> 00:15:31,120 have known me since I was a kid would find a hilarious statement. And 225 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:35,679 then like working on this and just realizing how much I enjoy this type of 226 00:15:35,679 --> 00:15:41,759 content when it's done so well as the book is. It totally reinvigorated me 227 00:15:41,799 --> 00:15:45,480 and pushed me to move on to the job that I'm at now at sportscasting. 228 00:15:45,799 --> 00:15:50,759 So it had such a personal connection for me that it was it was 229 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:54,120 I don't think I've ever rooted against the Hawks in my life, but I 230 00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:58,960 was strongly towards the Milwaukee side during that series. And I hope some of 231 00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:03,440 my friends are not less into this part now, Oh Adam, Like this 232 00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:11,120 makes me emotional because you know, like you are so awesome, you know, 233 00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:14,679 like I remember just being at br and I just see you in the 234 00:16:14,679 --> 00:16:18,399 margins of the Google doc and it's like, okay, good, like Adams 235 00:16:18,399 --> 00:16:21,080 on the dock, Its gonna be okay, you know, And it was 236 00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:25,200 the same way. Yeah, And like you just you did such an amazing 237 00:16:25,279 --> 00:16:29,399 job with this book and the I loved how you would write in the comments 238 00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:33,720 because you have to get classics background, you would give additional information, and 239 00:16:33,039 --> 00:16:38,080 you were like the perfect person for this, and I'm sure others out there 240 00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:42,120 would probably love to have you fact check them, because you should anyone, 241 00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:52,240 any any book people listening higher Adam full endorsement here on this is not I'm 242 00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:56,080 in there. I'm embarrassing him, and I'm okay with it because I want 243 00:16:56,120 --> 00:16:59,120 people to know, you know, I really I don't know if we've ever 244 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:02,440 talked about this, but I really just hate this idea of like the self 245 00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:04,720 made writer and like, oh my god, I am so good. You 246 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:10,039 know, it's just more hours in don't accept pay, Like yeah, yeah, 247 00:17:10,319 --> 00:17:11,480 yeah, I mean, if you're privileged enough to go that route, 248 00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:17,640 yeah, it's stupid hustle culture. And it also like ignores all the people 249 00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:21,000 that helped you and like, you know, yes, I wrote Jannis, 250 00:17:21,079 --> 00:17:23,440 but you fact checked the frick out of it and it wouldn't have been possible 251 00:17:23,519 --> 00:17:30,559 without you, and like writing is a collaborative, communal activity, and you 252 00:17:30,599 --> 00:17:33,759 know, I'm happy to be at The Ringer obviously, but yeah, I 253 00:17:33,799 --> 00:17:37,079 miss like our team at br And and just how collaborative we were. So 254 00:17:37,079 --> 00:17:40,480 it was just it was so cool to reconnect with you for this. It 255 00:17:40,519 --> 00:17:42,920 was so cool, absolutely, and I want to do it again on whatever 256 00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:47,119 the next book. Yeah, we got to find a new topic. So 257 00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:52,319 speaking of the future, though, I feel like you are one of the 258 00:17:52,359 --> 00:17:59,359 most uniquely qualified people to answer this question. Oh my god, Jannis is 259 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:03,039 now a two time MVP, he's an he's an NBA champion, he's a 260 00:18:03,039 --> 00:18:08,119 Finals MVP. He's achieved basically every goal that can be achieved at this stage 261 00:18:08,119 --> 00:18:14,079 of an NBA career. So what's going to motivate him moving forward? Honestly, 262 00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:17,759 I think that he is so relentless he will never be satisfied on the 263 00:18:17,759 --> 00:18:22,680 court ever, in any way possible. But I think that I'm I think 264 00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:30,799 his impact is beyond basketball now. I think that he now has matured into 265 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:36,519 this person that is captivating a global audience, and I think I hope he 266 00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:41,559 chooses to use his platform to talk more openly about issues outside of basketball and 267 00:18:41,599 --> 00:18:47,599 social issues and racial issues, and I think exploring more of his Nigerian identity 268 00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:52,119 is something that a lot of people you know, from Legos and other areas 269 00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:55,920 would love from him. And I think that I think we're just going to 270 00:18:56,000 --> 00:19:00,400 see somebody blossoming into their own off the court too, because we saw it 271 00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:03,640 on the work. But now he knows the power that his words have in 272 00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:08,160 his following, and I just think he is growing more and more comfortable with 273 00:19:08,319 --> 00:19:11,119 his voice, and as you know, like that's a journey in the book 274 00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:15,160 as well, going from somebody that doesn't want to open their mouth at all 275 00:19:15,799 --> 00:19:18,960 to being a little more hesitant to speaking up more to show in a little 276 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:22,319 bit more of himself. And I just think he's only twenty six years old, 277 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:26,240 so you know, I think part of the journey now is going to 278 00:19:26,279 --> 00:19:30,799 be the voice. Cut me off here if I'm revealing too many details from 279 00:19:30,839 --> 00:19:34,559 the as of now unreleased book, But one of the portions that really stood 280 00:19:34,599 --> 00:19:40,960 out to me was the fact that you included the criticism from back home for 281 00:19:41,079 --> 00:19:45,680 him where as he's developing this voice and starting to speak out about, you 282 00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:51,319 know, the Black Lives Matter protests, because those events unfolded in such close 283 00:19:51,359 --> 00:19:57,079 proximity to where the Bucks play that there was criticism from Greece and these Greek 284 00:19:57,160 --> 00:20:06,519 countrymen because he has not necessarily used that voice to speak about the racial issues 285 00:20:06,559 --> 00:20:10,640 back at home. So yeah, exactly is that the next step, you 286 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:15,599 think, yeah, I do, and I think that it was really important 287 00:20:15,599 --> 00:20:19,920 for me to interview I guess for context before I answer that it was really 288 00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:25,759 important for me to interview other black Greek players that either knew him growing up, 289 00:20:25,759 --> 00:20:29,839 that were friends with him, or just other Black Greek people living in 290 00:20:30,279 --> 00:20:33,319 Athens, because I wanted to know what their experiences were like, to kind 291 00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:37,920 of shed light on what Janniss was and is now. And you know, 292 00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:42,680 Janice was able to ascend in ways that these people were not because they didn't 293 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:48,400 get their citizenship fast tracked the way Jannis is was. And showing their stories 294 00:20:48,519 --> 00:20:52,440 is also kind of like a striking contrast to Jannis in the sense of had 295 00:20:52,519 --> 00:20:59,079 Yannis not made the NBA, likely his future would have ended up perhaps like 296 00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:02,519 these people if he didn't get a shot playing overseas or anything like that. 297 00:21:02,599 --> 00:21:08,880 So it is really important to show that it is not this like American dream, 298 00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:12,079 work hard and you will achieve everything. Life is a meritocracy, like 299 00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:15,160 a lot of luck was involved, and yes, he worked hard once he 300 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:18,319 got the opportunity, but all these other black breaks also worked hard, they 301 00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:22,079 just didn't get the chance to ascend. And the way that he did, 302 00:21:22,119 --> 00:21:25,160 so I thought that was just super important to have in there, and then 303 00:21:25,559 --> 00:21:30,920 to have those players that knew him growing up that are also children of you 304 00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:36,599 know, Nigerian parents, to say like, look, be honest, like 305 00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:40,319 we're suffering over here, like we want you to speak up more about race. 306 00:21:40,599 --> 00:21:45,880 And he is. He definitely is. But I think people back home 307 00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:48,519 would like to see more of it. And I think they said it in 308 00:21:48,559 --> 00:21:51,559 the book in such a respectful way that it's like, look, I would 309 00:21:51,599 --> 00:21:53,880 never say anything bad about yannest I love you, honest. But he doesn't 310 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:56,640 need to be a Colin Kaepernick. He doesn't need to be a Muhammad Ali. 311 00:21:56,720 --> 00:22:00,400 But I think he recognizes he has this platform and need to speak up, 312 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:03,039 and you know, we'd want to see it. I think one of 313 00:22:03,039 --> 00:22:07,640 my favorite quotes in the book comes from that section. And that guy who 314 00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:14,359 just said that quote. His name is et Tenosa ever Banagi, and he 315 00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:18,119 played on Paneth and iQOS his youth system, and he and Jannis were friends 316 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:21,640 growing up and played against each other. And I asked Eos, like, 317 00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:25,160 what do you want for the next generation of black migrants? Right? Like 318 00:22:25,279 --> 00:22:27,799 we're thinking about beyond the honest now, we're thinking about like not even just 319 00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:30,640 who's going to be the next Black Greek NBA player, We're just thinking about 320 00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:34,640 black Greek people in Athens. And he said I want them to be able 321 00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:40,039 to breathe and to dream, and that just hit me so much, you 322 00:22:40,039 --> 00:22:44,240 know, And so yeah, it was just really important to have broader context 323 00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:47,839 in the book. Yeah, and I think that that phrase just resonates even 324 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:52,160 more powerfully because I don't know if it was intended to refer to the I 325 00:22:52,319 --> 00:22:56,759 can't breathe slogan, right, I just can't hear that without thinking about it. 326 00:22:56,799 --> 00:23:00,000 In the connection, I was totally thinking that absolutely. Yeah, I 327 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:03,200 mean, just having read it, it wouldn't surprise me at all if you 328 00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:07,119 know, he makes serious endeavors down that road, because it seems like so 329 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:11,759 much of his motivation too, is making sure that his younger brothers, Alex 330 00:23:11,839 --> 00:23:15,599 in particular, do not have the same experiences that he did. You know, 331 00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:19,759 that's that's clear from the first couple of pages, right. Yeah. 332 00:23:19,799 --> 00:23:22,599 One of my favorite y honest quotes from our interview was like, it's easy 333 00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:26,559 to be motivated when you have everything. I didn't have a choice, and 334 00:23:26,599 --> 00:23:30,640 so you know, for Yannest, he's just like keenly aware of the differences. 335 00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:34,240 You know, my baby brother's got a private school education. I you 336 00:23:34,279 --> 00:23:37,680 know, when selling on beaches for two weeks at a time away from school. 337 00:23:37,759 --> 00:23:41,920 So he will never let his brothers get complacent, Like he will never 338 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:45,279 let them think that they're great or they don't need to work anymore. Like 339 00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:49,000 think about it, Yannis has the two hundred and twenty eight million dollars deal, 340 00:23:49,319 --> 00:23:55,200 and he's still acting like the guy about to get cut that pair of 341 00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:59,519 sneakers right, still hasn't bought a pair of sneakers nice to two. I 342 00:23:59,599 --> 00:24:03,759 know I can get the matter. I think that these twenty sixteen to seventeen 343 00:24:03,839 --> 00:24:07,160 first time we bought first class seats, Like there's just stuck in my head, 344 00:24:07,319 --> 00:24:10,599 you know. You know, also stuck in my head is how close 345 00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:12,440 my Hawks were to getting him, Like that was, Oh my god. 346 00:24:12,519 --> 00:24:15,559 I enjoyed. I enjoyed every part of the book except for that one. 347 00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:18,880 And I think, like I told you while I was working through that, 348 00:24:19,079 --> 00:24:22,039 like I don't want to do this part, like this is two pages now. 349 00:24:22,759 --> 00:24:27,000 I know there needs to be an Atlanta Hawks trigger warning on the book 350 00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:30,799 because there are several moments that are just a little spicy and too much to 351 00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:37,640 handle. Fortunately, I think that Atlanta sports fans are fairly the disappointment. 352 00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:44,559 But whether it's the Falcons, the Georgia Bulldogs, the Hawks, like we're 353 00:24:44,799 --> 00:24:48,279 equipped to handle that at least. Okay, okay, no warning needed. 354 00:24:48,519 --> 00:24:53,240 But yes, I really enjoyed reporting that because, like like I said at 355 00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:56,119 the beginning, like there was a little hesitancy for me, not hesitancy, 356 00:24:56,240 --> 00:25:00,359 but like a little worry, like what if I don't have enough basketball stuff, 357 00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:03,559 you know, because I just love the I just naturally gravitate towards the 358 00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:08,160 human. Atlanta gave me the chance to get the basketball breaking stuff that people 359 00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:14,240 who are obsessed with basketball would appreciate, like secret meetings in Italy and being 360 00:25:14,279 --> 00:25:18,279 in a shoddy basement and getting the staffers notes from the Hawks. And you 361 00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:22,519 know, Danny Ferry, the Hawks dam at the time, took him like 362 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:25,000 months to talk to me. And then he says at the end, we 363 00:25:25,079 --> 00:25:29,839 got through this without me crying. That's how emotional it is for him to 364 00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:32,920 have lost on you, honest. And I can imagine Hawks fans a felt 365 00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:34,839 the same way of watching him. Yeah, and the basketball part of his 366 00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:41,119 story is so interesting too, you know it is I was doing NBA draft 367 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:44,000 grades for Bleacher Report at the time, since I was still in the NBA 368 00:25:44,079 --> 00:25:48,839 writing game there, and it was a mad scramble to figure out, like 369 00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:52,440 who this guy is enough to like absolutely write a grade because he wasn't really 370 00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:57,160 on our radar and wasn't really on team's radar except for a couple of organizations. 371 00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:00,759 So there was you know, we were figuring out if it was Adetta 372 00:26:00,839 --> 00:26:07,119 Kumbo or Antona Kumbo, and you know, we went with the Nigerian name 373 00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:08,799 back then, and I remember writing that, you know, it seemed like 374 00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:14,039 he was at least a few years away from being a legitimate NBA player, 375 00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:18,000 which still gets called out on Twitter because there are old screenshots and it's like 376 00:26:18,079 --> 00:26:22,480 that wasn't actually that wrong, Like it took him that Adam Live. It 377 00:26:22,559 --> 00:26:26,119 took him a while to find his niche I remember there was there was one 378 00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:30,599 game against the Knicks late in his rookie season where he like really went against 379 00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:34,000 Carmelo Anthony, and that was the moment to me where it was like, 380 00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:37,400 Okay, like there's there's something here. I don't know what it is yet, 381 00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:44,640 but they're saying here that that something is not just the ability to compete, 382 00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:47,519 because keep in mind, his body was not ready to compete at that 383 00:26:47,559 --> 00:26:51,400 point. So it was the competitive fire, it was the lack of being 384 00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:55,000 intimidated. He One of my favorite anixots in the book is it might have 385 00:26:55,039 --> 00:26:59,079 been before that game or one of the preseason ones, but Janni says to 386 00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:03,680 Josh Appen him and the Buck's assistant coach, I'm gonna bust Carmelo Anthony's ass. 387 00:27:03,039 --> 00:27:07,799 You know. Oppenheimer's looking at him like, I love it. But 388 00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:11,480 that's Carmelo Anthony, you know, love the spirit, love that you're not 389 00:27:11,559 --> 00:27:14,440 going to back down. But Mellon was in his prime, you know, 390 00:27:14,839 --> 00:27:17,319 But that's be honest, Like he wanted to go after the big guys like 391 00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:22,359 I saw it against the Thunder with Kevin Durant and be Honest's willingness to guard 392 00:27:22,519 --> 00:27:27,519 him and just getting so amped before the game. And I think he's always 393 00:27:27,559 --> 00:27:34,319 had that drive. What morphed that something into something was the body having the 394 00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:37,440 body to match. Yeah, I totally agree, and I think that that 395 00:27:37,599 --> 00:27:42,720 competitive fire is still so obvious to this day now. The free throw shooting 396 00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:48,039 was a big narrative during these playoffs, because you know, all of a 397 00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:51,920 sudden, there's a significant weakness, a crack in the armor that could like 398 00:27:52,079 --> 00:27:55,119 totally derail the Bucks. And you know, I know that you were a 399 00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:59,359 little worried that that might be the persisting narrative coming out of the postseason. 400 00:28:00,599 --> 00:28:03,480 To me, at least, it ended up almost being more of a positive 401 00:28:03,599 --> 00:28:08,119 because, in contrast to Ben Simmons who shied away from contact and refused to 402 00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:11,279 shoot because he didn't want to be exposed to the free throw line, if 403 00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:15,319 Jannat airballed one, he made the next one, and then he attacked the 404 00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:18,640 basket on the next possession. And I think seeing that mentality on full display 405 00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:23,559 to me, it ended up making me like the guy even more totally, 406 00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:29,759 and that he was open about his struggles. You know that clip with PJ 407 00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:33,359 Tucker like I've been through the worst, I've air of balled free throws whatever, 408 00:28:33,559 --> 00:28:37,480 Like I'm not. He is not afraid of failure, and it him 409 00:28:37,519 --> 00:28:41,799 being vulnerable to not just obviously fail in front of millions of people who are 410 00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:47,680 counting down and making sesame Street the count memes on Twitter, but to talk 411 00:28:47,759 --> 00:28:52,440 about it and be so not ashamed. It just endeared him further to people. 412 00:28:52,559 --> 00:28:56,880 And this is why I think that Jannis is just so likable, because 413 00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:02,000 he is far from the person thinks he has it all down. Like we 414 00:29:02,119 --> 00:29:04,720 can relate to that, you know, like usually like you're not supposed to 415 00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:10,240 show any kind of weakness, You're supposed to be upset or ashamed at anything. 416 00:29:10,319 --> 00:29:12,400 And of course it upsets him he wants to make them. But I 417 00:29:12,559 --> 00:29:17,079 just you're right, Like I think there was a shift. There was a 418 00:29:17,119 --> 00:29:21,599 shift, a major shift between he's not in his bag to like, oh 419 00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:25,720 my god, one of the greats and we're okay with his failures because he 420 00:29:26,119 --> 00:29:29,440 is working on it. I don't know, the narrative just shifted so much, 421 00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:34,039 and yeah, it's it's unbelievable really, And I thought this was a 422 00:29:34,039 --> 00:29:37,319 funny thing. I don't know if I texted this to you or somebody else, 423 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:40,359 but I was like, what if he wins this game on free throws? 424 00:29:40,759 --> 00:29:45,440 Like what if he all looks it? Because he kept making them, 425 00:29:45,519 --> 00:29:48,960 and I was just you know, like, wouldn't that be something if he 426 00:29:49,119 --> 00:29:53,759 wins a game with free throws like that would just be like the ultimate wow, 427 00:29:55,279 --> 00:29:59,680 you know, So that was just so fun. What was your favorite 428 00:29:59,759 --> 00:30:03,200 ques from the postseason and why was it the one about ego? How's that 429 00:30:03,279 --> 00:30:07,880 for a leading question? Yeah, Okay, obsessed with this quote and I 430 00:30:08,079 --> 00:30:12,160 thought about it so much, especially in terms of ironically this book, and 431 00:30:12,519 --> 00:30:17,160 like, you know, I didn't realize like thinking so far in advance, 432 00:30:17,279 --> 00:30:21,519 like my anxiety about it and what will happen and all this is a form 433 00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:29,079 of like ego or it just he just reminded me to be president and just 434 00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:33,920 stay in the moment, and that is very hard to do. But I 435 00:30:33,119 --> 00:30:37,240 just kept watching. I think I'd watched that clip like one hundred times. 436 00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:41,079 It's just so it sounds so reasonable and so real and so honest. And 437 00:30:41,119 --> 00:30:44,799 when I think about I'm like, you know what, You're right, because 438 00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:48,759 I'm not somebody that like thinks about past success and it's like, oh yeah, 439 00:30:48,839 --> 00:30:52,200 that one article I did, Like you know, I'm perpetually like insecure 440 00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:57,039 about my work like every other writer. But but to stay in the moment 441 00:30:57,559 --> 00:31:00,440 is what I took from that, and I loved it so much. And 442 00:31:00,519 --> 00:31:03,160 I just keep thinking, like, God, he's only twenty six, Like 443 00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:07,160 I want to be honest to end up working like some kind of senator, 444 00:31:07,319 --> 00:31:12,000 like some ambassador like I just think he's so smart and can do so much 445 00:31:12,079 --> 00:31:15,599 with his life. I don't know if you remember the Obama quote that made 446 00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:19,400 the book where Obama and I think it was Chris Paul and Yannis We're on 447 00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:22,400 a panel a couple of years back, and Obama was like, you honest, 448 00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:26,319 like you should show more of yourself, like you you should show more. 449 00:31:26,839 --> 00:31:30,480 And I think he's doing that. I think this Playoffs was him showing 450 00:31:30,559 --> 00:31:34,559 more. We got a real glimpse into how he thinks, not just how 451 00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:37,480 he plays, how he thinks. I agree with that for sure, and 452 00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:41,880 I think there are so many portions in the book where you get unique insight 453 00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:48,359 into so many different sides of his personality because he is this serious, introspective, 454 00:31:48,079 --> 00:31:53,160 underage philosopher, and he is this goofball who makes dad jokes at the 455 00:31:53,279 --> 00:31:59,400 podium, which I fully respect, and he loves smoothies and he's not afraid 456 00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:01,279 to share it. You know, there are just so many different sides to 457 00:32:01,359 --> 00:32:06,200 his personality, and it just felt like throughout the book, you see him, 458 00:32:07,319 --> 00:32:10,359 I don't want to say becoming comfortable with himself, because I think even 459 00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:14,640 at an early age, it seems like he was comfortable with himself, but 460 00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:20,279 probably becoming more assured of himself and his personality. Yeah, exactly. Like 461 00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:23,039 I think people forget that as these guys are maturing as basketball players, they're 462 00:32:23,079 --> 00:32:28,039 maturing as human beings, and you look at your twenties to your thirties, 463 00:32:28,119 --> 00:32:32,240 that this is peak adulting, peak maturing, and he's looming in those ways. 464 00:32:34,359 --> 00:32:37,000 It's just that we don't always talk about that, you know. Like 465 00:32:37,279 --> 00:32:43,319 this morning I saw something about like Simone Biles had died during the Olympics, 466 00:32:43,359 --> 00:32:45,279 and I was like, dude, like, we have no idea what's going 467 00:32:45,319 --> 00:32:49,799 on with these people? Okay, Like this is why I always say bring 468 00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:52,200 humanity into it. We have no idea what she was battling, you know. 469 00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:55,640 And it's the same with Jannis. It's the same with all of them. 470 00:32:55,799 --> 00:33:00,200 Like there's just so much that goes beyond that they do on the court. 471 00:33:01,119 --> 00:33:06,480 I'm gonna deviate big time and go down on this tangent because you mentioned 472 00:33:06,519 --> 00:33:12,079 Simone Biles, and I would love to know if you were encouraged or discouraged 473 00:33:12,279 --> 00:33:16,359 by the reaction that we saw when she withdrew from these Olympic events. It's 474 00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:21,839 weird because you know, I follow people that are very similar to me, 475 00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:28,559 very progressive, very supportive, and empathetic and open, and saw this as 476 00:33:28,599 --> 00:33:31,960 a real amazing, courageous thing that she did. But then I saw, 477 00:33:32,599 --> 00:33:36,680 you know, obviously I paid attention to people who think differently than me, 478 00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:40,839 and I was totally disgusted by their coverage and so overall, I would just 479 00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:45,599 say I felt like there were more negative voices than positive when I step outside 480 00:33:45,599 --> 00:33:52,880 of my bubble, and I was just extremely discouraged, And I just I 481 00:33:52,079 --> 00:34:00,599 can't I can't understand how if Simone Biles is okay with down, you can't 482 00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:06,079 be okay with it, Like if she is, if she's cool with it, 483 00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:09,239 how others can't be cool with it, you know, Like it's her 484 00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:14,039 life, it's her, it's her situation, it's her. I mean, 485 00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:20,079 you know, I will never be an athlete of her magnitude, living her 486 00:34:20,199 --> 00:34:22,960 life, being in her shoes, But I absolutely know what it's like to 487 00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:28,199 feel so much things at once and need to take a step back and have 488 00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:30,400 not done what she did. That's the thing that I just kept thinking of, 489 00:34:30,599 --> 00:34:34,480 Like I wish I could have done what she did at some point in 490 00:34:34,559 --> 00:34:37,119 my life. But I didn't, and I think she's a real role model 491 00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:43,000 and she she was very inspiring. Of course, I was just also upset, 492 00:34:43,199 --> 00:34:46,639 like god, I really wish that I could write a profile on her. 493 00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:52,079 And you know Naomi oh, I knew, I knew, and I 494 00:34:52,559 --> 00:34:57,559 you know, I have been trying to profile Naomi Osaka speaking of for like 495 00:34:57,719 --> 00:35:04,039 two years now, and Carry Richardson as well with the Olympics, and I've 496 00:35:04,079 --> 00:35:08,199 been pursuing that story. And I want all of these stories because I just 497 00:35:08,519 --> 00:35:15,239 people are not not necessarily looking to tell like a story that listens to them 498 00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:20,280 and it's empathetic and it just wants to tell their story, not have a 499 00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:25,039 viewpoint. Yeah, we need more storytellers like that. So I'm gonna not 500 00:35:25,159 --> 00:35:30,480 give up on these profiles because I think when those women are ready to talk, 501 00:35:31,039 --> 00:35:34,840 yeah, I would love to do it, but of course there's something 502 00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:38,880 else. Yeah. And also if they never want to share their story or 503 00:35:39,039 --> 00:35:44,199 tell what they're going through, I want a hundred percent understand and respect that 504 00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:46,599 too. You know. I'm just like if I wasn't a journalist, I 505 00:35:46,639 --> 00:35:51,280 think I'd have the same exact point of view, like do you like I'm 506 00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:52,480 never going to know what it feels like to be you, how could I 507 00:35:52,559 --> 00:35:55,960 ever judge you? You know, all I wish for them is peace, 508 00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:01,079 you know, I can I cannot imagine. I cannot imagine what they're going 509 00:36:01,119 --> 00:36:05,360 through right now. Absolutely. Yeah. I think for me, I was 510 00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:09,320 both encouraged and discouraged with regards to Biles, where it felt like there was 511 00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:13,760 such an outpouring of support and then of course there were the dissenting voices, 512 00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:17,639 but it felt like a lot of those unsupportive voices were at least ones where 513 00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:22,199 we pretty much expected that reaction. Yeah, and I think that there were 514 00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:28,880 there were more people speaking up who I didn't necessarily expect to say anything, 515 00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:31,199 not because I wouldn't have expected them to say anything good, but just because 516 00:36:31,199 --> 00:36:36,440 I wouldn't have expected them to say anything in general. And right, nice 517 00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:39,960 to see like that the conversation is at least progressing to that point. There's 518 00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:45,000 still such a long way to go, specifically as it relates to mental health 519 00:36:45,079 --> 00:36:49,679 and athletes, but it just it feels like a continuation of the trend where 520 00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:54,440 at least we're talking about it. Yeah, it's so different, like you 521 00:36:54,519 --> 00:36:59,400 know, simone man while the swimmer like put a tweet yesterday or maybe a 522 00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:01,519 couple of days, or about how like, you know, my mental health 523 00:37:01,639 --> 00:37:05,519 is the most important thing, and it's not about winning. And I you 524 00:37:05,599 --> 00:37:07,719 know, people might look at her performance and say, wow, she didn't 525 00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:10,880 follow up her glory, but she gave it her all and she went through 526 00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:15,199 a lot just to get there. And that's why I that's honestly, that's 527 00:37:15,199 --> 00:37:20,039 why I love doing these stories and now this book, because it's just like, 528 00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:24,679 isn't that isn't that more interesting the things that it took to get a 529 00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:30,280 person to success rather than just like everything's amazing twenty points a game? Like 530 00:37:30,559 --> 00:37:37,360 personally, I'm just I think there's never been a greater hunger to know people's 531 00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:40,320 stories that we admire. Do you have any ideas for the next book? 532 00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:45,639 Yet? You know I do, and I don't be texted to you or 533 00:37:45,679 --> 00:37:51,440 not, but I will after this certainly if I haven't. But I am 534 00:37:51,519 --> 00:37:54,920 like really debating between like current or retired, because as you know, most 535 00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:58,679 books are about retired players, and I'm sure it would have been a hell 536 00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:04,519 of a lot easier doing book on somebody retired, But now I'm seeing the 537 00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:10,639 excitement about a player in real time and how maybe that's advantageous to write about 538 00:38:10,679 --> 00:38:15,039 a current person, and you know how it can more naturally from a story 539 00:38:15,119 --> 00:38:19,079 that I've already done. So I'm looking at stories that I've done on players 540 00:38:19,159 --> 00:38:22,280 that I've already profiled and thinking could I turn that into a book? But 541 00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:27,840 then I'm like, there's this one retired player that fascinates me, and maybe 542 00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:30,599 I should go with that. So I don't know, but I need to 543 00:38:30,679 --> 00:38:35,400 figure it out. But life is moving so fast I can't I can't stop 544 00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:38,119 and think, and I need to stop and think. Yeah, I want 545 00:38:38,159 --> 00:38:45,800 the secret details as soon as we've done here immediately with a lot of exclamations 546 00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:52,039 and emoji, stringent consciousness style ner and classic text message voice. I've gotten 547 00:38:52,079 --> 00:38:58,039 to know that voice. So at the risk of ruining my ability, at 548 00:38:58,079 --> 00:39:00,800 the risk of ruining my ability to get the secret details, I'm gonna put 549 00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:04,320 you on the spot here. And I know that you read a ton. 550 00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:08,519 I know that you digest a ton of podcasts and articles about writing itself, 551 00:39:09,119 --> 00:39:14,400 and I know that a lot of our listeners like to read great sports books. 552 00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:21,280 So in Mire and Fader's opinion, what are the quintessential sports sports related 553 00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:27,960 books? Oh my god, okay, Well, the Last Hero, which 554 00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:30,840 is the Handgaron book by Howard Bryant, It's over there. I would say 555 00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:39,159 Jeff Broman Showtime. I would say Jane Leeve's book on Sandy Kofax, Jack 556 00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:50,239 McCollum's Dream Team Jack McCollums seven Seconds are Less. Oh, Marcus Thompson Golden. 557 00:39:52,679 --> 00:39:58,320 This is not a book, but it's a collection of Gary Smith's best 558 00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:02,159 stories for Sports Illustrate. It's called Going Deep. Absolute must read. I 559 00:40:02,199 --> 00:40:07,960 think I've read it like three times. And concurrently, right Thompson's anthology, 560 00:40:08,039 --> 00:40:13,760 which is I think it's called These Dreams of Ours or something or what does 561 00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:16,320 I don't know, look up ry Thompson's Anthology. But also, Ry Thompson 562 00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:20,079 just wrote a book that is not sports and it is so good. I'm 563 00:40:20,119 --> 00:40:22,880 going to add it to this list called Pappy Land. I don't know if 564 00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:27,320 you know this, Adam. I don't drink at all, but ry Thompson 565 00:40:27,639 --> 00:40:34,199 made me. Hey, it's just us too amazing. Ry Thompson made me 566 00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:38,480 love a book about bourbon like it's literally a book about alcohol. And I 567 00:40:38,639 --> 00:40:43,320 never thought that I would devour a book like that, But right Thompson is 568 00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:46,840 so freaking good because it's never about the thing. It's never about the sport, 569 00:40:47,039 --> 00:40:52,480 you know, It's about family and love and heartbreak and failure and father 570 00:40:52,639 --> 00:40:58,559 and sons. So that's my list. If I forgot, oh my god, 571 00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:01,119 I'm telling you, like like Team Sober, you will enjoy that. 572 00:41:02,199 --> 00:41:07,760 I'm glad that you mentioned the Pearlman ones though, because I feel I know 573 00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:12,440 that you and he have talked on his podcast a number of times and interacted 574 00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:15,239 a bunch. But to me, like having read Showtime and the more recent 575 00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:22,360 book on the Lakers with the Shaq Kobe era, it really felt to me 576 00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:29,400 like that influence was everywhere in the honest because when I think about Jeff Perlman, 577 00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:34,199 and he and I have not interacted, but I always think about how 578 00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:38,400 he has one more interview and it shows up on every page because there's that 579 00:41:38,639 --> 00:41:44,199 one extra anecdote, There's that one extra layer of detail, and I couldn't 580 00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:49,440 help but see that in every single chapter of this book. I mean, 581 00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:52,159 wow, that makes me really happy to hear because Jeff is one of my 582 00:41:52,239 --> 00:41:57,119 best friends, he's my mentor. I've read every book he's ever written. 583 00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:01,800 I copied him essentially. That make the extra call. Like, you know, 584 00:42:02,239 --> 00:42:06,320 he always tells me that, like you can control how hard you work, 585 00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:08,679 there's always going to be a better writer, but there's don't let anyone 586 00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:13,079 out work you. You've got to get that extra gem and that anecdote and 587 00:42:13,119 --> 00:42:15,599 make the extra call. And it's not just a coffee, it's a moco 588 00:42:15,719 --> 00:42:20,760 with a drizzle of caramel and this and that. So every time I do 589 00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:24,159 that, it's Jeff. Every time I do a one word sentence or something 590 00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:29,239 weird, you know, grammatically or structurally, it's Jeff. The way Jeff 591 00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:32,320 can zoom in on a player and then zoom back out to the game and 592 00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:36,719 then zoom back into the situation, zoom back out, that's Jeff. Like 593 00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:42,360 everything I've learned really came from him. And you know, it's it's such 594 00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:47,400 an emotional moment. He's actually gonna be posting co hosting I guess a book 595 00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:52,880 event with me at a local books store in LA that I yeah, And 596 00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:58,480 I'm going to try not to cry when I go, because I actually went 597 00:42:58,559 --> 00:43:01,920 to that same bookstore to go to his event like three years ago or maybe 598 00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:06,920 two years for his USFL book, and I just remember being in the crowd 599 00:43:07,039 --> 00:43:09,039 and just you know, because I've been to several Jeff events, but that 600 00:43:09,199 --> 00:43:14,480 one was so cool because he like shouted me out in the crowd and was 601 00:43:14,599 --> 00:43:16,920 like, you know Mearens a writer for Bleacher Report, and now we're going 602 00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:22,280 to be on stage together and he's going to be asking me questions and that's 603 00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:25,119 like family and you know. So I think I'm gonna like try not to 604 00:43:25,159 --> 00:43:30,039 be a puddle of emotions. If you have the details available plug away, 605 00:43:30,239 --> 00:43:35,960 Oh my god. Yeah, well it's gonna be on the thirteenth Chevalier's Bookstore 606 00:43:36,239 --> 00:43:38,599 in Los Angeles. We're still finalizing the time and stuff, but yeah, 607 00:43:39,039 --> 00:43:45,599 I'm so excited for that. It's gonna I'm really just it's gonna be cool. 608 00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:46,760 I mean, as you should be. So I don't want to take 609 00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:51,119 up too much your day because I know that you're just on this constant tour 610 00:43:51,280 --> 00:43:55,199 of podcasts and radio and every single kind of appearance you can make. So 611 00:43:55,599 --> 00:44:00,440 my last question to you is going to be what are you most excited about 612 00:44:01,199 --> 00:44:05,280 for when the book comes out? Is it the feeling of relief that you're 613 00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:07,920 done. Is it for people to see a specific portion of it, just 614 00:44:07,039 --> 00:44:15,360 the feeling of completeness, wherever you want to go. You know, I'm 615 00:44:15,360 --> 00:44:21,320 really excited to celebrate with my family. You know. My parents told me 616 00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:25,159 that they that they're really proud of me, and that is just like so 617 00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:32,519 amazing to hear, you know. And I think we're just gonna have like 618 00:44:32,559 --> 00:44:39,079 a really nice dinner and I feel so grateful. And my mom definitely cried 619 00:44:39,159 --> 00:44:43,400 when she held the hardback in her hands for the first time a couple of 620 00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:47,039 weeks ago. And I think I'm just excited to like celebrate it with them. 621 00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:50,280 You know, they were there every step of the way. Like my 622 00:44:50,480 --> 00:44:52,679 parents were never like, oh my god, why do you want to be 623 00:44:52,719 --> 00:44:53,800 a sports tighter or even before that, why do you want to be a 624 00:44:53,960 --> 00:44:57,199 WBA player? You know, they were always like, yes, yes, 625 00:44:57,360 --> 00:45:00,679 how can we help you get to what you want? So it's gonna be 626 00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:07,360 like really surreal, I think. And I'm just as I said, I'm 627 00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:12,239 I'm feeling so many different emotions and it's so weird when people are It's awesome, 628 00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:14,920 but weird when people are tweeting the book, you know, it's like, 629 00:45:15,039 --> 00:45:19,000 oh my god, you spent your dollars on little all me and I 630 00:45:19,079 --> 00:45:22,639 know how much you've hated the self promotion stuff too. It's been so weird. 631 00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:28,559 It's been so weird. I feel so uncomfortable. So so I'm just 632 00:45:28,679 --> 00:45:32,239 really looking forward to just like a dinner with my parents and like celebrating with 633 00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:36,719 them. That's going to be so nice for sure. Well, I cannot 634 00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:39,920 recommend the book strongly enough again. Out on August tenth, be honest, 635 00:45:39,960 --> 00:45:44,639 The Improbable Rise of an NBA MVP by Mere and Fader. Of course, 636 00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:47,679 if you haven't pre ordered it already, do so. If you're not going 637 00:45:47,760 --> 00:45:51,840 to preorder it, just wait until it's out in a bookstore and go pick 638 00:45:51,880 --> 00:45:57,079 it up, because it will be worth your while. I was beyond thrilled 639 00:45:57,119 --> 00:46:01,480 to have what I feel was a very small part in very large part, 640 00:46:02,639 --> 00:46:07,960 large part. But I just I cannot recommend it strongly enough. So before 641 00:46:08,039 --> 00:46:13,199 you continue your your press tour here, thank you so much for taking the 642 00:46:13,239 --> 00:46:16,480 time to come on our show. Oh my god, anything for you, 643 00:46:16,639 --> 00:46:22,320 Adam, Thank you again for just being you so grateful man. This was 644 00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:24,119 fun. Hey, right back at you. Go ahead and follow Miran on 645 00:46:24,239 --> 00:46:28,880 Twitter at Miran Fader spelled like it sounds. You can follow me on Twitter 646 00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:32,360 at at FROMO zero nine, follow Hardwood Knox at Hardwood Knox, and NBA 647 00:46:32,440 --> 00:46:37,280 Math at NBA Underscore Math, and we'll leave you with a shout out to 648 00:46:37,360 --> 00:46:38,400 the one, the only Yannis