Hello, everyone, and welcome to the latest episode of Hardwood Knocks. This
is that I'm from. We'll here without my fantastic co host, Dan fa
Valley, but we are joined by a very special guest. So we're going
to jump right into that without any delayed introductions because we're joined by none other
than the Ringer's Mirror and Fader. How's it going today, Hi, it's
good. I'm so happy with you, with you all right back at you.
You know, we've texted so much and worked together on the book you
have coming out, so it's nice to get this face to face interaction and
get a chance to kind of debrief about the whole process. Well, I
was going to say, I need everyone to listen and understand that your podcast
host, Adam is a tremendous fact checker. He fact checked the whole book,
and I was so happy that you did this because you fact check my
work at Bleacher for years, and you know, I trusted you with this
book. It was the most important assignment of my life. And I'm so
filled that we were able to work together and now talk about it because you
did a tremendous job. So I'm very thankful. I appreciate it for sure,
But this is supposed to be gassing you up, not me. I
mean, I'll take it, but we're gonna have to. We're gonna set
the skills back in your balance here. But just before we dive into it,
the details about the book, Jannis The Improbable Rise of an Envy of
an NBA MVP coming out on August tenth, Right, yes, that's less
than a week from today. So how are we feeling. We're feeling antious,
We're feeling excited, nervous, scared, happy, weird, tired,
energized, all the feelings, all the feelings. It's basically like insert adjective
here. One minute, I'm just like, Okay, it's gonna be fine.
I got this. The next minute, I'm like, I'm so nervous
what if they don't like it? And the next minute I'm like, Okay,
it's gonna be great. I'm excited, this is so cool. Next
minute, I'm nervous again. So I've been like heavily caffeinated and just just
trying to stay awake. Yeah, I mean I get the nerves. I
totally do, just because it's such a big project. But having read everything
in such detail and having seen the reaction with various reviews and the excerpt that
you posted on The Ringer, and even having like my wife read the introduction
and she's not a basketball fan and she was totally into it and wants to
read the whole book now, because it really always felt to me more like
a human interest story that happened to be about a basketball player than a pure
basketball book, which I know was was your intention too, exactly. Like
I think it's funny because as I was doing the book, I was like,
wait, I need to add more basketball, Like wait, I forgot
this playoff series. Wait, we gotta add stuff about the jumper. You
know, there's so much human stuff that you know it really for me,
I really worked hard to create a balance because I want people that know nothing
about basketball to dig this book, and I want people that are basketball nerds
to have what they want, and they're like new and information about Yannis.
So trying to have that balance was important, and especially as you know,
there was so much that happened in his childhood, it was a real struggle
to not begin America on page three hundred. But I can't be releasing like
Barack Obama length, you know, books in two volumes, so I have
to I had to scale it back. Yeah, and I really felt like
the most compelling portions were the pre America sections, you know, from a
fact checking perspective, I think the most difficult part of it was the political
stuff within Greece, specifically like talking about the Golden Dawn far right political party
where you know, I don't think I anticipated when we first talked that I
was going to be watching like two hour documentaries on Greek political parties as part
of the fact checking process. So I'm curious both what was most compelling to
you before he arrived in America and what the toughest part was to write about.
Yeah, you know, I hadn't heard of Golden Dawn before I embarked
on this. I don't know about you, but that it's just something that
I didn't learn about it. I know you have a classics background, so
you were more familiar with, you know, Greece, but I really wasn't,
you know, And I think for me it's just that it was so
much uncharted territory. I feel like people really don't know anything about that time
period in Jannie's life except sold trink gets by the street, and for me,
I'm like, okay, but which street where? What did they sell?
How much should they make? What do they do when they didn't have
food? Like, I just had a thousand questions, And so for me,
it was so important to not just include the challenges, but also moments
of joy and levity and laughter and love and try to show the most complete
picture possible. I think, you know, some people might look at the
book and say, wow, you know there's two pages about this Nazi group,
Golden Dawn that was patrolling the neighborhood. But it's like, you have
to put that because Jannis and his family don't exist in a vacuum. They
are living in a culture that treats them differently because as they are black in
a white country, and that's important to have. So I think for me,
I was like, how can I explore identity without making it feel like
a dense history book? And I would imagine that that was an even more
difficult challenge because of the ongoing coronavirus pandemic. I know that this book for
listeners who aren't aware, and I know that you've talked about this in a
number of places, was completed in a year, which is a lot less
time than you typically receive for a book, particularly your first book, and
you aren't able to travel to Greece because of the pandemic, which meant that
you're relying on, you know, translators and secondhand accounts of these places.
So was that process more difficult less difficult than you imagined? And do you
think the book gained something just from having to have those perspectives included? It
was way more difficult. I know, you can probably look through your email
right now and search my name and find like a thousand photos and videos.
Here's a random street in Cepolia. I just want you to know that this
description is based off of this, and you know it was a bunch of
that, right, And I didn't. I mean, I knew it was
going to be hard. I mean, I signed a book deal mid March
twenty twenty, and you know, I'd panicked that first, because that's just
a normal reaction for a journalist that has this giant assignment in the most awful
of circumstances with virtual reporting. But then as I was starting to like find
my groove in doing zoom interviews and stuff like that, I was like,
well, this is the situation, and I don't have time to panic,
and I don't have time to freak out, like I have to just get
it done. And I think it made me a better reporter because I could
ask, you know, people living in Cepolia and living in Athens, just
like when you look outside your door, what do you see? Paint the
picture for me because I can't be there, And I think it pushed me
to be even more relentless than I normally would about getting those details, as
I wanted people to open these pages and you know, hear the sounds of
Spolia, smell the streets, feel like they're walking with the honest and that
just came from two hundred and twenty one interviews. So it was really really
hard. And the time element was tough too, because you know, when
we used to do stuff that leature together. My process was pretty simple in
the sense of I would do all my reporting, then I would write it.
But this I had twenty thousand words a month due to my publisher,
and so I had to it's a lot of words. I had to a
lot of words. I had to report and write and report and write all
at once. So I was completely out of my element. That's just not
how I work, and it was hard to know like what should go in
each chapter because I don't I haven't reported the whole thing out yet, so
I don't really know like what's going to go away. So I think the
whole time I was just like just trying to be kind to myself and just
say, you know what, this is a new process. We're going to
try our best. Did you have any trepidation when accepting the contract in the
first place because you didn't know where the story was going to go? And
I'll preface that by saying, and this is my time to sing your praises.
You know, even before we started working together, I told people that
I thought you were as good as it gets in this industry because of your
ability to parse out the emotional core of a story and build on that.
You know, I think that's true for basically everything you wrote at Bleacher Report,
at the Ringer, where there's a clear, like emotional portion of the
story that resonates and without knowing where exactly was it was going to go.
Did that make it more difficult to take on the project in the first place.
Yeah, thank you for saying that. It definitely did. I was
really just like, second guessing myself like how because I just don't You're going
in is something blind? Right, Like, Yes, I spent the day
with the Honest and his family. Yes, I talked to the mom,
which is something that people don't do. Yes, I know spend time with
the Honest and was observing how they interact. But essentially it was a blank
canvas, not knowing where it would go. And sometimes I have a sense
of where things are going with my stories because I'm not working on something for
a year, you know, And it's a weird feeling to be like,
all right, I have a year go and not really know which thread do
you pull first. It's just such a gargantuan task. It's so overwhelming.
So what helped me especially focus on the emotional aspect, like you're saying,
is to shrink it to like fifteen assignments. I started looking at it like,
this is fifteen long forms. Now that might seem like, oh my
god, that's a lot, but that's a whole lot better mentally for me
than one hundred and twenty thousand words. So I was able to get really
down to the nitty gritty and just treat each chapter like it was a br
story. Basically, yeah, fair enough. And I think that you know,
you said that you didn't really know where it was going at first,
and I think that's true even with the end, because as you're writing this,
like you don't know, Isn't going to sign the Supermac's extension to stay
in Milwaukee? Is he going to depart? So you know that's that's kind
of where the book finishes, which makes it even more fascinating that the timing
worked out so that this is being released in the aftermath of the Bucks winning
a title. So I was kind of hoping that you could just take our
listeners through your reactions to the Buck's journey through the playoffs, you know,
having texted with you throughout it, it was like everything there was a close
game, Like I was. I was watching the second to last game with
the Nets, which I believe is the one where Kevin Durant's foot was on
the line. Just as I was watching that with some friends in a restaurant.
We had like our owns out and we were watching it there and I'm
like getting the text from me like, oh my goodness, Like I can't
believe they need to win this game. My text to you can be summed
up as a thousand trillion exclamation points or WTF or the head splooge emoji that's
exploding, or like the shocked face. Yeah. I was an emotional wreck
throughout this playoffs. I was living and dying with the books. It's just
I'm not used to feeling these things. You know, we're not supposed to
cheer in the press box. But definitely did not know where was going.
And the thing is is that a lot of people are like, how did
you know that the book was going to come out at this point? And
I'm like, no, I didn't. There's just I just got lucky,
you know. I mean when I did this story on Jannis and Alex for
a bleacher, Jannis hadn't even won his first MVP, Like I just again,
it's just serendipity, Like I didn't even think I was going to talk
to Jannis. I came to profile Alex because you know what, br we
do a lot of who's next, who's the next big prospect, and then
Yannis just happens to be there and then we just organically spend the day together.
So that was lucky. And then there was this fear for me,
like I have no idea how the book is going to end, because I
know I wanted to end on whether he stays or goes. But if it's
coming out in August twenty twenty one, which we thought was like peak free
agency right now, and we thought he'd still be making his decision, I
don't know how to end it. So I essentially was like, I'm gonna
just worry about that. The schedule my worry for another point, and I'm
going to do that last. And then in December of twenty twenty he decides
to stay. And the irony is that I announced that I was writing this
book about fifteen seconds before Jannis decided he was staying, and everyone thought that
I knew his decision and it was complete luck. Once again, I had
no idea, and then for them to go on this title run would be
like the final moment of serendipity. So I think what this teaches me is
that just stay open. Sometimes it can be exhilarating when you don't know and
incredibly scary, but you can't control what you can't control. And you know,
I know there is going to be an epilog for the paperback edition,
so I'll finally be able to update that, but I still think it ends
on a note that makes sense even if it doesn't include the title run.
I totally agree with you, and I thoroughly enjoyed that playoff run just for
so many different reasons. It's like every round there was this new like reason
for me to be totally fine with either side. So like the conference finals,
like I'm wearing an Atlanta Hawks hat as we speak, so it's like,
okay, if my favorite team wins, like, so be it.
If the team that I now have this personal connection two wins. Rate then
we get to the finals, and Chris Paul is one of my all time
favorite players, and you know, I've long hated that that narrative that he
succumbs to the moment in the playoffs, so I was like, okay,
either he's going to get a ring or yannas it's going to get a ring
again, Like I'm cool with either one happening. So it was just like
one great moment after another. From my end, It's so funny. I
know you and I like we really because you put in so much work on
this, right, Like it's personal, like when you pour over material like
that for so long, it's you cannot help but feel tied to it,
you know, and like I'm curious for you, like when you'd watch the
honest, did you also like keep thinking of Lints in his life because I
know that when I watched him in those playoffs, like I just I would
just think of like, oh remember that one time when he was fourteen,
and it's like I can't see him the same. You see him sleeping on
the mat in the gym and Cepolia, you see him traveling and hearing insults
from local fans, and then you know the the early stage interviews that he
was giving in the broken English and everything like it was just one memory flooding
back after another one. So yeah, I mean it was great, and
I felt like I had a particular emotional connection to the book and to him,
just because of the stage that I was at in my professional career where
I was still at Bleacher Report at the time, working as a quality editor,
but I was seriously considering leaving the sports writing industry, and it just
kind of burnt me out a little bit. I was ready to pursue something
new, you know. I I have a two and a half year old
son at home, so it just felt like it was time to look elsewhere
because I'd kind of lost that passion for the sports industry, which people who
have known me since I was a kid would find a hilarious statement. And
then like working on this and just realizing how much I enjoy this type of
content when it's done so well as the book is. It totally reinvigorated me
and pushed me to move on to the job that I'm at now at sportscasting.
So it had such a personal connection for me that it was it was
I don't think I've ever rooted against the Hawks in my life, but I
was strongly towards the Milwaukee side during that series. And I hope some of
my friends are not less into this part now, Oh Adam, Like this
makes me emotional because you know, like you are so awesome, you know,
like I remember just being at br and I just see you in the
margins of the Google doc and it's like, okay, good, like Adams
on the dock, Its gonna be okay, you know, And it was
the same way. Yeah, And like you just you did such an amazing
job with this book and the I loved how you would write in the comments
because you have to get classics background, you would give additional information, and
you were like the perfect person for this, and I'm sure others out there
would probably love to have you fact check them, because you should anyone,
any any book people listening higher Adam full endorsement here on this is not I'm
in there. I'm embarrassing him, and I'm okay with it because I want
people to know, you know, I really I don't know if we've ever
talked about this, but I really just hate this idea of like the self
made writer and like, oh my god, I am so good. You
know, it's just more hours in don't accept pay, Like yeah, yeah,
yeah, I mean, if you're privileged enough to go that route,
yeah, it's stupid hustle culture. And it also like ignores all the people
that helped you and like, you know, yes, I wrote Jannis,
but you fact checked the frick out of it and it wouldn't have been possible
without you, and like writing is a collaborative, communal activity, and you
know, I'm happy to be at The Ringer obviously, but yeah, I
miss like our team at br And and just how collaborative we were. So
it was just it was so cool to reconnect with you for this. It
was so cool, absolutely, and I want to do it again on whatever
the next book. Yeah, we got to find a new topic. So
speaking of the future, though, I feel like you are one of the
most uniquely qualified people to answer this question. Oh my god, Jannis is
now a two time MVP, he's an he's an NBA champion, he's a
Finals MVP. He's achieved basically every goal that can be achieved at this stage
of an NBA career. So what's going to motivate him moving forward? Honestly,
I think that he is so relentless he will never be satisfied on the
court ever, in any way possible. But I think that I'm I think
his impact is beyond basketball now. I think that he now has matured into
this person that is captivating a global audience, and I think I hope he
chooses to use his platform to talk more openly about issues outside of basketball and
social issues and racial issues, and I think exploring more of his Nigerian identity
is something that a lot of people you know, from Legos and other areas
would love from him. And I think that I think we're just going to
see somebody blossoming into their own off the court too, because we saw it
on the work. But now he knows the power that his words have in
his following, and I just think he is growing more and more comfortable with
his voice, and as you know, like that's a journey in the book
as well, going from somebody that doesn't want to open their mouth at all
to being a little more hesitant to speaking up more to show in a little
bit more of himself. And I just think he's only twenty six years old,
so you know, I think part of the journey now is going to
be the voice. Cut me off here if I'm revealing too many details from
the as of now unreleased book, But one of the portions that really stood
out to me was the fact that you included the criticism from back home for
him where as he's developing this voice and starting to speak out about, you
know, the Black Lives Matter protests, because those events unfolded in such close
proximity to where the Bucks play that there was criticism from Greece and these Greek
countrymen because he has not necessarily used that voice to speak about the racial issues
back at home. So yeah, exactly is that the next step, you
think, yeah, I do, and I think that it was really important
for me to interview I guess for context before I answer that it was really
important for me to interview other black Greek players that either knew him growing up,
that were friends with him, or just other Black Greek people living in
Athens, because I wanted to know what their experiences were like, to kind
of shed light on what Janniss was and is now. And you know,
Janice was able to ascend in ways that these people were not because they didn't
get their citizenship fast tracked the way Jannis is was. And showing their stories
is also kind of like a striking contrast to Jannis in the sense of had
Yannis not made the NBA, likely his future would have ended up perhaps like
these people if he didn't get a shot playing overseas or anything like that.
So it is really important to show that it is not this like American dream,
work hard and you will achieve everything. Life is a meritocracy, like
a lot of luck was involved, and yes, he worked hard once he
got the opportunity, but all these other black breaks also worked hard, they
just didn't get the chance to ascend. And the way that he did,
so I thought that was just super important to have in there, and then
to have those players that knew him growing up that are also children of you
know, Nigerian parents, to say like, look, be honest, like
we're suffering over here, like we want you to speak up more about race.
And he is. He definitely is. But I think people back home
would like to see more of it. And I think they said it in
the book in such a respectful way that it's like, look, I would
never say anything bad about yannest I love you, honest. But he doesn't
need to be a Colin Kaepernick. He doesn't need to be a Muhammad Ali.
But I think he recognizes he has this platform and need to speak up,
and you know, we'd want to see it. I think one of
my favorite quotes in the book comes from that section. And that guy who
just said that quote. His name is et Tenosa ever Banagi, and he
played on Paneth and iQOS his youth system, and he and Jannis were friends
growing up and played against each other. And I asked Eos, like,
what do you want for the next generation of black migrants? Right? Like
we're thinking about beyond the honest now, we're thinking about like not even just
who's going to be the next Black Greek NBA player, We're just thinking about
black Greek people in Athens. And he said I want them to be able
to breathe and to dream, and that just hit me so much, you
know, And so yeah, it was just really important to have broader context
in the book. Yeah, and I think that that phrase just resonates even
more powerfully because I don't know if it was intended to refer to the I
can't breathe slogan, right, I just can't hear that without thinking about it.
In the connection, I was totally thinking that absolutely. Yeah, I
mean, just having read it, it wouldn't surprise me at all if you
know, he makes serious endeavors down that road, because it seems like so
much of his motivation too, is making sure that his younger brothers, Alex
in particular, do not have the same experiences that he did. You know,
that's that's clear from the first couple of pages, right. Yeah.
One of my favorite y honest quotes from our interview was like, it's easy
to be motivated when you have everything. I didn't have a choice, and
so you know, for Yannest, he's just like keenly aware of the differences.
You know, my baby brother's got a private school education. I you
know, when selling on beaches for two weeks at a time away from school.
So he will never let his brothers get complacent, Like he will never
let them think that they're great or they don't need to work anymore. Like
think about it, Yannis has the two hundred and twenty eight million dollars deal,
and he's still acting like the guy about to get cut that pair of
sneakers right, still hasn't bought a pair of sneakers nice to two. I
know I can get the matter. I think that these twenty sixteen to seventeen
first time we bought first class seats, Like there's just stuck in my head,
you know. You know, also stuck in my head is how close
my Hawks were to getting him, Like that was, Oh my god.
I enjoyed. I enjoyed every part of the book except for that one.
And I think, like I told you while I was working through that,
like I don't want to do this part, like this is two pages now.
I know there needs to be an Atlanta Hawks trigger warning on the book
because there are several moments that are just a little spicy and too much to
handle. Fortunately, I think that Atlanta sports fans are fairly the disappointment.
But whether it's the Falcons, the Georgia Bulldogs, the Hawks, like we're
equipped to handle that at least. Okay, okay, no warning needed.
But yes, I really enjoyed reporting that because, like like I said at
the beginning, like there was a little hesitancy for me, not hesitancy,
but like a little worry, like what if I don't have enough basketball stuff,
you know, because I just love the I just naturally gravitate towards the
human. Atlanta gave me the chance to get the basketball breaking stuff that people
who are obsessed with basketball would appreciate, like secret meetings in Italy and being
in a shoddy basement and getting the staffers notes from the Hawks. And you
know, Danny Ferry, the Hawks dam at the time, took him like
months to talk to me. And then he says at the end, we
got through this without me crying. That's how emotional it is for him to
have lost on you, honest. And I can imagine Hawks fans a felt
the same way of watching him. Yeah, and the basketball part of his
story is so interesting too, you know it is I was doing NBA draft
grades for Bleacher Report at the time, since I was still in the NBA
writing game there, and it was a mad scramble to figure out, like
who this guy is enough to like absolutely write a grade because he wasn't really
on our radar and wasn't really on team's radar except for a couple of organizations.
So there was you know, we were figuring out if it was Adetta
Kumbo or Antona Kumbo, and you know, we went with the Nigerian name
back then, and I remember writing that, you know, it seemed like
he was at least a few years away from being a legitimate NBA player,
which still gets called out on Twitter because there are old screenshots and it's like
that wasn't actually that wrong, Like it took him that Adam Live. It
took him a while to find his niche I remember there was there was one
game against the Knicks late in his rookie season where he like really went against
Carmelo Anthony, and that was the moment to me where it was like,
Okay, like there's there's something here. I don't know what it is yet,
but they're saying here that that something is not just the ability to compete,
because keep in mind, his body was not ready to compete at that
point. So it was the competitive fire, it was the lack of being
intimidated. He One of my favorite anixots in the book is it might have
been before that game or one of the preseason ones, but Janni says to
Josh Appen him and the Buck's assistant coach, I'm gonna bust Carmelo Anthony's ass.
You know. Oppenheimer's looking at him like, I love it. But
that's Carmelo Anthony, you know, love the spirit, love that you're not
going to back down. But Mellon was in his prime, you know,
But that's be honest, Like he wanted to go after the big guys like
I saw it against the Thunder with Kevin Durant and be Honest's willingness to guard
him and just getting so amped before the game. And I think he's always
had that drive. What morphed that something into something was the body having the
body to match. Yeah, I totally agree, and I think that that
competitive fire is still so obvious to this day now. The free throw shooting
was a big narrative during these playoffs, because you know, all of a
sudden, there's a significant weakness, a crack in the armor that could like
totally derail the Bucks. And you know, I know that you were a
little worried that that might be the persisting narrative coming out of the postseason.
To me, at least, it ended up almost being more of a positive
because, in contrast to Ben Simmons who shied away from contact and refused to
shoot because he didn't want to be exposed to the free throw line, if
Jannat airballed one, he made the next one, and then he attacked the
basket on the next possession. And I think seeing that mentality on full display
to me, it ended up making me like the guy even more totally,
and that he was open about his struggles. You know that clip with PJ
Tucker like I've been through the worst, I've air of balled free throws whatever,
Like I'm not. He is not afraid of failure, and it him
being vulnerable to not just obviously fail in front of millions of people who are
counting down and making sesame Street the count memes on Twitter, but to talk
about it and be so not ashamed. It just endeared him further to people.
And this is why I think that Jannis is just so likable, because
he is far from the person thinks he has it all down. Like we
can relate to that, you know, like usually like you're not supposed to
show any kind of weakness, You're supposed to be upset or ashamed at anything.
And of course it upsets him he wants to make them. But I
just you're right, Like I think there was a shift. There was a
shift, a major shift between he's not in his bag to like, oh
my god, one of the greats and we're okay with his failures because he
is working on it. I don't know, the narrative just shifted so much,
and yeah, it's it's unbelievable really, And I thought this was a
funny thing. I don't know if I texted this to you or somebody else,
but I was like, what if he wins this game on free throws?
Like what if he all looks it? Because he kept making them,
and I was just you know, like, wouldn't that be something if he
wins a game with free throws like that would just be like the ultimate wow,
you know, So that was just so fun. What was your favorite
ques from the postseason and why was it the one about ego? How's that
for a leading question? Yeah, Okay, obsessed with this quote and I
thought about it so much, especially in terms of ironically this book, and
like, you know, I didn't realize like thinking so far in advance,
like my anxiety about it and what will happen and all this is a form
of like ego or it just he just reminded me to be president and just
stay in the moment, and that is very hard to do. But I
just kept watching. I think I'd watched that clip like one hundred times.
It's just so it sounds so reasonable and so real and so honest. And
when I think about I'm like, you know what, You're right, because
I'm not somebody that like thinks about past success and it's like, oh yeah,
that one article I did, Like you know, I'm perpetually like insecure
about my work like every other writer. But but to stay in the moment
is what I took from that, and I loved it so much. And
I just keep thinking, like, God, he's only twenty six, Like
I want to be honest to end up working like some kind of senator,
like some ambassador like I just think he's so smart and can do so much
with his life. I don't know if you remember the Obama quote that made
the book where Obama and I think it was Chris Paul and Yannis We're on
a panel a couple of years back, and Obama was like, you honest,
like you should show more of yourself, like you you should show more.
And I think he's doing that. I think this Playoffs was him showing
more. We got a real glimpse into how he thinks, not just how
he plays, how he thinks. I agree with that for sure, and
I think there are so many portions in the book where you get unique insight
into so many different sides of his personality because he is this serious, introspective,
underage philosopher, and he is this goofball who makes dad jokes at the
podium, which I fully respect, and he loves smoothies and he's not afraid
to share it. You know, there are just so many different sides to
his personality, and it just felt like throughout the book, you see him,
I don't want to say becoming comfortable with himself, because I think even
at an early age, it seems like he was comfortable with himself, but
probably becoming more assured of himself and his personality. Yeah, exactly. Like
I think people forget that as these guys are maturing as basketball players, they're
maturing as human beings, and you look at your twenties to your thirties,
that this is peak adulting, peak maturing, and he's looming in those ways.
It's just that we don't always talk about that, you know. Like
this morning I saw something about like Simone Biles had died during the Olympics,
and I was like, dude, like, we have no idea what's going
on with these people? Okay, Like this is why I always say bring
humanity into it. We have no idea what she was battling, you know.
And it's the same with Jannis. It's the same with all of them.
Like there's just so much that goes beyond that they do on the court.
I'm gonna deviate big time and go down on this tangent because you mentioned
Simone Biles, and I would love to know if you were encouraged or discouraged
by the reaction that we saw when she withdrew from these Olympic events. It's
weird because you know, I follow people that are very similar to me,
very progressive, very supportive, and empathetic and open, and saw this as
a real amazing, courageous thing that she did. But then I saw,
you know, obviously I paid attention to people who think differently than me,
and I was totally disgusted by their coverage and so overall, I would just
say I felt like there were more negative voices than positive when I step outside
of my bubble, and I was just extremely discouraged, And I just I
can't I can't understand how if Simone Biles is okay with down, you can't
be okay with it, Like if she is, if she's cool with it,
how others can't be cool with it, you know, Like it's her
life, it's her, it's her situation, it's her. I mean,
you know, I will never be an athlete of her magnitude, living her
life, being in her shoes, But I absolutely know what it's like to
feel so much things at once and need to take a step back and have
not done what she did. That's the thing that I just kept thinking of,
Like I wish I could have done what she did at some point in
my life. But I didn't, and I think she's a real role model
and she she was very inspiring. Of course, I was just also upset,
like god, I really wish that I could write a profile on her.
And you know Naomi oh, I knew, I knew, and I
you know, I have been trying to profile Naomi Osaka speaking of for like
two years now, and Carry Richardson as well with the Olympics, and I've
been pursuing that story. And I want all of these stories because I just
people are not not necessarily looking to tell like a story that listens to them
and it's empathetic and it just wants to tell their story, not have a
viewpoint. Yeah, we need more storytellers like that. So I'm gonna not
give up on these profiles because I think when those women are ready to talk,
yeah, I would love to do it, but of course there's something
else. Yeah. And also if they never want to share their story or
tell what they're going through, I want a hundred percent understand and respect that
too. You know. I'm just like if I wasn't a journalist, I
think I'd have the same exact point of view, like do you like I'm
never going to know what it feels like to be you, how could I
ever judge you? You know, all I wish for them is peace,
you know, I can I cannot imagine. I cannot imagine what they're going
through right now. Absolutely. Yeah. I think for me, I was
both encouraged and discouraged with regards to Biles, where it felt like there was
such an outpouring of support and then of course there were the dissenting voices,
but it felt like a lot of those unsupportive voices were at least ones where
we pretty much expected that reaction. Yeah, and I think that there were
there were more people speaking up who I didn't necessarily expect to say anything,
not because I wouldn't have expected them to say anything good, but just because
I wouldn't have expected them to say anything in general. And right, nice
to see like that the conversation is at least progressing to that point. There's
still such a long way to go, specifically as it relates to mental health
and athletes, but it just it feels like a continuation of the trend where
at least we're talking about it. Yeah, it's so different, like you
know, simone man while the swimmer like put a tweet yesterday or maybe a
couple of days, or about how like, you know, my mental health
is the most important thing, and it's not about winning. And I you
know, people might look at her performance and say, wow, she didn't
follow up her glory, but she gave it her all and she went through
a lot just to get there. And that's why I that's honestly, that's
why I love doing these stories and now this book, because it's just like,
isn't that isn't that more interesting the things that it took to get a
person to success rather than just like everything's amazing twenty points a game? Like
personally, I'm just I think there's never been a greater hunger to know people's
stories that we admire. Do you have any ideas for the next book?
Yet? You know I do, and I don't be texted to you or
not, but I will after this certainly if I haven't. But I am
like really debating between like current or retired, because as you know, most
books are about retired players, and I'm sure it would have been a hell
of a lot easier doing book on somebody retired, But now I'm seeing the
excitement about a player in real time and how maybe that's advantageous to write about
a current person, and you know how it can more naturally from a story
that I've already done. So I'm looking at stories that I've done on players
that I've already profiled and thinking could I turn that into a book? But
then I'm like, there's this one retired player that fascinates me, and maybe
I should go with that. So I don't know, but I need to
figure it out. But life is moving so fast I can't I can't stop
and think, and I need to stop and think. Yeah, I want
the secret details as soon as we've done here immediately with a lot of exclamations
and emoji, stringent consciousness style ner and classic text message voice. I've gotten
to know that voice. So at the risk of ruining my ability, at
the risk of ruining my ability to get the secret details, I'm gonna put
you on the spot here. And I know that you read a ton.
I know that you digest a ton of podcasts and articles about writing itself,
and I know that a lot of our listeners like to read great sports books.
So in Mire and Fader's opinion, what are the quintessential sports sports related
books? Oh my god, okay, Well, the Last Hero, which
is the Handgaron book by Howard Bryant, It's over there. I would say
Jeff Broman Showtime. I would say Jane Leeve's book on Sandy Kofax, Jack
McCollum's Dream Team Jack McCollums seven Seconds are Less. Oh, Marcus Thompson Golden.
This is not a book, but it's a collection of Gary Smith's best
stories for Sports Illustrate. It's called Going Deep. Absolute must read. I
think I've read it like three times. And concurrently, right Thompson's anthology,
which is I think it's called These Dreams of Ours or something or what does
I don't know, look up ry Thompson's Anthology. But also, Ry Thompson
just wrote a book that is not sports and it is so good. I'm
going to add it to this list called Pappy Land. I don't know if
you know this, Adam. I don't drink at all, but ry Thompson
made me. Hey, it's just us too amazing. Ry Thompson made me
love a book about bourbon like it's literally a book about alcohol. And I
never thought that I would devour a book like that, But right Thompson is
so freaking good because it's never about the thing. It's never about the sport,
you know, It's about family and love and heartbreak and failure and father
and sons. So that's my list. If I forgot, oh my god,
I'm telling you, like like Team Sober, you will enjoy that.
I'm glad that you mentioned the Pearlman ones though, because I feel I know
that you and he have talked on his podcast a number of times and interacted
a bunch. But to me, like having read Showtime and the more recent
book on the Lakers with the Shaq Kobe era, it really felt to me
like that influence was everywhere in the honest because when I think about Jeff Perlman,
and he and I have not interacted, but I always think about how
he has one more interview and it shows up on every page because there's that
one extra anecdote, There's that one extra layer of detail, and I couldn't
help but see that in every single chapter of this book. I mean,
wow, that makes me really happy to hear because Jeff is one of my
best friends, he's my mentor. I've read every book he's ever written.
I copied him essentially. That make the extra call. Like, you know,
he always tells me that, like you can control how hard you work,
there's always going to be a better writer, but there's don't let anyone
out work you. You've got to get that extra gem and that anecdote and
make the extra call. And it's not just a coffee, it's a moco
with a drizzle of caramel and this and that. So every time I do
that, it's Jeff. Every time I do a one word sentence or something
weird, you know, grammatically or structurally, it's Jeff. The way Jeff
can zoom in on a player and then zoom back out to the game and
then zoom back into the situation, zoom back out, that's Jeff. Like
everything I've learned really came from him. And you know, it's it's such
an emotional moment. He's actually gonna be posting co hosting I guess a book
event with me at a local books store in LA that I yeah, And
I'm going to try not to cry when I go, because I actually went
to that same bookstore to go to his event like three years ago or maybe
two years for his USFL book, and I just remember being in the crowd
and just you know, because I've been to several Jeff events, but that
one was so cool because he like shouted me out in the crowd and was
like, you know Mearens a writer for Bleacher Report, and now we're going
to be on stage together and he's going to be asking me questions and that's
like family and you know. So I think I'm gonna like try not to
be a puddle of emotions. If you have the details available plug away,
Oh my god. Yeah, well it's gonna be on the thirteenth Chevalier's Bookstore
in Los Angeles. We're still finalizing the time and stuff, but yeah,
I'm so excited for that. It's gonna I'm really just it's gonna be cool.
I mean, as you should be. So I don't want to take
up too much your day because I know that you're just on this constant tour
of podcasts and radio and every single kind of appearance you can make. So
my last question to you is going to be what are you most excited about
for when the book comes out? Is it the feeling of relief that you're
done. Is it for people to see a specific portion of it, just
the feeling of completeness, wherever you want to go. You know, I'm
really excited to celebrate with my family. You know. My parents told me
that they that they're really proud of me, and that is just like so
amazing to hear, you know. And I think we're just gonna have like
a really nice dinner and I feel so grateful. And my mom definitely cried
when she held the hardback in her hands for the first time a couple of
weeks ago. And I think I'm just excited to like celebrate it with them.
You know, they were there every step of the way. Like my
parents were never like, oh my god, why do you want to be
a sports tighter or even before that, why do you want to be a
WBA player? You know, they were always like, yes, yes,
how can we help you get to what you want? So it's gonna be
like really surreal, I think. And I'm just as I said, I'm
I'm feeling so many different emotions and it's so weird when people are It's awesome,
but weird when people are tweeting the book, you know, it's like,
oh my god, you spent your dollars on little all me and I
know how much you've hated the self promotion stuff too. It's been so weird.
It's been so weird. I feel so uncomfortable. So so I'm just
really looking forward to just like a dinner with my parents and like celebrating with
them. That's going to be so nice for sure. Well, I cannot
recommend the book strongly enough again. Out on August tenth, be honest,
The Improbable Rise of an NBA MVP by Mere and Fader. Of course,
if you haven't pre ordered it already, do so. If you're not going
to preorder it, just wait until it's out in a bookstore and go pick
it up, because it will be worth your while. I was beyond thrilled
to have what I feel was a very small part in very large part,
large part. But I just I cannot recommend it strongly enough. So before
you continue your your press tour here, thank you so much for taking the
time to come on our show. Oh my god, anything for you,
Adam, Thank you again for just being you so grateful man. This was
fun. Hey, right back at you. Go ahead and follow Miran on
Twitter at Miran Fader spelled like it sounds. You can follow me on Twitter
at at FROMO zero nine, follow Hardwood Knox at Hardwood Knox, and NBA
Math at NBA Underscore Math, and we'll leave you with a shout out to
the one, the only Yannis