WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.320 --> 00:00:04.679 Hey, Carl and Richard here with your twenty twenty four NDC schedule. We'll 2 00:00:04.719 --> 00:00:09.160 be at as many NDC conferences as possible this year, and you should consider 3 00:00:09.199 --> 00:00:14.279 attending no matter what. The Copenhagen Developers Festival happens August twenty sixth through the 4 00:00:14.359 --> 00:00:21.519 thirtieth. Tickets at Cpchdevfest dot com. NDC Porto is happening October fourteenth through 5 00:00:21.519 --> 00:00:27.399 the eighteenth. The early discount ends June fourteenth. Tickets at Ndcporto dot com. 6 00:00:27.440 --> 00:00:42.920 We'll see you there, we hope. Hey, guess what, it's 7 00:00:42.920 --> 00:00:49.920 dot net rocks again for the nineteen hundredth and seventh time something like that. 8 00:00:50.079 --> 00:00:52.759 Is that I say that right, nineteen hundred and seventh time. It's a 9 00:00:52.759 --> 00:00:55.200 lot of it's a lot of times. It's a lot of times, a 10 00:00:55.240 --> 00:00:59.560 lot of great feedback on that show with Hanselman seven shows ago. Oh yeah, 11 00:00:59.560 --> 00:01:02.439 we had some fun, and I think I think that came across right 12 00:01:02.640 --> 00:01:07.200 totally really enjoying ourselves, really good, good stuff. And I haven't talked 13 00:01:07.200 --> 00:01:08.439 to you in a while, my friend, what's new with you? You 14 00:01:08.439 --> 00:01:11.120 know, finally home for the whole summer, which is about as long as 15 00:01:11.159 --> 00:01:17.319 I ever stay home. So the coast is beautiful and sunny because it's summertime. 16 00:01:17.400 --> 00:01:19.840 You know. We cleaned up everything around the boat house, got the 17 00:01:19.920 --> 00:01:23.319 kayaks out, doing all that good stuff. Now, we had an Independence 18 00:01:23.400 --> 00:01:26.560 Day here, yeah, just I went and participated in it. Yeah, 19 00:01:26.640 --> 00:01:30.359 and and but you also had Canada Day a little while ago. Yep, 20 00:01:30.560 --> 00:01:34.560 so I did Canada. It was for more chill. There's some spots to 21 00:01:34.560 --> 00:01:38.920 do fun polite anyway. Yeah, and we definitely do community fireworks versus individual 22 00:01:38.959 --> 00:01:45.079 fireworks. But then I went down to the Sinomish Valley, which is in 23 00:01:45.120 --> 00:01:49.079 the north of Everett in Washington State, which is quite a bit more rural. 24 00:01:49.719 --> 00:01:52.640 But I also think there's a bunch of tech folks that moved there. 25 00:01:53.439 --> 00:01:57.640 So dude, it sounded like rolling thunder out of Vietnam. There was explosions 26 00:01:57.719 --> 00:02:01.200 all around the farm going on all of the time. Now when there were 27 00:02:01.200 --> 00:02:07.319 fireworks in Canada, did everybody apologize after every explosion? Was that? Is 28 00:02:07.359 --> 00:02:10.199 that the custom? But we definitely let professionals do the fireworks. We don't 29 00:02:10.280 --> 00:02:14.759 let individuals. Sorry. You know, I was hanging out with the hunters 30 00:02:14.800 --> 00:02:19.080 and those They had three inch mortars, you know, firing these gigantic, 31 00:02:19.680 --> 00:02:23.199 you know, explosives into the air. It was. It was crazy, 32 00:02:23.680 --> 00:02:24.800 really a lot of fun. They had a great time. All right, 33 00:02:24.840 --> 00:02:29.520 Well, I can't really say much has happened in my life except a couple 34 00:02:29.520 --> 00:02:32.759 of good band gigs and just enjoying the Yeah, apparently are bands tearing it 35 00:02:32.840 --> 00:02:36.120 up. Like you know, you don't fit in the bar anymore. You 36 00:02:36.199 --> 00:02:38.400 need to do festivals. We're gonna have to do festivals in theaters pretty soon. 37 00:02:38.879 --> 00:02:43.159 But anyway, that's all I got. I'm gonna roll the crazy music 38 00:02:43.199 --> 00:02:54.120 for better no framework. Awesome. So this one came from our friend Simon 39 00:02:54.199 --> 00:03:00.479 Kropp, who participates in the app Phoenix slack room. And this is amazing. 40 00:03:02.719 --> 00:03:09.039 Dot app okay search across a half a million git repos. Wow, 41 00:03:09.560 --> 00:03:15.759 it's like Google forget nice. And then it's there's a couple of checkboxes here 42 00:03:15.879 --> 00:03:23.120 case sensitive and the one I like the best regular expression you can You can 43 00:03:23.199 --> 00:03:29.319 search grab a million get repos with a regularly forget reposts to understand regicks in 44 00:03:29.360 --> 00:03:31.080 the first place. Now you're asking me to use rejects to find that like 45 00:03:31.159 --> 00:03:34.960 that is not a thing. And then there's whole words. So the first 46 00:03:35.000 --> 00:03:38.319 thing of course that I check is you know, connection string right to see 47 00:03:38.319 --> 00:03:44.000 if who's put their connection strings in their Git repos. And I gotta say 48 00:03:44.039 --> 00:03:47.439 I didn't really find any. Okay, yeah, well, I mean my 49 00:03:47.479 --> 00:03:51.039 biggest problem with this is you search you such a large number, like try 50 00:03:51.080 --> 00:03:55.599 and get a filter an expression down to just like five. Yeah, good 51 00:03:55.639 --> 00:04:00.000 luck, good luck with that some summer reading for you. It was a 52 00:04:00.039 --> 00:04:03.840 lot and go nice. So that's what I got, Thank you, Simon 53 00:04:03.919 --> 00:04:11.080 gp Dot app code search is a serious time vampire. Yeah no, And 54 00:04:11.319 --> 00:04:13.919 I think the logical thing you stick in there is like a line of code 55 00:04:13.919 --> 00:04:17.160 you're working on, or a particular API you call and finding examples of it 56 00:04:17.639 --> 00:04:20.879 for sure, right, and that stuff you don't want to use GitHub copilot 57 00:04:21.000 --> 00:04:26.560 or chat tpt or whatever stack overflow like let's stack over look another option. 58 00:04:26.839 --> 00:04:30.160 There you go. So that's what I got. Who's talking to us today? 59 00:04:30.240 --> 00:04:32.199 Richard grabbed a comment off the show nineteen oh three, the one we 60 00:04:32.240 --> 00:04:35.279 did with our friend Beth Mass when we talked about Maui and Blazer. I 61 00:04:35.319 --> 00:04:38.720 think that was a build. Wasn't that a build too? Yep? It 62 00:04:38.959 --> 00:04:42.959 was it build? And Rod had this comment, I think this is ron 63 00:04:43.000 --> 00:04:45.600 Falanga. I'm not quite sure, but Rod had this comedy said I love 64 00:04:45.680 --> 00:04:48.079 this episode. It was great to hear best comments on the various UI technologies 65 00:04:48.240 --> 00:04:53.000 that Microsoft supports. I understand if she prefers Blazer, but appreciate her points 66 00:04:53.000 --> 00:04:57.319 out under circumstances, either WPF, whin UI three or MAUI would be a 67 00:04:57.319 --> 00:05:01.959 better choice. It's a it situation. Or put differently, use the right 68 00:05:02.000 --> 00:05:06.360 tool for the job rather than force one tool to address all scenarios. Or 69 00:05:08.160 --> 00:05:10.680 you know, is there any one right tool for any job? Like there's 70 00:05:10.720 --> 00:05:14.680 more than one way to solve most problems. And he goes on to say 71 00:05:14.720 --> 00:05:17.360 I spent about five years writing WPF apps in my current job. I like 72 00:05:17.399 --> 00:05:21.279 the power that WPF gives you. And of course WPF got a little balance 73 00:05:21.319 --> 00:05:24.759 at build right because they said they're going to do a bunch of stuff with 74 00:05:24.839 --> 00:05:28.480 include Win eights, Win eleven stuff, all kinds of things. However, 75 00:05:28.600 --> 00:05:32.240 under the wrong circumstances, WPF may result in a terrible UX experience. That's 76 00:05:32.319 --> 00:05:38.800 nice. We wrote eight WPF applications, none of which are in use today 77 00:05:38.959 --> 00:05:43.560 for various reasons, but one common reason was it the users hated the UX 78 00:05:44.040 --> 00:05:46.120 I don't blame them. It was terrible, very complicated, requiring the users 79 00:05:46.120 --> 00:05:50.120 to memorize the database schema rather than using an app that followed their workflow. 80 00:05:50.439 --> 00:05:55.360 Now I'm putting WPF behind me. I'm focused upon Blazer as I see how 81 00:05:55.360 --> 00:05:58.160 popular it is, as well as simpler in an approach to doing things like 82 00:05:58.360 --> 00:06:02.439 data binding. If I can blame WPF for that situation, Rod like, 83 00:06:02.600 --> 00:06:05.879 now, I don't think he's blaming it either. Yeah, he's just saying, 84 00:06:05.920 --> 00:06:10.079 you know, when when you have all those options available to you, 85 00:06:10.079 --> 00:06:15.959 you can create some really bad stuff. Well, I also think somebody in 86 00:06:16.000 --> 00:06:19.199 the leadership there decided that WPF was going to be a way, but then 87 00:06:19.240 --> 00:06:23.959 maybe didn't outline a set of ux plans for how we're going to do a 88 00:06:24.000 --> 00:06:30.560 good job with that. Right. Yeah, it's an interesting problem and tools 89 00:06:30.639 --> 00:06:32.759 aren't going to save you. You definitely need a plan. We certainly said 90 00:06:32.800 --> 00:06:38.360 that over and over again. I had a friend who replaced the boards on 91 00:06:38.439 --> 00:06:43.399 my back deck and you know Dio, Yeah, yeah, my friend Dean. 92 00:06:43.519 --> 00:06:47.639 Yeah, So he replaced the boards and one of them is completely warped, 93 00:06:48.120 --> 00:06:51.800 and he hammered it on nicely with the tools that he had the nails 94 00:06:51.800 --> 00:06:58.360 were great, hammer was great. He just took that warped board and nailed 95 00:06:58.360 --> 00:07:02.439 it on and it sticks up and it's ugly. And you know, you 96 00:07:02.480 --> 00:07:05.600 can do the same thing with really good tools. Yeah, you know what 97 00:07:05.639 --> 00:07:08.759 I mean. You know what I'm trying to say here. Every piece of 98 00:07:08.800 --> 00:07:12.120 software has some ugly this. You know where yours is? That's really where 99 00:07:12.360 --> 00:07:15.439 if that's your warped board, Like you did not put the warped board in 100 00:07:15.480 --> 00:07:19.240 front of the door. Yeah, well there you go, buried away in 101 00:07:19.279 --> 00:07:21.439 a place where it's not going to hurt anybody. It sounds like it came 102 00:07:21.480 --> 00:07:25.720 from personal experience. Why would I know, I don't know. I'm just 103 00:07:25.759 --> 00:07:28.759 guessing. So Rob, thank you so much for your comment. And copy 104 00:07:28.759 --> 00:07:30.759 of Musa Koba is on its way to you. And if you'd like a 105 00:07:30.800 --> 00:07:32.519 copy of Musa kobay, I write a comment on the website at dot at 106 00:07:32.560 --> 00:07:35.399 Rocks dot com or on the Facebook so we publish every show there and if 107 00:07:35.399 --> 00:07:38.879 you comment there at everybody in the show, we'll send your copy music Koba 108 00:07:39.120 --> 00:07:43.079 and you can follow us on ex Twitter if you want. We've been there 109 00:07:43.079 --> 00:07:47.519 for a long long time. But we are also with cool kids I'm mastadon, 110 00:07:48.160 --> 00:07:51.759 I'm at Carl Franklin at tech Hub dot social, and I'm Rich Campbell 111 00:07:51.920 --> 00:07:57.480 at mastadon dot social and send us a tuote. And that's another way that 112 00:07:57.560 --> 00:08:03.120 you can get your comment on our show and get some good stuff. Sure, 113 00:08:03.120 --> 00:08:07.920 okay, let's bring on our guest, Hillary Stows Crowsy. She's a 114 00:08:07.000 --> 00:08:15.240 childhood coder turned public radio journalist turned software engineer. She's passionate about the intersection 115 00:08:15.279 --> 00:08:20.399 of tech, entrepreneurship and social justice, and serves on boards for a tech 116 00:08:20.480 --> 00:08:28.680 in Entrepreneurship festival, a tech inclusivity conference, and a social good startup accelerator. 117 00:08:28.680 --> 00:08:33.879 Currently a senior software engineer at Red Canary, she's a regular podcast guest 118 00:08:33.919 --> 00:08:39.480 and conference speaker both nationally and internationally. She became obsessed with plants during the 119 00:08:39.559 --> 00:08:43.120 pandemic and will read any fantasy or sci fi she can get her hands. 120 00:08:43.360 --> 00:08:50.000 Nice, what a great bio. I'm interested in the public radio journalism thing. 121 00:08:50.240 --> 00:08:52.840 Yeah, what was that all about? Yeah? Well, I started 122 00:08:54.159 --> 00:09:00.279 writing code when I was like twelve. I've an identical twin, says her, 123 00:09:00.320 --> 00:09:03.720 and we made a website dedicated to our favorite TV show at the time, 124 00:09:03.919 --> 00:09:07.639 which was Buffy The Vampire Slayer. Awesome. Mm hm, this was 125 00:09:07.679 --> 00:09:11.840 like PRECSS, right. We had a guestbook, we had a counter, 126 00:09:11.000 --> 00:09:18.799 we had like all of the early feedture. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 127 00:09:20.039 --> 00:09:26.919 totally. There was so much nicer. Did it look like hamster Dance dot 128 00:09:26.960 --> 00:09:31.320 com? I like to think it was slightly, but we had fewer repeating 129 00:09:31.360 --> 00:09:35.120 gifts. But okay, yes, uh well she she knows what that is. 130 00:09:35.159 --> 00:09:41.960 That's really that was my real test, you know. Yeah, but 131 00:09:41.039 --> 00:09:45.679 this would have been like mid nineties, you know, and and literally no 132 00:09:45.720 --> 00:09:50.360 one told me that I could do that for a job, so I didn't. 133 00:09:50.000 --> 00:09:54.159 Uh So I went into journalism instead. And then just you know, 134 00:09:54.240 --> 00:09:58.759 long story short, kind of every job I had in journalism, it was 135 00:09:58.799 --> 00:10:01.559 moving more and more towards the web and the Internet, and I started doing 136 00:10:01.600 --> 00:10:03.919 a lot more of that with my work, and I just kind of got 137 00:10:03.919 --> 00:10:07.240 to the point where I was like, Okay, I love the work I'm 138 00:10:07.240 --> 00:10:13.360 doing, but there are no jobs and there's no money, so maybe it's 139 00:10:13.440 --> 00:10:16.039 time to just do this other part full time. And it was the public 140 00:10:16.120 --> 00:10:20.240 radio thing, a local public radio or was an NPR what was it? 141 00:10:20.399 --> 00:10:22.679 Yeah, it was an MPR affiliate. And then I did a couple of 142 00:10:22.679 --> 00:10:26.279 things nationally. It's great, great, yeah, yeah, very cool. 143 00:10:26.360 --> 00:10:31.000 Yeah, but it also means you come from a communications background too, right, 144 00:10:31.080 --> 00:10:33.559 Like you're used to putting your thoughts in an organized form. Like when 145 00:10:33.559 --> 00:10:39.200 you think about building good web design, may making decent pages, it's about 146 00:10:39.240 --> 00:10:43.679 making a plant. Yeah. Yeah. I like to talk about this idea 147 00:10:43.720 --> 00:10:48.559 of narrative coding, so like writing code like you're telling a story. Yeah, 148 00:10:48.720 --> 00:10:52.559 that's a really great approach. I love it. That's a good idea. 149 00:10:52.000 --> 00:10:56.639 And just I mean you're trying to persuade your customer to think the right 150 00:10:56.679 --> 00:11:00.360 way so you can lead them to where they actually want to go. Mm 151 00:11:00.519 --> 00:11:03.639 hmm, yeah, I love it. That's good. That's a great approach. 152 00:11:03.720 --> 00:11:07.279 I have never done that. Should have thought of it. Needed a 153 00:11:07.360 --> 00:11:11.600 journalist. All makes sense now. And what's Red Canary? Yeah? So, 154 00:11:11.679 --> 00:11:16.679 rad Canary is a cybersecurity company based in the US. I'm headquartered in 155 00:11:16.759 --> 00:11:22.879 Denver, and we work with a whole wide variety of customers on sort of 156 00:11:22.879 --> 00:11:28.840 basically pulling in data from a wide variety of sources like local servers, cloud 157 00:11:28.960 --> 00:11:33.519 like, kind of the whole shebang, and then running it through our engine, 158 00:11:33.559 --> 00:11:37.320 which is built on more than a decade of experience of kind of looking 159 00:11:37.320 --> 00:11:41.279 for anomalies and then taking action on those anomalies to protect customers from potential threats. 160 00:11:41.519 --> 00:11:45.679 Nice. So a service you sign up to and they you're doing some 161 00:11:45.720 --> 00:11:50.120 monitoring on their behalf and then helping to deal with response sounds like a run 162 00:11:50.159 --> 00:11:54.080 ass topic, but it's a good one. So if my friend who put 163 00:11:54.120 --> 00:12:01.240 those boards on my deck was a brand new developer and had its nice shiny 164 00:12:01.320 --> 00:12:07.000 nails and hammer, what would you tell him about how to go how to 165 00:12:07.080 --> 00:12:13.240 how to start thinking about good user experience? Are we going with the uh 166 00:12:13.799 --> 00:12:18.519 the like wood metaphor? Are we are we let's let's let's jump back to 167 00:12:18.559 --> 00:12:24.440 coding. Yeah, so I think well, as I was going to say, 168 00:12:24.440 --> 00:12:26.919 it's like get a different board, my friend, Ye, that's kind 169 00:12:26.960 --> 00:12:31.080 of where I was going to It's like, deal, why put the bent 170 00:12:31.159 --> 00:12:37.519 board on? Go get a new board? M hm yeah. I you 171 00:12:37.559 --> 00:12:41.840 know, in a nutshell, I think the biggest thing with U x ui 172 00:12:43.080 --> 00:12:48.200 is just consistency. So even if you end up picking a pattern that's maybe 173 00:12:48.279 --> 00:12:52.759 subpar or a little confusing, as long as you follow that pattern right, 174 00:12:52.840 --> 00:12:56.559 people will learn it and then it stops being confusing. So so I think 175 00:12:56.679 --> 00:13:01.679 I think really what has the biggest impact is just being predictable with your design. 176 00:13:01.039 --> 00:13:05.960 The problem is you're learning as you go and so you change techniques as 177 00:13:05.000 --> 00:13:09.519 you learn things, and it gets represented all through the site. Well that 178 00:13:09.639 --> 00:13:11.159 was the point where I learned this, so then I changed it. I 179 00:13:11.159 --> 00:13:16.240 didn't go back and retro fit everything I've built before that. So that's where 180 00:13:16.279 --> 00:13:20.080 patterns and like style guides really come in handy. Right. So if instead 181 00:13:20.120 --> 00:13:24.000 of styling, for example, individual buttons, if you just have like a 182 00:13:24.000 --> 00:13:28.480 button class or a module that you just insert every time you need it, 183 00:13:28.480 --> 00:13:31.080 then when you want to change that button, you just change it in one 184 00:13:31.120 --> 00:13:33.759 place and it filters everywhere and all the buttons changes. Mm hmmm. So 185 00:13:33.919 --> 00:13:37.080 the this is where we talking about good You don't have to know a lot 186 00:13:37.120 --> 00:13:39.759 about design, but here's a good practice. Is then a design person could 187 00:13:39.759 --> 00:13:43.240 come in and restyle that for you, and they will and they will. 188 00:13:45.720 --> 00:13:48.600 Yeah. I think a lot with like UX and design is we think of 189 00:13:48.679 --> 00:13:52.279 it as being very divorced from the code part of it. But as someone 190 00:13:52.320 --> 00:13:56.200 who has been a full stack software engineer and has done design as well, 191 00:13:56.240 --> 00:14:01.799 like web design, they really are two sides of the same coin. And 192 00:14:01.840 --> 00:14:03.960 I think a lot of the same principles can apply. Right, So if 193 00:14:03.960 --> 00:14:07.759 we're thinking about design, like dry right, don't repeat yourself, like don't 194 00:14:07.759 --> 00:14:11.279 repeat your design code, right, don't repeat your regular code, and it 195 00:14:11.360 --> 00:14:13.440 just makes it all flexible for the same reasons. Does that mean that yagny 196 00:14:13.559 --> 00:14:18.279 also applies, like don't add styles that you're not using, like you're not 197 00:14:18.320 --> 00:14:26.320 going to need them. Yes, yes, yeah, I mean that's great, 198 00:14:26.559 --> 00:14:28.360 just just thinking through we have I think, I like a developers like, 199 00:14:28.399 --> 00:14:31.600 don't build stuff you don't need. If you do something twice, make 200 00:14:31.679 --> 00:14:35.720 it repeatable, start out simple, you can you know, like what's the 201 00:14:35.960 --> 00:14:41.039 the core thing you're trying to accomplish here, and then you can make it 202 00:14:41.080 --> 00:14:48.120 fancy later. Mm hm, I mean what about nibny what's that one? 203 00:14:48.879 --> 00:14:52.360 Nib me? What is it? Not in my backyard nimby? Yeah, 204 00:14:52.399 --> 00:14:58.360 but you could say not in my something yamo, that's what I would do, 205 00:15:00.519 --> 00:15:07.519 not my base, not my base. M that's it. That's so 206 00:15:07.639 --> 00:15:11.639 funny. I'm sorry, Okay, yeah, I mean, and these are 207 00:15:11.679 --> 00:15:16.440 just like because often we're committed to building a site before we've got really a 208 00:15:16.440 --> 00:15:20.799 design in place. But when I've when I make confronted with this a lot 209 00:15:20.840 --> 00:15:24.559 of times, I just like, let's get a CMS. Hm does she 210 00:15:24.919 --> 00:15:28.120 use a third I don't know how you feel about this, but it's like, 211 00:15:28.159 --> 00:15:30.720 why are we reinventing this? You want to put a bunch of pages 212 00:15:30.799 --> 00:15:33.720 up and like there are tools for this already, we don't need to start 213 00:15:33.720 --> 00:15:37.440 from scratch. Yeah, totally. I think. I think it really depends 214 00:15:37.679 --> 00:15:46.799 on the the project and the audience and the intention. So for example, 215 00:15:46.879 --> 00:15:48.679 I love squarespace. I know, there's not the mother. Everybody's got their 216 00:15:48.720 --> 00:15:54.840 favorite. For me, square Space is mine. And you know, like 217 00:15:54.879 --> 00:16:00.120 I this. I helpe run the Madison edition of dev Best like the Global 218 00:16:00.159 --> 00:16:03.879 GDG Festival, right, and we use squarespace. And somebody was like, 219 00:16:03.879 --> 00:16:07.440 well, you're a dev conference, shouldn't you like handcraft your site? And 220 00:16:07.440 --> 00:16:11.919 I'm like, why to do with our time? Yeah? I write code. 221 00:16:11.960 --> 00:16:15.480 You don't need to write. Well, even if you don't deploy it. 222 00:16:15.480 --> 00:16:19.279 It's a great way to get people to prototype. It's just get you 223 00:16:19.320 --> 00:16:22.080 know, get close to what they want and then at least you can grab 224 00:16:22.120 --> 00:16:26.279 onto it and say, let's go take this in a different direction. Oh, 225 00:16:26.360 --> 00:16:29.080 Yeah. I used to work in consulting, mostly with startups, and 226 00:16:29.120 --> 00:16:30.919 we always told them, like there were people that we turned down as clients 227 00:16:30.919 --> 00:16:33.399 because I was like, look, you can get by for at least a 228 00:16:33.519 --> 00:16:40.879 year, like seeing if this is even a valid business idea using a mix 229 00:16:40.960 --> 00:16:45.960 of like Gmail and spreadsheets and like online forms, like you don't actually need 230 00:16:45.000 --> 00:16:48.559 custom software yet. Figure out first is that if this is even going to 231 00:16:48.600 --> 00:16:52.320 make you any money, and then come back and we'll talk. Then you 232 00:16:52.360 --> 00:16:57.000 have these companies that already have existing web apps built in other things, and 233 00:16:57.000 --> 00:17:03.279 then they're moving to maybe new tech now and they want to start completely over 234 00:17:03.360 --> 00:17:07.400 with style that isn't something that you're a square space or something like that is 235 00:17:07.400 --> 00:17:11.480 going to work. They already have an application framework on the back end. 236 00:17:11.640 --> 00:17:18.160 Now they need a developer or a CSS stylist to come in and you know, 237 00:17:18.319 --> 00:17:21.960 take over exactly. Yeah, I mean I think all, like so 238 00:17:22.000 --> 00:17:23.319 many things in tech, right, there is a time and a place for 239 00:17:23.400 --> 00:17:26.680 each tool where it's a great fit, and there's times where you're either going 240 00:17:26.759 --> 00:17:30.240 to outgrow it or it's going to be too limiting, you know, And 241 00:17:30.319 --> 00:17:37.039 so see MSS are one example. Another is using like like design libraries, 242 00:17:37.160 --> 00:17:41.039 like like a tailwind, right, a bootstrap. For a lot of people, 243 00:17:41.599 --> 00:17:45.519 that's going to be great, Like we use bootstrap at Red Canary, 244 00:17:45.000 --> 00:17:51.880 But for a lot of other people it's it's it's either going to be overhead 245 00:17:51.920 --> 00:17:56.920 that's not necessary because you're recustomizing everything anyway, or it's just not going to 246 00:17:57.000 --> 00:18:00.920 get you, you know, where you need to be designed. So especially 247 00:18:00.960 --> 00:18:06.119 if you're you know, like building a website where you're trying to sell your 248 00:18:06.119 --> 00:18:11.319 design expertise. Yeah, yeah, bootstraps probably not going to do that effectively, 249 00:18:11.440 --> 00:18:14.480 right, Sure, But if I'm a developer who doesn't got a lot 250 00:18:14.519 --> 00:18:18.559 of design experiences, Like, isn't boot bootstrap a good choice just because it's 251 00:18:18.599 --> 00:18:22.079 going to give it an aesthetic by default and then an expert can come in 252 00:18:22.119 --> 00:18:26.480 and retrofit fairly easily. Is that true? Or does it make it situation 253 00:18:26.640 --> 00:18:30.400 worse? I think it It Again depends like if you're expecting that, like 254 00:18:30.440 --> 00:18:37.960 if you're only using bootstrap or sort of the prototype and it's happening sort of 255 00:18:37.759 --> 00:18:41.000 consecutively, so it's like, Okay, we come in, we build the 256 00:18:41.039 --> 00:18:44.319 first page, we use bootstrap. We know someone's gonna come in tear all 257 00:18:44.319 --> 00:18:45.240 the Bootstrap out and put it. You know, then I don't think it's 258 00:18:45.240 --> 00:18:49.000 a great use, right. I think in that case, I would rather 259 00:18:49.200 --> 00:18:55.920 just build my own lightweight library with some core classes and use that because then 260 00:18:55.920 --> 00:18:59.680 you also don't have to worry about keeping it updated, right like it's you 261 00:18:59.720 --> 00:19:02.960 know, if if you're really using it just to create like placeholder content, 262 00:19:03.039 --> 00:19:07.200 then I would just spend at my own minimalist one and use that just a 263 00:19:07.200 --> 00:19:11.960 little less placeholder effectively. Like so Bootstrap's not a good placeholder. I think 264 00:19:11.000 --> 00:19:15.319 bootstrap is. There's a lot of things that are great about and I do 265 00:19:15.400 --> 00:19:18.480 have like I go back and forth on you know, I'm someone who actually 266 00:19:18.480 --> 00:19:22.119 really likes to write her own CSS, and sometimes I get annoyed with like 267 00:19:23.519 --> 00:19:27.440 the way that there are constraints when you use a library like that, and 268 00:19:27.440 --> 00:19:30.680 sometimes I want to just like I know exactly what I want. I just 269 00:19:30.720 --> 00:19:32.599 want it to work. I don't want to have to look up the you 270 00:19:32.599 --> 00:19:36.000 know, seven different classes I have to put together to get it to do 271 00:19:36.039 --> 00:19:37.799 this, like one thing I did this myself, I wouldn't have this problem, 272 00:19:37.880 --> 00:19:41.480 nice right, right, Yeah, And you know, for people who 273 00:19:41.559 --> 00:19:47.000 who are less experience with CSS, or just you know, there are higher 274 00:19:47.000 --> 00:19:48.440 priorities for them to spend their time on. Yeah, bootstrap can be a 275 00:19:48.440 --> 00:19:52.519 great way, Bootstrap, channelent, all of those can save a lot of 276 00:19:52.559 --> 00:19:56.279 developer time once you get into it. But you know, one thing also, 277 00:19:56.440 --> 00:19:59.640 we have a lot of back end folks at Canary, and I'll see 278 00:19:59.680 --> 00:20:03.279 folks who just do like in line style calls because they don't know what the 279 00:20:03.279 --> 00:20:07.359 bootstrap class is and they just need five pixels of margin on the left and 280 00:20:07.079 --> 00:20:14.799 you know, crazy right, Like that's yeah, and that the designer we 281 00:20:14.880 --> 00:20:18.640 work with also is an engineer, and so she's great about like when she 282 00:20:18.720 --> 00:20:22.440 writes code, she'll fix those things for us. But you know, so 283 00:20:22.440 --> 00:20:26.720 it's all it's all trade offs. But I think I think there are limits 284 00:20:26.759 --> 00:20:29.200 to all of those, and there are times where you do need to just 285 00:20:29.279 --> 00:20:33.480 kind of like handcraft what it's going to look like. Doesn't get hubco pilot 286 00:20:33.519 --> 00:20:37.000 met it's easier. Clearly, I'm writing better CSS because I asked chat GPT 287 00:20:37.440 --> 00:20:45.759 again. Okay, okay, that's okay. That's how Canadians make make jokes 288 00:20:45.799 --> 00:20:52.119 deep straight face. You did mention that consistency was the number one thing. 289 00:20:52.880 --> 00:20:57.079 Uh, And you know creating style guides? Are there any basic style guides 290 00:20:57.119 --> 00:21:02.319 that you recommend to be people who are starting out? You know, I 291 00:21:02.720 --> 00:21:07.759 think of things that Mark Miller talked about in his amazing video The Science of 292 00:21:07.839 --> 00:21:12.559 Great Ui, where he talked about contrast and the things that the things that 293 00:21:12.599 --> 00:21:18.279 you can do to draw your eye to things and then you know, using 294 00:21:18.359 --> 00:21:23.720 a lighter contrast for things that aren't as important at this particular moment. Are 295 00:21:23.720 --> 00:21:26.839 there style guides that are out there that you would send to people. That's 296 00:21:26.880 --> 00:21:33.279 a great question, and I'm sure there are. I haven't really approached it 297 00:21:33.319 --> 00:21:41.079 from that direction. I mean, I think it's it's there. You know. 298 00:21:41.119 --> 00:21:42.240 Contrast is a big one, and that's something that I you know, 299 00:21:42.319 --> 00:21:47.440 and when I talk about this topic, that's a big thing that I pull 300 00:21:47.480 --> 00:21:49.240 up, is like make sure you have high enough contrast, the right kind 301 00:21:49.240 --> 00:21:56.920 of contrast in the right places. To your point, it's really I think 302 00:21:56.519 --> 00:22:04.599 I think people oftentimes think of design and as strictly a creative aesthetic thing. 303 00:22:06.400 --> 00:22:08.160 Yeah, or like you have to be you have to have a good imagination, 304 00:22:08.240 --> 00:22:10.839 you have to be creative. I have to be good at art, 305 00:22:11.200 --> 00:22:14.279 you know, that kind of thing. And I think there's a well, 306 00:22:14.319 --> 00:22:15.319 I know, there's a lot of logic too, and I think that's really 307 00:22:15.359 --> 00:22:19.200 where you ex is kind of pulled in and say, hey, actually there's 308 00:22:19.400 --> 00:22:25.799 statistics and logic and psychology behind all of this. It's not just choosing colors. 309 00:22:26.279 --> 00:22:30.240 And so I think really, once you have even a brief understanding of 310 00:22:30.240 --> 00:22:33.880 that, like, it just makes everything a lot easier. Well, and 311 00:22:33.920 --> 00:22:37.079 certainly we've done the shows. I've done a bunch of shows now with folks 312 00:22:37.160 --> 00:22:42.480 focused on accessibility that talk about the fact that the modern web is way better 313 00:22:42.839 --> 00:22:48.319 at giving you structures to be able to help folks that have accessibility challenges interact 314 00:22:48.359 --> 00:22:52.920 with your page, you just have to know about them. Mm hmm. 315 00:22:52.680 --> 00:22:56.559 Yeah. And really, at this point, I don't think there's an excuse 316 00:22:56.640 --> 00:23:00.880 not to, right, there's so many good resources out there. There are, 317 00:23:00.519 --> 00:23:03.880 you know, browser plugins to tell you exactly what's wrong and how to 318 00:23:03.920 --> 00:23:08.559 fix it. And it's one of those things where when you are accounting for 319 00:23:08.680 --> 00:23:15.359 accessibility needs, you end up with better design. It's just they go hand 320 00:23:15.400 --> 00:23:18.440 in hand, right, It's just a natural byproduct, like to heck with 321 00:23:18.519 --> 00:23:23.599 the aesthetic, pursue accessibility and you will get a bunch of esthetic from it. 322 00:23:23.720 --> 00:23:27.039 Yeah. Yeah, I think that's very proud, and especially for someone 323 00:23:27.039 --> 00:23:32.920 who's not into that design element to say, now we'll just pursue this and 324 00:23:32.960 --> 00:23:34.920 I'll watch that other stuff's going to fall out from it. Yeah. And 325 00:23:36.359 --> 00:23:38.880 that brings me back to what we were talking about before, which is that 326 00:23:41.079 --> 00:23:45.720 the intention of the website should be obvious and clear when you're on a page, 327 00:23:45.759 --> 00:23:49.680 a particular page, and it shouldn't have to be explained. You shouldn't 328 00:23:49.720 --> 00:23:53.680 have to read a paragraph of text. If it's not clear and obvious, 329 00:23:55.279 --> 00:23:59.519 then you have a real problem. And you can you can measure these things 330 00:23:59.599 --> 00:24:03.799 obviously, and we've talked about how to measure them with you know, what 331 00:24:03.839 --> 00:24:08.960 do they call it hotspots and where tracking where the mouse goes, which is 332 00:24:08.960 --> 00:24:14.200 sort of where the eye goes. Yeah, and you can tell that people 333 00:24:14.240 --> 00:24:19.680 do that they they move the mouse with their eyes on over a page when 334 00:24:19.680 --> 00:24:23.720 they're looking for things. And I find this when I'm sharing a screen with 335 00:24:25.079 --> 00:24:29.400 a customer and they're looking at the code and stuff and they're trying to find 336 00:24:29.440 --> 00:24:32.440 something in a list, and they're going the mouse is going up, and 337 00:24:32.480 --> 00:24:34.440 it's going down and it's going up. It's like no, it's right there 338 00:24:34.519 --> 00:24:41.440 up over there too far right. Yeah. I had to have the other 339 00:24:41.519 --> 00:24:45.279 day a coworker with sharing their screen and trying to find a specific ticket, 340 00:24:47.240 --> 00:24:49.720 and like their mouse was actually hovering over it, but after looking for a 341 00:24:49.720 --> 00:24:52.119 while, they didn't realize that and they went to do a like command deft 342 00:24:52.160 --> 00:24:57.400 to search for it, And I was like, right, but you know, 343 00:24:57.440 --> 00:25:03.440 those kinds of situations all so illustrate a poor design in a way, 344 00:25:03.599 --> 00:25:07.079 because it shouldn't take that long to find what you're looking for. If you 345 00:25:07.119 --> 00:25:11.400 have if you're presented with a huge list of options, you know, then 346 00:25:11.480 --> 00:25:15.559 it takes all that mental and physical time too. Yes, find Yes. 347 00:25:17.000 --> 00:25:19.279 I mean that fits right into this idea of progressive disclosure, right, which 348 00:25:19.319 --> 00:25:23.039 is you disclose information progressively. You're not doing it all at the same time. 349 00:25:23.359 --> 00:25:26.200 Love that you're not overwhelming the person with content, but you're making it 350 00:25:26.240 --> 00:25:30.160 easy for them to find what they're looking for, right. I love that 351 00:25:30.200 --> 00:25:33.599 it's kind of like you know, a search box. Right. So you 352 00:25:33.680 --> 00:25:36.440 go in and have a meeting with somebody in the first question is why are 353 00:25:36.480 --> 00:25:40.079 you here? You know, to start out with something very general and you 354 00:25:40.160 --> 00:25:44.160 get to exactly what you want yeah, I had an oval ux experience. 355 00:25:44.200 --> 00:25:48.319 Actually, this morning, I was trying to get the account number for a 356 00:25:48.359 --> 00:25:52.640 bank account for the help run a women in tech group here in time. 357 00:25:53.160 --> 00:25:57.160 We just got a bank account where like getting getting real and fancy and official, 358 00:25:57.680 --> 00:26:02.000 and I was trying to hook it up to our PayPal account and it 359 00:26:02.079 --> 00:26:03.720 kept rejecting it. So I called the bank and I said, and she 360 00:26:03.799 --> 00:26:07.200 was like, Okay, go to your page, click on the account, 361 00:26:07.279 --> 00:26:11.119 click on about account, which is where I had been, and she's like, 362 00:26:11.160 --> 00:26:12.359 do you see the one that's called account number? And I said yeah. 363 00:26:12.440 --> 00:26:19.960 She's like, it's not that one website disclosure. Bank websites are the 364 00:26:21.000 --> 00:26:23.119 worst. You could tell she'd done this before because she was like, I 365 00:26:23.200 --> 00:26:26.880 know, it's confusing, you actually want the one underneath. And I was 366 00:26:26.920 --> 00:26:33.640 like, why the bank website that we use to make ach payments to, 367 00:26:33.319 --> 00:26:40.319 you know, our vendors. The process is so screwed up. You go 368 00:26:40.440 --> 00:26:44.480 basically to this page and before you can do anything, you have to scroll 369 00:26:44.519 --> 00:26:48.000 all the way down to the bottom of the page right and then hit new 370 00:26:48.079 --> 00:26:52.759 whatever it's at the bottom of the page, which is just one big list 371 00:26:52.440 --> 00:26:56.160 dumb dumb, dumb, dumb, and then after you put something in, 372 00:26:56.599 --> 00:26:59.799 you have to go to the top of the page and you have to sort 373 00:27:00.000 --> 00:27:04.359 twice to get it to show up at the top. Just little things like 374 00:27:04.400 --> 00:27:08.400 that drive me nuts, and my wife too, who does who uses it 375 00:27:08.480 --> 00:27:12.839 all the time. It is just unbelievable. Banks just like I don't know 376 00:27:12.920 --> 00:27:15.920 if it's just my bank, but I think a big thing with design, 377 00:27:17.000 --> 00:27:19.960 Like I think a lot about because I'm not I have limited training. So 378 00:27:21.559 --> 00:27:26.160 if you need me to make like a you know, like a one off 379 00:27:26.400 --> 00:27:30.519 event website for some cool new art exhibit, like I am you're the wrong 380 00:27:30.599 --> 00:27:36.839 person for that, But I think a lot of it. Really for the 381 00:27:36.960 --> 00:27:40.359 majority of what we're building, right, we don't need that kind of like 382 00:27:40.880 --> 00:27:45.279 high intensity design. We just need something that's functional, functional, And a 383 00:27:45.319 --> 00:27:51.240 big part is is preventing frustration, right, Like you don't really need to 384 00:27:51.279 --> 00:27:52.839 impress someone, Like I don't really need someone to come and be like, 385 00:27:52.880 --> 00:27:56.319 wow, this is such a great design, Like I'm going to screen all 386 00:27:56.319 --> 00:27:59.920 this instid of no, but I want them to like not complain about it, 387 00:28:00.160 --> 00:28:04.319 right, Yeah, once they get frustrated, to get into that negative 388 00:28:04.319 --> 00:28:10.519 spiral and they're actually less and less capable right, like they're really going to 389 00:28:10.559 --> 00:28:12.559 have a tough time. But watch someone just unravel on that. I also 390 00:28:14.200 --> 00:28:17.920 jump back to we do have a tendency as developers. You just say, 391 00:28:18.000 --> 00:28:21.240 let's make sure all the options are available. I will build the dialogue of 392 00:28:21.319 --> 00:28:26.720 Doom. And it's just like the Internet, everything's there, you just can't 393 00:28:26.759 --> 00:28:30.960 find it, right, Yeah, and it's not let them figure it out. 394 00:28:32.200 --> 00:28:34.880 Yeah. It is not progressive design, that's for sure, or progressive 395 00:28:34.920 --> 00:28:40.960 disclosure. It's like, no, here you go. You just said something 396 00:28:40.960 --> 00:28:42.680 that hit a nerve. And Richard and I both talked about this in different 397 00:28:42.680 --> 00:28:47.799 contexts. But you know, it's kind of like the sound guy at a 398 00:28:47.880 --> 00:28:51.000 concert. You know, you don't go up to the sound guy after the 399 00:28:51.000 --> 00:28:53.559 concert and sayd whoa, that was so amazing. However, if there's a 400 00:28:53.599 --> 00:28:59.000 blast of feedback, oh that freaking sound guy, Oh my god, what 401 00:28:59.119 --> 00:29:02.599 an idiot? Right, Yeah, in the same way, well, no 402 00:29:02.599 --> 00:29:04.960 one notices, no, that's right. Yeah, and good audio is like 403 00:29:06.039 --> 00:29:10.799 that. And you know, Richard jokes a lot like it. People never 404 00:29:11.000 --> 00:29:15.640 get the recognition that developers get unless something really goes wrong, and then those 405 00:29:15.680 --> 00:29:21.880 stupid it guys you can only you only get a C or you can get 406 00:29:21.920 --> 00:29:26.160 an F there's nothing else that's it. And if you get a CEE, 407 00:29:26.279 --> 00:29:30.920 nobody can tell. So I mean that's the joke about actually designing a webpage. 408 00:29:30.920 --> 00:29:34.240 Well, if nobody notices you nailed it, Yeah, either that or 409 00:29:34.279 --> 00:29:38.920 they're too afraid to tell anybody or don't even know how to articulate what the 410 00:29:40.000 --> 00:29:42.799 problem is, right, So you really got to test it and watch people 411 00:29:44.000 --> 00:29:48.039 use it, don't you. Yeah. But when I gave this talk at 412 00:29:48.240 --> 00:29:52.480 NDC OSLID, some will come up afterwards who I could tell was prepared to 413 00:29:52.480 --> 00:29:56.440 pick a fight, you know, just from his countenance and the way, 414 00:29:56.599 --> 00:29:59.480 you know, the phrasing, and he was kind of like, yeah, 415 00:29:59.519 --> 00:30:03.759 so I kind of think that we should actually have experts doing this and not 416 00:30:03.880 --> 00:30:07.640 developers. And I was like, I agree completely, Yes, I agree 417 00:30:07.640 --> 00:30:11.160 completely. This is this is there's expertise to be had here, Like we 418 00:30:11.200 --> 00:30:17.680 should have people trained to do this doing this. However, that is often 419 00:30:17.720 --> 00:30:19.960 not the case, and so ignoring the problem is not going to make it 420 00:30:21.000 --> 00:30:22.799 better. So let's at least try to equip people to do as good a 421 00:30:22.880 --> 00:30:26.119 job as they can when they have to do it. But yeah, yeah, 422 00:30:26.119 --> 00:30:29.599 that's sort of the reality we'd love to have more designers, we just 423 00:30:29.640 --> 00:30:33.759 don't. So now what do we not make anything like? That's not good 424 00:30:33.759 --> 00:30:37.720 either. And folks, we got to interrupt from one moment for this very 425 00:30:37.720 --> 00:30:42.599 important message or two or two and we're back. It's don that Rock's I'm 426 00:30:42.640 --> 00:30:45.839 Richard Campbell. Let's call Franklin. He talking to our friend Hillary and we 427 00:30:45.839 --> 00:30:51.400 were supposed to do this show in person and ozle but things so, but 428 00:30:51.519 --> 00:30:53.640 now we get to talk about your talk because it was without a while ago 429 00:30:53.720 --> 00:30:59.200 as well. Right, move further on. I think we sort of painted 430 00:30:59.240 --> 00:31:02.960 a picture of the beginning there of just some simple things that a developer can 431 00:31:03.039 --> 00:31:06.920 do because there isn't a designer available yet. Maybe that person is going to 432 00:31:06.920 --> 00:31:10.559 get to your side eventually. Maybe some point, when it gets to a 433 00:31:10.559 --> 00:31:12.319 certain level of success, we're going to spend more resources on. Like I 434 00:31:12.319 --> 00:31:17.400 can think of all these reasons. Are there other things to steer clear of 435 00:31:17.960 --> 00:31:21.960 as a as a developer as you're building a page to just not make that 436 00:31:22.039 --> 00:31:26.759 harder on the design resource when it appears. Yeah, I think really like 437 00:31:26.119 --> 00:31:30.920 keeping it simple is another big one. So not simple just in terms of 438 00:31:30.960 --> 00:31:37.440 code in the CSS or siling that you're adding. But it's also much easier 439 00:31:37.480 --> 00:31:42.200 to fall you know, if you think about like a page that has you 440 00:31:42.200 --> 00:31:45.799 know, four columns, because we're like, oh, it's four different segings, 441 00:31:45.799 --> 00:31:48.839 you know, and then maybe below that is more columns, you know, 442 00:31:48.880 --> 00:31:51.519 and it's like, okay, well this is I don't not necessarily sure 443 00:31:51.519 --> 00:31:53.519 where to start. I'm not sure where to look first. Versus if you 444 00:31:53.599 --> 00:31:57.400 had a longer wall of text but it was broken up by subhutters, that's 445 00:31:57.440 --> 00:32:00.200 actually a lot easier to consume, really, right. And of course I'm 446 00:32:00.200 --> 00:32:07.119 speaking in generalizations here because there's always exceptions and it depends on on the specific 447 00:32:07.160 --> 00:32:10.319 content that you're trying to place. But you know, I always tell people 448 00:32:10.359 --> 00:32:15.400 like, don't underthink it and don't overthink it. Great, so think about 449 00:32:15.440 --> 00:32:19.039 it some, right, don't just flap stuff on the page and call it 450 00:32:19.079 --> 00:32:22.279 good, but just be awesome, Okay, can you just do that? 451 00:32:22.200 --> 00:32:25.200 I mean, keep it simple and keep it consistent, and really those are 452 00:32:25.240 --> 00:32:30.319 like and don't take up the entire width of the computer screen. I had 453 00:32:30.319 --> 00:32:34.480 a former coworker who used to do that. I actually prompted me to start 454 00:32:34.519 --> 00:32:37.279 giving this talk because I was like that's wrong, And he's like why, 455 00:32:37.359 --> 00:32:40.519 and I'm like, I don't know. I will find out. Yeah, 456 00:32:42.119 --> 00:32:45.440 you got to work. Well, now you've kicked off a bunch of things 457 00:32:45.480 --> 00:32:49.759 like media queries like how do I make this tolerant tool a phone versus a 458 00:32:49.839 --> 00:32:52.920 tablet versus just a smaller screen? Like well, and when you keep it 459 00:32:52.960 --> 00:32:55.960 simple and stick to patterns, all of that becomes easier to write, right 460 00:32:57.039 --> 00:33:00.920 Yeah, And this is also a deficial design decision too, right, Like, 461 00:33:00.759 --> 00:33:04.000 most of the time a web page is not going to be a viewed 462 00:33:04.039 --> 00:33:07.720 on the same computer that you wrote it on, like your friend who's using 463 00:33:07.720 --> 00:33:09.559 the whole screen with It's like, listen, you're not the primary user of 464 00:33:09.559 --> 00:33:14.680 this web page. Why are you building it to your machine? Yeah? 465 00:33:14.000 --> 00:33:22.839 I think the the difference there is like if it fits on a smaller screen, 466 00:33:22.920 --> 00:33:27.119 you can also read it on a larger screen, right, right, 467 00:33:27.519 --> 00:33:35.279 Like it might not be abtuned or like the most you might wish that there 468 00:33:35.279 --> 00:33:37.079 were changes, but you can still interact with it. It's not giving you 469 00:33:37.279 --> 00:33:40.640 problems, Whereas if you build for a bigger screen and it doesn't work on 470 00:33:40.680 --> 00:33:46.240 a smaller screen, you've just lost a bunch of customers to get back to, 471 00:33:46.400 --> 00:33:52.200 like this project you're working on, who's it for really like? And 472 00:33:52.240 --> 00:33:54.000 what kind of gear do you think they have? Like what do you expect 473 00:33:54.039 --> 00:33:57.319 it to be viewed on? When? I think we make assumptions too, 474 00:33:57.400 --> 00:34:02.680 because like, most people don't have three monitors, what right? I Actually 475 00:34:04.400 --> 00:34:07.599 I have problems with my forty nine inch monitor because if I'm on a Zoom 476 00:34:07.599 --> 00:34:10.719 call or whatever and i want to share my screen, oh my god, 477 00:34:10.840 --> 00:34:15.880 it's painful. They have another monitor, right, Yeah, That's what I've 478 00:34:15.920 --> 00:34:20.920 done. Now I've got a separatenityp monitors for easy sharing, yep. Which 479 00:34:21.000 --> 00:34:25.199 doesn't make us closer to the customer. It makes us further away sometimes just 480 00:34:25.280 --> 00:34:29.199 looking at you know, to your point, like what is the gear that 481 00:34:29.480 --> 00:34:34.280 our users are using? We looked at the data for and my old company, 482 00:34:34.280 --> 00:34:36.840 we looked at the data for a client we're having an argument about whitch 483 00:34:36.840 --> 00:34:39.440 browsers we were going to officially support, right and just had them pull from 484 00:34:39.480 --> 00:34:45.679 their analytics data and it turned out that like ninety six percent of their people 485 00:34:45.719 --> 00:34:49.599 were all using Chrome conversation over and then the rest is that mobile and the 486 00:34:49.679 --> 00:34:52.079 rest were on so far. So I'm like, great, there you go 487 00:34:52.320 --> 00:35:00.639 like it using desktop, Okay, stop great yeah, so yeah, great 488 00:35:00.679 --> 00:35:06.360 to I mean this is why go get data, like because the conversations end 489 00:35:06.400 --> 00:35:08.960 real fast. When it's that kind of numbers. You got ninety percent. 490 00:35:08.960 --> 00:35:14.679 If anything, just stop like it's over now. Part of that is a 491 00:35:14.719 --> 00:35:19.679 self fulfilling prophecy. If it does not render on Safari, your Safari use 492 00:35:19.679 --> 00:35:22.679 will be low. Right yeah, yeah, I mean I ran into this 493 00:35:22.719 --> 00:35:27.599 with a project years ago where we you know, one machine, there was 494 00:35:27.639 --> 00:35:31.639 one class of machine in the organization that had very low utilization on it, 495 00:35:31.719 --> 00:35:34.960 and so they're like, well, those people just don't need it. It's 496 00:35:34.960 --> 00:35:37.400 like no, it actually doesn't run on that machine, so they just where 497 00:35:37.440 --> 00:35:38.480 they need to do that thing, they go to a different computer. So 498 00:35:38.559 --> 00:35:42.639 this was actually a really important bug to fix, but it didn't show up, 499 00:35:42.679 --> 00:35:45.679 hie on the statscause didn't happen very often because everybody already learned to work 500 00:35:45.679 --> 00:35:49.599 around it. Well, or like if there's a long running bug and you 501 00:35:49.599 --> 00:35:52.079 look at the data and you're like, oh, well, no one visits 502 00:35:52.079 --> 00:35:53.880 that page anyway, so we'll just keep not fixing it. Same thing, 503 00:35:53.960 --> 00:35:58.079 right, It's like what you could just no one visits that page because you 504 00:35:58.239 --> 00:36:01.079 just call it a security feature and call you know, as long as nobody 505 00:36:01.119 --> 00:36:07.360 uses site, it works like a hot dam. It's a threat factor removal. 506 00:36:08.119 --> 00:36:16.480 Ever since I turned off the surfer, no breaches, no record. 507 00:36:16.719 --> 00:36:22.559 Yeah, we're knocking it. We're all good. Uh, we gotta we 508 00:36:22.599 --> 00:36:25.760 gotta get back on track a little bit here. Uh what is a designer 509 00:36:25.800 --> 00:36:29.239 going to ask me when I when I have to take over the site, 510 00:36:29.519 --> 00:36:31.960 when you know, when it's they're they're down, going to start making modifications 511 00:36:32.320 --> 00:36:36.199 like is my code supposed speak for itself? Is there anything I should have 512 00:36:36.239 --> 00:36:38.000 known or kept notes on? They're going to say, how long have you 513 00:36:38.079 --> 00:36:47.159 been smoking crack? Yeah? What were you thinking? I would if we're 514 00:36:47.239 --> 00:36:52.599 if we're assuming that it's a designer who also has at least some coding skills, 515 00:36:54.199 --> 00:36:59.760 I I think there are maybe maybe a different way to answer that question 516 00:36:59.840 --> 00:37:01.920 is and said, like, what can you do to prevent the designer from 517 00:37:01.960 --> 00:37:06.320 having to ask you questions? The point is not to do not have the 518 00:37:06.400 --> 00:37:08.400 pot to you. Yeah, And so I think a lot of this comes 519 00:37:08.440 --> 00:37:13.559 down to again, it's very similar to how we write regular code, right 520 00:37:13.639 --> 00:37:19.760 like does our view code have semantic HTMO are we naming our variables things that 521 00:37:19.800 --> 00:37:22.559 the designer with little minted context can understand, Like, okay, so this 522 00:37:22.639 --> 00:37:28.440 section is clearly what corresponds to this on the browser because I can see that 523 00:37:28.480 --> 00:37:31.320 the variable names. You know, if I have I have divs that are 524 00:37:31.400 --> 00:37:36.280 named like it all, it's easy for me to follow and read and comprehend 525 00:37:36.320 --> 00:37:40.320 and then feel like I can move around safely without breaking something nice less foo 526 00:37:40.480 --> 00:37:49.239 you say, yeah, let's food, let's bar less baz. Yeah. 527 00:37:49.800 --> 00:37:52.719 And I just grabbed a just grabbed a link off of the W three W 528 00:37:52.800 --> 00:37:58.039 three Schools on Semantic Elements and it was a dot ASP page and I'm just 529 00:37:58.119 --> 00:38:01.559 like, h that's kind of funny. Oh yeah, W three Schools. 530 00:38:01.599 --> 00:38:06.920 The content is great though, Yeah, but apparently they're running an engine from 531 00:38:07.039 --> 00:38:12.840 nineteen ninety eight. Yep, that's pretty awesome. It still works. Yeah, 532 00:38:12.840 --> 00:38:15.679 it does work, and the end it's just learning materials and not the 533 00:38:15.679 --> 00:38:20.639 ways about that. But right, wow, you wonder how much dynamic content 534 00:38:20.719 --> 00:38:23.119 they really need to spit out, although they do have that try it yourself 535 00:38:23.159 --> 00:38:28.280 thing right where you have you can like write some Java script on one side 536 00:38:28.280 --> 00:38:30.360 of the screen and run it and it runs in the other side. That's 537 00:38:30.400 --> 00:38:35.480 pretty cool. I got to think that's a security risk, though hopefully hopefully 538 00:38:35.480 --> 00:38:37.199 it jumps to something else when it does that. Nope, it's still asp 539 00:38:37.360 --> 00:38:43.920 wow. Wow wow, Okay, I'm excited. Really wow, really something. 540 00:38:44.360 --> 00:38:47.280 So all of those original semantic tags that h on'es h two's is that 541 00:38:47.280 --> 00:38:52.400 why that stuff's still relevant? Oh yeah, yeah, totally. I mean 542 00:38:52.119 --> 00:38:58.880 so, one of the talks that I've been giving recently is about creating accessible 543 00:38:58.920 --> 00:39:06.159 coding environments for programmers who have disabilities or need accommodations, and I talk about 544 00:39:06.400 --> 00:39:13.920 semantic HTML and that talk. So it's not only valuable for screen readers for 545 00:39:14.039 --> 00:39:19.639 generating tables of contents, for kind of giving you some of that built in 546 00:39:19.760 --> 00:39:22.119 like skimmability. So especially we're talking about people without a lot of design background, 547 00:39:22.280 --> 00:39:28.039 Like you don't have to decide what the font size is, you don't 548 00:39:28.199 --> 00:39:30.480 you can just use semitic HTML and it'll give a lot of that to you 549 00:39:30.559 --> 00:39:37.320 for free from what's baked into the browser. And also a lot of it 550 00:39:37.360 --> 00:39:39.480 has a direct impact on the user experience. So think about when you go 551 00:39:39.519 --> 00:39:44.559 to fill out a form and it has a you know, name, field 552 00:39:44.639 --> 00:39:49.760 phone number, field address, field and you're like auto field doesn't work right, 553 00:39:49.960 --> 00:39:54.039 that's because they didn't do the HTML. Like, it's very simple and 554 00:39:54.079 --> 00:39:58.920 there are universal standards for phone number, for last name, for first all 555 00:39:58.960 --> 00:40:00.599 of these, and that's what your brother is looking for. And it tries 556 00:40:00.599 --> 00:40:04.880 to attle fill And I get so mad now when I try to fill out 557 00:40:04.920 --> 00:40:07.519 a form and I have to fill out every single field by hand. Yeah, 558 00:40:07.760 --> 00:40:12.639 like because I know that. It's like it's such a simple fix that 559 00:40:12.719 --> 00:40:17.360 makes everyone's life better, and it's just and it's just not it's either not 560 00:40:17.440 --> 00:40:21.800 being aware of it or not taking the time. Well, and it's so 561 00:40:21.840 --> 00:40:24.719 simple, and aren't there online tools they'll just test your page for you too. 562 00:40:25.480 --> 00:40:28.800 Oh yeah, well, and there's I think it's actual might actually be 563 00:40:28.920 --> 00:40:34.280 W three c's W whatever W three schools. Yeah, W three schools. 564 00:40:34.320 --> 00:40:37.119 There's W three schools. There is a W three C. Like there's the 565 00:40:37.159 --> 00:40:39.400 easy checks at W three C, which is, yeah, you've just feeded 566 00:40:39.400 --> 00:40:45.119 a page. One of them has like this list of like all thirty attributes 567 00:40:45.119 --> 00:40:47.320 that you can use for inputs right to me. And it's just it's not 568 00:40:47.800 --> 00:40:53.000 hard and so it's it's not only an accessibility issue, it's also a lot 569 00:40:53.000 --> 00:40:57.880 of it can be a ux issue. And again it's a time saver because 570 00:40:57.920 --> 00:41:02.239 we if you, if you are consistently using semantic HTML, then when whatever 571 00:41:02.320 --> 00:41:06.679 library you're using her where you're doing it, it makes it a lot easier 572 00:41:06.679 --> 00:41:08.960 to be consistent with that too. Right, Wow, we get we're back 573 00:41:08.960 --> 00:41:13.880 at the accessibility conversation, Like going down that path will also guide you towards 574 00:41:13.920 --> 00:41:19.119 the semantic tags and that kind of thing. Mh, So, can I 575 00:41:19.840 --> 00:41:23.599 ask you a question about your talk because I looked at your slides and there's 576 00:41:23.679 --> 00:41:28.880 a it's like the third slide in this is a real website from nineteen ninety 577 00:41:28.880 --> 00:41:32.039 six. I really want you to share that picture with the world because that 578 00:41:32.760 --> 00:41:42.440 is a screenshot of Netscape Senator Ted Kennedy's website the Office of Senator Kennedy and 579 00:41:43.079 --> 00:41:52.679 just so many terrible things. The most terrible thing is that the font size 580 00:41:52.880 --> 00:41:57.559 and boldness don't seem to matter, Like everything on the page is buying for 581 00:41:57.599 --> 00:42:01.280 your attention all at the same time. You know, and that counter, 582 00:42:02.159 --> 00:42:06.039 Oh the counter is funny too, but but I just mean, like, 583 00:42:06.119 --> 00:42:10.719 you know, there's a linx and the links are all as I just as 584 00:42:10.760 --> 00:42:15.119 important as each other, like everything is jumping out at you. Look at 585 00:42:15.119 --> 00:42:16.400 me, No, look at me, no, look at me? Right, 586 00:42:17.159 --> 00:42:22.360 mm hmm, just so so bad it is and it isn't, And 587 00:42:22.400 --> 00:42:28.719 so I think this is this is where it really gets interesting because while I 588 00:42:28.760 --> 00:42:34.400 would argue it's overall very outdated design and we know a lot better now, 589 00:42:35.519 --> 00:42:39.840 there's also no surprises, right to take me a second to find what I'm 590 00:42:39.840 --> 00:42:45.440 looking for. But it's all pretty straightforward, right. There's there's no carousels, 591 00:42:45.559 --> 00:42:50.519 there's no you know, like information that only appears on hover. Right. 592 00:42:50.559 --> 00:42:55.280 Everything is very discoverable on this site. And so it's it's it's an 593 00:42:55.280 --> 00:43:00.719 interesting mix of like cringe and like not that bad. Yeah, you're right, 594 00:43:00.760 --> 00:43:08.199 I have seen worse. And you know, the original VB was was 595 00:43:08.280 --> 00:43:15.480 kind of like, well, it was great in many ways for forums applications, 596 00:43:15.519 --> 00:43:20.400 but it also let developers do just about anything design wise. And there 597 00:43:20.400 --> 00:43:25.679 are some Billy Hollis shows some screens from old you know, nineties Visual Basic 598 00:43:25.960 --> 00:43:31.519 applications that were actually real that we'll give you a headache, just that headache, 599 00:43:31.760 --> 00:43:37.119 horrible. Every inch of the screen is filled with some graphic or some 600 00:43:37.199 --> 00:43:43.199 text or something because white space is waste. Oh yeah, oh my god, 601 00:43:43.239 --> 00:43:45.719 if you were frames when there'd be like a bottom frame and a side 602 00:43:45.760 --> 00:43:54.679 frame and all their own scrolls and yeah yeah. Do we have a conversation 603 00:43:54.760 --> 00:44:00.880 about navigation between pages and things like what's the right way these days to build 604 00:44:01.320 --> 00:44:07.719 navigation within page? I would say, big things to think about with navigation 605 00:44:07.119 --> 00:44:15.440 are I think, again, really being judicious about what you make accessible in 606 00:44:15.599 --> 00:44:19.599 like a you know, like if you have a have a drop down navigation 607 00:44:19.719 --> 00:44:22.800 series, Like I've gone to websites that have like fifty items in there and 608 00:44:22.800 --> 00:44:25.400 that's just useless. I think about trying to use it on a phone. 609 00:44:25.440 --> 00:44:30.199 It's so really being judicious with that progressive disclosure again, right of okay, 610 00:44:30.280 --> 00:44:34.239 like what are our high level ones? How we put it? And I 611 00:44:34.280 --> 00:44:38.320 also really like sort of I don't know what you would call it, but 612 00:44:38.400 --> 00:44:44.760 like like double dipping, right, so not just you know, if there's 613 00:44:44.800 --> 00:44:50.519 a page that you know people are going to want to go to and it's 614 00:44:50.559 --> 00:44:52.800 it's but it's not really to the level of like front and center on the 615 00:44:52.800 --> 00:44:57.239 homepage, you know, link to it from wherever it's appropriate to link to 616 00:44:57.239 --> 00:44:59.920 it, right, make it easy for people to find what they're looking for. 617 00:45:00.400 --> 00:45:02.639 And I think sometimes you're ran into like, oh, well, you 618 00:45:02.639 --> 00:45:06.039 know you get here by going through these three pages, and so okay, 619 00:45:06.079 --> 00:45:09.239 but I'm on this page that reference is that? Like why why would't you 620 00:45:09.280 --> 00:45:16.360 also give me access right right right? And you mentioned double dipping. That 621 00:45:16.400 --> 00:45:21.559 means like putting a link to something important at the top and then some text 622 00:45:21.639 --> 00:45:24.440 and a link the same link at the bottom right, Well that which one 623 00:45:24.480 --> 00:45:29.039 should I click? I think? Just yeah, making it, I think 624 00:45:29.079 --> 00:45:32.480 making it not not as much putting putting them both on the same page, 625 00:45:32.519 --> 00:45:37.719 but being able to access information from multiple places within a site. So not 626 00:45:37.800 --> 00:45:45.199 treating it like I see you know it's it's not like you're reading a book 627 00:45:45.440 --> 00:45:49.840 where you don't want to repeat chapters. It's more like you're reading a table 628 00:45:49.880 --> 00:45:52.320 of or I don't don't know what can analogy is failing me. Yeah, 629 00:45:53.320 --> 00:45:55.199 no, no, I get it, I get it. You. You 630 00:45:55.199 --> 00:46:00.679 you want to have one place where you link to a page, not millions 631 00:46:00.679 --> 00:46:05.719 of places, and that should be the main Navigation means, whether it's a 632 00:46:05.760 --> 00:46:09.679 toolbar or a sidebar or a drop down menu or whatever. Yeah, just 633 00:46:09.719 --> 00:46:15.840 making it easy to find what you're looking for and being very explicit with what 634 00:46:16.400 --> 00:46:22.599 clicking anything is going to do. So you know, there's nothing more frustrating 635 00:46:22.639 --> 00:46:24.039 than being like, oh, this must be the page I want and then 636 00:46:24.039 --> 00:46:29.280 you go there and it's not, and there's no way back start right, 637 00:46:29.719 --> 00:46:34.920 Yes, yes, you're pushing a hot button for me. I get. 638 00:46:35.639 --> 00:46:40.519 I have this experience daily, you know, find what you want. It's 639 00:46:40.559 --> 00:46:45.199 a little game we play. M How do we feel about the hamburger menu? 640 00:46:45.239 --> 00:46:50.760 Because is that really still a thing? Like? Is that just this 641 00:46:50.800 --> 00:46:53.639 is a required question when you come on dot net rock, so that we're 642 00:46:53.679 --> 00:46:59.800 going to ask you about the hamburger menu. Yeah, issues with the hamburger 643 00:46:59.840 --> 00:47:05.800 men you but I do have issues with icon usage generally, right, but 644 00:47:05.920 --> 00:47:09.960 yeah, because it's so specific, right, like, does the hamburger man 645 00:47:10.039 --> 00:47:13.960 you transcend that? Does everybody know what a hamburgerman you have icon is? 646 00:47:14.239 --> 00:47:17.880 Yeah? I So I would argue that every icon should have a label, 647 00:47:19.519 --> 00:47:22.480 even ones that we consider universal, because universal is still within the context of 648 00:47:22.519 --> 00:47:29.119 a culture or a language or you know, income bracket even y. And 649 00:47:29.199 --> 00:47:34.400 so my personal preference is the hamburger icon with the word menu. And so 650 00:47:34.519 --> 00:47:40.239 then you're just really reinforcing what's going on when we first started talking to people 651 00:47:40.320 --> 00:47:45.639 about design and the Hamburger menu is starting to become popular, most of the 652 00:47:45.639 --> 00:47:47.199 people that we interview were like, oh, no, no, the Hamburger 653 00:47:47.199 --> 00:47:51.079 man is terrible, don't use that. And then of course it got so 654 00:47:51.239 --> 00:47:53.880 popular, and I think Richard used the word transcend right. It kind of 655 00:47:53.920 --> 00:48:00.280 transcends the rule of iconography or whatever the rules are. And it's now so 656 00:48:02.480 --> 00:48:08.760 ubiquitous and everybody knows what it means. But within the popular culture and the 657 00:48:08.800 --> 00:48:14.000 people who are using computers today, they might not tomorrow. Well, I 658 00:48:14.039 --> 00:48:16.159 think about how we still use There are some places that have a floppy disk, 659 00:48:16.239 --> 00:48:27.079 y con or even an envelope for email, because with envelopes, an 660 00:48:27.199 --> 00:48:30.320 envelope, I was just I was just looking at a page where they had 661 00:48:30.320 --> 00:48:37.480 the downward carrot, which implies on menu pops from here, But then when 662 00:48:37.480 --> 00:48:40.840 you hover over it, it actually flips to the upward carrot and things change. 663 00:48:42.960 --> 00:48:45.199 Yes, I don't know what this does, and now I feel less 664 00:48:45.400 --> 00:48:50.360 like I know what it does, like I did something. I don't know 665 00:48:50.400 --> 00:48:52.920 what I did. All you made me do is feel like I should boom 666 00:48:52.920 --> 00:48:57.960 my mouse away from you. This is my issue with toggles, it's the 667 00:48:58.000 --> 00:49:00.800 same thing. Unless they have labels on the two sides of the little like 668 00:49:00.880 --> 00:49:06.000 slider toggle. I never know if it's turned off or on, especially if 669 00:49:06.039 --> 00:49:08.880 it's not like and I have I have full color vision, you know, 670 00:49:08.960 --> 00:49:14.800 and don't have any vision issues, so like sometimes it'll be to me obviously 671 00:49:14.840 --> 00:49:17.119 disabled if it's like grade out. Not everyone can see that, first of 672 00:49:17.159 --> 00:49:21.199 all. But secondly, like sometimes it's like okay, when it's on, 673 00:49:21.360 --> 00:49:25.320 it's green. When it's off, it's purple, and it's like what And 674 00:49:25.360 --> 00:49:28.880 then you end up having to turn it off and on several times to try 675 00:49:28.920 --> 00:49:30.639 and discern like which is the on state and which is the off state? 676 00:49:30.679 --> 00:49:35.559 And so this is where like you know, again like labels on everything, 677 00:49:35.760 --> 00:49:40.480 yep, just make it. Make it, make it like overly obvious what 678 00:49:40.800 --> 00:49:45.079 is happening? Right, Yeah, If you don't have a label that represents 679 00:49:45.119 --> 00:49:49.239 the current state of it, you know, you might see you might think 680 00:49:49.320 --> 00:49:52.199 that when it says off that it's off or do you press it to make 681 00:49:52.239 --> 00:49:58.480 it off, like it's not clear, m yeah, or when things automatically 682 00:49:58.559 --> 00:50:04.039 save but don't tell you it's automatically saving, right, and there's no save 683 00:50:04.119 --> 00:50:06.519 button and so you open it on like a new tab, just to make 684 00:50:06.559 --> 00:50:08.880 sure it actually is persisting. Yeah, sorry if you if you hit a 685 00:50:08.880 --> 00:50:15.119 save button and there's no feedback whatsoever? What? Yeah? Nothing? I 686 00:50:15.280 --> 00:50:19.199 did it save? Yeah? Did it not? I don't know. Thanks 687 00:50:19.199 --> 00:50:24.159 for telling me we should do regular bitch sessions about UI because I have a 688 00:50:24.320 --> 00:50:29.239 million complaints. You know, we should probably do like we could do videos 689 00:50:29.320 --> 00:50:35.679 of of you know, websites that suck and why my favorite pet peeve. 690 00:50:35.800 --> 00:50:39.320 I have a hyphenated last name, and I have like thirty screenshots in a 691 00:50:39.360 --> 00:50:45.039 folder on my desktop of forms that will not accept a hyphen in a last 692 00:50:45.119 --> 00:50:49.440 name. You're not allowed to have a hyphen your last name, no asid. 693 00:50:49.440 --> 00:50:52.239 I talked from a woman whose last name was O'Neill. I think it 694 00:50:52.280 --> 00:50:54.639 was O'Neill. And did She started out her talk with the Internet hates the 695 00:50:54.679 --> 00:51:02.320 Irish, the single of pop fee. Damn, you are doomed. Do 696 00:51:02.400 --> 00:51:06.519 you have to escape your own? So? I have another pet peep, 697 00:51:06.960 --> 00:51:10.559 a pet peeve. I have one of many, and you'll appreciate this because 698 00:51:10.559 --> 00:51:17.519 you have a cybersecurity firm or a security firm is when password has a maximum 699 00:51:17.679 --> 00:51:22.519 like yes, and it's usually nine or ten. What are you thinking? 700 00:51:22.760 --> 00:51:27.239 However, they make you jump through all these hoops of you know, characters 701 00:51:27.239 --> 00:51:30.079 and all this stuff, but it can only be ten characters. Drives a 702 00:51:30.159 --> 00:51:34.199 wall because the best thing you can do is a long password. That's right, 703 00:51:34.239 --> 00:51:37.199 Like even if it's even if it's English, it's a sentence, it's 704 00:51:37.199 --> 00:51:42.559 fine. That's still way better than a short, complicated one. I am 705 00:51:42.599 --> 00:51:47.079 I rate. I have written angry emails about this. Yeah, yeah, 706 00:51:47.199 --> 00:51:53.880 it's just a it's a that's an artifact of the past that now passwords should 707 00:51:53.880 --> 00:52:00.880 be phrases instead of short things that you can possibly remember by placing a's with 708 00:52:00.960 --> 00:52:07.239 that and like that. Password managers, I don't know any of my passwords 709 00:52:07.320 --> 00:52:10.119 exactly, no idea. I don't want to know. I never want to 710 00:52:10.159 --> 00:52:13.920 know again. But you still run into that problem when you have to create 711 00:52:13.920 --> 00:52:15.440 a new password. You go to your password manager, you paced a new 712 00:52:15.480 --> 00:52:19.960 password in Oh that's too long. Well, it would be nice if you 713 00:52:20.079 --> 00:52:22.280 told you that's not the message he gives you. Yeah, what it says 714 00:52:22.440 --> 00:52:25.119 is minimum make characters. These are special characters you're allowed. It's like, 715 00:52:25.159 --> 00:52:29.760 I am compliant with all of these things. Yea. And sometimes it doesn't 716 00:52:29.800 --> 00:52:31.960 tell you have you all run into this where you fill out your password and 717 00:52:32.000 --> 00:52:37.360 it just says password format is incorrect, and it won't tell you why some 718 00:52:37.519 --> 00:52:45.039 developer somewhere needs to be slapped. New people suck. Honestly, she's she's 719 00:52:45.679 --> 00:52:49.679 she's got it down now, she's like some stupid developer. That's all the 720 00:52:49.760 --> 00:52:58.000 developer's fault, all right, how do we know? So if you want 721 00:52:58.039 --> 00:53:02.320 to do anything, make sure you're write a real password requirements description, including 722 00:53:02.360 --> 00:53:07.679 maximum length, not just minimum like no maximum life. That's what I say. 723 00:53:07.719 --> 00:53:09.400 If you're gonna have a maximum length, it must be something like make 724 00:53:09.440 --> 00:53:14.119 the maximum LIANK sixty and thirty six. There you go, just because it'll 725 00:53:14.159 --> 00:53:17.440 give us a giggle, right, at least it'll give because you're actually story 726 00:53:17.440 --> 00:53:21.360 the past word. You already committed this in any way, So don't do 727 00:53:21.440 --> 00:53:24.320 that. But meantime, okay, where are we going to go? How 728 00:53:24.320 --> 00:53:28.239 are we going to wrap this up? What's next for you? What are 729 00:53:28.239 --> 00:53:34.239 you doing after this? After this talk right here? Like today or just 730 00:53:35.119 --> 00:53:37.639 yeah no, what's what's next on your to do list? Next? On 731 00:53:37.800 --> 00:53:43.239 my to do list? There's always so many things on my to do list. 732 00:53:43.960 --> 00:53:46.599 I actually just came off an on call rotation, so honestly, sleep 733 00:53:46.719 --> 00:53:51.480 is on my to do list. Nice, so it was an active one. 734 00:53:52.199 --> 00:53:57.320 Oh, we get a couple of issues, were you Yeah, okay, 735 00:53:57.840 --> 00:54:00.400 we'll have a good sleep and you know, of course, if you 736 00:54:00.480 --> 00:54:04.400 have anything more to say on the topic, get in touch with us and 737 00:54:04.440 --> 00:54:06.840 we'll have you back on. Yeah, thanks for having me. It was 738 00:54:06.960 --> 00:54:08.239 one to chat. Great to talk to you. It was great fun. 739 00:54:08.519 --> 00:54:12.760 All right, bye bye and we'll talk to you next time on dot net 740 00:54:12.840 --> 00:54:37.239 rocks. Dot net Rocks is brought to you by Franklin's Net and produced by 741 00:54:37.360 --> 00:54:43.239 Pop Studios, a full service audio, video and post production facility located physically 742 00:54:43.360 --> 00:54:47.280 in New London, Connecticut, and of course in the cloud online at pwop 743 00:54:47.519 --> 00:54:52.320 dot com. Visit our website at d O T N E t R O 744 00:54:52.519 --> 00:54:57.760 c k S dot com for RSS feeds, downloads, mobile apps, comments, 745 00:54:58.119 --> 00:55:01.199 and access to the full archives going back to show number one, recorded 746 00:55:01.239 --> 00:55:06.119 in September two thousand and two. And make sure you check out our sponsors. 747 00:55:06.320 --> 00:55:08.960 They keep us in business. Now go write some code. See you 748 00:55:09.039 --> 00:55:20.480 next time. You got jads, middle vans do the home. Then I'm Texes