WEBVTT 1 00:00:27.440 --> 00:00:31.199 Welcome back to the Path Went Chile for part two of our series about the 2 00:00:31.280 --> 00:00:34.880 murder of Lester Garnier. Robin, do you want to catch everyone up on 3 00:00:34.960 --> 00:00:39.399 what we talked about in our previous episode. Well, this case involves the 4 00:00:39.439 --> 00:00:43.560 murder of a police officer. It's thirty year old Lester Garnier, who worked 5 00:00:43.560 --> 00:00:47.880 as a vice top for the San Francisco PD and he was found shot to 6 00:00:47.920 --> 00:00:52.799 death inside his car at a shopping center parking lot in the town of Walnut 7 00:00:52.799 --> 00:00:56.479 Creek, which is just outside San Francisco. But the weird thing is is 8 00:00:56.520 --> 00:00:59.719 that no one knows what Lester was doing there, because he was planning to 9 00:00:59.719 --> 00:01:02.560 go out for a movie with his best friend but then called him up and 10 00:01:02.600 --> 00:01:04.760 said that he couldn't come because he was running late. And he had also 11 00:01:04.799 --> 00:01:08.599 received two phone calls at his house that his parents witnessed, and they said 12 00:01:08.640 --> 00:01:11.799 that one of the callers was a woman. So it seems apparent that for 13 00:01:11.879 --> 00:01:17.519 some reason, Lester was asked to come meet someone at that shopping center parking 14 00:01:17.560 --> 00:01:21.599 lot and wound up being shot to death. We had two witnesses who reported 15 00:01:21.599 --> 00:01:25.480 seeing two blonde women at the scene, one of whom was climbing out of 16 00:01:25.519 --> 00:01:29.959 Lester's car, but they could not be identified, and there was speculation that 17 00:01:30.200 --> 00:01:34.000 his murder might have been involved with a recent bust of a sex trafficking ring, 18 00:01:34.040 --> 00:01:38.120 where a bunch of people, including a city mayoral candidate and a San 19 00:01:38.200 --> 00:01:44.840 Francisco police officer, were busted for statutory rape for their actions against some underage 20 00:01:45.359 --> 00:01:48.920 sex workers, though neither of them ever saw prison time. They looked at 21 00:01:48.920 --> 00:01:52.719 the possibility that Lester's murder could have been connected to this bust, but they 22 00:01:52.719 --> 00:01:57.480 couldn't find any tangible connection, and the case remained cold for another two decades 23 00:01:57.560 --> 00:02:00.200 until it was announced in two thousand and eight that a fingerprint found on the 24 00:02:00.200 --> 00:02:05.640 windshield of Lestra's car had been matched to a Scottish national named Catherine Koons. 25 00:02:06.359 --> 00:02:08.719 She did have a criminal history. She had been accused of trying to hire 26 00:02:08.759 --> 00:02:12.960 two people to murder her husband, though she wound up being acquitted at her 27 00:02:13.000 --> 00:02:16.159 trial. She also had issues with crack cocaine and had been arrested a few 28 00:02:16.199 --> 00:02:21.360 times for sex work, but they just could not find any real connection between 29 00:02:21.400 --> 00:02:24.560 her and Lester Garnie, even though she had been living in California during the 30 00:02:24.639 --> 00:02:30.599 nineteen eighties. After she finished serving a sense for violating her probation, she 31 00:02:30.719 --> 00:02:35.759 was deported back to her native Scotland, but investigators declined to file charges against 32 00:02:35.759 --> 00:02:38.840 her because even though her fingerprint was found on the windshield, they just cannot 33 00:02:38.879 --> 00:02:43.759 figure out a motive. They couldn't actually prove that she was the one who 34 00:02:43.840 --> 00:02:46.360 pulled the trigger which killed Lester, So as of right now, she's believed 35 00:02:46.400 --> 00:02:50.960 to still be in Europe somewhere, and this case has remained unsolved for over 36 00:02:51.080 --> 00:02:54.560 thirty five years now. During the intro to our last episode, I mentioned 37 00:02:54.599 --> 00:02:58.759 that when I first covered this case on the Trail Went Cold five years ago, 38 00:02:59.199 --> 00:03:01.319 the whole thing turned out to be a much bigger rabbit hole than expected, 39 00:03:01.560 --> 00:03:06.360 and I believe it's one of the more underrated cases featured on Unsolved Mysteries. 40 00:03:07.159 --> 00:03:08.960 I hate to say this, but I think the main reason the Unsolved 41 00:03:09.039 --> 00:03:13.919 Mystery segment never really stuck with me for a long time is because, well, 42 00:03:14.360 --> 00:03:17.719 it's a tad cheesy. Instead of their usual creepy music score over the 43 00:03:17.759 --> 00:03:23.439 reenactments, the segment plays saxophone music, which often makes this feel like one 44 00:03:23.439 --> 00:03:27.960 of those erotic late night movies you'd watch on cinemax during the eighties and nineties 45 00:03:28.199 --> 00:03:32.400 rather than an unsolved mysteries episode, But that's a minor nitpick. Lester's murder 46 00:03:32.400 --> 00:03:36.439 got quite a bit of media coverage in the Bay Area, and for two 47 00:03:36.560 --> 00:03:39.080 decades there was a lot of speculation that his death was the result of a 48 00:03:39.120 --> 00:03:44.479 cover up and he was killed because he had stumbled onto something big involving corrupt 49 00:03:44.479 --> 00:03:47.520 cops and city officials. But after it was announced that the sole piece of 50 00:03:47.520 --> 00:03:53.360 physical evidence from the murder scene was linked to this Scottish national, Catherine Koons, 51 00:03:53.800 --> 00:03:57.199 it just through the whole case for a loop. We know that Coons 52 00:03:57.280 --> 00:04:00.199 lived in Concord at the time the murder took place, was involved in drugs 53 00:04:00.240 --> 00:04:03.919 and sex work, but other than that, there's just nothing to connect her 54 00:04:04.000 --> 00:04:10.360 to Lester Garnier. She later became embroiled in an unrelated murder for higher plot 55 00:04:10.400 --> 00:04:14.960 involving her husband, but that crime sounded more personal in nature and a far 56 00:04:15.080 --> 00:04:18.360 cry from killing a police officer. The only thing we know for certain is 57 00:04:18.360 --> 00:04:23.759 that Koot somehow had to be involved in Lester's murder, because I can't think 58 00:04:23.800 --> 00:04:27.360 of an innocent explanation for why her fingerprint would be on the window of his 59 00:04:27.480 --> 00:04:30.600 corvette, but it's still unclear if she was the one who personally pulled the 60 00:04:30.639 --> 00:04:34.720 trigger and shot Lester, as there's a lot to suggest that she wasn't alone 61 00:04:34.759 --> 00:04:40.279 on this. Since Lester was an undercover vice officer and Kootz was a sex 62 00:04:40.319 --> 00:04:44.680 worker during this time period, the most logical explanation would seem to be that 63 00:04:44.759 --> 00:04:48.079 he was shot to death while attempting a bus which went horribly wrong. However, 64 00:04:48.120 --> 00:04:53.240 the whole thing seems a lot more complicated than that. I would think 65 00:04:53.279 --> 00:04:58.439 that if Koontz was involved in a sex working group, if she was a 66 00:04:58.480 --> 00:05:00.040 part of a brothel that he had busted, or if he had been part 67 00:05:00.079 --> 00:05:04.199 of a group of women that had been busted by him, that one of 68 00:05:04.240 --> 00:05:09.680 those women. Remember, he was known by the women he arrested as being 69 00:05:09.879 --> 00:05:15.480 kind and charming and very respectful, and had actually been praised for the fact 70 00:05:15.519 --> 00:05:18.800 that citizens and those he arrested did not complain about him, they actually praised 71 00:05:18.879 --> 00:05:24.959 him. I feel like someone if they were aware of her actions or whoever 72 00:05:25.079 --> 00:05:30.199 did kill Lester, I feel like that community you still might have had somebody 73 00:05:30.240 --> 00:05:34.399 come forward and share information had it been something that they were aware of right 74 00:05:34.439 --> 00:05:39.480 if it was someone within their group that had murdered him in revenge, because 75 00:05:39.879 --> 00:05:43.560 there was a love of him, in respect for him, in his position, 76 00:05:43.680 --> 00:05:47.360 even amongst those he was getting in trouble just to play devil's advocate. 77 00:05:47.920 --> 00:05:54.839 It is possible that maybe she was giving information to him at an earlier time 78 00:05:55.000 --> 00:05:59.160 and she leaned over and touched that window, because like DNA, unless that 79 00:05:59.199 --> 00:06:02.519 fingerprint is literally in blood, you don't know when it was put there. 80 00:06:02.800 --> 00:06:06.160 We don't know how frequently he washed his vehicle, And just because there was 81 00:06:06.199 --> 00:06:11.800 a blonde woman who resembled her doesn't mean that it was necessarily Coons. It 82 00:06:11.839 --> 00:06:15.680 could have been another blonde woman who had a similar description. We know how 83 00:06:15.720 --> 00:06:19.560 problematic eyewitness identification is. That's not to say that it was innocent, but 84 00:06:19.600 --> 00:06:24.000 it's to say that there's a potential that it could be. Oh, there 85 00:06:24.040 --> 00:06:27.040 absolutely is a potential that could be. It makes sense when you talk about 86 00:06:27.079 --> 00:06:30.160 it's on the top of his car. It's almost as if you pulled up 87 00:06:30.199 --> 00:06:30.959 you said, hey, Coons, get over here, and she goes, 88 00:06:31.040 --> 00:06:33.759 yeah, what do you want, Lester, And she like leans over and 89 00:06:33.759 --> 00:06:36.680 she's talking to him, and then he gets any information he wants from her 90 00:06:36.720 --> 00:06:41.720 and he drives off. That's an easy explanation for why her fingerprint could be 91 00:06:41.800 --> 00:06:46.040 there. Also, she could have been standing there and killed him or been 92 00:06:46.079 --> 00:06:49.040 with someone else who killed him. So it's either or. Yes, she 93 00:06:49.160 --> 00:06:54.879 could have been there, but there's no way with just that fingerprint, like 94 00:06:54.920 --> 00:06:58.920 you said you was, it wasn't a fingerprint in blood, So we don't 95 00:06:58.959 --> 00:07:00.639 know when that was placed there. We just know she was in contact with 96 00:07:00.720 --> 00:07:05.560 him at some point. And that's the thing is, she was never considered 97 00:07:05.560 --> 00:07:10.319 to be a suspect until the fingerprint match. I've seen nothing to indicate that 98 00:07:10.319 --> 00:07:14.439 they got her name at all during the original investigation. And like you said, 99 00:07:14.800 --> 00:07:18.040 Lester was a very well liked person among all the local sex workers. 100 00:07:18.360 --> 00:07:23.480 And you think that if anyone had any information about how this other woman named 101 00:07:23.560 --> 00:07:27.519 Catherine Koontz had a grudge or a vendetta against him, that one of these 102 00:07:27.519 --> 00:07:30.680 people would have told the police. But it doesn't sound like her name was 103 00:07:30.680 --> 00:07:34.560 brought up at all until they got the fingerprint match. But before we delve 104 00:07:34.560 --> 00:07:40.680 into this case any further, we have to discuss Lester himself. During our 105 00:07:40.720 --> 00:07:45.560 research, we've read nothing but glowing things about Lester as both a police officer 106 00:07:45.720 --> 00:07:48.040 and as a person, and it seems like no one had a bad word 107 00:07:48.079 --> 00:07:53.360 to say about him. He was a very devoted son who moved his parents 108 00:07:53.399 --> 00:07:56.879 in with him once he got the money to purchase a nice house. He 109 00:07:57.000 --> 00:08:01.480 was apparently so likable that many of the sex workers year rested couldn't even bring 110 00:08:01.519 --> 00:08:05.959 themselves to hate him. Lester's record during his eight year police career seems spotless, 111 00:08:07.319 --> 00:08:11.199 and it doesn't sound like the investigation into his death was able to uncover 112 00:08:11.279 --> 00:08:16.279 anything suspicious in his background. Given that he was a police officer who had 113 00:08:16.279 --> 00:08:20.480 his own house, swimming pool, and corvette, and was also using a 114 00:08:20.519 --> 00:08:24.240 car phone during an era where that type of thing was in common, it 115 00:08:24.279 --> 00:08:28.240 would be tempting to believe that Lester had to be involved in something dirty, 116 00:08:28.680 --> 00:08:31.039 but he was apparently able to afford all that stuff on his own by working 117 00:08:31.159 --> 00:08:37.240 multiple jobs. I know they found evidence that Lester may have been frequenting massage 118 00:08:37.279 --> 00:08:41.639 parlors in his off hours, but that's hardly damning, and again, he 119 00:08:41.720 --> 00:08:46.519 may have simply been checking out these places as research for a future undercover job. 120 00:08:46.960 --> 00:08:50.279 So it is compelling to brainstorm a scenario where Lester is the ultimate straight 121 00:08:50.360 --> 00:08:56.080 arrow crop who's attempting to fight back against corruption in his department, but gets 122 00:08:56.120 --> 00:09:00.240 in way over his head and winds up being killed for it. At the 123 00:09:00.279 --> 00:09:05.240 outset, the Walnut Creek Police Department apparently had these same thoughts, which is 124 00:09:05.279 --> 00:09:09.879 why they did not want the San Francisco PD assisting them with their investigation into 125 00:09:09.919 --> 00:09:13.879 the murder, given that one of their own was killed. Some members of 126 00:09:13.919 --> 00:09:18.159 the SFPD believe the higher apps could have pushed much harder to resolve these jurisdictional 127 00:09:18.200 --> 00:09:22.840 issues and get them involved in the investigation, which is why they couldn't help, 128 00:09:22.879 --> 00:09:26.559 but speculate that someone in power didn't want the crime to be solved. 129 00:09:28.200 --> 00:09:31.960 This isn't meant to tear apart the job the Walnut Creek PD did on the 130 00:09:31.000 --> 00:09:35.919 case, as they didn't have a lot of evidence to work with and probably 131 00:09:35.960 --> 00:09:39.600 did the best they could given the circumstances. But Walnut Creek was an affluent 132 00:09:39.679 --> 00:09:43.799 city which usually only had to deal with an average of one murder per year 133 00:09:43.840 --> 00:09:50.240 at that time, and the SFPD had some seasoned homicide investigators who might have 134 00:09:50.279 --> 00:09:54.360 been able to contribute something. I definitely think it's valid the concerns that Walnut 135 00:09:54.399 --> 00:10:00.399 Creek PD had. You have a vice officer who is part of of an 136 00:10:00.480 --> 00:10:07.799 organization that just brought down some pretty nefarious acts that included other fellow police officers. 137 00:10:07.720 --> 00:10:11.919 Every police department has the bad eggs, just like any other career does. 138 00:10:13.279 --> 00:10:18.799 And so when you're talking about an officer who's involved in the high profile 139 00:10:18.919 --> 00:10:24.960 cases that he's doing undercover work that he's possibly contributed to busts that involve fellow 140 00:10:24.960 --> 00:10:28.799 officers, I can see the weariness of the Walnut Police Department, Walnut Creek 141 00:10:28.799 --> 00:10:33.279 Police Department, But if they thought at all they were over their head, 142 00:10:33.559 --> 00:10:39.000 you have to reach out for other resources. I don't know what else they 143 00:10:39.000 --> 00:10:41.879 could have helped with. I think it is powerful to say, what did 144 00:10:41.919 --> 00:10:45.120 we know at the time. You had an eyewitness who was a carpet layer 145 00:10:45.200 --> 00:10:48.240 who several days after the Fourth of July says, I didn't pay attention to 146 00:10:48.279 --> 00:10:52.759 these loud noises because I figured it was just fireworks. Well, he didn't 147 00:10:52.759 --> 00:10:56.960 get a very good look. He saw two blonde women, and unfortunately that 148 00:10:58.120 --> 00:11:03.639 is a very large percentage of the population being blonde women in their twenties and 149 00:11:03.679 --> 00:11:09.000 thirties. He wasn't able to provide much detail the cars, very very basic 150 00:11:09.080 --> 00:11:13.080 descriptions that he was able to give. And so because of that, like 151 00:11:13.159 --> 00:11:16.120 you said, what else was there to know at the time? Are we 152 00:11:16.200 --> 00:11:22.240 missing surveillance cameras? Were those available back in the late eighties in that area? 153 00:11:22.000 --> 00:11:28.080 Are we missing information from other eyewitnesses that were simply never asked and might 154 00:11:28.080 --> 00:11:30.879 not have known what they saw? So, yes, there could have been 155 00:11:30.919 --> 00:11:33.559 things that were missed, But this is one of those cases where there's a 156 00:11:33.600 --> 00:11:37.519 massive question mark of we just don't have much of anything to go on. 157 00:11:39.039 --> 00:11:43.320 As you know, Lestern's murder came on the heels of major bust of a 158 00:11:43.360 --> 00:11:48.120 brothel housing a teenage sex trafficking ring, which led to the indictment of several 159 00:11:48.159 --> 00:11:54.159 people, including SFPD officer Patrick Miyagishima and political figure Roger Boas. However, 160 00:11:54.240 --> 00:11:58.919 they found nothing to tie these two events together, and I'm inclined to think 161 00:11:58.960 --> 00:12:03.159 they're not related. If Lester played a significant role in the sting operation and 162 00:12:03.279 --> 00:12:07.000 personally arrested some of the people involved, that would be one thing, But 163 00:12:07.080 --> 00:12:09.720 it doesn't sound like his role was anything more than performing a stakeout on the 164 00:12:09.720 --> 00:12:15.240 brothel on a couple of occasions. At best, Lester was a pretty minor 165 00:12:15.279 --> 00:12:18.799 figure in this investigation, and I don't see why anyone would specifically target him 166 00:12:18.799 --> 00:12:24.759 for retribution. I know that Lester's partner, Chuck Lofgren, thought their cover 167 00:12:24.919 --> 00:12:28.399 was blown during their surveillance in the brothel, but if that's the case, 168 00:12:28.840 --> 00:12:31.480 why would they kill Lester and not Chuck. What would be the point of 169 00:12:31.559 --> 00:12:35.639 killing a vice cop who really didn't do anything more than watch some buildings for 170 00:12:35.639 --> 00:12:39.840 a few days. It is interesting that the head of this sex trafficking ring, 171 00:12:39.919 --> 00:12:45.639 Patrick Roberts, was apprehended in Oklahoma, only one day before Lester was 172 00:12:45.759 --> 00:12:48.799 killed, but I think that's probably nothing more than the coincidence. And as 173 00:12:48.840 --> 00:12:54.720 for Patrick Miyakishima, there really is no evidence that he and Lester even knew 174 00:12:54.759 --> 00:12:58.639 each other, and if the closest connection between them is some unsubstantiated rumors that 175 00:12:58.679 --> 00:13:03.279 the two men once attended the same stag party together years beforehand, then that's 176 00:13:03.320 --> 00:13:07.840 pretty thin. I mean, I don't completely discount the possibility that Lester may 177 00:13:07.840 --> 00:13:11.600 have stumbled upon something on his job which put his life at risk, but 178 00:13:11.679 --> 00:13:16.600 I don't think it had anything to do with this particular case. And when 179 00:13:16.639 --> 00:13:20.120 you think about the fact that Patrick was a fellow police officer and at one 180 00:13:20.120 --> 00:13:26.639 point was a security guard in a same area where Lester worked, you have 181 00:13:26.720 --> 00:13:30.200 to remember that people who are in security and law enforcement, they tend to 182 00:13:30.200 --> 00:13:35.000 have the same schedules. They tend to really stick close to, like circles, 183 00:13:35.080 --> 00:13:37.360 and so yeah, of course they attended a similar party, they ran 184 00:13:37.639 --> 00:13:41.120 in similar social groups, and so I don't find that to be ironic. 185 00:13:41.799 --> 00:13:46.320 The one thing that really throws me for a loop is that he gets these 186 00:13:46.360 --> 00:13:50.559 calls, one of them is a female, and he cancels the plans with 187 00:13:50.600 --> 00:13:54.360 his friend, drives out and parks in a manner that's similar to the way 188 00:13:54.399 --> 00:13:58.039 that police officers are trained to park, so that you know they're not backed 189 00:13:58.080 --> 00:14:01.600 into an area where people can't see them. And he does not have either 190 00:14:01.720 --> 00:14:07.480 of his weapons with him. To me, that indicates this idea that he 191 00:14:07.679 --> 00:14:11.039 felt ultimately safe, And for someone who is a vice officer, even when 192 00:14:11.039 --> 00:14:15.639 he's off duty, I feel like there would be the heightened sense of I 193 00:14:15.720 --> 00:14:18.480 never know, I never know about people I don't know who could approach us. 194 00:14:18.759 --> 00:14:22.080 But he did not have any weapon on him. To me, that 195 00:14:22.279 --> 00:14:26.720 screamed volumes and is one of the biggest reasons that I'm saying, was he 196 00:14:26.759 --> 00:14:30.440 trying to meet up with someone involved in one of his cases, because if 197 00:14:30.480 --> 00:14:33.679 he was, I just don't think someone trained in that series about their job 198 00:14:33.720 --> 00:14:37.600 would go without a service weapon. And they said that even when he was 199 00:14:37.679 --> 00:14:41.360 off duty, he would carry one of his guns, like even if he 200 00:14:41.399 --> 00:14:43.200 was just going out to the movies or something, he would just carry it 201 00:14:43.240 --> 00:14:48.240 on them instinctually. So it makes you wonder did he just simply forget his 202 00:14:48.320 --> 00:14:52.759 gun or did he have reasons for not bringing you with them. The one 203 00:14:52.799 --> 00:14:56.360 thing which seemed to make Lester's family suspicious is that the police found a surveillance 204 00:14:56.480 --> 00:15:01.159 videotape in his home office following his death, and they've never disclosed its contents. 205 00:15:01.720 --> 00:15:05.360 Well, it is a bit odd that Lester would be keeping a tape 206 00:15:05.399 --> 00:15:09.200 like that in his house. It's possible the police kept quiet about what was 207 00:15:09.240 --> 00:15:13.519 on it because it contained sensitive information about an ongoing investigation which they did not 208 00:15:13.600 --> 00:15:18.759 want to jeopardize. This doesn't necessarily mean Lester was killed because he had secretly 209 00:15:18.799 --> 00:15:22.519 filmed something which was going to blow the lid off corruption. Of course, 210 00:15:22.559 --> 00:15:26.600 we also have the business from nineteen ninety eight, where former vice cop Vincent 211 00:15:26.679 --> 00:15:31.960 Repetto filed a lawsuit against a fellow officer who allegedly told people that Repetto had 212 00:15:33.039 --> 00:15:37.720 murdered Lester. It doesn't sound like this lead went anywhere, and it's probably 213 00:15:37.759 --> 00:15:41.039 nothing more than a bunch of smoke, since investigators never found any reason to 214 00:15:41.080 --> 00:15:45.879 consider Repetto as to be a suspect, both before and after the lawsuit. 215 00:15:46.559 --> 00:15:50.080 But even if you completely discount the idea that corrupt cops or people in power 216 00:15:50.120 --> 00:15:56.279 were responsible for Lester's murder, there's still a number of unanswered questions about how 217 00:15:56.320 --> 00:15:58.480 we wound up in the parking lot of the Wood Creek shopping Center. To 218 00:15:58.519 --> 00:16:03.720 begin with, is it possible that he had developed a friendship that someone maybe 219 00:16:03.759 --> 00:16:07.960 getting out of sex work, or maybe someone he had actually helped and had 220 00:16:07.000 --> 00:16:11.159 an affinity for. Is it possible that he was friends with someone that he 221 00:16:11.279 --> 00:16:17.639 thought, you know, we're beyond the criminal component, he was loyal to 222 00:16:17.679 --> 00:16:21.679 her in helping her recover from a lifestyle like that and was meeting up with 223 00:16:21.759 --> 00:16:25.799 her. Or are we aware that one of the phone calls from a quote 224 00:16:25.840 --> 00:16:30.240 woman. Were his parents aware that he was starting to date or talk to 225 00:16:30.320 --> 00:16:33.480 somebody, Well, we're going to talk in a few moments. How Lester 226 00:16:33.639 --> 00:16:37.159 had recently gotten over a breakup, So I'm not sure if he was involved 227 00:16:37.159 --> 00:16:41.840 in a series relationship at this point, but that is a good idea here 228 00:16:41.879 --> 00:16:45.080 that maybe it's someone where he arrested this person but he thought, well, 229 00:16:45.120 --> 00:16:48.720 I don't want to enter them into the system. I'll give them a second 230 00:16:48.840 --> 00:16:52.600 chance and maybe I'll help them get them out of this sex work before they 231 00:16:52.639 --> 00:16:53.879 have to spend time in jail. So it could be one of those things 232 00:16:53.919 --> 00:16:57.799 where he developed a close relationship with one of the people he arrested and was 233 00:16:57.840 --> 00:17:02.279 going to meet them, but for whatever reason, they just decided to kill 234 00:17:02.360 --> 00:17:06.559 him instead. I mean, it sort of makes sense because if you think 235 00:17:06.920 --> 00:17:10.480 back before there was dating apps, the way that people would often meet people 236 00:17:10.519 --> 00:17:14.160 would be at work, and if you're a vice officer, you might end 237 00:17:14.240 --> 00:17:18.000 up meeting somebody that you think, oh my gosh, they're in this lifestyle 238 00:17:18.119 --> 00:17:21.640 and what can I do to help them? And you could start off being 239 00:17:21.640 --> 00:17:25.440 friends and it could develop into something more, and it might not be something 240 00:17:25.519 --> 00:17:30.240 that he'd shared with other people in his life. So that seems completely plausible. 241 00:17:30.279 --> 00:17:33.519 Ash Leicester was off duty on the night of his death, and I 242 00:17:33.559 --> 00:17:36.880 think the fact, like we just said, that he left both of his 243 00:17:37.000 --> 00:17:41.359 guns at home discounts the possibility that he was going to Walnut Creek to perform 244 00:17:41.400 --> 00:17:45.480 a bust. This is one reason that I believe the rumors about Lester working 245 00:17:45.519 --> 00:17:49.119 on something big before he was murdered or overblown. If he was involved in 246 00:17:49.240 --> 00:17:53.279 anything which could potentially jeopardize his life, I think he'd be carrying a gun 247 00:17:53.319 --> 00:17:57.160 on him at all times for protection, regardless of whether he was on duty 248 00:17:57.240 --> 00:18:00.960 or not. Some of Lester's his fellow officers made note of the way his 249 00:18:02.119 --> 00:18:06.759 vehicle was parked across three parking spots, which is what cops sometimes do when 250 00:18:06.759 --> 00:18:11.039 they're being extra cautious and don't want to be approached from behind. But if 251 00:18:11.079 --> 00:18:15.160 he was secretly working undercover, it's still very odd that Lester would keep his 252 00:18:15.279 --> 00:18:18.640 badge in his Corvette's glove compartment but not bothered to take either of his weapons 253 00:18:18.680 --> 00:18:22.559 along. What we do know is that Lester was planning to go to the 254 00:18:22.599 --> 00:18:26.240 movies with his best friend that night, but canceled at the last minute without 255 00:18:26.319 --> 00:18:30.440 much of an explanation. Before he left his house, he received two phone 256 00:18:30.440 --> 00:18:34.640 calls, so it's reasonable to assume that one or both of these calls paved 257 00:18:34.640 --> 00:18:38.440 the way for Lester showing up in the shopping center parking lot. Now, 258 00:18:38.559 --> 00:18:42.920 Lester's father, Anthony Garnier, answered one of the calls and claimed the person 259 00:18:42.960 --> 00:18:47.200 on the phone was a woman, But I'm not so sure she would have 260 00:18:47.240 --> 00:18:52.440 been. Catherine Koontz Cootes apparently had a very noticeable Scottish accent, but I 261 00:18:52.440 --> 00:18:56.400 don't believe mister Garnier ever mentioned hearing anything like that in the caller's voice. 262 00:18:56.000 --> 00:19:00.519 However, since multiple blonde women were seen in the parking lot later that night, 263 00:19:00.880 --> 00:19:04.599 it's still possible that the female caller was involved in the murder, oh 264 00:19:04.640 --> 00:19:08.039 for sure. And you know that if the father had heard any kind of 265 00:19:08.160 --> 00:19:14.000 discernible accent, or there had been any kind of verbal lisp or anything that 266 00:19:14.079 --> 00:19:18.000 he would have reported that it would have been ingrained in his mind that this 267 00:19:18.079 --> 00:19:22.799 is that call that my son was on before he left my home and then 268 00:19:22.839 --> 00:19:26.079 he was murdered. So we know it. You know, ninety nine percent 269 00:19:26.279 --> 00:19:30.759 was not Coon's on the other end of the phone. But like you said, 270 00:19:30.279 --> 00:19:36.880 there was another blonde woman supposedly seen near his car when he was shot 271 00:19:37.000 --> 00:19:41.160 or possibly shot, and so could have easily been her, could have been 272 00:19:41.160 --> 00:19:44.359 someone else setting him up knowing that these two women would go meet him at 273 00:19:44.400 --> 00:19:48.039 the car. So and it also, I mean, who knows, Maybe 274 00:19:48.079 --> 00:19:53.000 it's unrelated, but that's very unlikely. But what could the female caller have 275 00:19:53.119 --> 00:19:57.680 said to Lester to compel him to drive to the shopping center. While Lester 276 00:19:57.839 --> 00:20:03.119 was known for being a lady and even though he hoped to possibly get married 277 00:20:03.160 --> 00:20:07.039 and have a family someday, he wasn't quite ready to settle down yet. 278 00:20:07.880 --> 00:20:11.039 Lester had actually been involved in a three year relationship with a woman which was 279 00:20:11.079 --> 00:20:17.680 described as being tumultuous. She was supposedly very possessive of Lester, so they 280 00:20:17.720 --> 00:20:21.720 broke up less than two months before he was killed. Now, this ex 281 00:20:21.759 --> 00:20:25.960 girlfriend had a pretty solid alibi, so it's very unlikely she was involved in 282 00:20:26.000 --> 00:20:30.559 the murder. But given that Lester was currently single, it does open up 283 00:20:30.599 --> 00:20:33.960 the possibility that he may have been looking for female companionship on the night that 284 00:20:34.000 --> 00:20:38.319 he was killed. Perhaps this late night rendezvous at the shopping center had nothing 285 00:20:38.319 --> 00:20:41.519 to do with Lester's police work. He was just there to meet up with 286 00:20:41.559 --> 00:20:45.559 a woman who may or may not have been a sex worker, but she 287 00:20:45.599 --> 00:20:49.079 wound up killing him instead. Of course, the issue with this theory is 288 00:20:49.119 --> 00:20:53.279 that there's no apparent motive for this crime. Lester's wallet was in the glove 289 00:20:53.319 --> 00:20:57.279 box, so robbery didn't seem to be the motive, though I suppose the 290 00:20:57.319 --> 00:21:03.720 alternative explanation is that the killer planned to rob Lester, discovered he wasn't carrying 291 00:21:03.759 --> 00:21:07.559 anything, and never bothered to check the glove compartment. Since Lester was driving 292 00:21:07.559 --> 00:21:11.960 a Corvette and parked alone in a dark lot late at night, he could 293 00:21:11.960 --> 00:21:17.000 have been an ideal target for a random perpetrator who wanted to rob him. 294 00:21:17.240 --> 00:21:19.720 But I find it odd that the only item which appeared to be missing were 295 00:21:19.799 --> 00:21:23.839 Lester's car keys. Why would the killer take the keys and leave the car 296 00:21:23.920 --> 00:21:29.720 behind, unless perhaps there was another key on that ring which the perpetrator wanted 297 00:21:29.759 --> 00:21:33.480 for some reason. Well, let me ask you this. What if they 298 00:21:33.559 --> 00:21:37.920 shoot him he was shot what twice? Yeah? Okay, so let's say 299 00:21:37.920 --> 00:21:41.039 they shoot him twice. He's maybe moaning or making noises, or they're just 300 00:21:41.079 --> 00:21:45.720 saying listen. If there's any chance this guy's gonna survive this or is going 301 00:21:45.799 --> 00:21:49.880 to be coherent. We're going to take his key so he can't drive himself 302 00:21:49.920 --> 00:21:53.519 somewhere and can't leave this location, and so basically he's going to sit in 303 00:21:53.559 --> 00:21:57.559 a simpty parking lot and die in the next few minutes. So we're out 304 00:21:57.599 --> 00:22:03.160 of here. You know. Obviously it wasn't so remote that people weren't there, 305 00:22:03.200 --> 00:22:06.400 because it's a shopping center. There's a carpet layer working, you know. 306 00:22:06.480 --> 00:22:08.440 Some of those stores had lights on, so it could have been that 307 00:22:08.480 --> 00:22:11.599 there's these two shots, they panic, they grab the keys, and they 308 00:22:11.720 --> 00:22:17.279 run, knowing that he won't be able to get help from anyone. Yeah, 309 00:22:17.319 --> 00:22:18.640 that makes sense that maybe they didn't have any interest in the car, 310 00:22:18.680 --> 00:22:22.759 but they just wanted to ensure that he wouldn't be able to drive anywhere to 311 00:22:22.799 --> 00:22:26.839 get help if he wasn't dead yet by that point. The biggest issue investigators 312 00:22:26.839 --> 00:22:32.400 have faced since matching the fingerprint to Catherine Konz is trying to figure out any 313 00:22:32.400 --> 00:22:37.799 sort of tangible connection between her and Lester. The closest like anyone could find 314 00:22:37.880 --> 00:22:41.839 was that Lester and his family often ate at a restaurant where coons briefly worked 315 00:22:41.839 --> 00:22:45.680 as a waitress, but that's pretty tenuous, you know. Coons went on 316 00:22:45.720 --> 00:22:48.440 trial in nineteen ninety one for her alleged role in a murder for higher plot 317 00:22:48.480 --> 00:22:52.279 to kill her husband, but that took place after she moved to Virginia, 318 00:22:52.519 --> 00:22:56.960 and the extent of her criminal activities while living in California are a lot more 319 00:22:57.039 --> 00:23:02.680 murky. It seems like one of the reasons Koontz developed a drug addiction was 320 00:23:02.720 --> 00:23:06.839 because she was left home alone while her naval officer husband was away at sea 321 00:23:06.880 --> 00:23:08.960 a lot of the time, and she probably turned to sex work in order 322 00:23:10.000 --> 00:23:15.279 to support her habit. Since Lester's undercover work involved posing as a customer in 323 00:23:15.400 --> 00:23:18.680 order to arrest sex workers, it's certainly possible that Kotz could have crossed paths 324 00:23:18.720 --> 00:23:25.400 with them. One prevalent theory is that Lester's murderer's retaliation for a prior bust 325 00:23:25.440 --> 00:23:29.039 he might have made, but since Kutz had no arrest record during her time 326 00:23:29.079 --> 00:23:33.599 in California, I don't think this motive would apply to her. An alternate 327 00:23:33.640 --> 00:23:37.079 explanation might be that Lester was using Kootz as an informant and she convinced him 328 00:23:37.079 --> 00:23:41.759 to meet her at the shopping center under the guise of supplying them with information, 329 00:23:41.279 --> 00:23:45.400 but for whatever reason, she wound up killing him instead. It depends 330 00:23:45.440 --> 00:23:48.720 on if this is If this is true, if this is really what happened, 331 00:23:48.759 --> 00:23:52.680 who she would have been given information about, who would have been behind 332 00:23:52.759 --> 00:23:56.799 the sting that he might have made progress on if she did give accurate information. 333 00:23:57.319 --> 00:24:00.960 Remember, if she's addicted to drugs at the time, or if she 334 00:24:00.160 --> 00:24:04.559 relies on this sex work to fund a drug habit, you can get pretty 335 00:24:04.559 --> 00:24:11.039 desperate. So if you've agreed in reward for not in reward for going to 336 00:24:11.759 --> 00:24:17.079 share information, you're not going to go to prison. You might feel very 337 00:24:17.119 --> 00:24:19.319 pressured that I have to show up and I have to give information, But 338 00:24:19.400 --> 00:24:23.640 if it comes at a cost of not having your drug addiction met or is 339 00:24:23.680 --> 00:24:27.759 going to take down the person who supplies you with drugs, does your addiction 340 00:24:27.920 --> 00:24:33.720 override that and cause you to kill the person asking you for information. It 341 00:24:33.720 --> 00:24:37.799 does make me wonder though, if she would have even had any information to 342 00:24:37.839 --> 00:24:41.359 supply, And that's why I wish we knew a lot more about her activities 343 00:24:41.440 --> 00:24:45.640 in California and if she connected with anyone while she was working on the streets 344 00:24:45.640 --> 00:24:48.599 who was dangerous. I mean, I haven't heard anything about her having a 345 00:24:48.599 --> 00:24:52.720 pimp or any handler who operated, or money and stuff like that, so 346 00:24:53.079 --> 00:24:56.880 it makes me wonder what she could have had to offer to Lester. But 347 00:24:56.960 --> 00:25:00.160 that's why I am intrigued by your theory that perhaps Lester took a shine to 348 00:25:00.240 --> 00:25:03.279 were and wanted to help her and get her out of sex work or something 349 00:25:03.319 --> 00:25:07.359 like that instead of arresting her and that, but she double crossed him by 350 00:25:07.400 --> 00:25:14.039 deciding to kill him. Of course, another issue is that in addition to 351 00:25:14.160 --> 00:25:18.279 Koons, there may have also been one, even two other women involved in 352 00:25:18.319 --> 00:25:22.160 this crime, and no one knows who they are. We have two key 353 00:25:22.200 --> 00:25:26.400 eyewitness sightings from the parking lot that night, the carpet layer who heard what 354 00:25:26.480 --> 00:25:30.759 was most likely gunshots before he saw two blond women walking towards separate vehicles and 355 00:25:30.839 --> 00:25:34.759 driving away, and the witness who drove through the lot and saw a blonde 356 00:25:34.799 --> 00:25:41.160 woman exiting Lester's corvette. But the biggest complication is figuring out the timing of 357 00:25:41.160 --> 00:25:45.720 these two sightings and how close they took place to one another. During the 358 00:25:45.799 --> 00:25:49.799 Unsolved Mystery segment, one of the investigators acknowledged that these two sightings may not 359 00:25:49.920 --> 00:25:55.119 actually be connected to each other, and it's possible that the two blonde women 360 00:25:55.200 --> 00:26:00.000 seen by the carpet layer might be two completely innocent bystanders who had no involvement 361 00:26:00.240 --> 00:26:04.079 in the crime. It's also possible that three entirely different women were involved in 362 00:26:04.119 --> 00:26:07.880 the murder, though when the carpet layer looked at the composite sketch of the 363 00:26:07.880 --> 00:26:11.839 blonde scene exiting the corvette, he thought she might be one of the same 364 00:26:11.880 --> 00:26:17.640 women he saw. However, it was dark and both witnesses saw these women 365 00:26:17.680 --> 00:26:22.279 from a distance, so I'm not sure if either of them could positively identify 366 00:26:22.440 --> 00:26:27.000 any of the women as Catherine. Coon's descriptions were also provided the two vehicles 367 00:26:27.039 --> 00:26:30.599 the blonde drove out of the parking lot, which were a blue Toyota pickup 368 00:26:30.680 --> 00:26:34.960 and a grayish white Toyota or dats in car, but it's unclear of Coons 369 00:26:34.960 --> 00:26:38.799 would have had access to vehicles of that type in nineteen eighty eight. I 370 00:26:38.839 --> 00:26:44.119 personally think it's too much of a coincidence that all these similar looking blonde women 371 00:26:44.440 --> 00:26:48.440 were seen in the parking lot of a closed shopping center late at night around 372 00:26:48.480 --> 00:26:52.680 the same time, given that her fingerprint was on the window, the blonde 373 00:26:52.680 --> 00:26:56.000 steam climbing out of the corvette was probably Coons, and the carpet layer subsequently 374 00:26:56.039 --> 00:27:03.279 saw her and an unidentified female accomplice. Well, this goes along with our 375 00:27:03.319 --> 00:27:07.839 age old theory that eyewitnesses are problematic, not because they don't have amazing intent 376 00:27:07.880 --> 00:27:12.359 and they don't you know, they're having any kind of ill intent when they're 377 00:27:12.400 --> 00:27:18.119 describing what they saw. But we see here that you have two eyewitnesses. 378 00:27:18.119 --> 00:27:21.960 They might actually have stories that don't line up and that you say, yes, 379 00:27:22.000 --> 00:27:26.119 that looks similar to who I saw. But it's very difficult to find 380 00:27:26.200 --> 00:27:32.440 distinct factors that you saw on an individual in a brief moment and then looking 381 00:27:32.480 --> 00:27:34.960 at a picture and saying, yes, this is absolutely one hundred percent the 382 00:27:36.000 --> 00:27:41.319 same person looking similar, maybe that's the right person. That does not really 383 00:27:41.359 --> 00:27:45.759 aid investigators with any kind of momentum to move forward and try to find a 384 00:27:45.799 --> 00:27:49.799 person who matches these descriptions. Even the cars weren't quite as clear as we 385 00:27:49.839 --> 00:27:53.000 needed them to be when we're asking someone to nail down exactly what kind of 386 00:27:53.319 --> 00:27:57.599 make and model they saw, And you also have to account for the fact 387 00:27:57.599 --> 00:28:02.519 that when they originally made these sightings, there would have been nothing remarkable about 388 00:28:02.559 --> 00:28:04.640 them because they didn't know that a murder had taken place. They didn't find 389 00:28:04.680 --> 00:28:10.000 Lester's body till the following morning. And just think of your average night where 390 00:28:10.039 --> 00:28:11.720 it's like you might see a blonde woman in a parking lot. There's just 391 00:28:11.759 --> 00:28:15.759 going to be nothing out of the ordinary about it. And then the following 392 00:28:15.839 --> 00:28:18.200 day here, oh, someone was killed in that same parking lot. Yes, 393 00:28:18.519 --> 00:28:22.079 I remember seeing a blonde woman there, and you may place more significance 394 00:28:22.119 --> 00:28:26.240 on it, even though it might not even be connected to the crime. 395 00:28:26.480 --> 00:28:30.519 And that's why eyewitness identification can be very unreliable. This is a little bit 396 00:28:30.599 --> 00:28:33.480 off the topic of the parking lot, but I'm just curious what both of 397 00:28:33.519 --> 00:28:37.960 you think. So with regards to Koons, we know that she had an 398 00:28:38.000 --> 00:28:42.279 active crack cocaine habit at the time, and she was engaged in sex work, 399 00:28:42.799 --> 00:28:47.319 and we know that Boas was busted. What do we think the chances 400 00:28:47.359 --> 00:28:51.599 are that those two could have been acquainted and if there was some connection between 401 00:28:51.680 --> 00:28:56.880 Coon's and Boas, and maybe Boas was like, Okay, well, if 402 00:28:56.920 --> 00:29:00.480 you do this job for me, I will pay you X amount of dollars 403 00:29:00.599 --> 00:29:06.519 or give you this amount of drugs some kind of incentive, because even if 404 00:29:06.559 --> 00:29:08.640 it was Koons, I'm just having such a hard time, like I'm struggling 405 00:29:08.640 --> 00:29:14.359 with what would be the motive exactly, Like I know they didn't find any 406 00:29:14.359 --> 00:29:17.640 connection between the drug bust, and I've gone over the points. How it's 407 00:29:17.720 --> 00:29:19.519 kind of weird that they would target Lestra because he was just kind of a 408 00:29:19.559 --> 00:29:23.759 small cog. He just did some surveillance. He didn't really orchestrate the bus 409 00:29:23.799 --> 00:29:27.200 or personally arrest anybody, so I'm not sure why he would be targeted, 410 00:29:27.640 --> 00:29:30.920 But yeah, I could definitely see someone if this was murder for higher like 411 00:29:32.039 --> 00:29:36.759 getting someone like Kootz who had addiction issues and also a sex work. So 412 00:29:37.519 --> 00:29:41.680 I personally think that like maybe Koots didn't even know who Lesterra was. He 413 00:29:41.880 --> 00:29:45.119 was just kind of a hired gun. But it's just trying to figure out 414 00:29:45.160 --> 00:29:48.039 who would want to kill Lester that has just led the investigation to a dead 415 00:29:48.119 --> 00:29:52.039 end because, like you said, Kots doesn't seem to have a motive, 416 00:29:52.119 --> 00:29:56.960 and I'm sure through the course of his term as a police officer that Lester 417 00:29:57.160 --> 00:30:02.079 may have pissed some people off who could have wanted been dead, but it 418 00:30:02.160 --> 00:30:04.960 just seemed surprising that they wouldn't have found someone like that during the course of 419 00:30:04.960 --> 00:30:11.359 the investigation. However, the potential involvement of more than one person would make 420 00:30:11.400 --> 00:30:17.759 it very difficult for the authorities to build a prosecutable case against Kuts. Even 421 00:30:17.799 --> 00:30:22.599 though an unidentified fingerprint was found on the corvette window, investigators did not actually 422 00:30:22.640 --> 00:30:26.039 submit it to the FBI for analysis until two thousand and two. They figured 423 00:30:26.039 --> 00:30:30.599 that since the print was just a partial it was of no use. While 424 00:30:30.640 --> 00:30:33.319 you could criticize this decision, keep in mind that Kots did not have a 425 00:30:33.359 --> 00:30:38.160 police record until she was arrested in Virginia in nineteen ninety one, so if 426 00:30:38.200 --> 00:30:41.119 they ran the print back in nineteen eighty eight, it wouldn't have made any 427 00:30:41.119 --> 00:30:47.480 difference. Once the fingerprint was linked to Kut's, investigators would spend six years 428 00:30:47.519 --> 00:30:51.279 thoroughly checking her background, so there was no lack of effort with trying to 429 00:30:51.319 --> 00:30:56.039 build a case against Kots and uncover additional evidence implicating her in the murder. 430 00:30:56.559 --> 00:31:00.319 There really isn't too much information out there about the murder for higher plot on 431 00:31:00.440 --> 00:31:03.880 greg Orycoots, so I really can't come to a definitive conclusion about whether or 432 00:31:03.920 --> 00:31:08.759 not Catherine was actually guilty of that crime. But man Greg must have been 433 00:31:08.799 --> 00:31:14.000 the most trusting husband in the world if he was willing to testify on behalf 434 00:31:14.039 --> 00:31:18.200 of the woman who was accused of hiring people to murder him. While it 435 00:31:18.279 --> 00:31:22.920 helped get Catherine acquitted, it didn't exactly save their marriage. Investigators were eventually 436 00:31:23.000 --> 00:31:26.640 able to track Greg down and interview him, and they came to the conclusion 437 00:31:26.680 --> 00:31:30.960 that he had no knowledge or involvement in Lester's murder. For all we know, 438 00:31:32.319 --> 00:31:34.720 Greg was probably away at sea at the time Lester was killed, and 439 00:31:34.799 --> 00:31:38.279 since he was gone from home so much, it doesn't sound like Greg had 440 00:31:38.319 --> 00:31:42.480 any insights on what sort of criminal activity his wife may have been mixed up 441 00:31:42.480 --> 00:31:49.440 in during their time in California. Poor Greg just seems completely oblivious to what's 442 00:31:49.480 --> 00:31:56.279 going on. You know. He marries this foreign national who the two accomplices 443 00:31:56.400 --> 00:32:00.000 say told them she cannot afford to lose her green cards. She cannot lose 444 00:32:00.079 --> 00:32:02.799 her ability to be here in the US. So if she could just kill 445 00:32:02.839 --> 00:32:07.119 her husband, she might have the resources and be able to manipulate a way 446 00:32:07.160 --> 00:32:12.400 to stay here in the United States and Greg's like, it's okay, she 447 00:32:12.480 --> 00:32:15.079 would never do something like this. But while the man's off serving in our 448 00:32:15.119 --> 00:32:20.759 country, she's back here. Yes, it's very difficult to be the spouse 449 00:32:20.839 --> 00:32:25.640 to a military personnel service man or woman. I'm a proud daughter of a 450 00:32:25.720 --> 00:32:30.160 marine, so I know the families also serve with their loved one. But 451 00:32:31.319 --> 00:32:35.799 here it's like he went off to see and she went, yeah, I'm 452 00:32:35.839 --> 00:32:39.319 not doing this kind of like by myself. And she went and was addicted 453 00:32:39.359 --> 00:32:44.440 to drugs, was doing sex work to fund that addiction. And I don't 454 00:32:44.440 --> 00:32:46.759 know that Greg really was aware of any of that. So he comes back 455 00:32:46.799 --> 00:32:50.480 and of course he thinks, oh, my wife would have nothing to do 456 00:32:50.519 --> 00:32:54.319 with a scheme to hurt me. She's just my sweet little wife that I 457 00:32:54.400 --> 00:32:59.319 left behind. And clearly it comes to turn out that they didn't have the 458 00:32:59.319 --> 00:33:02.279 relationship thought because they got divorced anyway. But kind of blows my mind that 459 00:33:04.200 --> 00:33:07.240 she was almost able to live these two double lives while Greg was off at 460 00:33:07.319 --> 00:33:10.920 sea. Pretty hard to hide a crack coquete addiction. You'd think that you 461 00:33:10.920 --> 00:33:15.480 would come back. And not only is she going to be physically ravaged by 462 00:33:15.519 --> 00:33:19.480 this, but I think her mental health is not going to be in the 463 00:33:19.480 --> 00:33:22.480 same place that it was when he left. It would be pretty hard to 464 00:33:22.599 --> 00:33:28.000 hide that. And although he might not have an idea of exactly what she 465 00:33:28.240 --> 00:33:30.920 was into and what criminal activity she was up to, I'm sure that he 466 00:33:31.000 --> 00:33:36.079 had to have a pretty good idea. Either that or he's in denial. 467 00:33:36.240 --> 00:33:40.079 I mean, a lot of people who are spouses of people with substance use 468 00:33:40.160 --> 00:33:44.839 disorders, you see a lot of denial. I mean I saw it when 469 00:33:44.839 --> 00:33:47.720 I was at rehab, and you'd see people who really don't want to admit 470 00:33:47.720 --> 00:33:52.200 that their loved one has an addiction, because then what does that say about 471 00:33:52.240 --> 00:33:55.079 them? And I think then they've got to redefine the relationship and define how 472 00:33:55.119 --> 00:33:59.599 they see it and themselves, and that can be an incredibly complex thing. 473 00:34:00.000 --> 00:34:01.559 So there's a lot of reasons why people can go, oh, they would 474 00:34:01.640 --> 00:34:06.680 never do that, because it is just too hard of a truth to admit 475 00:34:06.759 --> 00:34:09.599 that to oneself, that yes, she had an addiction and she tried to 476 00:34:09.679 --> 00:34:14.519 kill me. It's maybe easier for his mind at the time to just go, 477 00:34:14.719 --> 00:34:17.519 no, she would never do that because that reality is much more comfortable 478 00:34:17.559 --> 00:34:25.480 than the alternative. Since investigators made three unsuccessful attempts to convince prosecutors to file 479 00:34:25.599 --> 00:34:30.639 murder charges against Kuns. I think they just became desperate for information when they 480 00:34:30.639 --> 00:34:35.320 decided to publicly name her as a suspect in two thousand and eight and offer 481 00:34:35.360 --> 00:34:38.400 a two hundred and fifty thousand dollars reward. They probably did so out of 482 00:34:38.400 --> 00:34:43.320 fear that Coons would be deported back to Scotland following her release from prison, 483 00:34:43.800 --> 00:34:47.360 and sure enough, that's exactly what happened, as Ice is a totally different 484 00:34:47.559 --> 00:34:53.639 government jurisdiction and will not let an ongoing murder investigation halt their deportation procedures. 485 00:34:54.039 --> 00:34:59.119 You might recall an episode we released a few years ago about the nineteen eighty 486 00:34:59.159 --> 00:35:02.760 two disappearing of the Solomon family, where the prime suspect, Harvey Rader, 487 00:35:04.159 --> 00:35:07.760 was serving time in prison for an unrelated crime and facing deportation back to his 488 00:35:07.880 --> 00:35:13.800 native England once his sentence came to an end. That compelled the authorities to 489 00:35:13.840 --> 00:35:16.840 work diligently at building a case against Rader. They were able to charge him 490 00:35:16.880 --> 00:35:21.920 with the family's murders before he left the country, but the problem was that 491 00:35:22.000 --> 00:35:25.840 the case was very circumstantial, and Rader ultimately wound up being acquitted at his 492 00:35:25.920 --> 00:35:30.840 third trial. If they had done the same thing with Catherine Kon's, there's 493 00:35:30.880 --> 00:35:34.519 a good chance or trial would have had the same result and ended with her 494 00:35:34.559 --> 00:35:38.280 walking free. It might seem damning that Kons's fingerprint was found at the murder 495 00:35:38.360 --> 00:35:43.159 scene, but think about how a good defense attorney might have spound this a 496 00:35:43.239 --> 00:35:47.320 trial. While a witness did see a woman matching Koons's description emerged from Lester's 497 00:35:47.360 --> 00:35:52.039 car and looked through the driver's side window, he did not say that he 498 00:35:52.079 --> 00:35:55.239 saw her carrying a murder weapon, nor could he confirm if Lester was already 499 00:35:55.280 --> 00:36:00.599 dead by this point. Hypothetically, the defense could acknowledge the ko met or 500 00:36:00.599 --> 00:36:04.639 stumbled across Lester in the parking lot that night in order to explain away the 501 00:36:04.679 --> 00:36:07.840 fingerprint, and then claim that someone else came along and committed the murder after 502 00:36:07.920 --> 00:36:14.639 Coon's already left. I don't blame you. You don't ask a DA to 503 00:36:14.639 --> 00:36:16.519 take a case like this, or to really press for a case like this, 504 00:36:16.639 --> 00:36:21.800 when all you have is this fingerprint, and like we've talked about, 505 00:36:22.079 --> 00:36:27.679 you cannot prove when that fingerprint was left. It could have been earlier that 506 00:36:27.800 --> 00:36:30.679 afternoon. It could have been that morning, it could have been a couple 507 00:36:30.760 --> 00:36:34.599 days before. And Jules, like you said, who's to say she wasn't 508 00:36:34.599 --> 00:36:37.480 the blonde lady who was seen by an eyewitness, but the timing was a 509 00:36:37.480 --> 00:36:43.480 little bit off. And she walks away, and then someone comes up to 510 00:36:43.519 --> 00:36:49.000 this abandoned corvette in the middle of this vacant parking lot and ended up shooting 511 00:36:49.519 --> 00:36:52.760 the driver. Lester, I mean, think about it like this. Let's 512 00:36:52.760 --> 00:36:57.159 say Coon's was there, and she's trying to give information or something, and 513 00:36:57.239 --> 00:37:00.480 when she gets out of the car and walks away, perhaps she's confronted by 514 00:37:00.639 --> 00:37:07.119 her pimp or the person who's in charge of collecting money from her for sex 515 00:37:07.199 --> 00:37:09.159 work, and he says, what were you doing in that car? Do 516 00:37:09.199 --> 00:37:12.760 you get money? Give me money? And she's say no, he wouldn't 517 00:37:12.800 --> 00:37:15.119 pay me, he didn't pay me, he tricked me. And then he 518 00:37:15.159 --> 00:37:19.079 goes and kills him. I mean, there's a million things that could have 519 00:37:19.159 --> 00:37:23.840 happened where the two blonde ladies weren't Coon's or could have been Coons. Coons 520 00:37:23.840 --> 00:37:29.199 could be the killer or an accomplice, or maybe wasn't part of that crime. 521 00:37:29.280 --> 00:37:32.519 It's as a district attorney. There's no way in heck I could take 522 00:37:32.519 --> 00:37:37.320 a case like this and feel confident going to trial for two reasons, I 523 00:37:37.360 --> 00:37:38.760 don't think there's enough evidence to prove she did it, and I don't want 524 00:37:38.760 --> 00:37:44.320 to take an innocent person and put them on trial either. Yeah, definitely 525 00:37:44.360 --> 00:37:46.440 a lot of reasonable doubt. And we just talked about what happened with Harvey 526 00:37:46.519 --> 00:37:50.599 Raider and the Solomon family case, where they really wanted to put him on 527 00:37:50.639 --> 00:37:53.840 trial even without the victim's bodies being found. And now that he's been acquitted, 528 00:37:53.920 --> 00:37:58.039 you can't charge him again. That was your only shot and the case 529 00:37:58.119 --> 00:38:00.239 might remain unsolved forever. So at least they didn't do it. The same 530 00:38:00.280 --> 00:38:06.760 thing with Lester Garnier's case because there is still a chance to charge Koons again 531 00:38:06.960 --> 00:38:12.559 if new evidence should surface. And technically, even if Konz was involved, 532 00:38:12.599 --> 00:38:15.840 we really don't even know if she was the one who actually pulled the trigger. 533 00:38:15.440 --> 00:38:20.039 Remember, she later went on trial for hiring someone to murder her husband 534 00:38:20.159 --> 00:38:22.679 rather than doing it herself. So while Konz could have played a role in 535 00:38:22.760 --> 00:38:28.000 learning Lester to the parking lot, her unidentified blonde accomplice may have been the 536 00:38:28.039 --> 00:38:31.440 person who shot him. Whatever happened, the evidence just isn't strong enough at 537 00:38:31.440 --> 00:38:36.280 this point to convict Kots beyond a reasonable doubt, so I can understand why 538 00:38:36.320 --> 00:38:40.159 prosecutors are reluctant to take her to trial. Unfortunately, since Kons is now 539 00:38:40.199 --> 00:38:44.719 back in the United Kingdom, it might be more difficult to track her down 540 00:38:44.760 --> 00:38:49.519 should new evidence against her surface. But even with the fingerprint evidence, the 541 00:38:49.559 --> 00:38:52.719 one thing nobody seems to have figured out after all this time is motive. 542 00:38:53.400 --> 00:38:59.400 Like I mentioned earlier, investigators spent six years delving into Kunz's background and never 543 00:38:59.440 --> 00:39:04.280 found any tangible link between her and Lester. I know I've already expressed my 544 00:39:04.320 --> 00:39:08.760 skepticism about the murder being some massive conspiracy orchestrated by corrupt cops. But even 545 00:39:08.760 --> 00:39:13.760 if it was, how would Koonts have become involved. It sounds like the 546 00:39:13.800 --> 00:39:17.199 extent of her criminal activity in California was turning tricks to support her drug habit, 547 00:39:17.559 --> 00:39:21.639 But how would that escalate it to the murder of a police officer. 548 00:39:22.280 --> 00:39:24.960 If someone wanted Lester dead, why would they hire Kots to do it. 549 00:39:25.639 --> 00:39:29.760 What's strange to me is that, even though Kotz doesn't strike me as a 550 00:39:29.760 --> 00:39:35.039 master criminal, This was a professionally done murder with almost no evidence left behind. 551 00:39:35.639 --> 00:39:38.280 If it wasn't for the partial fingerprint, no one would have ever suspected 552 00:39:38.360 --> 00:39:44.039 Konz and this would essentially be the perfect crime. I just have a feeling 553 00:39:44.079 --> 00:39:47.679 that if there was a massive cover up involving powerful people, Catherine Koontz is 554 00:39:47.719 --> 00:39:51.960 not the type of person who would have been selected to pull off this task. 555 00:39:52.760 --> 00:39:55.039 No, not at all. And you have multiple people who are there. 556 00:39:55.039 --> 00:40:00.480 It's very difficult to have everyone involved in a crime to to keep their 557 00:40:00.480 --> 00:40:05.639 mouth shut. There were large, large, large rewards offered for information in 558 00:40:05.679 --> 00:40:10.159 this case. So to think that this kind of low level criminal is going 559 00:40:10.199 --> 00:40:15.719 to orchestrate the murder of a police officer with other people and not have someone 560 00:40:16.199 --> 00:40:20.159 snitch on her. She's not going to have someone turn on her. She's 561 00:40:20.159 --> 00:40:24.480 not going to make a mistake and leave incriminating evidence. It seems far fetched 562 00:40:24.519 --> 00:40:30.480 to me. It's not impossible, but it seems more difficult than thinking that 563 00:40:30.519 --> 00:40:34.239 there could have been something else nefarious going on with someone that maybe he had 564 00:40:34.760 --> 00:40:37.840 busted for a crime, or if you think about too, like you said, 565 00:40:37.880 --> 00:40:43.480 he is in this parking lot, sitting there, waiting on somebody who 566 00:40:43.559 --> 00:40:47.760 I believe called his home and lured him away from the movies. Was his 567 00:40:47.880 --> 00:40:52.400 ex girlfriend cleared? She clearly had an alibi for where she was correct she 568 00:40:52.480 --> 00:40:55.039 did, yes, And I don't think they found any evidence that this was 569 00:40:55.079 --> 00:40:59.360 a murder for hire. So she's never been considered a suspect in the crime 570 00:41:00.400 --> 00:41:02.199 because I would know she was really frustrated about their breakup and there was some 571 00:41:02.239 --> 00:41:07.239 resentment and anger there. But yeah, there's just too many options and such 572 00:41:07.360 --> 00:41:13.679 little information here to say, Okay, let's take this one fingerprint and run 573 00:41:13.719 --> 00:41:15.800 with it. As this is our suspect, it's time to make a case 574 00:41:15.800 --> 00:41:21.400 against her. All that being said, I don't rule out the idea that 575 00:41:21.440 --> 00:41:24.000 someone did hire Coons to commit this murder, but the crime was a lot 576 00:41:24.039 --> 00:41:29.360 more personal in nature. One thing we know for certain is that Lester received 577 00:41:29.360 --> 00:41:32.280 a call from a woman shortly before leaving his house, and multiple women were 578 00:41:32.320 --> 00:41:36.679 seen in the parking lot at the time he was killed. I know that 579 00:41:36.719 --> 00:41:40.639 investigators couldn't find any tangible link between Lester and Koons, but what if another 580 00:41:40.760 --> 00:41:45.920 woman in either Lester's personal or professional life hired Koons to kill him? Well, 581 00:41:45.960 --> 00:41:50.559 there's no record of Lester, ever, having arrested Coons, who's to 582 00:41:50.599 --> 00:41:53.840 say that another sex worker he busted didn't want revenge. Sure, some of 583 00:41:53.840 --> 00:41:58.760 the women Lester arrested spoke highly of him, but it's safe to say that 584 00:41:58.920 --> 00:42:01.320 not all of them would have been overly thrilled about the idea of going to 585 00:42:01.440 --> 00:42:06.599 jail. But it is also possible the crime had no connection to Lester's work 586 00:42:06.639 --> 00:42:10.079 as a vice officer, and someone wanted him dead for other reasons. Lester 587 00:42:10.199 --> 00:42:14.599 was known as a ladies man, he had recently broken up with his longtime 588 00:42:14.639 --> 00:42:19.679 girlfriend, and he was apparently frequenting massage parlors in his spare time. He 589 00:42:19.800 --> 00:42:22.679 very well could have gotten involved with another woman who, for unknown reasons, 590 00:42:22.719 --> 00:42:27.760 decided to kill him. No one knows what was said to Lester during his 591 00:42:27.800 --> 00:42:30.760 final phone conversation at home, but it seemed to compel him to break off 592 00:42:30.800 --> 00:42:35.440 plans to see a movie with his friend, and the fact that Lester left 593 00:42:35.440 --> 00:42:38.039 his house without his guns leads me to believe that he drove to the Wood 594 00:42:38.119 --> 00:42:43.079 Creek shopping center for something which had nothing to do with his police work. 595 00:42:43.719 --> 00:42:47.440 Even if Lester did not personally know Catherine Kons, the individual who wanted him 596 00:42:47.480 --> 00:42:51.440 dead, could have set things up for coons to kill him in the parking 597 00:42:51.480 --> 00:42:55.920 lot. I have a deep suspicion that whoever he was going to meet was 598 00:42:55.960 --> 00:43:00.480 someone that he really did have a close connection with. I don't think it 599 00:43:00.480 --> 00:43:04.360 was an informant. I don't think that it's somebody that he knows had a 600 00:43:04.679 --> 00:43:09.880 kind of criminal background, because he was a smart, efficient, responsible law 601 00:43:09.960 --> 00:43:15.159 enforcement officer. He always carried his service weapon and he intentionally didn't. Yes, 602 00:43:15.199 --> 00:43:17.440 he didn't tell people where he was going. But is it something like 603 00:43:17.440 --> 00:43:22.320 what Jules said, like this is a new kind of exploratory hangout date with 604 00:43:22.360 --> 00:43:27.559 a girl that he might be trying to date. Is this something else he 605 00:43:27.599 --> 00:43:30.639 wants to meet about for a business opportunity? Like what is it that he 606 00:43:30.800 --> 00:43:35.719 was so safe in that trip that he didn't feel a need to tell anybody 607 00:43:35.719 --> 00:43:39.480 where he was going and he didn't bring his service weapons. Safe enough that 608 00:43:39.519 --> 00:43:45.519 you don't bring your surface weapon, but not familiar enough or long standing enough 609 00:43:45.519 --> 00:43:51.119 that you feel like you can disclose to your best friend who you're meeting or 610 00:43:51.360 --> 00:43:54.119 why you're canceling your movie plans. I just think that it has to be 611 00:43:54.239 --> 00:43:59.079 somebody that he felt comfortable with Either that, or it was an oversight that 612 00:43:59.119 --> 00:44:01.239 he forgot his weapon, But it just doesn't sound like he would make a 613 00:44:01.280 --> 00:44:05.880 mistake like that since he always seemed to carry at least one of his guns. 614 00:44:06.280 --> 00:44:09.519 It seems more likely that he was disarmed by the individual. Either they 615 00:44:09.559 --> 00:44:15.199 did have some sort of relationship, or somehow he was manipulated into believing that 616 00:44:15.239 --> 00:44:21.039 they weren't a threat. If you're wondering why Koontz would have gotten involved in 617 00:44:21.119 --> 00:44:23.320 this, it seems like the main reason she turned to sex work to begin 618 00:44:23.400 --> 00:44:28.079 with was to support a drug habit. We also know that Koontz and her 619 00:44:28.119 --> 00:44:30.760 husband filed for bankruptcy the following year, so things were not good for her 620 00:44:30.800 --> 00:44:36.320 financially. If she really was desperate enough for money, Koontz might have agreed 621 00:44:36.360 --> 00:44:38.800 to perform this murder for someone, even if she had no personal issues with 622 00:44:38.920 --> 00:44:43.679 Lester. If this is what happened, I can't help but wonder if it 623 00:44:43.679 --> 00:44:46.679 may have inspired Koontz when she orchestrated a plot to murder her own husband three 624 00:44:46.719 --> 00:44:52.639 years later, as she supposedly hired Melinda Cooper, a seventeen year old runaway 625 00:44:52.679 --> 00:44:54.840 she had taken under her wing, to perform the job. Who's to say 626 00:44:54.880 --> 00:45:00.559 the situation wasn't reversed, and Kountz was in Melinda Cooper's role once someone else 627 00:45:00.679 --> 00:45:05.039 hired her to kill Lester, but this time the plan worked pretty well since 628 00:45:05.079 --> 00:45:07.440 Coons didn't even pop up on the radar as a suspect for several years, 629 00:45:07.760 --> 00:45:13.280 and whoever orchestrated the whole thing has never been identified, so in the end, 630 00:45:13.400 --> 00:45:15.800 I definitely think this was a murder for higher plot, but one in 631 00:45:15.800 --> 00:45:21.719 which investigators originally looked in the wrong direction. The plot had nothing to do 632 00:45:21.800 --> 00:45:25.480 with a major scandal involving the teenage sex trafficking ring, and Lester was murdered 633 00:45:25.519 --> 00:45:30.119 for personal reasons. I have no idea where Catherine Coons is today, as 634 00:45:30.159 --> 00:45:35.880 the investigation once again hit a standstill after she was deported, But the authorities 635 00:45:35.920 --> 00:45:38.360 are still trying to solve the case and seem to think that there's just one 636 00:45:38.440 --> 00:45:44.360 or two crucial pieces of the puzzle missing which can tie everything together. It's 637 00:45:44.360 --> 00:45:47.039 tragic enough when a police officer is killed in the line of duty, but 638 00:45:47.159 --> 00:45:52.719 here we have a very well respected cop being murdered in cold blooded fashion while 639 00:45:52.760 --> 00:45:55.639 he was off duty, and no one can understand why. Remember there is 640 00:45:55.639 --> 00:46:00.599 still a two hundred and fifty thousand dollars reward being offered for information which leads 641 00:46:00.599 --> 00:46:04.800 to the arrest and prosecution of the responsible party. So if you happen to 642 00:46:04.800 --> 00:46:08.800 have any information on the murder of Lester Gaargnier, please contact the appropriate authorities. 643 00:46:09.360 --> 00:46:14.960 Jules Ashley any final thoughts on the case. I have to go back 644 00:46:14.960 --> 00:46:19.920 to the type of person Lester was. Just to start with, there's not 645 00:46:20.000 --> 00:46:23.440 a single person that can do a single act other than putting your love when 646 00:46:23.440 --> 00:46:29.599 at risk or something that warrants murdering somebody. So but then you look at 647 00:46:29.679 --> 00:46:34.719 Lester and you're like, Okay, this is a man who not only avoided 648 00:46:34.800 --> 00:46:39.199 his own criminal lifestyle and unethical behavior, but he was actually a law enforcement 649 00:46:39.239 --> 00:46:45.039 agent on a vice squad, who was trying to clean up the community, 650 00:46:45.360 --> 00:46:49.320 to help people get out of a life of sex work, in human trafficking 651 00:46:49.679 --> 00:46:52.400 and drugs and all of these things right to make sure his community is safer. 652 00:46:52.840 --> 00:46:58.880 And not only that, but through that job, he was getting opportunities 653 00:46:58.880 --> 00:47:01.119 to help his parents by allowing them to live with him in this nice new 654 00:47:01.119 --> 00:47:07.519 home he had gotten. He was making plans for a retirement about ten years 655 00:47:07.880 --> 00:47:10.840 later, where he was going to have other businesses, such as a hot 656 00:47:10.880 --> 00:47:15.519 dog stand in franchise that he was starting with his best friend. He was 657 00:47:15.559 --> 00:47:22.199 a dreamer, He was somebody dedicated to a beautiful, successful life with his 658 00:47:22.280 --> 00:47:27.320 family, and it was completely cut short, just with no warning. Like 659 00:47:27.360 --> 00:47:30.559 we talked about throughout this whole case, it really wasn't like Lester was deeply 660 00:47:30.639 --> 00:47:37.320 involved in the apprehension of big time criminals and political figures and things like that. 661 00:47:37.639 --> 00:47:40.480 The case we keep referring to, he was doing surveillance, so he 662 00:47:40.639 --> 00:47:47.440 wasn't even the big takedown officer. It seems to me that Lester had formed 663 00:47:47.480 --> 00:47:53.400 a trust with somebody who didn't actually earn it, and that had manipulated him 664 00:47:53.760 --> 00:47:59.280 and used his kindness in his charm against him, making him feel safe enough 665 00:47:59.280 --> 00:48:04.039 to leave his house to meet without his service weapon in a place where there 666 00:48:04.079 --> 00:48:07.159 weren't going to be that many people around, and they stole his life away 667 00:48:07.199 --> 00:48:10.400 from him, and in turn, they stole a lot of people's dreams. 668 00:48:10.519 --> 00:48:15.320 His best friend was waiting for him to get paperwork for their new hot dog 669 00:48:15.480 --> 00:48:20.360 vending business the morning that he was killed. He was standing there waiting for 670 00:48:20.440 --> 00:48:23.559 him to meet him so they could go sign paperwork together. His parents lost 671 00:48:23.639 --> 00:48:28.719 their son. You know, who knows what his life would have turned into. 672 00:48:28.760 --> 00:48:32.639 And so it's such a sad case. And what's frustrating is if you're 673 00:48:32.679 --> 00:48:37.440 going to say a single fingerprint kind of locks down who our main suspect is, 674 00:48:37.840 --> 00:48:40.480 I just don't think we can go that route. I think it gives 675 00:48:40.519 --> 00:48:46.400 us a lead and a suspect, but I think there is almost a end 676 00:48:46.440 --> 00:48:50.760 listless of suspects while having no names on that list. At the same time, 677 00:48:52.800 --> 00:48:55.119 Lester had everything going for him. You know, he was thirty years 678 00:48:55.159 --> 00:48:59.920 old, he's recently single, he has this really good job at the end 679 00:49:00.079 --> 00:49:04.119 SETPD like Ash just said, he wanted to open this hot dog stand with 680 00:49:04.199 --> 00:49:07.079 his best friend and maybe franchise it out or expand and have a hot dog 681 00:49:07.199 --> 00:49:12.079 empire, and that sounds really exciting. Like we know how popular food trucks 682 00:49:12.119 --> 00:49:15.280 are now. That would have been kind of the food truck infancy that it 683 00:49:15.400 --> 00:49:19.880 started with hot dogs, and he had this plan, like his future seemed 684 00:49:19.920 --> 00:49:22.119 like it was going to be really solid. His parents had moved in, 685 00:49:22.239 --> 00:49:27.000 and it really breaks my heart for his parents because it sounds like they were 686 00:49:27.079 --> 00:49:30.840 of like a lower socioeconomic status and he brought them up to this nicer home, 687 00:49:31.159 --> 00:49:35.000 and then you have to wonder what became of this home and what became 688 00:49:35.039 --> 00:49:38.360 of the support of the parents after Lester's death. It just it makes me 689 00:49:38.440 --> 00:49:43.760 really sad because they likely were just so proud of their son, everything that 690 00:49:43.800 --> 00:49:46.039 he'd accomplished, and then to have him stolen from them, and not to 691 00:49:46.119 --> 00:49:52.159 understand who took him and why, and even if it was Catherine Koon's, 692 00:49:52.840 --> 00:49:55.440 there is a possibility or potential that it was Katherine Kuon's, but since there 693 00:49:55.480 --> 00:49:59.840 was multiple women there, it could have been one of the other women who 694 00:49:59.880 --> 00:50:04.480 was Ashley said he could have developed some kind of relationship with and she had 695 00:50:04.519 --> 00:50:07.360 disarmed him, because for him to cancel movie plans with the best friend. 696 00:50:07.679 --> 00:50:12.000 I'm just more inclined to believe that because he didn't bring his service weapon, 697 00:50:12.320 --> 00:50:15.119 that it might have been romantic in nature. Of course, that is a 698 00:50:15.119 --> 00:50:19.679 bit of an assumption, but I think we know that he always carried one 699 00:50:19.719 --> 00:50:22.159 gun with him and he didn't have that, so I think we can deduce 700 00:50:22.239 --> 00:50:27.239 from that that he didn't feel threatened at this point. It just feels like 701 00:50:27.960 --> 00:50:31.159 we need a little bit more information for authorities to be able to charge Koons 702 00:50:31.280 --> 00:50:37.239 and whomever she was with, you know, potentially three women involved. It's 703 00:50:37.320 --> 00:50:40.760 just so frustrating because all the information is kind of tenuous, as are the 704 00:50:40.800 --> 00:50:45.639 connections, and we cannot pinpoint, as we've said throughout, when that fingerprint 705 00:50:45.679 --> 00:50:49.519 was there. It could have been three blonde women. It may not have 706 00:50:49.559 --> 00:50:52.239 even been Kons. Koons could have been there at an earlier time, and 707 00:50:52.280 --> 00:50:55.960 then her fingerprint was dusted and they assumed that it was one of the women 708 00:50:55.960 --> 00:51:00.840 who were there, but she could have resembled the composite skein that one of 709 00:51:00.840 --> 00:51:04.519 the witnesses had drawn up. So it's just so hard to say. I 710 00:51:04.519 --> 00:51:08.920 can understand why they didn't go ahead with charging Coons because there just isn't sufficient 711 00:51:08.960 --> 00:51:14.719 evidence at this time. But I hope moving forward that somebody comes forward and 712 00:51:14.800 --> 00:51:19.519 shares this information with law enforcement. Yeah. I remember watching this on Unsolved 713 00:51:19.519 --> 00:51:22.679 Mysteries when it originally aired. It was pretty perplexed by it. But my 714 00:51:22.760 --> 00:51:25.639 initial thoughts that this had to be some sort of cover up or conspiracy, 715 00:51:27.119 --> 00:51:30.519 and that maybe it had something to do with Lester's police work and that someone 716 00:51:30.559 --> 00:51:34.840 in power wanted to have him killed. And then twenty years later I learned 717 00:51:34.840 --> 00:51:37.239 about this lead involving this woman named Catherine Kootz, and I'm like, how 718 00:51:37.239 --> 00:51:40.880 does she fit into this? How does this Scottish woman with no real connection 719 00:51:40.960 --> 00:51:45.320 to Lester? Why is her fingerprint at the scene, What motive would she 720 00:51:45.360 --> 00:51:47.840 have to kill Lester? And it just left me more confused. I mean, 721 00:51:49.280 --> 00:51:52.480 it is just such a sad story because I remember when I first heard 722 00:51:52.519 --> 00:51:55.480 that Lester was doing stuff like driving a Corvette and buying a new house and 723 00:51:55.480 --> 00:51:59.480 getting a new swimming pool. I was thinking, Okay, he has to 724 00:51:59.519 --> 00:52:02.199 be on the tape if a police officer is able to spend this much money. 725 00:52:02.559 --> 00:52:07.000 But they looked into Lester's background, it sounds like he was completely clean 726 00:52:07.119 --> 00:52:09.599 and just planning for his future and trying to give his parents a better life 727 00:52:10.320 --> 00:52:15.480 before it was stolen from him for reasons that we still don't understand. I 728 00:52:15.519 --> 00:52:19.960 mean, given Catherine Kreutz's other criminal history, the fact that she allegedly tried 729 00:52:20.000 --> 00:52:23.679 to kill her husband, I am inclined to believe that she is somehow involved 730 00:52:23.719 --> 00:52:27.480 in this murder and that she may have been the one who pulled the trigger 731 00:52:27.519 --> 00:52:31.679 and may have left her print on the car window while she was killing Lester, 732 00:52:31.840 --> 00:52:36.320 but we just don't know for sure. There's some evidence, but just 733 00:52:36.400 --> 00:52:39.960 not enough pieces of the puzzle in place to put everything together. Because we 734 00:52:40.039 --> 00:52:44.840 have another blonde woman scene at the scene, we have no motive, and 735 00:52:45.239 --> 00:52:49.719 it's just so confusing, and they just never found anything on Lester's background to 736 00:52:49.760 --> 00:52:52.559 give any insight on why anyone would want to have him killed. So that's 737 00:52:52.639 --> 00:52:57.199 just why I hope because they are still offering a two hundred and fifty thousand 738 00:52:57.239 --> 00:53:00.880 dollars reward for information, that someone will come forward who knows something, who 739 00:53:00.920 --> 00:53:06.519 knows why Lester was killed, and offer maybe just that final piece of the 740 00:53:06.519 --> 00:53:09.519 puzzle that will allow them to solve this case and make an arrest. But 741 00:53:09.719 --> 00:53:14.280 until then, it will still continue to perplex me because we know some of 742 00:53:14.320 --> 00:53:16.880 the pieces, some of the ideas of what might happen, but we just 743 00:53:16.920 --> 00:53:22.639 don't know the full picture, and that's what's just so frustrating. Robin, 744 00:53:22.719 --> 00:53:24.360 do you want to tell us a little bit about the Trail Went Cold Patreon? 745 00:53:25.079 --> 00:53:29.079 Yes, the Trail Cold Patreon has been around for three years now, 746 00:53:29.119 --> 00:53:34.199 and we offer these standard bonus features like early ad free episodes, and I 747 00:53:34.239 --> 00:53:37.679 also send out stickers and sign thank you cards to anyone who signs up with 748 00:53:37.760 --> 00:53:43.280 us on Patreon if you join our five dollars tier Tier two. We also 749 00:53:43.400 --> 00:53:47.480 offer monthly bonus episodes in which I talk about cases which are not featured on 750 00:53:47.559 --> 00:53:52.440 the Trail went Cold's original feed, so they're exclusive to Patreon, and if 751 00:53:52.440 --> 00:53:55.320 you join our highest tier tier free, the ten dollar tier. One of 752 00:53:55.320 --> 00:54:01.000 the features we offer is a audio commentary track over class episodes of Unsaved Mysteries, 753 00:54:01.239 --> 00:54:06.360 where you can download an audio file and then boot up the original Unsolved 754 00:54:06.360 --> 00:54:10.840 Mysteries episode on Amazon Prime or YouTube and play it with my audio commentary playing 755 00:54:10.840 --> 00:54:15.079 in the background, where I just provide trivia and factoids about the cases featured 756 00:54:15.159 --> 00:54:19.880 in this episode. And incidentally, the very first episode that I did a 757 00:54:19.920 --> 00:54:23.199 commentary track over was the episode featuring this case. So if you want to 758 00:54:23.239 --> 00:54:28.639 download a commentary track in which I make more smart ass remarks about Jewel Kaylor, 759 00:54:28.920 --> 00:54:30.800 then be sure to join Tier three. So I want to let you 760 00:54:30.880 --> 00:54:35.480 know a little bit about the Jeweles and Nashty patreons. So there's early ad 761 00:54:35.519 --> 00:54:38.599 free episodes of the Path Went Chili. We've got our Path Went Chili mini's, 762 00:54:38.639 --> 00:54:42.599 which are always over an hour, so they're not very many, but 763 00:54:42.599 --> 00:54:45.199 they're just too short to turn into a series, and we're really enjoying doing 764 00:54:45.239 --> 00:54:49.440 those, so we hope you'll check out those patreons. We'll link them in 765 00:54:49.519 --> 00:54:52.679 the show notes. So I want to thank you all for listening, and 766 00:54:52.800 --> 00:54:55.239 any chance you have to share us on social media with a friend or d 767 00:54:55.360 --> 00:54:59.480 rate and review is greatly appreciate it. You can email us at the path 768 00:54:59.559 --> 00:55:02.280 Went ChIL at gmail dot com. You can reach us on Twitter at the 769 00:55:02.360 --> 00:55:07.480 Pathwin. So until next time, be sure to bundle up because cold trails 770 00:55:07.519 --> 00:55:10.679 and chili pass call for warm clothing. Music by Paul Rich from the podcast 771 00:55:10.760 --> 00:55:12.880 Cold Callers Comedy