WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:05.879 Hello, fellow freethinkers. A Wisconsin based nonprofit, the Freedom from Religion Foundation, 2 00:00:06.200 --> 00:00:11.599 has urged at Sneed State Community College in Alabama to stop holding prayers at 3 00:00:11.640 --> 00:00:18.839 staff events and including religious messages in official communications. The frf's letter was prompted 4 00:00:18.839 --> 00:00:24.079 by complaints from a staff member and in highlights concerns from the staff about feeling 5 00:00:24.160 --> 00:00:30.359 uncomfortable and pressured to participate in Christian prayers. Now, the FREF has contended 6 00:00:30.440 --> 00:00:35.320 that such practices violate the First Amendments Establishment Clause, which I agree with, 7 00:00:35.600 --> 00:00:40.439 and it's calling for government neutrality in matters of religion. The organization does have 8 00:00:40.560 --> 00:00:45.799 a history of advocacy for separation of church and state, including cases in Alabama. 9 00:00:45.960 --> 00:00:52.079 This article is entitled the Alabama Community College President's staff prayers pushing religion group 10 00:00:52.159 --> 00:00:57.439 says and then from al dot Com, written by William Thornton, published September 11 00:00:57.520 --> 00:01:00.679 thirteenth, twenty twenty three. And they hand it off to Infidel. What 12 00:01:00.719 --> 00:01:03.040 do you got for us? Infidel? Well, you know, Kelly, 13 00:01:03.159 --> 00:01:07.120 first, I have to say Alabama again. You know, I think sometimes 14 00:01:07.159 --> 00:01:11.120 I wonder if Alabama's just not trying to be the poor cousin of Florida or 15 00:01:11.120 --> 00:01:15.599 Texas. It's just another place with outdated, bad ideas flourishing and thriving. 16 00:01:15.640 --> 00:01:21.840 And you know, this whole thing about prayers before meals and a staff events, 17 00:01:21.879 --> 00:01:25.920 I mean, it really should be a no brainer. It really we're 18 00:01:26.040 --> 00:01:29.359 past You would think we would be past this point by now. And I 19 00:01:29.400 --> 00:01:34.200 did notice it talked about Joe Whitmore presenting a guiding Bible verse for the staff 20 00:01:34.280 --> 00:01:38.079 every year, and all I could think of was, Joe really sounds really 21 00:01:38.200 --> 00:01:42.239 fun at party. I mean, who loves anything more than a good moralizer 22 00:01:42.359 --> 00:01:46.680 standing in the corner yelling at everybody. I mean, it's it's the reason 23 00:01:46.760 --> 00:01:49.079 I go to parties, you know, it's it's the only reason to go. 24 00:01:49.280 --> 00:01:52.719 But you know, hearing about the staff member being forced to participate in 25 00:01:52.760 --> 00:01:55.920 this and being uncomfortable with it, I know that there's going to be some 26 00:01:55.959 --> 00:01:59.799 pushbacks saying, oh, you know, it's it's just just you know, 27 00:02:00.200 --> 00:02:01.879 us doing our thing. It's not a big deal. You know, why 28 00:02:01.959 --> 00:02:06.319 is some group from Wisconsin coming in here and telling us, well, we 29 00:02:06.319 --> 00:02:08.879 should be doing here in Alabama? Well, you know they look at it, 30 00:02:08.960 --> 00:02:12.919 you know, And we talked about many times about how you know, 31 00:02:13.000 --> 00:02:16.080 there're certain people, you know, once again, this religious right who LGBTQ. 32 00:02:16.599 --> 00:02:20.560 You know, if they just see somebody existing, well that's an agenda. 33 00:02:20.680 --> 00:02:23.879 Well you know they're they're actually literally pushing an agenda here. But but 34 00:02:23.000 --> 00:02:27.520 that's okay. Now, I know SNEED is a state college, now, 35 00:02:27.759 --> 00:02:30.000 you know, but it started out as a religious school in eighteen ninety eight, 36 00:02:30.120 --> 00:02:34.919 became part of the system in nineteen sixty seven. But it's not in 37 00:02:35.039 --> 00:02:38.719 eighteen ninety eight, it's not even nineteen sixty seven. It's twenty twenty three, 38 00:02:38.879 --> 00:02:43.120 and even in Alabama. So what do you think, Jimmy, I 39 00:02:43.159 --> 00:02:46.560 think that was a perfect point to hand it off to me because I couldn't 40 00:02:46.599 --> 00:02:52.280 agree more with the fact that not only are we not in the eighteen hundreds 41 00:02:52.319 --> 00:02:55.919 and were not in the very tumultuous nineteen sixties as far as civil rights are 42 00:02:55.919 --> 00:03:00.960 concerned, but in this day and age, this school, this under the 43 00:03:00.039 --> 00:03:07.639 alibut Alabama State Board of Education, UH and having these these uh these prayers 44 00:03:07.680 --> 00:03:10.400 and these these Bible studies, et cetera. UH, just goes against what's 45 00:03:10.400 --> 00:03:15.960 guaranteed in the Constitution, and that is, uh, the right of us 46 00:03:15.000 --> 00:03:21.319 as Americans to not be in a system that is sponsored or in which, 47 00:03:21.879 --> 00:03:24.400 excuse me, get a little tongue twisted to not exist in the system where 48 00:03:24.439 --> 00:03:28.240 the state sponsors religion. That's what I was trying to say. And so, 49 00:03:28.639 --> 00:03:30.520 uh, this is going back way back in time to where it did 50 00:03:30.599 --> 00:03:35.039 start as a seminary, and I would just say this is probably an example 51 00:03:35.120 --> 00:03:38.719 of old habits dying really hard, because I really would expect nothing less. 52 00:03:38.719 --> 00:03:43.400 And we've talked in segments before where I have to have some self awareness of 53 00:03:43.400 --> 00:03:47.080 my own biases when I consider the religious right, uh, and the the 54 00:03:47.479 --> 00:03:53.800 white nationalist conservative movement. Uh, it is really kind of propagated by institutions 55 00:03:53.800 --> 00:03:57.240 like these down in the Deep South. And so I'm not surprised. It's 56 00:03:57.280 --> 00:04:00.319 not right, but I'm not surprised. And so, uh, there's still 57 00:04:00.360 --> 00:04:01.800 some work to be done in that area. I think it's going to be 58 00:04:01.800 --> 00:04:04.280 a long road. And yeah, Kelly, what do you have to say 59 00:04:04.319 --> 00:04:09.439 about that? You know, as Infidel mentioned, it's school was once a 60 00:04:09.520 --> 00:04:14.759 Christian seminary and it's almost like they didn't change management. The same management is 61 00:04:14.800 --> 00:04:16.800 there. I know it's not, but it sure looks the same. And 62 00:04:16.879 --> 00:04:20.680 what I found interesting and it mentioned in the article is that the team name 63 00:04:20.800 --> 00:04:26.079 is the Parsons. The Parsons. Really, they couldn't even come up with 64 00:04:26.120 --> 00:04:29.360 a secular name for the sports team. They actually hadn't named it after a 65 00:04:29.399 --> 00:04:31.959 type of a holy man. What the hell is going on down there in 66 00:04:32.000 --> 00:04:38.600 Alabama? Do they teach evolution in the biology classes there? Do they even 67 00:04:38.680 --> 00:04:43.519 have science classes at all, you know, besides the intelligent design classes. 68 00:04:43.680 --> 00:04:46.920 I just don't get it. I'm not against somebody praying at school. It's 69 00:04:47.000 --> 00:04:50.720 legal, you can do it whatever you want, but the school itself can't 70 00:04:50.720 --> 00:04:55.480 sanction it if it's a public run school, period. They just can't. 71 00:04:55.600 --> 00:04:59.759 And when you have the president of the school leading prayers before meals and the 72 00:05:00.000 --> 00:05:03.920 empis and before meetings on campus, he has crossed over the line because he 73 00:05:04.199 --> 00:05:10.399 is the school, he's representing the school at a school event. I yeah, 74 00:05:10.480 --> 00:05:15.120 this is just egregious breaking the rules. So yeah, I don't even 75 00:05:15.160 --> 00:05:17.639 know where to go at this. Infinitely want to follow up with I mean 76 00:05:18.000 --> 00:05:24.639 from here from there in a little tongue called myself there and Jimmy, I've 77 00:05:24.680 --> 00:05:28.240 got to say that having a little bit of experience of being aware of what 78 00:05:28.319 --> 00:05:32.680 a ripoff concessions can be at a high school game, Parsons might be a 79 00:05:32.720 --> 00:05:39.920 pretty honest representation because you know, there's probably some theft going on pretty bad. 80 00:05:40.040 --> 00:05:42.839 So if there's one thing we know they're good, they can get a 81 00:05:42.839 --> 00:05:45.879 hold of the money. So you know, maybe they're adequately named there. 82 00:05:45.920 --> 00:05:49.319 But seriously, it is no joking map. At the end of the day, 83 00:05:50.040 --> 00:05:55.480 this is exactly what it looks like. And that is a situation where 84 00:05:55.720 --> 00:06:00.160 change is gonna come come about kicking and screaming. No, no one's that 85 00:06:00.199 --> 00:06:02.839 anything till now, so there's no problem, right and and that's a very 86 00:06:02.879 --> 00:06:06.399 dishonest way to look at things. And but you know, that's that's one 87 00:06:06.480 --> 00:06:12.560 way that we see time and again places like Alabama and some of their neighbors, 88 00:06:13.199 --> 00:06:15.800 one of your old states, Jimmy, that uh, you know, 89 00:06:15.120 --> 00:06:19.279 it's a matter of yo. It's it's as long as nobody's saying anything, 90 00:06:19.600 --> 00:06:24.600 everything's really okay. And and then of course if you do say something, 91 00:06:24.639 --> 00:06:28.439 well, what's wrong with them? They really should know their place. And 92 00:06:28.680 --> 00:06:31.639 so we kick back into that old familiar trope of you know, if people 93 00:06:31.639 --> 00:06:34.879 weren't so up at he and just knew what they should be doing, everything 94 00:06:34.879 --> 00:06:39.279 would be just fine, and I think that, unfortunately, that's what we're 95 00:06:39.319 --> 00:06:43.399 probably going to see happen a lot with the people in the surrounding area were 96 00:06:43.399 --> 00:06:46.639 directly impacted with this. But the bottom line is change needs to come about, 97 00:06:46.720 --> 00:06:49.959 whether they're ready for it or not. You know, it isn't as 98 00:06:50.000 --> 00:06:55.199 you mentioned the tumultuous sixties or the late eighteen hundreds. It is twenty twenty 99 00:06:55.199 --> 00:06:59.439 three. It's going to happen one way that sometimes it does look a little 100 00:06:59.439 --> 00:07:02.720 shaky. I have to believe that in the long run, we're going to 101 00:07:02.800 --> 00:07:06.839 see this play out like it should, because this won't last forever. And 102 00:07:08.199 --> 00:07:15.279 Jimmy, yeah, I do so I kind of can relate to what some 103 00:07:15.399 --> 00:07:20.240 of the complaints are here. So the letter to the from the attorney reads 104 00:07:20.279 --> 00:07:24.959 that the people complaining about this feel that they are being forced to bow their 105 00:07:25.000 --> 00:07:29.600 head and anticipate because not doing so I would require them to expose their personal 106 00:07:29.639 --> 00:07:33.519 beliefs to potentially be subject to retribution. Now I can relate to that because 107 00:07:33.560 --> 00:07:38.120 I am in the military, and I do want to say, since I'm 108 00:07:38.160 --> 00:07:41.240 on the subject, my thoughts and opinions are completely my own, and I 109 00:07:41.240 --> 00:07:44.959 don't represent the Department of Defense or military in any way, shape or form. 110 00:07:45.399 --> 00:07:48.160 But you know, we do come from very Christian conservative roots, even 111 00:07:48.360 --> 00:07:53.279 to seeing changes for women's dress and appearance in the last few years. I 112 00:07:53.279 --> 00:07:56.439 mean, up until I think it was twenty nineteen, women had to wear 113 00:07:56.519 --> 00:08:01.879 skirts in their dress uniform. I came into a military that was under the 114 00:08:01.920 --> 00:08:05.480 don't ask, don't tell policy of the Clinton era, and I'm now very 115 00:08:05.519 --> 00:08:09.959 proud that I get to supervise transgender troops underneath me. So I've seen a 116 00:08:09.959 --> 00:08:13.959 lot of growth, but where we lack is the kind of religious growth that 117 00:08:13.000 --> 00:08:16.759 I think a lot of people wish they could see. Right. And so 118 00:08:16.800 --> 00:08:20.120 I'll go to a holiday holiday party, right because it's got to be non 119 00:08:20.160 --> 00:08:24.600 denominational, it's got to be non specific. But the person that gets up 120 00:08:24.639 --> 00:08:30.199 to say the prayer immediately turns it into a Christian a Christian gathering, right, 121 00:08:30.240 --> 00:08:33.200 and the rest of us, you know, unlike what the people in 122 00:08:33.240 --> 00:08:37.480 Alabama experiencing. It's actually kind of fun because everybody bows their head and we're 123 00:08:37.559 --> 00:08:39.639 kind of looking around having a party, like pointing out you know, hey, 124 00:08:39.720 --> 00:08:43.120 oh look an atheists, Look, hey, you don't believe either, 125 00:08:43.159 --> 00:08:43.960 you know, And it's kind of like, all right, man, you 126 00:08:45.000 --> 00:08:48.799 know, so I know who my people are. But I think all that 127 00:08:48.840 --> 00:08:52.759 to say, I'm not really surprised. You know, this is the deep 128 00:08:52.759 --> 00:08:54.879 cell, this is gonna happen. I mean, you can pick your battles. 129 00:08:56.039 --> 00:08:58.519 Sounds like these people pick their battles and want to want something done about 130 00:08:58.519 --> 00:09:01.759 it. In other ways, people may not be speaking up and they may 131 00:09:01.840 --> 00:09:05.879 just deal with it, go get their education, and that's okay too. 132 00:09:05.919 --> 00:09:07.360 I guess you know, I don't want to put any pressure on anybody to 133 00:09:07.399 --> 00:09:09.639 say you have to be an activist, you have to do something, you 134 00:09:09.679 --> 00:09:13.600 really have to do what's right for you. And I'll close out my comments 135 00:09:13.639 --> 00:09:16.639 here with the fact that you know, if these people want to pray, 136 00:09:16.759 --> 00:09:22.240 if they want to be religious in their government funded, government subsidized institution, 137 00:09:22.399 --> 00:09:26.279 then go to a non government subsidie institution, Go find a job somewhere else 138 00:09:26.320 --> 00:09:31.919 where these actions are going to be welcome. Nobody is preventing you from practicing 139 00:09:31.960 --> 00:09:35.000 your faith in a manner that's appropriate for everybody. And so again, whenever 140 00:09:35.039 --> 00:09:37.519 you have a choice to make, you can always be cool, or you 141 00:09:37.519 --> 00:09:41.159 can choose to be an asshole. And it seems like these people are just 142 00:09:41.240 --> 00:09:43.440 choosing the asshole route and they shouldn't do that. So Kelly, what do 143 00:09:43.440 --> 00:09:48.159 you think. Yeah, I think it's important to remember why we have the 144 00:09:48.240 --> 00:09:52.399 separation of church and state and the United States. I think most people and 145 00:09:52.480 --> 00:09:56.200 most religious people in the United States today, I think it's to keep them 146 00:09:56.320 --> 00:10:00.320 out of the government. And that's not really why it was put there. 147 00:10:00.320 --> 00:10:03.120 I mean, that is part of it, but what we really wanted to 148 00:10:03.159 --> 00:10:07.480 do is keep the government out of religion. You have to remember our forefathers 149 00:10:07.519 --> 00:10:11.919 watched as Europe was ablaze with religious force for two centuries. England alone was 150 00:10:11.960 --> 00:10:18.120 officially Protestant and Catholic, and Protestant and Catholic. Several times over the king 151 00:10:18.200 --> 00:10:22.080 or queen would be Protestant and then the Catholics would be persecuted, and hence 152 00:10:22.120 --> 00:10:24.879 the secret priest holes. I don't know if people know about those, but 153 00:10:24.919 --> 00:10:28.679 a lot of old houses in England have little hidie holes for priest will hide 154 00:10:28.759 --> 00:10:33.480 into for when the Protestants came to round them up from Burnham or Hangham. 155 00:10:33.759 --> 00:10:37.840 And then a few years later a Catholic ruler would take the throne and the 156 00:10:37.919 --> 00:10:41.720 reverse would happen, then it would be Protestants being let off to the stakes. 157 00:10:41.759 --> 00:10:46.840 So I don't think this is really what Christians want. I think for 158 00:10:46.879 --> 00:10:52.480 the government to choose one religious sect over the others is something that they really 159 00:10:52.519 --> 00:10:54.639 really don't want, and they should start thinking about how much they want to 160 00:10:54.679 --> 00:11:00.320 interject themselves into the government. I think they think it's okay because they feel 161 00:11:00.360 --> 00:11:03.559 like, well, where the number one religion in America? We're you know, 162 00:11:03.639 --> 00:11:07.039 we're Christians, so that is the one true religion. Of course we're 163 00:11:07.120 --> 00:11:11.679 right, So it's okay for us to be this way. But you know, 164 00:11:11.320 --> 00:11:16.759 how do you decide which sect of Christianity takes over? Would it be 165 00:11:18.159 --> 00:11:20.559 the same when the president is that? Does that make any sense? Then 166 00:11:20.639 --> 00:11:24.000 we'd all have to be Catholics right now and nothing else. Right That's it. 167 00:11:24.240 --> 00:11:28.720 And I don't know what Trump what church Trump belongs to, So I 168 00:11:28.720 --> 00:11:33.399 don't know where we can go for that one some crazy right wing evangelical church. 169 00:11:33.440 --> 00:11:37.480 I'm guessing he would endure something that uh paula white church maybe, And 170 00:11:37.639 --> 00:11:43.600 can you imagine the chaos it would cause if the official national church had changed 171 00:11:43.639 --> 00:11:46.559 every four to eight years. Yeah, honestly, you don't have to imagine. 172 00:11:46.559 --> 00:11:52.159 You just gotta go read some sixteen seventeen europe said century European history to 173 00:11:52.200 --> 00:11:54.559 see what would happen. Len you want to add anything to that, well, 174 00:11:54.559 --> 00:11:58.399 you know, I had to say that I think I know exactly what 175 00:11:58.519 --> 00:12:03.600 church he would shoot, and it's called the highest Bidder because that's just you 176 00:12:03.639 --> 00:12:09.399 know, we we we know that answer. And that may change weekly too, 177 00:12:09.440 --> 00:12:11.759 And he's pretty good at the backstab as well, so that may change 178 00:12:11.759 --> 00:12:15.720 on a regular basis. But but seriously, you know, I was raising 179 00:12:15.759 --> 00:12:18.720 a religious faith that we were heretical. We were on a very small minority, 180 00:12:18.799 --> 00:12:22.960 and this whole idea of a Christian leadership would have been unheard of them 181 00:12:24.240 --> 00:12:26.519 because we knew we'd have fell on the wrong end of it. But now 182 00:12:26.799 --> 00:12:30.639 people seem to forget that, and they think that they all want to say 183 00:12:30.679 --> 00:12:33.159 that at least think that if the Christians are in power, it's going to 184 00:12:33.200 --> 00:12:35.840 be the Christians, like, uh, you know, whatever us is, 185 00:12:37.080 --> 00:12:39.559 you know, that's going to very according to what group you have, but 186 00:12:39.720 --> 00:12:41.679 it's going to be our kind, you know, the good kind of Christian, 187 00:12:41.759 --> 00:12:46.679 the real Christian. And you know, I think that Jimmy's right when 188 00:12:46.679 --> 00:12:50.360 he mentioned picking battles as well, because you know, the truth is is 189 00:12:50.399 --> 00:12:54.200 that a lot of this does reek of the same, uh where you know, 190 00:12:54.240 --> 00:12:58.080 where they go around, you know, have a blessed day. They're 191 00:12:58.159 --> 00:13:01.120 go ahead and they're they're they're underlying that, undertoning that in to get a 192 00:13:01.200 --> 00:13:05.240 feel feel you out, going ahead with that, you know who I am 193 00:13:05.320 --> 00:13:09.639 and what I am. I get a lot of this in this case too, 194 00:13:09.679 --> 00:13:11.039 because come on, really, at the end of the day, I 195 00:13:11.720 --> 00:13:16.879 doubt that the head of the school is, you know, dedicating his life 196 00:13:16.879 --> 00:13:22.200 for the betterment of Christianity. No, he's just being a smug typical Christian, 197 00:13:22.600 --> 00:13:28.120 smearing it in everybody's face, even when often enough he probably doesn't even 198 00:13:28.159 --> 00:13:31.840 realize he's doing that. It's just, well, it's what the people around 199 00:13:31.840 --> 00:13:37.039 me do. I'm I'm being that you know, glorified Pharisee, and I'm 200 00:13:37.080 --> 00:13:39.480 going to present and show myself who I am. And that's really what it 201 00:13:39.639 --> 00:13:43.279 all really reeked to me. Because the Bible says keep you praying private. 202 00:13:43.399 --> 00:13:46.600 So he's already breaking one of the basic rules in the first place. So 203 00:13:46.840 --> 00:13:50.639 I don't know what his deal is, but I think the courts will rain 204 00:13:50.759 --> 00:13:54.080 this in in the long run, because it's really quite clear, it's not 205 00:13:54.159 --> 00:13:58.759 really debatable at all. Now, Jemmy, Yeah, great point. It's 206 00:13:58.759 --> 00:14:03.120 a lot to go off of their I think Kelly's history lesson was excellent, 207 00:14:03.320 --> 00:14:05.879 and I think it's a it's a factor that we forget about a lot, 208 00:14:07.000 --> 00:14:11.159 and uh, you know, it ties directly into what you're saying, Infidel 209 00:14:11.240 --> 00:14:16.159 because uh, you know what if this precedent was set where some sect of 210 00:14:16.240 --> 00:14:20.559 Christianity or Christianity in general, let's say, is just a state sponsored religion, 211 00:14:20.720 --> 00:14:24.360 and then the tides turn and now we have a Hindu or we have 212 00:14:24.399 --> 00:14:30.399 a Muslim religion that starts to take hold. Now, those Christians that were 213 00:14:30.759 --> 00:14:35.120 such proponents of that change have to live with the consequences of their own decisions, 214 00:14:35.240 --> 00:14:39.559 something that they thought was going to benefit them. And I think that 215 00:14:39.679 --> 00:14:46.120 Kelly's historical analysis and your your contemporary analysis are are perfect data points for explaining 216 00:14:46.159 --> 00:14:50.960 why exactly this is not this is you know, not good for society as 217 00:14:50.960 --> 00:14:54.000 a whole. And your point about infidel, your point about the highest bidder 218 00:14:54.039 --> 00:14:58.639 was spot on, not only you know, theoretically right. It's funny when 219 00:14:58.639 --> 00:15:03.879 we talk about you know Trump and his business tactics, right, but in 220 00:15:03.960 --> 00:15:11.039 reality, what's stopping anybody from buying church allegiance and buying the church's checkbook or 221 00:15:11.320 --> 00:15:13.039 at least endorsing the church's checkbook? Right? I mean, we have to 222 00:15:13.120 --> 00:15:18.639 keep that far far away. And so I think that those were excellent points. 223 00:15:18.639 --> 00:15:22.320 I think, you know, understanding the constitution of where it comes from, 224 00:15:22.360 --> 00:15:24.440 even though it was written by men who raped their slaves, uh, 225 00:15:24.600 --> 00:15:28.279 you know, does have some strong points to it. And so I just 226 00:15:28.320 --> 00:15:31.399 thought that was really good. I did have another point that kind of slipped 227 00:15:31.440 --> 00:15:37.840 my mind in your expert commentaries that I might have to just find it, 228 00:15:37.919 --> 00:15:41.120 you know, some other time. But great discussion, Yeah, it was. 229 00:15:41.200 --> 00:15:43.320 It was a really good discussion. I'm glad we had it. And 230 00:15:43.399 --> 00:15:46.840 I guess with that will wrap it up. And if you're going to be 231 00:15:46.840 --> 00:15:50.159 in the Austin area September twenty fourth, you should stop by their Free Thought 232 00:15:50.279 --> 00:15:54.879 Library for live recordings of Talk Heathen and Atheist Experience. It's a lot of 233 00:15:54.879 --> 00:15:56.200 fun. I've done it twice so far this year. I would do it 234 00:15:56.200 --> 00:15:58.759 every month if I didn't live so far away, because it is so much 235 00:15:58.759 --> 00:16:03.399 fun. And do it and and If you want to hear more from the 236 00:16:03.399 --> 00:16:04.320 non profits, you can get it right here.