You'll be away five seventeen. Do you want to report a UFO it?
We don't want to report every thirty one. Do you wish to report a
UFO over hey, we want to one of those data areas thirty one.
Do you wish to find a report of any kind of it? I wouldn't
know what kind of reports clouds, time areas thirty one me neither. There
were seven one golf. If it was anybody a U above us to pass
us, like thirty seconds ago, we were sending one top of golf negative,
Okay, OFFI the UFO. Yeah, it's murder two nine o'clock.
Yes, I'll just passed over God. I don't know what it was,
but it's from at least to three thousand feet above us. See, I
passed out over the top of US ninety one one. Guy, you just
called up to me? The four they're after staying the airplanes he is to
god more calm on an unidentified object every liberty four call or calm on an
unidentified flying object. A Welcome to UFO Chronicles a place where people share their
experiences of the strange and unexplained. If you've had an encounter, I would
like to be on the show. You can email me at UFO Chronicles at
gmail dot com. Hello everyone, and welcome to the show. How are
you all doing this week? I am the counter and this is a UFO
Chronicles podcast. California is our destination to night as we hear from James and
he has been the experience of probably as early as six years old and has
had several abduction encounters and recalls being taken on a regular basis. James is
up next, but first, if you enjoyed a show and you would like
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UFO Chronicles podcast. You can also find a link in the description of this
episode. Any help is very much appreciated. Now on the show, Hello
Jim, welcome to the show. Well, thank you very much, very
happy to be here. It is great to have you with us today.
And you're calling from sunny California, well reading the California today, but normally
Sonny, what's the chance raindy California? Okay, Now, do you have
some experiences you're going to be sharing with us? Would you like to start
at the beginning, please sir. Yeah, I sort of call myself just
a typical experience er because we've all had, you know, similarities between their
experiences. Mine started. My first remember one was when I was five and
a half reears old. We were out on a family parcel of about twenty
eight where the family homestead burned down a few years before, and we were
building a cabin there, a sort of rough house, you know, not
a when you live in all the time, when it was more like camping,
and we were sitting outside it was oh, let's see, probably I
don't know. I was five and a half, so that would have been
fifty eight. All the adults and the teenagers looked down. I was a
hyperactive five and a half year old, and so they told me to start
looking for snake. And so I was watching the sky and that kept me
occupied for a while. It was a weekend before I started kindergarten, as
one of the reasons I remember it so well. And all of a sudden
we had this object flying above a past year next to where we were.
There about seven or eight of it, and it was, oh, maybe
five hundred to one thousand feet away from us, A five year old desired
to estimate, but it was stuff sparks, and the field was dry because
it was the end of the summer and nothing was starting on fire. And
I remember looking up at my dad and my uncle and aunt and their kids,
and they were just staring at it with their mouths open, just frozen,
sort of like a Steven Spielberg movie when they you know, he always
was good at showing average looking people in unusual situations. And that's the last
I remember. And the next morning, you know, getting out of bed,
and we all come out and sit around the ramp fire while the adults
are drinking coffee and we're drinking water, and the adults are all talking about
the comet. We saw how amazing it was, and not knowing anything different,
I thought a comet was something, you know, the size of a
full moon five hundred feet away, you know, throwing sparks off. And
I actually talked to Colonel Halt, who was in Rendelsom Forest, because what
it looked like was a lot like what he described, and they were all
talking about the comet, and so everyone packed up and we had the head
back into town. Next morning, I'm starting kindergarten and I asked my dad
what he thought of the comment. So I brought that up again and he
said, what comment? O, what you're talking about? And no one
else had any memory of it except me, And I must have had missing
time, because I go from watching my family to waking up next morning,
and that stuck with me. And I remember in school about comments, and
always in the back of my mind is that didn't make sense. And I
remember a comment when I was in college was visible and I looked up at
it and I was so depointed, and I got to thinking, how the
heck could I think of a comet could fly over a cow past here?
I don't know, And so I never figured that out. So I as
kid, I had a lot of strange experiences where my parents took me to
the doctor because I was a sleepwalker, and I'd end outside and knocking the
door to be let back in. And so I don't remember too many experiences
around there. But when I was seventeen, I was playing basketball with some
friends over the backyard and walk back home and decided, you know, I'm
just going to go lay in the park. And so I go and lay
down in a park. But the funny thing about is I'm laying down where
they're planting grass, and the head I'm laying on pete moss, which is
really stupid when you're sweaty after playing basketball. And I look up in the
sky, perfectly clear night, and I see this. You know, a
lot of stars in the sky, so the sky is black, but it's
not black. And I see this lenticular shaped object just above a hillside,
about five miles from the house where a daytime airport was. And I'm thinking,
that's a weird time for a plane to be flying, especially one with
no lights. I realized it's moving too slow. It must be a helicopter,
and it started heading towards Los Angeles. I was living in a suburb
of Los Angeles called San Dimas, made famous by Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure.
So I start I'm watching this object and it stands out because it's darker
than than the background. And I'm thinking to myself, it's not a plane.
It's not a helicopter. I would hear it because I'm close enough,
and it's so quiet, you know, I'm thinking, I'm not talking out
loud. I say to myself, it must be a you. Oh,
And before I even finish the Oh, it just all of a sudden does
the streedge thirty three or so turned towards me and starts descending in a straight
line right towards me, and I lose it for a second, but then
reacquire it. There are very few things I remember as well as this,
and it ends up above me, and I reached down pepper rock that was
like one of those rocks it fits around your fingerpicked and you keep it a
curd pond and throw it straight up above me, and the rock nearly hits
me in the head and falls down. And so it must have been above
seventy five feet because I could have thrown the rock that far, and when
it's right above, it's about thirty If it was one hundred feet up,
it was thirty feet across. But it was a perfectly ray from the side.
It was just it looked articular. And then all of a sudden,
I'm watching it goes over me, and it goes over the mountain in the
direction north of LA And so I go home, don't mention my parents,
go right to bed, wake up the next day, and I'm all excited,
but I know I've seen something, but I forgot about it for a
while, and fifty years later, fifty five years later, I think it
was I get regressed by Von Smith and before I went to the right,
she runs this clost Encounters Resource organization in Los Angeles, and just before I
drove to her office from where I live in San Diego, I went by
the work and I'm standing there thinking it went straight over my head and I
just watched it go, and then I realized it went over a water tower
this to my right. How could that be? So she does the regression,
I don't recover any memories. I'm blocked about the actual I see everything
in perfect detail up until the time it gets over my head, and then
the next thing I see it head off. But the one thing I realized
from the regression wasn't seeing anything like nonter trial is or anything. What the
regression and the abilities in order to recall told me is I I'm facing one
way, and then a millisecond later, I'm facing a totally different direction.
And so in my mind's eye when I think about it, it was going
directly behind me in a straight line, but actually it stopped above me and
then made a turn to the right. I was like they put me back
facing a different direction. And then through high school and the rest of high
school and college, I really didn't have any experiences, but sort of stopped
there. That's when I started having these things. And those two instances really
stuck out a lot of my close friends. I swore I never talked to
anyone about it, but a few of my college friends, mostly my college
friends were a little older than me that went to Vietnam and came back and
then went to college. A couple of them said, yeah, you talk
about it all the time, and I really don't remember, you know,
discussing it much. But once I got into my about my mid thirties,
then experiences started accelerating up through my mid forties. When I was thirty nine,
I was appointed City Attorney of Fresno, California, and it's a big
job, and so I was very concentrated on it. It had a lot
of additional political problems. After I was hired, A lot of people got
elected to the council that were corrupt, and so I was constantly battling with
them, and it was a very tough job. I had a large staff
was worried about, but they didn't seem to care the entities that were dealing
with me, because I started being taken sometimes two, three times a week.
And what really stood out to me wasn't so much any experience I had,
but the after effects I'd have when i'd come back. One night,
I'm walking after a city council meeting in a summer night when it's cooler.
In Presdo is a hot place. I started noticing that every time I walked
under a street light, it would go off and it was pitch dark.
And this happened twenty street lamps in a row. And if that doesn't unnerve
you, I don't know. And then I started having paranormal experiences too,
ghosts. One time, I'm walking on the sidewalk in front of my house
and I'm not living in an old house. I'm living in a tract home
that was built in nineteen ninety one, it was or ninety eighty nine,
it was like nineteen ninety five, ninety six. I'm walking along the sidewalk
just to get a little fresh air, and this guy in a gray nineteen
forty suit pushes past me. He doesn't touch me, but it's like he's
trying to push me and just is annoyed, walks away, and then he
totally disappears. It just vanishes, but like I was in his way and
he was trying to go, and he just kept walking and was upset with
me. And we had people who would come dogs sit for us while we
were out of town, and a couple that would do it a lot finally
said, we're not doing it anymore. We're retired of too many weird things
happen in your house. You know, TV's turning on three o'clock in the
morning. They didn't do that to us, but they did to people that
stayed there. So I had a lot of paranormal experiences at the time,
and I had one instance that particularly stood out. I left the City of
Fresno. I was at a council meeting in a rural community and it was
the week before the election. And usually that you know, the city manager
puts non controversial items on because you don't want to create problems for the you
know, before the voting starts for your council members. But this was a
very contentious meeting, and I remember all about it. And then I drove
home and I got home late, maybe midnight, and so I went in
the walk in closet and changed into what I was wearing to bed so I
wouldn't wake my wife up, and then I hit the pillow fall asleep.
The next thing I remember, I'm standing on the sidewalk out front of the
house. It's about ten twelve degrees or forty in fahrenheit somewhere around there forty
five fifty and the wind was blowing across, and I was in boxer shorts
and T shirt. And as soon as I came awake or became aware where
I was, I said to them out loud, so that's what they looked
like. And so I look at the front door and I go, I've
got to remember all this. And at the time I was saying this,
there was a bright, whiter than sunlight above my head. Yet I didn't
look up. I was walking along thinking to myself, I've got to remember
all this. And so I remember the hairs of my legs blowing and they
were cold. I remember taking steps in the barefoot on the cemit walkway,
and I remember going up and reaching the door handle and thinking, God,
I hope this thing's open. And I walked into the house and go to
bed. And the next morning I didn't have to work, and I actually
taken off two weeks because with the election and the follow up, there weren't
going to be any council meetings, and so I had scheduled two legal seminars
out of town and had all my clients, you know, realizing because back
then I can't I think I had a primitive cell phone, but it was
hard to get in touch with people back then. And so the next morning
I woke up and the entire room was not spinning. It was like it
was going from left or right across my field division and then jump back to
the beginning. And this kept up, and within an hour, I probably
threw up about two hundred times, and my wife got me into our doctor
on an emergency basis that morning, just in his office, he said that
I probably had a virus or got a blow to the head. And I
didn't say to him, you know, I just got dropped off by a
spaceship, you know, being a city attorney and doing working for politicians,
you don't say things like that, even to your doctor or anyone at that
point. And so for the next two weeks, I wasn't I couldn't drive,
I took any nausea medication and eventually it went away, and it was
something in my inner ear. The doctor said either it, like I said,
either a virus or a blow to the head. And so about two
weeks later I was starting to regain my focus and I noticed that I had
two scars right here, perfectly formed that I never had before, deep scars.
You know, I had no idea where they came from. I have
a similar scar on the other side that's not nearly as deep, and it's
taken seventy one years to form. This one just appeared overnight, and so
it always stuck with me. I just never figured out what happened. I
had a good suspicion, but why would they got my head open there?
And so I was regressed by Von Smith, you know, about twenty thirty
years later on this, and I actually saw something because I've been regressed several
times, and you know, if on jokes that I'm a lawyer and so
I'm I'm not used to taking directions, I get a lot before and after.
But in this case, I actually got a little bit. During what
I think was my abduction, my body basically it came from the head down
to the toe, just froze, you know, and I couldn't move,
but I could move my eyelids a little little bit, and they were closed,
but the light I could see a light in a room, and so
I struggled to just barely open my eyes, and I saw the top half
of an entity, maybe an inch or so from my face, staring right
at me, and it had the typical big almond eyes wrap around like wrap
around sunglasses. And then it moved back, and then there was some sort
of boomerang type object that I could just see a shadow of with my eyes
closed in intense light where you can see through your eyelids, you know,
like looking into a bright light. And when this, when I saw this,
it was this boomerang was like moving in a circular pattern one direction.
And then after a couple of minutes, I saw it again and it was
moving the opposite direction, and so I really couldn't figure but it was right
over at the spot where I ended up seeing the scars later and with Vaughan.
After I had the regression, I went home, drove back down to
San Diego from her office in Laceagnata, near Los Angeles, and I decided,
you know, I wanted to read something. I was too wound up
to go to sleep, so I went in. I had just finished a
book and didn't have a new one. This is the before kindle. So
what I did is I went into my bookshelf with a lot of these books
that are behind me right now on UFOs, and I looked for bookmarks,
because a lot of times I would read a book and then stop and buy
another one and never finish the first one. And so I saw one.
It was Whitley Strieber's Communion Letters and had a bookmark in it. So I
just picked it up and started reading from where the bookmark was, and so
I read about three pages, and that helped put me. This relaxed me,
and I went to sleep, and so I read to the end of
a chapter, and then the next morning I took it to breakfast with me
to read. And the next chapter was about a guy who wrote to Whitley
to tell him he had had a weird experience where he was taken he was
frozen. He saw a boomerang shaped object go one direction and it pulled open
his scalp and they dropped some crystals or something that looked, you know,
like an emerald or something like that into the whole the hole that they'd made
in his head, and then they waved the wand back and in that recovered
that put his skin back in perfect place. He asked Whitley of it,
and had ever heard of that? And I'm gobsmacked at that point because I
looked at the bookmark, because I always like to use I used to use
re seats for bookmarks, and I had bought the book a year before I
had the incident in nineteen ninety seven. The incident was in nineteen ninety eight,
but I had stopped reading the chapter before, and so I was reading
it for the first time, and the guy had the same experience I had.
He had a little more detail, and so that one has probably stood
out more than any I've ever had. So we moved to San Diego,
and that didn't stop the experiences. We live out in the country in rural
San Diego County, and you know, they always have your forwarding address,
they always know where you are. And so I had a lot of incidents,
but they started to change somewhat. I would have more sort of symbolic
things happen. Like a couple of examples, I'm with a group of SERO
members from LA at the International UFO Conference in Arizona, and we're all sitting
around outside of the facility and the dark, you know, in chairs,
and I'd snuck a bottle of wine down from my room because of the bar
stop serving people outside, and so we're all having a great time, and
then we all go to bed excited about the next day's program. The next
day, every member of our group had something weird happen, and it was
interesting because when they knew the time, it was like we each had fifteen
minute ingrements. My instance was I was laying in bed and it was about
three point thirty. I want to say three thirty three because that happens a
lot, but I can't remember the exact time, but it was about three
thirty and between myself where IM laying in bed and the TV. Not in
the TV, a three dimensional, oblong object just appeared in front of me
and had sort of like a mist of light. It sort of formed into
a circle and then it showed and then all of a sudden it appeared and
I could have reached out and touched it, but I was just amazed because
it was like right at the foot of my bed up in the air was
like a two foot domino, but on the top half of the domino it
had a classic UFO, you know, it's lenticular shape. It had like
a light beam cut into the sort of the metallic looking domino, going down
and pointing down, and then into the second half of the domino like object,
there was a DNA strand. But instead of the normal number of DNA
you know, ribbons or whatever they are, there were hundreds of them.
And I said to myself, I've got to remember this. I've got to
this means something. I need to remember this, and I just kept saying
that to myself and the bottom half of the domino disappeared. Top half stayed
there for a few seconds. As soon as the bottom half disappeared, I
forgot everything that it was accepted. It was shaped like around the laser beam
or whatever it was. The DNA strands had some message and I totally forgot
where it was immediately. And other people, one couple had a bunch of
rocks that they their kids have been playing with, and when they came back
out, they were all piled in a stack. Now that could have been
anyone, but we all had something happen weird, and a lot of us,
frankly, theyver talked to each other again. Afterwards we sort of separated,
not everyone in the group, but a lot of us, you know,
sort of left the group. And it was it was interesting how that
happened. But I've had a couple of times with symbols like that, and
it always starts with sort of an oblong shaped object. I've even had a
paranormal experience like this one time and then something appears out of it. So
and so something was told to me, and Ivonne used to say, when
the time comes, you'll remember when you need to know, you will,
and she's here that for many experiences, and so had that, and then
a lot of my experiences, I'd say lately skipping ahead are more synchronistic things
or more you know, coincidences, that kind of thing. Like one time
I was laying in bed reading a book called Owls and Synchronicity by Mike Cleveland,
and my wife goes, what are you reading? And I said,
a book about owls and synchronicity. What's that? Well, it's sort of
how ols tend to be involved in a lot of paranormal activity. And as
soon as I start talking about it, an owl on our roof right above
us starts hooting, and then at the other end of the house, cornered
from where we're sleeping, another owl starts hooting back to them, and it
goes back and forth for about five minutes. And that's never we have owls
around here. But I've never had that kind of behavior before, and it
was right whenever I was talking about owls and sicker in his city. Are
you intrigued by paranormal talk radio? You love the new Paranormal Radio app from
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iOS app Store. Probably my most eventful series of paranormal experiences happened in twenty
nineteen. I was a bunch of us in zero decided to go up to
Pine Ridge, South Dakota, to the Igalassiu Reservation. There go to a
consciousness seminar. It was rough facilities, It was a lot of fun.
We most of us slept in a bunk house, co ed bunk house,
and people from all over the country, and it was very nice and I
can't think of a person that didn't have a paranormal experience there. Whitley Strieber
was one of the presenters. He was there too, and he's talked about
his shows a lot. The people I met that I was closest to during
those three days I'm still friends with today. One of my experiences was it
wasn't I didn't. A lot of people saw UFOs. I didn't see one
of those. But on the last night, Whitley was talking after dinner.
It was a Sunday night, and I was sitting at the door wondering when
it's going to start. It was a little disorganized, and the head of
the house, Dallas Chief Eagle, was sitting on the other side of the
door from me, and Whitley walked past us put his leather jacket down right
next to me. The screen door was shut on the on the place,
but all of a sudden, coming through the door and flying in sort of
a looping pattern, was a white moth. And while most of the people
were you know, would hang with each other. I sort of hung out
warnings, you know, and around, you know, times when things were
happening or people were gathering. I would sit with the locals who were working
the event, and we'd sit out and they'd drink coffee and smoke cigarettes,
and we'd talk about, you know, how the leaves turn. And I
grew up in the country, so we had a lot in common. So
I had more fun doing that other than the paranormal stuff. So I got
used to seeing the types of animals and insects or around there. And I'd
never seen a white moth like this. And it flew in this up and
down pattern, and it when it got leather jacket, it just disappeared.
Throw my mouth open and can't believe it. And I turn over the Dallas
Chief Ehicle, who was a pretty mellow person and not one to you know,
display a lot of emotion around strangers, and he said, did you
see it too? And what he saw is this moth flying that he a
kind that he'd never seen before, and he sought fly into Whitley's jacket.
I saw it disappeared just before, but we were at different angles, and
so we're sitting there trying to figure out what happened. Whitley comes, picks
up his jacket, puts it on, walks up to the front where he's
going to give his presentation, and says, let me start by showing a
short video. And he shows a video from some holiday event his website group
or his employees or helpers all had and his wife hand had died that year.
And so the video he's showing is a white moth coming doing the same
pattern I saw flying through the room. And then planeted itself on a particular
individual that Anne Streeper had liked a lot. You know, there was you
know, he was very helpful to her, and he was Jeremy Valarry I
think his name is, and so. And then they showed two or three
more videos with the same white moth flying in the same pattern that other friends
of Whitley had seen. They took the picture of you know, like took
their cell phone cameras and took picture of it, sent it to him and
said, you're not gonna believe me, Whitley, but this is Anne sending
me a message. And so I never talked to Whitley about it. You
know a lot of you know, when someone's famous like that. At an
event like that, they get crowded around, and having worked for politicians,
I know to keep my distance from people and let them have their own space.
So that was probably one of the more interesting things that's happened to me,
even though it was just you know, some people say, well,
it's just an insect. I think after Anstreebwerd passed, I think she was
a very big help on the aside to Whitley, Yeah, I agree.
Yeah, I'm a subscriber to his, but I'm not a big watcher of
those kinds of programs, so I tend to rotate around my subscriptions and watch
them for three or four times and then go back to reading. I can
read faster than I can listen to people talk. Yeah, he's talked about
it often. I've been meaning to get him on the show for years.
The biggest problem is obviously extraordinarily busy in any case, but because this show
basically runs on emails, so as people reaching out to me, so it
leaves me very little time or space to actually reach out to people. It
does happen now and again, but I remember right into Whitley because of the
Communion book I think it was nineteen ninety two or nineteen ninety three, and
it was to do with my father's experiences. So I'd written to Whitley and
I still have the same book I had all those years ago, and I
actually got a reply. It was a type to reply. It was just
basically saying that we've received the experiences and we've now added them to the I
think it was the Communion Foundation, which was a group of scientists that were
processing all this this information. And I still have that same letter after all
these years as a bookmark in the book. So when I do eventually get
Whitley on, I will ask him, you know, whatever become of the
foundation, I think that as files are at RICE to University in Houston,
Texas, that's my memory of where they are. Okay to look into that,
and that is that selective? Do you know? No, there are
several universities that actually have RICE has that. And I also actually did have
Mike on as well, the owl guy. He's likes to be known,
and it was good having him on because after that I'd have people saying where
can I contact Mike? I too have been seeing hours I've had this happen
and so it's great having Mic on and all the synchronisties, which is a
recurring theme in all this, as well as the symbols. I think it's
a good way if is communication is exactly what it is. Do you recall
any of the messages they were trying to relate to you? I know you
said it will. If it hasn't, it may come to you in the
future. But is Do you believe there's any particular reason you were in contact?
Yes, I think the purpose for me is to continue to go Congress
into doing something about the UAP. I honestly think that My sixty fifth birthday
was December sixteenth, twenty seventeen. That's the day the Politico in the New
York Times released the three videos that luel Azando got declassified. An interesting time
for me because for twenty five years I had told people that when I retire,
I was going to write a book about California election law, because there
is no guide to how to handle election cases in California, which is a
very You know, California is bigger than a lot of countries, and from
watching the US from Afar, you can tell that we have a lot of
really bad election attorneys, and so that was my goal always to do that.
And this my birthday, my sixty fifth birthday, had this event basically
changed everything and we've been living with it ever since. And as soon as
that happened, a switch flipped in me and I started writing my current book
about the Robertson panel and how the debunking started against people that study UFOs or
have not just lights in the sky but structured craft pictures, that kind of
thing. And I worked on that for up until twenty twenty, and then
in June or twenty twenty, the Senate Intelligence Committee, through its chair Marco
Rubio, the Republican from Florida, asked the Office of the Director of National
Intelligence to give them an update on what they're doing, what's going on about
UAP. And once that came out, I dropped my book and started writing
another book, which I finished in six months from start to finish, called
the UFO Briefing Book, Congressional Guide to the UAP Phenomenon, and I had
itself published, but my purpose wasn't to sell books, and so what I
did is I bought three hundred copies and sent over two hundred to Congress,
to members of the National Security Committees sent them each one and a follow up
letter, and then I sent about fifty or seventy five to the press,
which was a total waste of time. And I got it published and sent
to Congress by the end of April two thousand and twenty one. And then
the report, the UAP report from the UAP Task Scores, through the Office
of the Director of National Intelligence, was distributed, and so I gave them
sort of a here's what's going to happen. They're gonna slow walk everything.
They're gonna delay. They're not gonna tell you everything. You're gonna have to
find it for yourself. You're gonna have to do things like, you know,
make special provisions to protect whistle blowers. You're gonna have to make special
provisions to require them to start releasing UFO documents. You have to have special
protections. You have to set up a procedure. And so I used my
government background to come up with the things they needed to do. Now I'm
talking about the book. Farmer retired city manager who read it for me,
who has no interest in the field. After he finished it, he said,
Jim, that's just one hundred and twenty eight page staff report, you
know, And the joke has always been I just crossed out wastewater treatment plant
and put in UAP. So the legislation largely follows what I was recommending.
Now I'm talking about the book. It really I never did a kindle version.
I went on two podcasts and found it to be a waste of time.
I wasn't going to because it was written more in bureaucrat ease, and
the goal was to move the ball, because we don't till recently, there
are no think tanks, there's no political platform for UAP for either party,
there's no academic institutions to write about it, and so why not me.
I was a pretty good writer as a you know, writing staff reports,
appellet briefs, those kinds of legal documents. But I tried to draft something
with an audience in mind of about two hundred people. And so I sent
that out and never heard a word back. But I sent a copy to
Harry Reid. He was retired, and it was about three months before he
passed away, and he sent me an encouraging note saying that he was he
thought the book was done well and that he would thank my interest in this
vital subject and that was my big Now it's funny. I've written other letters
to Congress where people will send me, please send this form of letter to
Congress. And so I've done the generic form letter that people do and I've
gotten responses from Congress on those. Thank you for your response, and it's
always Diane Feinstein, the late senator from California, came up with the form
letter on UAP, and now every Congressman and senator has some variation of it.
And so being working in politics for forty years, you can spot a
form letter pretty quickly, and so I've gotten those, but I've through other
sources. I've heard that it had some influence, but the President doesn't call
me. But but I'm happy they're moving the right direction. Whether I had
anything to do with it or not. I did go back to my original
book and that's the one that's out now. Just came out and it's called
threat to the Body Politic, food Fighters to UAP. Threat to the Body
Politic is a shortened version of a quote out of the Robertson Panels report that
interest in UFO study is a threat to the protective organs of the body politic
and that's what gave license to them, recommending that UFO groups be watched and
that the national security agencies should be given the authority to take away the aura
that is around that the subject has unfortunately required. And so I was reading
lots of books about the Robertson panel, but they're all about how they got
it wrong, that UFOs are real, but no one looked at the civil
liberties aspects of it. Because what I did is I trapped down through declassified
records. I tracked down many instances where people would take a picture of UFO
and it wasn't just any old UFO as one where a great picture up close,
that kind of thing. One example, in nineteen sixty, a guy
named Joseph Perry, who owned a pizza parlor in Flint, Michigan, was
an amateur astronomer, and he took twenty pictures of the Moon one night in
winter, clear winter night, which is great for skywatching. I guess eighteen
of them were overexposed. One showed a picture of the moon, and according
to the FBI files, one showed a unusual object that was somewhere between his
telescope and the surface of the Moon. Is how they described it and it
was basically a classic flying saucer. So Joseph Perry didn't know what he had
filmed, wasn't interested in UFOs. Was ran a pizza parlor, You probably
didn't have time to watch the news. So he took the picture in and
ordered around a few of his customers and they said, that's a UFO and
he goes, really, well, I better do something about that. So
what he did is he went straight to the FBI office, the local FBI
office in Detroit, and gave it to them and said, please take this
to the proper authorities, and I want my picture back unless they tell me
it's top secret. So the local FBI office, what they did is they
sent it over to Selfridge Air Force Base, which is the nearest Air Force
base to the office, the Air Force Office of Intelligence OSI it's called.
So somehow, through one of his customers, it got into the news and
they contacted him, and so he told the local paper about it. So
Project blue Book at the time had a newspaper clipping service, and so they
would look at newspapers from around the country. The one hundred and fifty eight
newspapers on the clipping service, and that was before the Internet, and they
would literally clip out articles and send it to the subscriber on the subject they
wanted. And so it got out in the paper, and so all of
a sudden, nicap and a bunch of UFO as Perry called them, societies
came to talk to him interviewing and they all told him, you'll never get
your pictures back. So he wrote a letter to President Eisenhower asking that the
President make sure he gets his pictures back. Well, that created a big
kerfuffle within eight days of him sending a letter from Detroit to Washington, d
C. It went from the President's office to Jangar Hoover's desk in eight days,
and Hoover wrote to the local FBI office and asked to be kept the
prize. And so in the FBI files there are like twenty different documents about
ten or twelve memos that went from the local office on a almost daily basis
just to Jaugar Hoover, nobody else keeping him apprize what was going on.
And eventually Hoover wrote directly to Joe Perry saying, we've done everything we can.
The Air Force has your photo, please contact them from now on,
and he took that and thanked the director wrote back and thanked the director and
that it's all in the declassified files and the Air Force has nothing in its
files about it. That was part of They had a program to basically find
out through newspaper articles where good UFO pictures were taken. Air Force officers would
show up take the pictures in the originals. And this is post World War
two where people had real trust in the government, pre Vietnam War, pre
Watergate, and so people just turn you know, people with They all had
something in common. I have several chapters on this. They had no interest
in the subject ahead a time. They wanted to get their pictures to the
authorities so the government could figure out what was going on. They would turn
them over and never get them back, and if they complained, they were
called hoaxters. So it was pretty much a common plan. They don't need
that today because today all you have to do is some skeptic has to just
post something and says photoshop, and everyone assumes the pictures aren't real. And
the better the pictures are of a UFO, more likely they're not real.
Technology's done the Air Force's job, and so I go through some of the
other stuff like that. But I wanted to use my legal experience and my
knowledge of government records and procedures to try to explain what was behind the Robertson
Panel and why they did it, and what the result was. One document
I found was drafted about fifteen days after the Robertson Panel met. The Robertson
Panel finished on January seventeenth, nineteen fifty three. January twentieth, nineteen fifty
three, Eisenhower took the oath of office on January thirtieth. The first meeting
about what happened with the Robertson Panel took place on something called the One Committee,
was basically the CIA's committee that they helped reject what's going to happen in
the future. And they had a bunch of CIA staffers, a retired general
unnamed and retired ambassador, and a gentleman named doctor Edgar Hoover, which is
J. Edgar Hoover. That was on January thirtieth. By February sixth,
the FBI office in Los Angeles sent an FBI agent to meet with a rocket
scientist at North American Aviation and that rocket scientist was not your typical rocket scientist.
He was like the assistant of Verner von Braun building the V two rocket.
He was brought over to the US by the CIA in Operation paper Clip,
and he ran a program on rocketry at North American Aviation. In his
spare time he worked for volunteer for an organization called Civilian Soccer Investigators of Los
Angeles, and they applied scientific principles to the study of UFOs. They had
a lot of members that were scientists and engineers at North America and the other
defense contractors, and in fact the scientists worked on was a source for a
story in Life magazine, the picture magazine that was on people's coffee tables and
America in the fifties and sixties. And what they came up with was a
story There was the Case for Extraterrestrial Visitation, and that was the name of
the story, and on the cover of one of the issues in their right
hand corner was a reference to that article on what page it was in.
On the cover of that edition was Marilyn Monroe. It was the biggest selling
Life magazine ever and it wasn't for the UFO story, but it had a
big circulation, and so cs ISLA got an international following, and people kept
sending this is a mom and pop organization formed around kitchen tables, and they
got a reputation because they were one of the first that applied scientific principles to
the study on the other side, so the Robertson panel had listed them as
one of the two organizations that need to be watched, and they used the
term watched. And so when they met with this scientist, he was told
that it would be a professional embarrassment for him by the FBI agent and that
he should stop this hobby of his within by within three days, he wrote,
this agent wrote a memo to the Office of Scientific Intelligence OSI and the
CIA, no copies to anyone else. An FBI agent just writing directly to
the CIA, to the group in charge of UFO issues at a time when
them being in charge was only known within the CIA. And so they have
the contact memo that explains what was done by the FBI to stop this guy.
And so this guy left the group, so did the rest of the
scientists and engineers because they were all worried about their security clearances. They didn't
want to meet with an FBI agent. The FBI's role with classifications is they
can remove your classification, you know, if they make your recommendation to do
so, so you could lose your life as a scientist or an engineer.
So within a year CSILA disappeared. It just folded up and stopped doing it,
which left the field pretty much with UFO clubs, Safcier clubs versus the
Air Force's explanation, and so little steps like that created big holes in the
UFO community. So that's why I wanted to write the book to talk about
just the civil rights aspects of that, because in America we have a First
Amendment, and under the First Amendment, people have a freedom of association right.
In other words, to engage in free speech, you have to be
able to talk to other people who you get to associate with, and how
is up to you. Unless you're plotting to bomb something or do something illegal,
you have an absolute right to choose what you believe. And so what
they've done is they took this scientist and took away his rights and other scientists
to associate with people on the subject they wanted to associate about. And so
when other people look at this and think of UFOs, and I'm thinking of
what violations of law occurred because I practiced constitutional law for decades and it just
stuck out to me as a sore thumb. So that's pretty much what my
book's about, with a little bit about today's how yesterday has created the stigma
that exists today in the intransigence of the Air Force CIA in particular to keep
their secrets to themselves. And it Syney makes you wonder, you know how
far they've actually gone to keep this secret. You know, there's there's been
many stories over the years. And of course this store didn't begin in twenty
seventeen. You know a lot of people which to the subject this dates back
James. For people to interest in your book, where can they get copies?
Amazon? Pretty much, let's see UK, Europe, US, Canada,
New Zealand and Australia at bookstores there you can order them or just order
them on Amazon. I'm supposed to have a kindle version. I've been waiting
three weeks for it to pop up. I know a gentleman in a giglin,
Steve Aspen, wrote a book and it took him. It took Amazon
three months to post it. He wrote a UFO book, and so sometimes
those things tend to happen. As my children say, operating error and Jim
is synonymous. Too many people have had strange events like that. But the
book is you can order it, you know, online and or order it
through your local bookstore. And James, you also have a website. Yes,
that's JPL. You fo dot com. JPL's my I'm James Patrick Low,
so I don't get sued for copyright with the Jet Propulsion Lab, which
I used to live next to or near. On that website, I do
blogs. Luckily, my son is very tech savvy and he's mading. He's
made it look presentable because it was pretty much hilarious before and so he's straightened
out. But right now I'm doing a series. I'm not selling anything in
the website. I'm doing a series of blogs on congressional interest in this and
how they should do it. Right now, I've started a series. Just
before we came on, I was finishing up my third in the series,
and it's about how disclosures should happen through Congress. You know, a lot
of people in the UFO community say that government will never do anything that it's
going to come from the people. But from my perspective, it's in government
right now, they hold the keys, and I'm going to do my best
to give them examples to use to put forward to how to make it public.
Because to me, the discovery that we're being visited by non humanities from
other dimensions, I call it non terrestrial because I don't we don't know it's
extraterrestrial. We don't know if they're from another planet or another dimension, or
another time or whatever. So I usually use the term non terrestrial. But
that will be very How that gets unfolded is going to be very important,
because you and I talk and your listeners, you know, they're pretty savvy
about this stuff, or else they wouldn't be listening to this or else they're
learning about it, but the average person doesn't know. And there were Having
worked with politicians and also representative political campaigns and initiatives ballot measures, I've done
a lot of work with polling companies because a lot of times candidates or interest
groups that want to push a particular ballot measure for a community will hire polsters,
and they'll want the attorney who's going to draft whatever language they're working on
or help with the platform of the candidate to make sure it's legal would have
me at these meeting with their polsters, and so I learned a lot about
polling doing that kind of work, and also I done one of my specialties
was election law. The thing is is that there's been recent polling and it's
starting to really matter. An organization called Yugov, which does really quality,
in September of twenty twenty two, put out a poll that had a question
that is the government hiding anything about extraterrestrials? Well, they're two poles,
okay. One was are there extraterrestrials nonterrestrial beings on visiting planet Earth? One
third, roughly, you know, within the margin of error, roughly one
third of the respondents said yes. One third of the respondents said no because
the government would tell us, and one third said they didn't know. So,
no matter what they come up with, two thirds of the people are
going to have a problem with it. It's not going to meet their pre
existing knowledge. Fifty six percent in another poll by Yugov, in fifty seven
by another polling firm within a year of that, say that the American government
is hiding something the people. So if it's going to be rolled out,
they've got to be very careful how they do it. Do you have an
interest in the paranormal, then you'll love the unexnetwork dot com. The X
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My blogs are sort of laying out the process that they should do.
First, thing's got to be bipartisan. If you have one party the other
rolled it out, the other side is going to immediately assume it's not true.
If they haven't rolled out from the CIA or the Air Force, no
one's going to believe them. But if you have a bipartisan membership in Congress,
which won this issue, we have that pretty much. There's been some
bumps, but they consider considering. They change speakers three times in a year.
You know, those bumps are minor compared to what's going on right now.
But you've got a majority in both houses that are interested in this.
And the amazing thing about it, with the overwhelming votes for this so far
when it's been attached to either defense bills or Intelligence authorization bills, is that
the rank and file members of Congress are voting overwhelmingly to support this. There
hasn't until this year, there hasn't been one attempt to water down what is
brought forward by these committees. And that shows that ranked file members may not
know what they're seeing in closed doors, but they trust the particular members of
those committees that are in their party. And so this has come up an
unusual way. Usually issues like this come up through the grassroots with thousands of
letters. A think tank issues a policy memoranda that this has to be done.
Parties adopted or oppose it. You know, that's how things come up.
This didn't follow that trend. This came up totally based on what the
members, particularly of the Senate Intelligence Committee, or learning behind closed doors.
I sort of consider it think about John Mack wrote just wonderful books about the
abduction phenomena or experiences as I like to use this term. And one of
the things he talks about another psychologists and psychiatrists have too, is the ontological
shock that when you're an experiencer and you finally quit the excuses and figure out
it's really happening to you, you know, your entire worldview is shattered.
And that's the term for that is ontological shock. Well, that can apply
to members of Congress. You're getting reports from navy pilots saying, we're seeing
things you've never seen before, and if they attack us, we lose,
We lose right away. But they're not attacking us. They're basically playing cat
and mouse, and and it just keeps going on and it doesn't stop.
So you can really tell just by the way they talk in Congress who's seen
the videos and who hasn't. People like Mitt Romney, Kristen gillibrand, Mark
Warner, Marco Rubio, you can tell when they talk. A couple of
the senators living Mitt Romney were caught by a tabloid, one of those tabloid
TV shows where they came out and we're just walking down the street and they
walk up and stick a camera in their face and a microphone, and what
about UFOs? Mitt Romney's three four years ago said they're not from here,
They're from someplace else. They're not telling us the truth. Now, that
didn't get much coverage, but as a former presidential candidate. Another former presidential
candidate, Dennis Kucinch back in I think it was the nineteen eighties, was
running for president and one of the questions he got at a forum televised forum
was have you seen a UFO? Because Shirley McClain had written about one that
Dennis Gussini saw visiting her house and it destroyed its campaign. So why would
they pick up this subject? And it's interesting that it's bipartisan because you know,
if you're going to jump off a bridge into the unknown, would you
like to have the other side with you? I mean, you don't want
to do it by yourself. You don't want to be the one that jumps
off and everyone's standing up above laughing at you and pointing. So it's,
you know, hang together or hang separately. As was said by a patriot
during the Revolutionary War, who I can't Patrick Hale, there's something going on
behind the scenes. That's much more than you know now. David Grush talked
to them. Have been more whistleblowers talking to them, a lot of them
retired who don't have anything. And see, in the past, if you
came forward, you were on an island. Bob Sallas, a friend of
mine, was a nuclear launch officer in the sixties Air Force Academy graduate and
a UFO showed up over their facility. The security crew called down and said,
we've got an orange UFO about forty five feet across right above us.
Should we shoot? He thought they were joking, people who normally don't joke,
and when the ICBMs the they were controlling started going offline one after another,
they realized it was real. Well, Bob went on Larry King Live
in the nineteen nineties and told that story, and he was literally on an
island. No one in Congress would touch it. Well, things are different
today. People are touching it. And I see it as not only a
way to release the information in a manner that will help people along, because
I really don't care about the UFO community. They're going to know, you
know, they're going to be pulling people. Why don't you do this faster.
But it's the people that don't know, they're going to have to be
convinced. And so I'm hoping, you know, writing these blogs. You
know what I'm gonna do is I did this with Bob a couple of years
back. We group papers, we wrote together and sent them to Congress,
and so we sent probably twenty twenty VI papers to Congress on various aspects of
the phenomena. Well, I'm doing this one because there aren't many people that
work with politicians set up procedures for them to handle certain matters in a way
that the public ca accept. So I'm trying to use my expertise for something
that if it comes out wrong, if if Ladimir Putin announces it or somebody
else and mixes in disinformation with truth, you know, we could have a
lot of chaos that shouldn't happen. And so my hope is they can change
the way they do their hearings for this cover a subject sort of the January
sixth insurrection hearings, Well take the subject matter away, you know, because
that's a dividing issue. Just the format that they used it wasn't the typical
five minutes of one congressman on one side, then five minutes on the other
telling through the witness that the other guy's an idiot. If they do something
like that, we're just going to have chaos. But they do a series
of public hearings that release an issue at at a time to slowly bring people
into this. I think we can do this with a lot less disruption and
get the public to understand what we're talking about. And I think it might
help the world a little bit because you're going to find out if you live
in Wichita, Kansas, you have more in common with someone from you know,
Botswana than you do with someone from Zeta reticulate, and so it might
might help on that front too. I'm not sure whether they were ready.
You know, maybe they'll keep flying around and not doing anything. Who knows,
But at least people need to know that they're and that we're not alone
in this universe. I can help. I'm a government guy, so I
hope it works. Most people that have an interest in the phenomenon also think
government doesn't work because look at this phenomenon, how it's never worked. So
I will see there's always been pushed back with people which don't want this information
coming out because if this information gets rolled out in the course, there's certain
elements things that will come out, will will affect people which have involved in
the more insidious aspects of this. Of course, they don't want these secrets
to come out, but this is the WITHI of the people. The world
is changing now. They want to know. And yes, people aren't as
trusting of the government because there's been lies after lies told, but there is
plenty of interest with this. Now. Have you attempted to reach out to
Tim Burchak? No, I haven't actually tried to strictly stay with what are
called appropriate committees. When they first drafted the UAP law, they set out
who are the appropriate committees to receive information and classified settings about this, and
Congress from Burschet is not on any of those committees, and so I'd sort
of held fast that whether I should or not, House Overside jumped and had
the grus sharing, which I was amazed not by the testimony because I knew
what was going to come out with the Duke, Pilots and the intelligence officer,
but what amazed me was how by partisan the subcommittee was. Because it's
a subcommittee of one of the most partisan committees in Congress. I mean,
they're the ones impeaching everybody, I guess, so, you know, it's
not the kind of committee you expect to have that reach across the aisle.
And there was one member, a woman from North Carolina, who spent her
whole five minutes bashing the Biden administration over the Chinese balloon incident. But the
rest of them, including some of the more flamboyant members like Matt Gates,
asked good questions. I was very surprised, very heartened by that, because
you know, to me, if they're back partisan on this issue, that
doesn't mean they're going to give up their fights on abortion or other. It's
just they put their gloves down for this one issue. Isn't that amazing.
It's the only issue. I can't think of another issue right now that is
truly bipartisan like this. And it's not because of the public. It is
certainly a first and it is the way forward. When I say it's not
the public, the public needs to get involved. But it didn't start with
the public. It started with a bunch of Navy pilots complaining. I think
the next stage is, you know, we have these whistleblowers, military individuals,
which have had these experiences and people which have worked on these projects.
But there does certainly need to be experiences, normal non military experiences which you
know, which I believe they have to have a part in this. Oh,
I agree. It's like peeling back the layers of an onion. You
know, we're not the first layer, but we better be one of them.
We don't want the military and the intelligence community to say, yeah,
you got us, you got us. We held back because we were embarrassed.
There's more to it than embarrassment. Because they know about the abduction phenomena
and some say they're involved through my labs. There could be a lot behind
the scenes that we don't know. That's pretty bad. So we need to
get those out. Yeah, I mean, this is what I'm saying with
there's going to be people which don't want this information coming out because potentially,
you know, the military is involved in some of these abductions. But I
think you know, if you go by all of my guests from over the
years, these are just everyday people. You know, every day people which
having these experiences made back decades decades and decades, So it's important that people
come out and share these and hopefully it gets to be part of the onion,
you know, because it is important, well, you know, sort
of breaking up something that sort of I think I was meant to do this,
or at least that's my goal or that was my mission. You know,
what I'm writing is my own. I even stopped meditating while I was
doing this because I just don't want annections at all. I want to do
it like I'm doing it for a client, and that's the way I'm approaching
it. I've written probably one thousand letters to Congress. A lot of them
are you know, like one hundred copies to one that kind of thing.
But in addition to the twenty seventeen articles coming out of my sixty fifth birthday
in two thousand, November two thousand and four, I took my son my
law firm. We went on a tour of a navy ship. One of
the associates that work for me, her husband was the chiefly officer on the
Nimetz, the USS Nimics, and so we went on. He took us
on a tour. So we went on a sort of a discombobulated tour because
he was a lawyer, not a tour guide. Because they have different officers
or people that give community tours of the ship. And so the highlight of
the tour was it was on a Friday, I think the tenth I may
get my dates wrong, but the tenth of November. We get up to
the Combat Information Center, I think it's called something different now, but where
you know, the heart of the ship, where a commanding control is.
And so the executive officer was the officer of the deck, and then there
were a bunch of enlisted personnel at different computer screens or radar screens or whatever
they were, and we're all real quiet. It's very dark, just the
light from the computer screens to be able to see where we were, and
we're all crowded in there. It was a real small area. And so
our tour guide asked one of them, what are you doing? One of
the personnel, and since an officer asked him, he said, we just
got some new software upgrades. I'm calibrating it. And then the executive officer
turns to the legal officer and says, don't you ever ask a question like
that again in front of civilians. So I knew that they were calibrating some
new software improvements in their radar. They set out two days later on Sunday,
first light goes off the deck and that's the one that spotted the first
tiktacs with Commander Fraver. So I was on the ship ahead of time.
So fast forward about eight nine years later, I met a UFO conference.
It's Sunday afternoon, it's wrapping up. I'm sitting at a von Smith's book
table while she's doing her aggressions, so I can you know. There weren't
many people in there. It was closing up, and my job was to
tell people you can buy a book for me, but Devanza here signed it
and they always walk away, but no one steals the books with me.
Sitting there across from me was a gentleman named Kevin Day, and so there
was no one around. So we just started talking back and forth and I
didn't know it. And it turns out Kevin was the chief Petty Officer on
the USS Princeton, which is the aegis cruiser in the Nimitz Task Force,
and that's the main radar for the whole carrier group and he was, you
know, the supervisor of it, and he was on board. He was
in charge of that unit. When the TIC TACs started showing up, and
he said that they had just gotten new software and they were calibrating it,
and they figured they were just mistakes, so they recalibrated everything. They shut
it down and restarted and recalibrated everything, and the tic TACs actually turned up
sharper and so so Kevin said to me, he thought that the software upgrades
let them see something that might have always been there, or been there a
lot that they couldn't see before. And so I got a front row seat
before the Knibbuts event on the NIBUS and talk about synchronicities. Back to synchronistis
again. Isn't that interesting? It makes you wonder that this upgrade was maybe
deliberate, with maybe prior knowledge, done so they could observe these UFOs,
whether it was intentional or accidental. The result is they started seeing him and
talking to Kevin day about it. To watch someone speak personally about it,
and he was not that comfortable at the time talking about it, but just
seeing the emotion in his face. You know, as a lawyer, you're
always trying to judge the credibility of people you're dealing with, you know,
in the courtroom or in a city council chambers or in a meeting where you're
negotiating. I've always felt I have a little bit of a sixth sense in
that regard. I can't put my finger on it, but I don't trust
this person. It makes a lot of sense to me what they're saying.
I was always a negotiator that most of the time I was representing the government,
I usually didn't play around. I just said, here's my bottom line,
and I never change. If you don't believe me, I'll give you
a list of people I've negotiated with. So it always strikes people funny when
a lot of times they don't trust that. They're used to the old game
where you come up five thousand, they go down five thousand. Eventually three
hours later you meet in the middle. And I was on the public payroll
at the time on an hourly rate, and so I used to always try
to cut to the chase, but credibility, you know, watching Kevin Day,
it was emotionally gut wrenching for him to do it because talk about ontological
shock, you know, no training, no nothing. And in fact,
he said, and he's said this publicly many times that after the incidents,
there were people in Air Force uniforms came on board and took all the radar
data and all the tapes of all the sensors and left. It was interesting.
At the end of December, as Sean Kirkpatrick was leaving Errow to retire,
he was interviewed by I think one of the Defense publications saying and he
said that people are always asking us to look at the NIMET situation, and
I'm telling him they should we look at modern things, not the nimts,
because twenty four hours after they're used, they erased the tape the data and
laid down new data. And I know that's false about that incert. Whether
he knows it or I don't know, but somebody took those tapes away,
and they were tapes back in two thousand and four, big magnetic data tapes.
They took those away, and there's someplace and the answer is right there.
Unless they've destroyed them. Oh yeah, I guarantee they'd be locked away
somewhere. Yes, it's all important data. That's wonderful. James. Now
to our listeners, if you're interested in getting copies of James's books, that's
the UFO Briefing Book, A Guide to congressional oversight of the UAP phenomena and
body politic Foo fighters to UAPs and I'll make them all available on the website
and below this episode. Thanks James, I really appreciate you coming on sharing
it all for our listeners. Well, thank you very much. It was
a pleasure. Pleasure is all. James, keep in contact and we will
speak soon. I will take care James. That is all for this episode.
Keep updated and connected with the show on x Facebook and Instagram. And
if you have an encounter that you'd like to share on the podcast, you
can email me at UFO Chronicles at gmail dot com, or you can reach
out to me via the contact page on my website UFO Chronicles podcast dot com.
A big fan of James for sharing tonight, and thank you all for
listening. I will be back next week. Till then, stay safe and
keep watching the skies. Goodbye,