1 00:00:15,720 --> 00:00:20,280 Welcome to Popcorn Psychology, the podcast where we watch blockbuster movies and psychoanalyze them. 2 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:23,399 My name is Bernie Brownfield and I'm a child therapist and I'm joined by 3 00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:27,879 Ben Stover, individual therapist, Hannah Espinoza, marriage and family therapists. We're 4 00:00:27,879 --> 00:00:32,079 all licensed clinical professional counselors also known as therapists who practice out of Chicago. 5 00:00:32,399 --> 00:00:36,200 Even though we are licensed mental health professionals, this podcast is purely for entered 6 00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:40,200 him and purposes and to fulfill our love of dissecting pop culture in all forms. 7 00:00:40,399 --> 00:00:43,600 Please remember that, even though we are all licensed therapists, we aren't 8 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:47,000 your therapist. If you are struggling with mental health symptoms, please find a 9 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:53,399 local mental health provider. Hi. Welcome to our spooky season episodes of twenty 10 00:00:53,479 --> 00:00:57,399 twenty two. Today we're going to be talking about one of my personal favorites, 11 00:00:57,640 --> 00:01:00,479 core Line, and so before we do that, I want to throw 12 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:03,319 to our special guests today, Eric Wesselman, if you could introduce yourself, 13 00:01:03,599 --> 00:01:07,599 Yes, Hello, thank you for having me. I'm doctor Eric Wesselman. 14 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:11,799 I'm a social psychology professor, Delinois State University, lifelong nerd, and just 15 00:01:12,239 --> 00:01:15,959 thrilled beyond belief that I can find ways to connect what I do for a 16 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:22,200 living with my passions and we're thrilled to have you. And for those of 17 00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:25,519 you watching, especially those of you who know me, Eric is one of 18 00:01:25,599 --> 00:01:29,159 us and wearing a death clock shirt, so be sure to find him on 19 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:32,920 social media and appreciate all the awesome work he does because doctor Eric is awesome. 20 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:38,040 And we actually we run in the same circles as you with the conventions 21 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:40,280 we've gone to and sort of the panels. We've all been a part of 22 00:01:40,319 --> 00:01:44,319 the psychology panels of the conventions in Chicago, like Wizard We're all that's now 23 00:01:44,400 --> 00:01:47,840 fan Expo and C two E two, which is so it's been fun to 24 00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:49,879 get to know you and all the other people that kind of run around in 25 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:53,519 that same community. Yeah, so today we're talking about Coraline. I'm so 26 00:01:53,719 --> 00:02:00,480 exshdarn. We're gonna be talking about some heavy topics though unfortunately we say a 27 00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:05,079 lot on this podcast. Watching movies again as a therapist, especially one is 28 00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:08,120 one of your favorite movies is a true gamble because it can really make you 29 00:02:08,159 --> 00:02:13,719 think about some dark shit and not ruin it. Because Coraline's not ruined for 30 00:02:13,759 --> 00:02:15,639 me, but four abouts I'll talk about today. Buckle up. So if 31 00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:20,680 you listen to this podcast with your kids, especially if you wanted to listen 32 00:02:20,719 --> 00:02:23,520 to it with them, because it's about Coraline, which is a kid movie, 33 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:27,919 we're gonna be talking about some dark stuff. So we're gonna be hitting 34 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:32,000 upon the dynamic between Coraline and her parents, so touching upon sort of the 35 00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:38,879 neglects that we witnessed there because they're working so much, her only child dynamic 36 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:43,319 kind of being an understimulated smart kid parents who work from home. We're also 37 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:46,520 gonna be talking about grooming, which is the part where you might have your 38 00:02:46,599 --> 00:02:51,439 kids exit the listening if they're listening, because we're touching upon how grooming is 39 00:02:51,479 --> 00:02:55,599 displayed within this movie. It's pretty class book example of grooming. So just 40 00:02:55,800 --> 00:03:01,560 very briefly, Coraline is about a girl named Coraline who moves to a news 41 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:06,800 like across a few states from Michigan to Oregon, I believe, with her 42 00:03:06,879 --> 00:03:10,319 parents, who are writers who work from home, and so the movie covers 43 00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:15,599 only a few days where she is bored wandering around. She finds a tiny 44 00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:19,840 door in her new home. She wanders through it to a parallel universe. 45 00:03:19,879 --> 00:03:25,120 Where she finds another mother and another father who are way more attentive and loving 46 00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:30,039 and receptive. But very slowly it turns and they're actually turned out to be 47 00:03:30,159 --> 00:03:36,439 quite monstrous. So that's kind of the general plot of this movie. So 48 00:03:36,759 --> 00:03:40,400 let's get into the family dynamic, which we see almost immediately in this movie, 49 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:45,879 is the dynamic between Coraline and her parents, specifically her mom. Yeah. 50 00:03:45,919 --> 00:03:52,919 Absolutely, we see a very clear message given to the audience into Caroline 51 00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:57,479 herself that she is less important than anything her parents have going on, that 52 00:03:57,599 --> 00:04:02,360 she is expected to entertain her So she is given nonsense missions by your parents, 53 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:05,840 and it is pretty clear she is longing for a close connection with them 54 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:10,120 and they are not giving it to her. Well, one thing I guess 55 00:04:10,120 --> 00:04:13,199 we could highlight before we jump too far into it, which Eric, you 56 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:16,439 brought up before we started recording, is that we're only seeing a few days 57 00:04:16,519 --> 00:04:20,079 in the life of this family, and there's a lot of circumstances we're not 58 00:04:20,160 --> 00:04:24,920 too aware of. One thing is that we don't know why they move, 59 00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:28,959 like almost across the whole country, Like why did they move so far away? 60 00:04:29,079 --> 00:04:30,800 Was it for work? They're doing a catalog for a local store, 61 00:04:30,920 --> 00:04:33,959 but do they have to go across the country to do that. There's been 62 00:04:33,959 --> 00:04:38,680 a recent car accident that has left her mom in a neck brace, which 63 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:42,319 is pretty intense, and she alludes a little bit that it might have been 64 00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:46,720 Coraline's fault, and that's part of their iciness because I can remember exactly what 65 00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:51,600 Coraline says, but she basically says, almost apologize about the car accident. 66 00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:56,560 Her mom's like I know or whatever. So I feel like there's a lot 67 00:04:56,600 --> 00:05:01,040 of things that we don't know about where they're currently at. Because another thing, 68 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:05,160 too, is because you're right, like, these parents seem agitated right 69 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:09,600 from the start. I wrote that they were miserable three or four times. 70 00:05:09,959 --> 00:05:15,839 I think I even wrote miserable parents create miserable children. And they just seem 71 00:05:15,879 --> 00:05:18,639 like they're at their wits end. The dad seems like he hasn't seen sunlight 72 00:05:18,879 --> 00:05:25,000 in about eighteen to thirty six months, which is odd for a gardener. 73 00:05:25,439 --> 00:05:29,560 Yeah, and yeah, it seemed to specialize in gardening. Maybe I don't 74 00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:32,839 know, Yeah, it seems like it certainly like it that like the house 75 00:05:32,839 --> 00:05:35,240 that they moved into, right, I mean, they're they're sharing it with 76 00:05:35,240 --> 00:05:39,920 a lot of other folks, I feel like there's a couple of moments where, 77 00:05:40,199 --> 00:05:43,040 at least in Coraline's room, the house is leaking, you know. 78 00:05:43,079 --> 00:05:46,720 There there is that time when she's in the store and they're buying clothes and 79 00:05:46,199 --> 00:05:49,560 the mother makes some often comment about well, maybe we can buy these for 80 00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:54,439 you after the catalog is done, after we get paid, or something like 81 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:58,399 that. So I guess I just see. I really wonder they're under a 82 00:05:58,439 --> 00:06:05,519 deadline. Financial stress is going on there that which is probably intensify any icines 83 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:11,480 or rough dynamics they already have. Absolutely, and if Brittany, if your 84 00:06:11,879 --> 00:06:15,959 hypotheses are correct that there's been something that's happened that whether or not it's Coraline's 85 00:06:15,959 --> 00:06:21,720 fault, my wife is Caroline. So I'm going to do what Caroline I 86 00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:30,040 am absolutely about. I know, I know, I'm gonna echo with you 87 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:34,199 of the movie of like discarding her identity, but in my case it is 88 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:38,759 actually my wife's name. So this is gonna be hard for me all day 89 00:06:40,519 --> 00:06:43,879 if I'm going to punish myself out and everyone else will seeing sweet Caroline every 90 00:06:43,879 --> 00:06:50,120 time I do it. But but anyway, I think, Brittany, of 91 00:06:50,160 --> 00:06:54,519 your hypothesis is correct and like understanding of right, this is only a few 92 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:59,439 days. This is definitely if there's something that's happened or that mom got hurt, 93 00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:01,959 it is because she felt like her daughter was distracting her. This is 94 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:05,600 definitely not adequate time to have processed that yet and to have dealt with the 95 00:07:05,639 --> 00:07:10,759 feelings and that she might be feeling a little bit frosty yet. And like 96 00:07:10,839 --> 00:07:14,040 you said, Dad looks like he not only hasn't seen the outside, but 97 00:07:14,279 --> 00:07:18,279 he hasn't seen his pillow in a couple months either. He looks rough as 98 00:07:18,279 --> 00:07:24,160 well. He looks ill. He looks ill, He looks like he is 99 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:27,639 not well. He is not well, That's what I feel like. It 100 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:30,959 looks like he's like hunched over too, Like he just looks like like he's 101 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:35,399 melting like a candle. He looks waxing, like, yeah, kind of. 102 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:39,199 One of the other things that I was thinking about when I was watching, 103 00:07:39,399 --> 00:07:43,519 just like the opening scene, is, you know, sometimes I talk 104 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:47,040 to people that I work with about what were some of the silent rules, 105 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:53,439 okay, unspoken rules. What was an unspoken rule in your family? Were 106 00:07:53,439 --> 00:07:56,480 there any unspoken rules? And I feel like one of them in this that 107 00:07:56,519 --> 00:07:59,600 I saw right away is that children should be seen and not heard. Go 108 00:07:59,639 --> 00:08:03,319 into it whatever you're going to do. We're busy, and that that gets 109 00:08:03,519 --> 00:08:07,240 kind of repeated over and over and over again in a way that I feel 110 00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:09,759 like makes that seem true, and that sometimes that's a part of what can 111 00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:13,879 be confusing for kids. I think one thing I guess I want to clarify, 112 00:08:15,160 --> 00:08:18,160 it seems like a good thing to note, is that we're very much 113 00:08:18,199 --> 00:08:22,240 getting this whole story from core Line's perspective, and that we don't really know 114 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:26,720 anything that core Line does not know. So if there is stuff going on 115 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:31,839 with her parents, we truly don't know what that is because we don't see 116 00:08:31,879 --> 00:08:35,240 anything in the movie that she's not present for. So we don't know what 117 00:08:35,279 --> 00:08:39,120 the parents are talking about, the extent of their distress, why they're living 118 00:08:39,159 --> 00:08:43,320 like this. We're really thrown in in the middle of this situation where it's 119 00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:46,000 like why did they move across country? They do seem like you're kind of 120 00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:50,320 insinuating eric like maybe down on their luck, and where they're living, where 121 00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:54,279 it seems like everybody that lives in that apartment building, well that house, 122 00:08:56,000 --> 00:08:58,480 is someone who is I can't think of a better word than phrasing down on 123 00:08:58,519 --> 00:09:03,679 your luck, like their past their prime, they're struggling financial are just trying 124 00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:07,159 to make it work with maybe a fixed income, especially the older people, 125 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:13,360 And we don't really have enough information on the parents benefit for where their stress 126 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:18,000 might be coming from. Because I think something I was also trying to pay 127 00:09:18,039 --> 00:09:22,919 more attention to this watch is if they are you kind of said it already, 128 00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:26,360 but if they are, they not buying things like food because they're strapped 129 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:31,279 for money or because parents are so caught up in their work that they're truly 130 00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:35,240 neglecting everything in the household, even food shopping. Because mom keeps saying we'll 131 00:09:35,279 --> 00:09:39,600 go food shopping. Eventually she brings it up like twice and then she finally 132 00:09:39,600 --> 00:09:45,080 goes. And I was wanting to give her more of the like thinking as 133 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:48,919 an adult that you wouldn't tell your kid ideally if you were thinking about them, 134 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:52,759 that you can't afford food, because that's such a scary thing for a 135 00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:56,919 kid to know, and it's not appropriate for them to know unless they need 136 00:09:56,960 --> 00:10:00,600 to know. And so it does make me respect the parents more if I 137 00:10:00,639 --> 00:10:05,360 go with my head cannon that they can't afford food right now, and so 138 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:09,399 they're making do with these weird vegetables and condiments. And then the more negative 139 00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:15,600 viewpoint is that they're truly so not connected to Coraline's experience and they're so up 140 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:20,240 their own butts that they are truly forgetting that their child does not have enough 141 00:10:20,279 --> 00:10:22,720 food to eat. So there's kind of two ways to view it. Either 142 00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:31,279 way, they are not communicating it effectively to Coraline and letting her create this 143 00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:35,200 narrative where her parents just don't give a shit about her. Is where she 144 00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:37,759 because she says, at one point, no one ever listens to me, 145 00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:41,480 And like you said, Ben, at the beginning, her parents are repeatedly 146 00:10:41,519 --> 00:10:43,919 messaging to her to shut the fuck up and get the fuck out of our 147 00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:48,799 faces, and they're saying it energetically pretty close to that, feeling like they're 148 00:10:48,799 --> 00:10:54,840 not really sugarcoating it at all. Her dad a little bit more at first, 149 00:10:54,879 --> 00:10:56,320 but then he quickly goes to you need to let me work, like 150 00:10:58,519 --> 00:11:03,519 he very quickly goes into the same energy that mom has towards Coraline. Yeah, 151 00:11:03,559 --> 00:11:05,720 I think you're right, and I think that looking at what you see 152 00:11:05,799 --> 00:11:11,919 between the mom and the dad's energy is dad is so close to looking like 153 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:16,000 he wants to give up on life, and Mom is so so bitter and 154 00:11:16,279 --> 00:11:22,120 angry and resentful of everything. I don't think she's specifically resentful of Coraline. 155 00:11:22,159 --> 00:11:26,799 She's not seeming to show that. But she's also not doing anything to communicate 156 00:11:26,799 --> 00:11:31,559 to Coraline that the resentment that is oozing out of her is not about about 157 00:11:31,559 --> 00:11:35,679 Coraline. It's not about her. It's not her fault, it's not your 158 00:11:35,679 --> 00:11:41,519 fault. We're in this nasty house that we're currently you know, experiencing food 159 00:11:41,519 --> 00:11:46,080 insecurity, and that we're living in a lifestyle that is not comfortable for any 160 00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:50,840 of us, and it doesn't seem like we see any effort to communicating that, 161 00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:56,600 and that allows Coraline's imagination to run wild. There was one moment that 162 00:11:56,639 --> 00:12:01,159 I did find interesting well, that she has moments both her parents. You 163 00:12:01,159 --> 00:12:05,600 know, there's when when the mom takes her clothes shopping and they kind of 164 00:12:05,639 --> 00:12:09,759 have some friction there, but there's you know, the dad is attempting to 165 00:12:09,759 --> 00:12:13,720 show her her affection at one point and she's embarrassed by it, which I'm 166 00:12:13,759 --> 00:12:18,480 maybe I'm thinking about this now because my older kids are starting to get into 167 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:22,200 that tween era they've convinced themselves they're teenagers when they're not quite there yet, 168 00:12:22,799 --> 00:12:28,039 right, And exactly just thinking about my own like, you know, my 169 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:31,559 parents kissing my forehead or whatever, and now I kiss my kids foreheads and 170 00:12:31,559 --> 00:12:35,720 they're like dad, right, And you know, I'm sure I probably need 171 00:12:35,759 --> 00:12:39,600 to figure out how to adjust my affection to them in one a way that 172 00:12:39,639 --> 00:12:43,159 will be least embarrassing. Oh. I will confess that there are sometimes where 173 00:12:43,159 --> 00:12:46,960 I purposely like, if I hear my kids kind of go oh gross, 174 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:48,440 and I think I said I love you to my wife, they're like yeah, 175 00:12:48,679 --> 00:12:50,559 and so I'm like, oh, well, maybe I'm just gonna go 176 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:54,200 kiss your mom a little bit more now, and so right, Yeah, 177 00:12:54,919 --> 00:12:58,720 you know, and some of that is just general family dynamics, but I 178 00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:01,240 don't know. I was just really struck by that moment where it's like, 179 00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:03,120 Okay, there is a reaching out here, at least on the part of 180 00:13:03,159 --> 00:13:09,840 the dad missing her. Yeah, the filmmakers chose to put that in there, 181 00:13:09,919 --> 00:13:13,320 So what are they trying to communicate to us? Yeah, there are 182 00:13:13,519 --> 00:13:18,000 some moments where you see the dad try to insert some joy and either mom 183 00:13:18,039 --> 00:13:22,399 shuts it down or Coraline shuts it down, like I was it really. 184 00:13:22,639 --> 00:13:26,080 I was struck by the scene at dinner time earlier in the movie where he 185 00:13:26,159 --> 00:13:31,960 tries to joke about his writer's rash on his butt and he was being silly 186 00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:37,120 and trying to be with Coraline and joking around, and Mom basically says, 187 00:13:37,159 --> 00:13:41,279 shut up, go do your work. Shut up. And part of it 188 00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:45,600 could be if we're going to give them a benefit of the doubt on the 189 00:13:45,639 --> 00:13:48,120 resentment piece, because she was like, I need to edit your pages. 190 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:52,679 Mom might be holding the stress for both of them in this way, and 191 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:56,279 it really bummed me out that the one of the few times that you see 192 00:13:56,320 --> 00:14:01,600 the parents trying to engage with Coraline is immediately just annihilated by Mom. And 193 00:14:01,879 --> 00:14:07,320 I think in the example I think you're thinking of when they drop him off 194 00:14:07,879 --> 00:14:11,080 in the town when they go to gig clothes, he also brings something up 195 00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:13,679 that he thinks she likes, and she says, I haven't liked that for 196 00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:18,480 a while, which she's also at that tween age. I don't think they 197 00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:22,679 ever really say her name, but I'm guessing she's about like eleven or twelve. 198 00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:28,360 Where it did make me curious if that was kind of a tiny sign 199 00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:31,559 that parents have not been paying attention to her for a while, and dad 200 00:14:31,559 --> 00:14:37,440 only remembers things that's about her from like five years ago, when maybe he 201 00:14:37,639 --> 00:14:39,440 was the last time he knew what her favorite thing was, or the last 202 00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:43,879 time he paid attention to what her favorite thing was, and maybe not paying 203 00:14:43,919 --> 00:14:50,200 attention to how she's growing up and what she currently likes. And that does 204 00:14:50,279 --> 00:14:54,559 make kids feel. For kid, it already is feeling neglected and not seen, 205 00:14:54,879 --> 00:14:58,279 and then it's like your parents just keep corroborating it by not paying attention 206 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:03,720 to even what you like and then wanting cookies like brownie points for remembering something 207 00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:07,159 you like five years ago, like I would. I would carry a bit 208 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:11,279 of a fucking energy around that too. I think though, it is important 209 00:15:11,279 --> 00:15:16,960 on the side of their parents to also highlight that sometimes tweens at that age 210 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:22,639 stop sharing as much and start seeking validation and closeness that they once got from 211 00:15:22,679 --> 00:15:28,759 you with their friends and their classmates are their teammates, and they sometimes start 212 00:15:28,759 --> 00:15:33,440 shutting you out and don't give you the same windows into their life that you 213 00:15:33,519 --> 00:15:35,080 used to have. And I have a four year old right now, so 214 00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:39,679 I'm still in Daddy is the best days, and I'm going to hold onto 215 00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:46,480 those as long as I can. Yes, cling to them for dear life. 216 00:15:46,679 --> 00:15:50,960 She keeps getting bigger's wearing a size eleven shoe now, like what is 217 00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:54,159 happening? She's cool shoes though, I get yells of kids shoes and stores. 218 00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:58,720 I want them to make them in adult sizes for me. Why is 219 00:15:58,759 --> 00:16:03,840 everything for these children? Like, I'm right, I wanted a pair of 220 00:16:03,919 --> 00:16:08,320 Heale's inn adult size for so long. But I Benjamin, Now that was 221 00:16:08,399 --> 00:16:14,639 the universe protecting you from yourself. Yes, oh my god, I imagine 222 00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:17,799 how hurt you would have got. I would love to see you roll up 223 00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:19,480 to me on Healey's though, because I feel like I could push you really 224 00:16:19,480 --> 00:16:27,440 easily and you'd fall down, like very top heavy and heales from what I 225 00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:32,279 recall from people who wore them. Yeah, no, I would. I 226 00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:36,279 think. Yes, You're right, it is the universe protecting me from myself. 227 00:16:37,879 --> 00:16:44,240 I get hurt doing nothing, so I hurt myself. I think. 228 00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:48,039 Going back to the movie, though, I think what's tricky about the limited 229 00:16:48,039 --> 00:16:51,840 window we have is that you do see in the scenes. We do get 230 00:16:51,879 --> 00:16:55,519 that she is actively trying to give their attention. She's talking to her mom, 231 00:16:55,639 --> 00:16:57,159 she's going into her dad's room, and she's doing the thing kids do 232 00:16:57,720 --> 00:17:03,759 when they need attention, where they kind of annoying because they're wanting to just 233 00:17:03,919 --> 00:17:07,039 get like. She's just making noise because she wants you to look at her 234 00:17:07,079 --> 00:17:10,519 and know that she's there, not because she's actively trying to bug the shit 235 00:17:10,599 --> 00:17:14,759 out of you. But I think, right maybe where we don't know enough 236 00:17:15,359 --> 00:17:18,279 is that they just moved away from a town in which she had a lot 237 00:17:18,279 --> 00:17:22,559 of friends, or at least two close friends. So we're also could be 238 00:17:22,599 --> 00:17:26,480 seeing a kid who this could be slightly different than how she acts because she 239 00:17:26,519 --> 00:17:30,559 went from having a lot to do and people to hang out with to now 240 00:17:30,599 --> 00:17:33,039 nothing to do and nobody to hang out with. Right, So, if 241 00:17:33,039 --> 00:17:37,519 we combine those two kind of points of view with kids and parents, it 242 00:17:37,599 --> 00:17:42,119 is quite possible that the dynamic is shifting for both of them at the same 243 00:17:42,119 --> 00:17:45,759 time. Where I have come to learn, I don't think Neil Gaiman does 244 00:17:45,799 --> 00:17:51,519 anything by accident and in his writing, so the point that these friends keep 245 00:17:51,599 --> 00:17:53,960 showing up over and over in these pivotal scenes, I think is communicating to 246 00:17:55,039 --> 00:17:57,559 us that she is longing for a closeness that she once got from them, 247 00:17:57,640 --> 00:18:02,240 and now that her parents are there and the friends aren't, she's trying to 248 00:18:02,519 --> 00:18:06,640 reconnect to them. So I think there's some awkwardness for both and for people 249 00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:10,119 in real life situations where they are or are not monsters. I think the 250 00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:15,599 jury's out on that, but that looking at the changes that come when you 251 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:21,200 make a massive shift and are likely to produce symptoms of adjustment disorder for everyone, 252 00:18:22,039 --> 00:18:23,920 is everyone's gonna be go all throne at the same time, and it's 253 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:26,240 going to be hard for everybody, and they're going to be growing pains and 254 00:18:26,279 --> 00:18:30,680 seeing this just happen over a couple of days there nobody's figured out what to 255 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:33,839 do or how they feel about it, and everybody's not addressing the elephant in 256 00:18:33,839 --> 00:18:37,720 a room that hey, we're down on our luck right now. We don't 257 00:18:37,799 --> 00:18:40,960 have a lot of money. Things are going to be really tight. We 258 00:18:41,039 --> 00:18:44,359 kind of shot the moon and trying to get this deal, and we moved 259 00:18:44,359 --> 00:18:47,880 out here to get it done and because we had to, and now we're 260 00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:51,440 all uncomfortable, but let's not talk about it ever. I like that point 261 00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:55,920 you make Doun about the sort of shift for both of them, and it 262 00:18:56,359 --> 00:19:00,440 kind of made me think about what we're talking about before the show that when 263 00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:04,799 I watched this, I experienced this from sort of a post COVID I'll say 264 00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:11,680 post and put that in scare quotes. Still at a real established that good. 265 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:15,960 Yes, yeah, but like so far, just me personally, you 266 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:19,200 know, my family had a dynamic setup where I work a lot, but 267 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:22,640 I work at I work in my office at school, and then when I 268 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:29,400 come home, I'm home right and I had this sort of nice delineation most 269 00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:33,720 of the time, deadline's notwithstanding. But then when we you know, have 270 00:19:33,319 --> 00:19:41,000 something like COVID where places shut down or there's this shift to school at home 271 00:19:41,079 --> 00:19:45,319 and work at home, and those boundaries become very thin. And so like 272 00:19:45,359 --> 00:19:48,400 if I'm working here in my office and I have this breakthrough on the paper, 273 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:52,960 you know, and my spouse is trying really hard during my work hours 274 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:56,400 to keep the kids away, but you know, my kids of whatever age 275 00:19:56,480 --> 00:19:59,559 come in and they're like daddy, Daddy comes snuggle with me, or watch 276 00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:02,920 this or look at my drawing. I got to stop this role I'm on 277 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:06,440 to do that. And so I have these sort of conflicting impulses like I 278 00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:08,960 want to attend to my kid, but damn it, I've got these other 279 00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:18,000 responsibilities. And this wasn't an issue before our world views were completely offended, 280 00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:22,839 right, And so yeah, I guess I'm just curious how folks like myself 281 00:20:22,839 --> 00:20:30,319 who see this movie for the first time after this socio cultural shift would experience 282 00:20:30,359 --> 00:20:33,000 this compared to folks beforehand. So I'll throw that out there for it. 283 00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:37,319 Yeah, I think that's a great point. Something I've said a lot when 284 00:20:37,519 --> 00:20:41,440 the prime of COVID, when kids weren't going to school, and I was 285 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:47,799 working with a lot of families and parents during that time, and something I 286 00:20:47,799 --> 00:20:52,279 would always try to just validate for everybody is that, in quote unquote normal 287 00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:57,480 times, when a kid chooses, our family chooses for their child to do 288 00:20:57,640 --> 00:21:03,839 school from home, there's a very specific disposition of both the kids and the 289 00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:07,440 parents for that to be effective and to work well. And then we got 290 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:11,720 to this, But then we got to this situation where everybody was doing homeschooling 291 00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:17,880 pretty much no matter what your disposition was, and that is really rough. 292 00:21:18,079 --> 00:21:21,920 And so we could be seeing that in this situation where they haven't had to 293 00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:26,359 work like this before they have maybe they worked in offices back when they used 294 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:29,920 to work wherever in Michigan. You know, she was probably in school or 295 00:21:30,279 --> 00:21:33,319 you know, run around town with her friends, and so we could be 296 00:21:33,319 --> 00:21:38,240 seeing sort of a microcosmic example of what families went through during prime lockdown, 297 00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:44,279 when no one was attending school and barely anyone was working out of the home. 298 00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:47,799 I can echo that because for me, this is my first time seeing 299 00:21:47,839 --> 00:21:52,319 this movie. I've never seen it before, and I liked it, Brittany, 300 00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:59,880 I liked it teaser, but I think the way it hit hit different 301 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:03,799 because watching it now as someone who started. My child was one and a 302 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:08,400 half right when the pandemic hit. Is having that change from having a child 303 00:22:08,519 --> 00:22:14,039 in daycare, and we've been in daycare for three weeks before everything closed, 304 00:22:14,079 --> 00:22:19,519 and just finally reached a point where we'd gotten some breathing room where we could 305 00:22:19,519 --> 00:22:25,200 operate in the balance, like the sweet spot between parent and professional. And 306 00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:27,880 I just started a new job that was pretty intense, and it was a 307 00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:33,200 big culture shift from community mental health and learning a whole bunch of things all 308 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:36,200 at once and having some space to do that, and then having that all 309 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:41,599 collapsed so fast. It was a lot. So I think this movie may 310 00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:45,880 have hit totally different having that not been the case and having no reference point 311 00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:52,240 for being unwillingly stuck in a situation where everybody's at home and trying to figure 312 00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:55,720 it out. Because now I have a reference point for it, and I'm 313 00:22:55,720 --> 00:22:56,599 like, oh, I have empathy for the parents and I don't think I 314 00:22:56,599 --> 00:23:00,599 would have before. Yeah, And I feel like there's so many different things 315 00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:04,960 that affected families during COVID, but that one of the things that's still affecting 316 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:10,279 families. People who have kids around the age Ben that you were saying, 317 00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:15,039 you know, are the age where they would go to daycare and how if 318 00:23:15,039 --> 00:23:17,839 they get a sniffle. You know how much kids get sick when they go 319 00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:22,599 to daycare, especially their first year, right if they have they if they 320 00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:26,799 have a runny nose. Now they have to they have to not go. 321 00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:30,880 They have to get a COVID test and get the COVID test and have a 322 00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:34,799 negative COVID test before the kid can come back to school. So also, 323 00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:40,759 I'm having parents who even though everything is you know, back open and you 324 00:23:40,759 --> 00:23:45,759 can get some child care support, they're still experiencing a lot more having to 325 00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:52,799 it's still not quite where it can be balanced for anybody, because your kid 326 00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:56,200 is sick, and then you get sick, and then and then it's like 327 00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:59,319 which, which is a natural thing that happens in families anyway. But I 328 00:23:59,319 --> 00:24:00,640 think it makes a lot a sense to hear both of you talk about that 329 00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:06,000 in terms of how big of a change it is. And it did really 330 00:24:06,039 --> 00:24:10,359 make me think about a part of this really would be how do we help 331 00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:17,480 the parents better be able to communicate about what's going on right instead of kind 332 00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:19,240 of having this just leave me alone, I have to work. Just leave 333 00:24:19,279 --> 00:24:22,799 me alone. I have to work right and I and I immediately, you 334 00:24:22,839 --> 00:24:26,519 know, I thought of like four different ways they could have said that. 335 00:24:26,039 --> 00:24:30,839 Yeah, just kind of in general, and also knowing that no one is 336 00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:34,359 ever We're not ever going to be always be able to be our best selves, 337 00:24:34,799 --> 00:24:37,480 and parents are not always going to be able to be their best selves, 338 00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:42,440 and that's okay, And this is more about how are we good enough? 339 00:24:44,319 --> 00:24:48,119 And I wish and in the situation that I wish that the parents had 340 00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:52,200 a little bit more knowledge about that, and the other thing that I was 341 00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:56,599 thinking too. I know we've been talking a lot about a lot about how 342 00:24:56,640 --> 00:25:00,799 it's a short amount of time because we're looking at But the other thing that 343 00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:04,000 I don't see. So if this was, let's say that the rest of 344 00:25:04,079 --> 00:25:10,559 Coralines experience of being a child has been very loving and very supportive and all 345 00:25:10,599 --> 00:25:14,200 the attention that she needs and she gets all of her needs met. If 346 00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:18,079 that was the case all the time, like if that had already always been 347 00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:22,440 her experience, then she would probably be having like full blown tantrum like behavior 348 00:25:23,279 --> 00:25:26,519 and she doesn't really, So I feel like like she is. She is 349 00:25:26,559 --> 00:25:30,400 coming into the room and kind of like trying to get their attention, saying 350 00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:33,440 wacky stuff like I think I almost died yesterday. I think it almost fell 351 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:37,880 down a well, I mean she started says that she starts definitely trying to 352 00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:42,920 get their attention in a dramatic like she's trying to get a dramatic pull from 353 00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:47,680 them. Who But that's a good point, because a kid that's used to 354 00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:52,359 getting their needs met suddenly not would be losing it, losing it right like 355 00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:56,960 they were. Why my parents acting like this and like maybe crying and yeah, 356 00:25:57,119 --> 00:26:00,079 like just having a such a hard time. That was one of the 357 00:26:00,079 --> 00:26:04,759 things that I wanted to just point out that that's not what's happening, and 358 00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:11,400 she actually seems again, while I think this change in their family is definitely 359 00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:15,319 more uncomfortable than they've experienced, but she doesn't seem she's not frazzled, she's 360 00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:18,880 not crying, she's not why don't you love me? I'm like, she's 361 00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:21,839 not, like, I'm so confused. Why are you mad at me? 362 00:26:21,839 --> 00:26:23,559 I don't understand what's happening. I don't know why you can't pay She doesn't 363 00:26:23,599 --> 00:26:30,359 me? She really she So it does It does seem like, regardless of 364 00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:33,200 of the time that we have with this, with this family, that it 365 00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:37,640 is common that she is not listened to, even though we hear her say 366 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:41,079 that a lot. I think that that seems to be and it sounds like 367 00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:45,000 it's a common experience for her, just over her interactions with her parents in 368 00:26:45,039 --> 00:26:48,880 general. I think that's a really good point, Hannah, And that's that's 369 00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:52,640 a good thought point. And I think the next thing that bridged for me 370 00:26:52,759 --> 00:27:00,119 from that, since I'm at least presently anyway raising an only child and I 371 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:04,000 I married an only child, and I am knew you We're going to talk 372 00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:11,920 about this like we done, like eighty eight episodes of the show or something, 373 00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:17,720 but the and been friends for like seven years. I didn't a Yeah, 374 00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:21,839 I'm sure you figured it out, but like, wow, watching watching 375 00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:26,480 an only child and marrying an only child, seeing the absolute difference in mentality 376 00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:33,160 and ability to self entertain. That would have been my brothers and I doing 377 00:27:33,279 --> 00:27:38,480 something together, like finding a way to play or irritate each other or fight, 378 00:27:38,519 --> 00:27:41,920 depending on what age we were at. But looking at the way, 379 00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:47,759 my child can just pop off and disappear and go play by yourself and start 380 00:27:47,799 --> 00:27:52,880 a whole imaginary play session just with her toys and'd be fine. Where I'm 381 00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:56,599 wondering with Carlin being an only a child because Hannah, like you, like 382 00:27:56,759 --> 00:28:02,319 me and Brittany, none of us are our only children. So watching an 383 00:28:02,319 --> 00:28:08,039 only child to operate feels lonely to us. Yeah, it does, You're 384 00:28:08,079 --> 00:28:11,960 right, but it might not to her. That's a good point. And 385 00:28:12,079 --> 00:28:18,480 she also, as something many of you kind of suggested earlier. Whatever needs 386 00:28:18,519 --> 00:28:23,559 she wasn't getting met by her parents in terms of affection, right, she 387 00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:30,839 had reorganized that with her friends, right, so she perhaps reached some optimal 388 00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:34,440 balance of Okay, this is what I need from them and this is what 389 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:38,240 I need from them, and now the one support is taken away. Right, 390 00:28:38,279 --> 00:28:41,279 So like in my life, I know, just in terms of friends 391 00:28:41,279 --> 00:28:48,519 and family, who I can go to for practical social support when I need 392 00:28:48,559 --> 00:28:51,880 to get shit done, and I know who I need to go to when 393 00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:56,519 I need empathic, person centered listening. Sure, right, And it took 394 00:28:56,599 --> 00:29:00,880 some time to get that, but that's the sort of organization that I've I've 395 00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:03,960 fostered for myself, right, And if one is then taken away, you 396 00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:07,960 of course flounder and have to reorganize. So I mean, is it quote 397 00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:14,440 unquote good that that was Coraline's distribution of emotional labor? We of course could 398 00:29:14,519 --> 00:29:17,279 argue whether or not it is or not, but but that was her system 399 00:29:17,559 --> 00:29:22,599 and then that was taken away. Yeah, And I think that would also 400 00:29:22,039 --> 00:29:26,319 makes me It makes my empathy for parents a little tough, and that they 401 00:29:26,359 --> 00:29:32,240 don't seem to be cognizant or even like or maybe they're just not able to 402 00:29:32,319 --> 00:29:37,000 be cognizant right now because they're so stressed that that she doesn't have that she 403 00:29:37,039 --> 00:29:40,400 doesn't have her friends anymore, she doesn't have siblings, you know, she 404 00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:45,599 doesn't have kids to hang out with in this apartment building, and they're not 405 00:29:45,279 --> 00:29:51,720 thinking about they're not even mentioning, they don't even whisper that acknowledgement of I 406 00:29:51,799 --> 00:29:55,799 know right now you don't have anyone to play with. I'm really sorry that 407 00:29:55,880 --> 00:30:00,480 we had to move. And now we're here and your board and I need 408 00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:06,400 your father and I just need a few days to like head down write this 409 00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:08,039 thing, and then after those two days, we'll do this. We'll do 410 00:30:08,079 --> 00:30:11,440 this, We'll do this. Because the thing that's missing, kind of even 411 00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:15,200 going back to what you were saying, Hannah before, the thing that's missing 412 00:30:15,759 --> 00:30:18,960 from the parent child dynamic that makes me want to go a little harder, 413 00:30:18,039 --> 00:30:23,119 be a little more judgmental towards her parents, specifically her mom, is that 414 00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:27,720 there's no repair work that gets done. Nor does Mom seem phased at all 415 00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:32,240 by the way that she's talking to Cora line. Mom, She's not like 416 00:30:32,279 --> 00:30:34,880 she loses it on core line and then later in a later scene and she's 417 00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:37,920 like sorry. The only time we kind of see that is when she's going 418 00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:41,279 to go food chopping and she's like, let me make it up to you, 419 00:30:42,039 --> 00:30:45,559 and Coraline says, that's what you always say. It seems like there's 420 00:30:45,559 --> 00:30:52,759 a pattern of mom and maybe dad too, acting this way, not really 421 00:30:52,799 --> 00:30:56,759 ever doing repair work around it, and then trying to make up for it 422 00:30:56,880 --> 00:31:00,039 as like an afterthought. And so she's pretty jaded, you know, kind 423 00:31:00,079 --> 00:31:03,119 of what we're talking about. What she's not throwing fits or anything. She 424 00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:07,240 seems like a kid who's pretty jaded. And also it made me laugh ish 425 00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:11,279 is you can tell her mom is so fed up with her mouth and she 426 00:31:11,359 --> 00:31:17,000 has the same exactive mouth as her mom, And how parents get so fed 427 00:31:17,359 --> 00:31:21,039 I think when I have family sessions and parents will mouth off, and then 428 00:31:21,599 --> 00:31:23,440 I have to find creative ways as a family. Thereist to be like, 429 00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:29,680 you know, we have to be mindful about how we model communication to our 430 00:31:29,759 --> 00:31:34,319 kids, and that we don't ask kids to be more mature and thoughtful than 431 00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:41,039 the adults in their lives. Because I could see her mom complaining about Coraline 432 00:31:41,079 --> 00:31:45,000 like she's such like a smart ass, or she's like she's got such a 433 00:31:45,079 --> 00:31:48,200 mouth on her. But the way she what they talk just to like I 434 00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:51,359 wanted to say, like she's giving you the same attitude that you're giving her, 435 00:31:52,119 --> 00:31:55,240 like when they're in that clothing store. I was really noticing like them 436 00:31:55,319 --> 00:31:59,240 kind of sparring back and forth, and I'm like, I bet you if 437 00:31:59,279 --> 00:32:04,799 we got to see the young version of her mom, that personality wise probably 438 00:32:04,799 --> 00:32:07,200 not too far off from Coraline. Brittany. I love that you use that 439 00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:12,079 word modeling, and it made me think of something Hannah you brought up earlier 440 00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:16,160 about parents not always being their their best selves right and to what degree I 441 00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:21,359 mean that that's I think something we all deal with right and absolutely so. 442 00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:23,799 I would be curious, like if we had sort of our way to rewrite 443 00:32:23,799 --> 00:32:27,720 this right in the way that we would like to, you know, what 444 00:32:27,799 --> 00:32:31,119 would be the sort of come together moment at the end where they all sort 445 00:32:31,119 --> 00:32:34,519 of sit down and be like, Okay. The parents could be like, 446 00:32:34,559 --> 00:32:37,039 you know, yes we haven't been our best. How can we model to 447 00:32:37,079 --> 00:32:40,319 you that you will also? There will be times where you will not also 448 00:32:40,359 --> 00:32:45,240 be your best. But but this is our family unit. We can be 449 00:32:45,359 --> 00:32:49,799 vulnerable with each other, give ourselves some grace and work together. Okay, 450 00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:52,839 Yeah, I think yeah, I think that's great. And what occurs to 451 00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:59,440 me is we did an episode prior to recording this one on a very very 452 00:32:59,559 --> 00:33:06,839 similar or plotline that came out in inside out, watching the parents pull an 453 00:33:06,839 --> 00:33:10,920 only child and take her oa across the country with little choice in the matter, 454 00:33:12,319 --> 00:33:16,759 and seeing the amount of effort and repair work that the parents are capable 455 00:33:16,839 --> 00:33:23,519 of once they reground that we don't see these parents do, and I think 456 00:33:24,119 --> 00:33:30,319 it's easier to feel judgmental against where they're at than the other parents because we're 457 00:33:30,319 --> 00:33:32,519 missing two things. Is one, we don't see a cute little emotions running 458 00:33:32,519 --> 00:33:37,920 around inside of their head. We don't, and we don't see their parts 459 00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:44,640 talking to each other. And what we also don't see is the genuine closeness 460 00:33:44,759 --> 00:33:50,880 and efforts to play that we saw with Riley's family, where they make efforts 461 00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:54,319 to play together, because when you do have an only child, parents have 462 00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:59,759 to become playmates sometimes and replace some of that role that siblings take on. 463 00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:02,519 And I, you know, with my child, I see all the time, 464 00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:06,440 like Danny can play with me, and it either gets to play with 465 00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:08,079 me and I buck up and figure out, like whatever I'm tired about or 466 00:34:08,159 --> 00:34:10,800 ten thousand things on my mind, if I got to put that away and 467 00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:16,480 be a child or a dog one of the two to play with them play 468 00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:21,760 with her, And I don't see any of that with these parents, I 469 00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:23,480 know, like it's distinct, takes over a place over like a weekend, 470 00:34:23,519 --> 00:34:28,480 I think, But looking at it, we don't see any efforts to play 471 00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:34,480 or break out of the parent child role or come into a shifting dynamic relationship. 472 00:34:34,519 --> 00:34:37,920 They don't have any of that. It's all very rigid, very set, 473 00:34:37,039 --> 00:34:42,920 very cold. Yeah. Yeah, So there's an art there where they're 474 00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:45,719 affection at the beginning, it falls apart, and then they're affection to get 475 00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:50,760 the end, and in coral line from Jump, it's like there's no affection 476 00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:52,920 groundwork. But anyway, we're gonna say, Hannah, I'm just gonna say 477 00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:59,480 that one of the things that is really helpful to clarify with kids and also 478 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:04,440 to just let them know like you are also a human and apologizing to your 479 00:35:04,559 --> 00:35:08,239 kid and saying and even like I would even have been happy with them sitting 480 00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:13,760 next to her on the bed and saying it has I know that it has 481 00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:16,159 been really stressful, and I know that I have been really stressed, and 482 00:35:16,199 --> 00:35:20,400 I can't imagine what it must be like for you. But I just want 483 00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:24,760 to let you know that I really appreciate you your flexibility with me, and 484 00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:29,159 I want to be able to have more flexibility with you two. And but 485 00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:32,519 I am genuinely sorry about how this transition has not been going I think the 486 00:35:32,599 --> 00:35:37,239 way that any of us had really thought that it would. Yeah, it 487 00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:42,000 doesn't have to be something that's a paragraph long or like this deep intense talk, 488 00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:45,440 you know, Like it can just be like, hey, I fucked 489 00:35:45,519 --> 00:35:50,639 up, I'm sorry, and what can I do to make it up to 490 00:35:50,639 --> 00:35:52,480 you? Or like what is something that you've been really wanting to do in 491 00:35:52,519 --> 00:35:57,360 this new town or that you've been really thinking about, Like maybe we should 492 00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:01,840 see if there's a zoo. There's so many close ups the Detroit Zoo snow 493 00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:06,039 globe, like maybe we need to find the local zoo, Like would that 494 00:36:06,119 --> 00:36:08,480 be fun? Again, It's not so much that you have to explain every 495 00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:12,320 single thing, because we know that kids don't really absorb that shit anyway. 496 00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:15,400 They're kind of like in it whatever, But saying but saying something as simple 497 00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:21,159 as like I'm sorry these last couple of days have been so stressful, and 498 00:36:21,199 --> 00:36:22,400 I'm sorry that it feels like I've been taking it out on you, and 499 00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:25,840 I just want to let you know that that sucks and I'm sorry that that's 500 00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:30,880 happening, go ahead night. It makes me really curious because there was an 501 00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:34,239 opportunity at the end of this movie to do that and they kind of swerved 502 00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:37,079 away from it, which I was really paying attention to watching at this time 503 00:36:37,119 --> 00:36:42,719 around. And when they are at that it's sort of garden party that she 504 00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:51,400 makes them throw. There's a little bit of some some movement on her parents' 505 00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:55,320 behalf of trying to be engaged doing other things, getting back into gardening that 506 00:36:55,400 --> 00:37:00,480 kind of thing, but there's still this sort of iciness, especially coming from 507 00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:04,840 her mom, of like, well, I guess this isn't horrible is her 508 00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:08,119 energy, and it does make me really want to pick the brain of the 509 00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:16,280 filmmakers and or Neil Gaiman about why they made that choice to still have parents 510 00:37:16,599 --> 00:37:21,880 not really have a character arc in this movie the way that I feel like 511 00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:27,519 in most kids movies there is a character arc around that where they want kids 512 00:37:27,559 --> 00:37:30,239 to have the comfort of things are going to be different from here on out, 513 00:37:30,679 --> 00:37:34,920 and there isn't really that guarantee. At the end of this movie, 514 00:37:35,039 --> 00:37:37,920 they're kind of a little bit better, but I think it really is because 515 00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:44,679 they don't remember what happened, and so there isn't this acknowledgment of we really 516 00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:51,159 let things slide to the point that you left us and then someone took advantage 517 00:37:51,159 --> 00:37:54,400 of you leaving us, and so they didn't really learn a lesson parents in 518 00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:59,800 this, But that would have been the time even if they didn't remember. 519 00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:01,599 Like what you're asking, Eric, is that one of the time for parents 520 00:38:01,599 --> 00:38:06,000 to say, like, this has sucked since we moved out here, and 521 00:38:06,039 --> 00:38:07,480 we know that it sucked, and we know that we haven't been around, 522 00:38:08,039 --> 00:38:14,199 so moving forward, the deadline's done, let's do this differently. And that 523 00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:17,159 didn't have to be like super flouncy. It could have just been like, 524 00:38:17,159 --> 00:38:20,519 like I feel like her mom's disposition. I feel like it would have more 525 00:38:20,559 --> 00:38:22,599 been like we've both been kind of acting like bitches the past few days, 526 00:38:22,599 --> 00:38:27,559 and yeah, I'm sorry, but well let's try better here on out, 527 00:38:27,639 --> 00:38:31,480 and let's do this next week. But also I think for kids that get 528 00:38:31,559 --> 00:38:37,079 that in every other movie, the kids that don't get parents who to make 529 00:38:37,079 --> 00:38:39,679 adjustments to them need to be seen too. And I think, yeah, 530 00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:44,280 this writing, very much like Stephen King writing, is going to cover it 531 00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:47,519 from the darker or less explored angle, and that this is a kid's movie 532 00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:53,719 not for little kids, but for older kids who might very well be aware 533 00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:59,119 that their parents. You know, not everybody gets good parents. Just yeah, 534 00:38:59,199 --> 00:39:00,559 yeah, And I think that's a great point. And Neil Gaiman is 535 00:39:00,559 --> 00:39:05,519 a much more He's why I love him so much is that he writes such 536 00:39:05,599 --> 00:39:10,599 high concept fantastical things, but he makes them so grounded in like real human 537 00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:15,719 experience, when Stephen King does that well, which is why I love him 538 00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:21,679 too. And that's a great point. And maybe I could definitely see him 539 00:39:21,679 --> 00:39:22,800 writing a book and choose the end of like that, because he's like, 540 00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:27,079 this is for the ones whose parents don't come around, And I'm totally up 541 00:39:27,079 --> 00:39:30,960 there on asses forever. And yeah, I would love to know more about 542 00:39:30,119 --> 00:39:34,920 why they only had one kid. Is did they have one kid because they 543 00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:37,559 wanted that kid to be like self sufficient and kind of be another adult that 544 00:39:37,639 --> 00:39:42,119 kind of walks around behind them. They didn't parentify her because she doesn't have 545 00:39:42,119 --> 00:39:45,000 other siblings to be of the parent too, but she feels very adultified, 546 00:39:45,039 --> 00:39:50,119 which can also happen if you just happen to only have one kid for whatever 547 00:39:50,159 --> 00:39:52,360 reason. Is that they're around a lot of adults all the time, and 548 00:39:52,480 --> 00:40:00,000 so they're a bit more attuned to talking to adults and take care of themselves 549 00:40:00,079 --> 00:40:04,159 like an adult wood more, but they still are a child, which I 550 00:40:04,159 --> 00:40:07,599 think is what gets miss and what we keep talking about is you have to 551 00:40:07,639 --> 00:40:09,800 make sure that you're not expecting an eleven year old who might be very smart 552 00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:16,320 and can talk very smart, to be able to not have still the emotional 553 00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:22,639 needs of an eleven year old. Well, I can speak from personal experience 554 00:40:22,679 --> 00:40:28,280 there with just the diversity of kids that I have, and I know my 555 00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:36,039 older daughter in particular, was a very early talker and was telling social stories 556 00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:39,960 much earlier than developmentally most kids seem to, and so it was easy to 557 00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:45,039 forget and still is easy to forget that she's only the age she is, 558 00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:50,519 Yeah, just because of the ability that we can have these very high level 559 00:40:50,519 --> 00:40:52,360 conversations. But then when she hits an emotional wall, I'm like, how 560 00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:54,519 are you? Oh wait, no, no, I know how old you 561 00:40:54,519 --> 00:41:00,920 are. But I think that's a great point because my actual specialty in my 562 00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:05,679 master's program was gifted kids, and that's a common occurrence that comes up and 563 00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:09,559 I still see as a child therapist, is that because the kids really smart 564 00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:17,360 intellectually, we can unfairly ascribe other characteristics to them that match that IQ age 565 00:41:17,519 --> 00:41:22,400 and not their actual age. Or even sometimes the smarter you are, the 566 00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:25,719 more emotionally delayed you can be too, and socially delayed. And so sometimes 567 00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:30,199 when I'd work with parents, I would do age mapping where I would just 568 00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:37,239 make a like a graph of very minimal of this is your kid's intellectual age. 569 00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:40,239 And maybe they're nine and they are sixteen intellectually, or maybe even older 570 00:41:40,679 --> 00:41:46,840 emotionally. Are they three? Are they soil throwing tantrums? Socially? Are 571 00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:51,559 they five? And so when they're having emotional needs and social needs, you 572 00:41:51,639 --> 00:41:53,400 have to meet them at that age, which could even be younger than their 573 00:41:53,639 --> 00:41:58,679 chronological age, and not get hung up on the fact that they can say, 574 00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:06,440 you know, discombobulated. And we do kids a disservice. Sometimes when 575 00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:10,280 they are smart, we overestimate them. And I could see Corline's parents doing 576 00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:15,159 that because I will make an assumption that because they're writers, they're more intellectual 577 00:42:15,199 --> 00:42:21,360 types, and so maybe she's also an intellectual type because of that, and 578 00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:23,840 so there could be more of an assumption that she can take care of herself 579 00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:28,599 and just entertain herself, which she probably she can't. We see her do 580 00:42:28,679 --> 00:42:31,119 that in the movie. She's very imaginative, but that doesn't mean she still 581 00:42:31,159 --> 00:42:35,960 doesn't need things from them emotionally, right, and she does, and she 582 00:42:36,079 --> 00:42:42,440 has so many needs that are going unmet emotionally that the monster, the villain 583 00:42:42,559 --> 00:42:49,079 of the story, created a foil of her mother to be a loving, 584 00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:55,360 beating, empathetic person that her mother is not like to think about that in 585 00:42:55,400 --> 00:43:00,400 the writing, and any question we have about what story was trying to be 586 00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:07,159 told here is that the monster created a trap because it could see that her 587 00:43:07,199 --> 00:43:09,920 mother was so absent, her parents were so absent, that a loving, 588 00:43:10,039 --> 00:43:16,559 connected mother was what she wanted. And also the monster echoed the manipulation of 589 00:43:17,519 --> 00:43:22,920 and dominance of Mom in the family dynamic, showing how she really sees Dad 590 00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:27,559 as someone who is a puppet. Two moms command like notice we never see 591 00:43:27,639 --> 00:43:30,360 dad. We'll almost never see Dad outside of doing something. Mom has assigned 592 00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:35,800 him a task to do yeah for me. Even when Corline asks if she 593 00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:38,039 can go outside and play and she goes in to ask her dad and he 594 00:43:38,119 --> 00:43:42,960 says to her, what did the boss say? Yep, that's how. 595 00:43:43,119 --> 00:43:47,239 So he is also modeling that like he is pointing out that dynamic and agreeing 596 00:43:47,639 --> 00:43:52,000 in his role of that dynamic by saying that to her, Well, it 597 00:43:52,039 --> 00:43:54,920 sounds like we're about to slide into our next topic, so before that, 598 00:43:55,000 --> 00:44:00,719 let's take a break, all right, So right where you were jumping off, 599 00:44:00,760 --> 00:44:04,480 then great segue is that because of all these things we've been talking about 600 00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:09,519 so far, unfortunately, it makes core aligned very vulnerable to be taken advantage 601 00:44:09,559 --> 00:44:16,480 of by someone who is demonstrating classic examples of grooming. So first off, 602 00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:21,480 we could define what grooming is. Well, grooming is basically how I tend 603 00:44:21,519 --> 00:44:24,719 to think of it is a frog boiling in water, which is that when 604 00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:30,199 someone who is preying upon someone else. A lot of times we talk about 605 00:44:30,199 --> 00:44:32,719 grooming, it's usually the power dynamic of like an older person and a younger 606 00:44:32,719 --> 00:44:37,159 person, but that's not always what it is. Is they are slowly ingratiating 607 00:44:37,159 --> 00:44:45,039 themselves into that person's life, usually in ways that are more normal quote unquote 608 00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:49,719 ways to interact with that person, and then they slowly start getting more and 609 00:44:49,840 --> 00:44:53,320 more like is it ingratiated involved and giving them things they're not getting from other 610 00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:59,719 places, and validating them all that on paper positive things Because they're getting them 611 00:44:59,800 --> 00:45:05,360 right, they're grooming them to then engage in a behavior with them or relationship 612 00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:09,639 with them that is therefore inappropriate and so in predatory. And so in this 613 00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:15,199 movie, it's the classic thing of she butters up coraline, butters up coraline, 614 00:45:15,199 --> 00:45:20,800 butters up coraline, until there's the big ask, which is put buttons 615 00:45:20,880 --> 00:45:23,800 on, like replace your eyes with buttons. And in more real life examples, 616 00:45:24,199 --> 00:45:29,039 you know, trigger warning here, it would be, you know, 617 00:45:29,119 --> 00:45:31,679 let's do some hugging I said on my lap, like let's go hang out. 618 00:45:31,679 --> 00:45:36,039 I'll get you ice cream and spend time together, until the big ask 619 00:45:36,239 --> 00:45:38,159 is more like let me touch you there, and let me touch you there 620 00:45:38,280 --> 00:45:43,199 and let's do this together, or you know, let's run away together, 621 00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:49,599 And so it can happen in that more like textbook predatory relationship. I know 622 00:45:49,639 --> 00:45:52,840 a lot of times how grooming is using now more in like the TikTok space 623 00:45:53,599 --> 00:45:59,920 is relationships with big age gaps, specifically teenage girls who get in relationships with 624 00:46:00,719 --> 00:46:05,239 men in their like twenties and thirties, and so that kind of more grooming 625 00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:09,199 is a little different, and that you are still preparing, you're still normalizing 626 00:46:09,239 --> 00:46:16,519 relationship that in retrospect was not appropriate for whatever reason. With a grooming relationship, 627 00:46:16,599 --> 00:46:21,280 some of the things that are important to highlight that we haven't said yet 628 00:46:21,320 --> 00:46:24,639 are that the frog boiling in water is an important component. That there's a 629 00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:35,320 slow and steady intrusion upon normal boundaries and a slow exclusion and creating of an 630 00:46:35,360 --> 00:46:43,079 exclusivity with inappropriate trust breaches at inappropriate times as a tactic to make the person 631 00:46:43,119 --> 00:46:49,400 who's receiving the inappropriate trust too early feel special and feel like a need is 632 00:46:49,440 --> 00:46:55,519 being met, so that they get guilted into keeping secrets they wouldn't normally because 633 00:46:55,559 --> 00:47:00,559 now a person with power has revealed their weakness to them and now made there 634 00:47:00,599 --> 00:47:07,239 that the victim's responsibility to hold the weakness or feigned weakness of the predator and 635 00:47:07,400 --> 00:47:12,679 keep it from other people. And that creates a sense of responsibility and duty. 636 00:47:12,719 --> 00:47:17,559 And this kind of oversharing, inappropriate sharing always sets up the big ask. 637 00:47:19,239 --> 00:47:23,280 Yeah, before the big ask comes, there's always steady breaches of trust 638 00:47:23,360 --> 00:47:30,320 earning, and then that trusting starts to turn yeah, and then you've just 639 00:47:30,360 --> 00:47:34,800 totally lost perspective, you know, as the person says happening too, So 640 00:47:34,880 --> 00:47:38,400 that by the time the big ask occurs, you don't realize you have less 641 00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:44,280 perspective on how inappropriate it is. I think in this movie we see core 642 00:47:44,360 --> 00:47:47,000 Line have a huge reaction to the big ask, and I wonder if that's 643 00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:52,599 also because it's happening at hyperspeed, like it's happened over like three nights. 644 00:47:52,920 --> 00:47:54,679 Yeah. I'll leave that there, but yeah, I don't know if you 645 00:47:54,719 --> 00:47:59,440 want to add something, Hannah, I was just going to say that grooming 646 00:48:00,119 --> 00:48:02,199 part of you know, A big part of grooming is the power dynamic. 647 00:48:02,960 --> 00:48:07,360 Who has the power, who doesn't have the power, And it's more it's 648 00:48:07,360 --> 00:48:12,039 so subtle. Yeah, it's so subtle. And also a lot of times 649 00:48:12,519 --> 00:48:16,239 the person who is being groomed, they don't think they can say no. 650 00:48:17,119 --> 00:48:22,920 Yeah it like, yes, it is a part of them getting to the 651 00:48:22,960 --> 00:48:25,400 big ask and doing all the things. But it's also that the person in 652 00:48:25,440 --> 00:48:30,800 that position won't think that they that they can say no to something, or 653 00:48:30,840 --> 00:48:34,679 they'll feel like they should say yes because this person has been so nice to 654 00:48:34,719 --> 00:48:37,360 them and so there's something or there's something like on the table that they don't 655 00:48:37,360 --> 00:48:44,760 want to lose exactly, and that there are and that when we're talking about 656 00:48:45,280 --> 00:48:49,320 in terms of what predators are looking for. They're looking for kind of how 657 00:48:49,320 --> 00:48:51,920 we you know, kind of how we've been talking about the dad. They 658 00:48:51,960 --> 00:48:54,760 look for somebody who's maybe like a loner, someone who isn't really talking to 659 00:48:54,800 --> 00:48:59,760 anyone, someone who maybe doesn't smile very much, a kid who's kind of 660 00:48:59,800 --> 00:49:04,559 by themselves. Those are some of the things that predators would be looking for. 661 00:49:04,760 --> 00:49:07,760 Now we don't really have that because Corline isn't really out in the world 662 00:49:07,800 --> 00:49:10,559 except for at the house. Well, the doll, because she says, 663 00:49:12,440 --> 00:49:16,239 the children say, you get the doll because it is a way for Bedlam, 664 00:49:16,280 --> 00:49:21,480 which is the other mother's real name, to watch you and to see 665 00:49:21,480 --> 00:49:24,880 how unhappy you are, basically scouting you to decide if you would be a 666 00:49:24,920 --> 00:49:30,119 good victim, right, and so you know, you guys are describing in 667 00:49:29,880 --> 00:49:34,039 a in a grooming relationship, which we did an episode on this and we 668 00:49:34,119 --> 00:49:36,559 did not cover the grooming done. So now I feel like I have to 669 00:49:37,119 --> 00:49:40,360 have to mention it is finding someone who's less powerful than you, more emotionally 670 00:49:40,480 --> 00:49:45,639 disregulated, and starting to show them a different power and different trust. Is 671 00:49:45,760 --> 00:49:52,119 precisely the dynamic we see between Rosa gul I know you're gonna Oh I knew 672 00:49:52,119 --> 00:49:54,719 you were going to make it, but I couldn't figure out how. I 673 00:49:54,760 --> 00:49:59,960 couldn't figure out how well. And so that's interesting because when you look at 674 00:50:00,519 --> 00:50:05,639 what you're all saying resonates with what you see in the cult literature as well 675 00:50:05,679 --> 00:50:09,440 as the some of the research on radicalization. So most of my research is 676 00:50:09,480 --> 00:50:13,599 on the need to belong and then what happens when that's threatened, when you 677 00:50:13,599 --> 00:50:19,199 feel socially excluded, and both of those areas are starting to connect these things 678 00:50:19,239 --> 00:50:23,199 more directly and looking at either interpersonal exclusions the people who are chronically excluded by 679 00:50:23,239 --> 00:50:27,039 friends, family, etc. Is some of the research, for example, 680 00:50:27,079 --> 00:50:32,159 on former cult recruiters who have sort of you know, been deep you know 681 00:50:32,239 --> 00:50:36,480 deep program themselves if you will, and are now sort of going out and 682 00:50:36,519 --> 00:50:40,960 sort of attacking trying to dismantle this problem. They talk about how they were 683 00:50:42,000 --> 00:50:45,679 being positioned in places of authority in like college campuses for example, maybe working 684 00:50:45,719 --> 00:50:51,760 in student services centers, etc. Where they would look for people who are 685 00:50:51,840 --> 00:50:54,719 dropping a bunch of classes or sitting by themselves, and you know, and 686 00:50:54,840 --> 00:50:58,519 it's like, for example, someone is dropping a bunch of classes, they're 687 00:50:58,519 --> 00:51:01,800 probably having other sorts of problems, and then you sort of target them. 688 00:51:02,199 --> 00:51:06,000 You bring them in and you love bomb them, and when they start to 689 00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:08,199 pull away, you pull the love away. And it's the sort of one 690 00:51:08,199 --> 00:51:12,400 of you had mentioned earlier, this idea of what's going to be removed if 691 00:51:12,400 --> 00:51:15,760 you say no to that person. Radicalization literature is looking at this very similarly 692 00:51:15,800 --> 00:51:21,519 for individuals who also feel excluded at the systemic level as well, you know, 693 00:51:21,559 --> 00:51:24,920 some aspect of their identity is marginalized. And there's this really great Ted 694 00:51:24,960 --> 00:51:30,480 talk Christian Piccolini I believe it's his last name, who was originally one of 695 00:51:30,519 --> 00:51:36,079 the sort of major movers in the American neo Nazi white supremacist movement in the 696 00:51:36,159 --> 00:51:40,280 nineties and has since had a redemption arc, if you will, that has 697 00:51:40,320 --> 00:51:45,920 now founded organizations to try and deradicalize people who have been sucked into these organizations. 698 00:51:46,159 --> 00:51:50,159 And when he tells a story like in this Ted talk, he talks 699 00:51:50,199 --> 00:51:55,840 about he was a disenfranchised youth and someone reached out to him and indoctrinated him 700 00:51:57,000 --> 00:52:01,199 into this white supremacist ideology. He had no reason to go other than he 701 00:52:01,280 --> 00:52:07,159 had very low socioeconomic status, very few friends, and here was a hand 702 00:52:07,199 --> 00:52:10,119 reaching out to him and that's all it took to sort of bring him into 703 00:52:10,159 --> 00:52:14,400 that world. And we see that, We see that so much, and 704 00:52:15,039 --> 00:52:19,559 it echoed in literature over and over like of course I will tell you anything 705 00:52:19,559 --> 00:52:24,800 I can to Batman detrol him and Brittany um. But also this is exactly 706 00:52:24,840 --> 00:52:31,960 the dynamic that we see Henry slash one slash Vecna try to pull eleven into 707 00:52:32,519 --> 00:52:36,400 oh m, yeah, that was a good example of Also that kind of 708 00:52:36,440 --> 00:52:43,599 grooming um you see him do with her. Yeah, yeah, love bombing 709 00:52:43,639 --> 00:52:47,599 is something that's getting more and more mainstream. That term um, specifically more 710 00:52:47,599 --> 00:52:52,559 in the dating world. Is where I heard a lot um and we see 711 00:52:52,559 --> 00:52:57,360 that here. It's it's how it sounds like immediately Corline goes into the other 712 00:52:57,440 --> 00:53:04,639 world and she's get oodles and oodles of personalized love and affection because it's not 713 00:53:04,800 --> 00:53:08,400 just I'm being affectionate and loving period, it's like it's specific to you. 714 00:53:09,039 --> 00:53:14,440 So mom is making her delicious food that's exactly what she likes to eat. 715 00:53:14,519 --> 00:53:17,320 Her dad is not just paying attention to her but writing songs for her. 716 00:53:19,119 --> 00:53:22,840 Everything is about how much they love her and how devoted they are to her, 717 00:53:22,320 --> 00:53:25,320 and you know, I mean they have a poison ivy on her hand 718 00:53:25,400 --> 00:53:30,280 or poison oh, and they treat that like. They're being so attentive. 719 00:53:30,639 --> 00:53:34,199 Everything they're doing in the beginning at face Valley, which is why grooming and 720 00:53:34,280 --> 00:53:37,360 this shit is so fucking sneaky is like I said, on paper, just 721 00:53:37,480 --> 00:53:42,880 sweet and caring and affectionate and not inappropriate. They're just being so honed in 722 00:53:43,039 --> 00:53:45,880 on her. Which is the point of this story, is that at face 723 00:53:45,239 --> 00:53:50,199 at first, you're like, oh, these people are amazing. Her real 724 00:53:50,280 --> 00:53:54,400 parents suck and these people are great, you know, And so you do 725 00:53:54,559 --> 00:54:00,239 except for the buttons, which are an eerie detail and really great is you 726 00:54:00,360 --> 00:54:05,000 were all in and you would be in agreement with her about how much she 727 00:54:05,159 --> 00:54:08,599 takes to them and wants to keep going back to their world. It's very 728 00:54:08,679 --> 00:54:14,199 classic love bombing. And then kind of going back to what you were saying 729 00:54:14,280 --> 00:54:20,719 Hannah about how grooming is not just ingratiating yourself but also excluding everybody else, 730 00:54:21,280 --> 00:54:23,079 is that there are these little ways in which the mom, the other mother, 731 00:54:23,159 --> 00:54:27,400 starts to do that. Like the quote I wrote down is she says 732 00:54:27,440 --> 00:54:30,440 something like, go get your father and she says, you mean my other 733 00:54:30,559 --> 00:54:32,360 father, and she goes, no, I mean your better father, and 734 00:54:32,519 --> 00:54:36,280 so she's but she says it very throwaway, like it's not like a huge 735 00:54:36,440 --> 00:54:38,119 moment. She's just like and then she goes back to cooking. And so 736 00:54:38,239 --> 00:54:43,400 it's these little ways where the other mother and the other parents start to slowly 737 00:54:43,480 --> 00:54:49,320 devalue her relationship to her actual parents and pump up their relationship to her. 738 00:54:49,639 --> 00:54:53,800 Yeah. Absolutely, and it's just I'm trying to think of other well. 739 00:54:53,840 --> 00:54:57,599 I also thought was interesting this is more just like a like something I was 740 00:54:57,960 --> 00:55:01,920 I noticed more this time around is that at first the other mother tries to 741 00:55:02,039 --> 00:55:07,639 look a lot like her real mom, dressing like her, acting like her 742 00:55:07,320 --> 00:55:13,159 besides the positive nice stuff, and then slowly, slowly, like almost like 743 00:55:13,280 --> 00:55:16,639 one piece of clothing at a time, starts looking more and more like her 744 00:55:16,719 --> 00:55:20,320 true self, until finally, at the end of the movie she's that big 745 00:55:20,360 --> 00:55:24,079 old spider monster. And that was also even though we're seeing a sped up 746 00:55:24,199 --> 00:55:30,159 version of grooming like that is also an interesting honest portrayal of it too, 747 00:55:30,719 --> 00:55:37,639 of how first they're trying to seem very familiar and un alarming and then slowly 748 00:55:37,840 --> 00:55:43,119 changing until piece by piece, until you're at a point where you didn't even 749 00:55:43,400 --> 00:55:45,880 you like look up almost and you're like, oh, you're a totally different 750 00:55:45,880 --> 00:55:47,960 person than where this started. And I couldn't even tell you how that happened. 751 00:55:49,840 --> 00:55:53,480 Yeah, absolutely, yep, And that it always happens. It happens 752 00:55:53,599 --> 00:56:01,800 fast, and in the turn to switch from loving to anger happens very quickly 753 00:56:02,000 --> 00:56:07,039 upon the first refusal. Yeah. Yeah, And I think Eric, I'm 754 00:56:07,079 --> 00:56:10,960 glad you mentioned love bombing and listen, because those are typical things we see 755 00:56:12,440 --> 00:56:16,199 in people who get into relationships with people with narcissistic traits or personality disorders. 756 00:56:16,320 --> 00:56:22,039 Is they will love bomb, they will be your fantasy, they will bring 757 00:56:22,119 --> 00:56:25,840 you everything, they will give you so much attention. And I have had 758 00:56:25,920 --> 00:56:32,000 people who have been utterly destroyed by those people because they come into life so 759 00:56:32,159 --> 00:56:37,480 quick and they just drop out with nothing and for almost no reason. So 760 00:56:37,599 --> 00:56:45,599 people are left stuck processing guilt and manufacturing situations by reanalyzing every single step they 761 00:56:45,679 --> 00:56:52,039 made with that person to see what they did wrong that they blew it with 762 00:56:52,320 --> 00:56:58,880 their dream partner. Yeah, because someone's manufacturing a level of intimacy that is 763 00:56:58,960 --> 00:57:02,280 not real. Right. But then much like much like our friend Race comes 764 00:57:02,360 --> 00:57:07,159 back around and tries to loop Bruce in over and over again. And I'm 765 00:57:07,239 --> 00:57:09,480 using Race, not ros Now because the one of my Race is one of 766 00:57:09,519 --> 00:57:15,079 my favorite villains and him constantly, constantly, constantly, no matter what, 767 00:57:15,559 --> 00:57:20,079 always coming back to offering Batman and Olive Branch, so much so that he 768 00:57:20,159 --> 00:57:23,960 gets him to produce a grandchild with his daughter that becomes a Robin. But 769 00:57:24,079 --> 00:57:35,599 that's a we'll cover that later. But the never Wail Damian Wayne appears in 770 00:57:35,639 --> 00:57:43,880 a movie. But anyway, well, watching, watching, how persistent the 771 00:57:44,320 --> 00:57:50,559 person who has been loved, bombing or offering all of these doting behaviors comes 772 00:57:50,760 --> 00:57:52,880 back around with it. They take it away, Like the cult leaders are 773 00:57:52,920 --> 00:57:57,599 talking like they'll they'll give it, They'll take it away, and then they'll 774 00:57:57,679 --> 00:58:00,480 come back and offer it again after they punished you enough. Yeah, and 775 00:58:00,639 --> 00:58:06,039 we hear that from the ghost children. They say, you know, she 776 00:58:07,199 --> 00:58:09,639 was everything we wanted. She knew we were unhappy, and then she said 777 00:58:09,719 --> 00:58:13,119 like, in order for us to stay and this, which says to Alied 778 00:58:13,159 --> 00:58:16,760 too, you have to give yourself up. You have to give yourself away 779 00:58:17,320 --> 00:58:21,679 and let us eat you, which is what the ghost children say, they 780 00:58:21,719 --> 00:58:24,000 eat us up, and so I think that is the classic part of this 781 00:58:24,199 --> 00:58:29,360 too is it's also yeah, is like you give all the good things first 782 00:58:29,440 --> 00:58:34,840 you then you throw them on their back feet by switching up your attitude. 783 00:58:35,519 --> 00:58:37,800 And that's also so confusing as well. Like what we're all talking about in 784 00:58:37,840 --> 00:58:42,719 different ways too is even if we go and the absolutely we talked about sort 785 00:58:42,719 --> 00:58:45,960 of the abuse cycle as well is and like more of the domestic violence cycle 786 00:58:46,159 --> 00:58:50,280 is when someone has seen the good parts of it, when things get bad, 787 00:58:50,800 --> 00:58:53,559 it's so confusing, and your part of you is still like, but 788 00:58:53,719 --> 00:58:58,440 I know that they we have good times together, So I know that version 789 00:58:58,559 --> 00:59:04,719 of this life exists, and I'm not ready to give that away because what 790 00:59:04,840 --> 00:59:09,079 I'd be returning to maybe it's worth it to stay here for the good times, 791 00:59:09,199 --> 00:59:15,000 because my assumption is with the ghost children that they might have had tougher 792 00:59:15,079 --> 00:59:21,320 lives and so maybe they were more vulnerable than Coraline, which also kind of 793 00:59:21,360 --> 00:59:23,760 goes back to our speculation of like what her parents and her relationship might have 794 00:59:23,800 --> 00:59:29,719 been like outside of the timeline of this movie. Because she does she pushes 795 00:59:29,760 --> 00:59:32,199 back and fights back and all this it's going to like immediately in a way 796 00:59:32,280 --> 00:59:37,159 that speaks to a kid who might feel more grounded in their real life. 797 00:59:37,880 --> 00:59:43,039 Well, and so the points you make about Brittany about connecting it to the 798 00:59:43,599 --> 00:59:49,400 interpersonal relationship abuse domain, it also makes me think about some of the points 799 00:59:49,440 --> 00:59:52,679 you're all making about how there was this subtle devaluing, right, And when 800 00:59:52,719 --> 00:59:57,079 you look at at least some of the research I'm familiar with, some of 801 00:59:57,199 --> 01:00:01,000 my mentors in graduate school did lot of work on what was called the commitment 802 01:00:01,079 --> 01:00:05,199 model of relationships. So this is used to look at a lot of different 803 01:00:05,880 --> 01:00:09,280 relationships, romantic or otherwise. But some of the early work on it really 804 01:00:09,519 --> 01:00:16,519 was an attempt to understand why folks would stay in abusive relationships, why they 805 01:00:16,559 --> 01:00:21,679 would be committed. And there's different factors that were sort of predicting that. 806 01:00:21,760 --> 01:00:24,039 One is satisfaction, you know, what are the outcomes that you're getting? 807 01:00:24,239 --> 01:00:28,840 Are the good outweighing the bad? Then what would be your alternatives after that? 808 01:00:29,199 --> 01:00:31,880 And but the early work was like, well, folks who are in 809 01:00:31,960 --> 01:00:39,280 these relationships the alternative being alone would be better than what they're currently getting, 810 01:00:39,320 --> 01:00:43,719 So why are some folks will staying? And then they added to that was 811 01:00:44,239 --> 01:00:52,119 investments, right, and so when the textbook abusers would slowly but surely make 812 01:00:52,840 --> 01:00:58,239 you know the victim dependent upon them. And I think we were talking about, 813 01:00:58,280 --> 01:01:00,920 you know, sort of devaluing the other social support. So father, 814 01:01:01,039 --> 01:01:05,960 no, your better father, right, and friends, family, anybody who 815 01:01:06,039 --> 01:01:09,639 could provide resources to help that person leave are slowly but surely stripped away, 816 01:01:10,000 --> 01:01:15,880 so that even if your satisfactionism is down, your alternatives will be better. 817 01:01:15,480 --> 01:01:20,480 Those investments keep you there. Right, That was sort of just what you 818 01:01:20,559 --> 01:01:23,239 were talking about. Maybe think a model from graduate school, which is great. 819 01:01:23,320 --> 01:01:27,480 And yeah, the other thing to add on top of that. The 820 01:01:27,679 --> 01:01:30,239 more I think about this, the more I think about how masterful all his 821 01:01:30,320 --> 01:01:34,719 writing is in general, but looking at how it was depicted in this is 822 01:01:35,360 --> 01:01:38,679 part of the turn when the big gass comes and if it's denied, is 823 01:01:38,800 --> 01:01:45,559 that the other thing besides devaluing your other supports is they have been secret sharing 824 01:01:45,599 --> 01:01:54,360 with you and gaining leverage, and they use right almost always, they find 825 01:01:54,519 --> 01:02:00,039 something to do to turn that leverage on you and usually create some kind of 826 01:02:00,280 --> 01:02:07,679 thing that involves you embarrassing your family or them telling and how they start tying 827 01:02:07,960 --> 01:02:12,719 shame into the bigger picture of we'll think about what everyone would say or think 828 01:02:13,000 --> 01:02:16,400 how embarrassed your family would be, or how your parents would lose everything. 829 01:02:16,760 --> 01:02:22,480 And in this movie, the leverage for sacrificing herself to become eaten, which 830 01:02:22,559 --> 01:02:25,960 she knows are the stakes, is that the monster knew she wanted her real 831 01:02:27,000 --> 01:02:30,639 parents back, and the monster took the parents. It always finds the thing 832 01:02:30,320 --> 01:02:34,719 that they always find the thing to gain leverage over whatever it is, to 833 01:02:34,960 --> 01:02:39,840 be able to break through your walls and resistance points in every way that they 834 01:02:39,920 --> 01:02:44,880 can, so that you are utterly helpless against them. And they did that. 835 01:02:45,880 --> 01:02:51,320 The monster Bedlam did that with this by actually coming for her parents and 836 01:02:51,519 --> 01:02:55,480 making her actually see what it would feel like to be isolated in a weird 837 01:02:55,559 --> 01:03:00,599 place with just these circus performing neighbors who you just met, who are all 838 01:03:01,119 --> 01:03:05,960 you know, they've retired circus performers, basically, and realizing how alone you 839 01:03:06,039 --> 01:03:07,400 are so you have to turn to me. Now, Yeah, I mean 840 01:03:07,440 --> 01:03:12,920 that's a great well. The movie does literally what usually happens metaphorically, which 841 01:03:13,039 --> 01:03:15,880 is we take your parents from you, We take your relationship with your parents 842 01:03:15,920 --> 01:03:20,239 away from you. And it's all the language that the abuser uses. There's 843 01:03:20,239 --> 01:03:23,360 a lot of I'm your family. Now, there's a lot of there's a 844 01:03:23,440 --> 01:03:27,599 lot of you don't need anybody else. Why would you need anybody else besides 845 01:03:27,719 --> 01:03:30,400 me? Like I thought that we were I thought that you were committed to 846 01:03:30,519 --> 01:03:35,280 this. Like there are so many different parts of the language that go along 847 01:03:35,440 --> 01:03:39,599 with just shaming the person in general, and also that eventually, you know, 848 01:03:39,679 --> 01:03:45,599 when we talk about the domestic abuse cycle, is that eventually the honeymoon 849 01:03:45,719 --> 01:03:50,960 period doesn't happen anymore and it's just bad all the time. Like that's what 850 01:03:51,199 --> 01:03:53,239 that's Yeah, they eat you, Yeah, Like that's what ends up happening. 851 01:03:53,719 --> 01:03:59,760 Another part of the language that an abuser would use is also that but 852 01:03:59,840 --> 01:04:01,559 I did this for you last week, Like I just got you flowers and 853 01:04:01,639 --> 01:04:04,119 we just went on this thing, and like, what are you talking about? 854 01:04:04,599 --> 01:04:06,840 I thought that you said that you were in this for the things that 855 01:04:06,920 --> 01:04:12,880 were good. Like there's so many there's so much of that that essentially they 856 01:04:13,320 --> 01:04:16,639 completely shape your reality. And that's a part of what's so hard to get 857 01:04:16,679 --> 01:04:19,400 away from. And when you only have one voice and that's the only voice 858 01:04:19,440 --> 01:04:24,519 you're allowed to hear, it's hard to believe, to believe anything. That's 859 01:04:24,679 --> 01:04:29,239 because it gets into your it starts where then you start doubting yourself. And 860 01:04:29,400 --> 01:04:32,320 once we start doubting ourselves and not trusting ourselves, well, you don't really 861 01:04:32,360 --> 01:04:35,320 feel that way though, right because that's not what you said last week. 862 01:04:36,000 --> 01:04:41,239 Like there's like there's so much of that. It's like so so repeated and 863 01:04:41,400 --> 01:04:44,039 just happens for such a long time, and I feel like I feel like 864 01:04:44,079 --> 01:04:46,039 one of the things that's really that I really love core Line, which is 865 01:04:46,039 --> 01:04:50,039 why I'm probably not going to talk about her too much in treatment, is 866 01:04:50,119 --> 01:04:56,199 because she's pretty fucking resilient. And this woman comes at her and she not 867 01:04:56,360 --> 01:05:00,800 only figures out like right away what she needs to due to win, but 868 01:05:00,920 --> 01:05:03,599 then doesn't like there isn't there'sn't a well I don't know, yeah, my 869 01:05:03,679 --> 01:05:05,920 parents do suck. Sometimes she's like, no, I don't want to do 870 01:05:06,039 --> 01:05:10,679 this. I don't yeah, yeah, like I don't like, yeah, 871 01:05:10,760 --> 01:05:13,400 the first time was cool, but you guys are freaking me the fuck out. 872 01:05:13,960 --> 01:05:16,079 Well, the movie does a good job of showing from the very beginning 873 01:05:16,480 --> 01:05:23,760 that she's a pretty spunky, confident, rascally kid and and she doesn't have 874 01:05:23,840 --> 01:05:29,639 any problem getting in people's faces and you know, being very fire sign esque 875 01:05:30,199 --> 01:05:34,800 and those become strengths for her. I mean they always kind of probably are, 876 01:05:35,000 --> 01:05:39,920 but they've become a really become strengths for her at the end of this 877 01:05:40,079 --> 01:05:43,000 movie, because she's a kid who will you know, God bless her mom, 878 01:05:43,079 --> 01:05:45,960 I guess getting her getting a parent's face, and you know, she 879 01:05:46,079 --> 01:05:53,440 doesn't have the rules around her. That's that can actually make kids victims too. 880 01:05:53,559 --> 01:05:56,599 Of can aid with grooming, which is where she's not really concerned about 881 01:05:56,599 --> 01:06:00,440 being respectful or being polite. I think the movie does a good job of 882 01:06:00,599 --> 01:06:03,719 establishing that in the beginning two of like this is the kid who will be 883 01:06:03,920 --> 01:06:10,400 like, oh, you know whatever, and has no compunctions about being seen 884 01:06:10,440 --> 01:06:14,480 as like a good, well behaved kid. He does not, as you 885 01:06:14,559 --> 01:06:16,320 guys have been talking Hannah and Brittany, you know that thing that I do 886 01:06:16,480 --> 01:06:19,039 or my brain starts spinning and then it clicks on something and I make you 887 01:06:19,159 --> 01:06:21,880 both really mad at me. But then it's going to spark discussion. I 888 01:06:21,960 --> 01:06:26,239 knew what was happening. I knew what was happening. Go ahead, I 889 01:06:26,360 --> 01:06:32,280 have a very very important debate question to ask in thinking about Coraline and how 890 01:06:32,400 --> 01:06:38,719 she behaves and how the bedlam kind of turned really quickly. Had a different 891 01:06:38,840 --> 01:06:44,960 person asked Coraline if she had ever heard the tragedy of darth Plagus the wise, 892 01:06:45,400 --> 01:06:50,440 would she become a scythe or not. I don't think I'm qualified to 893 01:06:50,440 --> 01:06:56,679 answer that question. I don't always used to learn those terms. Yea to 894 01:06:56,760 --> 01:06:58,960 know what you're talking about. No, you're not you did an episode, 895 01:06:59,239 --> 01:07:00,880 You're not too cool face lightning fingers right, No, that's not no. 896 01:07:01,079 --> 01:07:04,960 Yes, he's the one who says that to the dorc the emo dork. 897 01:07:05,079 --> 01:07:14,280 Right, say that again, pizza face lightning, fingers, lingers, Grand 898 01:07:14,360 --> 01:07:18,800 Titan. What's that dude's name? Yeah, there we go. My brain 899 01:07:18,920 --> 01:07:24,599 refuses to absorb this information. I know, I know, I never remember. 900 01:07:25,119 --> 01:07:30,679 I will I will fully have amnesia around Star Wars information. So, 901 01:07:30,920 --> 01:07:32,679 because I know Eric knows, I'm just gonna ask Eric, if Eric, 902 01:07:32,760 --> 01:07:38,360 do you think someone is completely competent at manipulation as Palpatine would have been able 903 01:07:38,400 --> 01:07:41,960 to turn Coraline because he would have been more patient and more deliberate. So 904 01:07:42,079 --> 01:07:45,880 we're mixing universes here, we are. Um. I would say that this 905 01:07:46,440 --> 01:07:50,280 kind of gets at the point that we sort of one of the points that 906 01:07:50,280 --> 01:07:54,480 we've kind of been coming back to that we're only getting a couple of days, 907 01:07:55,199 --> 01:08:00,920 right, and so had Bedlam not turned up the speed, right, 908 01:08:00,039 --> 01:08:04,920 and had they played a more long game, maybe Coraline wouldn't have picked up 909 01:08:05,320 --> 01:08:11,079 right. And so to sort of transition that Palpa team is playing a game 910 01:08:11,159 --> 01:08:15,760 over nine movies, right, I mean, I mean apparently apparently that's what 911 01:08:15,880 --> 01:08:18,720 we're being told. That's what is happening. If we ignore the fact that 912 01:08:18,800 --> 01:08:23,960 he was resurrected in the most recent trilogy. Um, if we just so, 913 01:08:24,119 --> 01:08:28,399 we would just forget that movie exists, if we just focus on the 914 01:08:28,479 --> 01:08:33,359 first six Yeah, he is playing the long game, right, Um so 915 01:08:34,000 --> 01:08:38,079 I it's apples and oranges. But sure, let's go with it, right 916 01:08:39,880 --> 01:08:46,479 Grand Teton Emperor. Yeah, what's the sense If anybody could do it, 917 01:08:47,159 --> 01:08:50,039 the force is strong with him. I think I would need to know. 918 01:08:50,159 --> 01:08:54,720 These are such weird questions, such a tangent, but I would have to 919 01:08:54,920 --> 01:09:00,680 know if Coraline is a plays team sports or joints club, or if that's 920 01:09:00,720 --> 01:09:02,680 not her jam and she does her own thing with her own friends, if 921 01:09:02,760 --> 01:09:06,359 like she is almost like that only child independent vibe where she doesn't need to 922 01:09:06,479 --> 01:09:12,960 belong to like or I'm sure you know this more than me because your research, 923 01:09:13,640 --> 01:09:17,199 or she's not told that she's special the way that that dork Emoi dork 924 01:09:17,279 --> 01:09:20,840 Anakin is so. Also, I think that she doesn't have that going for 925 01:09:21,039 --> 01:09:25,359 her in a positive way. I feel like the easiest answer I can say 926 01:09:25,439 --> 01:09:30,279 is no, I don't think she would come as. I don't like she'd 927 01:09:30,319 --> 01:09:32,199 like fuck around with Yoda and be like this seems fun over here. I 928 01:09:32,279 --> 01:09:35,199 like to get weird, and I don't think she would has a little swamp 929 01:09:35,319 --> 01:09:40,800 land and like Fragle Rock or wherever he lives, Fregle Rock. It definitely 930 01:09:40,920 --> 01:09:45,600 is out in that motherfuck swamp. There's absolutely no doubt. But I really 931 01:09:45,680 --> 01:09:48,319 feel like she I don't think she would want to be in something where the 932 01:09:48,479 --> 01:09:53,319 rules are so rigid. That's what I mean. Like does she played team 933 01:09:53,439 --> 01:09:56,479 like? Is she? Yeah? Yeah? Like I think your questions about 934 01:09:56,479 --> 01:09:59,439 that, does she like to run around and do her own thing? Are 935 01:09:59,520 --> 01:10:03,960 the rule being a sith that rigid? Oh? There you go on that 936 01:10:04,119 --> 01:10:11,000 note, I think we should go to treatment. Hold on, I'm doing 937 01:10:11,079 --> 01:10:15,079 my vest yea, I know you are. I mean, I'm just gonna 938 01:10:15,079 --> 01:10:18,720 ahead and uh, I think that they're rigid. I think that they're rigid 939 01:10:18,760 --> 01:10:23,680 in terms of there's someone that is always the boss of you. There's always 940 01:10:23,720 --> 01:10:26,439 someone that you have to be, you have to bow down to, and 941 01:10:26,560 --> 01:10:30,520 in some way, there's always someone who has control of your emotional well being. 942 01:10:30,840 --> 01:10:34,079 I think that it's rigid in terms of as this young person that we're 943 01:10:34,079 --> 01:10:39,479 seeing as she develops into a full adult, I don't think that she would 944 01:10:39,479 --> 01:10:43,000 want to be in anything that is that rigid, where there is a supreme 945 01:10:43,359 --> 01:10:45,560 whatever, like I don't. I just don't see that for her. I 946 01:10:45,680 --> 01:10:48,079 just hope that she would be like sounds like a bunch of nerds over here, 947 01:10:48,479 --> 01:10:51,640 a little clubhouse, and I don't want to wear black all the time. 948 01:10:53,359 --> 01:10:58,319 So I think she's a color girl. She has so much many different 949 01:10:58,319 --> 01:11:00,680 colors she is. I think for me, the only reason why I find 950 01:11:00,720 --> 01:11:06,279 a question interesting is because Bedlam was only competent for a very short time. 951 01:11:06,359 --> 01:11:12,079 She was extremely impatient and wanted what she wanted because she was hungry. And 952 01:11:12,319 --> 01:11:15,560 yeah, you know, like Geric was talking about, is that Palpatine plays 953 01:11:15,640 --> 01:11:30,520 slow. He plays the long game of definitely yes, similar look too pretty 954 01:11:30,640 --> 01:11:34,800 much. That's a good point you make about Bedlam being hungry, because they 955 01:11:34,880 --> 01:11:39,159 do make a point in the beginning of the movie. Why Be says to 956 01:11:39,279 --> 01:11:44,720 Coraline, I'm surprised you're here because my grandma hasn't let children live in this 957 01:11:44,920 --> 01:11:47,760 house for a long time. So you're right, she probably is like starving 958 01:11:48,039 --> 01:11:51,520 because she because the ghost children all we were in like old timey clothing, 959 01:11:51,560 --> 01:11:57,760 and she probably hasn't had a meal for decades. And whyb's the only possible 960 01:11:58,000 --> 01:12:00,920 knack. And he says, my grandma will not let me in that house. 961 01:12:00,760 --> 01:12:03,239 He hasn't. She hasn't anyone in a while. So as much as 962 01:12:03,239 --> 01:12:10,000 I would love to continue down this sith hole, I will pivot back because 963 01:12:10,359 --> 01:12:13,600 you make a great point about the grandma hasn't let any kids live there, 964 01:12:13,880 --> 01:12:16,960 Then why is the grandma broken that rule? Now? I was very curious 965 01:12:17,000 --> 01:12:20,159 about that too. I was very curious about that. Maybe she thinks it's 966 01:12:20,199 --> 01:12:25,399 been long enough that maybe I don't know, I don't know. There's a 967 01:12:25,399 --> 01:12:28,600 lot of like that is a big plot hole in the movie in my opinion 968 01:12:29,039 --> 01:12:31,920 of why that happened well, And I wonder if it's something that's flushed out 969 01:12:31,960 --> 01:12:35,600 in the book because I was thinking about it could also be, like the 970 01:12:35,680 --> 01:12:41,039 way that we've been talking about the people in this film possibly being lower scs 971 01:12:41,319 --> 01:12:45,520 in general. Maybe it's she just got to a point where she had to 972 01:12:45,159 --> 01:12:48,479 rent it out and the only people that were interested was this couple and they 973 01:12:48,520 --> 01:12:50,760 happen to have a kid, and they happen to have a kid, And 974 01:12:50,920 --> 01:12:55,159 she was like maybe, I mean, like that's that's a lot of assumption 975 01:12:55,279 --> 01:12:58,439 making. But yeah, but also this point, she's living off circus money 976 01:12:58,520 --> 01:13:01,800 rent pretty much, right, and it's you can see ybe that he's got 977 01:13:01,880 --> 01:13:08,520 circus or to him even more mean, the parents didn't talk about her, 978 01:13:09,399 --> 01:13:13,720 so they didn't know. Could be I think that is a fascinating plan. 979 01:13:13,840 --> 01:13:16,880 The ethical question of that has been bothering me and definitely was one of the 980 01:13:17,199 --> 01:13:21,119 questions that stuck out in my head too of how did this grandmother that lost 981 01:13:21,199 --> 01:13:28,399 her sister to this house now suddenly break the containment she had on it, 982 01:13:28,479 --> 01:13:30,119 the quarantine on it, if you will, people that had children, to 983 01:13:30,319 --> 01:13:35,600 some of that had children, and now that child, that child solved her 984 01:13:35,760 --> 01:13:41,279 biggest loss, the biggest mystery of her life that she's obviously been aware of. 985 01:13:42,439 --> 01:13:47,079 But she did nothing to one said child to not fall into the monster's 986 01:13:47,159 --> 01:13:51,279 trap. There are some serious ethical questions there. I think that's what I 987 01:13:51,359 --> 01:13:56,279 mean, like the limitations of having a story that's so aggressively from the standpoint 988 01:13:56,359 --> 01:14:00,760 of a child, where we really do not see anything. We get information 989 01:14:00,279 --> 01:14:04,680 that would not be known by coraline, like absolutely none. All right, 990 01:14:04,760 --> 01:14:09,079 so we will swerve into treatment now, but before that we will take another 991 01:14:09,119 --> 01:14:14,000 break. All right. So I know, Eric, you are joining us 992 01:14:14,039 --> 01:14:16,960 from a different perspective. You're not like a practicing therapist, I don't believe 993 01:14:17,000 --> 01:14:19,520 like the rest of us, so I didn't know. I'll give you the 994 01:14:20,119 --> 01:14:25,600 option if you have any thoughts based on your research that you think would be 995 01:14:25,680 --> 01:14:28,800 handy here, or even your personal variance. But if not, that's okay 996 01:14:28,880 --> 01:14:32,199 too. Or if there's a question that you want us to answer about we 997 01:14:32,239 --> 01:14:34,760 haven't done that before. I like that. Well. I kind of throws 998 01:14:34,840 --> 01:14:39,840 a couple out earlier with how would the we would rewrite the ending, But 999 01:14:39,960 --> 01:14:43,239 we'll just see if what comes up as you talk. I may just throw 1000 01:14:43,359 --> 01:14:45,239 something out there. And as a non practitioner, well, so then, 1001 01:14:45,319 --> 01:14:49,520 Hannah, I know that the treatment that you and I had in mind for 1002 01:14:49,640 --> 01:14:53,960 this kind of alliance with that question, so I can throw it to you 1003 01:14:54,119 --> 01:14:58,239 first, all right. So when I was thinking about treatment for this film, 1004 01:14:58,640 --> 01:15:01,000 I was thinking a lot of out because we were talking so much about 1005 01:15:01,039 --> 01:15:08,720 grooming. I was really thinking about how do we help parents have more awareness 1006 01:15:09,039 --> 01:15:15,079 of how to educate their children about not necessarily about something like this happening, 1007 01:15:15,600 --> 01:15:20,159 but what is a good way to give education that is meaningful and helpful for 1008 01:15:20,439 --> 01:15:24,920 a young person, but also for the parents to give us a chance where 1009 01:15:25,000 --> 01:15:30,439 the kid will feel comfortable telling us if something does happen. And so just 1010 01:15:30,520 --> 01:15:33,279 a couple of things that I wanted to just bring up and talk about for 1011 01:15:33,399 --> 01:15:38,960 parents in general, as a couple of different things that that can really help 1012 01:15:39,000 --> 01:15:41,399 if something does happen, that your child will be able to come to you, 1013 01:15:41,880 --> 01:15:46,199 and that because you have already set up a series of Basically, it 1014 01:15:46,279 --> 01:15:51,039 comes down to a couple of different things. One is something that's really important 1015 01:15:51,039 --> 01:15:56,079 for your children to know is if any adult asks you to keep a secret, 1016 01:15:56,439 --> 01:16:00,119 let me know right away. You don't have to keep a secret. 1017 01:16:00,279 --> 01:16:03,399 If an adult asks you to do that, you let me know, because 1018 01:16:03,439 --> 01:16:09,920 an adult shouldn't be asking you to keep a secret right off the bat right, 1019 01:16:10,359 --> 01:16:13,640 It just shouldn't be. It's something that should be happening. The second. 1020 01:16:13,880 --> 01:16:19,199 The second piece is about talking a lot more about consent with children at 1021 01:16:19,279 --> 01:16:24,600 all different ages. And I'm not talking about doing something that's inappropriate somehow. 1022 01:16:24,680 --> 01:16:29,560 What I'm talking about using the real names for their body parts so that if 1023 01:16:29,640 --> 01:16:33,840 something does happen, they can explain it to you based on their understanding of 1024 01:16:33,880 --> 01:16:39,960 their body parts. Also, we talk about consent, and consent can be 1025 01:16:40,520 --> 01:16:45,039 is any you should have to ask for permission for anyone to touch any part 1026 01:16:45,079 --> 01:16:48,000 of your physical body. If someone doesn't ask permission, you don't have to 1027 01:16:48,119 --> 01:16:54,079 engage with any kind of physical touching or hugging that you don't want to and 1028 01:16:54,279 --> 01:16:59,159 no one deserves your physical touch. You don't know that to anybody exactly, 1029 01:16:59,479 --> 01:17:01,319 And I will never make you. I will never put you in a position 1030 01:17:01,479 --> 01:17:06,359 where you have to hug someone or you have to talk to someone. This 1031 01:17:06,680 --> 01:17:12,159 is about I want you to know that you have control over who who is 1032 01:17:12,159 --> 01:17:15,840 allowed to touch your body, and if anybody asks you to do something you 1033 01:17:15,880 --> 01:17:18,119 don't want to do again, let me know. Because a part of me 1034 01:17:18,239 --> 01:17:23,479 being your parent is helping you have some protection even when you're not with me. 1035 01:17:23,720 --> 01:17:26,680 So I feel like those are two. Those are kind of two of 1036 01:17:26,840 --> 01:17:30,840 the of the a couple of the big things. So teaching kids about consent, 1037 01:17:30,720 --> 01:17:34,840 about touching, about any anything that's happening to their body, talking to 1038 01:17:34,920 --> 01:17:39,920 them about keeping secrets from adults, and you, and then you as the 1039 01:17:40,000 --> 01:17:43,960 parent, paying attention to other adults taking a special interest in your kid. 1040 01:17:44,760 --> 01:17:46,920 Now, am I going to say that every single person who's taking a special 1041 01:17:47,000 --> 01:17:51,039 interest in your kid is a greep? No, I'm not. I'm not. 1042 01:17:51,520 --> 01:17:56,039 And that is something to look out for. That is something to be 1043 01:17:56,119 --> 01:17:59,840 aware of as a parent. The other thing that I wanted to talk about 1044 01:18:00,279 --> 01:18:03,760 is a little bit about how can parents take care of themselves? I know, 1045 01:18:04,079 --> 01:18:06,399 and I know that it came up we were talking about COVID, how 1046 01:18:06,600 --> 01:18:12,560 different things have been for everyone, the difference between having a place that you 1047 01:18:12,720 --> 01:18:15,439 go to work getting the work done, having your home be like the place 1048 01:18:15,479 --> 01:18:18,399 where you don't have to bring any of that with you. And sure do 1049 01:18:18,520 --> 01:18:21,680 some of us all work from home a little bit from our jobs. Yeah, 1050 01:18:21,680 --> 01:18:26,119 I think that was always something that was happening, but the huge shift 1051 01:18:26,279 --> 01:18:30,640 of that not being a possibility and trying to figure out how do you help 1052 01:18:30,760 --> 01:18:39,520 your children understand that this is work and that even though I'm here, these 1053 01:18:39,600 --> 01:18:44,600 hours are kind of protected and if it is an emergency, you're always allowed 1054 01:18:44,640 --> 01:18:48,399 to tell me, And then we define what is an emergency so that they're 1055 01:18:48,479 --> 01:18:51,800 not the ones defining. That's the other part about all these things. We 1056 01:18:51,920 --> 01:18:57,079 don't want the kid to have to be the one who's defining what is okay? 1057 01:18:57,640 --> 01:19:00,359 Do I have to keep a secret from an adult? You don't want 1058 01:19:00,439 --> 01:19:03,800 kids having to make those decisions. We want them to know to already have 1059 01:19:04,159 --> 01:19:09,319 something to go with. So coming back a little bit about how to help 1060 01:19:09,439 --> 01:19:12,840 parents take good care of themselves. I work with and have worked with, 1061 01:19:13,119 --> 01:19:17,079 all different kinds of family systems, all different kinds of people taking care of 1062 01:19:17,159 --> 01:19:21,720 other people, having several generations living in the house. I know that the 1063 01:19:21,880 --> 01:19:27,239 idea of parent self care feels like what the fuck are you even talking about? 1064 01:19:27,279 --> 01:19:29,960 And why are you talking? You're wasting my time, like you're wasting 1065 01:19:30,039 --> 01:19:31,760 my time bringing this up right now. And what I want to say is 1066 01:19:31,880 --> 01:19:36,720 I'm not talking about getting a massage. I am talking about figuring out either 1067 01:19:36,840 --> 01:19:42,359 how to get support from people around you to get a break for yourself. 1068 01:19:42,800 --> 01:19:46,760 Every single human being needs a little bit of alone time. And I'm not 1069 01:19:46,840 --> 01:19:50,279 saying it has to be four hours every week. It can be twenty minutes 1070 01:19:50,640 --> 01:19:55,000 on Sundays. But there has to be a little bit of time to help 1071 01:19:55,079 --> 01:20:00,920 bring you back to what are the things that help me distress? And can 1072 01:20:00,000 --> 01:20:04,319 I do that for five minutes? Can I listen to a podcast that I 1073 01:20:04,439 --> 01:20:11,000 like? Can I just even do a meditation for ten minutes? I'm not 1074 01:20:11,119 --> 01:20:15,680 asking because I know that a part of being a parent is so overwhelming and 1075 01:20:15,800 --> 01:20:19,439 has been so much more intense than it has been in the last three years 1076 01:20:19,600 --> 01:20:23,479 than it had been. There was a lot of support, There's a lot 1077 01:20:23,520 --> 01:20:26,119 of things that were set up that were very conducive to the lives that we 1078 01:20:26,199 --> 01:20:29,960 were all living. And then COVID happened and that has not been the case. 1079 01:20:30,439 --> 01:20:32,600 And I feel like I'm working with more and more parents who are like 1080 01:20:32,680 --> 01:20:35,600 I don't have times there isn't any time I don't know what to do, 1081 01:20:36,319 --> 01:20:41,880 and really trying to help them look at this as this isn't something that I'm 1082 01:20:41,920 --> 01:20:45,880 asking you to do every single day for an hour. All we need is 1083 01:20:45,119 --> 01:20:48,880 you need to have a little bit of time for yourself, to take a 1084 01:20:48,960 --> 01:20:54,479 couple of deep breaths, to have somebody come over and spend some time with 1085 01:20:54,600 --> 01:20:58,119 the kids so that you and your partner can go for a walk together. 1086 01:20:58,439 --> 01:21:00,520 Doesn't have to be a date night, doesn't have to be a huge thing. 1087 01:21:00,800 --> 01:21:03,920 It could be something where you put a movie on. And how important 1088 01:21:03,920 --> 01:21:09,000 it is a to model that it's important to take time for yourself for your 1089 01:21:09,079 --> 01:21:13,399 kid, so your kid, your child better understands that and has awareness of 1090 01:21:13,479 --> 01:21:17,319 it's okay if you need to be alone. Modeling being able to express when 1091 01:21:17,560 --> 01:21:21,039 we need a break or when we need time to do something. Because that's 1092 01:21:21,319 --> 01:21:25,960 what's really cool about all these different things is that you're automatically will be modeling 1093 01:21:26,039 --> 01:21:30,640 these things for your children. And that's really important because we don't We need 1094 01:21:30,720 --> 01:21:32,880 them to know that we're all human and that there are things that all of 1095 01:21:33,000 --> 01:21:38,680 us need and that usually we can do something to try and figure out a 1096 01:21:38,760 --> 01:21:42,039 way to do something, even if it's only for five or ten minutes, 1097 01:21:42,600 --> 01:21:46,880 even if it's only like using your favorite smell when you take a shower in 1098 01:21:46,920 --> 01:21:50,600 the morning before you go to work, Like there's so many different ways and 1099 01:21:50,640 --> 01:21:54,760 I feel like we really get trapped in the options of what does self care 1100 01:21:54,880 --> 01:21:58,479 look like? And it has to look like this spa weekend, or it 1101 01:21:58,600 --> 01:22:01,439 has to involve money, and it's not always the case. But how important 1102 01:22:01,479 --> 01:22:04,840 it is to take some time for yourself, to have the awareness to take 1103 01:22:04,920 --> 01:22:09,560 time for yourself when you're feeling when your number on the scale is high. 1104 01:22:09,920 --> 01:22:15,199 That's really important not only for you, but also so that your kid can 1105 01:22:15,359 --> 01:22:18,640 see, Oh, mom's feeling stressed. She said she's gonna go lay down 1106 01:22:18,720 --> 01:22:23,479 for twenty minutes so that she can feel rested. And that's okay. That 1107 01:22:23,680 --> 01:22:26,520 doesn't mean that they're not there for you or whatever, just means that they 1108 01:22:26,600 --> 01:22:30,119 need that time, because everybody needs that time. So I feel like normalizing 1109 01:22:30,279 --> 01:22:33,359 that will also be helpful so that your kids will also get that idea as 1110 01:22:33,399 --> 01:22:38,920 well. I feel like I talked for a super long time. Well I'll 1111 01:22:39,000 --> 01:22:43,319 jump next because I'm just gonna grow from what you've already said. One thing 1112 01:22:43,359 --> 01:22:45,479 I want to add to what you said the beginning is I think it's good 1113 01:22:45,600 --> 01:22:49,119 for parents to tell their kids that an adult will never need your help. 1114 01:22:49,479 --> 01:22:53,359 An adult doesn't need you to carry this for them to help them look for 1115 01:22:53,479 --> 01:22:57,039 this. You know it'll find my puppy whatever. Like an adult does not 1116 01:22:57,239 --> 01:23:00,359 need you to help them do something. Way that adult doesn't need to keep 1117 01:23:00,399 --> 01:23:04,640 secrets with kids, that's not real and so to instill that. And then 1118 01:23:04,720 --> 01:23:09,640 also an easy way to practice consent early and often with your kids is with 1119 01:23:09,840 --> 01:23:13,439 family and the whole Like give your grandma kiss, give them a hug. 1120 01:23:13,800 --> 01:23:16,880 That can be a really early way to instill that you are you have radical 1121 01:23:16,960 --> 01:23:21,239 autonomy over your body, even with your loved ones. And that does require 1122 01:23:21,319 --> 01:23:27,880 some coaching on the of your other family members because that is a radical change 1123 01:23:28,239 --> 01:23:33,920 from past generations and it can be seen as very disrespectful and it can just 1124 01:23:34,000 --> 01:23:38,520 cause a lot of bruhaha within a family system, especial with older generations to 1125 01:23:39,920 --> 01:23:44,119 have that requirement, and it's possible to do and older generation of respects your 1126 01:23:44,159 --> 01:23:47,399 parenting will get on board with that if you require it. But is a 1127 01:23:47,640 --> 01:23:54,239 that is a safer way to practically practice that consent kind of jumping more on 1128 01:23:54,319 --> 01:23:59,319 what you were saying to Hannah, kind of thinking about the family dynamic core 1129 01:23:59,399 --> 01:24:01,840 line feels a kid that let's say she did go to therapy and did see 1130 01:24:01,880 --> 01:24:05,439 me I feel like the more I would talk to her, I feel like 1131 01:24:05,520 --> 01:24:09,359 she'd bitch about her parents a lot, which would make me feel like I 1132 01:24:09,479 --> 01:24:12,279 need to get them in the room. And so I think, for better 1133 01:24:12,359 --> 01:24:15,119 or for worse, I would end up working with their parents. Her parents 1134 01:24:15,199 --> 01:24:19,239 in some regard, and I think because of the dynamic is already a little 1135 01:24:19,359 --> 01:24:24,399 hairy with how much they argue and stuff, or just the way they talk 1136 01:24:24,439 --> 01:24:26,960 to each other, that I would probably want to talk to her parents without 1137 01:24:27,119 --> 01:24:30,079 Coraline present, because I want to be mindful that when I'm giving her parents 1138 01:24:30,199 --> 01:24:35,159 coaching around how to do things differently, that I'm also not disempowering them in 1139 01:24:35,279 --> 01:24:40,039 front of Coraline, because she's also she's like a smart kid with an attitude, 1140 01:24:40,239 --> 01:24:42,880 So I also don't want to give her ammunition to be like, well, 1141 01:24:42,960 --> 01:24:45,680 my therapist said that you're not allowed to talk like me like that anymore. 1142 01:24:45,960 --> 01:24:48,960 So da da da da dah. So you want to be careful as 1143 01:24:49,039 --> 01:24:55,840 a as a child therapist and a family therapist to not disempower the parents in 1144 01:24:56,119 --> 01:24:58,760 front of their children by saying, well, you can't talk like that, 1145 01:24:58,920 --> 01:25:00,520 or something you know along those lines. And so I'd probably want to meet 1146 01:25:00,560 --> 01:25:03,960 with her parents, went on like just the two of them without core line, 1147 01:25:05,119 --> 01:25:09,600 and talk about the things I kind of spoke about earlier in the episode 1148 01:25:09,960 --> 01:25:12,840 how are we modeling? Because my assumption would be is that her mom would 1149 01:25:12,880 --> 01:25:15,600 complain about how she talks and that she doesn't mind them or whatever. When 1150 01:25:15,640 --> 01:25:18,439 parents would come into family session and their number one goal would be I want 1151 01:25:18,520 --> 01:25:24,279 my kids to listen to me, and I would say, well, that's 1152 01:25:24,319 --> 01:25:27,760 not my job to make your kids compliance, So it would be more like, 1153 01:25:27,960 --> 01:25:30,680 well, let's talk about how are we all communicating at home. I'd 1154 01:25:30,680 --> 01:25:35,159 probably talk to the parents about how are they modeling communication the core line if 1155 01:25:35,239 --> 01:25:41,319 they are having opportunities to have positive experiences with her as well, because I 1156 01:25:41,399 --> 01:25:45,399 think things can go downhill when there's a lot of negativity at home and a 1157 01:25:45,479 --> 01:25:51,079 lot of antagonism is then very quickly everything all every interaction is when you are 1158 01:25:51,359 --> 01:25:58,319 disciplining or scolding or something negative like that, and then your kids starts to 1159 01:25:58,399 --> 01:26:00,279 realize, which you're already kind of seeing in this movie. But the only 1160 01:26:00,319 --> 01:26:02,960 way I can get attention from mom and dad is if I act out, 1161 01:26:03,399 --> 01:26:08,159 and negative attention is better than no attention, and so you get caught in 1162 01:26:08,239 --> 01:26:13,520 this cycle where your kid's always acting obnoxious or whatever, and then all your 1163 01:26:13,520 --> 01:26:16,840 interactions are negative. And so I do encourage parents to, regardless of your 1164 01:26:16,920 --> 01:26:24,520 kid's behavior that week, still carve out times to have positive interaction. And 1165 01:26:24,600 --> 01:26:27,000 it doesn't have to be splashy, like don't take your kid out for like 1166 01:26:27,039 --> 01:26:30,960 a fantastic weekend after they've been acting like an absolute ass all week. Can 1167 01:26:30,279 --> 01:26:33,680 still have like let's watch a movie together, let's read a book together at 1168 01:26:33,800 --> 01:26:41,039 night, Let's have a positive conversation at dinner, establishing basically conditional regard that 1169 01:26:41,239 --> 01:26:45,560 are unconditional regard that no matter how you behave I still want to be with 1170 01:26:45,680 --> 01:26:47,159 you, I still want to spend time with you, I still love you. 1171 01:26:47,960 --> 01:26:53,640 And then your kid will be more motivated to get that positive attention from 1172 01:26:53,680 --> 01:26:57,119 you, and so they will rely less on the behaviors that get them negative 1173 01:26:57,119 --> 01:27:00,359 attention. And you just have to be very mindful about flipping that script. 1174 01:27:00,399 --> 01:27:02,199 When I work with parents where it's really got to a bad place and the 1175 01:27:02,279 --> 01:27:06,520 kid is always in trouble. Sometimes where I'll tell parents to start and I'm 1176 01:27:06,560 --> 01:27:10,800 like, it's going to feel so stupid, is when they go to time 1177 01:27:10,840 --> 01:27:14,039 out, go see them in five minutes. If they're still in time out 1178 01:27:14,119 --> 01:27:16,359 in five minutes, say wow, you're doing such a great job being in 1179 01:27:16,439 --> 01:27:19,760 time out. I really appreciate you staying in time out and sort of like 1180 01:27:20,119 --> 01:27:26,680 praise them for these small ways that feel silly, Or if you're coming from 1181 01:27:26,720 --> 01:27:31,920 an older school, attitude around parenting feel dumb and like it's undercutting the parenting. 1182 01:27:32,319 --> 01:27:35,000 But you have to decide as a parent, is the goal of your 1183 01:27:35,000 --> 01:27:40,960 relationship domination that your kid feels dominated by you and then is compliant to you 1184 01:27:41,039 --> 01:27:45,359 and submissive to you, Or do you want to have a good relationship with 1185 01:27:45,439 --> 01:27:48,319 your kid that's built on love and affection and genuinely wanting to be with each 1186 01:27:48,359 --> 01:27:51,239 other. And so if you just want your kid to mind you, you 1187 01:27:51,279 --> 01:27:55,760 can just keep stepping on their neck. But if you want them to actually 1188 01:27:55,840 --> 01:27:59,279 have a positive relationship with you and there for other people, including teachers, 1189 01:27:59,720 --> 01:28:06,199 partner's friends, you have to instill this one to one connection that positive behavior 1190 01:28:06,319 --> 01:28:11,920 equals positive attention equals affection, love, all that stuff. But you also 1191 01:28:12,000 --> 01:28:15,720 want to have opportunities where it's not connected to their behavior, like you're only 1192 01:28:15,800 --> 01:28:17,720 good if you mind me, or I only love you if you mind me 1193 01:28:17,880 --> 01:28:20,680 that, like I love you no matter what, and we might do extra 1194 01:28:20,760 --> 01:28:25,479 fun stuff if you are on your best behavior. So that's just my two 1195 01:28:25,560 --> 01:28:29,479 cents and I'll throw it to you, ben sure. So when I watched 1196 01:28:29,560 --> 01:28:32,119 this movie, I found myself coming at it from a different of a different 1197 01:28:32,159 --> 01:28:36,279 angle than Hannah and Brittany. And it is probably because I work with different 1198 01:28:36,279 --> 01:28:41,359 populations than they do largely now. And for me, working with a lot 1199 01:28:41,399 --> 01:28:48,039 of people who see a lot of very abnormal and horrible things with regularity, 1200 01:28:48,760 --> 01:28:56,399 is that I suspect for Coraline to have parents that did not remember all of 1201 01:28:56,640 --> 01:29:02,960 that absolutely bizarre traumatic experience that she went through, that is going to be 1202 01:29:03,199 --> 01:29:09,760 life defining for her, is going to be tremendously difficult for her to get 1203 01:29:09,920 --> 01:29:15,800 space to process that without being gasolt with anybody but Hybe, and even he 1204 01:29:15,920 --> 01:29:19,479 didn't see it because it was his doppelganger that was existed in the other world. 1205 01:29:19,520 --> 01:29:24,680 And I think the only person who's still present who observed any of what 1206 01:29:24,800 --> 01:29:29,479 actually happened was the cat, and that cat can only offer so much social 1207 01:29:29,560 --> 01:29:32,920 support to a human being. For a little girl to have gone through something 1208 01:29:33,000 --> 01:29:40,079 so massive, and to have saved everyone's life from this horrible monster and have 1209 01:29:40,399 --> 01:29:44,720 nowhere to talk about it where she's going to be believed is going to be 1210 01:29:45,359 --> 01:29:51,439 incredibly difficult. And I see parallels between that experience and the experience of any 1211 01:29:51,560 --> 01:29:58,640 first responder or military person who maybe a little bit differently not necessarily won't be 1212 01:29:58,680 --> 01:30:01,560 believed, but doesn't feel like they have a space where they can talk about 1213 01:30:02,000 --> 01:30:09,439 what's happened to them that anybody will have any degree of common understanding with. 1214 01:30:09,840 --> 01:30:15,560 And it's why first responders and military do better in group settings with other people 1215 01:30:15,600 --> 01:30:19,399 who have those experiences with them because the degree of stuff that they see, 1216 01:30:19,960 --> 01:30:25,479 they don't have to explain the feelings that you get when you go through something 1217 01:30:25,560 --> 01:30:29,159 that intense because they know everybody in the room has also been through that. 1218 01:30:29,399 --> 01:30:32,840 And for something like this, where you almost get destroyed by an interdimensional monster, 1219 01:30:33,319 --> 01:30:36,800 I think that qualifies it. Probably one ups all of those things. 1220 01:30:36,880 --> 01:30:42,039 But as far as you can't really compare one person's experience to another accounts and 1221 01:30:42,520 --> 01:30:47,159 I think for me, I would want to deploy a very relational based approach. 1222 01:30:47,319 --> 01:30:50,119 Especially when working with a kid, you need to understand what's going on 1223 01:30:50,199 --> 01:30:55,359 with the family, and it would be probably all of one session and maybe 1224 01:30:55,399 --> 01:30:59,680 eight minutes in before you realize that she has a distant relationship with her parents 1225 01:30:59,680 --> 01:31:01,439 where not getting the support that she needs. And I'd want to offer a 1226 01:31:01,600 --> 01:31:09,399 really strong relational approach and spend a lot of time relationship building, listening actively 1227 01:31:09,479 --> 01:31:15,079 to her, not challenging her experience, and giving her a space to process 1228 01:31:15,520 --> 01:31:18,960 what she's been through non judgmentally, and really take on a lot of the 1229 01:31:19,039 --> 01:31:24,760 person center techniques here, because this is a person who's going to be struggling 1230 01:31:24,840 --> 01:31:30,920 to define meaning and be looking to be seen, and no one is going 1231 01:31:30,960 --> 01:31:32,359 to see her, and in fact, they might start ostracizing her because her 1232 01:31:32,359 --> 01:31:35,920 stories are so crazy, and I think for her to have a place where 1233 01:31:35,960 --> 01:31:40,239 she feels heard and balanced might offset some of that. I hope why he 1234 01:31:40,359 --> 01:31:43,960 remembers I think he does, so then at least she is one person. 1235 01:31:44,439 --> 01:31:48,640 Well, at the very end, he does save her from the hand. 1236 01:31:49,000 --> 01:31:53,920 That's true. That's true. And then he brings his grandma. He already 1237 01:31:54,000 --> 01:31:57,840 is in the story, like he already buys into the narrative. Well, 1238 01:31:57,880 --> 01:32:00,079 and what I was thinking is, I'm really would be really fucking interested in 1239 01:32:00,199 --> 01:32:06,159 hearing the conversation that she's about to have with Wyby's grandmother. Yeah, and 1240 01:32:06,359 --> 01:32:12,680 will that be enough for her too, for her to be believed, because 1241 01:32:12,760 --> 01:32:15,760 my guess would be that the grandmother would totally would believe everything that she says. 1242 01:32:15,920 --> 01:32:18,319 Oh, that's true. I didn't think about her. That is absolutely 1243 01:32:18,800 --> 01:32:23,159 correct, and I totally did not consider that that that could be a healing 1244 01:32:23,239 --> 01:32:27,479 experience. But that is a good as an excellent point. All right, 1245 01:32:27,640 --> 01:32:30,119 So we will take one more break and then we'll wrap up with final thoughts. 1246 01:32:31,039 --> 01:32:33,479 All right, So I'm going to have the newbies go first, the 1247 01:32:33,520 --> 01:32:38,720 people that this is their first time watching it, So Ben or Eric, 1248 01:32:39,119 --> 01:32:42,000 I feel like we've all jabbered a lot, So Eric, maybe we'll start 1249 01:32:42,000 --> 01:32:45,520 with you. Yeah. So, I just you know, I really enjoyed 1250 01:32:45,600 --> 01:32:49,039 the experience. I'm a big horror fan, so I definitely enjoyed some of 1251 01:32:49,119 --> 01:32:53,960 the more creepy moments. My eleven year old was watching it with me, 1252 01:32:54,079 --> 01:32:56,920 and he was very engrossed, and so I thought that it was sort of 1253 01:32:56,960 --> 01:33:00,159 a perfect age of being able to have some of the the creepier moments, 1254 01:33:00,720 --> 01:33:04,359 at least in terms of aesthetics. Right, I don't know if he got 1255 01:33:04,640 --> 01:33:09,359 all of the levels of the creepier things going on, although I'm sure that 1256 01:33:09,439 --> 01:33:15,000 when the ghost kids talked about being eat he got that. But no, 1257 01:33:15,800 --> 01:33:17,640 it was just, yeah, there was a lot to unpack, which I 1258 01:33:17,840 --> 01:33:20,680 enjoyed. I think I kind of said, yeah, most of most of 1259 01:33:20,960 --> 01:33:25,159 the things that resonated with with me early. Just I look forward to watching 1260 01:33:25,199 --> 01:33:28,560 it again. And actually, as you mentioned earlier, Brittany, when you 1261 01:33:28,600 --> 01:33:33,399 wanted to pick the brains the creators, I did google and into the twenty 1262 01:33:33,520 --> 01:33:39,359 twenty one there was a new version of the Blu ray released that does have 1263 01:33:39,640 --> 01:33:44,439 several different commentaries, and uh, there's at least one new one that says 1264 01:33:44,479 --> 01:33:47,840 discovering the characters. So I don't know how much of that is visual and 1265 01:33:47,920 --> 01:33:53,800 how much of that is actual characterization. She can buy it for me later. 1266 01:33:54,199 --> 01:34:00,359 It is like a studio's edition. So, and it's only thirteen ninety 1267 01:34:00,439 --> 01:34:02,239 nine on Amazon right now. Not that we're getting any kickbacks here yet. 1268 01:34:02,319 --> 01:34:05,680 Go guys, all right, well, I'm so excited that you'll watch it 1269 01:34:05,800 --> 01:34:11,800 again, Okay, Benjamin. So I watched it, and I've been kind 1270 01:34:11,840 --> 01:34:15,880 of like skeptical to watch this because, as said in the Nightmare four Christmas 1271 01:34:15,960 --> 01:34:18,359 that I don't know. Yeah, I don't love Night Before Nightmare Before Christmas. 1272 01:34:18,720 --> 01:34:21,880 I just I don't. I people get really into it and have loved 1273 01:34:21,920 --> 01:34:26,920 it for years, and it just never did grab me. The thing that 1274 01:34:26,960 --> 01:34:30,680 I really enjoyed about this movie is like the art, the animation, all 1275 01:34:30,720 --> 01:34:34,199 of it is just incredible. What they achieved with this film is incredible. 1276 01:34:34,199 --> 01:34:40,520 With the story itself was engaging. These kinds of stories are hit or miss 1277 01:34:40,600 --> 01:34:44,640 with me and the acclaimation ones don't always grab me outside of Rudolph because I 1278 01:34:44,720 --> 01:34:47,039 watched it forty thousand times as a kid. But this one did. This 1279 01:34:47,159 --> 01:34:50,880 one really did grab me. I really felt pulled into the story pretty quick, 1280 01:34:51,000 --> 01:34:54,880 and I thought that it was just an incredibly well done story and it 1281 01:34:55,000 --> 01:34:58,359 is the one that I will probably watch again And was thinking about how important 1282 01:34:58,359 --> 01:35:00,840 it will be for my daughter to see this, to see a strong, 1283 01:35:01,760 --> 01:35:09,119 independent girl who can solve the problems of the world by trusting herself. At 1284 01:35:09,159 --> 01:35:14,600 the end of the day, Coraline trusts herself and that she keeps her own 1285 01:35:14,680 --> 01:35:18,479 counsel, knowing that I as I am am enough and I hope that I 1286 01:35:18,600 --> 01:35:24,359 am able to help shape my daughter into a person who can believe that about 1287 01:35:24,439 --> 01:35:30,239 herself at all times and recognize that the power to solve any problem lives within 1288 01:35:30,359 --> 01:35:33,239 you, and that you believe in yourself regardless of what monsters try to trick 1289 01:35:33,319 --> 01:35:38,000 you off your path of success in life. And I think this movie is 1290 01:35:38,000 --> 01:35:40,720 a great way to help teach it. Hey, all right, Hannah, 1291 01:35:40,720 --> 01:35:42,640 do you when I go? Yeah, I'll go, so you can go 1292 01:35:42,800 --> 01:35:47,239 last. I really enjoyed this movie. I actually this is probably only maybe 1293 01:35:47,319 --> 01:35:49,479 the third time I've watched it. I watched it for the first time with 1294 01:35:49,560 --> 01:35:57,720 Brittany during the pandemic maybe yeah. And I really it's a beautiful film. 1295 01:35:58,439 --> 01:36:01,920 I really enjoy I enjoy all the differences and the animation too. I don't 1296 01:36:01,960 --> 01:36:09,760 know if you all realized or recognize that her hair is very stiff and doesn't 1297 01:36:09,840 --> 01:36:13,680 move, and by the end of the movie it's loose again, and it 1298 01:36:13,760 --> 01:36:17,159 kind of the strands are individual. So I feel like that reminds me of 1299 01:36:17,279 --> 01:36:21,800 when we did Bearded Away when you can see remember how I talked about how 1300 01:36:21,800 --> 01:36:25,359 it's so cool and they have those lines above their hair or like their hair 1301 01:36:25,840 --> 01:36:29,319 is a part of their emotional response. I think that's why I noticed it, 1302 01:36:29,640 --> 01:36:31,520 but it was really interesting to see. To me, it made me. 1303 01:36:31,680 --> 01:36:35,199 It made me think of like her being like feeling calmer and like having 1304 01:36:35,279 --> 01:36:39,680 her family, her parents back, maybe a little bit more to like their 1305 01:36:39,720 --> 01:36:42,479 regular place, even though it's not great. But yeah, but I thought, 1306 01:36:42,560 --> 01:36:46,439 I think it's a beautiful movie. I'm really excited to encourage my many 1307 01:36:46,600 --> 01:36:51,079 nieces and nephews who are tweens and teenagers at this time to watch this film. 1308 01:36:51,560 --> 01:36:55,079 So I loved it. I'm really glad that we get to talk about 1309 01:36:55,159 --> 01:36:59,479 it, and I will definitely watch this movie again. Well definitely definitely. 1310 01:37:00,000 --> 01:37:03,359 Anna has never said definitely. So yeah, I like that you let me 1311 01:37:03,399 --> 01:37:06,039 go last, because you all know that this is one of my favorite movies. 1312 01:37:06,319 --> 01:37:09,880 I was already like in my early twenties, I think when it came 1313 01:37:09,920 --> 01:37:13,000 out initially. But if I had been younger when this came out, the 1314 01:37:13,079 --> 01:37:15,800 way this movie would have became my whole personality for a while would have been 1315 01:37:15,840 --> 01:37:19,079 intense. If I had been like twelve or nine, like between nine and 1316 01:37:19,159 --> 01:37:24,800 twelve when it came out, I like it more. I already do. 1317 01:37:25,279 --> 01:37:28,560 I have a funkle pop of her. I've dressed up like her, at 1318 01:37:28,640 --> 01:37:31,520 one of the comic cons that we did a panel at, mostly because we 1319 01:37:31,640 --> 01:37:35,000 have the same length hair, so that made it easy. No wig necessary, 1320 01:37:35,119 --> 01:37:40,520 just blew it up my hair. And I love the aesthetic of it. 1321 01:37:40,760 --> 01:37:45,319 I'm very into like spooky stuff and like dark academia and like all that 1322 01:37:45,439 --> 01:37:47,439 kind of aesthetic. In this movie I like more than I'm before Christmas. 1323 01:37:47,439 --> 01:37:50,319 And I think because esthetically, I like it a lot more, and also 1324 01:37:50,399 --> 01:37:54,760 I like the story a lot more. I was shocked by how scary it 1325 01:37:54,920 --> 01:37:58,039 was when I first saw it, because I thought it would be pretty mild. 1326 01:37:58,319 --> 01:38:00,560 And I know when we were recording our last episode, Ben, you 1327 01:38:00,640 --> 01:38:03,000 asked if your four year old daughter co watches with you and Hannah and I 1328 01:38:03,079 --> 01:38:08,319 were like, absolutely not, because it does have genuinely scary elements. It 1329 01:38:08,520 --> 01:38:12,039 builds to something very scary, whereas on the onset you're like, maybe a 1330 01:38:12,119 --> 01:38:15,159 kid could watch this, but a younger kid. But I think it's further 1331 01:38:15,239 --> 01:38:18,279 and further it is like genuinely scary, and I think that really impressed me 1332 01:38:18,399 --> 01:38:23,319 when I first saw it. Also, I can't get over the full blown 1333 01:38:23,399 --> 01:38:29,920 boobs in this movie for children. When the older circus performer women Spink enforceable 1334 01:38:30,479 --> 01:38:34,520 are dancing and she's full boobs out pasties on. So and what I think 1335 01:38:34,640 --> 01:38:39,960 is really interesting and I was paying very close attention to is they don't move 1336 01:38:40,479 --> 01:38:45,880 though the way that boobs actually move, like when she's jumping and doing stuff, 1337 01:38:45,880 --> 01:38:48,439 Like they're not like moving up and down, like there's not a lot 1338 01:38:48,479 --> 01:38:51,520 of it's kind of like they're in like she's in like at I guess, 1339 01:38:51,920 --> 01:38:56,079 yeah, Like they're very stationary. So I wonder I was curious if that 1340 01:38:56,199 --> 01:38:58,720 was maybe a part of they were like why I have the bare boobs but 1341 01:38:58,840 --> 01:39:06,760 they cannot jiggle? They can't. Yeah, I was just impressed that they 1342 01:39:08,520 --> 01:39:15,119 that period would be if it would be well but yeah, But anyway, 1343 01:39:15,279 --> 01:39:18,880 I love this movie. I love the storyline. I wish people would stop 1344 01:39:19,000 --> 01:39:23,800 thinking this and number for a Christmas for Tim Burton features. It's actually Henry 1345 01:39:23,840 --> 01:39:27,920 Sellick and he's actually making a new movie coming out called I Think Wendell and 1346 01:39:28,520 --> 01:39:31,119 something along the lines with Jordan Peel, and it's people are kind of already 1347 01:39:31,159 --> 01:39:34,880 talking about all it's kind of like not so subtle. F you to Tim 1348 01:39:34,960 --> 01:39:39,359 Burton, who has basically said that people of color don't fit the aesthetic of 1349 01:39:39,439 --> 01:39:42,640 his movies, which so I'm really excited to see that movie. It's called 1350 01:39:42,680 --> 01:39:45,239 Wendell and Something. But anyway, I love this movie. I'll watch it. 1351 01:39:45,359 --> 01:39:48,840 It's a comfort movie that I watch like if I'm feeling sick or if 1352 01:39:48,880 --> 01:39:53,760 I'm having a like a Sunday afternoon laying on the couch moment. And now 1353 01:39:53,800 --> 01:39:56,600 that we're getting into spooky season, it's of course one of my favorites. 1354 01:39:56,600 --> 01:39:59,520 So I'm glad I had a reason to watch it so soon. But yeah, 1355 01:40:00,079 --> 01:40:01,840 I would love anyone who listens who doesn't want you to check it out, 1356 01:40:01,960 --> 01:40:04,239 because, as you can tell from the panel of us here, we 1357 01:40:04,359 --> 01:40:09,439 all liked So with that being said, thank you again Eric for joining us. 1358 01:40:10,159 --> 01:40:13,680 We will have any information that he's willing to give in the description of 1359 01:40:13,720 --> 01:40:16,479 this episode, and then, like always, you can find us on Facebook, 1360 01:40:16,600 --> 01:40:23,159 Instagram, and TikTok at Popprint Psychology on Twitter at popcorn Underscore psych You 1361 01:40:23,199 --> 01:40:26,920 can always email us at pop Print Psychology at gmail dot com. They have 1362 01:40:27,000 --> 01:40:30,399 a Patreon Andati public site if you want to get merch or just support us. 1363 01:40:30,840 --> 01:40:34,239 If you are a fifty dollars or more patron, you can actually pick 1364 01:40:34,399 --> 01:40:38,760 the movie that we discuss in an episode, and if you even donate only 1365 01:40:38,840 --> 01:40:44,279 a dollar, you can sometimes listen to our unedited episodes before they premiere formally 1366 01:40:44,479 --> 01:40:46,880 on all the podcast platforms. And as always, if you can, please 1367 01:40:46,960 --> 01:40:54,119 please please leave us rating and review on Apple iTunes or Apple Podcasts or wherever 1368 01:40:54,159 --> 01:40:58,640 you listen to podcasts. It is the most efficient way to market for us, 1369 01:40:58,760 --> 01:41:01,159 for other people who have never found us to find us on their own, 1370 01:41:01,319 --> 01:41:04,119 So thank you again and happy spooky season, y'all.