American Hostage is an Amazon Original and Criminal Content production. This podcast is based
on a true story of a hostage crisis that took place in Indianapolis in nineteen
seventy seven. Listener Discretion is advised Episode five the interview. Hey, Fred,
look at me. It's almost time, so I need to listen up.
There are a few more things you need to know. What Hey you
okay? Sure you're good? Yeah, yeah, Roy, I'm fine.
I'm sorry. I was just thinking. No, that's okay. Look,
I need you to listen. Okay, sure, sure. What you were
doing earlier was great. All right, keep humanizing you humanized Dick. Everything
feel tangible. It was great. Okay. Yeah, but if you get
a chance, I want you to set up a trade. The trade.
Yeah, you're gonna tell him that will give him something if he gives us
something. Well, he's not gonna give Dick up that easily. No,
no, no, we don't start with Dick. We don't start with Dick.
Okay, We're going to take his plan apart, piece by piece.
We offer him something small for something small in return, like tell him that
we'll get him a cheeseburger if he disconnects the bomb, right, or tell
him he can have a pizza. If he dismantles the dead man's line and
gives us the shotgun, right, you start small, We chip away at
him. Okay, I can do that. Now I need to talk to
you about what happens if he does shoot Dick. Oh well, well we
kill the broadcast and drop the No. No, no, no, no,
you can't do that. You can't hold on, hold on there.
What do you mean we can't do that. We're not keeping him on the
air. If he shoots Dick, Jim, you can cut the broadcast,
but you can't cut off the phone. Christ. Statistically, if a person
dies in a hostage situation, the likelihood of more violent shoots up I nearly
seventy five. If Tony kills Dick and we can't get him to disconnect the
bomb, he might sit off the whole building and you're gonna lose the cops
that are outside. All right, all right, so it's imperative you keep
him on the phone and you calm him down. Shit, you just had
to call him back, didn't you. Okay, all right, now,
just don't stress him out. No, look, I'm fine, I'm fine.
Good, Look, I'm gonna be listening in all right, I'll be
right there. Once he picks that phone up and the interview he starts going,
here is one and only Tether introducing a third party. He's only going
to remind him that he's being watched from every angle, and we need him
to forget about that. We need him think that you have all the answers?
Can you do that? Fred? Yeah, I can do it.
Okay, what time is it? I'm gonna stand till Okay, Roy,
how many people have you talked down? You're gonna do great? Fred.
I'm gonna go grab a cup of coffee. I'll be right back. What
do you bet this is Roy's first day of work? Huh? You uh?
What are you doing after this? Oh? Yeah? I uh?
You know I got a question about if door vacation days roll over year to
year. You know I heard yours? Do It's good? You got any
recommendations? Sure? Women love France? Hmmm, So who would get my
slot while I'm going Gary? Of course? People love Gary? Fred.
I gotta give the people what they want. You know, Tony thinks for
friends, you're gonna send him after me? Well, maybe considerate. Okay,
let's get scone all right. I'm gonna leave you guys to it.
I'll be listening in my office. All right, Good luck, Fred,
Thank you, Jim. You're ready? Fred? Okay, Hey, shut
up my phone. That's my interview. Hey, Tony, Tony, we've
got a little more we have to talk about. So if it's later,
I gotta talk to Fred. Hello, Fred, Sup? Fred you there.
I'm here, Tony. Fred. She will never believe it. They
said, yes, they're gonna get me five million dollars. Fred. I
can't believe it. I deserve every penny, but I can't believe it.
Well, Tony, I'm happy that it's all working out for you. Yeah,
they got to bring me the check. Still, that I know just
as good as anybody. Nothing's good until the check's in your hand. You've
ever seen five million dollars? Friend? No, no, no, Tony,
I can't say I have. What do you make being a celebrity at
all? Oh? Well, I'm I'm not a I'm not a celebrity,
Tony. I'm just a I'm just a news bullshit. You're the most important
man on radio. What do you make a year? And I don't don't
don't be modest well about about eighteen thousand, eighteen thousand a year. That's
not gonna do. Fred. I'm going to give you some of this five
million dollars pal because I respect you, man, and I know I've been
wrenching your wheel. Thank you. Tony. How is how is Dick?
Dick? How are you doing? Okay? Fred? He's doing okay?
Fred? Well that's good, that's that's that's good. Uh. Uh so,
Tony, since uh, you know, since you got that deal worked
out, maybe uh maybe you can uh maybe you can can trade us something.
What does that mean? Fred? You know, since you're you're getting
you're five million? Do do you do you think you could take the gun
off, Dick? Maybe toss it out the window or something. What are
you talking about um as a show of uh good faith? No, they
never said anything about that. I never agreed to anything like that. Well
no, no, no, I know, it's just a it's just an
idea, you know from me. Uh or if if you want a cheeseburger,
uh we can, we can, we can get you a cheeseburger and
you can give us the gun. I don't know what the fuck you're talking
about. Man. Uh well, well, well that's all right, Tony,
that's okay. Um, Look, it's um it's almost noon. So
what's what's going to happen is you'll you'll hear the jingle and then I'll do
the intro for our talk. Okay, Fred, are you all right?
Man? Look yeah, I'm a I'm a little nervous, Tony. I
get nervous before every broadcast. So I'm also going to give our listeners a
little warning about potential language. Tony, do you do you think you can
watch yourself? Sure? Kid? All right? Then, all right,
here we go. Good afternoon. I'm Fred Heckman with w IBC. Yesterday
afternoon, I received a call from an operator at the Indiana Bell Telephone Company.
She said mister Tony Curtsis had been trying to get into the newsroom,
and he went, oh hello Tony. Oh you're just fine, Tony,
but you you go ahead and finish. I want you to do it right
for you, okay, as well as you can already tell. We are
currently on the line with mister Curtzis and he has a lot he wants to
say. We'd like to take this opportunity to warn our listeners about any potentially
offensive language, as Tony will be the first to admit he can sometimes speak
in an uncouth manner. So, Tony, if I'm going to be on,
I'm I'm sorry, mister Ayman. I thought you were finished. Oh
boy, that's okay, Tony, Why don't you Why don't you tell us
where you're calling from? I'm currently sitting in my apartment in Crestwood Village.
It's easy to find because every fucking police cruiser in the city is currently parked
outside. Oh yes, and Tony went in and fucked it up, didn't
I Tony jim gentile reminder. We are out to three hundred and thirty thousand
people here. Yeah, I am seeing the mistake of that man every time
the guy swears that cost us ten thousand dollars. So what are we going
to do? I'm not hearing any So why you've taken Richard Hall hostage?
And if you have any intention of releasing mister Hall back to his family,
Fred, let me ask you something. Do you take pride in your work?
Yes? I do, Tony. Would you do anything else for a
job? No? I can't say. I what Tony? Now, you've
got a family, Fred, I know that because we've talked about it.
I know you have kids and a wife, and I know you love them
very much. Yes, yes, sir, And if you didn't have them,
you pour yourself into your work every single day. Am I right?
Well, I'd say you're right, because for some men, work is all
we have. For some men, we don't feel American without work. We
don't have an identity without work. Now let me ask you something else,
Fred, Do you come from money? No, sir, I do not.
I can't form you, goddamn scraps. Fred. I came crawling at
it a dirt and maybe any bloody and bruised, and I started based father
race here. I stayed that wave until the day he died. I broke
the bones for my work a super twelve times a week, and I've jumped
from job to job to job and having had anything in my fight. Tony
Kurtzis had been screaming into the void for years before the world noticed him,
before I heard him. And that doesn't mean I should have let you speak.
When I was coming up, the news came once a day, maybe
twice. We'd either buy it on the corner or it would land on our
doorstep. Then it came over the radio waves and now on television, propaganda
in your living room, wedged between commercials for toilet paper and painkillers. Nowadays,
something needs to happen every hour, every minute where they tune out.
America is fast becoming a country of prepackaged content, the TV dinner generation.
I was going to build my life with that one hundred and thirty grand,
and they took it away like it was nothing. Okay, Tony, Now
we want to get the story straight. So you were wanting to deve up
some land. I've been an angry man for forty four years. Nobody has
had the adversity that I've had. But in spite of that, and without
arrogance, and without putting friends down, and without being egotistical, I am
the strongest man mentally that I know. The average guy who would have gone
through this would have already had a heart attack into our stroke. These guys
are lucky they're doing with me, because some nervous Norman would have already shot
him. I think everybody can appreciate that you've been steady through all of this,
Tony, You're goddamn right now. I want you to ask me why
I did this. Ask me what possesses a man to tie a shotgun around
viccalls Nick and walk him through his own shit in front of the entire world.
Ask me, what would possess a man to do such a thing,
Tony, righteousness, vengeance, because I was fed a myth at the moment
of my birth, a myth that said, the American dream is yours if
you can fight for it. Well, I've fought for every goddamn second of
my life and I had it. I had to dream in my hands,
and the system took it away, the system that says you can't be one
of us. You were born to suffer, and that's how you'll die.
And I'm not taking it anymore. I want to have a calm and rational
discussion with you about all of that. No, you're interrupt don't interrupt me.
Friends, Now, I like you and you're my best friend, but
don't you interrupt me. This country was milt by poor men. We thought
it's wars we put up in cities and each my fucking inch. We fought
against the oppression of the ira class. And every time we get a fucking
centimeter of freedom, it came by way of dragging these rich assles. Kicking
his streaming across the line of congress. Now tell me I'm wrong. Friend,
You tell me I'm wrong. I can't. I grew up hard,
just like you did. And I know the value of a hard day's work.
And I know you're angry, But I've just never known an anger so
great that it could cost someone else's life. That's because you never had to
take it away from you, Fred, If you had you taken away from
you, you would know, You would know this anger. Now we should
have a little dignity in our conversation here. We should leave my wife out
of it. You're right, I'm sorry about that, Fred, and I
hope you're globally. Wife is listening, so I can apologize to her too.
Thank you, Tony. Now, how can we get this all settled?
It is settled. I'm walking out of this a freeman at five million
dollars richer. They're giving me immunity and they're giving me five million dollars.
And don't call it a reward, because it isn't a reward. It's a
justice. It's a goddamn justice, and that's the only word for it.
So you'll let mister Hall go. Once you get the check, once I
get the chick, Once I get the chick, it'll make an apology,
a public apology, and about what he did to me, And then I
could look for mercy in my heart. But it's will hidden. Fred.
I couldn't find it right now if I tried, and I don't want to
try. Fred, do you understand what I'm saying? I do I understand?
Oh no, Fred, do you understand? Because if you understood,
you want him just as much as I do. I hate to mention the
obvious here, but this guy's finger is wrapped around trigger. I can't say
I would do what you're doing. Oh my gosh. I want you to
open up the phone lines right now. I'm sorry. I'm sorry, Tony.
I don't think I understood that last I said. I want you to
open up the phone lines. I'm gonna show you what I'm talking about.
I want people to call in and to tell you that they see what I'm
doing, that they see what I understand. Well, Tony, we're not
set up to take calls at the Swear to god, Fred, you are
hitching to hear that gunshot, aren't you. Aren't you? You want them
dead just as much as I do. You have to to tell me no,
look, I don't want him dead, Tony. That's not the number.
The phone line blesses motherfucker's brains all over the receiver. So are you
hear he's goddamn thoughts, Tony? Do you think I'm gonna ask again if
you would like to call it to the station. Our number is five five
zero six three nine, Tony. We'll need to take a short break here
to get these calls wired up, and then the machine we use needs to
uh, you know, we've got to wake it up. Wake it up
a machine. Yeah, well, it's not it's not easy to get everything
connected down here. We've got old equipment and we didn't know you'd want people
to call in. That's fine, you do what you have to serve.
But if it isn't ready in five minutes, everyone's going to feel like they're
listening to the fourth of July. All right, all right, stay on
the line there, Tony. I'm not going anywhere. We'll be back in
the moment right after this station break close about what I say? Right?
What do we do? We can't have people calling in, Roy, you
tell me what to say to this man, because I'm out of idea.
What the hell was that Fred, we can't take I'm getting sick of everyone
saying what we can't do without telling me what I should do. What am
I supposed to say? He's got a goddamn gun in someone's face. Allow
third parties to call in, and didn't rec himend third parties. The lunatic
with the shotgun recommended the third parties? And what does he mean when he
keeps saying you're giving him five million dollars? I don't know it's not from
us. Well, who's making that deal? Why am I finding out about
it right now? Call Bob far I can't go into these things blind anymore.
I need help. Phones are lighting America wants to talk to the crazy
man? Who could have seen that coming? Why don't we lie? Say
the magic machine friend was talking about doesn't orc? Because Gary Wilcox was reporting
this morning and he took a call on the air from Chief Gallagher. We
know that Tony's been listening to the broadcast, so he'll know we're lyne.
Can we fake the lines being open? How do we do that? When
you go back into the interview. We'll just have people in here in the
newsroom pretend to be callers and they'll talk to him. No, No,
he knows all the reporters voices. He's an active listener of the station.
Okay, we'll use cops. That, we'll use cops. They've had every
cop in the city on rotation at his door for the past thirty hours.
We don't know who he's already docked, and we don't have time to screen
these calls. Right, we could screen in between. Just tell each caller
they can ask one question, and while Tony's answering, we scream the other's
weight. Roy, you've got to tell us what to do. I shouldn't
have gotten to this point. Roy, You've got to tell us what to
do. If you open those phone lines, you're out in the wild West.
I can't account for who calls in, what they'll say, and just
how he'll react. Well, if we don't open the lines, does he
shoot Dick? Yes, then we open the line. Hold on so o.
No, there's no other option. We know he shoots Dick if we
keep him closed. We know one h right age of Peterson. You can't
know anything one hundred percent. Okay, but the odds are better with them
open, they're better. Yes, Yes, okay, fine, um,
okay, look anything we could do to minimize the risk we do. So,
what's your name, Sally Kilmer? Sally, you get two people who
can trust to help screen the calls. You're gonna get five people on the
queue, one after the other, and have them ready to go while we're
talking to one on the broadcast. I want the others drilled. All right.
I want cops talking every person we put on the air before we put
them on the air. Got it? Okay, Fred, we're taking five
calls total. You get them to compromise on five calls, one question each.
I think you could do that. I can try. What do we
have for time? About one minute left? All right, let's move Come
on, all right, Fred, five calls, I got ITIBC. Tony
you still there, I'm still here, mister Hickman. All right, I'm
gonna take us back to broadcast in a second. Tony. We've got time
for five callers and they'll be allowed to ask one question each. Well,
we've got all the time in the world, Fred, Everyone who wants we
should be able to call in. Yeah. Well, it's more of an
expense thing for us, Tony. You see, it's expensive for us to
hold on all these calls. And then broadcast now paid for whatever expenses there
are. I'm getting five million dollars after all, Tony, we've got.
It's just going to be best for us to give you five callers. Now.
I think that's fair, and I hope you'll think on our friendship and
see that that's fair. You sound tired, Fred, I am, Tony.
I'm pretty tired. Five callers will be fine, sir. Thank you,
Tony, Yes, sir? Are you ready to go back into broadcast?
Yes, sir, all right, I'll Dallas in next time on American
Hostage. I told you they would get it to people to get it for
you're on the air. I'd like to take the place of mister Hall.
You want to do what they've got orders to go in asapack. You can't
blow up an entire fucking building, Sally. If you need somebody, you
can take me. Who the hell are you saved the crisis, the closest
thing we've had the progress in two days, and we're gonna have swap looks
at all? You are you talk to me? Tony? Are you there?
American Hostage is an Amazon original and Criminal Content production written by C.
D. Carpenter, directed by Sean Christiansen, produced by Adam Vollerich and Brendan
Hubbard. Executive produced by John Hamm, Sean Christiansen and Gabriel Mason, starring
John Am, Joe Perino, Dylan Baker, and Becky Ann Baker, with
additional performances by Christina Brucado, Sean Christiansen, Michael Dreyer. Sound designed by
Brandon Jones, composed by Darren Morsey, Editing by Thomas Beach, Sean Christiansen
and Adam Voolridge. Recording and engineering by Dave Williams, Mixing, mastering and
additional editing by Nick Messidi. Id reads by Natalie Prass for Amazon Music.
Executive producers are Morgan Jones and Dave Easton. Senior producer is Eliza Mills.
Special thanks to Jacob Braunstein, Phil Sanchez, Chris Davis, Jack Parker,
Marcellino, v Elpondo, Stephanie Walkney, Blad Norman Vanessa Rebert, Sam Petherbridge,
Cale Bittner, Alice Zoe, Trevor McNeil, i, Jacobsen, Rich
Sherman Marshall, Louie w IBC, Wish TV, and Creative Artists Agency,