1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:07,280 You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas. 2 00:00:07,799 --> 00:00:12,080 I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now 3 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:16,039 trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other 4 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:20,280 victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway 5 00:00:20,359 --> 00:00:24,760 murders and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 6 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:29,120 Kristin Dilly. My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a researcher, 7 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:32,840 a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social media 8 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:37,880 manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner in 9 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:45,359 crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind Ever Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly and 10 00:00:45,399 --> 00:00:50,479 I'm Bill Thomas, and we're joined today by legendary podcaster and author em William 11 00:00:50,520 --> 00:00:55,159 Phalps to talk to us about his new podcast series, Paper Ghosts and Crossing 12 00:00:55,200 --> 00:00:58,520 the Line. Matt, thank you so much for joining us today. It's 13 00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:03,079 great to be here finally getting on Bill and Kristen Schow Mine Over Murder. 14 00:01:03,159 --> 00:01:08,000 It's been how long you guys been in this now four years? Four years, 15 00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:12,840 four years, Yeah, paid four paper ghosts. Yeah. Paper ghost 16 00:01:12,879 --> 00:01:15,000 start around the same time. Yeah, so it's great to be on. 17 00:01:15,640 --> 00:01:19,000 I'm embarrassed. I don't know how we went four years with that asking you 18 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:23,280 to be on the show. I'm offended. Actually, let's get off to 19 00:01:23,359 --> 00:01:30,000 a good start. And now we live in the same state. We're both 20 00:01:30,040 --> 00:01:33,280 in Connecticut where I was. Yeah, and calf and look, I've known 21 00:01:33,319 --> 00:01:37,000 you for twelve years now something like that, Yeah, a dozen years. 22 00:01:37,079 --> 00:01:41,159 Yeah, so we may even though we do not video this, I would 23 00:01:41,239 --> 00:01:45,879 like everyone to know that Matt and Bill are dressed exactly the same in wonderful 24 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:49,680 matching plaid shirts, and that was totally a coincidence. We're doing the hardy 25 00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:56,959 New Englander thing today and it's still cold and rainy here in Connecticut. Spring 26 00:01:57,000 --> 00:02:00,799 hasn't sprung yet, that's for sure, and I'm ready for it. Yeah, 27 00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:04,480 me too. All this promises promises. It's not been a horrible winter. 28 00:02:04,599 --> 00:02:07,439 But at the same time, it would be nice if it started acting 29 00:02:07,519 --> 00:02:09,800 like April. How it goes here in New England. All of a sudden 30 00:02:09,840 --> 00:02:14,879 you wake up and it's seventy degrees out and you're on your way I'm looking 31 00:02:14,919 --> 00:02:16,879 forward to it, but I have a lot of cleanup to do in my 32 00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:22,759 art after the winter we had, Yeah, instant summer. It'll be April 33 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:27,199 fifteenth and it'll suddenly be seventy five degrees and the Red Sox are already struggling, 34 00:02:27,319 --> 00:02:30,759 and you're off to the races for another spring in New England. We 35 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:35,719 are already highly pollinated down here in Virginia. So at least you guys are 36 00:02:35,759 --> 00:02:38,280 missing that part of it. We are. They're tearing up the road in 37 00:02:38,319 --> 00:02:44,240 front of my house with incredibly noisy, dusty, dirty equipment the size of 38 00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:47,879 a two story house, but no no polling yet. We asked Matt to 39 00:02:47,879 --> 00:02:52,199 come on to talk to us about his new podcasts, but we also wanted 40 00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:54,960 to start by asking you, Matt, tell us how you originally got involved 41 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:59,280 in true crime. Yeah, take us back twenty five years and walk us 42 00:02:59,319 --> 00:03:04,680 through everything that happened since then. Okay, I'll give you the condensed version 43 00:03:04,759 --> 00:03:08,199 of it. I get asked that question a lot, and it's funny because 44 00:03:08,879 --> 00:03:13,479 it's like the day before I got into true crime, I didn't know I 45 00:03:13,560 --> 00:03:17,000 was getting into true crime. My passion in life is writing. I get 46 00:03:17,039 --> 00:03:21,919 up in the morning to write. That's what I love to do, and 47 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:25,479 that makes my soul complete when I'm able to write. I was a journalist 48 00:03:25,639 --> 00:03:30,560 and had a column about music, and I wrote about politics. I wrote 49 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:34,599 about everything anything I could write about. And then I met an agent and 50 00:03:34,599 --> 00:03:37,199 he's listen, if you want to really make money, you need to come 51 00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:39,039 up with a book subject. You need to write a book. I live 52 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:44,919 close to Springfield, Massachusetts, and there was a trial going on in Springfield 53 00:03:45,199 --> 00:03:49,080 that I just found all these people involved in this trial very interesting. There 54 00:03:49,159 --> 00:03:53,759 was a beautiful young woman, thirty three blonde, who was on trial for 55 00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:59,360 killing seven people and there was whispers that she killed many more. In Northampton, 56 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:03,680 the leads Medical Veterans Affairs Medical Center, and so I just started following 57 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:10,000 this trial and I just thought it was an interesting story about people, victims, 58 00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:14,960 the town, the response to the crime, and this woman. So 59 00:04:15,199 --> 00:04:17,319 I started following it. I sold the book about it. I wrote the 60 00:04:17,319 --> 00:04:20,839 book, and I didn't know really I was writing a true crime book, 61 00:04:20,879 --> 00:04:25,680 but I was. So that book came out and it was very successful. 62 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:30,240 Perfect Poison. The serial killer is Kristin Gilbert. Before that, I had 63 00:04:30,319 --> 00:04:34,639 met this guy, William Acosta, who is a Columbian guy and they call 64 00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:40,399 him the Equalizer because he worked for the CID, he worked for the CIA, 65 00:04:40,639 --> 00:04:44,879 he worked for Customs FBI, and he was a mole. He did 66 00:04:44,920 --> 00:04:47,920 all sorts of investigatory things. And I met him. I was going to 67 00:04:47,959 --> 00:04:51,959 write about him. We became friends, and he taught me how to investigate 68 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:55,920 people. Basically, I spent a couple of years with him and he taught 69 00:04:55,920 --> 00:05:00,480 me my investigative skills. I was getting into the crime then I just didn't 70 00:05:00,519 --> 00:05:03,959 know it. I didn't look at I hope this is not long winded, 71 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:09,480 but we look at things today with labels. We have to label everything, 72 00:05:09,639 --> 00:05:13,680 and for me, I was writing a book about people. I was writing 73 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:17,800 a book about victims of a woman who had murdered them and their families and 74 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:21,800 what they've gone through. So if that's labeled true crime, that's what I 75 00:05:21,879 --> 00:05:26,639 do. And that's what I ended up doing because my publisher wanted more books, 76 00:05:26,639 --> 00:05:30,079 so I wanted to write more books. That's what I did. And 77 00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:33,040 then I just TV came from that and I fell into it all and just 78 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:36,959 ran with it. What year did your first book come out? Perfect Poison? 79 00:05:38,759 --> 00:05:42,279 I think perfect Poison came out in two thousand and two, twenty two 80 00:05:42,319 --> 00:05:46,959 years ago. I had a contract for a book in ninety nine called The 81 00:05:46,959 --> 00:05:51,680 Blue Mafia, Racism and Corruption Inside the NYPD. I had been working on 82 00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:57,000 that for many years with William Acosta. He was a detective and he had 83 00:05:57,240 --> 00:06:00,720 rooted out all this racism and corruption and we were doing a book together, 84 00:06:00,879 --> 00:06:02,720 and then nine to eleven hit and it was like, I was in the 85 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:05,759 middle of doing this, and my editors, there's no way that we can 86 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:09,839 say and why PD cops are bad? Look at the front page of every 87 00:06:09,879 --> 00:06:14,040 paper. So I abandoned that and then I moved on to the Christen Gilbert 88 00:06:14,079 --> 00:06:17,319 story Perfect Poison. So Matt as an English teacher, I'm always interested in 89 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:21,439 asking other writers to talk a little bit about their writing style, their process. 90 00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:24,920 Can you tell us just a little bit about your process. I'd love 91 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:29,160 to hear. That's a great question. My process is that, for the 92 00:06:29,199 --> 00:06:32,639 past twenty something years, I get up about four thirty five o'clock in the 93 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:39,800 morning and I begin my day writing, whether I'm writing a book or a 94 00:06:39,839 --> 00:06:44,639 podcast, or a TV script or a treatment or whatever I'm doing. And 95 00:06:44,879 --> 00:06:47,199 when I'm working on a book I write. First of all. With the 96 00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:50,160 book, they're all nonfiction. So I go out and I do all the 97 00:06:50,199 --> 00:06:55,480 investigating, I do all the interviews, et cetera, et cetera. Same 98 00:06:55,480 --> 00:06:58,560 with Paper Ghosts the podcast. I go out, I spend a couple of 99 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:01,360 months doing all my interviews with people who are going to tell this story. 100 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:04,720 And then I come back and then I sit down and I get up every 101 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:10,279 morning I start to write out everything and go through the interviews. And it's 102 00:07:10,279 --> 00:07:13,480 the same process for a book. Generally, when I'm writing a book, 103 00:07:13,519 --> 00:07:16,040 I don't start on page one. It's a dark and stormy night. Sometimes 104 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:20,560 I start at the end. It all depends on the information and how I 105 00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:26,720 need to understand it. The process is I work on ten, twelve, 106 00:07:27,079 --> 00:07:31,160 fifteen, sometimes twenty pages in a day, and the next day I edit 107 00:07:31,199 --> 00:07:35,399 them, and then I work on the next twenty and then I edit those, 108 00:07:35,519 --> 00:07:39,000 and it's a process that I just keep going over and over, and 109 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:42,759 then when I'm done with the manuscript, I probably rewrite a book probably twenty 110 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:46,040 times before I'm happy with it. I just love that process, I really 111 00:07:46,079 --> 00:07:49,959 do. It really makes me. I think. One of the things I 112 00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:56,800 love most about writing is that it takes me. It's almost like I'm not 113 00:07:57,319 --> 00:08:00,600 in the world, out of the world. The world world we live in 114 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:03,000 today is a good world to get out of sometimes, and writing does that 115 00:08:03,079 --> 00:08:07,839 for me. I just I'm in the moment. I'm zeroed in on what 116 00:08:07,879 --> 00:08:11,600 I'm doing completely. I'm in, as they call the flow. There's a 117 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:15,279 book called The Flow. I'm in the flow time and space is gone. 118 00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:18,480 And I like that. I like that world. So when you start early 119 00:08:18,519 --> 00:08:24,439 in the morning, Matt, then is there a time of day you'll end 120 00:08:24,959 --> 00:08:28,199 or do you write until you collapsed from exhaustion. That's a good question, 121 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:33,320 Bill. You can be creative for probably four or five hours a day tops. 122 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:39,639 So I work that creative time and then I take a break or whatever, 123 00:08:39,879 --> 00:08:45,200 and then I go into editing mode or I do TV stuff. I 124 00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:48,480 meet I have a lot of meetings with producers, etc. Production companies. 125 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:52,279 I work on treatments. I'm working on a sizzle reel right now for a 126 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:56,320 show that I'm getting ready to pitch. So I switch gears from the writer 127 00:08:56,720 --> 00:09:05,120 to the TV slash, a podcast producer, et cetera. In the afternoon 128 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:11,000 and work stuff out with podcasting more than books, especially with paper Ghosts. 129 00:09:11,519 --> 00:09:16,159 Paper ghost takes me over a year to do, and I have about four 130 00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:20,279 other people working on it with me. For a lot of that time, 131 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:24,200 there's a lot of miscellaneous stuff you have to do for a limited series, 132 00:09:24,279 --> 00:09:31,240 podcast and promotion, et cetera. So yeah, my five hours are writing, 133 00:09:31,279 --> 00:09:33,720 four hours of writing, and then it's another five, six, seven, 134 00:09:33,799 --> 00:09:39,879 sometimes eight hours of whatever TV podcasting work. Since you started telling us 135 00:09:39,879 --> 00:09:45,000 a little bit about paper ghosts, let's carry that through. Tell us a 136 00:09:45,039 --> 00:09:48,360 little bit about how you got started with paper ghosts and what is the main 137 00:09:48,759 --> 00:09:56,600 concepts behind paper ghosts. So a paper ghost is a missing person poster on 138 00:09:56,639 --> 00:10:00,879 a telephone poll. It's a paper ghost because we don't know where that person 139 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:05,799 is. So I met a producer on Doctor Oz, Lauren Bright Pacio and 140 00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:11,360 Doctor Oz and Happy Face's daughter, Melissa Moore, she also worked on the 141 00:10:11,399 --> 00:10:16,320 show. I had this big interview schedule they were going to do almost the 142 00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:20,360 complete hour on my book that was coming out, and the day before the 143 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:26,480 interview, the day before, they pulled the plug on it. And it 144 00:10:26,559 --> 00:10:31,840 was because of Melissa. She's the one responsible for that. So the plug 145 00:10:31,879 --> 00:10:35,879 got pulled on that. My publisher had even gone out I think with an 146 00:10:35,919 --> 00:10:39,200 additional five thousand copies of the book because of Doctor Oz. Because at the 147 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:43,720 time Doctor Oz was four o'clock in the afternoon. It was a big show, 148 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:46,279 and at the time you could sell books on TV. You can anymore, 149 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:50,320 but at the time you could. So I met Lauren, she was 150 00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:52,120 a producer on that show. She felt really bad for me. She was 151 00:10:52,159 --> 00:10:56,320 out of her hands. So we became friends, and she goes, listen, 152 00:10:56,399 --> 00:10:58,519 I know these people at iHeart they're starting a podcast division. You'd be 153 00:10:58,559 --> 00:11:03,720 perfect, So I want to make an introduction. So Lauren introduced me to 154 00:11:03,159 --> 00:11:09,759 Will Pearson, He's the president at iHeart podcasting division, and I had a 155 00:11:09,759 --> 00:11:13,600 meeting with them, and Paper ghost was born. I certainly had the material, 156 00:11:13,679 --> 00:11:16,799 as I do now, I have more material than it will ever use 157 00:11:16,919 --> 00:11:22,159 in my lifetime. And there was no other case that was going to be 158 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:26,919 the first season of paper Ghosts than the four missing girls from the town that 159 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:31,279 I lived in a neighboring town, and all the families I knew very well. 160 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:35,600 One of the girls I even had gone to school with. And so 161 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:41,360 I had been investigating those cases for twelve years and I had a lot of 162 00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:45,159 information and so there was never going to be any other case but that for 163 00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:48,519 season one, and so that's how that was born. When crossing the Line 164 00:11:48,559 --> 00:11:52,440 with em William Phelps just came out of that. They wanted me to do 165 00:11:52,519 --> 00:11:56,840 a weekly and ongoing as your show is, but just came from that. 166 00:11:56,960 --> 00:12:01,279 And also I have White Eagle. White Eagle is a sixth part limited series 167 00:12:01,759 --> 00:12:05,799 about the largest cash heist in the US at the time, which took place 168 00:12:05,799 --> 00:12:11,399 in West Harford, Connecticut in nineteen eighty three. Victor Herrena, he spent 169 00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:15,720 the longest time on the FBI's top ten Most Wanted. Very proud of that 170 00:12:15,799 --> 00:12:20,039 White Eagle. That's a really great six part limited series. We would definitely 171 00:12:20,080 --> 00:12:24,559 be remiss if we didn't mention Dark Minds because we do have such a strong 172 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:28,840 connection to Dark Minds. You guys did decide to cover the Colonial Parkway murders, 173 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:31,720 which we're very thankful for. So can you tell us a little bit 174 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:35,639 about Dark Minds for anybody who may not be familiar with it, And then 175 00:12:35,759 --> 00:12:39,440 how did Colonial Parkway murders come onto your radar and what made you go, 176 00:12:39,519 --> 00:12:41,840 you know what, let's do this on Dark Minds. It sounds great. 177 00:12:43,159 --> 00:12:48,600 Dark Minds, I think was a show before its time on Investigation Discovery. 178 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:54,919 The timing was off. We did three seasons. I did twenty four episodes 179 00:12:54,960 --> 00:13:00,559 of the show. Colonial Parkway was one, but pitch that show as as 180 00:13:00,879 --> 00:13:05,679 Silence of the Lambs meets Catch Me if you Can. That show was me 181 00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:11,639 out in the field investigating a new unsolved serial killer case each week. And 182 00:13:11,679 --> 00:13:16,120 it was on, as I said, Investigation Discovery, and I had a 183 00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:18,960 forensic psychologist, John Kelly, and I also had a serial killer, an 184 00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:26,120 anonymous serial killer on the phone who would give me direction his insight a quarterback 185 00:13:26,200 --> 00:13:30,519 does at an NFL game the next quarterback. Yeah, it was an interesting 186 00:13:30,559 --> 00:13:35,559 conceit. I remember enjoying it. And for the three seasons that Dark Minds 187 00:13:35,639 --> 00:13:39,799 was on, he was anonymous, his voice was disguised, and he had 188 00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:43,919 a nickname on the show, Raven, which I did not give him. 189 00:13:43,279 --> 00:13:48,279 The president of ID did. Many people thought he was fake. He was 190 00:13:48,279 --> 00:13:52,240 a trumped up reality TV thing and everything like that. When the show ended, 191 00:13:52,279 --> 00:13:56,120 I wrote a book, Dangerous Ground my friendship in quotes with a serial 192 00:13:56,200 --> 00:14:00,159 killer, and the entire time it was Keith Jesperson happy face killer. He 193 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:03,000 was Raven. He was the guy on the show, and we locked onto 194 00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:09,720 the Colonial Parkway murders. To be perfectly frank and honest with you, because 195 00:14:09,799 --> 00:14:13,399 at the time, there were probably thirty or forty unsolved serial killer cases in 196 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:18,080 the country that were connected, that felt connected, like these are cases that 197 00:14:18,519 --> 00:14:24,720 you are connected, there's probably a serial killer working here, and Colonial Parkway 198 00:14:24,759 --> 00:14:30,240 showed up on my radar because I had done research on these cases for many 199 00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:35,480 years and I knew that there was probably a serial killer, might be a 200 00:14:35,519 --> 00:14:39,840 serial killer working on the Colonial Parkway. I wasn't convinced and I still am 201 00:14:39,879 --> 00:14:43,960 not convinced today that all these cases are connected, the ones we covered on 202 00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:46,919 the show. I'm just not convinced to that. And yeah, that's how 203 00:14:46,919 --> 00:14:50,279 I met Bill, That's how I ended up doing the Colonial Parkway. It 204 00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:54,360 was one of my I think it was one of my if I can have 205 00:14:54,399 --> 00:14:58,600 a favorite out there filming this stuff, it was one of the ones I 206 00:14:58,639 --> 00:15:01,440 remember most. I remember It's funny. Every once in a while it hit 207 00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:07,279 me those president's heads in Williams Park, right, Yes, and exactly what 208 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:13,720 you're talking about. What was bizarre about them was it they were the weeds 209 00:15:13,759 --> 00:15:16,720 were overgrown, it was closed, yep, and it was just so eerie. 210 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:24,200 It was park President's Park. It was park bizarre and that always pops 211 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:26,159 in my mind every once in a while. Well, no, I was 212 00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:31,120 there for the week filming. Now help us out, and remember we have 213 00:15:31,159 --> 00:15:33,639 people listening all over the world. I have no idea what the two of 214 00:15:33,679 --> 00:15:39,840 you were talking about. What is President's Park in Williamsburg. President's Park was 215 00:15:39,919 --> 00:15:43,000 a very It's an interesting conceit. I will give it that. It was 216 00:15:43,039 --> 00:15:46,679 this idea that there would be a park and in the park there would be 217 00:15:48,399 --> 00:15:54,120 busts, huge busts of all of the president's head and shoulders, bus the 218 00:15:54,120 --> 00:16:00,000 presidents, and they were all just set around this beautiful park land area. 219 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:06,120 Yeah. But unfortunately the President's Park was not as popular as I think the 220 00:16:06,279 --> 00:16:08,720 planners were hoping it would be. I think they were picturing it as like 221 00:16:08,919 --> 00:16:12,000 a place where people could go on field trips and you can learn lots of 222 00:16:12,039 --> 00:16:17,879 instructive things about the president. But ultimately what happened is the park closed and 223 00:16:18,039 --> 00:16:22,320 all it was forty three busts of the president's up to that point. I 224 00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:27,840 think Obama was the last one those crumbling President's heads are sitting out in a 225 00:16:27,879 --> 00:16:33,000 field way out beyond where I live, and they're just crumbling to dust. 226 00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:37,919 I have never understood. We are all growing up around them in the same 227 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:44,399 location where they were originally placed. Now they were moved away from the original 228 00:16:44,399 --> 00:16:47,799 location, and they were just dumped out in this field. And I've never 229 00:16:47,879 --> 00:16:52,360 understood why they couldn't at least decide, okay, let's take the Abraham Lincoln, 230 00:16:52,399 --> 00:16:56,879 hadn't put it the Lincoln Lincoln sites and things like that. I don't 231 00:16:56,879 --> 00:17:00,120 know why JFK's head didn't go to the JFK President's Library or something like that. 232 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:03,599 They're just like crumbling to dust out there in a field with weeds growing 233 00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:07,839 up all around them just like they. Are they standing vertically or are they 234 00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:11,720 lying on their sides like a like junked cars. I haven't been out there. 235 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:15,519 There is one day a year or two days a year where you can 236 00:17:15,559 --> 00:17:18,920 actually apply to go out there to look at it and take photos. I 237 00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:23,880 haven't gone. Actually have friends who do. When we were filming, they 238 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:26,440 were still in the park where they were still in the park, okay, 239 00:17:26,519 --> 00:17:30,119 because we had to walk through the gate to get in there, like the 240 00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:34,640 turnstile and it was it felt like when you were there, it felt like 241 00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:41,759 Armageddon had happened really in this place had been one of the places, and 242 00:17:41,799 --> 00:17:45,039 because the weeds and everything, it was just very eerie. It was really 243 00:17:45,039 --> 00:17:48,000 creepy. I've ever been there. This is very and I just recall that 244 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:52,960 about filming because we did a lot of filming just driving up and down the 245 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:56,359 Colonial Parkway, b roll that sort of thing. Yeah, that's what I 246 00:17:56,720 --> 00:18:02,599 remember. I remember, and I also remember Steve. Steve've helped me out 247 00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:10,440 the detective Steve he's he now on that that trumped up show that called Justice 248 00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:15,240 Ship. Yeah, that that that that made up whatever. I won't get 249 00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:18,359 into that here. I won't settle that. I think you see, I 250 00:18:18,359 --> 00:18:23,519 think he just did. Steve. Steve is a great guy guy. Steve 251 00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:27,079 was a great guy. I remember interviewing him at one of the I think 252 00:18:27,079 --> 00:18:32,680 it was where your sister Bill was where they were found. Steve and I 253 00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:36,519 were right there and that's where I interviewed him. And just a great guy, 254 00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:38,400 just a great guy. He knew a lot about the case and it 255 00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:44,519 was one of my favorite gigs for that series, Colonial Parkway. On One 256 00:18:44,559 --> 00:18:47,759 of the reasons is because I think it can be solved. A lot of 257 00:18:47,799 --> 00:18:51,799 the cases can be solved. And a lot of times when I would go 258 00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:55,039 to a city that wasn't the case, I'm like, I'd be there and 259 00:18:55,039 --> 00:18:56,400 I'd be like, Yeah, these cases are not going to be solved. 260 00:18:56,599 --> 00:19:00,240 It's this is not happening. When I ran into a case, and I 261 00:19:00,319 --> 00:19:04,240 might say that we did what was called at the time the original Nightstalker, 262 00:19:04,279 --> 00:19:08,119 we did that as well, and which became a Golden State Killer. Yeah, 263 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:11,720 so we A lot of times I just say, that's just there's not 264 00:19:11,839 --> 00:19:17,200 enough information. But with Colonial Parkway, there is enough information to put that 265 00:19:17,279 --> 00:19:19,200 together ourselves. So we've always been saying that, and of course now we're 266 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:26,359 seeing significant developments. They've identified one offender. We know he's linked to one 267 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:32,960 of the pairs, Robin Edwards and David Nobling, and the FBI won't admit 268 00:19:33,079 --> 00:19:37,000 this publicly, and the FBI and the Virginia State Police stumbled all over themselves 269 00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:42,319 January eighth, twenty twenty four announcing the identification of this suspect, but they 270 00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:48,319 failed to mention he's also suspect number one in the disappearance of Keith coll and 271 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:53,559 Cassandra Haley. It's just ludicrous that they failed to mention this publicly. So 272 00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:57,599 it's up to the rest of us that know the case to call them out 273 00:19:57,680 --> 00:20:02,759 on their trans questions. Cover up whatever you want to be doing. The 274 00:20:02,839 --> 00:20:07,440 FBI has their own way of doing things. They just I don't like dealing 275 00:20:07,519 --> 00:20:11,359 with FBI because there's just a lot of there's a lot of silence, there's 276 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:17,839 a lot of misinformation. They don't tell you anything. You got free reports 277 00:20:17,839 --> 00:20:21,839 from them, and it takes forever. I'd rather deal with the detective who's 278 00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:26,279 been on it for twenty years, ten years. I have this week coming 279 00:20:26,359 --> 00:20:32,519 up. I have a detective from the LAPD Cold case detective Rachel Evans, 280 00:20:32,839 --> 00:20:38,240 who solved two cases that started before she was even born. Sixty years those 281 00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:45,160 cases were sitting in the cold case unit the entire time. She comes on 282 00:20:45,279 --> 00:20:51,559 board, and the three men in the cold case unit throw the case at 283 00:20:51,559 --> 00:20:53,680 her and say good luck, and they didn't even want her there. And 284 00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:56,440 what does she do. She solves them And they could have been solved at 285 00:20:56,480 --> 00:21:00,559 any time. The answers were right there had changed. All she did was 286 00:21:00,559 --> 00:21:06,200 do the work. So my point is, I like to deal with those 287 00:21:06,279 --> 00:21:11,720 types of detectives Laurie Howard. Detective Laurie Howard, who you've heard throughout season 288 00:21:11,799 --> 00:21:15,400 four now of Paper Ghosts, and you're gonna hear a lot more from in 289 00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:21,480 the final two episodes of The Ozarks. She and I became great friends. 290 00:21:21,559 --> 00:21:26,279 She's just she is just an incredible investigator. I comes across really well in 291 00:21:26,279 --> 00:21:32,039 the podcast series, and she's really smart. And she's also very grounded. 292 00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:36,079 And the two of you clearly very grounded. You too, clearly developed a 293 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:42,079 very strong rapport, very grounded. And here's a woman who kept Shauna Garber's 294 00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:48,920 box of bones under her desk then took them home. Here's someone who literally 295 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:53,759 extracted Shawna Garber's molars out of the back of her skull on our kitchen table 296 00:21:53,839 --> 00:21:57,160 because the department didn't have the money to do it, wouldn't give her the 297 00:21:57,200 --> 00:22:02,400 money. Extracted those to get them tested to see if there was a match 298 00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:06,920 anywhere. Here's a woman who snuck into a hospital in the middle of the 299 00:22:07,039 --> 00:22:11,680 night with Sewa garber skull to take scans of it in order to send those 300 00:22:11,759 --> 00:22:15,920 scans to Canada because she couldn't cross the border, of course with a box 301 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:19,720 of bones. So they could get a bust on a lot of this stuff 302 00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:23,880 she did without even getting paid on her own time. Those are the people 303 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:29,480 I like to deal with when I'm doing my work, the dedicated people who 304 00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:33,000 care about humanity, who are invested in humanity, and who are invested in 305 00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:41,319 victims' families, getting victims family's answers. That's my goal now, Kristen Bill. 306 00:22:41,559 --> 00:22:47,000 My goal now is to gather answers for victim's families who just aren't getting 307 00:22:47,039 --> 00:22:49,680 them. Whether the answer, I don't solve cases. I say it all 308 00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:53,480 the time, and whatever I do, I don't solve cases. I look 309 00:22:53,519 --> 00:22:57,200 for information. I dig up information, and I hand it over to the 310 00:22:57,200 --> 00:23:00,119 people who can do something with it, and I also hand it over to 311 00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:04,559 the family. So that's what I do. You're listening to Mind over Murder. 312 00:23:04,599 --> 00:23:18,559 We'll be right back after this word from our sponsors. We're back here 313 00:23:18,599 --> 00:23:22,680 at mindover Murder. I want to make sure we also talk about Crossing the 314 00:23:22,839 --> 00:23:29,680 Line, which is your other podcast among your many projects, for our listeners 315 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:33,680 who may be unaware. Talk to us a little bit about crossing the Line 316 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:40,240 and the impetus for setting up that podcast. So crossing the Line with em 317 00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:45,920 William Phelps is a weekly show half hour forty five minute episodes where I go 318 00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:51,000 through a case each week, one case per week. Sometimes I'll do a 319 00:23:51,039 --> 00:23:55,880 two to three parter. Are very rare. It's Paper Ghosts weekly, but 320 00:23:56,720 --> 00:24:00,960 it's more personal. I get personally invested in it. Speak my mind in 321 00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:04,240 this. Whereas Paper goes some more of the journalists, I keep the journalistic 322 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:11,119 this. I don't hold anything back. If something upsets me. A guy 323 00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:15,200 who did sixteen years for a murder when he was supposed to do forty, 324 00:24:15,519 --> 00:24:18,960 they let him out and he kills five more people. I get upset about 325 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:22,680 that. I get really enraged by that. That pisses me off because we 326 00:24:22,839 --> 00:24:27,160 had him, we had him, and we let him go right. And 327 00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:30,440 there's a lot of these guys out there. And I started this. I 328 00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:36,160 took a hiatus, a year hiatus with Crossing the Line because I wanted to 329 00:24:36,559 --> 00:24:38,880 A. I was busy with Paper Ghosts, very busy, and B I 330 00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:44,240 wanted to think about the show a little bit more, rebranded a little bit, 331 00:24:44,599 --> 00:24:48,200 and begin it again anew, which I did seven eight weeks ago. 332 00:24:48,799 --> 00:24:52,240 The first episode in this new incarnation, if you will, of Crossing the 333 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:56,559 Line, it's called The Wife the serial Killer and all the Money, and 334 00:24:56,640 --> 00:25:03,759 it's about the Long Island series killer's wife who was gifted, i'll say, 335 00:25:03,839 --> 00:25:11,799 gifted a seven figures a million dollars from NBC Universal so a production company could 336 00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:17,759 follow her while her husband, the alleged Long Island's serial killer, Rex Huerman, 337 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:22,400 goes through the process of trial, et cetera, et cetera. Okay, 338 00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:25,839 now I have a big problem with this bill would have a bigger problem. 339 00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:30,119 He's I'm a victim's family member. Myself, my sister in law was 340 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:33,559 pregnant and murdered. I don't speak from that here. I speak as someone 341 00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:40,799 who is disgusted by this because what this does is and look I said in 342 00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:45,400 the episode, I possibly be slitting my own throat to keep it in the 343 00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:48,200 true crime vein for producing TV in the future. But I don't give a 344 00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:56,759 shit. I really don't care, because you can't take a serial killer's wife 345 00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:02,799 and give that person and a million dollars and throw them up on TV and 346 00:26:02,839 --> 00:26:08,039 say we'll tell us about your life, because what you're doing is you're giving 347 00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:15,240 that serial killer the stage exactly, and you're saying that we're gonna reward the 348 00:26:15,319 --> 00:26:21,240 people in your life because the son of Sam Law won't allow us to give 349 00:26:21,279 --> 00:26:26,680 you any money. So we're gonna reward that family members, and we're gonna 350 00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:30,640 we're gonna put them on TV so they can just tell us they lived with 351 00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:36,240 a monster and they didn't know it. Okay, And my whole thing in 352 00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:38,640 this episode is this, they didn't hand over a million dollars for nothing. 353 00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:41,839 I think the line I used in the show is they didn't hand her a 354 00:26:41,839 --> 00:26:47,599 million dollars to talk about gardening with him and going out to outback with him. 355 00:26:48,079 --> 00:26:51,640 She had to bring something to the table. I've produced TV, bill 356 00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:56,319 has been involved. You have to bring something to the table before you get 357 00:26:56,440 --> 00:27:00,039 money. Okay, you can't just say I'm the wife of the serial killer. 358 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:03,720 That doesn't That's not how that works. So not only not it taints 359 00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:07,119 all the information she might have she might give to the FBI whatever. So 360 00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:11,640 this is so many things wrong with this. Right, no victims family members 361 00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:15,240 will appear on that show. I guarantee it. They're pissed, and they 362 00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:18,640 should be, Yeah, they should be outraged. The whole thing is so 363 00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:25,720 sleazy, And I don't have any personal agenda with ASA ellerop is her name, 364 00:27:26,279 --> 00:27:30,599 and on some level you could make a case that she is a victim. 365 00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:33,559 But does she and I do in the episode, I absolutely do, 366 00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:38,880 But she doesn't deserve a million dollars. And what they're paying for is access, 367 00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:44,559 and it's I think it's disgusting what they be. But here's the thing. 368 00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:48,720 When that case broke, the media, of course descends upon a Massapequa 369 00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:55,599 park and these people are living on the porch, basically cooking on the porch 370 00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:57,559 because their house has been torn apart, the yard's been torn apart, and 371 00:27:57,599 --> 00:28:02,839 they're shunning the media. She is yelling, screaming f bombs at the media. 372 00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:06,599 Stay away from me, Stay away, Stay away. Fast forward six 373 00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:11,279 months, million dollars now come on bull Access. And I think someone pointed 374 00:28:11,279 --> 00:28:15,200 out to me that in one of the reviews of that episode, someone attacked 375 00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:19,200 me by saying, how dare you go after her? She has cancer and 376 00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:22,720 she lost everything. She needs this money. Look, I'm sorry, she 377 00:28:22,759 --> 00:28:26,920 has cancer. Sorry she lost everything. Doesn't change anything for me, doesn't 378 00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:32,839 change my opinion one bit about this is bad for true crime as a genre, 379 00:28:33,039 --> 00:28:38,400 it's bad for victims, it's bad for future TV programs in the genre. 380 00:28:38,599 --> 00:28:42,279 So is at the bar. Now that's the bar that's set. Now 381 00:28:42,319 --> 00:28:47,480 we have to get as a producer myself, I have to get a serial 382 00:28:47,559 --> 00:28:52,400 killer's family members now to talk or so. As you can see, I'm 383 00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:56,799 heated up again all over about this. Now it's it's got myself worked up 384 00:28:56,799 --> 00:29:02,079 again. It's it is disgusting and all. So they've set the bar with 385 00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:07,000 this ridiculous figure that they're going to pay her a million dollars to have access 386 00:29:07,039 --> 00:29:10,799 to her story. And as you said, people don't want to just hear 387 00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:14,400 about the fact that she might be an avid gardener. And as far as 388 00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:17,200 I know, you made that up, it doesn't matter. Yeah, but 389 00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:21,000 they that's not what they really want to hear about. No, hell no, 390 00:29:21,319 --> 00:29:22,759 hell no. And I'll say this, I didn't get it in the 391 00:29:22,759 --> 00:29:27,240 show because it happened after I recorded. Recently, she's come out within the 392 00:29:27,279 --> 00:29:30,319 past couple of weeks and said this, I want to wait till all the 393 00:29:30,319 --> 00:29:34,279 facts are out before I make a judgment against them. Oh I saw that 394 00:29:34,359 --> 00:29:41,599 quote. Oh yeah, so now the tune is different. Why because she's 395 00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:47,359 going on TV with the story it has to be so yeah, so crossing 396 00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:53,400 the line answer your question, Kristen, you mean that wasn't the answer. 397 00:29:55,079 --> 00:29:57,759 Again, I go through a case and I do talk about the case from 398 00:29:57,839 --> 00:30:02,680 a start to finish, and sometimes I have guests. This week, I 399 00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:04,599 have a detective, and then I at the end, when we get to 400 00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:07,079 the trial part of it all, or the justice part of it all, 401 00:30:07,079 --> 00:30:11,720 that's when I start to start to I call people out. Look, I'm 402 00:30:11,759 --> 00:30:14,759 calling people out for who they are. If you're a scumbag, I'm going 403 00:30:14,799 --> 00:30:17,240 to call you a scumbag on the show. But if you're a piece of 404 00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:19,519 shit, I'm going to call you that. If you if you stalk little 405 00:30:19,519 --> 00:30:26,160 boys and you've you've already molested two and spent time in jail and you almost 406 00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:30,039 killed one and they let you out again, I'm going to attack the judge. 407 00:30:30,079 --> 00:30:32,880 I'm going to attack the parole board. That's what I'm going to do 408 00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:37,160 on that show. So you find yourself you're able to remain dispassionate and keep 409 00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:48,279 your remove and emotions in check. Absolutely. Now, the origin of the 410 00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:51,680 name of the show. You talked about paper Ghosts, which is a very 411 00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:56,799 interesting title. Where does the name crossing the Line come from? It's the 412 00:30:56,799 --> 00:31:00,480 best titles I think have a double meaning. So crossing the line is crossing 413 00:31:00,559 --> 00:31:04,000 the crime scene line, you're crossing it into You're going into that Terrea. 414 00:31:04,119 --> 00:31:07,960 The other thing is, I'm going to cross the line and I'm going to 415 00:31:07,079 --> 00:31:10,759 call you a ship bag. If you're a ship bag, I'm gonna I'm 416 00:31:10,759 --> 00:31:14,680 gonna I'm gonna call out a judge. I'm going to name that judge. 417 00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:18,200 I'm going to call out a parole board. I'm going to name those people 418 00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:21,279 on the parole board if they let a guy out after twenty years when he 419 00:31:21,319 --> 00:31:25,960 sentenced to forty and he kills two more people. I did an episode where 420 00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:30,640 I grew up in verning, Connecticut and as a middle schooler eighth grade, 421 00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:33,279 I had a girlfriend we weren't dating at the time, who was on my 422 00:31:33,359 --> 00:31:37,680 bus. She didn't get on the bus. One morning, kid at the 423 00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:40,680 bus stop gets on the bus. No one liked this kid. There was 424 00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:44,640 something weird about him. Long story short, he strangled her in the woods 425 00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:48,680 behind the bus stop. That oh my, oh, my god. I 426 00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:52,079 was thinking about this and talking to somebody, and I've just been around murder 427 00:31:52,119 --> 00:31:56,440 all my life, murder surround. Yeah, yeah, thirteen, fourteen years 428 00:31:56,480 --> 00:32:00,079 old at this, Yeah, my god, so what happened to that kid? 429 00:32:00,079 --> 00:32:07,359 Hold on, they arrest him. He gets twenty five years because he 430 00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:09,440 was seventeen at the time. He gets twenty five years. He's out. 431 00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:15,079 In seventeen, he goes down to North Carolina, moves down there. He 432 00:32:15,119 --> 00:32:20,039 beats his girlfriend the death down there with one of the spindles from the baby 433 00:32:20,599 --> 00:32:24,480 crib in front of the baby, beats her to death. He gets like 434 00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:30,279 thirty eight years for that. And the day my show aired. The day 435 00:32:30,319 --> 00:32:35,720 it aired, pro board let him out. He's out again. He killed 436 00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:40,440 two women brutally, and that mother is out walking the street right now. 437 00:32:40,759 --> 00:32:46,119 Wow. So I crossed the line when I start to call out these parole 438 00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:50,559 boards and judges and say, look, man, we're not asking you to 439 00:32:50,599 --> 00:32:54,079 reinvent law. We're not asking you to go to the Supreme Court and argue 440 00:32:54,119 --> 00:33:00,079 something. We're just saying no, say no, and enforce the law that 441 00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:05,279 we asked you to enforce. That's it, that's all you got to do. 442 00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:08,240 All you got to do is say you killed two women. We're not 443 00:33:08,319 --> 00:33:12,359 letting you out. Yeah, there's no rehab for that guy. That guy 444 00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:16,160 can't be put back that on the street. No. So this is the 445 00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:21,119 thesis of the title, if you will, yeah, yeah, And those 446 00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:24,960 stories need to be told. They need to be told. I did a 447 00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:30,359 two parter called Bumble Death and Bumble is a is a dating app. If 448 00:33:30,359 --> 00:33:37,119 you don't know bill dating app' met my partner seventeen years ago on a dating 449 00:33:37,119 --> 00:33:40,000 app. Okay, so Bumble is a dating app. Then, and so 450 00:33:40,079 --> 00:33:45,319 this woman in Bridgeport, Connecticut, a black woman meets a guy and they 451 00:33:45,559 --> 00:33:50,240 correspond for a couple of weeks, and long story short, he comes over 452 00:33:50,279 --> 00:33:53,519 for a date. She winds up dead. I remember reading about this story. 453 00:33:54,079 --> 00:33:58,319 Yeah, she winds up dead at the same time, the same night, 454 00:33:58,839 --> 00:34:02,799 maybe two miles away, other black women goes on a date. She 455 00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:07,119 winds up dead. The Bridgeport police, who I am not going to say 456 00:34:07,119 --> 00:34:10,559 investigated because they didn't do any investigation. And I'm not saying these people were 457 00:34:10,639 --> 00:34:16,079 murdered, but there are really strange circumstances around these debts. And you have 458 00:34:16,119 --> 00:34:22,800 two women dying roughly, two black women dying within two miles of each other. 459 00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:28,760 It's very strange. Yeah. The Bridgeport police, the detectives who look 460 00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:32,199 at both cases, don't even tell the families. The families have no idea 461 00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:38,320 their people have died. Days go by, they have to investigate themselves, 462 00:34:38,599 --> 00:34:45,960 and actually they don't find out until they call the Medical Examiner's office in Farmington, 463 00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:50,679 Connecticut and say, is my daughter there? This is her name? 464 00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:54,679 Yeah, we got her. The police never told them, never made contact 465 00:34:54,719 --> 00:35:00,239 with the families. There is just so much racism involvend than this, and 466 00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:06,000 there's so much not These people don't matter. Yeah, the lack of piring 467 00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:12,119 is evident, right, the lack of humanity and the lack people today place 468 00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:15,639 so little value on human life. It's just astonishing to me. It's remarkable 469 00:35:15,679 --> 00:35:20,760 to me, and some of those people, unfortunately are in law enforcement and 470 00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:23,840 judges and etc. That enrages me. And I'm going to report on it 471 00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:29,639 when I can. Matt, you were referenced already that your sister in law 472 00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:31,920 was murdered. You did just mention. Of course, it feels like you've 473 00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:37,639 been around crime your whole entire life. How much of an impact do you 474 00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:42,480 think your sister in law's murder had on your future in the business? Does 475 00:35:42,519 --> 00:35:45,199 that inform the way that you do things? Now? How impactful would you 476 00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:49,920 say it is? That's a good question. It wasn't the impetus for me 477 00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:53,079 to get into this. That wasn't the thing. However, it did allow 478 00:35:53,159 --> 00:35:59,960 me to walk into Bill Thomas's house twelve years ago with my Dark Minds crew 479 00:36:00,119 --> 00:36:02,679 and sit in front of Bill and have a common bond that I could relate 480 00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:07,559 to him in a way that other people can't. I know what it's like 481 00:36:07,639 --> 00:36:13,119 to lose a family member. It gave me that kind of common bond that 482 00:36:13,159 --> 00:36:15,920 I could bring to my work, definitely, because I've seen what it's done 483 00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:21,159 to my family. So it helped me in that respect for sure. The 484 00:36:21,159 --> 00:36:25,280 most striking thing about working on Dark Minds with you was how much furniture the 485 00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:32,480 crew moved around. They removed furniture around Reward, North America. Trust me, 486 00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:38,519 they wanted certain angles and they wanted certain light and they ended up like 487 00:36:38,639 --> 00:36:44,000 moving every stick of furniture in I remember that took a while. Yeah, 488 00:36:44,079 --> 00:36:46,239 wow, take a while, which gave us plenty of time to talk and 489 00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:50,840 get to know each other even before the cameras were going. So yeah, 490 00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:54,159 it's definitely helped me in that respect. Sure. And was her murder ever 491 00:36:54,239 --> 00:37:00,519 solved? The call last summer that is basically solved, but there's problems with 492 00:37:00,599 --> 00:37:07,159 the evidence and stuff. So they're hoping they can get these two people who 493 00:37:07,159 --> 00:37:12,320 did it. They're still around. They're optimistic that they can develop the evidence 494 00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:15,400 more. Unfortunately, some of the evidence was contaminated at the crime scene. 495 00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:21,960 It happens. There's no corruption, there's no nefarious activity. Stuff happens at 496 00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:24,960 crime scenes. Stuff gets contaminated. So that's what happened. Yeah. One 497 00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:29,559 of the things I've said to the investigators in the Colonial Parkway murders, my 498 00:37:29,639 --> 00:37:34,719 sister's case, is that I remind the investigators from time to time that family 499 00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:39,480 members are looking for answers. We all understand that we may not get the 500 00:37:39,599 --> 00:37:45,239 perfect answer, which is so and so has been identified as the offender. 501 00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:47,719 They're going to be indicted, They're going to be tried, they're going to 502 00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:52,239 be convicted. There's going to be appeals, but ultimately this person is going 503 00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:54,840 to be punished. When you're into a case for as long as we are, 504 00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:59,599 and now I'm thinking about your sister in law's case that stretches back a 505 00:37:59,679 --> 00:38:05,320 number of yours. Now, you're looking for answers more than anything else. 506 00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:09,239 You understand that it might not be a perfect situation. And this is one 507 00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:14,760 of the things I'm trying to remind our investigators in the Colonial Parkway case is 508 00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:20,480 that we're looking for answers. The offender that's been identified just recently in the 509 00:38:20,519 --> 00:38:23,559 Colonial Parkway murders died in twenty seventeen. He's never going to be tried, 510 00:38:23,559 --> 00:38:29,519 he's never going to be convicted. But actually having those answers is incredibly helpful. 511 00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:32,800 Do you feel the same way. Would it be of some comfort to 512 00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:37,800 you to know who the offenders are or in this case, the offenders are 513 00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:40,360 still around. Yeah, I know who they are. It would be more 514 00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:46,440 comforting to my niece and nephews who lost their mother and then my brother subsequently 515 00:38:46,519 --> 00:38:52,079 died like six years after her at forty seven. So it would be comforting 516 00:38:52,119 --> 00:38:55,039 to them to just be able to say, Okay, I'm done with this, 517 00:38:55,119 --> 00:38:59,360 now this is done, Now they have the people whatever. And I 518 00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:00,760 meet up with this paper ghosts a lot, And I say this in a 519 00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:05,599 lot of the seasons that families just want to be heard. They want to 520 00:39:05,639 --> 00:39:08,760 be heard, they want to know that they're being heard. And there's great 521 00:39:09,039 --> 00:39:15,000 police all over this country who do that job very well. We mentioned Laurie 522 00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:20,519 Howard, we mentioned I mentioned Rachel Evans from the LAPD Detective Rachel Evans. 523 00:39:20,559 --> 00:39:27,400 So I've met scores of detectives and police who do that very well because they 524 00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:31,199 know it's one of the most important parts of their job is to make sure 525 00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:36,159 that the family is being heard. So, Matt, what's next for you? 526 00:39:36,239 --> 00:39:39,079 In terms of projects? It looks like you always have a little something 527 00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:44,599 percolating in the background. Can you tell us any of what you're currently working 528 00:39:44,639 --> 00:39:46,559 on or are we going to keep that on the dal for now? No, 529 00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:51,639 I'm working on I have a book project. I think I haven't written 530 00:39:51,639 --> 00:39:53,800 a book in about three years, and that was the first time in maybe 531 00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:59,000 twenty two years I hadn't worked stopped working on books. So I'm getting Jones 532 00:39:59,039 --> 00:40:01,519 in to work on a book that is definitely coming. Crossing the Line is 533 00:40:01,519 --> 00:40:05,239 going to continue now for I think the next year. I'm going to do 534 00:40:05,599 --> 00:40:08,519 week to week for the next year, I hope to do. There's more 535 00:40:08,519 --> 00:40:14,320 paper Ghosts will be coming. And I'm working on a project that has nothing 536 00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:16,599 to do with crime and actually has to do with comedy. It's a television 537 00:40:16,639 --> 00:40:21,800 project, which is I like the idea of that. Every once in a 538 00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:24,360 while, I pop in a different type of genre with TV when I pitch 539 00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:29,320 TV and I'm hoping that goes somewhere. Actually, I'm going to be filming 540 00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:34,159 a Hulu series this month, a three part Hulu series. Yeah, that's 541 00:40:34,239 --> 00:40:39,440 right on true crime, comedy or an intersection of the two gardening gardening A 542 00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:44,159 gardening show. No, this is true crime. Build a Hulu thing is 543 00:40:44,159 --> 00:40:47,480 true crime. Yeah, there are enough gardening shows. Although I do I 544 00:40:47,519 --> 00:40:53,320 do garden. I do garden, and no one could do a better gardening 545 00:40:53,360 --> 00:41:01,119 show than Monty Gardener's Gardener's World on BBC fifty eight seasoning that show. You'd 546 00:41:01,119 --> 00:41:04,719 have to pay me money to watch a gardening show. I'm sorry. I 547 00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:07,360 love it. After doing true crime all day, put on a garden and 548 00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:12,079 show at night. That just brings you right back down on earth. I 549 00:41:12,119 --> 00:41:16,400 want to watch the take apart and fix vintage cards. Yeah, there you 550 00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:22,119 go, that's your gardening. I was going to say my last question for 551 00:41:22,199 --> 00:41:24,840 you, Matt is how do you step away from true crime at the end 552 00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:29,400 of the day, because like us, you're immersed in it. If you 553 00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:32,760 don't turn on a gardening show at the end of the day, do you 554 00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:37,480 watch stand up? What do you do to keep yourself from becoming so mired 555 00:41:37,559 --> 00:41:42,840 down in the darkness that is prevalent in this in the genre. The thing 556 00:41:43,480 --> 00:41:46,480 I love second beyond writing is reading. So I read a lot of literature. 557 00:41:46,599 --> 00:41:51,719 I read a lot of literary stuff. I read a lot about religious 558 00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:54,760 history. I just I read about I read a lot of writer biographies. 559 00:41:54,800 --> 00:42:00,199 Actually, I just read a great biography, Larry mcmurtury biography, and that 560 00:42:00,519 --> 00:42:04,639 just takes me out of the world. I like that answer. I would 561 00:42:04,679 --> 00:42:07,920 love to see your library at some point or another, said the English teacher 562 00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:10,840 of me. You can come up and stay at the Maple House and then 563 00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:15,199 we can go visit with Matt. Do you have there you go? Yeah, 564 00:42:15,199 --> 00:42:20,000 you come down the Coventry farming community. You see the horses and carls. 565 00:42:20,079 --> 00:42:22,079 Yeah, and don't forget Matt, you have friends here in Norfolk, 566 00:42:22,079 --> 00:42:27,039 Connecticut, so you can always come over for a visit. Yeah. I 567 00:42:27,559 --> 00:42:30,599 have a friend who has family out in Salisbury. Is that's out there right, 568 00:42:30,719 --> 00:42:34,840 yes? Yeah, next door. Yeah, a good friend of mine. 569 00:42:35,039 --> 00:42:37,159 He's a writer as well. He has family out there. He goes 570 00:42:37,159 --> 00:42:39,760 out there a lot. My kids live out in New Hartford, Torrington, 571 00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:44,559 that area that's over our way. Yeah, you got the Root eight serial 572 00:42:44,639 --> 00:42:47,320 killer out that way. The case has been going on for forty years. 573 00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:52,800 Yeah, yeah, body bodies all over the place. Fascinating story. And 574 00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:54,920 a friend of mine had written a very good book about that case as well. 575 00:42:55,480 --> 00:43:00,280 Oh no kidding, since a partnership coming on one. Yeah, that's 576 00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:06,599 an interesting case. The books are too many and too numerous to list, 577 00:43:06,639 --> 00:43:09,559 but the podcasts are Paper Ghosts and Crossing the Line. Matt Phelps, thank 578 00:43:09,599 --> 00:43:13,360 you so much for joining us today on Mind of Murder. We appreciate you 579 00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:16,079 taking the time to talk to us. This was great. Thanks thanks for 580 00:43:16,119 --> 00:43:22,360 having me. I really appreciate it. Look for m William Phelps wherever books 581 00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:29,320 are sold, television series are produced, or podcasts are listened to. There 582 00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:31,440 you go. That is going to do it for this episode of Mind of 583 00:43:31,639 --> 00:43:36,840 Murder. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next time. 584 00:43:45,679 --> 00:43:52,480 Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and Another Dog Productions. Our 585 00:43:52,519 --> 00:43:57,800 executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. Our logo art is by Pamela 586 00:43:57,960 --> 00:44:02,360 Arnois. Our theme music is by Kevin mcleoud. Mind Over Murder is distributed 587 00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:07,559 in partnership with crawl Space Media. You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, 588 00:44:07,679 --> 00:44:12,719 or Instagram. You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway murders 589 00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:16,239 on Facebook, and finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at Bill 590 00:44:16,280 --> 00:44:44,920 Thomas. Five six. Thank you for listening to Mind Over Murder