WEBVTT 1 00:00:04.759 --> 00:00:08.720 Hey, folks, welcome back to another episode of the Ruby Rogues podcast. 2 00:00:09.080 --> 00:00:13.919 This week, on our panel, we have Valentino Stole Hey Now, I'm 3 00:00:14.000 --> 00:00:20.239 Charles Maxwood from Top Endevs, and we also have a yush A yush Nuwatya. 4 00:00:20.320 --> 00:00:23.320 I always feel weird, like I'm saying it wrong. No, you're 5 00:00:23.399 --> 00:00:29.320 right, absolutely right. So yeah, so we were getting on. We 6 00:00:29.440 --> 00:00:33.560 didn't have a guest this week. I keep inviting people and then for whatever 7 00:00:33.600 --> 00:00:37.000 reason, they don't get on our calendar. So if you if you have 8 00:00:37.039 --> 00:00:41.799 a topic you want to talk about, let us know. But yeah, 9 00:00:42.600 --> 00:00:46.600 Ayush is new to the show and we were chatting, and you know, 10 00:00:46.679 --> 00:00:51.200 next week we're going to talk with him about Bridgetown. But uh, I 11 00:00:51.240 --> 00:00:53.719 thought, you know what, let's get to know him a little bit and 12 00:00:54.119 --> 00:00:58.079 kind of get his background on things. So Ayush, I'm kind of curious. 13 00:00:58.119 --> 00:01:00.479 I don't know exactly where to start. I like the idea of starting 14 00:01:00.560 --> 00:01:04.599 how you got into Ruby, but you were doing other stuff before Ruby, 15 00:01:04.640 --> 00:01:07.200 So maybe we start with how you got into programming and then kind of move 16 00:01:07.200 --> 00:01:11.599 along from there. Yeah, for sure, I think it started the beginning. 17 00:01:12.400 --> 00:01:17.200 I came through a fairly traditional route. I think I studied computer science 18 00:01:17.239 --> 00:01:21.799 at university, although I'd like to say that course doesn't count because it was 19 00:01:22.319 --> 00:01:30.840 quite shit. Date. Should you go to college to become a programmer, 20 00:01:33.799 --> 00:01:37.480 Probably not, But as I grew up in India, moved to the UK 21 00:01:37.719 --> 00:01:45.280 at London for university, and despite not learning maybe a whole lot about actual 22 00:01:45.439 --> 00:01:49.480 practical industry, programming at university did give me the degree that I needed to 23 00:01:49.480 --> 00:01:55.400 get a work visa. Hear, so it oppened that regard, but I 24 00:01:55.439 --> 00:02:00.879 mean it was the course was just so like basic. They thought they just 25 00:02:00.920 --> 00:02:05.239 start Java, and it was like I had no idea how to run code 26 00:02:05.359 --> 00:02:10.599 outside of Eclipse, like when Eclipse was the more popular ID over Intelligence or 27 00:02:10.599 --> 00:02:14.360 whatever. I honestly like, I didn't know how to write a unit test, 28 00:02:15.319 --> 00:02:19.319 completely clueless about what to do if I didn't have Eclipse, and it 29 00:02:19.439 --> 00:02:23.319 was Yeah. When I got my first job, I was like, Okay, 30 00:02:23.520 --> 00:02:30.319 the real world's fairly different. So I have to ask, first of 31 00:02:30.319 --> 00:02:32.719 all, because I did Java, and now when I talk to people who 32 00:02:32.759 --> 00:02:39.840 are going to college, they're usually using Python. So how long ago was 33 00:02:39.879 --> 00:02:45.240 this? Like? Are you an old guy like me? Are you just 34 00:02:45.280 --> 00:02:49.319 got into an old guy program? I think a younger guy that got into 35 00:02:49.360 --> 00:02:53.479 an old guy program. I was at university twenty eleven twenty fourteen, so 36 00:02:53.599 --> 00:03:00.280 not that long ago, right, So you yeah, you were in because 37 00:03:00.280 --> 00:03:05.680 I went. Now I'm really going to date myself. I started in nineteen 38 00:03:05.759 --> 00:03:09.479 ninety nineteen ninety eight, and I went for a couple of semesters and I 39 00:03:09.520 --> 00:03:13.240 went on a mission for my church for two years, and then when I 40 00:03:13.280 --> 00:03:15.439 came back, I graduated in two thousand and six. I came back and 41 00:03:16.080 --> 00:03:22.240 started back in school in two thousand and one, so not terribly too far 42 00:03:22.319 --> 00:03:30.039 apart, but yeah, okay, yeah, I ended up getting a job 43 00:03:30.120 --> 00:03:35.039 straight out of university, which was nothing short of a minor miracle, because 44 00:03:35.039 --> 00:03:37.800 it's so hot to get a work viz I hear in the UK. Oh 45 00:03:37.879 --> 00:03:43.479 really, but yeah, it's ridiculous. I just got super lucky. I 46 00:03:43.520 --> 00:03:46.080 got a job at this company called Akqa, which is like an agency, 47 00:03:46.360 --> 00:03:53.199 and they were just starting this graduate program. So that was the first Gohart, 48 00:03:53.439 --> 00:03:58.680 just me and another girl that were the first ever graduates in this graduate 49 00:03:58.719 --> 00:04:02.240 program. That allowed me to kind of do a lot of many different things 50 00:04:02.319 --> 00:04:06.199 in the first year. So I kind of did android development, I did 51 00:04:06.280 --> 00:04:12.639 DevOps, I did like software engineering and all that kind of stuff and ended 52 00:04:12.719 --> 00:04:18.720 up in this like hybrid iOS and Android role because my final year project, 53 00:04:18.720 --> 00:04:24.879 when dissertation project at university was an Android app. So I kind of ended 54 00:04:24.959 --> 00:04:29.800 up in mobile just through that, and I was iPhone user Apple fan at 55 00:04:29.839 --> 00:04:33.720 the time, and so obviously I didn't really want to do Android development. 56 00:04:33.839 --> 00:04:38.040 Is just that I had to do at university. So I kind of branched 57 00:04:38.040 --> 00:04:43.240 into iOS and ended up with this unique skill set where I could do both, 58 00:04:43.360 --> 00:04:47.920 So the company put me to work at both, and yeah, I 59 00:04:47.959 --> 00:04:54.800 worked there for a while. Then just obviously I gravitated towards iOS because a 60 00:04:54.800 --> 00:05:00.000 bigger Apple fan than an Android fan. I still despise Android. It's just 61 00:05:00.120 --> 00:05:03.360 so bad for my blood pressure every time I have to go and write any 62 00:05:03.399 --> 00:05:12.720 Android good. So then I ended up getting another job at a company called 63 00:05:12.720 --> 00:05:18.439 transfer Wise now known as Wise, and I was exclusively in an iOS developer 64 00:05:18.480 --> 00:05:25.639 there. Managed to shake off my Android roots, thankfully. Yeah, I 65 00:05:28.959 --> 00:05:32.959 was. I was doing objective cy for the first couple of years at Akqua 66 00:05:33.000 --> 00:05:38.600 because I was working on some legacy apps and Swift was still pretty new, 67 00:05:38.639 --> 00:05:44.399 and the interrupt between objectivecy and Swift was still liberty fee, so we as 68 00:05:44.399 --> 00:05:46.800 a company didn't want to take a risk on it with with damn good reason. 69 00:05:46.800 --> 00:05:50.959 I completely agreed with that decision. But when I moved over to transfer 70 00:05:51.000 --> 00:05:56.279 Wise, they had just done like a significant overhaul of the app a few 71 00:05:56.319 --> 00:06:00.240 months before I joined, and it was all Swift. So I got right 72 00:06:00.279 --> 00:06:03.199 Swift for a couple of years in like a production setting there, which was 73 00:06:03.279 --> 00:06:10.079 quite nice ish. Yeah, I remember when they made that switch. I 74 00:06:10.199 --> 00:06:14.319 was co hosting the I Freak Show at the time, and so I was 75 00:06:14.360 --> 00:06:16.720 talking about it. I wasn't actually writing anything in it, but it was 76 00:06:16.720 --> 00:06:20.439 definitely an interesting time period to be working in that and seeing some of the 77 00:06:20.480 --> 00:06:27.160 transitions that go on with some of that stuff. Yeah, it was. 78 00:06:27.279 --> 00:06:31.600 I think it was a much needed overhaul. I am probably one of the 79 00:06:31.720 --> 00:06:36.319 rare breed that actually liked objective cy I quite it was a bit of a 80 00:06:36.399 --> 00:06:42.639 both sure, but it felt it had a lot of a similarly toss to 81 00:06:42.759 --> 00:06:47.720 Ruby in terms of like meta programming and things like that. And I think 82 00:06:48.800 --> 00:06:53.319 one of the reasons that I was kind of I moved away from mobile development 83 00:06:53.720 --> 00:06:58.839 one of many reasons, but one of them was that Swift was becoming like 84 00:06:58.959 --> 00:07:08.560 what I perceived to be the javaification of Swift, where I felt I just 85 00:07:08.639 --> 00:07:15.079 felt that the team were kind of chasing like quote unquote academic perfection from the 86 00:07:15.199 --> 00:07:20.879 language rather than building features that were actually useful and all, Like the dynamic, 87 00:07:21.040 --> 00:07:26.279 advanced stuff that you got with objective Cy, They're kind of making an 88 00:07:26.279 --> 00:07:31.079 effort to remove that from Swift, and I just wasn't a fan of that 89 00:07:31.160 --> 00:07:40.920 direction at all. Interesting, So at what point did you find and move 90 00:07:40.959 --> 00:07:46.439 over to Ruby, I'm curious. So it was just before the pandemic. 91 00:07:46.480 --> 00:07:50.879 So I when I joined Transferises twenty seventeen, I actually knew that I would 92 00:07:50.959 --> 00:07:56.839 leave in exactly two years, because you need five years on a work visa 93 00:07:56.920 --> 00:08:01.519 in the UK to get residency, and while you're on a work visa, 94 00:08:01.839 --> 00:08:07.120 you your visa is tied to your employer, so you can't quit without getting 95 00:08:07.199 --> 00:08:13.319 kicked out of the country basically. So I was just waiting for that like 96 00:08:13.439 --> 00:08:16.399 residency period to quind of qualify for residency, apply for it, and then 97 00:08:16.600 --> 00:08:22.480 and then quit. Really, so it's summer twenty nineteen that I quit Transferise, 98 00:08:22.519 --> 00:08:24.480 and I was like, I'm going to take a few months off here 99 00:08:24.519 --> 00:08:28.839 because I'm burnt out as hell and any time off. So take a few 100 00:08:28.839 --> 00:08:31.759 months off, and I'm like, you know, I just really don't fancy 101 00:08:33.120 --> 00:08:37.919 mobile development anymore. As getting quite fair up a fit. I also kind 102 00:08:37.960 --> 00:08:43.440 of get quite a lot of my motivation from product development. I don't get 103 00:08:43.480 --> 00:08:46.399 it from like technical problems. I like, I like building products. I 104 00:08:46.399 --> 00:08:50.879 don't really care for that. I don't care that much for like interesting technical 105 00:08:50.919 --> 00:08:56.200 problems. And it's quite hard to build products when all you can do is 106 00:08:56.200 --> 00:09:01.360 build a mobile app, Like if you have no service side skills at all, 107 00:09:03.000 --> 00:09:05.360 there's not a lot you can do it just an app, right, 108 00:09:05.879 --> 00:09:11.120 So I was finding that quite limiting in what I wanted to build or have 109 00:09:11.240 --> 00:09:13.799 the skill set to build. So I was like, yeah, I think 110 00:09:13.840 --> 00:09:18.039 I'm gonna I think I'm gonna move to web because in the web world, 111 00:09:18.480 --> 00:09:22.360 if I can build it, I can deploy it and release it and sell 112 00:09:22.399 --> 00:09:26.600 it. In the mobile world, I need Apple to let me sell it, 113 00:09:26.000 --> 00:09:28.679 no matter how cheaper it might be. Like Apple might just say, 114 00:09:28.679 --> 00:09:33.120 like I might invest months into something and then Apple could just turn around and 115 00:09:33.159 --> 00:09:37.639 say, yeah, we're not going to prove that app. So I just 116 00:09:37.679 --> 00:09:43.159 didn't like that kind of aspect of it either. So I'd kind of been 117 00:09:43.159 --> 00:09:48.840 exposed to Ruby a fair amount just while working on OOS, because a lot 118 00:09:48.840 --> 00:09:54.120 of the infrastructure around iOS was in Ruby. Like until Swift got its native 119 00:09:54.320 --> 00:09:58.639 package manager, the most popular dependency in package manager in the iOS world was 120 00:09:58.679 --> 00:10:03.159 called ocpods, which is written in Ruby. Yeah, it's written in Ruby, 121 00:10:03.200 --> 00:10:09.879 which is yeah. Yeah, And there's a we had those guys on 122 00:10:09.080 --> 00:10:13.000 I freaks and it was kind of funny because yeah, I was nerding out 123 00:10:13.000 --> 00:10:20.639 about Ruby with them and yeah exactly. So like those like other bits, 124 00:10:20.679 --> 00:10:26.240 like there's a c I tool called fast Lane which just makes it quite easy 125 00:10:26.279 --> 00:10:31.759 to build like a CI pipeline for io s and stuff that didn't he No, 126 00:10:31.879 --> 00:10:37.039 it's Felix Cross. Oh, Felix Okay, Yeah, at least it 127 00:10:37.080 --> 00:10:41.039 was initially him fair Leish. I was initially him. It might be because 128 00:10:41.080 --> 00:10:43.799 I think it was bought by Twitter and then Google and then it changed hands 129 00:10:43.840 --> 00:10:46.960 a few times. I don't know where it ended mixed up with something else. 130 00:10:48.480 --> 00:10:52.919 Yeah, so that that wasn't Ruby as well. So I'd kind of 131 00:10:52.919 --> 00:10:56.759 done a bit of Ruby just because I had to deal with that stuff in 132 00:10:56.799 --> 00:11:01.799 the iOS world, and I quite I quite like the language. I liked 133 00:11:01.840 --> 00:11:07.080 like the raels ethos and stuff. So I just bought the reel s tutorial 134 00:11:07.120 --> 00:11:11.720 by Michael Hartle and that that's basically a rite of passages in it. You're 135 00:11:11.720 --> 00:11:16.879 allowed to be a reels developer if you haven't worked through that book. So 136 00:11:16.080 --> 00:11:24.519 I've never gone through the book. How dare you? I'm kidding. I 137 00:11:24.600 --> 00:11:28.799 remember when he wrote the book. I've been on that long fair enough, 138 00:11:31.480 --> 00:11:35.000 So yeah, I just I worked through that book. I built a product. 139 00:11:35.000 --> 00:11:39.240 I built a very simple blogging blogging app called Chapter twenty four, which 140 00:11:39.279 --> 00:11:43.279 I recently decommissioned. Actually need to write about that, I think, because 141 00:11:43.320 --> 00:11:46.840 a lot of people talk about the successes, but they don't really talk about 142 00:11:46.840 --> 00:11:50.240 things that didn't quite work. So I want to write a blog about why 143 00:11:50.279 --> 00:11:56.519 I built it and then why I decommissioned it. But yeah, I kind 144 00:11:56.519 --> 00:12:00.440 of just on the back of that, I kind of got into freelancing because 145 00:12:01.759 --> 00:12:03.840 somehow I ended up on the Bridgetown core team around that time as well. 146 00:12:03.879 --> 00:12:09.200 So this is all through twenty twenty that I was retraining as a Ruby developer, 147 00:12:09.200 --> 00:12:11.399 building Chapter twenty four and then a back half of twenty twenty, I 148 00:12:11.480 --> 00:12:15.320 ended up on the Bridgetown Core team, which I think is probably best to 149 00:12:15.320 --> 00:12:20.559 get into next week. And then just through sheer dumb luck, ended up 150 00:12:20.600 --> 00:12:24.039 with freelancer. I knew I wanted to do. I knew I wanted to 151 00:12:24.080 --> 00:12:28.519 freelance, but just through the sheer dumb luck of Twitter, ended up getting 152 00:12:28.519 --> 00:12:35.039 a contract. And as you know with the like in the Ruby world or 153 00:12:35.080 --> 00:12:39.039 any tech world like, the hardest thing with freelancing is getting the start. 154 00:12:39.759 --> 00:12:43.039 So once I had that first contract, which I worked with those guys for 155 00:12:43.120 --> 00:12:46.320 quite a while, I think it is over a year that I worked with 156 00:12:46.360 --> 00:12:48.440 them, and then it then it just snowball from there. Really, I 157 00:12:48.440 --> 00:12:52.120 wrote the book, took a few months off, wrote the book, and 158 00:12:52.159 --> 00:12:58.519 then it's been For that I think changed the trajectory of my career fairly significantly 159 00:12:58.559 --> 00:13:05.200 when Yeah, I released The Rails on hot Wire codex. Because now I 160 00:13:05.320 --> 00:13:09.279 just tend to find work. It's become so much easier because I can just 161 00:13:09.320 --> 00:13:16.039 point to this, the ridiculous brick of a book that I've written, and 162 00:13:16.080 --> 00:13:18.279 then people are like, oh, would you like to work with us? 163 00:13:18.279 --> 00:13:22.200 And that's a very privileged position to be and I'm incredibly grateful to be in 164 00:13:22.200 --> 00:13:26.240 that position. But yeah, that kind of brings us to where we are 165 00:13:26.320 --> 00:13:35.960 now. Nice. So are you finding work. I'm just curious and I'm 166 00:13:35.960 --> 00:13:39.159 just going to ask whatever questions I want. A lot of times I'm kind 167 00:13:39.159 --> 00:13:43.480 of steering the conversation a little bit, you know, because I think that 168 00:13:43.519 --> 00:13:46.600 people are going to want to know a specific thing, or you know, 169 00:13:46.559 --> 00:13:50.600 learn a specific thing, or I think it'll be helpful even if somebody doesn't 170 00:13:50.600 --> 00:13:54.120 think to ask it. I'm just going to ask what I want because I'm 171 00:13:54.159 --> 00:13:58.559 curious how much work comes in off of the rails and hot wire codex, 172 00:13:58.600 --> 00:14:03.000 because it's sounds like you kind of at least implied that that brings you some 173 00:14:03.039 --> 00:14:09.120 of the freelance work. Yeah, a fair amount. So like my previous 174 00:14:09.159 --> 00:14:15.159 client I worked with for about fifteen months, and I had posted on a 175 00:14:15.240 --> 00:14:18.519 number of forums at the time because as some work I had lined up fell 176 00:14:18.639 --> 00:14:22.440 through and I was quite desperate for work at the time, and I posted 177 00:14:22.480 --> 00:14:26.200 a number of forums saying I've written this book, and I've built this, 178 00:14:26.279 --> 00:14:33.159 that and the other thing. And I signed that contract without ever having a 179 00:14:33.200 --> 00:14:35.000 call with the client. They just saw my work and they're like, oh, 180 00:14:35.039 --> 00:14:39.360 yeah, can you start Monday. Here's the contract. And I was 181 00:14:39.399 --> 00:14:45.159 with them for like fifteen months or so. And then earlier this year, 182 00:14:45.200 --> 00:14:48.679 in about March, I published an update to my book for Strata and Rael 183 00:14:48.799 --> 00:14:54.919 seven point one, and I sent out a mailing blast to my mailing list 184 00:14:54.960 --> 00:14:56.799 for the book and I said at the end, by the way, I'm 185 00:14:56.840 --> 00:15:01.440 looking for some freelance work. My contract just ended. If you have anything, 186 00:15:01.480 --> 00:15:05.399 to get in touch. And I got an email back from someone who 187 00:15:05.519 --> 00:15:09.720 was working with this startup saying, Oh, we're looking for rails developers. 188 00:15:09.720 --> 00:15:11.919 This is a company I'm working with. It you interested. I was like, 189 00:15:13.039 --> 00:15:16.200 yeah, and I've been. I've been working with this startup since since 190 00:15:16.279 --> 00:15:20.200 March, and that was just through a lead from someone who bought my book. 191 00:15:20.720 --> 00:15:24.919 And since then, I've had two or three emails from other people who've 192 00:15:24.120 --> 00:15:28.360 discovered me through my book asking if I was available, and I've had to 193 00:15:28.360 --> 00:15:33.360 say no because I'm fully booked on this contract. So it's it's always nice 194 00:15:33.399 --> 00:15:35.840 to kind of have leads that I kind of have to say no to at 195 00:15:35.840 --> 00:15:39.840 this point, but hopefully I can work with in the future at some point. 196 00:15:41.120 --> 00:15:46.600 Yeah, I've I've had similar experiences, not with the I did write 197 00:15:46.600 --> 00:15:50.039 a book, but it was it was how to find a job. I've 198 00:15:50.399 --> 00:15:56.960 had that with screencast series and with the podcast where yeah, I just you 199 00:15:58.000 --> 00:16:02.120 know, I just mentioned on the show or have people come to me out 200 00:16:02.120 --> 00:16:06.440 of the blue, and yeah, it's it's been really interesting to see how 201 00:16:06.480 --> 00:16:10.759 that all works out. So yeah, I like, I like the idea 202 00:16:10.799 --> 00:16:15.360 of writing a book and demonstrating your technical expertise and having people recognize that and 203 00:16:15.399 --> 00:16:19.200 then you know, come along and say, oh, I'm I'm interested in 204 00:16:19.200 --> 00:16:23.720 what you can do, and yeah, exactly, I think it's the best 205 00:16:23.720 --> 00:16:26.519 way to kind of showcase your skills, to just build something. Then it's 206 00:16:26.559 --> 00:16:30.519 all in the public domain and it kind of also acts as an asset. 207 00:16:30.639 --> 00:16:33.879 So like, I mean, I don't I don't make a whole lot of 208 00:16:33.879 --> 00:16:37.759 money of the book sales, but it's a nice like cream at the end 209 00:16:37.799 --> 00:16:41.320 of the month that kind of adds on top of my freelance income. And 210 00:16:42.480 --> 00:16:47.480 yeah, it's just a great way to generate leads and stuff. So like, 211 00:16:47.519 --> 00:16:52.840 I always kind of planned that with my freelancing career, I would split 212 00:16:52.919 --> 00:16:56.840 my time between client work and my own projects. And that's why I have 213 00:16:57.039 --> 00:17:00.600 the reels and not why I could. That's why I have Scattergun dot Email, 214 00:17:00.600 --> 00:17:06.000 which is another SaaS product that I that I run. It's temporarily on 215 00:17:06.079 --> 00:17:08.160 pause. I really need to invest some time to bring it back. But 216 00:17:10.039 --> 00:17:11.759 yeah, that's why I have those things because those are the things that kind 217 00:17:11.759 --> 00:17:17.119 of I have complete control over. I don't need to make compromises to anyone, 218 00:17:17.559 --> 00:17:22.160 and it's very fulfilling to have that kind of stuff as well. I'm 219 00:17:22.240 --> 00:17:25.440 curious. I never knew you wrote a book. First of all. Awesome, 220 00:17:26.440 --> 00:17:30.119 right, I love it. I have so many questions. Yeah, 221 00:17:30.200 --> 00:17:36.640 go for it. Yeah, the book israelsonhot Wire Codex dot Com. Yeah, 222 00:17:36.640 --> 00:17:41.880 it's really cool. So, like, what what got you to build 223 00:17:41.960 --> 00:17:48.200 this specifically? Just like your mobile experience tran transitioning to rails, Like yeah, 224 00:17:48.359 --> 00:17:53.279 kind of. So when I was working on my first contract as a 225 00:17:53.279 --> 00:18:00.440 freelancer, I had a pretty steep learning of at the start because it was 226 00:18:00.480 --> 00:18:06.160 the first production rails app that I was kind of working on, uh for 227 00:18:06.200 --> 00:18:08.720 like for someone else. The only before that I'd only kind of worked on 228 00:18:08.759 --> 00:18:15.319 my own projects. So I realized that that like I'd done the rail tutorial 229 00:18:15.319 --> 00:18:22.279 by Michael Hartle and I found that it was a great Uh, it was 230 00:18:22.319 --> 00:18:26.720 great for the basics, but like that book, you only create two models 231 00:18:26.759 --> 00:18:30.119 by the end of the book. So it's like, because it focuses so 232 00:18:30.200 --> 00:18:34.880 much on the basics, it's not representative of a production rails app. And 233 00:18:34.920 --> 00:18:42.759 I found that next step was quite hard for me to take. So while 234 00:18:42.759 --> 00:18:45.480 I was on that first contract, and the idea just kind of popped into 235 00:18:45.480 --> 00:18:49.759 my head that there's loads of books that teach you how to make rails apps, 236 00:18:49.759 --> 00:18:52.839 loads of books that teach you how to make native apps. I've kind 237 00:18:52.839 --> 00:18:57.440 of got this unique blend of experience of all three where I've specialized in all 238 00:18:57.519 --> 00:19:03.400 three at various points. Turbonative was kind of a fairly new thing because this 239 00:19:03.480 --> 00:19:08.160 was mid mid twenty This was mid twenty twenty one, so Turbo Native was 240 00:19:08.200 --> 00:19:11.880 only about six months old. I was. I was also aware of turbolinks 241 00:19:12.039 --> 00:19:15.359 Native, which had been around for a while. It was on my radar 242 00:19:15.480 --> 00:19:19.960 even when I was a mobile developer, and I had petitioned for its use 243 00:19:21.519 --> 00:19:25.319 a number of times to my teams when I was a mobile developer and basically 244 00:19:25.359 --> 00:19:29.720 been told to in no uncertain terms to shut up because it was hybrid, 245 00:19:29.720 --> 00:19:33.359 and hybrid was a dirty word. So I thought, hang on, hang 246 00:19:33.400 --> 00:19:37.799 on, because I have to chime in on this because there is a dirty 247 00:19:37.799 --> 00:19:41.640 little secret, and that is is a lot of the apps that you use 248 00:19:41.720 --> 00:19:47.640 out there that are native apps, they pull in WebUI all over the place 249 00:19:48.559 --> 00:19:52.039 they do. And yeah, the other thing is that most of these fully 250 00:19:52.119 --> 00:19:56.960 native apps are also completely useless offline. Like people kind of say offline access 251 00:19:57.039 --> 00:20:00.759 is a big thing that kind of banned around for fullyen but I'm like, 252 00:20:00.400 --> 00:20:04.880 yeah, you know, most apps have worked on useless offline, like they 253 00:20:04.880 --> 00:20:10.400 won't do anything well or they build in So the thing that I'm thinking is 254 00:20:10.440 --> 00:20:14.119 like the video apps, so like you're what Hulu or Netflix or whatever, 255 00:20:14.920 --> 00:20:19.400 the only the only on offline functionality they really have is download this before you 256 00:20:19.440 --> 00:20:22.119 get on the airplane and that way you can watch it on your phone. 257 00:20:22.240 --> 00:20:26.400 Right, So it's very limited in scope on what it'll do. Yeah, 258 00:20:27.079 --> 00:20:33.039 once you're offline, Yeah exactly. But yeah, I thought, I thought, 259 00:20:33.440 --> 00:20:37.160 uh, yeah, here's a mad idea. I've only been working with 260 00:20:37.279 --> 00:20:40.920 rails for less than a here, but let's write a book on it. 261 00:20:42.400 --> 00:20:45.079 How hard could it be? Right? Yeah? How hard can it be? 262 00:20:45.799 --> 00:20:52.640 It? Depends on and his is like nine hundred pages. So yeah, 263 00:20:52.359 --> 00:20:56.440 I mean it was I love it. I love that premise, Like 264 00:20:56.160 --> 00:21:02.759 building the neighborhood marketplace like Craigslist or something thing that can't be easy to do, 265 00:21:02.960 --> 00:21:07.920 right, No, it's not easy, but I kind of like I 266 00:21:07.119 --> 00:21:12.039 learned best by doing so. I definitely wanted to teach how to build a 267 00:21:12.200 --> 00:21:17.680 product, and I needed a product that had scope for many things. And 268 00:21:17.720 --> 00:21:22.880 I just thought a product marketplace I can just like any any kind of feature, 269 00:21:22.920 --> 00:21:26.720 I can kind of bolt onto it in some way or another. So 270 00:21:27.880 --> 00:21:32.880 it was just a very good kind of premise to cover all the features and 271 00:21:32.960 --> 00:21:38.480 rails because covering all of the constituent frameworks like action, mailbox, active stories, 272 00:21:38.519 --> 00:21:41.000 all that, that was a non negotiable for me. I had to 273 00:21:41.039 --> 00:21:47.799 do all of them. So this was just a nice vehicle for that. 274 00:21:48.119 --> 00:21:52.720 And I mean too, you know, rails is like pushing the you know, 275 00:21:53.400 --> 00:21:59.440 build your next business right with rails? Yeah yeah right, And like 276 00:22:00.200 --> 00:22:03.559 selling something is like what everybody wants to do, right, yeah, exactly, 277 00:22:04.839 --> 00:22:07.599 So I think this is great, Like I love I'm curious, like, 278 00:22:07.799 --> 00:22:12.920 uh, you know, what what kind of design decisions do you make 279 00:22:12.960 --> 00:22:18.599 in the book for like the various things like do you choose to build your 280 00:22:18.640 --> 00:22:25.039 own authentication authorization? Uh? You know, yeah, so I was it 281 00:22:25.119 --> 00:22:27.400 is your own authentication authorization. I've kind of put that front and sent in 282 00:22:27.400 --> 00:22:33.720 the marketing materials as well. And again, I just wanted to teach how 283 00:22:33.759 --> 00:22:37.839 to build as much as possible. And I was only pulling in gems for 284 00:22:37.880 --> 00:22:47.240 very specific, very difficult problems because I find a lot of tutorials they kind 285 00:22:47.240 --> 00:22:52.160 of just skirt around the difficult problems. We're pulling in a gem and like 286 00:22:52.160 --> 00:22:55.680 like authentic, just just just use device and then it becomes a tutorials. 287 00:22:56.200 --> 00:22:59.559 That's what the heart of book does, is it pulls in device and then 288 00:22:59.599 --> 00:23:02.319 just moves on. Now it doesn't it teaches you. It teaches you your 289 00:23:02.359 --> 00:23:06.559 authentic, your own authentication. Yeah I need to be wrong about that. 290 00:23:07.200 --> 00:23:10.599 But a lot of tutorials they they just say, oh, just pull in 291 00:23:10.640 --> 00:23:15.440 this gem, pull in that gem for like device, pundit whatever, and 292 00:23:15.519 --> 00:23:19.559 they don't teach like the concepts. And in freelancing, I've just found that 293 00:23:19.599 --> 00:23:25.440 those because those concepts are not that widely thought, they're not applied very well, 294 00:23:25.799 --> 00:23:30.359 and people don't think about do I actually need a gem for this, 295 00:23:30.440 --> 00:23:33.119 and they just pull in a gem just because it's the thing that they always 296 00:23:33.119 --> 00:23:38.240 do, even if it's a very simple authorization premise that the product has, 297 00:23:38.400 --> 00:23:42.640 like oh it's authorization, we need pundit for that. So I was like, 298 00:23:42.720 --> 00:23:47.000 no, let's just build everything from scrat So like the only things I've 299 00:23:47.039 --> 00:23:49.759 used gems for, like things like paginations, I've got Paigey in there. 300 00:23:51.279 --> 00:23:56.480 I've got Sidekick obviously for background jobs. So yeah, just like very specific 301 00:23:56.519 --> 00:23:59.880 things. Actually, let me pull up the gem file right now. It's 302 00:23:59.880 --> 00:24:03.680 like, can tell you which are the only third party gems that I've pulled 303 00:24:03.720 --> 00:24:11.200 in here? Uh so credits doesn't count as third partys. Credits is now 304 00:24:11.279 --> 00:24:17.319 in rails, So I've got premailer rails, which is to inline your styles 305 00:24:17.960 --> 00:24:22.920 before action mailer blasts something out, so that kind of holds up styling on 306 00:24:22.960 --> 00:24:26.119 all the different mail clans. Got something called io country codes, which just 307 00:24:26.160 --> 00:24:30.720 makes it drop down easier for like a country drop down easier because it just 308 00:24:30.920 --> 00:24:37.839 kind of maps like a user friendly country name to the io code. Uh 309 00:24:37.039 --> 00:24:44.319 page for pagination s a w S s DK for S three, geocoder for 310 00:24:44.480 --> 00:24:49.319 geocoding local time to just to show like your which is a JavaScript thing to 311 00:24:49.359 --> 00:24:56.640 show local time based on where the user is browser to detect which browser it 312 00:24:56.799 --> 00:25:03.920 is from, uh, the user agent and email reply pausa from which is 313 00:25:03.000 --> 00:25:07.200 the GitHub gem to kind of you know, when you click reply on and 314 00:25:07.279 --> 00:25:10.880 email clients will kind of just put a lot of gunk in at the bottom. 315 00:25:11.319 --> 00:25:14.200 This kind of just makes it a bit easier to deal with which in 316 00:25:14.279 --> 00:25:18.559 action mailbox I needed. And apart from the sidekick and sidekit grown, yeah, 317 00:25:18.680 --> 00:25:22.640 that's it. Everything else is from scratch. So I have to ask 318 00:25:22.680 --> 00:25:29.039 because I mean, I'm working for a client right now that uses I mean 319 00:25:29.079 --> 00:25:36.759 you mentioned uh device pundit. I think they're using rollify right, and some 320 00:25:36.880 --> 00:25:41.440 of these ideas like rollify right as far as just the fundamental adding and you 321 00:25:41.519 --> 00:25:45.759 know, tracking if somebody has a role and if that role attaches to some 322 00:25:45.880 --> 00:25:49.359 other entity in your system, right, that seems relatively simple, punt. 323 00:25:49.400 --> 00:25:52.799 It seems like it does a whole bunch of stuff, And sometimes I feel 324 00:25:52.880 --> 00:25:56.440 like it gets in my way, and sometimes I feel like it, you 325 00:25:56.519 --> 00:26:00.559 know, it just kind of cleanly solves a problem. So how do you 326 00:26:00.680 --> 00:26:04.880 decide if something is in or out? And how do you decide if something 327 00:26:04.960 --> 00:26:11.400 is going to be worth the trouble of figuring out because some of these libraries 328 00:26:11.400 --> 00:26:15.599 have a learning curve and yeah, yeah, anyway, I'm rambling. But 329 00:26:15.519 --> 00:26:21.119 no, it's tricky. It's a hard question, and I don't have a 330 00:26:21.279 --> 00:26:26.440 clear answer because the best thing I can say is just experience. So when 331 00:26:26.480 --> 00:26:29.519 I was in my first job at a university, I had a really good 332 00:26:29.599 --> 00:26:32.839 mentor, so the ACELA and iOS developer back then, and I had a 333 00:26:32.920 --> 00:26:38.960 really good mentor and he kind of ingrained this deep dislike and disdain for dependencies 334 00:26:40.160 --> 00:26:42.920 in my brain. So and that has stuck with me, and it's something 335 00:26:44.079 --> 00:26:45.400 I'm actually I quite like. So I don't want to change it because I 336 00:26:45.640 --> 00:26:51.799 like that fact about myself. So I will not pull in a gem until 337 00:26:51.839 --> 00:26:55.480 I'm like really pushed against the wall and like I'm like, okay, now 338 00:26:55.559 --> 00:27:00.519 I really can't do this myself. I really shouldn't do this myself. Then 339 00:27:00.559 --> 00:27:03.039 I will pull in a dependency for it. Other than that, like I 340 00:27:03.119 --> 00:27:07.759 mean, I'll just write it myself, Like I don't know, just think 341 00:27:07.839 --> 00:27:11.559 some time. I mean, isn't it more effort and more trouble? It 342 00:27:12.160 --> 00:27:18.119 is, but it's also a lot more customizable and reusable. So like, 343 00:27:19.079 --> 00:27:23.240 so once I've done something like I do my own authentication, So once I 344 00:27:23.400 --> 00:27:30.359 have my authentication system, that code is reusable, so I don't extract it 345 00:27:30.400 --> 00:27:33.680 into the library. But in every project, I just copy paste out the 346 00:27:33.920 --> 00:27:40.680 relevant stuff and then customize it and customize it as the project needs. And 347 00:27:41.960 --> 00:27:45.559 yeah, I mean it may sound like like sacrilege, but it's it is 348 00:27:45.640 --> 00:27:49.920 a different mindset when you're kind of wrapping up some code as a black box 349 00:27:51.000 --> 00:27:52.759 library, because then it's kind of like its own entity and you need like 350 00:27:53.799 --> 00:27:59.960 you need kind of ports to kind of interact with it. But if it's 351 00:28:00.200 --> 00:28:03.240 just code that lives as part of your application, you don't need to package 352 00:28:03.279 --> 00:28:07.319 it up in any way. You don't need to think about like, oh, 353 00:28:07.400 --> 00:28:10.880 what if the user wants to customize this that or the other thing is 354 00:28:10.920 --> 00:28:15.240 you just change the code right because it's within your application. So I'm a 355 00:28:15.359 --> 00:28:19.240 big fan. Yeah, I'm a big fan of just writing reusable code in 356 00:28:19.319 --> 00:28:22.839 that way, and I do it in like it helps my client work is 357 00:28:22.880 --> 00:28:26.559 all. Very often I'll pull things out of my own projects and put them 358 00:28:26.720 --> 00:28:30.240 into client project just because I've solved this problem, why do I need to 359 00:28:30.279 --> 00:28:34.440 solve it again? So like now I have like an authorization system that I 360 00:28:34.559 --> 00:28:40.599 built for the for the book, and I'll just build a similar system for 361 00:28:40.759 --> 00:28:44.720 any other project. So like for me personally, I only need to build 362 00:28:44.759 --> 00:28:48.119 it once and then I just need to tweak it to fit any other project. 363 00:28:48.799 --> 00:28:52.079 And for me, that's a lot less risky than pulling in a dependency 364 00:28:52.119 --> 00:28:55.839 that I don't control. Yeah, I'm I'm going to chime in on this 365 00:28:55.960 --> 00:29:00.079 a little bit. So the the last one that I pulled in that I 366 00:29:00.400 --> 00:29:07.839 kind of had this with was actually written by Dave Kimura's action Off jem and 367 00:29:07.960 --> 00:29:11.160 right, I needed to tweak the layout, and I, you know, 368 00:29:11.519 --> 00:29:15.839 I want to add a user profile, which I just did by adding another 369 00:29:15.920 --> 00:29:22.079 model to my system. But as I got into that just a little bit 370 00:29:22.160 --> 00:29:27.680 more here and there, what I found was that because I was thinking, 371 00:29:27.759 --> 00:29:30.920 hey, I'm a little bit gun shy about Hey, this is a security 372 00:29:32.599 --> 00:29:36.519 system on my app, right, and since I'm not a security expert, 373 00:29:36.559 --> 00:29:40.079 I don't know if I necessarily want to be the one writing this and responsible 374 00:29:40.119 --> 00:29:41.759 for it. But at the same time, you go look at action off 375 00:29:41.799 --> 00:29:48.079 and it's relatively simple, right, and so it's definitely something that I could 376 00:29:48.119 --> 00:29:52.000 build myself if I wanted to. It's just that he has a whole bunch 377 00:29:52.000 --> 00:29:56.079 of other people looking at it and solving some of the problems that I might 378 00:29:56.279 --> 00:30:00.839 cause myself, and he spent a lot more time looking into the issues that 379 00:30:00.880 --> 00:30:03.640 are there. And so that's one reason why I'm sitting there going, maybe 380 00:30:03.680 --> 00:30:07.559 I should, you know, use somebody else's system. The other thing though, 381 00:30:07.680 --> 00:30:08.960 is that, yeah, then it's okay, I've got to tweak the 382 00:30:10.000 --> 00:30:11.599 layouts. So I've got to tweak this, I've got to tweak that. 383 00:30:11.680 --> 00:30:15.759 And so there's the learning curve of learning how to use the gem that for 384 00:30:15.920 --> 00:30:19.279 my time might take up just as much time as writing it myself. And 385 00:30:19.359 --> 00:30:22.160 I guess I don't actually know that, and I don't know how you know 386 00:30:22.279 --> 00:30:26.640 that, But those are the trade offs that I'm looking at, Right, 387 00:30:26.839 --> 00:30:30.160 is am I going to cause a problem if I write it myself? Or 388 00:30:30.200 --> 00:30:33.400 am I going to leave something open that I shouldn't? And then the other 389 00:30:33.599 --> 00:30:36.640 thing is is, yeah, you know, for my time, right, 390 00:30:37.119 --> 00:30:41.160 if I drop pundit in or you know, rollify or something else, you 391 00:30:41.240 --> 00:30:45.279 know, how do I do that. And then the last thing is is 392 00:30:45.359 --> 00:30:48.759 sometimes I pull in these gems because I have a client that's using it and 393 00:30:48.839 --> 00:30:51.559 I need to understand it and so I can go play with it over here 394 00:30:51.559 --> 00:30:56.000 in my own little sandbox. Yeah, exactly, those those trade offs are 395 00:30:56.200 --> 00:31:03.119 They're all really good questions to ask, and it's there's no like straightforward answer 396 00:31:03.200 --> 00:31:07.119 to any of that. It just comes down to like judgment. So actually, 397 00:31:07.240 --> 00:31:11.000 let me read out a quote that I've put in the in the coda 398 00:31:11.200 --> 00:31:19.279 of my book. It's a quote from Nate Hopkins. So yeah, yeah, 399 00:31:19.319 --> 00:31:23.440 he tweeted this a while ago. Now. He says every additional gem 400 00:31:23.559 --> 00:31:29.559 dependency adds friction to upgrading rails. Be sure to apply a healthy dose of 401 00:31:29.599 --> 00:31:33.920 scrutiny to all gems before including them in your projects. You also increase the 402 00:31:33.000 --> 00:31:40.119 surface area of several risks unexpected changes to native behavior, conflicts between gems, 403 00:31:40.440 --> 00:31:45.599 degraded performance, weekend security, and these risks. These risks compound as you 404 00:31:45.720 --> 00:31:49.440 drift further from the latest framework release. So I thought that was just a 405 00:31:49.519 --> 00:31:53.720 good way of looking at it. It just depends on, yes, like 406 00:31:53.799 --> 00:31:57.880 the use case or what you're trading off against. And I just find that 407 00:31:59.079 --> 00:32:05.680 very often you can accomplish quite a lot with just good object oriented programming, 408 00:32:05.839 --> 00:32:12.319 like authorization is one of those things where with these gems like pundit and I 409 00:32:12.400 --> 00:32:15.559 think can can, can and action policy and that the good gems, but 410 00:32:16.359 --> 00:32:20.839 I just find that they go too far into like meta programming, when all 411 00:32:20.880 --> 00:32:25.920 you need is good object oriented programming. And I think the absolute game changer 412 00:32:27.400 --> 00:32:31.200 has been something quite simple, which is actors support current attributes. Just the 413 00:32:31.319 --> 00:32:37.160 fact that you can get current dot user now from anywhere in the inner app. 414 00:32:37.720 --> 00:32:42.599 Earlier it was you probably have a current underscore user method that's only available 415 00:32:42.599 --> 00:32:45.880 in your controllers. If you're trying to do like authorization stuff in your model, 416 00:32:45.519 --> 00:32:49.319 just getting hold of the current user might might be a little tricky, 417 00:32:49.359 --> 00:32:55.119 which is why you had like metaprogramming techniques, which gems like pundit of kind 418 00:32:55.160 --> 00:33:01.039 of popularized. But now that you can get you use a quite easily from 419 00:33:01.079 --> 00:33:05.319 anywhere. It's a fairly simple thing. But I think it's also made a 420 00:33:05.519 --> 00:33:13.480 huge difference to how how much you can simplify things like authorization. Yep. 421 00:33:13.960 --> 00:33:24.440 So I guess the other question is do you then favor gems like so you 422 00:33:24.480 --> 00:33:29.799 know, back to authorization or authentication for a minute, right, do you 423 00:33:29.880 --> 00:33:37.799 favor things like maybe authentication zero, where instead of it using an engine like 424 00:33:38.279 --> 00:33:45.240 device or action off, does you just do a rails generate and it drops 425 00:33:45.359 --> 00:33:50.519 the code, right, It generates all the code into your thing, into 426 00:33:50.599 --> 00:33:53.240 your app, right, And then I mean, if you pull the gem 427 00:33:53.279 --> 00:33:58.599 out, it's still gonna work because it really all it did was just effectively 428 00:33:58.640 --> 00:34:01.960 write that code for you. Yeah, exactly. So the client I'm working 429 00:34:02.000 --> 00:34:06.839 with at the moment, we've used authentication zero. It was done before I 430 00:34:06.960 --> 00:34:09.159 started, so I didn't have any influence on that, and it's the first 431 00:34:09.159 --> 00:34:15.159 time I've used authentication zero actually, and I recommend it wholeheartedly to anyone. 432 00:34:16.000 --> 00:34:20.800 It's an approach that I affletely love. Because the codes all in your app, 433 00:34:20.800 --> 00:34:23.239 you can modify it as you choose to. Like, we've actually had 434 00:34:23.280 --> 00:34:28.960 to modify the authentication system a little bit because one of the requirements were we 435 00:34:29.239 --> 00:34:34.440 needed Google login, but we also like if someone had signed up using email 436 00:34:34.519 --> 00:34:39.679 and password and then they tried to sign and with Google, we wanted them 437 00:34:39.760 --> 00:34:44.079 to kind of get into the same account, Like we didn't want Google signing 438 00:34:44.119 --> 00:34:47.480 to create a new account, and that was also some custom logic that we 439 00:34:47.559 --> 00:34:52.119 had to do, but because all the code lived in our app, it 440 00:34:52.239 --> 00:34:54.760 was fairly easy to do. We didn't need to jump through any hoops. 441 00:34:54.760 --> 00:35:00.960 All I did was modify a controller and done like that. Like the amount 442 00:35:00.000 --> 00:35:05.199 of times I try to wrangle device to do something I wanted slightly custom and 443 00:35:05.920 --> 00:35:08.159 felt like hitting my head against the wall. I mean, this is much 444 00:35:08.239 --> 00:35:13.760 preferable to me. Yeah, that's that. That in my experience, is 445 00:35:14.000 --> 00:35:16.320 where I run into things. Yeah, it's like, oh, I'm deviating 446 00:35:16.440 --> 00:35:22.679 from how device thinks about the world, and so you know, I feel 447 00:35:22.760 --> 00:35:25.519 like I've got my arms stuck in the gears of this machine and I can't 448 00:35:25.559 --> 00:35:31.119 quite pull it out in order to Yeah, what about stuff like so you 449 00:35:31.199 --> 00:35:35.079 said the Google logins, you do you just reach for omniof for that or 450 00:35:35.320 --> 00:35:38.920 yeah, right now omnioth Yeah, Like that's again, it's a it's it's 451 00:35:38.960 --> 00:35:44.880 a difficult, small surface area problem. So that's the kind of thing where 452 00:35:44.920 --> 00:35:49.480 I would reach for a gem, because yeah, like gems are kind of 453 00:35:49.920 --> 00:35:53.239 cover quite a large surface area, and then your app kind of becomes heavily 454 00:35:53.320 --> 00:35:57.440 dependent on the Let's see, like if you build an app with device. 455 00:35:58.000 --> 00:36:00.960 You're never ever ripping device out of there. It's there for life. It's 456 00:36:00.039 --> 00:36:04.559 like for the lifetime of the app. Right. I will only pull in 457 00:36:04.679 --> 00:36:07.639 gems like that when I'm like absolutely one hundred percent show and I'm really really 458 00:36:07.719 --> 00:36:12.000 thought it through and I'm like, this is the only way it's a worthy 459 00:36:12.119 --> 00:36:15.480 risk, And then I'll pull in a gem that my app like literally will 460 00:36:15.519 --> 00:36:19.599 fall apart without. Other than that, I like small service area gems. 461 00:36:21.119 --> 00:36:28.440 Cool, Valentino, I hijacked your higher level question. I'm sorry, No, 462 00:36:28.599 --> 00:36:31.320 it's all good. I mean, it's an important, important discussion to 463 00:36:31.400 --> 00:36:37.039 make any time you're introducing the dependency because it is just like a snowball effect, 464 00:36:37.719 --> 00:36:40.679 you know, if you ever want to remove it, it's a pain. 465 00:36:42.360 --> 00:36:46.960 Yeah. Change, Well, the last couple of contracts I've worked, 466 00:36:47.000 --> 00:36:52.159 we've worked on upgrading rails and that is always painful, and it's always the 467 00:36:52.280 --> 00:36:57.119 dependency gems that you get, which was the other point that I usually made. 468 00:36:58.599 --> 00:37:00.760 Yeah, it's it's it's tricky. It's one of those things I think 469 00:37:00.800 --> 00:37:06.159 you get better at with experience. Like just my kind of take on it. 470 00:37:06.440 --> 00:37:13.320 It's I'm not against dependencies. I'm definitely not one for like not invented 471 00:37:13.360 --> 00:37:17.880 here syndrome or anything like that. But I'm also fairly skeptical of dependencies, 472 00:37:19.320 --> 00:37:22.039 and I just think like two or three times before I pull anything. And 473 00:37:22.119 --> 00:37:25.639 so it's not like I'm against I just give it a lot of thought before 474 00:37:25.679 --> 00:37:31.280 I pull in a gem. Right, did you have any follow on to 475 00:37:31.400 --> 00:37:43.519 this, Valentino? I did. I mean I'm often torn on like the 476 00:37:43.639 --> 00:37:47.199 dependency like hell that people reference, Like there are a lot of like great 477 00:37:47.320 --> 00:37:52.480 well built gems that like you can just throw in and trust that are going 478 00:37:52.559 --> 00:37:57.719 to work long term, and so it's like it's hard to know what those 479 00:37:57.760 --> 00:38:02.480 are if you're not familiar with them. Yeah, and so I think it's 480 00:38:02.480 --> 00:38:06.000 a good rule of thumb to just like not introduce it if you don't have 481 00:38:06.159 --> 00:38:08.440 to. But at the same time, it's like whatever you build, you're 482 00:38:08.440 --> 00:38:13.880 going to have to maintain. So like whether you're not maintaining it or somebody 483 00:38:13.920 --> 00:38:17.480 else isn't maintaining it, like, does it matter. Yeah, it's true. 484 00:38:17.519 --> 00:38:21.920 And I think also if you're pulling in like a gem that's not like 485 00:38:22.199 --> 00:38:24.760 super popular or something like that, I think it's also important to just have 486 00:38:27.159 --> 00:38:30.800 a high level understanding of what the gem does. So, like if I'm 487 00:38:30.840 --> 00:38:36.039 pulling in a GEM where I'm not completely clear about how it solves the problem 488 00:38:36.719 --> 00:38:40.440 that I want to solve, and if it's not like super popular or anything 489 00:38:40.519 --> 00:38:45.079 like that, I'll always dive into the source code and try to understand it, 490 00:38:45.920 --> 00:38:49.639 and if I can understand and are happy with it, I'll pull it 491 00:38:49.719 --> 00:38:54.199 in. Or otherwise I might just take inspiration from their approach and write it 492 00:38:54.280 --> 00:39:00.239 myself. Like quite recently, for the client I'm working with, we we 493 00:39:00.360 --> 00:39:04.079 needed to have like some kind of d bounds logic inside kick. So like 494 00:39:04.119 --> 00:39:07.559 if you try to queue up the same job with the same arguments like two 495 00:39:07.639 --> 00:39:12.199 or three times in quick succession, it should only it should only queue up 496 00:39:12.280 --> 00:39:16.320 once. So like if you try to queue up a job like ten times 497 00:39:16.400 --> 00:39:22.039 in the in two minutes, it only it only executes once. So I 498 00:39:22.119 --> 00:39:24.360 went looking for a plug in for this, and I found one, but 499 00:39:24.760 --> 00:39:30.039 I was I don't I firstly dove into the source code because it wasn't a 500 00:39:30.119 --> 00:39:32.480 very popular jam, it was not something i'd heard before. It was it 501 00:39:32.480 --> 00:39:37.840 didn't have a very high star account or anything like that, and I was 502 00:39:37.920 --> 00:39:39.639 doing a bunch of stuff that I didn't quite understand it was running some a 503 00:39:39.760 --> 00:39:44.519 LUA script on Reddish and things like that, and I'm like, yeah, 504 00:39:44.519 --> 00:39:47.519 I'm not sure, not sure about this one. So I spent one day 505 00:39:47.679 --> 00:39:53.360 and just kind of took a little bit of inspiration from their approach and built 506 00:39:53.400 --> 00:39:59.280 out a super simple solution myself in like I don't three or four hours or 507 00:39:59.320 --> 00:40:02.400 something. And now we own that solution, so we need to tweak it. 508 00:40:02.719 --> 00:40:07.000 We can. It lives in the lip folder of our own app. 509 00:40:07.719 --> 00:40:12.360 Other developers can just open that up, read it, understand it, and 510 00:40:13.079 --> 00:40:15.840 that's it, rather than hiding away in a gem that nobody understands. Yeah, 511 00:40:15.880 --> 00:40:19.519 there's a lot to be said there, right, Like, you know, 512 00:40:19.599 --> 00:40:22.440 you can still package it locally, like it is a separate project. 513 00:40:22.119 --> 00:40:28.960 Yeah, like use packwork or you know, something like that, just to 514 00:40:29.079 --> 00:40:34.360 keep things separate in casey, you know, I feel like the most common 515 00:40:35.440 --> 00:40:37.079 use cases are well, like you know, we want other people to be 516 00:40:37.119 --> 00:40:39.960 able to contribute to it, right, and that's what the value of the 517 00:40:40.039 --> 00:40:45.280 gem brings. But you know, it's not guaranteed to do that. But 518 00:40:45.159 --> 00:40:49.079 I feel like if you just keep it abstract enough, like you know, 519 00:40:49.239 --> 00:40:52.480 it solves most the cases in the long term. Yeah, but that's the 520 00:40:52.559 --> 00:40:57.519 trade off too, right, is if it's too abstract, then it loses 521 00:40:58.320 --> 00:41:01.159 utility, but if it's specific, it also loses utility. So you've kind 522 00:41:01.199 --> 00:41:07.000 of got to find that sweet spot too. I think a good roos like 523 00:41:07.159 --> 00:41:12.679 that's how are you going? I was gonna transition to something different? Guess 524 00:41:12.719 --> 00:41:15.360 I'll just I'll just wrap up this kind of I think a good rule of 525 00:41:15.440 --> 00:41:19.760 time is like, could I build this myself in four to six hours? 526 00:41:20.320 --> 00:41:22.159 If you could, it's probably building it yourself. If it's gonna if it's 527 00:41:22.159 --> 00:41:25.960 gonna take longer than then the gem probably makes a lot more sense. Yep, 528 00:41:27.440 --> 00:41:30.119 that's a good rule of thumb. Uh. Yeah, I was gonna 529 00:41:30.440 --> 00:41:35.239 transition like because you know, you tackle hot wire you know specifically here, 530 00:41:35.639 --> 00:41:40.280 uh, and you dive deep into turbo natives and and that whole aspect of 531 00:41:40.639 --> 00:41:45.599 you know, mobile application development if you want to call it that for real, 532 00:41:46.440 --> 00:41:50.840 you know, how is your experience like setting that up? Like what 533 00:41:50.920 --> 00:41:53.519 do you think of the turbo native framework as somebody who previously worked in the 534 00:41:53.800 --> 00:42:00.119 you know, mobile on both sides realms? You know, how does the 535 00:42:00.199 --> 00:42:07.920 developer experience like equate in in rails and interbo native hurt someone's feelings answering this, 536 00:42:07.880 --> 00:42:10.360 No, I don't think so. Actually I quite enjoyed it, to 537 00:42:10.440 --> 00:42:15.679 be honest. I think it's it's a great approach just because it's kind of 538 00:42:15.840 --> 00:42:20.880 like, uh, a little bit in this world, a little bit in 539 00:42:20.960 --> 00:42:24.360 that world. So like your navigation and stuff is fully native, so you're 540 00:42:24.400 --> 00:42:30.360 not you're not fighting against the platform you're on. So you're still writing Swift, 541 00:42:30.360 --> 00:42:36.079 you're still Writingcotland. There's there's no there's no escaping that. It's just 542 00:42:36.719 --> 00:42:42.880 instead of writing the content of the screen using native views, you render some 543 00:42:43.039 --> 00:42:47.400 HTM on CSS instead, and you kind of and both iOS and Android have 544 00:42:49.239 --> 00:42:53.960 have native APIs to communicate to and from JavaScript, so that that's what Strata 545 00:42:54.079 --> 00:42:57.960 does. It just kind of uses those native APIs, gives you an abstraction 546 00:42:58.079 --> 00:43:01.440 layer to send messages back forth from your web app to the native code, 547 00:43:01.920 --> 00:43:07.800 so you can like render fully native components around your web views. So it 548 00:43:08.000 --> 00:43:14.760 kind of just upsto the fidelity a little bit. And let's say you have 549 00:43:14.920 --> 00:43:17.719 like one screen while your app, where apps users spend most of the time, 550 00:43:19.000 --> 00:43:22.400 you can always kind of build that one screen fully natively and then leave 551 00:43:22.440 --> 00:43:28.239 the rest to be web views. So as an approach, I really like 552 00:43:28.360 --> 00:43:32.519 it. The developer experience is obviously it's not without its challenges because you're kind 553 00:43:32.559 --> 00:43:37.719 of working in JavaScript as well, so debugging JavaScript and mobile can be a 554 00:43:37.760 --> 00:43:42.360 bit painful at times. So there is that, But then you're always going 555 00:43:42.400 --> 00:43:45.360 to have some friction with this kind of approach. But on the whole, 556 00:43:45.440 --> 00:43:51.960 I think the amount of time and money you save is huge. And I 557 00:43:52.039 --> 00:43:55.679 gave a talk at some conferences last year called native apps are dead? Long 558 00:43:55.760 --> 00:44:01.440 Live native apps? I think the friendly are we? Uh? I think 559 00:44:01.480 --> 00:44:07.079 friendly RB have put a YouTube video out of this talk, and that was 560 00:44:07.119 --> 00:44:10.719 the whole premise of the talk is that here's a really great way to build 561 00:44:10.760 --> 00:44:15.559 hybrid apps without kind of fighting against the platform, still having access to all 562 00:44:15.639 --> 00:44:23.000 the native features and just like uh, leaning on the web to reduce your 563 00:44:23.079 --> 00:44:27.559 work. Really so I'm I'm curious, like what does a what does a 564 00:44:27.599 --> 00:44:31.880 communication layer look like for the JavaScript to native like aspect of it? Like 565 00:44:32.000 --> 00:44:35.519 let's say you wanted to, like, you know, render a native like 566 00:44:35.679 --> 00:44:40.320 camera component or something like that, right, Like how does that like translate 567 00:44:40.559 --> 00:44:46.320 to like the website. So that's where where strata comes in so you'll have 568 00:44:46.440 --> 00:44:51.559 to write some native code to accomplish that. So like for the way Strata 569 00:44:51.639 --> 00:44:58.559 works is it's a it's a subset of stimulus, so it's actually subclasses a 570 00:44:58.719 --> 00:45:02.480 stimulus controller to another class called bridge component. So that's kind of like the 571 00:45:02.559 --> 00:45:09.480 main centerpiece of Strata. So you would subclass bridge component on the web and 572 00:45:10.119 --> 00:45:15.199 you'd kind of write some logic for whatever camera thing that you want to do, 573 00:45:15.400 --> 00:45:17.880 and then when that component connects to the dorm, it will send a 574 00:45:17.960 --> 00:45:22.679 message with whatever you've defined in that in that component to your native code. 575 00:45:23.199 --> 00:45:27.719 And then you have to have like a counterpart components. If you have a 576 00:45:27.800 --> 00:45:30.400 camera component on the web, you have to have a camera component in native 577 00:45:30.719 --> 00:45:35.159 in the native apps as well, which is like a fully native Swift or 578 00:45:35.159 --> 00:45:38.199 a Cottland class. So that class will receive the message that your web app 579 00:45:38.360 --> 00:45:42.760 has sent and then that can do whatever native thing it needs to do to 580 00:45:42.920 --> 00:45:46.280 make whatever you want happen. And then to go back to go backwards again, 581 00:45:46.480 --> 00:45:50.760 like you would send a message to the web app to like kind of 582 00:45:51.199 --> 00:45:55.360 click an element or or hid an element or something like that in the WebView. 583 00:45:55.840 --> 00:45:59.559 So that that way you can have like a you can have like a 584 00:45:59.599 --> 00:46:02.039 fully in native button that's just a proxy for like a web element, so 585 00:46:02.119 --> 00:46:06.519 you can have like in your navigation bar, you can have like a login 586 00:46:06.599 --> 00:46:09.719 button that's fully native, but all it's doing actually under the hood is clicking 587 00:46:09.920 --> 00:46:16.159 a hidden log in link on your web view. I see, I mean 588 00:46:16.199 --> 00:46:23.559 it sounds. It sounds very similar to React Native in the bridging way. 589 00:46:24.480 --> 00:46:28.400 I don't know a whole lot about React Native, but I think it's just 590 00:46:28.480 --> 00:46:31.760 a different philosophy. Where React Native you're writing JavaScript, but the views that 591 00:46:31.800 --> 00:46:38.239 are rendered are all fully native views. With Devonative, you're rendering web content 592 00:46:39.119 --> 00:46:43.079 for the most fun I say, yeah, it's a different bridge. It 593 00:46:43.559 --> 00:46:49.400 does use the JavaScript core bridge on iOS. Yeah, but the way it 594 00:46:49.480 --> 00:46:53.079 communicates with your app because it's a web app is different from how it communicates 595 00:46:53.159 --> 00:46:59.639 with a turbative apps or not a terminator React native app because the React native 596 00:46:59.679 --> 00:47:05.119 app of the logic is running on your phone using JavaScript and then interacting with 597 00:47:05.280 --> 00:47:08.360 the native views, and so it is a little different. I can see 598 00:47:08.400 --> 00:47:15.599 how that would make for a better experience to run native from a developer standpoint. 599 00:47:15.679 --> 00:47:19.519 I don't know from a user standpoint, but dependent on the app. 600 00:47:20.199 --> 00:47:22.960 Yeah, I think, I like, with any technology, can you can 601 00:47:23.039 --> 00:47:27.119 build good apps so that you can build bad apps with this? I mean, 602 00:47:27.320 --> 00:47:30.079 I've been using Hey for email pretty much ever since it came out, 603 00:47:30.199 --> 00:47:34.920 and I'm perfectly happy with their app, and their app is probably one of 604 00:47:34.920 --> 00:47:38.880 the flag bearers for termor native. But yeah, it's not. It's not 605 00:47:39.000 --> 00:47:44.119 without its problems, and it can be a lot to deal with sometimes. 606 00:47:44.159 --> 00:47:46.159 So like, actually, when I released the update to my book, I 607 00:47:46.239 --> 00:47:50.639 announced as part of that update that the second edition, which will which I'll 608 00:47:50.679 --> 00:47:53.360 probably start working on next year, so it's still a little ways away. 609 00:47:54.440 --> 00:47:57.800 I'm going to remove all the native stuff from it. It's going to be 610 00:47:58.079 --> 00:48:06.559 PWA's all the way, just because they run Yeah, yeah hopefully, but 611 00:48:07.280 --> 00:48:14.360 no, the I like that very much, So okay, just making sure 612 00:48:14.719 --> 00:48:20.719 yeah monopolease right, Well, just just to throw it in. Within the 613 00:48:20.800 --> 00:48:24.159 next week or so, we have an episode coming out from Bruce Lawson and 614 00:48:24.280 --> 00:48:31.519 he talks about the open Web initiatives and how a lot of the yeah PWA 615 00:48:31.599 --> 00:48:37.239 stuff doesn't work on Apple and why and yeah, he he goes after pretty 616 00:48:37.280 --> 00:48:43.880 hard. Anyway. Yeah, Apple's not been covering themselves in in glory recently, 617 00:48:44.119 --> 00:48:45.639 so yeah, yeah, we'd love to see what happens there. But 618 00:48:46.320 --> 00:48:51.039 yeah, my reasoning for it is for removing the native stuff is that I've 619 00:48:51.119 --> 00:48:54.400 got both my feet and the web world. I haven't worked on a production 620 00:48:54.639 --> 00:48:59.679 Android code based since twenty seventeen, and a production Alos code based in twenty 621 00:48:59.760 --> 00:49:05.079 nine teen, and it's just getting too difficult for one person to maintain all 622 00:49:05.159 --> 00:49:09.199 this stuff, especially in an educational resource where I kind of need to know 623 00:49:09.320 --> 00:49:15.199 my shit a little bit. It's it's too stressful and too exhausting. And 624 00:49:15.920 --> 00:49:22.119 PWA is when they work Big Asterisk there are pretty damn good, So I'm 625 00:49:22.159 --> 00:49:25.000 just going to focus on those instead. Right now, RAILS eight is supposed 626 00:49:25.000 --> 00:49:30.360 to be focused on making it work. It is. Yeah, They're supposed 627 00:49:30.400 --> 00:49:34.599 to be a new sub framework called action Notifier as well in RAILS eight, 628 00:49:34.679 --> 00:49:38.960 which is going to be like web based push notifications. So yeah, with 629 00:49:39.079 --> 00:49:44.599 all that stuff, I just feel that I don't need to have a native 630 00:49:44.760 --> 00:49:49.280 section anymore. And like anyone who buys the book at any point will always 631 00:49:49.360 --> 00:49:52.119 have access to this first edition with the native stuff, so it will always 632 00:49:52.159 --> 00:49:55.840 live on if anyone wants. Like, the basics are never going to change, 633 00:49:55.920 --> 00:49:59.920 right, The basics of demnative and strata are never going to change. 634 00:50:00.039 --> 00:50:05.760 That's all I cover in the book. So hopefully it will still have value 635 00:50:05.800 --> 00:50:09.559 to people. But yeah, like it can be a bit much for one 636 00:50:09.639 --> 00:50:14.599 person to try and do all three. So are you targeting Rails eight then 637 00:50:14.639 --> 00:50:16.920 in the next edition? Yeah, I will, Yeah, it's it's it's 638 00:50:16.960 --> 00:50:20.599 gonna be. It's gonna be a paid upgrade. For that reason, I 639 00:50:20.679 --> 00:50:24.880 probably won't start working on it until after Rails eight is out. I haven't 640 00:50:24.920 --> 00:50:30.000 really got any plans for it or anything at the moment, so all I 641 00:50:30.119 --> 00:50:35.239 know is it'll target Rails eight, it'll target whatever new stuff comes out in 642 00:50:35.360 --> 00:50:38.000 the framework. It'll be p w as, and it'll be a paid upgrade. 643 00:50:39.920 --> 00:50:45.239 Cool. I just wanted to call it, I love your little written 644 00:50:45.320 --> 00:50:52.360 by a human tag. You're not. You're not the first person to compliment. 645 00:50:53.519 --> 00:51:00.280 I actually loved nice cheeky thing it was. Yeah, I enjoyed putting 646 00:51:00.320 --> 00:51:10.199 that in there. That's funny. You have to specify these days. You 647 00:51:10.360 --> 00:51:14.000 got to. I mean, how else are you gonna know? Yeah? 648 00:51:19.360 --> 00:51:22.880 All right, well, anything else that we want to go after on this 649 00:51:22.159 --> 00:51:28.639 or look at Chuck, you you've hat you've had some time with my book? 650 00:51:28.760 --> 00:51:34.639 Do you have any I'm just blatantly asking for compliments, you have anything, 651 00:51:37.480 --> 00:51:42.960 So, to be perfectly honest, I started reading it. I mean, 652 00:51:44.400 --> 00:51:46.960 I have to say that this is like the busiest season of my life 653 00:51:47.039 --> 00:51:54.079 ever with Mike. So my kids are finishing up school this week. I'm 654 00:51:54.239 --> 00:51:59.119 the vice chair of the Utah County Republican Party and we're trying to push candidates 655 00:51:59.159 --> 00:52:01.480 over the line. So I've been doing all of that and then I picked 656 00:52:01.559 --> 00:52:06.119 up a contract and the contract is for forty hours a week, like just 657 00:52:06.320 --> 00:52:08.800 to build forty hours a week, and so that's a ton of time. 658 00:52:08.920 --> 00:52:13.159 So I haven't had a ton of time to get into it. I have 659 00:52:14.280 --> 00:52:20.119 gotten through the first bit, I have to say, like the deployment section, 660 00:52:20.199 --> 00:52:22.559 because you talked about deployment here and I just kind of skimmed it because 661 00:52:24.519 --> 00:52:32.960 I deploy using camal To SoC But you know, the setup was fairly good, 662 00:52:34.039 --> 00:52:37.239 and to be honest, some of this, some of this was stuff 663 00:52:37.280 --> 00:52:39.199 that you know was like, oh, I think I kind of knew that, 664 00:52:39.800 --> 00:52:43.840 right, and you kind of explicitly draw it out and point at it, 665 00:52:43.960 --> 00:52:49.199 and so that was helpful as well. And so Yeah, so now 666 00:52:49.280 --> 00:52:51.960 I'm just getting into Okay, I want to build the app that I want 667 00:52:52.000 --> 00:52:58.000 to build. You know, I just barely started creating the iOS app part 668 00:52:58.079 --> 00:53:04.920 of it because I do what I want is and just to kind of give 669 00:53:04.960 --> 00:53:08.000 people an idea, what I'm doing is I'm walking through the book and I'm 670 00:53:08.039 --> 00:53:14.199 building the next version of top end devs. And so because effectively what I 671 00:53:14.239 --> 00:53:16.199 want to build is I keep telling people I want to build the Netflix of 672 00:53:16.360 --> 00:53:22.360 programmers. Right. And it's a little different from kind of what Egghead or 673 00:53:23.840 --> 00:53:27.639 plural Site or some of the others do, where you know, it's like, 674 00:53:27.719 --> 00:53:30.840 hey, go pick up this course. What I want to do is 675 00:53:30.880 --> 00:53:37.480 I want to have a number of series kind of like drifting Ruby or rails 676 00:53:37.559 --> 00:53:39.519 casts or something like that, but for different technologies, right, And so 677 00:53:40.000 --> 00:53:45.280 I would love to have an ongoing series on like hot Wire, have an 678 00:53:45.280 --> 00:53:49.360 ongoing series on just JavaScript fundamentals, right, and so every week you get 679 00:53:49.360 --> 00:53:52.679 a new video so that you can go pick up you know, basic DevOps 680 00:53:54.960 --> 00:53:58.840 some of the other frameworks that we cover on the network, so React or 681 00:53:58.920 --> 00:54:01.800 Angular, right, and so you kind of kind of get the idea where 682 00:54:01.800 --> 00:54:06.800 I'm going. But then the other thing I'd like to do is create sort 683 00:54:06.840 --> 00:54:12.559 of longer form content that's more I guess creative than technical. And so then 684 00:54:12.639 --> 00:54:21.320 it's you know, we have documentaries or maybe an audio what do they call 685 00:54:21.440 --> 00:54:25.800 them, like an audio drama right where you have anyway. I'd love to 686 00:54:25.840 --> 00:54:31.760 have a podcast where people are actually acting right, and so you know, 687 00:54:32.440 --> 00:54:37.119 you get some comedy out of how a team runs right, and you have 688 00:54:37.360 --> 00:54:43.239 just that guy right, that's anyway. So those kinds of things I kind 689 00:54:43.280 --> 00:54:45.760 of envision, and so you know, I want to build a platform that 690 00:54:45.840 --> 00:54:52.960 looks more like Netflix and less like like plural site, if that makes sense. 691 00:54:53.039 --> 00:54:57.639 And we still have the courses, right, so you could still go 692 00:54:57.719 --> 00:55:00.440 through a course and watch Okay, here's the fifteen minute video on how to 693 00:55:00.480 --> 00:55:04.639 set up, and here's the fifteen minute video on how to install, and 694 00:55:04.679 --> 00:55:07.480 here's a fifteen minute video on how to use, like the basics that you 695 00:55:07.599 --> 00:55:12.199 probably would recognize out of anything else that's similar. And then here here's you 696 00:55:12.280 --> 00:55:15.039 know, we're going to show you how to get it all set up and 697 00:55:15.320 --> 00:55:21.519 use it. But I really want to give people the full breadth of what 698 00:55:21.639 --> 00:55:23.880 they can get right. And so if you are getting a bunch of programmers 699 00:55:23.880 --> 00:55:29.000 together you can sit down and you know, watch the thing, right, 700 00:55:29.159 --> 00:55:34.599 whether it's you know, a comedic take on a dev team or a documentary 701 00:55:34.719 --> 00:55:37.599 on how a thing came about, or you know, a technical walkthrough on 702 00:55:37.719 --> 00:55:44.760 how to use beat or something like that. So anyway, and this kind 703 00:55:44.800 --> 00:55:46.960 of hits all of those places, right because you know, you kind of 704 00:55:47.000 --> 00:55:51.719 have the slide out menus and the you know, the kinds of interactions that 705 00:55:51.800 --> 00:55:53.320 you want from things, and I think you can get all of that out 706 00:55:53.360 --> 00:55:58.119 of stimulus and how wire and I've been doing stimulus for a few years now. 707 00:55:59.400 --> 00:56:01.920 But anyway, so I'm just walking through this. But yeah, so 708 00:56:02.480 --> 00:56:07.280 the turbative stuff really appeals to me because yeah, I don't see a reason 709 00:56:07.320 --> 00:56:10.920 why you can't. You know, Okay, you want to watch the videos, 710 00:56:10.960 --> 00:56:13.760 so you pull up the app, you open the app, but the 711 00:56:13.800 --> 00:56:19.559 app just you know, mostly loads in you know, the videos and stuff, 712 00:56:19.599 --> 00:56:22.280 and then yeah, yeah, maybe I have to do some work on 713 00:56:22.440 --> 00:56:24.519 it for some of the native stuff, so that yeah, if you want 714 00:56:24.559 --> 00:56:29.960 to download it and watch it offline, yeah, the website doesn't really do 715 00:56:30.119 --> 00:56:34.679 that. But honestly, I think if you're gonna do something like that, 716 00:56:35.039 --> 00:56:37.960 even through Turbonative. I think the best way is probably just using service workers. 717 00:56:38.599 --> 00:56:42.360 So you're going to be in the web world anyway, and your website 718 00:56:42.400 --> 00:56:46.760 will end up supporting it anyway. Right, Because another analogy I kind of 719 00:56:46.800 --> 00:56:51.360 make, and the talk I gave last year, is that turbonative app is 720 00:56:51.880 --> 00:56:57.440 in a way is like showing your website through a custom web browser. So, 721 00:56:57.559 --> 00:57:00.159 yeah, the app shell, all it is, in effect is is 722 00:57:00.199 --> 00:57:06.119 a custom web browser. Right, the tabs and whatever is just you're like 723 00:57:06.199 --> 00:57:09.960 a little bit of custom chrome around what is effectively still your website, right, 724 00:57:10.960 --> 00:57:15.480 Yeah, And that's that's kind of the point is I can build it 725 00:57:15.559 --> 00:57:19.880 once, I can put this wrapper around it, and then yeah, for 726 00:57:19.960 --> 00:57:23.440 anything that I have to tweak because it's mobile or because your phone has a 727 00:57:23.519 --> 00:57:30.199 different concern than the web does, right, then I can figure those pieces 728 00:57:30.239 --> 00:57:32.000 out. The other piece that I want to figure out, and I don't 729 00:57:32.000 --> 00:57:35.519 think it goes into it in your book, but I haven't seen any other 730 00:57:35.559 --> 00:57:38.199 examples of it either, is I'd love to get turbo native to make my 731 00:57:38.320 --> 00:57:44.679 app run on an Apple TV, right yep, and things like that, 732 00:57:44.880 --> 00:57:46.960 and so you know, just figure those pieces out. But the promise of 733 00:57:47.000 --> 00:57:52.199 the book so far is hey, I can have all those things and so 734 00:57:52.360 --> 00:57:54.920 yeah, so some of the stuff I wind up muddling my way through because 735 00:57:54.920 --> 00:57:58.639 I haven't gotten to that part of the book yet, and some of the 736 00:57:58.719 --> 00:58:05.719 stuff, yeah, I'm just looking forward to it. But the thing is 737 00:58:05.880 --> 00:58:07.639 is that, like I went and looked through some of the stimulus chapters, 738 00:58:08.599 --> 00:58:12.840 you know, I didn't like deeply read or try and implement because I'm working 739 00:58:12.880 --> 00:58:15.440 through the book as I read it, right, I'm not just reading it 740 00:58:15.880 --> 00:58:22.079 for the you wiz knowing this stuff. And it's been really really easy to 741 00:58:22.239 --> 00:58:27.920 follow along with anything that I've done out of the book, so that I 742 00:58:28.000 --> 00:58:30.360 will definitely put forward. And it seems like you're offering up a lot of 743 00:58:30.360 --> 00:58:32.480 the stuff that I want to pick up that I just don't know yet. 744 00:58:34.480 --> 00:58:37.559 So when I go and look at the strata section or the stimulus section or 745 00:58:37.840 --> 00:58:39.960 right, it's like it's like I've been doing stimulus for a long time, 746 00:58:40.000 --> 00:58:45.119 but I didn't know I could do that. Okay, you know, I'm 747 00:58:45.199 --> 00:58:50.440 curious, like if somebody's starting from like start to finish with the book, 748 00:58:50.639 --> 00:58:53.960 like how long until they have something like usable of an app that they can 749 00:58:54.039 --> 00:59:00.880 get a good feel for whether or not they like the framework or the direction 750 00:59:00.039 --> 00:59:07.239 is going kind of thing. So I mean, I start start with a 751 00:59:07.480 --> 00:59:10.159 bit an authentication system, so I think like chapter one is just setting up 752 00:59:10.239 --> 00:59:15.599 the reapers. Chapter two is text only intro to Hotwire. Chapter three you 753 00:59:15.639 --> 00:59:20.760 start actually building something you build like users and sign ups. In chapter four 754 00:59:20.920 --> 00:59:22.679 is authentication, and then it kind of builds from there. So I think 755 00:59:22.719 --> 00:59:25.559 those chapter three and four do give you a good feel of the framework. 756 00:59:25.679 --> 00:59:31.199 But this book is not aim that people who don't know rails. So it's 757 00:59:31.679 --> 00:59:37.360 like I've kind of positioned it as a spiritual sequel to the Rail Tutorial by 758 00:59:37.400 --> 00:59:44.119 Michael Hartle usual disclaimers of no affiliation and all that stuff. But so if 759 00:59:44.159 --> 00:59:47.639 you if you're starting my book, my understanding is you or you're already sold 760 00:59:47.679 --> 00:59:53.119 on rails, you already have a basic understanding of it. So my aim 761 00:59:53.239 --> 00:59:57.519 was never to kind of give people a quick feel of the framework, because 762 00:59:57.639 --> 01:00:00.400 if they come to my book, they already like else was kind of like 763 01:00:02.440 --> 01:00:07.480 my thinking behind it, and hot Wire is now kind of like a part 764 01:00:07.559 --> 01:00:09.199 of Rails as well. So while it's kind of front and center because it's 765 01:00:09.199 --> 01:00:14.239 a new thing that people want to learn about. You could get a feel 766 01:00:14.280 --> 01:00:17.039 for it pretty quickly, because, like I said, chapter two is a 767 01:00:17.159 --> 01:00:22.039 text only intro to what it is, to all the bits of it. 768 01:00:22.360 --> 01:00:24.119 Yeah, I wanted to commit a chunk of time to it, like start 769 01:00:24.199 --> 01:00:29.039 to finish, Like about how long am I looking to like make it through 770 01:00:29.079 --> 01:00:31.800 the book and build an app kind of thing? Just you know, people 771 01:00:31.840 --> 01:00:38.760 out there too are curious. Honestly, I honestly couldn't tell you because it's 772 01:00:38.840 --> 01:00:46.039 an absolute beast of a book. And yeah, it depends on like what 773 01:00:46.239 --> 01:00:51.719 your existing level of skill and knowledge is, because some things will take Like 774 01:00:52.440 --> 01:00:55.320 if you already know certain things, you can go through those a lot faster, 775 01:00:55.639 --> 01:00:59.360 and like you could just like copy paste go it out of the book 776 01:00:59.480 --> 01:01:02.719 and just kind of skim through it if you already know it. But if 777 01:01:02.840 --> 01:01:08.320 you're newer to the framework than those things will take longer. Given the fact 778 01:01:08.360 --> 01:01:15.079 that I actually don't know, I haven't spoken to anyone who has done the 779 01:01:15.119 --> 01:01:17.599 book cover to cover, I couldn't tell you how much time it could take 780 01:01:17.639 --> 01:01:22.440 because I couldn't even estimate it, to be honest, I mean, it 781 01:01:22.639 --> 01:01:31.519 just depends on the person. Yeah, that's exactly right. Because the book 782 01:01:31.599 --> 01:01:37.360 is such a beast, It's so big and detailed. I don't think anyone 783 01:01:37.400 --> 01:01:39.320 could just go into it and just do it cover to cover. I think 784 01:01:39.400 --> 01:01:45.440 a lot of people are dipping in and out of it, which is actually 785 01:01:45.480 --> 01:01:47.000 I think maybe a weakness of the book is that cover so much. But 786 01:01:47.079 --> 01:01:52.519 I did want to build. I did want to write like a comprehensive manual. 787 01:01:52.239 --> 01:01:55.000 So like another idea I'm kind of playing around with it in my head 788 01:01:55.159 --> 01:02:02.199 is breaking the book down into you like a series of blog posts and then 789 01:02:02.280 --> 01:02:07.599 paywalling those. So like you have things like goraels and drifting Ruby for screen 790 01:02:07.719 --> 01:02:14.440 casts, but you don't have anything in the Ruby world for like text based 791 01:02:15.599 --> 01:02:20.519 education, which is like bite size text based rather than like Goreels is like 792 01:02:20.599 --> 01:02:23.840 bite size but video. Right, So I think maybe I could think about 793 01:02:24.159 --> 01:02:29.440 that bite size but text based and then just have a subscription on that and 794 01:02:30.119 --> 01:02:36.159 seed that by breaking the book down into individual blog posts so you can use 795 01:02:36.320 --> 01:02:40.159 the new once product by DHH what's it called work book? Yeah, I 796 01:02:40.280 --> 01:02:44.920 did see that. I did see that. It was another idea that it's 797 01:02:45.039 --> 01:02:46.800 in the back of my mind. I will I'll definitely be downloading it when 798 01:02:46.840 --> 01:02:52.239 they release it and I'll see see what's what. You'll have to download it 799 01:02:52.280 --> 01:03:12.360 and post on the neighborhood marketplace. Yep. Anyway, I'll give you more 800 01:03:12.360 --> 01:03:15.199 feedback as I get through it, but I guess I'm pretty constrained. Once 801 01:03:15.239 --> 01:03:22.000 my kids are out of school, it should be better. Well, it's 802 01:03:22.039 --> 01:03:24.440 good to hear the feedback you've got, and I hope you keep finding value 803 01:03:24.480 --> 01:03:29.360 in it. Yeah. Well, I mean one of the other things that 804 01:03:29.480 --> 01:03:31.800 I'm just going to point out that I'm excited about is, you know, 805 01:03:31.920 --> 01:03:36.400 building your own authentication and stuff, because, to be perfectly honest, I've 806 01:03:36.480 --> 01:03:40.239 never done that before. Oh okay, Yeah, I kind of got the 807 01:03:40.320 --> 01:03:44.599 impression people are afraid of it, which is another reason why I wanted to 808 01:03:44.800 --> 01:03:47.320 write about it, is because it can be daunting. But I don't think 809 01:03:47.320 --> 01:03:52.280 it's something people should be afraid of necessarily. I think people are just afraid 810 01:03:52.320 --> 01:03:59.800 of doing something that compromises there. Yeah, yeah, it can be a 811 01:03:59.840 --> 01:04:04.400 bit nuanced, but I think, uh, with the feature that Rails gives 812 01:04:04.400 --> 01:04:09.599 you out of the box of things like has secure password and stuff, you're 813 01:04:09.679 --> 01:04:13.199 not gonna shoot yourself in the foot too badly. You might make an odd 814 01:04:13.320 --> 01:04:19.320 mistake or something like a common mistake that people make is when you store like 815 01:04:19.480 --> 01:04:32.280 a cookie by Valentino. So when you start a cookie that kind of authentic 816 01:04:32.480 --> 01:04:35.559 is the user. The only thing you put in that cookie is the user 817 01:04:35.639 --> 01:04:42.559 I D. And when it's just that, that cookie kind of forms a 818 01:04:43.360 --> 01:04:47.559 permanent key player app. So if someone gets hold of that cookie, there 819 01:04:47.639 --> 01:04:54.039 is nothing you can do to stop them. And the reel tutorial thought authentication 820 01:04:54.159 --> 01:04:57.719 that way, and it is a very common way of teaching authentication in the 821 01:04:58.239 --> 01:05:00.760 in raels was you just saw the you just stick the user iety in a 822 01:05:00.920 --> 01:05:05.039 in a in an encrypted cookie. So like while a hacker could never see 823 01:05:05.159 --> 01:05:11.079 or modify what the user iety was, they could in perpetuity log in as 824 01:05:11.119 --> 01:05:14.599 that user because there's nothing like the useriety doesn't change, right, there's nothing 825 01:05:14.679 --> 01:05:18.360 you can do to invalidate Thatalu, Yeah you can just yeah, so that's 826 01:05:18.400 --> 01:05:21.519 why. Yeah, So that's why you need a second value. So you 827 01:05:21.599 --> 01:05:26.400 need the useriety and you need like an authentication token, and then you authenticate 828 01:05:26.440 --> 01:05:29.239 the user based on both those things. And if someone gets hold of that 829 01:05:29.400 --> 01:05:31.760 cookie, all you need to do is invalidate that session token, and that 830 01:05:31.840 --> 01:05:35.760 cookie is useless. So it's things like that where you'd end up shooting yourself 831 01:05:35.760 --> 01:05:41.320 in the foot, But those things can be fixed. You won't make some 832 01:05:41.920 --> 01:05:45.199 like an absolutely horrendous mistake if you use the tools that Rails gives you, 833 01:05:45.239 --> 01:05:47.079 because things like has to get pass what it's pretty battle tested, it's been 834 01:05:47.119 --> 01:05:51.199 out there for a while, so you won't make mistakes at the like a 835 01:05:51.920 --> 01:05:58.079 cryptographic level necessarily. It'll probably just make more like product mistakes, which it's 836 01:05:58.360 --> 01:06:04.400 much easier to educate against. Right, makes sense. Cool? Well, 837 01:06:04.559 --> 01:06:08.599 it's it's been fun to kind of get to know your background a little bit. 838 01:06:09.400 --> 01:06:12.199 Cheah. Well, I hope people didn't get too bored of me rambling 839 01:06:12.280 --> 01:06:15.159 on, but it's fun to chat. I find it fascinating. So the 840 01:06:15.239 --> 01:06:20.159 rest of you all, I hope you did too. Let's let's go ahead 841 01:06:20.159 --> 01:06:26.239 and do some picks though and wrap this up. Do you have some picks? 842 01:06:26.679 --> 01:06:30.360 Uh? Yeah, I've got a couple. I haven't been doing a 843 01:06:30.400 --> 01:06:35.519 whole lot recently yet, but I did. I watched Inola Holmes two and 844 01:06:35.639 --> 01:06:40.480 then realized I didn't remember anything about the first movie, so I went back 845 01:06:40.519 --> 01:06:44.800 and watched the first movie as well. But yeah, I can wholeheartedly recommend 846 01:06:44.920 --> 01:06:47.079 both those movies. It's about for any and it doesn't know. It's about 847 01:06:47.719 --> 01:06:53.679 Shellock Holmes as little sister Inola Holmes, and it's very much she's the protagonist. 848 01:06:53.719 --> 01:06:56.840 And the movies are very well made. So like, if you're a 849 01:06:56.960 --> 01:06:59.960 fan of Shellock Holmes like I am, you'll probably enjoy it. And it's 850 01:07:00.159 --> 01:07:02.519 very much like they kind of made the movie in a way that she is 851 01:07:02.760 --> 01:07:09.000 the central character. Doesn't feel like like a bolt on into the show lot, 852 01:07:09.079 --> 01:07:13.599 coms world or anything. It's very entertaining, very well done. So 853 01:07:14.199 --> 01:07:18.920 yeah, those two movies. Other than that, I'm on the current rewatch 854 01:07:19.039 --> 01:07:24.000 binge of Breaking Bad. I mean, I think, is there anyone who 855 01:07:24.039 --> 01:07:27.719 hasn't seen Breaking Bad by this point? So, I mean, have we 856 01:07:27.840 --> 01:07:34.159 not? I know I haven't, I will say. I mean it looks, 857 01:07:34.280 --> 01:07:39.159 it looks fascinating. It's a brilliant show. It's like, I love 858 01:07:39.239 --> 01:07:42.239 Breaking Bad, but I'm a bigger fan of the prequel, Better Call Saul, 859 01:07:43.039 --> 01:07:46.719 which is my favorite TV show of all time. Okay, so yeah, 860 01:07:46.840 --> 01:07:50.920 I rewatched Better CALLSL a couple of months ago, and I realized I 861 01:07:51.000 --> 01:07:57.480 hadn't seen Breaking Bad since Better Calls all concluded, which was in two, 862 01:07:58.320 --> 01:08:00.159 so I figured, why not binge it again? So that's what I'm doing. 863 01:08:00.239 --> 01:08:03.880 So those are my epics in Nola Holmes, Want and Do and Breaking 864 01:08:03.960 --> 01:08:09.320 Bad. Yeah, I know I watched the first and Nola Holmes, I 865 01:08:09.440 --> 01:08:14.920 think I saw the second one. Yeah, so the TV rewatch Binge that 866 01:08:15.199 --> 01:08:18.760 I'm on. I know, I know people are like, what about board 867 01:08:18.800 --> 01:08:24.640 games? I'll get to that. The one that I've been watching is The 868 01:08:24.720 --> 01:08:30.760 Walking Dead. So I watched the first four or five seasons way back when 869 01:08:30.800 --> 01:08:34.439 they were coming out, and then I think I got caught caught up and 870 01:08:34.560 --> 01:08:39.359 I quit watching it. And so now that there are like eleven seasons, 871 01:08:40.600 --> 01:08:45.000 I'm kind of curious to see what I missed in the later video, the 872 01:08:45.119 --> 01:08:48.119 later episode. So yeah, I've been watching that. I've been watching on 873 01:08:48.239 --> 01:08:56.880 Netflix and uh yeah, maybe I'll pick up Breaking Bad next. Some of 874 01:08:56.960 --> 01:08:59.520 these shows, though, they get a little too gritty for my wife. 875 01:09:00.279 --> 01:09:03.640 Ah, okay, Breaking Bad might be something I watched by myself. Yeah, 876 01:09:03.840 --> 01:09:08.560 it can. It can be a bit visial. Sometimes they don't really 877 01:09:09.039 --> 01:09:14.439 it's it's it's not it's not like Game of Thrones. That's not where like 878 01:09:15.000 --> 01:09:17.640 Gore is like a unique selling point of the show. But the right when 879 01:09:17.680 --> 01:09:21.039 they want to make an impact, they don't shy away from it, right. 880 01:09:21.720 --> 01:09:26.720 Well, and that's that's the thing with Walking Dead is because I try 881 01:09:26.760 --> 01:09:29.199 to get my wife to watch it, and she just expressed no interest in 882 01:09:29.279 --> 01:09:32.039 it. But I think the overall premise, the story, the characters, 883 01:09:32.920 --> 01:09:36.399 I think she'd really get into it. But I when I started rewatching it, 884 01:09:38.399 --> 01:09:43.119 I'm only like four episodes in at this point, But yeah, I 885 01:09:43.159 --> 01:09:47.199 didn't realize how much gore there is in it with just you know, I 886 01:09:47.279 --> 01:09:50.039 mean, they have to shoot the zombies in the head and so you see 887 01:09:50.319 --> 01:09:54.399 just you know, they're blowing their brains out and stuff, and it, 888 01:09:54.479 --> 01:09:59.560 yeah, it gets a little bit graphic. I think that's kind of the 889 01:10:00.199 --> 01:10:04.479 impact that they wanted to make though on screen. Right. So anyway, 890 01:10:05.840 --> 01:10:10.880 but yeah, as far as board games go, so I'm going to kind 891 01:10:10.920 --> 01:10:15.319 of pick a couple of things. So lately I've been playing games on board 892 01:10:15.359 --> 01:10:18.520 Game Arena, and that's an online system for playing board games, and they 893 01:10:18.560 --> 01:10:27.119 actually have a developer toolkit for building games, so you can build card games 894 01:10:27.199 --> 01:10:30.439 or board games or whatever, right, and you can put the assets in 895 01:10:30.680 --> 01:10:33.880 right, So you have a scan of the board and you know, a 896 01:10:33.960 --> 01:10:39.920 scan of all the cards and everything, and anyway, it's pretty awesome. 897 01:10:40.720 --> 01:10:43.720 The games that I've been playing on there lately are Challengers, and I've picked 898 01:10:43.760 --> 01:10:46.000 that before, and the other one that I've been playing is Lost Ruins of 899 01:10:46.079 --> 01:10:54.560 Arnac. Challengers is very approachable, fun game is kind of a deck building 900 01:10:54.640 --> 01:10:59.560 game and kind of a I don't know exactly how to describe it. It's 901 01:10:59.600 --> 01:11:02.399 kind of like war, but it's not. Anyway, I really like it. 902 01:11:03.399 --> 01:11:08.880 And then so effectively, every round you draw more cards out of the 903 01:11:08.920 --> 01:11:12.199 pile and you choose which ones to keep in your deck, and then they 904 01:11:12.239 --> 01:11:16.119 all have different values and different powers, and so you know, depending on 905 01:11:16.239 --> 01:11:18.840 how how the play comes out, because you just pull the card off the 906 01:11:18.880 --> 01:11:23.159 top of your deck, you don't know what it is, right you can. 907 01:11:24.640 --> 01:11:28.479 You basically are just trying to beat the other person's last card. And 908 01:11:29.359 --> 01:11:31.279 anyway, it's pretty fun. You can play it up to like eight players, 909 01:11:32.079 --> 01:11:36.199 and so then what happens is you rotate who you're playing with every turn. 910 01:11:39.960 --> 01:11:45.760 Lost Ruins Varnak is much more involved. Uh so you you have work 911 01:11:45.800 --> 01:11:49.199 replacement, you have a tech tree, you have Exploration. It's got a 912 01:11:49.239 --> 01:11:55.479 whole bunch of different elements, but it's it's probably one of my uh more 913 01:11:55.560 --> 01:11:59.319 beloved games that I play these days. So I'm gonna I'm gonna pick both 914 01:11:59.359 --> 01:12:00.920 of those. I'm not going to go look them up on Board game Geek. 915 01:12:00.960 --> 01:12:04.479 I don't remember what their weights are, but Challengers is very approachable for 916 01:12:04.560 --> 01:12:10.239 anybody, and Lost Ruins of Oarnac is more for the hardcore board game players. 917 01:12:12.520 --> 01:12:15.880 And then on the technical side, so I've had a few things that 918 01:12:15.880 --> 01:12:19.039 I've been picking up lately, either because I'm trying to, you know, 919 01:12:19.199 --> 01:12:23.680 learn a technology that I haven't used or haven't used in a while. For 920 01:12:23.800 --> 01:12:26.279 my contract. Right it's like, hey, they're using it, and so 921 01:12:26.439 --> 01:12:29.960 I've I've got to figure out how to you know, model through it and 922 01:12:30.079 --> 01:12:32.640 not make, you know, fundamental mistakes on how I use it. And 923 01:12:32.840 --> 01:12:36.439 I get feedbacks on the prs that I put in, so it's not it's 924 01:12:36.520 --> 01:12:42.560 not bad, it's just anyway. But one thing that I picked up that 925 01:12:42.640 --> 01:12:46.039 I really really like is VAT. So there's a VAT Ruby and Veat rails 926 01:12:46.119 --> 01:12:50.359 gems and we've we've had Massimo on the show. Before I think to talk 927 01:12:50.399 --> 01:12:56.199 about it, but it gives me hot module reloading, which I wasn't really 928 01:12:56.239 --> 01:13:02.119 getting for prop shaft or important maps. And the other thing is is sometimes 929 01:13:02.239 --> 01:13:05.920 I felt like I had to fuss with stuff to get it to play nice 930 01:13:05.960 --> 01:13:12.479 with the important maps and vat Ruby, it just works. So I've been 931 01:13:12.479 --> 01:13:16.600 pretty happy with that. And yeah, now that I'm pulling in stimulus components 932 01:13:17.079 --> 01:13:25.119 and starting to get into using turbo and turbo screens, yeah, that's been 933 01:13:25.359 --> 01:13:30.439 so super nice. The other end of it that I've also been liking. 934 01:13:30.640 --> 01:13:34.880 I never got into writing kind of the what is it feature or system level 935 01:13:34.960 --> 01:13:42.720 tests for rails right. I always wrote my unit tests and then occasionally i'd 936 01:13:42.800 --> 01:13:48.239 write tests for other things if it got complicated. But lately I've gotten into 937 01:13:48.279 --> 01:13:53.800 copy Barra, and it's because my client uses them on their stuff right to 938 01:13:53.840 --> 01:13:59.800 test their stuff that use copy Barra, and man, that's been super nice 939 01:14:00.000 --> 01:14:03.159 once I kind of got the hang of writing those specs. It's nice because 940 01:14:03.199 --> 01:14:06.359 it'll walk through the app and do the things, and you can enable the 941 01:14:06.840 --> 01:14:15.000 JavaScript and it uses the Chrome driver and right, so it'll it'll test my 942 01:14:15.119 --> 01:14:19.399 hot wire and everything because I'm not super keen on testing my front end JavaScript. 943 01:14:20.399 --> 01:14:24.039 Sorry, I just I'm not. And for the most part, my 944 01:14:24.199 --> 01:14:29.000 stimulus controllers are very very simple, right, It's, hey, make this 945 01:14:29.119 --> 01:14:32.000 show up and use the animations that I put on it. I mean, 946 01:14:32.039 --> 01:14:38.800 that's almost entirely what I've done so far. So the only tricky thing that 947 01:14:38.840 --> 01:14:42.000 I've had to do is I've been I've had to figure out how to get 948 01:14:42.520 --> 01:14:47.840 one controller to trigger the method on another controller. Right, So I have 949 01:14:47.960 --> 01:14:53.920 a button that makes something show up, and it's not really in the thing 950 01:14:54.000 --> 01:14:58.399 that makes it show up. So anyway, I've I've had to figure that 951 01:14:58.520 --> 01:15:04.520 out. But are you using what you're using? The outlets API outlets API. 952 01:15:05.439 --> 01:15:10.960 Yeah, that's a mechanism for one stimulus controller to communicate with another stimulus 953 01:15:11.039 --> 01:15:17.319 controller. The the thing that I've been I'm looking at. I'm looking it 954 01:15:17.399 --> 01:15:23.720 up now because no, I didn't even know this was the thing I was 955 01:15:23.800 --> 01:15:28.720 looking at. So on the reference under the controllers it says you can use 956 01:15:28.760 --> 01:15:34.680 an event to trigger the other method. But I'll have to look at this, 957 01:15:34.760 --> 01:15:40.159 because yeah you can. And it's again, it just depends on your 958 01:15:40.439 --> 01:15:45.920 use cases. Sometimes triggering an event is the right thing to do. But 959 01:15:45.039 --> 01:15:47.600 again, if you just look at the reference and on the left you'll see 960 01:15:47.600 --> 01:15:53.159 a section for outlets. Yeah, it might be that outlets, So what 961 01:15:53.239 --> 01:15:56.399 you're looking for in this particular case, Yeah, I'll have to look at 962 01:15:56.439 --> 01:16:01.159 that because yeah, yeah, anyway, I'll dive through it. But yeah, 963 01:16:01.199 --> 01:16:04.279 it'd be nice because all I'm looking for is, like I have a 964 01:16:04.359 --> 01:16:08.439 menu. I have two menus, one that slides in from the left and 965 01:16:08.479 --> 01:16:13.960 the other that slides in from the right. And yeah, effectively, I'm 966 01:16:14.000 --> 01:16:19.199 just looking for the one on the right. I have a button that's you 967 01:16:19.279 --> 01:16:21.840 know, in the middle of my page, and so I don't want to 968 01:16:21.840 --> 01:16:27.279 wrap the whole page in a stimulus component if I don't have to, or 969 01:16:27.279 --> 01:16:30.159 a stimulus controller, and so yeah, I'm looking for Okay, if I 970 01:16:30.279 --> 01:16:33.439 click this link, it's going to open this other thing over here and make 971 01:16:33.479 --> 01:16:38.319 it slide in. So I don't know if outlets is the right thing for 972 01:16:38.399 --> 01:16:43.359 that or yeah, it might be actually, yeah, just like without looking 973 01:16:43.399 --> 01:16:45.520 at the code, it's hard to say, but I have a feeling it 974 01:16:45.880 --> 01:16:48.239 would probably be the simplest way to do it. Okay, sounds good. 975 01:16:48.319 --> 01:16:54.520 Yeah, because I've been I have to say the documentation on stimulus is not 976 01:16:54.640 --> 01:16:59.640 always as comprehensive as I would like it. No, it isn't. Yeah, 977 01:17:00.319 --> 01:17:02.199 and so what I run into is it's like, hey, you could 978 01:17:02.239 --> 01:17:04.560 do this, and you could do this in this way, and it's like, 979 01:17:04.680 --> 01:17:11.439 okay, but my situation is just different enough, or you're not telling 980 01:17:11.520 --> 01:17:15.079 me which parts of this matter and so right, so I'm trying to figure 981 01:17:15.119 --> 01:17:19.039 out, yeah, how to get the gears to mesh, and so I 982 01:17:19.159 --> 01:17:27.159 have to fuss with it to get it to go. So anyway, yeah, 983 01:17:27.399 --> 01:17:31.600 it can be a bit tricky just to yeah, yeah stuff, we'll 984 01:17:31.640 --> 01:17:34.840 look at that. That's good. Yep, that's a good tip. But 985 01:17:35.399 --> 01:17:40.000 anyway, so I am going to shout out beat Ruby that made my life 986 01:17:40.039 --> 01:17:45.520 simpler. And yeah, I'm really looking forward to uh pulling some of these 987 01:17:45.560 --> 01:17:50.199 gems out of this project myself. Anyway, we're pretty much out of time, 988 01:17:50.279 --> 01:17:54.239 so I'm gonna wrap us up and we'll talk about Bridgetown next week. 989 01:17:54.840 --> 01:17:58.159 Yeah sounds good. Another week of me rambling on what could go wrong? 990 01:18:00.000 --> 01:18:08.279 Yeah all right, Well, well next time, folks, max out h