1 00:00:01,080 --> 00:00:07,200 You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas. 2 00:00:07,719 --> 00:00:12,039 I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now 3 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:16,000 trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other 4 00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:20,239 victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway 5 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:24,640 murders, and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together 6 00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:28,440 with Kristin Dilley. My name is Kristin Dilley. I'm a writer, a 7 00:00:28,519 --> 00:00:32,439 researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social 8 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:37,759 media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner 9 00:00:37,799 --> 00:00:50,439 in crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to mind Over Murder. I'm Kristin Dilley 10 00:00:50,679 --> 00:00:55,359 and I'm Bill Thomas, and we're joined today by doctor Michael Boden, one 11 00:00:55,359 --> 00:01:00,719 of the most pre eminent forensic pathologists in the true crime space. Doctor Biden, 12 00:01:00,759 --> 00:01:03,640 we are thrilled and honored to have you here. Thank you for joining 13 00:01:03,759 --> 00:01:10,000 us. Great to be here. Start by telling us about your extensive professional 14 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:12,239 background. I know that's a tall order to see if you can do it 15 00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:15,560 in just a couple of sentences for us. Start out, I would be 16 00:01:17,519 --> 00:01:22,079 was a graduate of the City College of New York and NYU Medical School. 17 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:29,640 Did an internship residency program at Bellevue Hospital in New York City, first an 18 00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:36,439 internal medicine, then in pathology, and just by accident, because the New 19 00:01:36,519 --> 00:01:42,920 York City Medical Examiners Office was located in the basement of Bellevue Hospital, I 20 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:49,319 became interested in autopsies that we're done every day in the basement at Bellevue and 21 00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:53,760 learned a great deal of information about people. It's an amazing thing what autopsies 22 00:01:53,799 --> 00:02:01,359 can tell you, and eventually change from internal medicine to pathology. Began working 23 00:02:01,599 --> 00:02:07,359 first on a moonlighting basis for the Medical Examiner's office in New York City, 24 00:02:07,840 --> 00:02:13,360 going to scenes of death and doing autopsies on weekends and holidays, and became 25 00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:16,439 a full time medical examiner and worked there for twenty five years, doing in 26 00:02:16,560 --> 00:02:22,960 various capacities, including that of Chief Medical Examiner in New York. Then after 27 00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:27,599 twenty five years, I switched to the New York State Police and was the 28 00:02:27,719 --> 00:02:32,479 chief forensic pathologist for the New York State Police, which had the death cases 29 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:40,479 throughout these sixty two counties of New York and recently he was retired and I'm 30 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:46,199 doing a private forensic pathology and fascinated every time I do an autopsy. It's 31 00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:53,319 like a miracle to see how trillions of cells line up to give us hearts 32 00:02:53,319 --> 00:02:58,759 and loans and nerves, how to cells know where they go. It's I 33 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:05,000 think more each scene looking into the body is more fascinating than looking at the 34 00:03:05,080 --> 00:03:08,840 outer space and seeing a few suns that are going to explode or something like 35 00:03:08,879 --> 00:03:14,800 that. But it's the human body is each one of us is a miracle 36 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:20,000 as as far as the autopsy table goes, so that we've got our terminology 37 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:23,280 right. And I realized going into this that I don't have the terminology right. 38 00:03:23,520 --> 00:03:29,199 Can you explain the difference between a forensic pathologist, a coroner, and 39 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:32,400 a medical examiner, because I can't tell the difference between the three, So 40 00:03:32,599 --> 00:03:38,560 please help us out. That's interesting because it's a confusing history. Way back 41 00:03:38,879 --> 00:03:44,319 in England, a coroner system was developed because even in the twelfth century when 42 00:03:44,439 --> 00:03:47,840 developed, when somebody died, there had to be some accounting to have the 43 00:03:47,919 --> 00:03:54,159 death occurred, especially in England, because if somebody committed suicide. The law 44 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:59,000 was allowed to commit suicide because then I lose a troop for an army, 45 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:03,719 and all of that individual's property would be go over to the king. So 46 00:04:04,039 --> 00:04:10,680 the main thing was picking up suicide so they could confiscate that individual's remains. 47 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:15,839 And in sixteen nineteen and from then on in the United States, in the 48 00:04:15,879 --> 00:04:21,800 early part at that time, we inherited that coroners system was called in England 49 00:04:23,079 --> 00:04:29,399 after coroner started out as crowner. It was a head officer of the crown. 50 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:33,040 In fact, if one goes to Hamlet, when Hamlet comes upon the 51 00:04:33,079 --> 00:04:42,120 graveyard scene and asks, how come the burying using a church burial for somebody 52 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:46,480 who growned, and they say because the crowner. They still use a term. 53 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:53,240 In fifteen Hamlet has written as crowner and has determined that she didn't go 54 00:04:53,319 --> 00:04:57,040 to the water, but the water came to her. Therefore it's not suicide. 55 00:04:57,199 --> 00:05:00,480 And that's still how it works in our business, and is that crowners 56 00:05:00,759 --> 00:05:08,480 And the development from crowners in the nineteenth century late nineteenth century was somebody figured 57 00:05:08,519 --> 00:05:14,240 out in Maryland and first of New York that the person who should be able 58 00:05:14,279 --> 00:05:16,439 to determine the cause of death should be a physician because they should know what 59 00:05:16,519 --> 00:05:23,759 the medical terms are. Medical examiners sprouted up in some jurisdictions where the person 60 00:05:23,879 --> 00:05:30,160 in charge of determining cause and manner of death is a physician. Some places 61 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:33,639 say there has to be a foren a physician who specializes in deaths, which 62 00:05:33,680 --> 00:05:40,920 is the pathologist. Presently that half the United States counties are corner counties and 63 00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:46,240 half from medical examiner counties. The difference is corners, going back to our 64 00:05:46,279 --> 00:05:51,000 British routes, can be anyone of age now eighteen or eighteen or twenty one 65 00:05:51,079 --> 00:05:57,319 years of Volde who is a citizen and is elected. Corners are elected and 66 00:05:57,439 --> 00:06:02,480 in most places need no experience except being a citizen. And that's half the 67 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:09,800 United States has run that way, and half are medical examiners. Medical examiners 68 00:06:09,920 --> 00:06:17,279 are appointed by the county to a Most medical examiners have to be physicians or 69 00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:24,319 medical professionals, and in some places like New York City, the person has 70 00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:30,120 to be a forensic pathologist because the forensic pathologist is the one who is trained 71 00:06:30,360 --> 00:06:35,959 in unnatural death. Coroners, I said, are elected and the medical examiners 72 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:42,839 appointed based on merit to be a medical examiner is a political appointment. A 73 00:06:42,959 --> 00:06:48,480 medical examiner is the person in charge. The old Quincy series on television, 74 00:06:48,759 --> 00:06:54,639 Quincy was the forensic pathologist and there was a lawyer who was the medic who 75 00:06:54,800 --> 00:07:00,519 was the coroner in charge. Quincy was a medical examiner and his boss was 76 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:09,839 a coroner who was a lawyer. Even now, California is unique where most 77 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:15,600 medical examiners are appointed by the coroner who is a sheriff. And that's a 78 00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:21,120 pretty much only mostly in California, and that's the difference. There have been 79 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:28,439 some In New York State, there's sixty two counties of which about eighteen or 80 00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:33,720 medical examiners are in charge and the rest are elected coroners. One of the 81 00:07:33,759 --> 00:07:40,040 reasons I was asked to be in charge of the as the medical examiner for 82 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:45,519 the state police was that in many of the counties they work in, there 83 00:07:45,519 --> 00:07:51,600 are coroners who are elected who aren't trained in how to learn from the dead 84 00:07:51,639 --> 00:07:58,600 body that the forensic pathologies has to. So they established a forensic Science division 85 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:03,439 where I could then the active in all the counties had helped the coroners. 86 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:09,399 So because the state police were losing cases because of bad autopsies at that time. 87 00:08:09,759 --> 00:08:16,040 Now, as far as pathologists go, pathology is one of the specialties 88 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:22,480 in medicine, and most pathologists are hospital pathologists who work in hospitals and were 89 00:08:22,560 --> 00:08:28,720 in the laboratories and examine do autopsies as necessary and examine the biopsies that are 90 00:08:28,759 --> 00:08:33,840 taken to see if it's cancer or not cancer for example. And the pathologists 91 00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:39,879 doesn't really deal with patient with living people. They deal with other doctors who 92 00:08:39,879 --> 00:08:45,679 are living excuse me, but not patients. So the hospital pathologist deals with 93 00:08:45,720 --> 00:08:50,799 other physicians. I always like when I worked part time in the medical examiner's 94 00:08:50,879 --> 00:08:56,159 office to patient the contact with the family members and of the people that were 95 00:08:56,200 --> 00:09:00,919 being examined autopsies, or when I went to the scene to scenes of death 96 00:09:01,279 --> 00:09:05,080 for the autopsy. Start at the scene of death. That's where we learned 97 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:07,759 how long the person has been dead or we will find out if they have 98 00:09:07,879 --> 00:09:13,480 any pre existing illnesses, what medicines they're on, and how long have they've 99 00:09:13,519 --> 00:09:18,039 been dead, and whether or not an autopsy should be done. And that's 100 00:09:18,399 --> 00:09:22,960 by talking to the family members and getting more information. That's how medical examin 101 00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:28,200 as the corners differ. Wow without trying to be too pointed about it, 102 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:33,159 Doctor Boden. It sounds like in a lot of places around the United States, 103 00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:39,240 people that aren't don't sound terribly qualified, are acting as coroners. They're 104 00:09:39,279 --> 00:09:43,919 not doctors, they're not trained medical examiners, and yet they're supposed to determine 105 00:09:45,039 --> 00:09:50,080 how a particular person died. Yes, and that is that is a deficiency. 106 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:54,120 We're still working in half the counties in the United States with a system 107 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:58,279 that was established in the eighteen hundreds or seventeen hundreds, when the United States 108 00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:05,639 was first developed. It sounds very anachronistic. From time to time there was 109 00:10:05,639 --> 00:10:09,759 an attempt made to change coroner systems to medical examine systems. I was involved 110 00:10:09,759 --> 00:10:13,320 with that once in the New York State when I was in the New York 111 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:18,840 City Medical Examin's office. There was a movement to change all the sixty two 112 00:10:18,879 --> 00:10:24,080 counties in the New York State to medical examiner counties and eliminate all of the 113 00:10:24,159 --> 00:10:28,639 coroner counties where many of them are truck drivers in the two of the most 114 00:10:28,639 --> 00:10:33,039 in common are funeral directors. They're the ones that make up most of the 115 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:39,000 biggest coroners system gathering, and they're usually bright people or no medical knowledge, 116 00:10:39,159 --> 00:10:43,159 but they know how to deal with people. They know how to deal with 117 00:10:43,159 --> 00:10:46,200 the families. And we when there was a bill put up in the New 118 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:52,639 York State legislature to change the medical Examiners state medical XAMINA system, thousands of 119 00:10:52,799 --> 00:11:01,519 coroner supporters from the counties got buses to go to Albany to protests because one 120 00:11:01,559 --> 00:11:05,600 of the things about electing being elected a coroner is you have a base of 121 00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:11,320 people who are friends to you because and if the coroner acts properly. You 122 00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:16,320 know, some doctors are not very good with people, and that could be 123 00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:22,519 upsetting to people if they Funeral directors know very trained and they're very good in 124 00:11:22,840 --> 00:11:26,320 relating to people's and making them feel better at a time of grief. And 125 00:11:26,519 --> 00:11:31,240 that was demonstrated to me when with the field attempt to change things in New 126 00:11:31,279 --> 00:11:33,720 York State. So I think that's they're going to be with us. There 127 00:11:33,799 --> 00:11:39,600 are courses for coroners, and most coroners, many coroners, not all, 128 00:11:39,799 --> 00:11:45,919 will work out a relationship with a nearby for topologist to do autopsies for which 129 00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:50,200 they pay them a certain amount of fee for each per case a fee. 130 00:11:50,720 --> 00:11:52,919 There is a whole hidden history to this that I had no idea about. 131 00:11:52,960 --> 00:12:00,919 How interesting that the when one goes into the accuracy what death certificate we you 132 00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:05,399 know a lot of mistakes made about death certificates. Occasionally they come out. 133 00:12:05,559 --> 00:12:09,519 Usually they come out when somebody prominent dies, and that's because there's an interest 134 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:13,759 in them. Most people who die, that cause of death is often just 135 00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:18,759 a guess. And then this goes into Bible statistics, so it becomes an 136 00:12:18,840 --> 00:12:22,759 issue as to how common certain diseases are, how we miss certain kid And 137 00:12:22,879 --> 00:12:28,759 that's what happens really with the police deaths and police custody is that there's a 138 00:12:28,799 --> 00:12:33,600 great deal of underreporting of deaths and police encounters. One of the reasons I 139 00:12:33,919 --> 00:12:37,200 wrote this book. Yeah, so let's go ahead and jump into that. 140 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:41,919 So you've written a new book called American Autopsy. It's really fascinating. There's 141 00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:46,159 a whole array of issues that came up in the book that I had never 142 00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:50,840 really taken into consideration before. But I really enjoyed reading it. Tell us 143 00:12:50,879 --> 00:12:54,960 about the premise of the book, and then why you felt it was so 144 00:12:56,000 --> 00:13:01,200 imperative to write this book. Now, I've been concerned since I started out 145 00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:07,440 as a medical examiner about the unevenness as in death the determinations country, partly 146 00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:13,919 because of the lack of training many people, especially coroners, in making decisions. 147 00:13:15,279 --> 00:13:18,240 But it became more apparent to me that when I was a medical thought, 148 00:13:18,279 --> 00:13:24,679 as a medical examiners, that we were especially supposed to be especially careful 149 00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:30,320 in determining cause of death and people who die in police encounters. And this 150 00:13:30,519 --> 00:13:35,279 became very apparent when I became chief medical examiner. About a month or two 151 00:13:35,399 --> 00:13:39,600 after I became chief medical examiner, there was a citizen named Martha Miller, 152 00:13:39,879 --> 00:13:46,200 a black citizen that the mayor today Mayor Adams, referred to in a celebration 153 00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:52,720 of his life fifty years death or so that he was the first I can't 154 00:13:52,759 --> 00:13:56,519 breathe person I was a chief medical examiner. Arthur Miller was a businessman in 155 00:13:56,600 --> 00:14:01,120 Brooklyn, very friendly with police, good in the community. Comes home one 156 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:07,600 day and sees a crowd around his brother and police. Apparently the police wanted 157 00:14:07,639 --> 00:14:11,679 to give him a summons for improperly getting rid of garbage, and they were 158 00:14:11,799 --> 00:14:16,799 around him. He came up and he put his arms up to tell the 159 00:14:16,799 --> 00:14:20,039 community to get back and see what it is. How he could stop the 160 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:26,320 emotion. But one of the police officers saw that he had a gun on 161 00:14:26,879 --> 00:14:31,559 It was a legal gun that he was with a permit to a cake because 162 00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:35,639 he as a businessman who had carried a lot of money around from time to 163 00:14:35,679 --> 00:14:37,960 time, so it was legal. But the police didn't know that, and 164 00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:41,120 they immediately jumped on him, got him down on the ground. What's heard 165 00:14:41,159 --> 00:14:45,919 to say, I can't breathe. That's why may Or Adams refers back to 166 00:14:46,039 --> 00:14:50,519 him in that force in that and guests in the police car goes to the 167 00:14:50,519 --> 00:14:52,879 precinct. By the time gets to the precinct, he's dead. The autopsy 168 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:58,080 is done by the Brooklyn Medical Examiner because it had that's weird death. I 169 00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:01,679 was a chief pulled up and asked what the findings were, and he said, 170 00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:07,519 it looks like he died of psychosis with exhaustion. I said, what 171 00:15:07,559 --> 00:15:09,039 do you mean. I said, that's what we always say when people die 172 00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:13,919 and they're excited and they die while being subdued by police, that somehow the 173 00:15:13,960 --> 00:15:18,240 adrenal glands are putting out too much adrenaline. It's the fault of the person 174 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:22,600 who dies, not the throat to the police, and I said, and 175 00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:26,320 he damaged his neck. Yeah, there's a fracture in the Adam's apple, 176 00:15:26,519 --> 00:15:31,080 little hemorrhage's petiguar in the eyes. Said it wasn't that typical of neck compression 177 00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:35,679 and he said yes, but we don't put that down. I said, 178 00:15:35,679 --> 00:15:39,559 we're going to put it down now, and this is my just starting out, 179 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:43,120 and he put down cause of death was compression of neck at that time, 180 00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:48,720 much like Floyd's Floyd's neck and that was a homeside because death. And 181 00:15:48,799 --> 00:15:54,320 another I got a call from the mayor, extremely upset Mayor Katch that he 182 00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:56,720 was getting a hassle from police and saying, now, we're not supposed to 183 00:15:56,799 --> 00:16:00,080 do that. I said, it's truth is the truth. And that was 184 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:07,399 what led to my being demoted from chief the deputy chief medical examiner after about 185 00:16:07,399 --> 00:16:11,639 a year that I was there in the office. Is because back in nineteen 186 00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:17,440 seventy nine, this was this is saying that the police caused the death, 187 00:16:17,519 --> 00:16:19,960 and this is around the country the same way. There's a lot of pushback 188 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:25,879 for medical examiners to say that the police caused the death. And that got 189 00:16:25,919 --> 00:16:33,159 me thinking a lot beginning there about how the autopsy situation can lead to misdiagnoses, 190 00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:36,759 and as soon as the medical examiner says that it's not a homicide, 191 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:41,360 that it's psychosis with exhaustion or excited delirium, which then came after that, 192 00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:48,080 no more investigation. And when I started the book out, when I got 193 00:16:48,159 --> 00:16:52,639 a call from the family of George Floyd that they wanted me to do a 194 00:16:52,679 --> 00:16:57,759 second autopsy because the first autopsy, the medical examiner and the disc attorney had 195 00:16:57,799 --> 00:17:02,399 come out right after the first about three or four days after he died, 196 00:17:02,639 --> 00:17:07,480 came out and said that the police restraint had nothing to do with the George 197 00:17:07,519 --> 00:17:12,920 Floyd's death. And I had seen the same photographs that a rail story with 198 00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:18,039 the taken by a fifteen year old girl with the officer's knee pressing on the 199 00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:23,799 neck, his saying I can't breathe, I can't breathe, and dying, 200 00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:29,079 and it reminded me so much of Arthur Miller that this has been going on 201 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:36,680 from nineteen seventy nine to twenty twenty, that I decided that I should write 202 00:17:36,759 --> 00:17:41,240 something about it and how to prevent it. That it's a structural It isn't 203 00:17:41,240 --> 00:17:45,559 a bad apple, it's a structural thing. What kind of conversation, if 204 00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:52,240 any goes on behind the scenes, doctor Boden, When you've got mayors and 205 00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:59,240 police chiefs and the heads of police unions and other people, the pressure on 206 00:17:59,599 --> 00:18:07,319 the medical professionals to push their analysis in a direction that exonerates the police has 207 00:18:07,319 --> 00:18:12,359 to be tremendous. What's said behind the scenes, what's behind the scenes. 208 00:18:12,519 --> 00:18:17,640 Two things once is that when we grow up as medical examiners, we are 209 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:22,640 in everyday contact with the police. Because the medical examiner in training and the 210 00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:30,079 medical examiner throughout life deals every day with police would come down to identify decedents 211 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:36,880 and to give information, we develop I think a bias towards our friends. 212 00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:41,880 And that when death occurs, most even the good forensic pathologists, and there 213 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:45,359 aren't that many around, they're only about that's a four hundred or five hundred 214 00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:52,319 full time pathologists in the whole country. Medical examiners see the police usually as 215 00:18:52,359 --> 00:18:55,960 good guys, and that they didn't go they didn't wake up in the morning 216 00:18:56,039 --> 00:19:02,880 wanting to kill somebody. And that when the people die in the police encounters 217 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:08,519 by asphyxia during the restraint process, by pressing on the back, trying to 218 00:19:08,559 --> 00:19:15,359 handcuff somebody from behind, causes the domin lorgans to push up into the chest 219 00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:19,119 and prevents the diaphragms from going up and down so that we can't breathe. 220 00:19:19,319 --> 00:19:23,759 And that's why Arthur Miller and so many others have said, I can't breathe. 221 00:19:23,759 --> 00:19:29,000 I can't breathe because the diaphragm throone go down in order to inhale. 222 00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:30,759 A diaphragm has to go down. And you and I, as we're sitting 223 00:19:30,799 --> 00:19:36,079 here, our diaphragms are going up and down about eighteen times in a minute. 224 00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:40,799 We have nothing to do with it. The small thin muscle that gets 225 00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:45,240 no respect. It's not like the biceps. The triceps is what keeps us 226 00:19:45,279 --> 00:19:48,720 alive from birth to death. That keeps our lungs going in and out and 227 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:56,079 inhaling and exhaling. Here when that stopped by most often by police officers who 228 00:19:56,079 --> 00:20:00,000 are pressing on the back to get the risks together to put on a handcuff, 229 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:04,240 and somebody who's resisting the person can't breathe and dies and leaves no marks 230 00:20:04,279 --> 00:20:08,079 on the body. See, there's no marks in the body. Like with 231 00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:15,000 George Floyd, when the medical examined and prosecutors said that there's nothing at the 232 00:20:15,039 --> 00:20:21,119 autopsy to show that he died because of the police restraint. Doctors knew that 233 00:20:21,319 --> 00:20:27,920 was nonsense, because suffocation death because back pressure leaves no marks on the body. 234 00:20:29,559 --> 00:20:33,440 Was What did happen was that the photograph, the one photograph that they 235 00:20:33,519 --> 00:20:38,240 a fifteen year old girl got the poet surprised for rightfully, that showed the 236 00:20:38,839 --> 00:20:44,759 knee on Floyd's neck, and while he was saying I can't breathe, I 237 00:20:44,759 --> 00:20:49,400 can't breathe showed what everybody else knew that this police that killed him, it 238 00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:56,000 wasn't due to the restraint. And the problem comes up is that various cause 239 00:20:56,039 --> 00:21:00,319 of death pulled put on the death certificate that washes over that cause of death, 240 00:21:00,559 --> 00:21:07,559 things like excited delirium, things like undetermined things of blaming low levels of 241 00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:12,319 drugs or heart disease that would not be a cause of death. High the 242 00:21:12,359 --> 00:21:18,759 fact that excess of force was used, and that's what's leading to increasing division 243 00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:23,680 as exposed by the George Floyd incidents. You're listening to Mind over Murder. 244 00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:33,880 We'll be right back after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at 245 00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:37,480 Mind over Murder. Yeah, nobody is going to put positional asphyxia on a 246 00:21:37,519 --> 00:21:41,880 death certificate as opposed to some other thing where they can sail it was what 247 00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:48,400 did you call it, psychotic delirium, psychosis with psychosis, with exhaustion. 248 00:21:51,079 --> 00:21:56,319 Ye, now it's excited delirium excited. All of that says that it's not 249 00:21:56,440 --> 00:22:00,839 the fault of the police officer. That goes down to natural deaths, end 250 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:08,559 of case. And I think George Floyd exposed how the diagnosis by the medical 251 00:22:08,599 --> 00:22:17,480 examiner can immediately halt any type of investigation because of the medical examiner says the 252 00:22:17,599 --> 00:22:22,680 death is not homicide, it's accident or suicide or natural. That ends the 253 00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:30,160 police investigation. And that results in the families that have been very upset over 254 00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:37,000 the years. And also the great under counting of deaths the Washington Post has 255 00:22:37,039 --> 00:22:44,440 because there's no governmental reporting of deaths caused by police. And the problem is 256 00:22:45,079 --> 00:22:49,920 in part demonstrated by the Washington Post by looking every day at all a newspaper 257 00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:53,559 reports that all have found all the past a few years that they are about 258 00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:59,839 a thousand deaths a year in this country that are caused by police shooting. 259 00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:07,319 Mostly Stata Washington studied death certificates the university and found that half of all deaths 260 00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:11,400 involving police are not mentioned on the death certificate in any way. It's usually 261 00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:15,400 such as by excited delirium and things like that, And so at least two 262 00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:21,240 thousand deaths a year from police activity, and the only way to really get 263 00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:26,160 a handle on it and to try and develop strategies to prevent it is by 264 00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:30,720 having a national register of all these deaths. This was tried, I think 265 00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:34,799 back around twenty fourteen, when there was some concern about police and deaths. 266 00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:41,680 A lowest pass the federal law to report world deaths voluntarily with the volunt by 267 00:23:41,799 --> 00:23:51,880 police departments by and it turned out just in December the government, the IGO, 268 00:23:52,079 --> 00:23:56,440 the government agency that looks into these things, didn't study and showed that 269 00:23:56,200 --> 00:24:03,920 very few counties jurisdictions reported any deaths because it was voluntary. That has to 270 00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:08,400 be made mandatory. And then to be able to get a handle on where 271 00:24:08,799 --> 00:24:15,400 the deaths occur and how they can be prevented. Part of it and one 272 00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:19,839 of the things that occurred to me in my years it's not a rotten apple 273 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:26,880 thing, it's a systemic, systemic thing. I had done an autopsy investigated 274 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:34,039 death ten years before George Floyd in the same police precinct in Minneapolis, a 275 00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:41,599 black male who had some mental impairment, but was shooting basketballs by himself and 276 00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:45,880 YMCA that he belonged to. When somebody complained that he didn't like him being 277 00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:52,799 there, police came and anything wrong, subdued him, caused his death. 278 00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:56,200 Was on a video camera. I came down to testify that. Then the 279 00:24:56,240 --> 00:25:02,759 same medical examiner agreed. We both agreed that he of police chest compression. 280 00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:07,119 As a result of the settlement after that case, they had to do a 281 00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:14,039 serious education of all the Minneapolis police and every month, every morning have things 282 00:25:14,039 --> 00:25:18,440 written to them about how compression of a frenstion of breathing can cause death. 283 00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:26,000 That was the same precinct as George Floyd was killed at where not only did 284 00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:30,599 chabez do put his knee on the neck, but the other three officers protected 285 00:25:30,759 --> 00:25:36,960 with there and wouldn't let any of the bystanders to help or obey what they 286 00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:41,240 said, you're killing him, you're killing him quote on the video. It's 287 00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:45,920 hard to just educate. There has to be certain changes, like police getting 288 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:52,279 rid of qualified immunity, which protects police from actions, some special interpretations of 289 00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:59,119 the law It does sound like there needs to be a pretty significant amount of 290 00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:03,480 changes made, not only to here's how we treat police officers like you mentioned 291 00:26:03,559 --> 00:26:07,640 qualified immunity, but also just educating them on you can't put somebody in a 292 00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:11,480 choke call. You can't put your knee into somebody's back and cut off their 293 00:26:11,519 --> 00:26:17,559 breathing. What would you say the most important changes are that need to be 294 00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:22,920 made to help police understand you cannot do this to a person. You will 295 00:26:22,039 --> 00:26:26,799 kill them. I think that they know what it's said, but they don't 296 00:26:26,799 --> 00:26:32,960 believe. They think that they have the false impression that the black people have 297 00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:37,559 gathered superhuman strength and they're going to hurt the police officers, and that's why 298 00:26:37,599 --> 00:26:44,000 they use massive force. Remember all the debts that courring police custody. Usually 299 00:26:44,279 --> 00:26:48,640 it had two or three police officers around putting on the handcuffs, and they're 300 00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:55,279 being punished for not immediately obeying putting hands behind the back to be handcuffed. 301 00:26:55,559 --> 00:26:59,160 They're not a threat to anybody. A couple important things. One is a 302 00:26:59,319 --> 00:27:06,160 high percentage of such encounters and deaths involve people who are acute mental crisis. 303 00:27:06,039 --> 00:27:12,039 A cute mental crisis because they haven't taken their medicine for schizophrenia and their acting 304 00:27:12,079 --> 00:27:18,799 bizarre, or they're highland drug methi emphetamine or something. They're not a danger 305 00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:25,160 to something. They're running around nude in the streets sometimes no weapon on them 306 00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:30,079 and they or they're driving a card that gets a minor violation, which is 307 00:27:30,559 --> 00:27:36,359 and when the police encounter them, instead of treating them gently, they get 308 00:27:36,799 --> 00:27:41,839 angry at them because they didn't obey them. They're not obeying. Starts with 309 00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:44,839 put your hands behind your back, and if you don't do that, that 310 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:48,799 you're now committed a criminal act. See so even though you're called for so 311 00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:56,079 one of the things that should happen, and some jurisdictions appeal getting mental health 312 00:27:56,119 --> 00:28:03,319 workers to go out with police on calls for emotional disturbed people. Police often 313 00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:08,920 know when they're getting called for an EEDP an emotionally disturbed person because their infraction 314 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:12,559 is running around nude or something, they are holding up a bank or something. 315 00:28:12,599 --> 00:28:18,920 They're just and they're not a danger to anybody, but police are not 316 00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:25,599 given time to talk to people. They come. If they take action against 317 00:28:25,599 --> 00:28:29,319 somebody, they have to put handcuffs on them and then they bring them to 318 00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:33,599 the precinct or something. If a person doesn't like handcuffs, as often the 319 00:28:33,759 --> 00:28:38,519 mentally impaired people the cute episodes, they don't even understand what the police are 320 00:28:38,559 --> 00:28:42,640 telling them, and they belong in a hospital or not on a police precinct, 321 00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:48,200 and they get even more agitated when they see when there as about the 322 00:28:48,279 --> 00:28:55,039 handcuffing. So there are ways to make certain rules. I think. Also 323 00:28:55,240 --> 00:29:00,400 what could happen is when many when the medical sappues, do say that they 324 00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:04,920 died because of the compression, some kind of impairment. Usually in my experience, 325 00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:11,640 when it goes to that they are they're investigated by internally. Internal investigations 326 00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:17,920 usually find that they acted appointing proper procedure. It's unfortunate that happened, but 327 00:29:18,599 --> 00:29:22,279 that's the end of it. Or if it goes through a grand jury, 328 00:29:22,319 --> 00:29:26,720 the grand jury doesn't bring down any indictment. And that's because, as they 329 00:29:26,759 --> 00:29:33,200 say, a disc attorney can indict ham Sandwich, but and it also cannot 330 00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:44,160 atdict a serial killer. The interesting thing Brionn Lady in Kentucky who was shot 331 00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:48,160 perfectly innocent, and when it's put in the grand jury, they didn't come 332 00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:53,160 down with an indictment, and finally one of the grand jurors broke their oath 333 00:29:53,599 --> 00:29:57,480 as we do anything, because the disk attorney just didn't ask us to do 334 00:29:57,519 --> 00:30:04,400 anything about the indicting. The grand jury in this country is secret because that's 335 00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:08,680 the way it used to be. In seventeen seventy six when we established the 336 00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:15,400 court the British systems. In nineteen thirties, Britain got rid of the secret 337 00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:19,680 grand jury. Anything that goes to the criminal justice investigation has to be made 338 00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:26,599 public. Brionna Taylor. Still to this day nobody's I think somebody one of 339 00:30:26,599 --> 00:30:30,200 the officers Risks was slapped because he one of the bullets went into the next 340 00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:36,039 apartment, but not because it was killed, and that there's no need. 341 00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:44,640 The grand jury itself is a place where deaths and police custody disappear. So 342 00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:48,119 that's if the police know that they can be held responsible, if the prosecutor 343 00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:56,079 knows that, if there's a national database where cases are reviewed, somebody looking 344 00:30:56,079 --> 00:31:00,880 over the shoulder, that'll go a long way to diminishing outrageous behavior. Do 345 00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:04,640 you think things can be changed for the better? Certainly, we've seen a 346 00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:10,480 lot of cases in the last couple of years where people have died at the 347 00:31:10,559 --> 00:31:15,680 hands of police in a way that looks successive. As we discussed George Floyd, 348 00:31:15,839 --> 00:31:22,960 Michael Brown, other people saying I can't breathe and they're being restrained by 349 00:31:22,119 --> 00:31:27,400 three, four or five officers. Can we make the systemic changes that we 350 00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:33,720 need to. I think there's been slow progress. Things aren't as bad in 351 00:31:33,839 --> 00:31:37,920 this criminal justice system from a racial point of view as they were around the 352 00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:44,440 time of the Civil War. We've gradually made some back and forth progress, 353 00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:53,640 and I think there can be absolutely an improvement in police obeying proper directions and 354 00:31:53,759 --> 00:32:00,880 proper proper orders. If they knew there was somebody looking into each case, 355 00:32:00,279 --> 00:32:06,240 that would be a national database would be able to look into each case as 356 00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:13,039 appropriate and take action whatever has decided if they find out to someplace or some 357 00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:17,880 person that's repeatedly doing things, or if there has to be some kind of 358 00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:25,720 punishment for improper actions. The problem with the police unions is that a lot 359 00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:30,480 of good things they do, but there's a lot of things that they do 360 00:32:30,559 --> 00:32:36,680 that to protect the membership, and unfortunately some members take advantage of that. 361 00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:42,079 As the English teacher in the room, I do have to ask what is 362 00:32:42,119 --> 00:32:47,279 your writing process like, because you have such a wide range of expertise and 363 00:32:47,319 --> 00:32:52,480 you've had such a storied career, how in the world do you figure out 364 00:32:52,519 --> 00:32:57,559 what you're going to put in one book? There is so much to American 365 00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:01,440 Autopsy. How the world do you go about your writing process? Part of 366 00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:07,599 the I've tried a few books before, but in this to get show how 367 00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:12,799 medical examiner develops and the normal, the usual kind of cases. But with 368 00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:20,640 George Floyd, it brought me down to concentrate on deaths during police encounters and 369 00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:28,400 the failures not only a police and prosecutors, which have been discussed in New 370 00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:35,720 York Times editorials, but also the failures of my business. Among medical examiners, 371 00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:42,160 there's a reluctance to say that death is caused by by police activity because 372 00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:45,240 they know that their buddies and their friends who they meet every day and they 373 00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:51,319 say every day, are a normal work can get punished. And I think 374 00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:58,839 that that this kind of made me focus on deaths where medical examiners are shown 375 00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:02,359 to be part of the problem, and that the medical examiners perhaps have to 376 00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:07,440 be separated from police. We have to be able to be equally available, 377 00:34:07,519 --> 00:34:12,960 for example, to the police, to the prosecutor, as to the disc 378 00:34:13,039 --> 00:34:17,360 attorney. Medical examiners won't, the defense attorneys won't talk to defense attorneys for 379 00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:22,760 example, whereas we're always talking to the disc attorney. We have to be 380 00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:30,960 independent. Science is independent of guilt or innocence friendships. If death shows that 381 00:34:30,199 --> 00:34:35,559 a friend filled somebody, we got to say that. If it shows that 382 00:34:35,639 --> 00:34:39,559 a bad guy was innocent in a certain thing, it doesn't show innocent but 383 00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:45,519 didn't do harmed as charged. We have to say that. And we have 384 00:34:45,639 --> 00:34:50,679 to be guided by science and not by friendship. And the point is we 385 00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:55,159 grow up with being friends with police and disc attorneys that we go in New 386 00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:59,440 York City. When I was in New York City, we would go three 387 00:34:59,519 --> 00:35:02,360 or four afternoons a week. There were two thousand homicides a year in those 388 00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:07,280 days, to the different borrows to give grand jury testimony, to explain to 389 00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:14,679 the disc attorneys what the autopsy means. The autopsy is not self explanatory. 390 00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:20,119 There all kinds of things, just like a legal document does not necessarily clear 391 00:35:20,159 --> 00:35:22,440 to me as a non lawyer. And I think that one of the things 392 00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:29,440 that the defense attorneys especially was that's involving the police are afraid to consult with 393 00:35:29,559 --> 00:35:36,000 the medical examiners because they know from experience that the medical examiners might tell the 394 00:35:36,079 --> 00:35:39,119 disc attorney what our theories of the case are. Kind of things, so 395 00:35:39,159 --> 00:35:47,840 that there's a sharp division between prosecutors and discret and defense attorneys in investigating case. 396 00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:52,920 Instead of being cooperative with everybody's looking for what just the science says. 397 00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:58,920 We just learned via email yesterday from crime Con that you're going to be attending 398 00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:02,159 crime Con. We're very excited about that. But in addition to crime Con, 399 00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:08,039 what is next for you in terms of projects? I'm largely I think 400 00:36:08,119 --> 00:36:13,920 teaching, some teaching and lecturing, but largely writing. And part of my 401 00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:17,960 writing actually is professional writing, that is to review and all doing private work. 402 00:36:19,199 --> 00:36:24,400 Do private work reviewing deaths and increasing number of deaths of coming to my 403 00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:31,360 attention during police activity, and to be able to figure out on a case 404 00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:38,559 by case basis what the pro the facts aren't in a matter, to be 405 00:36:38,639 --> 00:36:44,960 able to testify to a jury, which I tried to do. It doesn't 406 00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:49,519 matter which side calls me. I'm going to say the same thing, and 407 00:36:49,599 --> 00:36:52,840 that's what it should be. It's hard to do that sometimes, but there's 408 00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:59,960 no individual project, unlike I think most of my classmates from medical school now 409 00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:07,039 retiring in Florida to avoid the taxes but playing golf. I never understood golf, 410 00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:12,079 and I like what I'm doing, So that's why, and the miracle 411 00:37:12,199 --> 00:37:16,480 of how the body functions. We're so glad that you're still at it and 412 00:37:16,679 --> 00:37:24,760 still advocating for victims of violent crime and for calling it the way you see 413 00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:30,199 it and the science tells you to see it. Thank you, And it's 414 00:37:30,159 --> 00:37:37,360 a fascinating profession and it needs a lot more forensic pathologist. There aren't enough 415 00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:44,679 for forensic pathologists because people don't want to go into a testifying court and have 416 00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:47,079 some guy criticize you. One side it's gonna love you, and one side 417 00:37:47,079 --> 00:37:53,000 it's going to criticize you. Doctors are used to being criticized and saying you 418 00:37:53,079 --> 00:37:59,159 need to say that that's not true, that the bullet didn't go that way 419 00:37:59,199 --> 00:38:04,920 and the way the police say it went the way my client says, and 420 00:38:06,039 --> 00:38:12,360 that creates hostilities, but then we get thick skin. The book is American 421 00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:17,480 Autopsy One medical examiners decades long fight for racial justice and a broken legal system 422 00:38:17,519 --> 00:38:22,880 that is available now at all of your local book retailers, and we do 423 00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:27,519 encourage you to shop independent bookstores whenever possible. Thank you. You guys are 424 00:38:27,559 --> 00:38:31,559 easy to talk to. This was wonderfall didn't go okay because that maybe I 425 00:38:32,159 --> 00:38:36,440 deviated too much from the question. No, not at all. This was 426 00:38:36,559 --> 00:38:37,920 great, and I just wanted to say, when I was reading it the 427 00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:43,559 other day, your chapter about the Attica prison riots was interesting. Like my 428 00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:46,280 job was on the floor. I had no idea about any of what you've 429 00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:51,159 written about the Attica prison riot. It was so cool to read. Yeah, 430 00:38:51,199 --> 00:38:55,440 and that was what at that time? What that time? I started 431 00:38:55,440 --> 00:39:00,800 out initially in college wanting to I liked I was on the school editor of 432 00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:07,880 the school newspaper, and I wanted to be a journalist, going to journalists. 433 00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:10,440 My mother wouldn't let me. She wanted me to be a doctor. 434 00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:15,159 And at that time there were fifteen daily newspapers in New York sit the five 435 00:39:15,159 --> 00:39:20,239 boroughs, so they were playing jobs for journalists. What are the things that 436 00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:23,079 blew my mind was when I went up to Attica and so all the prisoners. 437 00:39:23,519 --> 00:39:30,360 The New York Times, on page one lead story said that and eight 438 00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:37,719 guards were next were cut by the hostages by the inmates, and I could 439 00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:42,480 see Clinton that was wrong. They were all shot by friendly fire. Wow, 440 00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:47,400 how the New York Times get this wrong? And that has always been 441 00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:51,480 in my mind. It was I read that, I was like, oh 442 00:39:51,519 --> 00:39:54,559 my god, that is crazy, Like it's this has been really interesting. 443 00:39:54,679 --> 00:40:00,159 It's like, here's American history from the point of view that it should be 444 00:40:00,199 --> 00:40:02,039 read from. Yeah, which I really enjoyed. So I'm going to bring 445 00:40:02,039 --> 00:40:05,599 this with me to Crime con and I hope you'll autograph it for me. 446 00:40:05,679 --> 00:40:08,199 Sir. Oh, I would be too. I would be honored to do 447 00:40:08,239 --> 00:40:14,760 that. Great now that I know what you guys look like, we'll track 448 00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:19,480 you down. You're wearing those things around your ears or no, but we 449 00:40:19,519 --> 00:40:22,119 will have lanyards with our names on them, and no, we will make 450 00:40:22,119 --> 00:40:25,360 a point of seeking you out. It's so wonderful to talk with you. 451 00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:30,119 Do you you you're in Connecticut. I'm in Connecticut, and then Christen's in 452 00:40:30,199 --> 00:40:36,280 Virginia. Yeah, and yeah, because are you working Connecticut? Yeah, 453 00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:39,639 we're in beautiful Norfolk, Connecticut in the northwest corner, about two hours and 454 00:40:39,679 --> 00:40:44,239 fifteen minutes north of New York City. That could be beautiful. I have 455 00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:49,360 a lot to with Henry Lee and oh yeah, yeah for a while. 456 00:40:49,639 --> 00:40:53,480 Yeah, he's still going strong. He really, he's amazing. We've enjoyed 457 00:40:53,559 --> 00:40:59,840 him immensely. We actually were able to have dinner with him at Savannah CRIMEX 458 00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:01,800 this past here, like of all the tables in the room, he just 459 00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:05,360 sat down with us and it was like, would you like to talk about 460 00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:07,719 forensics? And we were like yeah, yeah. Was his wife with him, 461 00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:20,480 Angela. She just wrote a book. She wrote a book at someplace 462 00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:25,840 that was interesting and any about the deaths in Croatia. In fact, I 463 00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:30,119 got the book in my have a picture on the cover. On the cover 464 00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:35,320 of it, I wish and I'm on that Henry Lee doing a dig or 465 00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:37,239 something and a couple of people next to him, and it was a photo 466 00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:43,800 of taken when we were in Croatia when they were digging up bodies of people 467 00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:46,480 who were improperly buried there. Yeah, and I have to read it then, 468 00:41:47,039 --> 00:41:51,800 I guess. So. Okay, So we'll look forward to seeing you 469 00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:54,880 in a couple of months at crime time. Yeah, I really do. 470 00:41:55,199 --> 00:42:00,000 And thank you and the at best and maybe we can have a bite together. 471 00:42:00,559 --> 00:42:02,719 Absolutely sounds great. Okay, fine, nine to have to figure out 472 00:42:02,719 --> 00:42:07,840 how to turn this off. Should be a big red button that's going to 473 00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:09,679 do it. For this episode of mind Over Murder. Thank you so much 474 00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:22,960 for listening. We'll see you next time. Mind Over Murder is a production 475 00:42:23,039 --> 00:42:30,159 of Absolute Zero and Another Dog Productions. Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and 476 00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:35,480 Kristin Dilley. Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. Our theme music is 477 00:42:35,519 --> 00:42:40,519 by Kevin McLeod. Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with Coral Space Media. 478 00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:45,400 You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. You can 479 00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:50,000 also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway Murders on Facebook, and finally, 480 00:42:50,159 --> 00:42:53,880 you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at Bill Thomas five six. Thank you 481 00:42:53,920 --> 00:43:20,079 for listening to mind Over Murder. My