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Previously on the Frozen Truth podcast.
A mother and her son went missing in

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November nineteen ninety six, seeming to
have vanished into thin air. Sandra Jacobson's

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abandoned car was found on the banks
of the Missouri River at Bismarck, leading

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Detective Tim Turnbull to conclude that Sandra
and her five year old son, John

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Jacobson had somehow entered the cold water
on their own that night and drowned.

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No trace of their bodies or belongings
have been found in the twenty five years

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since, save one single gold child
sized shoe that was uncovered from the area

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of the river the following day.
The shoe is believed to be John's,

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but that has never been confirmed.
This episode is part two of our conversation

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with Detective Tim Turnbull, who's now
retired. Not only did he serve as

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lead investigator on the case, but
he is one of the very few remaining

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first personal witnesses to the scene of
the abandoned car following Sandra and John's disappearance

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on November sixteenth, nineteen ninety six, and this case was not the first

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or the last missing person's case he
worked during his time in Bismarck. I

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did a couple of letter cases like
that. One of them, guy disappeared,

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was the last seen in death Better, California. But the report was

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taken up here because this is where
it was from. But that guy was

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actually camping, living on the beach
and Californane and it turned out his father

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have done the same thing twenty years
or older. And then there was another

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a woman that was had disappeared that
she whist falling also, So I think

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this particular case that so you're dealing
with now with Sandys as if I'm not

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mistake. The Bismarck Police Department alerted
the public about Sandra and John's disappearance,

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hoping maybe somebody in the area had
seen them, since Detective Turnbull's recollection now

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is that the two were never seen
by anybody again, but I had seen

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a press account of at least one
occasion when Sandra and John might have been

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seen together alive and well, I
never had any any sightings or her anywhere,

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any sightings in John anywhere, you
know, were asking for people.

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They picked them up to let us
know. I don't think maybe she left

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her carling. I walked up on
the road that's something right somewhere. Yeah,

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we didn't never hear that. I
read about one of the articles a

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reported sighting of them at a local
kymart. Do you recall that, you

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know? I really don't, But
if there was, it didn't at all.

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Were there any tips that you followed
that you were initially interested in?

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No, not really nothing to do
anything about it. The question we asked

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in episode one why the lead detective
on this case thought the most likely explanation

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for what happened to Sandre and John
is that they drowned. Well, the

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answer to that question has started to
become more clear to me as I've spoken

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with him. That conclusion seems to
be based on the lack of any other

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explanation. There is no indication that
the two were abducted or that any other

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crime was committed against them, at
least not at that site where the car

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was found. Based on the lack
of public response following. There was no

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indication also that they had run off
for whatever reason, or even that they

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were still alive anywhere, especially as
the years wore on and nobody heard from

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or saw either of them. So
Sandra and John drowned in the river,

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Assuming that for a moment, my
struggle becomes why their bodies or remains haven't

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been found in the twenty five years
since then, And I wondered what Detective

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turn Bowl made of that. Yeah, never remembers. It's pretty treacherous.

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It's more treacherous than people realize at
times. If I remember correctly. He

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was writing pretty fast at this time
too. I don't know why, but

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I think the core might have been
letting extra water out, because sometimes they

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do that in anticipation of the heavy
snow, ice jams and flutting and all

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kinds of stuff. So and that's
not to say that that someday they want

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clime bones now they might really,
I really highly doubt they'll find closing that

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kind of stuff over a lot of
years, but they might. You never

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know. And and I'm sure what
he remains that, I'm all they all

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still, because I'm sure they're all
people posed and the fisher got to and

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taking their everything. So Sandra's parents
gave no indication to Detective Turnball that she

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had consumed any alcohol or narcotics on
that day that she was last seen,

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at least not to their knowledge,
nor did they indicate that she was taking

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any prescription medication for anything that they
knew about. Because Sandra's parents were expecting

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her to return home within moments after
getting gas, police got much more of

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a head start on this missing person's
case than normal. Even so, the

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car was not found at the boat
launch of the Missouri River until the following

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day. We don't know for certain
how long Sandra's car had been there.

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Of course, we don't know for
certain how Sandra's car got there, but

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we can assume that Sandra's car had
been where it was found for at least

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several hours, if not all,
of the twelve hours or so before it

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was found right along with the road, which is on the left side of

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good of marketing of it goes along
the Missouri River. Our people that live

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on riveral manufact there's quite a few
more so novel than it was in eighteen

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ninety six. But there were still
people that were driving by and the card

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was shooting them. I suspect you
just anything. Yeah, it's probably shooting

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there. I don't I don't know
that or anything. I'm looking for that

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cardcation within the police department. You
might recall from episode two, the detective

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Turnbull described the car as being parked
with the keys still in the ignition but

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turned off. I couldn't remember if
the headlights were on or off. But

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one notable recollection of Detective Turnbulls from
the previous episode that you might remember one

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of the car doors was found open. I was the first I'd heard of

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that Sandra's car doubtless would have been
seen by who knows how many bystanders night

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she went missing. The car was
probably parked there for at least a few

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hours, and it would have appeared
all the more conspicuous if the car was

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just sitting there with one of the
doors open, you would think. Still,

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apparently nobody took enough notice of the
car to call police. What does

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the man who spent the most time
investigating this case, Detective Tim Turnbull,

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what does he think happened? You've
already heard his theory in a manner of

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speaking, that mother and son drown
in a raging river that night. But

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how well I'm talking him carrying him
right? Was one of him right hand?

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I would, I would think carrying
him because she ran a boxing line.

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I had not wanted to go that
far. I'm sure it was cold

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aver That audio was a bit difficult
to understand. So here is Detective Turnbull's

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quote. I think she either walked
in, carrying him or was leading him

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by the hand. But I would
think she carried him in because he might

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have balked at not wanting to go
that far. I'm sure it was cold,

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it was novembery him would I would
think carrying him because she ran a

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boxing line had not want to go
that far. I'm sure it was told.

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How do we begin to understand this
theory of what happened to Sandra and

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John Jacobson. I mean, rational
theories need to make sense to a rational

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mind. And I'll forgive you if
you can't begin to understand how that scenario

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of Detective turnbulls is possible, because
I can't really either, not the rational

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part of me anyway. I can
understand technically how such a thing might happen,

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but I have no better comprehension of
a mother walking into the river,

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leading her five year old son into
the November waters, into the cold waters

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that night. Then I would have
any common apprehension of like an alien civilization

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or some high level mathematical concept decades
beyond my abilities. What I mean to

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say is I am not equipped to
begin to process the proposition that a mother

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carried her presumably conscious child into a
river at night in November and drowned him

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and then drowned herself. And that
second part there, that's also important.

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If the name Andrea Yates has not
entered your mind to this point in the

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story, she was the mother in
Texas who confessed to drowning her five children

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in the bathtub in two thousand and
one. And if you're a parent,

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as i am, I have a
seven year old son and a four year

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old daughter, I'd submit it's impossible
to forget that story once you've heard it.

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But that is not what happened here, is it. Sandra also drowned

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herself, at least in this theory, assuming for a moment that Sandra's intention

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was to kill herself at some point. It is just statistics and human nature

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of that. Drowning is a very
rare form of suicide. It's about five

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percent of all suicides, depending on
geography. If you don't have ready access

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to significant water, that number drops
to one percent or two percent of all

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suicides being drowning. Consider also that
suicide by drowning is much more common in

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lakes, sometimes even the ocean,
far less common in rivers. Everything under

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the sun has happened a thousand times
before. I'm not saying, of course,

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that just because the situation that Detective
Turnbull describes is exceptionally rare doesn't mean

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it didn't happen that way. But
I am struck by the massive illogic of

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that probability, if I'm expressing myself
correctly. But Detective Turnbull, the man

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who can be said to be I
think the standing expert on this case to

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date, has been convinced of that
theory for twenty five years. Now.

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What I, as a parent have
the hardest time wrapping my mind around is

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taking your kid, apparently and drowning
them in a river. Well, my

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thought on that is she maybe paranoid
and didn't want to leave them behind,

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keep fall in the hands of the
cult. That's That's about the only thing

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I can to go. Where did
you leave this investigation? Do you do?

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You see this as you basically got
it pegged, but you can't close

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it until there's some resolution. Yeah, there has. In fact, I'm

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sure it's still in one of the
detective desks out there. You just every

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once a while you do it check
of course, now it's getting hard to

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check because their parents are gone.
You know, every case has to come

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to some sort of a conclusion,
and there's really no conclusion to this case

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because we don't really know what happened
to them. I mean, they were

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they were, was it was it
accidental? When intentional? And are the

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part of these actually dead? And
my guests would be after twenty five years,

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yes, because I just can't see
her not contacting her other son.

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And I'm pretty sure I know that
John's been with the National Edition as Asians

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and question. An age progressed photo
of John was created by the National Center

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for Missing and Exploited Children. He
would be twenty nine years old today.

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At some point I thought that we'd
do a Q and a Tips Theories kind

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of an episode, but we're not
going to do that yet anyway for this

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season. Having said that, if
you're listening to these two episodes with Detective

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Turnbull and something strikes you or you
have a thought or a theory or just

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an idea substantiated unsubstantiated, you know, speculation or whatever, I'd love to

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hear that, because I'm sort of
compiling a list of things that we eventually

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need to try to tackle in this
case because we are doing a lot of

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the bushwhacking, the trailblazing. By
we, I mean you and I,

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because it hasn't been covered or talked
about this case very much in the last

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twenty five years. So please send
me any thoughts or ideas that you have

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via email and we can correspond about
those. It is never a bad thing

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to get different perspectives on cases like
this. And one of the things on

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my oddities list is her driver's license. Sandra's driver's license, so it's missing

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apparently the only thing missing from her
purse that's on the passenger seat in her

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car when it's found, And I'm
trying to come up with yet some good

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explanations for where that driver's license might
be, regardless of what happens to Sandra

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and John for the moment. Is
that something that when obviously you go pay

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for gas, you have to get
some money out of your wallet wallet.

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I assume it's going to be in
her purse because it's not missing, But

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you know why, is the license
free from the wallet? Is that something

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you carry around in your pockets for
one reason or another. Is that something

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that has gone missing, lost of
the last two or three weeks, and

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maybe she's driving around operating without a
license driver's license. To me, I'm

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not sure that it's important, but
it certainly sticks out that what has separated

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her license from her wallet? Did
she even keep the license in her wallet?

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Some people have different habits when it
comes to where they keep credit cards,

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cash, all that. So that's
something on my list. There's also

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something I want to mention that hasn't
been mentioned so far, now that you

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know sort of the story about that
Sat. Day night where she has called

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the Bismarck police. We believe before
she arrived at her parents' house talking about

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this cult, she was supposed to
be at her parents' house at five pm,

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and by media reports, seven thirty
is when she eventually arrived. So

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we do need to keep in mind
that she was late to her parents' house,

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possibly, if not, probably having
something to do with the things that

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she was talking about to the Bismarck
Police Department on the phone. And I

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also should make clear that and this
I guess is not fully clear to me,

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but Sandra, if you were wondering, was married previously I think twice.

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I'm not sure about that. I
should say but I know she was

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married at least twice previously. Her
first husband that I know about anyway,

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was the victim of a homicide himself
in two thousand and five, so this

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is long after Sandra disappeared. But
her first husband later was run over by

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his own car in Tuttle, I
believe North Dakota, and they ruled that

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homicide, but they never saw that
case. So that is Sandra's older son's

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father. The second marriage John's father
had only recently ended prior to her disappearance,

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or I'm not sure that they were
even divorced. Frankly, I think

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the separation was still in progress,
so she was in the process of leaving

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her husband or vice versa. The
marriage was ending at that time. That

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is a factor that was looked into
by police as well, and sang percentage

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of life, but I atention it
is my opinion Sandra had only recently three

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months before she disappeared, separated from
John Jacobson's father, and so obviously her

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ex husband was questioned following the disappearance, but Detective Turnbull told me that John's

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dad had a solid alibi. But
Sandra's family never believed that she and John

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drowned that night, not very much. I did call Noll and to what

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happens. I had the case on
my desk until I was transferred to the

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division to somebody else, and that's
you know. And we did have meant

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in contact with the family for a
while. And then the case, even

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cold, deserves nothing else to do
nothing nor the leads to fallow. Of

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course, the river sometimes to mus
dead. In twenty sixteen, an adults

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human jaw bone was found in the
Missouri River nearby. Its origins remain unknown,

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but a professor at North Dakota State
University put the jaw bone at about

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one hundred years old and so very
likely not belonging to Sandra. So far

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and frozen truth. We've already checked
to one box and speaking with some law

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enforcement in this case, but there
are plenty more people that we need to

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speak to this season, so I'll
be doing that over the next few weeks,

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and eventually of course traveling to Bismarck
myself. But justa heads up now,

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the next episode in our schedule,
episode four, will not be released

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until Sunday, April eighteenth, so
it's going to be a little while.

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00:18:30.319 --> 00:18:33.559
Just giving you some fair warning but
in the meantime, if you're able to

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00:18:33.599 --> 00:18:37.160
support the show on Patreon, you
can join us there. I'll be posting

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00:18:37.279 --> 00:18:41.559
exclusive audio and content to the five
dollar level as it comes in, so

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you'll be able to track our progress
up there. You can find the Patreon

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link as well as my email address
in the show notes. I also want

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to thank Detective Turnbull for his time. He's also agreed to show me the

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side of the car in person while
I'm in Bismarck, and he's been exceptionally

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helpful and I can see that he'd
love to have some kind of final resolution

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of this case as much as anyone
would at this point. And along those

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lines, just a moment of reflection
before we close. These are two people,

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regardless of what happens to them,
Sandra and of course a five year

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old John Jacobson, and they now
have precious few people remaining who would still

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remember their loss. And that is
the one thing that has reassured me in

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this season so far that we're on
the right path. I don't know what

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we're going to find, I don't
know what we're not going to find on

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00:19:29.559 --> 00:19:33.880
this season of Frozen Truth, but
we are caring and we are trying,

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00:19:34.599 --> 00:19:41.680
and by listening through you will become
another person who somewhere out there is still

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thinking about those two people and asking
the question of what happened to Sandra and

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John? And I think at the
very least that is a bit of good

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that we can do as we go
forward here together. So we'll talk to

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you in about a month Patreon,
sooner than that. I'm Scott Fullard.

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Thank you all for listening. Jody
Loomis, Jessica Baggin, Kelly Anne Prosser,

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00:20:04.680 --> 00:20:10.799
Michelle Martinko, Christie Merak, Carolyne
Rose. Do these names mean anything

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00:20:10.839 --> 00:20:15.079
to you all? These people are
murder victims whose cases were called for decades

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00:20:15.359 --> 00:20:21.319
until recently they were solved by investigative
genetic genealogy. This new crime solving tool

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00:20:21.440 --> 00:20:25.000
is rapidly providing us with the names
of elusive killers, but each one of

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00:20:25.079 --> 00:20:29.599
these cases is unique and worth exploring. Each episode of the DNA I D

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00:20:29.759 --> 00:20:33.640
podcast will focus on one newly solved
case and look at the story behind the

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00:20:33.720 --> 00:20:37.359
headline. Who was the victim,
who was their killer, and why did

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00:20:37.400 --> 00:20:41.839
this tragic crime occur. It's brought
to you by ABJACT Entertainment, hosted and

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00:20:41.920 --> 00:20:45.039
produced by me Jessica Bettencourt and co
produced by Mike Morford. Make sure you

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00:20:45.160 --> 00:20:49.480
subscribe to DNA I d Today wherever
you listen to podcasts, so you don't

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00:20:49.519 --> 00:20:51.640
miss a single episode