WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:05.360 The first wave of investors who are coming into this are self directed investors. 2 00:00:05.879 --> 00:00:10.599 Right next, what will happen is the track record of these bitcoin atfs will 3 00:00:10.640 --> 00:00:14.880 get built up. People will see how they track to the underlying price and 4 00:00:14.919 --> 00:00:20.879 bitcoint how the orderly creation and redemption of shares works, how the secondary tradings 5 00:00:20.920 --> 00:00:25.280 of shares works, and they will gain confidence in the instrument. And then 6 00:00:25.480 --> 00:00:29.800 over the coming six months to a year, you will start to see these 7 00:00:29.920 --> 00:00:34.759 products being listed onto the wealth platforms. You'll see them start to be included 8 00:00:34.840 --> 00:00:39.799 into model portfolios, and that's when you'll start to see the next wave of 9 00:00:39.920 --> 00:00:50.159 money coming in. 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Welcome to the Thinking 18 00:01:23.359 --> 00:01:27.959 Crypto podcast, your home for cryptocurrency news and interviews. With me today is 19 00:01:29.000 --> 00:01:34.239 Sandy Call, who's the head of Digital Assets and industry Advisory Services at Franklin 20 00:01:34.319 --> 00:01:37.879 Templeton. Sandy, great to have you on. Thank you so much. 21 00:01:37.920 --> 00:01:41.079 It's a pleasure to be here. Yeah, I'm excited to speak with you, 22 00:01:41.159 --> 00:01:45.159 Sandy. I've seen your other interviews. I'm very familiar with Franklin Templeton 23 00:01:45.280 --> 00:01:49.519 and the services and things you offer, so really excited to hear about the 24 00:01:49.640 --> 00:01:56.239 journey of Franklin moving towards a bigcoin, ETF and much more. Let's start 25 00:01:56.280 --> 00:02:00.280 with your background, where you're from, where'd you grow up? I grew 26 00:02:00.319 --> 00:02:04.480 up in Washington, DC area and had moved to New York City right after 27 00:02:04.519 --> 00:02:08.960 college, and I started in the commodity market, so the volatility of crypto 28 00:02:09.159 --> 00:02:14.759 was no stranger to me. Spent a lot of my career really focusing on 29 00:02:15.000 --> 00:02:21.280 very volatile marketplaces and commodities, specifically the soft so I did coffee, sugar, 30 00:02:21.520 --> 00:02:24.240 cocoa, cotton, and frozen concentrate orange juice. It really is a 31 00:02:24.280 --> 00:02:30.719 thing. From there, I went on and I started thinking about technology and 32 00:02:30.719 --> 00:02:36.280 how technology was changing the delivery of financial services. I began to do consulting 33 00:02:36.879 --> 00:02:44.280 around how technology was changing our ability to create portfolios, deliver portfolios, run 34 00:02:44.400 --> 00:02:52.800 investments, provide in superior investment returns, and really started creating thought leadership about 35 00:02:52.800 --> 00:02:58.840 this to advise the big global asset managers and wealth managers on how to think 36 00:02:58.879 --> 00:03:04.879 about their businesses. And so I really came across cryptocurrencies in the early twenty 37 00:03:04.919 --> 00:03:10.919 tens. Wrote my first big report on tokenization in twenty seventeen and took that 38 00:03:12.000 --> 00:03:15.800 out to the industry, really talking about the potential for this to disrupt and 39 00:03:15.879 --> 00:03:22.560 transform the traditional financial markets. And not a very happy, happily received report 40 00:03:22.599 --> 00:03:28.479 back in twenty seventeen, But I think a lot of people really began to 41 00:03:28.599 --> 00:03:32.919 think about it then and those who really seized it. Franklin Templeton was one 42 00:03:32.960 --> 00:03:38.479 of the firms that really seized this opportunity most aggressively. I got to know 43 00:03:38.560 --> 00:03:42.599 the team at Franklin Templeton and over the next few years, was so impressed 44 00:03:42.639 --> 00:03:46.680 with the work they were doing and actually asked to join and joined in twenty 45 00:03:46.719 --> 00:03:51.159 twenty two. So it's been a great experience to really be a part of 46 00:03:51.719 --> 00:03:57.000 not just thinking about writing about through with thought leadership perspective, but actually helping 47 00:03:57.039 --> 00:04:00.639 to make the future happen. Well, Sandy, you were certainly ahead of 48 00:04:00.680 --> 00:04:05.439 the curve talking about tokenization in twenty seventeen when this was all still very new 49 00:04:05.479 --> 00:04:12.240 for a lot of folks. You know, what was the genesis or inspiration 50 00:04:13.360 --> 00:04:17.199 for you to jump to bitcoin? But we can put assets and tokenize on 51 00:04:17.240 --> 00:04:25.759 the blockchain. Yeah. I thought bitcoin was so fascinating because we saw networks 52 00:04:25.800 --> 00:04:30.360 taking over so much of what was happening in day to day activity and commerce, 53 00:04:30.920 --> 00:04:38.839 and this whole network technology was really showing that once you start generating network 54 00:04:38.920 --> 00:04:44.480 effects, there really is this snowball effect and that the community that comes together 55 00:04:44.759 --> 00:04:48.279 through a network is really a vast resource. Right, So that was the 56 00:04:48.319 --> 00:04:54.600 first thing that really intrigued me. I think that my aha moment for the 57 00:04:54.680 --> 00:05:00.639 transition to tokenization and the broader cryptocommunity and the impacts of it would have on 58 00:05:00.720 --> 00:05:05.399 traditional finance came when I started to understand smart contracts and how they work. 59 00:05:05.639 --> 00:05:12.600 Because the biggest issues you have in finance is that in traditional finance, is 60 00:05:12.639 --> 00:05:16.279 that for a lot of instruments, the contract that governs the instrument and the 61 00:05:16.319 --> 00:05:23.839 instrument itself are two separate things, and so you spend so much time reconciling 62 00:05:24.040 --> 00:05:28.800 and trying to keep these two separate items in sync with each other. And 63 00:05:28.839 --> 00:05:33.079 that's where the errors come in. That's where the inefficiencies and the system come 64 00:05:33.120 --> 00:05:39.800 in. And so you know, being able to eliminate those frictions just it 65 00:05:39.839 --> 00:05:44.319 was an AHA moment for me that really opened my eyes as to the combination 66 00:05:44.439 --> 00:05:48.079 of blockchain, the network it builds, and this transferability of assets that can 67 00:05:48.160 --> 00:05:55.319 really start to become very high velocity. That just it made so much sense 68 00:05:55.360 --> 00:05:59.920 to me that this is where the future was going ahead. Now we see 69 00:06:00.079 --> 00:06:06.120 tokenization is becoming a much dominent initiative for many folks that we've seen Larry Fink 70 00:06:06.160 --> 00:06:12.360 and many folks on TV talk about it. What is your outlook for tokenization 71 00:06:12.639 --> 00:06:16.480 and the fact that we're going to have stocks, bonds, real estate fractionalization 72 00:06:16.759 --> 00:06:21.000 and correct me if I'm wrong here. It could have twenty four to seven 73 00:06:21.040 --> 00:06:25.720 trading because of the blockchain, no opening and closing bell, you know, 74 00:06:25.759 --> 00:06:29.800 what's your outlook for tokenization. Yeah, so, I think this is the 75 00:06:29.800 --> 00:06:34.639 most exciting part of what's the crypto domain has really initiated, and I think 76 00:06:34.680 --> 00:06:40.319 a lot of people are missing the big story, and that is the innovation 77 00:06:40.480 --> 00:06:46.759 and the creativity from the crypto exchange is crossing over and for the first time 78 00:06:46.800 --> 00:06:54.120 in fifty years, we're starting to see the core financial market infrastructure that stocks 79 00:06:54.199 --> 00:06:58.600 run on, bonds run on, funds run on, right, the clearing 80 00:06:58.800 --> 00:07:06.040 houses, the settlement organizations, the payment organizations, all of these traditional financial 81 00:07:06.040 --> 00:07:13.279 market infrastructure players are being transformed because now we are seeing the adoption and of 82 00:07:13.399 --> 00:07:16.959 blockchain. We are seeing these new principles of being able to put cash and 83 00:07:17.040 --> 00:07:23.120 assets on the same ledger. We're seeing the emergence of a digital wallet as 84 00:07:23.199 --> 00:07:29.680 a new piece of financial market infrastructure. This is really going to change the 85 00:07:29.720 --> 00:07:34.279 way that the traditional financial markets work, and in doing so, it's making 86 00:07:34.319 --> 00:07:43.360 them completely interoperable with the crypto exchanges and the crypto ecosystem. So it's going 87 00:07:43.399 --> 00:07:47.240 to be this very interesting merger of the two that I think you're starting to 88 00:07:47.279 --> 00:07:51.600 see that level of cooperation. I think it's going to become more advanced, 89 00:07:53.480 --> 00:07:58.519 but what's interesting is whether they agree with the principles of crypto and the opportunity 90 00:07:58.519 --> 00:08:03.600 there or not. The true additional financial market ecosystem is starting to move on 91 00:08:03.720 --> 00:08:07.839 to crypto like rails, and that's going to be a huge transformation globally. 92 00:08:09.480 --> 00:08:15.759 So do you see certain markets or asset classes that are let's say specific to 93 00:08:15.759 --> 00:08:20.319 the United States becoming truly global that I can be in any part of the 94 00:08:20.319 --> 00:08:24.360 world. If I have Internet connection and I have access to the platforms, 95 00:08:24.680 --> 00:08:28.680 I can buy a fraction of a real estate in a building in Manhattan, 96 00:08:30.120 --> 00:08:33.039 and I don't know, I feel like the possibilities are endless here. It's 97 00:08:33.080 --> 00:08:37.440 exponential, I guess it's the word, because you have capital coming in from 98 00:08:37.519 --> 00:08:41.279 every part of the world and a truly global market. And it could be 99 00:08:41.759 --> 00:08:46.559 secondary markets off this because if I hold those fractionalized shares or if you want 100 00:08:46.600 --> 00:08:50.519 to call it, that, I can lend them out or do types of 101 00:08:50.679 --> 00:08:56.639 DeFi activities. Am I off base there? Not at all? In fact, 102 00:08:56.799 --> 00:09:01.000 I think that this is definitely the way we are headed it. The 103 00:09:01.039 --> 00:09:05.279 one thing I will say that we need to get there right is right now, 104 00:09:05.360 --> 00:09:11.120 what limits a lot of financial transactions is the need to do almost manual 105 00:09:11.639 --> 00:09:18.480 know your customer anti money laundering review of the counterparties to a transaction to make 106 00:09:18.519 --> 00:09:24.879 sure that this isn't an illegal transaction being used for illicit purposes, and that's 107 00:09:24.919 --> 00:09:30.960 a very manually intensive process. Still today, I think the opportunity with digital 108 00:09:31.000 --> 00:09:35.639 wallets is going to be to begin to attach the digital identity to the wallet, 109 00:09:37.120 --> 00:09:41.679 so that once I have that digital identity that allows me to be properly 110 00:09:41.759 --> 00:09:46.600 identified and my credentials to be checked, then the vision you painted is going 111 00:09:46.639 --> 00:09:52.320 to become completely possible. Anywhere I live, anywhere in the world, any 112 00:09:52.360 --> 00:09:56.039 place where I have an Internet connection, I should be able to access any 113 00:09:56.200 --> 00:10:01.480 marketplace that is of interest to me, and the asset that I purchased should 114 00:10:01.559 --> 00:10:05.679 become much more leverageable in terms of being able to loan them, stake them, 115 00:10:07.600 --> 00:10:11.440 use them in define transactions. There's going to be I think, a 116 00:10:11.519 --> 00:10:18.639 lot more personal ability to take the assets in your possession and make them much 117 00:10:18.679 --> 00:10:24.279 more utile and make them something that you can really use in many different ways 118 00:10:24.320 --> 00:10:28.879 to get more benefit from. Now, you mentioned digital identity, and certainly 119 00:10:28.960 --> 00:10:31.559 that's the direction we're headed in, and like you said, there needs to 120 00:10:31.559 --> 00:10:35.320 be kycaml and all these things involved as we head into this brave new world, 121 00:10:37.720 --> 00:10:43.000 and I wonder if our identities on the blockchain will be interoperable with different 122 00:10:43.000 --> 00:10:48.360 platforms. And here's an example. I can use the exchange to buy the 123 00:10:48.399 --> 00:10:54.080 token ice stocks and so forth. But that's same identity is also tied into 124 00:10:54.080 --> 00:10:56.639 my social profile, so that the one hundred people who are trying to impersonate 125 00:10:56.720 --> 00:11:03.840 me is eliminate as well, and people can actually verify that's me on x 126 00:11:03.960 --> 00:11:09.600 or LinkedIn. And then does it tie into what we're seeing in the supermarkets 127 00:11:09.679 --> 00:11:13.639 where I go in my palm or I don't know my eye or something to 128 00:11:13.799 --> 00:11:16.799 verify that is indeed me. Do you see a connection with all these things 129 00:11:16.799 --> 00:11:20.519 because of the blockchain? Yeah, I think that's going to all come together. 130 00:11:20.639 --> 00:11:24.960 I mean, I'm not exactly sure. There's a few different technologies that 131 00:11:24.039 --> 00:11:30.759 people are experimenting with to get us to that point, but the intent on 132 00:11:30.799 --> 00:11:35.519 all these technologies is the same. My digital identity is something that should be 133 00:11:35.600 --> 00:11:39.480 able to be verifiably unique to me. It's something that should be able to 134 00:11:39.559 --> 00:11:45.200 be exchanged in a transaction so that there is certainty that I am the one 135 00:11:46.360 --> 00:11:52.879 initiating or receiving that transaction, and I should be able to then take back 136 00:11:52.120 --> 00:11:56.639 my identity and all the data that is linked to it, to have control 137 00:11:56.720 --> 00:12:01.759 over that data and make my own terminations about what to do with that data, 138 00:12:01.799 --> 00:12:07.840 including selling it through data brokers and data marts to bring in additional income 139 00:12:07.840 --> 00:12:11.799 for myself. So I see all of that coming together. We're probably still 140 00:12:11.799 --> 00:12:16.720 a few years from finding the winning technology there, but there's so much innovation 141 00:12:16.879 --> 00:12:22.799 happening in that space in particular, and you're already starting to see this idea 142 00:12:22.000 --> 00:12:30.120 of accredited investors being accredited on the blockchain and being able to check that accreditation 143 00:12:30.279 --> 00:12:33.480 much more easily. So we're already seeing, I think, the first steps 144 00:12:33.519 --> 00:12:37.360 in that direction. It's fascinating, And I think of the movie Minority Report 145 00:12:37.399 --> 00:12:43.360 where the character walks into the store and through his retina scad hello Jack or 146 00:12:43.399 --> 00:12:46.120 what I forgot his name, would you like to check out this product or 147 00:12:46.120 --> 00:12:52.240 whatever it is? And it's like fascinating, it's incredible, but also it's 148 00:12:52.240 --> 00:12:56.960 almost a little bit draconian. And maybe it's just the change element, right, 149 00:12:56.039 --> 00:13:00.919 human beings don't like change. What are your thoughts on that look I'm 150 00:13:00.919 --> 00:13:03.960 a huge sci fi fan, so for years have been waiting for this world. 151 00:13:05.120 --> 00:13:11.200 Right. I do think that the piece that people miss in all of 152 00:13:11.200 --> 00:13:15.600 this is that once my identity is linked to me and my data is linked 153 00:13:15.639 --> 00:13:20.840 to me, I choose what to share. One of the reasons we're bombarded 154 00:13:20.919 --> 00:13:26.759 today and one of the I think core expectations in that movie Minority Report is 155 00:13:26.799 --> 00:13:30.919 that it was the the companies, the corporations that own your data, and 156 00:13:31.000 --> 00:13:33.840 so they could identify you and start to match all their data to you. 157 00:13:33.919 --> 00:13:39.320 And that is indeed what is happening in Web two today. But I think 158 00:13:39.360 --> 00:13:43.840 that with Web three, what starts to happen is privacy gets put back into 159 00:13:43.919 --> 00:13:48.200 place and I can choose. So if it's a store I really love, 160 00:13:48.440 --> 00:13:52.200 maybe I want those discount coupons, or I want that greeting when I come 161 00:13:52.240 --> 00:13:54.240 in, but I might not want it in public, or I might not 162 00:13:54.360 --> 00:13:58.759 want it as I'm walking down the sidewalk. Right, So, I think 163 00:13:58.840 --> 00:14:01.759 that you're going to start to be able to have much more individual control, 164 00:14:01.919 --> 00:14:05.559 and you yourself aren't even going to have to administer. And I think all 165 00:14:05.600 --> 00:14:09.720 this new AI is going to allow us each to have our own digital assistance 166 00:14:11.240 --> 00:14:15.960 that are much more personal than today's kind of Siri or Elektra Alexa. It's 167 00:14:16.000 --> 00:14:18.919 going to be Sandy's digital assistant, and I'm going to be able to have 168 00:14:20.480 --> 00:14:24.159 shared with my digital assistant the levels of privacy I want around different types of 169 00:14:24.200 --> 00:14:30.399 transaction categories in my life. That's such a great point because to your to 170 00:14:30.440 --> 00:14:31.720 what you're saying. You know, there's been a lot of oh no, 171 00:14:31.759 --> 00:14:35.879 here's all the downfalls or the pitfalls, or to watch out for this, 172 00:14:35.000 --> 00:14:39.240 you know, be worried about this. But it's like you said, it 173 00:14:39.240 --> 00:14:41.279 will help us to take back control of our privacy because right now, I 174 00:14:41.320 --> 00:14:48.000 mean, it's ridiculous right keys today, Yeah, I mean it's crazy, 175 00:14:48.039 --> 00:14:52.399 and I you know, even as a content producer, I have so many 176 00:14:52.399 --> 00:14:56.360 people impersonating me and messaging people and they can't verify you know at first gland 177 00:14:56.440 --> 00:15:01.279 sometimes is that really Tony or is that someone else? So it's and then 178 00:15:01.320 --> 00:15:05.720 you have all these data breaches out there from different companies, I mean even 179 00:15:05.759 --> 00:15:09.120 some in the crypto space hardware wallets, and it's like, oh when will 180 00:15:09.200 --> 00:15:11.639 this end? We need to get it on the blockchain. Yeah, And 181 00:15:11.679 --> 00:15:18.399 that's where I think this merging of my biometric data with my digital data, 182 00:15:18.440 --> 00:15:26.240 with my blockchain verified data, all linked to the only transaction mechanism that I 183 00:15:26.320 --> 00:15:30.720 have authorized, which is going to be my digital wallet. I think that's 184 00:15:30.759 --> 00:15:35.000 where this comes together in such a new way, and that digital wallet will 185 00:15:35.080 --> 00:15:41.759 hold the documentation that actually verifies my digital identity and can be checked, right, 186 00:15:41.840 --> 00:15:45.960 And so I think that's going to be the key, and I think 187 00:15:46.000 --> 00:15:48.080 that that is where we're heading. And the point is that it's not going 188 00:15:48.120 --> 00:15:52.919 to be a central authority that checks it. It's going to be me that's 189 00:15:52.000 --> 00:15:56.879 controlling the access, and only when I choose to give access can people see 190 00:15:56.879 --> 00:16:02.879 it. Yeah, that's credible and I can't wait for that. And I'm 191 00:16:02.879 --> 00:16:07.200 sure it's going to tie into government services and voting will be regardless of what 192 00:16:07.240 --> 00:16:10.679 side of alier on. I think we want to make sure we have fair 193 00:16:11.000 --> 00:16:15.399 elections and there's no problems, but like the digital identity on the blockchain will 194 00:16:15.399 --> 00:16:18.480 solve a lot of that. And yeah, it's just an incredible feature. 195 00:16:18.519 --> 00:16:23.559 Anyway, I need to get back to the bitcoiny tail. Tell us about 196 00:16:23.759 --> 00:16:27.759 Franklin Templeton. For those who don't know history and the financial services, you 197 00:16:27.799 --> 00:16:33.039 offer. Yeah. So, first off, Franklin Templeton is a seventy six 198 00:16:33.120 --> 00:16:36.960 year old company, and I really want to stress that because you know, 199 00:16:37.039 --> 00:16:41.720 you don't exist in a marketplace for seventy six years if you can't innovate. 200 00:16:41.080 --> 00:16:45.279 And I think that's a really important point. Sometimes people think traditional finance and 201 00:16:45.279 --> 00:16:48.480 they think, oh, old, boring, stodgy, but they've got to 202 00:16:48.519 --> 00:16:55.879 remember these firms have had to face technology challenges decade after decade after decade, 203 00:16:56.320 --> 00:16:59.919 right, And so the only way you survive in an environment like that is 204 00:17:00.080 --> 00:17:03.880 to be able to innovate, right. And I think that that is important 205 00:17:03.880 --> 00:17:10.440 to keep in mind when you think about the Bitcoin etf because this new opportunity 206 00:17:10.440 --> 00:17:15.279 has come along, right, Bitcoin itself is only fifteen years old. Most 207 00:17:15.319 --> 00:17:19.559 of the digital ecosystem is ten years old or less. Yet these traditional financial 208 00:17:19.599 --> 00:17:26.119 managers, particularly Franklin Templeton, spotted this opportunity built down our capabilities. We 209 00:17:26.440 --> 00:17:33.839 started working on blockchain in twenty eighteen. We actually are running our own node 210 00:17:33.880 --> 00:17:40.119 operations and we're acting as transaction verifiers. We are participating. We hold coins 211 00:17:40.160 --> 00:17:45.079 in our own wallets, we stake those coins on the networks that require proof 212 00:17:45.079 --> 00:17:49.119 of state. We have our own research teams that are engaged in doing research 213 00:17:49.160 --> 00:17:56.119 on coin level opportunities. We're putting together multi coin portfolios. So we've really 214 00:17:56.240 --> 00:18:00.480 embraced this space and sought to be a participant and really understand and how it 215 00:18:00.559 --> 00:18:03.839 operates. And now with the Bitcoin ETF, we've been able to bring this 216 00:18:04.000 --> 00:18:11.440 new pool of expertise around our digital asset unit together with our market leading ETF 217 00:18:11.519 --> 00:18:17.079 franchise where we have over twenty billion in assets under management. So we've been 218 00:18:17.119 --> 00:18:22.240 able to bring together these two pools of expertise from our trad FI world and 219 00:18:22.279 --> 00:18:27.359 our digital world and create this new Bitcoin ETF offering. And for us, 220 00:18:27.400 --> 00:18:34.640 it's a great gateway for those who are interested and trying to understand the exposure 221 00:18:34.759 --> 00:18:41.039 they might get to the new what we're calling protocol economy that we think bitcoin 222 00:18:41.200 --> 00:18:45.400 was the originator of. But it's also a way for them to do that 223 00:18:45.519 --> 00:18:51.079 in a wrapper that can sit inside their brokerage account that they're familiar with, 224 00:18:51.160 --> 00:18:55.799 that they know the sec backs right. So we think it's a perfect blending 225 00:18:55.839 --> 00:19:00.279 of different expertise and we think that the traditional financial firms, particularly Franklin Templeton, 226 00:19:02.440 --> 00:19:06.519 work quick to notice this opportunity, because you don't survive if you don't 227 00:19:06.519 --> 00:19:12.200 innovate, and embracing new marketplaces and growth opportunities is our responsibility as an asset 228 00:19:12.240 --> 00:19:18.240 manager looking to help our clients capture the best investment returns we can possibly provide 229 00:19:18.279 --> 00:19:22.000 them. So I'm very proud of the firm. I'm very excited about what 230 00:19:22.039 --> 00:19:26.799 we're doing, and I think that we will continue to iterate and build our 231 00:19:26.880 --> 00:19:33.200 product suite and create more ways both digitally native and through traditional rappers for people 232 00:19:33.839 --> 00:19:37.640 to access and really enjoy the growth and the innovation happening in this space. 233 00:19:38.319 --> 00:19:44.559 That's incredible, great insight because I wouldn't have thought that Franklin Temple and you 234 00:19:44.599 --> 00:19:48.599 guys are staking tokens and doing all these things in addition to the bigcoins body 235 00:19:48.640 --> 00:19:55.839 TF You mentioned that you are self custodying your own crypto assets. Are you 236 00:19:55.880 --> 00:20:00.079 also using the outside custodians or you're fully custodying your own assets? Oh no, 237 00:20:00.079 --> 00:20:03.799 no, we're using outside custodians. We're not custoding our assets. We're 238 00:20:03.799 --> 00:20:08.319 holding assets in our treasury to be able to operate on the blockchains. We're 239 00:20:08.359 --> 00:20:14.799 operating across multiple public blockchains at this point, and so to be able to 240 00:20:14.839 --> 00:20:17.960 operate, you need to have the coins to pay for your transactions to be 241 00:20:18.039 --> 00:20:22.200 recorded. So we need those coins as part of our treasury and part of 242 00:20:22.200 --> 00:20:26.799 our treasury management. So that's why we hold our coins. But our coins 243 00:20:26.880 --> 00:20:30.839 themselves are held in custodial wallets, and we think all assets should be held 244 00:20:30.880 --> 00:20:36.880 in safe keeping like that. Oh absolutely, that's incredible. Now, what 245 00:20:36.880 --> 00:20:41.279 were your thoughts on the etf launches and how the inflows have been going so 246 00:20:41.359 --> 00:20:45.799 far? Seems historic. I couldn't believe it, you know, and the 247 00:20:45.839 --> 00:20:51.160 billions already coming in just after what is it two weeks now? And in 248 00:20:51.200 --> 00:20:57.000 addition, I saw the bitcoin etf au M surpassed Silver's etf au M, 249 00:20:57.200 --> 00:21:02.039 and I'm like, wow, that's it's a big hurdle that cross. There. 250 00:21:02.480 --> 00:21:04.000 Hi, everyone, part of the interruption. I'm Tony Edward, the 251 00:21:04.039 --> 00:21:07.640 founder and host of the Thinking Crypto podcast. I have a you favor to 252 00:21:07.680 --> 00:21:11.599 ask you. If you haven't subscribed as yet on YouTuber or the podcast platforms, 253 00:21:11.839 --> 00:21:15.240 hit that subscribe button, hit the thumbs up button, hit the notification 254 00:21:15.359 --> 00:21:19.440 bell on the YouTube platform and on Spotify or Apple or wherever you get your 255 00:21:19.480 --> 00:21:23.680 podcasts, please leave a five style rating and review. It supports the podcast. 256 00:21:23.720 --> 00:21:27.160 It allows me to bring great quality content to you. Thank you for 257 00:21:27.200 --> 00:21:30.240 your support, and I'll let you get back to the content. It's been 258 00:21:30.279 --> 00:21:37.599 an incredibly successful launch across the board, and it's been super exciting because there's 259 00:21:37.640 --> 00:21:41.960 never really been a situation like this where so many people launch a brand new 260 00:21:41.000 --> 00:21:45.759 product at exactly the same time. Again, it always invites comparisons to a 261 00:21:45.799 --> 00:21:49.880 horse race, But what I always try people to get them to understand is 262 00:21:49.920 --> 00:21:55.680 that this is going to come in waves. Right, the first wave of 263 00:21:55.720 --> 00:22:00.160 investors who are coming into this are self directed investors. Next, what will 264 00:22:00.200 --> 00:22:06.359 happen is the track record of these bitcoin ETFs will get built up. People 265 00:22:06.400 --> 00:22:10.519 will see how they track to the underlying price and Bitcoin, how the orderly 266 00:22:11.240 --> 00:22:15.960 creation and redemption of shares works, how the secondary tradings of shares works, 267 00:22:15.680 --> 00:22:19.799 and they will gain confidence in the instrument. And then over the coming six 268 00:22:19.880 --> 00:22:25.400 months to a year, you will start to see these products be listed onto 269 00:22:25.519 --> 00:22:30.599 the wealth platforms. You'll see them start to be included into model portfolios, 270 00:22:30.000 --> 00:22:34.000 and that's when you'll start to see the next wave of money coming in. 271 00:22:34.200 --> 00:22:41.559 So I think that You've got a lot of excited self directed institutions and individuals 272 00:22:41.559 --> 00:22:45.119 who have been quick to jump on the Bitcoin ETF, and I think there 273 00:22:45.119 --> 00:22:48.400 will be a whole other wave of money that starts to come in as people 274 00:22:48.440 --> 00:22:53.200 gain confidence in this new instrument and sy that is working as people have hoped 275 00:22:53.200 --> 00:22:56.759 and expected it to work, and as it has been working, Oh for 276 00:22:56.799 --> 00:23:03.559 sure. And tell us about Franklin Temple's's marketing plan or a brand awareness plan 277 00:23:03.759 --> 00:23:07.480 around the ETS in educating rias and wealth managers. Yeah, so we have 278 00:23:07.680 --> 00:23:15.079 three levels of education that we're working on in rolling out right now. We've 279 00:23:15.119 --> 00:23:18.319 been in the space for so long. We already had a very robust primer 280 00:23:18.400 --> 00:23:25.079 that's available publicly, a glossary that's available publicly to help people get oriented to 281 00:23:25.160 --> 00:23:32.119 the space. But in particular now we're preparing education for self directed investors on 282 00:23:32.279 --> 00:23:38.440 neo broker and wealth platforms that are looking to have short, digestible bits of 283 00:23:38.680 --> 00:23:44.039 information to start to learn the space. So this should be very accessible for 284 00:23:44.119 --> 00:23:49.920 people who are used to social media platforms and used to very quick learning videos. 285 00:23:49.960 --> 00:23:53.440 So we have a whole set that's coming out there. We have a 286 00:23:53.480 --> 00:23:59.960 set of much more traditional education content where you go through a whole court, 287 00:24:00.319 --> 00:24:03.960 you take knowledge checks at the end, you really help people get certified in 288 00:24:04.119 --> 00:24:10.200 understanding these new asset classes. That's going to be what we're preparing for wealth 289 00:24:10.240 --> 00:24:15.480 platforms and for advisors, and then for the institutional space, we're also really 290 00:24:15.519 --> 00:24:22.559 looking to roll out this education of how these new opportunities are changing the ecosystem, 291 00:24:22.359 --> 00:24:27.599 where it fits into how it might transform their portfolios, because institutions look 292 00:24:27.680 --> 00:24:33.640 to hold portfolios for twenty thirty forty years, right, and they think in 293 00:24:33.759 --> 00:24:37.880 those timeframes, and that's a very different way of educating people about what's going 294 00:24:37.920 --> 00:24:42.400 to happen with their assets. So we're really coming out with those three tiers 295 00:24:42.440 --> 00:24:48.400 of education to really help people get what they need to be participating safely and 296 00:24:48.519 --> 00:24:52.680 knowledgeably in the space. There was a question that came from the community because 297 00:24:52.720 --> 00:24:57.000 I had published that I was interviewing you, and it was besides the different 298 00:24:57.039 --> 00:25:02.680 fees that the ETFs charge, what should investors look at when deciding which bigcoin 299 00:25:02.720 --> 00:25:04.519 ETF to invest in. I think you may have touched on some of it, 300 00:25:04.559 --> 00:25:07.079 you know, your pedigree and crypto and so forth, but if you 301 00:25:07.119 --> 00:25:11.480 can summarize that, yeah, I think, Look, I think there's a 302 00:25:11.519 --> 00:25:15.359 few things that you need to think about with the bitcoin ETF is you need 303 00:25:15.400 --> 00:25:22.000 someone who understands the ecosystem and understands the mechanics of how bitcoins work. Because 304 00:25:22.960 --> 00:25:27.839 the issuers of these ETFs are going to become some of the largest owners of 305 00:25:27.880 --> 00:25:33.039 bitcoin in the world, right, so you want to have confidence that they 306 00:25:33.279 --> 00:25:38.519 understand how the ecosystem operates and that they are engaged in the ecosystem. But 307 00:25:38.720 --> 00:25:45.160 by the same token, these are also ETF vehicles. This comes down to 308 00:25:45.319 --> 00:25:49.559 the strength of your relationship with your market makers, with your authorized participants, 309 00:25:49.559 --> 00:25:56.200 with your liquidity providers, with your custodians. There's a whole network of people 310 00:25:56.240 --> 00:26:00.319 that are engaged in making an ETF operate safely, and you want to make 311 00:26:00.359 --> 00:26:06.680 sure that the firm that is choosing this is a firm that also understands the 312 00:26:06.799 --> 00:26:12.119 traditional finance aspects of running the ETF successfully. So it's a kind of unique 313 00:26:12.200 --> 00:26:17.319 blend that we would tell people to look for, and I would tell them 314 00:26:17.359 --> 00:26:23.480 to also really watch the tracking error right because there's a difference always between the 315 00:26:23.519 --> 00:26:29.759 index that people are using to base these ETFs off of and the actual spot 316 00:26:29.839 --> 00:26:34.000 price of bitcoin, and that tracking error can be managed. But those who 317 00:26:34.039 --> 00:26:40.960 really understand the relationship between the ETF and the bitcoin will manage it the best 318 00:26:41.000 --> 00:26:42.599 and get you the best return. So those are the things that I would 319 00:26:42.640 --> 00:26:47.200 look at. Oh yeah, that's great, now, Sandy, hard question 320 00:26:47.319 --> 00:26:52.640 for you. There's the eighty twenty investment portfolio rule. With these ETFs entering 321 00:26:52.720 --> 00:27:00.200 the market and bitcoin growing in UH, I would say, adoption and awareness 322 00:27:00.279 --> 00:27:04.000 and now it's accessible in retirement accounts and so forth. Do you anticipate maybe 323 00:27:04.000 --> 00:27:10.880 in the next five to eight years that we see a sixty thirty ten portfolio 324 00:27:11.000 --> 00:27:15.559 split, where ten is allocation to crypto and digital assets. I think that 325 00:27:15.680 --> 00:27:19.000 you'll probably start to even see that sooner, but I think it will be 326 00:27:19.000 --> 00:27:25.799 sub elected. Right. You always think of these portfolio configurations as conservative, 327 00:27:25.960 --> 00:27:30.000 moderate, and aggressive, right, So I think in the aggressive portion of 328 00:27:30.000 --> 00:27:34.200 the portfolio, you'll probably start to see those types of configurations emerge fairly quickly. 329 00:27:34.880 --> 00:27:38.960 I think for the more moderate you might see a one to two percent 330 00:27:40.160 --> 00:27:44.519 type of allocation initially, and then for the conservative they will still kind of 331 00:27:44.640 --> 00:27:48.759 keep away from these assets because of the volatility. But as we're already seeing 332 00:27:48.759 --> 00:27:55.480 with bitcoin, Once this money starts to come in and these market mechanisms around 333 00:27:55.599 --> 00:28:03.319 keeping the relationship between the spot asset and the index et in sync, volativity 334 00:28:03.400 --> 00:28:07.160 tends to go down. So I think that as the volatility in the whole 335 00:28:07.200 --> 00:28:11.920 ecosystem goes down, it will become more and more included as a regular part 336 00:28:11.960 --> 00:28:17.599 of portfolios. And what do you think about the dynamic layer of not to 337 00:28:17.640 --> 00:28:22.400 get more of it, but just it is life. The changing demographic millennials 338 00:28:22.440 --> 00:28:26.720 and gen zers more into digital. They they're not so much into gold, 339 00:28:27.000 --> 00:28:32.000 but they're into bitcoin, crypto, NFTs and things along those lines. And 340 00:28:32.039 --> 00:28:36.680 as the generation shift takes place in the next ten to twenty years, it 341 00:28:36.759 --> 00:28:41.160 could be a ten percent or higher. Right for as a standard, it 342 00:28:41.160 --> 00:28:44.680 won't happen overnight. But what are your thoughts on that? Well, I 343 00:28:44.720 --> 00:28:48.680 think, you know, it's inherent in what we use to actually describe these 344 00:28:48.720 --> 00:28:52.680 generations. We call them digital natives, right, and digital is the way 345 00:28:52.720 --> 00:28:57.079 that they view the world. They carry their world around in their phone. 346 00:28:57.359 --> 00:29:03.400 All of us do, but for digital natives, this is what they perceive 347 00:29:03.559 --> 00:29:07.279 to be a standard way to operate and live, right. And so you 348 00:29:07.319 --> 00:29:11.960 know, I'm older, I went through the process of could I trust this 349 00:29:11.119 --> 00:29:17.119 internet to pay for things over the internet to can I trust us to use 350 00:29:17.240 --> 00:29:22.480 these payment vehicles like Venmo? To can I trust it to pay with crypto? 351 00:29:22.680 --> 00:29:26.720 Right, I've had to go through a journey, But other people who 352 00:29:26.720 --> 00:29:30.599 have grown up in younger generations, this is their world right. So holding 353 00:29:30.640 --> 00:29:37.039 these assets in their wallet, having them digitally accessible, expecting there to be 354 00:29:37.240 --> 00:29:41.359 embedded benefits for holding these assets. All of these are going to become commonplace 355 00:29:41.480 --> 00:29:47.279 expectations, we feel in the next ten years, and it will transform the 356 00:29:47.319 --> 00:29:52.240 way that portfolios are built and the way that the immediacy of using the portfolio 357 00:29:52.319 --> 00:29:56.680 as part of your day to day living starts to permeate the thinking today, 358 00:29:56.759 --> 00:30:02.160 investment portfolios tend to be something that sits off to the side of your life. 359 00:30:02.680 --> 00:30:06.200 We think, because of the utility of tokenization, it will be something 360 00:30:06.319 --> 00:30:11.799 that you can actually use every day in your life and still achieve those longer 361 00:30:11.920 --> 00:30:15.799 term goals. M As you're saying that, I'm thinking about tomic settlements and 362 00:30:15.839 --> 00:30:21.880 like we were talking about before tokenization, fractalization, secondary markets, like you 363 00:30:21.880 --> 00:30:25.839 said, being able to lend out and these different assets. So yeah, 364 00:30:26.200 --> 00:30:32.039 it could be so fast, not and real time that Yeah, in the 365 00:30:32.119 --> 00:30:36.440 daily life you could be using it. It's just fascinating. Yeah, I 366 00:30:36.440 --> 00:30:41.279 think you're going to see more and more of this digital this crossover between digital 367 00:30:41.319 --> 00:30:47.400 and physical items and being able to move seamlessly between the digital and the physical. 368 00:30:47.440 --> 00:30:51.279 That's going to become also, I think, very commonplace, and it 369 00:30:51.400 --> 00:30:55.440 sounds fantastical today, but I remember when they told me that I would be 370 00:30:55.480 --> 00:31:00.000 able to buy tickets for a concert and choose my seat over the internet, 371 00:31:00.440 --> 00:31:03.160 and I thought that sounds fantastical. So, you know, the speed with 372 00:31:03.200 --> 00:31:07.440 which these things get integrated into our day to day lives is sometimes amazing, 373 00:31:07.759 --> 00:31:11.480 But when you look back on it, it was very clear that it was 374 00:31:11.480 --> 00:31:17.279 headed in that direction. Oh absolutely. Now we I mentioned earlier that the 375 00:31:17.319 --> 00:31:22.039 bitcoin ETF AUM surpassed silvers, we got gold as the next target. Do 376 00:31:22.079 --> 00:31:26.440 you think that happens this cycle or maybe it's the next cycle that you're around 377 00:31:26.480 --> 00:31:32.119 twenty thirty or so it surpasses Gold's AUM. I'm not sure, but I 378 00:31:32.160 --> 00:31:34.440 do think that, you know, with the having coming up and with the 379 00:31:34.480 --> 00:31:40.079 new ETF as an access vehicle, you've got this odd kind of collision of 380 00:31:40.640 --> 00:31:45.279 supply tightening at a time when demand is rising and you just don't know how 381 00:31:45.400 --> 00:31:52.079 volatile that set of circumstances might become. And so, you know, I 382 00:31:52.079 --> 00:31:56.400 think it's going to really We're going to have to watch and see. I 383 00:31:56.400 --> 00:32:00.799 think a lot of the fomo or the fear of missing out that many people 384 00:32:00.880 --> 00:32:07.759 felt during the last big having cycle rally that in part was harder to get 385 00:32:07.799 --> 00:32:13.119 over because you had to go through all the mechanics of accessing the bitcoin in 386 00:32:13.160 --> 00:32:17.440 the digitally native ecosystem. Now with the ETF, it might be much easier 387 00:32:17.519 --> 00:32:22.920 for just average investors who don't want to take that extra work to get into 388 00:32:23.319 --> 00:32:29.400 the ecosystem to access it. So you might see something extraordinary, or it 389 00:32:29.480 --> 00:32:32.759 might be much more orderly because you've got now all this management of the volatility. 390 00:32:32.799 --> 00:32:37.319 I think it could really go in either direction. Yeah, for sure. 391 00:32:37.839 --> 00:32:39.759 I'm curious to see how things play out as well, because the ETF 392 00:32:39.839 --> 00:32:46.279 is such an interesting factor, and I'm already seeing in my network of family 393 00:32:46.319 --> 00:32:52.039 and friends that the psychological barrier around crypto and bigcoin is being broken out. 394 00:32:52.079 --> 00:32:54.960 The fear or it's so hard? What is a wallet address? And how 395 00:32:54.960 --> 00:32:58.759 do I do this? I had a cousin call me, hey, I 396 00:32:58.799 --> 00:33:05.680 saw you see approved in ETF and how do I believe Yeah, bringing that 397 00:33:05.920 --> 00:33:08.680 performing as a class in eight of the last ten years. I mean, 398 00:33:08.759 --> 00:33:14.759 once people start to understand that and understand it can be access through a vehicle 399 00:33:15.799 --> 00:33:20.039 that they understand and are familiar with, right, I think that that could 400 00:33:20.079 --> 00:33:25.400 be a very powerful combination. Now with the Bigcoin's body TF approved, there's 401 00:33:25.559 --> 00:33:30.720 talks of possibly an Ethereum's body TF also coming up sometime down the line, 402 00:33:30.759 --> 00:33:35.000 maybe this year, maybe next year. But there are some complications here. 403 00:33:35.039 --> 00:33:39.799 Look, the sec UH was not we're happy to approve this. The courts 404 00:33:39.880 --> 00:33:43.640 made them do it. What are your thoughts? Could we see an Etherorem's 405 00:33:43.680 --> 00:33:47.160 BODYTF in in near future? Look, I think that you know, as 406 00:33:47.319 --> 00:33:52.640 you think about the growth of any product set, right, you know, 407 00:33:52.759 --> 00:34:00.720 we started in the ETF world with very simple S and P five hundred ETFs, 408 00:34:00.839 --> 00:34:04.559 right, because that was an easy index to get to, and then 409 00:34:04.720 --> 00:34:08.519 it's grown from there to thousands of different equity ETFs. Right. So it's 410 00:34:08.639 --> 00:34:14.280 unrealistic to think you're only going to have one aspect of an ETF in the 411 00:34:14.320 --> 00:34:20.840 crypto space. We will eventually have huge product sets of etf single asset ETFs 412 00:34:20.920 --> 00:34:25.360 like Bitcoin or Ethereum, and multi coin ETFs that represent more blended indexes, 413 00:34:25.400 --> 00:34:31.480 which is actually better from a diversification and investment perspective. So you know, 414 00:34:31.559 --> 00:34:36.119 we're at the beginning of the journey. It might be a few more hurdles 415 00:34:36.159 --> 00:34:39.599 to get the ether ETF out. You have to also think about the fact 416 00:34:39.639 --> 00:34:44.960 that there is staking in that ecosystem, and that there's rewards being paid out, 417 00:34:45.079 --> 00:34:50.039 and is it possible to pass through those awards to the underlying investors. 418 00:34:50.400 --> 00:34:54.159 These are new complications that ethereum offers that Bitcoin did not. But I think 419 00:34:54.199 --> 00:34:59.480 it's absolutely realistic to think over time that you will see Ethereum and many other 420 00:34:59.639 --> 00:35:04.000 coin and even multi coin ETFs. That's a great point you brought about steaking. 421 00:35:04.360 --> 00:35:07.840 I don't even know how that's going to work, but yeah, how 422 00:35:07.079 --> 00:35:09.679 how is that? I mean, well, I guess if you want to 423 00:35:09.880 --> 00:35:15.039 or it could be an ETF that's no staking involved, and maybe there's one 424 00:35:15.119 --> 00:35:21.400 with staking. I don't know what to tbd tv D. Yeah, Now 425 00:35:22.559 --> 00:35:27.760 I'm curious what other crypto initiatives Franklin Templeton has on its roadmap for twenty twenty 426 00:35:27.800 --> 00:35:30.920 four as much as you can share, because I'm sure many things are under 427 00:35:30.960 --> 00:35:36.480 you know, pr release and NDAs and so forth, but what can you 428 00:35:36.519 --> 00:35:39.840 share there? Well, we have already been rolling out a number of products 429 00:35:39.960 --> 00:35:46.800 in our In our digital asset unit, we have our tokenized US government money 430 00:35:46.880 --> 00:35:52.239 market fund that sits on blockchain, and that is a separate product that we 431 00:35:52.559 --> 00:35:57.639 offer and we have already been building AUM and we've been running that product now 432 00:35:57.719 --> 00:36:02.440 for over two years now on blockchain, so that's a very stable product. 433 00:36:02.480 --> 00:36:07.639 As part of our growth, we have separately managed accounts that we offer to 434 00:36:07.880 --> 00:36:15.559 advisors that have multi coin portfolios available to be traded as a discretionary basis, 435 00:36:16.119 --> 00:36:22.159 and we have a whole range of eleven model portfolios from fully discretionary to fully 436 00:36:22.239 --> 00:36:29.079 systematic. We have a venture capital fund that we are trading in blockchain and 437 00:36:29.280 --> 00:36:35.519 Series A early and Series A investments where we're looking to really spot how do 438 00:36:35.639 --> 00:36:39.239 we continue to see the ecosystem build out and find the winners in that ecosystem. 439 00:36:40.280 --> 00:36:46.599 And we have patented our own wallet technology that we're thinking about how do 440 00:36:46.719 --> 00:36:52.760 we then start to bring more fund choices from the traditional fund world into that 441 00:36:52.880 --> 00:36:59.599 wallet infrastructure for those individuals that want to be able to trade in a digitally 442 00:36:59.719 --> 00:37:04.679 man native manner in their regular real world asset portfolios. So we have a 443 00:37:04.719 --> 00:37:08.039 whole number of initiatives going on that we have been developing for quite some time. 444 00:37:08.519 --> 00:37:13.239 We're excited about their growth and we're excited to see what twenty twenty four 445 00:37:13.320 --> 00:37:17.480 brings. I'm fascinating by the wallet as much as you can tell us. 446 00:37:19.559 --> 00:37:24.840 Would that like tie into the existing of Franklin Templeton app platform? And is 447 00:37:24.920 --> 00:37:30.679 it a self custodial wallet where you own the private keys? What can you 448 00:37:30.719 --> 00:37:36.800 share there? Yeah, So we're a transfer agent and in order to actually 449 00:37:36.960 --> 00:37:43.079 bring out product on blotchain, we developed our own transfer agency stack working with 450 00:37:43.239 --> 00:37:47.320 the SEC, and we were able to demonstrate to the SEC that we could 451 00:37:47.480 --> 00:37:52.800 keep good control over all of the digital assets that we administered through this. 452 00:37:52.960 --> 00:37:58.400 So to do that, we needed a wallet solution that could be tied into 453 00:37:58.599 --> 00:38:05.639 kycaml into this transfer agency process. And so that's why we develop this wallet 454 00:38:05.840 --> 00:38:10.840 infrastructure, and we as the transfer agent, are able to keep the keys 455 00:38:10.960 --> 00:38:17.320 and the personally identifiable information UH safe off chain, but tie it to the 456 00:38:17.480 --> 00:38:23.119 on chain wallet so that we are we are able to not only administer the 457 00:38:23.199 --> 00:38:30.480 coins effectively, but if someone were for whatever reason to lose their coins, 458 00:38:30.559 --> 00:38:34.719 to lose their key to their personal holdings, we have all the information that 459 00:38:34.800 --> 00:38:37.280 we would need to be able to recreate those coins for them. So it's 460 00:38:37.400 --> 00:38:42.639 you know, how do you operate like a true transfer agent in the digital 461 00:38:42.719 --> 00:38:45.039 space. And that's what we have built and that was really the start of 462 00:38:45.119 --> 00:38:50.960 our digital asset journey. Wow, I really want to learn more about that. 463 00:38:51.360 --> 00:38:54.199 I'll have to have you on maybe back again to have a conversation specifically 464 00:38:54.199 --> 00:39:04.119 about that, because I'm so waiting it into patient for a proper solution. 465 00:39:04.639 --> 00:39:07.280 Not that there aren't you know, great options right now, but for the 466 00:39:07.440 --> 00:39:10.159 masses that makes it easy. For the average Joe and Jane walking down the 467 00:39:10.199 --> 00:39:13.599 shoot, there is not you know, the lives are busy, they're not 468 00:39:13.679 --> 00:39:16.679 focusing on crypto. But if they want to participate, it's it's easy, 469 00:39:17.039 --> 00:39:21.960 it's not it's intimidating, it's not scary. And then waiting for that, 470 00:39:22.280 --> 00:39:25.199 Yeah, well, I think the biggest thing that's standing in the way of 471 00:39:25.239 --> 00:39:30.719 that is really we need clearer regulation here in the US, and that regulations 472 00:39:30.800 --> 00:39:35.199 would open up a lot I don't think that the limitation at this point is 473 00:39:35.280 --> 00:39:40.079 the technology. I think that if the if the regulations were to become you 474 00:39:40.159 --> 00:39:45.360 know, clarified, and we knew exactly how we could co mingle these crypto 475 00:39:45.480 --> 00:39:52.039 assets with traditional assets in the same wallet, that wallet infrastructure could be made 476 00:39:52.159 --> 00:39:55.840 very available, very quickly and very easily to individuals, and you could even 477 00:39:55.960 --> 00:40:00.920 tie it to you know, the platforms that you used and most frequently in 478 00:40:00.000 --> 00:40:05.840 your life. But I think we still need the regulators to come together and 479 00:40:05.960 --> 00:40:10.800 make decisions and give us the framework so that everyone is operating with legal clarity. 480 00:40:10.920 --> 00:40:14.639 And I think that's what's going to take to get us to that point. 481 00:40:14.760 --> 00:40:19.239 But I don't think it's far off. Since we're talking about cryptoregulations, 482 00:40:19.679 --> 00:40:23.119 we get a couple of bills in the House to insenate we are moving in 483 00:40:23.199 --> 00:40:28.239 the right direction. For sure, one can argue the government moves very slow. 484 00:40:28.320 --> 00:40:32.440 But what else is now? Do you think despite the presidential election year, 485 00:40:32.519 --> 00:40:37.000 that maybe we see something this year the two bills move out the House 486 00:40:37.199 --> 00:40:40.880 or this is maybe a twenty twenty five thing. I think that with an 487 00:40:40.920 --> 00:40:45.840 electioneer upon us, you never will see anything too transformational. I think people 488 00:40:45.920 --> 00:40:51.119 get very nervous ahead of elections. My hope is that with the election out 489 00:40:51.159 --> 00:40:53.960 of the way, this could become a very top of my twenty twenty five 490 00:40:54.039 --> 00:41:00.400 agenda item. Yeah, and I know there's some level of urgency because, 491 00:41:00.719 --> 00:41:04.679 for example, the SEC has been taking some losses in court for example Ripple 492 00:41:04.840 --> 00:41:08.280 Gray Scale, they're battling coinbase right now. So hopefully Congress can act soon 493 00:41:08.400 --> 00:41:13.639 and put all these things to rest. I know we're up on time, 494 00:41:13.719 --> 00:41:19.480 so uh, let's do the wrap up questions. If first, if you 495 00:41:19.519 --> 00:41:23.480 could create your own metaverse, what would the theme be? Oh? I 496 00:41:23.519 --> 00:41:30.800 think that the theme would have to be uh gosh, that's a hard one. 497 00:41:30.840 --> 00:41:34.920 In my own metaverse, I think the theme would have to be great 498 00:41:35.000 --> 00:41:37.840 concerts. I love going to concerts, so I would love to be able 499 00:41:37.920 --> 00:41:42.800 to see all my favorite music and all my favorite plays and all my favorite 500 00:41:42.840 --> 00:41:45.239 aret live and make it feel like I'm really there in the room with everyone. 501 00:41:45.760 --> 00:41:49.159 Yeah, that would be great. I think that's in the works. 502 00:41:49.280 --> 00:41:52.000 We're seeing some of it pop up here and there for different places, but 503 00:41:52.519 --> 00:41:58.519 it needs more iterations to make it more realistic and immersive. Rapid fire questions. 504 00:41:58.599 --> 00:42:04.880 Favorite food, Oh, I love Buffalo Chicken Wings. Favorite musician or 505 00:42:04.960 --> 00:42:12.760 band Pearl Jam. Oh, yeah, favorite movie probably the original Blade Runner. 506 00:42:13.519 --> 00:42:16.760 Oh, Sandy, you and I share some similar in finnies, like 507 00:42:16.800 --> 00:42:22.760 I love Blade Runner, I love pro Jam. Favorite book that's a really 508 00:42:22.880 --> 00:42:29.079 tough one. I think one of the books that transformed my thinking the most 509 00:42:29.320 --> 00:42:35.039 was snow Crashed by William Stevenson, and that was really my first introduction to 510 00:42:35.159 --> 00:42:38.199 the metaverse and it just blew my mind this idea that you could have this 511 00:42:38.320 --> 00:42:43.119 whole virtual life, and it was very transformative for me. So I'd have 512 00:42:43.199 --> 00:42:45.400 to say that's one of my absolute favorites. I'll have to check that one 513 00:42:45.440 --> 00:42:49.199 out. And finally, when you're not working at Franklin Temple and what are 514 00:42:49.199 --> 00:42:53.119 you doing for fun? Oh? I played very competitive scrabble with my friends 515 00:42:55.119 --> 00:43:02.039 nice and go to a lot of concerts and I like to Sandy, absolute 516 00:43:02.079 --> 00:43:05.880 pleasure chatting with you. I got to have you back on because you have 517 00:43:06.079 --> 00:43:09.920 a great understanding of this technology and a great outlook and perspective. Thank you 518 00:43:10.039 --> 00:43:14.159 for joining me. Thank you. It was such a fun conversation. I 519 00:43:14.239 --> 00:43:15.000 really enjoyed it.