WEBVTT

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You. Chilly Effect is sponsored by
Wallstreet, Window dot Com and listeners liking

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you now and now and a media
Jack twenty second day of May twenty twenty

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four, allegedly according to that thing
we call a calendar, and thankfully the

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Internet gods are allowing this to happen
on a Wednesday. Here we are,

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and this is the o'celly effect,
of course, the show that you're probably

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catching further on down the stream by
your final slab of choice, your applicable

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application, all that stuff. It
is what it is. But we are

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live on a Wednesday, and I'm
happy to be now. I did go

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to the stream a little late,
but if you're hearing the podcast, you

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don't care anyway. Larry Hancock is
back with me now. Last week I

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started off a show with Larry,
and the Internet conspired against us. It

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wasn't my fault, it wasn't Larry's
fault. Just the Internet didn't want to

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collaborate. And I don't know why. Maybe maybe the Internet said, Larry,

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wait until you present to Daly Plaza
before you go on Chuck's show and

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reveal anything else about just one aspect
to what is going to be an upcoming

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book regarding Lee Harvey Oswald one aspect
Mexico City. This is huge, and

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we're already into our second part of
this, and I think we got at

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least three all together that this is
going to be. It's gonna be three

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parts all together. You're going to
need to listen to to get just a

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hint of all of the complex circumstances
that come together. Now, why Lee

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RB Oswald? Clearly you know that
name. I mean the alleged assassin,

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right, all right, we know
that some weeks before the assassination, he's

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allegedly in Mexico City. Now,
I say allegedly because for many years I

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honestly did not believe Larry that he
had even gone, because they got photographs

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that don't look like him, they
got conversations that don't sound like him,

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they got evidence that doesn't look like
he even went there. Okay, and

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for years I said to myself,
there is no way this guy even went.

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Now, over time, I gotta
tell you, I don't hold that

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as a certainty any longer. The
more you learn, the more you know.

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And it's weird because what happened in
Mexico City. We know the big

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legends, the big bullet points that
they talk about in the documentaries. Right,

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he comes into the one place,
he throws a gun on the desk,

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okay, and says he's in trouble. He needs to get out of

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the country. All these things.
Now, could this have actually occurred?

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Is Oswald the kind of guy who
might be prone to, I don't know,

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performances to get things done? Well, you know, ask the people

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in Russia when he cut his wrists
sort of, you know, to stay

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in Russia and then end up in
Minsk and all of that. But no,

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that's not tonight's discussion. In fact, we need to go into context

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here and we need to think about
what was happening. The disillusioned marine who

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then goes and defects to Russia,
who comes back because he wasn't happy with

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that, And then he's here.
The press doesn't show up and gather around

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him to ask him questions, even
though he told his brother to get ready

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for that. Of course, Larry's
stopped me anytime I say something that's clearly

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wrong. But we got to set
this up. Marina is not pleased.

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They have a stormy relationship. At
the very least, people say, you

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know, spousal abuse, and problems
and this and that, and maybe he

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didn't quite get the wife he wanted
either. I mean, it seems as

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though he's constantly disappointed by things that
he thinks are going to be something that

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they turn out not to be.
He's not getting the work he wants,

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he's not holding a steady job,
he's not able to take care of his

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family. Marina winds up moving in
with Ruth Payne. Okay, Marina has

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a story to tell too. Why. Well, you know, she's about

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ready to have another baby. She's
had one in Minsk, Russia, whatever

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you want to say, the Soviet
Union, let's cover it all, and

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she's about to have one here.
But she wants to make sure that the

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citizenship of that baby is reserved,
and the possibility of bringing that baby back

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to the Soviet Union is reserved,
and that that baby citizenship is preserved.

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She wants to leave the door open. She's writing to the consulate or embassy.

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Now those two things are slightly different. But she's writing to these organizations,

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staying in contact, wanting to make
sure that her status is one way

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or another. And it doesn't sound
like she's including her husband and her plans.

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Matter of fact Oswald makes some statements
like this. Now, maybe there's

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some plans that could involve Oswald,
maybe there's some that don't. A lot

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of things are going on, and
Oswald making this trip to Mexico City.

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Why did he do it? Well, according to the stories that I understand,

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he was trying to get into Cuba, maybe on his way back to

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the Soviet Union, or maybe he
thought he might find his worker's paradise in

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Cuba, the newly taken over land
you know, Goodel Castro only in there

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for a couple of year years,
And this of course is at an interesting

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time period. Not a lot of
people in America really, generally speaking,

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would say out loud that they wanted
to go move to Cuba or go behind

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the Iron Curtain anywhere. Wasn't the
most popular thing, but it did seem

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to be the kind of thing that
Oswald, at least from his public announcements,

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activities, etc. Might be friendly
to go do. And maybe he

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wanted to go there, or maybe
it was just a stop on his way

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to the Soviet Union. Either way, a strange trip to Mexico City,

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where he allegedly ends up at the
Soviet and the Cuban consulate slash embassies,

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which are on the same compounds each
one of these buildings, these two buildings

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are on one compound in both places. Now I think I understand this well.

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But again, we still have the
strange pictures of the mystery man,

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we still have the oddity of the
phone calls. We still have all those

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proofs. But why don't we set
the stage and explain what was going on

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in their lives and explain what was
happening in general during this time period when

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it seems like somebody trying to be
lee Harvey Oswald for sure went and made

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these trips to these embassy slash consulates, and was in Mexico City, and

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what was happening just before and what
resulted from it? And maybe we'll get

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that done in less than an hour, I hope so. And I've got

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Larry Hancock with me, of course, the author of a great many books

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and in upcoming volume re examining Oswald
as the historical character that he is.

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I don't know if that name has
been finalized that you have on the manuscript,

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so I don't want to give it
yet, but pretty soon you're going

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to see this book released. Once
all the edits are done, and you're

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going to have a new perspective because
there has been a lot more information that

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has come out in the past few
years, especially that might shine some new

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light plus perspective, and not assuming
that the research community in general had all

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this stuff right. And I don't
mean the people that try and make Lee

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Harvey Oswald into James Bond, although
those people are out there, And I

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don't mean the people that want to
make him into a complete moron who didn't

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know what he was doing. And
it's some you know, idiotic child running

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around although he died at the age
of twenty four, he wasn't exactly seasoned

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at anything yet nonetheless interesting character.
What was going on, what was the

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context? And Larry Hancock again,
Larry Hyphenhancock dot com or Larrydashancock dot com.

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You go there, you can check
out the blog. Obviously I'll give

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links to his books, including stuff
like someone would have talked, you know,

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Tipping Point all that, And as
soon as the Oswald book comes out,

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believe me, you'll see links for
that on my shows and everything,

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and we'll be talking about it on
here too. But Larry, you gave

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a presentation to Deelyplasa UK about this
too, But we're gonna slow it down

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a little and not go for the
conference speed and just try and get an

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idea what in the hell was going
on? I guess in the what would

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we call that the fall of sixty
three, but not quite to Thanksgiving time

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when the assassination takes place. You're
going to help us through that. But

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first off, how you doing tonight? I'm doing fine, Chuck, yep,

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yep, Ready, ready to go, Ready to try to focus this.

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I think that's been one of our
problems throughout on this subject. There's

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just there's so many things that happened
together and in conjunction with Mexico City.

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If you try to merge them and
make them all part of one thing,

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you end up with no gray sales
left at all in your cerebrum. It'll

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just blow them away. So part
of it is like separating things and making

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some sense out of them individually,
rather than pulling everything apart, and kind

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of like you said, you know, the beginning question that is often avoided,

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it's often approached, is this,
Gosh, it's strange that Oswell would

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be in Mexico City. I mean, why would we even think that he

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would be in Mexico City, and
that's not the starting point for most people.

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Most most discussions jump right into the
middle of it. So yeah,

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I prefer to talk about what was
going on with Oswell, what was going

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on Marina, and why it really
is not strange to find him in Mexico

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City that fall Well, proximity is
part of the issue. First off,

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he's in Texas, and now is
there a way that he could have done

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this somewhere in Texas without leaving the
United States to you know, contact these

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places and get this. I think
if he was in New York he might

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have been able to right, Oswell
has sort of run out of options at

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this point in time. As of
the September October timeframe, he as you

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mentioned before, Marina has been maintaining
her contact with the Russian Embassy in New

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York. She's updated her residency.
When she moves, she updates that Oswald

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has written them some fifteen This will
happened some fifteen times during nineteen sixty three,

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so as far as New York City, that's covered both of them.

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Marina more than Oswald has actually written
to the embassy. She's registered her request

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to return home, She's had an
exchange with them, She's filled out paperwork,

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They've asked for more details, She's
provided more details and appealed with the

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fact that the urgency that she has
a baby coming up. All that's by

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the time we hit August, September
and New Orleans, that option is off

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the table because they have responded to
both Marina and Lee that yeah, they've

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got all of her material, they've
accepted it. It has to go back

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to Mosque for processing, so it's
going to be four to five months,

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which which makes it clear at that
point in time that if they stayed that

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route, unless something special happens,
you know, the new baby will be

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born in the US and nothing can
really happen through the New York City,

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uh, the Russian the Russian embassy. So that option's on record, you

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know. So that's that's off the
table of going there would not get you

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any further. So to some extent, if Lee wants to pursue getting her

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back to Russia and his getting to
Cuba, he's got to go another direction.

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That's really the only direction left open
to him is to travel overseas somehow

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and come into Cuba from overseas so
he would still have to get, you

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know, an access visa from overseas. That will be difficult. The one

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way that he knows about as far
as how to get into Cuba because he's

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he's been reading that in the Militant
and and the other newspapers he's reading.

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It's well established that you can get
into Cuba if you're a you can show

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that you're a supporter, and you
go in through Mexico City. The US

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students that have been going and coming
to Cuba have gone from Mexico City.

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Even the FBIICAA covert operators that are
going into undercover of being in the FPCC

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are going in through Mexico City.
So that would be the obvious way to

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go in, or at least to
try to go in. His problem is

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that he just can't show up at
the Cuban consulate in Mexico City and say,

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oh, just routinely is you know, they're going to ask you why

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you want to go? You know, do you have a letter from the

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FPCC, do you have a letter
from the Communist Party as anybody supporting your

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application? What's your reason? And
the only reason that he's going to be

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able to come up is he really
needs to get to Cuba in order to

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help get his family back to Russia. He can't. He's going to have

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to go around. He's going to
have to you know, he's going to

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show up the human Embassy and claim
that he's got Russian approval already. He

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just needs a transit visa. You
know what, just just give me a

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transit visa. And then he starts
showing them all the paperwork and newspaper clippings

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to show them that he really is
a support of the revolution and they really

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should do that. Okay, So
I'm a supporter. I know that I

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one of my best ways to get
around just going straight in because I got

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to wait four, five, six, god knows how many months for this

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stuff to get processed through Moscow.
I would learn intelligently that if I go

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to Mexico City though, and can
make a case that for my family safety

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and also I'm a legitimate supporter.
Look at look, I was arrested even

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right for handing out pro Castro literature. You know, here we go,

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right, I'm also in danger.
Now. It kind of explains some of

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the story that we hear, some
of his activities, right, some of

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this you know, he throws the
gun. I'm in danger. I need

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this to protect myself, right,
he told the one consulate worker, he

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needs a story. And if you
really look for some consistency you mentioned it

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earlier. This is exactly the way
he did things when he got to Russia.

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When he trieds training in a Soviet
Union, they rejected him. They

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told him no way. He met
with there with people from their essentially their

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diplomatic processing people, who told him, no, you can't stay here.

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As a matter of fact, you
have a train trick as of this date,

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we expect you to be on that. And they sent him out the

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door. And it wasn't until he
inserted some real drama in slitting his wrist

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in a pretty much a planned fashion. But you know, he actually got

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himself admitted to a hospital and that
made it a very embarrassing. So he

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knows that he may have to be
prepared to add some drama to this story.

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So in a way, that's exactly
what we see again in Mexico City.

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So, as you say, he
ended up when the Cubans essentially ended

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up bouncing him back out of the
consulate, he shows back up with the

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Russians and here's why I think it's
really interesting and that people kind of ignore

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this. Yeah, all he really
did was to show a pistol to the

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Russians to support the fact that he
was in fear of the FBI. He

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claimed that they had been harassing him
in the US, that he was under

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real pressure and he thought, you
know, you never, he might be

207
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locked up. He doesn't know that's
the story. You know, it's not

208
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really a wild man. But he's
adding drama the process, which is kind

209
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of exactly what we will see him
do later in Dallas. He will draft

210
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a letter to the FBI, and
in that letter he will say that his

211
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family is being harassed and he feels
threatened by the FBI. They destroy it,

212
00:16:27.320 --> 00:16:30.120
I mean, the FBI doesn't want
that sort of claim hanging around.

213
00:16:30.679 --> 00:16:36.919
And then after that he writes another
letter to the Russians in New York City

214
00:16:37.159 --> 00:16:41.919
saying the same thing, Not only
the FBI, are you folks really need

215
00:16:41.960 --> 00:16:47.360
to pay attention to our applic It
is urgent because they're harassing me. And

216
00:16:47.399 --> 00:16:52.720
in November he tells the Russians that
the FBI is trying to get Marina to

217
00:16:52.879 --> 00:16:59.799
defect. So we actually have three
different situations where he has raised this lettle

218
00:16:59.840 --> 00:17:03.720
of urgency and adding drama. He
feels threatened, he needs help, he's

219
00:17:03.759 --> 00:17:07.759
being harassed and by the way,
if you don't want it's back, pretty

220
00:17:07.799 --> 00:17:11.839
soon they're going to pressure Marina into
defecting. Right. And it's interesting because

221
00:17:12.119 --> 00:17:15.640
if you read Ernst Titebitz book,
you know the Russian episode, right,

222
00:17:17.319 --> 00:17:22.119
he describes very well how Oswald met
with the diplomatic people and then they rejected

223
00:17:22.160 --> 00:17:26.119
him and all that. It's one
of the best descriptions ever, even though

224
00:17:26.640 --> 00:17:30.640
you know Ernst meets him in mints
later he writes a really good explanation about

225
00:17:30.680 --> 00:17:36.759
how that all went down, and
then it leads to the dramatic edition of

226
00:17:36.799 --> 00:17:40.559
the slit Risks. So it seems
to me like you could almost say,

227
00:17:40.599 --> 00:17:44.839
well, this is yeah, this
is about typical behavior. He's escalating the

228
00:17:44.880 --> 00:17:48.839
situation, trying to add higher stakes, higher drama to it, and why

229
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to elicit a response, and so
now these things start to make a little

230
00:17:53.680 --> 00:18:00.000
more sense, right, yeah.
Individually. One of the the things in

231
00:18:00.039 --> 00:18:04.759
a quest to understand Oswald and resolve
some of this is when we see his

232
00:18:04.960 --> 00:18:11.000
behavior, the first question is is
it consistent? Do we see any continuity,

233
00:18:11.119 --> 00:18:14.640
and if so, it makes a
stronger case for what we're seeing is

234
00:18:14.680 --> 00:18:18.079
really Oswald and not something else that's
just popped up out of the blue that's

235
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going on. So yeah, certainly
his pattern of behavior, and including remarks

236
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from Marina. I mean, Marina
is on record in her testimony is saying,

237
00:18:30.279 --> 00:18:33.119
you know, Oswald was all about
getting to Cuba as of that summer,

238
00:18:33.839 --> 00:18:37.559
and you know, she told them, you know, if you can

239
00:18:37.599 --> 00:18:41.759
get there and send for us,
I'll go with you. You know,

240
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maybe maybe you'll be better there,
maybe they'll give you a job. Maybe

241
00:18:47.079 --> 00:18:48.559
you know, you know, we're
not doing too well. If you can

242
00:18:48.559 --> 00:18:52.880
get there, okay, I'll go
with you. Otherwise, you know,

243
00:18:52.039 --> 00:18:56.440
we don't know what they said to
each other, but certainly from her letters

244
00:18:56.480 --> 00:19:02.000
to the embassy, she's even talking
to them about the fact that she wants

245
00:19:02.039 --> 00:19:06.160
to go back to Russia where she
can get a job on her own as

246
00:19:06.200 --> 00:19:10.079
a pharmacist assistant, because she has
that trend. She can't get a job

247
00:19:10.119 --> 00:19:12.480
in the US. So you you
pretty get it, well, get a

248
00:19:12.480 --> 00:19:18.599
sense from Marina that you know,
yes, she goes back and forth with

249
00:19:18.680 --> 00:19:23.680
Oswald, and you know, but
she doesn't she doesn't consider herself to be

250
00:19:23.759 --> 00:19:27.599
where she really wants to be.
Something's got to change, right, So

251
00:19:27.960 --> 00:19:32.799
either way, this is about changing
your circumstances and things could be better there,

252
00:19:32.839 --> 00:19:34.240
and he thinks they could be better
there because it didn't turn out the

253
00:19:34.279 --> 00:19:40.759
way he wanted it. Here again
we got consistency coming together and hyperbole.

254
00:19:40.880 --> 00:19:42.039
Well, gee, you can take
a look at all of his actions.

255
00:19:42.079 --> 00:19:48.720
He adds drama or greater importance.
I mean, even Ruth Payne would say

256
00:19:48.920 --> 00:19:52.079
all the time, right, oh
well, he always wanted to seem important

257
00:19:52.599 --> 00:19:57.200
when he was talking about himself,
you know, and he all that leads

258
00:19:57.240 --> 00:20:00.039
to is okay, that's kind of
an ego assessment. And you know,

259
00:20:00.079 --> 00:20:04.359
I don't know what Ruth Paine's psychological
training is, but you know, let's

260
00:20:04.400 --> 00:20:11.119
get to it. He's adding a
bit hyperbale chuck adding his marine buddies,

261
00:20:11.519 --> 00:20:14.559
right, his marine buddies say the
same thing when he was coor it's kind

262
00:20:14.599 --> 00:20:18.759
of like this. This is a
guy who talked above the officers that were

263
00:20:18.799 --> 00:20:23.279
over them. He would kind of
embarrass them by knowing more about geopolitics and

264
00:20:23.759 --> 00:20:27.720
international affairs than they did, and
he didn't hesitate to do that. Now

265
00:20:27.839 --> 00:20:32.839
if you've been in the military.
That's some sort of drama too. He

266
00:20:33.680 --> 00:20:37.559
you know, you can get yourself
you can get yourself on KP that way,

267
00:20:37.599 --> 00:20:40.720
which he did frequently. You can
use yourself in the brig that way,

268
00:20:40.920 --> 00:20:45.039
which he did a couple of times. Yeah, yeah, but there

269
00:20:45.079 --> 00:20:47.400
you go. This is the attitude
of a guy. I mean, look,

270
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if you're in the military, generally, even if you're commanding officer is

271
00:20:49.640 --> 00:20:52.880
an idiot, you don't want to
point it out to him. That's usually

272
00:20:52.920 --> 00:20:56.599
not the you know, the majority
of people are not going to go,

273
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look at how stupid my commander is. This is not what you do.

274
00:21:00.440 --> 00:21:02.920
Okay, you used not in front
of you. You may do it to

275
00:21:02.960 --> 00:21:06.640
your buddies later, but not right
with him present. Right, you know,

276
00:21:06.680 --> 00:21:07.839
you're you're off on the weekend somewhere. God, you know, the

277
00:21:07.880 --> 00:21:12.079
sergeant's and moron you know. Okay, but realistically, this is the kind

278
00:21:12.119 --> 00:21:15.480
of guy who takes that sort of
action. And yeah, even the people

279
00:21:15.519 --> 00:21:19.680
that were his friends, right,
Delgado would explain him kind of like this,

280
00:21:19.839 --> 00:21:22.920
where he was like, you know, smarter above. Delgado's a great

281
00:21:22.920 --> 00:21:26.720
example, I think, you know, and a guy who liked to speak

282
00:21:26.759 --> 00:21:29.319
to him and you know, and
they talked about Cuba quite a bit and

283
00:21:29.359 --> 00:21:33.160
stuff like that. Anyway, I'm
getting off track. Were we need to

284
00:21:33.200 --> 00:21:37.839
go back to this right where this
behavior even though a lot of people just

285
00:21:37.880 --> 00:21:41.400
go, look, somebody impersonated him
in Mexico City and they dismiss it there,

286
00:21:41.440 --> 00:21:45.000
and I always ask why, and
nobody ever has a good answer.

287
00:21:45.079 --> 00:21:48.519
You know, well they knew the
assassination was coming up. Okay, not

288
00:21:48.559 --> 00:21:51.960
a good answer, because I wouldn't
write that in stone and think to myself,

289
00:21:51.960 --> 00:21:53.640
this is what you set up.
It doesn't make the most sense.

290
00:21:53.839 --> 00:22:00.079
So here's the thing, all of
this pattern of behavior and the attempts to

291
00:22:00.119 --> 00:22:04.319
get in to Cuba and to also
offer up his family, and to put

292
00:22:04.359 --> 00:22:08.279
this idea that you know, look, I'm being harassed and I'm a target

293
00:22:08.359 --> 00:22:11.920
and there's a problem here, and
here's my gun by the way, because

294
00:22:11.920 --> 00:22:15.279
I'm worried about my safety. All
of that stuff makes a lot of sense

295
00:22:15.519 --> 00:22:21.200
given all of the other behaviors that
we do know about from previous circumstances.

296
00:22:21.279 --> 00:22:25.799
So now it starts to make a
lot more sense. Whereas before, if

297
00:22:25.839 --> 00:22:29.000
you're thinking about somebody impersonating them,
why did they go to these lengths.

298
00:22:29.680 --> 00:22:33.519
You know, it's a little weird. You know, you could have just

299
00:22:33.599 --> 00:22:36.799
drawn up the paperwork and told people
look, just to tell people this guy

300
00:22:36.839 --> 00:22:40.960
showed up here, here's a picture. But yeah, goods. So what

301
00:22:41.440 --> 00:22:45.680
he is doing? I think if
you just looked at oswad alone, Yeah,

302
00:22:45.039 --> 00:22:49.240
he goes there, he does this
stuff. It doesn't work. Okay,

303
00:22:49.279 --> 00:22:53.480
fine, he goes back to Dallas
and starts a reset with Marina.

304
00:22:53.839 --> 00:22:57.440
Okay, we talked about that.
He starts looking for a job, starts

305
00:22:57.480 --> 00:23:00.440
learning how to drive a car.
And it's kind of like, Okay,

306
00:23:00.599 --> 00:23:03.799
I took a long shot, took
a hail Mary, and work. You

307
00:23:03.839 --> 00:23:08.480
know, if you just had that
by itself, we wouldn't be in a

308
00:23:08.519 --> 00:23:14.599
constant flap about what Mexico City was
all about. It's the other stuff that

309
00:23:14.720 --> 00:23:21.000
happens in conjunction with this being there, with the CIA and things the CIA

310
00:23:21.160 --> 00:23:25.759
does and issues with the record and
the calls and photos that when you kind

311
00:23:25.799 --> 00:23:27.960
of parse that out, it's kind
of like, why are we so screwed

312
00:23:29.039 --> 00:23:33.759
up about Mexico City? Not what
Oswald did, it's what went on in

313
00:23:33.799 --> 00:23:41.519
this context of doing it within this
CIA's intelligence collection network. And you know,

314
00:23:41.720 --> 00:23:47.319
surveillance and phone taps and so on
and so forth. I would even

315
00:23:47.680 --> 00:23:52.279
you even have to remember, in
terms of context, we know what the

316
00:23:52.319 --> 00:23:59.680
CIA was already doing with the Russian
and Cuban diplomatic personnel. They were already

317
00:24:00.160 --> 00:24:04.880
It's not like anybody needed to recruit
Oswald to go in and spend like a

318
00:24:04.920 --> 00:24:11.480
total of forty five minutes in the
Cuban embassy. And you know he's a

319
00:24:11.519 --> 00:24:17.519
spy, right, Nothing about is
time the Cuban embassy makes sense. The

320
00:24:17.599 --> 00:24:23.079
CIA has already had discovered they have
been using AMMOT Cuban counterintelligence personnel out of

321
00:24:23.440 --> 00:24:29.960
Miami, out of Jmwave to penetrate
the Cuban embassy. These are these are

322
00:24:30.000 --> 00:24:33.799
people that have real covers. You
know, they're Cubans, they're exiles.

323
00:24:33.839 --> 00:24:37.759
They know, they have friends,
you know, the Cuban console is a

324
00:24:37.839 --> 00:24:41.759
you know, they have a cousin
who knows them, they have family connections.

325
00:24:41.799 --> 00:24:45.200
They can walk in and did we
have records of it? And there's

326
00:24:45.279 --> 00:24:48.240
no. They don't have to stop
to talk to Juran. They go and

327
00:24:48.279 --> 00:24:52.240
sit down with ask you and find
out what they need to know. And

328
00:24:52.279 --> 00:24:56.839
this this has been so effective and
been going on for so many months,

329
00:24:56.839 --> 00:25:04.440
but this time that there are so
several dirty tricks operations going on against Cuban

330
00:25:04.480 --> 00:25:12.039
embassy staff, the former head council
in Mexico City, Carlos Latuga, Sylvia

331
00:25:12.119 --> 00:25:18.519
Durant herself who had an affair with
him, Council OSCU, who Osweald just

332
00:25:18.599 --> 00:25:22.559
briefly meets and throws them out of
the building. You know, this is

333
00:25:22.640 --> 00:25:26.359
already going on. They don't know
Oswald is a spy. Really is sort

334
00:25:26.359 --> 00:25:33.400
of meaningless in that context because he
doesn't have any of the right credentials to

335
00:25:33.440 --> 00:25:37.920
get to get inside. Well what
about the work inside? Yeah, what

336
00:25:37.960 --> 00:25:42.039
about the working relationship in addition,
not just that the facilities, but outside

337
00:25:42.039 --> 00:25:47.599
of the facilities and people's personal lives, because they have a working relationship with

338
00:25:48.119 --> 00:25:52.640
the Mexican authorities as well. Right, So there's stuff going on there too,

339
00:25:52.720 --> 00:25:56.119
isn't there? Oh? Yeah?
That that that the what what we

340
00:25:56.279 --> 00:26:02.319
tend to forget, uh and it
it becomes a big part of the story

341
00:26:02.359 --> 00:26:07.640
in explaining why the CIA would have
done so many stupid things. Okay,

342
00:26:07.720 --> 00:26:12.680
so clearly they obfuscated, they altered
records, they kept records by I mean,

343
00:26:14.359 --> 00:26:18.279
there's no doubt something really strange went
on in Mexico City with the CIA,

344
00:26:18.839 --> 00:26:22.119
okay, and their actions because we
should. As you said at the

345
00:26:22.119 --> 00:26:26.079
start of the show, they've got
cameras. They've got multiple cameras, every

346
00:26:26.119 --> 00:26:33.359
doorways covered. Oswell goes into a
total of the Cuban consulate, embassy and

347
00:26:33.720 --> 00:26:38.759
Russian embassy seven times. They've all
got photo coverage and we have no pictures.

348
00:26:38.799 --> 00:26:42.960
That's insane, But it's not Oswald's. It's not Oswald's fault. Okay,

349
00:26:44.240 --> 00:26:51.000
they got telephone taps on the embassy
and consulate phones. If the thing

350
00:26:51.039 --> 00:26:56.680
that really appalls me is we haven't
blamed this on the CIA to this sufficient

351
00:26:56.720 --> 00:27:03.079
extent because the CIA could have resolved
this long ago. There would have been

352
00:27:03.119 --> 00:27:07.400
no mysteries. All they had to
do is set down even after the assassination,

353
00:27:08.119 --> 00:27:17.680
get all their transcripts, call in
the translators, let Durand be interviewed,

354
00:27:17.839 --> 00:27:22.359
which she volunteered to do, look
at pictures, all this right then,

355
00:27:22.839 --> 00:27:25.759
right, and there would have been
no issues. But they chose a

356
00:27:25.839 --> 00:27:30.559
not to do that. So there's
either a very suspicious reason or you know,

357
00:27:30.640 --> 00:27:36.920
something's going on with the CIA,
quite frankly more than with Oswald.

358
00:27:36.960 --> 00:27:38.880
Well cutting to the chase, cutting
to the chase. On this, let

359
00:27:38.880 --> 00:27:44.359
me ask you this, is it
more that the CIA is trying to cover

360
00:27:44.480 --> 00:27:48.640
up the totality of their operations because
a lot of people go, why would

361
00:27:48.640 --> 00:27:51.680
they be covering for Oswald? Right, they're covering for Oswell. I don't

362
00:27:51.680 --> 00:27:55.200
think they're covering for Oswald at all. With this messy record, you know,

363
00:27:55.319 --> 00:27:59.480
non existent photographs, Oh, these
cameras weren't working, all this stuff.

364
00:27:59.640 --> 00:28:02.160
I don't think that's a cover for
Oswald. I think it's a cover

365
00:28:02.279 --> 00:28:07.039
for them to not ever have to
demonstrate exactly how well covered they had all

366
00:28:07.079 --> 00:28:11.160
this stuff. How about that?
Is that absolutely right? We even know

367
00:28:11.279 --> 00:28:18.319
that we even have documents from CIA
headquarters to Mexico City station. They they

368
00:28:18.160 --> 00:28:25.240
they chew or they're chewing on Mexico
City Station for having Duran arrested by the

369
00:28:25.279 --> 00:28:30.799
Mexican police and interrogated and and and
essentially saying do not do this people,

370
00:28:30.319 --> 00:28:37.960
we everything that we have. Mexico
City was second only to Berlin, and

371
00:28:38.039 --> 00:28:45.359
maybe in front of Berlin and being
the the crown jewels of CIA espionage at

372
00:28:45.359 --> 00:28:52.119
that point in time, Mexico City. You mentioned the arrangement the CIA had

373
00:28:52.200 --> 00:28:56.000
with the Mexican president, and the
US ambassador was part of that. More

374
00:28:56.079 --> 00:29:03.920
LEAs written about that the CIA.
Think about how vulnerable the US is from

375
00:29:03.920 --> 00:29:08.440
a strategic standpoint if we really dig
into those tapes and find out where the

376
00:29:08.480 --> 00:29:15.079
tapes were recorded, and find out
the tapes were recorded not by the CIA

377
00:29:15.240 --> 00:29:21.960
with a phone tap, but at
a Mexican telephone switching system staffed by Mexican

378
00:29:22.000 --> 00:29:29.039
military personnel and operated under direct direction
of the federal police and the Mexican president.

379
00:29:29.480 --> 00:29:32.799
And by the way, that tap
is not just on the Russias and

380
00:29:32.880 --> 00:29:40.640
Cubans, It's on a whole list
of other nations and individuals, including those

381
00:29:40.680 --> 00:29:47.440
people who are political opponents of the
Mexican president. And this deal allows all

382
00:29:47.480 --> 00:29:52.319
this information that's being collected to be
shared with the Mexican president for his own

383
00:29:52.359 --> 00:30:00.880
political purposes. What if he started
pulling these threads the CIA and the government,

384
00:30:02.079 --> 00:30:07.480
I mean not just the CIA,
but the whole the US national government

385
00:30:08.000 --> 00:30:12.359
as a major exposure here. I
think, think of what happened is suddenly

386
00:30:12.400 --> 00:30:18.960
the headlines is, uh, you
know, Mexan Mexican president gets dirt on

387
00:30:19.519 --> 00:30:26.720
opponents through the CIA. Mexico's already
under pressure from the communist or trying to

388
00:30:26.799 --> 00:30:30.799
overthrow this guy. What more could
you give them? Well, and then

389
00:30:30.799 --> 00:30:34.200
if you add in our state department
cooperating with them, right, it's like,

390
00:30:34.599 --> 00:30:38.119
Oh, and also the US was
backing this, right, So what's

391
00:30:38.160 --> 00:30:42.839
going on here? Oh, I
guess Mexico's in the US's pocket. Uh.

392
00:30:42.920 --> 00:30:48.279
And you know, obviously through the
President there's leverage over him because this

393
00:30:48.319 --> 00:30:52.440
is how he's holding onto political power. And this has nothing to do even

394
00:30:52.599 --> 00:30:56.839
again with Oswald, Right, It's
just that he ends up in this web.

395
00:30:56.920 --> 00:31:00.880
And quite honestly, if you were
smart and you were somebody connected to

396
00:31:00.920 --> 00:31:06.000
the CIA proper, you might have
directed Oswald not to go to Mexico City.

397
00:31:07.000 --> 00:31:11.599
I mean, this is a spoiler. Yeah, I think that's what.

398
00:31:11.000 --> 00:31:15.160
Yeah. Because and just to elaborate
just a little bit more on how

399
00:31:15.160 --> 00:31:26.039
strategic this was. The CIA itself, remember JM Wave was there for a

400
00:31:26.200 --> 00:31:33.960
very specific operational reason in Miami to
primarily do military ops against Cuba infiltration,

401
00:31:34.160 --> 00:31:41.000
exfiltration, send in spies, whatever. But the hub, the nexus of

402
00:31:41.039 --> 00:31:48.279
their effort against Cuba in let talking
about the Caribbean Central America is all in

403
00:31:48.359 --> 00:31:56.799
Mexico City. Because Cuba reaches Central
America and South America through Mexico City.

404
00:31:57.720 --> 00:32:05.200
Their diplomatic content go through there.
They they send money, they send weapons.

405
00:32:05.599 --> 00:32:10.240
It all goes through Mexico. So
suddenly tomorrow afternoon you lost the ability

406
00:32:10.799 --> 00:32:15.519
to monitor that sort of thing and
try to interdict it with the Mexican military,

407
00:32:15.559 --> 00:32:20.559
who again, your president, the
president, you got a deal,

408
00:32:20.759 --> 00:32:23.640
right, so if you give them
the right infant, you'll let them intervene.

409
00:32:23.839 --> 00:32:30.480
You know, if that presidency changed
and an anti American president took over

410
00:32:30.519 --> 00:32:36.640
in Mexico and you lost the resources
that you have there, you just gutted

411
00:32:37.119 --> 00:32:44.480
your entire effort against the Cuban Revolution
across Latin America. You know. So

412
00:32:44.759 --> 00:32:50.240
we're not just talking. We're not
just talking. We're certainly not just talking

413
00:32:50.279 --> 00:32:54.000
about Oswald. When we talk about
why, what the choice that the CIA

414
00:32:54.200 --> 00:33:00.799
is going to have to make when
this stuff begins to be investigated, The

415
00:33:00.920 --> 00:33:07.880
choice is do we what's our priority
is do we help in the investigation of

416
00:33:07.920 --> 00:33:13.559
the assassination of an American president?
Is that our priority? Or do we

417
00:33:14.359 --> 00:33:20.079
you know, shuffle around and obscure
all this and obfuscate so we don't risk

418
00:33:20.480 --> 00:33:24.440
investigations into things that will be far
more damage in the country. Somebody else

419
00:33:24.480 --> 00:33:30.480
can solve the assassination, right,
So instead of exposing the fact that this

420
00:33:30.519 --> 00:33:35.519
gave them a lens into che Guevera, was the revolution spreading, et cetera,

421
00:33:35.559 --> 00:33:38.000
et cetera. You know how far
does this go from Castro on?

422
00:33:38.839 --> 00:33:44.319
Uh? And and there's a lot
of island nations there right Uh that that

423
00:33:44.559 --> 00:33:46.680
you know, you got Haiti right
there. You got a whole bunch of

424
00:33:46.759 --> 00:33:51.720
things happening. Again, not the
big headlines, but this was the concern,

425
00:33:51.839 --> 00:33:57.079
right, the domino effect of South
and Central America, Honduras, Dura.

426
00:33:57.119 --> 00:34:00.599
I mean, you've got the CIA
direct You've got people going into Jay's

427
00:34:00.680 --> 00:34:06.680
office before the assassination saying, look, we've got evidence of how Castro is

428
00:34:06.920 --> 00:34:10.800
amping up, and the CIA is
behind this. They're collecting this evidence,

429
00:34:12.239 --> 00:34:15.159
and of course they would do the
same thing with John. But yeah,

430
00:34:15.360 --> 00:34:20.559
Central America, Honduras, you've got, you've got if you start looking at

431
00:34:20.559 --> 00:34:24.880
the documents. As a matter of
fact, and Morley does a great job

432
00:34:24.920 --> 00:34:31.440
with his book on Mexico City.
It's Mexico and Central America were more at

433
00:34:31.599 --> 00:34:39.000
risk from communist movements than we would
have liked to have thought about at the

434
00:34:39.000 --> 00:34:45.239
moment that there were very strong movements
that Russia had even put their own cadre,

435
00:34:45.920 --> 00:34:53.440
and this is documented. They were
infiltrating Russian cadre into Mexico to set

436
00:34:53.519 --> 00:35:00.320
up the sort of armed resistance groups
that we were doing in Cuba. Uh

437
00:35:00.960 --> 00:35:06.519
and and again Jeff brings that out. One of the that's one of the

438
00:35:06.559 --> 00:35:10.719
things that we was reeled in the
phone taps. But it's not just phone

439
00:35:10.760 --> 00:35:17.199
taps. Let's go through the list. The CIA, with the with the

440
00:35:17.239 --> 00:35:24.920
help of the Mexican federal police,
they are copying every cable that goes in

441
00:35:25.000 --> 00:35:30.639
and out of Mexico, every every
telegram, every wire, every cable,

442
00:35:30.880 --> 00:35:37.280
copying all that. They are copying
the flight logs and travel logs of everybody

443
00:35:37.320 --> 00:35:45.559
coming to and from Mexico. We
know, obviously with a focus on Cuba,

444
00:35:45.679 --> 00:35:50.280
but anywhere. I mean, they're
collecting all this. They have mobile

445
00:35:50.360 --> 00:35:55.320
surveillance teams to track anybody that comes
through that looks like they might be an

446
00:35:55.360 --> 00:36:00.239
agent. They just have an immense
amount of resource in Mexico City. And

447
00:36:00.400 --> 00:36:07.920
all of this exists only under the
purview of this arrangement with the Mexican President,

448
00:36:08.239 --> 00:36:14.880
which is It's virtually unique at that
point in time because the Mexican president

449
00:36:14.960 --> 00:36:22.239
president considers himself to be under political
pressure from these groups, including the Communist

450
00:36:23.199 --> 00:36:27.679
So when we lay aside, when
we lay side by side, I should

451
00:36:27.719 --> 00:36:34.719
say, the circumstances in Mexico City, the importance of it, the keys

452
00:36:34.840 --> 00:36:39.800
that this gives them to the you
know, communist world there, and everything

453
00:36:39.840 --> 00:36:45.000
else, and what's happening with Russia
and all of these things. We put

454
00:36:45.000 --> 00:36:50.440
that side by side with the Oswald
circumstances, and I do mean, you

455
00:36:50.480 --> 00:36:54.199
know Lee and Marina, right,
we put these things side by side.

456
00:36:54.559 --> 00:36:58.119
It's kind of strange because again,
I mean, I know I made that

457
00:36:58.360 --> 00:37:01.320
kind of a you know, flipping
remark there, But truthfully, if I

458
00:37:01.440 --> 00:37:06.880
was somebody who was connected to the
CIA and I had any sort of communication

459
00:37:06.960 --> 00:37:09.760
with Oswald, I'd be telling him
do not go to Mexico City, because

460
00:37:09.800 --> 00:37:15.760
he's going to get captured all over
the place in a web of my own

461
00:37:15.800 --> 00:37:20.199
surveillance, you know, my people's
surveillance and not just mine. But like

462
00:37:20.239 --> 00:37:23.119
you said, all these all these
elements come together. But what does this

463
00:37:23.280 --> 00:37:29.960
mean ultimately? You know, what
is even worse or what is equally bad?

464
00:37:30.079 --> 00:37:32.679
Let's put it that way. Uh, And and this is something we

465
00:37:32.719 --> 00:37:39.360
could talk about. You will make
Oswald visible internally within the system. Suddenly

466
00:37:39.679 --> 00:37:45.960
Oswell will become visible to the FBI. Wait a minute, Well, we

467
00:37:45.960 --> 00:37:49.840
were we were concerned about him in
New Orleans and him in the FPCC,

468
00:37:50.119 --> 00:37:53.840
and and now what's he doing?
You know, you will focus FBI attention

469
00:37:54.000 --> 00:37:59.519
on him. You will, You'll
make him visible internally. And one of

470
00:37:59.559 --> 00:38:06.119
the things we see is and again
Morley Juman did a great job of this

471
00:38:06.239 --> 00:38:10.480
with Roman, It's sort of like
there are groups within the CIA that have

472
00:38:10.719 --> 00:38:17.119
an operational interest in Oswald. They
they are things that they are considering doing

473
00:38:17.199 --> 00:38:22.440
with him. Well, as soon
as he shows up in Mexico City and

474
00:38:22.480 --> 00:38:29.599
in any American trying to travel to
Cube but that's illegal, immediately sets off

475
00:38:29.679 --> 00:38:36.079
alarm bells. And we know what
did we know that the station chief in

476
00:38:36.119 --> 00:38:39.920
Mexico City immediately issued in order to
find out who this American trying to travel.

477
00:38:40.119 --> 00:38:45.920
Yeah, you set off alarm bells
and you start circulating information within your

478
00:38:45.920 --> 00:38:50.639
own system, and that does not
make some people happy, which is why

479
00:38:50.679 --> 00:38:57.320
they found out that when Mexico City
started asking for information on Oswald, headquarters

480
00:38:57.360 --> 00:39:00.960
started playing games with them and not
provide it to them. So, as

481
00:39:00.960 --> 00:39:06.000
you're saying, Chuck, I certainly
wouldn't want to say him that I send

482
00:39:06.079 --> 00:39:10.039
him anticipating the fact that I'm then
going to have to start covering up information

483
00:39:10.159 --> 00:39:15.280
on him within my own agency.
Right, And this is just after Hoover

484
00:39:15.440 --> 00:39:21.360
had dropped the alert on him,
right, because literally that alert was dropped

485
00:39:21.559 --> 00:39:25.519
what thirty forty days before this was
it? I mean, it's yeah,

486
00:39:25.599 --> 00:39:30.800
and it's not like this is going
to become You sent him to the one

487
00:39:30.880 --> 00:39:34.719
place. I mean, he can
go to New Orleans and who cares.

488
00:39:35.079 --> 00:39:39.320
Right, the FBAI is going to
treat him fairly nonchalantly. He shows up

489
00:39:39.320 --> 00:39:49.119
in Mexico City trying to travel to
Cuba, and everybody's going to be advised

490
00:39:49.440 --> 00:39:54.320
the immediately the day after the phone
call was made by Duran to the Russians

491
00:39:54.320 --> 00:40:00.320
saying there's an American you know,
interested in traveling to Cuba. As soon

492
00:40:00.360 --> 00:40:04.360
as the station chief hears that,
he issues the directive to find out who

493
00:40:04.360 --> 00:40:07.760
this guy is. As soon as
they find out that it's Lee Harvey Oswald,

494
00:40:08.400 --> 00:40:14.920
as soon as that name is associated
with the American. Immediately the FBI

495
00:40:15.079 --> 00:40:21.039
le Gott, who's they send their
people in under coverage, just like the

496
00:40:21.079 --> 00:40:25.880
CIA. He's a lawyer, but
bottom line he's he's FBI at the at

497
00:40:25.880 --> 00:40:35.079
the American mission there. He he
immediately as soon as he finds out locally,

498
00:40:35.440 --> 00:40:38.199
not from anybody else, but from
his peers at the CIA, he

499
00:40:38.320 --> 00:40:43.559
sends a letter directly to j.
Edgar Hoover saying, Oh, this guy

500
00:40:44.039 --> 00:40:49.960
Oswald, who we're pretty sure defected
to Russian already, h is here and

501
00:40:50.000 --> 00:40:55.079
he's visiting the Russian embassy, and
boy talk about ringing alarm bells. You

502
00:40:55.079 --> 00:41:00.119
know, would would you want to
do that? If you're a CIA and

503
00:41:00.440 --> 00:41:04.119
Oswold is your agent. I mean, you and the FBI get along,

504
00:41:04.199 --> 00:41:07.480
you have agreements, but you know, do you really want them suddenly to

505
00:41:07.559 --> 00:41:13.559
have your guy on their ray to
her? No, especially because you already

506
00:41:13.599 --> 00:41:16.679
have the ability to cross references with
the whole thing from his mother sending the

507
00:41:16.760 --> 00:41:21.599
letter, you know, and the
FBI looking into where he was going to

508
00:41:21.599 --> 00:41:24.559
school and when he disappeared or whatever. Right, you got the whole thing

509
00:41:24.599 --> 00:41:29.760
going on with his his well,
you know, not quite defection, but

510
00:41:29.960 --> 00:41:32.480
his arrival in the Soviet Union,
then his return all of this stuff.

511
00:41:34.599 --> 00:41:37.639
This is exactly what you don't want
to trigger. Okay, now we got

512
00:41:37.639 --> 00:41:39.400
to put all these things together.
What in the world is going on here

513
00:41:39.880 --> 00:41:44.199
is what the FBI should be asking
themselves, because clearly he's not their guy.

514
00:41:45.519 --> 00:41:49.440
Uh, you know, but this
is exactly I mean, look,

515
00:41:49.920 --> 00:41:52.320
if you receive a letter from Russia, you're gonna you're gonna have the FBI

516
00:41:52.480 --> 00:41:58.360
crawling into your background, right,
and he was getting letters already. The

517
00:41:58.440 --> 00:42:06.280
whole thing is just there's no reason
for anybody in a controlled way unless now

518
00:42:06.320 --> 00:42:07.960
some people might argue, well,
they were setting him up. You know,

519
00:42:08.400 --> 00:42:12.440
this is the setup. Larry,
what are your thoughts on that though?

520
00:42:12.559 --> 00:42:14.880
I mean, this is not the
way to set him up my mind.

521
00:42:14.880 --> 00:42:19.039
But maybe and that's that's the other
argument. I think the argument.

522
00:42:19.599 --> 00:42:24.960
It's an interesting argument as far as
so, let's say that somebody, you

523
00:42:25.000 --> 00:42:30.119
know, some people would have it
the CIA as an agency, you know,

524
00:42:30.199 --> 00:42:34.519
there's an operation, the conspiracy operation
is already in play, you know,

525
00:42:34.960 --> 00:42:37.679
or maybe we've got a set of
rogues that are already have it in

526
00:42:37.719 --> 00:42:45.960
play. But so the thought has
been that we're going to to impersonate Oswald.

527
00:42:46.480 --> 00:42:51.000
We're not sending him. Okay,
we have to impersonate him, so

528
00:42:51.519 --> 00:42:55.679
he's not even really there necessarily,
but we're going to impersonate him in Mexico

529
00:42:55.760 --> 00:43:04.320
City and introduce two things that he's
being impersonated, Okay, and we're going

530
00:43:04.360 --> 00:43:08.480
to introduce the name Costakov. We're
gonna we're going to introduce, by way

531
00:43:08.480 --> 00:43:15.000
of this imprompersonation that he has been
in contact with the Russian agent. Okay,

532
00:43:15.239 --> 00:43:19.480
a KGB agent. Okay, we
know that. So, by the

533
00:43:19.519 --> 00:43:22.679
way, just your average man off
the street couldn't do this. It has

534
00:43:22.760 --> 00:43:29.039
to be somebody in an intelligence agency
who knows the implications of Costakov and costa

535
00:43:29.079 --> 00:43:31.599
GOV talking to Russia. To Oswal, Yeah, the average citizen in nineteen

536
00:43:31.639 --> 00:43:35.880
sixty three would have no idea who
the hell Costakov is or what you know?

537
00:43:36.000 --> 00:43:39.239
Section would please nobody knows Section five. But none of this, okay,

538
00:43:39.440 --> 00:43:44.599
Oswo wouldn't know who Costakov was.
Oswel would know I went to the

539
00:43:44.800 --> 00:43:49.199
You know, he doesn't get to
go to the Russian embassy and ask for

540
00:43:49.280 --> 00:43:52.840
somebody. He gets to go to
the Russian embassy and say, could somebody

541
00:43:52.920 --> 00:44:00.639
talk with me? He doesn't go
and ask for cost to call. So

542
00:44:00.880 --> 00:44:05.039
he would know he had not even
he would have known, But yeah,

543
00:44:05.199 --> 00:44:10.679
that's the point. But then then
the concept is that that somehow, after

544
00:44:10.719 --> 00:44:17.119
the assassination, this will become a
real concern. You know, Oswald talking

545
00:44:17.119 --> 00:44:22.960
to the Russian, to the KGB
just weeks before the assassination. Maybe there's

546
00:44:22.960 --> 00:44:28.719
a Russian conspiracy. So I think
that's a you know, in terms of

547
00:44:28.800 --> 00:44:31.400
internal consistence, it's the NBA,
right, Yeah, that's you could certainly

548
00:44:31.480 --> 00:44:36.239
make that argument. Then it's a
matter of does it match with everything else?

549
00:44:36.320 --> 00:44:38.360
Right? The only logical counter I
have for that, to be honest

550
00:44:38.400 --> 00:44:42.400
with you, is, look,
it's just to make him out to be

551
00:44:42.880 --> 00:44:46.320
the communist sympathizer that he is.
He's still the loan nut, right,

552
00:44:47.239 --> 00:44:52.400
but he's a communist sympathizer. That's
why he loves Castro. He's trying to

553
00:44:52.400 --> 00:44:55.800
get back into Russia again. You
know, come on, he's a community,

554
00:44:55.880 --> 00:45:00.079
he's a comedy. That's all right, He's already in play from New

555
00:45:00.199 --> 00:45:05.599
Orleans. We've got those headlines already. Absolutely that you don't need headlines to

556
00:45:05.639 --> 00:45:09.119
say. I've got a copy of
a newspaper from San Antonio on November twenty

557
00:45:09.199 --> 00:45:15.559
third, says Castro supporter kills President. You didn't need to know about Costakov

558
00:45:15.639 --> 00:45:19.440
to produce that, and it all
comes it all, it's all there as

559
00:45:19.480 --> 00:45:25.519
a matter of fact. If if
let's take one step further and let's say

560
00:45:25.519 --> 00:45:34.400
that this is a real serious plot
by intelligence officers with resources inside the CIA.

561
00:45:35.159 --> 00:45:40.599
These guys know how to carry off
read Harvey's notes in terms of how

562
00:45:40.679 --> 00:45:45.559
to carry off a deniable assassination that
you're going to blame on the Russians,

563
00:45:45.840 --> 00:45:49.760
okay, or the Communists. I
mean, they know how to do it.

564
00:45:49.840 --> 00:45:55.400
You can create you can fake photographs
of OSWO meeting with a real Castro

565
00:45:55.480 --> 00:46:00.199
agent. They've done that before,
a standard practice. Fake a photo,

566
00:46:01.679 --> 00:46:07.000
you know who Castro agents are,
Fake a real covert communication. I mean

567
00:46:07.280 --> 00:46:13.880
the CIA JM Wave had a whole
list of Castro intelligence agents. So you

568
00:46:13.920 --> 00:46:19.000
can fake a photo, fake a
call, fake you know, something real.

569
00:46:19.119 --> 00:46:22.519
You can set up a whole you
know, yes, oswell is,

570
00:46:23.119 --> 00:46:28.280
you know, set up a real
payment. You could set up something that

571
00:46:28.440 --> 00:46:34.719
was really solid that you dump on
the table at the time of the assassination.

572
00:46:35.760 --> 00:46:38.000
And there's no doubt about it.
It's not just a name. It's

573
00:46:38.119 --> 00:46:45.360
just not a fifteen minute meeting in
Mexico City. It's a real hardcore indictment

574
00:46:45.960 --> 00:46:51.480
of foreign sponsorship of the assassination.
But that's not there. All we really

575
00:46:51.559 --> 00:46:55.239
have is for someone, you know, is the issue of impersonation and a

576
00:46:57.760 --> 00:47:02.239
brief meeting in the open and by
the way, not covert. Oswell goes

577
00:47:02.280 --> 00:47:07.880
to the Russian embassy and walks in
and meets you know, and it's on

578
00:47:08.000 --> 00:47:13.480
record, right would you do it
that way if you were a Russian spy

579
00:47:13.559 --> 00:47:21.159
master. Actually, Kostakov is known
for a meeting with like Tumbleweed and with

580
00:47:21.280 --> 00:47:25.719
Russian agents in the US and has
been under surveillance, but he doesn't meet

581
00:47:25.760 --> 00:47:31.599
with them at the Russian embassy.
He meets with them out in Mexico.

582
00:47:31.679 --> 00:47:37.840
You know, this is this is
spike craft. So now that if that

583
00:47:37.880 --> 00:47:43.800
would be my counter argument to that, if you're doing it with intelligence professionals,

584
00:47:44.039 --> 00:47:45.840
you could make it. This isn't
a very good solid case. And

585
00:47:46.280 --> 00:47:52.960
the strange thing is the same thing
the same people that have the same theory

586
00:47:53.000 --> 00:48:01.159
of a poison pill that has intelligence
agents behind the Coostakov Oswell impersonation record what

587
00:48:01.360 --> 00:48:08.199
happens within like three or four days
after the assassination. These are Mexico City

588
00:48:08.719 --> 00:48:15.440
comes up with the guil Roberto Alverado
story, which does indeed have Oswo meeting

589
00:48:15.559 --> 00:48:21.199
with real people in the Cuban consulate. They have their names, they have

590
00:48:21.280 --> 00:48:25.840
their descriptions, and Oslo has seen
taken cash. Now is that supposed to

591
00:48:25.880 --> 00:48:31.800
be a backup story. It's a
better story than Costakov and it falls totally

592
00:48:31.800 --> 00:48:40.760
apart within like three days in the
FBI investigation. So the poison thing.

593
00:48:42.159 --> 00:48:45.480
I wouldn't claim that the poison pill
concept is not real. You just have

594
00:48:45.559 --> 00:48:50.239
to look at all the other things
that are going on and find more to

595
00:48:50.320 --> 00:48:57.079
support it. And one of the
things that strikes me is that when director

596
00:48:57.119 --> 00:49:02.599
Hoover knows all about oz Will being
in Mexico City and on the day of

597
00:49:02.639 --> 00:49:06.760
the assassination, go oh, yeah, we know he was there. We

598
00:49:06.800 --> 00:49:10.280
know he talked to the Russians.
We know he either went to Cuba or

599
00:49:10.320 --> 00:49:15.599
he was talking about going to Cuba. We're not sure why he knows all

600
00:49:15.679 --> 00:49:21.559
that, and he doesn't really make
a big deal of it. In a

601
00:49:21.599 --> 00:49:24.360
conversation with Johnson within a couple of
days of the assassination, he even says

602
00:49:24.400 --> 00:49:28.920
to him, look, we know
he was down there. We know he

603
00:49:28.960 --> 00:49:30.559
was doing something right. I mean, isn't there a recording of that as

604
00:49:30.559 --> 00:49:34.559
well, where he tells Johnson,
look, you know, we knew about

605
00:49:34.559 --> 00:49:37.920
this and that we know who this
kid is. He's not worried about Oswell.

606
00:49:37.960 --> 00:49:40.760
What he's worried about is at that
point in time, and for some

607
00:49:40.840 --> 00:49:45.719
reason we don't totally understand. I
say, there are a lot of mysteries

608
00:49:45.760 --> 00:49:52.000
going on for some reason the evening
of the assassination. As early as the

609
00:49:52.079 --> 00:49:59.719
evening, the concern is that Oswell
has been impersonated. That the impersonation is

610
00:49:59.800 --> 00:50:04.320
the big concern. It's not so
much cost. It's like he was impersonated.

611
00:50:04.760 --> 00:50:07.519
We don't know who, we don't
know why, but clearly there's some

612
00:50:07.639 --> 00:50:13.119
other people with knowledge of Oswald and
we may have a conspiracy. Maybe they

613
00:50:13.559 --> 00:50:19.840
really did set him up. It's
not so much that that he's a sponsored

614
00:50:19.960 --> 00:50:24.239
foreign agent shooter. It's that maybe
these other people impersonated him and set them

615
00:50:24.280 --> 00:50:28.639
up. And I think that's really
it has always been the interesting thing to

616
00:50:28.719 --> 00:50:35.119
me. And Hoover's not concerned at
that point in time about Oswald being you

617
00:50:35.159 --> 00:50:39.039
know, they pay this ass and
he's concerned about being a patsy, which

618
00:50:39.079 --> 00:50:43.960
is odd and okay, so what
can we make sense of it? You

619
00:50:43.960 --> 00:50:47.800
know, to this point and we'll
get into solving this whole thing in the

620
00:50:47.800 --> 00:50:51.920
next part. But how do we
put a cap on this part of it?

621
00:50:51.960 --> 00:50:54.280
Like, what is the most sensible
explanation of what it is we witness?

622
00:50:54.320 --> 00:51:00.440
Again, we put aside, side
by side what's going on with Marina

623
00:51:00.480 --> 00:51:04.920
and Lee and you know personally what
it is they're attempting to do what makes

624
00:51:04.960 --> 00:51:07.679
the most sense just logically. Look, they're dissatisfied with their circumstance, they're

625
00:51:07.679 --> 00:51:10.599
trying to change those things. They're
looking at different options. We got all

626
00:51:10.639 --> 00:51:16.480
that, and then you have this
nexus of intelligence games that are clearly of

627
00:51:16.559 --> 00:51:21.960
importance in Mexico City. He should
have been captured. I still don't understand

628
00:51:21.960 --> 00:51:24.280
these, you know, pictures of
the guy who looks like Alex carras you

629
00:51:24.280 --> 00:51:30.239
know from the football player right,
uh, you know, the mystery man

630
00:51:30.280 --> 00:51:34.639
photos, you know, and and
all that. I still don't understand that.

631
00:51:34.800 --> 00:51:37.079
But anyway, let's put this aside. We know that there is a

632
00:51:37.119 --> 00:51:44.000
web of intelligence assets to capture stuff
like this with good reason, with agreements

633
00:51:44.000 --> 00:51:46.079
with the government, with the CIA, with the you know, all of

634
00:51:46.079 --> 00:51:52.159
that how do we make sense of
this Mexico City trip? Is it just

635
00:51:52.320 --> 00:51:54.239
as it appears? I mean,
Oswald literally just said, look, I'm

636
00:51:54.239 --> 00:51:58.559
gonna just take a shot at this, because we're gonna wind up waiting too

637
00:51:58.639 --> 00:52:01.480
long on them to process in Moscow
and they might not let me back in

638
00:52:01.519 --> 00:52:06.239
anyway. And Cuba is a difficult
thing to get into, but I gotta

639
00:52:06.280 --> 00:52:08.360
make a I got to a stake
a claim and try and get in there,

640
00:52:08.400 --> 00:52:13.280
because that's the only workaround I have. Does that make the most sense.

641
00:52:14.519 --> 00:52:17.199
Yeah, I think what makes the
most sense is we have to separate

642
00:52:17.679 --> 00:52:23.159
Oswald and his agenda and what he
did, which actually was very minimal in

643
00:52:23.239 --> 00:52:30.280
Mexico City. Provably about what Oswald
did? You know, if you accept

644
00:52:30.360 --> 00:52:34.559
what the Cubans say, you accept
what the Russians say. It was very

645
00:52:34.599 --> 00:52:38.159
straightforward. So let's kind of take
Oswald out of that picture. Now,

646
00:52:38.480 --> 00:52:44.199
what I would say we're left with
the real mystery is why we have a

647
00:52:44.239 --> 00:52:47.320
mystery. And you almost have to
back up and say, you know,

648
00:52:49.280 --> 00:52:54.360
there were several weeks that passed between
the time that he was supposed to be

649
00:52:54.440 --> 00:53:01.119
there, okay, and where all
of this becomes a big mystery after the

650
00:53:01.159 --> 00:53:07.880
assassination. Why why wasn't it all
resolved? As you say, why why

651
00:53:07.960 --> 00:53:14.760
wouldn't it be you know, why
why are we unsure that it was Oswald?

652
00:53:14.880 --> 00:53:17.880
You know, We're not unsure because
of what Oswald did. We're unsure

653
00:53:17.920 --> 00:53:27.239
about what's going on within the CIA
itself, communications between the station and headquarters

654
00:53:27.760 --> 00:53:36.199
headquarters in the station headquarters and other
government agencies of the Mexico City station,

655
00:53:36.440 --> 00:53:39.440
like the LEGOTT and other government I
mean, we even we're in Dallas.

656
00:53:40.440 --> 00:53:46.440
An agent Hoisty is told by somebody
from the I n S that Lee Harvey

657
00:53:46.440 --> 00:53:53.039
Oswald has been in Mexico City.
It's not like nobody knows this. So

658
00:53:53.360 --> 00:53:59.000
why would any of this be confusing? Why? Why would suddenly the issue

659
00:53:59.039 --> 00:54:02.119
of an impersonation and become a big
deal when up to that point in time,

660
00:54:02.719 --> 00:54:08.079
there really is no nobody's confused.
We all you know, we all

661
00:54:08.320 --> 00:54:14.559
know he was there and you know, so why would suddenly that change?

662
00:54:14.599 --> 00:54:17.760
And I think that's our next real
question to tackle, Chuck, You know,

663
00:54:17.840 --> 00:54:22.239
why why is there a mystery?
And the mystery appears to come from

664
00:54:22.800 --> 00:54:29.480
inside And I think when we reset
to deal with it, it really all

665
00:54:29.519 --> 00:54:36.880
gets back to Jane Roman when she's
asked the question about why would you you

666
00:54:36.920 --> 00:54:42.920
know, it's clear that people are
confused and this thing about OSWA was not

667
00:54:43.119 --> 00:54:51.480
reconciled because you were circulating misinformation and
incomplete information. Well, right there off

668
00:54:51.559 --> 00:54:57.519
the bat, we know why there's
a mystery because people in different locations are

669
00:54:57.559 --> 00:55:01.920
receiving bad and incomplete information. It's
not Oscle's fault, you know, as

670
00:55:01.960 --> 00:55:08.960
you said, why isn't a current
Ostel photo in Mexico City and being shown?

671
00:55:09.800 --> 00:55:14.400
You know, why is it?
Why is the mystery man photo?

672
00:55:14.800 --> 00:55:17.800
Where are they confused? And I
think that's what we have to explore because

673
00:55:17.800 --> 00:55:21.880
that's where the real mystery is.
Well, I think the next time we

674
00:55:21.960 --> 00:55:24.639
get together to Larry, here's what
would be a useful thing to do is

675
00:55:24.679 --> 00:55:30.679
to say, look, absent the
assassination, what would have happened with this

676
00:55:30.800 --> 00:55:35.519
information? There is clearly something would
have happened with this information. As you

677
00:55:35.599 --> 00:55:37.360
stated, Look, it was illegal
at that time to even attempt to enter

678
00:55:37.400 --> 00:55:42.719
Cuba, right, You couldn't try
to make travel arrangements to go to Cuba.

679
00:55:44.000 --> 00:55:49.199
This is something the FBI is already
watching him. I think, absent

680
00:55:49.239 --> 00:55:53.239
the assassination, we might have a
different outcome here regarding all this information too,

681
00:55:54.320 --> 00:55:59.000
and there'd be no need to cover
everything up because the whole world wouldn't

682
00:55:59.000 --> 00:56:02.960
be asking questions about this guy.
Yeah, before the assassination. It's just

683
00:56:05.159 --> 00:56:07.400
we know he was there. As
Hosty will say, you know, it's

684
00:56:07.440 --> 00:56:10.880
not like I didn't try to do
something. I tried to locate him right

685
00:56:12.199 --> 00:56:15.440
right. I went to his wife, I found where his wife was living.

686
00:56:15.719 --> 00:56:19.079
We did a pretext call to where
he was working to confirm he was

687
00:56:19.079 --> 00:56:22.519
working there. It's weren't like they
were totally ignoring him, you know,

688
00:56:22.760 --> 00:56:28.760
So it is they They did respond, And of course, as you say,

689
00:56:28.800 --> 00:56:31.199
one of the problems is all that
sounds well and good. You know,

690
00:56:31.239 --> 00:56:36.360
if your boss asked you on November
tenth, what are you doing about

691
00:56:36.360 --> 00:56:39.039
this Oswald guy, you go,
well, I went and interviewed his wife.

692
00:56:39.079 --> 00:56:45.840
I found out where's stayin or she's
staining I'm working on. But that

693
00:56:45.079 --> 00:56:52.000
sounds good. Then on November twenty
second and twenty third, it doesn't sound

694
00:56:52.039 --> 00:56:55.559
so good. Exactly exactly the issue. So next time we get together,

695
00:56:55.639 --> 00:57:00.639
we'll kind of handle all the rest
of these issues and sort of sum up

696
00:57:00.760 --> 00:57:07.840
the mystery of Mexico City, Larryhncock
once again, Larrydshancock dot com. Go

697
00:57:07.880 --> 00:57:09.960
there check out his stuff. And
we are talking about this because there is

698
00:57:10.000 --> 00:57:16.119
an upcoming book regarding Lee RB.
Oswald and taking another look at some of

699
00:57:16.159 --> 00:57:22.840
the information that some of us are
extremely familiar with, some of us maybe

700
00:57:22.840 --> 00:57:27.880
to different degrees, but there's a
lot to be said here about this historical

701
00:57:28.039 --> 00:57:32.079
character and you know what, maybe
it is a good time to re examine,

702
00:57:32.159 --> 00:57:37.440
especially after new information has emerged and
everything else. So Larry, I

703
00:57:37.480 --> 00:57:39.760
thank you for doing this with me
again this week. Oh you bet.

704
00:57:40.320 --> 00:57:45.199
And by the way, check the
title is going to be The Oswald Puzzle.

705
00:57:45.480 --> 00:57:49.480
Oh, the Oswald Puzzle. There
you go, The Oswald Puzzle by

706
00:57:49.559 --> 00:57:52.360
Larry Hancock. That's what we'll be
seeing coming out probably sometime this year,

707
00:57:52.519 --> 00:57:58.920
you think, uh yeah, I
would think so excellent. Can't wait to

708
00:57:58.960 --> 00:58:01.679
see this thing, really, and
who knows, maybe we'll hear about it

709
00:58:01.679 --> 00:58:07.920
in Dallas excuse me in November because
the Answer Conference will be happening. Hopefully

710
00:58:07.920 --> 00:58:12.960
it'll be out and available by then. Oh absolutely, I look forward to

711
00:58:13.000 --> 00:58:16.440
that absolutely. Anyway, With all
that said, again, Larry Hancock was

712
00:58:16.480 --> 00:58:21.280
my guest Larry Dashancock dot com.
I highly recommend all of his work,

713
00:58:21.639 --> 00:58:23.119
and I'll give you you know,
I'll give you a couple of links to

714
00:58:23.159 --> 00:58:27.880
his books as well. Go get
them ahead of when you go get the

715
00:58:27.880 --> 00:58:30.760
Oswald book. But Tipping Point and
someone would have talked to have a little

716
00:58:30.760 --> 00:58:35.639
something to do with tonight's topic as
well, A little little something anyway,

717
00:58:35.719 --> 00:58:38.440
Larry, thanks for doing this,
and thank you guys for listening. After

718
00:58:38.480 --> 00:59:29.920
all, I am merely o'celly.
All of you are indeed the effect revelation

719
00:59:30.199 --> 00:59:37.280
through conversation In Denial Secret Wars with
air Strikes and Tanks by Larry Hancock.

720
00:59:37.079 --> 00:59:43.000
Secret wars became a staple of US
covert operations and are still happening today.

721
00:59:43.280 --> 00:59:47.199
Larry Hancock's book In Denial rips the
cover off many of them, using new

722
00:59:47.239 --> 00:59:51.719
files. It exposes things about the
Bay of Pigs that no one has ever

723
00:59:51.760 --> 00:59:55.280
written about before. It shows why
it really failed and why the United States

724
00:59:55.280 --> 01:00:00.039
did not learn from it. It
also shows why other countries today doing secret

725
01:00:00.039 --> 01:00:05.639
operations with more success. This is
the book that puts what some want to

726
01:00:05.719 --> 01:00:10.480
deny into the light. In Denial, Secret Wars with air Strikes and Tanks

727
01:00:10.880 --> 01:00:16.920
Larry Hancock. For more information,
go to Larryheiphen Handcock dot com. Pick

728
01:00:16.960 --> 01:00:22.559
up your copy of In Denial at
Amazon dot com in digital or physicalfo Chili

729
01:00:22.719 --> 01:00:28.719
dot com. The War State by
Michael Swanson explains the great national transformation that

730
01:00:28.800 --> 01:00:31.559
took place and put the Kennedy presidency
in the context of the times, and

731
01:00:31.679 --> 01:00:37.079
reveals never before published information about the
Cuban missile crisis. President Kennedy would not

732
01:00:37.159 --> 01:00:42.639
have been assassinated if he had been
president two hundred years ago. His assassination

733
01:00:42.760 --> 01:00:45.360
took place in the context of the
Cold War and the rise of the national

734
01:00:45.360 --> 01:00:50.840
security state. Before World War II, the United States was a continental republic.

735
01:00:51.159 --> 01:00:54.159
In the decade that followed, it
became an imperial superpower. Generals such

736
01:00:54.199 --> 01:00:59.079
as Curtis LeMay not only wanted to
invade Cuba, but knew that there were

737
01:00:59.159 --> 01:01:02.559
short range missile on the island armed
with nuclear warheads that they could not destroy

738
01:01:02.679 --> 01:01:07.320
because they were on mobile launchers.
Their invasion could have led to a Third

739
01:01:07.400 --> 01:01:10.800
World War, and they wanted to
go to war anyway. The War State

740
01:01:10.840 --> 01:01:15.159
by Michael Swanson reveals why, and
we'll show you what President Kennedy was up

741
01:01:15.159 --> 01:01:20.599
against. For more information the war
state dot com. Go ahead, call

742
01:01:20.679 --> 01:01:23.320
it the truth about the JAFA assassination. Right, well, what do you

743
01:01:23.320 --> 01:01:28.239
want to know? Dy Baker's wild
claim Oswald girlfriends he knew? Ruby and

744
01:01:28.280 --> 01:01:31.039
Barry answer weapons. Really? I
imagine I could claim I have four wheels.

745
01:01:31.039 --> 01:01:35.559
It doesn't make me a wagon.
But okay, on the building and

746
01:01:35.800 --> 01:01:37.559
trying to prevent the murder of John
Kennedy. Come on now, has a

747
01:01:37.599 --> 01:01:44.079
real effort on the DFA attacination bolaim. Go to Amazon dot com, enter

748
01:01:44.199 --> 01:01:47.719
Judith Baker in her own words.
You'll get the results for a digital copy

749
01:01:47.719 --> 01:01:52.400
of a book where Walt Brown utilizes
her own words and the known evidence in

750
01:01:52.440 --> 01:01:58.320
the case to get at well a
different perspective. Let's say you can get

751
01:01:58.360 --> 01:02:01.880
Judith Barry Baker in her own words
from the author himself, signed if you

752
01:02:01.920 --> 01:02:07.800
request it by contacting doctor Brown at
k I A S J F K at

753
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aol dot com. It's a fun
book and it actually dissects the many,

754
01:02:12.559 --> 01:02:20.719
many fantastic claims Judith Barry Baker in
her own words. Dot Com Radio,

755
01:02:24.280 --> 01:02:36.519
Wall Street Street Window Dot Gold Silver, the stock Market, Wall Street Window

756
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dot Perhaps you're invested deeply, Perhaps
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757
01:02:42.320 --> 01:02:46.599
thinking about getting started Wall Street,
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758
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Michael Swanson, the brilliant author of
the War State, understood these trends professionally

759
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for many years, and now he
gives you the benefit of his knowledge.

760
01:02:57.360 --> 01:03:04.679
Wall streetdo dot dot go there,
now go there, now go there now

761
01:03:05.079 --> 01:03:09.000
revelation through conversation to use expressed like
coler schools. There anyone else who happens

762
01:03:09.000 --> 01:03:12.320
to get on the air of Jelly
dot com. If you not necessarily reflect

763
01:03:12.519 --> 01:03:15.280
views of dot com or Kelly and
we are not responsible, We're getting stupidity,

764
01:03:15.320 --> 01:03:20.079
which might issue nuclear holocaust. You
know what uranium is, right?

765
01:03:20.400 --> 01:03:23.840
You think called nuclear weapons and other
things like lots of You know what uranium

766
01:03:23.880 --> 01:03:29.519
is right? Bad things things are
done with uranium, including some bad things.

767
01:03:29.840 --> 01:03:32.440
Nuclear holocaust. You know what uranium
is right, I've been a grief

768
01:03:32.639 --> 01:03:37.480
nuclear holocaust, nuclear holocaust. You
know what uranium is right, think called

769
01:03:37.519 --> 01:03:42.760
nuclear weapons and other things like lots
of You know what uranium is right?

770
01:03:43.039 --> 01:03:47.599
Bad things things are done with uranium, including some bad things. Nuclear holocaust,

771
01:03:49.039 --> 01:03:54.559
nuclear hololear holocaust, nuclear holocaust,
nuclear holocaust, nuclear hollow uncle.

772
01:03:54.599 --> 01:04:00.000
Do you remember that time when Benjamin
Fulford said that in Asian Secrets, sound

773
01:04:00.039 --> 01:04:04.400
idea is going to dispatch ninjas to
take down the illuminati. Ooh that's interesting.

774
01:04:04.639 --> 01:04:09.039
Yeah in the clutch. Yeah did
that ever work out too good?

775
01:04:09.360 --> 01:04:14.480
No? It didn't, did it? But here on o'chelly dot com Radio

776
01:04:14.559 --> 01:04:16.880
network things work out a bit better, don't they? Much better? Much?

777
01:04:16.880 --> 01:04:24.280
I mean it is clear and understanding
about the programs. The programs much

778
01:04:24.360 --> 01:04:30.440
clearer, getting live people into it. They really have a good conversation going

779
01:04:30.000 --> 01:04:34.000
much better, much better scene.
I say, forget Benjamin Fulford and his

780
01:04:34.199 --> 01:04:39.719
ninjas and listen to the o'chelly dot
com Radio Network. I agree, it's

781
01:04:39.719 --> 01:04:43.639
straight to the point, straight talk, and I like that idea. Oh,

782
01:04:43.760 --> 01:04:46.119
Chilly dot com, could you express
my caller stools? There anyone else

783
01:04:46.119 --> 01:04:48.519
who happens to get on the air
of Jelly dot com. You not necessarily

784
01:04:48.599 --> 01:04:54.719
rest dot com or and we are
not responsible for getting stupidity which might ensue.

785
01:04:54.760 --> 01:04:56.599
Thank you, Chili dot com.