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you now and now and a media Jack twenty second day of May twenty twenty
four, allegedly according to that thing we call a calendar, and thankfully the
Internet gods are allowing this to happen on a Wednesday. Here we are,
and this is the o'celly effect, of course, the show that you're probably
catching further on down the stream by your final slab of choice, your applicable
application, all that stuff. It is what it is. But we are
live on a Wednesday, and I'm happy to be now. I did go
to the stream a little late, but if you're hearing the podcast, you
don't care anyway. Larry Hancock is back with me now. Last week I
started off a show with Larry, and the Internet conspired against us. It
wasn't my fault, it wasn't Larry's fault. Just the Internet didn't want to
collaborate. And I don't know why. Maybe maybe the Internet said, Larry,
wait until you present to Daly Plaza before you go on Chuck's show and
reveal anything else about just one aspect to what is going to be an upcoming
book regarding Lee Harvey Oswald one aspect Mexico City. This is huge, and
we're already into our second part of this, and I think we got at
least three all together that this is going to be. It's gonna be three
parts all together. You're going to need to listen to to get just a
hint of all of the complex circumstances that come together. Now, why Lee
RB Oswald? Clearly you know that name. I mean the alleged assassin,
right, all right, we know that some weeks before the assassination, he's
allegedly in Mexico City. Now, I say allegedly because for many years I
honestly did not believe Larry that he had even gone, because they got photographs
that don't look like him, they got conversations that don't sound like him,
they got evidence that doesn't look like he even went there. Okay, and
for years I said to myself, there is no way this guy even went.
Now, over time, I gotta tell you, I don't hold that
as a certainty any longer. The more you learn, the more you know.
And it's weird because what happened in Mexico City. We know the big
legends, the big bullet points that they talk about in the documentaries. Right,
he comes into the one place, he throws a gun on the desk,
okay, and says he's in trouble. He needs to get out of
the country. All these things. Now, could this have actually occurred?
Is Oswald the kind of guy who might be prone to, I don't know,
performances to get things done? Well, you know, ask the people
in Russia when he cut his wrists sort of, you know, to stay
in Russia and then end up in Minsk and all of that. But no,
that's not tonight's discussion. In fact, we need to go into context
here and we need to think about what was happening. The disillusioned marine who
then goes and defects to Russia, who comes back because he wasn't happy with
that, And then he's here. The press doesn't show up and gather around
him to ask him questions, even though he told his brother to get ready
for that. Of course, Larry's stopped me anytime I say something that's clearly
wrong. But we got to set this up. Marina is not pleased.
They have a stormy relationship. At the very least, people say, you
know, spousal abuse, and problems and this and that, and maybe he
didn't quite get the wife he wanted either. I mean, it seems as
though he's constantly disappointed by things that he thinks are going to be something that
they turn out not to be. He's not getting the work he wants,
he's not holding a steady job, he's not able to take care of his
family. Marina winds up moving in with Ruth Payne. Okay, Marina has
a story to tell too. Why. Well, you know, she's about
ready to have another baby. She's had one in Minsk, Russia, whatever
you want to say, the Soviet Union, let's cover it all, and
she's about to have one here. But she wants to make sure that the
citizenship of that baby is reserved, and the possibility of bringing that baby back
to the Soviet Union is reserved, and that that baby citizenship is preserved.
She wants to leave the door open. She's writing to the consulate or embassy.
Now those two things are slightly different. But she's writing to these organizations,
staying in contact, wanting to make sure that her status is one way
or another. And it doesn't sound like she's including her husband and her plans.
Matter of fact Oswald makes some statements like this. Now, maybe there's
some plans that could involve Oswald, maybe there's some that don't. A lot
of things are going on, and Oswald making this trip to Mexico City.
Why did he do it? Well, according to the stories that I understand,
he was trying to get into Cuba, maybe on his way back to
the Soviet Union, or maybe he thought he might find his worker's paradise in
Cuba, the newly taken over land you know, Goodel Castro only in there
for a couple of year years, And this of course is at an interesting
time period. Not a lot of people in America really, generally speaking,
would say out loud that they wanted to go move to Cuba or go behind
the Iron Curtain anywhere. Wasn't the most popular thing, but it did seem
to be the kind of thing that Oswald, at least from his public announcements,
activities, etc. Might be friendly to go do. And maybe he
wanted to go there, or maybe it was just a stop on his way
to the Soviet Union. Either way, a strange trip to Mexico City,
where he allegedly ends up at the Soviet and the Cuban consulate slash embassies,
which are on the same compounds each one of these buildings, these two buildings
are on one compound in both places. Now I think I understand this well.
But again, we still have the strange pictures of the mystery man,
we still have the oddity of the phone calls. We still have all those
proofs. But why don't we set the stage and explain what was going on
in their lives and explain what was happening in general during this time period when
it seems like somebody trying to be lee Harvey Oswald for sure went and made
these trips to these embassy slash consulates, and was in Mexico City, and
what was happening just before and what resulted from it? And maybe we'll get
that done in less than an hour, I hope so. And I've got
Larry Hancock with me, of course, the author of a great many books
and in upcoming volume re examining Oswald as the historical character that he is.
I don't know if that name has been finalized that you have on the manuscript,
so I don't want to give it yet, but pretty soon you're going
to see this book released. Once all the edits are done, and you're
going to have a new perspective because there has been a lot more information that
has come out in the past few years, especially that might shine some new
light plus perspective, and not assuming that the research community in general had all
this stuff right. And I don't mean the people that try and make Lee
Harvey Oswald into James Bond, although those people are out there, And I
don't mean the people that want to make him into a complete moron who didn't
know what he was doing. And it's some you know, idiotic child running
around although he died at the age of twenty four, he wasn't exactly seasoned
at anything yet nonetheless interesting character. What was going on, what was the
context? And Larry Hancock again, Larry Hyphenhancock dot com or Larrydashancock dot com.
You go there, you can check out the blog. Obviously I'll give
links to his books, including stuff like someone would have talked, you know,
Tipping Point all that, And as soon as the Oswald book comes out,
believe me, you'll see links for that on my shows and everything,
and we'll be talking about it on here too. But Larry, you gave
a presentation to Deelyplasa UK about this too, But we're gonna slow it down
a little and not go for the conference speed and just try and get an
idea what in the hell was going on? I guess in the what would
we call that the fall of sixty three, but not quite to Thanksgiving time
when the assassination takes place. You're going to help us through that. But
first off, how you doing tonight? I'm doing fine, Chuck, yep,
yep, Ready, ready to go, Ready to try to focus this.
I think that's been one of our problems throughout on this subject. There's
just there's so many things that happened together and in conjunction with Mexico City.
If you try to merge them and make them all part of one thing,
you end up with no gray sales left at all in your cerebrum. It'll
just blow them away. So part of it is like separating things and making
some sense out of them individually, rather than pulling everything apart, and kind
of like you said, you know, the beginning question that is often avoided,
it's often approached, is this, Gosh, it's strange that Oswell would
be in Mexico City. I mean, why would we even think that he
would be in Mexico City, and that's not the starting point for most people.
Most most discussions jump right into the middle of it. So yeah,
I prefer to talk about what was going on with Oswell, what was going
on Marina, and why it really is not strange to find him in Mexico
City that fall Well, proximity is part of the issue. First off,
he's in Texas, and now is there a way that he could have done
this somewhere in Texas without leaving the United States to you know, contact these
places and get this. I think if he was in New York he might
have been able to right, Oswell has sort of run out of options at
this point in time. As of the September October timeframe, he as you
mentioned before, Marina has been maintaining her contact with the Russian Embassy in New
York. She's updated her residency. When she moves, she updates that Oswald
has written them some fifteen This will happened some fifteen times during nineteen sixty three,
so as far as New York City, that's covered both of them.
Marina more than Oswald has actually written to the embassy. She's registered her request
to return home, She's had an exchange with them, She's filled out paperwork,
They've asked for more details, She's provided more details and appealed with the
fact that the urgency that she has a baby coming up. All that's by
the time we hit August, September and New Orleans, that option is off
the table because they have responded to both Marina and Lee that yeah, they've
got all of her material, they've accepted it. It has to go back
to Mosque for processing, so it's going to be four to five months,
which which makes it clear at that point in time that if they stayed that
route, unless something special happens, you know, the new baby will be
born in the US and nothing can really happen through the New York City,
uh, the Russian the Russian embassy. So that option's on record, you
know. So that's that's off the table of going there would not get you
any further. So to some extent, if Lee wants to pursue getting her
back to Russia and his getting to Cuba, he's got to go another direction.
That's really the only direction left open to him is to travel overseas somehow
and come into Cuba from overseas so he would still have to get, you
know, an access visa from overseas. That will be difficult. The one
way that he knows about as far as how to get into Cuba because he's
he's been reading that in the Militant and and the other newspapers he's reading.
It's well established that you can get into Cuba if you're a you can show
that you're a supporter, and you go in through Mexico City. The US
students that have been going and coming to Cuba have gone from Mexico City.
Even the FBIICAA covert operators that are going into undercover of being in the FPCC
are going in through Mexico City. So that would be the obvious way to
go in, or at least to try to go in. His problem is
that he just can't show up at the Cuban consulate in Mexico City and say,
oh, just routinely is you know, they're going to ask you why
you want to go? You know, do you have a letter from the
FPCC, do you have a letter from the Communist Party as anybody supporting your
application? What's your reason? And the only reason that he's going to be
able to come up is he really needs to get to Cuba in order to
help get his family back to Russia. He can't. He's going to have
to go around. He's going to have to you know, he's going to
show up the human Embassy and claim that he's got Russian approval already. He
just needs a transit visa. You know what, just just give me a
transit visa. And then he starts showing them all the paperwork and newspaper clippings
to show them that he really is a support of the revolution and they really
should do that. Okay, So I'm a supporter. I know that I
one of my best ways to get around just going straight in because I got
to wait four, five, six, god knows how many months for this
stuff to get processed through Moscow. I would learn intelligently that if I go
to Mexico City though, and can make a case that for my family safety
and also I'm a legitimate supporter. Look at look, I was arrested even
right for handing out pro Castro literature. You know, here we go,
right, I'm also in danger. Now. It kind of explains some of
the story that we hear, some of his activities, right, some of
this you know, he throws the gun. I'm in danger. I need
this to protect myself, right, he told the one consulate worker, he
needs a story. And if you really look for some consistency you mentioned it
earlier. This is exactly the way he did things when he got to Russia.
When he trieds training in a Soviet Union, they rejected him. They
told him no way. He met with there with people from their essentially their
diplomatic processing people, who told him, no, you can't stay here.
As a matter of fact, you have a train trick as of this date,
we expect you to be on that. And they sent him out the
door. And it wasn't until he inserted some real drama in slitting his wrist
in a pretty much a planned fashion. But you know, he actually got
himself admitted to a hospital and that made it a very embarrassing. So he
knows that he may have to be prepared to add some drama to this story.
So in a way, that's exactly what we see again in Mexico City.
So, as you say, he ended up when the Cubans essentially ended
up bouncing him back out of the consulate, he shows back up with the
Russians and here's why I think it's really interesting and that people kind of ignore
this. Yeah, all he really did was to show a pistol to the
Russians to support the fact that he was in fear of the FBI. He
claimed that they had been harassing him in the US, that he was under
real pressure and he thought, you know, you never, he might be
locked up. He doesn't know that's the story. You know, it's not
really a wild man. But he's adding drama the process, which is kind
of exactly what we will see him do later in Dallas. He will draft
a letter to the FBI, and in that letter he will say that his
family is being harassed and he feels threatened by the FBI. They destroy it,
I mean, the FBI doesn't want that sort of claim hanging around.
And then after that he writes another letter to the Russians in New York City
saying the same thing, Not only the FBI, are you folks really need
to pay attention to our applic It is urgent because they're harassing me. And
in November he tells the Russians that the FBI is trying to get Marina to
defect. So we actually have three different situations where he has raised this lettle
of urgency and adding drama. He feels threatened, he needs help, he's
being harassed and by the way, if you don't want it's back, pretty
soon they're going to pressure Marina into defecting. Right. And it's interesting because
if you read Ernst Titebitz book, you know the Russian episode, right,
he describes very well how Oswald met with the diplomatic people and then they rejected
him and all that. It's one of the best descriptions ever, even though
you know Ernst meets him in mints later he writes a really good explanation about
how that all went down, and then it leads to the dramatic edition of
the slit Risks. So it seems to me like you could almost say,
well, this is yeah, this is about typical behavior. He's escalating the
situation, trying to add higher stakes, higher drama to it, and why
to elicit a response, and so now these things start to make a little
more sense, right, yeah. Individually. One of the the things in
a quest to understand Oswald and resolve some of this is when we see his
behavior, the first question is is it consistent? Do we see any continuity,
and if so, it makes a stronger case for what we're seeing is
really Oswald and not something else that's just popped up out of the blue that's
going on. So yeah, certainly his pattern of behavior, and including remarks
from Marina. I mean, Marina is on record in her testimony is saying,
you know, Oswald was all about getting to Cuba as of that summer,
and you know, she told them, you know, if you can
get there and send for us, I'll go with you. You know,
maybe maybe you'll be better there, maybe they'll give you a job. Maybe
you know, you know, we're not doing too well. If you can
get there, okay, I'll go with you. Otherwise, you know,
we don't know what they said to each other, but certainly from her letters
to the embassy, she's even talking to them about the fact that she wants
to go back to Russia where she can get a job on her own as
a pharmacist assistant, because she has that trend. She can't get a job
in the US. So you you pretty get it, well, get a
sense from Marina that you know, yes, she goes back and forth with
Oswald, and you know, but she doesn't she doesn't consider herself to be
where she really wants to be. Something's got to change, right, So
either way, this is about changing your circumstances and things could be better there,
and he thinks they could be better there because it didn't turn out the
way he wanted it. Here again we got consistency coming together and hyperbole.
Well, gee, you can take a look at all of his actions.
He adds drama or greater importance. I mean, even Ruth Payne would say
all the time, right, oh well, he always wanted to seem important
when he was talking about himself, you know, and he all that leads
to is okay, that's kind of an ego assessment. And you know,
I don't know what Ruth Paine's psychological training is, but you know, let's
get to it. He's adding a bit hyperbale chuck adding his marine buddies,
right, his marine buddies say the same thing when he was coor it's kind
of like this. This is a guy who talked above the officers that were
over them. He would kind of embarrass them by knowing more about geopolitics and
international affairs than they did, and he didn't hesitate to do that. Now
if you've been in the military. That's some sort of drama too. He
you know, you can get yourself you can get yourself on KP that way,
which he did frequently. You can use yourself in the brig that way,
which he did a couple of times. Yeah, yeah, but there
you go. This is the attitude of a guy. I mean, look,
if you're in the military, generally, even if you're commanding officer is
an idiot, you don't want to point it out to him. That's usually
not the you know, the majority of people are not going to go,
look at how stupid my commander is. This is not what you do.
Okay, you used not in front of you. You may do it to
your buddies later, but not right with him present. Right, you know,
you're you're off on the weekend somewhere. God, you know, the
sergeant's and moron you know. Okay, but realistically, this is the kind
of guy who takes that sort of action. And yeah, even the people
that were his friends, right, Delgado would explain him kind of like this,
where he was like, you know, smarter above. Delgado's a great
example, I think, you know, and a guy who liked to speak
to him and you know, and they talked about Cuba quite a bit and
stuff like that. Anyway, I'm getting off track. Were we need to
go back to this right where this behavior even though a lot of people just
go, look, somebody impersonated him in Mexico City and they dismiss it there,
and I always ask why, and nobody ever has a good answer.
You know, well they knew the assassination was coming up. Okay, not
a good answer, because I wouldn't write that in stone and think to myself,
this is what you set up. It doesn't make the most sense.
So here's the thing, all of this pattern of behavior and the attempts to
get in to Cuba and to also offer up his family, and to put
this idea that you know, look, I'm being harassed and I'm a target
and there's a problem here, and here's my gun by the way, because
I'm worried about my safety. All of that stuff makes a lot of sense
given all of the other behaviors that we do know about from previous circumstances.
So now it starts to make a lot more sense. Whereas before, if
you're thinking about somebody impersonating them, why did they go to these lengths.
You know, it's a little weird. You know, you could have just
drawn up the paperwork and told people look, just to tell people this guy
showed up here, here's a picture. But yeah, goods. So what
he is doing? I think if you just looked at oswad alone, Yeah,
he goes there, he does this stuff. It doesn't work. Okay,
fine, he goes back to Dallas and starts a reset with Marina.
Okay, we talked about that. He starts looking for a job, starts
learning how to drive a car. And it's kind of like, Okay,
I took a long shot, took a hail Mary, and work. You
know, if you just had that by itself, we wouldn't be in a
constant flap about what Mexico City was all about. It's the other stuff that
happens in conjunction with this being there, with the CIA and things the CIA
does and issues with the record and the calls and photos that when you kind
of parse that out, it's kind of like, why are we so screwed
up about Mexico City? Not what Oswald did, it's what went on in
this context of doing it within this CIA's intelligence collection network. And you know,
surveillance and phone taps and so on and so forth. I would even
you even have to remember, in terms of context, we know what the
CIA was already doing with the Russian and Cuban diplomatic personnel. They were already
It's not like anybody needed to recruit Oswald to go in and spend like a
total of forty five minutes in the Cuban embassy. And you know he's a
spy, right, Nothing about is time the Cuban embassy makes sense. The
CIA has already had discovered they have been using AMMOT Cuban counterintelligence personnel out of
Miami, out of Jmwave to penetrate the Cuban embassy. These are these are
people that have real covers. You know, they're Cubans, they're exiles.
They know, they have friends, you know, the Cuban console is a
you know, they have a cousin who knows them, they have family connections.
They can walk in and did we have records of it? And there's
no. They don't have to stop to talk to Juran. They go and
sit down with ask you and find out what they need to know. And
this this has been so effective and been going on for so many months,
but this time that there are so several dirty tricks operations going on against Cuban
embassy staff, the former head council in Mexico City, Carlos Latuga, Sylvia
Durant herself who had an affair with him, Council OSCU, who Osweald just
briefly meets and throws them out of the building. You know, this is
already going on. They don't know Oswald is a spy. Really is sort
of meaningless in that context because he doesn't have any of the right credentials to
get to get inside. Well what about the work inside? Yeah, what
about the working relationship in addition, not just that the facilities, but outside
of the facilities and people's personal lives, because they have a working relationship with
the Mexican authorities as well. Right, So there's stuff going on there too,
isn't there? Oh? Yeah? That that that the what what we
tend to forget, uh and it it becomes a big part of the story
in explaining why the CIA would have done so many stupid things. Okay,
so clearly they obfuscated, they altered records, they kept records by I mean,
there's no doubt something really strange went on in Mexico City with the CIA,
okay, and their actions because we should. As you said at the
start of the show, they've got cameras. They've got multiple cameras, every
doorways covered. Oswell goes into a total of the Cuban consulate, embassy and
Russian embassy seven times. They've all got photo coverage and we have no pictures.
That's insane, But it's not Oswald's. It's not Oswald's fault. Okay,
they got telephone taps on the embassy and consulate phones. If the thing
that really appalls me is we haven't blamed this on the CIA to this sufficient
extent because the CIA could have resolved this long ago. There would have been
no mysteries. All they had to do is set down even after the assassination,
get all their transcripts, call in the translators, let Durand be interviewed,
which she volunteered to do, look at pictures, all this right then,
right, and there would have been no issues. But they chose a
not to do that. So there's either a very suspicious reason or you know,
something's going on with the CIA, quite frankly more than with Oswald.
Well cutting to the chase, cutting to the chase. On this, let
me ask you this, is it more that the CIA is trying to cover
up the totality of their operations because a lot of people go, why would
they be covering for Oswald? Right, they're covering for Oswell. I don't
think they're covering for Oswald at all. With this messy record, you know,
non existent photographs, Oh, these cameras weren't working, all this stuff.
I don't think that's a cover for Oswald. I think it's a cover
for them to not ever have to demonstrate exactly how well covered they had all
this stuff. How about that? Is that absolutely right? We even know
that we even have documents from CIA headquarters to Mexico City station. They they
they chew or they're chewing on Mexico City Station for having Duran arrested by the
Mexican police and interrogated and and and essentially saying do not do this people,
we everything that we have. Mexico City was second only to Berlin, and
maybe in front of Berlin and being the the crown jewels of CIA espionage at
that point in time, Mexico City. You mentioned the arrangement the CIA had
with the Mexican president, and the US ambassador was part of that. More
LEAs written about that the CIA. Think about how vulnerable the US is from
a strategic standpoint if we really dig into those tapes and find out where the
tapes were recorded, and find out the tapes were recorded not by the CIA
with a phone tap, but at a Mexican telephone switching system staffed by Mexican
military personnel and operated under direct direction of the federal police and the Mexican president.
And by the way, that tap is not just on the Russias and
Cubans, It's on a whole list of other nations and individuals, including those
people who are political opponents of the Mexican president. And this deal allows all
this information that's being collected to be shared with the Mexican president for his own
political purposes. What if he started pulling these threads the CIA and the government,
I mean not just the CIA, but the whole the US national government
as a major exposure here. I think, think of what happened is suddenly
the headlines is, uh, you know, Mexan Mexican president gets dirt on
opponents through the CIA. Mexico's already under pressure from the communist or trying to
overthrow this guy. What more could you give them? Well, and then
if you add in our state department cooperating with them, right, it's like,
Oh, and also the US was backing this, right, So what's
going on here? Oh, I guess Mexico's in the US's pocket. Uh.
And you know, obviously through the President there's leverage over him because this
is how he's holding onto political power. And this has nothing to do even
again with Oswald, Right, It's just that he ends up in this web.
And quite honestly, if you were smart and you were somebody connected to
the CIA proper, you might have directed Oswald not to go to Mexico City.
I mean, this is a spoiler. Yeah, I think that's what.
Yeah. Because and just to elaborate just a little bit more on how
strategic this was. The CIA itself, remember JM Wave was there for a
very specific operational reason in Miami to primarily do military ops against Cuba infiltration,
exfiltration, send in spies, whatever. But the hub, the nexus of
their effort against Cuba in let talking about the Caribbean Central America is all in
Mexico City. Because Cuba reaches Central America and South America through Mexico City.
Their diplomatic content go through there. They they send money, they send weapons.
It all goes through Mexico. So suddenly tomorrow afternoon you lost the ability
to monitor that sort of thing and try to interdict it with the Mexican military,
who again, your president, the president, you got a deal,
right, so if you give them the right infant, you'll let them intervene.
You know, if that presidency changed and an anti American president took over
in Mexico and you lost the resources that you have there, you just gutted
your entire effort against the Cuban Revolution across Latin America. You know. So
we're not just talking. We're not just talking. We're certainly not just talking
about Oswald. When we talk about why, what the choice that the CIA
is going to have to make when this stuff begins to be investigated, The
choice is do we what's our priority is do we help in the investigation of
the assassination of an American president? Is that our priority? Or do we
you know, shuffle around and obscure all this and obfuscate so we don't risk
investigations into things that will be far more damage in the country. Somebody else
can solve the assassination, right, So instead of exposing the fact that this
gave them a lens into che Guevera, was the revolution spreading, et cetera,
et cetera. You know how far does this go from Castro on?
Uh? And and there's a lot of island nations there right Uh that that
you know, you got Haiti right there. You got a whole bunch of
things happening. Again, not the big headlines, but this was the concern,
right, the domino effect of South and Central America, Honduras, Dura.
I mean, you've got the CIA direct You've got people going into Jay's
office before the assassination saying, look, we've got evidence of how Castro is
amping up, and the CIA is behind this. They're collecting this evidence,
and of course they would do the same thing with John. But yeah,
Central America, Honduras, you've got, you've got if you start looking at
the documents. As a matter of fact, and Morley does a great job
with his book on Mexico City. It's Mexico and Central America were more at
risk from communist movements than we would have liked to have thought about at the
moment that there were very strong movements that Russia had even put their own cadre,
and this is documented. They were infiltrating Russian cadre into Mexico to set
up the sort of armed resistance groups that we were doing in Cuba. Uh
and and again Jeff brings that out. One of the that's one of the
things that we was reeled in the phone taps. But it's not just phone
taps. Let's go through the list. The CIA, with the with the
help of the Mexican federal police, they are copying every cable that goes in
and out of Mexico, every every telegram, every wire, every cable,
copying all that. They are copying the flight logs and travel logs of everybody
coming to and from Mexico. We know, obviously with a focus on Cuba,
but anywhere. I mean, they're collecting all this. They have mobile
surveillance teams to track anybody that comes through that looks like they might be an
agent. They just have an immense amount of resource in Mexico City. And
all of this exists only under the purview of this arrangement with the Mexican President,
which is It's virtually unique at that point in time because the Mexican president
president considers himself to be under political pressure from these groups, including the Communist
So when we lay aside, when we lay side by side, I should
say, the circumstances in Mexico City, the importance of it, the keys
that this gives them to the you know, communist world there, and everything
else, and what's happening with Russia and all of these things. We put
that side by side with the Oswald circumstances, and I do mean, you
know Lee and Marina, right, we put these things side by side.
It's kind of strange because again, I mean, I know I made that
kind of a you know, flipping remark there, But truthfully, if I
was somebody who was connected to the CIA and I had any sort of communication
with Oswald, I'd be telling him do not go to Mexico City, because
he's going to get captured all over the place in a web of my own
surveillance, you know, my people's surveillance and not just mine. But like
you said, all these all these elements come together. But what does this
mean ultimately? You know, what is even worse or what is equally bad?
Let's put it that way. Uh, And and this is something we
could talk about. You will make Oswald visible internally within the system. Suddenly
Oswell will become visible to the FBI. Wait a minute, Well, we
were we were concerned about him in New Orleans and him in the FPCC,
and and now what's he doing? You know, you will focus FBI attention
on him. You will, You'll make him visible internally. And one of
the things we see is and again Morley Juman did a great job of this
with Roman, It's sort of like there are groups within the CIA that have
an operational interest in Oswald. They they are things that they are considering doing
with him. Well, as soon as he shows up in Mexico City and
in any American trying to travel to Cube but that's illegal, immediately sets off
alarm bells. And we know what did we know that the station chief in
Mexico City immediately issued in order to find out who this American trying to travel.
Yeah, you set off alarm bells and you start circulating information within your
own system, and that does not make some people happy, which is why
they found out that when Mexico City started asking for information on Oswald, headquarters
started playing games with them and not provide it to them. So, as
you're saying, Chuck, I certainly wouldn't want to say him that I send
him anticipating the fact that I'm then going to have to start covering up information
on him within my own agency. Right, And this is just after Hoover
had dropped the alert on him, right, because literally that alert was dropped
what thirty forty days before this was it? I mean, it's yeah,
and it's not like this is going to become You sent him to the one
place. I mean, he can go to New Orleans and who cares.
Right, the FBAI is going to treat him fairly nonchalantly. He shows up
in Mexico City trying to travel to Cuba, and everybody's going to be advised
the immediately the day after the phone call was made by Duran to the Russians
saying there's an American you know, interested in traveling to Cuba. As soon
as the station chief hears that, he issues the directive to find out who
this guy is. As soon as they find out that it's Lee Harvey Oswald,
as soon as that name is associated with the American. Immediately the FBI
le Gott, who's they send their people in under coverage, just like the
CIA. He's a lawyer, but bottom line he's he's FBI at the at
the American mission there. He he immediately as soon as he finds out locally,
not from anybody else, but from his peers at the CIA, he
sends a letter directly to j. Edgar Hoover saying, Oh, this guy
Oswald, who we're pretty sure defected to Russian already, h is here and
he's visiting the Russian embassy, and boy talk about ringing alarm bells. You
know, would would you want to do that? If you're a CIA and
Oswold is your agent. I mean, you and the FBI get along,
you have agreements, but you know, do you really want them suddenly to
have your guy on their ray to her? No, especially because you already
have the ability to cross references with the whole thing from his mother sending the
letter, you know, and the FBI looking into where he was going to
school and when he disappeared or whatever. Right, you got the whole thing
going on with his his well, you know, not quite defection, but
his arrival in the Soviet Union, then his return all of this stuff.
This is exactly what you don't want to trigger. Okay, now we got
to put all these things together. What in the world is going on here
is what the FBI should be asking themselves, because clearly he's not their guy.
Uh, you know, but this is exactly I mean, look,
if you receive a letter from Russia, you're gonna you're gonna have the FBI
crawling into your background, right, and he was getting letters already. The
whole thing is just there's no reason for anybody in a controlled way unless now
some people might argue, well, they were setting him up. You know,
this is the setup. Larry, what are your thoughts on that though?
I mean, this is not the way to set him up my mind.
But maybe and that's that's the other argument. I think the argument.
It's an interesting argument as far as so, let's say that somebody, you
know, some people would have it the CIA as an agency, you know,
there's an operation, the conspiracy operation is already in play, you know,
or maybe we've got a set of rogues that are already have it in
play. But so the thought has been that we're going to to impersonate Oswald.
We're not sending him. Okay, we have to impersonate him, so
he's not even really there necessarily, but we're going to impersonate him in Mexico
City and introduce two things that he's being impersonated, Okay, and we're going
to introduce the name Costakov. We're gonna we're going to introduce, by way
of this imprompersonation that he has been in contact with the Russian agent. Okay,
a KGB agent. Okay, we know that. So, by the
way, just your average man off the street couldn't do this. It has
to be somebody in an intelligence agency who knows the implications of Costakov and costa
GOV talking to Russia. To Oswal, Yeah, the average citizen in nineteen
sixty three would have no idea who the hell Costakov is or what you know?
Section would please nobody knows Section five. But none of this, okay,
Oswo wouldn't know who Costakov was. Oswel would know I went to the
You know, he doesn't get to go to the Russian embassy and ask for
somebody. He gets to go to the Russian embassy and say, could somebody
talk with me? He doesn't go and ask for cost to call. So
he would know he had not even he would have known, But yeah,
that's the point. But then then the concept is that that somehow, after
the assassination, this will become a real concern. You know, Oswald talking
to the Russian, to the KGB just weeks before the assassination. Maybe there's
a Russian conspiracy. So I think that's a you know, in terms of
internal consistence, it's the NBA, right, Yeah, that's you could certainly
make that argument. Then it's a matter of does it match with everything else?
Right? The only logical counter I have for that, to be honest
with you, is, look, it's just to make him out to be
the communist sympathizer that he is. He's still the loan nut, right,
but he's a communist sympathizer. That's why he loves Castro. He's trying to
get back into Russia again. You know, come on, he's a community,
he's a comedy. That's all right, He's already in play from New
Orleans. We've got those headlines already. Absolutely that you don't need headlines to
say. I've got a copy of a newspaper from San Antonio on November twenty
third, says Castro supporter kills President. You didn't need to know about Costakov
to produce that, and it all comes it all, it's all there as
a matter of fact. If if let's take one step further and let's say
that this is a real serious plot by intelligence officers with resources inside the CIA.
These guys know how to carry off read Harvey's notes in terms of how
to carry off a deniable assassination that you're going to blame on the Russians,
okay, or the Communists. I mean, they know how to do it.
You can create you can fake photographs of OSWO meeting with a real Castro
agent. They've done that before, a standard practice. Fake a photo,
you know who Castro agents are, Fake a real covert communication. I mean
the CIA JM Wave had a whole list of Castro intelligence agents. So you
can fake a photo, fake a call, fake you know, something real.
You can set up a whole you know, yes, oswell is,
you know, set up a real payment. You could set up something that
was really solid that you dump on the table at the time of the assassination.
And there's no doubt about it. It's not just a name. It's
just not a fifteen minute meeting in Mexico City. It's a real hardcore indictment
of foreign sponsorship of the assassination. But that's not there. All we really
have is for someone, you know, is the issue of impersonation and a
brief meeting in the open and by the way, not covert. Oswell goes
to the Russian embassy and walks in and meets you know, and it's on
record, right would you do it that way if you were a Russian spy
master. Actually, Kostakov is known for a meeting with like Tumbleweed and with
Russian agents in the US and has been under surveillance, but he doesn't meet
with them at the Russian embassy. He meets with them out in Mexico.
You know, this is this is spike craft. So now that if that
would be my counter argument to that, if you're doing it with intelligence professionals,
you could make it. This isn't a very good solid case. And
the strange thing is the same thing the same people that have the same theory
of a poison pill that has intelligence agents behind the Coostakov Oswell impersonation record what
happens within like three or four days after the assassination. These are Mexico City
comes up with the guil Roberto Alverado story, which does indeed have Oswo meeting
with real people in the Cuban consulate. They have their names, they have
their descriptions, and Oslo has seen taken cash. Now is that supposed to
be a backup story. It's a better story than Costakov and it falls totally
apart within like three days in the FBI investigation. So the poison thing.
I wouldn't claim that the poison pill concept is not real. You just have
to look at all the other things that are going on and find more to
support it. And one of the things that strikes me is that when director
Hoover knows all about oz Will being in Mexico City and on the day of
the assassination, go oh, yeah, we know he was there. We
know he talked to the Russians. We know he either went to Cuba or
he was talking about going to Cuba. We're not sure why he knows all
that, and he doesn't really make a big deal of it. In a
conversation with Johnson within a couple of days of the assassination, he even says
to him, look, we know he was down there. We know he
was doing something right. I mean, isn't there a recording of that as
well, where he tells Johnson, look, you know, we knew about
this and that we know who this kid is. He's not worried about Oswell.
What he's worried about is at that point in time, and for some
reason we don't totally understand. I say, there are a lot of mysteries
going on for some reason the evening of the assassination. As early as the
evening, the concern is that Oswell has been impersonated. That the impersonation is
the big concern. It's not so much cost. It's like he was impersonated.
We don't know who, we don't know why, but clearly there's some
other people with knowledge of Oswald and we may have a conspiracy. Maybe they
really did set him up. It's not so much that that he's a sponsored
foreign agent shooter. It's that maybe these other people impersonated him and set them
up. And I think that's really it has always been the interesting thing to
me. And Hoover's not concerned at that point in time about Oswald being you
know, they pay this ass and he's concerned about being a patsy, which
is odd and okay, so what can we make sense of it? You
know, to this point and we'll get into solving this whole thing in the
next part. But how do we put a cap on this part of it?
Like, what is the most sensible explanation of what it is we witness?
Again, we put aside, side by side what's going on with Marina
and Lee and you know personally what it is they're attempting to do what makes
the most sense just logically. Look, they're dissatisfied with their circumstance, they're
trying to change those things. They're looking at different options. We got all
that, and then you have this nexus of intelligence games that are clearly of
importance in Mexico City. He should have been captured. I still don't understand
these, you know, pictures of the guy who looks like Alex carras you
know from the football player right, uh, you know, the mystery man
photos, you know, and and all that. I still don't understand that.
But anyway, let's put this aside. We know that there is a
web of intelligence assets to capture stuff like this with good reason, with agreements
with the government, with the CIA, with the you know, all of
that how do we make sense of this Mexico City trip? Is it just
as it appears? I mean, Oswald literally just said, look, I'm
gonna just take a shot at this, because we're gonna wind up waiting too
long on them to process in Moscow and they might not let me back in
anyway. And Cuba is a difficult thing to get into, but I gotta
make a I got to a stake a claim and try and get in there,
because that's the only workaround I have. Does that make the most sense.
Yeah, I think what makes the most sense is we have to separate
Oswald and his agenda and what he did, which actually was very minimal in
Mexico City. Provably about what Oswald did? You know, if you accept
what the Cubans say, you accept what the Russians say. It was very
straightforward. So let's kind of take Oswald out of that picture. Now,
what I would say we're left with the real mystery is why we have a
mystery. And you almost have to back up and say, you know,
there were several weeks that passed between the time that he was supposed to be
there, okay, and where all of this becomes a big mystery after the
assassination. Why why wasn't it all resolved? As you say, why why
wouldn't it be you know, why why are we unsure that it was Oswald?
You know, We're not unsure because of what Oswald did. We're unsure
about what's going on within the CIA itself, communications between the station and headquarters
headquarters in the station headquarters and other government agencies of the Mexico City station,
like the LEGOTT and other government I mean, we even we're in Dallas.
An agent Hoisty is told by somebody from the I n S that Lee Harvey
Oswald has been in Mexico City. It's not like nobody knows this. So
why would any of this be confusing? Why? Why would suddenly the issue
of an impersonation and become a big deal when up to that point in time,
there really is no nobody's confused. We all you know, we all
know he was there and you know, so why would suddenly that change?
And I think that's our next real question to tackle, Chuck, You know,
why why is there a mystery? And the mystery appears to come from
inside And I think when we reset to deal with it, it really all
gets back to Jane Roman when she's asked the question about why would you you
know, it's clear that people are confused and this thing about OSWA was not
reconciled because you were circulating misinformation and incomplete information. Well, right there off
the bat, we know why there's a mystery because people in different locations are
receiving bad and incomplete information. It's not Oscle's fault, you know, as
you said, why isn't a current Ostel photo in Mexico City and being shown?
You know, why is it? Why is the mystery man photo?
Where are they confused? And I think that's what we have to explore because
that's where the real mystery is. Well, I think the next time we
get together to Larry, here's what would be a useful thing to do is
to say, look, absent the assassination, what would have happened with this
information? There is clearly something would have happened with this information. As you
stated, Look, it was illegal at that time to even attempt to enter
Cuba, right, You couldn't try to make travel arrangements to go to Cuba.
This is something the FBI is already watching him. I think, absent
the assassination, we might have a different outcome here regarding all this information too,
and there'd be no need to cover everything up because the whole world wouldn't
be asking questions about this guy. Yeah, before the assassination. It's just
we know he was there. As Hosty will say, you know, it's
not like I didn't try to do something. I tried to locate him right
right. I went to his wife, I found where his wife was living.
We did a pretext call to where he was working to confirm he was
working there. It's weren't like they were totally ignoring him, you know,
So it is they They did respond, And of course, as you say,
one of the problems is all that sounds well and good. You know,
if your boss asked you on November tenth, what are you doing about
this Oswald guy, you go, well, I went and interviewed his wife.
I found out where's stayin or she's staining I'm working on. But that
sounds good. Then on November twenty second and twenty third, it doesn't sound
so good. Exactly exactly the issue. So next time we get together,
we'll kind of handle all the rest of these issues and sort of sum up
the mystery of Mexico City, Larryhncock once again, Larrydshancock dot com. Go
there check out his stuff. And we are talking about this because there is
an upcoming book regarding Lee RB. Oswald and taking another look at some of
the information that some of us are extremely familiar with, some of us maybe
to different degrees, but there's a lot to be said here about this historical
character and you know what, maybe it is a good time to re examine,
especially after new information has emerged and everything else. So Larry, I
thank you for doing this with me again this week. Oh you bet.
And by the way, check the title is going to be The Oswald Puzzle.
Oh, the Oswald Puzzle. There you go, The Oswald Puzzle by
Larry Hancock. That's what we'll be seeing coming out probably sometime this year,
you think, uh yeah, I would think so excellent. Can't wait to
see this thing, really, and who knows, maybe we'll hear about it
in Dallas excuse me in November because the Answer Conference will be happening. Hopefully
it'll be out and available by then. Oh absolutely, I look forward to
that absolutely. Anyway, With all that said, again, Larry Hancock was
my guest Larry Dashancock dot com. I highly recommend all of his work,
and I'll give you you know, I'll give you a couple of links to
his books as well. Go get them ahead of when you go get the
Oswald book. But Tipping Point and someone would have talked to have a little
something to do with tonight's topic as well, A little little something anyway,
Larry, thanks for doing this, and thank you guys for listening. After
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