1 00:00:17,039 --> 00:00:21,120 We're back with another edition of The Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Emil Jasinski, 2 00:00:21,160 --> 00:00:24,239 culture editor here at The Federalist. As always, you can email the show 3 00:00:24,239 --> 00:00:28,640 at radio at the Federalist dot com, follow us on Twitter at ftr LST. 4 00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:32,280 Make sure to subscribe wherever you download your podcasts, and to the premium 5 00:00:32,359 --> 00:00:36,479 version of our website as well. I'm joined today by Robert Leinheiser, who 6 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:40,520 is out with a new book, No Trade Is Free, changing course taking 7 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:45,520 on China and helping America's workers. Thank you so much for joining us. 8 00:00:45,520 --> 00:00:49,359 I really appreciate it. Well, thank you for having me on. I'm 9 00:00:49,439 --> 00:00:52,399 a big fan of The Federalist and so this is a thrill for me. 10 00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:56,759 I had the opportunity to hear you about an American Compass event recently, and 11 00:00:57,039 --> 00:00:59,840 I have a feeling that what you were talking about there is a lot of 12 00:01:00,119 --> 00:01:02,399 you know, a lot of that made it into the book if if I'm 13 00:01:03,119 --> 00:01:06,439 if my suspicions are correct, and that was excellent. So I'm very excited 14 00:01:06,480 --> 00:01:10,200 to dive into the book and to ask you some questions. And I want 15 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:14,680 to start with one that it's kind of a plays off of the subtitle of 16 00:01:14,719 --> 00:01:19,439 the book helping America's workers. That in and of itself it sounds obvious to 17 00:01:19,640 --> 00:01:23,280 you know, people who understand the problem, but I think a lot of 18 00:01:23,280 --> 00:01:26,920 people here in Washington don't. So the obvious question to toss your way would 19 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:30,519 be why do America's workers need help? Do they need help at all? 20 00:01:30,439 --> 00:01:36,120 As a question that some people seem to still be grappling with so so emily 21 00:01:36,159 --> 00:01:40,920 I appreciate that's the sort of the fundamental question I guess I would say, 22 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:47,319 um, to go back to first principles, what makes America great? Why 23 00:01:47,359 --> 00:01:49,959 are we the greatest country in the world? And why have we had the 24 00:01:49,959 --> 00:01:56,079 biggest economy in the world since at least in ninety and and we've been the 25 00:01:56,680 --> 00:02:00,400 you know, the greatest world power, either with someone else, serve by 26 00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:07,239 ourselves for a couple of generations or more so to me, what makes America 27 00:02:07,319 --> 00:02:13,759 great Our American communities and they're made out by American families, and they may 28 00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:16,280 have by American workers. So it all comes down to the workers. So 29 00:02:16,319 --> 00:02:22,680 the question is what is what should the objective of economic policy be? And 30 00:02:22,719 --> 00:02:27,240 then take a step inside of that and say trade policy and the objective of 31 00:02:27,280 --> 00:02:36,479 that policy should be to make America American workers better off, to have them 32 00:02:36,759 --> 00:02:43,159 have better jobs, make more money, stay together in their families, have 33 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:50,639 children that they're proud of and and hopeful form, and then that trades into 34 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:53,280 that translates into communities, and then that's what makes America great. So to 35 00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:58,560 me, it all comes down to the workers. The alternative thought would be 36 00:02:58,719 --> 00:03:04,400 that, no, it's a about corporate profits, or no, it's about 37 00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:08,280 having the cheapest consumption, right, and those are you know, those are 38 00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:13,560 kind of alternatives, And some people who think differently than I do would say, 39 00:03:13,560 --> 00:03:15,080 oh, no, it's really about consumption. You want to consumers to 40 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:20,639 be able to consume the most, and that means the cheapest price, even 41 00:03:21,479 --> 00:03:27,599 if that cheap price comes from China and from you know, slave labor, 42 00:03:27,719 --> 00:03:34,319 or from failure to enforced environmental laws or the life. So and then, 43 00:03:34,319 --> 00:03:36,680 of course, as I say to the third alternative, which is very much 44 00:03:36,759 --> 00:03:42,360 like the second alternative, is corporate profits. You want to maximize what's good 45 00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:46,439 for business, and I just think that's upside down, right. What's what's 46 00:03:46,439 --> 00:03:51,360 good for general motors is good for America's the kind of shifting mentality when you 47 00:03:51,439 --> 00:03:54,159 have the CEO of Nike going to China and saying we think of ourselves as 48 00:03:54,159 --> 00:03:58,800 a Chinese company or whatever. I'm paraphrasing what he said. And that's another 49 00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:02,400 question. Just in the the subheading of the book itself, taking on China 50 00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:06,879 and helping America's workers, your opponents, uh, you know, would probably 51 00:04:06,919 --> 00:04:11,439 counter and say taking on China to the point you just made, you know 52 00:04:11,639 --> 00:04:15,360 that that will increase the cost of goods and won't ultimately be good for American 53 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:19,079 workers. So this is another kind of huge question. But what is your 54 00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:23,199 response as to my taking on China? I mean, not only is this 55 00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:26,639 a huge question, this is like the focus of your work, but why 56 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:30,000 why do both of those things go together? And is there a way to 57 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:35,040 take on China that could end up not helping American workers? But you have 58 00:04:35,079 --> 00:04:38,959 to sort of do it the right way in order to help American workers. 59 00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:44,240 Well, look at look at I'm a believer in sort of a two staff 60 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:48,839 analysis. All right, the first analysis. The first question is is China 61 00:04:49,319 --> 00:04:56,759 a friend or is it an axisential threat, an adversary, a hostile military, 62 00:04:57,040 --> 00:05:00,680 aggressive power. Right, that's the fundamental question. If you don't get 63 00:05:00,759 --> 00:05:06,279 that question right, then everything you do looks wrong. Right, So I 64 00:05:06,319 --> 00:05:10,759 think it's easy to say yes, all those things are true. I thought 65 00:05:10,959 --> 00:05:14,800 it was easy to say yes in the nineties, and I said it in 66 00:05:14,879 --> 00:05:17,399 the op edge of the light. But by now, with the help of 67 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:20,920 seasing, paying, and all the other things that China has done, it 68 00:05:20,959 --> 00:05:27,120 should be obvious to any person of good will. So then the next question 69 00:05:27,399 --> 00:05:34,759 is how do we keep how do we prevail in this all important competition? 70 00:05:35,720 --> 00:05:40,920 And I would suggest the first thing you have to do is stop feeding the 71 00:05:40,959 --> 00:05:46,399 crocodile, right, you quit shifting hundreds of billions of dollars of American wealth 72 00:05:46,959 --> 00:05:53,839 to China, and you take back for American workers those jobs that we lost 73 00:05:55,040 --> 00:06:00,839 in the two thousands, largely because of a very very serious all see mistake, 74 00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:03,319 maybe one of the most serious we've ever made, and that is granting 75 00:06:03,399 --> 00:06:10,759 most favored nation treatment to a hostile country in the in this case China, 76 00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:14,600 of course. So we're in a competition with China. We have to do 77 00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:18,079 something about it. We've decided now that they are a very very big threat 78 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:21,000 to in the United States. Then the question is what do we do for 79 00:06:21,160 --> 00:06:27,319 me? It is strategic decoupling, because you can't continue to transfer well to 80 00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:30,600 them and technology and build up their army and their navy and all of these 81 00:06:30,639 --> 00:06:35,279 things once you realize how hostile they are now. The effect on American workers 82 00:06:35,279 --> 00:06:42,560 it's really quite simple. And the American workers lose jobs and upward pressure on 83 00:06:42,680 --> 00:06:48,639 wages because of China. And people say, well, you know, it 84 00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:53,399 was a popular view in the nineties that oh, well, we'll just trade 85 00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:57,480 and transfer our wealth to China and then they'll turn out to be like Switzerland. 86 00:06:58,319 --> 00:07:01,040 Well, you know, it was a foolish thought then, but a 87 00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:04,040 very common one in the nineties. But as I say, it's not a 88 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:12,800 position that one can can legitimately take in twenty and twenty three. So we 89 00:07:12,839 --> 00:07:16,439 need to bring war manufacturing back to the hind States, manufacturing jobs and the 90 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:20,759 jobs that are thrown off by manufacturing. We need to take care of our 91 00:07:20,759 --> 00:07:27,079 own people. If you drive through the Midwest, you see town after town, 92 00:07:27,279 --> 00:07:29,800 and not just the Midwest, by the way, the South and parts 93 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:33,720 of the East and West too. You drive through these places that it used 94 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:40,920 to have a vibrant manufacturing base, and you now see dilapidated ghost towns are 95 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:45,519 worse, and we have to reverse that. That was the result of a 96 00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:49,000 foolish policy. And now we know that policy was wrong, we have to 97 00:07:48,879 --> 00:07:54,680 have to take care of those workers, give them jobs. And I always 98 00:07:54,759 --> 00:08:00,120 like to say a job is not just about making money, although that's an 99 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:03,279 important part of it. A job is also about the dignity of work, 100 00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:07,839 right, That is, it is important for a person, whatever their job, 101 00:08:09,600 --> 00:08:13,519 to see themselves as contributing to society, that their work is useful, 102 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:22,519 and that they're reasonably compensated for it. So all of these things militate in 103 00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:26,519 favor of a different policy towards China, and for me, strategic coupling, 104 00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:31,600 and for me that has kind of free pieces. One you put tariffs on 105 00:08:31,799 --> 00:08:35,840 too, so that you get to balance trade. I'm not saying no trade 106 00:08:35,879 --> 00:08:37,600 with China. You know, they didn't say completely coupling. I think that's 107 00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:43,759 unrealistic and probably not helpful. But we ought to have balance trade with them. 108 00:08:43,919 --> 00:08:48,960 We ought to disngage our technology from theirs, and then we ought to 109 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:58,080 put restrictions, reasonable restrictions on outgoing and incoming investment from China. So anyway, 110 00:08:58,120 --> 00:09:01,879 that's that's kind of prescription. And you're right, and you talk about 111 00:09:01,879 --> 00:09:05,559 it in the book. And if I said something in American Compass, it's 112 00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:09,679 not in the book. Um, and it's really important to tell me because 113 00:09:09,679 --> 00:09:15,240 it's not just in the second book that's a fantastic it's it's pretty much all 114 00:09:15,399 --> 00:09:20,039 in there from my dive into it. And and that's where you're write about, 115 00:09:20,639 --> 00:09:24,960 um, your USMCA and what the next steps and all that could look 116 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:28,559 like. So if you know, there's a thirty thousand foot kind of assessment 117 00:09:30,039 --> 00:09:35,120 of how the Trump era trade policy, which obviously you are a big part 118 00:09:35,159 --> 00:09:39,000 of, what does that look like now that there's some distance in the rear 119 00:09:39,120 --> 00:09:41,200 view mirror, and obviously the Biden administration has kept some of the stuff, 120 00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:46,159 not all of the stuff. Um, what's your sort of overall take on 121 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:50,320 the trajectory of those policies and whether they worked, whether they didn't work, 122 00:09:50,399 --> 00:09:56,960 now that there's some distance there. So it's kind of funny the d accident 123 00:09:56,360 --> 00:10:03,360 in his book, President of the Creation, you made this point that when 124 00:10:03,399 --> 00:10:09,399 you write a book, it's hard to say what it was life not knowing 125 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:11,960 what the end would be at the time you made the decisions, right, 126 00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:15,879 And that's a hard thing to convey. And the same thing is true here. 127 00:10:15,879 --> 00:10:20,600 We have to put ourselves kind of back and say, what was the 128 00:10:20,639 --> 00:10:24,399 situation. Let's just focus on China, because there's kind of two points. 129 00:10:24,440 --> 00:10:28,320 One is China and the other is a worker oriented trade policy US. This 130 00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:33,200 focus on China, what did people think in two and seventeen? And people 131 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:37,759 were still very much of the myth that we could work together and accomplish things 132 00:10:37,799 --> 00:10:43,440 together. And one of the grail contributions that President drum made and that those 133 00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:48,200 of the administration made was exposing to the world that that's not true and convincing 134 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:54,039 Americans that that's not true. That we're in a competition and we're losing that 135 00:10:54,200 --> 00:11:01,399 competition and we're losing it because of wrong policy choices that we're making a right 136 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:05,840 so so so now I say, do I think it was a success? 137 00:11:05,919 --> 00:11:09,519 The answer is yes, I think it was. It was a great success, 138 00:11:11,159 --> 00:11:13,240 But it wasn't you know? On this Every now and then I'll quote 139 00:11:13,279 --> 00:11:16,879 Churchill, I know, you know that the famous you know is just know 140 00:11:16,960 --> 00:11:22,200 the the end or the beginning, and then he ends up by saying, 141 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:26,080 this is the end of the beginning. I think that what we did was 142 00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:33,039 the beginning of a very smart policy, uh strategy that will lead to strategic 143 00:11:33,279 --> 00:11:39,360 company. But anyway, no one, no rational person leaves that what we 144 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:45,679 did is enough to tip the scales ultimately and be the COUDI gross and now 145 00:11:45,679 --> 00:11:50,200 we're going to take over China and we're going to be more powerful than I 146 00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:52,399 mean. Well, stay that this week changes the trajectory so that now China 147 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:56,840 is not catching up with us as much. What we did was start a 148 00:11:56,840 --> 00:12:01,639 new policy, and it was a month monumental start. But we need more, 149 00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:05,279 and I believe that if President Trump had been elected, we would have 150 00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:09,919 gotten more. I think if he's elected in twenty four we will get more. 151 00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:15,799 I think if some of the other Republican candidates are elected, we will 152 00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:20,120 also get more. They will move in the direction and continue what we started. 153 00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:24,240 But you don't want to diminish how important it was to start, because 154 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:31,519 we literally turned the ship around and put in place tariffs and began the process 155 00:12:31,559 --> 00:12:37,960 of decoupling. We put export controls. Secretary Ross and others put export controls 156 00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:43,519 on. We did a lot of very important fundamental things that had really never 157 00:12:43,639 --> 00:12:48,039 been done before like that. But for sure more needs to be done. 158 00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:50,159 So I'm really happy with what we did on China. I think it was 159 00:12:50,759 --> 00:12:56,360 one of the two or three greatest accomplishments of the last administration. Now, 160 00:12:56,440 --> 00:13:01,360 in terms of the current administration, like most administrations, it has people in 161 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:05,159 it who would say yes, that's correct and people who would say no, 162 00:13:07,279 --> 00:13:11,840 I'm sorry to get the opinion that the president, President Biden is in the 163 00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:16,840 group that doesn't think we have a serious problem, which ida that's a you 164 00:13:16,879 --> 00:13:20,919 know, a very very small group of Americans who are thoughtful and think that, 165 00:13:22,799 --> 00:13:28,279 and he clearly does seems to want a softer, more uh you know, 166 00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:35,159 kind of a policy that will allow them to continue to take our technology, 167 00:13:35,639 --> 00:13:39,600 to take our wealth, and to become the number one power in the 168 00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:43,360 world. That seems to be where they're going now. I've said that they 169 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:50,039 still have our tariffs in place, and some of the people in this administration, 170 00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:54,279 I don't want to get into names, are very good on this issue 171 00:13:54,440 --> 00:13:58,279 and I but I just feel that the President is not in that group. 172 00:14:01,799 --> 00:14:05,120 Every year, children are trafficked around the world. And now there's a new 173 00:14:05,159 --> 00:14:09,799 movie aimed at raising awareness to this often unseen horror. It's called Sound of 174 00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:13,320 Freedom from Angels Studios. Sound of Freedom is based on a true story. 175 00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:18,440 It shines a light on even the darkest of places. After rescuing a young 176 00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:22,960 boy from ruthless child traffickers, a federal agent learns the boy's sister is still 177 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:26,200 captive and decides to embark on a dangerous mission to save her. 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You know That's exactly what I was going to ask 205 00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:27,600 you next, because I wanted to ask us about the Republican field ahead of 206 00:16:27,679 --> 00:16:32,840 us and just the Democratic Party in general, because there has been Um, 207 00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:37,000 it does seem and things that I've heard from from folks is that the Biden 208 00:16:37,039 --> 00:16:41,279 administration has people that are kind of going in both directions, and it's sort 209 00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:44,480 of similar to the Trump administration. And I know that you, I'm sure 210 00:16:44,519 --> 00:16:48,679 you had to fight um for a lot of you know, your your policies, 211 00:16:48,679 --> 00:16:52,360 although the president himself seemed to very clearly understand the problem. What would 212 00:16:52,399 --> 00:16:56,360 your expectation be, Um, you know, what does the Republican field? 213 00:16:56,360 --> 00:17:00,600 What's your assessment of the Republican field now? At absorb were being some of 214 00:17:00,639 --> 00:17:04,440 the very obvious lessons that you know, nobody was really talking about until Donald 215 00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:07,759 Trump came along and made them sort of front and center in our political discourse. 216 00:17:08,079 --> 00:17:11,119 And does it seem as though some Democrats, you know, you're shared 217 00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:15,720 Brown's Um, some of those people who kind of understand what's happened to your 218 00:17:15,839 --> 00:17:22,359 homestate of Ohio are players of my homestate of Wisconsin. M Are they are? 219 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:26,960 Are there chances that another Biden term would you know, see the starting 220 00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:32,160 to continue with the ball rolling down the hill in the right direction. So 221 00:17:32,319 --> 00:17:36,160 so so I don't want to talk about the Republican candidates and then I'll and 222 00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:40,240 then I'll talk about the let's just talk generally about it there, I would 223 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:44,079 say, first of all, no one will run on a soft on China 224 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:48,319 policy, because that's the equivalent of saying, putting up your handasy, I've 225 00:17:48,319 --> 00:17:52,920 decided I don't want to be elected, right because their country is not there. 226 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:57,039 So the issue for a candidate will be if they're kind of a free 227 00:17:57,079 --> 00:18:02,759 trade let's you know, it's important that corporation makes foodles of money and that 228 00:18:03,359 --> 00:18:06,519 a guy with two billion has a fair chance to get the three billion. 229 00:18:06,599 --> 00:18:08,720 You know, that's a high priority. If you think like that, you'll 230 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:12,799 say China batch, China bad, China bad, Let's do nothing right. 231 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:17,680 That'll be kind of your policy. And that's kind of the globalist part of 232 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:22,319 the Republican Party. That's kind of where they are. And it's a it's 233 00:18:22,359 --> 00:18:26,079 a shrinking, shrinking group, right, It's a you know that they have 234 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:32,400 almost no representatives in Congress, and you know that's kind of a you know, 235 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:36,960 kind of a Harvard Economics Department kind of a view. But if you 236 00:18:37,039 --> 00:18:40,839 have that view, you'll say I want to be tough on China, and 237 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:44,359 you'll say I'll be toalugh on China by doing nothing, all right. Then 238 00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:48,480 the other group are people who will actually get it all right, and they'll 239 00:18:48,519 --> 00:18:52,759 want to do something. And there are several that are in this group that 240 00:18:52,799 --> 00:18:56,799 are not, in my judgment, globalists, and they'll want to do something. 241 00:18:56,880 --> 00:19:04,000 Then the question will be do they have the actual the guts is sort 242 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:07,039 of a crude word, but there's an even cruder what's right? Do they 243 00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:14,480 have the guts to follow through and do these things when all the clever people 244 00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:18,559 and all the businesses are on the other side. And that's a question mark. 245 00:19:18,839 --> 00:19:23,119 I know how hard that is because I had to do it, and 246 00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:26,920 I had the benefit of President Trump, right, who was because to stand 247 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:32,480 up and do it was right. I'll be damned right. So there's so 248 00:19:32,559 --> 00:19:37,839 you have people who really don't agree with where we are. Then you have 249 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:41,480 people who agree, and then the question with them will be whether they really 250 00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:45,240 will be able to get to do it when they get in. And then 251 00:19:45,279 --> 00:19:48,960 you have a few I told the President drump is in this group who without 252 00:19:49,079 --> 00:19:52,720 question, you know what he'll do, right, he gets it, he 253 00:19:52,759 --> 00:19:57,720 understands that he'll do it. So you know, that's kind of the analysis 254 00:19:57,759 --> 00:20:03,000 on my side. Do on this on these two issues, the trade being 255 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:07,920 worked or oriented in China? Do I trust all the Republican candidates. I 256 00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:12,200 think every one of them, I mean this, honestly would be better than 257 00:20:14,559 --> 00:20:18,200 President Biden. But I don't think they would all be great. So then 258 00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:22,920 you look on the other side, and you mentioned Jared Brown, and for 259 00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:26,079 sure he gets right. His background is very similar to mine, and he 260 00:20:26,119 --> 00:20:30,160 gets it. He wrote a book on trade years and years and years ago. 261 00:20:30,359 --> 00:20:36,680 So there clearly are parts of the Democratic Party that are really good on 262 00:20:36,759 --> 00:20:41,079 this issue, both the China issue and on the worker oriented trading issue. 263 00:20:41,079 --> 00:20:44,240 And I worked with a lot of them. I don't want to start naming, 264 00:20:45,119 --> 00:20:48,319 you know, seven of them think I've dropped him un intentionally, But 265 00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:52,920 those are the people I worked with, and that's why we got ninety percent 266 00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:56,000 of Republicans and ninety percent of Democrats on the USMCA vote. Those there are 267 00:20:56,000 --> 00:21:00,839 a bunch of them who get it. The problem is there are also a 268 00:21:00,839 --> 00:21:07,839 bunch of globalists. And I believe and people who are so conventional that they 269 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:11,880 look at the old economics of years ago that's been proven wrong and they want 270 00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:15,400 to sort of fall into line with that, and they don't remember, No 271 00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:19,720 Republican Party is no longer the party a big business. So if you're like 272 00:21:19,759 --> 00:21:23,000 a big banker and all of that, you have an extreme or big tech 273 00:21:23,279 --> 00:21:29,359 extreme interest in influence over the Democratic Party and very little of the Republican Party. 274 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:33,440 So on the Democratic side, there are some very good members of Congress 275 00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:41,319 on these issues that I care about. The candidate will be President Biden, 276 00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:47,920 and I do not believe that he understands it, or gets it, or 277 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:52,400 will stand up to China. I do not believe it. I was hoping 278 00:21:52,519 --> 00:21:59,559 for a long time because I think that the people who got it his administration 279 00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:07,319 were prevailing. They were aided by the fact that politically you couldn't For example, 280 00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:08,480 you're rid of the tariffs, right, you just couldn't do it. 281 00:22:08,759 --> 00:22:11,799 Just be the equivalent thing, I surrender China, and that's not going to 282 00:22:11,839 --> 00:22:15,599 get you like, but I do. I'm more and more of the view 283 00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:22,440 that this administration is drifting into the pro China camp, either for foreign policy 284 00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:30,319 reasons or because big business wants to make money, or or because they have 285 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:37,720 some personal state in China industry. Right, So those are like the three 286 00:22:37,759 --> 00:22:42,640 positive I's probably a couple and more than I haven't thought of. So overall, 287 00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:48,839 I am very pessimistic that if Joe Biden is elected that we will even 288 00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:56,160 continue the tough policy that President Drum started. I think we'll go back. 289 00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:57,720 I think the rid of the tariffs and I think we're going to fall into 290 00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:02,519 them, have a real, real and no political leverage to change it. 291 00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:06,519 So that's very scary to me. As they say on the Republican side, 292 00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:11,640 is a mixed fact. There's two or three people maybe three or four who 293 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:15,599 I think would want to do the right thing and would know what the right 294 00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:18,680 thing is, and the only question to them is where they do it right? 295 00:23:18,519 --> 00:23:22,759 So you know, that's kind of my analysis. Politically, I do 296 00:23:22,839 --> 00:23:27,799 think that with the American people in both parties, the vast majority of them 297 00:23:27,799 --> 00:23:33,160 who think about this issue, we have convinced them of the rightness of our 298 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:40,519 position. Absolutely. And you just said something so interesting about the Republican candidates 299 00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:44,960 versus a second Biden term. And you know, when I talk to people 300 00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:47,359 on the left, I think it's abundantly obvious. So a lot of folks 301 00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:49,680 on the right now that the Republican Party is really no longer the party of 302 00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:53,359 big business that's sort of split with the Chamber of Commerce, has been conspicuous 303 00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:57,319 and serious, But folks on the left are still so deeply skeptical of that. 304 00:23:57,319 --> 00:24:00,279 They'll say, yeah, right, what are you talking about out and 305 00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:03,200 from your perspective, having sort of been inside the halls of power and you 306 00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:07,720 know, been being the subject of plenty of attacks from that sort of Chamber 307 00:24:07,759 --> 00:24:11,880 of commerce wing, can you speak to you know how clear that divorce really 308 00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:15,839 has been in recent years, well in the verse way. So it's it's 309 00:24:15,839 --> 00:24:19,200 only my own experience, right, And there's all kind of stuff going on 310 00:24:19,279 --> 00:24:26,039 that I'm not privy too, but I think it's a fundamental shift. I 311 00:24:26,079 --> 00:24:32,640 think the Chamber of Commerce, who I fought with the end the Business Roundtable, 312 00:24:32,839 --> 00:24:34,240 you know, I mean it was a gentlemanly fight, but we've got 313 00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:37,400 a lot of issues. They post me everything I did, not just with 314 00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:44,119 respect of China, but also USMCA and Japan and Korea. Um, these 315 00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:48,720 are so much like the Business round Table. It's it's it's the Chamber of 316 00:24:48,759 --> 00:24:55,920 commerce. They fought me because they want because they're basically controlled by big business, 317 00:24:56,559 --> 00:25:02,920 and big business is making a lot lots of money with the status quo, 318 00:25:03,759 --> 00:25:08,160 and what they're what we're really doing is shifting the current policy, if 319 00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:15,279 you think of that in economic terms, is shifting resources away from workers and 320 00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:19,359 into the pockets into the pockets of sort of rent seekers, if you want 321 00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:25,240 to use the old traditional terms. Right. So, we are basically transferring 322 00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:29,519 the wealth of this country. And that's why you see middle class people getting 323 00:25:29,559 --> 00:25:33,440 poorer, the bottom in the middle class dropping out. You have this this 324 00:25:33,559 --> 00:25:36,720 inequity, and then you see the very very rich get rich. And of 325 00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:41,960 course before we have programs for and I think that is I used to say 326 00:25:41,079 --> 00:25:47,000 years ago, I used to say, they have a name for countries like 327 00:25:47,079 --> 00:25:52,359 that, they call them South America. Right, That's what it was. 328 00:25:52,039 --> 00:25:56,039 And now we are moving in that direction. And it's very very troubling to 329 00:25:56,119 --> 00:26:02,240 me. It's troubling to me that that that and I'm I'm so proud of 330 00:26:02,319 --> 00:26:07,799 the fact that the Republican Party has become the party of the working people, 331 00:26:07,039 --> 00:26:11,400 right, I mean that that makes me probably because I am a base rock 332 00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:19,559 conservative. I analyze everything through a conservative prison. And the fact that that 333 00:26:19,599 --> 00:26:25,160 the Republican Party wants to preserve the values, the greatness of the American middle 334 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:29,599 class, the greatness of the American workers makes me proud to be a Republican. 335 00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:33,880 I mean, it really does. And and and in the fact that 336 00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:38,279 the Chamber of Commerce and these people are trying to go in the other direction 337 00:26:38,559 --> 00:26:42,759 and opposing everything we're trying to do, that in a way is almost a 338 00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:49,920 verification that what you're doing is the right thing for the right people. The 339 00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:55,759 Senator Rubio reflects on the Reagan administration, which you were a part of, 340 00:26:55,799 --> 00:26:59,839 and that gives you, I think, fascinating perspective on the sort of arc 341 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:03,559 of the modern Republican Party, especially since the approach to trade, the approach 342 00:27:03,599 --> 00:27:07,960 to industry and business more generally is such an a central glimpse into all of 343 00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:11,079 that. He puts it well. And so that Reagan was a man who, 344 00:27:11,799 --> 00:27:15,200 you know, understood the moment, the conservatism that America needed in the 345 00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:18,920 moment. And uh, you know, Reagan would have been flexible enough to 346 00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:23,799 understand what version of conservatism is and that version to mean they're different, but 347 00:27:23,839 --> 00:27:30,119 like what conservative policy agenda is needed in this moment and given your vantage point. 348 00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:33,960 Um, that's you know, it's so helpful to that exact question I 349 00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:37,680 wanted to ask. Regan had obviously had a much more complicated legacy on trade 350 00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:41,119 than a lot of the sort of libertarians in Washington like to pretend, although 351 00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:45,079 some of them are still salty about it. Um, what is the what 352 00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:49,960 can we learn from the Reagan approach to putting America first? Um? While 353 00:27:51,039 --> 00:27:56,119 also you know, putting America first by making goods cheaper, but doing it 354 00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:59,960 in a smart way and approaching these relationships in a way that puts American work 355 00:28:00,519 --> 00:28:04,680 first, in American families and communities first. So there's a lot in that. 356 00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:08,519 It's it's it's just it's just fun to have this conversation, and I 357 00:28:08,559 --> 00:28:14,680 hope that the listeners enjoyed as much as I do. So there's there's an 358 00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:18,759 awful out there. First of all, you know, kind of what is 359 00:28:18,799 --> 00:28:22,079 the Republican Party. Let's think about that exact So it clearly initially was an 360 00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:26,440 anti slave party, right, and then they got rid of slavery, and 361 00:28:26,559 --> 00:28:33,200 it morphed into a big business well, let's just say a business party, 362 00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:37,160 because in a lot of the country, there was no big business like a 363 00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:38,960 lot of things like this, we went through a period where big business took 364 00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:44,359 over. But you always had if you think of it analytically, you always 365 00:28:44,359 --> 00:28:47,599 had two Republican parties, and you sort of alluded to this. You had 366 00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:52,759 the Northeastern Rockefeller types, and there were a lot of different people who carried 367 00:28:52,799 --> 00:28:56,960 that then. And then you had the Robert Taft types, the Bob Dole 368 00:28:56,039 --> 00:29:03,559 types, kind of the Midwest workers, both small business, store owner Republican 369 00:29:03,599 --> 00:29:07,160 party. Those are the two different Republican parties. One was kind of elite 370 00:29:07,279 --> 00:29:11,240 and and basically, as I say, on the Northeast, the one was. 371 00:29:11,359 --> 00:29:14,400 The other was in the rest of the country and largely in small towns, 372 00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:21,000 in country clubs, but not in fancy country clubs. Um. The 373 00:29:22,079 --> 00:29:26,200 that party through all that time had one thing in common. For let's say, 374 00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:29,039 at least in July, is now one thing in common, and that 375 00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:33,799 is it was for tariffs to help businesses, which I would say also health 376 00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:38,839 workers. Um you saw. I know it's kind of a complicated case. 377 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:41,319 I will talk about that, but what I can if you want. But 378 00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:47,240 we sort of jump ahead. Now we have Ronald Reagan. Ronald Reagan is 379 00:29:47,359 --> 00:29:53,000 running against not just Jimmy Carter, but remember he ran against Joe Ford, 380 00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:56,599 and Joel Ford was from the Middlewest, but he was very much of the 381 00:29:56,799 --> 00:30:02,119 Rockefeller part of the Republican Party. He he was not from the Northeast, 382 00:30:02,519 --> 00:30:10,200 but that was the group that sort of he came from. And now you 383 00:30:10,279 --> 00:30:14,759 have Ronald Reagan, who's who's obviously from the midwestern Italy too. But but 384 00:30:14,759 --> 00:30:18,039 but now governor California from the West, and he runs basically a populous, 385 00:30:18,319 --> 00:30:26,119 common sense, pro worker kind of a you know, a rent for president. 386 00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:29,720 He does not win in seventy six, is hard to be an incumbent, 387 00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:36,599 but he does win in eighty and and he's attacked. He's attacked by 388 00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:41,960 the Democrats, but also attacked by the sort of elite Northeastern Republicans who are 389 00:30:41,319 --> 00:30:47,480 a shrinking and shrinking group and went to the Union vote in eighty He won 390 00:30:47,519 --> 00:30:49,519 the union vote, right, well, I don't know if he won it 391 00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:53,480 or not. He may have, but he certainly got a percent of it 392 00:30:53,559 --> 00:30:57,000 that was out of scale from anyone had ever done before, right, so 393 00:30:57,039 --> 00:31:06,400 he for sure that was his group. Then you had the the let's just 394 00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:11,039 say the bushes at sander Ridge frogs. They were very much of the Northeastern 395 00:31:11,119 --> 00:31:15,720 group, right, and that was a group that by the time they came 396 00:31:15,759 --> 00:31:21,119 in, was largely dead, right, think, we didn't have any governors, 397 00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:25,440 we didn't have we have very congressmen. We had no senators from that 398 00:31:25,559 --> 00:31:30,480 from the whole northeast. But yet they were sort of of that group. 399 00:31:30,759 --> 00:31:33,799 And then you have around Reagan. I'm sorry that you had Donald Trump who 400 00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:38,880 came along and he's like rank right, he's basically a populist. So you 401 00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:41,279 know, that's kind of the arc of the party. And I think the 402 00:31:41,359 --> 00:31:48,200 party, now everyone would agree, is a working person party. A part 403 00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:49,880 of what's happened, by the way, is that business has changed, right, 404 00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:53,559 and all of a sudden, the banks are all Democrat, and tech 405 00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:57,200 is all Democrats, all the biggest companies all as an exaggeration, of course, 406 00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:04,039 but largely so. So what is Ronald Reagan's um legacy on trede You 407 00:32:04,079 --> 00:32:07,680 alluded to it, You're exactly right, not when when? When when he 408 00:32:07,839 --> 00:32:12,920 left office, the libertarian said he was the most protectionist president since Hoover. 409 00:32:13,599 --> 00:32:16,839 They opposed everything that we did, and I was part of that, but 410 00:32:16,839 --> 00:32:23,680 but he he saved the country in a way not unlike the way that that 411 00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:30,039 that Donald Trump did in twenty and sixteen. So he took on Japan, 412 00:32:30,079 --> 00:32:34,039 which was the big problem. He limited their steely and while other people still 413 00:32:34,079 --> 00:32:37,519 lived at automobile, semiconductors, motorcycles, you know, the whole, the 414 00:32:37,519 --> 00:32:40,640 whole group of things, he was at, you know, kind of an 415 00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:46,359 economic patriot. That's where he was coming from. Um And and you know, 416 00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:50,039 then, as I say, we lost that for a period of time, 417 00:32:50,799 --> 00:32:52,839 and then when Trump came in, we got it back. And I 418 00:32:52,839 --> 00:32:58,200 would say when Trump came in, the case was even clearer. But another 419 00:32:58,279 --> 00:33:05,799 kind of way to think about this is Ronald Reagan talked about supply side economics, 420 00:33:05,799 --> 00:33:08,000 all right, cutting taxes to get businesses to operate, blah blah blah 421 00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:15,839 blah blah. How different is that than saying we are for the production side 422 00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:19,799 of the scale, which is kind of something I mentioned a few minutes ago, 423 00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:25,240 rather than the consumption side of the scale. Supply side and pro production, 424 00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:30,359 which is really where Trump was coming from, are very much the same 425 00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:34,680 thing, and they had the same things in common. Now, the trade 426 00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:38,640 situation had gotten much worse than rival Reagan was there, so that became a 427 00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:44,119 far bigger job for President Trump than it would have been for Reagan. But 428 00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:49,880 if you think about it, it's cutting taxes, cutting regulation, getting a 429 00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:53,160 fair trade. All of these were the basic things that Ronald Reagan did in 430 00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:57,880 his own time and that Donald Trump did this time, and that I believe 431 00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:02,119 the next Republican can, and they'd be a Trumps or someone else, because 432 00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:06,279 I don't think a big you know, a big bank kind of a guy. 433 00:34:06,359 --> 00:34:08,480 Can we in our globalists? Can we in our nomination? And may 434 00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:15,239 be wrong by the way, I've been wrong before, but not often so 435 00:34:15,679 --> 00:34:20,679 so I feel you know that that we have changed the way we as a 436 00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:22,719 party are, that we are as I said before, and I'm proud of 437 00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:30,719 the fact that we worry more about those people that I grew up with in 438 00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:36,360 Asheville, Ohio, and where you grew up with in Wisconsin, and a 439 00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:40,519 thousand other thousand. There's ten thousand and twenty thousand other places. We worry 440 00:34:40,559 --> 00:34:45,480 more about them and their life than I believe the Democrats. You know, 441 00:34:45,519 --> 00:34:47,920 they would argue with me, I would say, no, they're worried about 442 00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:53,880 other things that have nothing to do with economics and the quality of life of 443 00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:58,880 those people, they're they're worried about other things, and that you know that 444 00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:07,360 the Republican Party is going to prevail because it's the working class party. And 445 00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:15,039 it's so interesting that that perspective on where people forget about Reagan sort of coming 446 00:35:15,079 --> 00:35:22,800 in and priming forward and being that sort of populist opponent of the establishment my 447 00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:24,960 wing of the Republican Party, and even at the time, this is the 448 00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:28,880 only thing that that sort of baffles me always if I go back and look 449 00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:32,519 at, you know, someone like what Murray Rothbard was writing about NAFTA and 450 00:35:32,559 --> 00:35:37,639 saying about NAFTA, there's the split that just you go in these different directions 451 00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:43,599 around the time of NAFTA and then into wto or the Republican Party. I've 452 00:35:43,639 --> 00:35:46,519 never fully been able to understand how a lot of people, some of them 453 00:35:46,599 --> 00:35:52,039 were from the Reagan administration and involved in what you all did and it became 454 00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:57,199 very very you know, sort of open border, open market, all of 455 00:35:57,239 --> 00:36:00,159 that. And I wonder if you have perspective on you know, why HI 456 00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:04,119 that side one out. I think the obvious answer is probably money, because 457 00:36:04,159 --> 00:36:06,880 there was, you know, at the same time, a good argument and 458 00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:10,119 a consource of money to be made, but why is it that, you 459 00:36:10,159 --> 00:36:15,280 know, sort of the Rothbart's kind of fade into the background for a while, 460 00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:20,280 and this argument really took hold and dominated the GOP until Donald Trump came 461 00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:30,639 along. You know, first of all, there's a theology that people have 462 00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:35,760 that that you know, doesn't really have much to do with sense of facts, 463 00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:38,639 and there's a lot of people just have this infection, this theology of 464 00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:44,000 free trade. That's number one. Number two, there was a misconception, 465 00:36:44,119 --> 00:36:47,320 but a very common conception, that we are an agricultural party, by the 466 00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:52,440 way most conservative parties are in the world, that we're an aggreend. Agriculture 467 00:36:52,559 --> 00:36:58,000 wants free trade. And the truth is that in trade deals, agriculture tends 468 00:36:58,039 --> 00:37:04,840 to do better than manufact lecturing because other countries want access to our manufacturing market. 469 00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:09,559 So there was there was some element of that in it. Your senator 470 00:37:09,559 --> 00:37:13,559 from an agricultural state in the Midwest, you're going to be a free trader, 471 00:37:13,679 --> 00:37:17,320 that the agricultural groups are free traders. And part of what we did 472 00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:22,559 was convinced them and show them, not really show them that nobody is treated 473 00:37:22,599 --> 00:37:27,119 worse in trade than agriculture. They are lizard in the horstry because everyone is 474 00:37:27,159 --> 00:37:31,079 protections in that area. So so part of it was just an infection infectious 475 00:37:31,159 --> 00:37:37,079 theology. Part of it was there was this sort of sense about agriculture, 476 00:37:39,559 --> 00:37:44,880 you know. Part of it was just a hope, right in other words, 477 00:37:45,639 --> 00:37:52,000 you hadn't seen enough damage done to be able to look at the facts. 478 00:37:52,039 --> 00:37:57,679 If you look like at my my, if you look at my epigram, 479 00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:01,400 right, my epigram is I have a quote from from John Wooden that 480 00:38:01,599 --> 00:38:07,360 says failure may not be fatal, but failure to change maybe. And we 481 00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:12,360 had people that just wouldn't change. And then the final piece is what you 482 00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:15,960 said, big business was making lots of money, and as they became more 483 00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:21,440 importers, you know, they would, they would, they had a bigger, 484 00:38:21,599 --> 00:38:24,199 bigger stake, And so you ended up with one trade round after another, 485 00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:28,239 and then you had to try what I call it the tr effect of 486 00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:32,400 stupid, all of which was done by Bill Clinton but could never have been 487 00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:37,320 done without the Republican Party supporting him, you know, And that is NAFTA 488 00:38:38,119 --> 00:38:42,199 the year A way around which you could think of is the WTO and all 489 00:38:42,199 --> 00:38:46,280 the parts of that, and then giving China Mfan all that happened in a 490 00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:55,760 very short period of time, right around the end of Clinton's first term, 491 00:38:55,880 --> 00:39:00,480 and in the case of China, as he's walking out the door and turning 492 00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:04,519 out the lights, he's given the country to China. And that's those are 493 00:39:04,599 --> 00:39:09,199 three really bad policies. He gets the blame, the condemnation for all of 494 00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:14,400 them, but they all couldn't have been done without a lot of republic enthusiastic 495 00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:19,400 Republicans, you know, who kind of bought this notion that we just trade 496 00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:22,039 and trade trade. Basically, when they say trade, they mean by we 497 00:39:22,239 --> 00:39:24,800 just buy enough from China. They're going to be good people. And they 498 00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:30,400 didn't understand communism, and they didn't understand the threat. They didn't understand now, 499 00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:37,840 they didn't understand the history at all. So priture. It has changed. 500 00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:44,559 And the thing that's made it so important is not just the intellectual side 501 00:39:44,559 --> 00:39:50,800 of the change, but it's the practical political side of the change. Right. 502 00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:57,280 Our voters are those people. It's no longer enough to be able to 503 00:39:57,320 --> 00:40:00,280 say the Chamber of Commerce supports me. That won't get you in anything. 504 00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:07,000 Our voters are those working class people, and they know it. The book 505 00:40:07,079 --> 00:40:10,639 is called No Trade is Free changing course, taking on China and helping America's 506 00:40:10,679 --> 00:40:13,840 workers. And one of the things I love about it is that you actually 507 00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:19,760 have You call it a short and selective history of American trade policy, but 508 00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:22,800 it's it is really, really helpful and touches on so much that you were 509 00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:25,239 kind enough to share with us here. Robert Leitheizer, thank you so much 510 00:40:25,239 --> 00:40:29,760 for joining us. Yeah, only thank you for happy It was a ball. 511 00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:32,840 Of course, you've been listening to another edition of The Federalist Radio Hour. 512 00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:36,920 I'm e Eleikashitsky, culture editor here at the Federalist. We'll be back 513 00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:40,440 soon with more. Until then, be lovers of freedom and anxious for the fray.