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Understand the thinking atheist. It's not
a person, it's a symbol, an

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idea. The population of atheists in
this country is going through the rule,

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rejecting faith, pursuing knowledge, challenging
the sacred. If I tell the truth,

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it's because I tell the truth,
not because I put my hand on

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a book and made a wish and
working together for a more rational world.

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Take the risk of thinking. Feel
so much more happiness, truth, beauty,

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and wisdom will come to you that
way. Assume nothing, question everything,

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and start thinking. This is the
Thinking Atheist podcast hosted by Seth Andrews.

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Last time I saw my special guest, it was in Los Angeles.

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This was way before COVID. How
many years ago, Kara, do you

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remember seven years something? Like?
I remember it because I like there were

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a lot of photos that were taking. This was when we were on stage,

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right, Yeah, we were doing
some speaking event and I, you

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know, I'm just actually a photograph
I think on my website where it's you

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me, Matt Delahunty, and I'm
sitting next to you and here you are,

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this scientist, and I'm like,
just this dude. But I looked

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credible because we were sitting next to
me. I thought, oh yeah,

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I don't because I'm wearing like a
Rancid T shirt. Kara Santa Maria.

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She is a science communicator. She
hosts the Talk Nerdy podcast. You may

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know her as well from this Skeptics
Guide to the Universe podcast. She has

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degrees in psychology, philosophy, biological
science. She focuses heavily on neuro science.

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She's still living in Los Angeles.
Kara, I'm not actually well.

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I am like, my house is
in Los Angeles. My life is a

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Los Angeles, but I'm in Florida
for a one year internship, which is

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the last year of my PhD program. So I've got five just under five

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months left out here in Fort Lauderdale, Florida. I'm very sorry for your

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loss. We're going to come back
to Florida in just a second. You

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may have seen Kara on I don't
know, tons of shows National Geographic Channel,

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and she's on the Netflix series Bill
Nye Saved the World, and she's

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talked to pretty much everybody. So
I'm going through doing my due diligence.

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I know everybody brings this up because
it's on your freaking wiki page. You're

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a singer, how did I not
know this about you? Yeah, that's

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probably that should be past ten flick
in amaze. You were a singer?

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You were when I first went to
college. Actually, I studied vocal jazz

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performance and then switch major's part way
through and ended up doing psych and philosophy

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in my undergrad Yeah. I loved
singing. I was really competitive jazzinger in

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high school, and like I said, I got into it at the university

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level too. I went to a
phenomenal music school called the University of North

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Texas. It's like the first I
think they offered the first PhD in jazz

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studies like in the country. But
what I found was that studying it academically

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sucked a lot of the joy out
of it for me. Isn't that the

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way it often is? Right?
Yeah? And so you know, I

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wasn't enjoying. I like music theory, but I don't like that much music

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theory. And I can't play piano
to save my life. But as a

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vocalist, people may or may not
know this, but the trouble and bass

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cliffs are the same as on a
piano, and so it's you know,

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vocal music and piano music are they
are the same you read them the same

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way. And so a lot of
vocalists play piano because it helps you to

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learn music and compose and accompany yourself. But I cannot play piano to save

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my life, and it's a requirement
of every vocal degree. And I don't

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know. I was just frustrated and
not having fun anymore. So well,

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you know, I felt the same
way when I was in I was learning

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English literature, and I remember I'd
go in there and they would just literally

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drain the life blood out of everything
we were studying, and they wanted to

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to dissectic and and you know what, broadcast was the same way. You

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know, you'd go to the classroom
and it was just like, oh God,

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sorry digression. Is it true that
you auditioned once for American Idol?

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I did when I was like sixteen. Come on, yeah, you got

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to tell me that story in a
nutshell. Come It was a season two,

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so it was a brand new show, and Kelly Clarkson had just won

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the first season. Of course,
she was something of a hometown here.

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I also grew up in Texas.
I was from a different part of the

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state than she was. I think
she was from like Beaumont, or Burlington

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or I can't remember, but something
with a bee and I grew up in

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Plano, which is a suburb of
Dallas, but I definitely remember. It

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was while I was still studying music
in college, having to take not take

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time off. I mean, let's
be real, I was skipping class to

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drive down to I think it was
in Austin to do these different auditions,

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and I would I kept getting callbacks, which was really exciting, but also

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would be like, oh god,
after it's more school, so you know.

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I would audition in front of some
producers and then they would give me

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a slip that was like Okay,
come back and we want to see you

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again. And then eventually I worked
my way up the chain. It was

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like four or five different auditions and
finally I auditioned in front of the main

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people. Back then, it was
like Simon Cowell and Paula Abduel, And

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I don't remember saying before Simon Cowell
and Paula Abduel, no shit. Really,

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I was a child though, and
that's the thing. Like I was

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sixteen, I was I had a
zero confidence stage present all the things I

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learned from working in television for years
and years and years in my mid twenties.

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I didn't have any of that yet, so I was like, my

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voice was shaky, and all the
TV cameras scared the living piss out of

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me, And yeah, they didn't
advance. Maybe I was one step away

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from like I'm going to Hollywood,
you know it was. That was the

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last audition where if they had given
me the go ahead, I would have

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been like in the Crop of thirty. But they cut me during that audition,

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and I can see why. I
don't think I was a terrible singer,

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but I had zero stage personality.
I was just really timid and scared

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of all of these Can you imagine
how the trajectory of your life might have

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changed had you gone on. I'm
just saying yes and no. You know.

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The funny thing is, I think
in some ways I still ended up

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having a lot of similar experiences because
I ended up working in television. But

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also, you're right. As a
singer, I mean, look at Kelly

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Clarkson, she's like crazy famous.
Yeah, but there was also a lot

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of I think legal ownership rights kind
of struggles and frustrations for a lot of

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those early American Idol stars. I
think my season was the season that Oh

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gosh, what was his name?
It was Ruben Studdard and the Redhead kid

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Clay. Yeah, so it was
Clay Aiken. He sang that creepy song

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about being invisible and in your bedroom. I remember that was right, Yeah,

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put it that way, like if
if I had done well, maybe

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I mean the best case scenario is
I would be Clay right. Yeah,

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I see you once. You're like, hello Los Angeles. Who Yeah.

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I kind of think, okay,
it's weird time. I only remember being

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on Good Morning America, like with
a group of people next to Paula Abdul

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being like dub so I am here
as a science communicator. I'm gonna call

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you famous. You've been on a
lot. So I mean, let's say

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your mother's writing your resume. Can
you just pinball through some of the science

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communication experiences that you have. I
mean, give me your resume real quick.

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Oh gosh, I don't remember.
I would say probably my most recent

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big thing that I did was Brain
Games and that was a huge It was

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exciting, and then it ended sadly
because we got the first season. So

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Brain Games, anybody who had seen
it back in the day, hosted by

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Jason Silva. It was like a
completely different show, and they decided to

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reboot it on National Geographic and have
it hosted by Keegan Michael Key, and

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they brought me on as the like
the science voice of the show, so

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I was the correspondent. I filmed
for months all of these field packages leading

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up to the in studio portion of
the show where we had like celebrities and

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they did a bunch of games,
and so my role was really to host

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and be involved in the production of
all of these field packages and then throw

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to them with Keegan on stage and
sometimes with the celebrity guests as well,

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and it was so much fun.
We absolutely had a dream. You know,

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first season is always a little bit
complicated and you're solving a lot of

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problems and you're not really into a
rhythm. And then we got re upped

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for the second season with raises and
more episodes, and I was like,

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yeah, I'm set, and then
COVID God and so like it's horrible.

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I remember they kept pushing it back, like Okay, we're trying to get

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a handle on this with a live
audience and stuff. Don't worry, we're

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gonna We're gonna pushback filming a week. Okay, we're gonna push back filming

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a month. Okay, we're gonna
okay, they show's campfle Well. I

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mean, I remember I was hooked
on the early episodes of Brain Games,

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and I mostly came away with how
I so often can't trust my brain.

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I remember watching an episode on Memory
and I witness accounts, right, and

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they set up this hypothetical somebody you
know, mugs an actor mugs another actor,

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and people are asked for the details. They had on a red jacket.

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No, it was a white jacket. It was a blue jacket.

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He was tall, he was short, and I was like, oh my

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god. One of the most terrifying
things to me now is eyewitness testimony in

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a court of law kind of oh
yeah, it's completely unreliable. And back

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when they were doing those episodes that
again were hosted by Jason Silva, that

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had like a little bit of a
different format, I was also actively deep

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in my cycom career, so it
was not uncommon for me to come on

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and like guest host or do segments
of those old school episodes too, which

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is why I think they thought of
me for the reboot. So I did

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a few of those older Brain Games
episodes, the really really fun. I

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remember flying to New York and doing
stuff on the Coney Island boardwalk and it

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was a lot of like person on
the Street type interviews and it was a

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joy. Oh yeah, I mean
that was probably the last show I did,

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But like you mentioned, I did
Bill Ny Saves the World on Netflix.

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I did I think two seasons of
that. During COVID I worked.

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I mean, I had been working
for PBS for many, many years.

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That's where I've done most of the
kind of more heavy journalism work and won

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most of the awards that are incredible. Newsroom team has won so a few

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different Emmys and Golden Mic Awards and
LA Press Club Awards. Right now,

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I'm actually a full time intern.
So for people who I don't know,

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this might be boring, but if
you want to get a PhD or so

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i D. I'm working on my
PhD in clinical psychology in the United States,

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you have to. It's like required
by the APA, the American Psychological

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Association, that you do two thousand
plus or minus practicum hours predoctorally, so

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before you finish, and then your
final year of your PhD or so ID

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is a one year full time internship. So it's an additional two thousand hours

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full time, forty hours a week, and so that's why I'm in Florida

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right now. Okay, Well,
it's fun because I was looking at doctoral

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dissertation existential hermeneutic phenomenological investigation of the
psychological experience of electing to die with medical

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age. Jesus Christ care, I
mean, yeah, so all right,

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we're talking. If I was to
distill that down for the rest of us

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who aren't pursuing a PhD, is
this the psychology of taking control of death

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decisions? Does it relate to medical
aid and dying? I mean, spell

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it out using a few syllables for
me here, Yeah, so small words.

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If you look at the literature base
right now on medical aid and dying,

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right, which is the choice that
some people across the globe have because

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it's only legal in some jurisdictions,
but the choice to access medication that will

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hasten your death if you have been
diagnosed with the terminal illness and have a

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poor prognosis. So in the US
they're eleven jurisdictions, so ten states plus

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Washington, DC, where it's legally
saying to die with medical aid California is

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one of them, and that's where
I usually live. So I was really

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curious about this process because I work
in an end of life and cancer and

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existential issues from my clinical perspective,
So from a research perspective, I was

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like, Okay, medical aid and
dying is something that's really fascinating to me.

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It's also something that I have a
strong personal conviction about, so I

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want to look at the literature and
see where the literature is. And what

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I found was that most of the
writings, and it's getting better because more

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and more people are talking about it, but most of the academic literature,

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the published writings on this either come
from like Scandy countries where it's been legal

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for quite some time and they even
have legal euthanasia, which we don't have

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in the US, or Canadian writings
which also have euthanasia's legal there as well,

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and the ones that are US centric. The literature tends to be from

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the perspective of caretakers, so family
members or providers, you know, doctors,

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nurses, chaplains, what have you. Very few papers that are written

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from the perspective of the person themselves
that are you know, grappling with this

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decision to die with medical aid.
So I decided, you know, there's

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this big, obvious gap in the
literature. I want to interview people who

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are actively pursuing this path or grappling
with whether they want to pursue this path,

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and ask them about their experience.
Just what is it like, What

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are you struggling with? What has
come easy? Has what has been very

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difficult? How do you feel,
how do the people in your life feel,

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how do they think you feel?
You know, And I just go

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very deep with these individuals. And
it's a tough approach because the end as

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we call it, the number of
participants is very very low, of course,

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because it's a very small group of
people as it to begin with.

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And then if you want to talk
to them about something so heavy, you

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know, some of these people are
too sick to talk. Some of these

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people are like I just you know, obviously this is very personal. And

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so so far I've only gotten three
people that I've been able to do really

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big deep dives with. I'm looking
for two, or I'm hoping to get

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at least two more before I finish
the dissertation. It may not happen,

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and we may just have to say, okay, this is what it is.

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So it's a very different approach to
science than the classic quantitative approach,

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which is, let's collect a bunch
of data and look for trends in the

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data. This all those words phenomenological, hermoneutic, existential. What they're describing

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is a qualitative approach to data collection
where I'm going deep with only a few

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people. So I can't say this
is truth that applies to all. But

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what I can say is, here
are some really important, very humanistic details

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of what this is like for these
people. Back when my father was so

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near death, I became fascinated by
medical aid and dying. I read a

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book called Final Exit, and I
was talking about this sort of underground in

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a huge in my experience. All
of the objections to medical aid and dying

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death with dignity having some control over
your exit, although I can't think of

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an exception, all have been religious, right, you're playing God, even

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the ones that say it's a slippery
slope and we're going to have death panels

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and you know when you turn seventy, it's going to be like logans run

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and they're going to send you off
and that kind of thing, and I'm

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struck by that. And you know, there you are now in Florida.

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If you bring up hey, I'd
like people to have control over how they

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go out. The reactions you get
are what Well, Florida's is interesting because

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it's not legal here, and you
know, my research is tied to my

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my PhD program, which is back
in California. Florida is my internship and

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so but what's interesting is that,
you know, my internship is complex here.

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I work in a community facing psychology
clinic and I have half of my

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caseload is in a clinic that's a
gerontology clinic. So I do work with

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older adults here and then twenty five
percent is kids, twenty five percent is

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adults. And because of that,
I supervise a lot of trainees, I

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do a lot of didactics, and
I teach here. Like there's all these

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different oponents to the internship. It's
quite lovely and well rounded. But I've

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been able to give talks on this
topic right because it's an area that I'm

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slowly developing more expertise in and it's
been fascinating to see the discomfort or the

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pushback, or in some cases the
immediate like oh, why don't we do

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that? Look at how we treat
our pets. Why can't we treat grahamall

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that way? You know. So
it's been really interesting to see the perspective

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from a place outside of California,
where, don't get me wrong, there's

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still quite a bit of pushback and
a lot of what we call conscientious objection

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among providers, which is totally legal. They're allowed to conscientiously object. But

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I do think there's more of just
kind of a general I guess, philosophical

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or ideological acceptance in California, which
makes sense considering the political climate, and

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Florida's kind of the opposite of California
when it comes to the political claud I

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think there's a stigma. I just
did. I'm doing a feature on my

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second podcast that talks about an experiment
in the Netherlands, and there was a

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college campus that was trying to get
students to focus on life and death and

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making the most of the moments between
birth and death. And so one of

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the college chaplains actually dug a grave
and you can go and you can sign

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up to go lie in the grave
for like a half an hour just to

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look up at the sky. From
six feet under and reflect and it's supposed

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to help destigmatize because apparently the Netherlands
are much like the United States, they

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just don't talk about it when nobody
wants to talk about, you know,

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dying, in the process of dying, in the ritual of dying, and

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what are we going to do?
Has that been your experience? Do we

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have a phobia about death? And
what's so interesting about the Netherlands is that,

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like, yes, they are a
Western society, so culturally you do

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see a lot of congruency. Although
they are in some ways, like significantly

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more progressive than the United States politically
or ideologically, it's still a Western society,

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meaning that it's been like patriarchal,
right, like white male dominated,

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white supremacist society, like all of
these things that we think about. And

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I do see significant differences when I'm
looking into cultural diversity when it comes to

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death within indigenous cultures or more Eastern
cultures, their views of death can be

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wildly different. But I do agree
with sort of the Ernst Becker view,

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which is that we are a death
denying society and working on our mortality salience

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can also help us work on our
basically our psychological resilience are comfort and really

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get the most out of life.
People ask me all the time I work

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with people who are dying all the
time, and they're like, oh my

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god, it must be so depressed, Like, oh, I get how

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do you handle it? It must
be so hard, all this bycarious trauma,

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blah blah blah. And I don't
know. I don't feel that way.

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I just for me, working with
people who are dying is very life

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affirming and there's so much depth and
reflection and authenticity, and I live every

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day because I know that tomorrow might
not be guaranteed. I also want to

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point out, though, that what's
interesting is that the Netherlands also has some

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of the most progressive, permissive I
don't know how you want to put it,

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laws with regard to hastening death.
Not only is medical aid and dying,

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which is what we call self administered
medication to hasten death within you know,

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certain parameters. It's what people used
to call physician assisted suicide, but

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we now we don't use that term
anymore because suicide is ideologically very distinct from

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a medical aid and dying. But
the Netherlands also has euthanasia, which means

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that physicians can can administer the medication
as well. And we even here in

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the US, we're like, at
least legally, people are like, yeah,

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we're not doing that. So it
is interesting that they are in some

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ways very similar to the US in
terms of their relationship with death, but

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in other ways kind of farther ahead
in terms of how they treat their ailing

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and aging. I totally didn't mean
for this to become like a it's not

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a show about death. Well,
this is like where my head is at

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all the time. No, no, sorry, we probably be going hearing

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you talk about and because you know
it's been on my mind. I'm friends

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with David Warnock, who was diagnosed
with ALS three years years ago, and

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he runs a website called Dying out
Loud and he, you know, he

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left everything that he was doing to
go and rack up as many experiences as

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he could before the end his body
deteriorates, and you know he's on the

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clock, and you know he just
set out right, you know, when

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the time comes, I would like
to go with some dignity on my terms.

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And the expectation is and I will
get off of death here in just

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second. But the expectation is is
that the people who choose medical aid in

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dying or whatever are going to become
more stressed out and they're going to be

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like, it's going to make things
worse. But the truth is having that

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sense of control actually brought peace and
comforts and for the families as well.

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We actually find that there's kind of
less like there's it's a different kind of

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bereavement that happens after made death,
but we definitely find that there's that feeling

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of control and of being able to
as there's a lovely sociologist I think you

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pronounce her last name Buckbinder. It
might be Buke Binder. I'm not sure,

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but it's a book called she wrote
a book called scripting Death. And

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I love that phrase because that is
for so many people what it feels like

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they're able to script and choreograph the
end of their life, the same way

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that so many mothers attempt at least
to do that for their birth stories.

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And it's an interesting idea, this
maintaining control, having a lot of independence,

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volition. It can be for some
people quite dignified. And it's interesting

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that your friend, of course as
als or motor neuron disease. That's probably

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the second largest group that utilizes medical
aid in dying. The first, of

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course, is cancer because cancer just
the nature of the disease course lends itself

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to medical aid and dying quite well. You need a six month or less

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00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:51,240
prognosis. Basically, you need the
same requirements as to be able to go

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into hospice. And with cancer,
very often there's a slower decline and people

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can sort of plan in that way
and they still have capacity. And you

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see that to some extent with als, although it's more complicated because you have

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to self administer, so they have
to get the timing right where they still

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have some motor function to be able
to self administer. Sadly, the diagnoses

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that are the toughest with medical aid
and dying are the diagnoses that have a

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dementia component, because then you really
have to get the timing right, because

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if somebody doesn't have capacity, they're
no longer eligible. Man, there's a

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whole other show. Kara. I
mean you and I complicated, Well,

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00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:29,720
you and I could just I could
retitle the show and say, Kara gets

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morbid, let's talk to the Actually, I don't think it's morbid at all.

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I think these are necessary conversations.
All right, I'm gonna pinball back

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to some other science stuff. Let
me take a real short break back with

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Kara Santa Maria next. This show
comes out two days early and is totally

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00:22:52,759 --> 00:22:59,640
commercial free to my wonderful, lovely
supportive patrons. Thank you so much for

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00:22:59,799 --> 00:23:04,640
being a patron, or at least
considering becoming a patron patreon dot com slash

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00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:14,319
Seth Andrews talking here with science communicator
Kara Santa Maria Talk Nerdy, the name

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00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:18,119
of the podcast. I guess are
you a nerd? Yeah, I'm a

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00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:19,599
nerd. I love the word nerd. You know. For me, it's

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00:23:19,599 --> 00:23:23,799
all about like a re It's like
taking something that has historically been pejorative and

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00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:27,680
reauthoring it. You know, nerd
another word that I do that with a

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00:23:27,839 --> 00:23:32,200
slut. I think it's really important
that we sort of take the power back,

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00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:33,960
right, and that we make it
our own. But yeah, I

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think when it comes to being a
nerd, it's really about being passionate about

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00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:42,400
things that you really care about.
I think it's about prioritizing and finding joy

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00:23:42,519 --> 00:23:47,759
and things that maybe historically were things
that kids would be bullied for. Historically

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00:23:47,759 --> 00:23:51,680
were things that, you know,
we're not considered quote unquote cool. No,

343
00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:53,359
no, the nerds want Like when
I was in high school, I

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00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:57,039
don't know, geek nerd. I
guess I'm not sure what the distinction is,

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00:23:57,079 --> 00:24:00,000
I think, right, but now, like all of the athletes,

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00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:03,880
right, they were the popular ones
that got all the attention, and all

347
00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:07,319
of us geeks who were over and
you know, wearing our spot ears and

348
00:24:07,319 --> 00:24:11,640
and doing really weird geeky stuff.
Later on, we are the ones who

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00:24:11,759 --> 00:24:18,279
have sort of evolved. You know. I'm just saying the nerds and the

350
00:24:18,319 --> 00:24:21,079
geeks win. And I think for
me, it's funny because I look back

351
00:24:21,079 --> 00:24:22,920
to my actual you know, so
often we think about middle school and high

352
00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:26,119
school as sort of the time when
when these clicks and you know, like

353
00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:29,880
the mean girls era and all of
that. But I look back and it's

354
00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:33,200
like I was very much i don't
know, like nomadic. I was a

355
00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:36,640
bit of a diplomat, like I
was an athlete. I was a captain

356
00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:38,400
of my cheerleading squad in high school. I was also a singer, you

357
00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:42,279
know, I was huge into choir, which is very often considered quite nerdy.

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00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:45,400
But I was also very academically inclined, you know, as an all

359
00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:49,400
of the competitive things in the honor
roll, in an international baccalaureate and all

360
00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:52,160
of that. So you're at the
Science Fair, you know, one hundred

361
00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:55,319
percent at the Science Fair. Yeah. So I'm like, I wore all

362
00:24:55,319 --> 00:24:59,640
of those hats and celebrated in all
of the things that I loved, and

363
00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:00,759
so for me, it's like,
whatever, I don't want to go.

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00:25:00,799 --> 00:25:03,559
You're a nerd. You're not a
nerd because I don't like sci fi that

365
00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:07,279
much. You know, I like
some sci fi, like socially conscious sci

366
00:25:07,319 --> 00:25:10,920
fi, but unlike the guys on
the SDU who are like obsessed with sci

367
00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:14,519
fi and really into fantasy, I
do not like fantasy. Like I don't

368
00:25:14,559 --> 00:25:17,319
get half of their references. But
I'm like, I don't have to conform

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00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:21,119
to your version of nerd. Arya. So the Skeptics Guide co host start

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00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:23,839
talking Game of Thrones something you just
you're not there. You can't all of

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00:25:23,839 --> 00:25:27,160
it, Lord of the Rings,
Game of Thrones, Like, honestly,

372
00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:32,240
it's like Star Wars. Something else
seen Star Wars. But I'm not like

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00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:33,799
them about it. Yeah you say
that, but I just can't. It's

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00:25:33,839 --> 00:25:37,640
so hard for me if it's got
a dragon in it. I'm not that

375
00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:41,359
into it. Okay, it's just, Oh, I just lost half my

376
00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:45,559
audience right there. When it happens
every time you're hate mails too. She

377
00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:48,279
doesn't really give a shit at Kara
Santa Maria dot com. But here's the

378
00:25:48,319 --> 00:25:52,240
thing. The other half of your
audience are going fine. Someone said it

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00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:59,960
out. Okay, You've appeared on
so many shows. One caught my eye.

380
00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:03,480
You can not answer this question.
In fact, I can cut this

381
00:26:03,519 --> 00:26:07,680
out of the interview one. But
you were on Joe Rogan. Yeah,

382
00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:11,960
I think like three times. Joe. Actually he was my first guest on

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00:26:11,039 --> 00:26:17,759
Talk Nerdy. Joe Rogan makes me
crazy. We've heard the anti vax stuff

384
00:26:17,759 --> 00:26:21,960
and he's tossing softballs at quack doctor
Robert Malone. He was on the iver

385
00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:27,799
Mecton train. He's had Alex Johnson. And it's not that I would ever

386
00:26:27,839 --> 00:26:30,960
tell anybody who to have on the
show, because I won't let anybody tell

387
00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:33,359
me who I can have on mine. If I wanted to bring on somebody

388
00:26:33,759 --> 00:26:37,240
I want to challenge a white supremacist, I reserve the right to sit that

389
00:26:37,279 --> 00:26:41,160
person down and have that as long
as where there is light. There was

390
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:45,160
also heat. Right, let's let's
try to get through, cut through the

391
00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:48,359
bullshit and talk about what's real.
Yeah, can you tell me about Joe

392
00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:52,119
Rogan? I mean what I mean, I can try what motivated you to

393
00:26:52,839 --> 00:26:55,119
be there? And what was it? Like? Well, I mean,

394
00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:57,319
here's the thing, Like, we've
got to remember the context of the time,

395
00:26:57,559 --> 00:27:03,079
Like every one of my apparances on
Rogan happened in twenty fourteen or earlier

396
00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:08,079
that. Yeah, that was almost
a decade ago. And he was my

397
00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:14,920
first guest on Talk Nerdy. So
when I was working on a television show

398
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:19,359
called Take Part Live, my executive
producer was like wildly sexist and just it

399
00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:23,359
was a very dark time. It
was a daily live show, so it

400
00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:27,359
took up all of my waking moments. He was very gas lighty towards all

401
00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:30,519
the women on the show. And
you know, I was the host and

402
00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:36,680
a producer on the show, opposite
my co host Jacob SOBEROFSOS Me a woman

403
00:27:36,759 --> 00:27:40,200
and Jacob a man, and then
there were other participants on the show,

404
00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:42,440
but we were the anchors of the
show. And it was the flagship television

405
00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:48,200
show for brand new network Pivot,
which was the sort of brainchild of Participant

406
00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:52,480
Media, which is a pro social, kind of socially active film production company.

407
00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:56,839
Anyway, So they had lots of
cool shows, but also some duds,

408
00:27:56,880 --> 00:28:00,519
and it's it's since gone defunct.
But I'm really struggling on that show,

409
00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:03,880
fighting, you know, worried about
finding myself, working a lot in

410
00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:07,640
therapy, struggling with a lot of
negative self talk and self doubt. And

411
00:28:07,759 --> 00:28:11,680
Joe invited me on the show,
and you know, to talk about atheism,

412
00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:14,359
I think, or science. I'm
not sure, because he is a

413
00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:18,880
genuinely curious guy and back in the
day he was not like fully intellectual dark

414
00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:22,680
Web at all. And so I
remember something really lovely about that experiences.

415
00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:26,759
I was telling him about my difficulties
with this producer and with the network,

416
00:28:26,759 --> 00:28:30,519
and he was like, yeah,
you know, when I was doing Fear

417
00:28:30,559 --> 00:28:32,799
Factor, I struggled with a lot
of things, and now I don't really

418
00:28:32,839 --> 00:28:36,880
take shows unless I can have a
little bit more creative control. And I

419
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:40,160
know you're not necessarily in a position
to do that, but here's my recommendation,

420
00:28:40,279 --> 00:28:42,880
Like start a podcast, like do
it. You'll be your own producer,

421
00:28:44,359 --> 00:28:47,559
You pick the content, you choose
who goes on. It's your voice

422
00:28:47,559 --> 00:28:52,400
and nobody else's and nobody's going to
gaslight you or make you say or do

423
00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:53,920
anything you don't want to do.
And I was like, no, nobody

424
00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:57,480
will listen, nobody will come on. And he was like fans followers like

425
00:28:57,519 --> 00:29:02,839
will you listen to her show?
And thousands of people replied to me and

426
00:29:02,839 --> 00:29:04,200
We're like yeah. And so then
I was like maybe I should do this,

427
00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:07,359
and he was like, I'll be
your first guest. I was like,

428
00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:10,880
thanks, bro, and so like
he was actually really lovely back then,

429
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:15,279
and honestly, all of our conversations
were very pro science. They were

430
00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:18,440
very like I didn't feel like I
was talking to an anti Baxer. The

431
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:21,519
only thing at the time that I
was like, man, it's like you

432
00:29:21,519 --> 00:29:22,960
actually believe in Bigfoot, Like this
is kind of weird, you know.

433
00:29:23,039 --> 00:29:26,240
So there's a little bit of that, like skeptical. Oh, you know,

434
00:29:26,319 --> 00:29:30,119
granted twenty fourteen, a lot of
this had not come We didn't know

435
00:29:30,279 --> 00:29:33,880
like like Elon Musk, right,
I mean, you sort of knew the

436
00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:37,519
idea of Elon three years ago,
and then now we see him in you

437
00:29:37,559 --> 00:29:41,559
know, right there in the spotlight
and so much Morris come to light.

438
00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:45,640
So I'm not asking you to throw
Joe under the bus. Kara, I

439
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:48,599
don't know, I don't really know
him anymore. And like another person that

440
00:29:48,599 --> 00:29:52,599
I would put in that exact same
category is Dave Ruben. Dave Ruben and

441
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:56,519
I were friends. We were friends, we worked together on the Young Turks,

442
00:29:56,599 --> 00:30:00,279
and we were like we would have
dinner together and hang out and text

443
00:30:00,319 --> 00:30:07,000
each other. And then something happened
politically with a handful of people who just

444
00:30:07,319 --> 00:30:11,960
started to move and I think it
was this. It's this weird group of

445
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:18,400
like self professed progressives who then I
don't know, it's like they became very

446
00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:22,759
regressive in their approach. Yet they
would always call those of us who were

447
00:30:22,759 --> 00:30:26,880
like social justice oriented regret you know, this was the air of the SGW.

448
00:30:27,359 --> 00:30:33,599
Yeah, like I became this like
target because I don't know was quote

449
00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:37,400
woke, which again, like this
is a bad word now. So it's

450
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:41,319
sad to see and it really is
heartbreaking to me. I mean, I

451
00:30:41,359 --> 00:30:44,279
don't harbor any like anger towards any
of these people, and none of them

452
00:30:44,319 --> 00:30:47,839
have ever done anything cruel. I
don't think they've said anything cruel to me

453
00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:49,640
or about me. They may have
behind closed doors, but it's more just

454
00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:53,920
like, it's very sad to see
this riff that has happened and who's chosen

455
00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:59,640
to be on what I consider like
the wrong side of history. Talking here

456
00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:03,720
with science communicator Kara Santa Maria.
She has hosted the podcast Talk Nerdy.

457
00:31:03,759 --> 00:31:07,599
She's co host of The Skeptics Guide
to the Universe. Why is science so

458
00:31:07,799 --> 00:31:12,839
freaking political? I just don't get
it. If something, a piece of

459
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:15,920
science, a piece of data comes
forward that says this will help make us

460
00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:22,559
safer, it seems like the United
States immediately makes it a referendum on freedom.

461
00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:29,119
Somebody said that if they found out
that breathing oxygen was medicinal, people

462
00:31:29,119 --> 00:31:32,680
would hold their breath until they die. I don't know, Kara. Are

463
00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:36,200
you as frustrated as the rest of
us? One hundred percent? I'm incredibly

464
00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:41,559
frustrated. And I think I think
for me, and maybe I tend to

465
00:31:41,599 --> 00:31:45,599
philosophize things a little bit, and
maybe that's a protective mechanism for me.

466
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:49,039
I don't really know, but I
think one of the things that I struggle

467
00:31:49,079 --> 00:31:52,200
with is the argument and not saying
that you're making it, because I've made

468
00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:57,359
it as well, but the argument
that science is being politicized and that's the

469
00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:00,960
problem. But I think that science
is inherently political, and I think that

470
00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:07,680
politics is inherently human, and so
I don't think that the problem is that

471
00:32:07,839 --> 00:32:15,680
people are ideologically driven and they see
certain scientific choices or scientific outcomes as either

472
00:32:15,839 --> 00:32:20,599
in keeping with or in conflict with
their ideology. I think that has always

473
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:25,680
been the case. I think the
problem is really the deepening right wing or

474
00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:30,759
the I guess, the increase in
right wing sentiment in our country right now.

475
00:32:30,599 --> 00:32:37,720
That's the thing that worries me the
most, this sort of authoritarian movement

476
00:32:37,039 --> 00:32:45,200
which is deeply distrustful of government systems
and sadly which fine, Okay, you

477
00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:49,240
want to be like an anarchist,
you want to be somebody who like questions

478
00:32:49,279 --> 00:32:52,599
everything, like you know that like
not even a true skeptic, as a

479
00:32:52,599 --> 00:32:54,200
true skeptic right is going to look
at the evidence and go like, Okay,

480
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:58,319
I'm now going to inform my decisions, but more of a denialist like

481
00:32:58,519 --> 00:33:02,799
okay, I guess that's your purview, that's your choice. But this movement

482
00:33:02,839 --> 00:33:06,839
towards well, I don't trust anything
that, but I can put all of

483
00:33:06,839 --> 00:33:09,480
my trust in this one person who
tells me that they're going to save me

484
00:33:09,599 --> 00:33:15,759
from myself. I think it's fundamentally
problematic when it comes to evangelical or deeply

485
00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:22,400
entrenched religions. And I think it's
fundamentally problematic when we look at historical experiences

486
00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:29,160
of fascism, of genocide, of
even eugenics. It's not about tribalism per

487
00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:32,000
se. It's about putting all of
your eggs into the basket of a savior.

488
00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:37,279
And I think that's really what scares
me more than anything. I don't

489
00:33:37,319 --> 00:33:42,440
think it's because science is political.
Science is political, right. I mean

490
00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:45,400
people pull up and ask us about
you know, why do you talk politics?

491
00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:46,920
And I'm like, well, if
we're going to talk about our values,

492
00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:52,400
our values are political. But I
think the tie I'm making, I'm

493
00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:54,000
thinking of the seat belts. Right. They were introduced back in the mid

494
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:58,359
twentieth century. Oh, everybody needs
to buckle up because it will make you

495
00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:01,160
safer in your cars. And just
like we saw with the COVID vaccine,

496
00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:07,440
etc. There was a huge segment
of the population that wailed and moaned and

497
00:34:07,559 --> 00:34:10,159
complained. And you know, this
is it's an attack on my liberties to

498
00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:14,079
be able to drive without a seatbelt, you know, I'm going to show

499
00:34:14,119 --> 00:34:17,199
them kind of thing. I don't
know if it's this feels like a uniquely

500
00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:21,960
American thing. It does feel uniquely
American. I think to some extent,

501
00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:28,119
there are a lot of cultural components
here. You know, the deep insidious

502
00:34:28,199 --> 00:34:31,119
individualism, that rugged individualism, the
manifest destiny, you know, a lot

503
00:34:31,119 --> 00:34:37,480
of the core sort of colonial and
supremacist quote unquote values that our country was

504
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:42,199
founded on and that continue to permeate. I do think that they're showing that

505
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:45,920
the not the only dark side,
but one of the many dark sides in

506
00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:49,599
this experience. But I don't think
this is new, and I think it

507
00:34:49,679 --> 00:34:52,920
might be more obvious now, but
I don't think it's new. I mean,

508
00:34:52,960 --> 00:35:00,840
you've probably seen these archive images of
the Spanish flu and people anti maskers

509
00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:06,000
marching with signs, and the government
campaigns to try and get people to wear

510
00:35:06,079 --> 00:35:08,760
masks, and people being like,
it's my right not to wear a mask,

511
00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:14,480
And so I think that what happens
when you have such a deeply individual

512
00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:20,599
of society that's been coerced, I
don't know, that's been trained. Maybe

513
00:35:20,639 --> 00:35:23,800
that's a good word to believe that
no matter who you are and no matter

514
00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:30,800
where you come from you yourself,
can excel you yourself, which we know

515
00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:35,800
that's not true, right, We
know that there are certain predispositions like if

516
00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:37,000
you come from money, if you
are white, if you are male,

517
00:35:37,039 --> 00:35:40,199
if you are Protestant, whatever,
if you are ciss, if you are

518
00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:44,880
Headera, like you already have like
a massive leg up. And it's just

519
00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:46,880
it's undeniable. And I don't want
to argue with that anymore. Are you

520
00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:52,519
about that anymore with anybody? Because
the evidence is clear as day. But

521
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:57,079
I think that there's this rhetoric in
our country that's really insidious that no matter

522
00:35:57,119 --> 00:36:00,199
who you are, where you come
from, you can prevail. One day

523
00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:04,519
you will be a billionaire, one
day you will have power and prestige.

524
00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:14,239
And what comes from that deeply individualistic
socialization is a lack of community oriented,

525
00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:20,440
social justice oriented humanity. And the
truth is the problem here when somebody says

526
00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:22,039
I don't want to wear a mask, is not that they're like, my

527
00:36:22,159 --> 00:36:25,400
rights are being trampled on. That's
what they say because that's the rhetoric they've

528
00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:30,039
been fed. But the problem is
I care more about my freedom than about

529
00:36:30,119 --> 00:36:36,840
your safety. That's a deeper issue. It's a humanitarian issue, and where

530
00:36:37,039 --> 00:36:40,199
I do think that we have a
humanitarian crisis, especially in the West,

531
00:36:40,639 --> 00:36:45,280
because we don't teach from the time
that we're born collectivist values. I've come

532
00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:50,320
to the point in my life where
I think being a billionaire is immoral,

533
00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:55,880
Like how many thousands of millions does
one person need too? I think that

534
00:36:55,920 --> 00:37:00,360
there is a point wherein you should
have to cannot physically hold on to a

535
00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:02,760
certain amount of wealth, and you
have to give it away, you have

536
00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:07,360
to legally. Oh yeah, yeah, I see they hate mail on this

537
00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:08,360
one. Of course, people are
going to be so pissed, but I

538
00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:13,599
deeply believe, you know, we
pay our taxes, right, there are

539
00:37:13,679 --> 00:37:17,039
already structures in place for this.
But ultimately, sadly, all of the

540
00:37:17,079 --> 00:37:23,639
structures that are in place, they
promote a hoarding of wealth. And ultimately

541
00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:29,119
there's a point and this is like, this is a fundamental principle of economics,

542
00:37:29,119 --> 00:37:35,039
of statistics, of mathematics, where
there is a point after which the

543
00:37:35,119 --> 00:37:37,519
money that is being hoarded, the
wealth that is not being utilized for anything,

544
00:37:37,519 --> 00:37:43,239
but that is being stored in accounts, money making accounts, it makes

545
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:47,719
more money than it does good,
meaning that it doesn't have a use anymore

546
00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:52,239
except to make money, and it
breaks the system. Right, like when

547
00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:54,920
we're looking at a purely even a
las fair capitalist system, which I don't

548
00:37:54,960 --> 00:38:00,800
agree with by any stretch. I
believe in deep, deep government regulation,

549
00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:04,639
and I believe in a hybrid social
capitalist system. But even if you were,

550
00:38:04,679 --> 00:38:08,159
like a hardcore laz a fair capitalist, I don't understand why you're not

551
00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:14,199
angry about this either, because at
a certain threshold, the money starts to

552
00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:19,280
make money at an absorbitant rate and
it literally breaks the system. It no

553
00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:22,760
longer contributes to the fundamental ideals of
capitalism, which is, you know,

554
00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:29,760
free market choice, you know the
best product prevails. That's not what we're

555
00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:32,880
dealing with anymore at all. Yeah, I can do some pretty hardcore libertarian

556
00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:37,280
ideas. And you know, if
I say the word socialist here in a

557
00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:39,079
red state Oklahoma, I mean people
flip out. And of course I'm like,

558
00:38:39,079 --> 00:38:42,639
well, do you send your kids
to public school? Do you drive

559
00:38:42,679 --> 00:38:45,199
on highways? Do you use emergency
service? Right? If your house catches

560
00:38:45,199 --> 00:38:47,079
on fire, do you hope somebody's
going to put it out or do you

561
00:38:47,119 --> 00:38:52,159
want to pay someone to do that. I want to talk about religion when

562
00:38:52,199 --> 00:38:57,000
it comes to life, death,
the universe and everything with my special guest,

563
00:38:57,119 --> 00:39:07,920
Kea Santa Maria. We continue next
special thanks to my guest this week,

564
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:15,239
speaking with Kara Santa Maria. She
is host of the Talk Nerdy podcast

565
00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:21,079
and co host of The Skeptics Guide
to the Universe. Well, you mentioned

566
00:39:21,199 --> 00:39:24,760
authoritarianism so much at this I think
is rooted in fundamentalist Christianity, which I

567
00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:30,440
think is an authoritarian model to begin
with. People respond to the authority with

568
00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:36,000
a capital A. They are instructed
and coouraged to have blind faith to follow

569
00:39:36,119 --> 00:39:38,039
a shepherd, whether it's a god
or a or a I don't know,

570
00:39:38,119 --> 00:39:43,360
televangelist, local pastor counselor. I
mean they're primed. So when a savior

571
00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:46,440
figure comes along and I've got to
mention Trump, but whoever some sort of

572
00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:52,159
a yeah, it's right, and
they weaponize the name of God and they're

573
00:39:52,199 --> 00:39:54,960
like, I'm here and it's manifest
destiny, etc. There is something about

574
00:39:54,960 --> 00:40:00,400
this particular demographic that they're like,
oh, my savior figure has a ride

575
00:40:00,679 --> 00:40:02,280
and they're going to solve all my
problems, and so they can just sort

576
00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:06,400
of flip that switch and line up
lockstep. It's crazy. Yeah, And

577
00:40:06,679 --> 00:40:08,880
I don't even know if I would
say it's like it's like a particular demographic.

578
00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:12,199
Maybe obviously we can point to it, right, we can like do

579
00:40:12,239 --> 00:40:15,320
gallop polling and we can say these
people. But I wonder if that's actually

580
00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:21,079
fundamentally human, this way of being, and then that some people have kind

581
00:40:21,079 --> 00:40:23,320
of pushed past it. I don't
really know. But one thing that I

582
00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:27,480
do know because and I'm God,
I'm going to take it back to death.

583
00:40:27,519 --> 00:40:31,000
I'm so sorry. So I identify
as an existential psychologist. I can't

584
00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:36,280
technically call myself a psychologist for five
more months, but I practice existential psychology.

585
00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:38,920
And one of the people who I
read quite a bit and who has

586
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:45,119
been very influential in the way that
I practice psychology is a man named Irvin

587
00:40:45,199 --> 00:40:47,800
Yalem, who's sort of like the
American father, as it were, of

588
00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:52,840
existential psychology, who's actually psychiatrist at
Stanford, and he talks about how they're

589
00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:55,960
four fundamental givens of existence, like
all human beings, and this is not

590
00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:00,760
this is not new. He's borrowed
this from existential philosopher throughout different eras,

591
00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:05,599
but he basically distills it down to
the reason people seek psychotherapy. Right,

592
00:41:05,639 --> 00:41:10,880
this is a psychology model is because
of these four fundamental givens of human existence,

593
00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:16,880
and they are loneliness, meaninglessness,
the relationship between freedom and responsibility.

594
00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:21,960
And then the last one is fear
of death. And he does make some

595
00:41:22,159 --> 00:41:29,800
quite solid philosophical arguments for why and
how people cope with the fear of death,

596
00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:32,199
which is the most fundamental fear.
Right, we are all alive right

597
00:41:32,199 --> 00:41:37,679
now, and we will all perish, and that is like deeply existentially terrifying

598
00:41:37,679 --> 00:41:42,599
to a lot of people. And
so some people cope with that by believing

599
00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:46,159
in a personal savior, God is
going to save me from the suffering,

600
00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:50,679
or I will have immortal life,
or and I do believe that they are

601
00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:54,840
deep parallels between that and authoritarian political
figures. So I know it sounds like

602
00:41:54,880 --> 00:42:00,639
I'm oversimplifying a little bit, but
ultimately I think that the fear of mortality

603
00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:09,440
underlies the very human reactionary need to
be saved by somebody and if I can

604
00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:13,639
put all of my faith in one
person. And we've seen this historically just

605
00:42:13,679 --> 00:42:16,880
throughout the family unit. Right,
like all religions, not all, but

606
00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:22,719
like all Western religions have pushed for
a patriarchal family unit, and the man,

607
00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:24,760
the head of the household, is
the protector and the savior, and

608
00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:29,519
he's going to save the family from
harm. And you know, that's just

609
00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:32,000
a recapitulation. It's like God on
earth. And I think you see it

610
00:42:32,039 --> 00:42:37,960
throughout a lot of governmental structures as
well, and especially deeply authoritarian regimes.

611
00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:42,480
There's a reason they're almost always men, and they almost always have those similar

612
00:42:43,079 --> 00:42:49,000
qualities to them. I will save
you from this terrible experience here on earth.

613
00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:52,440
Don't worry. You know you will
prevail, you will be immortal,

614
00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:55,920
you will whatever. I can't help
us. See that parallel. I don't

615
00:42:55,960 --> 00:42:59,400
begrudge someone. You know, it's
funny. I'm an atheist activist, but

616
00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:02,039
I don't be d someone a private
religious belief. I get it. I

617
00:43:02,039 --> 00:43:07,719
mean, I understand the utility and
how we probably have evolved these coping mechanisms.

618
00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:12,280
Right. We sort of take the
crayon and draw the silver lining.

619
00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:16,559
We manufacture the happy ending. We
are meaning seekers, if not meaning makers,

620
00:43:16,559 --> 00:43:20,519
in so many ways. And so
if someone says there's an afterlife and

621
00:43:20,519 --> 00:43:22,920
I'd like to go there, or
I continue on in some way. Man,

622
00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:27,920
My problem is really with the people
who are trying to who are waging

623
00:43:28,079 --> 00:43:31,719
full assault on the rest of us. Right, You're probably line up with

624
00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:35,559
me on that, right. If
someone holds a personal belief and they're not

625
00:43:35,599 --> 00:43:38,840
going after vaccines and they're not trying
to wipe out LGBT people, etc.

626
00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:42,800
Knock yourself out right. Oh yeah, not just that. I mean,

627
00:43:42,840 --> 00:43:45,519
you know, I work when people
who are dying, like a lot of

628
00:43:45,559 --> 00:43:51,760
my patients have religious conviction, and
it's actually really helpful and meaningful. And

629
00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:54,719
I'm a constructivist thinker when it comes
to psychotherapy. I try to take the

630
00:43:54,719 --> 00:43:58,719
frame of my patient when I'm working
with them. I'm not trying to push

631
00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:00,960
my beliefs on them. You're not
standing over them in their final moments,

632
00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:04,639
going you know it's all bullshit,
right, yeah, because I would not

633
00:44:04,679 --> 00:44:07,320
be the humanistic thing. Oh not
at all. Yeah. The humanistic thing

634
00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:12,800
to do is to meet them where
they are and to adopt their frame and

635
00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:16,639
to help them find meaning and purpose
in these their final days weeks, months,

636
00:44:16,719 --> 00:44:21,800
years from their own personal perspective.
So I think I'm one hundred percent

637
00:44:22,039 --> 00:44:23,800
with you on that. And I
don't think I was always like that.

638
00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:28,039
I think I was quite firebrand when
I was like a teenager and I had

639
00:44:28,119 --> 00:44:30,119
just left the Mormon Church, and
I was like really angry and felt like

640
00:44:30,159 --> 00:44:34,559
I had been you know, like
it was child abuse. And I think

641
00:44:34,559 --> 00:44:37,679
that I've softened quite a bit over
the years. It doesn't mean I don't

642
00:44:37,679 --> 00:44:42,079
still kind of believe all the same
stuff. I just am like more empathic

643
00:44:42,119 --> 00:44:45,880
to other people's experience than I was
when I was fifteen. I get that.

644
00:44:45,000 --> 00:44:47,760
I mean, you're leading with compassion. I think you're looking for shared

645
00:44:47,840 --> 00:44:51,840
values. It's more about being a
human being first. Right, It's not

646
00:44:51,960 --> 00:44:53,480
enough to be right. I think
we need to be effective, and that's

647
00:44:53,519 --> 00:44:57,360
hard. I think in this sort
of you know, this data based,

648
00:44:57,400 --> 00:45:00,920
evidence based you know, look at
the Bible kind. Yeah, it's the

649
00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:02,679
biggest problem I have with the skeptic
community. And you know, I'm deep

650
00:45:02,719 --> 00:45:06,280
in the skeptic community. I'm one
of five on The Skeptics Guide to the

651
00:45:06,360 --> 00:45:09,400
Universe, which is arguably one of
the most popular skeptic podcasts. We attend

652
00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:15,000
skeptic conferences, but we also basically
have our own skeptic conferences and lots of

653
00:45:15,039 --> 00:45:17,440
far I mean not because of me, like I joined the show way after

654
00:45:17,480 --> 00:45:22,000
it was well established, but even
with some of my co hosts, and

655
00:45:22,079 --> 00:45:23,960
well all of my co hosts from
time to time, but definitely within the

656
00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:29,079
community itself, like there is head
bumping about this because I am not a

657
00:45:29,119 --> 00:45:34,440
logical positivist. I do not believe
that science is the one thing that is

658
00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:37,519
beyond reproach. I do not believe
that if everybody just converted to the Church

659
00:45:37,519 --> 00:45:42,519
of science that the world would necessarily
be a better place. I just don't

660
00:45:42,519 --> 00:45:45,360
think that's a very humanistic view.
And I think that it ignores, again,

661
00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:49,360
the thing we talked about earlier.
It ignores the fact that science,

662
00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:52,679
even the scientific method, is inherently
political and has been practiced, has been

663
00:45:52,760 --> 00:46:01,440
utilized for so long by colonialist supremacist
individuals to further colonialist supremacist agenda. Now,

664
00:46:01,599 --> 00:46:07,679
the method of science is beautiful,
but nothing happens in a vacuum.

665
00:46:07,760 --> 00:46:12,159
It happens because of people, And
there are a lot of harms that have

666
00:46:12,199 --> 00:46:14,360
been done in the name of science. Well, I know, I've seen

667
00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:16,119
the memes out there. They're like, you know, if religion went away

668
00:46:16,159 --> 00:46:20,880
tomorrow, it'd be kumbayah, right, we'd all be a John Lennon concert.

669
00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:22,679
And I'm just like, no,
no, no, And we have

670
00:46:22,719 --> 00:46:25,920
so many evolved tendencies. How tribalism
alone right now? How would you like

671
00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:30,840
it if, like if Richard Dawkins
became the head of the next movie.

672
00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:32,280
You know, it's like, no, thank you. Like, I don't

673
00:46:32,280 --> 00:46:37,599
think that there's anything inherently moral in
thinking scientifically. I think that the moral

674
00:46:37,639 --> 00:46:40,800
component is one that we have to
grapple with. I don't think there's anything

675
00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:46,320
inherently moral in thinking religiously either.
I think that that is our core philosophical

676
00:46:46,440 --> 00:46:52,360
challenge. It's our humanistic challenges is
to identify our moral stance and to live

677
00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:57,119
by values that matter to us.
But this weird kind of argument like between

678
00:46:57,199 --> 00:47:01,239
religion and science has always kind of
baffled me because it's missing the humanistic component

679
00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:06,599
altogether. How many cans of worms
can you open up on a single show,

680
00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:08,239
Karen, I know, because I
don't know. I'm like, I'm

681
00:47:08,400 --> 00:47:12,480
I'm an enemy of FUNDI religion,
And I do think that if we were

682
00:47:12,519 --> 00:47:15,280
to wipe them out tomorrow, the
world would just would there'd be It'd be

683
00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:19,840
a net positive for the species.
Interesting, But I also I also believe

684
00:47:20,239 --> 00:47:22,800
and maybe okay, fine, maybe
I'll give you that like, I would

685
00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:25,840
love to see no more like now, I said, FUNDI fundamentalist, authoritarian

686
00:47:25,840 --> 00:47:32,119
religions, authoritarian religions, deeply evangelical, pushing their anti LGBTQ, pro white,

687
00:47:32,119 --> 00:47:35,920
pro male, pro whatever, is
charing kids with hell that comes.

688
00:47:36,079 --> 00:47:38,800
Yeah, patriarchal, all that stuff. I agree. At the same time,

689
00:47:38,880 --> 00:47:43,559
I think that you know, the
person who kind of throws the first

690
00:47:43,639 --> 00:47:46,119
don't like, we have to be
careful to then look within the sort of

691
00:47:46,519 --> 00:47:52,840
scientific enterprise and be like, at
what when are we being fundamentalists? When

692
00:47:52,840 --> 00:47:58,079
are we sort of because I don't
think there's anything inherently fundamentalist about science,

693
00:47:58,079 --> 00:48:01,719
of course not. But I think
there are fundamentalist scientific thinker, scientific skeptics

694
00:48:01,760 --> 00:48:07,800
out there, and I think that
they are doing the same thing from the

695
00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:12,559
alternate perspective and not even realizing it. Oh yeah, I've seen dogmatic atheist.

696
00:48:12,599 --> 00:48:15,960
I've seen dogmatic fellow libs fellow you
know, because I'm a hard liberal

697
00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:20,000
anyway. Yeah, but I mean
we see there's a kind of almost a

698
00:48:20,039 --> 00:48:23,760
religious dogmatism where if you're only ninety
eight percent with us, you are two

699
00:48:23,760 --> 00:48:28,400
percent against us. Therefore, you
know, again back to tribes, we

700
00:48:28,559 --> 00:48:32,599
cast you out there's a kind of
expulsion. There's almost an original sin kind

701
00:48:32,639 --> 00:48:36,400
of a thing going on there where
I see it is like, the thing

702
00:48:36,400 --> 00:48:43,800
that really blows my mind is when
I see the contempt and the snobbery against

703
00:48:43,840 --> 00:48:50,559
indigenous cultures and their belief systems,
which are sometimes inherently supernatural, and even

704
00:48:50,599 --> 00:48:52,800
if you don't believe the same thing
they believe, very often I see this

705
00:48:52,840 --> 00:49:00,119
like colonialists like again, like male
white supremacists like scoffing of their like ludicrous

706
00:49:00,119 --> 00:49:05,400
play, and I'm like, how
you don't sound any different than those assholes

707
00:49:05,400 --> 00:49:07,960
on ancient aliens who are like must
have been aliens, because there's no way

708
00:49:07,960 --> 00:49:12,239
this like quote unquote primitive culture could
have come up with this. It's like

709
00:49:12,360 --> 00:49:17,119
so degrading and disgusting, this view
that like Western science as we see it

710
00:49:17,280 --> 00:49:24,239
now was this invention, and before
that everything was savagery. It perpetuates to

711
00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:29,320
this day, and it's heartbreaking when
I see, like honestly, friends and

712
00:49:29,440 --> 00:49:35,280
colleagues saying things without even realize they're
saying them that are deeply denigrating to Indigenous

713
00:49:35,360 --> 00:49:40,360
people. It hurts my heart.
Karrasanda Maria, Science Communicator, Is it

714
00:49:40,480 --> 00:49:44,280
still a man's world, and so
I mean, are you still walking into

715
00:49:44,280 --> 00:49:46,159
the room and it's man's plainers and
hey, they're a little lady. Let

716
00:49:46,239 --> 00:49:49,440
me show you how it's done kind
of thing. Yeah, I mean in

717
00:49:49,480 --> 00:49:52,760
some in some cases yes, and
in other cases no. But I think

718
00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:55,760
that it's you know, I've just
seen a couple of examples recently. I

719
00:49:55,840 --> 00:50:00,440
was watching a documentary. It was
this. Have you seen the John Leguizamo.

720
00:50:00,519 --> 00:50:06,719
I think it's on Netflix. He
does this like history of the Latin

721
00:50:06,719 --> 00:50:08,719
People's History. I can't remember what
it's called, but it's all about you

722
00:50:08,719 --> 00:50:12,360
know, these are the stories that
you never hear because you're always hearing stories

723
00:50:12,360 --> 00:50:15,960
of white men. And it's it's
quite lovely. It's it's I think it's

724
00:50:15,960 --> 00:50:17,360
like a one man Broadway show.
So it's kind of, you know,

725
00:50:17,440 --> 00:50:22,840
one part humor, one part drama
whatever. And I'm watching it, you

726
00:50:22,880 --> 00:50:25,519
know, at the recommendation of a
friend, and it's brilliant. I'm like,

727
00:50:25,519 --> 00:50:28,679
oh, yes, all of these
people who didn't make it into history

728
00:50:28,679 --> 00:50:31,239
books. And then I'm like,
literally every person he's talking about as a

729
00:50:31,239 --> 00:50:37,679
man, literally there's no female perspective
whatsoever in this conversation. And so it's

730
00:50:37,719 --> 00:50:45,920
that intersectional problem where male supremacy is
so entrenched and so fundamental we don't even

731
00:50:46,320 --> 00:50:52,519
notice it. Like I was getting
into an argument with a guy recently about

732
00:50:52,760 --> 00:50:58,960
femicide at about violence against women and
crimes that are perpetrated against women, and

733
00:50:59,119 --> 00:51:01,800
when you look at the number verse, I mean, they're astounding the number

734
00:51:01,840 --> 00:51:06,519
of women who are victimized at the
hands of men. And we don't call

735
00:51:06,559 --> 00:51:10,920
that a hate crime. It just
is a crime. It's so fundamental,

736
00:51:12,599 --> 00:51:17,800
it's so normative that we don't even
recognize it. And so until those things

737
00:51:17,840 --> 00:51:22,039
start to change, Yeah, it's
a man's world. What are the ratios

738
00:51:22,079 --> 00:51:24,719
like on your end? I mean, I know it's not fifty fifty?

739
00:51:24,800 --> 00:51:29,320
Are we? I mean are people
like you? You may not want to

740
00:51:29,320 --> 00:51:30,480
teach your on horn here, but
I mean are you helping to kick the

741
00:51:30,480 --> 00:51:35,599
doors open opportunities to you know,
what's that saying? If you see it,

742
00:51:35,719 --> 00:51:37,400
you can be it kind of thing? I mean, what's good?

743
00:51:37,480 --> 00:51:38,679
Yeah, I mean that's huge for
me. Right, I think from a

744
00:51:38,719 --> 00:51:43,480
psychon perspective, I've always been,
you know, working on representation. I

745
00:51:43,480 --> 00:51:46,400
think representation matters, and not just
for women or female presenting, right,

746
00:51:46,400 --> 00:51:50,719
because I'm not just saying cis women
here. I'm also including trans women and

747
00:51:50,800 --> 00:51:54,920
any non binary individuals who present somewhat
fem I think that that kind of representation

748
00:51:55,039 --> 00:51:59,440
is really really important. And in
the sciences, yes, obviously, in

749
00:51:59,440 --> 00:52:04,239
computer science and engineering and mathematics,
in astrophysics, cosmology, we're still seeing

750
00:52:04,239 --> 00:52:07,559
that the numbers aren't there. I
now work in psychology, which is a

751
00:52:07,559 --> 00:52:13,360
predominantly female, predominantly like women run
field. It's mostly women who seek psychological

752
00:52:13,400 --> 00:52:17,280
services, which is very problematic from
my perspective, and it's all also mostly

753
00:52:17,320 --> 00:52:21,719
women who are teaching these classes,
who are working as therapists. There are

754
00:52:21,719 --> 00:52:23,920
a lot of wonderful, beautiful men
within, and don't get me wrong,

755
00:52:23,960 --> 00:52:28,400
it's such an inclusive field that,
you know, this is where we're seeing

756
00:52:28,400 --> 00:52:31,920
a lot of incredible trans men and
trans women and non binary individuals who are

757
00:52:31,920 --> 00:52:36,719
really carrying the torch and trying to
kind of move the needle into a social

758
00:52:36,760 --> 00:52:43,159
justice oriented and inclusive and affirming type
of practice. So I think that I'm

759
00:52:43,159 --> 00:52:45,119
you know, I've gone both ways, right. I think I push against

760
00:52:45,280 --> 00:52:52,079
the flow and I try to yell
at the top of my lungs why representation

761
00:52:52,119 --> 00:52:53,760
matters, and at the same time, I'm a human being and I'm tired

762
00:52:54,519 --> 00:52:59,079
and I can't carry it on my
shoulders. And so I'm in a field

763
00:52:59,119 --> 00:53:02,039
that accepts me, and I'm in
a field where I feel like I'm seen

764
00:53:02,159 --> 00:53:06,719
and I'm heard, and I'm necessary
and I can help, you know,

765
00:53:06,800 --> 00:53:09,480
not just other women, because I
do help people of all different gender identities

766
00:53:09,480 --> 00:53:15,480
and expressions, but predominantly I do
mostly see women and girls, and that's

767
00:53:15,519 --> 00:53:20,400
just because of the nature of who
seeks psychiatric or psychological services. I like

768
00:53:20,880 --> 00:53:23,400
operating in a space where I feel
safe, and I think that we've got

769
00:53:23,400 --> 00:53:28,760
to make other spaces safe for individuals. But I don't blame anybody who doesn't

770
00:53:28,800 --> 00:53:31,559
want to be in an unsafe space. Sure, sure well if I may.

771
00:53:31,599 --> 00:53:34,880
And I'm not just blown and smoke. I think one of the reasons

772
00:53:34,880 --> 00:53:37,559
that you have kicked open so many
doors and that you are it's sort of

773
00:53:37,599 --> 00:53:40,639
sought after, is that you're just
in the excellence business. You're just damn

774
00:53:40,639 --> 00:53:45,079
good at what you do. As
much as I'd like to restrain you to

775
00:53:45,159 --> 00:53:49,360
your chair, gave another hour and
make you make it a two parter,

776
00:53:49,760 --> 00:53:53,000
real fast Kara Santa Maria, How
do people find your work. Is there

777
00:53:53,000 --> 00:53:57,360
a hub Yeah, I'd say,
well, I'm not the great, I'm

778
00:53:57,400 --> 00:54:00,280
not the best at hubbing. I
do have a website Atcarsenria dot com,

779
00:54:00,280 --> 00:54:04,480
and that's where you can find talk
Nerdy, and that's where you can find

780
00:54:04,480 --> 00:54:08,000
like a bio and some contact info
stuff. Also, I do work on

781
00:54:08,039 --> 00:54:12,039
the Skeptics Guide to the Universe,
which has its own website with all its

782
00:54:12,079 --> 00:54:15,360
own links. And then I'd say
that probably, well, historically it was

783
00:54:15,400 --> 00:54:16,639
Twitter, right, but what a
shit show? Like. I have no

784
00:54:16,719 --> 00:54:21,599
idea how much longer I'm even going
to be on Twitter, But as of

785
00:54:21,719 --> 00:54:24,559
right now, I'm still curating science
news from around the world, and I

786
00:54:24,639 --> 00:54:30,000
post upwards of like thirty five articles
a week that I have found interesting.

787
00:54:30,320 --> 00:54:32,960
So it's like a mini feed reader
that I sort of curate. If you're

788
00:54:32,960 --> 00:54:36,719
interested in that, just follow me
on Twitter. I don't know how much

789
00:54:36,760 --> 00:54:39,639
longer that will happen. I'm also
on Instagram, but Instagram for me,

790
00:54:39,920 --> 00:54:43,840
is a little bit more personal.
It's still a public page, but you're

791
00:54:43,840 --> 00:54:46,159
going to see more pictures of my
dog on Instagram and less cycom and for

792
00:54:46,199 --> 00:54:50,360
me, that's okay. I log
on to Twitter every day and there are

793
00:54:50,360 --> 00:54:52,800
two of me arguing, and I'm
like, all right, screw this place,

794
00:54:52,960 --> 00:54:55,079
this is crazy. I'm out of
here. And then the next thing

795
00:54:55,199 --> 00:54:59,639
is, well, I want to
make sure that content gets out. Maybe

796
00:54:59,679 --> 00:55:02,559
things will get better, maybe he'll
sell I mean, I don't know exactly.

797
00:55:02,800 --> 00:55:07,400
That was so great, and now
I'm getting that that thing that you're

798
00:55:07,440 --> 00:55:09,199
seeing with a lot of creators who've
been around for a long time of like,

799
00:55:09,480 --> 00:55:14,960
I'm going to lose my blue checkmark
soon if I don't like pay money

800
00:55:15,000 --> 00:55:19,800
to keep my verified status, and
they just like put NPR a label that

801
00:55:19,840 --> 00:55:22,079
they're state sponsored media. Like it's
getting bad. So I don't know how

802
00:55:22,119 --> 00:55:25,719
much longer I can engage. Obviously
I'm never going to give them a cent,

803
00:55:27,320 --> 00:55:30,719
but they're still making money off of
me because they're like reading my data

804
00:55:30,760 --> 00:55:31,960
all the time. So I've got
to I've got to figure that one out.

805
00:55:31,960 --> 00:55:36,159
All right. Well, you've stayed
a few minutes over for me,

806
00:55:36,159 --> 00:55:39,199
and you've been so gracious, Kara, Santa Maria, what a great conversation.

807
00:55:39,280 --> 00:55:43,039
You're just so easier to talk to. Thanks for everything you're doing,

808
00:55:43,039 --> 00:55:45,880
all the science education and just the
good stuff. We'll keep watching. Okay,

809
00:55:46,119 --> 00:55:51,800
thanks so much, follow their Thinking
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