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Last time I saw my special guest, it was in Los Angeles.
This was way before COVID. How many years ago, Kara, do you
remember seven years something? Like? I remember it because I like there were
a lot of photos that were taking. This was when we were on stage,
right, Yeah, we were doing some speaking event and I, you
know, I'm just actually a photograph I think on my website where it's you
me, Matt Delahunty, and I'm sitting next to you and here you are,
this scientist, and I'm like, just this dude. But I looked
credible because we were sitting next to me. I thought, oh yeah,
I don't because I'm wearing like a Rancid T shirt. Kara Santa Maria.
She is a science communicator. She hosts the Talk Nerdy podcast. You may
know her as well from this Skeptics Guide to the Universe podcast. She has
degrees in psychology, philosophy, biological science. She focuses heavily on neuro science.
She's still living in Los Angeles. Kara, I'm not actually well.
I am like, my house is in Los Angeles. My life is a
Los Angeles, but I'm in Florida for a one year internship, which is
the last year of my PhD program. So I've got five just under five
months left out here in Fort Lauderdale, Florida. I'm very sorry for your
loss. We're going to come back to Florida in just a second. You
may have seen Kara on I don't know, tons of shows National Geographic Channel,
and she's on the Netflix series Bill Nye Saved the World, and she's
talked to pretty much everybody. So I'm going through doing my due diligence.
I know everybody brings this up because it's on your freaking wiki page. You're
a singer, how did I not know this about you? Yeah, that's
probably that should be past ten flick in amaze. You were a singer?
You were when I first went to college. Actually, I studied vocal jazz
performance and then switch major's part way through and ended up doing psych and philosophy
in my undergrad Yeah. I loved singing. I was really competitive jazzinger in
high school, and like I said, I got into it at the university
level too. I went to a phenomenal music school called the University of North
Texas. It's like the first I think they offered the first PhD in jazz
studies like in the country. But what I found was that studying it academically
sucked a lot of the joy out of it for me. Isn't that the
way it often is? Right? Yeah? And so you know, I
wasn't enjoying. I like music theory, but I don't like that much music
theory. And I can't play piano to save my life. But as a
vocalist, people may or may not know this, but the trouble and bass
cliffs are the same as on a piano, and so it's you know,
vocal music and piano music are they are the same you read them the same
way. And so a lot of vocalists play piano because it helps you to
learn music and compose and accompany yourself. But I cannot play piano to save
my life, and it's a requirement of every vocal degree. And I don't
know. I was just frustrated and not having fun anymore. So well,
you know, I felt the same way when I was in I was learning
English literature, and I remember I'd go in there and they would just literally
drain the life blood out of everything we were studying, and they wanted to
to dissectic and and you know what, broadcast was the same way. You
know, you'd go to the classroom and it was just like, oh God,
sorry digression. Is it true that you auditioned once for American Idol?
I did when I was like sixteen. Come on, yeah, you got
to tell me that story in a nutshell. Come It was a season two,
so it was a brand new show, and Kelly Clarkson had just won
the first season. Of course, she was something of a hometown here.
I also grew up in Texas. I was from a different part of the
state than she was. I think she was from like Beaumont, or Burlington
or I can't remember, but something with a bee and I grew up in
Plano, which is a suburb of Dallas, but I definitely remember. It
was while I was still studying music in college, having to take not take
time off. I mean, let's be real, I was skipping class to
drive down to I think it was in Austin to do these different auditions,
and I would I kept getting callbacks, which was really exciting, but also
would be like, oh god, after it's more school, so you know.
I would audition in front of some producers and then they would give me
a slip that was like Okay, come back and we want to see you
again. And then eventually I worked my way up the chain. It was
like four or five different auditions and finally I auditioned in front of the main
people. Back then, it was like Simon Cowell and Paula Abduel, And
I don't remember saying before Simon Cowell and Paula Abduel, no shit. Really,
I was a child though, and that's the thing. Like I was
sixteen, I was I had a zero confidence stage present all the things I
learned from working in television for years and years and years in my mid twenties.
I didn't have any of that yet, so I was like, my
voice was shaky, and all the TV cameras scared the living piss out of
me, And yeah, they didn't advance. Maybe I was one step away
from like I'm going to Hollywood, you know it was. That was the
last audition where if they had given me the go ahead, I would have
been like in the Crop of thirty. But they cut me during that audition,
and I can see why. I don't think I was a terrible singer,
but I had zero stage personality. I was just really timid and scared
of all of these Can you imagine how the trajectory of your life might have
changed had you gone on. I'm just saying yes and no. You know.
The funny thing is, I think in some ways I still ended up
having a lot of similar experiences because I ended up working in television. But
also, you're right. As a singer, I mean, look at Kelly
Clarkson, she's like crazy famous. Yeah, but there was also a lot
of I think legal ownership rights kind of struggles and frustrations for a lot of
those early American Idol stars. I think my season was the season that Oh
gosh, what was his name? It was Ruben Studdard and the Redhead kid
Clay. Yeah, so it was Clay Aiken. He sang that creepy song
about being invisible and in your bedroom. I remember that was right, Yeah,
put it that way, like if if I had done well, maybe
I mean the best case scenario is I would be Clay right. Yeah,
I see you once. You're like, hello Los Angeles. Who Yeah.
I kind of think, okay, it's weird time. I only remember being
on Good Morning America, like with a group of people next to Paula Abdul
being like dub so I am here as a science communicator. I'm gonna call
you famous. You've been on a lot. So I mean, let's say
your mother's writing your resume. Can you just pinball through some of the science
communication experiences that you have. I mean, give me your resume real quick.
Oh gosh, I don't remember. I would say probably my most recent
big thing that I did was Brain Games and that was a huge It was
exciting, and then it ended sadly because we got the first season. So
Brain Games, anybody who had seen it back in the day, hosted by
Jason Silva. It was like a completely different show, and they decided to
reboot it on National Geographic and have it hosted by Keegan Michael Key, and
they brought me on as the like the science voice of the show, so
I was the correspondent. I filmed for months all of these field packages leading
up to the in studio portion of the show where we had like celebrities and
they did a bunch of games, and so my role was really to host
and be involved in the production of all of these field packages and then throw
to them with Keegan on stage and sometimes with the celebrity guests as well,
and it was so much fun. We absolutely had a dream. You know,
first season is always a little bit complicated and you're solving a lot of
problems and you're not really into a rhythm. And then we got re upped
for the second season with raises and more episodes, and I was like,
yeah, I'm set, and then COVID God and so like it's horrible.
I remember they kept pushing it back, like Okay, we're trying to get
a handle on this with a live audience and stuff. Don't worry, we're
gonna We're gonna pushback filming a week. Okay, we're gonna push back filming
a month. Okay, we're gonna okay, they show's campfle Well. I
mean, I remember I was hooked on the early episodes of Brain Games,
and I mostly came away with how I so often can't trust my brain.
I remember watching an episode on Memory and I witness accounts, right, and
they set up this hypothetical somebody you know, mugs an actor mugs another actor,
and people are asked for the details. They had on a red jacket.
No, it was a white jacket. It was a blue jacket.
He was tall, he was short, and I was like, oh my
god. One of the most terrifying things to me now is eyewitness testimony in
a court of law kind of oh yeah, it's completely unreliable. And back
when they were doing those episodes that again were hosted by Jason Silva, that
had like a little bit of a different format, I was also actively deep
in my cycom career, so it was not uncommon for me to come on
and like guest host or do segments of those old school episodes too, which
is why I think they thought of me for the reboot. So I did
a few of those older Brain Games episodes, the really really fun. I
remember flying to New York and doing stuff on the Coney Island boardwalk and it
was a lot of like person on the Street type interviews and it was a
joy. Oh yeah, I mean that was probably the last show I did,
But like you mentioned, I did Bill Ny Saves the World on Netflix.
I did I think two seasons of that. During COVID I worked.
I mean, I had been working for PBS for many, many years.
That's where I've done most of the kind of more heavy journalism work and won
most of the awards that are incredible. Newsroom team has won so a few
different Emmys and Golden Mic Awards and LA Press Club Awards. Right now,
I'm actually a full time intern. So for people who I don't know,
this might be boring, but if you want to get a PhD or so
i D. I'm working on my PhD in clinical psychology in the United States,
you have to. It's like required by the APA, the American Psychological
Association, that you do two thousand plus or minus practicum hours predoctorally, so
before you finish, and then your final year of your PhD or so ID
is a one year full time internship. So it's an additional two thousand hours
full time, forty hours a week, and so that's why I'm in Florida
right now. Okay, Well, it's fun because I was looking at doctoral
dissertation existential hermeneutic phenomenological investigation of the psychological experience of electing to die with medical
age. Jesus Christ care, I mean, yeah, so all right,
we're talking. If I was to distill that down for the rest of us
who aren't pursuing a PhD, is this the psychology of taking control of death
decisions? Does it relate to medical aid and dying? I mean, spell
it out using a few syllables for me here, Yeah, so small words.
If you look at the literature base right now on medical aid and dying,
right, which is the choice that some people across the globe have because
it's only legal in some jurisdictions, but the choice to access medication that will
hasten your death if you have been diagnosed with the terminal illness and have a
poor prognosis. So in the US they're eleven jurisdictions, so ten states plus
Washington, DC, where it's legally saying to die with medical aid California is
one of them, and that's where I usually live. So I was really
curious about this process because I work in an end of life and cancer and
existential issues from my clinical perspective, So from a research perspective, I was
like, Okay, medical aid and dying is something that's really fascinating to me.
It's also something that I have a strong personal conviction about, so I
want to look at the literature and see where the literature is. And what
I found was that most of the writings, and it's getting better because more
and more people are talking about it, but most of the academic literature,
the published writings on this either come from like Scandy countries where it's been legal
for quite some time and they even have legal euthanasia, which we don't have
in the US, or Canadian writings which also have euthanasia's legal there as well,
and the ones that are US centric. The literature tends to be from
the perspective of caretakers, so family members or providers, you know, doctors,
nurses, chaplains, what have you. Very few papers that are written
from the perspective of the person themselves that are you know, grappling with this
decision to die with medical aid. So I decided, you know, there's
this big, obvious gap in the literature. I want to interview people who
are actively pursuing this path or grappling with whether they want to pursue this path,
and ask them about their experience. Just what is it like, What
are you struggling with? What has come easy? Has what has been very
difficult? How do you feel, how do the people in your life feel,
how do they think you feel? You know, And I just go
very deep with these individuals. And it's a tough approach because the end as
we call it, the number of participants is very very low, of course,
because it's a very small group of people as it to begin with.
And then if you want to talk to them about something so heavy, you
know, some of these people are too sick to talk. Some of these
people are like I just you know, obviously this is very personal. And
so so far I've only gotten three people that I've been able to do really
big deep dives with. I'm looking for two, or I'm hoping to get
at least two more before I finish the dissertation. It may not happen,
and we may just have to say, okay, this is what it is.
So it's a very different approach to science than the classic quantitative approach,
which is, let's collect a bunch of data and look for trends in the
data. This all those words phenomenological, hermoneutic, existential. What they're describing
is a qualitative approach to data collection where I'm going deep with only a few
people. So I can't say this is truth that applies to all. But
what I can say is, here are some really important, very humanistic details
of what this is like for these people. Back when my father was so
near death, I became fascinated by medical aid and dying. I read a
book called Final Exit, and I was talking about this sort of underground in
a huge in my experience. All of the objections to medical aid and dying
death with dignity having some control over your exit, although I can't think of
an exception, all have been religious, right, you're playing God, even
the ones that say it's a slippery slope and we're going to have death panels
and you know when you turn seventy, it's going to be like logans run
and they're going to send you off and that kind of thing, and I'm
struck by that. And you know, there you are now in Florida.
If you bring up hey, I'd like people to have control over how they
go out. The reactions you get are what Well, Florida's is interesting because
it's not legal here, and you know, my research is tied to my
my PhD program, which is back in California. Florida is my internship and
so but what's interesting is that, you know, my internship is complex here.
I work in a community facing psychology clinic and I have half of my
caseload is in a clinic that's a gerontology clinic. So I do work with
older adults here and then twenty five percent is kids, twenty five percent is
adults. And because of that, I supervise a lot of trainees, I
do a lot of didactics, and I teach here. Like there's all these
different oponents to the internship. It's quite lovely and well rounded. But I've
been able to give talks on this topic right because it's an area that I'm
slowly developing more expertise in and it's been fascinating to see the discomfort or the
pushback, or in some cases the immediate like oh, why don't we do
that? Look at how we treat our pets. Why can't we treat grahamall
that way? You know. So it's been really interesting to see the perspective
from a place outside of California, where, don't get me wrong, there's
still quite a bit of pushback and a lot of what we call conscientious objection
among providers, which is totally legal. They're allowed to conscientiously object. But
I do think there's more of just kind of a general I guess, philosophical
or ideological acceptance in California, which makes sense considering the political climate, and
Florida's kind of the opposite of California when it comes to the political claud I
think there's a stigma. I just did. I'm doing a feature on my
second podcast that talks about an experiment in the Netherlands, and there was a
college campus that was trying to get students to focus on life and death and
making the most of the moments between birth and death. And so one of
the college chaplains actually dug a grave and you can go and you can sign
up to go lie in the grave for like a half an hour just to
look up at the sky. From six feet under and reflect and it's supposed
to help destigmatize because apparently the Netherlands are much like the United States, they
just don't talk about it when nobody wants to talk about, you know,
dying, in the process of dying, in the ritual of dying, and
what are we going to do? Has that been your experience? Do we
have a phobia about death? And what's so interesting about the Netherlands is that,
like, yes, they are a Western society, so culturally you do
see a lot of congruency. Although they are in some ways, like significantly
more progressive than the United States politically or ideologically, it's still a Western society,
meaning that it's been like patriarchal, right, like white male dominated,
white supremacist society, like all of these things that we think about. And
I do see significant differences when I'm looking into cultural diversity when it comes to
death within indigenous cultures or more Eastern cultures, their views of death can be
wildly different. But I do agree with sort of the Ernst Becker view,
which is that we are a death denying society and working on our mortality salience
can also help us work on our basically our psychological resilience are comfort and really
get the most out of life. People ask me all the time I work
with people who are dying all the time, and they're like, oh my
god, it must be so depressed, Like, oh, I get how
do you handle it? It must be so hard, all this bycarious trauma,
blah blah blah. And I don't know. I don't feel that way.
I just for me, working with people who are dying is very life
affirming and there's so much depth and reflection and authenticity, and I live every
day because I know that tomorrow might not be guaranteed. I also want to
point out, though, that what's interesting is that the Netherlands also has some
of the most progressive, permissive I don't know how you want to put it,
laws with regard to hastening death. Not only is medical aid and dying,
which is what we call self administered medication to hasten death within you know,
certain parameters. It's what people used to call physician assisted suicide, but
we now we don't use that term anymore because suicide is ideologically very distinct from
a medical aid and dying. But the Netherlands also has euthanasia, which means
that physicians can can administer the medication as well. And we even here in
the US, we're like, at least legally, people are like, yeah,
we're not doing that. So it is interesting that they are in some
ways very similar to the US in terms of their relationship with death, but
in other ways kind of farther ahead in terms of how they treat their ailing
and aging. I totally didn't mean for this to become like a it's not
a show about death. Well, this is like where my head is at
all the time. No, no, sorry, we probably be going hearing
you talk about and because you know it's been on my mind. I'm friends
with David Warnock, who was diagnosed with ALS three years years ago, and
he runs a website called Dying out Loud and he, you know, he
left everything that he was doing to go and rack up as many experiences as
he could before the end his body deteriorates, and you know he's on the
clock, and you know he just set out right, you know, when
the time comes, I would like to go with some dignity on my terms.
And the expectation is and I will get off of death here in just
second. But the expectation is is that the people who choose medical aid in
dying or whatever are going to become more stressed out and they're going to be
like, it's going to make things worse. But the truth is having that
sense of control actually brought peace and comforts and for the families as well.
We actually find that there's kind of less like there's it's a different kind of
bereavement that happens after made death, but we definitely find that there's that feeling
of control and of being able to as there's a lovely sociologist I think you
pronounce her last name Buckbinder. It might be Buke Binder. I'm not sure,
but it's a book called she wrote a book called scripting Death. And
I love that phrase because that is for so many people what it feels like
they're able to script and choreograph the end of their life, the same way
that so many mothers attempt at least to do that for their birth stories.
And it's an interesting idea, this maintaining control, having a lot of independence,
volition. It can be for some people quite dignified. And it's interesting
that your friend, of course as als or motor neuron disease. That's probably
the second largest group that utilizes medical aid in dying. The first, of
course, is cancer because cancer just the nature of the disease course lends itself
to medical aid and dying quite well. You need a six month or less
prognosis. Basically, you need the same requirements as to be able to go
into hospice. And with cancer, very often there's a slower decline and people
can sort of plan in that way and they still have capacity. And you
see that to some extent with als, although it's more complicated because you have
to self administer, so they have to get the timing right where they still
have some motor function to be able to self administer. Sadly, the diagnoses
that are the toughest with medical aid and dying are the diagnoses that have a
dementia component, because then you really have to get the timing right, because
if somebody doesn't have capacity, they're no longer eligible. Man, there's a
whole other show. Kara. I mean you and I complicated, Well,
you and I could just I could retitle the show and say, Kara gets
morbid, let's talk to the Actually, I don't think it's morbid at all.
I think these are necessary conversations. All right, I'm gonna pinball back
to some other science stuff. Let me take a real short break back with
Kara Santa Maria next. This show comes out two days early and is totally
commercial free to my wonderful, lovely supportive patrons. Thank you so much for
being a patron, or at least considering becoming a patron patreon dot com slash
Seth Andrews talking here with science communicator Kara Santa Maria Talk Nerdy, the name
of the podcast. I guess are you a nerd? Yeah, I'm a
nerd. I love the word nerd. You know. For me, it's
all about like a re It's like taking something that has historically been pejorative and
reauthoring it. You know, nerd another word that I do that with a
slut. I think it's really important that we sort of take the power back,
right, and that we make it our own. But yeah, I
think when it comes to being a nerd, it's really about being passionate about
things that you really care about. I think it's about prioritizing and finding joy
and things that maybe historically were things that kids would be bullied for. Historically
were things that, you know, we're not considered quote unquote cool. No,
no, the nerds want Like when I was in high school, I
don't know, geek nerd. I guess I'm not sure what the distinction is,
I think, right, but now, like all of the athletes,
right, they were the popular ones that got all the attention, and all
of us geeks who were over and you know, wearing our spot ears and
and doing really weird geeky stuff. Later on, we are the ones who
have sort of evolved. You know. I'm just saying the nerds and the
geeks win. And I think for me, it's funny because I look back
to my actual you know, so often we think about middle school and high
school as sort of the time when when these clicks and you know, like
the mean girls era and all of that. But I look back and it's
like I was very much i don't know, like nomadic. I was a
bit of a diplomat, like I was an athlete. I was a captain
of my cheerleading squad in high school. I was also a singer, you
know, I was huge into choir, which is very often considered quite nerdy.
But I was also very academically inclined, you know, as an all
of the competitive things in the honor roll, in an international baccalaureate and all
of that. So you're at the Science Fair, you know, one hundred
percent at the Science Fair. Yeah. So I'm like, I wore all
of those hats and celebrated in all of the things that I loved, and
so for me, it's like, whatever, I don't want to go.
You're a nerd. You're not a nerd because I don't like sci fi that
much. You know, I like some sci fi, like socially conscious sci
fi, but unlike the guys on the SDU who are like obsessed with sci
fi and really into fantasy, I do not like fantasy. Like I don't
get half of their references. But I'm like, I don't have to conform
to your version of nerd. Arya. So the Skeptics Guide co host start
talking Game of Thrones something you just you're not there. You can't all of
it, Lord of the Rings, Game of Thrones, Like, honestly,
it's like Star Wars. Something else seen Star Wars. But I'm not like
them about it. Yeah you say that, but I just can't. It's
so hard for me if it's got a dragon in it. I'm not that
into it. Okay, it's just, Oh, I just lost half my
audience right there. When it happens every time you're hate mails too. She
doesn't really give a shit at Kara Santa Maria dot com. But here's the
thing. The other half of your audience are going fine. Someone said it
out. Okay, You've appeared on so many shows. One caught my eye.
You can not answer this question. In fact, I can cut this
out of the interview one. But you were on Joe Rogan. Yeah,
I think like three times. Joe. Actually he was my first guest on
Talk Nerdy. Joe Rogan makes me crazy. We've heard the anti vax stuff
and he's tossing softballs at quack doctor Robert Malone. He was on the iver
Mecton train. He's had Alex Johnson. And it's not that I would ever
tell anybody who to have on the show, because I won't let anybody tell
me who I can have on mine. If I wanted to bring on somebody
I want to challenge a white supremacist, I reserve the right to sit that
person down and have that as long as where there is light. There was
also heat. Right, let's let's try to get through, cut through the
bullshit and talk about what's real. Yeah, can you tell me about Joe
Rogan? I mean what I mean, I can try what motivated you to
be there? And what was it? Like? Well, I mean,
here's the thing, Like, we've got to remember the context of the time,
Like every one of my apparances on Rogan happened in twenty fourteen or earlier
that. Yeah, that was almost a decade ago. And he was my
first guest on Talk Nerdy. So when I was working on a television show
called Take Part Live, my executive producer was like wildly sexist and just it
was a very dark time. It was a daily live show, so it
took up all of my waking moments. He was very gas lighty towards all
the women on the show. And you know, I was the host and
a producer on the show, opposite my co host Jacob SOBEROFSOS Me a woman
and Jacob a man, and then there were other participants on the show,
but we were the anchors of the show. And it was the flagship television
show for brand new network Pivot, which was the sort of brainchild of Participant
Media, which is a pro social, kind of socially active film production company.
Anyway, So they had lots of cool shows, but also some duds,
and it's it's since gone defunct. But I'm really struggling on that show,
fighting, you know, worried about finding myself, working a lot in
therapy, struggling with a lot of negative self talk and self doubt. And
Joe invited me on the show, and you know, to talk about atheism,
I think, or science. I'm not sure, because he is a
genuinely curious guy and back in the day he was not like fully intellectual dark
Web at all. And so I remember something really lovely about that experiences.
I was telling him about my difficulties with this producer and with the network,
and he was like, yeah, you know, when I was doing Fear
Factor, I struggled with a lot of things, and now I don't really
take shows unless I can have a little bit more creative control. And I
know you're not necessarily in a position to do that, but here's my recommendation,
Like start a podcast, like do it. You'll be your own producer,
You pick the content, you choose who goes on. It's your voice
and nobody else's and nobody's going to gaslight you or make you say or do
anything you don't want to do. And I was like, no, nobody
will listen, nobody will come on. And he was like fans followers like
will you listen to her show? And thousands of people replied to me and
We're like yeah. And so then I was like maybe I should do this,
and he was like, I'll be your first guest. I was like,
thanks, bro, and so like he was actually really lovely back then,
and honestly, all of our conversations were very pro science. They were
very like I didn't feel like I was talking to an anti Baxer. The
only thing at the time that I was like, man, it's like you
actually believe in Bigfoot, Like this is kind of weird, you know.
So there's a little bit of that, like skeptical. Oh, you know,
granted twenty fourteen, a lot of this had not come We didn't know
like like Elon Musk, right, I mean, you sort of knew the
idea of Elon three years ago, and then now we see him in you
know, right there in the spotlight and so much Morris come to light.
So I'm not asking you to throw Joe under the bus. Kara, I
don't know, I don't really know him anymore. And like another person that
I would put in that exact same category is Dave Ruben. Dave Ruben and
I were friends. We were friends, we worked together on the Young Turks,
and we were like we would have dinner together and hang out and text
each other. And then something happened politically with a handful of people who just
started to move and I think it was this. It's this weird group of
like self professed progressives who then I don't know, it's like they became very
regressive in their approach. Yet they would always call those of us who were
like social justice oriented regret you know, this was the air of the SGW.
Yeah, like I became this like target because I don't know was quote
woke, which again, like this is a bad word now. So it's
sad to see and it really is heartbreaking to me. I mean, I
don't harbor any like anger towards any of these people, and none of them
have ever done anything cruel. I don't think they've said anything cruel to me
or about me. They may have behind closed doors, but it's more just
like, it's very sad to see this riff that has happened and who's chosen
to be on what I consider like the wrong side of history. Talking here
with science communicator Kara Santa Maria. She has hosted the podcast Talk Nerdy.
She's co host of The Skeptics Guide to the Universe. Why is science so
freaking political? I just don't get it. If something, a piece of
science, a piece of data comes forward that says this will help make us
safer, it seems like the United States immediately makes it a referendum on freedom.
Somebody said that if they found out that breathing oxygen was medicinal, people
would hold their breath until they die. I don't know, Kara. Are
you as frustrated as the rest of us? One hundred percent? I'm incredibly
frustrated. And I think I think for me, and maybe I tend to
philosophize things a little bit, and maybe that's a protective mechanism for me.
I don't really know, but I think one of the things that I struggle
with is the argument and not saying that you're making it, because I've made
it as well, but the argument that science is being politicized and that's the
problem. But I think that science is inherently political, and I think that
politics is inherently human, and so I don't think that the problem is that
people are ideologically driven and they see certain scientific choices or scientific outcomes as either
in keeping with or in conflict with their ideology. I think that has always
been the case. I think the problem is really the deepening right wing or
the I guess, the increase in right wing sentiment in our country right now.
That's the thing that worries me the most, this sort of authoritarian movement
which is deeply distrustful of government systems and sadly which fine, Okay, you
want to be like an anarchist, you want to be somebody who like questions
everything, like you know that like not even a true skeptic, as a
true skeptic right is going to look at the evidence and go like, Okay,
I'm now going to inform my decisions, but more of a denialist like
okay, I guess that's your purview, that's your choice. But this movement
towards well, I don't trust anything that, but I can put all of
my trust in this one person who tells me that they're going to save me
from myself. I think it's fundamentally problematic when it comes to evangelical or deeply
entrenched religions. And I think it's fundamentally problematic when we look at historical experiences
of fascism, of genocide, of even eugenics. It's not about tribalism per
se. It's about putting all of your eggs into the basket of a savior.
And I think that's really what scares me more than anything. I don't
think it's because science is political. Science is political, right. I mean
people pull up and ask us about you know, why do you talk politics?
And I'm like, well, if we're going to talk about our values,
our values are political. But I think the tie I'm making, I'm
thinking of the seat belts. Right. They were introduced back in the mid
twentieth century. Oh, everybody needs to buckle up because it will make you
safer in your cars. And just like we saw with the COVID vaccine,
etc. There was a huge segment of the population that wailed and moaned and
complained. And you know, this is it's an attack on my liberties to
be able to drive without a seatbelt, you know, I'm going to show
them kind of thing. I don't know if it's this feels like a uniquely
American thing. It does feel uniquely American. I think to some extent,
there are a lot of cultural components here. You know, the deep insidious
individualism, that rugged individualism, the manifest destiny, you know, a lot
of the core sort of colonial and supremacist quote unquote values that our country was
founded on and that continue to permeate. I do think that they're showing that
the not the only dark side, but one of the many dark sides in
this experience. But I don't think this is new, and I think it
might be more obvious now, but I don't think it's new. I mean,
you've probably seen these archive images of the Spanish flu and people anti maskers
marching with signs, and the government campaigns to try and get people to wear
masks, and people being like, it's my right not to wear a mask,
And so I think that what happens when you have such a deeply individual
of society that's been coerced, I don't know, that's been trained. Maybe
that's a good word to believe that no matter who you are and no matter
where you come from you yourself, can excel you yourself, which we know
that's not true, right, We know that there are certain predispositions like if
you come from money, if you are white, if you are male,
if you are Protestant, whatever, if you are ciss, if you are
Headera, like you already have like a massive leg up. And it's just
it's undeniable. And I don't want to argue with that anymore. Are you
about that anymore with anybody? Because the evidence is clear as day. But
I think that there's this rhetoric in our country that's really insidious that no matter
who you are, where you come from, you can prevail. One day
you will be a billionaire, one day you will have power and prestige.
And what comes from that deeply individualistic socialization is a lack of community oriented,
social justice oriented humanity. And the truth is the problem here when somebody says
I don't want to wear a mask, is not that they're like, my
rights are being trampled on. That's what they say because that's the rhetoric they've
been fed. But the problem is I care more about my freedom than about
your safety. That's a deeper issue. It's a humanitarian issue, and where
I do think that we have a humanitarian crisis, especially in the West,
because we don't teach from the time that we're born collectivist values. I've come
to the point in my life where I think being a billionaire is immoral,
Like how many thousands of millions does one person need too? I think that
there is a point wherein you should have to cannot physically hold on to a
certain amount of wealth, and you have to give it away, you have
to legally. Oh yeah, yeah, I see they hate mail on this
one. Of course, people are going to be so pissed, but I
deeply believe, you know, we pay our taxes, right, there are
already structures in place for this. But ultimately, sadly, all of the
structures that are in place, they promote a hoarding of wealth. And ultimately
there's a point and this is like, this is a fundamental principle of economics,
of statistics, of mathematics, where there is a point after which the
money that is being hoarded, the wealth that is not being utilized for anything,
but that is being stored in accounts, money making accounts, it makes
more money than it does good, meaning that it doesn't have a use anymore
except to make money, and it breaks the system. Right, like when
we're looking at a purely even a las fair capitalist system, which I don't
agree with by any stretch. I believe in deep, deep government regulation,
and I believe in a hybrid social capitalist system. But even if you were,
like a hardcore laz a fair capitalist, I don't understand why you're not
angry about this either, because at a certain threshold, the money starts to
make money at an absorbitant rate and it literally breaks the system. It no
longer contributes to the fundamental ideals of capitalism, which is, you know,
free market choice, you know the best product prevails. That's not what we're
dealing with anymore at all. Yeah, I can do some pretty hardcore libertarian
ideas. And you know, if I say the word socialist here in a
red state Oklahoma, I mean people flip out. And of course I'm like,
well, do you send your kids to public school? Do you drive
on highways? Do you use emergency service? Right? If your house catches
on fire, do you hope somebody's going to put it out or do you
want to pay someone to do that. I want to talk about religion when
it comes to life, death, the universe and everything with my special guest,
Kea Santa Maria. We continue next special thanks to my guest this week,
speaking with Kara Santa Maria. She is host of the Talk Nerdy podcast
and co host of The Skeptics Guide to the Universe. Well, you mentioned
authoritarianism so much at this I think is rooted in fundamentalist Christianity, which I
think is an authoritarian model to begin with. People respond to the authority with
a capital A. They are instructed and coouraged to have blind faith to follow
a shepherd, whether it's a god or a or a I don't know,
televangelist, local pastor counselor. I mean they're primed. So when a savior
figure comes along and I've got to mention Trump, but whoever some sort of
a yeah, it's right, and they weaponize the name of God and they're
like, I'm here and it's manifest destiny, etc. There is something about
this particular demographic that they're like, oh, my savior figure has a ride
and they're going to solve all my problems, and so they can just sort
of flip that switch and line up lockstep. It's crazy. Yeah, And
I don't even know if I would say it's like it's like a particular demographic.
Maybe obviously we can point to it, right, we can like do
gallop polling and we can say these people. But I wonder if that's actually
fundamentally human, this way of being, and then that some people have kind
of pushed past it. I don't really know. But one thing that I
do know because and I'm God, I'm going to take it back to death.
I'm so sorry. So I identify as an existential psychologist. I can't
technically call myself a psychologist for five more months, but I practice existential psychology.
And one of the people who I read quite a bit and who has
been very influential in the way that I practice psychology is a man named Irvin
Yalem, who's sort of like the American father, as it were, of
existential psychology, who's actually psychiatrist at Stanford, and he talks about how they're
four fundamental givens of existence, like all human beings, and this is not
this is not new. He's borrowed this from existential philosopher throughout different eras,
but he basically distills it down to the reason people seek psychotherapy. Right,
this is a psychology model is because of these four fundamental givens of human existence,
and they are loneliness, meaninglessness, the relationship between freedom and responsibility.
And then the last one is fear of death. And he does make some
quite solid philosophical arguments for why and how people cope with the fear of death,
which is the most fundamental fear. Right, we are all alive right
now, and we will all perish, and that is like deeply existentially terrifying
to a lot of people. And so some people cope with that by believing
in a personal savior, God is going to save me from the suffering,
or I will have immortal life, or and I do believe that they are
deep parallels between that and authoritarian political figures. So I know it sounds like
I'm oversimplifying a little bit, but ultimately I think that the fear of mortality
underlies the very human reactionary need to be saved by somebody and if I can
put all of my faith in one person. And we've seen this historically just
throughout the family unit. Right, like all religions, not all, but
like all Western religions have pushed for a patriarchal family unit, and the man,
the head of the household, is the protector and the savior, and
he's going to save the family from harm. And you know, that's just
a recapitulation. It's like God on earth. And I think you see it
throughout a lot of governmental structures as well, and especially deeply authoritarian regimes.
There's a reason they're almost always men, and they almost always have those similar
qualities to them. I will save you from this terrible experience here on earth.
Don't worry. You know you will prevail, you will be immortal,
you will whatever. I can't help us. See that parallel. I don't
begrudge someone. You know, it's funny. I'm an atheist activist, but
I don't be d someone a private religious belief. I get it. I
mean, I understand the utility and how we probably have evolved these coping mechanisms.
Right. We sort of take the crayon and draw the silver lining.
We manufacture the happy ending. We are meaning seekers, if not meaning makers,
in so many ways. And so if someone says there's an afterlife and
I'd like to go there, or I continue on in some way. Man,
My problem is really with the people who are trying to who are waging
full assault on the rest of us. Right, You're probably line up with
me on that, right. If someone holds a personal belief and they're not
going after vaccines and they're not trying to wipe out LGBT people, etc.
Knock yourself out right. Oh yeah, not just that. I mean,
you know, I work when people who are dying, like a lot of
my patients have religious conviction, and it's actually really helpful and meaningful. And
I'm a constructivist thinker when it comes to psychotherapy. I try to take the
frame of my patient when I'm working with them. I'm not trying to push
my beliefs on them. You're not standing over them in their final moments,
going you know it's all bullshit, right, yeah, because I would not
be the humanistic thing. Oh not at all. Yeah. The humanistic thing
to do is to meet them where they are and to adopt their frame and
to help them find meaning and purpose in these their final days weeks, months,
years from their own personal perspective. So I think I'm one hundred percent
with you on that. And I don't think I was always like that.
I think I was quite firebrand when I was like a teenager and I had
just left the Mormon Church, and I was like really angry and felt like
I had been you know, like it was child abuse. And I think
that I've softened quite a bit over the years. It doesn't mean I don't
still kind of believe all the same stuff. I just am like more empathic
to other people's experience than I was when I was fifteen. I get that.
I mean, you're leading with compassion. I think you're looking for shared
values. It's more about being a human being first. Right, It's not
enough to be right. I think we need to be effective, and that's
hard. I think in this sort of you know, this data based,
evidence based you know, look at the Bible kind. Yeah, it's the
biggest problem I have with the skeptic community. And you know, I'm deep
in the skeptic community. I'm one of five on The Skeptics Guide to the
Universe, which is arguably one of the most popular skeptic podcasts. We attend
skeptic conferences, but we also basically have our own skeptic conferences and lots of
far I mean not because of me, like I joined the show way after
it was well established, but even with some of my co hosts, and
well all of my co hosts from time to time, but definitely within the
community itself, like there is head bumping about this because I am not a
logical positivist. I do not believe that science is the one thing that is
beyond reproach. I do not believe that if everybody just converted to the Church
of science that the world would necessarily be a better place. I just don't
think that's a very humanistic view. And I think that it ignores, again,
the thing we talked about earlier. It ignores the fact that science,
even the scientific method, is inherently political and has been practiced, has been
utilized for so long by colonialist supremacist individuals to further colonialist supremacist agenda. Now,
the method of science is beautiful, but nothing happens in a vacuum.
It happens because of people, And there are a lot of harms that have
been done in the name of science. Well, I know, I've seen
the memes out there. They're like, you know, if religion went away
tomorrow, it'd be kumbayah, right, we'd all be a John Lennon concert.
And I'm just like, no, no, no, And we have
so many evolved tendencies. How tribalism alone right now? How would you like
it if, like if Richard Dawkins became the head of the next movie.
You know, it's like, no, thank you. Like, I don't
think that there's anything inherently moral in thinking scientifically. I think that the moral
component is one that we have to grapple with. I don't think there's anything
inherently moral in thinking religiously either. I think that that is our core philosophical
challenge. It's our humanistic challenges is to identify our moral stance and to live
by values that matter to us. But this weird kind of argument like between
religion and science has always kind of baffled me because it's missing the humanistic component
altogether. How many cans of worms can you open up on a single show,
Karen, I know, because I don't know. I'm like, I'm
I'm an enemy of FUNDI religion, And I do think that if we were
to wipe them out tomorrow, the world would just would there'd be It'd be
a net positive for the species. Interesting, But I also I also believe
and maybe okay, fine, maybe I'll give you that like, I would
love to see no more like now, I said, FUNDI fundamentalist, authoritarian
religions, authoritarian religions, deeply evangelical, pushing their anti LGBTQ, pro white,
pro male, pro whatever, is charing kids with hell that comes.
Yeah, patriarchal, all that stuff. I agree. At the same time,
I think that you know, the person who kind of throws the first
don't like, we have to be careful to then look within the sort of
scientific enterprise and be like, at what when are we being fundamentalists? When
are we sort of because I don't think there's anything inherently fundamentalist about science,
of course not. But I think there are fundamentalist scientific thinker, scientific skeptics
out there, and I think that they are doing the same thing from the
alternate perspective and not even realizing it. Oh yeah, I've seen dogmatic atheist.
I've seen dogmatic fellow libs fellow you know, because I'm a hard liberal
anyway. Yeah, but I mean we see there's a kind of almost a
religious dogmatism where if you're only ninety eight percent with us, you are two
percent against us. Therefore, you know, again back to tribes, we
cast you out there's a kind of expulsion. There's almost an original sin kind
of a thing going on there where I see it is like, the thing
that really blows my mind is when I see the contempt and the snobbery against
indigenous cultures and their belief systems, which are sometimes inherently supernatural, and even
if you don't believe the same thing they believe, very often I see this
like colonialists like again, like male white supremacists like scoffing of their like ludicrous
play, and I'm like, how you don't sound any different than those assholes
on ancient aliens who are like must have been aliens, because there's no way
this like quote unquote primitive culture could have come up with this. It's like
so degrading and disgusting, this view that like Western science as we see it
now was this invention, and before that everything was savagery. It perpetuates to
this day, and it's heartbreaking when I see, like honestly, friends and
colleagues saying things without even realize they're saying them that are deeply denigrating to Indigenous
people. It hurts my heart. Karrasanda Maria, Science Communicator, Is it
still a man's world, and so I mean, are you still walking into
the room and it's man's plainers and hey, they're a little lady. Let
me show you how it's done kind of thing. Yeah, I mean in
some in some cases yes, and in other cases no. But I think
that it's you know, I've just seen a couple of examples recently. I
was watching a documentary. It was this. Have you seen the John Leguizamo.
I think it's on Netflix. He does this like history of the Latin
People's History. I can't remember what it's called, but it's all about you
know, these are the stories that you never hear because you're always hearing stories
of white men. And it's it's quite lovely. It's it's I think it's
like a one man Broadway show. So it's kind of, you know,
one part humor, one part drama whatever. And I'm watching it, you
know, at the recommendation of a friend, and it's brilliant. I'm like,
oh, yes, all of these people who didn't make it into history
books. And then I'm like, literally every person he's talking about as a
man, literally there's no female perspective whatsoever in this conversation. And so it's
that intersectional problem where male supremacy is so entrenched and so fundamental we don't even
notice it. Like I was getting into an argument with a guy recently about
femicide at about violence against women and crimes that are perpetrated against women, and
when you look at the number verse, I mean, they're astounding the number
of women who are victimized at the hands of men. And we don't call
that a hate crime. It just is a crime. It's so fundamental,
it's so normative that we don't even recognize it. And so until those things
start to change, Yeah, it's a man's world. What are the ratios
like on your end? I mean, I know it's not fifty fifty?
Are we? I mean are people like you? You may not want to
teach your on horn here, but I mean are you helping to kick the
doors open opportunities to you know, what's that saying? If you see it,
you can be it kind of thing? I mean, what's good?
Yeah, I mean that's huge for me. Right, I think from a
psychon perspective, I've always been, you know, working on representation. I
think representation matters, and not just for women or female presenting, right,
because I'm not just saying cis women here. I'm also including trans women and
any non binary individuals who present somewhat fem I think that that kind of representation
is really really important. And in the sciences, yes, obviously, in
computer science and engineering and mathematics, in astrophysics, cosmology, we're still seeing
that the numbers aren't there. I now work in psychology, which is a
predominantly female, predominantly like women run field. It's mostly women who seek psychological
services, which is very problematic from my perspective, and it's all also mostly
women who are teaching these classes, who are working as therapists. There are
a lot of wonderful, beautiful men within, and don't get me wrong,
it's such an inclusive field that, you know, this is where we're seeing
a lot of incredible trans men and trans women and non binary individuals who are
really carrying the torch and trying to kind of move the needle into a social
justice oriented and inclusive and affirming type of practice. So I think that I'm
you know, I've gone both ways, right. I think I push against
the flow and I try to yell at the top of my lungs why representation
matters, and at the same time, I'm a human being and I'm tired
and I can't carry it on my shoulders. And so I'm in a field
that accepts me, and I'm in a field where I feel like I'm seen
and I'm heard, and I'm necessary and I can help, you know,
not just other women, because I do help people of all different gender identities
and expressions, but predominantly I do mostly see women and girls, and that's
just because of the nature of who seeks psychiatric or psychological services. I like
operating in a space where I feel safe, and I think that we've got
to make other spaces safe for individuals. But I don't blame anybody who doesn't
want to be in an unsafe space. Sure, sure well if I may.
And I'm not just blown and smoke. I think one of the reasons
that you have kicked open so many doors and that you are it's sort of
sought after, is that you're just in the excellence business. You're just damn
good at what you do. As much as I'd like to restrain you to
your chair, gave another hour and make you make it a two parter,
real fast Kara Santa Maria, How do people find your work. Is there
a hub Yeah, I'd say, well, I'm not the great, I'm
not the best at hubbing. I do have a website Atcarsenria dot com,
and that's where you can find talk Nerdy, and that's where you can find
like a bio and some contact info stuff. Also, I do work on
the Skeptics Guide to the Universe, which has its own website with all its
own links. And then I'd say that probably, well, historically it was
Twitter, right, but what a shit show? Like. I have no
idea how much longer I'm even going to be on Twitter, But as of
right now, I'm still curating science news from around the world, and I
post upwards of like thirty five articles a week that I have found interesting.
So it's like a mini feed reader that I sort of curate. If you're
interested in that, just follow me on Twitter. I don't know how much
longer that will happen. I'm also on Instagram, but Instagram for me,
is a little bit more personal. It's still a public page, but you're
going to see more pictures of my dog on Instagram and less cycom and for
me, that's okay. I log on to Twitter every day and there are
two of me arguing, and I'm like, all right, screw this place,
this is crazy. I'm out of here. And then the next thing
is, well, I want to make sure that content gets out. Maybe
things will get better, maybe he'll sell I mean, I don't know exactly.
That was so great, and now I'm getting that that thing that you're
seeing with a lot of creators who've been around for a long time of like,
I'm going to lose my blue checkmark soon if I don't like pay money
to keep my verified status, and they just like put NPR a label that
they're state sponsored media. Like it's getting bad. So I don't know how
much longer I can engage. Obviously I'm never going to give them a cent,
but they're still making money off of me because they're like reading my data
all the time. So I've got to I've got to figure that one out.
All right. Well, you've stayed a few minutes over for me,
and you've been so gracious, Kara, Santa Maria, what a great conversation.
You're just so easier to talk to. Thanks for everything you're doing,
all the science education and just the good stuff. We'll keep watching. Okay,
thanks so much, follow their Thinking Atheist on Facebook and Twitter for a
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