This is a studio Both and production. If you'd like to support this show
and get ad free episodes for as little as two dollars a month, go
to Patreon dot com slash studio both And. It's Tuesday, April twenty six,
twenty sixteen, And I just received a call um from Kelly Cochrane two
fifty five pm. Okay, Hi, so Laura, Hi, can this
be on an unrecorded line? Oh Um? I don't know how to do
that exactly. You want me to go to a different phone. I would
put furthest to not being recorded. Okay. Why do you not want it
recorded? Yeah? Because I want to talk too, Okay, hold on
one second? All right, thank you. So I have Kelly on the
other line. She I haven't on hold because she wants to talk to me
in an unrecorded line because she has things she wants to tell me. What
do I do? I know? But if she's asking me if it's recorded
and I'm telling her, okay, I don't know if I could. All
right, Okay, bye, all right, Kelly, I'm on under recorded
line. I'm sorry. Kelly Cochrane is a killer, an accomplice, an
addict, a victim prone to blackouts, has perfect memory, is a mother,
is infertile, is a cannibal, is insane? Is a genius?
Is a liar? The compendium of Kelly Cochrane is an unnerving and limitless rabbit
hole. I like to think that I'm someone who's both a critical thinker and
responsibly decisive, but researching and investigating Kelly has made me feel anything but.
Either whether by crook or by hook, Kelly has even been able to manipulate
or manufacture what should be considered factual evidence. Both Kelly and her mother have
confirmed that Kelly was admitted to a psychiatric girl's home as a teenager. However,
that facility has twice been bought and sold, and the records from her
time there don't exist. Kelly can remember the exact dates and locations of crimes
that have actually occurred, crime she occasionally claims responsibility for, but there's no
actual evidence that can connect her to those crimes, and she manages to get
wrong the most critical details. Kelly can remember the dates she murdered people,
but not the names of the people she murdered. According to some documents,
Kelly had both a hysterectomy and later received fertility treatments. Almost every fact or
detail about Kelly includes a loophole. Kelly knows how to work the system.
She knows how to work people, she knows how to take advantage, and
she knows how to create organized chaos. So the only time that you and
Jason participated in a killing is okay, And the only time that and that
is the only time that the two of you helped each other clean up after
each other car, just with the car with that other case we talked about,
okay or anything like that. Did he suspect I'm sure did you ever
tell him you killed other people? You never told him of any of these
killings. What do you think I've never been in trouble? That doesn't make
sense. Sure it does. When you start something out, regardless of what
it is, for it to be effective, for you can do it,
you have to do it thoughtfully. It was planned out. What why are
you smiling and laughing? Hut, because I'm listening to the words you have
to be cautious. What do you mean You're listening to the words I'm saying
because you just caught yourself and thought, why am I telling him this?
Yeah, Kelly is a planner. It's deeply evident in the murder of Chris
Regan. It's as evident in her trip to Mattoon, Illinois and her little
dumpster run there. Her forethought and ability to plan are likely why she was
never looked at or caught for any other crimes besides the murder of Jason,
which was pretty well planned despite a very sloppy execution. But the forethought and
ability to plan demonstrate just how calculated and premeditated Kelly was. She was taking
steps to frame Jason for Chris Regan's murder months before the murder occurred. Essentially,
she was planning that frame job from the moment she started seeing Chris Regan.
So it's not a stretch to say that Kelly wasn't really dating Chris Regan.
She was targeting him. She was the stalker in her relationships. And
I don't think she simply killed the people she dated. I think she dated
people specifically to kill them. The vow may not have actually happened, but
it may have been a lie borne out of Kelly's intent or m O Kelly
once told. M William Phelps, journalist and author of Where Monsters Hide,
Sex, Murder and Madness in the Midwest, that she killed every man she
ever had sex with, and while in true Kelly fashion, this both lines
up with her stories to police and can also be proven false, she had
a month's long affair with a drug dealer who was still very much alive.
It begs the question, why why does Kelly have such a preoccupation with killing
men she's had sexual relationships with. Well, if Kelly is to be believed,
which is a very big if her childhood may just answer that question.
You answer your mom's question with a riddle. He destroyed himself. Now she's
to figure it out. Who wants to destroy himself? Right, she'll easily
figure it out. But you didn't say his name? Why not just say
his name? You won't give him the the You won't give him that because
you won't say his name. Is that one? I mean, I don't
know, I don't care, you don't. You don't have to say his
name of me either, But why why wouldn't he I'm just curious why you
wouldn't actually say his name to her, because then she blamed herself. She's
gonna blame herself anyway. Well, I mean, I can assure you that
she's gonna blame herself no matter what for a lot of things, but none
of it's her fault. No, no, and I you know that I'll
do my best to reassure her that it's not her fault or your dad's fault.
You know, your dad did become really emotional the other night as soon
as I walked in there. There's no doubt in this world that your father
loves you more than anything in the whole world, no doubt. I mean,
he just started sobbing within thirty seconds to me sitting down next to him.
Would you say to him? I didn't say anything to him, nothing
other than I was there and he was just overwhelmed by everything. Several times
throughout her various police interviews, Kelly alluded to being molested as a child and
teenager. She would eventually come right out and admit it. And it's a
tough admission because Kelly lies a lot, sometimes seemingly for no reason at all,
sometimes to create chaos, and sometimes to emotionally manipulate people. And if
her childhood molestation is in fact a lie, it wouldn't be the only time
she seemed to lie about a sexual assault. Have you had any contact with
the detective down there at all today. I shot him attack. I had
some problems last night. Okay. I had nothing to do with the case.
I was actually hoping he could help me out because I don't have anybody
that I really trust, and he wasn't able to help me. So I
had a good help from a different police station. Okay, I'm dealing with
a lot of shit. I've attacked at a gas station. You were attempted
a gas station and pretty much left for that. He doesn't believe me today
it has happened or last last night. Okay, But I went to the
hospital. They did their all their tests. They know that I wasn't lying,
but that's neither here nor there. Okay, Well are you okay here?
No, I honestly well, I will never be okay, and then
I'll started from I don't know, ten eleven years ago. So it's just
just part of I guess something I have to deal with and I will be
okay. But I mean, are you physically okay from whatever happened last night?
Are you? They did a test, I guess. I don't know
what it's called, but basically they checked me for us TVs. UM what
I'm scared of Um, there's a test they can do for I guess HIV,
which in all my years of study and I didn't know you could checks,
but I don't know. I'm sure things advanced, but I had to
start taking medicine for HIV just to be in the safe side because I guess,
like even doctors in their fields, if they poked their fingers, they
have to do this fork regiment. There's like two pills who take on with
narcissist. Yeah, I'm familiar with that. We had one of our officers
got stuck with a needle recently and had to go through that whole procedure.
So so, UM, are you saying you were sexually attacked or physically or
both? That's okay. So here's the thing. Kelly did, in fact,
check herself into the hospital on April eleventh of twenty sixteen, claiming that
she'd been attacked. According to hospital records made available to Ogden, Kelly arrived
at a Meryllville hospital just after eleven a m. On April eleventh. She
told her admitting nurse that she had neck pain, back pain, a headache,
and right knee pain following an assault by an unknown mail at an unknown
location. She stated that she didn't know what happened or where she was,
but that she believed she was at a restaurant in Meryllville at the time of
the attack. She then immediately described the attack, saying she was slammed up
against her car and possibly thrown to the ground. She wasn't sure if she
lost consciousness or not, and while she said she couldn't remember what happened,
she also told the nurse that she thought she had been put into the perpetrator's
car at some point during the attack. She went on to say that at
some point following the attack, she believes a perpetrator returned her to her car,
where she woke up on the ground next to it. Kelly claimed the
attack occurred at a round mid night. She wasn't sure if she had been
sexually assaulted, but said that she was pretty sure that she had been because
she had pained the vaginal area. When asked if she filed a police report,
Kelly told the nurse that she hadn't, but that she had called a
detective who she was working with on an unrelated matter. That would be Detective
Ogden. Kelly told the nurse that she had not taken any drugs or consumed
any alcohol prior to the attack. She also noted that she wasn't sure if
she wanted a rape kid or not. In typical Kelly fashion, her story
changed when she met with a second nurse less than an hour later. She
told that nurse that she had filed a police report. She also told this
nurse that she didn't want to take a pregnancy test because she couldn't pee and
knew she wasn't pregnant, which starkly contradicts what she told Laura Frizzo the very
next day. But like I said, I'm willing to come home. I
do want to feel safe about it, though. I want to believe that
I have a future, even though many days I don't want a future me.
When I found out I was pregnant, I was horrified and I was
told I can't take this polygraph and the detective had me take two pregnancy tests.
One of them showed up negative. Well, I've already had an ultrasound.
When I went to the hospital yesterday, they confirmed that I still am
pregnant. Okay, I don't want this. I don't want this now.
Is this Jason's baby? Yeah? Okay, I we would have conceived the
fifteenth through the seventeen, Okay, so about seven and a half week.
Okay, So I have full intentions I was going to go to day to
having an abortion. I just after everything last night, I I couldn't do
it right. But if that's the reason I can't do this polygraph, that's
not the only reason I'm considering an abortion. I can't do it right.
No, I mean definitely don't don't have an abortion. I mean, if
I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying you're saying that you were thinking about having
an abortion because you want to take the polygraph or just because it's just you
just don't want to have this baby. Both. Kelly was scheduled to take
a polygraph on April thirteenth, the day following that call and just two days
after her hospital visit following her alleged attack. When Kelly was eventually discharged from
the hospital two hours after arriving at the ear she was uncooperative at best,
and again her story changed. When the discharged nurse arrived. Kelly expressed disappointment
that she wasn't getting any drugs for her pain. She also felt it was
inappropriate of the hospital to leave a rape victim unattended for close to an hour.
The discharged nurse told Kelly that a urine sample would be needed to confirm
that she wasn't pregnant in order for them to discharge her with appropriate pain medication.
This enraged Kelly, who then refused to sign the discharge papers while also
demanding that she be sedated. The nurse reiterated that Kelly would need to have
her vitals taken, which she also refused, and would need a urine sample,
which she refused, before any pain meds could be given to her,
and that the hospital did not sedate people unless medically necessary. Kelly still refused
to sign her discharge papers and was essentially asked to leave. She would later
tell Ogden that the assault and the rape were two separate incidents, occurring late
at night on April tenth at a gas station and early in the morning hours
of the eleventh at a restaurant, respectively. Here's what we know for certain
about those two days and Kelly's statements therein. Kelly was not pregnant. Medical
records and family interviews confirmed that, as of July of two thousand and five,
Kelly was incapable of getting pregnant. Kelly started telling people in the days
following Jason's funeral, people who knew she couldn't get pregnant, that she was,
in fact pregnant. Kelly never filed a police report. She did call
Ogden in the early morning hours of April eleventh, but he didn't answer the
phone. Kelly would not specify to anyone which restaurant or gas station the alleged
attack or attacks took place at, so surveillance couldn't be pulled. Kelly told
investigators that she read that pregnant women can't take polygraph tests. Kelly told Frizzo
that the hospital ran several STD tests and put her on HIV therapies. Hospital
records confirmed that this never happened in all likelihood. Kelly went to the hospital
for three seasons to get out of taking her scheduled polygraph, to get sympathy,
and to get drugs. Kelly has a rich history of bouncing around between
ars and various doctors with varying complaints of pain in order to get prescription drugs.
Between June of two thousand and six and May of two thousand and nine,
Kelly saw and obtained prescription meds from at least nine different physicians, sometimes
visiting different doctors and ears on the same day. On average, she was
prescribed pain and anxiety meds every other week during those three years, vicodin,
percocet, ultraset, clanazepam, flexoral darvacet morphine, torridoal trazidone, codine,
naprosin, klonopin, catrolic, peroxytnes, galaxin, and the list just goes
on and on. She also managed to, on three occasions, get seizure
medication. Like I said, Kelly knows how to work people to get what
she wants from them. When Kelly was arrested, the DSM was found in
her front passenger seat. It had multiple pages with psychological disorders earmarked and their
symptoms highlighted. Kelly would later admit that she memorized the symptoms in order to
obtain prescriptions and present as mentally unfit should she ever be arrested. Kelly is
a planner, and her alleged assault on April tenth fit well within her M
and helped her get the two things she wanted, most drugs and a haul
pass for her polygraph. What makes Kelly's alleged childhood molestation so tough is that
My general rule is always believe survivors unless they give you a reason not to.
And while Kelly's alleged rape story is probably reason enough not to believe her,
Kelly's actions and lifestyle, particularly as a teenager when she alleges the molestation
was occurring, could be considered symptomatic of someone who endured repeated childhood molestation.
Unusual weight gain withdrawing from normal activities, falling grades, changes in self care,
self harming behavior, suicidal ideations, drinking or drug use. According to
the Rape Abuse and Incest National Network's website, those the prominent indicators that a
teenager is being molested. And while we don't know a ton about Kelly's childhood,
we do know multiple sources have indicated that Kelly exhibited every single one of
those symptoms. And as you'll recall, she was eventually admitted to a psychiatric
girl's home as a teenager, where, according to Kelly, she confessed she'd
been molested, killed a man, and hurt people who hurt her. And
while Kelly goes back and forth on the actual time she was there and that
facility's records no longer exist. I was able to track down an outstanding bill
indicating Kelly had been admitted in nineteen ninety nine, when she was either sixteen
or seventeen Kentucky. Yeah, I did that, Yes, Yeah? Why
would you do that? And make sure you're all right? I'm all right,
aren't I? You are? Did I hurt myself? Did I attempt
to kill myself? That way? You could have? I could do it
now, obviously you could have just a little scratch or two. What's the
point of it I needed to If I wasn't even hurt somebody, I hurt
myself. That helps? Yeah? And how long has it been that way
for you? Thirty three and a half years? Well, I mean I
heard you tell your mom that you remember things to the eighteen months old?
What do you remember? That doesn't matter, It doesn't make me who I
am? I know that To answer your To answer Steve's question, yeah,
I was a most and and changing. In all my time listening to Kelly's
interviews and reading about her, I've found that she likes to lead people.
She makes confessions about her life for her crimes, and then immediately explains what
those confessions or actions mean. She tells investigators that Jason abused her, but
she doesn't stop there. She always follows that with statements about how abused women
becomes submissive to their abusers and fear them, and are thus more likely to
comply when under duress. She memorizes the DSM and then tells doctors and investigators
what her symptoms are before telling them what disorders. Those symptoms are symptomatic of
every piece of information Kelly reveals. She uses to lead people into giving her
what she wants, whether it's drugs, an insanity plea, or aiding and
abetting Jason in the murder of Chris Regan under duress. Of course, she
doesn't do that with the molestation, though, in fact she gets cagy or
defensive when discussing it. If anything, she distances herself from it. Yes,
I was molested, but it didn't affect who I am. Of course
I can't help, but wonder if it's the exact opposite. Kelly likes to
make it clear that she's not like other female serial killers. Adamantly so,
and I try to make a point not to compare Keys or Kelly to any
other serial killers. Comparison and conflation are thieves of impartiality and creativity after all.
But the more I dig into Kelly, the harder it becomes to compare
her to another serial killer, specifically America's most notorious and well known female serial
killer, Eileen Warnos, shot and killed men she claimed were raping and abusing
her. She was molested as a child. She struggled with alcohol and drug
abuse. She began acting out as a teenager following her sexual abuse, which
slowly evolved into petty crime, assault, theft, and eventually seven known homicides
of men. So I reached out to doctor Joni Johnston via email, who
at this point was unaware that Kelly may have been molested as a child and
teenager. I was curious if, perhaps like Warnos, Kelly's childhood molestation had
manifested in her murders of male sexual partners. Hi, doctor Johnston, this
might be a reductive question slash conclusion. But if Kelly were molested by a
man as a child and teen, with that inform her preoccupation with slash m
of killing men she's had sexual relationships with, Joonie responded almost immediately. It
could certainly be part of the picture, but how big a piece would be
hard to say. We'd need to look at who, what the response was,
what the abuse entailed, etc. But remember how unfortunately prevalent child abuse
is. In twenty eighteen, for instance, seven hundred thousand children were allegedly
abused, Around forty nine thousand of them experienced sexual abuse, and fifteen percent
experienced multiple kinds of abuse. Now, I'm obviously not a psychologist, so
it's important that it's clear that this hypothesis has no real psychological base. But
in a discussion about who Kelly is and why Kelly is, childhood molestation is
a critical component. And we've seen lots of serial killers use proxies, Warnhos
and Kemper being the most notable examples. But those are questions of my eyes,
right, yeah, yeah, Now do you think those answers that you
really want to hear? No, No, they wouldn't be, So I
need to sugarcoat that a little bit of were you really blessed it by your
uncle? And who was it? Okay, No, he's not adapt living
alone without his daughter's miserable. Yeah, miserable. That's more satisfaction I'm getting.
How come you I thgured he describes and what I mean as crafty as
you are, you're revengel. No, you like revenge in some of it.
Nope. The uncle Kelly names as her abuser has no available record of
sexual abuse. He does have a pretty clear record of substance abuse, as
Kelly alluded to, and Kelly's parents' reaction to hearing his name was not one
of shock or dismay. And while they never come out and say it,
it seems to me that they believe her. And then there is some connective
tissue between Kelly's claim, my hypothesis, and Kelly's long list of victim There
are two places that come up in Kelly's stories over and over again, the
South Side of Chicago and Deep River Park. Kelly has claimed that she and
or Jason killed or disposed of three to five victims in Deep River Park.
Kelly also told investigators before opening up about her alleged molestation, that she had
been raped at a house near Deep River Park when she was sixteen or seventeen,
the exact time that she was admitted to the girl's home. Kelly's uncle
he lived across the street from Deep River Park. When you entertain the possibility
that Kelly's claim is legitimate. It reframes a lot of what we know about
Kelly cock Grin. According to Kelly, she's killed every man she's ever slept
with. She doesn't kill women. Kelly and Jason lived with a convicted pedophile.
Kelly has a bizarre and conflicting preoccupation with both protecting children and killing innocent
babies. Jason wrote about being a pedophile, but he also wrote about killing
pedophiles. When you look at psychopathy, what we certainly think is because there's
been a lot of brain imaging studies over the past five to ten years that
really do show some structural and functional differences in the brains at least of adults
who have been diagnosed with psychopathy, there clearly seems to be some genetic components
and some biological components to psychopathy. However, it appears that these genetic and
structural components to get activated by environment. So it's almost like this perfect storm
for a lot of people who are psychopaths. They have this genetic predisposition,
and if they are lucky enough to be in a very very nurturing home,
in a very supportive environment, then that predisposition may not express itself the reverse.
You might have somebody who has a less of a predisposition and that are
in a horrendous environment, and that they may become a psychopath. As an
adult, Kelly talked a lot about keeping trophies from her kills, and she
told Ogden multiple times that she would tell him where those trophies were if he
would let her spend time with them. Whether those trophies actually exist is up
for debate, But what I do know is that Kelly and Ogden took two
trips to Deep River Park to look for the remains of her alleged victims buried
there, and that she's been angling for a third trip to Deep River Park,
where she could spend time in the park across the street from the home
she claims her uncle molested her in. I don't have much respect for most
people. Most people irritate me. Most people don't think you're clueless of everything
that goes on around him. It's hard to have respect from people like that.
Please don't show us to my mother. But like even talking to my
mother, I mean, like the whole respect thing, it's I'm just saying,
yes, I'm thinking about how I were at this respect. Let's put
it in that respect it's a good mh. I give you a big,
long story, but you don't need it. I don't big us at all.
Boils down too. I'm behaving or out of respect because, as you
know me, where as people have told you about me, I don't listen
to others. I don't like to follow directions of others. I don't like
to be told to do. Yeah. I usually fight them every bit of
the way, right, Yeah, I haven't a little thinking Kentucky. I
really was bored. I had too much time to think, nothing to do
with my brain. I was going to do something I didn't. I've never
gotten to that point to worry. It's perfect. I would have had no
problem. Did you realize that? Right? I'm sure you're capable of film
whatever you want, whenever you want it. Well, anybody else, right,
yes, anybody's capable of anything. I know to put your mind to
it. I didn't harp me. Did you want? Feel feels? Did
you want not? I didn't hart me did you want? This episode was
written, produced, and researched by me your host, Josh Hallmark, with
research assistants from Becca Klein. Special thanks to doctor Joni Johnston for providing insight
on female psychopaths and serial killers. Research resources include rain dot org and Psychology
Today. Thank you to True Crime Bullshit's newest Patreon supporters, Nicky C.
A J D, Deborah H, Layla B, Victoria R, Andrew F.
And Stephanie A. This episode featured music by William Hellfire, Joseph Van
WISSEM, Kyle Preston, Stax, Lee Rosevier, Chris Zabriski, Radical Face
and chromatics too. And then I get the swans. Be running a bedroom,
be running running, swar run he run