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And. It's Tuesday, April twenty six,

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twenty sixteen, And I just received
a call um from Kelly Cochrane two

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fifty five pm. Okay, Hi, so Laura, Hi, can this

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be on an unrecorded line? Oh
Um? I don't know how to do

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that exactly. You want me to
go to a different phone. I would

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put furthest to not being recorded.
Okay. Why do you not want it

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recorded? Yeah? Because I want
to talk too, Okay, hold on

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one second? All right, thank
you. So I have Kelly on the

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other line. She I haven't on
hold because she wants to talk to me

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in an unrecorded line because she has
things she wants to tell me. What

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do I do? I know?
But if she's asking me if it's recorded

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and I'm telling her, okay,
I don't know if I could. All

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right, Okay, bye, all
right, Kelly, I'm on under recorded

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line. I'm sorry. Kelly Cochrane
is a killer, an accomplice, an

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addict, a victim prone to blackouts, has perfect memory, is a mother,

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is infertile, is a cannibal,
is insane? Is a genius?

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Is a liar? The compendium of
Kelly Cochrane is an unnerving and limitless rabbit

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hole. I like to think that
I'm someone who's both a critical thinker and

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responsibly decisive, but researching and investigating
Kelly has made me feel anything but.

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Either whether by crook or by hook, Kelly has even been able to manipulate

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or manufacture what should be considered factual
evidence. Both Kelly and her mother have

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confirmed that Kelly was admitted to a
psychiatric girl's home as a teenager. However,

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that facility has twice been bought and
sold, and the records from her

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time there don't exist. Kelly can
remember the exact dates and locations of crimes

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that have actually occurred, crime she
occasionally claims responsibility for, but there's no

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actual evidence that can connect her to
those crimes, and she manages to get

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wrong the most critical details. Kelly
can remember the dates she murdered people,

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but not the names of the people
she murdered. According to some documents,

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Kelly had both a hysterectomy and later
received fertility treatments. Almost every fact or

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detail about Kelly includes a loophole.
Kelly knows how to work the system.

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She knows how to work people,
she knows how to take advantage, and

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she knows how to create organized chaos. So the only time that you and

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Jason participated in a killing is okay, And the only time that and that

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is the only time that the two
of you helped each other clean up after

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each other car, just with the
car with that other case we talked about,

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okay or anything like that. Did
he suspect I'm sure did you ever

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tell him you killed other people?
You never told him of any of these

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killings. What do you think I've
never been in trouble? That doesn't make

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sense. Sure it does. When
you start something out, regardless of what

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it is, for it to be
effective, for you can do it,

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you have to do it thoughtfully.
It was planned out. What why are

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you smiling and laughing? Hut,
because I'm listening to the words you have

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to be cautious. What do you
mean You're listening to the words I'm saying

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because you just caught yourself and thought, why am I telling him this?

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Yeah, Kelly is a planner.
It's deeply evident in the murder of Chris

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Regan. It's as evident in her
trip to Mattoon, Illinois and her little

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dumpster run there. Her forethought and
ability to plan are likely why she was

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never looked at or caught for any
other crimes besides the murder of Jason,

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which was pretty well planned despite a
very sloppy execution. But the forethought and

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ability to plan demonstrate just how calculated
and premeditated Kelly was. She was taking

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steps to frame Jason for Chris Regan's
murder months before the murder occurred. Essentially,

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she was planning that frame job from
the moment she started seeing Chris Regan.

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So it's not a stretch to say
that Kelly wasn't really dating Chris Regan.

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She was targeting him. She was
the stalker in her relationships. And

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I don't think she simply killed the
people she dated. I think she dated

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people specifically to kill them. The
vow may not have actually happened, but

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it may have been a lie borne
out of Kelly's intent or m O Kelly

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once told. M William Phelps,
journalist and author of Where Monsters Hide,

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Sex, Murder and Madness in the
Midwest, that she killed every man she

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ever had sex with, and while
in true Kelly fashion, this both lines

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up with her stories to police and
can also be proven false, she had

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a month's long affair with a drug
dealer who was still very much alive.

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It begs the question, why why
does Kelly have such a preoccupation with killing

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men she's had sexual relationships with.
Well, if Kelly is to be believed,

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which is a very big if her
childhood may just answer that question.

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You answer your mom's question with a
riddle. He destroyed himself. Now she's

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to figure it out. Who wants
to destroy himself? Right, she'll easily

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figure it out. But you didn't
say his name? Why not just say

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his name? You won't give him
the the You won't give him that because

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you won't say his name. Is
that one? I mean, I don't

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know, I don't care, you
don't. You don't have to say his

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name of me either, But why
why wouldn't he I'm just curious why you

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wouldn't actually say his name to her, because then she blamed herself. She's

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gonna blame herself anyway. Well,
I mean, I can assure you that

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she's gonna blame herself no matter what
for a lot of things, but none

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of it's her fault. No,
no, and I you know that I'll

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do my best to reassure her that
it's not her fault or your dad's fault.

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You know, your dad did become
really emotional the other night as soon

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as I walked in there. There's
no doubt in this world that your father

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loves you more than anything in the
whole world, no doubt. I mean,

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he just started sobbing within thirty seconds
to me sitting down next to him.

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Would you say to him? I
didn't say anything to him, nothing

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other than I was there and he
was just overwhelmed by everything. Several times

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throughout her various police interviews, Kelly
alluded to being molested as a child and

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teenager. She would eventually come right
out and admit it. And it's a

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tough admission because Kelly lies a lot, sometimes seemingly for no reason at all,

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sometimes to create chaos, and sometimes
to emotionally manipulate people. And if

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her childhood molestation is in fact a
lie, it wouldn't be the only time

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she seemed to lie about a sexual
assault. Have you had any contact with

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the detective down there at all today. I shot him attack. I had

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some problems last night. Okay.
I had nothing to do with the case.

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I was actually hoping he could help
me out because I don't have anybody

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that I really trust, and he
wasn't able to help me. So I

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had a good help from a different
police station. Okay, I'm dealing with

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a lot of shit. I've attacked
at a gas station. You were attempted

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a gas station and pretty much left
for that. He doesn't believe me today

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it has happened or last last night. Okay, But I went to the

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hospital. They did their all their
tests. They know that I wasn't lying,

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but that's neither here nor there.
Okay, Well are you okay here?

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No, I honestly well, I
will never be okay, and then

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I'll started from I don't know,
ten eleven years ago. So it's just

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just part of I guess something I
have to deal with and I will be

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okay. But I mean, are
you physically okay from whatever happened last night?

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Are you? They did a test, I guess. I don't know

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what it's called, but basically they
checked me for us TVs. UM what

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I'm scared of Um, there's a
test they can do for I guess HIV,

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which in all my years of study
and I didn't know you could checks,

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but I don't know. I'm sure
things advanced, but I had to

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start taking medicine for HIV just to
be in the safe side because I guess,

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like even doctors in their fields,
if they poked their fingers, they

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have to do this fork regiment.
There's like two pills who take on with

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narcissist. Yeah, I'm familiar with
that. We had one of our officers

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got stuck with a needle recently and
had to go through that whole procedure.

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So so, UM, are you
saying you were sexually attacked or physically or

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both? That's okay. So here's
the thing. Kelly did, in fact,

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check herself into the hospital on April
eleventh of twenty sixteen, claiming that

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she'd been attacked. According to hospital
records made available to Ogden, Kelly arrived

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at a Meryllville hospital just after eleven
a m. On April eleventh. She

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told her admitting nurse that she had
neck pain, back pain, a headache,

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and right knee pain following an assault
by an unknown mail at an unknown

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location. She stated that she didn't
know what happened or where she was,

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but that she believed she was at
a restaurant in Meryllville at the time of

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the attack. She then immediately described
the attack, saying she was slammed up

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against her car and possibly thrown to
the ground. She wasn't sure if she

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lost consciousness or not, and while
she said she couldn't remember what happened,

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she also told the nurse that she
thought she had been put into the perpetrator's

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car at some point during the attack. She went on to say that at

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some point following the attack, she
believes a perpetrator returned her to her car,

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where she woke up on the ground
next to it. Kelly claimed the

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attack occurred at a round mid night. She wasn't sure if she had been

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sexually assaulted, but said that she
was pretty sure that she had been because

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she had pained the vaginal area.
When asked if she filed a police report,

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Kelly told the nurse that she hadn't, but that she had called a

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detective who she was working with on
an unrelated matter. That would be Detective

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Ogden. Kelly told the nurse that
she had not taken any drugs or consumed

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any alcohol prior to the attack.
She also noted that she wasn't sure if

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she wanted a rape kid or not. In typical Kelly fashion, her story

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changed when she met with a second
nurse less than an hour later. She

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told that nurse that she had filed
a police report. She also told this

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nurse that she didn't want to take
a pregnancy test because she couldn't pee and

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knew she wasn't pregnant, which starkly
contradicts what she told Laura Frizzo the very

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next day. But like I said, I'm willing to come home. I

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do want to feel safe about it, though. I want to believe that

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I have a future, even though
many days I don't want a future me.

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When I found out I was pregnant, I was horrified and I was

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told I can't take this polygraph and
the detective had me take two pregnancy tests.

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One of them showed up negative.
Well, I've already had an ultrasound.

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When I went to the hospital yesterday, they confirmed that I still am

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pregnant. Okay, I don't want
this. I don't want this now.

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Is this Jason's baby? Yeah?
Okay, I we would have conceived the

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fifteenth through the seventeen, Okay,
so about seven and a half week.

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Okay, So I have full intentions
I was going to go to day to

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having an abortion. I just after
everything last night, I I couldn't do

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it right. But if that's the
reason I can't do this polygraph, that's

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not the only reason I'm considering an
abortion. I can't do it right.

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No, I mean definitely don't don't
have an abortion. I mean, if

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I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying
you're saying that you were thinking about having

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an abortion because you want to take
the polygraph or just because it's just you

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just don't want to have this baby. Both. Kelly was scheduled to take

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a polygraph on April thirteenth, the
day following that call and just two days

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after her hospital visit following her alleged
attack. When Kelly was eventually discharged from

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the hospital two hours after arriving at
the ear she was uncooperative at best,

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and again her story changed. When
the discharged nurse arrived. Kelly expressed disappointment

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that she wasn't getting any drugs for
her pain. She also felt it was

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inappropriate of the hospital to leave a
rape victim unattended for close to an hour.

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The discharged nurse told Kelly that a
urine sample would be needed to confirm

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that she wasn't pregnant in order for
them to discharge her with appropriate pain medication.

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This enraged Kelly, who then refused
to sign the discharge papers while also

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demanding that she be sedated. The
nurse reiterated that Kelly would need to have

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her vitals taken, which she also
refused, and would need a urine sample,

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which she refused, before any pain
meds could be given to her,

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and that the hospital did not sedate
people unless medically necessary. Kelly still refused

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to sign her discharge papers and was
essentially asked to leave. She would later

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tell Ogden that the assault and the
rape were two separate incidents, occurring late

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at night on April tenth at a
gas station and early in the morning hours

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of the eleventh at a restaurant,
respectively. Here's what we know for certain

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about those two days and Kelly's statements
therein. Kelly was not pregnant. Medical

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records and family interviews confirmed that,
as of July of two thousand and five,

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Kelly was incapable of getting pregnant.
Kelly started telling people in the days

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following Jason's funeral, people who knew
she couldn't get pregnant, that she was,

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in fact pregnant. Kelly never filed
a police report. She did call

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Ogden in the early morning hours of
April eleventh, but he didn't answer the

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phone. Kelly would not specify to
anyone which restaurant or gas station the alleged

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attack or attacks took place at,
so surveillance couldn't be pulled. Kelly told

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investigators that she read that pregnant women
can't take polygraph tests. Kelly told Frizzo

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that the hospital ran several STD tests
and put her on HIV therapies. Hospital

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records confirmed that this never happened in
all likelihood. Kelly went to the hospital

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for three seasons to get out of
taking her scheduled polygraph, to get sympathy,

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and to get drugs. Kelly has
a rich history of bouncing around between

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ars and various doctors with varying complaints
of pain in order to get prescription drugs.

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Between June of two thousand and six
and May of two thousand and nine,

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Kelly saw and obtained prescription meds from
at least nine different physicians, sometimes

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visiting different doctors and ears on the
same day. On average, she was

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prescribed pain and anxiety meds every other
week during those three years, vicodin,

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percocet, ultraset, clanazepam, flexoral
darvacet morphine, torridoal trazidone, codine,

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naprosin, klonopin, catrolic, peroxytnes, galaxin, and the list just goes

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on and on. She also managed
to, on three occasions, get seizure

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medication. Like I said, Kelly
knows how to work people to get what

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she wants from them. When Kelly
was arrested, the DSM was found in

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her front passenger seat. It had
multiple pages with psychological disorders earmarked and their

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00:20:26.200 --> 00:20:33.200
symptoms highlighted. Kelly would later admit
that she memorized the symptoms in order to

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obtain prescriptions and present as mentally unfit
should she ever be arrested. Kelly is

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a planner, and her alleged assault
on April tenth fit well within her M

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and helped her get the two things
she wanted, most drugs and a haul

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pass for her polygraph. What makes
Kelly's alleged childhood molestation so tough is that

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My general rule is always believe survivors
unless they give you a reason not to.

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And while Kelly's alleged rape story is
probably reason enough not to believe her,

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Kelly's actions and lifestyle, particularly as
a teenager when she alleges the molestation

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was occurring, could be considered symptomatic
of someone who endured repeated childhood molestation.

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Unusual weight gain withdrawing from normal activities, falling grades, changes in self care,

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self harming behavior, suicidal ideations,
drinking or drug use. According to

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the Rape Abuse and Incest National Network's
website, those the prominent indicators that a

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teenager is being molested. And while
we don't know a ton about Kelly's childhood,

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we do know multiple sources have indicated
that Kelly exhibited every single one of

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those symptoms. And as you'll recall, she was eventually admitted to a psychiatric

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girl's home as a teenager, where, according to Kelly, she confessed she'd

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been molested, killed a man,
and hurt people who hurt her. And

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while Kelly goes back and forth on
the actual time she was there and that

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facility's records no longer exist. I
was able to track down an outstanding bill

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indicating Kelly had been admitted in nineteen
ninety nine, when she was either sixteen

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or seventeen Kentucky. Yeah, I
did that, Yes, Yeah? Why

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would you do that? And make
sure you're all right? I'm all right,

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aren't I? You are? Did
I hurt myself? Did I attempt

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to kill myself? That way?
You could have? I could do it

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now, obviously you could have just
a little scratch or two. What's the

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point of it I needed to If
I wasn't even hurt somebody, I hurt

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myself. That helps? Yeah?
And how long has it been that way

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for you? Thirty three and a
half years? Well, I mean I

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heard you tell your mom that you
remember things to the eighteen months old?

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What do you remember? That doesn't
matter, It doesn't make me who I

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am? I know that To answer
your To answer Steve's question, yeah,

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I was a most and and changing. In all my time listening to Kelly's

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interviews and reading about her, I've
found that she likes to lead people.

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She makes confessions about her life for
her crimes, and then immediately explains what

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those confessions or actions mean. She
tells investigators that Jason abused her, but

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she doesn't stop there. She always
follows that with statements about how abused women

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becomes submissive to their abusers and fear
them, and are thus more likely to

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comply when under duress. She memorizes
the DSM and then tells doctors and investigators

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what her symptoms are before telling them
what disorders. Those symptoms are symptomatic of

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every piece of information Kelly reveals.
She uses to lead people into giving her

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what she wants, whether it's drugs, an insanity plea, or aiding and

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abetting Jason in the murder of Chris
Regan under duress. Of course, she

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doesn't do that with the molestation,
though, in fact she gets cagy or

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defensive when discussing it. If anything, she distances herself from it. Yes,

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I was molested, but it didn't
affect who I am. Of course

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I can't help, but wonder if
it's the exact opposite. Kelly likes to

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make it clear that she's not like
other female serial killers. Adamantly so,

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and I try to make a point
not to compare Keys or Kelly to any

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other serial killers. Comparison and conflation
are thieves of impartiality and creativity after all.

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But the more I dig into Kelly, the harder it becomes to compare

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her to another serial killer, specifically
America's most notorious and well known female serial

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killer, Eileen Warnos, shot and
killed men she claimed were raping and abusing

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her. She was molested as a
child. She struggled with alcohol and drug

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abuse. She began acting out as
a teenager following her sexual abuse, which

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slowly evolved into petty crime, assault, theft, and eventually seven known homicides

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of men. So I reached out
to doctor Joni Johnston via email, who

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at this point was unaware that Kelly
may have been molested as a child and

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teenager. I was curious if,
perhaps like Warnos, Kelly's childhood molestation had

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manifested in her murders of male sexual
partners. Hi, doctor Johnston, this

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might be a reductive question slash conclusion. But if Kelly were molested by a

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man as a child and teen,
with that inform her preoccupation with slash m

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of killing men she's had sexual relationships
with, Joonie responded almost immediately. It

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could certainly be part of the picture, but how big a piece would be

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hard to say. We'd need to
look at who, what the response was,

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what the abuse entailed, etc.
But remember how unfortunately prevalent child abuse

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is. In twenty eighteen, for
instance, seven hundred thousand children were allegedly

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abused, Around forty nine thousand of
them experienced sexual abuse, and fifteen percent

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experienced multiple kinds of abuse. Now, I'm obviously not a psychologist, so

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it's important that it's clear that this
hypothesis has no real psychological base. But

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in a discussion about who Kelly is
and why Kelly is, childhood molestation is

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a critical component. And we've seen
lots of serial killers use proxies, Warnhos

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and Kemper being the most notable examples. But those are questions of my eyes,

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right, yeah, yeah, Now
do you think those answers that you

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really want to hear? No,
No, they wouldn't be, So I

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need to sugarcoat that a little bit
of were you really blessed it by your

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uncle? And who was it?
Okay, No, he's not adapt living

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alone without his daughter's miserable. Yeah, miserable. That's more satisfaction I'm getting.

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How come you I thgured he describes
and what I mean as crafty as

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you are, you're revengel. No, you like revenge in some of it.

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Nope. The uncle Kelly names as
her abuser has no available record of

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sexual abuse. He does have a
pretty clear record of substance abuse, as

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Kelly alluded to, and Kelly's parents'
reaction to hearing his name was not one

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of shock or dismay. And while
they never come out and say it,

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it seems to me that they believe
her. And then there is some connective

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tissue between Kelly's claim, my hypothesis, and Kelly's long list of victim There

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are two places that come up in
Kelly's stories over and over again, the

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South Side of Chicago and Deep River
Park. Kelly has claimed that she and

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or Jason killed or disposed of three
to five victims in Deep River Park.

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Kelly also told investigators before opening up
about her alleged molestation, that she had

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been raped at a house near Deep
River Park when she was sixteen or seventeen,

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the exact time that she was admitted
to the girl's home. Kelly's uncle

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he lived across the street from Deep
River Park. When you entertain the possibility

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that Kelly's claim is legitimate. It
reframes a lot of what we know about

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Kelly cock Grin. According to Kelly, she's killed every man she's ever slept

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with. She doesn't kill women.
Kelly and Jason lived with a convicted pedophile.

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Kelly has a bizarre and conflicting preoccupation
with both protecting children and killing innocent

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babies. Jason wrote about being a
pedophile, but he also wrote about killing

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pedophiles. When you look at psychopathy, what we certainly think is because there's

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been a lot of brain imaging studies
over the past five to ten years that

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really do show some structural and functional
differences in the brains at least of adults

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who have been diagnosed with psychopathy,
there clearly seems to be some genetic components

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and some biological components to psychopathy.
However, it appears that these genetic and

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structural components to get activated by environment. So it's almost like this perfect storm

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for a lot of people who are
psychopaths. They have this genetic predisposition,

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and if they are lucky enough to
be in a very very nurturing home,

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in a very supportive environment, then
that predisposition may not express itself the reverse.

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You might have somebody who has a
less of a predisposition and that are

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in a horrendous environment, and that
they may become a psychopath. As an

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adult, Kelly talked a lot about
keeping trophies from her kills, and she

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told Ogden multiple times that she would
tell him where those trophies were if he

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would let her spend time with them. Whether those trophies actually exist is up

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for debate, But what I do
know is that Kelly and Ogden took two

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00:32:59.680 --> 00:33:06.359
trips to Deep River Park to look
for the remains of her alleged victims buried

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00:33:06.400 --> 00:33:12.319
there, and that she's been angling
for a third trip to Deep River Park,

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00:33:13.759 --> 00:33:17.559
where she could spend time in the
park across the street from the home

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she claims her uncle molested her in. I don't have much respect for most

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00:33:25.680 --> 00:33:35.079
people. Most people irritate me.
Most people don't think you're clueless of everything

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that goes on around him. It's
hard to have respect from people like that.

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Please don't show us to my mother. But like even talking to my

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mother, I mean, like the
whole respect thing, it's I'm just saying,

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yes, I'm thinking about how I
were at this respect. Let's put

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00:34:07.319 --> 00:34:15.519
it in that respect it's a good
mh. I give you a big,

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00:34:15.559 --> 00:34:20.760
long story, but you don't need
it. I don't big us at all.

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00:34:21.639 --> 00:34:36.880
Boils down too. I'm behaving or
out of respect because, as you

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00:34:36.960 --> 00:34:39.920
know me, where as people have
told you about me, I don't listen

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to others. I don't like to
follow directions of others. I don't like

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00:34:45.679 --> 00:34:52.119
to be told to do. Yeah. I usually fight them every bit of

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the way, right, Yeah,
I haven't a little thinking Kentucky. I

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really was bored. I had too
much time to think, nothing to do

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with my brain. I was going
to do something I didn't. I've never

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00:35:10.360 --> 00:35:17.880
gotten to that point to worry.
It's perfect. I would have had no

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problem. Did you realize that?
Right? I'm sure you're capable of film

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00:35:24.480 --> 00:35:29.519
whatever you want, whenever you want
it. Well, anybody else, right,

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00:35:29.679 --> 00:35:31.159
yes, anybody's capable of anything.
I know to put your mind to

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00:35:31.239 --> 00:35:50.119
it. I didn't harp me.
Did you want? Feel feels? Did

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00:35:50.119 --> 00:36:05.400
you want not? I didn't hart
me did you want? This episode was

339
00:36:05.480 --> 00:36:08.920
written, produced, and researched by
me your host, Josh Hallmark, with

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00:36:09.119 --> 00:36:15.239
research assistants from Becca Klein. Special
thanks to doctor Joni Johnston for providing insight

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00:36:15.360 --> 00:36:22.440
on female psychopaths and serial killers.
Research resources include rain dot org and Psychology

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00:36:22.480 --> 00:36:28.199
Today. Thank you to True Crime
Bullshit's newest Patreon supporters, Nicky C.

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00:36:28.960 --> 00:36:32.920
A J D, Deborah H,
Layla B, Victoria R, Andrew F.

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00:36:34.280 --> 00:36:38.280
And Stephanie A. This episode featured
music by William Hellfire, Joseph Van

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00:36:38.360 --> 00:36:45.760
WISSEM, Kyle Preston, Stax,
Lee Rosevier, Chris Zabriski, Radical Face

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00:36:45.960 --> 00:37:25.679
and chromatics too. And then I
get the swans. Be running a bedroom,

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00:37:27.639 --> 00:38:07.960
be running running, swar run he
run