1 00:00:17,079 --> 00:00:20,920 We're back with another edition of the Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Emily Dreshinski, 2 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:23,960 culture editor here at the Federalist. As always, you can email the show 3 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:27,920 at radio at the Federalist dot com, follow us on Twitter at fdr LST, 4 00:00:28,199 --> 00:00:31,839 and make sure to subscribe wherever you download your podcasts. You can subscribe 5 00:00:31,879 --> 00:00:35,640 to the premium version of our website at the Federalist dot com as well. 6 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:40,479 Today we're excited to be joined by Brenda Schuler. She's a producer and researcher 7 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:46,240 on the Daily Wire series Convicting a Murderer. Brenda, Welcome to Federalist Radio 8 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:50,719 Hour. Thank you, Emily. Glad to be so. We were just 9 00:00:50,759 --> 00:00:54,960 talking before we started the tape, rolling kind of about how I'm sort of 10 00:00:55,000 --> 00:00:59,439 the target audience for what you guys did with Convicting a Murderer, because when 11 00:00:59,439 --> 00:01:03,399 I watched the original Making a Murderer, you know it, it was really 12 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:07,200 entertaining. I actually watched it a couple of times. My dad was really 13 00:01:07,239 --> 00:01:08,760 invested in it and wanted to, you know, watch it again and sort 14 00:01:08,760 --> 00:01:11,560 of go through things. And you know, my TAKEO is like, seems 15 00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:15,760 like this guy got real roaded. But I don't really know when I watched 16 00:01:15,799 --> 00:01:19,040 Convicting a Murderer, and by the way, yeah, this the second version 17 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:23,079 of Making a Murderer had kind of a similar takeaway. But when I watched 18 00:01:23,079 --> 00:01:26,719 Convicting a Murderer, oh my gosh, the level of deception that you guys 19 00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:30,680 were actually able to prove really brought me around to another side on that. 20 00:01:30,760 --> 00:01:33,439 So in a way, Brenda, it sounds like that's kind of what you 21 00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:37,799 were going for with Convicting a murderers, to reach sort of the normy people 22 00:01:37,879 --> 00:01:44,079 who reacted and we're done such a disservice by the original I think that's exactly 23 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:48,000 it. Emily. We didn't go into this to try to convince the people 24 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:51,519 that we'll call truthers for lack of a better term. But we didn't go 25 00:01:51,599 --> 00:01:55,439 into this to try to convince the people whose minds were made up that were 26 00:01:55,439 --> 00:01:59,920 never going to change their mind. We went into this for the people who 27 00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:05,480 watch Making the murder thought there was that there was some type of railroading going 28 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:09,360 on for perhaps some type of conspiracy with the police planting evidence to Frank Stephen 29 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:14,000 to save this thirty six million dollars. But then when they were done, 30 00:02:14,879 --> 00:02:17,120 they walked away. I mean, they didn't change things in their life to 31 00:02:17,159 --> 00:02:22,080 follow this case or do tons of research or anything. So we wanted to 32 00:02:22,199 --> 00:02:25,639 hit that audience because we thought that was the majority of the viewers. That's 33 00:02:25,639 --> 00:02:30,680 who that would be, and that's what we felt the general population, how 34 00:02:30,719 --> 00:02:32,840 most of the people that watched Making a Murder felt they came away from it 35 00:02:32,879 --> 00:02:38,159 thinking that he was innocent, but they didn't do anything further, so that 36 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:43,080 surely was right. Yeah, no, that's really interesting, and I actually 37 00:02:43,240 --> 00:02:46,280 I feel like your story is an interesting part of the story too, because 38 00:02:46,319 --> 00:02:50,080 for some people it was very much the opposite. They watched the original and 39 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:53,719 were immediately polarized in one direction or the other and wanted to dive into these 40 00:02:53,759 --> 00:02:58,400 stories. And there's so much open records, public records that you can do 41 00:02:58,400 --> 00:03:04,800 on the internet. You can just dive on into all of these paths towards 42 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:08,120 the truth and be consumed by it. And you know when you're what's to 43 00:03:08,159 --> 00:03:13,240 borrow a word, convicted in one direction or the other. There's so much 44 00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:16,159 opportunity to get closer and closer to the truth, and to get closer and 45 00:03:16,159 --> 00:03:22,159 closer to the truth about the series. So Brenda tell us a little bit 46 00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:28,280 about yourself and how you reacted to the original series. Sure, Emily, 47 00:03:28,319 --> 00:03:30,800 Well, as you know, I live about an hour from where the cell 48 00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:36,360 took place and manage what And I originally was aware of both cases, the 49 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:40,199 nineteen eighty five wrongful conviction and also the two thousand and five murder of Teresa 50 00:03:40,280 --> 00:03:46,319 Halbach. So I followed along obviously and was aware of that. And when 51 00:03:46,319 --> 00:03:51,439 I before I watched Making a Murder, I truly believe that he was guilty 52 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:55,240 of Teresa's murder. And once I watched Making a Murder, I remember sitting 53 00:03:55,240 --> 00:03:59,800 on the sofa talking to my husband and after each episode just felt like, 54 00:04:00,039 --> 00:04:01,960 Wow, I just don't understand. And like I said in the film, 55 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:05,439 I'm like, what is going on? And it was just too unbelievable to 56 00:04:05,479 --> 00:04:10,360 me because I'd never heard of, really the framing theory back in two thousand 57 00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:13,360 and five sixty seven. It wasn't like this big, big deal. It 58 00:04:13,439 --> 00:04:16,360 was just kind of something the defense had to do because Stephen was, you 59 00:04:16,399 --> 00:04:18,800 know, telling everybody he was framed, so that's what they had to go 60 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:23,560 with. So I really didn't think much about that. But when I watched 61 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:28,279 Baker and murder. I truly believe that they there was something going on, 62 00:04:28,720 --> 00:04:31,560 something I didn't know that the filmmakers were able to find that I just wasn't 63 00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:35,639 aware of because I hadn't really researched it. So I walked away from it 64 00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:44,319 that same day and have never stopped working on it since that day, December 65 00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:46,759 of twenty fifteen, here where we are yet and I never stopped working on 66 00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:50,519 it. I had recently retired from a job I was at for twenty three 67 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:56,439 years, insurance, and it had some time on my hands. My mother 68 00:04:56,519 --> 00:04:58,720 was sick, and I was just watching a lot of TV, and that's 69 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:00,959 kind of what drew me through it. And because it's, you know, 70 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:04,319 the area I'm from, and I knew the case, but I guess the 71 00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:08,800 nutural how I got involved and was just reaching out and I needed to know 72 00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:13,519 the truth, and I wasn't probably very typical from the standpoint that I just 73 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:17,560 kind of got in there. I called people, I reached out to people, 74 00:05:17,600 --> 00:05:23,720 I tweeted people, and I really reversed back to considering he was guilty 75 00:05:23,920 --> 00:05:28,079 really quick. Once I did some research, I got some answers. I 76 00:05:28,160 --> 00:05:31,680 just was back to he's guilty of the Teresa murder. He's not guilty of 77 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:36,079 the eighty five case. So my stance was very short termed when I changed 78 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:40,079 my mind, But then I kind of got involved just by reaching out to 79 00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:43,240 people and anybody who would talk to me, I talked to them, and 80 00:05:43,319 --> 00:05:46,720 people who wouldn't talk to me, I still tried. And that's kind of 81 00:05:46,759 --> 00:05:49,639 how I connected with all the different subjects. Was just telling them, you 82 00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:54,480 know, I believe Steven's guilty, and I want your side. I want 83 00:05:54,519 --> 00:05:57,920 to hear the other side of it. And then that of course, oh 84 00:05:57,959 --> 00:06:00,360 god right, oh no, I was just like, that is so interesting. 85 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:01,680 I mean, one of the things I find most interesting about true crime, 86 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:06,240 especially online, is that, you know, there's something really empowering about 87 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:12,680 being able to sort of do citizen journalism and sift through all of these records 88 00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:16,319 and you know, look at Google Maps and the aerial view and street view 89 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:21,680 and piece together these incredible puzzles, and as you document them in the series, 90 00:06:23,199 --> 00:06:25,839 there's sort of a what we see as the tip of the iceberg, 91 00:06:25,879 --> 00:06:30,199 but there's this giant community of truthers. But then people like yourself on the 92 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:34,959 other side who know each other really well and who have sort of gone down 93 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:39,160 all of these different rabbit holes together over the course of the last decade. 94 00:06:39,199 --> 00:06:42,279 Is that? Is that right? I mean there really is a community just 95 00:06:42,319 --> 00:06:46,079 around this case, isn't there. Yeah? Oh yeah, that's an understatement, 96 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:48,720 Emily. I never was really into true crime before. I don't know 97 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:51,879 what drew me to this case, but something drew me to it, and 98 00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:57,199 immediately, like right away after making a murder. I always said there was 99 00:06:57,240 --> 00:07:01,560 some type of subconscious messaging or subliminal messages in that film that just drew people 100 00:07:01,560 --> 00:07:05,240 to this case and herds. And I remember I was like three days after 101 00:07:05,279 --> 00:07:10,360 it aired I started watching it, and by then there was already family Facebook 102 00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:13,959 groups. There was just Facebook group after Facebook group, and they joined all 103 00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:16,480 of them, and there's all different ones, right depending on where you fall, 104 00:07:16,879 --> 00:07:21,120 And there were very few that Stephen Avery is guilty, very few. 105 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:26,879 Everybody was a truther early, I mean everybody, so absolutely this has been 106 00:07:26,920 --> 00:07:30,920 going on for years and even like with the West Memphis three, I haven't 107 00:07:30,959 --> 00:07:34,399 seen anything like this in all of my research, looking at all these other 108 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:39,279 just high level looking at these cases, they all have them, you know, 109 00:07:39,319 --> 00:07:42,959 some groups to some degree, but not like this, not where convicting 110 00:07:42,959 --> 00:07:47,560 a murder came out and literally people are dissecting it and calling us liars and 111 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:50,560 saying that we did this for the state and that we were paid to do 112 00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:55,240 this, and you know, all these sorts of things, and being attacked 113 00:07:55,279 --> 00:08:00,839 just because we made this counter documentary to making a murder. And so no, 114 00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:03,040 I never have seen anything like this. I know that it happens, 115 00:08:03,079 --> 00:08:07,000 but this one, I don't think there's one that can top this one. 116 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:11,279 In a community that's this and it's full of truthers, I mean, it's 117 00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:16,759 literally the majority our truthers, or they're the most vocal. Maybe yeah, 118 00:08:18,079 --> 00:08:22,800 And there's something I think that's very I guess motivating about the cause of uh, 119 00:08:24,240 --> 00:08:26,600 you know, undoing a wrongful conviction, about you know, creating or 120 00:08:26,759 --> 00:08:31,920 or bringing justice to a situation. You feel as injust that I guess is 121 00:08:31,959 --> 00:08:35,039 different. But you for what's motivating for you, I think is that there's 122 00:08:35,039 --> 00:08:45,320 something unjust about this massively successful and unquestioned, culturally powerful documentary docuseries that that 123 00:08:45,679 --> 00:08:50,200 hit pop culture and just went into the strasphere and was basically accepted as the 124 00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:54,840 gospel in popular There was really I mean it was it was celebrated with so 125 00:08:56,039 --> 00:09:00,480 little pushback, you know, with David Harsani hit at The Federalist published some 126 00:09:00,519 --> 00:09:03,320 stuff that he still gets emails about back in twenty fifteen here, and I'm 127 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:07,440 sure that's just a small sample of what you get, you know, for 128 00:09:07,799 --> 00:09:13,080 criticizing the series. But it seems like maybe that's what's that sense of injustice 129 00:09:13,159 --> 00:09:16,919 is also what motivates you and the kind of anti truthers just saying that's the 130 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:22,600 real injustice that is. That's exactly right, Emily. I when I first 131 00:09:22,639 --> 00:09:26,159 started doing this case and finding out more and more about the edits that were 132 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:31,360 made, at first, I didn't realize why or understand why, because I 133 00:09:31,399 --> 00:09:33,639 really wasn't in the industry. I watched documentaries. I thought there were like 134 00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:37,559 sixty minutes, you know, you watch they're kind of boring, but they've 135 00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:41,879 really changed over the years to be so far from journalism that that shocked me 136 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:46,080 that when I was watching that. So when I first learned about the Blood 137 00:09:46,159 --> 00:09:48,600 Vile, it was probably the first one that I was like, wait a 138 00:09:48,639 --> 00:09:52,720 minute, that hole is there. So of course I reached out and got 139 00:09:52,720 --> 00:09:54,039 the answer on that, and that was the first thing that kind of drew 140 00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:56,759 me to well, why did they leave that in? Why was that in 141 00:09:56,799 --> 00:10:01,360 there? And then it got more and more agreed. As I went I 142 00:10:01,399 --> 00:10:07,440 started comparing the trial transcripts next to the transcript from Making a Murder the episodes, 143 00:10:07,759 --> 00:10:09,840 and I was finding all of these little edits that just made no sense 144 00:10:09,879 --> 00:10:13,480 to me. And Candice said it, I think really well in convicting, 145 00:10:13,519 --> 00:10:16,879 she said, it's a death by a thousand edits. They do all these 146 00:10:16,879 --> 00:10:22,240 little tiny edits, like removing words at the end of a sentence that lead 147 00:10:22,279 --> 00:10:26,320 you to believe that they were just focused on Steven that day and just all 148 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:30,120 these like little edits. So that just blew my mind that that was allowed. 149 00:10:30,480 --> 00:10:35,519 And the more I heard the filmmakers in twenty sixteen, they would do 150 00:10:35,519 --> 00:10:39,440 their interviews talking about we're just following this story. We were just there, 151 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:43,679 we pointed the camera, we let things unfold, you know, we weren't 152 00:10:43,759 --> 00:10:48,320 advocates. And to literally have the phone calls, to hear them talking to 153 00:10:48,480 --> 00:10:54,519 Stephen and telling them although your nephew just confessed that you did this murder and 154 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:58,519 he was part of it and raped her and all of these different things. 155 00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:01,960 To have the first thing that they do is call his mother and say we're 156 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:07,120 still on your side, We're still going to support you. It made me 157 00:11:07,360 --> 00:11:11,279 mad. I was angry, and my Reddit name, as a matter of 158 00:11:11,360 --> 00:11:16,559 fact, like it's ron writer is what it is, and that's exactly the 159 00:11:16,639 --> 00:11:20,320 case. Is my objective going into this was always to hold people accountable because 160 00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:24,240 as they researched more and more and found more and more edits, it wasn't 161 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:31,120 just the police that they were making look you know, skeptical, they it 162 00:11:31,159 --> 00:11:35,080 wasn't just them. It was Sandra Morris, his cousin, that they tweaked 163 00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:39,240 her deposition footage to make it appear that she was the one going around and 164 00:11:39,279 --> 00:11:43,720 saying all these rumors. So it really angered me that they would take these 165 00:11:43,759 --> 00:11:48,759 women who were victims, you know, his wife, Laurie or I'm not 166 00:11:48,759 --> 00:11:50,960 even going to bring up the cat, but you know, that's just one 167 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:56,320 example that they just glossed over all of his history, and what we put 168 00:11:56,360 --> 00:11:58,559 in the show wasn't even all of it. I mean, there is actually 169 00:11:58,639 --> 00:12:05,120 a lot more of just different things he did. Nothing as like his knees 170 00:12:05,279 --> 00:12:07,320 or whatnot, nothing like that, but there's just a lot of other minor 171 00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:11,000 crimes that he did over the years and even one in two thousand and five. 172 00:12:11,039 --> 00:12:15,720 In October of two thousand and five, right before the murder, he 173 00:12:16,279 --> 00:12:22,399 passed off faulty what do you call it, money orders or something. He 174 00:12:24,039 --> 00:12:26,919 at a credit union, in a local credit union. He was still doing 175 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:30,759 staft and fraud up until the day he committed the crime, almost so it 176 00:12:30,799 --> 00:12:35,799 was like early October two thousand and five. He was still committing crimes, 177 00:12:35,080 --> 00:12:39,639 which is interesting because part of their argument is that why would he jeopardize this 178 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:46,159 massive settlement he was about to get from the first case exactly exactly And guess 179 00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:50,679 who didn't let them talk to him once they started researching that fraud. His 180 00:12:50,679 --> 00:12:52,919 attorneys wouldn't even let him talk to the police about it. So that just 181 00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:58,519 followed by the wayside, and that company lost five grand or something. It 182 00:12:58,559 --> 00:13:01,879 was five or six thousand dollars. He just wrote a bad money order and 183 00:13:01,919 --> 00:13:05,480 they took it. Unfortunately, it's a credit union and a local credit union. 184 00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:09,360 So that's something I don't think we brought up anywhere yet. But there's 185 00:13:09,399 --> 00:13:13,080 just so many more things like that, and so the filmmakers to make him 186 00:13:13,159 --> 00:13:22,320 look like this downtrodden, poor, ignorant, simple minded person just angered me, 187 00:13:24,279 --> 00:13:26,200 and I think it still angers me. Probably why I'm still here today 188 00:13:26,279 --> 00:13:30,759 is still pushing back on it because I want them held accountable. I want 189 00:13:30,759 --> 00:13:35,519 people to see what they did right to so many people. Yeah, I 190 00:13:35,559 --> 00:13:39,519 mean that's completely understandable, and especially I think it's probably almost addictive with all 191 00:13:39,519 --> 00:13:43,440 the tools that you have at your disposal to Like you were talking about the 192 00:13:43,519 --> 00:13:46,720 transcripts, I mean, just being able to look at those, I was 193 00:13:46,799 --> 00:13:50,679 stunned by. I mean, I think again, I think I watched the 194 00:13:50,679 --> 00:13:54,320 original a couple of times. I may have even watched it three times when 195 00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:56,960 it first came out because my dad wanted to show it to a bunch of 196 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:01,240 people. I mean, it was very very entertaining and kind of get their 197 00:14:01,279 --> 00:14:05,080 thoughts on it and all of that stuff. I was really really surprised to 198 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:09,200 see even some of the footage from the Brendan Dassy interview, some of the 199 00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:13,960 things that they left out. There's as a journalist. There is absolutely no 200 00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:18,840 explanation for that. And the original filmmakers who have been celebrated and feted have 201 00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:24,000 changed their own tune about whether they were actually engaged in journalism, and sometimes 202 00:14:24,039 --> 00:14:28,320 they say they are, sometimes they aren't. But you know, you were 203 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:33,720 talking Brenda about how your first experience, it's sort of diving into this right 204 00:14:33,759 --> 00:14:37,759 away, you saw things that made you put you firmly back in the camp 205 00:14:37,799 --> 00:14:41,960 if he was guilty. And then as you are researching this movie, did 206 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:46,639 you find other things or this series? What are some of the key pieces 207 00:14:46,639 --> 00:14:48,879 you mentioned the blood file? What are some of the key pieces This is 208 00:14:50,159 --> 00:14:52,519 probably impossible for you to summarize because you've been doing this for years at a 209 00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:56,279 very high level of detail, But what are some of the big ones that 210 00:14:56,360 --> 00:15:01,720 stand out in terms of his actual innocence I'm sorry, his actual guilt. 211 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:05,480 Sure, I mean, I think the biggest one that's probably the most difficult 212 00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:11,399 for anybody to explain from somebody who believes he's innocent, is the blood in 213 00:15:11,399 --> 00:15:13,840 the RAF. So in making a murder, we see that he's, you 214 00:15:13,879 --> 00:15:18,559 know, Q tip using a Q tip to kind of put this this little 215 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:24,240 blood stain on in certain ways right by the ignition and what they there's a 216 00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:26,559 lot of things they leave out with the blood stain. And that's one thing 217 00:15:26,559 --> 00:15:30,440 with this case is it's not just ever a simple answer, like you said, 218 00:15:30,759 --> 00:15:33,919 So the blood in the raf Okay, So he only bleed. He 219 00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:39,000 blood in six places and three different types of stains, So there was like 220 00:15:39,039 --> 00:15:43,279 a transfer stain, there was a passive drip stain. If you look at 221 00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:46,919 Akham's racer and just say, okay, if you frame a guy, you 222 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:50,559 have a certain timeframe. You got to get that blood in the vehicle, 223 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:54,399 and you're going to take a Q tip and you're going to paint around the 224 00:15:54,519 --> 00:15:58,919 dashboard right there, and you're going to drip some on the rear frame of 225 00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:02,240 the passenger door, and you're going to smear some on our CD case. 226 00:16:03,159 --> 00:16:06,279 Okay. And the argument is, well, there wasn't any on the steering 227 00:16:06,279 --> 00:16:07,639 wheel, there's a door handle. Well, if you're going to frame them, 228 00:16:07,679 --> 00:16:12,039 I'm going to slap some on the console or on the drive, the 229 00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:17,840 shifter or on the door handle. I'm not going to paint it. So 230 00:16:17,919 --> 00:16:22,240 one thing that we did to try to show how ridiculous that is is we 231 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:26,639 show the bloodstain and then you see me kind of talking to a forensic expert 232 00:16:26,799 --> 00:16:30,120 from the crime lab like how would you do this? And there's all these 233 00:16:30,159 --> 00:16:33,840 like little smudges around it that you never see. So this person, if 234 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:37,879 they're framing him and painting that. How would they ever they get a fine 235 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:41,879 tip paintbrush that they're dabbing these little teeny dots around it, you know, 236 00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:45,960 that's battered. So it's just that type of thing. And another big one 237 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:48,519 too, is the bullet. The bullet in the garage. I had Teresa's 238 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:53,480 DNA on it, and that it matched to the exclusion of all other guns. 239 00:16:53,519 --> 00:16:56,759 It matched the gun that hung above Steve in Avery's bed, and you 240 00:16:56,840 --> 00:17:00,799 didn't know that. And they edit And this was like a huge edit to 241 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:04,079 me in my mind, because I'm sure people would say, well, what 242 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:07,720 didn't say ballistics test it? Well, yeah, they did. But what 243 00:17:07,799 --> 00:17:11,599 they did in making a murder was talk about a different bullet, and they 244 00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:15,759 said that that one it was flattened, right, It was a flattened bullet, 245 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:18,240 alluding to the fact that, well, you can't do it, it's 246 00:17:18,279 --> 00:17:22,119 too damaged to test. But yet the one that they were talking about in 247 00:17:22,119 --> 00:17:26,880 the actual trial was the one with Truth's DNA on. It was nearly intact, 248 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:30,079 and they did match it to Steven's gun. I'm sorry, the gun 249 00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:33,400 that was hanging above the bad A lot of truthers like to say, but 250 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:37,240 it wasn't his gun. No, it was the guy who owned the trailer's 251 00:17:37,319 --> 00:17:41,119 gun had been hanging there, but it was the gun that was used. 252 00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:45,079 And the fact that Steven wiped it off and said that in a phone call. 253 00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:48,720 Come on, I mean, so it's all these it's all of those 254 00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:52,359 little types of things. And then you know what other types of evidence, 255 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:57,240 the rab being covered with debris, and you know, the license plates, 256 00:17:57,359 --> 00:18:03,000 not knowing that the license plates were removed and put in a in a different 257 00:18:03,079 --> 00:18:04,680 vehicle. Fold it up. If you're planting somebody, you're gonna leave the 258 00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:07,880 plates on, or you're not going to fold them up you want someone to 259 00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:12,119 find them. And all these little types of things that just seem weird. 260 00:18:12,119 --> 00:18:15,880 But the biggest ones are the ones they left out, which were the hood 261 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:19,119 latch DNA In making a murder one, I'm talking about the hood latch DNA 262 00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:23,039 and TRACE's electronics and the burn barrel and the witnesses who saw that fire burning. 263 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:27,599 How do you explain that if you're trying to give a narrative that Stephen 264 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:33,000 Avery's anna sink, those two pieces are evidence. I think the hood latch, 265 00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:38,319 specifically being non blood, are the most difficult and they just left it 266 00:18:38,359 --> 00:18:42,400 out. They left it out of making a murder one and there's just no 267 00:18:42,559 --> 00:18:47,039 good reason for that. I mean, it's just stunning. I mean, 268 00:18:47,079 --> 00:18:49,839 when I watched some of this, you know, again, like I'm sort 269 00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:55,079 of speaking as a journalists, it's just amazing to me that, you know, 270 00:18:56,359 --> 00:18:57,880 I felt very naive, if not that I you know, went on 271 00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:02,359 the record and was like Steve Aby is innocent or anything like that. It 272 00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:04,119 was just sort of a thought that I had. But I feel so naive 273 00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:08,720 in retrospect, But it's not. I don't think it's necessarily about naivete to 274 00:19:08,759 --> 00:19:14,079 do some cover for myself right now. I think it's about how powerful the 275 00:19:14,559 --> 00:19:18,039 format could be. He really just makes you question everything, as we should 276 00:19:18,119 --> 00:19:22,440 question everything that comes out like that. But the manipulation of the facts here 277 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:25,640 was on another level. And actually, Brenda, that makes me want to 278 00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:29,359 ask. One of the conclusions that I think I had just kind of in 279 00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:33,599 my own mind was he's probably guilty, but it looks like maybe there was 280 00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:38,200 some malfeasance. It looks like something was up at the Manuchwac Police Department. 281 00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:45,160 And as people may know that there's a whole he was about to get a 282 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:47,920 settlement, you can explain it. By then I can brenda. But so 283 00:19:48,359 --> 00:19:52,599 they didn't have jurisdiction over the entire case, and blah blah blah. But 284 00:19:52,839 --> 00:19:57,599 was there anything funny going on with the police? Do you think there was 285 00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:03,880 anything that was mishandled? There's some incredible interviews in convicting a murderer, which 286 00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:07,079 must have been almost like a dream, almost surreal for you to spend so 287 00:20:07,119 --> 00:20:11,440 much time on the case and then to get to ask and come up with 288 00:20:11,559 --> 00:20:15,160 questions and present research to some of these people who are involved in the case. 289 00:20:15,279 --> 00:20:18,680 Was there any did they do anything wrong? Did they do anything corrupt? 290 00:20:18,759 --> 00:20:22,880 Now that you've spent so much time sort of putting research into this, 291 00:20:22,839 --> 00:20:29,599 well, again you're talking to somebody who believes is guilty. So my opinion 292 00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:34,039 may not mean a whole lot of people who don't agree. But I will 293 00:20:34,039 --> 00:20:37,519 tell you right now, from my opinion the research that I've done, there 294 00:20:37,519 --> 00:20:41,799 were things done wrong, Yes, there were? Should pictures? Should the 295 00:20:41,839 --> 00:20:45,039 crime lab have taken pictures of the fire pit on the first day? Yes? 296 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:49,079 Do I understand why they didn't? Yes? I do. So you 297 00:20:49,079 --> 00:20:56,920 can make that something that's corrupt versus something that was more and oversight. There's 298 00:20:56,960 --> 00:21:02,160 reports that have the wrong tag numbers. So there's like no one wants to 299 00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:06,359 give any leniency for anything that the cops do wrong. It's just something to 300 00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:08,759 target on and say that this was something that was sketchy or that they did 301 00:21:08,799 --> 00:21:12,440 and we should be suspicious about it. But we break down right from the 302 00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:17,920 beginning, we break down that this thirty six million dollars was against the county. 303 00:21:18,079 --> 00:21:21,160 It was not against the sheriff's department. It was against the prior district 304 00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:26,680 attorney and the prior sheriff. Nothing to do with Colburn and Lank, who 305 00:21:26,759 --> 00:21:30,039 were pinpointed as kind of the main villa villains and did the planting. And 306 00:21:30,079 --> 00:21:36,039 we show that when you make this decision, when they decided to the car 307 00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:38,200 was found out at the salvy jard they're like, oh wait a minute, 308 00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:42,400 you know he was the last person this see here, We probably shouldn't lead 309 00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:48,640 this investigation. And it was the people who were elected officials that made that 310 00:21:48,799 --> 00:21:55,240 decision refused themselves. So they had ten crats from Caliumet become the prosecutor. 311 00:21:55,839 --> 00:22:00,759 They had the sheriff from Kelliumet take over the investigation. They have the lead 312 00:22:00,799 --> 00:22:07,240 investigator from Calumet to take over that along with the DCI agent. So Manitwac 313 00:22:07,039 --> 00:22:12,240 elected officials and above or you know, those people recuse themselves. The corner 314 00:22:12,279 --> 00:22:17,559 is an elected official. By the way, nobody from that election and elected 315 00:22:17,599 --> 00:22:22,960 and above were allowed on the site. However, they needed resources. Calumet's 316 00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:26,519 a really small county, it is, they don't have evidence talks like Manuscat 317 00:22:26,519 --> 00:22:29,920 County. They needed them and they needed them quick. They found the car, 318 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:32,480 they need to get on that property, they need to search and it's 319 00:22:32,519 --> 00:22:37,279 a big place. So they utilized these Manu Tak officers. But they said, 320 00:22:37,559 --> 00:22:42,640 let's make sure, due to the perception of a possible conflict of interest, 321 00:22:42,799 --> 00:22:48,640 let's make sure we have somebody from DCI or somebody from Calumet with any 322 00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:53,440 officers from Calumet at all times. So those officers weren't elected officials, they 323 00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:59,279 were officers, and one of them was an investigator, but he still wasn't 324 00:22:59,279 --> 00:23:03,400 an elected official like the sheriff is. And Manuchwac made that decision. So 325 00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:07,880 nobody came and said, oh, you have to recuse yourselves all of you 326 00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:11,160 know, some person saying that that wasn't the case. At all. It 327 00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:18,599 was MANUCHUAC that was being proactive and maybe a murder showed one press conference where 328 00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:22,039 they're saying, oh, we use them for equipment and things like that, 329 00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:25,519 and alluded to the fact that they should have never been there, and then 330 00:23:25,559 --> 00:23:29,000 they made this big deal out of them finding all this evidence, but that 331 00:23:29,079 --> 00:23:32,519 wasn't the case. There were evidence texts they were there looking for evidence with 332 00:23:32,759 --> 00:23:37,400 a Calium met person or a VCI person and the fact that that was in 333 00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:48,680 for press conferences where Poggle or somebody krat said it's Manuchwac and Calumet's investigation or 334 00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:53,359 the support of Manuchwac meaning their assistance manpower two that they only played the one 335 00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:59,160 at the end, And I mean, I think we show that really well, 336 00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:03,000 that that was now a reason for them also to be involved or to 337 00:24:03,039 --> 00:24:07,519 frame him for this thirty six million dollars because it wasn't coming out of any 338 00:24:07,519 --> 00:24:11,119 of these officers pockets. It didn't he settled the last suit the insurance company 339 00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:18,240 paid. They would have had to prove malicious and I don't think they could 340 00:24:18,279 --> 00:24:21,400 have done that because in everything I looked at, I see things they did 341 00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:25,799 wrong. Just even from talking to the different officers about it. Tom FoST 342 00:24:25,839 --> 00:24:29,279 Funder said, we should have got that dog out sooner. They were looking 343 00:24:29,319 --> 00:24:32,440 for a body. They didn't know there were bones in the fire pit. 344 00:24:32,599 --> 00:24:36,039 People in the country were in the garbage all the time. So Tom was 345 00:24:36,079 --> 00:24:37,000 like, we should have got the dog out earlier. But then if you 346 00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:38,880 get the dog out earlier, then they're like, oh, you knew there 347 00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:42,279 were bones in there. You wanted to quick get the bones. You can't 348 00:24:42,319 --> 00:24:47,640 win. They couldn't win. So and why didn't you go in the Rev 349 00:24:47,759 --> 00:24:49,920 four when you first got there. Don't you want to see if there's something 350 00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:55,880 in there that points to her her being you know, hurt. No, 351 00:24:56,039 --> 00:24:59,039 it's raining out, it's windy. You're not going to open the vehicle. 352 00:24:59,039 --> 00:25:00,279 If they would have opened them vehicle, it would have been wide. You 353 00:25:00,319 --> 00:25:06,200 open the vehicle, so they can't win. But yeah, to answer your 354 00:25:06,279 --> 00:25:11,680 question, I guess I don't believe anything was malicious like anything. I think 355 00:25:11,759 --> 00:25:17,759 everything was lack of oversight or it was just such a huge investigation and so 356 00:25:17,839 --> 00:25:22,480 many different elements that were involved in it, and so many interviews. I 357 00:25:22,519 --> 00:25:27,079 with one record literally right now saying guarantee there is not a bigger case in 358 00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:34,920 the history of the world that has this many different cases within the case and 359 00:25:36,079 --> 00:25:41,480 crimes and police reports and just Avery's history and the nineteen ninety six appeals we 360 00:25:41,519 --> 00:25:45,400 didn't even really get into, and the twenty ten appeals that we didn't really 361 00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:48,319 get into, and then the aftermath, you know, the making, the 362 00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:53,000 murder aftermath, and all of Zelner's things. There's nothing compared to this case. 363 00:25:56,680 --> 00:26:00,319 The Watchdout on Wall Street podcast with the Chris Markowski. Every day Chris 364 00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:04,319 helps unpack the connection between politics and the economy and how it affects your wallet. 365 00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:08,519 The virtue signaling has come to roosts as the US reaches its highest level 366 00:26:08,519 --> 00:26:14,079 of illegal border crossings ever recorded. Our leftist mayors still calling their city sanctuary 367 00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:17,359 cities. Now that the problem is visible. These cities are on the brink 368 00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:19,559 of collapse. Whether it's happening in DC or down on Wall Street, it's 369 00:26:19,559 --> 00:26:23,039 affecting you financially. Be informed. Check out the Watchdot on Wall Street podcast 370 00:26:23,079 --> 00:26:30,039 with Chris Markowski on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. 371 00:26:30,279 --> 00:26:34,759 Zunler came in really hot and said, you know, basically that she's never 372 00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:40,240 lost a case like this, She's never been able. She's never failed that, 373 00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:45,079 overturning convictions when she takes on a case, and we have basically again, 374 00:26:45,079 --> 00:26:48,319 I don't follow this as closely as you guys do, but seems to 375 00:26:48,319 --> 00:26:51,559 me like it's crickets from her camp over the last couple of years, Brenda, 376 00:26:52,519 --> 00:26:55,920 Well, I think it's been dying down a little bit, but she's 377 00:26:55,960 --> 00:27:03,039 still siling. They're still doing filings and they're perfectly able to do that obviously 378 00:27:03,039 --> 00:27:07,079 and pushing that. But they have found a smoking gun or anything. No, 379 00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:11,279 And we talked about what's left right now and was waiting through the Appello 380 00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:14,720 courts and things like that, and I think we're waiting for her to file 381 00:27:14,759 --> 00:27:18,440 something else. That's in December is the do date. But in a nutshell, 382 00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:22,400 the two things that are left, I just don't see them going anywhere 383 00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:26,440 because even if it went to an evidential hearing, they're really easily I think 384 00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:30,920 that there's answers really easily that can be if those person people got put on 385 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:37,720 a stand, it's not going anywhere in my opinion. Yeah, I wanted 386 00:27:37,759 --> 00:27:41,400 to ask you about actually the Brendan Dacy confession because, again, to some 387 00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:45,559 people who may not be super familiar with the case, or are just briefly 388 00:27:45,559 --> 00:27:48,920 familiar with the case, they might know that there was a confession, and 389 00:27:48,079 --> 00:27:53,119 a very specific confession that in making a murder of the first version, the 390 00:27:53,160 --> 00:28:00,640 filmmakers attribute to Brendan Dassi having a low IQ, reading a book with details 391 00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:06,119 about a murder and then regurgitating them under pressure, not totally understanding the consequences 392 00:28:06,279 --> 00:28:11,519 of giving a confession to the police officers in the time after the murder. 393 00:28:11,759 --> 00:28:15,440 But what you guys, you guys did in convicting a murder is includes some 394 00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:22,480 some of that confession that I hadn't seen. It was amazing, how how 395 00:28:22,519 --> 00:28:29,039 egregious some of that footage, how how you know, ridiculous it is to 396 00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:33,480 leave some of that footage out from the original series. It's so detailed and 397 00:28:33,599 --> 00:28:36,319 so specific, isn't it. You know, when when you're at when they're 398 00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:40,559 asking specific things about what Stephen Avery did, about what they did with the 399 00:28:40,559 --> 00:28:44,480 body, about what I mean, it seems almost impossible. And I know 400 00:28:44,559 --> 00:28:47,920 there are I know there are false confessions. I know there are forced confessions. 401 00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:51,279 This really doesn't seem like one of them when you include the footage that 402 00:28:51,319 --> 00:28:56,079 you guys made sure to including convicting. Well, I think Emily, what 403 00:28:56,079 --> 00:28:59,359 I would say is, remember we were doing a rebuttal. So I like 404 00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:06,240 to point that out simply because I think anybody could watch a clip from making 405 00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:10,160 a murder or convicting a murder and have an opinion, but someone else is 406 00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:11,400 going to come back and say, yeah, but they told him that like 407 00:29:11,759 --> 00:29:17,960 the an hour before that. So my suggestion always is if you can find 408 00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:21,759 the time to start from the beginning and listen to all of his interviews, 409 00:29:21,799 --> 00:29:26,000 like all at once, that's probably going to give your best feeling for how 410 00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:32,599 involved you think Brendan is. He is completely an outlier in my opinion. 411 00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:37,599 I mean, I do believe he was involved, probably more than a lot 412 00:29:37,599 --> 00:29:41,599 of people. His role was more than a lot of people think it was. 413 00:29:41,359 --> 00:29:45,200 I don't think he was coerced. I don't think his IQ had anything 414 00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:48,279 to do with it, to be honest, because he knew right from wrong, 415 00:29:48,759 --> 00:29:52,039 and I don't think people realize that that's all that matters. It doesn't 416 00:29:52,079 --> 00:29:55,799 matter what your IQ is. I mean, people in prison, there's a 417 00:29:55,799 --> 00:30:00,720 lot of intelligent people, but a lot of people in prison have high IQ's. 418 00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:06,759 That's possibly why they're in prison. They don't realize the consequences or whatever 419 00:30:06,759 --> 00:30:10,799 it may be. But in general, having a low IQ isn't going to 420 00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:15,119 be the reason you falsely confess, if you know right from wrong. But 421 00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:19,680 if he's that suggestible from officers, he's also that suggestible from other people. 422 00:30:19,839 --> 00:30:23,920 And why couldn't it be Stephen that was suggesting he get involved and the person 423 00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:32,319 who he trusted and that was maybe who was he was more suggestible to. 424 00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:36,839 But as far as like, I don't feel it was coerced. But I 425 00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:38,799 also, like I said, wanted to point out that I think that everybody 426 00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:44,799 should listen to more of it because we did also try to find the parts 427 00:30:44,839 --> 00:30:48,759 that we were referring to, you know, so there are other parts of 428 00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:53,039 that confession that are really interesting, but we're just trying to rebut certain parts 429 00:30:53,039 --> 00:30:56,480 of it. So I think people should watch the whole thing. And we 430 00:30:56,599 --> 00:31:00,960 say too, you know, don't trust documentaries. They are entertainment. They 431 00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:06,359 are entertainment, but you still the things that you are picking to write about 432 00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:11,759 or show you still have to not change the meaning of it. You can't 433 00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:15,519 change the meaning. And that's bottom line what was done. Because I don't 434 00:31:15,519 --> 00:31:19,200 believe I don't consider documentaries journalism anymore. I thought that they were, but 435 00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:23,079 I don't. And I think in Brendan's situation, that's a good example of 436 00:31:25,359 --> 00:31:29,160 not being journalism and making a murder, but then in convicting a murder, 437 00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:32,400 there is more to the story and we're giving one side of it. Really, 438 00:31:33,039 --> 00:31:37,359 so you should do your research, you should do your due diligence. 439 00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:40,519 And I think that's Whydilly Way was so interested in it too. With just 440 00:31:40,559 --> 00:31:45,480 in general, you're getting wrong information and people are taking advantage of that, 441 00:31:45,559 --> 00:31:48,759 and you have these people that are gullible like me, like I was, 442 00:31:48,559 --> 00:31:52,880 and in the end they don't realize that they were being They were following a 443 00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:56,400 story that wasn't accurate, And I think you can do that. You just 444 00:31:56,440 --> 00:32:00,839 have to be transparent about it. If they did, yeah, if they 445 00:32:00,839 --> 00:32:06,000 didn't go out and tell everybody like we were just following the story and they 446 00:32:06,079 --> 00:32:10,119 said this is based on a story or this is a docudrama, that's all 447 00:32:10,119 --> 00:32:13,799 they had to do. But why did you go out and do these interviews 448 00:32:13,799 --> 00:32:16,119 and act like you were just to fly on the wall When I have phone 449 00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:21,599 calls where you're telling Steven you'll look into stuff for him. That's what was 450 00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:28,440 eye opening for me, that the sound bites of their interactions with Stephen Avery. 451 00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:31,960 And again, as a journalist, nobody really wants their their full phone 452 00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:37,319 calls to be public because you always have to do a little source management. 453 00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:39,960 You always have to, you know, say wow, thank you so much 454 00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:45,640 for doing this, you know, just really glad. But that she went, 455 00:32:45,759 --> 00:32:49,440 both of them went beyond that. And you guys included those clips in 456 00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:52,839 the movie and that you know, it's one thing to make a documentary and 457 00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:55,920 say, as convicting does, say we are on one side of this argument. 458 00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:59,680 So if you think there's bias, go read the other side. Go 459 00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:02,279 write the primary sources, read the transcript. That is not what they did. 460 00:33:04,359 --> 00:33:07,160 No, no, but not at all. And I think that again 461 00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:13,680 is the reason I early on became so frustrated with that, because I felt 462 00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:17,759 lied to and I was mad that so many people were affected by it because 463 00:33:17,799 --> 00:33:22,240 of that. They didn't have to do that, They did not have to 464 00:33:22,279 --> 00:33:25,799 do that. It was such an easy fix to just say this was and 465 00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:30,759 they did partially say this was Stephen's story, But then why did you also 466 00:33:30,839 --> 00:33:36,279 say that they were just following the case as an unfolded No, you weren't 467 00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:40,680 because that blood biole never even made it into trial, the hole in it, 468 00:33:42,519 --> 00:33:45,599 So that's not following the story. You cut off the narrative where you 469 00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:49,799 wanted it to get cut off. So yeah, you can probably hear my 470 00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:53,559 passion. And I'm still very passionate about it because I am angry. I'm 471 00:33:53,599 --> 00:33:57,880 angry about it, but yeah, which is understandable. I mean, I 472 00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:00,799 think it's a lesson for a lot of people. And I think Cereal was 473 00:34:00,799 --> 00:34:02,359 a lesson for a lot of people too, but this, I think this 474 00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:09,800 had even wider sort of consequence than Cereal did because for so many people it's 475 00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:14,719 now kind of a reckoning and I hope more people are seeing facts about it. 476 00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:19,079 But just a good lesson in that this true crime boom that's happening right 477 00:34:19,119 --> 00:34:22,280 now. You know, a documentary is entertainment, and if you look at 478 00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:25,199 it as entertainment, great, if you want to, you know, be 479 00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:30,639 publicly on the record, tweeting, making arguments that will affect real people's lives, 480 00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:32,519 right, you probably shouldn't do that, to be doing that based on 481 00:34:32,559 --> 00:34:37,280 the entertainment itself. No, that's exactly right, and the fact that this 482 00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:44,480 one, I mean Alan Baldwin is out tweeting about it as he watched it 483 00:34:45,119 --> 00:34:49,079 and making assumptions, and I'm just I'm just one that the family is off 484 00:34:49,119 --> 00:34:52,000 limits, right, I just just leave them poor people alone. They're off 485 00:34:52,039 --> 00:34:57,360 limits. You shouldn't be assuming anything about them. But people just have no 486 00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:01,039 you know, just no emotion about that at all, like the Victims family. 487 00:35:01,119 --> 00:35:06,599 And when he's putting things about my callback and talking about him being disturbing, 488 00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:10,960 and I'm just that's so I don't even have a word for it. 489 00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:17,519 It's just so disheartening and frustrating. You are watching a show and you're tweeting 490 00:35:17,559 --> 00:35:22,760 about it and seeing things negative about the Victims family, And yeah, it's 491 00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:29,119 been a really eye opening experience throughout the years. As just I never thought 492 00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:31,039 certain things like this could happen. I just have never had any idea, 493 00:35:31,599 --> 00:35:35,880 never had any idea. I've never been close to that. Why do you 494 00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:39,760 think that is just this level of maybe trust in information, in companies like 495 00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:45,199 Netflix and people who are given resources to do work like this. Why do 496 00:35:45,199 --> 00:35:49,440 you think I agree, I think that's similar with a lot of people who 497 00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:57,239 previously saw the world through a more trusting lens. Well, I think people 498 00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:00,320 take things too much to heart these days. They don't do any due diligence 499 00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:05,199 because everything's right there for you. And I also think the way that this 500 00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:10,880 was edited, I think that it was brilliant. They the editors that worked 501 00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:16,559 on this film knew what they were doing and they were brilliant. And Netflix, 502 00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:21,639 I know, I mean, they care about their bottom line, just 503 00:36:21,679 --> 00:36:24,599 like most companies do. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but where 504 00:36:24,599 --> 00:36:29,760 do you draw the line in entertainment? And if they had just purchased it 505 00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:34,599 and put it on on the air, that would have been one thing. 506 00:36:34,639 --> 00:36:37,000 But when they're literally getting involved and saying, okay, you know, make 507 00:36:37,079 --> 00:36:43,239 the family look really happy, and you know, coleburn this scene is great. 508 00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:46,280 It's making it. It's setting it up for the next episode to make 509 00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:50,559 it look like cops had a reason to frame them. Can we make it 510 00:36:50,599 --> 00:36:55,800 look like they were there unwarranted to frame or to plant evidence. Netflix is 511 00:36:55,840 --> 00:37:00,079 helping with the editing and won an Emmy for that. So would you ever 512 00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:07,159 think amazing that Netflix themselves would be involved in something so dishonest? No? 513 00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:12,239 I did not think that. Yeah, I think that's a trust issue, 514 00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:15,840 I absolutely do. I why would they do that. In my eyes, 515 00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:17,960 they already got it's a good show without it. You didn't need all that, 516 00:37:20,079 --> 00:37:23,840 So I don't know other than it was a brilliantly edited series that was 517 00:37:24,199 --> 00:37:30,239 very entertaining. I had beautiful music. Their music was the most haunting music, 518 00:37:30,679 --> 00:37:34,800 and you had the perfect you had the villains, and you had everything. 519 00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:37,880 It was just such an interesting case that I diet understand why people were 520 00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:42,960 so taken in by it. I don't know why people hold onto it for 521 00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:45,039 so long or still holding on to it. Well, and that's exactly where 522 00:37:45,039 --> 00:37:49,719 I wanted to go next. I really wanted to ask you especially actually, 523 00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:53,800 one of the most fascinating parts of convicting a murderer is your conversations and your 524 00:37:54,239 --> 00:38:00,000 entirely good faith interactions with some of the people in the truth or community. 525 00:38:00,199 --> 00:38:04,679 Really is a community, As you were saying earlier, how have you also 526 00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:08,800 alluded to this earlier? But how has convicting landed with the truth or crowd? 527 00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:15,000 What are their reactions, what's it been like to sort of re visit 528 00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:21,880 this case in such a detailed and high profile away once again, really again 529 00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:23,800 on that, Well, first of all, I want to add something my 530 00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:29,960 interactions with the truthers. They're very much not happy with me, the ones 531 00:38:30,039 --> 00:38:32,840 that are in a certain group, and they have a rebuttal going on right 532 00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:37,440 now where they do YouTube video, so feel free to check them out, 533 00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:43,360 follow play on YouTube. But they're rebutting all of the evidence that we brought 534 00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:47,440 forward, and in a way I understand because everybody that I interview I actually 535 00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:51,639 try to build a rapport with first. They're going to be subjects. I 536 00:38:51,679 --> 00:38:54,480 want to do right by them. I don't go into it thinking, oh, 537 00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:59,280 we're going to make these people look stupid or we're going to make this 538 00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:00,920 group look good. But I don't want to do that. I want to 539 00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:05,320 be as you know, as open as I can. But you're also going 540 00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:08,360 to use the things that makes sense for the parts you're talking about. So 541 00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:12,719 if I'm talking about the cat, that's the best clips I have, we're 542 00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:16,239 going to use those, right So I think for them, they're they're not 543 00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:24,280 happy with the portrayal, and I understand that, but they have an opportunity 544 00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:28,199 now to do a rebuttal on it. So you know, like I said, 545 00:39:28,239 --> 00:39:30,960 feel free to go check that out. That's their view of it, 546 00:39:30,039 --> 00:39:36,239 and I understand where they're coming from. But yeah, it's definitely been the 547 00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:38,679 majority of the people I've heard from are people have never talked to ever, 548 00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:44,400 and are the people we talked about earlier. People who watch making a murder. 549 00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:47,400 You never saw them again until convicting a murder. And they're private messaging 550 00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:52,480 me thanking me for being involved, thanking Daily Wire for getting involved, and 551 00:39:52,519 --> 00:39:57,719 for changing their minds. You know, Rotten toomatoes dot com, Stephen Abray 552 00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:02,679 himself requested people to go put negative reviews, like literally came from Stephen Avery. 553 00:40:02,679 --> 00:40:06,800 So our score went from like ninety four percent to sixty eight percent, 554 00:40:07,119 --> 00:40:09,840 and it's climbing. And when I go to Rotten Tomatoes and I read all 555 00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:14,920 the comments, so it's like either five stars or one star. And when 556 00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:20,880 I take out those one stars, it's all fives. Like there's no fours, 557 00:40:21,039 --> 00:40:24,199 there's no threes, it's five or one. And I read these comments 558 00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:29,280 and I just am so, so so happy when they comment and they say 559 00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:30,679 things like I got a message from a guy the other day that said, 560 00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:35,639 I'm a distant relative with Teresa's I met her twice in my life. Thank 561 00:40:35,679 --> 00:40:38,320 you for doing this for her and her family. Thank you for setting the 562 00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:43,400 record straight. And that's just that is why I did it. That's why 563 00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:47,000 I did all this was for people to be redeemed and for Teresa's legacy to 564 00:40:47,039 --> 00:40:51,719 be that maybe now they can just let her rest in peace. And you 565 00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:53,480 know, the family knew we did it. I never followed up with them 566 00:40:53,559 --> 00:40:55,440 or talked to them, but they did know we did it, and I 567 00:40:55,480 --> 00:41:00,400 knew that this would not be easy for them. I hope that they at 568 00:41:00,519 --> 00:41:05,559 least got more support this time around, but you know, I don't know, 569 00:41:05,679 --> 00:41:07,639 but sometimes you have to. You have to do that as long as 570 00:41:07,679 --> 00:41:10,719 you can honor the victim in the best way possible. And I think that 571 00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:14,599 we did, or we really did try to, because that's what it is 572 00:41:14,639 --> 00:41:19,280 all about. She died and she's the victim, period. But yeah, 573 00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:22,280 other interactions have just been I've been reading more than anything. And it's funny. 574 00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:29,519 There was a group of very i would say six I think truthers that 575 00:41:29,599 --> 00:41:34,360 were pretty high up in that follow play group that recently sent a letter to 576 00:41:35,199 --> 00:41:38,920 follow a play or put a letter in their follow play discard channel that said 577 00:41:39,679 --> 00:41:46,760 the victim a murder changed our minds. We're done supporting this killer or this 578 00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:51,960 murder rapist, whatever, We're done supporting him the real victim. And they 579 00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:54,639 did it on October thirty first, on Halloween, the day she died, 580 00:41:55,039 --> 00:42:00,400 and they all walked away and said, you guys are we're done. We're 581 00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:04,639 down here. We've been fooled and you guys should admit it too. But 582 00:42:04,679 --> 00:42:07,960 we've been fooled. And I think more or less they doubled down the Foul 583 00:42:08,039 --> 00:42:12,159 Play group. They just they they're firm on it, and that's okay, 584 00:42:12,280 --> 00:42:15,480 that's their view. But I admire the people who had the courage to do 585 00:42:15,559 --> 00:42:21,880 that. I think it's really hard to admit that you were fooled, as 586 00:42:21,960 --> 00:42:25,039 we say, and I think you're really brave if you're able to do that, 587 00:42:25,079 --> 00:42:30,239 because I'm telling you, the people that do switch, Wow, does 588 00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:36,760 they come down hard on those people, like they're so offended by the fact 589 00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:40,559 that these people would change their minds that they're they are there's a shot just 590 00:42:40,559 --> 00:42:45,400 what I read on Twitter, I'm just blown away that they just are not 591 00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:47,800 allowed to have that opinion, that they're not allowed to change their minds. 592 00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:52,480 And that's sad. That's really sad. Do you think, and this is 593 00:42:52,840 --> 00:43:00,159 a personal question, it ever verges on like being almost too addictive or unhealthy 594 00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:06,719 online. Not in general, but just in interactions online between truthers anti truthers. 595 00:43:07,159 --> 00:43:08,199 And I don't mean that about you. I just mean it about like 596 00:43:08,280 --> 00:43:15,239 as human beings psychologically. Is there something about having these conversations on Twitter Reddit 597 00:43:15,360 --> 00:43:22,679 that lends to kind of unhealthy discourse? Oh? Absolutely, I think in 598 00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:27,679 general anything, there's so many things I can think of off the bat that 599 00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:30,079 go on, even in the news, that people are just so firm in 600 00:43:30,159 --> 00:43:36,079 their beliefs and they just they do become addicted. But what I've found, 601 00:43:36,119 --> 00:43:40,840 and we've never done a study or any type of research on the people that 602 00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:44,960 are in foul, but a lot of them that I've talked to are people 603 00:43:45,039 --> 00:43:50,159 who really are looking for you kind of said this earlier too, but they're 604 00:43:50,239 --> 00:43:52,800 kind of looking for meaning. They want to be part of something. And 605 00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:53,639 I say this in the film