Hello, everyone, and welcome to the show. I'm Martin Willis your host,
and thank you for being here. It's a Sunday afternoon and I really
appreciate it. And our guest is in Germany and it's eight o'clock at night.
That's why he's on now. And I wanted to get this ahead of
our regular show, which is usually on Tuesdays, and we'll be next week
and so not next week, but the following week Jack Silwell will be on,
so this this podcast will be coming out of the normal time on Tuesday
nights. And again I appreciate everyone that touch has shown up on the door
here on YouTube. And I'm really excited about our guests because I kept hearing
about this website the debrief and it was mysterious and launching on November thirtieth,
and we're all waiting in the UFO field, a bunch of people who are
emailing me from Australia, you name it, from everywhere. So the day
comes on the thirtieth and the website is down. I'm going to talk to
him about it. It crashed, and it crashed over and over again.
A lot of anticipation on this, so I like the way I heard Tim
put this, uh, disruptive technology. That's that's one of the things I
want to report on UM and I think we're going to see more and more
of that as time goes on. And UFO was a part of that.
That's kind of what they're they're reporting on UM. And you know, there's
there's been some harsh critic on some things, for instance, a Milar possible
Milar balloon on one of the one of the articles. And he makes no
bones about he's putting the information out there. He's not an expert. It's
up to the experts to check it out and come up with answers if they
would like. He's not saying it's a UFO like he's more or less saying
what is it that type of thing. But anyway, we have a blog
over on our website and that's Podcast UFO and it is called as Soon as
I Find It. These are a weekly by Charles Lear. He also does
an audio blog that comes out usually on Friday's. Ironically, the name of
the blog is called UFOs and Balloons and there's a lot of stories about UFOs
and balloons going all the way back to the nineteen forty eight. The Gorman
dog Fight and there's some Project Bluebook balloon cases and things like that. It's
very interesting. Another great blog by Charles Lear and so I also want to
thank everyone that supports a show. Anyone can do that over at podcast ufo.
You can see the link to Patreon and for two dollars or more a
month or yearly payments, you can do that as well. I appreciate everyone
that does support the show. I appreciate everyone that listens to the show.
And coming up in a few weeks right before Christmas, so I'm going to
give out some T shirts. And we do have T shirts and merchandise available
on our website as well, and that's basically under merchandise tab on the website.
So our guest, I am going to let him introduce himself. He's
a very interesting guy. Again, he's in Germany. He's been in law
enforcement for over sixteen years and here he is. Tim McMillan. Welcome to
the show, Tim, Hey Martin, how's it going there? Yeah?
Really glad? Really glad you were uh, you know, you wanted to
come on the show and talk about what you're up to, because you certainly
caused quite a stir when that website went up. Yeah, no, thanks
for having me. One idea was that to launch it with you know,
on a time schedule like that, I was brilliant. It just kind of
came about it, and I don't want to you know, there's there was
a lot of moving parts. So this, uh, the debrief is really
the brain child of me. Um my good buddies m J Banias and Mica
Hanks, who I think you're You're familiar with both on my show a few
times. Sure, yeah, see I got to catch up to them then
es muchly my first um but we were good friends. We're good friends outside
of uh, you know, professional life and uh you know, Mike is
a professional podcaster. MJ was working advice and popular mechanics with me writing and
U we kind of got you know, we in talking and chatting and everything.
We would get frustrated because and ironically enough, we didn't want to just
cover the UFO subject. But when we did cover the UFO subject, we
get frustrated because, you know, especially there were a lot of articles that
me and MJ teamed up together with or you know that I did myself,
maybe went out through vice somebody else, and we put a lot of effort
into it, and frankly, there were straight news articles that if the subject
was anything but UFOs, you know, it would be completely normal, like
you know, they would be you know, important articles, but we would
turn them in and then we would when we finally see him published, they'd
have a splashy, punchy headline and uh, you know, like a picture
of Tom DeLong. You know, I remember doing an article on the Senate
Intelligence Committee and then you see your article on the there's you know, you
know Tom DeLong as UFOs. They're now being discussed in Congress and you're like,
so, uh, you know, we decided to do our own thing,
and uh, the kind of win to launch and all of that good
schedule stuff. We really this was supposed to be a soft launch, just
so you know, we're supposed to be working out all the kinks from the
you know, the first to December until January when we really try to push
the site. But things, as you alluded to, took off, Ted
Ted Crazier. There's a little a little bigger than we expected, at least
in the first week, that's for sure. Did you have to change anything
about your your your server because your website kept crashing. Yep. No,
and that was the first two days actually, November thirtieth and December. First
we were good. Um it was Wednesday when I dropped the fast Movers article.
Uh yeah, no, we you know, there was more. We
got more traffic than we ever intended with that first article and the people coming
just flooding it instantly. So actually yeah, behind the scenes, um,
you know, people didn't realize it, but we were frantically. Uh.
We actually brought in a new another friend of ours, who's you know,
our computer whiz, our webmaster. Um, who was able to come in,
and that's Steve McDaniel by the way, the founder of sky Hub.
Um. Oh yeah, Steve's a great guy. Thank God bless him because
you know those last from from Wednesday on to about Saturday involved him and Mica
taking everything moving it on to a new server. And admittedly I'm not the
computer guy and so that's not easy. I've done that. Yeah, God
bless him because they they've got it zipping out. Now we could handle anything.
But yeah, those first days, um, they were rough. And
yeah, it was it was rough when especially when that the fast mover article
came out and you're like, ah, but nobody can get through. It
was just there was a point where we thought we were facing a denial of
service attack, not because of the UFO topic, but the day prior I
had actually written an article about the assassination of the Iranian nuclear scientists, and
so I was thinking, Oh, we're getting hit by Iran pasting us.
Yeah, and there was some slide evidence that that was going on. But
then we figured out there was some errors on our part and a lot of
traffic on everybody else's part. So luckily I think we've got it fixed now.
Yeah, Hey, if I I want to go into one of these
stories here, but before before we do one thing I like to do here,
and I think people like it. I'm not sure. But then it's
I like to hear about your background. I know you have a background of
law enforcement, but actually I want to know more about you and what you
know. How you became interested in this topic. I know it's one of
many, but you have an interest in but I'd like to hear that.
Sure. No, No, like long walks on the beach and uh,
everything I've ever done has either been by accident, and it all centers on
the fact that I am just captivated by mysteries. I love solving mysteries,
and so I've told people after very you know, coming very close to actually
going to rabbatical school, becoming a rabbi of all things, where the people
believe it or not. I was in college to be I couldn't decided I
want to be an astronomer or a research psychologist research cognitive psychologists, because I
thought those were the two biggest mysteries in the world, a human mind in
the universe. And so of course that translated into me going into law enforcement
at twenty one years old. And that was I actually just kind of shared
that recently on another show, But that was that was a result of two
friends I had grown up with where actually I was home for summer during college,
and uh, they were murdered during a home invasion. So it was
just really tragic event. Yeah, that made me decide to go on law
enforcement because I wanted to do something, and so still ended up finishing my
undergrad and tried to balance graduate school and policing. But that was a little
difficult, especially I got married and started having kids. But my kind of
niche and law enforcement. I did a little bit of everything. But I
was a violent crimes investigator, but my primary kind of focus was always I
stuck with my psychology background. So I was a behavioral analyst, intelligence criminal
intelligence analyst, which is a nice way of saying profiler. Now, I
was a certified profiler, and I used to teach classes at JUNK. I
was a certified instructor, all kind of focusing on interviews and interrogations, cognitive
psychology, all of this niggy neat little stuff like that. Until for about
sixteen years, close to seventeen years, I just had my fill and took
early retirement and worked for a year as an investigator and an intelligence analyst for
a private law firm for my wife, who's a kindergarten teacher for the Department
of Fence of all things. Got an opportunity for us to move to Germany,
um and so we kind of jumped to that. So I've been living
in Germany now for about a year and so now I just kind of work
from home, writing investigating full time now now working in the debrief. Do
you like Germany? Sure? Yeah, I know it's been a great experience.
We're, you know, about thirty minutes from France. Belgium or Luxembourg
in every direction. Wow, yes, yes, a lot of great.
Once the pandemic passes, I think it'll be a lot more fun because that's
exactly. Yeah. I've been like to talk to you. Thank you for
that all that. I'd like to talk to you about this article because I
knew this really this is where everybody was sending me right off the atum,
which which ended up this is what I told you off air. You know
that I liked about your Your response on this is you know, you're just
reporting this, You're not You're not saying this is definitely an unexplained UFO.
You're just saying this is a UFO at this at this point. And then
people right away said, hey, you know they figured out it was the
Batman balloon. Now I'm not sure if that's if they're one hundred percent right,
I don't know if they're one hundred percent right, What are your thoughts
on that? Sure? Well, and I mean, honestly, the the
origins for that article and that photo started the day before with the fast Movers
article. Um and uh. I don't know if you had a chance to
read that one, but that one, that one was always the big piece
that was going to come out. It was the fast Movers article. Uh,
and that's the one where I reported on. If you're looking at the
site, you probably have to go up there to defense the little tab at
the top and um, scroll down and you should be able to find um.
Sorry, no, no, no problem, you can find it in
there. That was here we go, all right, right there, there
you go. If you scroll down, let's see. Yeah, there you
go. The green one that's mover is transmitted. Yeah. So the origin
of the photo was was this article. I mean, this was the big
one that I was working on. This is where I have you found out
about a half a year ago about the first intelligence memo that have been published
and release to the intelligence community, and then subsequently found at about the second
one shortly after it was released in September, along with getting the emails from
the Joint chiefs of Staff, and so we never intended to publish the photo
at first. And in fact, you know, people have been confused about
this, but we actually didn't have a releasable copy of that photo until this
first article was published. I you know, any copies that we had or
any materials that we had beforehand were all to verify the credibility and back up
and substantiate these intelligence reports that have been issued out, but they weren't releasable
stuff. It was always for just verifying that the information we'd be reporting on
was correct, because unfortunately, you know, everybody that I spoke to,
they are active, you know, they weren't supposed to be talking. They
aren't active members of the Intelligence Committee, are Intelligence community or Department of Defense,
and they or you know, the information they were describing were housed on
various classified systems and so they weren't supposed to talk about it. So we
didn't have anything we should share it. But then the following day after this
article was published, and this is the one that actually crashed us. Initially,
I think we got we got things fairly working, fairly good. But
that's next day when we released a photo. But after after initially publishing this
article, um a, you know, a civilian research UFO researcher messaged me
and uh, they shared a photo of a photo of that balloon photo that
we released and said, hey, have you seen this. Well, at
that point, um in any bets that we had initially of stuff that we
wouldn't release in terms of that photo, we're off and so because it had
leaked to the wild obviously, and so then that that next morning, you
know, so by the time we got that, you know, within six
hours, we released a balloon the quote balloon photo and kicked off balloon gate.
I guess, yeah, And um, so what are we looking at
right now on the on the screen here? Sure? Now this video I
included in in that initial article. Frankly, I think is one of the
most fascinating videos that's kind of been forgotten about, our overlooked. This video
was initially shot in nineteen ninety three in over Nelli's range over a portion you
know, which famously known as Area fifty one, although this was not filmed
over what is technically Area fifty one. This is just the area. But
this video I was a I got a full this is the full twelve minute
copy of this video, and I got it from a good buddy of mine,
Nick Cook, wrote the Hunt for Zero Point out of the UK.
Good friend of mine and we had spoken last year and we were talking about
the tic TAC and all these things, and he said, you know,
there's a video from the nineties. I remember that kind of reminds me of
this, and a year later he ended up finding the copy and send it
to me. Now, this video, I think a very small portion of
this video was actually shown on Inside Edition, I think in the mid nineties,
about thirty second clip of it. But but the full entire twelve minute
version of this video, there are not a lot of copies of around there.
I think I may have found one other on YouTube. But since we
had one, I uploaded it and wanted to enter you wanted to include it
in this article because they it's interesting, you know, I think the story
behind how it came about, and I acknowledge in the kind of comments that
in the YouTube there the video is they seem dubious. They were. You're
looking at a recording of a screen monitorum by a mobile radar station in Nelli's
range, actually two separate ones. About the midway point of this video,
it'll switch to the second radar station. However, what we're looking at I
don't think has ever I've not seen any satisfactory explanation. And if you go
to the the comment section of the video, there's some great links. There
was a gentleman whose name escapes me at the moment and I apologize who did
a phenomenal analysis of it going back to the mid nineties and so we linked
all of his work. But I'm not aware of anybody being able to kind
of identify what this is. And for me, one of the things that
really intrigues me is some of the movements by the object, and especially I
think when you first cut it on you might have noticed, you'll you'll think,
initially, you know, there you go, you see how it just
jumps around. Yeah, that's not consistent. That's not normal what you're seeing
there, you know, And it would be hard for like a drone to
do something. I mean, I first thought is it looks like a drone.
I know, this is the nineteen nineties. But then for anything to
move like that unless it's a camera that's moving, you know. Sure,
I thought it was the camera at first. And some of the angles were
the where the background is a little clearer, you can actually kind of set
your position on the background. And at one point there's a shot where the
camera you can actually see the mountains of Nelli's range in the background, and
um, so it's not the camera that's jumping around there. And it's fascinating
to me. I mean, it reminds me this was probably one of the
most compelling interviews when I early started getting interested in investigating this stuff, when
I spoke with one of the pilots during the Nimis incident, one of the
Commander Fravers wingman who hasn't come forward. Oh really, the actually spoke to
that person, yeah, and had great conversation and she uh, you know,
one of the things in fact, she was she was willing to go
on the record and come out, but the Navy she's still actively in the
US Navy, and so they shot it down. But um, which is
unfortunate because I think if people, uh, you've often heard her referred to
in as the story has been told now as the new girl and these types
of things. But I wish people could get an idea of what her her
background is, or you know, her career from two thousand and four to
today, because it wasn't that her first flight though, or something like that,
something crazy. She was. She was about she was about a year
out of flight school. That was her first time being attached. You know,
the process to be a fighter pilot's pretty lengthy, and this was her
first attachment to Oh I see the operational fleet and getting ready for her deployment.
But I mean she uh, you know, she she does. She
she wants to reserve her anonymity since the Navy won't come out, so I
won't give too many detals. But she's done some pretty incredible things and including,
but not limited to, and this is no jab at Commander Fravran because
I think he's a great guy. But out of that whole crew, um,
she is the only one who has actually spent boots on the ground time
in a war zone for over a year. She was an Afghanican and so
she's a very very accomplished pilot. And so for her testimony here years later,
it's very compelling. But Shell, I think she told me that really
unnerved her the most when they encountered that object. And I don't think it's
something that Commander Fravver saw or it's definitely not something that he's hit on,
as you see there where it kind of jumps um was that when she first
saw the tic TAC it was bouncing around like, you know, almost like
a house fly or a ping pong. Like, Yeah, in a way,
it's funny you said that, because in a way that's what this thing
looked like that we were looking at. It almost looks like a flag would
would do. Yep, yep, you know that's that's exactly exactly. That's
why I included it. That's why I think that that video personally, I
think could be an extreme. It could be very much like the NIMBS case
where you've got one that leaked out many years earlier and we're kind of just
discredited and people didn't pay attention to it. But you could be looking at
something very compelling because you can see there it's jumping and right there, and
you can see the horizon didn't move. That's not the camera that yeah,
um, I mean that's you know, like I said, my background's in
a lot of behavioral investigation and um so I assess things kind of from a
human behavior standpoint. And when you're designing aerospace platforms, you're designing new technology.
It doesn't matter whether it's an autonomous drone or if you're designing a new
stealth aircraft. It's all going to function in something that makes sense for you
or human beings because that's who's designing it. So when you see these kind
of nonsensical movements, it doesn't exactly make sense. It doesn't comport with with
what we could design something. So for me, that's always been very very
interesting. M yeah itself, that's one I think we need to look at
more, right, Yeah, yeah, that's they that that is one that
could really use some analysis on this one. And this particular thing that we're
showing here. Now, this is what I heard about from so many people
was, hey, there's this was going around and the intelligence well quote unquote
viral in the intelligence department as a not this is a this is not the
original picture. This is uh someone, it's a recreation, a rendition of
what was seen. But from what I understood, this thing, now correct
me if I'm wrong, supposedly came up out of the Atlantic or the ocean.
I'm not sure what Atlantic, Pacific or whatever, but came up out
of the ocean and the pilot start took a picture of it, and then
it moved away like vertically on its side. Is that is that kind of
Is it close? That's well, that's it's close. The yes, And
I want to make sure that everybody's abundantly clear because we've had so much confusion
about this unfortunately, but um, this is a rendition of a photo that
was included in an intelligence assessment provided by the UAP Task Force UM in late
twenty twenty, so a couple of months ago. But this is not the
other photo that we release the day later. UM, And indeed you're you're
accurate? There is that Uh you know, I was told by multiple people
that uh, you know what there was, ah, a triangular object with
rounded, blunted corners just like what's shown there. Dave Batty of the NEMTS
encounters who did that film, has done phenomenal work research and the event is
who who did that recreation for me? Um? But exactly like what you
see there, so three bright white lights in each corner, rounded blunted owners.
And indeed the objects supposedly emerged from underneath the ocean. In fact that
that recent intelligence assessment PORT was almost exclusively pertaining to trans medium or underwater vehicles,
you know, seeing that the UP task Force was actually very much focused
on this idea that potentially, you know, UFOs or UAP may have not
just a water connection, but this may be some sort of transient staging area.
You know that there's a lot more going on in our ocean than we
realize and yeah, I mean everybody who saw that assessment, everybody who saw
that photo was extremely taken back, and I thought it was just really really
compelling for me and my side, because that's what I've always told people.
I've never actually written an article about UFOs other than I did write one in
Vice News about Standing Freeman's archives because I thought Standing was a great guy.
I thought it was great that they were going through the process of archiving all
of his materials. But everything else and my real interest has always been national
security in defense. Now I've written plenty of stories that happen to be national
security and defense stories that happened to involve your FOS, but that's kind of
where my bread and buttery is in where I'm most comfortable is in the kind
of military and intelligence community. And so that article went viral, I mean,
excuse me, That photo and that assessment went viral amongst the intel community,
which is really really incredible, and that was everybody said that that it
was incredible that it would have been disseminated like that, and it were stunned
because you you know, when you send something like that out as well,
this is going out to analysts across all sorts of different agencies. It doesn't
mean that they're necessarily part of the task force, so that they're even going
to do anything of the task force. You just put it out so that
analysts working in different intel areas, UM, are aware of different issues that
are being looked at. So in place, you come across something, you
know, maybe you're you're working counter terrorism and you happen to pick up some
signals chatter about somebody talking about seeing a UFO, you know in Afghanistan.
You where you might just discount that. Now you flag it and pass it
along. UM. That's the whole reason these assessments go out like this.
UM. But they were all I mean, there was you know, there's
there's neighborhoods in especially around like Santelli, Virginia area, in Maryland area where
uh, you know, everybody in the neighborhood, all your neighbors work somewhere,
nobody really works where they say they work, or nobody talks about what
they really do. UM. But they're all you know, somebody's either working
for an intelligence or military contractors are working directly for the government. And I
mean I had friends saying that, and all of my neighbors are talking about
it. So it's really funny because it's one of those things you're talking about
a community, very internal community. So this is not where normally the public
might hit Facebook or Twitter and start, hey, guess what I just saw
at work. They can't do that. But the same level of kind of
viral um new sharing went out amongst the intelligence community and still has. Frankly,
and so, how do you hear about something like that? Well,
I mean it's not it's not top is it top secret? I mean,
see is it supposed to not be shared? It's classified. They're on classified
classified and well they're on classified systems, and uh, everybody was pretty cautious.
Nobody nobody shared anything with me that was inherently classified. What happens is
these systems themselves are classified, and in fact intelligence reports if you ever see
them, they have a little marker in each of them, each paragraph where
it will say U S or TS, which lets you know, so you
can have a you have a classified memo that has unclassified paragraphs or top secret
paragraphs, that type of thing. The wide distribution of this it was not,
it was not top secret. So uh, you know, I found
out about it ironically enough, because some people called me and asked me,
I kind of grew up. You know, my uncle worked for the Joint
Chiefs of Staff, and yeah, I have a lot of family members who
are in kind of the intel or military community, and so I kind of
grew up in that world. To be honest with you, and still had
you know, through just law enforcement and we're doing uh, we did a
lot. I did a lot with the federal government and everything. So I
have a lot of friends out there, let me put it that way.
And um, when this stuff first started coming out, people called me because
they know they knew I had reported in Popular Mechanics and Vice on this subject
for the past year or so. And it was very interesting because, especially
with the first memo, it explicitly said it gave the prosaic list of things
that potentially UAP could examine or could represent, you know, everything that you
can think of that we all would But it also explicitly said that the idea
that these are extraterrestrial or non human is being explored. And that really freaked
some people out absolutely. Yea, as I got calls from people's asking me,
so pauls, from people I've known for a long time that work in
these communities where they're not supposed to talk, asking me, hey, do
you know more about this? I think it's and it was kind of yeah,
no, no, that's one hundred percent truth too, and I said,
well, it's news to me. And so there were definitely a lot
of people that talked outside of church. You might say, however, I
think everybody did so really responsibly. But it was truly based on the same
kind of fascination that I think captivates so many people to follow your foe subject
at all period. Is that you have a lot of people. And that's
the thing is that there's some misnomers about the intelligence community. You think it's
James Bond, or you think it's Jason Bourne. Um, it's a lot
of nerds at computers, I mean for the most part. And and so
these were people that this is you know, a lot of them maybe had
never even considered the subject besides just sci fi just interesting, you know,
the movie. But when this stuff comes across in their professional life, I
mean it's kind of like you as a as an antiques appraiser, Martin,
if somebody handed you, you know, like, hey, I've got this
piece of the rosweld wreckage. Can you assess it? And you're like,
oh, this is real, Like you know, like this realization is something
that you wouldn't have expected in that facet of your life. And so a
lot of people were compelled by it. Um And and I just leaned a
lot on my career in law enforcement investigations and just relationships that I've had through
both professional and personal connections over the years, long before I started interviewing or
discussing anything with you atos to just that's been my focus the last two years,
is digging in, like what is the government no or what's going on
right now? And so I've been very fortunate to kind of gain some some
good relationships um inside those those areas that are examining them right now. So
that's really awesome. That's a that's a great contact. By the way,
I did get I wasn't a house in Massachusetts that had a piece of the
plane that Orville and Wilbur Right flew called the right Flyer, your first original
plane that actually flew in case in plastic in their living room and they can
you appraise that? Wow? So I had to try to figure out what
the heck that was worth, I forget. Wow, that's a tough one.
So I told the people in chat that they could post questions in caps,
so please do, and we have a number of them that came in.
So this one first up. Do you think the real photo of this
will get released? I think that's the question I had too. Sure,
Yeah, you know, I think it's a question on everybody's mind and everybody
to ask me. And this's the tough spot that I'm in, is that,
just like he said, everything I reported on there, you know,
I'm one hundred percent comfident everything we did. I don't want to get into
the incredible amount of detail that we did to validate sources and just make sure
that we were sharing accurate information. However, none of it was official.
You know, this was not an official release by the Department Offense. This
is this is this is Watergate. This was you know, us going out
like Woodward and Bernstein tracking people down. And so unfortunately, I don't,
you know, the only photo that we had that we could have released,
we did so immediately as soon as we can release it, and so there
isn't any photo that we have that we could release. M I certainly hope
that it will get released. I certainly hope that. You know, I'd
be lying if I didn't say a part of my goal and when I reported
on it was to try to force that issue a little bit. You know,
once it gets out there, more people can put pressure on it.
And yeah, and they may, they may do that. And let me
ask you this, what if you had to speculate why this would remain classified
and not released if that's what it is, If this photo is actually classified,
do you think that's for security purposes? Why that? I mean,
do you think that's why the case? But not yes, but not for
the reasons that I think a lot of people realize. And it's simply because
if you're talking about and I think there's a you know, just a wealth
of literature that's already in existence or eyewitness testimony, you name it, where
you have people that have seen these objects UFOs that are able to enter different
airspaces, including some that are just uber restricted, like our nuclear weapons facilities,
with impunity. I mean, nobody can stop them, nobody can do
anything with it. We don't even have op sex to respond to this type
of stuff. And so what you're talking about there as you're talking about it
in unmitigated vulnerability to national defense, and it's a it's a situation where in
the national defense world you have no actionable intelligence, is what it means,
you don't know how to stop it. And therefore, anything that is an
unmitigated risk in national security you don't talk about it, period because it not
just because you know not that that means that UFOs could attack us, but
rather you don't talk about your own vulnerabilities because they could be exploited by terrestrial
adversaries. And so I think that that's one of the reasons that you see
a lot of the secrecy to some degree, especially when you're talking about stuff
like this, because it was my understanding, and that's the thing is that
no one shared any Everything that was shared with me, whether it was by
photo itself or in description, was materials. And in fact that that photo
there is what's called you know, for official use only, so it's not
even classified. But you can't classify something he wasn't taken with a government system,
so you can't protect sourcers or methods. But I think right now,
and I was able to find out that the UAP Task Force has been given
what's called OCA original classic original classification authority, which means now they can classify
anything they want to. Whether the people who filmed it or took it classified,
its irrelevant. They have the authority to classify themselves. And so I
think there's a lot of times that they're kind of making, you know,
liberal use of some of the requirements that are in that you have to have
to classify anything. You can't just willy nilly classify whatever you want. But
there is a kind of a there is a standard under the executive where our
thirteen two fifty six that says you can classify intelligence activities or foreign hardware.
And so even if it's when we're going to define foreign as not ours to
be a broad defination, you could classify. But I think I share the
sentiment that probably the person who asked that question has probably you have and a
lot of people, which is there needs to be a middle ground here,
like where can we reach a middle ground where I don't I respect the fact
that you can't share certain things because they pose national security risk, our enemies
exploit them. You don't want to give away different capabilities that you have,
that kind of thing. I get that, but I think that the that's
always been why I've kind of pushed on this area is I think there has
to be a middle ground for me. It's not always it's really not.
It's been about UFOs as much as I think that, I do believe the
American public has a right to be informed about the activities of government. And
we know now because it's been announced that there's a formal task force there,
and so, you know, and in a democracy, government functions by the
informed consent of the public, and the public can't make any kind of real
informed consent when they're unformed in this issue, and so I think good or
bad, you know, it requires that. And so it's always been I
have joked with both Pentagon spokespersons, both people who spoke to me on background,
people that in this and saying, you know, this is a it's
a very weird system. That is how kind of democracy he works. Where
I'm operating under the First Amendment to try to get info, you're trying to
keep info secret. But yet we're both trying to uphold the Constitution, like
we're both part of what makes it all work. Um, And so I
think, I mean, I definitely hope that you know, I have expressed
that to people, Uh, as high as one could imagine. Well,
not as high as the president, how about that? But but in below
that I've expressed that to people. Yeah, I thought the presidents was as
high too, right, something, I'm gonna get it. I'm gonna get
email for that. Yeah, you're gonna get me. Now. I'll stay
away from politics. But I understand exactly where you're going from there, sir.
But I've told people that I think that you you know, I think
that if you I've had great conversations with tons of people who aren't in the
quote UFO community, So professionals m from all walks of life, some of
them Harvard John Hopkins professors. One of them, who is a very distinguished
individual who's an epidemiologist, has been called on to quite frequently because of COVID.
That people wouldn't be surprised about about this subject. And so I think
there's interest in it. It's not sillier taboo that people want to hear.
And I think that there's a good middle ground there. I think that the
idea of examining it at an official level is significant, but you've got to
get this middle ground where we know what's going on. You know, best
example I give is you, I don't need to know how China tried to
hack into a computer. I don't need to know how you caught them.
Okay, these may be all things that you need to protect so you can
catch somebody again. But I do know enough that that is a potential threat.
So when the government says, hey, we need to invest x amount
of money in cybersecurity, as an informed citizen, I can go now,
that's a great idea, that's a good plan, because I trust this and
this and this topic. I think it's very unfortunate because I think that if
there was a little more transparency and kind of just openness there, I think
you would see more people say hey, okay, you know, I'm I
think we need to examine it, you know, and there would be less
ridicule. Yeah, yeah, all great stuff. Really interesting. So here's
another question here, Um this Lee thought that pilots cannot carry mutile phones on
military maneuvers. Is this not the case? And thanks to them, keep
up the good work, ultimatetioned. Well, thank you, thank you.
Lee. Yes, no, I'll be honest with you. I can't speak
with authority on that, and I haven't really investigated what's the policy on that,
other than I will say, you know, I came from a very
a very a profession was very rigid, and there's policies for everything, and
just like the DoD, so you have policies for policies. Um. And
one of the things they teach you in command college when you when because I
was a lieutenant before I retired, So you go to command college and it's
funny because there's all these there's all these rules and policies, and the first
thing they teach you is that there's always an informal policy that superstedes your policy,
which means how things really operate and how they have to function correctly.
Because if you were so ridigated in that and they teach you as a commander,
don't you know if there's a no cell phone in the cockpit rule but
listen, guys to get in their pocket or whatever, like, are you
going to pat down your pilots every flight? Is that what's really important?
And so I don't have the actual answer other than it doesn't shock me that
you would have pilots that bring cell phones or different things. Uh, there's
plenty of instances where you can go to Instagram or YouTube, or you see
pilots that bring um GoPro cameras, and you know that I don't. To
me, there's what is the distinction between a go pro and a cell phone?
Unless we're all thinking, wait a minute. You know when I fly
commercially, they always tell me turn off my phone or you know, I'm
going to crash this multimillion dollar commercial jet if my phone's not on airplane mode.
Um. These are by the way, right, Yes, the pilots,
they just all had to do with money and whatever making money on the
cell phone services, right, Yes, And so I to answer that,
you know, it's a long way of saying I don't know the ideal policy,
but the idea that pilots bring their cell phones or go pros or anything
of that light incock pits. Yeah, absolutely does happen. It doesn't surprise
me or shock me. And I certainly could see that. Yeah, has
Tim had Have you had an eye on either of these two report memos floating
around? Do you know what this particular question means? Yes? I mean,
so I guess you're asking me, did I actually physically see any of
the intelligence assessment reports? Um? Thing, I'll say, is that everything
we reported on is is one hundred percent accurate. I have no concerns qualms
about that. You know that eventually, whether it's through freedom of information request,
you know, if even if it's classified and it takes twenty five years
for classification review, no doubts that that will come out beyond what we reported
on there. And in terms of like, well, what did you see
or what do you have and all of that, I can't really answer all
of that because it's just like we said that, we are talking about stuff
that could get people's careers in trouble, and it was frankly as a crime.
You know, Reality Winner a couple of years ago when she leaked the
actual memos and the intercept printed those memos, you know, with an hour
of her then printing those memos, Reality Winner was arrested. And I just
saw Friday. She lost her appeal and she's got six years in prison,
five years in prison, and so um, you know, I have to
also be very caut because whenever people don't realize this, but but you know,
in a journalistic capacity, when you agree to deal with sources under condition
of anonymity, the first thing you have to do is say, well,
why they have to have a valid reason. And although these instances we understood
the valid reason of why, but then once we agree with that, we
are legally bound. You know, there's Supreme Court case ruling that says we
can't. You know, we have to protect the identity of those sources,
and if those identity those sources got out, we would be held liable.
And so it's it's it's really tricky issue there. And I just so everybody
knows, I absolutely detest being cagy or evasive on anything. I try to
be as open and forthright on anything and everything as I possibly can. But
with that one, I'll just say that I'm confident in everything that we reported
on. Um. You know, it's funny you mentioned at the top of
the show that one of the things that bothered you were the titles, that
the headlines, that you'd write a great story in the headline would be bizarre,
Leslie Leslie Kane. I talked to her right after the December sixteen,
twenty seventeen article came out in The New York Times, and I said,
what's up with the title, And she says, oh my god, that's
the one thing they picked their own titles. It didn't, you know,
I think it was blessed something like black Auroras or I can't remember exactly what
it was, but she said that, and she said also on another article
she said, a really frustrator. So you're not alone in that. I
know Leslie and Ralph. I've spoken to them devi NS recently. The only
actually interviewed Ralph. I'm trying to get him back on again. He's a
great guy. Yeah, no, no, both of them are, and
so they feel the pain. I mean, that's just the nature of the
base when you work for an outlet or another publication, as the editors choose
their heads I used to get that all the time, you know. I
remember we're actually going back to the Stanton Friedman article that I did that in
the the the editor chose the headline. It was, you know, something
like, you know, they're in the process of archiving that the largest UFO
archive ever. You know, that was the thing, and so I got
people like, who says it's the largest? You know, people were mad
because they felt like they had a larger one. And I'm like, I
should have had the words putting saucer in it, because dam love to use
that right, you know, I was like, I didn't choose. You
don't choose the headlines. And and unfortunately, and I've kind of had to
learn this now as we run a media organization, is that it's regretful that
at times that you do have to try to get a headline that captures somebody's
attention, you know, But we try to avoid clickbait by any means.
So we try to take the topic but make it interesting. Um, next
question that comes up here, is there anything else from Fraver's wing woman actually
woman, Yes, anything else in terms of that I've found interesting is that
yeah? There, Like I mean, do we know everything that's out there
basically? Oh? Oh yeah, yeah, I feel like the gist of
it is. And um, I have actually I've you know, whether it's
in Popular Mechanics or other outlets that I've reported. I think somewhere I've pieced
together different pieces of the interviews that I've had, whether that I shared everything
that was important that I think hadn't been reported before, including that kind of
bouncing around like a like a ping pong ball. And in fact, for
me, you know, if you don't mind me getting really nerdy for you,
Martin but in cognitive psychologist me, that's something that's very fascinating because in
order to actually I mean, this goes into like when people go, oh,
it's secret technology, and I'm going, yeah, but there's just list
I can give you down. I'm not saying it's not, but we have
to overcome and one of those would be the flash flicker rate. And people
don't never think about this, but our brains, you know, we perceive
our environment by a flash flicker rate of about sixty flashes per second. That's
how we judge time, that's how reality is for us. A housefly has
a much much, much much higher flash flicker rate, and so people the
house five flies all around and darts all around because it's nuts. Actually the
housefly literally is working in a perennial kind of matrix world where everything's going we
move much slower to the house fly because he has a higher flash flicker rate,
so or something. Yeah, yeah, and so these objects bouncing around.
For me, I'm going, well, that means that's something that either
artificially or biologically is able to process visually processed information at a much much much
exponentially higher rate than human beings. And that's incredible and so that you know
that key point there is something to always point out, but you know,
in terms of her and other things that you know. And I reported on
this in Popular Mechanics. I thought it was fascinating because I hadn't heard it
before I spoke with her. Is that she, you know, was invited
back up to the Pentagon at various times to speak with different people and was
shown stuff and said, is this what you saw? Is this what you
saw? Is this what you saw? In effort to kind of go down
the laundry list of different you know, classified systems that maybe they had that
aren't publicly known at least during those times maybe, And she said every time
it was like no. Um. You know, she expressed to me kind
of the frustration. She did testify in front of Congress and and she she,
you know, I hope I'm not getting her in trouble. I don't
think so. She didn't say this was off the record, but uh,
you know, she expressed frustration of during some of those testimonies because congressional leadership
looked at her and was like, well, what did you see? And
I thought she put it very poetically true, and she said, that's not
my job. You know, I have reported on what occurred. It was
not in my wreckie or a recognition book. So it is not an aircraft,
both foreign or domestic, that we recognized. I have said everything I
had to say in terms of what it was. I don't know, like
that's somebody else's job. And um, but I think that, yeah,
it is interesting to see at that high of a level, the same thing
that I think a lot of UFO and this is everywhere civilian wives go through
the same thing where people are like, yeah, yeah, but what was
it was probably a plane or maybe it was a seagull or you know,
a dangling peanut. Um, always trying to fit it in the box,
you know, and I think, you know, I had my personal sighting.
It was outside of my box, and it's like really caught my attention,
Like what the heck is this? You know that that that type of
thing, and I think that's what happened. And yeah, um, So
while we're at the slow he will we'll get back to the questions. Um
when we come back, we're gonna just take a two minute break. Um.
And by the way, talking about getting nerdy, each house flies eyes
pair of eyes have three to six thousand symbolize. They're called Yeah like what
they see, they see like a million you know. Absolutely. I'm so
happy to hear you say that because I was involved in some that research with
a flash flicker rate of flies where you realize, holy cow, the fly,
you know, possess this thing. So yeah, usually people like what
so now, kudos Martin. We need to hang out more often. We
need to get a beer and hang out right, yeah, un zoom like
everyone's doing. So we're going to run into to break out and what's it's
gonna be two minutes for everyone in this This is music by he's written music
form for the show. It's Carrie Lloyd White House in Ireland and he's written
some nice music. This one in particular is called black Eye Children. Black
Eyed Children. Wow, that was peppy, wasn't it. Yeah? I
woke me up over here. That was good. Yeah, some really cool
music for movies and things. He's really great, guys. I've been in
touch when I first started this, uh this show, so welcome back everyone.
We have Tim McMillan and all the way from Germany and he's talking about
the debrief dot Org. Make sure you do check that out. You're not
going to crash it anymore. Now we've got things worked out now, Yeah,
I know. I moved to this this show this My show website became
so I had so much traffic on it that I ended up having to put
it on its own designated server. And it took over a year for them
to straighten things out. And then my website website got hacked last February,
lost fifteen hundred page just and oh wow, but I don't care. It's
it's simple now. Yeah. Yeah, Um, so I would like to
pop up another question because I saw that we have a bunch of questions coming
in and sure, let's see right here, Um, unidentified wants to know
this is a Lewis and uh, he wants to know this first photo that
was leaked, Um was let's see confirming, But I mean that was not
actually leaked, was it the photo? I mean, the rendition was something
Dave Baby made up correctly, I think he's a photo. Actually no,
unless unless what's being discussed there is the the photo we published the following day.
Um, you know, for for me, yes, I mean these
were you know, we were used, you know, in connection with other
things to verify the information related to those intelligence assessment reports. However, I
understand that, YEA, other than me telling you, here's what different sources
said, who unfortunately I can't name because it would cost them their jobs or
say how those were connecting to the reports. Um, I can understand how
anybody would go, yeah, but this doesn't prove anything, and I respect
that for me. You know, we published that photo as soon as we
could, and this is I've stood behind it. What is shown in that
photo, I don't know. I truly don't know. I can, you
know, much like so much in this topic, I can find pros and
cons or points and counterpoints to every argument that's made about it. But I
can say with one certainty that it was a UAP task Force photo or a
photo that was given to them. It was a UAP task Force photo that
was included in an intelligence assessment portfolio that was provided to the different analysts.
The background and information on that particular event and when she was captured actually wasn't
discussing in the assessments that I'm aware of or that I was told about.
So the information behind that is unknown. You know, I don't even have
anybody you know, that had seen those assessments that could give me more details
on that event. And so for me, yes, you know, that
was the big thing, and that's why we published. And a lot of
people were like, why would you do this? You ruined my life.
It looks like a balloon, And I was like, I never intended to
ruin anybody's life. My thing is totally about being objective and as upfront as
possible. And I know that didn't that sometimes it didn't make people happy because
they're like, yeah, but it looks like a balloon. It's it's ruining
the UFO topic. And if I can respond to that, Martin, I
want because this is I think this is very important because I think people have
taken so much. They're putting so much into that photo. And you know,
it's like I said, when I was in policing, you and we
joked about this before we got on the air. I had people literally call
our agency call nine one one to report their cable being out or there somebody
their circuit breaker was blown. True story. I also was. You know,
the city that I worked in had a violent crime rate three hundred points
higher than the city of Chicago. It was very violent place. I worked
a lot of shootings, a lot of homicides, and so the spectrum of
crimes that we investigated, our calls that we looked into range from my cables
out to homicide murder. If you were to grab any one report, it
could have been the cable out or it could have been a homicide. But
either way, that one report is not going to be reflective of the totality
of work that we did. You're not going to get a good representation of
what we did as an agency or as in policing in general. And so
unfortunately, what we have is this one photo. It does not mean that
it's representative of everything that the USP Task Force has. And frankly I said
in the Fast Movers article, there's no doubt in my mind that because of
the wide distribution anything that was in fact top secret or in a higher classification
authority, because they were captured on systems that may be compartmentalized that type of
thing, that information would not have been disseminated. But the US government has
some really cool stuff and when it comes to reconnaissance, surveillance and all sorts
of stuff. So, uh, you know, I feel I could say
with a degree of high confidence that there's there's better data available to them.
And I always point to if you kind of just want to use Bayesi and
logic here and just do abductive logic of known information. The the email exchange
that we printed in that fast Mover article between the Vice Joint Chiefs of Staff,
where you have the Vice Vice Chief of the name V recommending to the
Vice Chief of the Air Force. He's saying, I recommend you get this
briefing I just received on unidentified aerial phenomenon no ambiguity. He spells it out
and acknowledges the Secretary of the Navy received that. For anybody who's not been
in the military or has never been in the Pentagon world, I can tell
you these are the highest, like these are the tip of the spear.
These are the highest individuals in the United States military. You don't waste their
time with balloons. And you sure don't have one of them who's only seen
a balloon photo recommend that his counterpart received the same briefing. And you know
I was only able to get those because I was just trolling. I sent
out foyas phishing people's emails, saying I want you emails from these people that
contain the word UAP, and that's what I got back. So I think
a lot more emphasis has been put on the photo than maybe necessarily the emphasis
on that information or the emphasis that the article could included with with General Bruce
McClintock. But in terms of what we see in that photo right there,
you know, I think that I have seen some really good analysis done That
doesn't surprise me in the least. I have said. You know, I
spent years training investigators, both federal and local investigators, and yet there's times
when I see people in the UFO community who it doesn't matter what subject,
it just happens to be UFOs. They could be looking at homicide. There
is everybody as good of investigators is anybody ever worked with or trained really incredible
open source investigation. And so there's some great people out there that I think
will examine it. It is interesting. I know that the Batman balloon has
been a leading theory. I will be honest and just give my opinion.
I do not believe that is the leading theory. I do not believe that
it is a Batman balloon because I think what you see there when don't be
wrong when you're looking at what we're looking at right now on the screen.
If you put a Batman balloon next to it, it does look like it.
It looks like it fits it to a t. The shape. Yeah,
I was trying to I've just found what I was looking for and I'll
pull it up in just a second. Sure, but yeah, but it's
clear, I mean, is this thing is the Batman balloon on one side?
I mean you can see a little bit of some type of design,
but it doesn't look exactly like it. This is what, well, what
you're and what you're seeing there. And actually I've seen people do analysis where
they put it on top of it or right next to it, and you're
like, say they people can suddenly start to see Batman and what you're seeing
there, in my opinion, is something called paradolia, which is a know
exactly what you mean? Yeah, you make up what you It's actually goes
back to our survival instincts, yep, for for you know, well,
how we try to identify, you know, someone that's going to you know
eat us, you know predators, Yeah, yes, yep, you know
you you you and you can't help it. That's what I think it's important
when people are like, no, no, no, it looks just like
it. And I go, I understand that that's the way your brain works,
um, when you put it next to it. But but there are
mitigating factors um that that for me. And again, my thing is trying
to be as objective about it as humanly possible that I can say that's a
good theory. But and I'm perfectly content if that's what it turns out being.
But I don't know that there's been enough information. I don't know that
there's enough public information available to make that conclusion as is. And I think
we talked about this about the area. It is at an altitude that people
who saw the reports approximated at thirty five thousand feet. I think it's much
higher because you can see the curvature of the earth in that photograph right there.
Yeah, yeah, and you're you're right, And you know, at
seven thousand feet, most my large balloons will will blow up or they will
drop an altitude because they'll loose pressure. I think it's because they are actually
blowing up that they drop altitude. But I mean, yeah, I couldn't
find any records of anything going above you know, twenty thousand feet or even
ten thousand feet. I don't know. Have you looked into that part of
it? Yes? And not not in the commercial like the party balloon,
the Batman balloon. No, because I think as you're seeing the curvature of
the earth, and I encourage anybody you can just just Google search, just
Google image search thirty thousand feet in the air or forty thousand feet in the
air, and see what the view you see from the earth. And I
think you'll see that what we're looking at there is much more consistent with it
being forty between forty to forty five thousand feet in altitude above sea level.
Uh that F eighteen. In fact, you can tell by the model there,
it's it's an F eighteen F model, a double seat is um.
It has a maximum ceiling of fifty five thousand feet and so it can climb
um. And you know, I if it is a balloon, and and
don't get me wrong, just based on the photos itself, I think that's
saying it's a balloon. Is that's a great analysis. I wouldn't say that
anybody's wrong. Here we are on forty thousand feet in this field. Yeah,
I mean that's you can see the entire entire correct, correct, here's
forty thousand feet. You can't really see the curvature. And yet when you're
looking at this, you can see the slight curvature. Yeah, I mean
they may be maxing close to which in itself, you know it kind of
let's say it happens back to the tragic Mantel incident where he went altitude with
oxygen. Is that something caused these pilots to pursue it at intually close to
the maximum ceiling capacity of that F eighteen. That's that's you know. So
that's what I mean. There's there's mitigating factors, including the pilot testimony that
I think, no matter what it shakes out to be, is fine for
me. Like if it's a balloon, it's fine. And if that's the
case, I think it's also very important that people recognize that that doesn't dispel
any other information that the UAP tast words may have or has investigated, because
their mission has always been stated to investigate unknown aerial objects that are in military
airspace that pose a threat. If that is a balloon in those pilots couldn't
identify that is even a balloon is a threat, is a potential safety hazard.
And so it's interesting though, and I mentioned this to you off camera,
and I just haven't had a chance to kind of lay it out.
I mean, we haven't followed up on this because I think, especially when
you're trying to run a media out, it's imperative that you responsibly report and
follow ups. So instead of like coming out with every little thing that comes
up, we want to make sure we make the most accurate of praise or
we can. But we're still looking at it. And one of those involved
maybeing me getting copies of all nearly eleven thousand hazard reports filed by the US
Navy in the last sixteen years. You know, people may remember these has
reports where they're called has reps. The New York Times and The War Zone
reported on these in the spring where they had those who eight supposed up has
reps. Well, I got all of them, I said, I want
all of them. I don't want you to tell me what's up. I
want to look. And there were some balloon reports, and I will tell
you that there was significant investigation and work done even in these instances where you
had pilots who knew they saw a balloon, like they said, this is
a balloon. We encountered this balloon inter restricted airspace. Uh. Still,
a significant amount of investigation went into it, and there are no hazard reports
that coincide. Not only did they not coincide with the dates that this event
was a believed to have taken place, there are none that are filed over
the ocean involving balloons. So you know, at a minimum, that would
suggest to me that there it was at least some factors that led these pilots
to not believe this was a balloon. What those are I don't know yet.
And um, you know, it might sound strange to people because you're
like, dude, you just reported on all this stuff that's out of classified
systems and everything, but I am kind of I try to be very respectful
to people's professional careers and everything. So I'll be the first admit thus far,
I haven't started beating down doors at air wings, you know, trying
to give me the pilot who did this, give me the pilot who did
that, because I you know, in my experience and you're not. Usually
I do better when I come along way after the fact and say, hey,
I hear you've been hounded by a lot of people. I bet you
know, would you like to tell your story now? You know? And
hopefully people trust that, you know, I always try to be as honest
and objective as humanly possible whenever I tell somebody's story. But yeah, there
you go. That's a that's a has rep you have on the screen right
there. Yeah it's hard to read though, but yeah, just to so
someone can get an idea. There was another one, and I pop in
another question and just navigating through different things here, let's see this question is
this is going back to the Nellis video that we showed earlier. Did anyone
ever come up with a size for what they thought that might be? Yeah,
I don't know. You know, I don't have an answer to that
question. And I'll be the first to it. Um, I'm not a
quote unquote you a foe investigator as much as I'm an investigator. And I
you'll hear me say this a lot to people. Is I know my role.
I know what I know and I don't know what I don't know.
And I ask you to stand the lane. And so like my lane is
I have good you know, I've been able to get some good connections and
relationships with people. It's like the government who know a little about this or
a lot about this or something, And so I try to work to get
information that I came out of the public. But when it comes to those
real great analysis that people do, UM, I don know. I turned
to experts or either turned to the people who are are doing it, to
the people like um oh gosh, I knew, why is the name escaping
me? But for Moufon that does the video enoun Antonio Antonio, Yes,
we spoke before my article. UM. I talked to him about his USO
encounter and UM so people like that do a great job, and um,
I'll be looking for that from me and people have probably seen it in my
articles. I did it with the an article the pres published in January and
in Popular Mechanics about the Nimits event. I turned it over to experts.
I handed to somebody whose job it is. I mean that it's the same
thing I would have did as a police investigator. I'd hand it to the
forensics people. I'd hand it to whoever. UM to really assess that.
But I think it's a great question. I would love to see more analysis
done in that video. Frankly, yeah, yeah, yeah, And Mark
would be you know, it would think that he would really attack that one.
You know, the the SCU did a really good job on some on
some videos. It would be great to see them tackle that. So someone
from the UK has this question. PJ Hughes, who has also been on
the show, stated that the E TOO Hawkeye captured certain frequencies from the TIC
tac UM. Do you have any more information on that? I don't.
I've spoken to PJ about that, and um, you know, he's shared
as much as he can because those systems, you know, may carry you
know, that's that's the tough part with all of this is that none of
these systems were designed to hunt UFOs. They were designed for other military purposes,
and so there's stuff that they can't share. Um And so I don't
know particularly what type of electronic or signals data was recovered from that. I
did speak to an individual who I have talked about trying to see if I've
written in any articles, but but his you know I've mentioned it before,
who was you know, their job was the electronic warfare officer on the USS
Princeton during this event, and um I did speak to them. They they're
out of the military now, but they worked for another aerospace company, so
they can't come forward by name. But we did have a good chat,
and you know, for him he said it did not. In fact,
it was a really interesting interview because it added some other dynamics that I don't
think have been out there because this was his job. And you know,
he pointed out to me that they could only get returns on this object from
the Princeton based on surface returns, so passive radar systems. And he explained
that when the Spy one radar was first getting them and they thought that in
Gary Voris has talked about this where they took down the Spy one, which
is a brand new radar system, and you know, just because they thought
it was malfunctioning. This gentleman told me that they actually put up two other
radar systems to double check this, you know, two of the previous iterations,
and they could only get surface returns. They could not get signals or
electronic data. Now that's from the Princeton. There's a reason that the E
two Hawkeye exists. There's a reason we have earlier warning planes, and that's
because they have more sophisticated systems to track data. So there's the potential exists
that the airborne system could have gotten better data, but I haven't heard,
and Pj's never told me anything or hinted at saying that the signature data was
consistent with it being some type of known platform, both foreign otherwise. So
I wish I had more for you. Yeah, have you even I'm going
to bring this up? Neil asked this question, can you expand on the
Israel X Security chief statements? Now, I someone said that, I mean,
the first thing I read was into galactic something, and I go,
oh my god, this this has got to be a hoax. So I
didn't read into it. Have you read more on that I did? And
here's why I was intoering. I mean, don't get me wrong. When
I first thought it, I thought probably the same thing you did. I
went, oh, dear Lord, what is this silliness? But it's very
very fortunate because when I wasn't policing his date of Georgia, we had a
program called GLEE, which is the Georgia Israeli law Enforcement Exchange Program. So
every year you had a set of law enforcement commanders of different agencies in Georgia
would go to Israel for a week and then on the other half the year,
Israeli commanders would come here. Yeah wow, yeah, yeah, really
cool program. And because I was the only probably still am the only that
ever, you know, was in policing the state of Georgia, who spoke
Hebrew, who was fleeing in Hebrew, I got roped in. I was
gonna said that would be a stumbling block for the exchange, right well,
and most everybody speaks English, but I spoke Hebrew, and so it was
nice. So I always got tasked to these details. But it made great
contexts in Israel. And so after this all came out, I kind of
was like Jesse. But then and I heard about it. I actually heard
about it from Israeli friend very early on, right after the interview, and
I went, this is nuts and dismissed it. And then it made blew
up in the English speaking media, and I was like, oh god,
yeah everywhere, yeah, right, And so I asked some people, I'm
like, what is the deal with this? And it was interesting because they
said, you know, if English speaking media people are surprised by what was
said, imagine us in Israel are like, I'm sorry what because this was
a This is actually a very respected gentleman. I mean my first thoughts were,
he's nearly ninety years old, as any of us could experience, you
know, potential decline and mental mental faculties. My concern was a somebody taking
advantage of him. Yeah, but I didn't get an indication. That was
the sentence, and they said he No, he's highly respected, he's the
grandfather of israel space program. But they said, in the general opinion is
a it's kind of been well known. He's actually a UFO buff or let's
say, believer for a long time. He's been interested in this topic for
a long time. And so their kind of general assessment of this was is
that they think he you know, when he said that, he was saying
things that he has read in other places or been told by other people,
not necessarily in positions of a power or authority, and yet there may be
a very good reason why he would believe these things. In essence, they
believe that during his time as a security chief for Israel in the space program,
that he may have been made aware of things that the US government or
other governments haven't talked about or kind of dismissed or this idea. I think
there's plenty of times we've heard that people in the military say, yeah,
we catch you know, fast movers and fast walkers. You know, these
weird stuff comes up all the time. And so I think that there's a
little bit of potential that is he is taking. Maybe he does have some
more tangible information that the US government knows more about this stuff or has invested
more in it. And then also, I mean I was told he's always
had a big imagination, and you know that's what's made him a great in
leading the Israel space program. You know, people who believe we can get
off the ground are the ones who do. And so I haven't found anyone
who you know, and everyone I've I've spoken with um in the US government.
If such a thing as a galactic federation exists, they've they've done a
great job keeping that secret. That was Star Wars, wasn't It wasn't Star
Wars? I think, Harry, yeah, right, And it's one of
these things where you know, it plays on our hopes and dreams and what
you know what that would be great. You know, I've told people,
and I have no problem saying is that I'm very cautious as to say,
what are my feelings or opinions or hopes and dreams as opposed to what I
report on which I just try. I try to present it just like it
was a case I was going to take the court in policing, and I'd
swear on stand is the truth. But if you talk about hopes and dreams,
um, I hope all this stuff is a alien because human beings have
this really distinct ability that when we know something's possible, we end up doing
it. And so I want to travel the cosmos, I want to zip
around the Solar system, you know, I want to do that, And
so I hope it's alien. And so I don't know how much if and
his name is Gaps right him, I think it's a psalm, but he
I don't know how much of that is kind of his hopes and drains mixed
in with maybe a little truth in terms of the idea that indeed there's uh,
there's definitely something more legit to the idea of UFOs not representing being something
very complex that even some of the most sophisticated militaries in the world don't have
an answer for. Right right, I was trying to ask a question that
the chat's kind of messed up a little bit. I have one after this,
But all right, so this is by Neil again, doesn't the highest
chief of staff only now being briefed to mean black budget programs and up data
has never been under their control, which I believe that is so any of
the you know, any anything that goes private is not congressional oversight basically,
right, sure, I mean, and that has always been the most intriguing
aspect of all of this. And this is where I'm willing to, let's
say, jump into the rabbit hole of conspiracy to an extent of some people.
Is that, I mean twofold here is I do and it's it's when
he taught to some of the people working in government and everything who have been
privy to this type of stuff. Or there's there's one individual I really really
pray I try to get him before this article to come out on the record.
Um, he won't understand why at this point in time, but he
is a he's a former senior advisor to the White House for general Madism.
He was brief by Luelllesando on multiple occasions, and so he was like the
first one who's like, uh, and he point blank told me after the
Intercept article last year, the Pentagon denied it. He um, he called
public and was like, what the hell are you people talking about? I
was briefed by this, I was read into this. Why are you saying
this? Like I was there, and so you know, I hear this
side of it, and you learned the bureaucratic side of it. And one
of the things that was really compelling and interesting for me and him was because
he was the man there for Maddess. So you've heard lue Lozando say he
quit out of frustration because he couldn't get to Maddest. Well here, you
know, here's the inner circle, him and two other advisors who were the
people being briefed who weren't going to Maddest. And when I found out the
reasons, why, you go, oh god, that makes perfect sense,
Like there's not a conspiracy or cover up. You realized that human beings are
human beings. As in in twenty seventeen when this was going on, you
just faced an entire presidential administration change, an administration change there was chaotic and
frankly, never resumed anything that's resembled an effective government for the preceding four years
in my opinion, you had a lot. I mean that was lamented in
my report, where you somebody running the task for us saying, you know,
there's been you know, four different secretaries of the Navy and three different
secretaries of Defense in this time, and we can't get on the same page
on anything because you're constantly just briefing people, and so you realize, oh
wow, these things are mundane. And I've always said, in terms of
the UFO quote cover up, maybe willful apathy would be a good term,
because if you want to tell if you want me to believe that the idea
that somebody who's got four stars on their shoulder, they have reached the pinnacle
of their career. They're like three or four years from retirement and they have
arrived, you know, something that started when they were in RTC at high
school and when they went to West Point, like this is it and you
come to them and say, you know, sir and ma'am, here goes
all this information we got. This is nuts. We don't know how to
defend it. It's not attacking us, but it is I can absolutely see
somebody in that position going, I believe you, that sounds crazy and incredible
and I'm going to leave that for the next guy or girl. And I
think that's been going on since nineteen forty seven, yes, because it's just
like I don't know how, like this is not what my career was built
on and learning how to attack or how to deal with and so I'm gonna
leave it for somebody else. But at the same time, I think there's
potential, and we saw that when I did the report in Popular Mechanics on
how ass out was ran with BASS. I was fascinating that they ran it
like what I'm typically I'm familiar with, or what's called carve outs. They're
usually used in covert intelligence programs where you form an entire shell company and you
hide the true purpose of the company and what's actually going on, and so
the actual product and work that you're really interested in is considered proprietary because prietary
is exempt from FOIL, it's exempt from the Actually, the federal government is
legally prevented from releasing proprietary information, so they can it belongs to those companies,
but yet the information that they want is housing those companies. So there
has been times in talking to people and dealing with this that I wonder if
at one point in time that considerable more information or you hear people talk about
crash wreckage, that type of stuff, if indeed that exists. I truly
believe that that was something that, for reasons I don't know, or reasons
for extreme security, was transferred into private industry personnel. And you know,
it's no secret I've mentioned this on numerous occasions that probably the prime suspect for
me would have been the Atomic Energy Commission, which later became the Department of
Energy, because a totally civilian organization, and so when it was adopted as
a federal orzation, be very easy to just transfer that stuff into a civilian
component. And so I wonder, even with the modern news when when we
see this, we're like, how can the government not know more? Or
how can they not seem like they know more. They've been involved with this
for so many years, and I mean, they've got all these classified its
fiscated systems. I wonder how much the government itself is a bit hapless to
what potentially is being housed in private industry. Yeah, they don't have access,
and that's a you know, if indeed that's the case, it opens
up a whole It's kind of like when they talk about the USOS. There's
a whole new dynamic and component to this because there is not the same oversight.
There is not the same if you want to talk about the men in
black or all of these different things that people talk about, harassment, counterintelligence,
disinfo. There's just tons and tons and tons of regulation at the US
government level to make red tape and difficult. Private industry no problems. They
can do whatever they want. And so do you think do you think do
you think the government knows a lot more than the rest of us or do
you think they know a little more or not anything more than the rest of
us about what I think what is going on. I think they know a
lot more I do. That doesn't mean that, but I say that in
saying I don't know that they know what I think, that they know a
lot more in the sense that where the average person maybe easily dismisses this as
just a fringe topic and just kind of yeah whatever, I mean that that's
actually the social sentiment that the topic adopted when blue Book was closed, is
that oh, yeah, this is just fooy, you know, um,
you know, there's nothing to this, and anybody believes in that it's just
you know, on the fringe, you know, the criticize and stigmatized.
However, nobody actually liked happen to mention that to whatever these objects are,
because it's it's very, very fascinating to look at kind of the data for
the civilian agencies who continued examining this post nineteen sixty nine, because their data
is totally consistent with what Bluebook was seeing in terms of unknown or myth of
identifications of the number of sightings. So that's been consistent. And so I
think that they know more and I think that possibly, I mean, I
would gather they probably know a lot more in terms of being able to really
validate that, like this is really something going on because of the some of
the systems and things that they have in place that that just the public doesn't
have access to. Yeah, and then comm the strange thing about that,
you know, when when you talk about that is how does it move then
from one Let's say I don't want to say generation, but let's just say
I'm not gonna I'm not saying this is what happened, but let's just say
they did have crash retrieval from Roswell back in nineteen forty seven. How does
the what do you want to call it, the chain of custody or how
does it of the documents or whatever. I mean, it's just such a
puzzle. I never had any inside thoughts of that. Well. And this
is what's interesting when you look at extreme secrecy in anything, and so we're
not talking about UFOs, but in an extreme secrecy where in terms of compartmentalization.
A good example that I often tell people to look at and you can
Google search it you'll get some little limited information is look up something called fog
bank. Like fog bank. Fog bank is a steel classified, very top
secret substance used in all of the United States' nuclear weapons. Whatever this component
is is evidently a necessity in US nuclear weapons. A couple of years ago,
you know, somebody was like, Hey, I think we probably need
to replace our fog bank and our weapons aging we've had it for a while,
and the Department of Energy realized, holy crap, none of us know
how to make fog bank. None of us know exactly what it is.
Because it was so uber classified, you had such a small group of people
that were working on it developed in the first place. The laboratories in which
they were developed were now closed. Those individuals who originally worked on it were
either now had had passed away, or were no longer in government. So
you had this weird instance where you know, people are trying to figure out
what do we do for fog Bank, how do we make it? And
that's a good example of how extreme compartmentalized secrecy, frankly um can get lost
in the system. For lack of a better term, I think, Frank,
you know, I'll be honest with you, probably one of the most
compelling things that I heard, and I've mentioned this on another program. I
never intended to put it out publicly because I always tell you it's just a
good story. I don't have any proof behind it. And now I'm very
cautious to share stories because they can take a life of their own and kind
of the stitch mutant narrative begins to build, and so I continuously caveat this.
It's just a story, but it's an interesting story, and it was
a story that I was told while going through all of the interviews and talking
to a lot of people during the Popular Mechanics article I released in February was
I was told that yeah, yeah, the the there was materials covered from
something, you know, in nineteen forty seven. There were occupants, And
I'm giving exactly what was said to me, So I'm not paraphrasing or kind
of take I'm not trying to take anything away here. They said there were
occupants, that these occupants, um it was there was a quote zero percent
chance that these occupants were anthropomorphic, meaning like us too. That it was
a highly advanced, highly highly advanced whatever. It did not look like a
flying saucer um. And that the just material science and just every single facet
and component of this was so beyond our own paradigm of scientific understanding and knowledge
that the decision was made, just like the Raiders of the Lost Art,
to put it up and just file it away somewhere until until we reached the
point that we possessed the the scientific understanding and knowledge to do something with it.
That sounds crazy. So we think it's just like in Raiders of the
Lost are and crates in some big warehouse. It sounds nuts. But if
you but but you have to look at it in context and realize that if
indeed that's true, you're looking at the United States we're in the middle of
a cold war with Russia. Not sound like time DeLong here. And I'm
not saying we found a life form, but where you know, a cold
war where you have to mitigate the money that you want to spend on research
and develop on something if if you genuinely believe that you do not possess the
scientific ability to really make a breakthrough, saying we could spend our entire defense
budget on this, but we wouldn't understand it. And while we're doing that,
Russia is building bombers, Russia's building subs, and so the decision is
just kind of made, let's shelve it. That's not crazy, And in
fact, that happened when when ben Rich when they developed stealth technology in the
late nineteen seventies, they you know, they looked at it and said,
we know it works, but we don't understand why yet. And so they
had to make the decision do we develop it and not understanding how it works,
or do we just shelve it until we know more and then run into
the risk of an adversary developing stealth technology first. So I mean, these
decisions of when you make a breakthrough, but maybe you don't understand enough of
it that goes on and all this stuff. I mean, there's assuredly an
innumerable number of different types of military platforms who have made it to the proof
of concept stage. One of them has been made, they fly it out
to Area fifty one or San Clemente or somewhere, show it off, and
the military goes, yeah, that's pretty cool. But the cost risk you
know, what we need in terms of the global scale, it's just not
beneficial to us, and it gets tabled, shell put away, um,
you know, to bring out another day. And so this actually happens a
lot in the in the government research and acquisitions. UM, not saying that
that's what's happened here, but it'd be. When I heard that, it
was interesting because I thought it was one of the first times that maybe i'd
heard something that was the most logical that possibly you could recover something, and
that would explain kind of all the cover up all those different you know,
lack of discussion and just weirdness because um, you know, I've been willing
to sound record you look at something that we're like roswell, I don't know,
Uh, it's still interesting. I don't think I've found a good answer.
I don't think that the the mobile balloon answer, I think doesn't satis.
Yeah, factory answer. Yeah, there's there's a lot on that.
Yeah. Yeah. I don't know exactly what to think of all that,
you know, I mean I've always wondered, as time, you know,
has gone on, how much do they know? Where? Do they know
where they're coming from? You know that type of thing? Do you know
what they want? The number one question everyone wants to know why? Why
are they here? And what do they want? Those are the those are
the big questions. And are they right? I mean we may up be
asking the wrong questions? Yeah, no, I mean yes, that touches
on two points that I try to bring up every time I get a chance,
which is one in my opinion, and I've said this, is that
the term UFO unidentified flying saucer or object excuse me, has always been a
hindrance to it because, you know, it is symbolic of the UFO topic
in general. If I were to ask you, Martin, do UFOs fly?
You go, yeah, they're in the sky, they're flying around.
By a colloquial definition, you are right. But in terms of the principles
of how we understand flight. And you talk about the right the piece of
the Right Brothers playing the B twenty one raider that's under development right now,
or the B two self bomber. They're really cool. They wouldn't fly without
these sophisticated computer systems. But the principles of lift, angle, attack,
drag propulsion that is the exact same is what you're looking at the Right Brothers,
they're not. We haven't changed the wheel and how we achieve flight here,
so you haven't. It's still the same exact principle. But but some
of these that are talking about it, we're talking about something totally different in
terms of how they're achieving flight here. And therefore these objects are not flying
by how we define flight. So especially when there's never a sound barrier broken
or you know, all kinds of all kinds of yeah, and so that
to your point, you just made a mention in research, when you arrive
at a conclusion that is both yes and no. Yes, it is flying
because they're in the sky. No it is not flying because it does not
comport with how we define flight. That means that the answer lies beyond the
hypothesis, and so you haven't asked the right question, and I think that's
still going on. It's seventy years going and so um, I don't know.
I mean it's and understand, people in government are just human beings.
You know. They may think they know, they may you know, you
think that and the unknown is a scary thing. Imagine not knowing, but
yet having at your fingertips the most like I can zoom, you know.
They wanted to think at zoom in my window right now and be listening to
our conversation. But you have that tele analogy and then go just like the
rest of us, I know it's real, but I don't know what the
heck it is like. That's more scary to me. So there's a lot
of it. I don't know, But I think if it from that perspective,
and think that's kind of a chaotic position. We want them to know
though, really yea to feel a little bit of some type of safety in
a way. What about People always bring up this when they're talking about military.
They think the black the big black triangles, not in particular like the
will. It's hard to tell the size of the one that was in that
rendition, but the black triangles. People a lot of people are saying,
you know, we must have figured out how to do anti gravity and blah
blah blah, it's military. And even there was one particular guess I had
that I said to them, well, you know, some of them have
been reported to be up to a mile wide even larger possibly, and where
would they house something like that? And they had a quite you know,
they had an answer for everything. Do you think that's possible that we have
these black triangles have anything to do with military? I'm sure that some of
the sightings that people report have to do with military platforms. How much I
don't know. And the reason there begins to also you got to examine the
kind of aerospace science behind it. And so if we had an anti gravity
technology, let's say, which is a buzzword that, by the way,
just turns off all aerospace engineers and sciences, I atty poppycock, but it's
the best term that we have for how to achieve propulsion like that. You
know, the first question I would have is why put that in a delta
shaped wing or a flying wing formation. The reason that the stealth bomber is
a flying wing and these types of things is they hide the engines to it
inside the wings to cool the exhaust. It's part of the stealth component to
it. But if you have a means of achieving lift and propulsion, you
don't necessarily need any kind of aerodynamic shape in a flying wing pattern. And
so you know, you could kind of again, you can always play the
well, what if, what if? What if? You know, if
you had a system that sure is more advanced and maybe it's not necessarily anti
gravitic, but it's got a better means, and then it uses this flying
shape to almost act as a glider in high altitude situations, much like the
U two. The Youtwo spy plane is just a big glider um. And
that would make sense, um. But but in truth, the the you
know and how I'm familiar with, and all the known methods of achieving flight,
the flying wing in the delta shape is not It's conduced it for certain
platforms, but it's not the most stable, uh flight pattern. And in
fact, you know when they lost a B two a couple of years ago,
and the Philippines they had a B two that crashed on takeoff, billion
dollars gone in a few seconds. That was that was because moisture got into
a system because it wouldn't fly without these computers that that helped stabilize it and
do all these different things to get it off the ground. And so,
um, it's a long way of saying, there's still more questions that I
would want to know there, because obviously if it's not us, well then
why would somebody else use this delta shape? You know. I've had people
share me their theories that it has to do with energy propulsion, that actually
what you're seeing with these triangles or you know, three or more different detached
probe like things that come together to form a shape for propulsion. I don't
know if that's true. Sounds like a good idea, but I do believe.
I mean, I know when I was still living in Georgia, I
lived directly over the flight line from Fort Stewart to Hunt our Army airfield,
and the one sixtieth Night Stalkers for this Army Special Operations Wing is there before
Stewart. A lot of people don't realize is the largest land mass army base
in the United States. So they did a lot of weird things out there.
And I work night shift for latter part of my career, and I
can distinctly remember being, you know, up at like three o'clock in the
morning and working in the garage or something and seeing two low flying triangular looking
crafts coming across the flight line following the Oguichi River, headed out towards the
Atlantic Ocean, in fact, where the Roosevelt pilots in twenty fifteen encountered their
objects. That was, it was a stone throw from my house. The
Atlantic was right there. Now, these looked interesting. They I think they
probably were the RQ one seventy five Arque when eighty or an early variant of
that, the new drones, um so, but I never had any doubt
they weren't ours. But that says we do have some interesting stuff that people
don't know about, and they do come out, you know, late at
night and fly this type of stuff. So I think, well, yeah,
go ahead. I'm sorry. I was just gonna say. I think
I've always said that. I think there's a combination of all of the above.
I think there's I agree, I agree with that. One of the
things though, why would that Well, I think someone tried to answer this
for me, and the question was, why would these big, huge triangles
fly over populated areas if they were you know, top secret. And you
know why one of the an email I got from someone it's they said,
it's purposely because they want to see who reports it and why do they report
it as And if they're reporting it as a UFO, then great, because
this is top secret. You know what I mean, I understand the logic
if that is it, If it's true, sure, I mean that,
you know, maybe I think the other thing here then I always tell people
when you when you want to examine it from a classified technology standpoint. Uh,
Like I said, we're here, my wife, We're at an air
base here in Germany. Our air base here has about you know, I
think six seven eight thousand federal employees and probably two or three thousand civilian employees.
There's a hospital, there's a grocery store, there's the military version of
the Walmart, the BX schools, I mean, you name it. It
is a community size of ten thousand population um so huge significant infrastructure. I
don't even know what the budget is, but clearly in the millions that is
for twenty four F sixteen fighter jets. That's amazing. Yes, wow,
And is that considered a large base for other operations besides oh no, no,
this is so you're talking that someone that has a base that has a
lot more equipment on it. It's going to be much more popularly. Oh
god, yes, yeah, four stewarts. Yes, I grew up on
military bases or around them, and yes, this is this is tiny,
but I bring that up to twenty four planes. Think of all the logistics
necessary. Where are those same types of logistics and everything necessary to house potentially
classified aerospace programs that have gone on for decades? I mean we would put
them in with sightings like that? Where? Where where is it? Where
are they hiding him? I mean, I can't believe we only have three
minutes left? And so I thought this question from Kevin was an appropriate one.
What's coming next? I think he means up, you know on your
website the debrief dot org. Cool. Well, first of all, hey
Kevin, it is great to hear from you. I know Kevin from way
back. You know Kevin. Yeah he's great. Yeah yeah, yeah,
he's got quite a background too, Yeah, yes he does. And I
apologize, Kevin. I know I have haven't gotten back to you in late
but now you see with a deep brief hopefully you understand what I've been busy
to. But now I'm glad to see your name because I need to get
back with you. We talked about some stuff. We need to get back
to you anyway, Um, what's next? You know when it comes to
the debrief, let's just say that, I mean we already we established that
when we said we want to cover breakthrough science and disruptive technology, and so
you're going to see continuous stories coming out that you know, examine a bias
towards future technology and things and give a venue to for people to kind of
see that kind of reporting on that because we think that it's not just about
reporting it, but it's also twofold inspiring innovation and technology and also you know
people you know, asking people questions that relate to the ethics and things that
are involved in technology, so we can get ahead of those curves. Now,
if you were talking about just UFOs, I don't know yet, not
that I'm hiding anything from it. I would be honest with you. This
last article took a lot of work that I don't think people really recognize and
don't expect them to like. That's not I don't say that for for any
reason other than to just say it is very taxing and consuming um and and
so UM. I never want to get a position where I'm forcing UFO stories
because I think people want to hear them, because I think that people fall
into traps of I'm glad to hear you say that, because that that is
the downfall of a lot of really good people and this field, like they
become less significant, so they create um. I've just seen it happen so
many times. Unfortunately. UM. You know, they try to make themselves,
you know, more important. Um and and stretch the truth I should
say, or whatever it is to you know, become pertinent. But anyway,
I'm glad to hear you say that. And uh, but it's been
a real pleasure. I really have enjoy talking today absolutely anytime, any anytime,
Martin, great time, great questions. All right, So you take
care and talk sooner you later on. All right. So again, next
week we do have coming up on this show. We have I have it
up here at Jack Sill Slilla. I can't remember what his deal was,
but anyway, I think it'll be a great show. And that's not Tuesday,
which is in two days. That's a week from Tuesday, So just
keep that in mind and everything will be back to normal by then. And
by the way, I just want to share this because it is near.
It is near Christmas, so check this out. This is our merchandise and
I'm not sure what's going on here anyway, we do have some T shirts
and all kinds of good stuff, and you know, check it out there,
think about for maybe a Christmas present for yourself or whatever. It's right
on our website podcast UFO dot com and and you can get it done and
shipped in time for Christmas. Anyway, Thanks so much everyone, and we'll
see you next week. Oh, I see what's going on. I had
this going like that. That's what's going on, all right. We'll see
you next week. And well, actually yeah, a week, you know
what I mean on Tuesday. I just don't have the date in front of
me. I think it's the twenty second is when it will be. Wow,
that's the week of Christmas and we'll be giving away, you know,
the T shirts at that time. So thank you for everyone, and remember
to keep your eyes to the sky.