1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:03,600 Murder. Thanks for having me Nicky, for our listeners, and on your 2 00:00:03,600 --> 00:00:07,960 personal and professional background, especially as it relates to how you began reporting on 3 00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:15,839 writers. I have been a journalist or back in two thousand and five, 4 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:20,000 I was a crime investigated writer at the Daily News, and my boss pretty 5 00:00:20,039 --> 00:00:23,320 much as sign me breaking crime stories and I would dig into them and try 6 00:00:23,359 --> 00:00:26,079 to get a head on them together. So one day in January tenth, 7 00:00:26,199 --> 00:00:29,800 my name is Christian. I'm a writer, a researchers, being a teacher 8 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:37,200 and a victim initial of the social media manager, administrator and colonial murder with 9 00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:41,439 my partner in Famous Alone of Temple University, even though he never graduated from 10 00:00:41,439 --> 00:00:44,320 there, he just got an honorary degree later on. He did it ten 11 00:00:44,479 --> 00:00:48,320 for a few years and just beloved and I was a huge fan myself. 12 00:00:48,359 --> 00:00:51,920 I grew up watching Fat Autward and the Cosby Kids on Saturday Morning cartoons with 13 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:55,759 my brother. I watched The Cosby Show. It got me out of all 14 00:00:55,799 --> 00:00:59,479 the chaos and all the griefs in my own home after my older brother died 15 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:02,840 when I was sixteen years old. I love that show. I thought Bill 16 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:06,680 Cosby was the flexible and I was even excited when I moved to Philly because 17 00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:08,920 I just loved him. I thought maybe I'll end up doing a story about 18 00:01:08,959 --> 00:01:12,040 him or meeting him sometime. I didn't think it would be this story. 19 00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:17,079 And I had just done of the expose and drug facilitated sexual assaults being on 20 00:01:17,120 --> 00:01:19,640 the rise in Philly like a year or two before. What I found was 21 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:25,280 truly horrifying because it is the perfect crimes. These drugs take away a victim's 22 00:01:25,439 --> 00:01:29,359 memory, they take away their ability to resist. Most of them are gone 23 00:01:29,359 --> 00:01:30,959 out of their system within twelve hours, so if they wake up the next 24 00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:34,400 day and want to go to the hospital and get tested, the drugs are 25 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:37,239 already gone. Even worse than that, if you go to the police, 26 00:01:37,480 --> 00:01:40,480 they could even say you took the drugs voluntarily. And who are they going 27 00:01:40,519 --> 00:01:42,400 to believe you? Or what if the person is someone like Bill Cosby, 28 00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:46,480 who you say did this to you, America's dad? Who do you think 29 00:01:46,480 --> 00:01:49,359 the police are going to believe? So it was really a wake up call 30 00:01:49,439 --> 00:01:51,840 to be about these crimes. I thought they were truly horrific. So to 31 00:01:51,879 --> 00:01:56,280 find Bill Cosby, America's dad, being accused of this was horrific. And 32 00:01:56,480 --> 00:01:59,920 my job as a journalist is to put my personal feelings aside and try to 33 00:02:00,079 --> 00:02:01,799 find out what the truth is and get both sides. And I thought, 34 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:05,920 we know who Bill Cosby is, or at least who we think he is. 35 00:02:06,159 --> 00:02:08,199 Who is this woman accusing him? Because of course they weren't naming her, 36 00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:13,400 which is common with sexual assault cases. News organizations don't name a sexual 37 00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:16,199 assault victim without their consent, although that would quickly change with this case, 38 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:19,919 although not with my stories. But I found out through a source at Temple 39 00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:22,080 who she was. I had her name and I was able to do a 40 00:02:22,159 --> 00:02:24,360 Nexus search on her and found out she was one of the top ten high 41 00:02:24,360 --> 00:02:29,840 school basketball players in Canada. She got recruited by forty to fifty colleges in 42 00:02:29,879 --> 00:02:32,879 the US and ultimately went to the University of Arizona on scholarship. She dreamed 43 00:02:32,879 --> 00:02:38,000 of playing for the WNBA one day. When that didn't happen, she went 44 00:02:38,039 --> 00:02:40,639 to Italy and played professionally for eighteen months, and then she ended up back 45 00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:45,120 in Canada and was trying to figure out what to do next because it was 46 00:02:45,159 --> 00:02:49,199 clear she was never going to play professional basketball. Then Don Staley, who 47 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:52,879 was the Temple women's basketball coach, at the time, and a close friend 48 00:02:52,879 --> 00:02:54,680 of Cosby's came to her through a friend and asked her she wanted to be 49 00:02:54,759 --> 00:03:00,000 director of operations for the women's basketball team. That's how she met Cosby. 50 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:01,360 It took the job, she got there, and eight or ten months later 51 00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:06,280 she was at a home basketball game and Cosby was there and a donor introduced 52 00:03:06,319 --> 00:03:08,719 them. Now, Cosby was also very close to Don Staley. As I 53 00:03:08,759 --> 00:03:12,639 said, there was a poster of their pictures of two of them on the 54 00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:15,360 walls at her office, and he devoted the Philadelphia premiere of the Fat Albert 55 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:20,319 movie to Don Stalely, so there was that aspect to it. Plus, 56 00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:23,639 Cosby was on the board of trustees at Temple University, basically Andrea's boss, 57 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:28,439 and he followed up with the phone. He began calling her at the offices 58 00:03:28,479 --> 00:03:31,000 there, asking questions about the women's basketball team. He at the time, 59 00:03:31,039 --> 00:03:36,360 he was even doing commercials for Comcast, which was local then not the Mammoth 60 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:39,080 it is now Comcast TV, about the women's basketball team, so he was 61 00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:43,520 just all in. Remember, he used to wear Temple University sweatshirts or shirts 62 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:46,919 on the Cosby Show. So they struck up a friendship and what she thought 63 00:03:46,919 --> 00:03:49,879 was a mentorship. Now, as he later sent in his own deposition, 64 00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:53,240 he had his eye on her romantically from the very beginning, and it was 65 00:03:53,439 --> 00:03:54,800 if you read some of the stuff I WoT he was like a predator versus 66 00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:59,560 pray thing. He was just slowly reeling her into his circle and gaining her 67 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:01,479 trust, grooming her. And he did what he did with so many of 68 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:04,159 the other victims. He groomed her family. He met her mom and her 69 00:04:04,159 --> 00:04:08,159 sister when he did her performance in Canada. They had pictures with him. 70 00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:11,719 It's like a script he was working from and it was very well bought out 71 00:04:11,719 --> 00:04:14,879 and very well performed. So anyway, that's how I got on it, 72 00:04:14,919 --> 00:04:17,040 and I quickly discovered she was very credible and that she had a lot of 73 00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:21,639 evidence to support her claims. Then a second woman came forward and said that 74 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:25,160 he had done the same thing to her thirty years ago, and she told 75 00:04:25,199 --> 00:04:29,759 her story to me exclusively tomorrow Green. She first actually told the d the 76 00:04:29,759 --> 00:04:33,120 local DA's office was investigating. Then she also told Andreas lawyers because she had 77 00:04:33,160 --> 00:04:38,360 obtained lawyers because she's going up against Bill Cosby and what had made her He 78 00:04:38,439 --> 00:04:41,199 drugged and assaulted her at his home. She had gone to him for advice 79 00:04:41,240 --> 00:04:44,120 because she was going to quit her job at Temple in January two thousand and 80 00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:46,079 four, and she wanted advice on how to tell Dawn, and Cosby invited 81 00:04:46,079 --> 00:04:50,240 her over and he had made moves on her two times prior. Now she's 82 00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:53,399 gay, and he knew she was in a relationship with a woman. And 83 00:04:53,439 --> 00:04:56,959 she's on six feet tall. He's a seventies he's thirty years older than her, 84 00:04:57,000 --> 00:04:59,759 like ten years older than her own father. And she's if anything happened 85 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:02,079 and handle it because she was a very strong, fit athlete, almost six 86 00:05:02,079 --> 00:05:05,639 feet tall and very fit. So she really wasn't worried about not being able 87 00:05:05,639 --> 00:05:08,879 to handle these situations with him, Like I said, he was on the 88 00:05:08,879 --> 00:05:12,279 border trustees. But that night he said, are you nervous? And he 89 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:15,120 knew she only took holistic medicine. She didn't take prescription drugs or anything, 90 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:19,199 and he was very into holistic medicine or so he said, so she was 91 00:05:19,279 --> 00:05:21,600 very nervous. He said, he you stressed, and she said yes, 92 00:05:21,639 --> 00:05:26,439 and he said, here's two herbal pills. It's like herbal meditation. And 93 00:05:26,839 --> 00:05:30,199 right then within twenty minute, she started feeling woozy. She started trying to 94 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:33,120 stand up, she couldn't really walk, and they were sitting in his kitchen 95 00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:36,480 and he led her over to a couch in the next room and put her 96 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:39,920 on the couch. And at that point she's paralyzed. She can't move, 97 00:05:40,399 --> 00:05:44,199 she can't speak, and he begins sexually assaulting her as she's in and out 98 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:46,439 of consciousness. And when she woke a few hours later, she was laying 99 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:48,759 on the couch and who closed with her shoveled, and he comes down the 100 00:05:48,759 --> 00:05:51,399 stairs. He's standing there in a white bathrobe, and he offers her a 101 00:05:51,519 --> 00:05:55,639 muffin and some tea, and she's just going through this whole thing. Oh 102 00:05:55,680 --> 00:05:58,879 my god, what just happened. What happened? This is America's dad. 103 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:01,639 This is what happened. And that's what a lot of sexual assault victims go 104 00:06:01,680 --> 00:06:05,079 through in these circumstances, because I think, as statistic is, eighty five 105 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:10,560 percent of sexual assaults are from someone the victim knows, only fifteen percent or 106 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:14,600 stranger sexual assaults. So she went home to the shower. She was trying 107 00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:16,639 to figure out what to do. She did try to confront him a month 108 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:19,279 or two later, because she just wanted to know what drug you gave me, 109 00:06:19,399 --> 00:06:21,680 what did you do? And he just said something to her life, 110 00:06:21,759 --> 00:06:26,399 you had an orgasm, and she just was just okay. She moved back 111 00:06:26,399 --> 00:06:28,839 home. She was going to go back to massage school to be missus like 112 00:06:28,879 --> 00:06:31,319 her dad back in Canada. She went home and her parents knew something was 113 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:34,000 wrong with her. She came home, she was pale, she was shaking, 114 00:06:34,120 --> 00:06:38,199 she didn't eat, she didn't want to socialize. She was having nightmares 115 00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:41,800 where she was screaming in her sleep. One morning in January two thousand and 116 00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:45,720 five, she woke up from another nightmare and these dreams apparently were about women 117 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:47,480 being raped in front of her, and it was her fault because she hadn't 118 00:06:47,519 --> 00:06:50,399 spoken up. And that's what made her finally call the police because she was 119 00:06:50,439 --> 00:06:53,879 so worried he was going to do this to someone else and it would be 120 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:57,240 her fault because she had not spoken up. And that's what started this whole 121 00:06:57,240 --> 00:07:00,839 thing. But the DA at the time decided not to charge Cosby. Into 122 00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:03,399 this day, that's what ultimately led to his being free last year. But 123 00:07:03,399 --> 00:07:05,439 that's a whole other thing. So anyway, that's a long story. That's 124 00:07:05,439 --> 00:07:08,480 how I got on it, and it became like this whole thing. I 125 00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:11,639 got interviews with other victims, he had done this too, and so on 126 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:13,839 and so forth, and that's how I got on it. I started out 127 00:07:13,879 --> 00:07:16,360 being the biggest fan of Cosby, just trying to do my job as a 128 00:07:16,399 --> 00:07:20,199 journalist and set my personal feelings aside. And the more I dug into this 129 00:07:20,279 --> 00:07:23,720 and the more I found out about her, the more credible I found her. 130 00:07:24,079 --> 00:07:30,240 How did you deal with having to come to the realization that America's Dad, 131 00:07:30,399 --> 00:07:32,639 Bill Cosby is a dangerous predator? How did you deal with that? 132 00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:36,199 Especially because you said you were a fan of the show. That's such a 133 00:07:36,319 --> 00:07:40,199 level of cognitive dissonance. How do you deal with that? It was really 134 00:07:40,199 --> 00:07:43,720 interesting, and my journalism training helped me because I was able to just the 135 00:07:43,759 --> 00:07:46,759 facts, man, focus on the facts, focus on presenting both sides. 136 00:07:46,879 --> 00:07:49,759 And it wasn't until I started writing my book in the summer of eighteen after 137 00:07:49,839 --> 00:07:54,639 his conviction that I really and I made it from my point of view because 138 00:07:54,680 --> 00:07:57,600 it was very difficult to get a book deal on this in general because of 139 00:07:57,600 --> 00:08:00,959 who Cosby is, and at that point, this was eighteen, there had 140 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:05,439 been the other media jumped in twenty fourteen and begining very aggressively reporting it. 141 00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:07,439 But I was the only one doing it in two thousand and five, and 142 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:09,199 I was attacked by the rest of the media back then. But for that 143 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:13,480 book, I really had to dig into my own personal feelings. My editor 144 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:15,959 would send it back, Okay, we need you to really think about this. 145 00:08:16,079 --> 00:08:18,160 That's when it really started. And when I wrote the chapter about the 146 00:08:18,199 --> 00:08:22,240 sentencing, and I was at his sentencing and I saw him after he was 147 00:08:22,279 --> 00:08:26,639 sentenced to prison, and I saw him starting to roll up his sleeves and 148 00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:31,600 he's wearing those red suspenders how Tuxtable used to wear. I found myself feeling 149 00:08:31,959 --> 00:08:35,039 sad. I'm like, why am I feeling sad? And I wrote about 150 00:08:35,039 --> 00:08:37,360 that in the book because it was just it was separating realizing he never was 151 00:08:37,399 --> 00:08:43,000 Cliff Fuxtable, that this person I thought he was is not who he is. 152 00:08:43,240 --> 00:08:46,600 Cliff Tuxtable was a fictional character, and Bill Cosby is not Clif Tuxtable. 153 00:08:46,799 --> 00:08:50,240 And I'm not America's dad either. No, I mean he was, 154 00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:54,759 but he used that as a cover and that helped him gain the trust of 155 00:08:54,799 --> 00:08:58,000 these women as well. As I wrote about I started at my own substat 156 00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:01,440 column last year because I felt like there are things I still wanted to say 157 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:03,720 about this as things evolved. But I don't want to write news stories because 158 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:07,080 I put my opinion out there, So I write opinion pieces when things happen. 159 00:09:07,159 --> 00:09:11,559 And with the recent development with Judy Houth in the civil case and she 160 00:09:11,639 --> 00:09:13,360 was sixteen year old girl, I thought most people don't realize how many of 161 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:18,039 his victims were teenagers. Yeah, that's a whole other level. I've been 162 00:09:18,039 --> 00:09:20,120 trying to sort out my feelings about or at least lay out there for other 163 00:09:20,159 --> 00:09:24,039 people to see, because I still think he has so many fans that don't 164 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:28,919 want to believe this and don't believe this and truly believe he's innocent. Well, 165 00:09:28,919 --> 00:09:33,320 based on your own research and reporting, Nikki, how many women do 166 00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:37,440 you think Bill Cosby has assaulted? There are sixty five known victims. I 167 00:09:37,519 --> 00:09:41,320 say known because for every one of them, I think there's at least ten 168 00:09:41,360 --> 00:09:45,399 more, if not one hundred more. There are other women who will tell 169 00:09:45,399 --> 00:09:48,120 you that they know of other women some of the victims. I think we'll 170 00:09:48,159 --> 00:09:50,799 look at one of these years when a lot of the teenagers happened. It 171 00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:52,600 was like all in one year, in nineteen seventy five. So the victims 172 00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:56,000 state the earliest known one is nineteen sixty five. She was a seventeen year 173 00:09:56,000 --> 00:10:00,399 old version, and the most recent one that we know about, I believe 174 00:10:00,399 --> 00:10:03,879 it's two thousand and eight, which I think was Chloe Coins. And there 175 00:10:03,919 --> 00:10:07,360 are so many that have never come forward. I believe that. And as 176 00:10:07,399 --> 00:10:09,639 I hoothesized in the book, or I say without saying in the book, 177 00:10:09,639 --> 00:10:13,519 like how many didn't surviveing drugged and sexually soughted by Bill Cosby? Because how 178 00:10:13,519 --> 00:10:16,320 do you know when you drug someone without their knowledge or consent that they're not 179 00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:20,639 allergic to the drug. I didn't know I was allergic to demroll until I 180 00:10:20,679 --> 00:10:22,759 got bitten by my parents' dog at hand surgery, and they gave me dem 181 00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:26,399 all and I broke out in hives all over my body, And had they 182 00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:28,279 not given me the anecdote, I would have died. So a couple of 183 00:10:28,279 --> 00:10:31,720 the women have talked about trying to drive after he drugged them, and some 184 00:10:31,799 --> 00:10:35,399 of them dinged other cars, and how many women did not survive that drive 185 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:39,080 home? And it's very easy for someone with a lot of power like him 186 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:43,799 to cover that up and had Andrea Constant not gone to the police. But 187 00:10:43,879 --> 00:10:46,679 he had a pattern when once Andrew went to the police, then he came 188 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:50,559 to her and offered her a scholarship for her massage school. For how many 189 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:54,200 women got scholarships when they dropped their police complaints or didn't go to the police, 190 00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:56,600 or just stopped didn't go to the police because he gave them a scholarship 191 00:10:56,759 --> 00:11:01,519 quote unquote a scholarship quote unquote. There's no way of telling how many there 192 00:11:01,559 --> 00:11:05,320 are, but I am confident there are many more. We do pride ourselves 193 00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:07,639 on being a victim centric podcast, so it is important to us to get 194 00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:11,240 out the stories of the victims, which is why we really like all the 195 00:11:11,279 --> 00:11:15,840 covers that you've done on Cosby, and so we believe Andrea Constant and all 196 00:11:15,879 --> 00:11:18,600 the other women. Why do you think it is that there are still people 197 00:11:18,639 --> 00:11:22,960 who just don't believe it. I was reading through your book and I was 198 00:11:22,039 --> 00:11:28,159 appalled at the number of people who jumped to Cosby's defense, both well known 199 00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:31,240 and people who would still show up and go to his shows and offer him 200 00:11:31,279 --> 00:11:35,039 standing ovations. Why are there still people out there who just don't want to 201 00:11:35,039 --> 00:11:39,159 believe that Bill Cosby was living like this wholly different existence from the Daddy Huxtable 202 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:43,840 image on TV. Because these are people we are first of all, America's 203 00:11:43,879 --> 00:11:48,360 a celebrity worshiping country. We worship our celebrities here. I guarantee you all 204 00:11:48,399 --> 00:11:52,519 the people who are supporting him have never met him or again, or probably 205 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:56,799 ninety nine percent of them. He's got a half a million followers on his 206 00:11:56,879 --> 00:11:58,679 Facebook page. They've grew up with him, they saw him on TV. 207 00:11:58,799 --> 00:12:01,799 They don't want to believe it. It's very different than a Harvey Weinstein or 208 00:12:01,919 --> 00:12:07,000 Jeffrey Epstein because most people never heard of either of those two people before those 209 00:12:07,039 --> 00:12:11,679 scandals broke. But Bill Cosby was a beloved international icon. People thought they 210 00:12:11,759 --> 00:12:16,120 knew him. They are just reluctant to let go of that image they have 211 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:18,600 of him. It's ridiculous if you think about it, because he's a celebrity. 212 00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:22,039 Just because you play a nice guy on TV doesn't mean you are one. 213 00:12:22,159 --> 00:12:26,960 He's an actor, He's a brilliant actor. If you gauged his acts 214 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:30,879 of mystrosity against the way he portrays himself on television, I think that's a 215 00:12:30,879 --> 00:12:33,759 big part of it. It's just celebrity worship, and they just worship him. 216 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:39,159 In reading your writing and the writing of others, I walk away with 217 00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:43,240 a reception, Nikki, that it's quite possible that it was common knowledge in 218 00:12:43,919 --> 00:12:50,320 elite entertainment circles as well as in comedy circles when I was a kid. 219 00:12:50,559 --> 00:12:56,320 Bill Cosby was a comedian who was then breaking into television. In the early 220 00:12:56,399 --> 00:13:01,159 part of his career, he was a touring comedian who played clubs and went 221 00:13:01,159 --> 00:13:05,399 out and toured the country. As I understand it, as far back as 222 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:09,159 the nineteen sixties he was known as a serial rapist. That this pattern of 223 00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:16,120 drugging women and raping them while they were unconscious may extend back fifty years or 224 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:20,279 more. Is that a fair perception. I know it extended back at least 225 00:13:20,279 --> 00:13:24,720 into the seventies that people in Hollywood and people were aware of that. I'm 226 00:13:24,759 --> 00:13:28,200 not as certain about the sixties. That was the days of I Spy, 227 00:13:28,519 --> 00:13:31,399 but he was certainly preying on women then, and it certainly became very pop 228 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:35,960 beat up. People knew. Even tomar Green talked about what in nineteen sixty 229 00:13:35,039 --> 00:13:39,480 nine, nineteen seventy, Doctor Amar who was Cosby's friend who was her friend, 230 00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:41,600 was like, don't be alone with him. Do not be in a 231 00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:45,519 room alone with him. So people close to him certainly knew that he was 232 00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:48,399 doing this, and they just I don't know, Maybe it was because it 233 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:50,480 was the sixties and it was coeludes and they're just I don't know. He 234 00:13:50,559 --> 00:13:54,360 had so much power once he went on I Spy, especially, which was 235 00:13:54,399 --> 00:13:56,960 around nineteen sixty five sixty six. Yeah, he just had so much power. 236 00:13:58,159 --> 00:14:00,960 That's how men like that get away with it. I remember when this 237 00:14:01,159 --> 00:14:05,200 rebroke again in twenty fourteen and one of the Cosby survivors got a text from 238 00:14:05,279 --> 00:14:11,080 Quincy Jones who said, I've been telling Bill for years to stop drugging women. 239 00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:13,919 It was like, at least Quincy tried to stop him, because everybody 240 00:14:13,919 --> 00:14:16,919 else. I listened to Joe Rogan and Bill Maher I don't know last year 241 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:20,960 the year before before Rogan's podcast went to Spotify, and they were laughing about, 242 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:22,039 oh, yeah, I knew back in the nineties he was doing that, 243 00:14:22,039 --> 00:14:24,440 said, I knew back in the eighties he was doing this, and 244 00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:28,679 blah blah blah, and these modeling agencies knew they were sending him victims. 245 00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:31,799 So many of these women were and they were barely out of their teams. 246 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:35,879 Some of them were teenagers. Most of them were barely out of their teams 247 00:14:35,879 --> 00:14:39,279 of twenty twenty one, twenty two, and they just sped him victims because 248 00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:43,679 William Morris's agency knew because they were helping pay off the victims. It's interesting 249 00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:48,759 because I read the Cosby biography too, that Mark Whittaker did that Cosby cooperated 250 00:14:48,759 --> 00:14:50,559 with. I read in there that in the early seventies, I think it 251 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:54,759 was around then, Camille took over the money for Cosby because he had a 252 00:14:54,799 --> 00:14:56,320 manager that stole a lot of his money. And I'm thinking, all right, 253 00:14:56,320 --> 00:14:58,519 so how did Camille that know if she took over the money. Then 254 00:14:58,559 --> 00:15:01,960 I learned how that industry works when you have a manager, because I had 255 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:05,159 an agent since getten d up, but I had an agent and the money 256 00:15:05,159 --> 00:15:07,440 would go to her first. So that's what if the money goes to the 257 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:11,879 agency first and then it goes to the performer. So I'm guessing that's how 258 00:15:11,919 --> 00:15:16,240 they were able to pay off these women without Camille knowing, because they took 259 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:20,200 it out of whatever money came into the agency goes to the agency first, 260 00:15:20,240 --> 00:15:24,720 and then it goes to the entertainer. When you referenced Camille, you're referencing 261 00:15:24,799 --> 00:15:28,799 Camille Cosby, his wife who he's still married to all these years. On, 262 00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:33,759 Yes, his wife, Camille. So is it plausible at all that 263 00:15:33,799 --> 00:15:37,399 she didn't know? She packed up the kids and moved out of Beverly Hills 264 00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:41,639 to western Massachusetts where they still have this palatial estate. And I think in 265 00:15:41,679 --> 00:15:45,759 the early seventies, and he was traveling a lot on touring a lotons. 266 00:15:45,799 --> 00:15:48,159 So when he went to Chicago, he stayed at the Playboy Mansion, at 267 00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:50,799 the Playboy Mansion in Chicago, or he stayed at the one in Beverly Hills 268 00:15:50,799 --> 00:15:54,320 with Hugh Hefner. So maybe she knew he was cheating on her. But 269 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:58,240 I don't know if she's just still got blinders on. I'll told Laura Richards 270 00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:02,120 when I was on Tough about Cosby, when she was talking about coercive control, 271 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:04,840 I'd never thought of it in these terms. But Camille is six years 272 00:16:04,879 --> 00:16:10,639 younger than Cosby, completely dependent on him financially for their entire marriage. Is 273 00:16:10,759 --> 00:16:14,240 he just in control of everything with her? She seems like a fierce independent 274 00:16:14,279 --> 00:16:18,480 woman when you see her, But is she one of the things that I 275 00:16:18,519 --> 00:16:22,440 hadn't really thought about before I read the book, but once you mentioned it 276 00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:25,919 in the book, I couldn't stop thinking about it is how many other people 277 00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:29,440 had to have been complicit in this, and not just the agents, but 278 00:16:29,559 --> 00:16:33,919 like his handlers, his assistance, the people who would even just give his 279 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:36,879 card, take his luggage to his room or whatever. There had to have 280 00:16:36,919 --> 00:16:40,799 been so many other people who knew about this but were willing to stay quiet. 281 00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:44,960 And that's just unfathomable to me, just the idea that there were so 282 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:48,960 many people who knew this and it was a whole conspiracy of silence. And 283 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:52,200 if you look at p J. Maston when she walked into that like she'd 284 00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:56,360 known Cosby for a few years through the Playboy world because she was at Playboy 285 00:16:56,399 --> 00:16:59,120 Bunny Mom. When she went into his hotel room they were going to go 286 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:00,440 out to dinner and invited up first for a drink. There were three other 287 00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:03,759 people in the hotel room. I know who a couple of them are, 288 00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:06,720 and you would recognize those names, but she doesn't say it publicly for a 289 00:17:06,759 --> 00:17:08,880 reason. And then he says, would you like a drink? She says 290 00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:11,440 sure. He says, what Grand Marnie. Why didn't he just go to 291 00:17:11,519 --> 00:17:14,880 the barber drink. No, he calls down to the bell man, sends 292 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:17,359 the bellman out to get it, he brings it up. What did he 293 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:18,799 really send the bell man out for? And then they come up and they 294 00:17:18,839 --> 00:17:22,599 do it, and then she wakes up ten hours later and she's been raped. 295 00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:26,119 So she took two SIPs of that drink. Grand Marnie would not do 296 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:29,480 that to you. And there were three other guys in there at the time 297 00:17:29,559 --> 00:17:32,839 when all this happened, so they knew something was up. There are so 298 00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:36,519 many enablers. And Stacy Pinkerton who ended up meeting her at the sentencing, 299 00:17:36,599 --> 00:17:40,680 and she's in the epilogue. She met his driver Cam on the ride to 300 00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:42,839 the airport from her hotel. She's a flight attendant and he's already want to 301 00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:47,240 meet Phil Cosby, so he procured she served her up to him and then 302 00:17:47,359 --> 00:17:48,319 again, Oh, I'm going to mentor you. I'm going to help you. 303 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:51,400 Do you want to get a mob get your good New York. Nothing 304 00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:53,400 happens, they're safe. You gained that sense of security. But then, 305 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:56,240 as you know, to IMPLEMENTE was very interesting when I was on real crime 306 00:17:56,279 --> 00:18:00,599 profile because we're talking about Terree Serenis, and that's the only only one he 307 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:03,319 admitted to. Given Quaylutes too, but she was nineteen. That was an 308 00:18:03,319 --> 00:18:07,359 instantaneous thing. He saw her in the gift shop at the Las Vegas Hilton. 309 00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:11,400 She was there with her younger brothers and sisters, and he just walked 310 00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:12,319 up and put his arm around her and said, do you want to marry 311 00:18:12,319 --> 00:18:15,799 me? As when he spotted her, he just instantaneously decided that and then 312 00:18:15,839 --> 00:18:18,759 invited the show and got her back there. That's what Jim pointed out, 313 00:18:18,759 --> 00:18:22,400 And I hadn't really thought about that. That was one of He read her 314 00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:25,720 immediately and he could tell this was someone he could do this too. And 315 00:18:25,839 --> 00:18:29,359 Teresa herself will say that that's terrifying. So he had to have had these 316 00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:33,000 drugs with him almost always everywhere that he went, and he must have been 317 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:36,920 carrying that with him. Yeah, it's terrifying. Linda Traits another victim, 318 00:18:37,079 --> 00:18:40,480 almost victim. Actually, she's worked at Figaros, which is where and they 319 00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:42,240 said, Sunny, they all corroborate each other without even knowing each other, 320 00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:45,519 and without even knowing they corroborate each other. So she was a waitress at 321 00:18:45,559 --> 00:18:49,559 Figaros, which was where tomarrow Green said that he drugged her. He invite 322 00:18:49,559 --> 00:18:52,519 her, who's going to ride home? It takes her to the beach and 323 00:18:52,519 --> 00:18:56,400 he pulls out a briefcase filled with drug and wanted. So she manages to 324 00:18:56,440 --> 00:18:59,240 get away from him. And there's another woman. She was the only other 325 00:18:59,319 --> 00:19:02,559 victim we test fight at the first trial, and she worked for his agent 326 00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:06,319 at William Morris and she got fired after Cosby did this to her. But 327 00:19:06,599 --> 00:19:10,279 she says he was coaching her for acting. And he invites her to the 328 00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:12,759 Beverly Hills. Might have one of the big hotels there. They're supposed to 329 00:19:12,799 --> 00:19:15,200 have lunch. But then when she gets there, says, mister Cosby wants 330 00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:18,240 you to go to the bungalow. She goes to the bungalow. He opens 331 00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:22,200 that the doors wearing his white robe. Then he says to her, here, 332 00:19:22,319 --> 00:19:23,480 take this, and she says, I don't want to. He's his 333 00:19:23,599 --> 00:19:26,880 take it. Remember he's the most important client at William Worth's. He had 334 00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:30,839 his own private telephone line to her boss. That's how important he was. 335 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:34,319 So she takes it and she puts it under her tongue and he says lift 336 00:19:34,359 --> 00:19:37,000 your tongue up. He knew she was trying to hide it under her tongue, 337 00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:41,200 so she swallows it, and then she goes runs to the bathroom and 338 00:19:41,279 --> 00:19:45,400 she goes in there and there's prescription pillbottles everywhere. Right, Yeah, he 339 00:19:45,839 --> 00:19:48,480 seemed to take it with him wherever he went. You're listening to Mind over 340 00:19:48,599 --> 00:19:55,519 Murder. We'll be right back after this word from our sponsors. We're back 341 00:19:55,559 --> 00:20:00,079 here at Mind over Murder. This period between two thousand five and two fourteen. 342 00:20:00,599 --> 00:20:06,359 Talk to us about that. You're beyond an early adopter. You knew 343 00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:11,640 more about what was going on with Cosby as a journalist than I think probably 344 00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:15,680 anyone did. Yet the story doesn't really explode until nine years later. What's 345 00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:22,640 happening for you as you're moving forward in trying to advance this story and get 346 00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:29,480 to the bottom of Cosby's criminal serial rapes across the country. It's interesting because 347 00:20:29,519 --> 00:20:32,119 I was working for, as I said, the Philadelphia Daily News at the 348 00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:33,839 time, and I have said this over and over again in my interviews in 349 00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:37,039 the last few years, that there was no other news organization in the country 350 00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:41,000 that would have allowed me to pursue this story. In two thousand and five 351 00:20:41,079 --> 00:20:44,119 the way the Daily News did. And I know that for a fact because 352 00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:47,680 even when I was doing the podcast with the La Times and the horizog was 353 00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:51,079 great, but the La Times they were freaking out about the podcast at the 354 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:53,359 very last minute, and they wanted to take some of the women out. 355 00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:56,799 And I'm like, wait a second, he's convicted. And I said, 356 00:20:56,839 --> 00:21:00,160 you have written stories about every one of these women. Why are you right 357 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:03,720 now weight sixteen survivors in the podcast because it's on one place, I said, 358 00:21:03,759 --> 00:21:06,599 but you wrote this story about and this is how I Thinkazule values For 359 00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:10,799 his podcast. He wrote a story the fifty year history of Cosby's career juxtaposed 360 00:21:10,799 --> 00:21:12,720 with all the allegations against him. So you had him all one story. 361 00:21:12,799 --> 00:21:15,480 And I sent it to them like, oh yeah, so that's I think 362 00:21:15,519 --> 00:21:18,680 that everybody was scared of being sued. They were scared of losing access to 363 00:21:18,759 --> 00:21:22,160 him. Marty Singer, his attorney at the time, was calling me nearly 364 00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:25,880 everyday threatening to sue me. They were sending threatening letters to my newspaper, 365 00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:30,519 threatening to sue us, and my reporting caught the eye People Magazine. Ironically, 366 00:21:30,559 --> 00:21:33,279 I say ironically, because then they backed off the story too, but 367 00:21:33,319 --> 00:21:36,119 they came to me and wanted me to freelance for them because they were thinking 368 00:21:36,119 --> 00:21:38,279 about doing a cover story. My bosses were fine with me working for them 369 00:21:38,319 --> 00:21:41,680 as long as they got it first. So I started freelancing for them, 370 00:21:41,799 --> 00:21:45,119 and it was a really disillusioning experience for me. I was going on all 371 00:21:45,119 --> 00:21:49,480 these talk shows and I was getting beaten up by the co hosts and everything 372 00:21:49,519 --> 00:21:52,440 I was. A negative story was written about me and the Philly Weekly, 373 00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:56,079 and they quoted these journalism experts is saying the cover story I did onto Mark 374 00:21:56,119 --> 00:22:00,440 Greene shouldn't have been a cover story that he said. She said that it's 375 00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:04,079 stationalistic. I was just being ripped to shreds everywhere. And then the DA 376 00:22:04,079 --> 00:22:08,200 was threatening to have me arrested for my stories. Wow, so Bruce Caster, 377 00:22:08,519 --> 00:22:11,079 yes, you just tell people you could have be arrested for my stories. 378 00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:15,680 It was not like I was ever covered in glory in this. I 379 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:18,000 don't think I've everyone. It's funny watching all these other people who come into 380 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:21,799 the story ten years later. Now they're winning Enknies and doing all this, 381 00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:25,519 and I'm like, not me, not me, which is fine, that's 382 00:22:25,559 --> 00:22:27,720 not obviously not why I did it, but it was really hard, so 383 00:22:29,279 --> 00:22:33,160 I ended up doing other stories for people, and then my newspaper once again 384 00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:37,400 went through another series of it was it was going to be layoffs for buyouts, 385 00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:40,519 and they were there one of twenty five people to leave my news room. 386 00:22:40,559 --> 00:22:42,039 I can barely do my job now. I was getting very burnt out 387 00:22:42,079 --> 00:22:45,640 and the workload was incredible, so I decided to take it because I could 388 00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:48,400 freelance for people. It was a very steady freelance work, so I took 389 00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:51,200 out. It was like a year's salary, and I thought, well, 390 00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:53,279 like that Cosby book. And I quickly realized that book is never going to 391 00:22:53,319 --> 00:22:56,039 get published. Even the agents I was talking to were reluctant because there's a 392 00:22:56,119 --> 00:22:59,680 husband and wife team. The wife was a Cosby fan. I was like, 393 00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:02,319 you know, judging by what I just saw and all the pressure they 394 00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:04,319 put on my newspaper not to run these stories, I don't think this story 395 00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:07,359 wouldever, this book would ever get published. And years later, in two 396 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:11,079 thousand, gosh, I didn't know a couple of years earlier, Janice Dickinson 397 00:23:11,079 --> 00:23:15,119 it had put in her memoir about Bill Cosby drugging and rape in her and 398 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:18,720 Juda Threegan had her take it out because it's not She said, it's not 399 00:23:18,759 --> 00:23:22,640 that we couldn't because Cosby was known as being very litigious in the publishing industry. 400 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:25,160 And she said, it's not that we couldn't have won that lawsuit, 401 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:27,359 but we would have spent millions fighting it. So I stopped covering it for 402 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:30,119 people while I was working on a book proposal, and then I decided not 403 00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:33,759 to do the book, and people ended up putting me on staff in the 404 00:23:33,839 --> 00:23:36,759 interim. All of a sudden, story hadn't run at people like the one 405 00:23:36,799 --> 00:23:40,559 we've been working on. And then after Andreas settled her lawsuit, Andrea Constant 406 00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:45,240 filed a civil lawsuit against Cosby after the DA decided not to criminally charge him 407 00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:47,880 to November two thousand and six, she settled it. I went to my 408 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:51,079 editors, couldn't we run this story now? If these women are brave enough 409 00:23:51,079 --> 00:23:53,079 to have their names and photos be used, can't you be brave enough to 410 00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:56,039 run it? So they were still so worried about being sued by Cosby, 411 00:23:56,119 --> 00:23:59,559 but they ultimately ran up, but they did not put it on the cover. 412 00:24:00,079 --> 00:24:03,200 And they do a weekly press release where they tout all their exclusives, 413 00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:06,279 and it was not included there. So they did this very low key media 414 00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:10,880 strategy. Because of course, the other thing with celebrity magazines and news organizations 415 00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:14,480 in general is that the agency, like Bill Cosby's reps that William Morris, 416 00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:18,119 also represent all these other celebrities, so you take them off and you can 417 00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:22,200 lose access to all these other people. I was waiting for that word access, 418 00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:26,440 because that's these magazines are all about. Yeah, I packed up after 419 00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:27,920 that. I was like, Okay, the story's over. Andrea can't talk. 420 00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:32,160 She signed an NBA with her lawsuit. But I just couldn't get rid 421 00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:33,720 of the files. I packed them all up in a waterproof box and I 422 00:24:33,799 --> 00:24:37,880 put them in my basement, and I thought, someday this may come back, 423 00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:40,400 maybe there will be a new victim. I certainly didn't think it would 424 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:42,440 be Andrea's case coming back. I thought that was over, but I was 425 00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:45,440 just like, I just can't get rid of all this. And then October 426 00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:51,640 twenty fourteen, Hannibal Burrus, this young black rising comedian, comes to Philly 427 00:24:51,759 --> 00:24:56,160 and does a routine and starts talking about Bill Cosby being a rapist and his 428 00:24:56,319 --> 00:25:00,759 routine, and there's a phillymag reporter in the audience who starts recording it on 429 00:25:00,799 --> 00:25:03,400 his iPhone. He writes a story about it the next day for phillymag dot 430 00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:07,480 com with the video, and the next two days it just exploded and went 431 00:25:07,599 --> 00:25:11,440 viral, and that's what brought it all to the forefront. The difference was 432 00:25:11,759 --> 00:25:15,000 there was no social media in two thousand and five. My stories were going 433 00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:17,839 out in the night ride or wire which was like a wire service back then, 434 00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:19,720 and that was driving couseies people crazy because when flee when they called the 435 00:25:19,759 --> 00:25:22,279 yell at me, they were telling me that because it was popping up in 436 00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:26,880 places all over the country. So there was no social media in two thousand 437 00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:29,079 and five. The only thing out there was Facebook, and it was just 438 00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:33,079 for college students. But when phillymag dot com did a story in October twenty 439 00:25:33,279 --> 00:25:37,640 fourteen, it exploded on social media because there was a video too. So 440 00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:41,680 he did his story. Someone saw it on Facebook. Over They tracked this 441 00:25:41,799 --> 00:25:44,519 in the book because it was interesting to Mede and realized till I was doing 442 00:25:44,519 --> 00:25:48,960 the book how it all unfolded. The reporter put it on his Facebook page. 443 00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:52,279 Someone from I think BuzzFeed or Gawker saw it on Monday, and then 444 00:25:52,319 --> 00:25:56,319 they did something, and then someone else did something, and by the time 445 00:25:56,359 --> 00:26:00,359 Hannibal Burrows shows up that Wednesday for his interview with Howard Stern, it's just 446 00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:03,440 it's exploded. It's all over Twitter, it's everywhere, and that's what really 447 00:26:03,559 --> 00:26:08,079 made this thing expose. And then Cosby's people tried to combat the social media 448 00:26:08,079 --> 00:26:12,160 stuff by doing a meme contest, and instead people start making all these means 449 00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:15,680 about Cosby drugging women, so they had to take it down the same day. 450 00:26:15,759 --> 00:26:18,759 I loved reading about that. That was great. And also there were 451 00:26:18,759 --> 00:26:22,640 all these news organizations that were online news organizations like Gawker and so forth. 452 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:26,559 It didn't exist in two thousand and five, really BuzzFeed, and they were 453 00:26:26,599 --> 00:26:32,079 not afraid to take on Bill Cosby, where the mainstream media was still very 454 00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:37,599 reluctant to write anything. You should watch that Associated Press interview where he just 455 00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:40,559 basically tells them it took them two weeks to release it in IF number two 456 00:26:40,559 --> 00:26:41,759 thousand and fourteen, where he basically like, we're going to call so and 457 00:26:41,839 --> 00:26:45,440 so in LA and he tells his handler call them and let them know that 458 00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:48,799 you guys shouldn't use this, so you can see how much he controlled them 459 00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:52,119 in that, and that's what I was up against. Two. I was 460 00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:53,400 reading all the stories when I was doing my book, I'm like, wow, 461 00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:56,079 that Associated Press back in two thousand and five, which they did take 462 00:26:56,160 --> 00:27:00,680 up for it later because they failed to unseal emotion and injury lawsuit that had 463 00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:03,400 the deposition excerpts that led to this whole thing really exploding the following summer. 464 00:27:03,599 --> 00:27:07,200 But back then they were his toty. I mean, their stories were very 465 00:27:07,279 --> 00:27:11,079 much pro Cosby, and it was very disillusioning for me because I thought the 466 00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:15,440 media was who I worked for at the time. I didn't realize that the 467 00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:18,680 media is supposed to not be able to be pressured by powerful people, were 468 00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:22,799 supposed to take them on and not be afraid to take them down if need 469 00:27:22,839 --> 00:27:26,880 be, And it's just not that way anymore. You talked about the concept 470 00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:32,319 of trading up when you talked about the National Enquirer and how Cosby would say, 471 00:27:32,319 --> 00:27:36,160 I'll give you an exclusive interview if you don't run this story. I'd 472 00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:41,599 heard of the phenomenon before, but I didn't realize how willingly so many members 473 00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:44,039 of the press just jumped into it, were like, yeah, okay, 474 00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:48,680 we will not run this story about absolutely heinous behavior in exchange for an exclusive 475 00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:52,720 interview with Cosby. There were times when I was reading your book then my 476 00:27:52,799 --> 00:27:55,880 job just dropped. I was like, I can't believe, except I can, 477 00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:59,440 but I don't want to believe that the media would have behaved in this 478 00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:02,880 way. And it wasn't just the National Choir, it was ABC. Like, 479 00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:07,279 the only story that ABC did about Cosby during that time period when the 480 00:28:07,319 --> 00:28:10,720 investigation was going on was one of that said, oh him. It was 481 00:28:10,759 --> 00:28:14,359 from a source close to Cosby saying his the Andreas stories line up, except 482 00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:15,799 that he says it was consensual and she says it wasn't. And then Lo 483 00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:19,839 and befold they get the first TV sit down with him a couple months later, 484 00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:22,279 and they get accessed he makes it's even crazier. This is when he 485 00:28:22,319 --> 00:28:26,720 was going around the country, going into inner cities and lecturing black people about 486 00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:30,920 how to behave Yes, I remember in these town halls and you, as 487 00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:33,240 a journalist, you couldn't get in unless you were invited. And an ABC 488 00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:37,400 got into it and they got exit. They did a nightline segment on it 489 00:28:37,519 --> 00:28:40,559 all of this, and that's how it started out with me with his handlers. 490 00:28:40,599 --> 00:28:41,359 First it was, oh, we got to get you into one of 491 00:28:41,359 --> 00:28:45,920 these town halls. First they tried to carrot and then they try to stick, 492 00:28:45,079 --> 00:28:48,559 and when that offer slowly went away as my stories got more aggressive. 493 00:28:49,039 --> 00:28:52,599 But that is how they started out, Oh we got to get you into 494 00:28:52,599 --> 00:28:55,960 one of these town halls. And of course journalists were champing at the bit 495 00:28:56,039 --> 00:29:00,799 to get into these town halls. It was very controversial and everything that was 496 00:29:00,839 --> 00:29:03,480 going on at the time. One of the bookers for one of the TV 497 00:29:03,519 --> 00:29:06,319 shows I was on is the one who told me about trading up, because 498 00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:08,160 he said that they were getting a lot of pressure from Cosby's people not to 499 00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:11,400 have me on these shows talking about my stories, and pretty soon I wasn't 500 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:18,039 on them anymore. And it took a viral video of a stand up comedian 501 00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:25,559 brave enough to do a routine about Cosby being a rapist nine years after the 502 00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:30,559 fact, in a changed media environment to break this story wide open, something 503 00:29:30,599 --> 00:29:36,240 that you'd been working on for a decade. Yes, and a blackmail. 504 00:29:36,279 --> 00:29:38,079 I think that might have been important because Barbara Bowman, one of the victims 505 00:29:38,119 --> 00:29:41,799 we spoke to back. She was one of the original twelve Jane Does and 506 00:29:41,799 --> 00:29:45,480 Andrea Constant civil suit, one of the victims, and she had been in 507 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:48,240 Our People's Story in two thousand and six, and she wrote an off ed 508 00:29:48,279 --> 00:29:51,359 for the Washington Post like, why did it take a man for people to 509 00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:55,279 believe? Yeah? Isn't that sad? Yeah? I know. And even 510 00:29:55,279 --> 00:29:59,079 look at this like docuseries that Showtime just did, like we have been trying 511 00:29:59,119 --> 00:30:00,759 to do one too, and nobody will do it. But now that a 512 00:30:00,839 --> 00:30:06,680 man wanted to do a docuseries, and I think race because I think that 513 00:30:06,839 --> 00:30:11,720 Hollywood is still very reluctant to do anything attacking him, especially after George Floyd. 514 00:30:11,839 --> 00:30:17,119 That. I don't think it's a coincidence that's how that project went forward. 515 00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:22,839 It's just really sad. Did they ever threaten you directly or indirectly during 516 00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:26,400 this time when you were carrying this spanner? You were right the entire time 517 00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:32,160 and these women were telling the truth. Did they ever communicate with you directly 518 00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:34,799 or indirectly in any threatening way back in two thousand and five, Yeah, 519 00:30:34,839 --> 00:30:38,880 in that time frame, you were working this story before anybody else was, 520 00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:44,400 and so you're standing out there alone with these women who were his victims. 521 00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:48,240 How was it communicated to you, for example, when you didn't get bookings 522 00:30:48,359 --> 00:30:52,240 television bookings that you were expecting to get, and like, how was that 523 00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:56,079 characterized? Oh, honestly, could have cared less about the TV bookings that 524 00:30:56,119 --> 00:30:59,680 I went on there too, Just as I told Marty, like I told 525 00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:02,960 you, Singer Cosby's attorney was calling me near Labor day, screaming at me 526 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:04,519 and threatening me. And so you were on TV again last night. It 527 00:31:04,559 --> 00:31:07,160 was making him crazy. I bet you really enjoyed that. And I'm like, 528 00:31:07,319 --> 00:31:10,680 oh, yeah, Marty, I love working twelve hour days and I 529 00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:14,720 live an hour from Philly and then sticking around another couple hours to get five 530 00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:17,880 minutes on a show and then drive another hour home, and I don't get 531 00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:19,640 paid for it. Yeah, Marty, it's just a really fun I thinking 532 00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:22,359 ann getting nailed it by you every day. And they were. He was 533 00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:26,079 also sending threatening letters to my newspaper, threatening to sue us. And like 534 00:31:26,079 --> 00:31:29,839 I said, Bruce Caster, the DA was telling other reporters he could have 535 00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:33,799 me arrested for my stories. Now, it was very hard, but I 536 00:31:33,839 --> 00:31:37,319 believed in my reporting. I believe the women, so I didn't really care, 537 00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:44,400 but it was not fun. Now that you've know that, you've brought 538 00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:48,440 up Bruce Caster, let's go ahead and get into his role in Cosby's conviction 539 00:31:48,519 --> 00:31:53,279 being overturned, which I think said shock waves through everybody. What is the 540 00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:59,480 deal that he made that eventually led to Cosby's conviction being overturned? Can you 541 00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:02,599 explain for our listeners. Let me first say that there's no evidence that there 542 00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:07,680 was any such deal made. I'm convinced it's something that he came up with 543 00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:10,720 ten years later when the case exploded again back in two thousand and five, 544 00:32:12,279 --> 00:32:17,000 when in February, when Castor decided not to charge Cosby. Now let me 545 00:32:17,039 --> 00:32:21,000 tell you first, Bruce Caster is a person who DA who always held a 546 00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:22,519 press conference at a drop of the hat for everything. And the only time 547 00:32:22,519 --> 00:32:27,519 he held a press conference during this was after they interviewed Cosby, and it 548 00:32:27,599 --> 00:32:30,000 was very much clear that he was not going to be charging Cosby from the 549 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:34,039 tone of his comments, which is what brought forth Tomorrow Green, the second 550 00:32:34,039 --> 00:32:36,759 accuser, because she heard it and I used to work for a DA. 551 00:32:36,799 --> 00:32:38,519 That's DA speak for I'm not going to charge him. So when it came 552 00:32:38,559 --> 00:32:42,599 time to announce he was not going to charge him. He wrote a press 553 00:32:42,599 --> 00:32:45,839 release and released it. But what was unusual is that he wrote it himself. 554 00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:49,880 That was the only thing that was unusual. But it was still weird. 555 00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:52,359 But we got it. And he didn't tell Andrew's attorneys beforehand. Andrew 556 00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:55,759 didn't know. They were blindsided when the media just showed up. Ten years 557 00:32:55,799 --> 00:33:00,839 later, Bruce Caster, after this case explodes again the media and then after 558 00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:05,240 the DA who was the current DA, who was his first assistant back in 559 00:33:05,279 --> 00:33:07,799 two thousand and five, Risa Furman. She was Bruce Castor's first assistant back 560 00:33:07,799 --> 00:33:12,079 in two thousand and five. So she reopens the case. Now do you 561 00:33:12,119 --> 00:33:15,200 think she would have reopened that case if she had known there was a non 562 00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:19,039 prosecute, been aware that Castor was saying there was a non prosecution a deal 563 00:33:19,119 --> 00:33:21,839 back in two thousand and five. Oh hell, why would she have reopened 564 00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:24,799 that case? But she was running for judge that same year, so she 565 00:33:24,839 --> 00:33:29,240 hasn't really never spoken publicly about this. So she reopens it, and then 566 00:33:29,279 --> 00:33:30,200 a month or two later, when it breaks the news, then all of 567 00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:34,839 a sudden, Bruce Casters saying, Russa, don't you remember when I told 568 00:33:34,839 --> 00:33:38,119 you back in two thousand and five, we agreed never to prosecute Bill Cosby 569 00:33:38,119 --> 00:33:40,319 on this and she's no, Bruce, I don't remember that. And you 570 00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:44,720 document everything, where's a document? A document? Was the press relief? 571 00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:49,119 It doesn't make any sense. And in Pennsylvania no other states, you have 572 00:33:49,279 --> 00:33:52,480 to have an agreement to prosecute. It has to be a written agreement, 573 00:33:52,519 --> 00:33:54,960 has to be signed off on by a judge. You don't have the power 574 00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:59,680 as a district attorney to make that offer yourself, but he didn't. Anyway, 575 00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:02,640 it's an existent So that's where that all came from. The trial judge 576 00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:07,400 held a very long hearing on this very issue. Bruce cast testified for several 577 00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:10,480 hours, so did Andrew's attorneys testified, and the judge ended up finding him 578 00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:14,920 not credible, and the one attorney of Cosmus who was still alive, not 579 00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:17,159 credible. That's where those issues are supposed to be dealt with at that level, 580 00:34:17,199 --> 00:34:22,280 because the pensility to Supreme Court isn't sitting in a courtroom listening to all 581 00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:25,400 the evidence. You can't determine credibility through paper. They'll leave. The trial 582 00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:30,760 judge can do that. So basically the pensilian Supreme Court overstepped with that decision. 583 00:34:30,159 --> 00:34:34,719 I wrote a long piece on it on my sub stack about how there's 584 00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:37,199 a lot of things. The one thing I can tell you about the decision 585 00:34:37,199 --> 00:34:38,800 it was not based on the law. I don't know what kind of deal 586 00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:43,679 was cut. I don't know something, but there was some kind of deal 587 00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:46,239 cut because there's that decision was not based on the law. There was a 588 00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:52,639 very weird quote from Bruce Caster where he said he was the sovereign Minister of 589 00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:55,400 Justice. I think that's the sovereign. Yes. I sat in that hearing 590 00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:59,199 and we were all just going, aren't you kidding me? Yes, he 591 00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:02,000 said that he as the sovereign of Montgomery County, he had the power to 592 00:35:02,079 --> 00:35:07,159 make this deal. Yeah. I remember thinking how ludicrous this was. Yes, 593 00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:09,599 and that's why he was found not credible, because the judge was just 594 00:35:09,679 --> 00:35:13,719 and Yeah, and that's why he was found not credible. The judge did 595 00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:15,679 not believe him. And he also said that he told Andrew. He told 596 00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:20,159 Riesa to tell Andrew Andrew. He said that Andrew's attorneys had signed off on 597 00:35:20,199 --> 00:35:22,280 it, and they got on the stand and said, no, we didn't, 598 00:35:22,599 --> 00:35:24,719 we did not sign off on this. Honestly, I was surprised he 599 00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:30,440 didn't get charged with perjury. So in the end, how is it that 600 00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:36,000 Cosby's conviction was overturned and he was released from prison? How does that happen? 601 00:35:36,599 --> 00:35:37,480 I wish I could tell you, but all I can tell you I 602 00:35:37,519 --> 00:35:42,119 don't know what happened with the Pennsylvania Supreme Court. I watched the oral arguments 603 00:35:42,159 --> 00:35:45,280 hearing and at one point one of the justices actually walked away and shut their 604 00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:50,159 camera off for ten minutes after they asked one of the Montgomery County prosecutors a 605 00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:52,519 question, and the tone was so hostile, and they're all pretty old. 606 00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:57,039 I said, one thing I'm thinking is they're all Bill Cosby fans, Like 607 00:35:57,079 --> 00:36:00,679 they're all fans of the Cosby Show. They're in that age group or maybe 608 00:36:00,679 --> 00:36:04,760 even further back to like his albums and stuff. Because there's just there was 609 00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:09,000 zero that was not based on the law. They overstepped. They really overstepped 610 00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:12,519 with that decision, and the only way to undo it it would be to 611 00:36:12,559 --> 00:36:14,679 go to the US Supreme Court, and they declined to hear it. And 612 00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:17,239 I understand that it is it's got to be an issue that applies to other 613 00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:21,360 cases and This is just one that is again, it's not based on the 614 00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:24,079 law. So I don't know why they did it, but there is someday, 615 00:36:24,119 --> 00:36:27,360 I swear about it, I will find out. Because there it was 616 00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:30,519 not based on the law. There was some kind of sweetheart deal cut. 617 00:36:30,639 --> 00:36:32,719 I don't know what it was, but that's what happened. We do know 618 00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:38,199 here that in the late part of June, he was convicted for drugging and 619 00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:44,719 assaulting Shooty, who's back in nineteen seventy five. So what is that going 620 00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:45,800 to mean for him? Is that going to get him back to prison? 621 00:36:46,119 --> 00:36:50,519 No, that was a civil lawsuit. So yeah, so he has to 622 00:36:50,559 --> 00:36:52,920 pay five hundred thousand dollars, but he is also going to appeal that. 623 00:36:53,079 --> 00:36:55,239 But that's the thing with Cousbee. Every time he lost, I think he 624 00:36:55,280 --> 00:37:00,039 was up to lawyers twenty four and twenty five by the time we got to 625 00:37:00,199 --> 00:37:02,719 the Pennsylvanian Supreme Court appeals, because every time he'd lose around he would fire 626 00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:07,159 them and get new ones. He still owes money to some of his previous 627 00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:10,039 attorneys, or he did at one point. There's another Lily Bernard, another 628 00:37:10,079 --> 00:37:14,639 Cosby survivor, just filed a lawsuit against him. Back in October. Because 629 00:37:14,679 --> 00:37:16,719 what's happening is there are several states that have passed what they call look back 630 00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:21,719 laws which give a sexual abuse victim. Some like the one in New Jersey 631 00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:23,400 was for sexual abuse victims. It gave him like a one or two year 632 00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:28,840 window to file a lawsuit against their attackers, no matter how long the goal 633 00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:30,519 it was. So that's how Lily was able. Hers was like in the 634 00:37:30,639 --> 00:37:34,440 nineties, and that's how Lily was able to file it in New Jersey just 635 00:37:34,519 --> 00:37:37,960 last October. Now what's interesting is New York just passed look back law for 636 00:37:38,039 --> 00:37:40,800 a year or so. Stay tuned. I have a feeling there's going to 637 00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:45,800 be some more filed against Cosby based on that lawby and passed, But there's 638 00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:50,119 civil lawsuits. They are not criminals. What some of the Cosby survivors did 639 00:37:50,159 --> 00:37:53,599 after the case broke again in twenty fourteen is they got the statute of limitations 640 00:37:53,639 --> 00:37:59,639 laws extended or eliminated for criminal cases. It got eliminated in California, it 641 00:38:00,079 --> 00:38:04,599 extended in Nevada, and it got extended in Colorado. They did that and 642 00:38:04,599 --> 00:38:08,039 it didn't benefit them. It was not retroactive, but at least it's done. 643 00:38:08,159 --> 00:38:13,760 If he's done anything more recently. There's possibilities that he if victims come 644 00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:15,119 forward, But why would they, Why would they? Look at what just 645 00:38:15,079 --> 00:38:20,280 happened, look at how poor Andrea was dragged through the mud. I write 646 00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:22,719 about this in the book. First of all, I think predators usually choose 647 00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:25,800 victims they think will be believed. They choose them from unequal power status, 648 00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:30,400 or lower income level, or just there's or a vulnerability. But then tomorrow 649 00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:34,599 Green every bad thing she had ever done since it happened got leaked to the 650 00:38:34,639 --> 00:38:37,000 media, and the media ran with it. And I said, one of 651 00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:39,920 the experts I spoke was, said, that's why rape shieldballs were created to 652 00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:44,360 protect this from happening in court. What happens now is defense attorneys just go 653 00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:45,840 to the media. And I said. The ironic part, though, so 654 00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:49,559 you have to beat the perfect victim to be able to be believed. The 655 00:38:49,599 --> 00:38:52,639 ironic part is Andrea Constan was that perfect victim. She had no skeletons in 656 00:38:52,679 --> 00:38:55,840 her closet. So the COSME team made up lies about her in two thousand 657 00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:59,360 and five, and the media ran with it. They ended up running her 658 00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:02,719 name and photo without her permission, which does not happen with sexual abuse six 659 00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:07,119 victims. So there's a double standard, and that's what's so sad in the 660 00:39:07,159 --> 00:39:09,639 media today. They will break someone like Andrew Constant over the coals because they 661 00:39:09,679 --> 00:39:14,320 know she doesn't have the means to sue them, but they will not take 662 00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:17,000 on someone like Bill Cosby because they're terrified of being sued. This was a 663 00:39:17,079 --> 00:39:21,320 rough book to read, Nikki, It really was. It's beautifully written. 664 00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:24,480 I enjoyed reading it because it gave me a lot more insight into Cosby and 665 00:39:24,599 --> 00:39:30,400 his crimes, but it was a rough read. It made me infuriated reading 666 00:39:30,599 --> 00:39:34,679 these awful attacks on Andrea and all the other women, and how Cosby's lawyers 667 00:39:34,719 --> 00:39:37,679 raked them over the coals. This could not have been easy for you to 668 00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:40,320 live with. How did you live with this from two thousand and five till 669 00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:45,119 now? How do you have the emotional fortitude to deal with this? I 670 00:39:45,199 --> 00:39:49,039 don't think that I could have. I think it was somewhat easier in two 671 00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:52,519 fourteen when all the other media suddenly jumped on the bandwagon and I wasn't alone 672 00:39:52,559 --> 00:39:57,199 anymore, But that brought its own set of problems. It was funny, 673 00:39:57,320 --> 00:40:00,440 actually, just a so typical to media because of course they were other journals 674 00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:02,639 south or town And like I tried to warn people about Cosby back in two 675 00:40:02,679 --> 00:40:07,719 thousand and seven, I like you now he didn't or if you did, 676 00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:08,880 so what I did? All this in two thousand and five, I mean, 677 00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:13,119 there was the Philly Mag reporter, another Philly Mag reporter, Bob Huber, 678 00:40:13,199 --> 00:40:15,800 who wrote a story where he actually got into one of Cosby's town halls. 679 00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:20,039 So actually he took that carre at at first, but then included stuff 680 00:40:20,039 --> 00:40:22,960 about the victims. But he lifted from my daily news stories for his Philly 681 00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:28,159 Mag story and didn't attribute it, and then they ended up having to run 682 00:40:28,159 --> 00:40:30,239 a correction about it after I waste hell about it. I'm sorry for my 683 00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:34,199 language. In a way, it was glad to see that the victims were 684 00:40:34,199 --> 00:40:37,719 being treated so well. But then the other media come in and now then 685 00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:42,400 they start winning awards for their coverage. They won Emmys, and you just 686 00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:45,199 have to laugh at some point, and so, yeah, story, but 687 00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:49,280 I was glad that it was getting the attention it deserved. It was That's 688 00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:51,559 what I thought would happen in two thousand and five, and I'd seen it 689 00:40:51,599 --> 00:40:53,239 happen with other stories. There would be these eyebrokes and stories and all the 690 00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:57,079 other media would join it become this big thing. It would put pressure on 691 00:40:57,119 --> 00:41:00,000 the DA to do something, and so I was glad to see it happen. 692 00:41:00,199 --> 00:41:02,199 In a decade later, it led more and more victims to come forward, 693 00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:06,360 and they kept the pressure on and then the AP came in and they 694 00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:08,079 filed a motion to get and I actually did talk to people like, hey, 695 00:41:08,159 --> 00:41:10,800 let's follow emotion to see if we can get those documents unsealed. Now 696 00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:15,519 they weren't interested. It's not how People magazine operates, because that's what we 697 00:41:15,559 --> 00:41:16,400 would have done. If I was at the Daily News, we would have 698 00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:20,400 been going to court to get the same thing the Associated Press did. So 699 00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:22,320 I'm glad that they did that, because that's what blew this open even more, 700 00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:27,800 and reopening Andrea's case was because there were his own admissions about doing this 701 00:41:28,119 --> 00:41:30,280 to women, or at least about giving drugs to womeny one Day's sexable. 702 00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:35,360 I'm glad you can see the positive. In other words, that media pile 703 00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:39,880 on it probably did have some benefit. Even though you had to say to 704 00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:45,519 yourself, where have you guys been for the last nine years? And then 705 00:41:45,559 --> 00:41:47,280 all these stories are breaking in October fourteen, and I'm like, it's like 706 00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:51,880 deja vu all over. I reported all of this ten years ago, Yeah, 707 00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:55,000 nobody cared, and now it's oh my god, it was surreal. 708 00:41:55,239 --> 00:41:59,079 It was surreal, but again for their sake, I was glad that they 709 00:41:59,119 --> 00:42:02,960 were finally being heard. What's next for you? Now? I am working 710 00:42:04,039 --> 00:42:07,199 on a few different projects. I have some book writing projects I'm doing, 711 00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:09,840 and so just nothing I can really talk about. But I haven't given up 712 00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:15,199 onstating. So will this be in the true crime genre or elsewhere both. 713 00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:20,280 I've got a couple of different things going and I'm developing some podcasts too, 714 00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:23,079 So trying to just a lot of Yeah, I work for an agency where 715 00:42:23,159 --> 00:42:28,079 I write books for an agency. And there's another one I've been working on 716 00:42:28,119 --> 00:42:30,880 a proposal for that is true crime. That's very explosive, but it just 717 00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:34,320 needs more work. It needs more investigating before I'll put my name on it. 718 00:42:34,519 --> 00:42:37,199 But it's another explosive one. It's another one where there's the good cops 719 00:42:37,199 --> 00:42:42,480 who are doing their best to get the truth out and then they're bas again 720 00:42:42,519 --> 00:42:45,360 with the corners and the metal go examiners. Ruling these is undetermined, which 721 00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:50,840 essentially means nothing gets done and these are murders. Oh okay, yeah, 722 00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:54,880 well so lots more to look forward to from you in the coming months and 723 00:42:55,000 --> 00:43:00,920 years. So the book is called Chasing Cosby the Done follow America's Dad. 724 00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:04,880 Where can we find it wherever you buy books, your local bookstore, you 725 00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:08,719 can ask for Amazon. Just it's available wherever you buy books. Excellent. 726 00:43:08,800 --> 00:43:13,599 And then your other book, which we have talked about previous to this on 727 00:43:13,639 --> 00:43:17,320 the podcast, is Victim f And that was with Aaron Quinn and Denise Huskins. 728 00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:21,719 Correct, yes, I co authored with them. Yes, that one 729 00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:24,960 was mine. I was crazy. I literally sat and read it for five 730 00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:28,840 straight hours, did not move, did not put it down, and just 731 00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:32,039 sat there and read it in one fell swoop. It is amazing. We 732 00:43:32,039 --> 00:43:35,400 would love to have you back on the pod to talk about that one if 733 00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:37,280 you're willing. Oh, of course, I'd love to. I think that's 734 00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:42,719 where the phrase unput down a bowl comes. So, I mean it's like 735 00:43:42,760 --> 00:43:45,440 one of these things you're like, truth is stranger than fiction the more, 736 00:43:45,639 --> 00:43:49,599 especially knowing Aaron and Denise and the type of people they are and what incredible, 737 00:43:49,639 --> 00:43:52,800 extraordinary people they are that this happened to them is just mind boggling. 738 00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:58,039 It really gives you pause about what chances the average person have with the police 739 00:43:58,079 --> 00:44:00,880 in a situation like this, if it can happen. That Yeah, a 740 00:44:00,119 --> 00:44:05,639 most amazing, mind boggling story. And we'd love to have you back to 741 00:44:05,679 --> 00:44:07,360 talk about it. Okay, I'd love to do it. Well, it's 742 00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:10,320 going to do it for this episode of mind Over Murder with Nikki Egan. 743 00:44:10,639 --> 00:44:22,880 Thank you so much for joining us. We'll see you next time. Mind 744 00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:29,960 Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and Another Dog Productions. Our executive 745 00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:35,280 producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. 746 00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:39,400 Our theme music is by Kevin McLeod. Mind Over Murder is distributed in 747 00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:45,400 partnership with Coral Space Media. You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, 748 00:44:45,599 --> 00:44:49,920 or Instagram. You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway Murders on 749 00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:53,840 Facebook, and finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at Bill Thomas 750 00:44:53,880 --> 00:45:21,559 five six. Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder. 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