You are listening to the IFH podcast Network. For more amazing filmmaking and screenwriting
podcasts, just go to ifahpodcastnetwork dot com. Welcome to the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast,
Episode number three sixty two. Don't work on your job, work on
yourself. Make yourself much more valuable to the marketplace. Jim Rohan broadcasting from
a dark, windowless room in Hollywood when we really should be working on that
next draft. It's the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, showing you the craft and business
of screenwriting while teaching you how to make your screenplay bulletproof. And here's your
host, Alex Ferrari. Welcome, Welcome to another episode of the Bulletproof Screenwriting
Podcast. I am your humble host Alex Ferrari. Now, today's show is
sponsored by Bulletproof script Coverage. Now. Unlike other script coverage services, Bulletproof
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com. Now, I know a lot of you have watched Disney Plus's show
The Mandalorian, which is a Star Wars the first Star Wars television series,
and it was one of the biggest shows. I am a tremendous fan,
as many of you already know, But what I was really interested in was
the virtual production techniques and technologies that they use and implemented to make a giant,
very big budget looking show on a budget. Now, mind you,
on a budget is relative in the Star Wars universe. But let's just say
that they were able to put together hours and hours of content for a less
budget than you would have to spend on a standard Star Wars movie. Now,
I was like, this is all great and again, you know,
just like when the t Rex showed up in Jurassic Park in nineteen ninety three.
That's really great, but how is that going to help us as independent
filmmakers. Well, today's guest is someone who is going to help you get
access to this insane technology on a budget. Now, today we are speaking
to Renee Armador from aar Wall and ar Wall is one of the industry leaders
in this virtual production technology. And when I saw their newest product, my
mouth dropped to the floor. They have created the ar Wall Home Studio,
which allows you, as an independent creator, as an independent filmmaker, to
use same or similar technologies to what they used on the Mandalorian at a very
very affordable price. We're talking less than the cost of a red camera.
Now, Renee and I get into all of the technology, how independent filmmakers
can use it, what it would do for your production value, How do
you get those amazing backgrounds that you're going to be able to move left and
right? I mean, is it's just an insane, insane world that we're
walking into. We are that much closer to literally just shooting on a holid
deck from Star Trek, which is basically an entire room that looks and it
feels almost like a real room, but it's all holographic. We are very
We're just getting closer and closer to eventually being able to shoot on the Holid
deck, and this technology is that next step forward. So, without any
further ado, please enjoy my conversation with Renee Almador. I'd like to welcome
to the show, Renee Amador. How are you doing, Renee? I'm
doing just fine. Thanks for having me, Alex oh brother man, thank
you for being on the show. Man, I truly appreciate I am.
I have to say before we get started, man, I am such a
fan of what you guys are doing today are It's it's mind blowing, absolutely
mind blowing. But we're going to get into all of that in this episode.
But before we start, I have to tell the story because we were
talking about it before we got on. Yes, and please tell, please
tell the audience how we know each other. Yeah, So, I mean
I think you reached out because we had some big press recently. We came
out with some big announcement recently, and just this morning, I was thinking,
Alex for our is such a familiar name. It's the type of name
you don't forget, right, So I was thinking, this sounds so familiar.
I went back to my personal email from like you know, over ten
years ago, and went and looked and put your name in and found I've
been on your newsletter since about two thousand and seven with a Nigma factory.
And I think it was originally because you were kicking butt on the DVX one
hundred A and then the HVX two hundred and you were one of the few
people that was doing visual effects intensive stuff on those cameras, so we we
wanted to use those same cameras, so we were following you to see what
you were up to, what your workflows were, And then you came up
with a bunch of like workshops too, and I think I actually might have
purchased them. But I think the original way that I that I heard about
you is we we had a we had a couple of films go to Dragon
Calm two thousand and seven. Your your shorts were there as well. So
once I saw those, and I think we were at actually in contention against
each other, it was like you won first price, I won second price.
Wow, that's awesome. Yeah, So that's how I first learned it.
I was like, the hell, this guy, you know, why,
why why did you get first place. What the hell's going on here?
I got to watch these things exactly. That's hilarious. That's I have
an email here, first email from your newsletter June two thousand and seven.
What a blast from the past. I was when you told me this story.
I was absolutely floored because I, first of all, I can't believe
you have email from two thousand and seven, So that alone, there's issues
that you need to work out. But but that and then you read the
email was about my second film, Sin and I'll you know, hey,
guys, I want to let you know about a new film. It is
so funny how that little short film I did in two thousand and five people
still talk to me about it and still reach it like when I and it
happens more often than you would think, Like I the last thing I thought
of when when I rang in to do our interview today as we were going
to go, hey, dude, I like I remember broken, Like I
just didn't. It's hilarious. That's amazing. Yeah, it's pretty pretty amazing,
man, But thank you for sharing that insane say good stand. Just
to be clear, I'm a fan, and that's awesome. Here you know,
I'm here just to interview you. Basically, I'll come on your podcast
or anytime you like the ar podcast, anytime you want. So, how
did you get into the film business in the first place. Yeah, so
I think originally my dad, my dad wanted to be a filmmaker way back
in the seventies and ended up going into computer engineering instead. So he was
one of the top software engineers for the defense industry for about forty years.
But through that entire period, from even a young age, that spirit of
filmmaking was still inside him, and he definitely, you know, imbued my
entire upbringing, my my my media culture with that love of cinema. So,
you know, I grew up, you know, before the age of
ten watching Ballini and Kirasawa and all these intense films, just really just thinking
like, Okay, this is just this is culture, this is what art
is, not really knowing that, like it's pretty unusual to get that type
of education as a young child in cinema. So at about the age of
ten, I you know, made a pretty determined statement to my family,
like I am going to be a filmmaker. I'm going to be a director,
you know, screenwriter and make these projects do some TV do some film,
you know, just do what I can and and really I think it
was a couple of films that did that for me. Obviously, I think
like science fiction films were pretty big for me Star Wars. But then there's
one particular which peopull my laugh at, which is in the David Lynch movie.
I happen to own that because my dad was a pretty big David Lynch
fan, and I don't think i'd seen any of the other films. It's
the first film i'd seen of his. And when I just in the first
ten minutes of that film, you see the set design and the production design
that they brought to that project, and you just think somebody's job is to
get paid to make those sets, and just to think how much fun and
how much amazing creativity goes into that type of collaboration. I thought that that's
something I have to be involved with, because you know, as a kid,
you look out into the rest of the world and you're like, who
else is approaching that level of creativity and that level of storytelling and imagination.
It's not really something that you see out in the world. We'll be right
back after a word from our sponsor and now back to the show. So
film for me was that moment where I realized dream and imagination and reality and
career could all come together into one package and really create something special. So
that that's how I really got started. And then just just kind of thinking
of that mentality, uh at a very young age. And then I made
my first project obviously uh for us for a high you know, trying to
uh get rid of doing homework. That it was awesome. We make a
video. We made a video. I think my first video was called Darren
Gatto. It had to be in Spanish because it was for Spanish class and
it was just it was basically kind of like a lost highway ripoff, like
some weird surreal thing where people or you know, in ark lighting, looking
intense, that type of thing. And that was a lot of fun.
And one of the things that happened when I was making it is literally everyone
said to me, hey, you've done this before, Like I can tell
that you've done this before, and I would be like, never done it
before. Just watched every single behind the scenes, you know, DVD thing
that I could get my hands on. So that's how I got started.
And then in senior year of high school, I made a very popular video
called Real Ultimate Power the official Ninja movie, which was based on their website
called Reultimate Power dot net, which is very popular at the time, and
that got over three million views that video. This was in two thousand and
two in high school, so I personally set up the how'd you get the
views? Where were those views? Because YouTube wasn't even around yet, you're
correct. So there's two things. One is it's an adaptation of a website
into a video, which is something that hadn't really been done before. And
in fact, we found out that the only other projects who have done it
at the time with something called Undercover Brother, which I think you may remember
that was actually a website to begin with. So we were in this.
We were part of this little wave in the beginning of viral content where basically
we're adapting websites into videos. So we got linked on the front page of
that website and that's where a lotibility viewership came from. However, there's a
there's another component of it, which is that I was very active in four
chan in something awful dot com forms which were kind of the precursor to like
Reddit and like meme groups and that type of stuff and actually into something awful
form groups with B B YOB and F y A D. I can't say
what those mean on air, you know, there are acronyms. People who
know something off of will know these. I was a regular on these and
being able to put the content out, you know, I would be making
memes shareables. This was ten years before you know, people even knew what
a meme or shrifber was. I'll be making them for the film, for
my art, putting them on the website, being like, look at how
ridiculous this is, putting a link to the video, and that's how we
made it have That's what we reached millions of views, and that was such
a new strategy at that time. And what was funny is ten years later
I was doing exactly that for Fox, which is so weird. I was
doing exactly that for Fox actually for American Idol, for one of the top
media brands in the world. I was doing that meme and Shareble's creation with
so going full circle. But that's really how I got started. I'm doing
my own distribution, setting up the web, posting myself and then back when
you had to think about that type of stuff, and then that project was
extremely absurdist. It was very similar. I would say it was inspired kind
of like by the Christopher Guest movies, Waiting for Guffman, that type of
stuff. I'm a really big fan of Christopher Guest, just the whole that
insane, improv energy where anything can happen, and that sensation of awkwardness.
I kind of see him almost as the spiritual successor to Felini in the way
that he casts off oddball characters that look odd and just give you a certain
feeling, and then they go off and do something that's highly unusual or just
highly tense, and it gives you such an intense narrative feeling in those moments.
I really enjoy that type of stuff. So if you know that about
me, a lot will make sense about my films because they tend to have
an observice, really irreverent and kind of a screwball sensibility to them. Well
that's that's awesome. And I did the same meme situation in two thousand and
four, two thousand and five when I they did my short films. It
was, I mean, that was such the wah wah west Man. It
was such the wah wah West back then, and it's hard for people to
understand that. You know, you couldn't just put your film up like you
literally couldn't. There was no YouTube, and even YouTube sucked in two thousand
and five, like the quality was atrocious. It's the technology just wasn't there,
let alone to stream. You know, you know what I did with
send that second film your email? I actually I actually wanted to sell it
on iTunes, but couldn't because there was no technology to get it up on
iTunes. So what I did was I would sell the download of an iTunes
file, the m m V four file or whatever the iTunes format is.
I would sell it on my on my website and then they would click the
dollar ninety nine to rent it, and then they would double click on it
it would open up in the iTunes app back then, Yes, I mean,
I mean I think you know, remembering back at that time and how
this how difficult distribution was online. That's a genius smooth I used this.
This is really going to dated. I used something called real player. Oh
I remember, of course. Yeah, the web, the web, the
the flat it was flash based, right or close, I'm not sure.
If it was flash based, but I know you were a player or yeah,
something like that. Yeah, it was JavaScript, possibly flash or you
know, shockwave or whatever the hell they have dream exactly So yeah, I
mean you would have to build the actual infrastructure of distribution at that time,
and it was such a pain in the butt. And when YouTube came along,
really the original people might not realize it's the original pitch that YouTube had
wasn't even as a video destination. It was as a pitch to video creators.
Hey, we'll make it super easy for you to get your video online.
Then you can embed it wherever you want. You know, you're there
everywhere. It wasn't meant to be a destination site. It was only later
when people started linking directly to the YouTube page instead of their own website with
the video embedded, that it started to become a video destination site. And
that was very interesting to see happen in real time. No, it's it's
in crazy. And I also, by the way I have I think and
I want someone to tell me differently, but I think I have the first
filmmaking tutorials up on YouTube. I wouldn't be surprised because it was five Yeah,
I think I bought them, and I remember it being I remember it
being unusual, like I hadn't heard like I'm trying to think, like it
was almost it almost felt infomercially, you know, like you know, like,
oh, you know, learn how to meditate or something. You know,
you would see that kind of stuff on TV, but you didn't.
You know, it's not like now where you know masterclass and you know how
to cook and learn how to fist or that, or it wasn't a common
thing. And the fact that you were doing something on media creation was pretty
unusual because at that point it had just become viable to do, to do
like fully digital media, and then you were you had realized, oh man,
I like I can you know, do screen caps, and I can
do all sorts of stuff, and so you were showing the entire process in
an interesting way. Then I don't think I had been done before, Like
where did you learn how to do that? Because I don't think there's like
a post guy. I was a post guy, dude, I was.
I was editing since ninety six, so I just kind of understood the post
production aspect of things. And then I have a marketing head and that's how
it kind of all combined that with everything else I've done in my life.
It kind of came up and started doing it. I always just figured out
like and even then I still didn't get it because I left YouTube. I
should have stayed. I should have stayed, and it's kept making. If
I would have made tutorials, just kept making tutorial videos, I would own
own the filmmaking tutorial space. But I but I'm not. I'm not a
teacher. I don't I'm a filmmaker. Spielberg didn't do tutorial videos. Why
should I? And that was the ego Spipe speaking. But who knew?
No one, yes, one, No one knew, No one knew exactly.
But so so we're here to talk about your company that you've co founded
ar Wall first of all, which is, if I'm correct about it's a
company that deals with augmented reality and versions of that. Can you explain to
people what augmented reality is? Absolutely? So we call ourselves an ar XR
company, which basically means augmented reality and what they call extended reality or some
people call it mixed reality. And basically what this means is we're combining live
action elements in real time with CG elements, and it's different from traditional visual
effects, which is entirely a time shifted process where you shoot and then you
do the compositing at a later point. So we're not we're not in that
game. We're in the game of capturing it on set live, whether it's
a live stream, a live broadcast, or live to tape type of scenario.
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor and now back to
the show where you want to give the impression of a live broadcast. But
the whole point is you walk away from set with the final shot, with
the final pixel. And that's a fundamental shift in the way that people have
been conceiving of virtual production, because I think when it comes to film and
TV, prior to us coming out to the scene, most people's heads were
at pre visualization, which means, you know, you hire the third floor
we worked who has worked on Star Wars and Avengers films, one of our
one of our sister companies that that we love working with, and so you
you have a temporary composite which isn't even meant to be like a full uh
like fully one tracked a composite. It's meant to be reminiscent and just to
give the the filmmakers on set like an idea of what it's going to be
like. So that's not final pixel and that's where real time graphics have been
relegated and film and TV for quite some time, about ten years. When
we came on the scene in twenty sixteen, there was no solution that was
fast enough to do like the window illusion and camera tracking the way that we
did. There was some stuff for experientials. Unreal had something called the R
Cluster, and then Barco had developed something for industrial use that used goggles with
like big ping pong balls on them, that type of thing, but nobody
had looked at how do you combine those experiential and industrial tools that were being
developed for commercial purposes into the media industry so that you could actually get the
CG in a realistic way, sutured behind the live action actors and sets.
So we saw that as our original challenge and we actually accomplish that in twenty
seventeen and immediately signed a Netflix and NBC Universal project called Knife Flyers, which
was our first project. And to describe what we're up to here, basically,
what's happening is if you think of traditional rear projection, you have a
giant screen. It's giving the sensation that the actor of the sets are in
a location in which they're not actually so, in space or moving or in
a forest or whatever the case may be. The problem with rear projection is
as you move, as you transpose the camera move the position of the camera,
you begin to see the static rigidity of the too V plate behind the
actor and set where the rear projection screen is. And that's because obviously the
illusion of parallax is broken, right and this and the SKU is not correct,
the perspective is not correct. So what we realized was with the new
real time, like the new advancements in immersive in VR and AR and that
type of stuff that were happening in twenty sixteen, there would be an opportunity
now to actually track the camera's position as it moved and update the vantage point
onto the rear projection plate so that in under forty one milliseconds, the time
that it takes for a shutter to open and close, we can actually update
the background dynamically so that it always looks like you're looking into a deep window
illusion like a deep environment on that stream. So it's basically a way to
combine traditional rear projection technology with new immersive tracking technology. And that's that's what
our vision is. So I can only imagine what someone like Stanley Kubrick would
do with this if he was alive today, because he was one of the
I mean a rear projection been around forever, but I think Stanley was one
of the first to really take it to a whole other I still remember two
thousand and one. Yeah, it's flawless. I mean you can't even tell
that it's real projection exactly. And actually that was our thesis statement when we
were going out and getting initial clients and getting financing and everything like that,
is we would show Wizard of Oz. Actually, and if you the Wizard
of Oz tornado sequence, everybody can this picture the spatial reality of that tornado.
And then to sit down with an investor and tell them, look everything
here is rear projection, and look how real that looks. And we can
come back to this perfection in compositing and this is a proven technique for one
hundred years, that this is something that we can do in a successful way.
And that's really how we got the ball rolling, because I think that
was key to our company's success. We didn't come in and say we're the
new kids on the block and we've got the new stuff and these are the
toys. No, we did at the opposite. We said, we have
such amazing reverence for the traditional cinematic methods and between basically between nineteen ninety and
now is an aberration where everything's green and we need to get right. That's
kind of the way that we were pitching it to be serious, like between
nineteen ninety two and twenty twenty, everything was green for like thirty years,
and it was really uh it was blue, then green, Yeah, exactly,
it's flu and then green and that, and we're going to look back
at this moment in history and be like, what the hell were they thinking.
That's what they were doing before these types of real time backdrops came on
the scene and they started shooting actual photons again, right, not not making
fake virtual photons to bounce around everywhere. So just kind of thinking about the
from a historical perspective, from a legacy perspective, what would be the next
technology that comes around. And that's how really that we thought of it.
And I think that we've been acknowledged in this space as people who you know,
didn't try and come in and you know, and muscle our way in
with some new tech, but really have reverence and respect for traditional cinemat and
I think that's that's what we're all about. So the first time I really
you know, when AR came into my viewpoint, i'd heard about it,
but again because of early like even in twenty fifteen, twenty sixteen, seventeen,
it was still very early on, and the technology has grown so fast.
I mean it's insane how quickly the processing power is. It's just you
know, grown that now you're able to do things like we're doing currently.
But the first time I really kind of came into the zeitgeist was Mandalorian.
Mandalorian has really put it on the map, and really, would you agree,
like when when you saw Mandalorian, it was like, oh well,
yes, yeah, So, I mean definitely we were having conversations and you
know, technically we did the first one if with night Flyers about a year
prior to Mandalorian coming out. It's when we so we were doing our work.
But absolutely we we had such a big splash with this led backdrop stuff
that when people saw Mandalorian and they saw what was happening, Uh, they
got so excited. I mean, we just had an insane rush of interest
from everyone in the industry. Most people honestly thought that we had done it
because they didn't realize that a second team was capable of doing it, which
is good for us because we got a lot of calls and everything like that.
But that was massive, and it really puts this type of real time
technology on the map because you have, you know, a guy like Jon
Favreau backing this, talking about ingusting about it, everything like that, and
it makes the that makes the sailing process a little bit easier, and it
gets us further along on most on most projects than prior. So it helped
a lot. It really made people see like, you know what, I
don't need to do a camera test, you know, to see if it's
viable anymore. I don't need to see any more footage like I know it's
I know it's viable, and now it's need to make sure that I'm working
with the right team. So, because we're one of the longest serving teams
in this space doing these LED backdrops, we've benefited a lot from the Mandalorians,
big surgeon interest in the industry. Yeah, I mean when I saw
some of the behind the scenes also of what was it, Nine Flyers,
I saw some stuff that you were doing the night Flyers and some of the
you know, just just sitting there watching a camera guy move the camera and
then the background move with it. You know, your mouth drops, You're
just like what. But there's also another big benefit to that is the lighting.
You're getting real time lighting, which you don't get in the green screen,
and that is something that you just can't replicate in post, you know,
and being a post guy, it's difficult. It's not difficult, it's
nearly impossible to do it really well. Where now you have reflections, you
have lighting, like if there's a sun out, the sun is hitting you.
If there's night little you know, night lights hitting you, nightlights or
hitting you. And here's the thing, here's what's funny. You wouldn't know
exactly you wouldn't exactly know those benefits unless you'd actually have to go through the
green screen compositing process personally and go, oh, wait, this doesn't work,
Like this thing that should work doesn't isn't working. Like I need to
recreate this entire lighting scheme and lighting conditions or change it, you know,
and fake it or something like that, and really until you until you run
up to, you know, what I would call like the dead end of
what green screen is capable of. There's a certain point which you can't go
any further, you know, without really just you know, faking everything.
It's at that point that you realize, gosh, there's got to be a
better way. And you know, myself working as a visual effects compositor for
quite some time. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
and now back to the show. I think, I think thinking it's just
what I'm going to be doing when I'm sixty five, you know, Like,
am I going to be sitting here king out green and suppression? Yeah,
painting out noise, and like, is this is this what I'm going
to be doing, And just just having so much respect for those artists who
in you know, in my opinion, these these artists who do high level
feature film and TV work and do this screen screen compositing. These are Da
Vinci level artists that like we as a culture have basically said, like,
you know what, just just remove the rock from the background. Okay,
right, like basic, it's like having It's like having Leonardo Vincu. You're
like, look, I know that you can do the sisting chapel, but
just I need that rock killed out that that the wire over there. I
needed to get rid of that wire. Yeah, exactly, like can you
get You're absolutely right, absolutely, that's exactly how it feels, and and
and like and you'll be you'll be hanging around with these visual effects and positors
and you know, they'll all be like painters, you know, on their
free time and like the amazing work and stuff, and you're going, gosh,
okay, is that what we're asking these people to do? And really
just just thinking something is going to come along and it's going to be able
to do this in an automated way, and what does that what does that
look like? In realizing that actually has to happen on set while the camera
is rolling. If we can get them, if we can get a robotic
compositor, you know, to to you know, use the wrong term basically,
but we make an automated compositor that actually composits the shot before this shutter
opens and closes while you're shooting, then ultimately that's going to be the right
moment and in order to complete the composite before it goes into the camera's lens.
So that's really how you know, back up that entire process all the
way on TOO set, all the way on too set, and even actually
before the the frame is exposed. That's that's how we came up with this.
And and and uh, that's was the original conception just for like from
a really basic standpoint, thinking of it that way. So are so we
see the technologies there and and now you know you use these these giant led
uh backdrops and and how how I mean, what's like do you use projectors?
Do you actually use monitors to do a combination of do is there like
stitching of giant eighty or one hundred and fifty inch monitors? How are you
doing it? Sure? So it's a technology that was that most people will
be familiar with for concerts. So you imagine, you know, the big
Beyonce concerts. She's got those amazing LED screens behind her that are coordinated in
motion, you know, motion design, motion graphics with this with the tracks
and songs and her performance and everything. So it's it's literally those same companies
that are deploying the screens. You know, there's a lot of great LED
rental companies out there that we work with, and the difference is that the
density, the pixel density of the screens is much tighter when you're looking for
film and TVs because you want to avoid pixelation and mora and those types of
issues that go along with it. So let's say you know, at a
concert, you might have a pitch that's like five point six millimeter, which
is describes the distance between the LED diodes, but on film and TV,
you might be increasing that by eight times, so eight times more pixels in
the same like square, Inche that type of thing. So what you end
up with is basically kind of like the difference between SD and HD way back
in the day, where you'll be looking from the same distance, but you'll
just see it being much smoother. Really the illusion of curves and everything is
maintained, and so like what we've basically been looking at right now is about
one point five millimeter pitch. For these LEDs, they are built up like
legos, so you know, you build them one one row, and then
you build this next row, and then you build a next row until it's
up to the size that you need. So genuinely, the most common size
that we're working at is about twenty four by ten feet or twenty four by
twelve feet for a screen, and then the largest that we've done for a
commercial production is about forty five feet by sixteen feet, and that was fires.
That's the whole side. That's the whole side of a sound stage,
like an entire side of a sound stage is filled with a virtual world.
And then that way you have the flexibility to put the sets and put the
actors kind of anywhere in the stage and know that you're going to have that
amazing backdrop do you have you did you do a ceiling as well, because
I remember in Mandalorian they actually have that. It's like a dome almost,
So we didn't. We didn't do a ceiling with led panels. However,
there was a full production lighting grid up there where they were able to coordinate
with the action on the screen to make sure that there's you know, the
lighting, lightings coordinated and that was done by hands I think now, because
that was way back in was twenty seventeen, something like that, way back,
way back way back seventeen. Free trust me, I wish I was
back in twenty seventeen. We're in twenty twenty currently. Oh my gosh.
So I think if we were to do it now, it would be there's
be some automation, there'd be some DMX controlled lighting that would coordinate with the
with the system, and we might be doing some interesting stuff with that very
soon. And so that's that's generally the screen sizes that we're working at.
We have worked with rear projection as well, Barco and Christy some amazing projectors
that I think would be suitable, perfectly suitable for film and TV. So
it just requires, you know, to be frank like a better DP.
You have to just be a DP that knows how to use real projection.
But you can get some really amazing looks. And one of the benefits is
it's it doesn't have the mare and pixelation the way that you perceive on LED
screens, so it can be really good for some scenarios. So and that
would be and then you could actually get a much larger screen with a projector
as opposed to LEDs easier or not. Oh yeah, So for people that
want to get into these types of virtual backdrops and virtual production using LED or
reprojection. Reprojection can be a good first step. You can play around on
reprojection without too much cost. But I also recommend just playing around on a
TV because that can be you can get some really large TVs and get some
shots that look really good and just start learning about the technology. So we
actually sell we do sell a product specifically for that. It's called AIRFX Home
Studio. It's made for creators that were stuck at home, so basically for
myself, And actually we originally conceived of the product because I would have to
do the demos here at home at my home on my TV, and a
lot of filmmakers were like, you know, it's great to have a big
led setup. Can I get that the exact thing that you are showing me
right now in your TV? That would be amazing just to learn. So
we did come out with a product specifically for that. If people are interested
in the cost of that is I mean you're saying right now, the price
is around ten grand if I saw your website correctly, right, yeah,
nine five hundred is what we're asking for. AIRFX Home Studio that comes with
the workstation itself as well as all the tracking you additionally get technical support,
knowledge based video tutorials, and you know, get to our expertise to support
your projects. It also comes with a launch scene pack about one hundred backdrops.
It's really everything that somebody need to get started in this space, and
that's going to connect perfectly to your TV and your existing camera. So let's
talk about the backdrops, because that's the one thing that this all sounds fantastic,
but unless you're a guy or a gal who knows how to render out
real time, like, how is the backdrop? How is the creation of
the backdrops work? How can you create customs? Can you go out and
shoot footage and put it on there? Does that work? How is it?
How explain that process? Like the actual creation of the backdrop? Sure,
it's definitely the part of the process that still needs work. Like this
is not a perfect method the way that it's been done right now, and
basically the way that that method is is you build up the actual geometry of
the scene either in MAYA or three studio max Blend or whatever the case may
be. Then you bring it into unreal engine and at that point you need
to apply real time materials and shaders and that type of stuff. Lighting,
specific types of lighting materials and shaders to the elements, and then at that
point you're ready to shoot and you can use the backdrop. So it's it's
it's taken visual effects folks a little bit to figure out. Okay, this
is how I moved from my traditional post methodology to pushing everything into pre into
a real time engine, which is a un real engine is what we're currently
working on, which is one of the top real time graphics engines in existence.
It's they're definitely the leaders in this space. And then this was this
was also kind of pioneered in the video game space, absolutely, and that's
that's I think. I think when filmmakers start to look at this real time
space and realize they're kind of dipping their toes in the same waters as video
game people, they they can sometimes get intimidated because it's a different world,
it's a different culture and everything like that. We'll be right back after a
word from our sponsor and now back to the show. But I think once
they realize this key point, it starts to become a lot easier for them.
In the video game world, this is built off of a world of
you know, indie makers and people who were coming out of the culture of
technology and independent technology. So these people believe in sharing quite a bit.
So whenever, for example, whenever a video game company finishes a major project
and you know, it has success or a dozen or whatever, and they're
basically done with those assets, they tend to then take every single one of
the assets that they made and liquidate it onto a marketplace for you, so
you can go and buy every single thing from the video game, or you
can buy the select you know, most in demand things from that video game.
So, as a filmmaker, when you come to Unreal Engine and you
go to the Unreal Assets Store, and you go to Turbo Squid and all
these other places where you can begin to get these acids, what you realize
is, I'm you know, you're sitting on a legacy of twenty plus years
of acid creation, where video game creators have just been making making, making
put in on the marketplace, make make make put on the marketplace and that's
been happening thousands of artists for decades. So you'll you'll be able to go
and get you know, your you know, your Lamborghini, your you know
your forests, that type of your t Rex. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
So so a lot of the time what we're doing with a client when
we're when we're when we're you know, doing a location scout, which is
like a virtual location scout. We'll actually go through the unreal acid store and
do like what do you want and they'll be like, Okay, I want
an alley. Okay, Ali, we type it in, we get you
know, fifteen different alleys, and then we're doing basically going through the screenshots
going does this feel right? Does that feel right? And that's actually how
we're we're doing it in the moment, and then when we actually is that
crazy? And then when we actually need to like lock this specific shot like
on a you know, this is shot as a shot b that type of
thing, what we'll end up doing is literally on a zoom chat like this,
I'll be going flying through the location and they'll say, you know what,
that looks pretty good, Like I like that tree right there, that
type of thing. Okay, So then I'll bookmarkt into our system and then
when they show up on set, that's exactly what they saw on that zoom
called. That's genuitally how we're doing uh, these locations scots. Now in
the middle there. Of course, we have amazing technical artists who are you
know, making everything look for the real as much as possible, getting the
animation done, getting the scripted events done, effects and that type of stuff.
So are you are you bringing in the location when you're bringing in these
files? Are you just bringing elements in and you're putting it all together,
or are you building like are you getting a full blown alley with the garbage
cans with the lighting schemes? Like what are you what are you getting exactly?
You're getting everything? Like either we're either we're building off of one specific
existing stock asset which is royalty free. By the way, these are all
royalty free. You can use them. You know, you could go and
you could make a Disney film with them, and technically the artists couldn't say
anything. It's kind of a weird reality that we live in. So they
come with everything genuinely inside them, or you can populate them with all sorts
of whatever props you want. So there's full flexibility here to create the world
that you want to be created. Yeah, I mean I was. I
was doing a show for Legendary, a TV show, and I we were
doing so many insane visual effects, Like we did one hundred and fifty visual
effects a week for a full blown show. It was insane and the only
way we could do it was we went to Turbo Squid and I'm like,
okay, we need a dune worm. Okay, great, let's get in
and we just and we'd go and find them and they were all pre built,
and then my vfxs of artists can go because if they would have to
create those elements, we never make it. And they're cheap, they're not
they're not super I mean, I'm sure an alley or something a little bit
more detailed, defensive, but relatively speaking, a lot cheaper than having to
create it yourself. Yeah. I mean, if you're guys sending like a
table and chair or something, you're probably spending like what less than thirty bucks
maybe something like that for like a really really nice one. Yeah. So
it's a it's a really interesting world once you get into into fully digital environments.
And I think it's the same kind of thing that happens when people jumped
from physical sets to green screen. What's happening now is that process of uh,
you're ending up with more finalized assets now, whereas before you know you'd
have to you know, you'd have to fit it into the world of your
film. Now you can go you can find pretty much anything of any style,
you know, change it up a little bit, change the color or
something like that, and you have an asset ready to go for your project.
So it's it's really it's a really odd time in media right now because
labor and creativity and artistry have been massive are getting massive undervalued because you know,
all this stuff is out there for free. But at the same time,
as a creator, as a filmmaker, it's almost like never been a
better time because you've got all this royalty free assets, you've got the actual
capability to utilize those assets in your project with this with our technology and similar
technology. So you're like, it's it's it's a really interesting time. And
what we're seeing from from filmmakers is actually we're getting this sentence a lot.
Wow. I've always had this concept that I would never have been able to
do, and now I'm going to do it. And so we're working on
a couple of projects right now where these are projects where the artists, the
director, you know, they wanted to do this five years ago, but
it was not it's not a budgetary reality. And now we're able to lower
that budgetary threshold for them so that that vision that they have is actually achievable.
And as a filmmaker, you know, when I'm moving the needle on
like it's it's great. You know, it's great to make some money and
you know that's awesome, right, But when I'm moving the needle on,
what can what is actually getting greenland? That's that's amazing. And two,
the created vision that is actually getting executed upon that project dreamline. I mean
to be able to affect that in a meaningful way. It's very satisfying and
to me, that's what that's what I'm working for. So that was the
other thing I want to talk about. The budgetary benefits of this is massive
because a show like Mandalorian could not be made without this technology. It's just
be too expensive. It It'd be like making a half of a Star Wars
film every episode which you got it, it's like it's impossible. Wouldn't wouldn't
have happened, Like Mandalorian playing plane plainly wouldn't have happened. And a lot
of people might not realize that there was an actual live action Star Wars film.
Star Wars a series that was attempted not not to like maybe, oh
they had like seventy they had seventy episodes written. I remember like Luke Lucas
had like seventy episodes written of that was he was going to do it,
but he just was going to could figure it out. They couldn't figure out
because at that point they were using green screen and so that just the compositing
and tracking and getting everything working with the beautiful animation that they you know,
were interested in getting it just wouldn't have happened, or you know, frankly,
it didn't happen. And I think that they've been pushing the live action
Star Wars series concept until they saw this technology was successible. And I like
to say that we were part of actually pushing them over that edge. You
know, we did a showcase at Disney for about two days where we showed
everyone the pability of this technology and really push it over the edge. And
and you know, we've been definitely causing some trouble, like when we come
out here, and just to be clear, not everyone as a fan of
what we're doing. You can imagine whose lunch we're eating when we're coming out
and saying, you never have to hire a compositor again. You never have
to hire a rotor guy again, know that type of thing. So so
yeah, I mean we got all sorts of pushback from the visual effects folks
that you know, many different studios, But I think when you actually see,
wait a second, we're not actually taking money out of someone's pocket.
What we're doing is we're green lighting a project that would have never happen,
right, getting the getting the cost of those shots that are appropriate for our
technology way way down. And you know, for those shots where visual effects
is still a perfect fit, post visual effects is still a perfect fit.
You know, they can continue to have those those those shots, and there's
many shots in which our technology will never be suitable, you know, flying
an X Wing down the trench and having those beautiful exterior shots of the X
Wing and that type of stuff. You know, there's no way that we're
going to be relevant to that because there's no you know, the live action
component of that is so minor, so like there's always going to be a
place for visual effects, And the fact is they should be working on those
amazing trench run sequences. They should not be working as separating you know,
actresses blonde hair from green, and that they should be more for the like
if you try to do this with Avengers Endgame, the Final the Final Battle.
You know, I was trying to think about when I saw this technology
and like, Okay, how could have this been played out? Because I
saw the behind the scenes of the Avengers Endgame and it's just massive green.
It's just massive, massive, massive amounts of green. But I'm like,
how could have this worked in that environment? And maybe you would have They
could have probably dropped millions of dollars off of it if they would have structured
certain shots within uh some sort of ar dome of some sort. But but
but this is those giant, massive shots when you've got fifty people running.
Maybe you could maybe you couldn't. There's still gonna be some cg comping in
there, but there might be a lot of a lot of time and money
saved. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor and now back
to the show. Yeah, absolutely, So, we actually did a case
study on Night Fliers. We went and got comparison pricing for what if these
shots had been achieved through traditional green screen visual effects, and what we found
was pretty startling. We were looking at anywhere from a sixty two to seventy
three percent reduction of budget for those shots, so meaning wow, so we
were cutting somewhere around four hundred grand off of an episode budget just by being
there and accomplishing these effects on set, versus them having to capture a green
then send it out to a house to work on for two months, come
back just to give them the flaring and the beautiful play of light that they're
getting read out of the box with our technology. This is physical photons coming
out of the screen, hitting the actor's face, hitting the set, you
know, the and eventually bouncing into the lens as opposed to having to replicate
that artificially. I mean, it's just for those filmmakers, those dps and
directors that are looking for that look, it's just a much better choice for
them. So that's what we've been seeing be successful. But it's also to
be clear, this is a budgetary concern as well. Producers are liking this
technology because it's saving them company moves, it's saving them post reduction time.
They're you know, potentially simplifying their post production down. So if you're post
supervisor you know, maybe you're working two months instead of four months. It's
that's the reality that we're bringing to the table with its technology. You know,
it's great to it's great to talk about, you know, bringing dreams,
you know, to fruition and that type of stuff. But if the
dollars and cents that don't make sense, then it's never going to happen.
So at every moment of our of our company, we've always been, you
know, mindful of the fact that we're independent filmmakers and we're budget conscious.
I know, filmmakers like yourself who are working filmmakers, your budget conscious as
well. And it goes all the way up and down the ladder. Nobody
is looking to spend more than they have to. So if we can create
that narrative that you know, this is an opportunity for you instead of having
to go chase that tax incentive, which is basically what producers are doing,
like you're just okay, we're gonna you know, save mindy, go chase
that tax incentive, go to bulk area, you know, or wherever we
have to go. Instead of doing that, you know, cut seventy percent
of your effects budget using this technology, and it's going to be suitable for
you know, ninety percent plus of the shots that you need. And that's
basically the narrative that that we've been pitching with that case study that's actually available
on our website. People are interested in going and taking a look, just
look for night Fiers case study on the homepage and then hopefully you'll see there
like just how disruptive this technology is going to be. And here's the thing.
Is so disruptive that I think without the pandemic occurring, we still would
be having we still would be struggling to get adoption now that the pandemic occurred.
I you know, I've I've done demos for over four hundred filmmakers and
executives in the past, you know, six months. It's virtual demos like
me and me in my living room in front of my TV. And just
beginning to see those those that interests trickle in for quarter one of twenty twenty
one. Yeah, it's it's going to be an exciting time for virtual production
in general. Now, now do you believe because of you know, this
is a larger conversation, but I think you guys are definitely an ingredient in
it because because the theatrical experience and the theatrical component of the distribution pipeline is
pretty much gone right now as we're currently recording this. I'm sure it will
come back in one way, shape or form in the future. But I
just read an article yesterday that Disney is completely doing a reorganization and they're completely
focusing on streaming. So that means that Marvel Movies and all these big tentpole
movies are going to start going straight to streaming because they're just like, this
is the future. Theatrical is not where it's at. I'm sure it still
have a component of it, of course, but it's not what it was,
and it's I don't think it's going to go back to pre COVID levels
anytime in the near future. Studios are going to the studios are not going
to be able to spend three hundred to five hundred million dollars on ten poles
anymore because the return on the investment isn't as much there because the theatrical international
theatrical components aren't nearly as big as you know. Before you an Avengers will
make two billion you know where, I don't know could it make that streaming,
don't I don't. I don't know, you know what, I pay
thirty bucks opening day to see the Endgame probably, and I believe there's probably
at least forty or fifty million people in the world that probably would And that's
a pretty good that's one point five billion dollars. Yeah, I think it's
it's it's it's such a weird time because actually, what's happening is now the
the the established streamers Amazon, Netflix, these guys are actually having conversations with
the theater owners to see, like, could we fill this gap that the
major studios are no longer filling because they're just not generating and releasing the content.
They just, you know, basically, the metrics don't make sense.
Right. They made these projects for a pre COVID world, and they have
to release it in a post COVID world, right, and it's just that
those those metrics are just never going to line up. So what and what's
happening with the streamers is they were kind of thinking more of the of those
metrics making sense for them. The business model that they have just fits a
little bit better, and they have the flexibility to go out and do quote
unquote a minor theatrical release just to drum up some some publicity for the project.
So I think the way that it's trickling down to effects vendors and technology
vendors working in entertainment like us is, you know, one the number of
people that are looking for a budget conscious solution has fid like we're getting hair
amount, you know, looking for a budget consciot solution. Disney looking for
a budget conscious solution. And that's just not where you were before. In
fact, it was the opposite. If you went above a certain level in
quote unquote you know, industry notoriety, industry status, you basically don't play
with anyone below a certain level, right just because you're trying to keep that
you know, that quality high, you're trying to keep the entire you know,
social stratum high. So like so it's it's it's definitely changed. And
the other thing that's changed is you have a lot of people who are smart,
who have been poised and waiting for a moment like this and who are
now attacking. And they're now you know, they see the established players all
you know, tripping and falling and stumbling, and they're going, wait a
second, this is my opportunity to have a conversation with that studio executive,
to have a conversation with that filmmaker, to have a conversation with that talent
agent that I wouldn't have been able to have prior. And a lot of
the people who are being successful now are people who have experienced in effects,
in virtual production and then also in working at smaller budgets, so they're willing
to have a conversation with us, you know, on behalf of these major
studios in a way that we wouldn't necessarily have had before. And that's been
super interesting because you know, these are major filmmakers who want to have these
conversations, who are looking to become the virtual production at this studio, and
that's an exciting thing to be hearing from filmmakers. So with your with your
ARFX home studio product, can't independent filmmakers use this technology in their projects.
If you have a two hundred three hundred thousand dollars movie budget and you know
it's not a sci fi extravagance, it doesn't have to be. But if
you have an action film or if you you know, just want to create
a little bit more scope in the back in the backdrop of shots to give
more production value to your to your as opposed to flying to Montana for the
end for that sunset. You can have the Montana endless sunset for twelve hours
like they did. You've got it. Yeah, so can they? You
can they do it? And what does it take to get that to work
for them? Yeah? So the way that we're pitching air Effects on studio
is that this is the method to learn about this new virtual production technique.
However, you know, creators being for creators and filmmakers being filmmakers. Immediately
people are saying, you know what, I could hook this up to a
rear projection system. I could hook this up to an LED system and actually
be able to shoot some stuff and get some shots out of the box,
like completely compositive and ready to go looking great, just with this air effects
home studio box, you know, some lighting and my camera and everything like
that. I think that's obviously what we want people to think, because at
the end of the day, there is nothing special about, you know,
going out to a TV that's for K resolution and going out to a rear
projection system that's for K resolution. From the perspective of the actual system,
there is no difference. It's just pushing out resolution, right, just pushing
out pixels and doing that, you know, at a high frame rate that's
going to be suitable for the camera, the production. We'll be right back
after a word from our sponsor and now back to the show. So from
the perspective of the system, there is no difference. What we're saying basically
is for AIRFX home studio, it's the it comes with backdrops which are preset
for you, preset backdrops, stock environments, so that if you want that
forest, that temple, that apartment, that office, whatever, that's going
to go ahead and come in those scene pacts for you. But if you
want custom content or you want to have deeper technical tech rehearsal tools than our
AIRFX Professional system, this first system that we came out with, which is
what we license out to major studios and that type of stuff, that's still
going to be the better choice for those professionals. What the cost of those
If you're interested in knowing about the cost of AIRFX Professional, you can reach
out to us. It's actually we have different pricing depending on different types of
you know, it's a sliding scale depending on the project. Everything like that.
The other reason I mentioned that is because we do actually have bundle packages
with stages located here in LA. So we have partnered with stages here in
LA to have the LED screens or have suitable setups and you can actually get
entire bundle packages by coming to us and using those stages. So that's what
we've been working on during the pandemics. We've taking the opportunity to go,
like, you know what, these stages are having issues getting people in.
One way that we can attract those people is having a more COVID safe,
you know, social distancing state solution. So that's what that's what we've done,
and we're very hopeful that that people are going to find those valuable and
attractive now. And finally, are we just getting closer and closer to the
Star Trek's holidack. I mean essentially this is this is essentially where we're going.
It's funny. It's funny you say that because one of the first things
that happened when we got big of you heads coming in as a studio ahead
and would say, you know, it's great that you can track the camera.
That's awesome. When is it going to attract me when is it going
to attract my head, you know, me as an individual, and I
can actually get these illusions for you know, walking around a room. So
we actually developed that, we built that, and we released it at CEES
just earlier this year at the beginning of the year, prior to the pandemic,
and we won Best ar Experience for that product. It's called Airwall Interactive,
very creative names as you can see, and basically what it is is
it uses depth cameras to establish the track of your head position, so it's
tracking this point right in the bridge of your nose between your eyes, and
then it's delivering the same wind to illusion that we're delivering to our camera,
delivering it to you as an individual. So you walk into a room with
you know, three walls of this experience, which is some of the conversations
that we're having right now, and you'll, you know, you'll be in
another world. And as you move this way, that way is the perspective
is going to shift perfectly to your vantage point. And we're actually getting that
down to the point where it's no longer perceivable. The delay is no longer
perceivable by the human eye. So we're talking about something that feels stuck to
your head, and you move around and it feels stuck to your head every
little sentimeter that you move. The other interesting thing about that is since we
can track your head, we can actually track your entire body, your hands,
your eyes, everything, So we can create situations where based on your
body position, your pose, or the actions that you take, the system
can respond to you. So what am I talking about? Characters that look
directly into your eyes? Because remember we know the position of your head,
We look directly into your eyes, we talk to you, we respond to
your voice, and then we actually respond to your gesture. So if you
point and you know, say it's over there and point over there, the
CG character can look at where you're pointing and react realistically using either a TATBOS
system or AI or something like that. So that's the type of really crazy
stuff that we're working in. And I'll be frank, I would love to
say that, you know, we're definitely one of the companies that down the
line, the patents that we filed, the work that we've been doing with
brands and with venues, hopefully Wilson Day lead to a holiday type device.
Not necessarily saying that we're going to be the company to doing because I still
do think it's a little bit down the line. Maybe by the end of
my life we may have something like as you have fifty years something maybe something
like that, But I do definitely think that between now and then, we're
going to have these very interesting experiences, Like from the perspective of somebody who
you know, wasn't born with these type of technology being around, it is
going to seem and feel like a holiday type of experience. And just to
be clear, those are conversations we're having right now about let's deploy that first
quarter of twenty twenty one, let's make that happen. And I think the
pandemic also helps push that conversation along because people can't get out and they can't
have these experiences, and particularly when you think about training and education, these
are situations where you know you can't stop training people just because it's cumbersome and
difficult, right, People still need to be trained up. So that's that's
what we're seeing kind of the first interest coming from that from that space.
So I know it's it's it's something that may seem distant in science fiction,
but that those conversations are happening now, creating those immersive rooms that those conversations
are happening. The funny thing is that as you're saying this, I'm like,
in fifty years this will look like SD this will look like a silent
movie technology comparatively to what the Holid deck is. But it's not that far,
Like you know, we're not that far. It's a stone throw it's
a big stone throw away, but it is still something that's not completely astronomical
to in my life time to see a holid deck where where you're interacting with
photoreal computer generated images that look literally as as crystal clear as a human being
standing right next to you. Can you only imagine the kind of filmmaking that
will be. Can you imagine where like kids will be in there in their
garages with Holi decks shooting the next Avengers endgame will look like an indie film
exactly, And like you can imagine a world where you put up the holid
deck like wallpaper, right, you put up the stream like wallpaper, just
like gaining it on, rolling it on, and that type of thing,
and then it all self coordinates. You know, goes, okay, this
is you know what position I am in the world and everything like that.
Like it's not that it's not that difficult to imagine it. Like, I
think the technology exists right now. What doesn't exist right now is the will
and the actual use case that would demand that investment together. Right, That's
that's what we're working and we're trying to find those partners. And it's folks
in location based entertainment, it's folks in training and education. It's also folks
in the defence industry. We're having some conversations imagine. So so there's all
sorts of use cases for that, but you know, until we find that
perfect one, it's it's it's not going to happen. So that that's what
that's what our job is as a company and as a business right to talk
to have conversations with these decision makers and go what is actually going to get
the money to flow and what what are the requirements that we can hit that
we can hit now they're going to get that money to flow and actually make
investment happen. So that's that's really my work as a CEO is helping folks
see that. I've been successful in doing that in filmmaking now with this technology
with airwell interactive going out and filmmaking out of media out into the rest of
the world. I'm having very interesting conversations where they're you know, they're aware
of Mandalorian, They're aware of the work that's been happening, because this is
something that broke out even just of the entertainment community. So we're having conversations
where that amazing work that has been done in film and TV is actually moving
the ball in other industries because they're like, you know what Jon Favreau did
it, maybe that'll work for our thing too. It's a really weird time,
and I think the pandemic has supercharged all of this. I mean,
this is all something that would have happened eventually, Like we would have all
eventually gone to more streaming than theatrical the writing was on the wall, all
this technology, it would still be moving forward. I think it just sped
it up probably a few years in time frame where it would have been.
So it is, it is what it is in regards to what we're dealing
with with the pandemic. But there is some benefits because people are like zoom
like now everybody. I don't know, if you've been driving around La traffic's
fantastic, like this is this is like it's but this is a wonderful place
to live now, like all of a sudden, like I drove to Santa
Monica last weekend. It took me thirty five minutes. Oh yeah, I
live in the valley. That's an hour and a half normally. Exactly.
Yeah, yeah, because everyone's working at home exactly. We're almost back to
the clueless days where you know, I think the famous line and slu list
is everywhere in la is twenty minutes and it's away. Yes, and we're
almost there. We're getting under forty Yeah, they're forty minutes. We're going
to get their sun ta. Yeah. I agree with you, so Ree,
I appreciate you being on the show man. I want to ask you
a few questions, ask all my guests, what advice would you give a
filmmaker trying to break into the business today, besides obviously buying an ar wall
FX studio home studio, Ian HAIRFX home studio. No, I think,
I mean, I think my real answer probably tracks with that pretty well,
which is, you know, I think anybody can see that the media entertainment
industry is undergoing a transition, right now we'll be right back after a word
from our sponsor, and now back to the show. And you don't want
to be on the wrong side of that transition. You don't want to be
of the mentality of you know, I'm going to need making half a billion
dollar movies and we're going to be putting out in theaters and everybody. You
know, we're going to put money in our ears and you know stream and
you know that's that, And that's what filmmaking is going to be. I
think it's shifted, and I think that a successful filmmaker now is somebody who
understands their audience, who understands who's coming to their films, listens to those
people, and doesn't listen to anybody else, Because that's that's the reality right
now. In order to be a successful creator, you've got to be selective
about who you're listening to. I think that's the big one right now.
You know, a project that is that is successful, is going to work
on Hulu, isn't necessarily going to be successful in work on Disney Plus.
And that's just a reality that we live in right now, that these are
sidled audiences happening. So I think the idea of mainstream filmmaking as a whole
has fundamentally collapsed and changed. I don't think that when when you think of
a mainstream film, we're probably thinking of that, you know, Avengers Endgame
of that type of thing, and I think moving forward, it's going to
be a different type of film that we're probably thinking about. And to be
frank, it's probably not even going to be a film. It's probably going
to be a TV show, a TV series, a limited series or something
like that. Raised by Wolves, I think is a really good example.
I don't know if you've been watching that, and I haven't seen any about
it. It's on my list, you know what, Really Scott, that's
a really good example because it's almost it's it's a post really Scott film,
you know, it's it's pitched as a really Scott universe, but in reality,
you know, it's a TV show, and really Scott's projects are films
traditionally, So it's in my opinion, it's somebody who looked at the mob
that really Scott had has mastered and has really you know, gone out of
his way to nail and then taking that and transplanting that into this, you
know, post transition world that we live in, and that's I think a
good project for people to think about moving forward. How it takes traditional familiar
symbology, story structure and just does it in a different way. And I
think that's what successful filmmaking is going to be like in the future. And
so technology is a big component of that. You know, virtual production.
I don't think it's going to go away anytime soon. So in this in
the same way that you know, you and I were, you know,
I think saw success in moving into digital video as a as a as a
creative a tool for us, as a crucial creative tool for us, and
long linear editing as well. I think that same virtual production is going to
be that same tool of empowerment for filmmakers were coming up right now. Like
if you're if you graduate, if you just graduated for film school, and
you want to get a job in Hollywood, go and make a project on
a real engine, make a little one minute thing on an real engine,
then email me, I will freaking hire you. Because there's so few people
that have both filmmaking experience and in real engine experience. It's just not something
that people are looking at right now. And I think that those for those
who do it's going to be very successful. And what is the lesson that
took you the longest to learn, whether in the film business or in life?
This is this is something, This is something definitely something that took me
a long time to learn. I was born and raised in Silicon Valley and
we uh, you know, we're a bunch of tech heads in Silicon Valley
where you know, we all think that we're smarter than everyone else. Basically
is what is you know, the nice way to say it? And and
I think coming out of that culture, coming to LA and really dealing with
people in a wide spanded industries, you see just how empowering technology is to
people, but also how intimidating it can be to people. So I think
the what I what I The thing that took me the longest to learn is
you have to be patient and you have to be forgiving for people's familiarity and
knowledge with technology. And you if you can't be that person that takes a
difficult technological process and task and makes that easy for someone to understand or use
or analyze or whatever, that's a friend and a partner and the collaboratory that
you're going to have for a long time. But if you're the type of
person that goes they don't get the tech, screw them. You know,
they're dumb, they're stupid, they're they're you know, old fam they don't
get it. Then all of a sudden you become part of the problem because
that person sees you as an obstacle or something. So that that's the thing
that took me the longest to learn. Being good at technology and being a
master at your tools is a way for you to bring people up. It's
a way for you to bring people up. It's not a division between you
and the other person. It's not we're over here, we know tech and
we know everything and you guys don't. Because at the end of the day,
no, the reason that that person hasn't learned the tech is because they've
been busting their ass mastering some other part of the creative process, some other
part of the business process, and their masters at that. And you're master
at this and they're master at that, and together you can make some magic
and you can make something happen that never would have been possible before. That's
how I created this company, ar Well. This is a multidisciplinary multifaceted company.
Not everyone in the company is a full tech head. Some people are
more creative, some people they're artists, some people are their business people.
And being able to get all these people in the room talking to each other
respectfully and coming up with solutions that are going to be helpful to the entire
industry is so amazing. It's such an amazing experience to have. I wish
I would have done it at every prior company that I found it. I
founded three companies prior to this, and I definitely didn't think that way.
You know, I wanted it to be, you know, birds of a
feather all together, and it just doesn't work that way. You need people
who think differently for me, and I think that's the thing that took me
the longest to learn. And finally, what are three of your favorite films
of all time? Okay, three favorite films, So Vertigo and Shining.
The Shining are usually at the top. Vertigo for me is just it's the
quintessential film. Just the analysis of subjectivity and so just the delusion of trying
to recreate a moment from the past. I think that's exactly what's it's all
about. And then the Shining. It's just a terrifying film. It's it's
one of those it's one of those films that really got me because I I
for saw it. I was about the same age as Danny, So it's
just like just watching that movie. Like I said, my dad is really
into cinema and she was watching stuff I probably shouldn't have been watching at a
young age. But it's shining for sure. And then I guess for the
third one, I got to put Dune in there just because it did.
It did was the catalyst for for me going into film and just just surged
my imagination as a kid, just thinking about that universe and what was possible
in filmmaking. So I'm like obviously really looking forward to the Dune coming out,
which now apparently they're pushing it back. I did have a mini heart
attack when that got delayed a full year. But yeah, I'm really looking
forward. I'm really really looking forward to that project and that And that's a
perfect example. You said something so interesting earlier. Used to like this was
a movie made pre COVID, trying to release in post COVID, and the
numbers don't make sense. That's why James Bond is having such a difficult time.
That's why The Wonder Woman and Black Widow and all these movies that were
made prior. They just don't this this business model doesn't make sense, and
the studios have no idea what to do. So I get it. I
get that, an hold it, like, look, we'll just put it
on the shelf for a year and see what happens. I get it.
It sucks. I look, I want to see all these movies. It
sucks. I want it now. I wonder. No, don't you know
somebody you could get a little a quick screen or somewhere, don't you know
people? Yeah, I mean they probably got that underguard. You know,
no way anyone's going to get their hands on that if they did, could
you imagine, I mean just just like just like crumbling. Yeah. I
remember when Wolverine. The Wolverine got released early, like a week early.
Oh god, that's brutal. That was brutal. And where can people find
you and the good work you're doing over at aarwall. Yeah, So if
you're interested in reaching out to us, you can email us at hello at
arwall dot co, or you can go to our website that's arwall dot co
and on our website, you can find more information about the products that we
sell, as well as airfxom Studio, our newest product which was released during
the pandemic for Creators at Home. Renee Man, thank you so much.
This has been an epic conversation. I just wanted to keep asking you questions
and questions because I'm fascinated by this new technology and I do think it is
going to be the future is a very big component of the future of filmmaking,
especially post COVID, so I truly appreciate you coming on the show and
continue doing the good work you're doing. Over to Ao Walman, thank you
so much. Thank you so much for having me Alex, I really appreciate
it. I want to thank Renee for coming on the show and dropping those
virtual production knowledge bombs on the tribe today. Thank you again so much.
Guys. If you want to get access to anything we spoke about in this
episode, including links to Arwall Arwalls Home Studio and my recent article on virtual
production, just head over to the show notes at Bulletproof Screenwriting dot TV Forward
Slash three sixty two. Thank you so much for listening, guys. As
always, keep on writing, no matter what I'll talk to you soon.
Thanks for listening to the Bulletproof Screenwriting podcast at Bulletproofscreenwriting dot tv.