WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.120 --> 00:00:03.480 Welcome to this Anthra life, where we unravel the complexities of the human experience 2 00:00:03.640 --> 00:00:07.120 and explore the intricate webs that connect our lives or work in societies. I'm 3 00:00:07.120 --> 00:00:10.839 your host, Adam Gamwell. Today we're diving into a world where creativity meets 4 00:00:10.839 --> 00:00:15.519 technology, where the boundaries of work are redefined, and where talent transcends geography. 5 00:00:15.720 --> 00:00:18.960 So join me as we journey through the story of Superside. It is 6 00:00:19.079 --> 00:00:24.000 an organization around innovation in the digital landscape, and we're talking with its founders, 7 00:00:24.160 --> 00:00:28.239 Frederick Thomlinson. Now, today our workplaces aren't confined by four walls, 8 00:00:28.399 --> 00:00:33.039 but instead are surrounded by the vast expanse of the Internet. We might say, 9 00:00:33.359 --> 00:00:35.520 I mean, even if you work in an office or a lab or 10 00:00:35.520 --> 00:00:38.759 a classroom, chances aren't you have colleagues in other parts of the world who 11 00:00:38.799 --> 00:00:42.399 connect or work with you remotely. The thing is well, online digital work 12 00:00:42.439 --> 00:00:47.479 is becoming more of a norm. Equitable access and comparable pay across geographies and 13 00:00:47.560 --> 00:00:51.399 countries and places are not givens. And the technology might be there, but 14 00:00:51.520 --> 00:00:55.759 without also accounting for human well being, culture, or our willingness and ability 15 00:00:55.799 --> 00:00:59.640 to adapt. The move to global digital work looks more like a techno utopian 16 00:00:59.679 --> 00:01:03.759 dream for a few privileged countries or tech borrows. And this is the problem 17 00:01:03.799 --> 00:01:07.200 that Frederick sets out to help solve. It's a world where your work opportunities 18 00:01:07.200 --> 00:01:10.319 are not limited by where you live, but by your talent and your drive. 19 00:01:10.920 --> 00:01:14.680 The superside, Frederick is not just building a design agency that brings in 20 00:01:14.760 --> 00:01:19.040 top talent and makes it available to other organizations and companies. He's crafting a 21 00:01:19.079 --> 00:01:23.840 future where work can be truly global and inclusive, shattering the barriers of traditional 22 00:01:23.840 --> 00:01:27.040 employment and opening up a universe of potential for creative minds around the globe. 23 00:01:27.319 --> 00:01:30.400 But how does such a vision come to life? You know what challenges lie 24 00:01:30.439 --> 00:01:34.280 on the path of revolutionizing work, and more importantly, I'm going to ensure 25 00:01:34.319 --> 00:01:38.640 that this digital transformation brings about a more equitable and accessible world for all. 26 00:01:40.120 --> 00:01:42.400 So today's episode will take us into the heart of the future of work itself. 27 00:01:42.519 --> 00:01:47.400 So stay tuned as we dissect the digital evolution with Frederick Thomason, exploring 28 00:01:47.400 --> 00:01:51.239 the interplay of technology, culture, and creativity and shaping a world where anyone, 29 00:01:51.400 --> 00:01:55.159 anywhere can contribute to the global canvas of innovation. So, when starting 30 00:01:55.159 --> 00:01:59.000 the company. I was actually living in Indonesia and part of building an e 31 00:01:59.000 --> 00:02:02.920 commerce company there and worked with a lot of incredibly talented people and thought to 32 00:02:02.959 --> 00:02:07.840 myself, you know, these guys, if they could have been magically teleported 33 00:02:07.879 --> 00:02:12.439 to the US, they would make ten to fifteen times as much. And 34 00:02:12.479 --> 00:02:16.159 then obviously, you guys over there in America are building walls and you know, 35 00:02:16.280 --> 00:02:21.080 keeping people out of the country, right, And so it felt like 36 00:02:21.120 --> 00:02:25.680 the only solution would be the Internet. And I've felt very strongly that one 37 00:02:25.759 --> 00:02:30.759 of the greatest transitions of the twenty first century would be work moving online, 38 00:02:30.800 --> 00:02:35.439 and I just wanted to be a part of that one way or another. 39 00:02:35.520 --> 00:02:39.879 And I think it's been a really interesting journey. It's still very early, 40 00:02:39.919 --> 00:02:46.599 but every year now there's millions of people joining the online workforce from all over 41 00:02:46.639 --> 00:02:50.479 the world, and you know, creating an equal and internet is helping create 42 00:02:50.520 --> 00:02:54.479 a more equal playing field. And our mission is to create more equal opportunities 43 00:02:55.240 --> 00:03:00.639 in the world by helping to accelerate this transition to online online work. And 44 00:03:00.680 --> 00:03:07.080 so I had personally always been working in marketing and and sort of work as 45 00:03:07.199 --> 00:03:10.280 journalists. For a while, worked in consulting, and they did primarily marketing 46 00:03:10.439 --> 00:03:15.639 activities there and worked in e commerce, did marketing for within an e commerce 47 00:03:15.639 --> 00:03:22.479 and it always we were always bottlenecked by the sign and creative and we're always 48 00:03:22.479 --> 00:03:25.840 waiting for the designers to finish up. We were always feeling that we could 49 00:03:27.199 --> 00:03:34.000 have better performance of our marketing programs if the creative was better, faster, 50 00:03:35.199 --> 00:03:38.400 you know, more volume. There's always like new channels, new segments that 51 00:03:38.479 --> 00:03:42.639 you want to target, but always just waiting for for the creative. And 52 00:03:42.680 --> 00:03:46.960 it's not the designers fault. I mean the in my experience, they've always 53 00:03:46.000 --> 00:03:50.840 seemed you know, overworked and tired and you know, always on their deadline 54 00:03:50.879 --> 00:03:53.840 and stress, and all I want to do is is make cool stuff and 55 00:03:54.039 --> 00:03:59.039 not be bothered, right, and and so that just felt like an unnecessary 56 00:03:59.719 --> 00:04:02.680 situation. It's felt like it would be possible to solve that, and so 57 00:04:03.080 --> 00:04:11.400 we start to build Superside, which aims to help marketing and creative teams you 58 00:04:11.439 --> 00:04:16.560 know, get more, get more, and bottleneck design deliver greater performance on 59 00:04:16.680 --> 00:04:21.560 creative campaigns. And so yeah, that's that's basically the genesis. That's really 60 00:04:21.560 --> 00:04:25.319 interesting and I think that you've said a lot of things that really kind of 61 00:04:25.639 --> 00:04:29.439 strike my my brain as an anthropologist and a former design educator and design teacher, 62 00:04:30.160 --> 00:04:33.680 that you know, oftentimes the there is the the kind of creative artistic 63 00:04:33.680 --> 00:04:38.519 bottleneck in terms of how fast can we produce intension with the idea that like 64 00:04:38.800 --> 00:04:42.319 I want to take the time to you know, make the perfect design, 65 00:04:42.519 --> 00:04:45.879 the perfect kind of campaign outlay, the perfect kind of graphic or motion design. 66 00:04:46.120 --> 00:04:48.839 And you know, there is this interesting tension back and forth that I 67 00:04:48.839 --> 00:04:53.120 hear you articulating, that is between the idea of speed and quality, right, 68 00:04:53.160 --> 00:04:56.920 but then there is this you know, not not magical at this point, 69 00:04:56.920 --> 00:04:58.959 but it still kind of feels magical, right that the power of working 70 00:04:58.959 --> 00:05:01.959 online in the remote work right, that we can in fact connect across time 71 00:05:02.040 --> 00:05:05.639 zones, across places in the globe. And you know, so the anthropologist 72 00:05:05.639 --> 00:05:08.920 side of me is is, you know, the heart is warmed in terms 73 00:05:08.920 --> 00:05:11.959 of it, how do we democratize access to work and well paid work right? 74 00:05:12.199 --> 00:05:16.920 And we make this area and availability you know, you know, often 75 00:05:17.360 --> 00:05:20.160 open to more kinds of people. And so I'd love to kind of think 76 00:05:20.199 --> 00:05:24.639 about this. You know, obviously we're in a we're in late twenty twenty 77 00:05:24.639 --> 00:05:26.879 two or recording this. So we're I don't know if we can say we're 78 00:05:26.920 --> 00:05:29.279 a post pandemic, but we're we're, you know, towards the latter stage 79 00:05:29.279 --> 00:05:31.519 of understanding living with something that has made so many people locked down, right 80 00:05:31.519 --> 00:05:35.839 and moving work online. Right. I'm curious how that idea has also kind 81 00:05:35.879 --> 00:05:40.079 of shifted some of the thinking. Did it did it kind of help launch 82 00:05:40.120 --> 00:05:42.959 Superside even further? Or is this something that, like you, you felt 83 00:05:43.040 --> 00:05:46.600 ultimately prepared for right because you're already in a remote space that we can deal 84 00:05:46.639 --> 00:05:51.199 with kind of geographical challenges in different ways. I mean, COVID there's been 85 00:05:51.199 --> 00:05:57.680 fantastic for accelerating the world's transition to online work. I think that's fair fair 86 00:05:57.720 --> 00:06:03.600 to say, and a huge tail wind for Superside and just an incredibly important 87 00:06:04.040 --> 00:06:10.839 proof point that it is possible to actually do work from home. You know, 88 00:06:11.439 --> 00:06:15.480 people are actually working when they're at home. It's not like, you 89 00:06:15.519 --> 00:06:19.879 know, people aren't just chilling around and you know, doing yoga and playing 90 00:06:19.959 --> 00:06:24.839 music and you know, having a good time. People are actually working and 91 00:06:24.920 --> 00:06:28.879 maybe actually people are working more when they're working from home. And so I 92 00:06:28.920 --> 00:06:36.199 think increasingly people are seeing that it's possible to build better companies in a fully 93 00:06:36.240 --> 00:06:42.519 remote context, or it's at the very least possible to embrace that as a 94 00:06:42.560 --> 00:06:46.480 strategy to get access to more talent. I think a lot of companies out 95 00:06:46.480 --> 00:06:51.759 there are feeling constrained by the lack of access to talent in their local labor 96 00:06:51.800 --> 00:06:57.240 markets. And so if you're a company in Oslo, for example, which 97 00:06:57.360 --> 00:07:01.279 is where I live in you know, mid sized capital in Europe, there's 98 00:07:01.360 --> 00:07:04.439 just no chance you're going to have access to all of the skills that you 99 00:07:04.519 --> 00:07:11.199 need to build you know, internationally competitive company within marketing and sales and creative 100 00:07:11.279 --> 00:07:15.839 like you need specialists from from every field. And maybe there are few large 101 00:07:15.959 --> 00:07:20.800 urban agglomerations in the world that can allow that that network, like you have 102 00:07:20.879 --> 00:07:25.079 San Francisco Bay Area, I don't know, ten to fifteen million people all 103 00:07:25.600 --> 00:07:28.720 working and thinking about technology, you know, New York, London and some 104 00:07:28.800 --> 00:07:31.839 of the sort of Chinese place you know, perhaps, but like most other 105 00:07:31.879 --> 00:07:36.839 places, you just wouldn't be able to get the level of access to talent 106 00:07:38.160 --> 00:07:43.680 to a reasonable level. And so I think remote is the only strategy for 107 00:07:43.720 --> 00:07:48.839 an ambitious technology company that is started in other places, and these large, 108 00:07:49.120 --> 00:07:55.360 large international tech clusters I think that that's really interesting and a powerful point that 109 00:07:55.720 --> 00:07:58.480 you know, if we are, if we're competing like in a global stage, 110 00:07:58.519 --> 00:08:01.240 and how can we because yeah, there's are these these big giants and 111 00:08:01.839 --> 00:08:05.480 some of the tech bohemoths in the United States can make it very difficult, 112 00:08:05.519 --> 00:08:09.439 right they can they gobble up talent, you know, but this idea in 113 00:08:09.560 --> 00:08:13.800 terms of that remote opens it up not only for I think the two sides, 114 00:08:13.839 --> 00:08:16.279 right. There's there's the talent side, right, like what access do 115 00:08:16.399 --> 00:08:18.000 I have as a creative to look for work? And then the other side, 116 00:08:18.040 --> 00:08:20.879 to your point, is making a better organization that can be more agile 117 00:08:20.920 --> 00:08:26.079 and work more quickly exactly talent, Yeah, exactly. And you know what's 118 00:08:26.120 --> 00:08:33.240 surprising to us is that the companies that have been fastest to embrace our service 119 00:08:33.279 --> 00:08:39.919 and the fastest to embrace online work in general, are the kind of existing 120 00:08:39.200 --> 00:08:46.080 technology companies. You know, like seventy percent of our customers are technology companies, 121 00:08:46.120 --> 00:08:50.279 and we would definitely be like a great solution for you know, a 122 00:08:50.320 --> 00:08:56.519 mid sized company in a smaller city where the access to talent wasn't necessarily as 123 00:08:56.600 --> 00:09:01.799 good. But we nevertheless see kind of more most are demand coming in San 124 00:09:01.840 --> 00:09:05.639 Francisco, New York, Seattle, and you know, maybe that's a cultural 125 00:09:07.480 --> 00:09:11.639 thing. Maybe it's more early adopters. They're you know, maybe in San 126 00:09:11.639 --> 00:09:16.440 Francisco, your particular, like the kind of wages in the local labor markets 127 00:09:16.600 --> 00:09:20.279 are so insanely high that its people find it hard. Maybe it's just hard 128 00:09:20.360 --> 00:09:24.960 to find talent in those in those places. But yeah, nevertheless, just 129 00:09:24.200 --> 00:09:28.679 a bit of a pustling situation that we're mostly embraced by the people that kind 130 00:09:28.679 --> 00:09:33.279 of strictly speaking need it the least. Yeah, that is interesting, I 131 00:09:33.320 --> 00:09:35.720 guess I mean thinking like putting on your Marketer hat to that from your your 132 00:09:35.799 --> 00:09:39.200 other life as well. How how can we think about that, like what 133 00:09:39.320 --> 00:09:41.639 is it? You know, are there ways to help, you know, 134 00:09:41.759 --> 00:09:46.080 bring the conversation to smaller markets in Norway or smaller markets in Tanzania, you 135 00:09:46.120 --> 00:09:52.080 know, or Jakarta that we can kind of familiarize ourselves with this this type 136 00:09:52.120 --> 00:09:54.559 of working with with kind of liquid super teams, we might say. I 137 00:09:54.559 --> 00:10:00.480 mean, I think technology obviously lends itself perfectly well to like in just cotributed 138 00:10:00.840 --> 00:10:05.120 this way because the product that you're delivering is is digital and so distributed is 139 00:10:05.360 --> 00:10:09.840 fine. Like if you have a factory and so on. It is, 140 00:10:09.679 --> 00:10:13.679 it is, it is harder, and you definitely see more traditional industries resisting 141 00:10:13.840 --> 00:10:20.080 transition too remote work more. I think that's a huge opportunity for people that 142 00:10:20.159 --> 00:10:24.480 want to break break out of that to be to be perfectly honest, for 143 00:10:26.879 --> 00:10:31.679 you know, consumer packaged goods company or a retail company or whatever, you 144 00:10:31.759 --> 00:10:37.240 know, to have significant parts of the organization globally distributed. I think that's 145 00:10:37.240 --> 00:10:41.120 a huge opportunit. And then I think we're gonna increasingly see companies or large 146 00:10:41.120 --> 00:10:46.080 companies embracing that. That's kind of a competitive competitive edge. But it will 147 00:10:46.120 --> 00:10:50.759 take time. But you know, the curve is exponential every year, you 148 00:10:50.840 --> 00:10:56.080 know, millions of people. Over the next decade two decades, we're going 149 00:10:56.159 --> 00:11:00.679 to probably see a few hundred people fully move online. And so so you 150 00:11:00.720 --> 00:11:03.799 know, these exponential curves tend to you know, start small, but then 151 00:11:05.159 --> 00:11:11.480 suddenly become pretty massive and feel like wholest revolutions that of cross across all of 152 00:11:11.559 --> 00:11:13.960 all of society. So it will be will be interesting to see what it's 153 00:11:15.200 --> 00:11:18.960 what is it going to do to kind of the global momo culture or you 154 00:11:18.000 --> 00:11:22.039 know, global culture in general. Would be very interesting to say, yeah, 155 00:11:22.120 --> 00:11:26.240 no, I agree to it. It's it's always this interesting conversation where 156 00:11:26.279 --> 00:11:30.320 it's like how do we think about or like how do we imagine the stories 157 00:11:30.360 --> 00:11:31.879 that we can tell right about what that future can be? You know, 158 00:11:33.120 --> 00:11:35.799 and and you know, one of the ideas that that comes out of your 159 00:11:35.799 --> 00:11:39.759 work in Superside is that you know, the internet has helped make and like 160 00:11:39.799 --> 00:11:43.000 remote work has helped to make talent more about merit and not like how close 161 00:11:43.039 --> 00:11:46.200 am I to an office? Right? And so I'd love to think about 162 00:11:46.240 --> 00:11:48.320 this with you and kind of talk about you know, you mentioned the idea 163 00:11:48.320 --> 00:11:52.200 of democratizing access to top talent into into work, and so let's break this 164 00:11:52.279 --> 00:11:56.759 down, like what does it mean that we now have kind of a broader 165 00:11:56.799 --> 00:12:01.879 ability to make our work about talent versus am I close to some certain place? 166 00:12:01.080 --> 00:12:05.159 Well, it means a ton And it's a great question, and especially 167 00:12:05.279 --> 00:12:13.360 means a lot to people that were previously discriminated against straight And I think there's 168 00:12:13.360 --> 00:12:18.440 a lot of groups that have smaller or larger labor market discrimination issues. I 169 00:12:18.480 --> 00:12:24.399 mean, if the male female they wage gap is you know, often talked 170 00:12:24.399 --> 00:12:28.879 about, and it's you know, still persistent and pretty big even in you 171 00:12:28.919 --> 00:12:33.080 know, Norway and the US, like reasonably, you know, mature economists 172 00:12:33.120 --> 00:12:37.480 on the internet, you actually don't see that difference. And you know, 173 00:12:37.559 --> 00:12:41.320 you look at data from the payment provider Paionaire or from at work and any 174 00:12:41.320 --> 00:12:46.679 of these large platforms and you basically see general wage gap across skills is basically 175 00:12:48.440 --> 00:12:54.360 non existent. And you see many examples, and our own companies is a 176 00:12:54.440 --> 00:13:03.159 case in point of of people with various you know, attitudes or you know, 177 00:13:03.279 --> 00:13:09.159 the LGBT community, people with like various you know, behavioral or people 178 00:13:09.159 --> 00:13:11.639 that really wants to be at home. Like all these type of people that 179 00:13:11.720 --> 00:13:18.440 are handicapped or beast or whatever like that we're historically like massively discriminated against in 180 00:13:18.600 --> 00:13:26.120 the local labor market are now seeing just massive amount they will be like relatively 181 00:13:26.159 --> 00:13:31.000 speaking, the big winners on the internet because it's just working on this person 182 00:13:31.399 --> 00:13:35.039 remote and it's ACYNC and some gurgle shit and once in a while you log 183 00:13:35.120 --> 00:13:39.159 onto it like why would you carry you know, like there's no reason to 184 00:13:39.159 --> 00:13:43.039 discriminate anymore. Like all you care about is getting the best people to do 185 00:13:43.720 --> 00:13:50.360 the best work. And you know when you when you are then applying this 186 00:13:50.360 --> 00:13:56.879 this very kind of systematic, data driven, meritocratic approach to screening talent, 187 00:13:58.000 --> 00:14:03.960 it turns out that you just get this like rainbow of people and that's that's 188 00:14:03.000 --> 00:14:09.399 fantastic now and so and for us, it's like one of the most fulfilling 189 00:14:09.519 --> 00:14:15.240 new parts of building this company, seeing this incredible diversity that we've built up 190 00:14:15.240 --> 00:14:18.200 and it's not been by the sign And I can understand why people are like 191 00:14:18.480 --> 00:14:22.120 annoyed we need to quote us for these things, and like, I understand 192 00:14:22.120 --> 00:14:26.360 that it can be like people can be in opposition to that. But we 193 00:14:26.519 --> 00:14:31.320 haven't assigned our company to become diverse, right, We've decided our company to 194 00:14:31.360 --> 00:14:39.919 become high highly performant. Like we've designed our company to be very very rigorous 195 00:14:39.919 --> 00:14:43.279 in the way we assess people. And then the outcome of that is, 196 00:14:43.480 --> 00:14:48.960 you know, this hugely diverse company, you know of eight hundred people in 197 00:14:48.039 --> 00:14:52.960 seventy five different countries, with all kinds of shapes and sizes and colors and 198 00:14:54.080 --> 00:14:58.480 hair colors and hairstyles. It's it's always you know, it's always like a 199 00:14:58.600 --> 00:15:03.759 surprise to log onto some video call and just see like ten people and it's 200 00:15:03.799 --> 00:15:07.840 all like looking so so different, and I think we're out there to prove 201 00:15:07.919 --> 00:15:11.120 that that that's just a great way to to build a business, right. 202 00:15:11.360 --> 00:15:18.000 I think the story it's much it's it's it's it's very important to to not 203 00:15:18.679 --> 00:15:22.799 tell the story that it's kind of bad for business, but we still should 204 00:15:22.879 --> 00:15:26.679 go out and hire more women, you know, like if you start to 205 00:15:26.720 --> 00:15:31.000 have that story that sort of tends to tain that particular group or tends to 206 00:15:31.080 --> 00:15:35.720 kind of say women are less talented and then men, but we're still gonna 207 00:15:35.919 --> 00:15:39.399 like that that has that implicit bias in So I think it's much more important 208 00:15:39.399 --> 00:15:45.080 to say, actually, it's you should revisit the way you're hiring people, 209 00:15:45.120 --> 00:15:48.559 you should revisit the way you screen people. And if you do, and 210 00:15:48.600 --> 00:15:52.360 if you do it in a fair data driven way, the outcome will most 211 00:15:52.519 --> 00:15:56.279 likely be a pretty diverse company. And if you don't have a diverse company 212 00:15:56.320 --> 00:16:03.240 today, that's probably ours salt of implicit biases that you've built into your screening 213 00:16:03.279 --> 00:16:07.960 process. And it's sort of like a data on measurement error. So that's 214 00:16:07.960 --> 00:16:11.840 a little bit our approach to it. That's really interesting And I love this 215 00:16:11.919 --> 00:16:15.240 idea too, kind of like it's it's how do we widen that conversation but 216 00:16:15.279 --> 00:16:18.639 also be serious about the fact that oftentimes, if organizations have a lack of 217 00:16:18.639 --> 00:16:22.799 diversity, it's actually often implicit bias of their screening processes, right of how 218 00:16:22.799 --> 00:16:26.600 they're like getting talent and looking for folks in the first place, and tending 219 00:16:26.639 --> 00:16:30.960 to have like a confirmation bias where I want to hire something that looks like 220 00:16:30.000 --> 00:16:33.519 me, even if I don't think I'm doing that, if i'm if I'm 221 00:16:33.519 --> 00:16:37.000 screening people based on names, and then how the interview process goes. I 222 00:16:37.039 --> 00:16:38.320 like the idea of thinking about this as a data err or too. That's 223 00:16:38.320 --> 00:16:41.360 a nice, a nice kind of additional piece that we could think about that 224 00:16:41.480 --> 00:16:45.559 it's it's like a flaw in our in our kind of models using our human 225 00:16:45.600 --> 00:16:48.840 minds versus versus different kind of data, different approaches that are not based on 226 00:16:48.960 --> 00:16:52.159 some of the more subjective qualities that people kind of implicitly carry in their in 227 00:16:52.200 --> 00:16:53.960 their heads. And I think also this this idea, I think it really 228 00:16:55.320 --> 00:16:59.039 stands out important too, is that you know, as you noted, that 229 00:16:59.279 --> 00:17:03.680 diversity tends to be a like natural outcome if we can say natural, you 230 00:17:03.680 --> 00:17:07.119 know, but just like a common outcome when you're using the you know, 231 00:17:07.119 --> 00:17:10.079 different kind of data, different approach that's like premised on let's get the best 232 00:17:10.119 --> 00:17:12.279 talent, right and the best kind of folks that are that are able to 233 00:17:12.319 --> 00:17:17.400 provide the best services. And I think that's really interesting and important as a 234 00:17:17.400 --> 00:17:19.759 way to help wake up I think other organizations too, in terms of there 235 00:17:19.799 --> 00:17:22.759 are better ways we can hire and that we can screen for work, and 236 00:17:22.839 --> 00:17:26.839 it can be based on doing good work right and not get stuck in these 237 00:17:26.880 --> 00:17:32.039 these kind of typical resume boxes of you know, hit these five marks and 238 00:17:32.039 --> 00:17:33.319 then ultimately let me interview you. But I'm gonna get the person that looks 239 00:17:33.319 --> 00:17:36.759 the most like me or that that that reminds me of me, even if 240 00:17:36.759 --> 00:17:37.640 that's implicit, right, And I mean that's one of the other kind of 241 00:17:37.640 --> 00:17:41.839 insidious parts we find with interviews. Absolutely, And I mean I think there's 242 00:17:41.920 --> 00:17:47.720 lots of problems with with resumes, and it's just very hard to avoid looking 243 00:17:47.759 --> 00:17:52.160 at them. Right. But it's at the best like a weak correlation between 244 00:17:52.240 --> 00:18:00.680 like the pedigree of your prior institution and the actual you know, quot the 245 00:18:00.759 --> 00:18:06.559 job that this person will will will perform and and and we've made the Missike 246 00:18:06.599 --> 00:18:11.599 a lot of times of hiring. You know this like classic archetype from you 247 00:18:11.640 --> 00:18:18.400 know, Harvard or some other prestigious places and you're going to concerting firm and 248 00:18:18.480 --> 00:18:22.160 like it might it might be good, but it might not. You know, 249 00:18:22.200 --> 00:18:26.799 it's like very hard to say. And I think our approach you really 250 00:18:26.839 --> 00:18:34.079 believe in is tom plays a much greater weight on evolving our capabilities to test 251 00:18:36.559 --> 00:18:41.319 skills and the test abilities and values in a more structured way. And so 252 00:18:41.359 --> 00:18:48.359 we play a much greater reliance on case assessments and various other structured tests that 253 00:18:48.400 --> 00:18:53.880 we're doing. And you praise a great deal of importance on screening for values, 254 00:18:55.119 --> 00:18:56.960 and it's something that we're trying to do in an explicit way. But 255 00:18:57.000 --> 00:19:03.039 it's obviously, as you know, answer apologies is you know hard to like 256 00:19:03.559 --> 00:19:07.559 assess people for values. But something we try to think about, you know, 257 00:19:07.640 --> 00:19:14.799 our number one value in supersidors is to be kind and so and so 258 00:19:14.799 --> 00:19:18.880 so, so that is something that we try to like understand through like into 259 00:19:18.920 --> 00:19:25.119 your process and try to you know, elicit from reference checking and and a 260 00:19:25.200 --> 00:19:29.000 song. But but it is obviously, you know, very hard because most 261 00:19:29.039 --> 00:19:33.359 people are generally you know, behaving pretty nicely in and into context. So 262 00:19:33.799 --> 00:19:36.640 yeah, you have to give like a little little stories, right, like 263 00:19:37.000 --> 00:19:38.440 read the story and then see whould you help and how would you help them? 264 00:19:38.799 --> 00:19:41.640 Yeah, it's like ethical apuzzles. Yeah, you know you have the 265 00:19:41.680 --> 00:19:45.480 tram and then five people, and then you put it and then one people 266 00:19:45.519 --> 00:19:48.039 and the other the other tracks. I don't know, no, but I 267 00:19:48.039 --> 00:19:56.039 guess our recommendation is to really put the great amount of thinking into standardized testing. 268 00:19:56.519 --> 00:20:03.759 Standardized testing has gotten a very bad rep because it's basically, in people's 269 00:20:03.759 --> 00:20:07.759 mind means the SAT or something and SAT probably has a lot of flaws, 270 00:20:07.960 --> 00:20:12.440 or IQ testing and IQ testing probably has a lot of flaws, right, 271 00:20:12.599 --> 00:20:17.200 and so so, but there's a little bit of it. That doesn't mean 272 00:20:17.279 --> 00:20:22.359 it's not possible to create structured assessment frameworks. It just means that we need 273 00:20:22.400 --> 00:20:30.640 to evolve beyond it is, beyond IQ testing toward more sophisticated ways of testing. 274 00:20:30.720 --> 00:20:36.119 And that's what we're sort of constantly working on and trying to improve and 275 00:20:36.160 --> 00:20:40.759 trying to make into our one of the kind of key company ips that that 276 00:20:40.920 --> 00:20:42.480 we have. That sounds great, and I think that that's a really valuable 277 00:20:42.480 --> 00:20:47.799 point too, where you know. Oftentimes It's like the anthropologist and ethnographer Tricia 278 00:20:47.839 --> 00:20:49.759 Wong, you know, talks about that oftentimes, like one of the challenges 279 00:20:49.759 --> 00:20:53.440 when we try to quantify and measure things that sometimes will be more subjective things 280 00:20:53.440 --> 00:20:56.599 like a value, right, it's that we can put the numbers on the 281 00:20:56.599 --> 00:20:59.799 wrong things. But then the flip side, I mean, also what you're 282 00:20:59.799 --> 00:21:02.720 saying here is that we're trying to measure what actually matters to people, right, 283 00:21:02.880 --> 00:21:04.720 and that's that's what we need to do in that I think I take 284 00:21:04.720 --> 00:21:07.880 your point. It's it's well said. In terms of the standardized testing tends 285 00:21:07.880 --> 00:21:11.200 to get a bad rap because it is like the s A T or or 286 00:21:11.480 --> 00:21:15.440 you know, different tests per grade for students. They don't tell us much 287 00:21:15.480 --> 00:21:18.000 about the you know, the ability for someone to succeed in a space. 288 00:21:18.079 --> 00:21:21.440 Right. It's more just like can you can you answer these questions in a 289 00:21:21.440 --> 00:21:25.319 way that than is satisfactory to the test. But but to your point, 290 00:21:25.400 --> 00:21:26.640 like why couldn't we have all those kinds of questions, right? And we 291 00:21:26.640 --> 00:21:30.119 do that all the time with other and other industries in other areas, you 292 00:21:30.160 --> 00:21:33.920 know. I mean the example that comes to mind is the biological anthropologist Helen 293 00:21:33.960 --> 00:21:38.319 Fisher. Doctor Helen Fisher has done a number of really interesting studies both for 294 00:21:38.400 --> 00:21:41.359 match dot com, the dating website, and Chemistry there, their parent company, 295 00:21:41.799 --> 00:21:47.000 on how we ask standardized questions of match and mate finding, and so 296 00:21:47.039 --> 00:21:49.799 it's like these sites actually have some of the best ways of engaging with people, 297 00:21:49.920 --> 00:21:53.279 you know, but in part because they're designed qualitatively like with with you 298 00:21:53.279 --> 00:21:56.680 know, this kind of an I think, you know, I'm biased, 299 00:21:56.680 --> 00:21:59.039 but my anthropological mindset, you know, in terms of how do we ask 300 00:21:59.200 --> 00:22:03.200 questions that really to the heart of what people value, right, and then 301 00:22:03.240 --> 00:22:04.720 if we do that enough over time with data, then we actually can begin 302 00:22:04.720 --> 00:22:10.680 to see patterns right in builds some correlations, absolutely absolutely, And it's also 303 00:22:10.759 --> 00:22:12.799 like kind of a discredited field historically where we have you know, the m 304 00:22:12.839 --> 00:22:18.799 METI and the Big five and these things, which is like both both with 305 00:22:18.960 --> 00:22:27.200 like serious methodological problems and also with this like pretty fair criticism in my opinion, 306 00:22:27.200 --> 00:22:32.400 which is it sort of like takes a human and reduces it to like 307 00:22:32.480 --> 00:22:36.880 these these dimensions. When annual animally takes this test is life, does it 308 00:22:37.000 --> 00:22:42.519 like fully adequately explain me special my special self to have like extrovert introvert like, 309 00:22:42.880 --> 00:22:48.880 thinker feeler like, or you know, is that like a useful way? 310 00:22:48.920 --> 00:22:52.039 And so I strongly believe that there needs to be lots of innovation in 311 00:22:52.079 --> 00:23:03.079 this particular field of assessing value match with an organization because it is incredibly important 312 00:23:03.720 --> 00:23:07.160 both for you as an individual and your own well being, Like what is 313 00:23:07.200 --> 00:23:10.680 this place? You know? Like will I be happy here? You know? 314 00:23:10.759 --> 00:23:15.319 What are all these guys talking about? And for the organization as a 315 00:23:15.359 --> 00:23:18.359 whole. You tend to see just and this is our experience, and I 316 00:23:18.359 --> 00:23:22.640 think a lot of other people's experience, but I think you tend to see 317 00:23:22.319 --> 00:23:27.519 that it's just so much easier to collaborate if you share a set of values 318 00:23:27.559 --> 00:23:36.359 and if you are aligned around a common vision for the future. But it's 319 00:23:36.400 --> 00:23:44.119 still just so hard to assess. And we just constantly make mistakes, right, 320 00:23:44.240 --> 00:23:47.119 And I would say nine outs or ten times that we make a hiring 321 00:23:47.920 --> 00:23:52.039 error, it is because of values. It is not because of performance. 322 00:23:52.119 --> 00:23:57.920 It is someone that it doesn't necessarily like to work hard, or isn't necessarily 323 00:23:57.960 --> 00:24:04.079 that nice, or you know, isn't truth seeking political Like we have all 324 00:24:04.079 --> 00:24:07.039 of these values that we care about, obviously, But and so if we 325 00:24:07.079 --> 00:24:12.960 would be if we would improve our ability to assess values, we would dramatically 326 00:24:14.759 --> 00:24:17.720 reduce the number of hiring mistakes, which would be better for us and then 327 00:24:18.160 --> 00:24:19.960 obviously a lot better for the for the people. Like most of the times 328 00:24:19.960 --> 00:24:25.240 when we've made these hiring mistakes, then this person goes on to have like 329 00:24:25.359 --> 00:24:30.000 tremendously you know, like a successful career else elsewhere where there's just a better, 330 00:24:30.799 --> 00:24:37.039 a better you know, cultural cultural. Yeah, that's a really I 331 00:24:37.039 --> 00:24:40.440 think it's a really fascinating point too. And you know, especially unlike the 332 00:24:40.720 --> 00:24:42.880 employe or the talent side, when you're looking for an organization to work at 333 00:24:44.000 --> 00:24:48.400 or with, it is, it can be often hard to assess that value 334 00:24:48.440 --> 00:24:49.839 question right and like will that line up, especially because there's a lot of 335 00:24:49.880 --> 00:24:53.160 you know, as we know, uncertainty and emotion in the process of applying 336 00:24:53.200 --> 00:24:56.119 for a job traditionally too, right, you know, the interview process, 337 00:24:56.160 --> 00:24:59.319 the resume, whether you're doing case studies, you know, to kind of 338 00:24:59.319 --> 00:25:03.559 how you're how you're of vetted. Uh and and there's a lot of a 339 00:25:03.599 --> 00:25:07.440 lot at stake in terms of that. Oftentimes people I don't know have to 340 00:25:07.519 --> 00:25:08.559 if I have to say lie, but like a lot of people will like 341 00:25:08.599 --> 00:25:12.119 stretch how much they care about something or because they want to get a job, 342 00:25:12.359 --> 00:25:15.759 not because they're they're trying to like be untruthful, but just like it's 343 00:25:15.759 --> 00:25:18.160 also important that I get paid, you know, and then I can I 344 00:25:18.200 --> 00:25:21.680 can sustain myself, you know. So there's an interesting like conundrum there. 345 00:25:21.720 --> 00:25:26.640 I appreciate the line of thinking here and how we can happen for sure. 346 00:25:26.079 --> 00:25:29.319 And that's the type of thing, right, Yeah, you present someone with 347 00:25:29.400 --> 00:25:33.279 like a big five questionnaire during a job into an surprise, surprise, everyone 348 00:25:33.440 --> 00:25:41.160 is like incredibly conscientious all of a sudden, and so yeah, it's it's 349 00:25:41.480 --> 00:25:45.799 easy. There needs to be ways to like assist it. That doesn't you 350 00:25:45.839 --> 00:25:52.240 know, rely on this requirement to feel or to place the candidates under in 351 00:25:52.279 --> 00:25:55.160 this position or where they feel that they need to lie for sure? Do 352 00:25:55.200 --> 00:25:59.119 you think that like something that stands out too that that how super Side talks 353 00:25:59.119 --> 00:26:02.440 about the kind of work that you do, is that like you have you 354 00:26:02.480 --> 00:26:04.519 know, one of your immuitions is like creating jobs that are like eco opportunity. 355 00:26:04.559 --> 00:26:07.079 We've kind of we've kind of been talking about this obviously remote there's an 356 00:26:07.079 --> 00:26:11.440 important part of flexibility there, but also the deal of happy, like that 357 00:26:11.440 --> 00:26:14.599 the employees can be happy and feel good about that work. And so I 358 00:26:14.640 --> 00:26:17.319 feel like that the value question and the culture question that we're talking about here 359 00:26:17.359 --> 00:26:19.640 is really important to that that part. But I love to hear you know, 360 00:26:19.839 --> 00:26:22.720 all these the elements are like other other elements that as you think about, 361 00:26:23.400 --> 00:26:26.480 how do we know what makes a job happy for people and how do 362 00:26:26.519 --> 00:26:30.039 we help like provide that that process. Yeah, look, I mean I 363 00:26:30.039 --> 00:26:33.319 think it's important. I think it's important for a lot of people this question 364 00:26:33.400 --> 00:26:38.400 on on values and mission and working for for a company that cares about that. 365 00:26:38.519 --> 00:26:41.759 But at the end of the day, there's there's also a lot of 366 00:26:41.799 --> 00:26:45.920 pretty basic things that people want. You know, people really want to get 367 00:26:45.920 --> 00:26:51.559 paid on time every month, so that's really nice if that happens. People 368 00:26:51.680 --> 00:26:55.880 ideally want to kind of make more over time. And if you work hard, 369 00:26:55.880 --> 00:26:59.000 do you want to get promoted? And you want to know if you're 370 00:26:59.000 --> 00:27:03.359 doing a good job or not, and you want that feedback to be given 371 00:27:03.359 --> 00:27:11.720 to you in a professional way by a manager that cares about your well being. 372 00:27:11.759 --> 00:27:18.279 And so these are kind of the basics that I think is a lot 373 00:27:18.400 --> 00:27:22.440 more important for people and many of these other things we've been speaking about, 374 00:27:22.519 --> 00:27:29.240 like, yes, it's nice that the company cares about the mission and the 375 00:27:29.319 --> 00:27:33.920 vision and the future of work and those things, but like these things, 376 00:27:33.200 --> 00:27:37.799 you know, if my boss hates me, or if I'm afraid of coming 377 00:27:37.799 --> 00:27:42.240 into work every month, there because you know my boss is terrible, that 378 00:27:42.880 --> 00:27:47.119 you know, that's obviously you know, much more impactful and much worse for 379 00:27:48.240 --> 00:27:53.000 So we really try to focus on getting all of those basics in place and 380 00:27:53.160 --> 00:28:00.960 just doing a really really good job around providing people with a very clear and 381 00:28:02.680 --> 00:28:07.079 ideally very rapid career progression. And so our primary, let's ay pitch to 382 00:28:07.240 --> 00:28:14.799 candidates's actually more around Superside being the fastest possible way for you to accelerate your 383 00:28:15.240 --> 00:28:21.920 career. And so if you are ambitious and you are looking to learn and 384 00:28:22.000 --> 00:28:26.480 grow as quickly as you can, you can join Superside and then within three 385 00:28:26.599 --> 00:28:30.359 four years you can four or five x your salary, right, which is 386 00:28:30.400 --> 00:28:36.279 pretty pretty incredible. And we provide a bunch of resources to be able to 387 00:28:36.279 --> 00:28:44.200 to do that. And really we're incredibly passionate about our ability and the tools, 388 00:28:44.240 --> 00:28:51.000 the training and the infrastructure that we provide that allow people to grow so 389 00:28:51.119 --> 00:28:56.319 quickly that within a few years. Imagine an educational institution that you join and 390 00:28:56.359 --> 00:29:00.079 then you spend three years there and then you make five times as much the 391 00:29:00.119 --> 00:29:02.720 other side. You know, that's a pretty that would be a pretty incredible 392 00:29:02.799 --> 00:29:07.559 university at most most coultues like you basically just like play bear pong for four 393 00:29:07.640 --> 00:29:12.720 years and you know, hang around with the threat bros. And you know, 394 00:29:12.759 --> 00:29:18.200 you learn a little bit and and and so we're a bit skeptical about 395 00:29:18.279 --> 00:29:22.400 higher education in general, I guess, especially within a field like design, 396 00:29:22.440 --> 00:29:26.920 which is such a feel that is that is, it's such like a craft 397 00:29:27.000 --> 00:29:33.119 feel, like apprenticeship feel and where where where we feel if you do it 398 00:29:33.160 --> 00:29:37.039 in a in a structure and good way, in a sort of learn on 399 00:29:37.119 --> 00:29:41.000 the job type thing, you can massively you can massively grow. And so 400 00:29:41.000 --> 00:29:45.799 so that's that's really what we're we're the most passionate about. And I think 401 00:29:45.839 --> 00:29:52.680 that when people feel personal growth and when people feel company growth, that kind 402 00:29:52.720 --> 00:29:57.400 of solves all problems, almost all problems, like and I'm not saying that 403 00:29:57.480 --> 00:30:00.039 all the things aren't important, but like at the end of the day, 404 00:30:00.319 --> 00:30:03.359 you know, company doubled every year, like what has been doing over the 405 00:30:03.400 --> 00:30:11.039 past three years, almost nobody leaves, right if you yourself every every year 406 00:30:11.119 --> 00:30:12.519 you improve it. So like I think, you know, you work in 407 00:30:12.519 --> 00:30:17.759 some traditional agency, every year you're going down like five percent, five percent, 408 00:30:17.880 --> 00:30:22.480 like TVs, like less and less advertising. You know, it's you're 409 00:30:22.559 --> 00:30:26.079 struggling to hold on to clients, getting harder harder, like there's no room 410 00:30:26.160 --> 00:30:32.119 to grow. Obviously, those people are looking for for alternative places to grow, 411 00:30:32.200 --> 00:30:34.839 to get better opportunities. And then so then we're seeing this like, 412 00:30:36.799 --> 00:30:42.799 yeah, we're seeing this massive influx of applications and people looking to escape the 413 00:30:42.960 --> 00:30:48.440 agency world and work in a place where you get personal and in company growth. 414 00:30:49.480 --> 00:30:52.079 That's fantastic too, I mean, and also congratulations, that's incredible to 415 00:30:52.079 --> 00:30:55.519 here that's kind of doubling over the past the past three years and with like 416 00:30:55.599 --> 00:30:57.279 such a load to note, turnover is also incredible, right because that's one 417 00:30:57.319 --> 00:31:00.519 of the big questions we're seeing in organizations now, right, is that, 418 00:31:00.839 --> 00:31:03.960 especially because of the pandemic, there's been a huge amount of turnover. Right 419 00:31:04.000 --> 00:31:07.680 is, folks are the Great resignation some people call it, right or the 420 00:31:07.680 --> 00:31:11.440 Great rethinking or whatever it is. Yeah, just logging on the new Google 421 00:31:11.480 --> 00:31:17.559 hangoff Lincoln on one neck. It's yeah, yeah, right, yeah, 422 00:31:17.680 --> 00:31:21.240 that says something really important. I think that that folks are kind of sticking 423 00:31:21.240 --> 00:31:25.559 with it in that testament to kind of the space that's provided. Also, 424 00:31:25.799 --> 00:31:29.200 you know, I like the way that you have kind of broken down these 425 00:31:29.200 --> 00:31:32.079 two sides where there is the bigger picture of the right kind of culture fit 426 00:31:32.119 --> 00:31:33.839 and values, but then also there's there's a lot of this concrete, we 427 00:31:33.920 --> 00:31:37.960 might say right pieces of getting paid on time, But then also are we 428 00:31:37.000 --> 00:31:40.200 helping people feel like they're growing. I think that's also one of the big 429 00:31:40.240 --> 00:31:41.440 things. That's one of the big reasons that we see people have ever resigned 430 00:31:41.440 --> 00:31:45.079 so much over the past few years too, is that they they don't feel 431 00:31:45.079 --> 00:31:47.680 they're getting anywhere in their job and don't have definition of how that they're going 432 00:31:47.759 --> 00:31:52.599 to get anywhere. And the number one recent people state in surveys why they 433 00:31:53.000 --> 00:31:57.400 don't like or if when they're not happy with their job is is that they 434 00:31:57.400 --> 00:32:02.000 don't like their That's the number one thing. And so yeah, it's obviously 435 00:32:02.119 --> 00:32:09.079 very hard as an organization to control, but it's again it's like values thing, 436 00:32:09.240 --> 00:32:15.640 yeah, and then creating like very clear requirements for bosses to follow, 437 00:32:15.799 --> 00:32:21.880 Like managers everywhere in our organization have a very clear set of obligations that they 438 00:32:21.920 --> 00:32:25.680 need to here to term toward their their individuality members. I think that that 439 00:32:25.799 --> 00:32:30.000 that's a great point, right, because oftentimes people can get promoted into management 440 00:32:30.039 --> 00:32:31.920 without having any management experience, and then there's no clear ways of how to 441 00:32:32.000 --> 00:32:37.680 manage, and then that's oftentimes where you'll see the train derail for sure. 442 00:32:37.720 --> 00:32:39.039 But I mean I'm not there, you know, I'm not sure if I'm 443 00:32:39.119 --> 00:32:43.599 like the best boss ever. I think probably for everyone, it will be 444 00:32:43.680 --> 00:32:47.599 some people that you're good for, some people that you don't, you're not 445 00:32:49.079 --> 00:32:54.000 good for. It's like all it's like little chemistry kind of kind of question. 446 00:32:54.920 --> 00:32:59.680 But know what, I what I wanted to say is like I think 447 00:32:59.759 --> 00:33:05.079 it's actually not necessarily that hard to like move into management. A lot of 448 00:33:05.079 --> 00:33:08.680 people make a big, very big deal out of that, and a lot 449 00:33:08.720 --> 00:33:12.720 of people when they become managers for the first time, they just try to 450 00:33:12.799 --> 00:33:15.839 do all this kind of stuff, you know, like, but it's not 451 00:33:15.920 --> 00:33:22.279 necessarily needed. Like most people are reasonably good at their job want to be 452 00:33:22.440 --> 00:33:25.200 like more or less left alone, and when they have a problem, they 453 00:33:25.240 --> 00:33:29.680 will come and say, hey, can you help me this thing? And 454 00:33:29.720 --> 00:33:34.359 then yahn, the boss needs to then help with that thing and say hey, 455 00:33:34.400 --> 00:33:37.000 good job, and that's it. You know, It's it's not that 456 00:33:37.200 --> 00:33:40.039 complicated, but a lot of people kind of make it out to be way, 457 00:33:40.200 --> 00:33:45.880 way too complicated. So we're we're trying to in our kind of internal 458 00:33:45.920 --> 00:33:52.640 management training, it's just trying to simplify, simplify, and and align around 459 00:33:52.720 --> 00:34:00.000 this idea that as a manager, your primary objective is to to help when 460 00:34:00.119 --> 00:34:04.440 needed, people will come to you for problems. Yeah, that's really interesting 461 00:34:04.440 --> 00:34:07.679 and I think an important point, right that we can frequently kind of overcomplicate 462 00:34:07.719 --> 00:34:09.800 the story because it's like I have to do all these things now I have 463 00:34:09.840 --> 00:34:13.880 this kind of new role. But then sometimes it's like the idea of ocom's 464 00:34:13.920 --> 00:34:15.880 razor, right, the simplest answer can be the best, you know, 465 00:34:15.880 --> 00:34:19.079 it's like be there to help and support and help them then get to the 466 00:34:19.079 --> 00:34:22.360 next the next stage themselves. Yeah. The follow up question I was thinking 467 00:34:22.360 --> 00:34:27.239 with this is the kind of importance of psychological safety right in the workplace and 468 00:34:27.239 --> 00:34:30.480 how this is important especially for kind of the two things I've seen Superside kind 469 00:34:30.480 --> 00:34:34.280 of talk about is like the importance of the psychological safety for things like speed 470 00:34:34.440 --> 00:34:37.599 and creativity, right, that I can kind of take creative risks both as 471 00:34:37.599 --> 00:34:40.039 a as a designer creator, but also I think as an employee too, 472 00:34:40.119 --> 00:34:44.480 right, and then speed in terms of how the question of protactivity and what 473 00:34:44.559 --> 00:34:45.480 kind of work I can do. So I'd love to kind of hear your 474 00:34:45.519 --> 00:34:50.760 thoughts at about this this idea of this framework and how this plays into you 475 00:34:50.760 --> 00:34:52.159 know, kind of supersides super growth, we might say, you know, 476 00:34:52.159 --> 00:34:57.000 how do you think about this idea? So we have a value superside which 477 00:34:57.000 --> 00:35:02.679 we call seek the Truth, and we fated protably incredibly important and we feel 478 00:35:02.679 --> 00:35:09.199 it permits the organization and has really become a pretty powerful part of our of 479 00:35:09.280 --> 00:35:16.000 our values of our culture. In order to seek the truth, you need 480 00:35:16.079 --> 00:35:24.159 to have a lot of curiosity. You need to have people that challenge each 481 00:35:24.199 --> 00:35:29.840 other. You need to have a lot of people asking stupid questions. Almost 482 00:35:29.880 --> 00:35:37.559 always the questions that push the discussion to the truth are simple stupid questions about 483 00:35:37.599 --> 00:35:44.000 why are we doing this? And in order to have everyone there ask those 484 00:35:45.000 --> 00:35:51.519 questions, there needs to be a great amount of psychological safety. And I 485 00:35:51.559 --> 00:35:58.000 feel very often organizations that taught that they are so truth seeking tend to build 486 00:35:58.360 --> 00:36:08.719 cultures that are deliberately, like overtally aggressive towards people that are challenging authority, 487 00:36:09.760 --> 00:36:14.800 and that definitely backfires. And and I don't think you can have a truth 488 00:36:14.840 --> 00:36:23.199 seeking organization without having authority, you know, being massively open to criticism and 489 00:36:23.280 --> 00:36:29.880 to challenges to your to your authority and and so so that's hard, right. 490 00:36:30.719 --> 00:36:36.039 It's like, I don't know what kind of intelligence briefings Vladimir Putin is 491 00:36:36.079 --> 00:36:40.960 getting from his like cronies in his intelligence services about how things are going really 492 00:36:42.039 --> 00:36:45.440 like in Ukraine. Like maybe his vision is that he's, you know, 493 00:36:45.519 --> 00:36:51.079 winning and everything's going super well. Like it's hard to say. It's hard 494 00:36:51.079 --> 00:36:58.360 to create like a truth seeking a truth seeking culture. And so for me, 495 00:36:58.440 --> 00:37:04.320 it's for me, it's something that I sort of constantly constantly think about 496 00:37:04.400 --> 00:37:07.960 and and feel that it's like one of the most important responsibilities for me and 497 00:37:07.960 --> 00:37:14.280 and also for for all of our management to to try to create the culture 498 00:37:14.320 --> 00:37:20.920 that constantly challenges aus and tells me, hey, this is bullshit, you 499 00:37:20.920 --> 00:37:25.199 know, like this this idea is not a good idea. I disagree with 500 00:37:25.239 --> 00:37:29.920 this. And the way we try to do that, then I think we 501 00:37:29.960 --> 00:37:34.360 can be a lot better. I like most people don't like it when people 502 00:37:34.559 --> 00:37:37.920 say that my ideas are bad, right, and so very tempting to go 503 00:37:38.199 --> 00:37:42.480 against it. But but the way we're trying to do that, and I 504 00:37:42.559 --> 00:37:50.840 personally, hand to the heart, I believe that I am think that I 505 00:37:50.880 --> 00:37:54.400 really enjoy being with people that challenge that challenge me, and I tend to 506 00:37:54.480 --> 00:38:01.000 think much more highly of junior people, like people that report to me when 507 00:38:01.119 --> 00:38:06.480 they say that they disagree, when they openly in a big meeting say hey, 508 00:38:06.760 --> 00:38:07.960 I actually don't think this is a good then I'm like, okay, 509 00:38:08.039 --> 00:38:10.960 wow, this is a this is a talented guy, like we need to 510 00:38:12.039 --> 00:38:15.960 keep we need to keep this person around and give this person more. So, 511 00:38:15.960 --> 00:38:19.079 so I think, yeah, so I think that's the most important piece 512 00:38:19.119 --> 00:38:22.119 to like constantly reward that kind of behavior. And then when people see, 513 00:38:22.159 --> 00:38:27.480 hey, this person there, you know, got promoted twice and but it's 514 00:38:27.480 --> 00:38:31.719 constantly like going against the CEO, then then hopefully that sort of sets an 515 00:38:31.719 --> 00:38:37.119 example that that's the way to behave in an organization. So that's that's how 516 00:38:37.119 --> 00:38:40.480 we in theory think about it. And then you know, again it's never 517 00:38:40.519 --> 00:38:45.519 felting people disagreee to Yeah, but it's but also but that's a that's a 518 00:38:45.559 --> 00:38:47.679 well said area because it's it is both difficult, but at the same time, 519 00:38:47.679 --> 00:38:51.480 I think it's nice because it's it's really up to leaders right to model 520 00:38:51.480 --> 00:38:53.800 that right. It's okay to to dissent as a world like respectfully of course, 521 00:38:53.960 --> 00:38:55.559 you know, but but the kind of say, I, you know, 522 00:38:55.639 --> 00:39:00.320 respectfully disagree because I'm thinking about this this other way or something saw with 523 00:39:00.400 --> 00:39:02.920 how evidence that another approach can work to or something. I think it's really 524 00:39:02.920 --> 00:39:07.719 important. And so it seems that a lot you know today more top leadership 525 00:39:07.880 --> 00:39:10.119 is also going to be open to this right. And obviously it's like the 526 00:39:10.159 --> 00:39:13.920 great example of like political leaders are the ones that are most not upen to 527 00:39:13.960 --> 00:39:17.480 this. So you kind of need business to kind of help us rethink that 528 00:39:17.599 --> 00:39:25.400 absolutely absolutely and conflict is conflict isn't necessary. Like my style is personally, 529 00:39:25.440 --> 00:39:31.599 my style is relatively confrontational, which I guess a lot of people feel probably 530 00:39:31.639 --> 00:39:38.239 intimidated by or maybe just annoyed by. But it's it's to me also like 531 00:39:38.239 --> 00:39:44.639 pretty important to like push pushed through to eleven where you know you kind of 532 00:39:44.679 --> 00:39:49.559 get comfortable with conflict, you know, you get common, you get comfortable 533 00:39:50.159 --> 00:39:54.119 with disagreeminent with my co founders where we've been shouting at each other for for 534 00:39:54.639 --> 00:40:01.519 seven years. It feels just incredibly comfortable. It doesn't stress me out when 535 00:40:01.519 --> 00:40:07.280 we have disagreements. I know. It's like part of the method to seek 536 00:40:07.320 --> 00:40:12.159 to seek the truth. And so I think kind of conflict avoidance and being 537 00:40:12.280 --> 00:40:19.519 true or avoiding confrontation is is pretty antithetical to truth seeking as well, but 538 00:40:20.280 --> 00:40:22.639 have to be done in a you know, kind of respectful way. Of 539 00:40:22.679 --> 00:40:28.079 course. That's funny. It's I feel like I hear your your journalism background 540 00:40:28.079 --> 00:40:32.320 peaking out here. Yeah, I mean I was just working in like a 541 00:40:32.960 --> 00:40:39.639 regional newspapers. I didn't get to do like that much like critical undercover journalism. 542 00:40:39.679 --> 00:40:47.480 But no, definitely, definitely really cool occupation journalism. It's I think 543 00:40:49.519 --> 00:40:53.480 anyone working in journalisms is a very envious it's a very envious job, but 544 00:40:53.679 --> 00:40:58.559 really respect that profession for sure. Yeah, totally, totally. It is. 545 00:40:58.920 --> 00:41:00.639 It is one of the I think, one of the hart jobs on 546 00:41:00.679 --> 00:41:02.679 the planet. But it's important, Like I mean, it's based on truth 547 00:41:02.679 --> 00:41:06.599 seeking. So I think this is this has been a really really fascinating piece 548 00:41:06.639 --> 00:41:08.920 to see that like how that can also help us ask questions in this case 549 00:41:08.920 --> 00:41:10.800 of like what are we doing in the C suite and how are we as 550 00:41:10.960 --> 00:41:15.519 leaders frame our organizations too, So I think that's really powerful. This has 551 00:41:15.519 --> 00:41:19.559 been a really fascinating conversation, and I'm super enthused, you know, to 552 00:41:19.880 --> 00:41:22.760 share the kind of the world of Supersided with folks again, especially a lot 553 00:41:22.760 --> 00:41:24.599 of the design community, and folks I think will be really excited to get 554 00:41:24.599 --> 00:41:29.719 a sense of what's happening in the space and that there's there's opportunities for both 555 00:41:30.360 --> 00:41:34.079 well thought out employment and also like the idea of kind of talent based to 556 00:41:34.079 --> 00:41:37.360 work that we can really lean into and not be too worried about more traditional 557 00:41:37.400 --> 00:41:42.039 biases of hiring practices and things like that. But then also having an organization 558 00:41:42.119 --> 00:41:45.480 that is premised on this idea of kind of seeking the truth. And this 559 00:41:45.559 --> 00:41:46.800 is interesting because a lot of designers, you know, when I was teaching 560 00:41:46.800 --> 00:41:51.360 design a few years ago, you know, folks want to make beautiful things, 561 00:41:51.559 --> 00:41:52.599 but at the same time too, there's something, there's some kind of 562 00:41:52.639 --> 00:41:54.719 truth in the right kind of design. I would find a lot of students 563 00:41:54.760 --> 00:41:58.440 talk about, you know, and so I think it's interesting too that the 564 00:41:58.480 --> 00:42:00.760 field in which Superside is functioning, you know, both in terms of the 565 00:42:01.079 --> 00:42:06.599 design service, is that design itself can be a way of kind of revealing 566 00:42:06.599 --> 00:42:08.320 that truth we're hiding it, depending on what one it's trying to do. 567 00:42:08.760 --> 00:42:12.679 Absolutely, I mean, I think there's no shadow in the doubt in my 568 00:42:12.760 --> 00:42:16.760 mind that there is you know, objectively good and bad art and objectively good 569 00:42:16.760 --> 00:42:22.920 and bad design. I think it was definitely like this whole post modern period 570 00:42:22.039 --> 00:42:29.239 in human there was definitely like a side track and we clearly see no, 571 00:42:29.440 --> 00:42:30.880 we we clearly see that, and I mean it's just simple things, you 572 00:42:30.880 --> 00:42:37.239 know, like you know, around symmetry and around the logic of things and 573 00:42:37.480 --> 00:42:43.719 alignment and color composition, and it's like there are some loss to it, 574 00:42:43.760 --> 00:42:49.119 and there are there are differences, and so we really believe in in that 575 00:42:49.159 --> 00:42:53.679 obviously, like lots of room for in subjective interpretation and creativity and so on, 576 00:42:53.800 --> 00:42:59.719 but there's there's definitely it's definitely a craft, right, there are some 577 00:43:00.039 --> 00:43:04.280 insituction learn right on, and I think craft is the right word. Yeah. 578 00:43:04.360 --> 00:43:06.119 Yeah, but hey, Frederick, I want to say thank you so 579 00:43:06.199 --> 00:43:07.920 much for joining me on the podcast. Say this is really really fascinating conversation. 580 00:43:08.400 --> 00:43:12.000 Super enthus to hear about your organization and the work and learn about all 581 00:43:12.039 --> 00:43:14.519 the great stuff that you're doing. And I'm excited to share this out with 582 00:43:14.920 --> 00:43:17.079 the good people. Thanks a lot for having me. Really great to be 583 00:43:17.199 --> 00:43:21.400 here and exciting to meet you. And there we have it. A deep 584 00:43:21.480 --> 00:43:23.800 dive into the world of Superside, touching on the intersection of global talent, 585 00:43:23.920 --> 00:43:28.519 remote work, and the transformative power of design. You know, it's fascinating 586 00:43:28.559 --> 00:43:31.719 to see how in the midst of rapidly evolving work environments, companies like Superside 587 00:43:31.840 --> 00:43:36.800 are not just adapting, but they're thriving. They're challenging traditional norms and paving 588 00:43:36.840 --> 00:43:39.880 the way for a future where work knows no geographical bounds. Frederick's journey from 589 00:43:39.880 --> 00:43:45.760 the world of journalism to revolutionizing the creative and marketing industries underscores a critical insight 590 00:43:46.000 --> 00:43:49.599 that the future of work isn't just about where we work, but it's how 591 00:43:49.639 --> 00:43:52.840 we work together, and supersides mission to democratize access to top tier talent, 592 00:43:52.920 --> 00:43:58.000 regardless of their location, stands on this belief in the power of the Internet 593 00:43:58.079 --> 00:44:00.599 to bridge divides and create opportunities on a global scale. And yet, as 594 00:44:00.599 --> 00:44:04.679 we've explored today, this journey is not without us. Challenges, questions of 595 00:44:04.719 --> 00:44:07.880 management, company culture, and truly echable opportunities still remain at the forefront. 596 00:44:08.239 --> 00:44:12.599 It reminds us that as we chart this new territory, the technology might be 597 00:44:12.639 --> 00:44:15.280 ready, but it's the human factors right our values, biases, and our 598 00:44:15.280 --> 00:44:21.000 willingness to embrace change that will determine the success of a virtual workforce. So 599 00:44:21.039 --> 00:44:23.800 this conversation with Frederick Thomason offers not just a glimpse into the operations of an 600 00:44:23.800 --> 00:44:28.559 innovative company, but also into the evolving dynamics of work itself. So as 601 00:44:28.559 --> 00:44:30.800 we wrap today's episode, let's take with us not only the story of Supersites 602 00:44:30.800 --> 00:44:35.159 founding and growth, but a reflection of our own adaptability and openness to the 603 00:44:35.199 --> 00:44:37.840 future of work. After all, in an increasingly connected world, our greatest 604 00:44:37.840 --> 00:44:42.840 resource is not just the technology that we create, but the global community that 605 00:44:42.840 --> 00:44:45.880 we can foster. So thanks for tuning in to this episode of this anthro 606 00:44:45.000 --> 00:44:49.199 Life, and remember the future is now and it's up to us to build 607 00:44:49.199 --> 00:44:51.719 it. I'm madam, weain well and until next time, keep thinking, 608 00:44:51.840 --> 00:44:53.519 keep questioning. It is always, stay curious. Goodbye for now,