You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders, and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with Kristin Dilly. My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page. With my partner in crime, Bill Thomas, we start with part two of our recent conversation with a live audience at the Yorktown Library in Yorktown, Virginia on Monday, May thirteenth. As always, thanks for listening. Now here's part two. All righty, everyone, welcome to you our second live podcast event with a mindover Murder podcast. Did anyone come to our first event back in April? Excellence? And I'm gonna ask my other question, how many of you have listened to or are a fan of the mind Over Murder podcast. Excellent, wonderful. I'm thrilled to have you all join us today at the Yorktown Library here in Yorktown, Virginia. Tonight I have the privilege of welcoming back Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilly, the hosts of the mind Over Murder podcast. They have also brought along a special guest tonight. This is Blaine Pardo and it sounds like you know him, but in case you don't, he is the co author of a special kind of evil, the Colonial Parkway serial killings. As a reminder, we will have a question answer session in the second half of this program, so please hold your questions until then, and without further ado, I'm going to go ahead and hand this event off to our intrepid podcast hosts, Bill and Kristen. All right, thank you all very much. Oh, thank you, thank you. Let's go ahead and kick this off with our standard greeting, Welcome to mind Over Murder. I'm Kristin Dilling and not Bill Thomas, and we're joined here by Blaine Pardo, author of a special kind of evil, and this is our second live event at the Yorktown Library. Thank you, everybody for joining us. Give yourselves a round of applause. We have spent time on the podcast as well as at our first live show discussing Brian Pattinger and Lauriann Powell, but it is always worth mentioning them again their murders. Essentially, our book ended around the Edwards no Blame murders which we know Wilmer is responsible for. He's been linked to via D and I and the call Hilly disappearances, which we have been told he is ninety nine percent probably responsible for. I think that the correct thing for law enforcement to do now is go ahead and crack open those Gold case files and take a second look at Brian and Ann because they fit very neatly around Robin and David's murder in nineteen eighty seven and Keith and Sandra's disappearance in nineteen eighty eight. I think the best thing that law enforcement can do for their families right now is to take a second look at this and figure out do they slot somehow in with the rest of the cases that we know Wilmer is responsible for. I think these cases have suffered either rightly or wrongly, Okay, from a perception by law enforcement that they know who did it, they just can't prove it. That's been the thinking on a lot of cases, and that's how cases end up being cold, is they're like, yeah, we know who did this, but we can't prove it, so we're not going to spend time investigating it as So I agree with you, this is the time to crack that open one more time and if nothing else, rule Wilmer out exactly. If it's possible to do it, then let's do it. It's worth noting, by the way, now we know for a fact that Wilmer isn't just attacking couples, right. We know he killed Teresa Howell, a single woman. I think that Lori and Powell and Brian Pattinger are not really outside Wilmer's sweet spot. They also are found dumped in area rivers, they've been stabbed. This definitely needs another close look, and I agree with both Blaine and kristin that if anything, these two individuals were murdered separately have gotten a short shrift, and I think it's time for law enforcement to really revisit these cases and another case that has definitely gotten a short shrift, and we actually are having a hard time finding information about this young woman's murder is that of Belinda and Ashbourne. And really the only things that we know about Belinda is that she was thirty three years old and she was found just over the North Carolina state line in Kartak County. She was stabbed to death and dumped in the water, which does certainly seem to with this sort of emo that we seem to be establishing for Wilmer now again. And I think Blaine, your idea is a great one. If you cannot link it to him, let's at least rule him out and see what we can do to get some answers for the Ashburn family, because there is very little that we've been able to find in our research and about Belinda Ann's murder. And no victim deserves to be lost to time, and every victim deserves to have the name of their killer known and caught in just as suspense as possible. Bill's hit on something which I've started work on. I did a book called Tantamount with my daughter, which was on the Freeway Phantom serial Killer in Washington, DC in the seventies, and the FBI utilized what's called a geographic profile, so you look at where the victims lived. You look at the major road systems, you look at where their bodies were found, where were they last seen. There's a mathematical formula and you start drawing circles on a map around those locations, and based on where those circles all intersect, they usually intersect the most. It gives you a little boundaried area that you look at and go, Okay, the person that was responsible for these crimes has a connection to that spot. In the case of the freeway fandom, it turned out it was seeing Elizabeth's mental hospital up in Washington, DC. BINGO. That's the epicenter of this. So I've started I broke out the textbook. It's a super expensive book too, the guy who invented geographic profiling. I've been going through and actually starting to plug these things in. And the Teresa Howell thing changed the dynamic because it skews the range that this person operated in, and that range doesn't just go necessarily south, it can go north now, so things change dramatically now that we know Wilmer's there. So I've been plotting on my map these circles and having to go back and do algebra for all you people out there, so you never use it me too, You're wrong, I'm using it. But it's really helping me pull together a geographic model for this once we get that done, Not that ours is going to be anywhere near the quality of the fbis, but it's going to give us a thing where we could say, Okay, this is the range that this guy operated in, and this is a probable epicenter for that. That's going to be helpful to evaluate cases like this, to go as it in that circle or not, and it may be yeah, he did do this, and now the circle changes slightly and alters the map before we get to this next case. I actually for anybody who's looking for a really good series of true crime cases to sink your teeth into, I would urge you to go take a look at Chesapeake Police Department's cold case homicide database. It is online, it is public information. There is a massive array of unsolved homicides in Chesapeake, Virginia. The earliest that I could find was nineteen sixty six, and there are a ton of them. I went down a little bit of a rabbit hole the other day and I had to haul myself back up with both hands because I don't have time to do this kind of research for what would probably be a whole separate podcast, honestly, and a bit a goot time for that. If you look at the Chesapeake Police Departments cold case database, you will see a wide array of homicides. Like I said, some of those homicides are attributable to a guy I just learned about a couple of days ago, Elton Manny Jackson, who was a serial killer hunting gay men in and around the Tidewater area from eighty seven to ninety six. I had no idea about that, but that's on me. He was killing largely by strangulation, and so there are a lot of strangulation murders in Chesapeake during that time period. But that is not the only series of unsolved homicides in Chesapeake. There is a string of women who were killed in the late nineteen eighties, all of whom are listed in Chesapeake's cold case homicide database, and we would urge law enforcement to look at all of those cases a second, third, fourth time to see if there's any possible connection to Wilmer. The one that I flagged that I thought might be most likely to be linked to Wilmar, and again we have to see and I think playing your geographic profiling sounds like it would be of pretty good use. Here is the case of Donna Canaday, who was twenty two years old. She was found a shot and killed in a ditch near the Chesapeake Regional Airport in October eighteenth of nineteen eighty nine, which is right around the same time that the Edwards, Nobbling, cal Haley, and Howell murders and disappearances were happening. The front and back doors of her rental house were standing open. Person keys were missing, but her shoes were by the front door. There was money and plane sight, so it did not seem to be that robbery was a motive. She was not sexually assaulted, there were no signs of struggles. It doesn't seem like she was taken out of her house, but for some reason or another, she ended up dead in a ditch outside of the Regional Airport. Law enforcement has had no leads available, which is why they put her information out onto the cold case database. So if you're looking for an interesting way to spend some time and you want to try to crunch those homicide numbers, do check out all of these missing person's cases and unsolved homicides in Chesapeae, there are a ton of them. There may be more I think that could be potentially linked to Wilmer, but Donna Cannada's was the one that sort of sent up a red flag for me. But again, this is coming from someone who is not an investigator. I am an overworked public educator. So I'm just picking and choosing what seems most likely to me based on the little bit of free time that I have. Any thoughts on that, it's your birthday, I think you should take the night off. Oh it's it's going to say, it's a little late for that. Okay, I thank you for the thought there, but I really appreciate you. We want to get to Colonial Parkway murders incident for Anna Maria Phelps and Daniel Lower. Definitely, we want to discuss why this one might potentially be Wilmer, even though it seems at first like maybe it doesn't quite fit. Daniel and Anna Maria. As we know, we're driving from Amelia County to Virginia Beach. They were going to move in with Anna Maria's boyfriend who is Daniel's brother to help pay the expenses because money was a little bit tight. Blaine, you alluded to this earlier, that Daniel's car was found at the New Kent County rest area, headed west, which is the opposite of where they should have been going. Their bodies weren't found until six weeks later, but they were found on the property of a private hunt club in New Kent County. Bill, we've talked about this a number of times. Why do we think Wilmer might be linked to this one? And then, Blaine, I want your thoughts as well. No, let's slip this around. I want to have Blaine gore. Okay, all right, Blaine again, we're dealing with a couple. We're dealing with a staged automobile club. I've been out in those woods. I have a great story that goes with that the first time, but tell us the story no small town law enforcement. I went to New count Kent County Sheriff's department and said, hey, I want to talk about the Colonial Parkway murders. And I got deputy who was now the sheriff but had been a deputy at that time, and he said, I can't talk to you until I talked to the former sheriff, and I was like, why do you need his permission? You're the sheriff, and he was like, no, it doesn't work that way. And he asked me flat ice, are you going out, you know, to the crime scene. I said yeah, I was actually going to go out there and go look, and he goes, that's private property and I was just going to look. I'm not digging holes or anything. I left and when I got to the pull off for there, there was a cop car waiting for me there and the cop was literally just standing there with his arms crossed, leading against his driver's side door, and I was like, wow. He called ahead, and that wasn't the uber I wanted. So I continued on by and came back on another day unannounced. But it's a creepy area. All these law enforcement agencies have something to hide, and in this case, this is less than a mile from that rest area. They conducted a search with helicopters and on the ground didn't find these bodies. They were found by hunters, okay, And it's a stain on that police department, and they're still covering things up. They don't want to look bad, and that's part of the problem. I think we faced with all these books in my opinion, based on the staging of the vehicle, et cetera. And we now know this greater range of operation for Wilmer. Okay, he was willing to get in his car to drive distances to kill people. That being the case, Suddenly this looks more and more in play for Wilmer in my opinion. Also, Wilmer makes his way back and forth between Lancaster County, where he's from, and the tidewater area where he's often working with his boat, the Denny Wade crabbing fishing, et cetera. So he's back and forth, and Interstate sixty four is certainly one of the ways you can go back and forth from his home turf of Lancaster County down to the tidewater area, So that is a well worn path for him. I think I agree. So this next case, someone actually sent to us and said, do you think that Wilmer could be potentially involved in this? And because this is a case that took place in Asheville, North Carolina, Originally my first thought was probably not. But then we saw something very interesting that I'm very much looking forward to showing you all. This is the case of Amber Lungren. Amber was twenty years old. She was last seen at a place called Barcode in Ashville, North Carolina, in nineteen ninety seven. She was found several hours or late after she left in a ditch, stabbed to death, with defensive wounds on her hands and arms. Very similar to and very similar to Teresa hu Similar to Tresa Risa how very similar. There are suspect and truck sketches that were released later, which is why the person who sent this case to us put it on our radar. And I'm going to show you those sketches here in just one second. The suspect and truck sketches are very similar to Wilmer and his truck, and so I'm going to show you the give you the money shot here in a second. But Amber was last seen outside of a bar like Teresa Howell, and her body was dumped just like Teresa's. There was a different cause of death, it is still pretty similar. This is the This is the sixty four thousand dollars shot right here. That is the suspect sketch of the man who was seen with Amber Lungren on that particular evening. If you look at these sketches up there that I circled, or if you look at the pictures out there that I circled, those are the photos that we have of Ellen Wade Wilmer Senior during that time period. That's nineteen ninety four and that's nineteen ninety nine. So if you extrapolate from nineteen ninety seven, look at those photos, look at that suspect sketch, look at that truck right there in the suspect sketch, and look at the truck right there, and I think you're going to see some similarities, at least things that I think we should be looking at a little bit more closely. And what is time Wilmer has transitioned over from being a waterman to primarily being a tree guy. He cuts and trims trees and brush. There's an interesting thing that may or may not be a coincidence. I don't think it is, which is there were major storms in the Ashville area, and sometimes when a bunch of trees are downed or there's storm damage, people will come in from adjoining states because there's a lot of work in a very short period of time, and you can make good money. Wilmer's out of the waterman business, and he's in the tree trimming business by this point, and it's not that far to get down to Ashville. When I saw the sketch of the truck and the individual and the m a, it reminded me so much of Teresa Howell. I think this is worth another look. So we've reached out to the investigators, and I know this is something that they're taking a look at. I'm not saying we're going to pick out every unst murder on the East Coast and claim that it was Wilmer, like he's some sort of boogeyman, but this one really stuck out because if Wilmer, for example, is using his truck for woodworking, he's going to take off the rig that he used for grabbing an oystering, which kind of looked like a tow truck brig to me almost, but that actually would come off, and he could also put toolboxes along the edges there. And you can see in the sketch just how much this looks like he's very distinctive nineteen sixty six Dodge truck, Blaine. Anything. Everything is fair game at this point. I think if you're in a three state area surrounding Virginia. Right now, you should be taking a look at your cases and saying, do any of these fit the mos of the known individuals he's killed, And we know he's killed three people for sure, potentially obviously five at this point you have to look at those and evaluate, and so by FBI standards, Wilmer is confirmed as a serial killer, as Blaine saying, if you're in the adjoining states of Virginia, you should be taking a look at this guy in any of your unsolved cases. The last case that we want to take a look at very quickly is highlighting that of Peggy Lammers. She was sixty one years old and she was found dead in her vacation home in Deltaville, Virginia, on July eleventh of twenty seventeen, which is before Wilmer died. Cause of death WHI was blown forced trauma. We don't know the particulars of what happened to her. Was she killed in a break in, maybe a TV was removed. Drawers in the bedroom were open with contents stumped out on the bed. There was a muddy bootprint on the door, but the door itself wasn't actually broken like there was no evidence that it was kicked in, so was the scene staged? We don't know. It is certainly something I think that bears looking at again, like you were saying, Blaine, if you've got unsolved cases at this point, pull them out, run it through and just see is there anything available that would or connected to Wilmer potentially or disprove it entirely. And we need to see other I think the FBI I want to say they screwed the pooch again, don't They've only showed us the one truck, and I'm guarantee you he had access to more vehicles, et cetera. And I want to see all of the vehicles because that could change the nature of this too. Absolutely. So up on the screen is the seeking Information poster that the FBI did create for Peggy Lammers. This is still an open case. We will post all of this information on our social media pages, and we will start spending a little bit more time, like full episodes, on a lot of these so that we can get in more detail that we know you guys are looking for, Which brings us to what do we still want to know a lot? Obviously? Is he connected to some of these all of these are none of these, and we're perfectly open to the possibility that Wilmer is responsible for none of the ones other than what we know he's been implicated in. I don't think that's the case. I'm willing to take that bet. I'm telling you Wilmer is definitely good for more than three homicides outmark my words on that. I'm not saying he's good for all these different individuals, but he's definitely good for more than three. We want to know did he act alone? This is something that was brought up a couple of times, both on our Facebook page. It was brought up at our last live event. So did Wilmer act alone? If he was not acting alone, who was he acting with? How did he choose his victims? How did he approach his victims? Did he use the cop ruse to approach his victims to the exclusion of all others or did he have multiple ways of approaching his victims? What locations was he frequenting? Were friends and family alarmed by any specific types of behavior? The sixty four thousand dollars question is why was he allowed to go free even after he passed a polygraph? If he was a prime suspect in the Call Helly case. I'll add something here. I'm not going to go too far out on a skinny branch here. The case agents who were working the Colonial Parkway murders and specifically the Call Haley disappearance were convinced that Wilmer was the right guy. So hear me when I say that somebody above the case level moved Wilmer into the shall we say, less likely category back in nineteen eighty eight. And Wilmer, to be clear here, was not a dumb guy. He killed at least three people. What did he do after he skated on the polygraph exam? He just shifted gears. He stopped. I believe he stopped hunting the Colonial Parkway because that's federal jurisdiction, that's a national park, that's FBI territory. He's just had a very close call with the FBI. What does he do? In my opinion, he stopped hunting on the Colonial Parkway and he just shifts over and starts hunting elsewhere. So a year after he escapes a very close call, I would argue with the polygraph, he then turns around and kills Teresa Howell. So he continued to kill right under the noses of law enforcement. I don't think it's a stretch to say that if the FBI had done its job in nineteen eighty eight, Teresa Howell would still be alive and not be a murder victim in nineteen eighty nine. I agreed, agreed, And then, of course, our biggest question is why can't exceptions be made in the policy that keeps Wilmer's DNA from being put in codis? That is what we really want to know at this point. Why can't we close that loophole and put his DNA into codis The civil rights of a serial killer should not trump the rights of the victims' families to know what has happened. Yeah, I one hundred percent agree, especially a dead serial tailor. Now, if he was alive, it's a different story altogether. He is, he is rotting. Good riddance. Why is a dead man being given all this consideration? So we have a ton of questions still, and we hope that law enforcement is willing to step forward and do the job that we are continually tasking them with every time that we open our mouths in front of a podcast Mike, and that goes over. So, well, I'm waiting for the day that the FBI calls me and is that you're on one of our watch We already know you're on the watch list. Bill. Okay, they've threatened me with obstruction of justice charges, let's just put it that way. I'm still here. Yeah, you've bet you asked too many questions in your sister's murder investigation, and now we're gonna we're going to start threatening you. It wasn't a great conversation. Hey here, you are right, we're here. We're here being loud mouse on a Monday night, right on your birthday. Yeah, thanks, thanks for that. So before we get to our we just want to give you a couple of updates on what we are doing. We are actually going to be speaking at Crime Con. We have not announced this to the general public yet, so you guys are the first to hear it. But we have been asked to headline at Crime Con and we will be speaking on Friday May thirty first, at one twenty pm about developments in the Colonial Parkway murders with podcaster and CSI Cheryl McCollum. Oh, very good. We're talking about Colonial Parkway murders. Yeah, why not. Yeah, it's not like you know anything on the topic or anything like that. But if you are planning on going to crime Con, please do join us on Friday. I don't know if this is something that is going to be released to the general public afterward. A lot of crime con sessions are so we will have to see about that. But we are going to be speaking. Unfortunately, we're speaking at the same time John Douglas is, so I don't know that we're going out much of an audience. We're up against legendary FBI profiler John Douglas. Yes, it's I don't think. I don't think we're going to have a full The book is in one of the small rooms over to the side. Yeah, seven thousand people are going to go see John Douglass and we're going to have maybe ten people in our room. They couldn't get com Yes, this ballroom has filled out to fire capacity. You go hang out with the Colonial Parkway people. But we are going to be at crime Con and we are continually working to try to put these cases to the forefront. We would like to continue to be our loud mouseselves and keep these cases in the spotlight, because we are convinced that this is really the only way to make sure that the FBI continues to do the job that they are supposed to do in the VSP to do the job that they're supposed to do. The ways that you can help us keep ourselves moving forward is to keep talking about these cases. Please share our posts, reach out to your congress people about this case and say, hey, we've heard there's some really interesting recent developments in the Colonial Parkway murders, but I know that they're not having a ton of success getting all of that evidence tested. Is there anything you can do about that? Is there anything you can do about the codeas loophole? Follow us on social media please if you aren't already subscribe to the podcast, like us, rate us review, I share us with your friends. We do have plenty of march that you can buy from to public and we are actually demoing tonight some brand new march that we are making in conjunction with a local small business called the Glittered Squirrel. And you'll see over at our table there are some beautiful decorative glassware items that are all true crime theme. Eventually, there are going to be some items that are mind Over Murder themed entirely. All of the information to find that decorative glassware is at the QR code that you'll see up at our table. Go to the Glittered Squirrel and look at the true crit and collection and that features Mindover Murder merchandise. We are still looking to get a little bit of help to frame our costs for printing equipment, travel costs for this guy who makes how long is it a nine hour drive from Connecticut? It's five hundred mile drive from Connecticut down here, and we'd like to help defray his costs for doing that. So if you can donate torco Fundme, we really do appreciate it. We want to end by encouraging you not only to find us on social media, but to remember the reason why we are here in the very first place. We are here to advocate for these victims. So a good way to end our portion of the evening and to open it up to the Q and A, is to remind you of what we currently do not have. As of twenty twenty four, Robin Edwards, had she lived, would be fifty one years old. Anna Maria Phelps would be fifty three. Sandy Haley would be fifty four, Laria and Powell would be fifty four, Keith Call would be fifty six, Daniel Lower would be fifty six as well, and David Nobling would be fifty seven. Becky Dawski would be fifty nine, Brian Pattinger would be sixty one, Terry Howell would be sixty four, and Kathy Thomas would be sixty five years old. All of these people deserved a longer, healthier life than they were given. The best thing that we can do for them is to give them the only kind of justice that we can get for them now, and that is to know the name of their killer. And you will help us very much by showing up to our live events and by supporting us and helping us continue to do this work. So thank you very much for showing up and showing your support. Blaine. Do you have any final words that you'd like to get out there? I do want to make sure that you can tell people where to find your book as well, so can you tell us about that. For the two people who haven't read it, you can get here at the library. Obviously, it's on Amazon dot com. I'm looking forward to writing the last chapters of this where we can close these cases out and say they were all solved. Yeah. I like the sound of that. Absolutely, you're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll be right back after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at mindover Murder. Is it time for questions? It is time for a question. So we will take audience questions at the mic for anyone who has them. There we go, Yeah, come on up, please don't be shy. We will do our best to answer. Oh, come on, somebody's got to be the ice breaker. Yeah, come on, there we go go. All right, you have the least far to go. All right, I was gonna say, we're Beth. You're gonna have to hang out there and make sure that everybody's my favorite part. So there are people who are part of this man's family still alive. Yes, Do you believe there's anyone alive who actually knows the answers you're seeking? Yes? Absolutely. I don't necessarily know that family members because this hit them hard too. I do understand that. But yes, I believe there are a number of people that know and can help us unlock the mystery of the Colonial Parkway murders. I tend to agree. I think either someone in his family knows something that they didn't even realize, or maybe they did fully realize. You know, he was living with his brother when the FBI tossed his place. There had to have been some discussions that were had if they didn't know, you know. But to Bill's point, there's other people out there that we may not even have their names yet. And maybe we're buddies on this who are drinking pals who he may have confessed something to. We just don't What we don't know is what we don't know. Other questions or comments, She's got notes, We're ready, we are ready. Well. As I was sitting here listening, it dawned on me that you did the Donald Hall, Mike Margaret, and I am under the impression that Timothy Hall, Timothy sid Hall Wilmer lived in Richmond, and I believe his brother did as well, or at least frequented that area, which kind of seems like the rest area wouldn't be off kilter either as he was traveling back. So do you think he might have anything to do with him? I don't know. Timothy Wilmer, the youngest brother, has an extensive criminal background. Wade, I think Wade was either lived there or was visiting frequently when his brother went to me. Yeah, there. I want to be careful because there can be some confusion. Usually when we're talking about the father, we usually say Allen or Senior, because there isn't Alan Wade Wilmer Junior, who was eight years old at the time of the Colonial Parkway murder. So he's a little kid, but he's a grown man now, so I just want to be careful. He usually goes by Wade, and the father usually goes by Allen. So you're talking about Alan Wade Wiliamer Senior, senor, and Timothy. Yeah. I don't think you can rule Timothy out Timmy at this point, given the fact that he was very close with the middle brother Alan, and he did live in Richmond. We also have unconfirmed reports, and this is a little hard to pin down when even his own family doesn't know where he lived. We also have reports that he lived in Newport News, so he's down this way. I think he's definitely worth another look. I'd like to figure out a lot more about this guy, including how did he die. Also, what are your thoughts on Jennifer Pandosh. We've done some coverage on the Pandos case and talk to Steven, her brother, who's an amazing guy. And there's a very good HBO television series on the Pandos disappearance. That's a strange one, it really is. I don't know how you how either of you feel about it. I still think the father's involved personally, that was my takeaway with it. But I you know, I also know that you get manipulated by what on TV. Oh sure, because they always show you what they always I'm at it with an angle and that's where they're going to steer you. So it's hard to say no. I agree. I think that's one of those things that I would definitely have to go back and rewatch this series with an eye toward what do we think can we rule someone and can we rule someone out? But I remember that when I watched it, I originally was like, I think the dad has something to do with this still, but you are right. It is pastime to hear an update on the Jennifer Pannys case. Fat is I live up in Fredericksburg. I used to live in Culpepper and immediately as soon as this happened on January eighth, I started getting calls ah that it was Wilmer who was on the Route twenty nine murders. Oh yeah, let's not forget the Shenandoah killings. We can go after those two. People tend to start casting the net pretty wide, and there's a lot of reasons you don't go for that, you know, But I'm not ruling them out. I'm just going I don't know. People tend to want to throw things into the bucket. It takes a lot to go. I'm going to take some restraight and not put that name in the bucket. Yet. That's the hard part. That's all my notes. Thank you other people with notes, detailed questions, multipart questions. Yeah, after reading the book, I live in Yorktown, so this has been part of my history, part of growing up here, part of remembering. But after reading the book, I was appalled at the all the law enforcement that it was a cluster. It was a cluster. Yeah, I wonder if there's some is there no recourse like through the Attorney general or something that the improprieties could be looked at. Why they're not being forthcoming with evidence or I get that that they have to protect evidence. If they're working on a case, but that case is over. I Jason moyerra is built up house three doors down from me. You know, I haven't seen he hasn't lived in that for a year, but he does come out there. I have a letter writing campaign prepared for our Attorney General on this, and you got to bear in mind when you look at it from their perspective. Let's say they run the DNA against every open case and they find out ge Wilmer's connected to all of these cases. There's probably going to be people who were arrested and put in jail who may be dead as a result of this. There's a whole bunch of potential implications that come with a price tag because those families will rightfully sue, and that could be a real problem. And I think there's a hesitancy to avoid the risk, the risk being the cost of such action, and so there's a natural thing of let's put him to the absolute bear bones minimum that we can and tell everybody else we think he did that on these others. I think there's a limitation on that. I don't have any proof. I'm speculating, but you got to bear in mind. If they nail Wilmer on something where somebody else has already gone to jail. Those families are gonna sue, and they're gonna sue big time, and they're gonna win. Yeah, and it really creates a whole problem. And now your confidence gets blown in the Virginia State Police and the other law enforcement involved. As you saw in Chesapeake. I wouldn't live over there, Jesus. They have a database of cold cases. Yeah. Yeah. One thing that makes me really uncomfortable is the idea that institutional interests supersede investigative interests. This makes me really uncomfortable because this cannot be about reputation management for the Federal bureaun Investigation and the Virginia State Police. They just cannot. Some people in law enforcement who are now retired and a bit more free to speak, have said to me, Bill, the FBI is your biggest problem in terms of the roadblock, shall we say, But the Virginia State Police is a close second, because, as Blaine says, and he's highlighting something that's really important, there are people that are currently incarcerated that may be in prison for crimes that were committed by the Wilmers. That's not a good situation. And if one of these law enforcement people said to me, Bill, the reason they don't want to put Wilmer's DNA into the CODAS system is because if they put Wilmer's DNA into the CODA system, it will light up like an e fing Christmas tree, because they believe there are so many unsolved rapes and murders that will tie back in directly to Wilmer. Really frightening. But the thing is, I think we should load his DNA into CODIS and let the chips fall where they may. And if mistakes have been made, what a shock We're at thirty seven years here. This case was about as cold as a cold case could get. Yeah, that was the thing that bothered me. I think the most about January eighth was they should have just come right out and gotten in front of this and said, Yep, Wilmer was on our radar. We polygraphed him, and we took him off the list as a result of that, and it was a mistake. If they had done that, the bomb is diffused. There's nowhere for the media to go yep. The law enforcement of the handful and I'm talking Joe Wolfingers won and that's it that I know of from the FBI and also retired FBI. He may have come out and just said, Yep, that's what happened. It's not going to ruin their reputations, it's not going to harm them. They did what was appropriate for that time period. And so come out and get in front of that and say, yep, we had this guy on the radar. Where do you think they got the pictures of his truck? That was our FBI photographs. Those are the things the DMV had, and gee, all they had to do was read your book. It was all right there. That was a big moment. I gotta tell you what I saw that truck. I was like, what the hell? It shouldn't take, as I said earlier, it shouldn't take us calling out law enforcement on deliberately deceptive a partially deceptive presentation, and even things like the absurdity of suddenly calling the Robin Edwards David Knobling murder the isle of white murders. I'm sorry, I've been involved in this case for thirty seven years. We didn't make up the name the Colonial Parkway murders. The Colonial Parkway murders name I think was made up, probably by the Daily Press or one of the other area newspapers. One of our reporters is right here. It was a moniker, but it's the name that everybody knows the case by. If anything, the identification of Wilmer as the killer of Robin Edwards and David K. Noblin confirms that the Colonial Parkway murders are real and that this guy's responsible for at least some of them. For them to come out and suddenly create literally create a name out of nothing. Now we're calling it the Isle of White Murders. And you notice they bent over backwards not to refer to these murders as the Colonial Parkway murders. Like it or not, that's the name that the public we all know as the murders. So what we're going to have to watch for, mark my words. I believe there will be other significant developments in this case. Let's see whether law enforcement can get it together to call the case by its proper name, because the families are going to continue calling them the Colonial Parkway murders. Whether law enforcement wants to make stuff up or not, I don't care. I think that was done very deliberately, and it was because let's remember when we had the stereo rapists ecech are identified. When we had that happen, it was a national thing. Everybody was on top of that. If you say it was the Colonial Parkway murders and that was part of it, it suddenly becomes a very national story. This is a big serial killing case, which they wanted to avoid. They wanted to avoid that. So what they did is they said, oh, it's a pair of murders and Isle of Wight, and that presentation was extremely confusing. It was even confusing to the news media. Reporters said to me afterward, if they had said that this was an update on the Colonial Parkway murders, there would have been a ton of additional press there, including national press. This is a national case, but they went out of their way not to call it that. And we got a hold of the advance release that tells reporters we're going to have a significant story here. It was so bizarrely written. Kristin actually called me that morning and said, is this is this our press conference? Our press conference and in this I'm telling you this was done deliberately and it pains me to point this out, but this is not acceptable. We need law enforcement to be more direct and more transparent about what it is that they're telling us about, using misleading names, and refusing to answer basic questions like when did this suspect first move on to your radar? That's unacceptable. You've been keeping this gentleman was going to say, you got on your shopbox. I'm curious thinking about Sandy and Keith at Christopher yourboard College, the party across the street, the few ways that were for her to get home in the eighties. I want to say it's maybe six or seven miles that probably looked like we took seventeen north. When you hit that York County line on the right hand side going north, it was literally two miles of NonStop junk yards, junk yards, some which are still there today. And it haunts me that short distance and where she was going. I don't think anybody believed that they ended up on the parkway. Did anybody ever search those junk yards that are still there today? I'm just curious. Do you know, I have no idea. It's never been mentioned to me. Yeah, thank you, that's a good question. Yeah, no, I know exactly what you're talking about. Joyce call canonat Keith's older sister who was our special guest last time, is here. I don't know if you want to add anything. You're thinking no, she said, I've never heard of anyone saying such a thing. If they did, they never told the family about it. Very interesting. I'm gonna make a note on that. Thanks Choyce. Okay, what else? So a few months ago was reported that police were diving in one of the waterways off the Parkway. I know that. They said they didn't turn up anything. Is that precipitated because of the new developments in the case, or is that more wanting to get in there before they start construction the Parkway? And I don't want to be the callous one, but when I heard that, I was like good. And then I was like, what do they think they're going to find? And I called a friend of mine who knows something about tidal flow, he's an oceanographer. I was like, here, it is the York River area. What would they fight because you couldn't find anything. He goes, The tidal force is hitting that, he goes. I believe the river was dredged at one point. It affects all of that. You're just it's not You're going to dive down and find something that you could identify. And my initial thought was they were probably looking for Keith and Cassandra. If you think about that's the missing evidence of that crime. Every other crime. We have bodies, we have a vehicle, we have clothing, your sister's case, they have, the interior of the car has been preserved. Keith and Cassandra are the only physical evidence that we don't have any of. So my thought was they're gonna they're out looking for them. But after all this time, With deference to you, Joyce, I don't want to sound callous, but it's I just don't think they can find anything. And to me it felt very p r ish. Look, we're out doing stuff, we're actively investigating. You're so cynical, I am, but that's how it felt to me, unless there was something else. Maybe they talked to a friend of the Wilmer family and they said, oh, he had incriminating evidence in a metal box and he threw it out when he was fishing, and I saw him do it, and it's that spot. But even then, how would you find that. I have an underwater metal detector. You're not going to find it. It's just to me. I just couldn't figure out why they did that and why make the announcement if only to tell the you folks, look, we're working the case. That's my day. They have been out twice so far that we've seen, I guess a fall up question, and I assume I would hope they've would have done it in the past. But can you answer that if they did search the water. Yeah, we've seen reports and we know people that were there on the parkway who saw divers, and so they have searched various places, usually much closer to the time of the event, not thirty six years later. They did find another body when they were looking for keith A Cassandra. They found a guy who had jumped ship and committed suicide. So they found a body in the river, but they didn't find their body. Yeah, thank you, good question. Hey, good evening. Hey Bill. Hey, So my question is more about the demographics of the group. Does the people in the room today reflect your followers? Looks like it's about eighty five percent women here. Is that typical of these kinds of groups. Definitely it is. Yeah, yeah, true podcasts. It's about the audience is about two thirds women, which is interesting. I went to Crime God the first time you and I were there, and it was like we were a distinct minority walking through the hall. Yeah, we're the only guys here. It is interesting though. Last year we started seeing a lot more men who I guess were being dragged along rather beleagueredly by their wives and girlfriends. So there have been more of them, yes, but it is largely Yeah, idea for a T shirt. My wife dragged me here pretty much. Yeah, hey, wait, we should do that one the other I'm writing it down with stuff. There's a young lady that can tell us more. Not that young. I have a question. I commercial fish, and I know what the reporting's like. Is it horrible from a fisher person's perspective? Actually, all along, all the people in the fishing community always thought that it probably was a waterman. Because of that. The only thing that they brought up was like his dead rise. Those cannot go in very shalow water. So if he had the dead rise, he wouldn't have been able to get to the shore on the Colonial Parkway. He would have had to have a smaller boat as well. Help us out here, what does that mean in for civilians? The dead rise is the Denny Way. That's the type of workboat that he was working out of. Those cannot go in very shallow water. What do you think that the draw is on something like that? Total guess. Your guess is better than ours. I would say that they probably couldn't go and shale or water than six feet deep. Like when we would go to our crab pots that were in shallow or water, we would take a Carolina skiff, which is a flat bottom boat that could go. But the thing that really concerns me is I know, like in my commercial fishing experience has been like in the last ten years, and I know the reporting is so specific that we have to report to the VMRC where we have to say what kind of catch, exactly where we were out of who he sold it to, exactly where in the river. Now, I know that wasn't as detailed back at those days, But like you were saying about the different areas he worked, fishermen follow certain buyers, like you'll only have two or three oyster buyers in the area, and they will go where those trucks are at. So has anybody looked at the buyers and if they have records of who Wilmer was selling to We've heard some of this. Some people have told us that Allen would go to certain places to sell his catch and that kind of thing. And by the way, it's worth noting because you probably means something to you. The Wilmers Keith the oldest brother, and Alan the middle brother, and our serial killer. I don't know about Timmy. They worked as watermen for many years. They've also been busted a number of times for all sorts of illegal things involving illegal catch or such a season. That's the vmr C this in chreager that they should have documentation of all those places he was stopped at. So maybe by linking some of those charges and everything to certain areas where there were killings, that might be something that where you could get them to open up those cases a little more and take another look at them. That's a really interesting No, thank you, and we really appreciate it. And I don't know that that we've talked to you're not a water woman or a waterman. Do we call you a water woman? Everybody still says watermen. But thank you helpful, yeah, thank you. We've had to go up the Timbernet Creek to follow where because they changed to oyster grounds all the time where you're allowed to oyster, and that's another thing to look at. There's certain areas that are only opened each year. Okay, so this is really helpful. And I think something else we've heard about Wilmer specifically is that he would fish and oyster illegally and go to places that were And this will make more sense, I think to you than it did to me. Places that are not marked or right, those sorts of things. And apparently he was infamous for this kind of on the edge marginal kind of fishing and oystering. Yes. And the other thing too is as a crabber, a lot of times you'll take out fishing nets gill nets and set those overnight and go empty your nets and everything in the morning and then take what you've caught as far as bait fish and go crabbing. So that would be another reason why he'd be out there, like in the middle of the night on his boat. But you actually solved because somebody floated to me and they said, when they abandoned Keith's car on the parkway, what if Wilmer had his boat waiting there. But I've seen pictures of people waiting in the water waist deep and they are out fifty sixty feet. Yeah, dead rise wouldn't be able to get that, and so you've actually been able to rule that out. I mind that he had parked his boat there, and that's why he abandoned the car there, because then he just got on his boat and left right. Would you mind? We want you to keep going, but we also would love to talk with you afterwards because I think you can school us. I think that may be a punt about this, because we're very interested in learning more. No, keep going. Now. The other thing I was going to say is I live right by a marina where there were a lot of work boats and everything, and if they would tie their boats out to the polls or a lot of them would have these little dinghy boats too. Now that's to look into. If he had one of those, it would have gotten him right up to the shore. Wow. Something there's a workboat where they can keep something like that too. A lot of times they would even have him up on the roof or whatever. Please ling around and talk to us. Yeah all right, yeah, thank you. This is no seriously a fantastic education. Thank you. This is great I think we're headed toward to close here. Do we have any final questions? So many questions? Anybody want to be the last question, the last question of the night? Is there anything we haven't covered that you'd like us to talk about? In the last two minutes of our podcast, no one asked my favorite question. Oh my gosh, I'm always disappointed, and some day it's going to happen. My favorite question from the McCarthy hearings of the nineteen fifties. I'm showing my age here. No one ever asks are you now or have you ever been a member of the Communist Party, And I'm just someone's going to ask me. I have heard that joke from you so many times. I knew it was coming a mile away, but it was new material for these Yes it was, and that's why, and they were kind enough to laugh. The part that I like is no single person mentioned Steve Blackman tonight. Oh, because I hear that so much. That's the only positive thing about Wilmer is I don't hear Blackman's name a lot. Yeah, this is true. This is good. Thank you all so very much for showing up to our second live event here at the Yorktown Library, and thank you very much to everyone at the Yorktown Library for so graciously hosting us, for helping us with our setup, and for being all around awesome. Thank you very much. Can we give them a round of applause? Please? Thank you Beth team, and thank all of you for being here. If you want to chat with us, we are available and we look forward to it and we learn. We want to learn more about being a water woman. Yes, that is going to do it for this episode mind Ever Murder. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next time. Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and Another Dog Productions. Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud. Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with crawl Space Media. You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway Murders on Facebook, and finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at Bill Thomas five six. Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder. An comput