At the post. So don't touch that side us a funny. Don't touch
down side bunny branches. So test my sadun don just t dust us try
n guy spot time type dust or snow days tis very body guys back snap
got time start a start try g dscus type a sky track din start type
stop side to the black starts nail shin up and we are alive and continuing.
We're getting down to the points. Oh whoa, whoa, whoa.
Hold on, there we go, there we go. Okay, little technical
glitch right at the beginning. The o'celly effect is live. That's why you
hear stuff like that. Okay. It is March to twenty sixth, twenty
fifteen. Okay, so you know, look the new intro. I'm happy
with it. I wanted to make sure that Jefferson Morley wasn't a liar when
he said I had a spooky kind of intro. So there you go.
Anyway, tonight we're doing something that I've been wanting to do for a very
long time. Okay, we all know if you've listened to my show that
JFK is one of those areas of interest for me. The assassination the intrigue
that surrounded the situation, exactly what caused it, exactly what happened to our
country as a result of November twenty second, nineteen sixty three. Of course,
that has to do with the adventures of going into the Vietnam War,
et cetera, et cetera, and all of the other divinations that did occur
afterwards. And we can argue about that, and we can discuss it,
and we can say that maybe Kennedy was the last actual president we had.
We could say all those kinds of things. But here's what the problem is.
Not only does the mainstream media and the apologists for the Warrant Commission like
to perpetrate their fictions upon us, but there are those who are more conspiracy
minded who seem to be perpetrating all sorts of wonderful fairy tales on us.
Now, this isn't an attack on any particular person or any particular set of
people. This is an attack on the nonsense, the absolute garbage, which
has been absolutely counterproductive to the work that you know, a fool like myself
spends half of his lifetime sinking money, effort, time, energy, heartache,
aggravation and health. That was just reading Bugliosi's book. And that laugh
right there comes from a return guest, Carmine Sabastano. How are you I'm
doing okay? Uh see, it's not all about the vowels though. Don't
worry, because we also have a couple of other people on with us tonight,
and I'm really happy. This is the first time they've been on.
And that's Trish Fleming and Zach. You know what's funny about Zach is I
actually don't know how to pronounce his last name. I've only ever read it,
I've never said it. And I realized that when I was going to
air. So I'd like it if you guys introduced yourselves. Go ahead and
on mute. Hey, how you doing. There's Trish, Tris Fleming and
yes, where's Zach Ahi, it's Zach, It's Jendro Kedro thank you.
Yeah, yeah, just as it looks well. You know, it's a
surprise, because sometimes you look at somebody's name and it's not you know,
the jay is silent, that he is actually an a you don't know.
You know, they're not a problem, not a problem. They're nice to
hear from you, Chuck, good to be here, absolutely see. This
goes to show you that I don't script a damn thing on this show.
I never do that because it's good. It fresh. Listen, I believe
in the organic conversation. And I know it sounds like I'm in a jovial
mood, but really I am irritated beyond belief and have been dying to do
this show. Okay, well, we're happy to be part of it,
Chuck oh Man. And I'm so glad that I have allies here to do
this with, because otherwise, you know, it's just Chuck screaming about you
know, certain people. Yeah, and the nonsense that they push, and
it's just well, you know, they disagree with Chuck, so therefore no,
no, no, no, they just stop it with reality. Yeah.
Anyway, I'd like you to go ahead and speak your mind about why
it is we're doing this and everything. I know we're starting off a little
slow, but I wanted to lay the groundwork so we make sense of this.
No, that sounds great. I actually would like to start with a
definition of myth for everyone. Perfect. A myth is a traditional or legendary
story concerning an event with or without the terminal basis of fact or natural explanation
can't say it any better than that, and this is the area we're going
to cover, and they can. People are free to disagree. We're not
saying these are definitive. We are saying we've looked at a lot of evidence
and none of these things stand up. So we believe that they are a
waste of our time and our community's time. Now people can pursue them as
much as they like, but until they get some evidence, they don't mean
anything exactly. And I don't know Zach Ortrish, either one of you if
you want to add to what it is that is, it's like the motive
behind why you wanted to be involved in this show speak for yourselves. I'd
like I'd like to divide in the research community to stop. I mean,
you know, there's there's so much left and right going on that at the
end of the day, we're all just spinning our tires. No one's going
to solve this by themselves. We need to work together. There has to
be some sort of mutual understanding and mutual respect amongst the researchers. And it
can't be loan that are against conspiracy theorists anymore. It's more about solid research
versus myth makers. Yep, m h yeah, yeah, I would totally
agree with that. I think that, you know, go ahead, Carmine,
Oh, I'm sorry, Zach No, no, no, I talk
enough you you I'll go after well. I think that it's important. I
have a historian background, and I think it's important. One of the main
things I learned is that when you're first starting research, as you continue down
that path, is that you have to eliminate things that are you know,
stumbling blocks, things that don't add up, because all it's doing is is
preventing you from getting to the truth. And that goes with any topic,
but something that involves so much mystery and intrigue, you have to be especially
careful and try to you know, I don't want to use the word garbage,
but you have to toss out what isn't as useful as the other bits.
You have to or you're going to be sitting there forever spinning your wheels.
See there you go, and I'll tell you something. I'm going to
dedicate my portion of this little show to a very seldom heard name in the
research community, which is doctor Roger Remington. Okay, because this is the
guy who I have had many conversations with over the years who has kept me
in check regarding a lot of this about trying to rely on tangible things as
opposed to the theoretical, as opposed to the fanciful. He's basically a warrant
commission deconstruction is for the most part. Okay, But he's also a historian,
you know, retired professor from Aquinas College. I don't know if you
guys have ever even heard of him? What four books out on the assassination?
Uh? The best, the best known one is probably Biting the Elephant.
Okay, Well, that's why I like your show, Chuck It.
I'll help you find some new stuff. I'll look him up, definitely look
him up. Self published and actually is working on his final book on the
case, so a new, a new volume will come out from him shortly.
And believe it, when this guy says something, he backs it up
not only with documentation, but with actual you know, attempting to and speaking
to and going to the sources as best he can and things like that,
you know, actual research. A man after my own heart. You got
it, you got it, and I mean and the guy doesn't make a
statement without you know, having not one reference for it, but probably four
for each statement. Fancy that facts who knew, facts that are verified and
reverified. A strange world, isn't it. I know, I don't understand
why we even have to discuss this. Oh, but unfortunately it is because
especially in the electronic age. And and see, this went on before the
Internet. Okay. I know you guys might not realize this, but this
kind of stuff was going on long before the Internet. And I don't know
where you want to start exactly. I know that Carmine and I kind of
came up with a bullet point list of places to start with, the like
we picked the worst stuff we could think of. Okay, And but here's
the thing. Just I have an ex discussion with Zach and I've had no
discussion with Trish. I'd like you guys to pick something. I guarantee you
it's on this list. Well, let's see. I mean, you could
start with something. In my mind, I mean, the things like Badgeman
and you know, the umbrella man and what he meant at the scene and
things like that. I mean, where do you go with that in the
long term of it. There's no fact to really support any of that,
And people kind of like to build their stories around this. All of a
sudden, Badgemen went from a shadow to becoming the assassin. And I mean
that would seem to be somewhat mythological. I would think, you know,
based upon the fact there's no evidence of anything to back that up. Please
take the pictures out first. I argue about those so much. Okay,
let's begin there. The first statement I want to make is that primarily the
original mistakes made on this stuff were made in a time when the technology was
not there to verify a lot of things. You would end up with blurs.
You'd end up with reprints of things that created greater shadows. You know,
you'd end up with all sorts of interesting anomalies and photographs. Okay.
And some people seized upon them because they were looking, they were digging,
they were going through piles of you know, needles, looking for the needle,
all right, and I understand that, right. But as we evolved,
Okay, as we went from the sixties to the seventies and so on
and so forth, I lost my taste for this kind of stuff. Because
what happened is every time, you know, you went and did a scientific
analysis to see if it was even physically feasibly possible for half of these things
to exist. Doesn't work. Yep, they're guessing. They're doing their best
guests off of most of the time a copy or at best something they took
from a site that never had an original in the first place. That's like
when you said you have the Fox originals. Those are solid, Those are
from a source that can be authenticated. They mean something, they're evidence.
But when I hear people say, well I have this picture and if there's
fifteen shots, I just want to kill myself, It's like, now,
it doesn't It doesn't prove any of that. You're just going on about nothing
and wasting everyone's time. See. I had that terrible experience on a show
which I'm not going to name here, but on a show with somebody who
was discussing Doorway Man with me. For the listeners who don't know, there
was an associated press photographer there, okay, whose name is Altkins. Therefore
his photographs have been named thereafter the Alkins photographs. In Altkins six, if
memory serves me correctly, there is a portion of the photograph which is position
just above the limousine on the print where the doorway of the school book depository
can be seen. For many years, people argued that Oswald was in the
doorway at the time of the shooting because the limousine is in such a position
that there is no way if Oswald was in that doorway, which seems logical.
If Oswald was in the doorway, he could not have fired to shots
from the sixth floor. That's fine and dandy. The problem is the evidence.
The evidence doesn't work, none of it. None of it, I
mean absolutely none of it. Now, I was on a show and somebody
was presenting me with an internet photograph taken from the John McAdams website. Okay,
I'm not kidding. I'm not kidding. Now there are Let me say
this for our friends on hopefully what will not long be the other side,
and those who use evidence will join us. I think everybody has something to
contribute, but people need to be more honest about the politics. There's a
lot of politics in this that have absolutely nothing to do with the case,
and Professor McAdams is one of the people who spins those politics. Now,
I respect some of his work, but I do not respect the way that
he plays around with people. No, absolutely, and I would say the
same thing. As a matter of fact, he's probably one of the least
nasty guys that I've had to deal with from that side. Now that's a
strange statement, right, the one you have. Yeah, but he's probably
one of the least nasty guys from that side. Okay, again, I
don't want personal discussions. But meanwhile, this is a reproduction of a reproduction
of a reproduction on mcadam's website. Okay, fine, I yank out of
a folder while I'm sitting there talking to this individual on his radio show,
my copy of the one that I got from the Chicago Tribune archives. Okay,
secondary source beats tertiary source. That's what I thought. And I examined
it under magnification and can't find the same anomalies that he sees. And then
he corrects me about you know, I use the word distortion because he says,
well, notice this year, this person's face is coming out of a
wall. And I looked at it and I said, well, that's a
distortion in the photograph. And then I was corrected by being told that distortions
are only characterized as things like barrel distortion, pincushion distortion, and I'm like,
no, if you understand optics at all, there is all sorts of
distortions that can occur in the image. Pincushion and barrel distortion are two types
of distortion. They are not exclusively the only types of distortion that can occur
in a photograph. That's the wrong person to argue with it here. Well,
you know, I thought so. But again, you know, I'm
one of these guys who obviously just has this crazy agenda about looking at something
as close to the primary source as possible. You know, I know,
we're mad man madman evidence. Who could think, well, anyway, the
photographic evidence, well, you know it's yeah, good, Oh, I'm
sorry, this is Zach. It's really vital to understand. With my background,
I worked with a lot of archives and I've tried to focus mostly on
photographs, and it's really important that you have as close to the original source
material as possible, and if possible, you could, you know, do
a high resolution scan off of the original negative. And what you know,
what people don't quite understand sometimes, and you know, is that the more
like you're saying, the further you get from the original, the more deluded
the quality gets. And you don't know what you're looking at anymore. Now,
speaking of photographic evidence where you don't know what you're looking at, just
really quickly. There's been a lot of mistakes and a lot of shadows that
people have turned into people in a lot of different photographs. And I mean
in depository windows, on the grassy, no, everywhere. There's a huge
amount of them. But let's talk about one of the most famous misdirections in
photographic evidence where you have a delusion of the image. Okay, and that
would be, Hey, the limo driver shot him. Yep, uh,
okay, anybody, I'll throw it out there, any one of you,
go right ahead. Cooper, this is the the Bill Cooper synopsis where he
or synopsis, excuse me, the Bill Cooper hypothesis. I was being nice,
But this is the Bill Cooper hypothesis where he says that he knows for
sure that the limo driver shot him in the face, and then goes on
to tell us that it was with a certain kind of gun and that was
poison and all this other stuff. Okay. The problem here is that not
only does he say that, but he says it's backed up by documents that
he saw while he was working with the Pacific Fleet somewhere, which has nothing
to do with the Secret Service in the nineteen seventies. So it was verified
by that wrong, there's no reason for that documentation to have passed over his
desk, even if he was in such a position to see such classified documents.
Okay, so that's the end of that story. But the real problem
here is that there was a misrepresented it zu Bruder film, which anybody want
to talk about the condition of that film. I think that Zach's the expert.
I'm willing to weigh in once they do. Well, what version are
we talking about? What would generally be called the Cooper version of this Zabruter
film? Oh? Yes, you know, I've tried to attract that down.
I might have some friends that have, you know, a lot of
faith in Bill Cooper. He's got quite a reputation among conspiratorial minded people.
And does it it appears in his film? Isn't it something like There Rides
a Dark Horse or something like that. Well, actually, I'll tell you
what the history is without a problem, because sad say, somewhere around nineteen
ninety, and I do believe it might have been more like nineteen eighty nine.
When I first got involved in the case, I used to do something
called videotape trading, where I would trade videotapes of all sorts of rare things
with other people through the mail. I know it sounds like a really crazy
arcade idea, but believe me, it used to happen. Work we thankfully
do not have to do anymore. Right. But the thing is that I
actually received one of the Bill Cooper productions during that time, which means that
I got probably the second or third version that he put out from him.
Okay, wow, So what that was called was Assassin Unmasked. Originally that
was the graphic that he put on it with. I figured it out later
was a gold Star VCR that you could actually insert graphics into videotapes with if
you used it properly. Okay, anyway, this is what he used,
and he had a very very like I don't know how many generations removed from
a broadcast of the Zubruder film that he utilized in his presentation. So what
happens to a videotape when you keep recording it onto another videotape A copy of
a copy of it grades and the image begins to blur, the colors begin
to melt into one another. A lot of odd things happen, and this
film, again is not exactly the highest quality to begin with. Yeah,
okay, but the problem is, of course, technology being what it was
in the late eighties. This is what he presented as. And if you
look at this thing, and you know, at a glance, at an
undeducated glance, you could almost believe that there is a gun in the film.
Okay. The problem is if you look at a clear version of the
film, you know there's no gun. You know exactly what that shiny thing
is. You know why it seems as though, you know, the hand
goes one way when it doesn't actually go anywhere, and everything else, if
you look at a clear copy of it, if you look at even a
remotely clear copy of the Suppruter film, you won't see this. It's not
there. Yeah, And I think that's the unfortunate case of a lot of
these things, is that people want to believe there's something there, but without
evidence of it, it doesn't matter. We're just arguing endlessly about things we
cannot prove, So why are we add about them? No? I hear
you, and I want to hear from Trisha on some of this stuff too,
So please get involved, Trish, because I'm I appreciate that, thank
you, because I'll talk way too much yourself under the bus, buddy,
It's okay. I think it's important to follow the history of whose hands actually
touched everything. For example, Uh, and this is just my opinion,
but Robert Groden was the first one who brought it out obviously a Good Night
America. And I don't know if people are familiar with his technique called rodentscoping,
but it seems that every film that came out at some point went through
his hands one other. And I think it's important because again, your information
is only as credible as your source, and if the source is in question,
then you have to question everything. So again I think with all the
photos, whether it be the MARIANN. Mormon photo, the Zapruder film,
the nixt film, et cetera, I think it's a extremely important to follow
where the original film went in the history and who made copies and what generation
that goes ampfold with dickta Belt for example, I mean Gary Mack brought it
at during the HSCA committee and you know later on Steve Barbara later disputed it
with acoustics findings, and I think that it's very important to follow the history
of the physical film itself. Yeah, and Trish raises a good point about
the Groden scoping, which is basically like an animation technique, and when they
aired it on Goodnight America, he basically interspersed it with different clips and he
wasn't explaining where it came from and what he did, and people were trying
to you know, oh, is this really what we're seeing here? And
then you know, in reality, no, that wasn't it. It was
he you know, it was altered. And I not the point, you
know, point blame, but that happened. I mean even to the point
where he had taken quite a few films and basically spliced them together, so
you have a moment by moment from the time he turns off me Street onto
Houston Street, there's different films that he is spliced, which to a certain
degree, again is modifying it to make it as a one solid running film.
And again you have to take that into account. He may not have
manipulated in the sense where he's actually changed things on the film, but at
the end of the day, you're not viewing the original film, and I
think that that's really important that the actual physical film needs to be followed,
not only with just the pictures, but who had their hands on it.
I mean, you know, the more you dig into how many copies were
made, who got copies of any of the films, it's really quite astonishing
to realize that, you know, it could have been tampered with with multiple
different sources. And just the fact that the Zebruder film has been spliced is
evidenced that it was modified some way. And again I'm not saying that anything
in regards to the actual headshot and making his head go backwards versus forward,
et cetera. I'm saying that at the end of the day, basically,
because there is splices on it, somewhere along the line, it was tampered
with, right And that, you know, that could be one of the
bigger myths itself, is that, you know, people believing that the Zapprouver
film is a legit, you know, historical record of what took place,
and like Tris said, the fact that even if one or two frames were
removed, someone had a motive to do so, and it is it's not
accurate anymore. I totally agree. I think that this also goes into other
evidence as well, with the chain of custody. How trist said, you
have to keep track. If the chain of custody is broken, the evidence
is no good. You have to then verify it with other evidence. And
so it was still verifiable. No, absolutely, Yes, that's exactly it.
And the whole thing about exactly what Groden did. We discussed that with
cale Nick Jackson on this show actually because she said, for the first time
anybody realized that, you know, part of what Goroden was presenting that night
on Good Night America was actually a part of her grandfather's film. She said,
I didn't think anybody else saw it. I knew it right away.
That's exactly it. And he didn't even make that clear as he was presenting
it. No, he said. And again, just how he got access
to all these films is also very unruly. I mean, there's no fear
cut indication of how Groden got these films. Well, yeah, that's well,
the Supruder film itself, there's kind of a decent trail of of how
you can figure out how he got his hands on that mechanics copy and all
of that, that's reasonable, but when you get into the rest of the
nexus of Groden's collection, there's another story. Wow exactly. Okay, Well,
I think that since you guys brought up Groden so they can't blame me
one of my problems with him. He seems like a lovely fellow when I
met him in Daily Plaza. Seemed pleasant. But he was one of the
attendees at what I like to call the Judith Barry Baker Grave Party, where
they all went to Oswald's grave and basically threw a party and took pictures.
I have a problem with that. I don't care about anyone in this case
personally, I don't know them. I wasn't alive when they were. But
have a little respect. Don't go to someone's grave and take pictures and make
an event out of it. How about take your story, your myth,
as I like to call it, and present it somewhere else where a dead
body isn't buried. I don't know who could argue with that. You know,
I didn't understand that when I heard about it. I have not understood
a lot of the exploitation of a lot of people that have since passed on
and have had their words twisted around. Yeah, but that's I think part
of our deal. I think, you know, people be like, what
drives you, Carmine, Well, one of the things is all the dead
people that so many people can plume that the dead people deserve some respect from
both sides. I didn't agree with Jim Garrison, but he doesn't deserve to
be treated like scum. And I'm tired of people doing it. I'm tired
of people treating people on the other side like scum too. We're either going
to solve this together or we're going to argue forever about nothing. And I
take this time to say to everybody who is interested in the truth about nine
to eleven, you need to take a lesson from this, because although the
technology is improved, believe me, the same thing can happen there. You
know, if you legitimately believe that a new investigation is required, take the
lessons from the JFK research community and understand you can be held off for half
a century and on into perpetuity. Okay by stuff like this. Well then
well, another thing that you know you're hitting on, and this goes right
in with nine to eleven two, is that these are people, and Carmen
hinted at this is that these are people's memories. This isn't just some fantasy
story that's a detective story that we can sit and, you know, nitpick
about for our own entertainment. There's people's feelings, memories, family members involved
in this, and you need to be treated with respect. You're right.
I totally agree with all of you, and I hope that it starts to
carry across the community because I'm tired of people, you know what. I
love the joke, as I'm sure some of the people who debate me now,
but I'll joke about subjects. I don't joke about people. I don't
go after people directly, though they do love to come for me. Well,
and you know what, while we're another, go ahead, don't go
ahead. Sorry about that. Oh it's okay. I was just gonna say,
beyond the you're good, beyond the memories of the beyond the memories of
the deceased, we have to take into account the legacy of the people that
are still with us and how they were affected. I mean, one of
the things of sat Trician Eye a lot was the way that sometimes Marina Oswald
is being portrayed, and the way that the memories of her and Lee Oswald
are being scattered about. I mean, you see, you know, fifty
year old rumors of their love life being bandied about like it's just some sort
of barbershop gossip. And I mean I find that offensive. I mean,
the Marina is still with us, and obviously and her children and they that's
her, that's right, that's their fami and their father, and I mean,
goodness, it's just seems to, you know, get quite ugly at
times. I just think a lot of this A lot of people don't understand
that, you know, fifty years have passed, and people that are completely
innocent, for example, Marina's children, Marina Lee's children, this impacts them
daily, I mean, you know, and to have not only their fathers
smeared, but their mother being smeared has to be difficult. And at the
end of the day, we need to respect the fact that, you know,
whether Lee was innocent or guilty, his children are innocent bystanders in this
as grandchildren. And I think that it comes down to just respecting the children.
I mean, again, they weren't around when a lot of this was
happening, and if they were they don't remember it, and I think it's
very important and I think that people lose sight of that. Like Zach was
saying, these are real people, a real situation. It's not just some
sort of movie that we're following. And you know, it needs to be
recognized as traumatic event for a lot of people, whether they were witnesses to
the actual assassination or you know, indirectly involved with it. People need to
respect that there are people that are still attached to the memory of these people
that are being trashed and it's that was personally. What alarms me is how
petty and how insignificant that these conversations have become knocking everybody. And I'm not
saying that I agree with everything Marina says, and she's a saint by any
means. What I'm saying is, at the end of the day, whether
you respect what she had to say in her testimony or not, at the
end of the day, her children deserve that respect. Yeah, And it's
one thing I think to discuss it in Facebook or informs that I don't have
a problem with people criticizing, but criticized with some evidence. Don't just criticize
the criticize otherwise is waste this one's time. Well, exactly. And Marina
is one of those people though that I view regardless of what everybody else thinks
of her. I view her as an absolute victim because you know, look
at what she was faced with. You know, immediately the government turned on
her. The whole country was going to turn on her. You know,
she's the wife of the assassin. She's the COMMI wife of the assassin,
first of all. Then ever after she's being chased down by people that are
trying to you know, elicit all sorts of details from her that were really
inappropriate, and most of the time she had no knowledge of. You know,
she's continuously called on the confet for things. And though she's remarried,
she's forever Marina Oswald, you know, and pretty much, I mean,
her children don't even have a public life for the most part. Based on
this whole thing, exactly it, Yeah, I think this might lead us
perfectly into somebody else you and I wanted to put on the list, Chuck,
Well, go right ahead, Carmine, because I know where you're going.
If I may start, then Judith very Baker, she to me,
represents one of the largest feasible myth makers in our community, someone who has
wasted fifteen years of everyone's time. Go ahead, Zach and Trish, because
good well, you know, I really don't want to make this a personal
attack on Judith, But in my opinion, I think that if you're going
to a plain a story such as she has, again, not only is
evidence required, but on the same token, of course, people are gonna
pick it apart. I mean, people are gonna analyze what she says,
They're going to look for new clues based off her statements. And I really
do feel that sometimes the attitude from her and the people that believe her and
are basing their belief solely on faith that she's telling the truth, really do
end up making more of a divide in the community than really what's necessary.
I mean, you know, it's really a line drawn in the sand that
either you're with us or against us. If you know, for myself,
I've said this many times. You can believe in a conspiracy and Lee's innocent
without believing her story. And that's personally how I feel. I don't believe
Judy Baker at all. I really don't. I really find that her story
is very well fabricated and woven in to historic facts, but at the end
of the day, she doesn't have anything to back it up other than some
wts and she worked with all world. I think that people need to really
analyze everything, and that's not just with her story. That's with a lot
of researchers. You know, we're still discussing the same stuff that was brought
up twenty five years ago. You know, there's got to be more information
out there, and I think that people need to really kind of dig in
their heels and start analyzing everything from square one. And I'm even talking about
the Warm Commission, the HSCA, and everything else that has been officially documented.
People need to go through every statement with a fine toothcomb, and they
have to be unbiased about it. If you go in with the attitude that
Lee's innocent, of course you're not going to notice anything else. Same versus
if you go in it holdheartedly that Lee's guilty. You have to go into
each piece of evidence and statements and look at it with unbiased eyes. And
you have to follow both sides as far as they take you. Yeah,
and you have to go to the primary evidence. Don't go to books.
Books are actually want to check out people's opinions on the evidence. But books
are not definitive. Books are secondary sources, right, And I've said several
times that what I usually do with the book is I read through at once
to see, you know, if it even seems remotely possible that anything is
valuable in it, I go through it a second time and begin to break
down exactly there's citations where they come from. You know. This is why
I'm not a fan of Lamar Waldron. But anyway, yeah, I don't
mean to. Sorry, I deviated from the topic. Now let me let
me just do it quick. Greatest hits the reasons why I do not believe
Judith Baker. She has no primary evidence, her name never appears in any
single file she has ever been able to present since the first time I asked
her months ago till now. She claimed that she made anthrax on the education
for him. Anyone can go there and check it. And I suggest that
you read my article, Trisha's article, Matthew Solfell's article. There's quite a
few articles about her and why her story another work now the anthrax thing.
She needed training that she didn't have time for her Once again, timeline problems
like the Commission, because she said she was nineteen and she was doing these
things. It takes years. She was a lab assistant at best. She
never made a cancer bio weapon because there's no evidence of it. There's no
evidence that the technology even existed at the time. So when I hear her
repeat it over and over, you can repeat something so much as you like,
just like the Commission did, it doesn't make it true. That is
part of the problem. But every time you begin to break down even the
smallest thing in one of her you know, in one of her stories,
it seems to me it falls apart. Based on the context. A really
great thing that Zach and Trisch did recently, I wonder if you guys would
like kind of give people the idea of that article you guys just put out.
Reverend Jim. Reverend Jim, Yes, because I pointed to the very
same I pointed to the very same situation in an article years ago. Okay,
But my whole thing was the the ridiculousness of misprinting the word new I'm
sorry, that's not something that a dyslexic would do. Who hails from New
Orleans? Okay, find me anybody who is knowledgeable on the on the subject
of dyslexia, and tell me that they're going to get a subject who does
that as a grown male. Go ahead and find one, Okay, but
okay, we'll leave that alone. You guys came up with something though that
I thought was just wow. So please tell everybody. Well, when we
started into this again, we were more interested in We started looking up Lillian
Morett's testimony and what jumped out at us was this lettering job that Lee had
basically not received. He had been practicing his lettering and Missus Morett had stated
that her six year old neighbor's daughter could do a better job at lettering.
So we started looking into that a little bit, and then we ended up
looking into the Warren Commission and finding that two individuals were interviewed at a place
called the Ad Shop, and that was located on South Rampart. When we
started doing a little bit more digging and pulling up newspapers, we actually found
the ad for the lettering job that Lee had applied for, and it was
for a large advertising company, which was very interesting. So, just on
a fluke, we were reading through jud Barry Baker's book and she had mentioned
it eighteen times that they had been doing some lettering and some painting at this
shop. So we started looking into the shop a little bit more in the
area and the history of the area, and basically it just came back that
it wasn't possible. It just wasn't possible. The segregation and the tension in
that time, especially with the Freedom Writers that were doing their bus tour from
Washington to New Orleans. That was a good indication of the tension that was
building up in that time period. And when we started looking into Reverend James,
who she refers to his Reverend Jim, and again James is his last
name, so I don't know why she was short and his last name as
Jim. But aside from that, we discovered that he was in fact a
black man. So we started researching white people working for blacks back then,
and that came directly into the Jim Crow laws of that time and the segregation
and how you know, for example, a black child could not play in
a baseball diamond within two block radius of the white community, so that started
setting off Bell. So again we did as much research as we could,
trying to find pictures of this location. Unfortunately, we were never able to
find an actual picture of this shop, but we were able to find some
history dating back to the nineteen hundreds and the Jewish community and a lot of
stores that were run there. And then once we started realizing how rough of
the neighborhood this was, and how how to put this slightly, how two
white individuals would stick out like a sore thumb in this neighborhood. And again
they would literally be breaking the law by working for a black man. And
again they needed separate bathrooms, they needed separate eating areas for the white employees,
if this was possible. And to be honest, we couldn't find one
example of white people working for the colors. Back then. There was a
lot of information about how employers would have to sign off and take responsibility for
black employees and that sort of thing, but we couldn't find one example of
Caucasian people working for colors during that time period. Right, and Judith neglected
to mention in her books she and you know, to her credit, seemed
to be you know, foreard minded about civil rights. But no, not
at a single time did she mention that, you know, the gem was
an African American and and you know, I think that would be a very
significant thing for her to mention. And and like the way that the laws
were worded is basically that they would have had to have provided these expensive accommodations.
And from all historic references, Reverend James's place was quite a small place
and and we can't determine how this would have ever taken place well, right,
And and just just to clarify really quickly, Uh, the fact that
you guys are using the term colored is because that was contemporaneous with the time.
Yeah, it's in the documents. Yeah, I mean that's exactly what
they cite. There was you know, white and colored. This was the
definitions of the separation. That's the root of what was going on. So
this is why you gots using that term. We want to ourselves some attacks.
Yes, That's another thing I'd like to discuss too, is that,
yes, all of us have received threats. All of us and I'm talking
right now, have received you know, people swearing at us. That goes
to the other box for me now, because I started a block list that
I'm more than happy to pass out to anyone listening. Yeah, because that's
the way I think that this is my opinion, and everyone can disagree with
me all they like. But the only way, it seems in some cases
that we are going to raise the conversation above these people who do not wish
to talk about evidence is to get rid of them, to put them in
a part of Facebook where they can rent by themselves, away from the rest
of us who use evidence, and not just Facebook, car Mine. I
mean, you know there are the various forums, all right, there are
the various areas where they comment, they go after you on I mean YouTube.
Believe me. I had a history of these people on YouTube that you
would not believe. Back when YouTube had a you know, like an email
type system. Man, I could not go three hours. Yeah no,
and we're not I just want to state that everyone listening to we are not
Judith Baker. We are not saying, oh we're part victims. Please,
no, we'll fight you, but bring the evidence, pal, because we're
not just gonna sit there and argue with you about poetry. Well yeah,
there you go, and you know, and and and the ignorant arguments and
attacking people personally and all this other stuff, you know, for whatever ails
them. I mean, look, I don't talk about people that have nervous
conditions which you could only do, uh, you know, things like that.
Yeah, yeah, no, yeah, we're not saying we're well,
yeah, we're not saying I'm sorry. And please press that time in after.
I promise I'll make this quick because me and Chuck will go forever because
we like to talk to each other. But but you know, the bottom
line is is you're here to do research and you're here to do evidence,
and you're here to progress this case or you're in the way. Those are
the only two types of people here, right, And just really quickly,
the phone callers, please hold off until I ask for you, because I've
already had to dismiss a couple and I'm sorry about that. But I'm not
quite ready for you because we got a few more things on the list that
I want to make sure we hit. I'mbody in a movie on Baker.
Whenever you are, I just hope the community is ready to as well.
No, that's just a taste of what's wrong. Okay. There are a
myriad of circumstances, Problems with the historical context of what she's saying, difficulty
believing, a whole lot of other things. You know, take note of
interviews where she's completely upset by homosexuals. But meanwhile, whether people realize it
or not, there are some people who have been outed in the case,
and there are still people to this day that it is not public knowledge we're
homosexuals that she claims to be surrounded by. Yeah, okay, that's an
oddity that I don't think anybody brings up. And I have a little theory
about that, but it's only a theory because Oswald seems to move in circles
where there are closeted homosexuals. Yeah, but anyway, well, we love
this thing new with the reality of his movements though, And I mean to
tell you that that's an international thing. Okay, So yeah, go back
and look at that. Anybody who's researching Oswalt, please and see if you
can explain it, because I have an explanation, but I don't feel confident
enough to really settle it out in public yet. Do you mind if I
I plug Rob Clark real quick? Oh no, absolutely, the Lone Gunman,
Yes, sir, if you get a chance, everyone, please listen
to Rob Clark's I Believe I Was Episode fifty one, The Evidence and Documents
episode we talk about another thing. Judith, apparently being such a supposed close
friend of David Theory, forgot to mention which is a document I found that
shows that he was running feasibly a child sex cult called Omnipotent. So this
is not the person in her latest book that she presents. Is not a
good person. He's not jovial, he's not nice. He was a lunatic.
He was a madman who had militaristic dreams and was trying to use boy
scouts for his sexual desires. Well, and see, now, I don't
know that I can even go that far because I haven't seen all this stuff,
to be honest with you, No, I'll show you. I'll show
you everything. And even here's the thing, it's a matter of how many
of these documents, because there's that one I found one where he tried to
go into a hospital to convince a young boy not to testify against him.
Now, how many times does the evidence have to indicate something until this woman
realizes she's wrong? Right? Well, like, like we've all said,
though, we don't want to spend the whole time. Oh yeah, I
mean you know we could. I mean, you know, look if we
do four two and three, Hey, we'll do it again. I can
doing the documents, I promise. I see devoting an episode to this and
spending some special time on how it is you derive five hundred pages after knowing
somebody for a summer. But yeah, well someone said Judas is kind of
like a slow train wreck, and I said, well, there's plenty of
room on the train for all the mythmakers. Absolutely true. Let's move on
to a couple of other myths, if that's okay with you, guys,
Trisian Zach. Sure, And I'm sorry it's three months of repressed owner.
And I understand because, as I told you, I tried warning people about
this years ago, that this was going to become a bigger problem, and
they did not take me seriously. They really did not, because you know,
after all, I'm not the most highly educated guy who studied this,
so I don't really know what I'm talking about. Nobody's ever going to take
that seriously. It's just another one of those you know, things that Nigel
Turner did and don't worry about it. And you know what, that's another
myth in my opinion, because I'm proud to work with people who bring evidence.
I don't care about titles. I don't care about their education. If
there I'll take a reasonable man over an educated fool every day of the week.
Amen to that, brother. So let's move on to a couple of
other things, okay, that are constantly bandied about, especially in alternative media.
And I don't know who wants to jump on this one. I'm hoping
that either Trisi or Zach grab this first, because I know this will be
fun for you, Carmine, but i'd like to hear from them. Yes,
I'm sorry, I promise, I want to talk again to they're done.
George H. W. Bush in Daley Plaza. Well, yeah,
that's that's always been an interesting one. And this gets back once again to
uh trying to identify people in less than christine photographs or images that are not
quite clear right. And there's been, you know, a picture taken of
showing a guy, you know, it's not exactly quite certain who this gentleman
is, and then people say, well, look at this hairline, look
at this posture. This has to be George Bush, I mean, and
that's quite responsible. I mean, and you know, people have gone so
far as to try to statistically prove that, you know, Bush was there
and he had this has to be Bush. And I'm not naming names as
a certain gentleman who loves the statistics that I've talked to you about this several
times. But I mean, you what and but it gets back to what
would it prove if he was there? I mean, he's not holding a
rifle. I mean, and what what what? What is it going to
solve there? I just dropped the comparison photo because I put that in the
chat room for you guys listening, and in the chat room, Uh so
you can see from another angle the figure that is alleged to be George H.
W. Bush and the same figure from another angle. Just I'd like
to go ahead. I'd like to make a point. Good, I'd like
to make a point. I'd like to make a point here. And in
some of the archival work I've done, I am. Part of the job
that I had to do was identify individuals in photographs. And sometimes you'll get
photographs of people that from families and some family member later on down the road
will write a name on the back of the picture. These are people that
they knew, and they'll write a name on the back of the picture,
and you can prove that it wasn't even the proper person that they're identifying,
that they that they were misidentifying somebody that they knew face to face in a
photograph. So how is it that people are so certain that they know who
an individual isn't a photograph that a they've never met and be it's they don't
even have access to the original photograph to begin with. I mean, it's
absolutely it's it's a waste of time, right, But I mean, like
I said, one of the really great methods is to cross reference. If
you have a multitude of photographs you know, of a body of people from
particularly different angles, which we do have and nexus of photographs here in Dealey
Plaza, you can compare one figure to another and sort of begin to play
match game with them and you can see them from different angles. I mean,
much like that whole you know, Jack Ruby is in front of the
book depository thing that was incorrect as well. You know, It's just exactly
is this should ultimate if you if you're going to go that route, it
should be ultimately left to a like forensic experts or be experts in anatomy,
people that understand exactly what they're looking at lay people trying to identify people based
on, you know, a hairline or something like that. That's it's you
don't it's it's beyond the scope of what a lay person should be able to
accomplish. I think a big part of it, too, is hypothetically,
if George Bush was involved with this assassination in any form of way, do
you really think that he would put himself in that position to be photographed?
Do you really think that he would be on site? I mean to me,
that doesn't make sense. He was attempting to run a Senate campaign at
the time, would he put himself out there? Yeah, you guys are
totally right. I waited. You guys are totally right, because that's my
contention with everybody that ever says they see someone there. If you want to
plot the go off, you don't show up at the crime scene. Only
a moron shows up at the crime scene. Yeah, and the you know,
the over the years, I believe I saw a graph one time compiled
by somebody who decided to figure this out. They they alleged something like I
don't know, five hundred historical figures have been accused to have been at Dealey
Plaza. In one way or another through somebody's work over the years, and
I imagine that they didn't actually get to all of the literature. Okay,
so if I may quote the Commission, which I am loathed to do,
but when they get it right, they get it right. Credit where credits
do go ahead, there is still another category of speculation and rumor that complicated
and broadened the work of the Commission. Numerous people claim to have seen Oswald
or Ruby at various times and places in the United States are abroad. Others
insisted that during those days the following the assassination, they had to detected significant
actions on television that were witnessed by no one else. Well, right,
I mean, including people that swore up and down that they actually saw the
assassination broadcast live that day. That was actually an assertion for many years,
and there is no way that that happened. It did not happen. Yeah,
but they still go on and hopefully this will help the movement to start
the stoppage of that. Well again, I know we could treat these subjects
to long discussions, but I'm trying to jump around so that we can and
actually get to some of these phone calls next James Files if you don't mind,
oh Files, you guys the Grassy Knolls. For those who don't know
Sutton, mister Sutton is the Ji Jim Sutton, who is you know,
prisoner at Juliet I think still right anyway, been interviewed a few times,
has confessed to being the shooter on the Grassy Knoll. Go ahead, trash
Well, I have a couple of things I'd like to bring up about Badgeman.
First and foremost, it has been documented that Gary Mack and Jack White
weren't actually the ones that first found the badgeman. It was actually Ruth Carter
Stapleton, who was Jimmy Carter's sister. Correct. She was the first one
who actually pointed out that there was an individual in the Mary Anne Mormon photo.
The first story that went around was, of course Rosciale White, his
son came forward saying that everything was in his diary, it was all documented,
so on and so forth, and then through analysis of the ink used
in the diary, it was then established that his wife, Missus White,
was actually the one who wrote up that diary. Once that story basically became
dead in the water, then all of a sudden, Files comes into it,
and for myself, I find that very intriguing, especially considering Beverly Oliver
had stated that she did in fact see Rosciale White that day. So again,
the story evolves once something is knocked down, and I think that's really
important. And I think eventually, in my opinion, I think the James
file will be another one of the Roscallle White stories. Well, it will
eventually just fade out because again it comes down to evidence and proof, and
I think that there's just too much pointing. And again this is just my
opinion that the didn't come from the Grassy Ole. I do believe something happened
there, whether it was a diversion or something to get people to run up
there, I do holdheartedly believe that. But if you look at I believe
it's called the KGB Secret Files of the Kennedy Assassination, Robert Groden and amongst
others, and I'm sorry I can't recall who all was involved with it at
this point, but they actually blocked off the plaza and did a laser test
of it. And when you see how Robert Groden tries to match up the
headshot with the grassy Old, it's impossible the bullet could not have done a
U turn in JFK's head. And by all accounts, it appears that the
shot either came from the front or from the back. And again, when
you take into an account Custer's testimony, and again Custer's obviously one of those
people that either you believe them or you don't, it seems to make a
lot more sense given the information that he stated in his testimony. So again,
I do believe, holdheartedly something happened on the grass that got people's attention
and got them running that way. And again, in my opinion, I
believe it was a diversion. But if you actually look at how the bullet
entered the head from the right side and then exited the right side as well,
I mean that that's you know, physically impossible, right, And for
trajectory information, I would say, you know, take a look at somebody
like Sherry Feaster, who's also been a guest on this show, exactly exactly,
an actual crime scene investigator, Yes, an actual exa definitely hands down
right, And as far as the final sorry, as far as the files
thing goes, though, I just want to say one thing about that.
The Roscoe White timing is a lot longer than you guys probably think. You
guys think of the Ricky White thing as the first time the Roscoe White thing
came out, But no, that was introduced earlier. That was introduced earlier,
and it all, it all actually came from the fact that that Roscoe
White's widow turned over one of the backyard photographs to the House Select Committee at
one point. Yes, and she had she had a copy that nobody else
had. Right now, that's easily explainable, believe it or not without adding
Roscolle White to the conspiracy. Uh. The fact, the fact of the
matter is is that pieces of evidence seemed to disappear from the police station in
Dallas, and if Roscoe White was a cop and being around there, that
would make perfect sense. A lot of evidence was being taken as souvenirs,
right, thank you exactly. My reasoning which is, you know, which
I knew from actually speaking to Dallas police officers. But okay, but where
would they know, Well, they wouldn't know much. They were just you
know the Yeah, I know, I know. But anyway, the Jimmy
final story, the problem is that it doesn't line up with the existing evidence.
It doesn't line up with reason. You can't find the figure that Files
would be in any of the photographic evidence, and it falls apart. On
the face of it. Bob Vernon is the guy who actually sold it to
Whim dank Bar, and Wim does this thing with it, and that's the
world according to Whim. I don't want to say, well, and that's
fine if the same category to me, I'm sorry, I'm sorry Files and
Baker fall into the same category for me. Yeah they did it. Well,
no, they are, as far as I'm concerned, they're the same
thing. They both go back to dank Bar. You know. That's That's
the issue, is that not only do we have these myth makers, we
have people funding them, which is a whole other interesting issue. But anyway,
let's continue to tackle this stuff because, believe it or not, we're
through the first hour. Guys, I know we could go all day,
I'm sure, so get onto. This is one of my favorites. By
the way, LBJ is the mastermind of the assassination. Ooh, now,
this is a long drawn out mythology. Okay, why do I say that?
Well, it's kind of logical considering in the nineteen sixties. If you
think to yourself, Well, you know, he became president. He you
know, if you're talking about nineteen sixty six, nineteen sixty seven, you
might think to yourself that LBJ might have something to do with it. First
of all, it was public knowledge that the guy had all sorts of corruption
charges around him. Okay, it was the whole Bobby Baker scandal, not
something that was discovered, you know, by bar McClellan. Okay, The
fact is that the Bobby Baker scandal. If you listen to broadcasts of local
radio in Dallas and Fort Worth that day, you can hear the headlines about
the Bobby Baker scandal while JFK is visiting Dallas. Okay, if you don't
believe me, I'll send you the file. Moving on, Yes, he's
assassinated Kennedy in the state where Johnson's from. So it's not a it's not
a horrendous thing to imagine that LBJ could be involved. He benefited because he
became president. He obviously had control of certain things in that state. I
mean, after all, John Connolly is directly relatable to him. The other
guy was wounded in the car. Okay, a whole lot of other people
that are involved in the motorcade, the choice of buildings, all these kinds
of things. It makes kind of sense. But there's a problem, well
a problem, that's funny. There's a lot of problems here. And I
have given people the context and Carmine, if you want to start, go
ahead, but I want to make sure you hear from Zach and Trish on
this too. I'll get you. I'll let them go first if they wish.
I want to be more. They are the people I would like to
be, the stars. They are the new guests. Oh no, no,
no, no, you're gonna want to thank you guys. Well,
this is a special place in my heart because it relates to a guy.
I'm sure that everyone in the Garrison group wanted me to give a shout out
to Dave Sharp. Dave is an interesting fellow who has constantly shadowed most of
our forums trying to push the LBJ myth and I tried to explain it to
Dave, but he wouldn't listen. So hopefully if he's listening now to listen
this time. It is highly improbable that Lyndon Baines Johnson was part of the
conspiracy. He was part of the cover up. I will give everyone that
he was totally part of the cover up. He didn't want any of this
to escalate into something he couldn't control, So that I think is fairly established
by evidence and most reasonable people can accept. Lyndon Johnson, like all the
other politicians, didn't want this to turn into something else. However, he
likely had no part in the assassination. Now what you said, you said.
People say, well, it was in Texas. Yeah it was,
which would obviously link back to him. So why would he do it where
it would link back to him. That's a big problem, isn't it.
Yeah, you know, And here's the thing. I am willing to accept
the idea. And I'm gonna let you know, Trician and Zach get on
this, But I'm willing to accept the idea that somebody tapped him on the
shoulder and said you're going to be president soon. I'm willing to accept that.
I'm willing to accept that he might have even had some foreknowledge, although
he wasn't ducking at the time and all that other nonsense. But that aside,
I'm willing to accept that possibility. I'm willing to accept that a completely
corrupt politician got swept up in something, tried to control the investigation, especially
through his personal relationship with or Hoover. Okay, so Hoover again, who
you know, basically framed and let go anybody he wanted to, and controlled
loads of dirty information on people from the inception of his office with the FBI.
But okay, okay, I'll accept all of that, But him planning
it hell of a reward to only have one shadow presidency of his own,
to wind up a broken man and to have his legacy destroyed exactly. Okay.
And how about the shooting gallery. Why wouldn't he be there if there
was a miss, anyone could be hit. Yeah, and I'm sorry.
I absolutely believed the phone call where he's talking to Hoover and he says,
you know, were any of those bullets intended for me? That sounded like
an honest question, especially considering there was no way in helly had any idea
that anybody in the public would ever get to hear that tape that was for
his private use. Yeah, whenever I hear people talk about the tapes and
the things that he could have said, he wouldn't have been using as many
racial epithephs if he thought that these tapes were going to be listened to,
much like Nixon. Yeah, I'd like I'd like to bring up I'd like
to bring up interesting anecdote that relates to this, and it's the story of
Godfrey McHugh who is in the Air Force and he was originally supposed to ride
in the presidential limo and got moved incidentally, but after the assassination, Godfrey
McHugh wanted to track down Johnson and get permission to take off, and they
couldn't find him. And they found Johnson evidently in the bathroom of Air Force
one, crying and telling McHugh, look out, this is a conspiracy.
And you know why if he was the mastermind of it, would he be
crying and telling one of his generals that this was a conspiracy. Yeah,
Johnson had doubts two for years. I have documents that I'm more than happy
to share with you guys and those who are interested. Where Walter Jenkins,
his personal assistant, told Hoover that Johnson was having a moment of doubt where
he said he knew that CIA were somehow involved. I mean, this isn't
Johnson was not the villain that so many have wasted time trying to portray he
was a villain. He wasn't a good man, But that doesn't mean he
was the leader of the assassination. Oh yeah. Let me let me be
very clear. I'm not saying that this guy was innocent in any way,
shape or form. What I'm saying is he's not the planner. He's not
the architect of what happened here. Smart enough, all all all of the
all of the you know, all of the like you're saying the recording saying
that he thought when the bolts was, you know, wondering if one of
them was meant for him, and him being upset about this seems to me
to indicate that he knew that something was going on, but he in no
way was the one that planned it. And I also think by him being
in the parade, I think that he was close enough to hear the shots,
you know, and that that's a very powerful thought if you think about
it. He just witnessed the man above him being murdered, and I think
it's very powerful that he knew that potentially that could happen to him too.
And again I like to use the expression he heard the shots, he knew
what potentially could have happened to him, and I think that's really important.
And at that point, he was expendable in the sense that he was easy
to maneuver the way that they wanted him to. But isn't that the case
with all these guys post Kennedy and I believe that also, believe it or
not, Nixon was removed for the same reason that he wasn't cooperating. I
agree, Yeah, fascination is not their only tool, right absolutely, you
know, and they had already decapitated, they already fed them. You got
it, you got it. I I am so glad to be on the
air with you. Guys. You have no idea. I'm gonna tell you
what now, I'm going to open those phone lines. I'm going to open
those phone lines, though, and I don't know what we're going to get.
But I invite anybody who wants to call in now to ask about any
of the subjects we covered or anything else related to the case. And you
know what, if I've got any sort of clue, or any of my
guests have any sort of clue, will be more than have be to give
you our ideas about what's what okay, And let's not forget that. You
know, there are the major myths and there are also the minor myths.
Okay, the whole Well, there were fake Secret Service agents everywhere that was
bandied about for many many years. The sewer shot from X files, the
sewer shot, which is an impossibility. And let me just back up with
a little bit of evidence on the fake Secret Service agents and how so many
witnesses saw them. Okay, the first thing is there is a Secret Service
agent named Lem Johns. If you could just turn down your radio, there
we go. Yeah, oh, thank you man. Hold on, just
a second secret Service agent, Lem John's. Take a look at his testimony
and just imagine for a moment that he's not lying. It is very easy
to see how a secret Service agent running around with his credentials open at that
time could be spotted by various people in the crowd who are frozen, some
of which have thrown themselves on the ground. So there ends a whole lot
of that speculation, maybe not all of it, but let's try and trace
these things back to the evidence. Okay, So I have one caller on,
I have another one coming in. Uh Charles, first though, how
you doing, man, I'm doing good. How are you guys doing doing
all right? I'm doing good, folks, for finally talking face to face
after messaging back and forth with the last god knows how long, and you
are live on the air, so no doubt, please go ahead and contribute
to the conversation. All right, Well, basically, I've been listening since
you just after you guys started about an hour ago or whatnot, and you
guys have been knocking them off all my next getting sore from nodding from what
you guys keep saying, because one after another after another is like bang on.
I mean, you've got doorway man, You've got LBJ did it?
You've got uh bring up JVB. And the one that really bugs me the
most because I run, as a lot of you may know a JFK site
is the limo driver that just bugs me to no end because if we get
it constantly, and it just bugs me because it's so easy to disprove.
But you get these stubborn people on there, and this is true with all
of the subjects. You get these stubborn people on there, and they don't
want to admit that they're wrong, even when you can show straight up that
they're wrong. It just nos sense. Yeah, they personalize it unfortunately.
Yeah, why do people get so personal over this? I mean, it's
one thing to have a disagreement. You can disagree with someone and still be
respectful towards them, But so many people make it so personal that you disagree
all the sudden, insulting them what for? Yeah, yeah, yeah,
that's right. Bugs me when people do that, and I'm I mean,
I'm not one to do that. You guys have dealt with me long enough
to know that, But there's so many people out there that do. And
it just even like I'll even say, if there are people that I discussed
and I think you guys know them, two guys like you know Fred James,
Steve Rowe and so on, most of these people are alone. Gunman
Oswald did it on their own stuff, and I completely disagree with that.
But there's no reason why even though we disagree with them, we can't talk
to them in a respectful manner. Yeah, there's an other parble that are
the same opinion where you can't you know, and just really quickly. Of
course, David von Pine has an excellent video collection. O. Yes he
does. Anyway, he doesn't like to debate much with me. But yeah,
he's got a real nice sponge of videos. Yes, that's true.
True. Okay, two things. First of all, unknown caller, I
can't accept you because if I do, it will knock us off the network.
Okay, so you're gonna have to unblock your number if you want to
get in. Next thing is I wonder who they're from. But I wanted
to make that announcement. Plus, we also have another call around six seven.
How you doing, I'm great, I'm great. I just want to
say, nice show. I want to shout out to my three favorite researchers
out there, which is the hit Man. Nice, hey hit Man.
How you doing, Hey, gug, Thanks for the shout out. I
appreciate that. I just wanted to touch based on something Karma said earlier.
When you really start digging into what authors are writing and you start looking at
the primary sources, very often you're going to find they're just listing someone else's
sources and they've never looked at the actual documents, and that leads to a
continued mythology that is really frustrating. When you're you've got people citing other people's
books and you when you as a researcher start digging and you find the actual
document that people are quoting, and it said nothing even remotely close to what
they're using it for. So, Carmine, would you like to cite an
example of this, Oh, the documents? Oh yeah, I think I
might be able to think the one. Yeah. Mark Lane has a document
that everyone loves the site, but no one really looks at the exact document.
They just cite his movie or they cite his books. Now, the
document does say the word Mauser, as Lane contends. However, if you
read the whole document, the only thing that sounds like Mauser is that word
Mauser. Everything else goes with the Karkano and it's from two days later,
before they even knew what street Kennedy was hit on. So they made a
mistake like they made so many other times. Instead, Lane sup that and
forever has bandied it as there was a Mauser, there wasn't. I also
have a document of Roger Craig's original interview with Mark Lane. Guess what they
don't mention a Mauser. One other document, Misrepresentation, which is one of
my favorites, which is out there and is part of the mythology in the
alternative media is Executive Order number one one one one zero. Now, anybody
want to tackle that really quickly? The Federal Reserve thing, Yeah, I
leave that open to you, guys. I've done it enough. Play somebody
else. I've heard this one so many times. The whole JFK was going
to end the FED. Well, first of all, let's examine what it
is they show for proof, which is the United States note okay, which
existed long before Kennedy took any sort of office, which existed post Kennedy,
all the way up to nineteen seventy one, when there was a change in
the monetary policy in this country because Nixon finally took us the rest of the
way off the gold stand. Hello. Okay, but read the executive order
for a moment. What does it actually do? Anybody know? No,
I, after I saw the claims, I just sort of you got this
one trip. No, You're doing a great job. Okay. It's actually
an augmentation of a previous executive order. Okay, And it looks like Hitman
dropped off the call. You know, you can call back in if you
want, Man, I have no problem as long as you can, you
know, kind of not not make a whole lot of noise. You're good,
so you can hang out. But here's the thing. It actually is
an augmentation of a previous executive order, and what it does in reality is
turn over the presidential privilege of deciding how many of these notes are issued to
the Secretary of Treasury. That's what it actually does. And once again,
unknown caller, I cannot accept you. You will have to unblock your number
in order to call in. I'm sorry, that's just the way things work.
It's not my rule, it's just the way things work. Can I
make a quick joke? Sorry, Judith exactly, thank you. You know
she has to go back. Okay, yeah, So please, first of
all, read the document, and you know what, don't believe me.
Don't believe me if you want to read a similar analysis of this, and
this should have been dispelled many many years ago. If people accept the the
UH, if people accept the authority of somebody like you know, G.
Edward Griffin on the subject of the Federal Reserve, go ahead and enter G.
Edward Griffin and the JFK myth into a search engine. Just go ahead
and do that. See what you come up with. You'll find that he
printed an article in two thousand and one explaining this away once and for all.
Now, maybe you don't believe the whole Jackal Island thing, but I
do. And I'm going to tell you right now, if you understand the
way that this guy did his research on that, and you also read the
documents, I can't argue with g Edward Griffin. So go ahead and look
at that if you like. Anyway, Sorry, go right ahead, guys,
but do read the executive order. It is possible to get a copy
of it. So what's next? I leave the floor open. We didn't
really get too many suggestions from Zach and Trish. I mean, what didn't
we cover, guys that you really want to get to. One thing I'd
like to mention is Dennis Morsett and his work with the Babushka Lady. I
think that he's uncovered quite a few interesting topics regarding that, and I really
do hope at some point you do get him on your show to take a
listen to. He's uncovered quite a few different things, including information regarding the
camera, which of course Zach had a part of helping him with. And
I think that that's a very important topic. And I don't want to step
on any toes by any means by bringing him up, but I do hope
that at some point you do consider bringing him along. Yeah. I think
that all of us agree that, like we said, the lines need to
be redrawn. They shouldn't be pro an anti conspiracy because that infers a bias.
They should be pro and anti evidence. And I'll tell you what,
if you look back at at Richard Sprague's work, and I'm not talking about
Richard Sprague, who actually was you know, removed as the as the chief
counsel for the House Select Committee, I'm not talking about that Richard Sprague.
I'm talking about the other one, Okay, the guy who did photo analysis.
If you take a look back at him trying to track down who the
Bebushka lady was, that sounds a hell of a lot more plausible than Beverly
Oliver. I'm sorry. I told Brett Holland the same thing on this show
that you know, although I agree that he had some very good sources in
his book, one of the ones that I would have absolutely advised him against
using was Beverly Oliver because I simply don't buy her story. It's that simple,
you know, and gee, there's there's reasons for this. But you
know, I'm wondering if anybody doesn't know. By the way, just I
always got to rewind this because you know, I forget you know, I'm
speaking to people that understand all this stuff like I do. And once again,
blocked number caller. Do you think I'm kidding that this is? Like
we learn learned five or six of these now blocked numbers cannot be accepted.
Okay, if you allow your number on, I can bring you into the
show. Otherwise it doesn't work. I wonder why they're not letting the number.
And it's not like they don't have anything honest to say, do they?
I don't know because I didn't speak to them anyway. See, see
there you go. I had to put you back into the I hope.
I'm sorry, Chuck, please go on. I just wanted to respond real
quick. Well, okay, the bat Bushkae lady. Just a quick explanation.
There is a woman who is easily seen in the Ubruder film and also
the next film, the you know, the alleged copies that we have now
at this point in time, that is wearing a scarf over her head and
a coat and all of that, and she's standing in the vicinity of well,
let's see, now, let's think about this, Charles brem Mary Mormon.
She's on that side of the road, okay, opposite from the grassy
knoll, and she seems to be holding something up to her face. And
for many, many years now, people have accepted that this is a lady
named Beverly Oliver. I have reviewed her accounts of things, I have reviewed
the photographic evidence. I simply do not believe her. Now. Could I
be wrong. It's a possibility, but that is where I stand on the
subject. But just so everybody knows, this is who we're talking about.
And Beverly Oliver used to make a very big deal out of when she was
on the Heraldo Show or whatever, which did remind me just now that we
did not touch on Madeline Duncan Brown. But anyway, we that before before
the party time, because the assassination party is important, isn't it. Okay,
but hang up on the call here, like the only people in the
world that weren't active party, because at one point or another everyone seemed to
be there. Yeah, absolutely, even people who were documented as being an
ass h for for instance, jadg ro Hoover. Yeah, yeah, too
many people saw. Yeah, I'm sorry. I don't want to cut anybody
off. I was just gonna say too many people saw an executive action and
then made that happen in their mind. Yep. I mean it's not that
it isn't feasible that a meeting occurred with some people at some point. But
once again, Johnson had no I think they're trying to call again. No,
that's just a little bit of noise coming off with Charles there real quick.
I don't know what about that. My phone slipt on me. But
but Johnson likely wasn't there. Hoover likely wasn't there because Hoover wasn't dumb enough
to go to that meeting. I mean it's people don't understand. That's an
implication, and then that's where it begins. This has to be a small,
compartmentalized operation. This can't have tons of people knowing about it. Otherwise
someone's gonna talk, right. No, nobody's gonna have parties where they invite
you know, mistresses and random people uh to appear and actually see for their
own you know, see with their own eyes the meetings that occurred. This
is Oh, you want to know the best part is it's supposed to be
at Clint Murchison's house. Funny enough, there are documents showing that Clinton Murchardson
sold that house in nineteen sixty two. Now I decided, let's throw a
shindig at my old house. You're exactly that's right, You're exactly correct,
Charles. That is one of the major major issues with this. Another thing
too, is it's third party too. In a court of law, they
wouldn't accept hearsay. And in the documentary they have a maid that is discussing
what the limo driver had said that apparently drove Hoover to and from the airport,
so on so forth. What another major holder in a court of law,
that wouldn't be accepted. And I think that's it's very important to remember
as well. If it's not accepted in court, it shouldn't be accepted in
the court of public opinion either. Yeah. No, I totally agree with
that. I get an argument for people all the time telling me this isn't
a court. No. But see a lot of people always talk about how
they want to reopen the case. Well, let me tell you a little
thing. If you want to reopen the case. You need evidence. You
can't just guess, right, right, And you know what, I didn't
even bother. I don't even remember giving out the phone number, by the
way, that's the funny part too, uh seven one eight seven one seven
eight two nine six seven one eight seven one seven eight two nine six And
you can't block your number, which, okay, I think it's safe to
say that we're not paranoid anymore. No, no, absolutely not. But
anyway, thanks guys, I appreciate the house. Well, you know,
listen, you gotta have a little bit of fun with this because after a
while, man, it'll it'll make you really crazy. Yeah, it's laugh
a cry and like the laugh, yeah, exactly, And and you know,
and the sad thing is that, you know, again, like I
said at the top of the show, we take this seriously for our own
reasons. And you know, it's not about solving the great crime mystery for
a lot of people. It's not about correcting history for a lot of people.
It's not about you know, it's all sorts of different motives. But
here's the thing. If we can all agree to deal with the realities what
exists, what's left of the evidence anyway, okay, and the best documentation
we can get our hands on, the best testimony we can get our hands
on from first hand accounts. You know, this might become a whole lot
more simple to deal with, and it wouldn't have to be something that requires
a thousand volumes, okay or better. At this point in the literature of
all sorts of mainstream published books, which of course we didn't touch on the
biggest mythology of all, which is sort of a oh a composite of the
O'Reilly's posners and uh, Dusty all of the other Warren Commissioner defenders that have
been out there, you know, starting with David Bellin of course, uh,
moving on well beyond that, of course. I don't know if you
guys ever read David Bellin's book about this. No, no, okay,
Well, when when you have time and you feel as though you want to
lose a few IQ points go writing it's not I think I lost enough read?
Yeah, how about Juda's book? I want my money back. I
didn't pay for it, so I got to get I got an autograph copy
given to me for free. Who didn't want it anymore? We don't why
they didn't want it. If we're lucky as the mistate into obscurity, that'll
be a rare collector's item. Yeah, no, I'm hoping so. And
I told you the story Carmine off the Air about how I got hold of
my U my Boogliosi book. Right, good one. This is a good
one, okay, two thousand pages, all right, two thousand pages from
Boogliosi. And I won't even get into all the allegations about whether he did
his own work or anything else. Nope, I don't need to do that.
But let me tell you this. A fifty dollars book is sitting in
a bookstore discounted on top of discounted, and it became two dollars and fifty
eight cents. So I decided it was tiled by the book slash Steed Ram.
And this was not long after its release, Ladies and gentlemen, This
book stop, this doorstop of a book failed almost right away despite all its
pre orders. But anyway back to it, and they released their you know,
a smaller version of it, you know later, the four Days of
November deal. But I got mine, and I decided to go back to
the rack and buy the other four that were sitting there because it was two
dollars and fifty eight cents with tax, by the way, which is seven
percent in New Jersey. So I'm not sure exactly the math right this moment,
but you can do it in your head. So I walk away with
this cumbersome stack of books. I went outside to the nearest dumpster. I
tore out CD rahm and and an illustration section of one book, threw four
of them into the dumpster, and walked away with my one copy and proceeded
to torture myself for the next oh at least a month trying to get through
this boring thing. Thank you, Vince Bugliosi. I would really like my
two dollars and fifty eight cents at any time now, sir, But I
would more, you know, since you have such great uh uh, you
know, analysis about the universe and the nature of God in your later books.
I would really like that portion of my life returned to me, if
you can, so I can relive it without your book. Interest interests would
be nice, but I'm not demanding interest anyway. So many guys, I
just felt like I needed to say that, because I don't know if I
ever said that on the air. But I told Carmind that story and he
said, you got to you gotta remember to tell people that. Yep,
I learned an absolute lesson because the author of Helter Skelter, or the alleged
co author of Helter Skelter and Methology, also provides us with an overwhelming,
boring volume of crap. In the JFK case, so something too. It
case closed. Yes, if you want to do a little bit of damage
to your frontal lobe, find next kill kill, killing Kennedy, killing Jesus,
killing Patton. I think now, well, yeah, my thing with
Posner and O'Reilly I think is fairly well known. With O'Reilly, it's another
myth maker. And he finally got caught, which is awesome. And I
credit the family, I credit Jefferson Morley, I credit everyone that came out
against him. People argue with me about why I liked an article where Hugh
Ainsworth came out against him, because he's pro commissioned. I don't care.
It's the truth. Either you want the truth or you don't. See that's
the thing. If the truth is the truth, that's the end of it.
And even even with a guy like McAdams, who has been extremely you
know, divisive over the years. I'm sorry. When he's right, he's
right. Yeah, we're all right. Sometimes we're all wrong sometimes, and
people need to start realizing that. Yeah. Absolutely, Okay, So again
seven nine six and blocked caller, I cannot take your call. I'm sorry.
I think we have fans. Is that seven? I think that's seven?
It opens now, all right? Got a government persistence eight for persistence
for evidence. There you go, and we're actually an hour and a half
deep here, so man, oh man, I'm now just gonna throw it
open and shut my mouth as best I can. I'm sorry, guys.
I know I talk a lot and I kind of pushed the subjects along,
but I wanted to make sure we covered a lot of ground. You're great,
suck, don't worry about it, Okay. So if you guys feel
as though something was left out, especially you know, because you and I
kind of dictated the topics a lot here, Carmine, I'd love to hear
from Zach and Trish about whatever it is that they think we left out.
Okay. Well, one of the things that it pops into my mind,
maybe we touched upon it briefly earlier is door Man, and you know,
haul peoples tend to think that this is it's going to be or did,
and some people still do. I mean, we have a whole Oswald Is
Innocent committee that tends to think that this is the piece of evidence that's going
to solve this or did solve it in their minds, but in reality,
it's really just nothing more than that. As we were talking about before,
it's just you're staring at blobs. I mean, I Trician I put out
an essay about, you know, our analysis of Judith Baker's Doorman pixation analysis,
which in reality was really and I you know, don't mean to criticize
her particularly, but I guess this is a criticism. It was a really
poorly thought out study. It was extremely juvenile, almost I hate to say.
She backed it up with pretty much nothing, and she said this was
the most important piece of evidence that she's found to date. And this is
just a tip of the iceberg. With this movement. I call it a
movement because it is they've basically taken this extremely You refer to Elpkins, it
was that photograph, and it's they take the blobs of what you can barely
make out an image of a face and and and a body, and they're
and they're turning it into Oswald and using it as the touchstone, the Rosetta
stone for the entire case. I can't begin to say all you're responsible,
that is m yeah, yeah no, And and she's not allowed. Other
people do it too, black dog man, hole man, prayer man,
blah man. They make up new names, They come up with a myth
and they try to sell it. What what is the name for that day?
I always forget go go ahead, no, go ahead, sorry,
no, go ahead, go right ahead. I'm okay. You you just
you keep you you. You have to almost wonder what sort of psychological mechanism
comes into play that allows people to do with this and then carry this torch
until then end of their lives. Almost, I mean goodness, you can
present evidence that says that you know, well, I think you're wrong here,
and they just don't want to hear it. What it almost borders on
some sort of I don't want to say, you know, mental illness.
Almost. Actually, religion is what I like to use. It's like religion
they've convinced themselves. You're putting faith into it. You're putting that right,
Trista, You're putting faith into something that's really what it is. I'm myself,
I'm a faithful person. I'm a religious man, but I definitely see
comparisons in the way that you know, there there is no quote unquote evidence,
you know, hard empirical evidence that God exists. It's faith. But
once again, there's no hard empirical evidence that Oswald was Doorman. But yet
people still just stick to their guns and no matter what, and even Oswald
stated that he wasn't in the doorway. So again going with you know,
Oswald spoke the truth all the way through his interrogation and people need to believe
him, but they don't believe him on this. He's wrong, he didn't
know where he was. You know, it seems silly to me. You
know, it's cherry picking the information that fits the story. Yep, no
consistency, absolutely, And uh okay, So we got a question from the
chat rooms regarding the Don Adams from an office building with a high powered rifle.
Uh scenario, what was militier? Yeah, the whole militier thing.
Yep. I'll go or one of you guys can go, whatever you want.
I'm sure we all know this one. And then after that we have
another caller, So you want me to go, are you guys? Okay?
Miltier, in my opinion, is a possibility. I think that there
are some credible researchers out there looking into the nationalist movement angle. I think
that they could have been part of it. But once again, like the
mafia, they were not in control. It had to be a rogue agent
or it had to be somebody with the CIA tactics of the Guatemala documents through
fifty four to set this up properly. Right. Uh five four oh area
code. You're on. I'm getting to schmutz the out of the the chat
room. Oh well, hold on a second. I was trying to get
to the five four oh caller. Hold on a second. Uh five four
oh, you're on? How you doing shows? All right? How you
doing good? Your boys a part to the loneom and tie can shut up?
Hey, I just wanted to call and tell you all what a great
job you're doing, and I am thoroughly enjoying the show and it is much
needed and much overdue. That's great, man, I'm glad to hear from
you. Yes, thank you much talk. H I'm gonna go eat dinner.
You'll have a great night and I'll still be listening. Thank you,
Rob the four oh two area code. You're Ron all right, Yes you
are. Hey, guys, I really appreciate this show. This is Fred
James. Actually wow, yes you did. You were one of the good
ones. I thought I thought there was something that something. Derogats were negative,
but on this on the thread for the one, I think it was
actually mean. I think it was actually mean. This is Charles Fred.
I think they was actually mean that brought up your name, and what I
was just saying was basically that you know that you seem to be pretty,
you know, pretty much into the Osbald was a lone shooter opinion, and
I just brought up that there's guys like you, and the other guy brought
up was like Steve Rowe who have these beliefs, but yet you still speak
to everybody in a respectful manner and you don't take shots of people just because
they have different opinions of you. And that's kind of funny because there's a
caller that couldn't get in m M. I heard the suggestion that maybe that
could have been Judith Baker, but that was actually Steve Rowe we're communicating with
each other and talking about the show. I mean, you guys are doing
a good job. Trician Zach are some of my most favorite researchers ever.
The on Judith Baker, the pix of the Generation, the analysis that she
did, I mean, it just totally shows it doesn't give her any credibility
whatsoever because it's just one more points in these points to just add over and
over and over again. It just keeps adding up. And if he keeps
a bunking the person in different areas of her, you know, to let
allegations she's making, how can you how can you be considered by anybody to
be credible when you have so many things that just continues to get knocked down.
So I don't, you know, it's just one of those things.
And I just wanted to show my appreciation for, uh, the work they've
done on that and Carline are the premium that you put on evidence. I
mean it's just like very strong everywhere that you put it, and I really
appreciate that. It keeps me on my toes. I mean, you you
guys have seen me in the threads debating things. I'm kind of nervous.
So just you're doing great. I don't worry about it now, Fred kind
of like, take take it. Take a breath for a second. Man,
I want to say something. You're you're a guy who believes Oswald did
it. Yeah, actually, uh a twenty two year journey. I actually
did think that there's room for a conspira seat until a little over a year
ago. I made a little bit of a transition. In my opinion.
If there was a conspiracy, it would have to involve Oswald as a shooter.
Okay, well, then the conspirators who would have been involved would be
unknown at this point. In my opinion, that's the only way I think.
I think that's wholly reasonable. Fred, I don't. I don't think
that we can attribute innocence to Oswald utterly. That's that's a bias. So
that's why I think we can get along is because he has he's a pass.
That means some sort of connection somewhere. Now, whether he was set
up early or whether he was part of the engineering of the plot, I
think is the question that remains. Yes, I think that's possible, but
right now I don't think it's probable. It's it's a possibility in my mind,
but I just don't think that's what happened. But that's not why I
called you to talk about that. But I just wanted to make one comment
though about the the Bushy Lady. Okay, I actually a conference last November,
and I saw the shoes barely purports to be the shoes she wore on
that day. Those are not the shoes of the bubusk Lady. The shoes
that you can see clearly in the the skags and allan photographs. Mm hmm.
The shoes that she says that are those, those are clearly not the
same shoes. Well, you know, you know what happens, Fred in
the fringe end of this stuff is obviously the photographs and the films of the
Bubushku lady wearing those other shoes have all been drawn in. You know.
This is the and and believe me, I'm saying this sarcastically. This is
not my viewpoint, okay, but this is gonna not exactly what you're saying
to be saying. This is the nonsense that will be generated when you present
them with the contradiction. And here it is, you know, And I
just want to SA say really quickly, and I you know, I apologize
because it is my show. So I want to say this to you.
I'm really happy that somebody that thinks Oswald did it called in. I really
am, because I'll tell you what, I would believe that a whole lot
faster than I would ever buy a tenth of what's in that Me and Lee
book. Okay I would. I would gladly accept that a whole lot faster
than that. And in fact, I'll tell you a funny thing too.
And I know I've never said this anywhere, but the realistic way that I
started this journey was to disprove conspiracy theory. I really felt as though it
was very strange what happened, because when I was nine years old, I
thought it was very weird that a guy was killed while in the custody of
the police. Okay, that shook me. But then I thought the kookie
conspiracy theories are ridiculous, all of them. Problem is, then we have
we have common ground there. Yeah, and that's the one thing that needs
to be pointed out. That's somewhere where we can come together. And the
funny thing also is actually, up until about a year ago, is.
It was people like Zachtory and Trish and some other friends that I consider them.
I really do consider them friends of mine now and now Kimi, who
I've gotten to know over the past several months, actually people who make me
look at the case from an everydentuary point of view. That's actually what caused
my transition. The only room I leave for a conspiracyal is as I previously
described, But actually it's these people who are you know, who I considered
some of the greatest researchers, who have shown me that the way to look
at this is through the eyes, through the scope of evidence. That's what
made me the way I am now. I mean, I'm just giving you
a little bit history about myself. That's not the reason why I called.
Just wanted to point out the thing about the Bush collect But I didn't make
a transition. I was conspiracy theorists since the early nineties until last year.
But because of this show and it shows like in the research that's going on
that I can totally agree with, it makes me want to call in and
talk to you guys. It makes me want to chat on the sides because
we have common ground, We have a place where you know where we all
agree that there's some ridiculous things slowed around out there, and to me,
it is disrespectful to the history to have such things out there trying to cause
division and trying to distort some things that we can come together and know as
fact. Some people are just trying to distort them and in my opinion,
those things need to be pointed out. That's why this show is very important,
and people need to look into these things on their own, do their
own research and find out for themselves. I mean made trips to Dallas,
I've talked to Eugene Boon in person. I've done things. I mean,
I look at things, I measured things, I go and delie positive and
do things on my own so I can find out for myself. I want
to be. I don't want to just rely on someone's words or someone's book
or someone else's research without checking some of the things out for myself. And
you know, that's that's my transition. I just a little bit of a
something I just wanted to put out there and and realistically that's how I started
out. That that's exactly how I started out. Is let me start to
verify because I happened to be in proximity to somebody who had been there,
so I see, and they mentioned in a book I happen to know that
they're in a particular city, and I would just pick up a phone book.
I know that's an old reference at this point, but there used to
be phone books in every city file, yes, sir, and I remember
those days, yes, you know, And I would pick them up and
I would say, gee, you know, I heard that a couple of
the guys that used to work at Bethesda are now in Pittsburgh. Hmm,
guess what. Let me look them up. And a lot of times their
phone numbers were listed. And I've said this on the air before. Some
people just hang up on me because who gives a crap, I was a
kid, whatever, But some of them would talk to me and tell me,
well, you know, that's not exactly what happened, or you know,
you got to understand this or that. And thus the journey began,
you know, actually comparing what what people are saying, witnesses said as opposed
to what they have to say, you know, big difference in a lot
of cases. And I see Fred's call too, is important because it's showing
that both sides can agree on some things, and I think that the most
research development, and the most progressive research was done when both sides were able
to work together at times instead of always being at each other's throats because they
disagreed. Oh right, I agree with that. Yeah, you got to
realize too that you're not going to agree on everything. It's just not going
to happen. That's the nature of human human nature, I mean, and
that's the real meaning some people are some people are Red SOX fans. That
doesn't mean that you can't, you know, still get along and have constructive
discussions just because you're not, Oh well this, If you don't disagree with
me, I don't want to talk to you. That's not the way to
go about things. And all it does is create bad feelings. I can
give ample examples of that with the base I've had with Trish, with Carmen,
Carmine, and with Zachary where we didn't agree, but we always can
come together and find something where we do agree, and we the thing that
we all want for sure. We want accurate history. We don't want people
making up things about this tragic event that affected this the world from the point
that it happened. It affected not just the United States, it affected affected
the whole world, and we take it serious. We don't want distortion being
made. We want we want to find the truth. We're all with the
the truth, and there's truths on both sides where we can come together and
find them. Yep. One of the one of the better examples of that
part of the two is sorry, tris one of the better examples. I
was going to say A big part of go ahead, tris. I was
going to say that was part of the big downfall with the Garrison investigation was
he didn't have the resources of the man power. And if you think about
it, the most powerful world leader was assassinated. This is a world stage
thing. And if there's so many people throughout the world that are investigating this
on their private time, they're not getting paid to do it, et cetera,
et cetera. And if you know, everybody's heard different legends, different
stories, they have access to different information depending on where they are. And
if we could bring that all together and harness that and work together, I
think that we could move mountains together. Yeah, exactly, Well, And
I was going to say that one of the best examples of that. To
be honest with you, and this is often forgotten, is the universe still
agreement between people that absolutely believed that Oswald is the guilty party and the only
guilty party, and those of us on the other side of that issue.
Okay, who came together after the Oliver Stone thing happened. Okay, and
the ARRB happened. Now, I know it's a big, old but document
dump and it's a hell of a daunting thing. And I can't even say
that I've been through all of it myself, but wow. Yeah, that's
one point at which we all came together and said, listen, if this
is the truth that he did this, then there's no reason to keep withholding
all of this stuff. Right, Let's have the files. Let you prove
that Oswald did it. You know what, if that's the way it comes
out, if there is absolute proof and government hands that shows without any question,
or not without any question, but just to a reasonable certainty that that's
the answer, I might accept it if and verify it. Yeah, there
there's a There was a good point. I think it was Walt Brown,
researcher there, Walt Brown who came out and he said, if it's such
cut and dry pace or cut and dry case, and Oswald is the one
that did it. Why is there even one piece of paper being withheld from
people? If I could in real quick the castro plots among others. There
were lots of the legal operations woven into the assassination and peripheral to it that
they don't want us to know about. But the bottom line is it's going
to come out, so holding off on it just makes you look worse.
Right, right, and and all the other position on aarb and and any
information that may potentially come out. I want the truth. I can be
influenced back to the other direction if the if I figured that the end has
gone that way, Yeah, if there's a conspiracy, I mean it's clear
and plain to me, I'll go back to the other ways. I'm the
way I am now because of what I see it. So if there's no
you know, I don't have any biases. I do have biases, and
I do have emotion about the whole thing. I'm more emotional about the truth
now than anything else because after a while, after a while, that's exactly
where it goes. Fred, is that you know you don't any longer care
about being married to a theory. Okay, you actually want to know what
happened. That's it, that's exactly. So let's get I started to find
things out like I never believed. I thought was doorway man. But there
are some other things that I did believe both. Oh, here's an example,
the parade roup being changed at the last at the last minute, which
I do not believe happened. When I found out that that was not true,
I mean I because I was such a follower of Jim Garrison and other
things similar to that. When I found out that those things weren't true,
it made me like really angry and emotional. Well fin finding those things out,
I did not I want I want it so passed to believe Oswalt was
completely innocent. Was set up. I understand, I understand completely. And
Garrison did very well with what he had, but he didn't have that much.
That's what the problem was. Amazingly he got some of the things that
he did, but still it's not a complete you know, we can't deify
the guy. It doesn't work that way. Listen, we've got less than
five minutes left, and Schmutze from the chat room added back in. So
I'm wondering, smutzy, what you got to say, because somehow I don't
know I've lost you before. Yeah, no, you must have dropped me.
But that's either humor there. The recently, what I wanted to just
throw out there is I remember years ago I heard of a guy named Don
Adams. He was supposedly an FBI man, and I think he wrote a
book I guess with his take. I just wanted to know, throw it
out to the panel and ask them what you no they thought about you know,
that particular account. There's also a well on YouTube video with that guy
on it as well. I threw a link to his I think books that
his website into the chat for anybody who's interested. They could just scroll up.
But you know, yeah, I'll be honest, I haven't seen that,
so I will definitely review it. So thank you very much for adding
that, Smithy, I do appreciate that, Chuck, you were telling me
a little bit about him. Well all right, Well, the Don Adams
thing is largely based again on the Milty Air story, and the problem with
that is that it doesn't really go anywhere unfortunately, and there's a lot of
things that FBI agents retired FBI agents have come out and said, and it's
really all over the mast. Don Adams in some ways revisits a lot of
very old sort of ideas about the assassination. Because this guy who was literally
involved in fundraising for extreme causes, especially racial causes, literally taking money from
people at certain points to promote the idea of the assassination of doctor Martin Luther
King, Okay, to try and collect money for those that would want to
support his assassination. This guy's literally guilty of that kind of stuff, and
Adams had a little bit of direct knowledge about this particular individual. Now,
as for his involvement in the Kennedy assassination, I think it's a little far
fetched because they've sort of tied it to another one of these very blurry images
in Dally Plaza. It is, however, remarkable that it seems as though
he had some advanced knowledge. But then again, this type of advanced knowledge
was in a lot of different cities. This is again another reason why I
don't buy the whole it's a Dallas plot and it's the oil men and all
this other stuff. I don't think that Miltier was a player personally, but
he's definitely a figure worth researching because the guy was involved in all sorts of
chicanery regarding uh racial politics and and support of that kind of stuff at that
very Yeah. Now, I think I think that Milkier Milkier largely was a
mid level leader in the racist movement. Yeah, he was a mid level
leader. He was. I'm not saying that it isn't possible that he could
have heard wind of something somewhere, but he had no direct knowledge in my
view. And I also think that it was more of a response to Hoover
utilizing illegal methods to destroy the Klan. You got it, that he would
want to kill JFK, not any of the reasons people try to attribute,
right, right, and look, it's just the timing issue. Yeah,
absolutely, it isn't it. And it's an interesting subject worthy of study all
on its own. Okay, uh uh had what Stu x lare on and
we discussed this, you know, regarding the MLK assassination and the different plots
that arose, and Miltier is tied to that. Whenever you want to do
MLK or jfor RFK, you let me know anytime I think we're going to
have to revisit this subject though, because guys, we're just about out of
time. I want to thank first of all Carmine Sabastano, who is you
know, a recurring guest here now, and also first time guests Trish Fleming
and Zachary Jandro right jendro see, I knew, it's great. It's okay.
You should hear what people do to my names. It's amazing. It
looks pretty simple to me, you know. But anyway, so I want
to thank everybody who decided to tune in, and of course all the people
that are going to catch this later on down the line on YouTube or if
you've downloaded and shared it with your friends or whatever else. The Ocelli effect
is just about done, and you can find the archives at the at uc
y dot tv slash toe archives are there, Links to the YouTube playlist are
there. Plus I will post this show on the blind JFK Researcher channel on
YouTube. Uh for the I don't know how many subscribers are over there now,
but I'm not very active, except I do post these shows because I
think they're valuable and I think that we did some serious damage to the mythology
tonight, although there is more to go oh yeah, so schwitze Man,
thanks for calling in, and a big thank you to Fresh Thanks, thanks,
thanks for putting up my nervousness. Not a problem, brother, The
truth is the thing. Thank you, Charles. Also for calling in.
Dot Gun absolutely man. And you know what, maybe we'll have to well
I don't know when we're gonna plan it, but we're gonna have to do
this again. I think us bat like us, don't comes down sideway stains,
come of g comes down side y grant chust so does so does branchas
has telegrays does go past set. The guy got t w n type n
y dost or snow dot n y s n g L everybody does sound block
down or SnO side by side siding. The sky's got like a sky turned
t d scot