Hey, Hey, hope you're doing well. This is a special edition.
We haven't done a special edition on Earth Ancients in a few months now.
And I ran into Robert Shock, Doctor Shock a few months ago, and
I said, we want to get you on here. And this is before
we had doctor Karacooney, the Egyptologists talking about repurposing, reusing coffins and funerary
items during the Dynastic period. And every time, you know, we were
speaking, every time I was mentioning a statuary to Kara, Robert's research came
up. In my mind. I thought, I got to get Robber on
the show. Because the ultimate, the ultimate repurposed Egyptian statue is the Great
Sphinx. And it's funny because you're gonna hear Robert's feeling on this topic.
But if you go to Wikipedia, if you go to Britannica Encyclopedia, if
you do a search for the history of the Sphinx, everybody will refer to
the pharaoh Caffrey as the builder, the one who had the limestone cut out
of the enclosure and made into the statue, which we now today recognize as
a pharaoh on the body of a lion. Now, what's strange about this
is that if you go and I've been to Egypt half a dozen times to
see this sphinx, if you look at it from an elevated position on the
ground wherever you are, the head does not fit the body. It's disproportionate.
It's smaller than the body, you know, right off the bat.
And I'm a trained illustrator, so I have to, you know, use
my eyes and my to gauge things. When you look at the sphinx,
the head not only is it disproportionate, it's it's completely alien to the rest
of the body, meaning that whoever the artists were, or artists most more
than one artist, perhaps an architect who created the head, they did not
find they did not follow the contour of the body. This is another issue
that comes up, and perhaps the most convincing is the head stone. The
stone that's used to cut the head is not the same stone that is on
the body. And this is the big issue that John Anthony West and Robert
Shock brought out in the late nineteen nineties when they published their work on the
Great Sphinx. There's an amazing TV series on the Sphinx that went viral for
that time. Of the period. Millions of people saw it, and it
ultimately ultimately led to a debate with Mark Lerner, an American egyptologist who at
the time was considered one of the great egyptologists of the world, and John
Anthony West and Robert Shock. And Lerner's famous words were, well, if
this original body on the sphinx is as old as you say it is,
and you know, Shock, Robert and John Anthony Us were saying, it's
several thousand years older than Coffrey, show me the potshards. Show me the
potshards that identify this earlier people. Well, at that time, no one
had really done that kind of research. Robert Shock was looking at it from
a geological point of view, the weathering, and you know, this is
the story goes that it was basically kind of laughed at, and geological research
wasn't accepted at that time. Later he was able to validate, Robert Schuck
was able to validate the weathering with others who are geologists who actually saw it.
And there's been a couple of geologists who have actually gone out to the
Giza Plateau to see the sphinx in person and made the same comments. So
this is a huge deal. And I've come to and I mentioned this in
the interview today. I think a lot of alternative researchers like myself have come
to the conclusion that if a person is educated in a certain field, and
in this case, archaeology, egyptology and all the books that they study,
under all the professors and everybody that is providing them with data to get their
PhD or credential, say there's no evidence of a sophisticated people before, say,
five thousand years ago, then that's just the way that they think.
That's what that's as far as they can stretch. And Robert goes even further
to say that egyptology is a social science, it's not really a true science.
And of course that's a bit of a slap to the face of egyptologists
and archaeologists, but that's basically it. You know, he's basically saying it
flat out that these guys are not studying science and they're not using scientific methods
in their evaluations of these ancient relics. So today we're going to speak on
We're going to open the show discussing the reuse of the original sphinx the age,
and he's coming up with some new dates the age of the Great Sphinx.
And then we move over to a fascinating topic, which is repurposing buildings.
And there's an article that I would suggest you read this on Robert Schock's
website. It's called a Hypothesis regarding the Ancient and Intentional Burial of Egypt.
And this is an article that his wife Katie Ulysses and Robert penned about twenty
four months ago, maybe a little less than two years in which they were
at Karnak in Egypt. Karnak is a temple, a very famous temple,
and they were looking at the entrance and they had found some very early turn
of the century images of when it was first discovered and it was buried.
It was fully buried, and Robert went on to discover that some of the
pillars were much older than had been thought, and there's great evidence for it
to be significantly older than the Old Kingdom when it was thought to have been
built, and that's typically around twenty five hundred BC, roughly five thousand years
ago. So this has been my big issue is that I think not only
the Great Pyramids and the Giza Plateau, but these templed karnak hathor even looks
are are likely to have been repurposed and reused over thousands and thousands of years.
And we'll here today from Robert Shock on his research and his collaboration with
other scientists to discover that there is evidence of an earlier people in the remains
of these places, of these temples, and that he applauds the new generation
of archaeologists and egyptologists because the old school must die. The Zahie Haas is
the Mark Lerners and these old old thought leaders which are today's history books.
And you know, zahie Owas is traveling in the United States. It's really
sad, and he's the one. He's kind of the spokesman. And this
is here's the guy who doesn't even for many years didn't even know where go
Beckley Teppy was. And he's the spokesman for Egyptology. Well that's just the
way it is. But here on Earth ancients we have people like doctor Karakuni.
And if you weren't blown away by what she had to say about ancient
Egypt, you should get her a book that's coming out in August. We're
gonna have Cara back, which he probably early next year to talk about another
book on repurposed items, repurpose artifacts. So this repurposing has been a shocker
for me. I don't know if it's made you aware of a real personality
issue with these dynastic pharaohs to go in to crips, into burials and pull
out the gold, the death masks, the gems, and displacing the mummies,
the bodies of various coffins and using those coffins after repurposing them. So
that's funny. So and I mentioned that today on our show with Robert Shock,
because he has known about this for a long time. And what's really
kind of a blower is he mentions this. He mentions that John Anthony West
not only was he aware of the repurposing of the Sphinx, but he believed
that many many temples were significantly older. And I remember talking to John and
this is like nineteen ninety seven is what I'm gonna say, maybe ninety six
here in San Francisco, and we were talking about the Great Age of the
Giza Plateau at that time. Of course he was talking about the Sphinx prior
to his television program, but he was very much aware of repurposing. In
fact, his mentor Schwaler de Lubitch, who he based his book Serpent in
the Sky, was also a believer in mass repurposing. This is a real
tell tale sign of great age, and we see it in Mexico with the
Maya. And I for a fact know flat out that most of the major
pyramids, and we're talking at Chichinita Ushmo' I think even at Edzna and flat
out at Tikal, the biggest in the oldest sites were completely and repeatedly repurpose
reused by different generations. So we need to wake up to this because when
we begin looking at this and thinking, okay, wait a minute, how
old truly is this? Are we dating these civilizations on the last versions or
as an example, at Chichinitsa, at the pyramid there at the El Castillo.
What we see in the pyramids covering is the last phase. There's three
other phases inside the outer shell, the outer stone shell, carving shells been
is covering up three other phases. Now, they they say they have dated
in the second are the Yeah, the second phase to a few thousand years
before that. But I think they're missing the point. And I think that
you know, like I mentioned, if you're only educated to go so far,
We've got to get some other science in there. We got to get
some other science to look at the possibilities that flat out. What the Mayas
of Maya have been saying for generations is that they come from a very old
civilization. They came from a place called Atlan, and their ancestors were the
brilliant ones. They were the ones who were looking at astronomy and they were
looking at mathematics. I mean, the Maya are brilliant, But the Maya
that we are given today, the portrayal Maya written about in National Geo and
the Smithsonian are bloodthirsty warrior kings, and those are just not the same people
that built these complex cities and aligned them to various constellations. Now, who
in the hell is gonna align an entire city with a constellation. Why would
you do that? Well, we're missing a whole science. We're missing a
science of energetics, of gravity, toleric fields, toleric energy. This is
all a physics and a science that was developed in the last epoch prior to
nine thousand, five years ago. Just have to deal with this backwards kind
of forced historical notion that is based on poor and faulty assumptions. So so
today's program is Forgotten Civilization. And my guest today is doctor Robert Shock.
All right, we're launching our official twenty twenty five tour to Easter Island with
my friend and co host, doctor Edwin Barnhard. We have ed with us
right now and talk about some of the creature comforts of this island, because
when I think of Easter Island, I think of you know, plant teens
roughing it overnight in the sleeping bag. But that's not the case, is
it. No, not at all. It is surprising. You'd think,
you know, so remote, there must be nothing there, but actually the
town of Hangaroa is very well suited for accommodating tourists. There are wonderful hotels.
Our is this this little garden paradise that's got high speed internet and a
beautiful pool to swim. I'm in and just a block away start these wonderful
gourmet restaurants. You know, Chili is the owner of Easter Island technically,
and those guys are really just gourmet foody people, and it's rubbed off on
Easter Island. There are wonderful steak and lobster restaurants, but even when you
go in a little sandwich shop, they really take pride in how they make
it. Yeah, a funny thing happened. I tried to get them to
give me some box lunches last time I was there, and they said,
no, that's uncivilized. Come back to town and have a nice meal.
So we did. So it's you know, it's a wonderful town. And
spread within the town are actually standing moi from the ancient times. There's one
overlooking their their soccer field right at the edge of the water, and it's
just so amazing. They're you know, they're their moms and dads are in
the audience, but so are the ancestors in that particular soccer field. It's
the revenue. We people are lovely, wonderful, a common people, and
people are going to be surprised about just how comfortable we are turning the week
amazing March fifteenth through the twenty third. For more information, go to Earthancients
dot com, forward slash tours and register as soon as you can. All
right ed, We'll look forward to hearing more from you later. Thanks Cliff.
The question that we've had continually is just how old Egypt is. We've
had doctor Karacunion recently talking about the odd repurposing of ancient relics, funerary items,
and as shocking as it is, we've just discovered that the King tut
death mask was not made for Tuton Common it was made for one of his
relatives, and this is becoming more and more of a problem. Unfortunately,
you're not hearing about this in the general sense of the information. In other
words, it's not being published widely, although there are books about it.
And today we are inviting back doctor Robert Schock, who's a regular with us
here in Earth Ancients, to talk about an article he wrote on the subject,
but we want to start with the Sphinx itself. So hey, Robert,
welcome back to Earth Ancient. It's great to see, Thank you,
thank you. It's a pleasure to be here. I want to start.
And this is something that I didn't realize until I was reading some of your
early work, that the Sphinx it was repurposed by Caffrey. And yet when
I look at the Britannica and other Wikipedia and other resources, it's never presented
it that way. All the literature says that Caffrey was the original architect,
the mind behind this amazing structure. And yet anyway you look at it,
this addition, this repurposing, isn't part of the original work. Talk a
little bit about that. Yeah, it's very interesting. And I first got
involved in this through John Anthony West back in the late nineteen eighties, so
I've been doing this for a long time. I first went to Egypt in
nineteen ninety to study just this very issue, and that is what we could
now call the repurposing of what what became the Sphinx, and the standard story,
the traditional story that you're referring to, which is still in most of
the major textbooks, and we'll call it conventional status quo. Articles and literature
and something like Wikipedia tends to be pre status quo by their own admission.
The conventional view is that the Sphinx was ordered to be carved by Cofrey,
also known as the Pharaoh, who ordered the building of the second Pyramid.
That can be questioned also, and that the Sphinx, so let's focus on
the Sphinx now, was carved by Coffrey or at his orders. He didn't
physically carved himself. As part of his funerary present precinct with the Second Pyramid,
et cetera. And the Sphinx, sits just due east of the Second
Pyramid, is traditionally considered part of that complex, with the causeway that runs
from actually south of the Sphinx up to the Second Pyramid, and it's really
all based on the location of it. To me, it's very much like
saying that you have, in modern terms, structure like the Colisseum in Rome,
which we know goes back to the first century AD, but you know,
thousands of years from now, someone excavates that and they excavate a twenty
first century building next door to it, and they say, well, these
all fit together. It's all in the same area. They must all be
the same day. So I'm being a little bit facetious, but not really,
because this is essentially what the Egyptologists do, but they had more evidence
that So when you look at the Sphinx, it is a human face on
a lion's body as we currently see it, and many Egyptologists claimed Mark Laner
is one of them who wrote articles about this. They claim that if you
look at the face of Kafra, the pharaoh from circa twenty five hundred BC
or BCE, fourth Dynasty, reputed builder of the Second Pyramid, if you
look at his face, and we can look at his face, because there
are several statues that reputely depict Cofreight, and you look at the face of
the Sphinx, they say, oh, it's the same face, despite the
fact that the sphinx has lost its nose, despite the fact that the jaw
line is very different, etc. Etc. I when I first went to
Egypt in nineteen ninety, one of the observations I saw was, No,
it doesn't look like the same face to me. But what does it?
What does my opinion matter? Because I'm just dumb geologists with a PhD in
geology and physics, geology and geophysics, and you know the Egyptologists, you
know, who are you to judge faces? So actually we did have when
I say we, John Anthony West, and I did have uh forensic expert
who is now deceased, but he was the Police Department in New York City,
Frank Domingo. He he handalyzed the face of the sphinx and the faces
of Copper that are known and came to the conclusion all the faces of Kaffer
are the same person. The Sphinx is a totally different face, different persons,
so that blew that out of the water. The second piece of evidence
that they use, then I'll get to my evidence for older Sphinx. The
second piece of evidence that they used, besides just a general round plan of
the Giza plateau and that sits near the second pyramid, the second was the
so called stella between the pause of the Great Sphinx, and that's the Tutmosis,
the fourth Dream Stella, as it's known, it dates from about fourteen
hundred BCE, so good millennium and more about eleven hundred years earlier than Kafra,
And on the register on the stella, it's said at one point in
the nineteenth century when it was first excavated, there was a partial cartouche that
said Kach and the people interpreted this as Kafra. That cartouche partial cartouche has
simply has since been lost, so we don't even have it anymore. We
only have records of drawings of it that were made in the nineteenth century,
and it's unclear exactly what it said. The Egyptologists since then, in many
cases have claimed that this said that Kaufra had the sphinx carved just as they
thought it should be the case, but the actual inscription did not indicate that
unequivocally. In fact, one possibility is that not Coffer at all that was
being referred to. Another possibility, which I put a lot of value in,
is that, yes, it was the name Kaffra, but what it
was saying is that Kafa restored and repurposed and reused this statue, just as
Totmoses the fourth was saying on the stella, he had done. He dug
it out of the sand because they had been buried up to its neck and
sand, and he dug it out and restored it. And I believe what
he was saying on the stella, and what we have remains fits this corroboration
says is that one thousand plus years earlier, his predecessor Kaffer had found this
ancient statue and dug it out of the sand and restored it. So let's
look at the restorations. When you look at the sphinx. One of the
first observations I made was that the sphinx is eroded by water water coming down
from above. It's not nile flooding. It's not rising, you know,
Nile levels. Some people suggest that, oh, you're right about the water,
but no, it's from the Nile. No, this is precipitation,
rain from above and rain runoff. Because we have vertical fissures that are very
diagnostic, we have what I call round and rolling erosion, weathering erosion.
When I present this first to my geological colleagues back in nineteen ninety one,
they basically said to me, Oh, that's nice. This is geology.
It's pretty simple. Why didn't anyone ever talk about this before? I mean
they were almost I was almost insulted because they were saying, well, this
is such simple stuff. You're here at this annual talking about something that's so
simplistic. And yes, I'm talking about something so simplistic because it has such
ramfications. It has such bearing because it goes. It means that the sphinx
has to go back to pre Saharic period. It's limestone, right, Robert,
it's limestone. It's eosine limestone, enclosure, the whole enclosure, the
whole enclosure. Most of the rocks on the plateau are sene limestones. You
get some mycene rooms. Let me just stop you real quickly. Does that
include the Sphinx Temple? Is that the same that includes the Sphinx Temple?
Yes? Okay, so all those mygolithics are okay, good, Yes,
with the newmulities with sea urchins in it, et cetera. Uh, there's
some coral shoals, uh if you know. So, Yeah, it's all
limestone. And what I want to point out is that we have rain weathering.
It has to go back to pre Saherte. We know that it's been
hyper error. Yeah, you have rain sometimes on the plateau. I've been
there where it's rained. That's not the point to get a meter or more
of weather in deep erosion. Those fissures et cetera in a limestone what we
could call charstic situation cast is the way limestone erodes people can think of limestone
caves, et cetera. In fact that it's a plateau is riddled with natural
caves underneath, any of which have been extended. But that's part of the
limestone karst features, which goes back to a pre Sahara bi magic period.
And the boord body as I call it, of the Sphingx goes back to
this pre Sahara climatic period. Well, let me stop you right there.
One of the things that John Athany West told me in an a lecture and
also in an interview, and he was not as critical as you were.
He was thinking twenty plus thousand years ago. Yeah, I know where that's
coming from. Okay, but what do you what are you are? You're
more concerned? What are you saying now now today, twenty twenty five?
Today? Now today? Okay? So let me just continue a little bit.
Has to go back to pre Sahara times initially, and I'll come to
now today. Initially, I said, as a geologist, given the amount
of weathering erosion that we see on the surface, it has to be at
least five thousand My initial date was five to seven thousand BCE. Throw that
out now. To get to the bottom line, I think it's before the
end of the last I SAG about ten thousand BCE. And I say this
for two reasons. One because it fits well basically, one reason it fits
all the data better. But some of the data that it fits better now
is when you look at the subsurface weathering, not erosion, but weathering mineralogical
changes. Basically, because we've found we looked at that seismically. So we
use seismic techniques to look at the subsurface and you can see the depth of
weathering down from the surface once the bedrock was exposed, so the floor of
the sphinx enclosure. And I hope I'm making sense. So you have the
sphinx enclosure, you had all this rock up here, you carve that out
to free up the body of the sphinx, and then once you have the
level there, you keep weathering down. There's mineralogical changes that occur, and
so the deeper that is, the longer it's been since the rock. And
you can do a comparative. You can do a comparison of the weathering and
come up with that date of ten thousand, right, And you can do
a comparison of the weathering, come up with the date and the best model
is are the best quantification of it. I'm convinced it's about ten thousand for
that initial carving out of the body. And we did this using as a
control known Old Kingdom structures and when they were carved out, So we have
structures that are twenty five hundred BCE. Without doubt. We've got hieroglyphic inscriptions
on them, and they are not weathered subsurface weathering to the same extent as
the sphinx. In fact, we're talking half or less for those. So
what you have is the core body of this great statue I'm convinced goes back
to about ten thousand BCE. And when you compare weathering types on the plateau,
you have the rain precipitation weathering for the core body of the sphinx.
Everywhere else for the dynastic known dynastic tombs and structure, you have wind weathering,
which looks very very different. In wind weathering, you get a very
distinct profile where you've got flat surfaces, desert varnish on it. But then
the softer layers we'll just call them softer layers. And limestone is like a
layer cake, so it's all these different layers, and the softer layers get
picked out by the sand and grains and the wind, and so you get
these wind tunnel effects which are very very prominent on the plateau. They are
exactly the same limestone as the sphinx enclosure. Zaiha was at one point asked
some geologists from Cairo University to disprove me by stating that the wind weathering was
a different limestone than the sphinx enclosure and the body of the sphinx, and
that's why they look different, not because the sphinx was older. They came
back and said, no, Shock is right, they're exactly They're exactly the
same limestone layers, and there is a difference in the weather and those They
were never heard from again, of course. I mean, it just went
back to other academic studies that happened to them. Let me ask you real
cleuarly stop you for a moment. Let's talk about repurposing. Yeah, so
I want to get any do we have any idea what the original sculpture had
was absolutely absolutely How don't we know that? That? So the repurposing.
So you had this huge you had this huge structure. Some people call it
the greatest, you know, monumental sculpture on Earth. Going back, its
origins go back to about ten thousand BCE, the Dynastic Egyptians starting about three
thousand uh BCE. So I'm just thinking in terms of unification of Egypt,
earliest Dynastic Egypt, uh they inherited this monumental structure, which was deeply eroded
by that time because it was seven thousand years old. I'm just giving approxate
numbers. And what they did. They did two things. One they tried
to repair the body as best they could. And when you look at the
body of the sphinx now, you'll see it has all kinds of repair blocks
on it. Some go back to old Kingdom times. According to Zai Hawas,
he told me that specifically and has published that that some of those repaired
blocks go back to virtually the time that they claimed the sphinx was card which
makes no sense. How did or more within a century or so. That's
actually something we'll talk about this later, but that's something we talk about in
the children's book that my wife just wrote. Uh, so you know,
even the young people should learn about this. But this this body was deeply
eroded, so they repaired it. But the head, the head of the
sphinx. When I first went to Egypt back in nineteen ninety one, initial
observation, literally within the first ten minutes of beyond the plateau and looking at
the sphinx is there's something wrong with the head. The head is too small
for the disproportionate it's disproportionately small. And what I am one hundred percent convinced
of is that they had a very, very a road it head. And
what do you do with a road it head? It was really impractical apparently
for them, or they didn't desire to try to repair the head and cobble
pieces all on the head to put it back together or to repair it.
They just carved it down. They took the road a head and carved it,
recarved it so it's too small for the body, and they carved it
into a human head. People can argue whether it's male or female. Most
people think of it as male. Actually, the sphinx has always looked a
little female to me. Females or androgynous is that the right word? But
what was it a originally? People ask? We now know it was a
lioness, a female lion, and the hell, how can you tell?
Can't tael directly from it? It turns out that the Egyptologists And I want
to point out that there is a link to an article about this on my
website. My website is Robert Shock scchoch dot com. I'm sure you'll have
links to it that type of thing. Now, I only point that out
so people can learn and read more about this, and I talk about in
my book Forgotten Civilization also this second edition. But how do we know that?
Not from direct observation of the sphinx. From direct observation of the sphinx,
I can tell you it's not the original head. It's a dynastic head.
It's a recarving. Egyptologist said to me many times, Oh, you're
crazy, this is a dynastic head. I said, sure, it's a
dynastic head, but it's not the original head. That's where you the Egyptologists
are wrong. It turns out the Egyptologists were perplexed that for a thousand or
more years there was no mention of the sphinx in any of the higher gifts
are the Egyptological legure, Well, it wasn't a sphinx at the time.
It turns out it was a lioness. And we now have records and this
was first discovered by my colleague Manu Safesday, and he and I and Robert
Bouvall wrote an article about it that in the Fourth Dynasty and earlier dynasties going
back to we've document at least about thirty one hundred BCE, there were what's
the word you would use, a visiers and you know, high officials in
the court who carried inscriptions saying that they were in charge of the archives under
the lioness me Heat, who is a guardian goddess, if you would.
That goes back to before dynastic times, before the unification of Egypt, and
they talked about a guardian goddess on the Giza Plateau guarding an archive underneath her
basically and even having a key to it. And there were, like I
said, people in the king's court, very high officials who were in charge
of the scribes and the archives that had to go with mehit this lioness.
And there's hieroglyphic inscriptions showing the lioness, which is what became the sphinx after
the head was recarved, even with a stylized key coming out of her back
showing that she's guardian archives. Now it gets even more interesting because back in
the early nineties with Thomas de Becki, the geophysicists who I worked with to
do the geophysics, we discovered a chamber under the left paw of the Sphinx,
which I'm absolutely convinced is that archive that me Heat the statue is guarding.
So it really puts it all together, and then I hate to get
into Edgar Casey and that type of thing. By my eyes, Well,
I want to talk a little more about the stone that was used for repurposing,
because the Sphinx temple was resurfaced with the same stone. It looks like
that was the adopted the new head, the repurposed head. No no,
no, no, no, no different stone work. Yeah, yeah,
let me clarify that, and let me just finish what I was saying about
Agar Casey. It got me a lot of academic trouble because we found hamber
under the left pole of the Sphinx, which the hieroglyphic inscriptions refer to,
and these inscriptions refer to it before the Sphinx was even supposedly in existence according
to standard modern egyptologists. So they're talking about the Sphinx or what became the
Sphinx in ancient Egypt before twenty five hundred BCE. That makes sense, which
in the case, you know the statue was there and that it had an
archive. She was guardian. She the mehte who became the Sphinx, was
guardian archive. Edgar Casey, the American psychic, happened to predict that there
was this ancient archive in or near around the pause of the Sphinx, which
we found a chamber. And that was a terrible embarrassment at the time for
me because I wasn't there to, you know, validate some psychic. But
he no, but he said, was I mean, this is just real.
I've ever heard you speak, well, rarely speak on Edgar Casey,
but yeah, well I might well, I figured I might as well mention
it because some of your some of your some of your listeners put that together.
So I run about. But I actually did not. I want to
make it clear. I did not know that Edgar Casey predicted a chamber.
Oh, I think when we found it, I didn't have no clue whatsoever.
I really knew nothing about Edgar Casey other that I knew the name.
I'm not totally you know, ill informed. I knew that there was an
American psychic named Edgar Casey, and I didn't learn that he had predicted a
chamber, which he called the Hall of Records of Atlantis. Uh. I
didn't know that until one of his sons, who's now deceased, called me
on the phone. Because Edgar Casey died long before me. One of his
sons literally called me on the phone at my office at Boston University and said,
I found the chamber that his father had predicted. Oh wasn't as wonderful
I had could. I had confirmed his predictions. And all I could think
is, oh, my god, this this is the last thing I need
is academic to be confirming some psychics predictions. Let me stop you real quickly.
Why were you not allowed to talk about Wait that the repair blocks?
Yeah, okay. So something that's very important to me as a geologist is
when they carved this sphinx, the body of the Sphinx, they had to
carve out huge blocks. We're talking not just tens well, we're talking tens
of tons, but in some cases fifty tons or more limestone blocks to remove
it from what's noos as Sphinx enclosure. And they put them in front and
slightly to the south to build what's known colloquially by the Egyptologists as the Sphinx
Temple and the Valley Temple. I say colloquially because we don't know what the
ancient Egyptians were really calling it them. And so you've got these huge temples.
They're very ruinous now made out of these limestone blocks, and the Sphinx's
head itself looks sort of reddish, but that's because it has more dolomite,
and it's more dolomitic limestone that it's a higher level. Also, the Sphinx's
face was painted red at various times. Yes, yeah, it was painted,
you know, in the New Kingdom times, et cetera. Apparently it
was painted with all kinds of gaudy colors, etc. I don't mean that
disrespectfully, but I think you know this, but a lot of people don't
realize that in ancient times, whether it's Greece or Egypt or Rome, etc.
What we think of his beautiful white statues and marbles and whatnot, they
were typically painted. They were painted very brightly, very gaily. You see
this still in some of the Egyptian temples where the paints have survived. But
going back to the Sphinx, so the head is the original head. It's
not resurfaced in the sense of having any repairs to it other than modern repairs.
There's modern cement on it underneath the headdress. That's all cemented in in
modern times. If you look at photographs from the nineteenth century, you'll see
the distinction. But the temples, the temples known as the Sphinx Temple and
Valley Temple where the limestone is contemporaneous with the carving of the body of the
Sphinx. So by my analysis, they go back to they have their origins
back at the end of the last I say, circle ten thousand BCE.
They were repaired, repurposed, refurbished by the Egyptians, the dynastic Egyptians in
Old Kingdom times with Aswan granite. So you can see this wonderful sort of
rose colored red Aswan granite that is repairing these temples. Now that those repairs
themselves are quite rudinous at this point, but they were repairing the temples.
And one of the strongest pieces of evidence that convinced me personally going into this
thirty plus years ago was when you look at those temples, you can as
a geologist, I could see that the temple surfaces, the walls of the
temple had been weathered by rain. They had been weathered back, and you
saw the features on a smaller scale on the weather temple walls, and then
they were refurbished with this Aswan granite Veneer and literally the Aswan Grand was beautifully
cut for the surface that shows, but the backsides that were up against the
weathered limestone. In some cases they took the trouble to cut the back to
fit the weathering. It would have been so much easier to just skim down
cut off the softer limestone weathered surface, because you're talking walls that are meter
or more thick, so there was no structural reason to keep the weathered surface.
But what I think they were looking at was for them a very sacred
holy temple site, whatever you want to call it, and they were trying
to keep as much of it as possible even as they restored it and refurbished
it. America, the same type of concept might be if you have a
home that belonged to Benjamin Franklin or George Washington or whatnot. You don't just
you know, strip away all the original woodwork, or just take a sand
blaster or you know whatever, you know, sander and sand down all the
floors and walls to make them nice and smooth. You keep as much original
as you can. And I think that's what they were doing, even though
it took a lot more energy. So to me, That's another very important
aspect of the evidence. That we're talking about a much much older structure when
it comes to the Sphinx enclosure, the Sphinx itself, the temples that are
associated with it, a much older structure that was being reused repurposed by later
Egyptians. And I say later Egyptians, because who were those earls people.
As far as I'm concerned, they were Egyptians of some form there in Egypt.
Robert, let me ask you do the Egyptology. Does the Egyptology community
see this updated wall in the Sphinx temple and comment about the earlier UH damage
and the age of the earlier surface. Some of them are now finally doing
that. What I found is that initially everyone wanted to deny. When I
say everyone, the Egyptologists universally went to deny everything I was saying. They
tried to wave their hands and you know, make the evidence go away.
I mean, it was sort of crazy what I've been through when I look
at in hindsight. But now they're starting to acknowledge it. For instance,
some Egyptologists are acknowledging that the head is a recarving. Their acknowledging just what
we were talking about that the U the Veneers, I'll call it veneers,
which you know, they're huge meter or more thick blocks in some cases.
But the granite is a later addition. Some of them are trying to backpedal
a little bit and say, well, okay, it's a later edition,
but it's New Kingdom versus Old Kingdom. Yet other Egyptologists have told me bluntly,
where you can still see some inscriptions on the so called Valley Temple,
the classic Old Kingdom inscriptions. I mean, you know, it's it's starting
to you know, it gets a little bit calm hus should I say it's
not parsimonious. I'm using that in a scientific sense. It's not parsimonious.
The whole concept of Ockham's razor, etc. Evidence says one thing, and
you're trying to keep your story straight and keep the story you've always had by
trying to manipulate that evidence in saying, well, it looks Old Kingdom,
but it's really New Kingdom, because that's what fits what voice believed. Yeah,
we're going to take a short commercial break to allow our sponsors to identify
themselves, and we will return shortly with my guest today, doctor Robert Schock
talking about the reuse, the repurposing of temples, artifacts, even the Great
Sphinx in dynastic Egypt. We'll be right back. My guess today is doctor
Robert Shock, famous for his redating of the Great Sphinx of the Giza Plateau
in Egypt, but he's also recognized the fact that a lot of temples,
a lot of statuary is also repurposed, and we're discussing this today in our
program. Do you think the issue is that because of their education, they
cannot perceive of a civilization earlier than the Old Kingdom? Oh? I think
that's absolutely the case. I went through classic academia, I mean college at
George Washington University, graduate school, culminating a PhD at Yale University. I
know what everyone was taught because I was taught the same thing. I was
taught very very bluntly as an undergraduate that the earliest civilizations go back to about
three thousand to four thousand BCE period. End of story. Before that,
people were hunters and gathers. They were just rooting around and scrambling to even
stay alive. They didn't build monumental structures, they didn't do any of this
crazy stuff, and no, I was told I remember being told when I
took archaeology classes, you only dig down so far if you're interested in ancient
civilization, because if you're going further than that, once you hit certain levels,
you know, from the fourth millennium, forget it. There's nothing more
to see if you're interested in ancient civilization. If you're starting to be interested
in primitive you know, it's troubling. You can go talking about it's very
troubling. It's troubling. And you know, when I was first taught talking
about this, I want to get this in now that you made me think
of it. When I was first talking about this, I was asked in
the early nineteen nineties, if you're right that there was some true civilization and
monumental structures and all this going back to ten thousand BCE or even seven thousand
BCE, where is there any other evidence in the world of having that same
level of sophistication. And honestly, there was none in the nineteen early nineteen
nineties when I first got involved with this. We now have sites like the
Beckley Tepe in southeastern Turkey that also goes back to approximately ten thousand BCE and
even earlier, back to then the last Ice Age. And no it's not
the Great Sphinx, but I contend it's equally sophisticated with megalithic structures beautifully carved
shows the same should we say, level of sophistication and civilization going back to
that early period. So yeah, we have to rethink what and how does
this do we have? Does somebody have to find a book that says we
go further back? Do we have to find artifacts? I mean, what
do you predict is going to have to be the change. It's not gonna
be soon. It's not gonna happen soon. No, no, we have
to wait for the older people to die off. And they say die off.
I'm talking academically, of course, you know basically have to die off.
They just have. Okay, said I interrupted you. I want you
to finish this thought. When you were drilling at the front of the Sphinx
paw and you found I think you also use ground penetrating radar. No,
no, no, no, we did not trail. We did not use
ground panetraying radar. We use seismic techniques. So what we did, which
is actually penetrates further than ground penetrating radar, et cetera. At least,
No, there's I want to go back and do more geophysics if I could
ever get permission. But what we did at the time, which I was
referring to, so let me just focus on that now, is we used
a sledgehammer on a steel plate, which the UND waves yeah, energy into
into the ground, and it penetrates down, reflects off of different layers,
reflects differently from cavities versus non cavities, et cetera, and then from that
data coming back, it's very similar to GPR, but it's using a different
you know, it's using sound essentially energy waves instead of radar, and then
we were able to model what's underneath the surface. It's the same type of
techniques that's used, uh for instance, for geophysical prospecting for oil fields,
that type of thing, except the difference is, if you really want to
penetrate far into the ground, you don't use a sledgehammer and a steel plate.
You set off explosion. Did you choose that technique better, Robert,
Did you choose that technique too? Okay, that was the best and I
actually was joking, But if the joke had taken. I wo've done it.
There's guards all around us. This is just illustrating the techniques. There's
guards all around us when we're doing it. We were using a hammer,
a steel hammer, yeah, a sledgehammer, a steel plate. What would
be another great energy source? Just shoot bullets into the ground as an energy
source, you know you could, it'd be like little explosions, because I
was just mentioning when you do it for you know, when you want to
go really deep like oil prospecting, you set off, you know, explosions
on explosions on the surface as an energy source. It's just we're using for
your energy source. Okay, the better the energy source that helps you refine
the data, etcetera. Of course they didn't want so, so the audious,
the obvious question after finding this room, why were you not allowed to
continue? And actually, uh, because we've had a civil engineer on this
program that is aware of this room and of tunnel systems in the Giza Plateau
through ground penetrating radar. My question to you is, Zahi Hawas was the
head of the Supreme Antiquities Department at that time. Why wouldn't they let you
go in there and go let's see what we find. Let's see what we
do. Actually, he hey, we're going so far back. He was
not actually ahead of it right at that time, he was on the plateau,
there were people above him, et cetera. But that's another long story.
But an answer to your question, doing non invasive geophysical studies is very
different than invasive geophysical, invasive, any types of studies, So we not
have permission. I understood where they were coming from, and I still understand
that, not that I always agree with them, but it's very different to
do invasive studies. Even drilling for a little you know, little pinholes type
camera whatever they call it, you that's invasive because if you've got a sealed
chamber, let's just say, we don't know, but if you've got a
totally sealed chamber and then you drill into it, all of a sudden you've
unsealed it, you could let contamination in that type of thing. So do
I think something should be done? Would I like to pursue things further?
Yes? But do I understand why they didn't just snap their fingers and say,
oh, let's go drill into it. Understand that also, and what
I'd like to do if anyone's listening out there is I would like to gather
the funds. I'm being one hundred percent serious now. Gather the funds,
gather the expertise, which is all doable. It's really just money. And
we're talking unfortunately a lot of money for the equipment for making the arrangements.
I know in Egypt, and I'm a one hundred percent agreement with this.
You want to bring in Egyptian folk. When I say Egyptian folk, I
mean Egyptian professor is Egyptian graduate students so they can learn techniques, et cetera.
You want to bring in expertise from outside the country. You want to
bring in equipment. And what I would love to do is to do more
in non invasive, non invasive where it doesn't damage anything, there's no risk
of any damage. To further define exactly where the chambers are, where the
tunnel system is. There's actually a collapse tunnel based on our analysis, running
essentially the length of the body of the Sphinx that goes then into the plateau
to the west of the Sphinx towards the second pyramid. But you can do
a lot more. I could do a lot more non invasively first, and
then one could have make some better decisions as to what to do invasively.
For instance, you could maybe drew into it with a very small drill where
you keep it how do I want to say it, You always keep it
so that nothing is escaping, nothing is entering. It's kind of like an
air lock. Yeah, like airlock. That's why I wanted to say,
like an airlock, that type of thing, and take all the proper precautions,
just like you do when you're going up into space. And you know,
maybe we find that the whole thing's already been contaminated and flooded with sewer
water, which is a really distinct possibility. But I wouldn't want to go
in there and damage it if that has not been the case. I rather
air on the side of caution. I think it needs to be done properly.
But then there's a whole politics of each and politics religious issues involved on
all sides, et cetera. And I mean that's a whole different thing again,
both scientific, egyptological and should we say geopolitical and religious issues involved.
So it's a very complex situation. And again I don't want to make light
of any of it. I understand that all the different sides of the spectrum
have their own should we say, concerns and agendas, et cetera. It's
it's a difficult situation. It's very different than going out west. And I
mean this seriously, just to use this crude analogy, you go out west
to someone's private land, and I'm appealing I'm trained as a geologist, geophysicists,
paleontologist. You go out to someone's private land, which I've done before,
you know, and you prospect for fossils and you see a fossil sticking
out of of out of the ground, and you realize that this is probably
part of a tar Rhinosaurus rex or something like that, and you just go
to the landowners say do I have permission to excavate this for you? And
they say, yeah, that sounds great, And it's not that type of
situation. Yeah, it's a lot more complex. I agree. I want
to continue on with our theme of repurposing, and do you feel comfortable stating
not only the sphinx being repurposed, but would you say, in your experience
as a researcher of ancient antiquity that the Egyptians regularly were repurposing items. Have
you found other examples? Yes, yes, I want to talk about this
article in a minute that you and Katie wrote, but I want to before
we begin that, I want you to give us another example, because I've
been there half a dozen times and I've seen it in temples, but we
want to take it. I want to see, I want to hear from
you on other specific you find it. I think on a regular I hate
to say it this way, regular basis in Egypt, that all kinds of
things have been repurposed. So I'll just give you a couple of examples.
At Sakkara, there's the step pyramid, the Zoso or Jojer pyramid of Sakara,
that some people claim as the earliest you know, stone structure whatever on
Earth, which is, in my opinion, not quite true, because the
Sphinx Temple and the Valley Temple are much older. But anyway, it's certainly
a magnificent old structure. But where I'm going with this is that underneath it
there's this a whole series of tunnels and whatnot and store rooms and every it
sure looks like they were storing away all kinds of earlier artifacts that go well
into pre dynastic or uh, you know, earlier than dynastic times, because
there's even earlier than what the Egyptologists called classically pre dynastic and beautifully made vases
and balls and whatnot. And you can see some of these in the museum,
the various Grand Egyptian Museum, I guess some of them will be in
and the old I'll call it the Old Cairo Museum. But my point is
that in some of these cases, some of the ones I've seen, you'll
see on them inscriptions and hieroglyphs which are so should we say crude relative to
the finesse and delicacy of the actual bulls. And I suspect that these are
later inscriptions on earlier structures. Or you go to at Scara again the Serapium
where you have the incredible oh yeah boxes which are so beautifully carved, and
then you see some of the inscriptions on the just a few, and it
almost looks like they took a nail or something and just scratched this inscription on.
It is totally incomparable with the design and the finesse I'll use that term,
and the beauty and artistry of the actual structure. You go to the
I don't know if they're still on display now, but in the Old Cairo
Museum, the pink building, the Classic Egyptian Museum caught my attention certainly because
I am into sphinxes, studying the great sphinx, a series of sphinx is
there so smaller sphinxes, but still you know, eight ten feet six feet
long or whatnot. And you'll see in some cases where one pharaoh carved his
cartusius and you can see the other pharaoh carved his cartousian top of it or
next to it, and another one on top of that, etc. Etc.
You go to Karnak, the temple, the Great Temple of Karnak,
and you can see how Ramesses the second it carved his cartouches into older structures.
You can see that they're not stylistically the same, they're more deeply sunk
in because of course they had to remove the old cartouche. So you see
this all over the place. You were mentioning before the work now that is
being done where eighteenth dynasty, for instance, coffins and masks and whatnot were
being reused. In the twenty first dynasty, of course, you had the
so called intermediate period in between when sort of things collapse. Sometimes people refer
to that as the Bronze Age catastrophe or collapse, very different than the catastrophe
at the end of the last Ice Age minor compared to the to the last
Ice Age, but where you had reuse and reuse again Teuton Common, I
think that's pretty well understood now. A lot of the stuff that was found
in Teuton Common's tomb was actually being repurposed and reused from other people. Some
people argue, well, because he died so early, they didn't have mine
to to get out. Now, what that's the thinking is that he died
so suddenly they had to use another relatives. But you know, I don't
think this is totally you know, surprising, should we say? But what
is surprising, and this is where Katie and I are coming from, is
that Katie first observed this, and this ties in with the article that you
saw on my website, and that people can give us the title again a
hypothesis regarding the ancient and intentional bearing of Egypt. Yes, so where we're
coming from, where we're coming from with intentional bearing bearer. I can't talk
now burying or burial of Egypt. Is that when you look at a Beckley
tech band mentioned Qebecley Teche before, which is very important to me because as
it was another good piece of corroborating evidence that we have very ancient, sophisticated
society culture. I contend true civilization ten thousand BCE to put it in round
numbers. When you look at that site and other sites associate with it,
for instance Carhan Teppi. These are all in southeastern Turkey near the Syrian border.
Those people at that time built these incredible sites, but there was a
catastrophe at the end of the Last I Sage ninety seven hundred BCE, and
we can see from the stratigraphy, from the geology, and I've looked at
this very carefully, and other people have looked at it carefully, although there's
some in the popular press who have contended is not correct, or historians who
contend it's not correct, But frankly, they're not geologists. They're not trained
to look for these things. They're not just covered over by wind and dust
and debris like a lot of archaeological a lot of archaeological sites are. They
were covered over intentionally, they were buried intentionally, I believe to preserve the
sites at kebecley Tepe, that's the classic place some of the pillars in the
circle's rings. Qebecley Tepe has rings of Megolithic beautifully carved stone monuments. What
do we want pillars, We'll call them pillars serve like Stonehenge, except gebecley
Tepe. They're beautifully carved. Some of them fell over during the tumultuous times
at the end of the last Ice Age, which another story again that was
caused by a solar outburst from our son. I talk about this all in
Forgotten Civilization and have radicals on my website. But there was a catastrophe at
that time. These people were struggling to survive. They were struggling, I
believe, to preserve something of their heritage, of their minds, and they
ended up erecting pillars again really quick and crudely, putting these rough sort of
walls between them to hold them up and to try and settle things down.
And then they intentionally buried these sites completely. And we find this in southeastern
Turkey going through Egypt on our some of our more recent trips to Egypt,
Katie and myself Katie who has a background very different than mine. I'm a
scientist, I'm a geologist, you physicist. She has an art and dance
background and visual arts, et cetera. She noticed that so many sites in
Egypt also look like they were intentionally buried, but in Egypt mud brick,
that they had mud brick. Let's talk about that for a minute, because
in the article Katie shows a very early picture of Karnak. We're massive stones
and yeah, and what was the purpose of doing that? Well, I
think what you're doing is you're protecting the sites. You're trying to keep something
to survive, especially if you have calamitous times that are caused by natural events
like a solar outburst. The ancient Egyptians themselves, i want to point out,
talked about zep Tepi, what they called zep Tepe, which was a
time long before their time. So they're talking about this five thousand years ago,
and they're talking about time thousands of years earlier, which other people might
translate as quote atlantis, that type of thing. And supposedly, according to
Plato, the Atlanti's legend comes from Egypt, when there was an advanced civilization,
there were temples, there was all kinds. You know, everything you
associate it with that, and that it was destroyed by natural catastrophes. And
that's what we have, I think very strong evidence of Gebecley Tepe and other
sites in Turkey, and I think we're now finding evidence of the same type
of thing in Egypt, which is not to and I want to be clear,
not to deny the deny. I can't talk, not to deny the
dynastic Egyptians of their their share of things. But they were reusing things,
they were inheriting from an earlier civilization. They were refurbishing, they were repurposing,
they were reappropriating, very similar to what we're talking about earlier in this
conversation with the origins of the Sphinx. The origins of a lot of these
things we are hypothesizing based on the evidence, go back to a much earlier
period. So you see this at Karnak, you see this with the Sphinx,
you see this in this syrion at abby Does in particular. That's why
the earliest sites for me, for me, why the earliest sites where I
was looking at this even before I knew Katie was uh, you know,
before Katie and I started talking about this. You see this at Edfu or
and Asna, you see it at Komombo, you see it at Dendra uh
half or yeah temp. So what would be the awara? Is a really
I want to talk about Hawara in a minute, so hold that thought.
But when we look at an ancient temple like Karnak or Half or at Dendera
that's had numerous cycles of civilization and then uh and then damage through either geological
or cosmic events, how do we tell what is the earliest phase? Is
there any way from a geological point of view? Can we tested because in
this uh? I mean, is the ground of such a shape or or
construction that we can tell that this is the earliest Or is it just because
of the megalithic builders? No, not just because of the megalithic builders.
You have to really look at all the evidence together. A lot of it
ties in with stratigraphy. Stratigraphy is basically looking at layers of rock and debris,
whether it's cultural debris or natural debris, et cetera, how it's built
up ac crude. But maybe illustrate example would be my own office where you
know, I get papers and books and letters and I put them a stack.
Well, no, the most recent stuff is on the top, the
older stuff is on the bottom, and you can start to sort that out
and you can correlate that together. And then of course we have various techniques
for direct dating, whether it's different radio isotopes, are luminescent stating that type
of thing. We look at stylistic differences. We can look at weathering.
So in some cases, what you'll get and we see this some sites where
you'll get structures or or portions of buildings which are deeply weathered in a road,
yet right next to them seems like a continuation of the building. But
that's because they were refurbishing it. They were reusing it again. Actually,
we talked about something like that for the Sphinx Temple and the Valley Temple.
Ye. So there's lots of different techniques that you can use to sore it
out. But is it as simple as saying all the big blocks are old
and the younger blocks are smaller. No, not necessarily that that's at my
point. That's okay, that's that's naive. But the other thing that you
can tie in, and this gets very important, and this gets to the
plateau and specifically is that at the end of the last ice Age, when
we start going back to that early period, there were these catastrophes. These
were initiated, I'm convinced by solar outburst. What's known as plasma. Plasma
is electrically charged particles what's the sun primarily hydrogen, but when you have it
at high temperatures, it breaks up into protons and electrons, both of which
are electrically charged. Protons are positive, electrons are negative, so you got
the protons electrons. The Sun way it undergoes outbursts like what's know as a
chronal mass ejection or solar particle event. Not to get into a bunch of
solar physics and astrophysics here, but stars do this on a periodic basis,
including our Sun, which is a star. And when you have that happen,
you can have essentially what would look like if you experienced it, and
we've not experienced this in modern times, huge lightning bolts hitting in some cases
down to ground level on the surface of the Earth, so you get things
like vitrification, which is essentially where the raw has been raised on the surface
because of this lightning. Think of electrical particles hitting the rock it melts the
surface of the rocks, in some cases just the first top few millimeters,
or they can penetrate much further depending on the intensity. And it melts,
it it recongeals, it forms a natural glass. This is vitrication, and
it doesn't look like pretty glass in most cases. It looks like scoria or
you know what you might get from a blast furnace or from refining ores heating
up to high temperature. But it's actually pretty diagnostic, and so in some
cases you can find rocks and structures at a site that have been subject to
this, which gives you a big clue right away. It goes back to
this very early period and we have evidence of this right on the Giza Plateau
where we have evidence of vitrication. We have ever evidence of where those Lichtenberg
patterns where when the electrical discharge or plasma discharge hits the surface, it goes
out dendritic branching pattern. It looks like Frankly, this is something Katie first
noticed. It looks like the pyramids themselves are set on top of the centers
or the foci of Lichtenberg patterns. It may be that the Giza plateau itself
is considered quote sacred or was considered quote sacred, because the Sun, which
was a deity of God effectively or the God during different periods, hit the
plateau, I mean literally touched down there. So this is another thing that
you want to look for. So on the Giza plateau, I found areas
where you have scoria, and you have these various evidences of this early period,
and then you have other structures built over it or round it, etc.
So again you can start getting back to the dating issue that you were
talking about. Interestingly too, the ancient Egyptians, they talked about the Sphinx
itself having been hit by lightning in a thunderbolt. This is right at the
inventory stella that. Yes, people say it's a late period inscription, which
it is, but it purports to go back to the time of at least
Cufu, builder of supposed builder of the Great Pyramid, supposedly before the Sphinx
was even thought about, and he was looking at the thunderbolt that had hit
the sphinx what they call the sphinx, or we call the Sphinx now.
So the Egyptians themselves seem to have acknowledged that this happened. We're going to
take a brief commercial break to allow our sponsors to identify themselves, and we
will return shortly with my guest today, doctor Robert Schock, talking about repurposing
ancient Egypt. Robert Shock is the author of Forgotten Civilization, the Revised an
expanded edition, and also an authority on the Sphinx, which resides on the
Giza Plateau in Egypt, and we are talking about repurposing that only the Sphinx,
but buildings, temples, artifacts, and likely a lot of objects that
we're not familiar with that we'll discover in the near future. I've heard rumors
that at like half of our temple, that main temple sits on an earlier
temple. Absolutely, but they won't do ground penetrating radar for some strange reason
to identify that because it'll throw the whole historical notion out the window. Yes,
exactly. So this is part of the problem, is throwing out historical
notions when you have a vested interest, your whole career is built on something,
or your whole facade, I should say the time, more than just
one person. When you've got a whole department built on a certain historical narrative.
It's pretty hard to throw that all out with no matter compelling the evidence
may be. And so that's not a scientific issue in my opinion. That's
more political, social, cultural. But it's so damning because Robert I was
just there and a few months ago we were at the Serrapiam and I spoke
to the local archaeologists and I said, why haven't you guys used lightdar Well
his answer was, what we don't want to use that? That was it.
Yeah, because they might find something that they don't want to acknowledge that
will upset their local apple cart or international apple cart, as it might be.
I mean, no, no, there's a lot of political social I
mean think about if you've built your career saying one thing or whatnot, do
you want to have to take it all back at the end or I would
think they would want to welcome new discoveries that maybe change the narrative. I
was very naive back in my younger days. I thought when I first talked
about the sphinxes origins going back thousands of years earlier, I really and I
mean this sincerely, and I evely thought that the egypt told you to say,
oh, this is wonderful. You're opening up so much more history for
us, because I never was denying to this day, I'm not denying the
dynastic Egyptians and everything they accomplish, more or less. I'm just saying they
built on incredible heritage. You know another cliche they they built on I don't
know, stood on the shoulders of giants or whatever. I think it was
came from Newton. But you know, I always thought would open up a
new avenues of research, and I still content contend contend that that. I
still contend that is the case. It's not destroying anything. It's not stealing
Egypt from the Egyptians I've been accused of by certain people. No, it's
just adding to the glory of Egypt in this case, or the glory of
humanity, or how far back humanity. Are you suggesting, Robert that your
revelations will call them, are not revelations in that they're channeled or I just
came out. No, No, there's scientific evidence. Yeah, scientific scientific
research is not welcomed, not always, not always. I mean, you
know, some people think I'm going to hell for what. Oh boy,
let's conclude our talk here. I want to finish up with a place that
you actually include in this article, Hawara, and this is the place that
Herodotus claim was had an underground yeah labyrinth. Yeah, talk a little bit
about what you discovered. And also this phenomenon known as the mud brick additions.
Yeah, Well, when you look at Howara, it's really interesting.
You go there and there's a so called mud brick pyramid of Hoara, which
you know, I've had the privilege of studying and climbing to the top of
which you know, I was with a Egyptologist who allowed me to do that.
You know. Normal, Wow, normally they don't do that. One
doesn't do that because actually it's a fairly unstable structure. But what you have
are all kinds of megalithic ruins there. It seems that it's really mud brick
covering over a much older structure I suspect. And then you have outside of
the pyramid itself what now looks like it's a huge expanse, a huge ground.
Just tried to describe it. It looks like it's served like an egg
cart because there's all these depressions and whatnot. And I haven't done it,
but others have done. Some GPR there ground pantran radar, and yeah,
there's structures underneath. And this matches as you mentioned what the Greeks and the
Romans talked about, that there's a huge labyrinth there potentially multi stories that contained
all kinds of information from extremely ancient times. I suspect this goes back to
what the ancient Egyptians called Zeptepe again to use the A word, what other
people referred to as Atlantis, what I, in a technical sense, referred
to as the Urian RN. That is an earlier cycle of civilization, one
that existed before our cycle of civilization, which I date our cycle of civilization
to the last five thousand or so years. But there was this earlier cycle
of civilization that ended at the end of the Last Ice Age ninety seven hundred
BC approximately, and the ancient Egyptians, ancient people actually around the world,
when you start looking at traditions, talk about these earlier cycles, whether you're
talking about the Yuga cycle or the Maya, talking about you know, early
what they called suns or cycles of civilization, each of which ended in catastrophe.
And this has always been dismissed classically by academics. As you know,
a bunch of nonsense, just mythology that doesn't have any real basis. But
I think that we may have the mother load in Egypt actually of evidence,
if we would just explore it and acknowledge it for what it is. That
yes, there was certainly an earlier cycle of civilization which were separated from by
what Katie and I call the solar induced dark Age. We were short solar
induced dark Age because you had this catastrophe at the end of the last Ice
Age wiped out civilization or civilations at that time. We went into basically a
dark age. Humanity went into a dark age for about six thousand years before
civilization re arose about five maybe six at the most thousand years ago. And
getting back to the sociology and politics, et cetera of it, lots of
people around the world, and I've found this even with should we say just
popular I don't know what I want to call non academics who I talked to.
They don't like the concept that we aren't the best and greatest thing that's
ever been on Earth. They don't like the concept. They just instinctually react
against it. That, oh, people twelve thousand years ago could have been
quite sophisticated. Also, they are serving doctrinated and what we'll call one way
progression that if it's older, it's not as good as us. If it's
even older, it's even worse. You know, it's even more primitive,
et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. John Anthony West who got me
started all this, and of course he's now passed away, the late John
Anthony West, he used to call the Church of Progress. Yeah, I
mean he picked his terms carefully there, because he basically was saying, it's
like a religion. It is a religion for some people, or our doctrine.
That's not to be questioned, that humanity has only progressed from primitive,
ugly, brutish old them to wonderful, sophisticated, technological us, and that
there's nothing the way around it that we haven't ever gone back, we haven't
ever devolved. It's always been a one way to use the term evolution for
better and better and bigger and bigger and more and more technology or whatever.
And honestly, yeah, I was in doctrinated that way, but when you
look at the real and so I don't think that holds up. It's not
to say that the ancient people twelve thousand years ago had iPhones and communication satellites
and whatnot. Maybe they were too smart to put their eggs in such a
basket, you know, But that doesn't mean there were a bunch of primitives
either, And they were brought down by a catastrophe and the sun, the
sun of solar outbursts, and the scary thing is and I'm not I hate
to have to say what I'm doing, gloom, dooming. I don't like
dooming, gloom. But realistically, we have a society now that is we'll
call it technologically sophisticated, based on the technology that's electricity and electronics, which
is incredibly vulnerable, more vulnerable, I think more. You know, we're
in worst shape in terms of a major catastrophe than people were twelve years ago
and it decimated them. I mean, we're we're really every day we're making
our our society more and more fragile, if you would, when it comes
to some kind of natural catastrophe, especially from the sun. What look at
what happens when you know, one one ship gets stuck in harbor and all
the supply chains get held up, and uh, you know, we have
a little solar outburst, and I say a little astrophysically, it could knock
out transformers and communication satellites and physical systems, and we've been in really bad
shape. And uh, you know we see that COVID. You know,
of course we all went through COVID, but look at when bylines went down
through COVID. We have just put ourselves in this situation as a collective civilization
globally where you know, the consequences will be catastrophic even from a fairly minor
solar outburst or other issue. What what is the effect on human biology?
Does it? Did it wipe out the is your belief that it wiped out
the humanity on the planet. Oh, during a major solar outburst, for
instance, what happens is because you have very high radiation levels on the surface
of Earth, you wipe probably wipe out the ozone layer, et cetera.
So the it's it's lethal enough. And this is based on good calculations by
physicists. I've known, uh that you could have a situation where radiation levels
were high enough on the surface of the Earth from the isotopes that form in
the atmosphere from wipe out the ozone layer. And uv et cetera, et
cetera, that large mammals could die within a few days to a week.
We humans are large mammals, and so there's a good evidence I believe that.
Yeah, populations died out in various places. How do you escape this?
It's very easy if you have access to caves. You can go caves
underground, and what we see at the end of the last Ice Age,
in fact, are people going underground into caves, carving areas into rock and
whatnot. Also megalithic structures basically rock above you. So if you're in a
cave or under a huge pyramid type structure, I'm not saying they necessarily the
pyramids themselves that will protect you from the worst of the effects. And it
comes and goes, so it's not like you have to be in there for
years. You can be in there and you come out, you go back
in et cetera, et cetera. You have things like the Cappadocia. The
underground cities of Cappadocia are Padokia, however you like to pronounce it in Anatolia.
And it's interesting that those seemed to go back. Those seem to go
back in my opinion to this very early period. Were they expanded, were
they reused, were they repurposed for other uses later once they exist? It
sure, but I think their origins go back to that early period. It's
even been suggested by Katie and myself and now other people too that things like
the Valley of the Kings and Queens in their tunnel systems, maybe those were
not originally just for tombs. Maybe they were at all, They were used
for other purposes and then they were repurposed as tombs because they would be perfect
for surviving major solar events. I do want to point out some people talk
about comments at the end of the last Ice Age. That's a totally different
subject, but the evidence for it is not there. All the evidence that's
been used to support comets actually fits a solar outburst much morecisely. And if
you're talking some of these caves and structures where people survived, they're not going
to protect you from commentary bombardment. They will protect you from radiation on the
surface. One last thing I just want to mention about that there have been
studies linguistic studies of the origins of the Indo European languages going back to the
end of the last Ice Age, and turns out that these studies independent of
anything I've done. These were published in Science, the journal Science, where
the top journals in the world, trace the origins of the Indo European languages
back to a pocket in Anatolia, the same area that apparently a pocket of
people survived there at the end of the last Ice Age and then they spread
out again once you know, they was over. So I think that's incredibly
solid, collaborating evidence from a totally different field of study that this is what
was happening. So I think that one of the lessons we really need to
take to heart is that now there's so much in the ancient world. When
we talk about the ancient world as the last five thousand years, you know,
let's say two thousand years to five thousand years ago for classical antiquity,
if I could use that term, so much at that time actually was being
reused and purposed from a much earlier period. They were learning from, they
were physically reusing from etc earlier period. And it can be complex in some
cases to sort out, oh, this structure looks Toolemaic, or this structure
looks New Kingdom. Sure, it does because they were using it at that
time, but that doesn't mean that's the origins of it. Yeah. And
this is the real problem I'm having is that they, the academics that are
studying these historical uh, these historical structures, are hard pressed to go beyond
a certain date. Yeah, exactly, exactly, even though they should know
better. Go to Karnak and you've got Alexander the Great leaving his mark there
and no one thinks that he built the whole thing. Yeah, but they
don't want to go back beyond a certain period. I still think it's gonna
have to be a major discovery of some kind, something that's like so astounding
that they can't help help me get into. Help me get into the Yeah,
help me get into the No, I'm serious, I'm serious. As
they said, well do it, go fund me, Robert, Well,
no, you can't do that. You can't do that. That's not going
to go over with a gypshow. They don't want to be told what to
do just because of it has to be financed through university. It has to
be financed through university. It has to go through all the proper channels.
I have all those contacts et cetera. I just need someone to give me
ten million dollars. When I say me, not me, No, I'm
being serious now, I'm not saying me. I should not have said it
that way. To donate to Boston University ten million dollars for this project,
and we could probably make progress because you know, it would be not me,
it would be a university, which is what's required, et cetera,
et cetera. I'm director of the Institute for the Study of the Origins of
Civilization at Boston University. But we are like many places. You know,
I need the funding. Put it together. I'll be happy to support it.
You got to put all the groundworkkay. If you know some big donors
that type of yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I'm serious, or
maybe someone listening to this. If they walk contact you or contact me.
If they contact you, please pass them on to me or contact me directly
through my website. That would be greater through Boston University. I want to
mention just this side note because I just stopped it. Cappadocia, for instance,
we were talking about the underground seas of Cappadocia and some people will go
there and they're to use the colloquial term. They're blown away by the churches
there, because there's beautiful Byzantine churches. They're beautifully decorated and whatnot. Okay,
so they're mere thousand years old or whatever. Yeah, they're beautiful and
I love them. But when you look at them, if you actually look
with a critical eye, and I've shown this to people, you can see
where they were being reused older structures, and you can see the layers of
paint, you know, several layers deep, and you can see where they
took an older structure and they were carving and recarving re So again, you
know, people reuse things, and you do that this day. Yeah,
amazing. Robert, always a pleasure, always in fraudt the program a plug.
Okay, we're gonna go through it. The first thing I want to
mention is that you're a keynote speaker at Sea Pack I October eighteenth to the
nineteenth of this year. We're a sponsor. Robert's talk is available on stream
media. We'll talk more about that later. And I also wanted to mention,
but maybe you have it already there, could I mention that I also
I will also be speaking at the Ancient Civilizations Conference, which is a Guya
production at Bold of Colorado. That is the seventeenth and eighteenth of August.
So seventeenth of eighteenth, eighteenth August Gaya, Boulder, Colorado. This is
all on my website under appearances seventeenth and eighteenth of August Ancient Civilized I'm looking
at my notes Ancient Civilizations Conference in Boulder, Colorado. Than Conference for Precession
Ancient Knowledge, which a seapack which you're sponsoring October eighteenth and nineteenth. That's
the eighteenth and nineteenth of October in Nevada City, California. I'm excy about
both of them, and I do want to say that, you know,
people can come to both because I always tailor different talks and you know things.
We also promote the fact that that seapack has very good streaming media.
They can see you live for if they can't make it out there. Okay,
let's see this new book that you and Katie have written. Give us
the title. Okay, so it was the the theme. Okay, can
you say that you can see it? Yeah, it's Audriana and the Ancient
Mysteries the Great Sphinx. It's the first in a series of books aimed at
young children, young people. I want to put that white children. But
it's not a baby book, as Katie likes to say. It's written my
wife Catherine, You Lyssie, Katie. It's illustrate by our friend Lisa M.
Perkins, who is an artist and a teacher. She teaches in California,
teaches art in California in the public schools, so she knows what she's
doing with that. And I'm the scientific consultant. And if you open it,
I think it's this is just random perce. Well, read the title.
What's the title of the book. The title is Audriana and the Ancient
Mysteries the Great Sphinx. So this covers much of actually what we were talking
about when it comes to the Sphinx, but put in a way to introduce
it to the young reader. Actually I'm not mentioned in the book by name,
except when you know about the creators that type of thing. Because what
we want is young children, which I think is good educationally to look at
things, but to question. So Audrianna questions, why does the sphinx look
this way if it's supposed to be only so old, et cetera, et
cetera. She learns all kinds of things about. She learnses about how the
sphinx is aligned to the equinoxies, she learns about water versus wind weathering.
She ends up traveling to Egypt with her grandfather to explore the mysteries for themselves.
And it's not I don't know if you can see some of that there.
This is all text here, So it's not like one of these baby
books that's just a few words, really meant to educate one person we know
said, you know, it could be used in AP classes for young readers,
that type of thing, advanced classes, events classes, And we've had
it. It's been it came out last month, and we've gotten really good
comments from people about it. In some cases they've really enjoyed reading it,
the adults reading it for themselves, but also with their children, with the
children in their lives, whether it's their grandchildren or their children, et cetera,
and be able to discuss these issues. To bring it up. And
I think this is a theme that ties in with things that you and I
have been talking about, Well, how do you get this message across?
How do you convince the public? And in many ways, yeah, in
science you have to convince the next generation. You have to get the next
generation thinking about these things. So I do point out that the way Katie
handled this is not to be dogmatic about anything, but really just raising issues,
raising questions. She raises Audriana little. Audriana raises questions, She questions
her teacher, why is such and such you know the case? So really,
for me, it's more than anything else to get people to think.
Okay, So very slowly, Robert tell people how they can get the book
because it's not on Amazon now, it's not an Amazon, not yet at
least, And the way they should get the book is they should go to
my website, which is Robert Shuck r O B E R T S cchoch
dot com. And on the home page they will see a button if they
scroll down and look for it, that will show the book they should link
or click on that. It will take them to my publications page and to
where this book is listed. And from there they can click on the link
and they will go to at the moment, Porter Square Books where they can
order a copy. Porter Square Books is a local bookstore in the Boston area.
It's actually in Cambridge, Massachusetts, and they are handling at the moment
copies of the book, so someone can order from them their big commercial bookstore.
So there's no problem with you know, them taking orders, as about
giving their credit card, that type of thing, and that's the best way.
So that's for domestic the US. We are working on international distribution at
the moment. Okay. And what is it retailing for. It is retailing
at Porter Square Books for twenty one to ninety five a copy, okay,
five, which, uh you know it's it's full color throughout, beautifully illustrated
and illustrated. Yeah, and we people have told us it's well worth it.
Yeah, you've gotten some good comments. We've got some very good comments.
Okay, congratulations to you and Katie on this new book, because we
do You're right, we do need the next generation to be thinking about our
past, to be more open to new ideas, and this book kind of
leads the way with some great ideas too. Yeah. It's a book I
would have loved when I was a child, And I've had other adults tell
me that they would have loved to have had a book like this when they
were children. Fantastic. I hated reading those stupid books that I books to
read to learn to read exactly, Robert, A pleasure is always, and
I'm looking forward to catching up looking at your website and getting all the details.
But thanks for joining me. It was a real pleasure. Oh it's
a pleasure always. Thank you very much, really appreciate it. So what
are some of the takeaways from that interview. One of the ones that came
for me is the fact that it really does look like the various dynasties inherited
a lot of their technology, a lot of their science and physics, and
they came upon the Great Pyramid and were awestruck and later made it a tomb.
They had no clue how it worked. They likely gutted the interior.
If you've ever been to the Great Pyramid, when you go in, there's
these what I call machine housings. You know how a part of a machine
sits on a facet or a kind of a support system that's a housing repositories
for devices. In other words, they held probably resonators, They held all
kinds of technology that was later removed. And so when we go into the
Great Hall, the king or the Queen's chamber, it's gutted. There's nothing
in there but raw stone and so that was a machine. And Chris Dunn
is tuning into it in his latest book. He's always kind of been fascinated
by one of many Robert Baval, Robert Shock Hancock, of course, and
you know Manu Says Today has written recently, we've had doctor Says to Day
on the program who has written about the pyramid and his belief that, you
know, the Egyptologists have it wrong. But there's something to this repurposing and
it's shedding such a light on just who these pharaohs were. It's almost like
there was a book, a reference book left for them from the previous civilization
that died out. We just don't know. We have so level, so
little evidence of this civilization, you know, and that's the big problem.
This is Mark Larners like, you know, where are the potshards from those
previous people? And it's going to probably be the work of a technologist creating
some kind of device that scans and can detect information imbued in the hieroglyphs imbued
in the buildings placed in a staces kind of like waiting for the right tech
to come around to free it. It kind of sounds kind of spacey,
kind of high tech. But I think that's where we're going to be,
And it may not be in the next few decades. It may have to
wait, but I feel like it's coming around because you know, right now
the big finds in Egypt are you know, and this is Hawaas and these
other national geo They expect us to be happy and surprised that, you know,
the discovery of some coffins in Sakara, that's the latest. You know,
why don't they do some scanning and show us the underground canals in the
Giza Plateau? Well, why were they carved like that? You know,
it's really it's really dummy down. All the latest research, all the latest
references, all the latest reveals of Egypt are all kind of dummy down.
Coffins, some old artifacts, a new crypt is found. You know,
they're all about finding coffins. Who cares? Really, who cares? You
know, get your act together, get some tech and scan the valleys,
scan the plateau. They're gonna be blown away by what they find. There's
you know, remember we had William Brown on the program and he's telling us
that he's seen the entrance way to underground tunnel systems in the Giza, Plateau
Hawara. Robert Schock talked about that. It's funny because I didn't realize he
had been there and had done some research. So there's a lot of evidence
for a sophisticated pre Dynastic. People were just not allowed to see it.
The only way you see it is if you go over there with your camera,
find some people like Muhammed Imbrahem. You know, the old, the
old story of the Dynastics being such great rulers. It's really looking pretty sad.
It's looking like they just barely got by. It's funny, you know.
And they built an army and conquered the north and south of Cairo.
But that doesn't mean anything. It doesn't mean a lot. They do have
a lot of years behind and the New, the Old, the Middle and
the and the New Kingdom. That's many thousands of years. So they developed.
But how did they develop? Did they developed based on an earlier system
of civilization? This is a huge question that I have now and when we
we we have these guests who are talking about vast amounts of repurposing, well,
hell, they must have had some keys to the door. They must
have had some literature, They must have had some data in the form of
hieroglyphs that we're not capturing right now, where we don't have anymore. That
is the lead to allow them to civilize, allow them to prosper. Flat
out, there's no way. If you guys have ever been to the Giza
plateau and you walk among these pyramids, there's no way any Pharaoh's built that
thing. You know, blocks that are two point five tons each come on,
raising them three hundred feet in the air. There's no way. They
didn't have the tech, you know. And anytime Egyptologist tries to replicate that
building the pyramid mid Pyramids, they fail miserably. They can't explain it,
but they do. They find a they find an odd symbol or a cartouche
of Sun Pharaoh, and there you go. That's the answer to the question.
So anyhow, always a blast to have Robert Shock on the program.
And take a look at the Facebook page. I am going to post the
information on this new book for kids, and actually it looked really really good.
I have he sent me, and also his wife Katie sent me some
photographs and some information on this in this new book that's just been released,
which is kind of cool. Okay, that's it for this program, and
I think my guest today, doctor Robert Shock, coming to us from the
East coast of the United States. As always, a team of Guilt tour
Mark Foster and everyone who makes this thing happen. You guys rock all right,
take care of you well, and we will talk to you next time.