WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.640 --> 00:00:03.960 This is Doctor Wendy Walsh and you're listening to kf I AM six forty, 2 00:00:04.080 --> 00:00:13.039 the Doctor Wendy Walsh Show on demand on the iHeartRadio app. Doctor Doctor, 3 00:00:13.519 --> 00:00:21.719 you need the news. I gotta AKFI AM six forty. You have Doctor 4 00:00:21.719 --> 00:00:25.320 Wendy Walsh with you. That is the Doctor Wendy Walsh Show. I know 5 00:00:25.760 --> 00:00:28.320 I'm here at six o'clock. Right, You're like, what what? What? 6 00:00:28.320 --> 00:00:33.280 What? Wasn't there a tease earlier saying Doctor Wendy Walsh after dark at 7 00:00:33.320 --> 00:00:37.640 seven pm? Yes, there was. We would call that a technical difficulty. 8 00:00:38.039 --> 00:00:43.320 The truth is I am here for a very special three hour Doctor Wendy 9 00:00:43.320 --> 00:00:49.119 Walsh Show. Yeah, Kyla, we have producer Christina in the room. 10 00:00:49.479 --> 00:00:55.280 We have Stephen on the board, Stephan or Stefan Stephen, the fush where'd 11 00:00:55.320 --> 00:01:00.039 that come from? Nickname for him? Tim Conwee, jr Ah the Foosh, 12 00:01:00.079 --> 00:01:03.159 Mark Ronner. You're in the newsroom as always. You're here. You're 13 00:01:03.159 --> 00:01:07.840 gonna be blushing, Okay, do your worst. You're gonna be talking a 14 00:01:07.879 --> 00:01:11.079 lot about female orgasm today. Before I get going, I want to remind 15 00:01:11.120 --> 00:01:14.879 everybody I have a PhD in clinical psychology. I've been obsessed with relationships, 16 00:01:15.040 --> 00:01:19.079 written a few books on relationships. My dissertation was on attachment. I'm a 17 00:01:19.120 --> 00:01:23.239 psychology professor, I'm not a therapist, so think of me as a journalist, 18 00:01:23.319 --> 00:01:26.439 like, don't shoot the messenger when you hear what I report from the 19 00:01:26.480 --> 00:01:30.079 world of science. Okay, I didn't make this up. It all comes 20 00:01:30.120 --> 00:01:34.959 from data. And I will start by saying, gentlemen, there are a 21 00:01:34.000 --> 00:01:37.799 lot of things you don't know about the women's body, and we might even 22 00:01:37.840 --> 00:01:41.200 teach you something tonight and ladies, there are a lot of things you may 23 00:01:41.239 --> 00:01:45.560 not know about your own body too, And tonight's doctor Wendy Wells show may 24 00:01:45.640 --> 00:01:49.280 rock your world. I'm going to start off before I bring on a very 25 00:01:49.319 --> 00:01:53.319 special guest from the Kinsey Institute, the world famous Kinsey Institute. I just 26 00:01:53.400 --> 00:01:57.840 want to break down some of the science on how men and women have different 27 00:01:59.359 --> 00:02:01.920 sexual psychologies. Now, I want to start by saying that when I was 28 00:02:01.959 --> 00:02:06.200 a young woman and I was very sexually active at a good time, let's 29 00:02:06.239 --> 00:02:10.719 just say, men would sometimes say, well, what's wrong with you if 30 00:02:10.719 --> 00:02:15.719 you don't orgasm? Or they talk about other women as being frigid. They 31 00:02:15.759 --> 00:02:21.159 love to use those words. And now we're at a place in the world 32 00:02:21.520 --> 00:02:24.120 where we've gotten men out of science. You know they're still there. We've 33 00:02:24.159 --> 00:02:30.240 added women to science doing research and discovered a few things. So for interests. 34 00:02:30.280 --> 00:02:36.879 For example, men and women have different sexual desire. There's so much 35 00:02:36.960 --> 00:02:42.199 science behind this. Compared with women, men think about sex more often, 36 00:02:42.520 --> 00:02:47.360 du they report more frequent sexual fantasies, they report more feelings of desire, 37 00:02:49.000 --> 00:02:53.120 and across the entire lifespan every age, men rate the strength of their own 38 00:02:53.159 --> 00:02:59.000 sex drive higher than their female partners, so they're more likely to say, 39 00:02:59.159 --> 00:03:02.680 Now, when I'm quoting research, you've always got to remember it sounds like 40 00:03:02.719 --> 00:03:06.840 I'm generalizing, and I hear you on social media gung your guess and Rabi 41 00:03:06.879 --> 00:03:10.080 hiding. You know, for every statistic, there's going to be a little 42 00:03:10.080 --> 00:03:14.439 anomaly. For instance, I got married. I was a child bride at 43 00:03:14.439 --> 00:03:16.719 the age of twenty. I think I got married from my Catholic mother because 44 00:03:16.719 --> 00:03:20.280 you didn't like that I was shacking up with my college boyfriend. But anyway, 45 00:03:20.960 --> 00:03:23.439 in that relationship, I actually had a higher sex drive. But for 46 00:03:23.680 --> 00:03:27.599 most of the other ones it was the other way around, and there could 47 00:03:27.599 --> 00:03:30.800 have been some psychological things going on to Okay, we won't get into that. 48 00:03:30.919 --> 00:03:37.280 Keep everybody safe here. Men are more visual, women are more relational. 49 00:03:37.840 --> 00:03:42.680 Men would rather watch porn. We would rather read a harlequin romance. 50 00:03:43.039 --> 00:03:46.120 And let me tell you. When I was like fifteen years old, I 51 00:03:46.159 --> 00:03:47.240 had mono, and back then, when you had mono, they kept you 52 00:03:47.319 --> 00:03:51.479 home in the house for six weeks and the school would send tutors or whatever 53 00:03:51.520 --> 00:03:53.639 from time to time to make sure you're doing your work. I felt fine, 54 00:03:53.759 --> 00:03:58.680 but for some reason I tested positive from mono, and so some old 55 00:03:58.759 --> 00:04:00.639 lady in the neighborhood, old she was probably fifty friend of my mom's, 56 00:04:01.159 --> 00:04:04.280 came over with a bag of harlequin romances and said, here, honey, 57 00:04:04.560 --> 00:04:09.159 is something reading materials? Since you're home for six weeks. I probably read 58 00:04:09.159 --> 00:04:12.719 a hundred of them. They became so addictive. I had so many orgasms. 59 00:04:12.800 --> 00:04:15.920 Everybody was at work, I was alone in the house and as long 60 00:04:15.959 --> 00:04:20.000 as there's a relationship. Now, later in life, I had guy friends 61 00:04:20.040 --> 00:04:23.240 would say, hey, you want to watch Born with me? And I'd 62 00:04:23.399 --> 00:04:26.600 try to watch it, and it was so boring to me because I'm like, 63 00:04:26.639 --> 00:04:30.120 where's the story, Like how did they meet? What's their background? 64 00:04:30.319 --> 00:04:33.560 Do they love each other? Does she have feelings for him? Anyway? 65 00:04:33.600 --> 00:04:39.079 It didn't. It never worked for me. There's research to support that I'm 66 00:04:39.120 --> 00:04:44.959 normal. Women's sexual fantasies are more likely than men's to involve a familiar partner 67 00:04:45.399 --> 00:04:51.120 and include affection and even commitment. In contrast, oh, we're not surprised 68 00:04:51.160 --> 00:04:57.639 here. Men's fantasies are more likely to involve strangers, anonymous partners, multiple 69 00:04:57.720 --> 00:05:02.920 partners, or focus on specific acts or specific sex organs. Oh, you 70 00:05:02.959 --> 00:05:05.639 guys are just so simple, you know, honestly, I love you, 71 00:05:05.639 --> 00:05:09.319 man, I love you so much. But now that I understand you, 72 00:05:09.680 --> 00:05:13.639 that old adage that our grandmother said that men are basically a penis and a 73 00:05:13.680 --> 00:05:15.680 stomach, and you can get to their heart one or two ways. Of 74 00:05:15.720 --> 00:05:18.040 course. Now I'm at the AGI's cook for my Julio. You know, 75 00:05:18.079 --> 00:05:20.399 he's so happy. As long as I picked him a pie last week, 76 00:05:20.439 --> 00:05:25.920 strawberry Rubard pie. He was very happy. Okay, I did some other 77 00:05:25.920 --> 00:05:30.360 stuff too. All right, let's talk about frequency and the difference between the 78 00:05:30.399 --> 00:05:36.079 sexes. When heterosexual dating and married couples disagree about sexual frequency, it's usually 79 00:05:36.560 --> 00:05:41.240 the man who wants it more. Usually again, you're always going to find 80 00:05:41.600 --> 00:05:46.839 an exception to the rule. Now, how what's the actual frequency, not 81 00:05:46.959 --> 00:05:50.399 just desire, but how often do they actually do it. Researchers think that 82 00:05:50.560 --> 00:05:55.680 most married couples come to a compromise between the desires of the man and the 83 00:05:55.720 --> 00:05:59.879 desires of the woman, and one of the ways that they try to figure 84 00:05:59.879 --> 00:06:03.360 the out as they also studied gay and lesbian relationships and guess what they've found 85 00:06:03.600 --> 00:06:10.000 sexual frequency by partners of the same gender, and lesbian's report having less sex, 86 00:06:10.399 --> 00:06:13.240 Gay men more sex. You see, you put two men together, 87 00:06:13.279 --> 00:06:15.360 they're gonna be having more sex. Two women together less sex. Put a 88 00:06:15.360 --> 00:06:18.879 man and a woman together somewhere in between, all right, that's what happens. 89 00:06:19.759 --> 00:06:23.800 Also, women appear to be more willing than men to forego sex, 90 00:06:23.879 --> 00:06:28.199 to adhere to maybe religious vows of celibacy or whatever, or just you go 91 00:06:28.240 --> 00:06:30.279 off the market for a year. I did that once. I was in 92 00:06:30.279 --> 00:06:32.360 my thirties. I was dating so many bad boys, so many playboys, 93 00:06:32.519 --> 00:06:36.319 and I thought, I just need to like heal, so I'm gonna like 94 00:06:38.560 --> 00:06:42.279 just not have sex for a year, And I did. But then I 95 00:06:42.360 --> 00:06:45.800 learned you don't heal that way. You avoid and then you step right back 96 00:06:45.800 --> 00:06:48.000 out into traffic and get hit by a bus. Another Playboy game rolling on 97 00:06:48.120 --> 00:06:50.959 up right. In fact, I was watching what did they have for the 98 00:06:51.079 --> 00:06:55.399 NBA? Was the draft thing or something? Yeah, they picked the young 99 00:06:55.439 --> 00:06:57.639 men who are good players, and they told them what teams they were gonna 100 00:06:57.639 --> 00:06:59.319 be on, what their jobs were going to be. Yeah, okay, 101 00:06:59.319 --> 00:07:01.759 And so I'm like watching in the background at some of these older news news 102 00:07:01.839 --> 00:07:06.040 sports newscasters, I'm like, I recognize that Faith. I think I slept 103 00:07:06.040 --> 00:07:12.240 with him. I did. Oh, there, he is crazy, all 104 00:07:12.319 --> 00:07:17.680 right. Continuing the differences between male and female sexuality masturbation, men are more 105 00:07:17.720 --> 00:07:21.879 likely than women to masturbate. They start masturbating at an earlier age. Here's 106 00:07:21.920 --> 00:07:26.000 my favorite story. If you ever took your kid to Ten Street Pediatrics, 107 00:07:26.000 --> 00:07:28.720 do you ever remember Nurse Kitty there? She Oh, all the women took 108 00:07:28.720 --> 00:07:30.360 their kids there to Nurse Kitty. She was fabulous. We all loved her. 109 00:07:30.480 --> 00:07:33.480 She helped the breastfeeding and everything. So a friend of mine brought her 110 00:07:33.720 --> 00:07:39.560 ten month old boy there and she said, he's grabbing at his penis so 111 00:07:39.680 --> 00:07:43.839 much that it's chafed, Like it's literally red and chafed. And sore, 112 00:07:44.319 --> 00:07:46.920 and Nurse Kitty gave her some cream and said, don't you worry, honey, 113 00:07:47.120 --> 00:07:51.319 this is just a phase. It only lasts seven decades. Okay. 114 00:07:55.720 --> 00:08:01.480 Relationships. Women tend to emphasize committed relationships as a context for sexuality more than 115 00:08:01.519 --> 00:08:05.639 men do, all supported by research. I'm not making this up. Also, 116 00:08:05.720 --> 00:08:13.639 women are more likely to romanticize sexual desire and longing to be emotional intimate. 117 00:08:13.439 --> 00:08:18.720 To be emotionally intimate is part of their sexual desire, And these are 118 00:08:18.720 --> 00:08:24.800 really common gender differences same sex relationships. Just like heterosexual women, lesbians tend 119 00:08:24.839 --> 00:08:30.879 to have less permissive attitudes towards casual sex and sex outside of a primary relationship. 120 00:08:31.360 --> 00:08:33.399 And gay men are more likely to say, Okay, it's okay if 121 00:08:33.399 --> 00:08:35.480 you have another partner, it's fine. I get it. It's like they 122 00:08:35.559 --> 00:08:41.399 understand that for men, sometimes sex and emotions are a separate event. Now 123 00:08:41.440 --> 00:08:43.799 here's the most interesting thing about male and female sexuality, and there's been lots 124 00:08:43.840 --> 00:08:48.440 of research on this. Female sexuality is more plastic. No, that doesn't 125 00:08:48.480 --> 00:08:54.000 mean we look like a barbie naked. We're not plastic. But basically, 126 00:08:54.039 --> 00:08:58.759 plasticity means the ability to be flexible and change. So men's sexuality, whatever 127 00:08:58.759 --> 00:09:03.879 it is as gay straight by is fairly hardwired across the lifespan. Women are 128 00:09:03.879 --> 00:09:09.399 a little more flexible. In fact, Evolutionary psychologists say one of the reasons 129 00:09:09.799 --> 00:09:16.000 why our culture is currently very accepting of and condoning same sex relationships with women 130 00:09:16.480 --> 00:09:20.519 is because we have an oversupply of successful women in our mating marketplace. And 131 00:09:20.679 --> 00:09:26.720 ladies, I know you you would rather date another successful woman than an unsuccessful 132 00:09:26.720 --> 00:09:28.960 man. Sorry, guys, and so a lot of guys, I know 133 00:09:30.039 --> 00:09:33.000 it's a thing, all right. When we come back, I have a 134 00:09:33.000 --> 00:09:37.679 researcher from the Kinsey Institute on the line who actually, through her research, 135 00:09:39.000 --> 00:09:46.080 discovered the truth about the female orgasm. You're listening to Doctor Wendy Walsh on 136 00:09:46.240 --> 00:09:52.360 demand from kf I am six forty. You've got Doctor Wendy Walsh with you. 137 00:09:52.440 --> 00:09:54.200 This is the Doctor Wendy Walsh Show. Now I'm blushing with that song, 138 00:09:54.279 --> 00:09:58.039 producer, Kayla, was that Beyonce? That was India Iri, Oh, 139 00:09:58.080 --> 00:10:00.879 India Irie. But they are both amazing. They both have a lot 140 00:10:00.919 --> 00:10:05.799 of orgasms in their music. I think that's what she was describing in those 141 00:10:05.879 --> 00:10:11.399 lyrics. I think that was appropriate there is so much new research on the 142 00:10:11.519 --> 00:10:16.000 female orgasm, but it is disturbing to me that it has not spread around 143 00:10:16.039 --> 00:10:20.519 the masses. And this is my job to tell everybody what the scientists are 144 00:10:20.600 --> 00:10:24.399 trying for everyone to know. But you know, they don't get interviewed by 145 00:10:24.840 --> 00:10:26.919 you know, sixty minutes in Glamor magazine, the only doctor Wendy Welsh. 146 00:10:28.000 --> 00:10:33.399 Otherwise you got to subscribe to the scientific journals. My guest is doctor Elizabeth 147 00:10:33.440 --> 00:10:37.480 Lloyd. She's a philosopher of biology. Okay, that's so cool, I'm 148 00:10:37.519 --> 00:10:41.120 like fangirling. She is a faculty scholar at the Kinsey Institute for Research on 149 00:10:41.159 --> 00:10:46.600 Sex, Gender and Reproduction at Indiana University. But back in two thousand and 150 00:10:46.600 --> 00:10:52.399 five she caused an enormous cultural stir when she published a book based on her 151 00:10:52.440 --> 00:10:58.159 research on female sexuality called The Case of the Female Orgasm. Wait, bias 152 00:10:58.360 --> 00:11:03.240 in the Sciences of Evolution. Let me tell you this book was such a 153 00:11:03.279 --> 00:11:09.120 cultural phenomenon that even Saturday Night Live did a piece on it, And of 154 00:11:09.159 --> 00:11:13.039 course we have with us tonight doctor Calvin Zuko, who caused quite a controversy 155 00:11:13.120 --> 00:11:18.320 with his theory of the myth of the female orgasm. Doctor Zuko. That's 156 00:11:18.440 --> 00:11:24.240 right, Charlie. There's no such a thing as a female orgasm. Women 157 00:11:24.440 --> 00:11:30.200 don't have orgasms. This will all be in my new book entitled four Play 158 00:11:30.320 --> 00:11:37.840 or just Playing Stalling. The female orgasm does not exist. Let's face it. 159 00:11:37.120 --> 00:11:41.879 I've been with a lot of women and not one of them has had 160 00:11:41.919 --> 00:11:48.519 an orgasm. Welcome, doctor Elizabeth Lloyd from the Kinsey Institute. How are 161 00:11:48.519 --> 00:11:54.159 you. Oh great, that's a wonderful introduction. I had forgotten about that. 162 00:11:54.799 --> 00:11:58.360 You are not doctor Calvin Zuko, that's for sure. And we will 163 00:11:58.440 --> 00:12:03.960 say that women do have orgasms. Let's be clear about that. But there's 164 00:12:03.000 --> 00:12:07.679 a lot of misconceptions about orgasms. So let's start. I want to talk 165 00:12:07.679 --> 00:12:11.120 to you for a while. So are you comfortable? Are you sitting down? 166 00:12:11.360 --> 00:12:13.759 We have a lot to talk about, girlfriend, Okay, yeah, 167 00:12:13.919 --> 00:12:18.440 sure, sure. We're going to start with the theories on female orgasm that 168 00:12:18.600 --> 00:12:22.639 existed a long time ago, and many people still believe some of them. 169 00:12:22.639 --> 00:12:26.840 And let's start with things that I even learned in graduate school that Sigmund Freud, 170 00:12:28.399 --> 00:12:31.919 the grandfather of psychotherapy, believe that there are two kinds of orgasms, 171 00:12:31.960 --> 00:12:37.159 a clitoral orgasm and a vaginal orgasm. And he used to call the ones 172 00:12:37.200 --> 00:12:41.200 with the glutors the immature orgasm, and the other one the mature one. 173 00:12:43.000 --> 00:12:48.279 What's the truth, doctor Lloyd? Oh yeah, well, this was a 174 00:12:48.320 --> 00:12:56.559 tragic mistake that women paid and paid and paid for it for over a century. 175 00:12:54.840 --> 00:13:01.679 There is there may be a variety of type of orgasm, depending on 176 00:13:01.840 --> 00:13:09.559 where in the body the reflex initiates it. Maybe deep in a vagina, 177 00:13:09.879 --> 00:13:16.600 in a cervical region, and maybe from inside the vaginal column, and maybe 178 00:13:18.080 --> 00:13:22.759 mostly from the outside or the inside of the inside part of the clitters or 179 00:13:22.759 --> 00:13:28.919 the outside part of the glitters. It could be almost anywhere. And there's 180 00:13:28.039 --> 00:13:33.840 five different routes to have an orgasm, and it could be any combination of 181 00:13:33.879 --> 00:13:37.039 those. There aren't There aren't just two types. There are at least five 182 00:13:37.080 --> 00:13:43.960 types probably, and those in combination. So and one isn't immature and another 183 00:13:45.039 --> 00:13:48.200 mature? Is it? Oh? Dear God? Well, he was under 184 00:13:48.559 --> 00:14:00.480 He had a theory that in order to understand orgasm female orgasm evolution narrowly, 185 00:14:01.200 --> 00:14:07.120 it had to be an adaptation. It had to evolve to contribute to uh 186 00:14:07.360 --> 00:14:11.320 female reproductive success. And in order for that to work, it had to 187 00:14:11.399 --> 00:14:18.960 contribute to um reproductive sex, that is, sexual intercourse, and that meant 188 00:14:18.039 --> 00:14:26.759 that it had to happen during sexual intercourse. Um happened, Yeah, yeah, 189 00:14:26.799 --> 00:14:30.039 and so he said it had to be. In other words, the 190 00:14:31.080 --> 00:14:33.960 of course was to have babies. So that we're going to get into all 191 00:14:35.000 --> 00:14:39.159 the h some of the other theories. What about the G spot does it 192 00:14:39.200 --> 00:14:45.039 exist? Well? Well, uh, in some women there is a sensitive 193 00:14:45.080 --> 00:14:52.159 region in um front part of the the vagina that um is very sensitive to 194 00:14:52.159 --> 00:14:56.840 touch and pressure. That is called the G spot um by some people. 195 00:14:58.039 --> 00:15:01.679 And yeah, it exists in some women, but not in all women, 196 00:15:01.720 --> 00:15:05.799 and not even in fact likely in most women. Um. There you go. 197 00:15:05.960 --> 00:15:09.759 So it's just a few lucky women. Okay, So what about the 198 00:15:09.799 --> 00:15:16.840 myth of orgasm frequency. Who's actually having orgasms as much men women? Well, 199 00:15:18.679 --> 00:15:26.039 men have more orgasms than women do in the context of sexual interactions, 200 00:15:26.120 --> 00:15:33.080 in other words, partners tex, especially if they're especially if they're heterosexual. 201 00:15:33.120 --> 00:15:37.600 In the lesbian context, So the lesbians, they're giving a heterosexuals the men 202 00:15:37.720 --> 00:15:46.120 that run for their money. You hear that, ladies, Because lesbian women 203 00:15:46.240 --> 00:15:52.039 understand anatomy because they have the same anatomy. Right, Yeah, that's that's 204 00:15:52.080 --> 00:15:54.840 probably the reason. The other reason is probably because they think it's only fair 205 00:15:54.879 --> 00:16:00.320 to take current Oh we're so fair, aren't we. Okay, let's talk 206 00:16:00.320 --> 00:16:03.120 about some of those reproductive theories. It used to be thought that the female 207 00:16:03.240 --> 00:16:11.960 orgasm was designed to push the egg down. Uh yeah, um, the 208 00:16:14.279 --> 00:16:19.919 I don't know as much about that theory. The the idea that the contractions 209 00:16:21.039 --> 00:16:27.639 of the of the um, the the area the ovary, we're going to 210 00:16:27.799 --> 00:16:36.879 eventually um lead to many millennia later, many many hundreds of thousands of years 211 00:16:36.960 --> 00:16:41.600 later, millions of years later to the female orgasm. That's what a theory 212 00:16:41.639 --> 00:16:47.240 that's being pursued today. Um. I don't there's some evidence for it, 213 00:16:47.279 --> 00:16:49.159 and I don't know whether it's true or not. We just don't know yet. 214 00:16:49.240 --> 00:16:52.639 There there hasn't been enough evidence. Well, we have to go to 215 00:16:52.639 --> 00:16:55.399 a break. But when we come back, I want to talk about your 216 00:16:55.519 --> 00:17:02.440 research and the real reason for female orgasm. You're listening to Doctor Wendy Walsh 217 00:17:02.480 --> 00:17:07.440 on demand from KFI amzix forty. This is the Doctor Wendy Walsh Show. 218 00:17:08.079 --> 00:17:11.839 We are talking about the female orgasm. My guest, one of my favorite 219 00:17:11.839 --> 00:17:15.880 friends of the show, Doctor Elizabeth Lloyd, a philosopher of biology a faculty 220 00:17:15.960 --> 00:17:21.759 scholar at the Kinsey Institute for Research in Sex, Gender, and Reproduction at 221 00:17:21.799 --> 00:17:26.920 Indiana University. Welcome back, doctor Lloyd. Before we get into your research 222 00:17:26.000 --> 00:17:30.599 on orgasm, let me go through a couple myths that are still out there. 223 00:17:30.640 --> 00:17:36.920 So you say that female orgasm, there's not a lot of research to 224 00:17:36.960 --> 00:17:41.119 show that it pushes the egg down. But I've also heard a myth that 225 00:17:41.200 --> 00:17:44.640 the point of the female orgasm is to suck the sperm up. Have you 226 00:17:44.680 --> 00:17:48.839 heard that one? Oh? Yes, Well, that actually goes back to 227 00:17:48.880 --> 00:17:55.599 the ancient Greeks. It's a very old idea. It's hundreds I mean hundreds 228 00:17:55.640 --> 00:18:00.319 and hundreds of years old, thousands of years old, and it's not there's 229 00:18:00.359 --> 00:18:03.599 never been any evidence for it. There's never been any solid evidence for it 230 00:18:04.319 --> 00:18:14.839 offered and um it's been raked over the colds as far as the proffered evidence 231 00:18:14.920 --> 00:18:18.839 and um shown to be absolutely hopeless. I mean, one of the sets 232 00:18:18.839 --> 00:18:25.319 of evidences offered for it is about oxytocin. You you, I'm sure know 233 00:18:25.400 --> 00:18:33.400 about the hormone oxytote hormone, the love hormarm and orgasm does really talk totocin, 234 00:18:34.000 --> 00:18:41.079 and so it was postulated that oxytocin relief led to the contraction of the 235 00:18:41.200 --> 00:18:47.880 uterus, which led to the uterus sucking up the firm and sucking it all 236 00:18:47.920 --> 00:18:52.079 the way to the to the all the way up the felopian tubes. And 237 00:18:52.559 --> 00:18:56.440 the trouble is that when they presented this evidence, they didn't note that Number 238 00:18:56.480 --> 00:19:03.880 One, the women that they were following tracking these these eggs in or these 239 00:19:04.200 --> 00:19:12.160 spermen, were unconscious rather than orgasmic. Absolutely Stone called dead to the world. 240 00:19:12.240 --> 00:19:18.599 Number two, there was a huge problem with the experiment because they weren't 241 00:19:18.640 --> 00:19:26.160 having their or own orgasms with natural oxytocin release. The scientists had to inject 242 00:19:26.160 --> 00:19:30.559 oxytocin. Oh my goodness, all right, we're gonna actually talk in a 243 00:19:30.559 --> 00:19:34.960 little bit about this anti scientific bias that you exposed in your book, The 244 00:19:36.000 --> 00:19:40.200 Case for the Female Orgasm. One last theory that's I think a myth, 245 00:19:40.400 --> 00:19:45.640 but I was taught it even in graduate school that because of this oxytocin release, 246 00:19:45.720 --> 00:19:48.559 it's supposed to create a relaxation effect in women, so they would lie 247 00:19:48.640 --> 00:19:52.799 still and the sperm wouldn't have to deal with gravity. Have you heard that 248 00:19:52.799 --> 00:19:56.359 one? Yes? Yes. Yes. It's also known as the poleax theory, 249 00:19:56.440 --> 00:20:03.200 which I name I always loved U. Yeah. Yeah. The trouble 250 00:20:03.400 --> 00:20:07.920 is that the evidence shows and this is actually reviewed and share highs marvelous book, 251 00:20:07.960 --> 00:20:11.759 which turned out to with the test of time, to be basically almost 252 00:20:11.839 --> 00:20:18.160 purely right. The women don't fall asleep after orgasm. I mean women can 253 00:20:18.200 --> 00:20:22.200 tell you that it's men will fall asleep after organs exactly. And I am 254 00:20:22.279 --> 00:20:29.200 up taking a shower women at the today, I'm drinking water, I'm fixing 255 00:20:29.200 --> 00:20:32.480 myself a snack. I am not going to sleep, right. Have a 256 00:20:32.559 --> 00:20:36.640 friend of mine like to tap dance in the kitchen after she had an orgasm? 257 00:20:37.799 --> 00:20:41.640 It's true. And and so this is just not true. It's not 258 00:20:41.759 --> 00:20:45.400 it's it's a generalization they made from men to women. And this is what 259 00:20:45.440 --> 00:20:49.240 it means to say that the science is male centered. Right, And we're 260 00:20:49.240 --> 00:20:52.160 going to get to that, but before we do, let's talk about your 261 00:20:52.200 --> 00:20:57.279 research and your result. Before you give us the results, can you tell 262 00:20:57.319 --> 00:21:00.680 me how you got the idea in the first place to do this research, 263 00:21:00.960 --> 00:21:08.000 Like, why did the study of female orgasm matter to you? Well, 264 00:21:08.519 --> 00:21:12.920 um, I mean I had followed the study of female a female sexuality, 265 00:21:14.000 --> 00:21:17.759 like any good feminist. But actually it was because my a good friend of 266 00:21:17.799 --> 00:21:22.079 mine and I were having a little too few too many dacories in the summer 267 00:21:22.160 --> 00:21:27.720 heat and in Princeton in grad school, and and she was trying to convince 268 00:21:27.759 --> 00:21:33.079 me to go out with older men because they had they were better in bed. 269 00:21:33.119 --> 00:21:37.400 And she said, well, what is the evolutionary function of orgasm? 270 00:21:37.440 --> 00:21:38.720 Anyway? And I said, I don't know, but I'll go look it 271 00:21:38.839 --> 00:21:45.119 up, and so I did. I went to the library and Princeton, 272 00:21:45.160 --> 00:21:48.640 I looked it up in a card catalog back in those days, and um, 273 00:21:49.039 --> 00:21:52.519 I trucked some things down and I could not believe what I found. 274 00:21:53.160 --> 00:21:56.079 Yeah, no one, and no one had questioned it at that point. 275 00:21:56.559 --> 00:22:02.200 So, um, what did you act, truly study to try to come 276 00:22:02.279 --> 00:22:04.839 up with your theory? Were you counting number of babies compared to number four 277 00:22:06.000 --> 00:22:12.400 orgasms? Well, I was just comparing the established evidence that people had about 278 00:22:12.920 --> 00:22:22.599 experimental and observational evidence about orgasm from anybody's expert study to the assumptions that were 279 00:22:22.640 --> 00:22:26.759 made in the evolutionary explanations that were offered. In other words, I was 280 00:22:26.799 --> 00:22:33.119 looking at the scientific evidence compared to what the explanations were. In otherwards, 281 00:22:33.119 --> 00:22:37.160 I was just testing them in an ordinary scientific play. Oh yeah, doing 282 00:22:37.160 --> 00:22:41.759 real science. Okay, so let's talk about your results. The real reason 283 00:22:41.920 --> 00:22:49.839 for female orgasm is well, the evidence shows more and more and more favor 284 00:22:51.079 --> 00:22:55.400 to the view that I favored all along, which is that it's actually an 285 00:22:55.400 --> 00:23:03.279 evolutionary bonus that comes along with the fact that may orgasms. They're selected because 286 00:23:03.319 --> 00:23:10.119 it's very beeficial for the men to have orgasms with ejaculation. It makes them 287 00:23:10.119 --> 00:23:14.759 feel good and they go out and have more ejaculations, which helps their reproduction. 288 00:23:15.359 --> 00:23:19.119 And so we share their male we share their body plan, basic body 289 00:23:19.119 --> 00:23:26.279 plan of having the orgasmictitious laid down, and we basically get them for free, 290 00:23:26.640 --> 00:23:30.599 sort of a vestidial kind of piece of anatomy, like like a male 291 00:23:30.720 --> 00:23:33.680 nipple. Males have nipples. They don't breastfeed as far as I know, 292 00:23:33.839 --> 00:23:37.599 right, Yes, yes, it's it's a lot like the male nipple. 293 00:23:37.720 --> 00:23:41.880 Is exactly like the male nipple. And and we have I mean, men 294 00:23:41.960 --> 00:23:45.079 have nipples because women have them, and women have orgasms because men have them. 295 00:23:45.599 --> 00:23:51.559 Fascinating, So we want to pull women off the guilt train, because 296 00:23:51.759 --> 00:23:56.200 not all women orgasm and that's okay and it's natural. What does your research 297 00:23:56.240 --> 00:23:59.319 tell you about who gets to have this bonus and who doesn't. What's the 298 00:23:59.319 --> 00:24:04.599 difference in an out of me? Well, um, we find um that 299 00:24:04.720 --> 00:24:08.319 they're well. First of all, the women who don't have orgasm at all, 300 00:24:10.359 --> 00:24:17.720 many of them turn out there there we go. Yeah, okay, 301 00:24:18.119 --> 00:24:26.200 so um uh and um. The but the big difference between women who do 302 00:24:26.559 --> 00:24:32.200 have orgasm with intercourse the way before I'd wanted, and the women who do 303 00:24:32.279 --> 00:24:37.960 not have orgasm then, of course, namely most women UM on a regular 304 00:24:37.000 --> 00:24:45.599 basis, um, is that it is simply the anatomy of the actual genitals, 305 00:24:45.599 --> 00:24:51.279 which is that the closer the clitterati is to the opening to the vagina, 306 00:24:51.519 --> 00:24:53.759 the more likely it is that they will be one of the few women 307 00:24:53.880 --> 00:25:00.759 that and I mean four to fifteen percent of women who have vaginal orgasms. 308 00:25:00.799 --> 00:25:06.319 I love it. We have to who reliably have orgasm with the inner coourse 309 00:25:06.720 --> 00:25:10.720 without assistance from either hands or vibebrators. Yes, I love it. Okay, 310 00:25:10.720 --> 00:25:12.400 when we come back, doctor Elizabeth Lloyd, I want to continue this 311 00:25:12.440 --> 00:25:19.000 conversation as well. Let's talk about the anti scientific bias that you encountered. 312 00:25:19.640 --> 00:25:26.720 You're listening to Doctor Wendy Walsh on demand from kf I AM six forty. 313 00:25:26.759 --> 00:25:30.759 This is the Doctor Wendy Walsh Show. We are talking female orgasm with one 314 00:25:30.799 --> 00:25:36.799 of the world's preeminent researchers on female orgasm, a philosopher of biology, Doctor 315 00:25:36.799 --> 00:25:41.920 Elizabeth Lloyd, is a faculty scholar at the Kinsey Institute for Research in Sex, 316 00:25:41.039 --> 00:25:45.720 Gender, and Reproduction at Indiana University. Okay, doctor Lloyd, before 317 00:25:45.759 --> 00:25:49.920 we get into bias and science, I want to talk about the fact that 318 00:25:51.000 --> 00:25:55.920 you've discovered that orgasm is really about anatomy. It's a vestigial thing like a 319 00:25:56.000 --> 00:25:59.759 male nipple. Some women have it, some women don't. What percentage of 320 00:25:59.759 --> 00:26:06.960 wh we'll never have an orgasm in their life for physiological reasons, Well, 321 00:26:07.000 --> 00:26:11.960 we don't actually know that because we can't really do experiments on people, but 322 00:26:11.079 --> 00:26:17.720 it's something between we think five to ten percent. Perhaps so five to ten 323 00:26:17.759 --> 00:26:22.480 percent may never orgasm, four to fifteen percent may have an orgasm vaginally or 324 00:26:22.599 --> 00:26:27.160 during intercourse in some way without an additional hand or help in some way. 325 00:26:27.759 --> 00:26:33.799 So you know, for years women have thought that they were supposed to be 326 00:26:33.839 --> 00:26:37.799 like men, and it caused many women to fake orgasms. What do you 327 00:26:37.839 --> 00:26:44.119 think of that? Well, yeah, I mean it's understandable, and it's 328 00:26:44.160 --> 00:26:49.400 something that made it very hard to get an honest number about orgasm rate with 329 00:26:49.480 --> 00:26:53.599 intercourse because women have been shamed about this for so long. They lie about 330 00:26:53.640 --> 00:27:00.400 it, and so do their partners because of the widespread sexual scre it's like 331 00:27:00.440 --> 00:27:03.519 the one you're mentioning. It teaches how to conduct their sexual encounters and try 332 00:27:03.559 --> 00:27:10.039 to follow that that Freudian script that you mentioned, and the idea that you 333 00:27:10.119 --> 00:27:14.880 have to have a vaginal orgasm in order to be quote normal exactly. I 334 00:27:14.880 --> 00:27:17.640 mean we all thought that. I thought that when I was young, and 335 00:27:17.799 --> 00:27:21.400 men, of course keep the myths up because they say what's wrong with you, 336 00:27:21.519 --> 00:27:26.079 etc. And so it can cause feelings of inadequacy. But also the 337 00:27:26.119 --> 00:27:33.279 world of psychology diagnosed women who didn't have orgasms, right, it became a 338 00:27:33.319 --> 00:27:41.119 diagnosis. Oh yes, Indeed, the very definition or of sexual dysfunction quote 339 00:27:41.920 --> 00:27:48.680 was that women didn't have orgasm with unassisted intercourse. That means no hands, 340 00:27:48.720 --> 00:27:52.519 no vibrator assist on the intercourse here, that's correct, terrible, yes, 341 00:27:52.680 --> 00:27:59.319 and that only changed extremely recently. Oh my goodness, I mean they've taught 342 00:27:59.359 --> 00:28:03.480 us that when I'm in graduate school. Yeah, your book is called The 343 00:28:03.559 --> 00:28:07.720 Case of the Female Orgasm Bias in the Science of Evolution, And in your 344 00:28:07.759 --> 00:28:12.119 book you looked at thirty years of studies that were designed to prove that women's 345 00:28:12.240 --> 00:28:18.400 orgasms evolved only to make us better at reproducing, and then you knocked them 346 00:28:18.440 --> 00:28:22.319 down one at a time for different reasons. Three reasons, mainly either it 347 00:28:22.359 --> 00:28:26.640 was bad data, bogus assumptions, or they had a fatal bias. Let's 348 00:28:26.680 --> 00:28:33.599 explain this to everybody. What makes data bad? Well, it can, 349 00:28:33.920 --> 00:28:40.480 it can be inappropriate, like the data that they used from those women in 350 00:28:40.519 --> 00:28:47.799 the oxytocin studies about the up stuck that those data were inappropriate because real women 351 00:28:48.440 --> 00:28:53.480 that the oxytocin they injected into the unconscious women was sixty times the highest recorded 352 00:28:55.039 --> 00:29:02.680 level of orgasm induced oxytocin in real women. So so they basically researchers put 353 00:29:02.720 --> 00:29:07.720 women under anesthetic, then they injected them with oxytocin, and then they gave 354 00:29:07.759 --> 00:29:11.920 them an orgasis the normal ye. No, no, they never gave them 355 00:29:11.960 --> 00:29:15.559 an orgasm. No, they just simply injected them with sixty times the normal 356 00:29:15.680 --> 00:29:23.480 level of oxytocin that they would have with the maximum level of orgasm induced oxytocin 357 00:29:23.960 --> 00:29:27.880 in order to get the upsucking effect, which is what they were looking for. 358 00:29:29.880 --> 00:29:33.440 So they did, and they then said, hey, guess what orgasm 359 00:29:33.480 --> 00:29:37.240 causes the upsucking effect. That is lousy data. That is lousy data. 360 00:29:37.440 --> 00:29:42.240 And let's not forget bias. It was mostly men who did this research. 361 00:29:42.359 --> 00:29:48.759 What kinds of bias did you discover the most? Well, that probably the 362 00:29:48.759 --> 00:29:56.200 biggest bias was simply that they thought that whenever intercourse occurred, orgasm occurc female 363 00:29:56.319 --> 00:30:00.960 orgasm. Yeah, they just assumed that they had whole series like, for 364 00:30:02.039 --> 00:30:07.359 example, the pair bonding series. Oh, they were like eleven different series 365 00:30:07.400 --> 00:30:11.759 about how the pair bond is good for you, and frequent intercourse is good 366 00:30:11.799 --> 00:30:15.640 for the pair bond, and of course frequent intercourse gave orgasms to both the 367 00:30:15.680 --> 00:30:21.440 men and the women equally, and so therefore that's why female orgasm evolved. 368 00:30:21.440 --> 00:30:26.480 Well, that doesn't work unless female orgasm actually occurs every time you have frequent 369 00:30:26.519 --> 00:30:32.799 intercourse with sing dinging. No, it doesn't. No. My favorite discovery 370 00:30:32.920 --> 00:30:36.720 was that if they said, if female orgasm is good for reproductive reproduction, 371 00:30:37.000 --> 00:30:40.240 then the more women orgasm the more children they would have. And there's no 372 00:30:40.279 --> 00:30:45.839 correlation at all. No, that's right, no correlation whatsoever. It's crazy. 373 00:30:45.920 --> 00:30:48.160 Well, thank you so much for being with us, doctor Elizabeth Lloyd. 374 00:30:48.200 --> 00:30:53.559 I encourage everybody to get your book of the two thousand and five books, 375 00:30:53.559 --> 00:30:57.680 The Case of the Female Orgasm, because everyone needs to learn about this, 376 00:30:57.799 --> 00:31:02.839 men and women. And my favorite thing that I'm going to say is 377 00:31:02.880 --> 00:31:08.079 my takeaway from our conversation today is that heterosexual men better pay attention because it 378 00:31:08.119 --> 00:31:15.440 looks like lesbian women are having and giving more orgasms. They're beating them. 379 00:31:15.440 --> 00:31:18.480 Thank you so much for being with us. When we come back, I 380 00:31:18.559 --> 00:31:25.799 want to talk about the new HBO series The Idol, clearly a male lens 381 00:31:25.839 --> 00:31:30.079 on female sexuality. You are listening to the Doctor Wendy Walls Show and KFI 382 00:31:30.160 --> 00:31:34.920 AM six forty. We're live everywhere on the iHeartRadio app. You've been listening 383 00:31:34.920 --> 00:31:38.000 to Doctor Wendy Walls. You can always hear us live on kf I AM 384 00:31:38.039 --> 00:31:42.480 six forty from seven to nine pm on Sunday and anytime on demand on the 385 00:31:42.519 --> 00:31:44.559 iHeartRadio app.