You're listening to the Mind over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas.
I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now
trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other
victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway
murders and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with
Kristin Dilley. My name is Kristin Dilley. I'm a writer, a researcher,
a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social media
manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner in
crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind of a Murder. I'm Kristin Dilley
and I'm Bill Thomas, and we're joined today by former FBI profiler Jim FitzGeralds
fitz to his friends and doctor Raymond are joining us to talk about their new
podcast, Cold Red Fits and Ray Thank you for joining us. Person.
I glad to be back and thank you for having us on. Thanks Kristen,
and you too, Bill. Of course. Oh of course, though
we don't want to forget about you. And as I recalled, just before
we started, Ray was bucking to be our favorite profiler and pushing fits out
of the lead spot for our favorite FBI profiler. How did I do?
You're doing great so far? Yeah? Yeah, self praise is better than
none, Ray, that's what my dad, Dad, you should tell me.
Keep thinking you're the best. I'm very fragile. Take it easy on
me. I can see that about you, all right, spoken like long
time partners. I would say, it's pretty clear that the two of you
know each other. But go ahead and formalize it for our audience. When
did you start working together? And would you call this a friendship or a
partnership or what would you call this? Ray wanted me start because you mentioned
it the other night on our show. When I was in Philly as an
agent, I was rolling down the street in my vehicle and I saw this
guy who was homeless, and I'm just all right, all right, I'm
just kidding. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. First time I ever
met Fitz, I was sitting on a bank rappy squad in Philadelphia and a
lead came in from New York. I the lead there was a couple of
additional questions I had about the lead, and I gave a call up to
the agent of New York, James Fitzgerald, and we started talking, and
then fitz wind up going down in the unit, and then we talked and
formed a friendship and it's lasted ever since, so it's more than thirty years.
He's like family to me. He's were very close and I do appreciate
that. Ray. And yeah, and then you were an nc ABC coordinator,
National Center for the Analysis, a violent Crime coordinator, which means he
had special training and behavior profiling, but he was in the field. And
back then, in the early days of the profiling Unit, it go went
by different names. Back then, I won't bore your listeners and viewers all
that stuff, but we'll just call it the profiling unit. The profilers are
basically assigned geographically, and I figured, if I'm from Philadelphia, let me
just keep the home stay. And I basically had New England down I think
through Jersey and Delaware, so any case that happened in that region which would
need help from a profiler, behaviorists whatever. Of course, now I'm doing
more forensic linguistic work. After the unibomb case anywhere in Philly, and that's
a big division up to State College and parts of South Jersey. Ray'd be
the one that would give me a call. And we worked a number of
cases early on, and we solved between Arthur Beaumar serial killer. Ray.
We helped solve that and the Center City rapist. We certainly played a role
in that being saved. So we had some I was gonna say good luck,
but we had some good detectives working with us, and we did our
best to fill in the behavioral missing pieces and both those cases came together,
and of course a bunch of other ones since then. And yes, so
professionally we've been together for a while and personally the same time too, And
we'll save some of those stories for maybe you're nice time podcast guys after dark?
Yes, after dark, Oh Bell, that sounds like a pretty great
idea, A mind of her murder after Dark? I like it. That
sounds great, Hey, great ideas. I think we're going to steal that
if you don't mind go for it. And then, but your podcast is
Cold Red, and so how far along are you with Cold Red? I'd
say we're about seven or eight episodes at this point. The first few we
just done just Ray and I, which is not a bad combination. And
we had our first guest the other night. Are exactly have an executive producer
the sound producer, and you want to talk about missing and child abductions,
things like that, and Ray and I both worked those cases. We both
can talk the talk, but we both collectively figured let's let's bring someone in
who really knows what they're talking about. So Ray, why don't you tell
him about our first guest ever? And I think he really hit a home
run. That was a good friend of mine, and Jim also knows him.
Name was Kevin McShane and he was part of the CART team. So
when you say KART, what does that mean? What does that acrona mean?
It's the Child Abduction Response Deployment Team, So it's cr DT. But
you hear KRT, think CRT, And what happens is he was a member,
one of the original members of that team that kind of formed in the
early two thousands, and he would be deployed predominantly. He was a member
of a regional team that handled the northeast from Maine down to Virginia. But
there's times when agents are away, or they're involved in case works where he
would be deployed all over the United States. Usually they're on scene within the
first if there's locally, usually there's an agent within the first few hours,
because time is your enemy in these cases, especially when you have a missing
child. He brought a lot of things in the table for us. He
explained things very well. I think our listeners were great. They were very
fortunate to have someone like that to be able to discuss that. Whose idea
was it for you guys to team up and have this pod? This is
clearly a match made in heaven between the two of you, considering all the
experience that you have in your friendship. Who stepped forward first and said,
hey, let's have a pod. I'm going to start off ray a few
years ago, and we haven't talked about this in a while, but I
think you know where I'm going. I'm good friends with a very popular sports
radio sports show host in Philadelphia named Angelo Cataldi. He actually just retired a
few years ago. He wanted to see the Eagles go to the Super Bowl
one more time. They didn't win, of course, but so he retired.
But a few years before that we got friendly and he read my books.
He was very encouraging. I actually thank him in my first book,
A Journey to the Center of the Mind, my memoir series. And we
started talking. I said, Angelo, I think there's room out there for
a radio show where we talk true crime. And I said, you work
for a station, You've got some pull there. What do you think I
had this, buddy, ray Car, I think the two of us could
really we could get out there and we could start off right away. Present
cases, pass cases, anything like that. These are Fitze always called me,
Fitzy, that's a great idea. Let me talk to my people.
And Ray I think I called you, and I think within two weeks or
so, we had an interview in a radio station twelve ten in Philadelphia,
in downtown Philly. We met there one afternoon around one or two o'clock and
we sat down with this I don't know, probably thirty five forty year old
producer, and quite frankly, we started arguing. We started arguing from the
beginning. You argued fits. I didn't argue at all. I was a
pastmaker. There's good cop, bad cop, and I guess I was the
bad cop that day. But basically we sat down and we said, hey,
we're ready to go, and this guy starts asking us like technical questions
about you know, what kind of equipment you would need, and we were
going to come into a studio. This is before people were working from their
homes and you know what it's like to do a talk shit how much work?
I said, yeah, I do, and we're willing to put the
work into it. Ray and I were big cases together, twenty four forty
eight hours in a row and in person or on phone whatever. I said,
we can do this. Give us a good producer and once a week,
two hours, three hours, twice a week, we can do this.
And you and the guys, no, you can't. You don't know
how hard there is to be a radio talk show host. I said,
I'm telling you we can do this. We're FBI retired, and we know
how to testify, we know how to talk to people. I give present
take, and basically the one guy just wound up slamming his book and said,
yeah, you don't call us, we'll call you. And we walked
out the door and there are people going by on their little motor scooters.
Remember I forget the guy's name. That was one of the sports hosts and
that we walked up the door. I called my friend Angelo and said,
it didn't go that well. He's there yet, don't worry about it.
Let me see Fitz see what else I can do. And I said,
you know what, all this podcast stuff is coming on the board now.
Maybe maybe eventually that'll be the direction will go. And quite frankly, I
sat back and waited for the right team to come to us, and basically
and Ray was a part of this and that they can into I said,
hey, guys, you're the talent quote unquote, and we'll put everything together,
the marketing and the admin stop and of course the technical stuff. And
about six weeks ago we wasn't Ray the night of the Nashville Students, or
maybe a couple of nights after that, and that was our first or second
episode and we've been going out of it ever since. So right, I
try to do this with Terrestrial I guess the radio they call that. And
we wound up barguing with the guy we didn't get the job, we failed
the audition. But when our podcast is as the thousands of downloads a week
and our guy maybe saying, well, why didn't I hire them? Back
then? That was back in twenty fifteen, believe it or not, that
you were just retired. I think the summer of two fifteen. Every time
in fourteen, so the summer of two fifteen when that came in, and
Jim is right. He took offense that Jim believed that this wasn't a big
deal. And he says, I've been doing this for twenty years, and
I'm telling you by all means, this is a big deal. And I
said, I don't think that's what Jim means. He just means it.
But to everything already went down to drain by that point. So we just
figured, all right, no worries Jim, let's look for a different direction.
And Jim's right. A lot of things came and went, and finally
they came to us and they had a nice proposal and we agreed, let's
see where it goes. Let's see where it goes. Fitch. You had
done a fair amount of podcasting with Jim Clementi and others on Real Crime Profile
Ray. Had you also done guest appearances on other true crime podcasts. Yes,
I was on Jim Clemente's podcast, not as often as Jim, but
I was on there. I was on a couple other ones after I wrote
a book, like things started to come to Patrician in reference to that,
And that's another case that Jim and I work, But I was more intimately
involved in that book in that case, and it seemed to be a good
story. So I wrote a book and it drawed a lot of attention,
media attention. It still is. I just tell us the title. It's
called thirty Years on the Run, the Hunt for the most prolific bank robber
in American history. Wow, and Ray caught him. It's a book of
a happy ending. It is. It is. It is a happy ending.
He's believe it or not. He's actually out of prison. Now that's
how long this thing. He got seventeen and a half years. It's happening
back in two thousand and two. So he got out in late two thousand
and seventeen. He's out of prison. And I tried to and maybe one
of these days Jim will get a chance to. Jim and I actually interviewed
him and he did on tape, and so we have about a two and
a half hour tape of him live while he was incarcerated, and Jim and
I used that as a training tape for other agencies looking at bank robbers because
he was unique. Here's a guy that he was not your typical bank robber.
He began robbing banks in nineteen seventy three and was arrested in two thousand
and two. Wow, that's a long period of time. And the funny
thing bat it is when we first started looking at it, we were only
under the oppression that he started robbing banks in nineteen eighty seven. So my
first interview with him and said, why don't you He goes, what do
you want? What do you want me to start? And say, why
don't you start at the beginning? He says, and my first robbery in
nineteen seventy three, I went, that was my first o ship moment.
Wow, don't I wasn't ready for that. And I said, no,
why don't we start when you were a little kid, and how you brought
up? Just to save myself because I wasn't prepared. But here's a guy
that graduator from Villanova would a degree in electric engineering, went into the military
Special Forces, but he didn't win as an officer, which he could have.
He went as a non com. He came out and went back to
the University of Penn got a master's degree in systems engineering, and then went
on to Penn State working on a PhD in statistics. So he was very
accomplished and very intelligent, but he never worked at day in his life.
His job was robbing banks the entire thirties. It seems like such a disconnect
though, this guy with multiple degrees, he's clearly highly intelligent. Why the
heck would he go down the road of being a bank robber? I could
tell you that, but then you'd have to buy the book. So we
have to buy thirty Years on the Run in order and everything about a story.
I'd be more than happy to come back, and I don't want to
take up all the time here. I'd be more than happy to come back
and talk about that at another time with both both you and Christinville. That's
not fascinating. Love that it is a great story, and I was glad
I help. I ran some interference with Ray, but to his credit,
it was him and his fellow agents in the Philly division that really put the
case together. In fact, you were pretty close Ray, and then nine
to eleven happened, And how to put everything on hold for? Was it
a year even give or take eight months, about five months five months.
Anyways, Jim so again eventually was made whatever and Ray can get more into
that. But we worked out to do a behavioral a post conviction behavioral interview,
and we did, in fact recorded. We brought an FBI Academy videographer
with us and the whole sound thing set up, and I guess what do
we bring him over to Philadelphia Division? Ray? We yep on a subpoena
of some sort and out of prison and that we interviewed him for about three
or four hours. And a fascinating guy. And I done that with a
few people in my life, even in retirement. With the bank robbers and
other sexual assault type people. It's frustrating party he wants to jump over the
desk and strangle them. Not so much Carl though the bank robber, because
he was a polite bank robber. He actually did shoot definitely one person,
Ray too maybe and maybe do we have do we know for actually three but
just would take a step back talk about jumping over the desk. I had
to stopped him from that guy. At twelve ten. Jim did go over
the desk after that guy and I had to grab him, just kidd and
he didn't do that. There was, believe it or not, there was
One was a bank manager in jim Thorpe that was shot that almost dipped.
Another was a customer bank customer that was coming in from carrying her business earnings
from the day to make a deposit and he shot her and she had a
graze wound in the year. And then there was another that he did not
admit to, but both Jim and I believe he did, and that was
a shooting of a police officer in nineteen eighty two up in Columbia, Pennsylvania,
and he denies that he did that, but it just seems that in
nineteen eighty two he stopped robbing banks and began back up again in nineteen eighty
seven. So he took a five year hiatus, and Jim and I both
asked him, why did you stop. He says, I just got to
doing it and I wanted to do something else. So what he did.
What he did is he started stealing books, textbooks from colleges and then he
take those books in the back of his van and he would go up to
Columbia University and he would post something that books for sale because they all use
the same books right for sale, statistics books, math books, economics,
and he would sell those. And I said, geez, Carl, how
much money could you make timely? Because I'd make thirty thousand dollars that's how
many books he stole. It was amazing, I said, thirty thousand dollars.
That's unbelievable. Most people in the eighties, you were lucky if you
were making seventy thousand dollars a year. Before we move on, though,
one thing I wanted to ask was when you told me that, if I'm
doing this for memory, he served seventeen years or something like that, seventeen
and a half. That strikes me as a light sentence for someone that actually
committed acts of violence during the commission of those bank robberies, because when you
first said that, I thought to myself, this must be one of those
gentlemanly bank robbers that doesn't shoot anyone or injure anyone. And yet he actually
did injure at least two people. Shooting a police officer, as we know,
is deadly serious business here. How did he manage to only serve less
than twenty years despite being a violent criminal. He was arrested in two thousand
and two, and although the shootings, although very egregious as they were,
they were outside the statute of limitations are many of the bank robberies, so
there were really only five robberies that were within the statute of limitations. So
he entered into a seed plea. And what a seed plea is in federal
court. It allows both the prosecutor and the defense attorney to agree to a
sentence before he sentenced. Now, just because they agree to it does not
mean that the judge has to abide. But in many cases it's discussed an
open court and the judge gives I'll take it under consideration. But usually it
works out in the benefit of the offender when that happens, This is fascinating.
We gotta have you come back here and talk about this case. Ray,
sure thing, Sure thing, Chris, and I'd love to. What
would you say are some of the major goals that you have for your podcast
other than telling an amazing story, which you both clearly can what are your
the major things that you want to accomplish as you go through fits. I'll
start with you and then kick it over to Ray. Yeah, we agreed
early on that. I don't think this is too different from legitimate and professional
podcasts or such as yourself. But we want to make a big part of
our podcast about the victims. And Bill, no one knows victimhood more than
you. You've lost a sister, I've lost good friends, police officers,
other friends, and robberies and things like that, so it is very difficult,
and we want to make sure that why we can joke a little bit
as we are now, sometimes in the beginning, sometimes at the end,
but in the middle, we're dead serious about the topics at hand, and
and then we try to give every episode at the end we try to give
some kind of a hints or suggestions or ideas about how a victim can best
protect themselves. It may be directly related to the topic we just discussed,
it may be indirect to it, but but we could be very basic,
it could be more advanced and complex. And from street crimes to cyber crimes,
it is about the victims. I'll never forget the first crime con in
Indianapolis. I was there with Jim Clemente. I'm not sure if you were
at that one, Christ and I know you came to the Indianapolis one now.
I think my first one was Nashville. I met Indianapolis was the first
one, and that's where we met, I think for the first time.
But I remember Jim was like the MC for the whole thing and on the
stage that make sure we have a moment in there about the Victims' all.
Fitch, you're right. I think he's a brilliant guy, but he had
so much on his mind that's had maybe ten or so seconds of silence for
the victims before you we kick everything off. He's a good idea, and
I hope crime con we're not as much involved in not as we used to
mounting his company and I have an involvement there too, But so yeah,
it's about the victims. But of course try to tell the story in between.
We're not lecturing anybody. We're not saying here's what you got to do.
But I think the way we try to lay out our individual anecdotes or
multiple anecdotes regarding you know, different types of criminals who may be committing the
same types of crimes a listeners and viewers. At the end, here's how
you can avoid being a victim yourself or a loved one, And by God,
forbid it does happen. Here's what you know you can do to get
through it. Ray you want to jump into Yeah, I think Jim said
it beautifully. Our whole thing is to communicate to victims that they're not forgotten.
No victim is ever forgotten here. So we do talk about things so
that we can help prepare those that were victims so they won't be revictimized,
and those that have never been a victim to make sure they can avoid things
by improving their situational awareness. The situational awareness is such a big part of
what people do every single day, but people are so oblivious because they have
their heads in their phones or their iPads and are not paying attention to what's
going on around them. People need to do that more and more, especially
in today's society. You see some of the violence that's occurring, and you
see some of these things, and you look at the violence and people are
being just jumped on in train stations, in the street, they're being knocked
to the ground. So that situational awareness can help prevent you from maybe something
like that happening to you if you're paying attention to your surroundings. One thing
I was wondering about the two of you are both masterful storytellers. We often
talk about cases that you've worked that you've solved. Are either of you comfortable
talking about unsolved cases that you may have worked in the past. Sure,
it's part of who we are. Yeah, one of the big one.
It sticks with me as a nineteen ninety two eleven year old boy from Drexeld,
Pennsylvania that was down at the shore in Cape May, Mark Himbach and
he disappeared Cape May, New Jersey, by the way, Yeah, Cape
May, New Jersey. He disappeared and they've never found him, and they've
never arrested anybody for that. And I remember I was a fairly new agent,
maybe five six years on, and that winds up falling on me and
coming to me, and I just I still think about that young boy.
First thing the king in my mind when you mentioned it, that young child,
and it's still something that just bothers me. Where is that young boy?
And today that's nineteen nineteen ninety two, he'd be in his forties.
Man, That's what's one that comes to mind for you. Yeah, this
is it's easy to remember, but very difficult to discuss. And that is
the case of my good friend Joe Welsh, who was murdered in a street
robbery in Philadelphia in the nineteen ninety seven. And I was out at Unibom,
just finishing up there, and I get a phone call. Joe's been
shot. He's forty two years old. It was middle of the afternoon in
our old neighborhood, in our old only neighborhood of Philadelphia. And he lived
about two weeks and they finally just pulled the ventilator and he was gone.
And street crimes, robberies, Hey, give me your money. Probably a
junkie. This is not what profilers necessarily. It's not our expertise or a
tradecraft. Now I was a police officer, of course I handled crimes such
as this, and I helped solve them. But and it wasn't an FBI
jurisdiction either. It was a robbery homicide on the streets of Philadelphia. So
as a Philly PD case, I worked with the detectives. I brought another
profiler up with me. We went through the neighborhood, we went to the
crime scene and interviewed some people. One guy was arrested, but let go.
So I'm doing now my fourth and final book in my memoir series,
and that's one of the chapters in that book. I out that case and
I'm still friendly with his I was actually most friendly with Joe Welsh's older brother,
John, who was actually one of the people shot at the First Move
confrontation in nineteen seventy eight. He was a Philadelphia firefighter and he caught some
shot shotgun rounds to the neck. I heard this on the radio live,
and I actually left I was working that day and drove down to Philly.
He was okay and along with a few other firefighters. But here twenty some
years later, his younger brother gets murdered in a street robbery. And again
it wasn't an FBI case. I didn't have my name on the case file,
per se. But I said to the PD I want to help you
guys solve this. I said to the family, I want to help you
guys solve this. And to this day it hasn't been solved. And I
don't want to get too ahead of myself here, but there'll be a special
announcement at the time of the publication of my fourth book in which I include
this chapter about Joe Welsh that it solved or I have a suspect, but
let's just say something I'm willing to do to help maybe refresh the memories of
some people out there. So let's hope that works and finally, after all
this time, we can get some resolution to this. One case that sticks
in my craw was Joe Welsh in law enforcement at the time he was killed?
Or he was a civilian? Nope, he was a civilian. Three
o'clock in the afternoon. He had some work for the Philadelphia Department of License
and Inspection, walking home from a training seminar to his car in his old
neighborhood and someone just confronted them on the streets. And we have a witness
looking out the window and saw everything go down. It was very tough to
hear all that. But I do stand. I still plan on solving this
case with help with the PHILLYPD. And we can talk about the boy in
the box in a bit. But it took sixty five years to solve that
case, or at least identify the young boy. Maybe we can find the
person who killed Joe Welsh and let the justice come for that person as it
should be meeted. I remember that case, Jimmy, I remember you given
a call up that I remember running down leads for you with that up in
Philadelphia. I remember that was I'm sorry I never forgot about Joe either.
I know that affects you. I'm really sorry that that's a that's something I
appreciate that and we will get it solved. And I'm hoping this chapter in
my book and get some more headlines out of it. We can bring some
closure to it. Do you get me if you need anything? Thank you.
Right you're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll be right back after this
word from our sponsors, we're back here at Mind over Murder. As podcasters,
we all sort of work within the same true crime space and there's always
the same sorts of major issues that we talk about in the crime injustice space,
Unsolved cases and how to solve them, best uses for DNA, forensic
genetic genealogy, that sort of thing. What are some of the big issues
in the crime injustice space that the two of you want to discuss on the
pod I would have to say violence in general, it's off the charts.
It's like it's like a war zone. Violence against the elderly, violence against
women. There's an addiction epidemic out there, there is huge mental health issues
out there. There's a big lack of trust between police officers and citizens.
There's a lot of issues that are facing police agencies this year. Think about
and one of the things I'm on the Police Administration Committee for the IACPIT,
and the IACP is the International Association of Chiefs of Police and this year's media
is in San Diego and I go to the early meetings. But one of
the biggest problems with police forces across the country is recruitment and retention. That's
just a big thing. And look at the media coverage. Whence the last
time you heard something pleasant about what the police do. Unless you're watch it
on a YouTube, a TikTok someone sends you a TikTok thing, nobody ever
talks about that. Police are so under the gun that no matter what they
do, they're under the risk of prosecution. How do you work under that?
What does that do for morale? What does that do for their wellness?
Police officers want to be part of the solution, but I don't think
the media and the public are giving the opportunity to do. What I'll add
to that is both directly and indirectly. Yeah, I support the police,
I'll say one hundred percent. But having said that, I've been involved in
the arrest of police officers and FBI agents. If they're dirty, they should
go down, of course due process. Of course, they've every right that
everyone else does. But yeah, we do have to give the law enforcement
more support today than ever because they are being decimated in the social media and
regular media for that matter. I was interested in learning just a few months
ago at v DOC of a new term that a prosecutor laid on me,
and I was familiar with the term. So let's take it to the next
level. Ray, just us what's happening in the streets, the subways in
many of our large cities, the crime rates and other places. And so
let's say there isn't arrest made. Well, now the person goes to trial
and there's a jury. And for years we've heard the term CSI jury,
and that is and Chris, and you mentioned some of these forensic capabilities early
on when you asked this question, and it's like nowaday or then the CSI
jury. If there wasn't DNA, if there wasn't clear whole color surveillance video,
and of course throw in fingerprints. They were reluctant to convict someone based
on watching the TV show CSI, in which every forty two minute episode with
commercials, of course, wound up at being closed because one of these three
factors kicked in. You don't necessarily need DNA fingerprints or surveillance cameras. There's
plenty of direct and indirect evidence. There's plenty of circumstantial evidence that in fact,
can lead to a conviction. Well, I learned just a few months
ago from someone at the v Doc Society. She was a guest. She's
a secutor in northern New Jersey. Now, the term the prosecutors us,
besides a CSI jury, is a Netflix jury. And I said, boy,
I think I know where you're going with that, But tell me,
And she said, yeah, it's like people now watch Netflix and all these
documentaries are about either someone was falsely accused and falsely convicted, or they raised
serious questions about the legitimacy of an arrest and a conviction. And I know
with the I guess the granddaddy of all podcasts, certainly in true crime,
was Serial About I've not I forget his last name. Yeah, And I
listened to that and very interesting. But I said, after listening to that,
I said, we could pick there's a there's criminal investigation that was broken
down into every single element and torn apart every witness identification. And just because
something's called a documentary, it does not mean it's one hundred percent objective or
even true. Producers, directors, they have their agendas too. Some of
them is to sell that the documentary. I know that was PBA, I
think it or NPR, whatever it was, But I remember telling people said,
it's interesting. They do raise some good questions. You can have the
best brain surgeon in the world that performs a perfect operation, very complicated,
very technical, and then you have a team that comes in afterwards and looks
at everything she did and said, you know what, no, this could
have been done better here. Now I have a problem with cutting this part
of the left side of the brains. And I'm just using this, of
course as an example. So that's where it's also problematic with Joris, this
Netflix that they watch these shows that according to these documentaries, many of these
people are innocent and shouldn't be in jail. And the last thing that's not
to do with TV, but I teach I know Ray teaches in academia.
I teach at Penwest University. I'm familiar with people teaching at Georgetown University.
And there's something very popular in academia right now called the innocence problem. Boy,
it sounds great and it's I'm all for it. I've even helped on
a few cases. But you have some of these professors, usually lawyers,
dems, coming in and they're convincing entire auditoriums of college students that virtually everyone
in prison is innocent. And I think that is unhealthy. It's not the
case. Are there some people in prison that shouldn't be there, possibly,
but we're talking less than point zero zero zero one percent, and yeah,
let's fight for those people. But I think we're getting school of thought put
out there now that prosecutions are bad, convictions are bad in jail is good.
And I know some academics in my field of forensic linguistics. They refused
to work with law enforcement, They refused to work with prosecution. They'll only
work for the defense. I remember twenty years ago talking to some folks,
I would never work a capital case for the prosecution. Okay, I respect
that you don't want to. You don't believe in the death penalty. I
respect that, but now they've reached the point they won't work with law enforcement
or prosecutors' offices at all. I said, we shouldn't the evidence supersede that
you look at the evidence in the case. Wouldn't that just you could look
at that objectively and say, hey, this guy, if it's a what
was the case he did write this threatening letter or whatever? And they said
no, No, I just I don't believe in the system anymore. And
of course they're teaching students, and I just think it could be very problematic
that way. Every case has to be looked at individually, and there's no
problem doing that. But I think a lot of these students are being convinced
and a lot of our public is being convinced that the criminal justice system is
flawed and it's putting too many people in jail that don't belong there. It's
the best system there's ever been, and that's just a falsehood that's being that's
permeating throughout our society that I hope can be corrected. You mentioned the VIDAC
Society a moment ago, and we know you're both members of VIDAC. For
the benefit of our listeners, Can you explain what the society is and how
it functions, right, Jim Doc VIDOCQ. It was the name of a
French criminal, Jacques or Jean. I forget his personal Francis probably Francois French.
Anyway, you remember the name. I didn't, but be a member
for fifteen years. Anyway, he was a criminal in Paris and they locked
him up and he realized the wrongs of his ways and he came out.
And the police had first hired him just to help out solving crimes, and
next thing you know, he became a police officer, and next thing you
know, he became the chief of a police of the Paris Police department.
And he's considered the first true detective. Sherlock Holmes's course was fictional, but
France Sis v doc was real and he lived to eighty two years of age.
So that's why v DOC only has eighty two full members privilege to be
one of those full members, but there are hundreds of associate members. And
they were founded really started with the boy in the box case. That case
goes back to the late fifties, but they were reinvestigating this matter in the
late nineteen eighties, a few people got together and said, why don't we
start this little group the society. We had these lawyers, we know,
we had these retired investigators. Let's meet for lunch once a month or so
in the fancy Union League building in downtown Philadelphia and South Broad Street. And
it grew from there. Now it's several hundred people strong, and we do
meet the third Thursday of every month and a new case comes in. We're
a nonprofit, of course, we actually pay to go to these lunches,
and that's fine because we're contributing to the cause. We fly in the departments.
Usually you won't get like NYPD or LAPD coming in, and not because
one set of detectives is better than the other, but they have the funding
and they have the personnel that they can handle a lot of their cases.
We'll usually get smaller to mid size departments who come in and the cases at
least five years old. We've had cases there ray probably fifty years old.
Besides even boy in the box, and we'll sit and listen to the investigators.
Rarely are the investigators in the front of the room, the ones who
initially work the case. So we're getting like second or third generation investigators,
because now there's a cold case squad formed in their department and they're now involved
in it, and they're saying, all right, here's everything they did back
then. Here's everything we have in front of us. Can you guys help
put these things together? And we have DNA experts, we have profilers,
forensic linguists. Ray has all kinds of backgrounds with evidence and hostage negotiation as
a profiling coordinator and certainly an investigator. And we have other people that are
lawyers and computer people, blood spatter people, and we're all together in one
room. There's usually fifty or sixty of us. They do the PowerPoint presentation.
Always buy dessert times when the autopsy pictures go up, which is strange.
Oh god, people like Ray and I are used to that. That's
why I need dessert, Jim. Okay, I don't deserve even today.
I don't need dessert, Jim. There's a reason for it. Okay,
someone's going to bring out some pictures dead bodies. Don't you like e dessert
time? Oh my god, you and the sixth sense kid. But it's
not even planned that way. It's just there's always a few autopsy pictures in
there, and then we have a Q and A afterwards. We've started about
two or three years ago. We don't just end it on that day,
say thank you detectives, let us know if anything happens. We now have
working teams that we all assign to each of these cases, maybe a dozen
members each with varied backgrounds, and we'll do our best to do follow ups
with these detectives for months, if not years down the line. They are
very appreciative of their day or two in Philadelphia and that they know they're getting
the top quality people who can talk to talk but also have walk the walk.
To use that expression again in terms of what we can offer them back.
And every case gets solved because they only bring us the toughest cases.
Five ten could be thirty six years old someday, Bill, But there's actually
advantages to working cases that are old that you don't have in the beginning.
And I know our time is running out of here, but allegiances that were
very strong back when a murder was committed, they somehow fade away when the
big tough guy back then who maybe was the murder, he's now a little,
fat, bald guy that doesn't quite have the power base that he used
to and his cohorts, his ex girlfriend, ex wife, whatever. He
doesn't instill the fear in them that he used to. So that's a big
factor. And what we say, try to go back and interview this person
again. Reinterview people, maybe have them wear a wire all legally, of
course, check their phone records, things that most investigators will have done already.
But we try to take them to the next level. And sometimes they'll
come in with one or two suspects. Sometimes it's five suspects or more.
Sometimes no suspects at all, and that's when we'll try to paint the profile
for them. When there's no suspect, but if they have four or five,
we'll do our best to prioritize them. Usually we can roll out two
or three say I would say it's this number one guy here. I would
do everything in your power to eliminate him, and if you do, then
go to number two. But boy, everything you've told us, this seems
to be the culprit here. And the investigators from all over the country,
We've even had them come in from Canada already. They really appreciate the help
we can give. And we definitely have solved some cases, including that one
that's sixty five years old. The one thing that Jim says, I'm also
a full member with the society, But the one thing that Jim talks about
is the disciplines. You have to understand that any discipline that you could think
of, from toxicology to blood spatter to fingerprinting tool or fee, no matter
what it is, there's somebody within this society that has an expertise. It's
a subject matter expert in that area that they bring to the table. So
we have the ability that nobody else in this country has is to have every
discipline covered, looking at it, even genealogy. We have everything covered,
which makes us so unique. One thing I'll mentioned because I know our listeners
are going to bring it up after listening to this fascinating part of the conversation.
I want to make it clear. The Colonial Parkuay murders families did request
that the FBI, Norfolk and Newport News offices take the Colonial Parkway murders to
the VDOC Society, and v I turned us down. This was in twenty
ten. I believe I was involved in the formal request and they turned us
down, and you get the usual bureaucratic answer. It's an open case.
We don't feel like we want to bring in outside experts. I'm not saying
I wouldn't be willing to revisit that. I know people have said to us
who follow the podcast, have you ever considered the v doc society? And
I know that this conversation will steer people back in that direction. I'd certainly
be willing to revisit it, but I do want our listeners to know that
we did ask and we were turned down before. I still think it would
be a great case for a VIDC. Although it's a very complicated case.
We've had complicated cases and we can handle them, and every case has to
go by its own merits. I'll be careful here, Bill, but I
really wish perhaps a new team of FBI agents. And I forgot it was
as long as thirty six years. What the hell do they have to lose
at this point in a closed society of experts. We're not saying to a
documentary and yet, although that may be down the line, something to do
too. I know there have been some media shows on that, but they
get really into the depth of this investigation. What the hell do they have
to lose after all this time, So I disagree with their logic there,
I agree with you, but maybe they don't know about and I don't know.
But do we know if this case was ever sent down to BAU,
yes, or look at its actually been looked at by BAU more than once.
That's still not a problem. There's been cases that have been looked at
by BAU that have still come to the Vduck Society. We've been able to
help because you get a fresh set of eyes on it, which is exactly
what you need. You need these fresh set of eyes to give you some
insight that you may not be able to see because your judgment is clouded or
because it's so old. But some of the guys in the Vduck Society are
pretty old too, So not us, not me and you, Jim.
But there's some guys there and ladies that are pretty old that have been around
the block a few times so they know what to look for. So yeah,
I hope that. I hope we get a chance to take a look
at that Bill, I really do. Yeah, And unfortunately we can't reach
out. The Rock doesn't call these local or state police departments or FBI.
Hey, we'd really like it to be. It has to be the initiation
of the peoven the family. They can request all they want to us,
they really have to go to the investigative agency itself. So there's a number
of cases of which I am familiar. I would love to just run it
ourselves at the DOC, but of course we can't do that. We need
the inside investigators that can really bring us the information that can help solve the
case. It's an intriguing possibility, without question. So I know both of
you are authors. We've referenced Ray's book already, and Jim has references of
course, But let's get it on the record for anybody who wants to embark
on a literary journey through your books. So Ray, give us the details
about yours and where people can find it, and then Fits give us yours.
The name of the book is thirty Years on the Run, the Hunt
for the most prolific bank robber and American in history. It's about an individual
that was involved in robbing banks for thirty years before he was caught. He's
unique. I gave you some insight into that. If you're interested in purchasing
this book, you can do so on Amazon or you can go to my
website Raymond Jacar dot com and you can order right off my web if you'd
like to do it there as well. M and Jacar dot com and fits.
Go ahead and talk about your books, please, Ray. When people
buy your books from you, do you give them free sign to posters with
cool statements on them? Because I do? Now. I knew you were
gonna say it. Not you and your bvds or anything, is it,
Jim? Jeez? No, Ray, there's your fantasy life aside for a
minute, for a minute, anyway. My book series is a Journey to
the Center of the Mind. All three books have the same title, and
I'm now doing the fourth one. It'll be out in the fall, and
by popular demand, I put the third book I had. I hired a
professional voiceover guy to do the third book. He did a great job.
In fact, it was nominated for an award the Audio Book, and I
didn't win, but it was still being nominated was pretty cool. People said,
Hey, this guy was great, Jim, this guy was great,
But I want to hear your voice, I said, I put off writing.
I wrote three books in five years and I needed a little bit of
a break. And so now just back in February or so, I started
doing my fourth book, would be the final book in my memoir series,
also a Journey to the Center of the Mine, and it will be me
narrating the second half of my FBI career and the exciting stuff that happened in
retirement in the fifteen years since I've retired, but still a very busy profiler
and forensic linguist. But I want to add in there too. Separate from
those that book series, I also did an audio book called The Fits Files
man Hunt Unibomber, and just a few years after the mini series came out
it was so popular. Of course, Manhunt Unibomber's Sam Worthington portrayed me in
that series. It's eight part was on Discovery Channel, then on Netflix.
Now I think it's only on Amazon and the Discovery Channel website. But I
did a companion piece, if you will, in which it's eight chapters in
this audiobook, and each chapter relates to one of the episodes in Manhunt Unibomber,
and I break down for the listeners what actually happened, what didn't happen,
why the writers and directors made it this way. And I also interviewed
Jim Clemente because he was one of the co creators of it, the director.
I interviews Greggy Antennas, Andrew Sidrowski, the head writer, and a
couple of the prop guys are are really cool too in the stories they tell
in terms of how they make a series from twenty or twenty five years back,
and how they get old fax machines and old computers and that's just part
of it, and even guns and how that stuff works. So A Journey
to Center Mind is a series Amazon and through my website you get a free
cool poster. Go through me directly, and also Amazon and audio dot com
where the Fitz files man hunt unibummer, what's the poster to pick? I
was actually going to reach for mine so I could show it to you.
I don't Jim has a copy. Give him a second. It's a pretty
good looking to see this, Fray. You're you think you're funny here,
don't you? No, not at all. Rays looks for ideas to help
market thirty years on the run his book. He wants to be as successful
as you are. Fits. Why can't I find them? I don't want
to say we're seeing the best side of it right now, Jim, don't
worry, you know, I have my relatively close by there. Oh my
god. But if I leave it up there, someone will print it out
and they copy. Hey, let me tell you what's happening real quick to
me. People are contacting me by mail and online and Ray, this is
going to happen to you. And there's pictures of Ted Kazinski and mugshots and
they want me to sign them. They say it's for their kids, and
their kids are in wheelchairs and hospital beds. And one of them sent them
to my actual address. And how did they find that out? And I
waited a while. It's a former address. Now it really is all right,
your kids in a wheelchair, right, you're sick, you're elderly.
I signed them. It's only three or four of them up, so it's
Ted Kazinski, it's me at the cabin. They're online. They print them
out in nice stock paper. I signed them. You can guess where this
is going. They're on eBay seventy five, one hundred dollars. There's a
guy now wants my business card because he wants to teach his son how to
be my head. Just sign the business card, so we can put it
up in his little glass case. And and I haven't responded yet, and
I'm thinking there saying if you put it on eBay, I want whatever running
here. So did you get my letter, Jim? I asked for money,
Yeah, but you sent me your picture, which automatically negated the deal.
I can see you whenever I want. I know. That's terrible,
and it's we're gonna have to We're gonna have to continue this. This has
been an amazing conversation. We're gonna invite you on to our show. How
about that? Absolutely? We would love that. Okay, we would love
that so much. That is gonna wrap for this episode of mind Over Murder
with Jim Fitzgerald and Ray Card. Their podcast is Cold Red. Where can
we find the podcast, gentlemen, It's on Apple, It's on iHeart,
on YouTube. There's clips there if you just google it old red little pop
up and you'd be good to go. Fantastic. The podcast is Cold Red.
Jim, Ray, thank you so much for joining us. As always,
it is a pleasure to have you here. Thank you, thank you
for having us. We appreciate it. That's going to do it for this
episode of mind Over Murder. We'll see you next time. Mind Over Murder
is a production of Absolute Zero and Another Dog Productions. Our executive producers are
Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. Our
theme music is by Kevin McLeod. Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with
Coral Space Media. You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram.
You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway Murders on Facebook,
and finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at Bill Thomas. Five
six. Thank you for listening to mind O Murder.