1 00:00:01,080 --> 00:00:07,200 You're listening to the Mind over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas. 2 00:00:07,719 --> 00:00:12,039 I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now 3 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:16,000 trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other 4 00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:20,239 victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway 5 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:24,719 murders and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 6 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:29,079 Kristin Dilley. My name is Kristin Dilley. I'm a writer, a researcher, 7 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:32,799 a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social media 8 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:37,880 manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner in 9 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:49,920 crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind of a Murder. I'm Kristin Dilley 10 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:56,560 and I'm Bill Thomas, and we're joined today by former FBI profiler Jim FitzGeralds 11 00:00:56,679 --> 00:01:02,240 fitz to his friends and doctor Raymond are joining us to talk about their new 12 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:07,560 podcast, Cold Red Fits and Ray Thank you for joining us. Person. 13 00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:11,280 I glad to be back and thank you for having us on. Thanks Kristen, 14 00:01:11,719 --> 00:01:14,159 and you too, Bill. Of course. Oh of course, though 15 00:01:14,159 --> 00:01:18,000 we don't want to forget about you. And as I recalled, just before 16 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:23,319 we started, Ray was bucking to be our favorite profiler and pushing fits out 17 00:01:23,319 --> 00:01:27,719 of the lead spot for our favorite FBI profiler. How did I do? 18 00:01:29,239 --> 00:01:34,480 You're doing great so far? Yeah? Yeah, self praise is better than 19 00:01:34,519 --> 00:01:36,359 none, Ray, that's what my dad, Dad, you should tell me. 20 00:01:37,480 --> 00:01:42,120 Keep thinking you're the best. I'm very fragile. Take it easy on 21 00:01:42,239 --> 00:01:45,480 me. I can see that about you, all right, spoken like long 22 00:01:45,519 --> 00:01:49,000 time partners. I would say, it's pretty clear that the two of you 23 00:01:49,079 --> 00:01:52,640 know each other. But go ahead and formalize it for our audience. When 24 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:56,359 did you start working together? And would you call this a friendship or a 25 00:01:56,480 --> 00:02:00,040 partnership or what would you call this? Ray wanted me start because you mentioned 26 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:02,799 it the other night on our show. When I was in Philly as an 27 00:02:02,799 --> 00:02:06,840 agent, I was rolling down the street in my vehicle and I saw this 28 00:02:06,879 --> 00:02:08,280 guy who was homeless, and I'm just all right, all right, I'm 29 00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:12,960 just kidding. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. First time I ever 30 00:02:13,039 --> 00:02:16,840 met Fitz, I was sitting on a bank rappy squad in Philadelphia and a 31 00:02:16,960 --> 00:02:21,639 lead came in from New York. I the lead there was a couple of 32 00:02:21,719 --> 00:02:24,159 additional questions I had about the lead, and I gave a call up to 33 00:02:24,199 --> 00:02:29,199 the agent of New York, James Fitzgerald, and we started talking, and 34 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:31,840 then fitz wind up going down in the unit, and then we talked and 35 00:02:31,879 --> 00:02:38,080 formed a friendship and it's lasted ever since, so it's more than thirty years. 36 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:40,680 He's like family to me. He's were very close and I do appreciate 37 00:02:40,759 --> 00:02:44,919 that. Ray. And yeah, and then you were an nc ABC coordinator, 38 00:02:45,360 --> 00:02:49,879 National Center for the Analysis, a violent Crime coordinator, which means he 39 00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:53,400 had special training and behavior profiling, but he was in the field. And 40 00:02:53,560 --> 00:02:58,120 back then, in the early days of the profiling Unit, it go went 41 00:02:58,199 --> 00:03:00,319 by different names. Back then, I won't bore your listeners and viewers all 42 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:04,759 that stuff, but we'll just call it the profiling unit. The profilers are 43 00:03:04,759 --> 00:03:07,520 basically assigned geographically, and I figured, if I'm from Philadelphia, let me 44 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:10,840 just keep the home stay. And I basically had New England down I think 45 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:15,520 through Jersey and Delaware, so any case that happened in that region which would 46 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:20,080 need help from a profiler, behaviorists whatever. Of course, now I'm doing 47 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:24,000 more forensic linguistic work. After the unibomb case anywhere in Philly, and that's 48 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:29,400 a big division up to State College and parts of South Jersey. Ray'd be 49 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:30,680 the one that would give me a call. And we worked a number of 50 00:03:30,719 --> 00:03:35,719 cases early on, and we solved between Arthur Beaumar serial killer. Ray. 51 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:38,719 We helped solve that and the Center City rapist. We certainly played a role 52 00:03:38,719 --> 00:03:42,719 in that being saved. So we had some I was gonna say good luck, 53 00:03:42,719 --> 00:03:45,520 but we had some good detectives working with us, and we did our 54 00:03:45,560 --> 00:03:50,000 best to fill in the behavioral missing pieces and both those cases came together, 55 00:03:50,039 --> 00:03:52,719 and of course a bunch of other ones since then. And yes, so 56 00:03:52,759 --> 00:03:57,120 professionally we've been together for a while and personally the same time too, And 57 00:03:57,360 --> 00:04:02,680 we'll save some of those stories for maybe you're nice time podcast guys after dark? 58 00:04:03,199 --> 00:04:10,120 Yes, after dark, Oh Bell, that sounds like a pretty great 59 00:04:10,120 --> 00:04:14,439 idea, A mind of her murder after Dark? I like it. That 60 00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:16,160 sounds great, Hey, great ideas. I think we're going to steal that 61 00:04:16,199 --> 00:04:20,279 if you don't mind go for it. And then, but your podcast is 62 00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:26,319 Cold Red, and so how far along are you with Cold Red? I'd 63 00:04:26,319 --> 00:04:30,279 say we're about seven or eight episodes at this point. The first few we 64 00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:32,759 just done just Ray and I, which is not a bad combination. And 65 00:04:33,040 --> 00:04:36,439 we had our first guest the other night. Are exactly have an executive producer 66 00:04:36,639 --> 00:04:41,839 the sound producer, and you want to talk about missing and child abductions, 67 00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:45,319 things like that, and Ray and I both worked those cases. We both 68 00:04:45,319 --> 00:04:49,800 can talk the talk, but we both collectively figured let's let's bring someone in 69 00:04:49,839 --> 00:04:53,959 who really knows what they're talking about. So Ray, why don't you tell 70 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:56,639 him about our first guest ever? And I think he really hit a home 71 00:04:56,720 --> 00:05:00,279 run. That was a good friend of mine, and Jim also knows him. 72 00:05:00,639 --> 00:05:02,959 Name was Kevin McShane and he was part of the CART team. So 73 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:08,120 when you say KART, what does that mean? What does that acrona mean? 74 00:05:08,879 --> 00:05:14,759 It's the Child Abduction Response Deployment Team, So it's cr DT. But 75 00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:18,920 you hear KRT, think CRT, And what happens is he was a member, 76 00:05:18,959 --> 00:05:23,800 one of the original members of that team that kind of formed in the 77 00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:29,000 early two thousands, and he would be deployed predominantly. He was a member 78 00:05:29,079 --> 00:05:33,000 of a regional team that handled the northeast from Maine down to Virginia. But 79 00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:36,720 there's times when agents are away, or they're involved in case works where he 80 00:05:36,759 --> 00:05:42,360 would be deployed all over the United States. Usually they're on scene within the 81 00:05:42,399 --> 00:05:46,279 first if there's locally, usually there's an agent within the first few hours, 82 00:05:46,279 --> 00:05:51,000 because time is your enemy in these cases, especially when you have a missing 83 00:05:51,079 --> 00:05:55,639 child. He brought a lot of things in the table for us. He 84 00:05:55,759 --> 00:06:00,040 explained things very well. I think our listeners were great. They were very 85 00:06:00,319 --> 00:06:04,639 fortunate to have someone like that to be able to discuss that. Whose idea 86 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:09,079 was it for you guys to team up and have this pod? This is 87 00:06:09,199 --> 00:06:13,120 clearly a match made in heaven between the two of you, considering all the 88 00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:16,399 experience that you have in your friendship. Who stepped forward first and said, 89 00:06:16,439 --> 00:06:19,920 hey, let's have a pod. I'm going to start off ray a few 90 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:23,399 years ago, and we haven't talked about this in a while, but I 91 00:06:23,399 --> 00:06:28,920 think you know where I'm going. I'm good friends with a very popular sports 92 00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:33,439 radio sports show host in Philadelphia named Angelo Cataldi. He actually just retired a 93 00:06:33,439 --> 00:06:36,079 few years ago. He wanted to see the Eagles go to the Super Bowl 94 00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:40,120 one more time. They didn't win, of course, but so he retired. 95 00:06:40,439 --> 00:06:43,800 But a few years before that we got friendly and he read my books. 96 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:46,680 He was very encouraging. I actually thank him in my first book, 97 00:06:46,879 --> 00:06:49,480 A Journey to the Center of the Mind, my memoir series. And we 98 00:06:49,519 --> 00:06:53,680 started talking. I said, Angelo, I think there's room out there for 99 00:06:53,839 --> 00:06:57,720 a radio show where we talk true crime. And I said, you work 100 00:06:57,759 --> 00:07:00,279 for a station, You've got some pull there. What do you think I 101 00:07:00,319 --> 00:07:01,560 had this, buddy, ray Car, I think the two of us could 102 00:07:01,560 --> 00:07:05,040 really we could get out there and we could start off right away. Present 103 00:07:05,079 --> 00:07:09,519 cases, pass cases, anything like that. These are Fitze always called me, 104 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:12,360 Fitzy, that's a great idea. Let me talk to my people. 105 00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:15,279 And Ray I think I called you, and I think within two weeks or 106 00:07:15,319 --> 00:07:19,360 so, we had an interview in a radio station twelve ten in Philadelphia, 107 00:07:19,399 --> 00:07:24,639 in downtown Philly. We met there one afternoon around one or two o'clock and 108 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:28,560 we sat down with this I don't know, probably thirty five forty year old 109 00:07:28,759 --> 00:07:31,879 producer, and quite frankly, we started arguing. We started arguing from the 110 00:07:31,879 --> 00:07:38,560 beginning. You argued fits. I didn't argue at all. I was a 111 00:07:38,680 --> 00:07:41,959 pastmaker. There's good cop, bad cop, and I guess I was the 112 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:45,240 bad cop that day. But basically we sat down and we said, hey, 113 00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:47,600 we're ready to go, and this guy starts asking us like technical questions 114 00:07:47,639 --> 00:07:50,439 about you know, what kind of equipment you would need, and we were 115 00:07:50,439 --> 00:07:54,079 going to come into a studio. This is before people were working from their 116 00:07:54,079 --> 00:07:56,839 homes and you know what it's like to do a talk shit how much work? 117 00:07:57,000 --> 00:07:58,720 I said, yeah, I do, and we're willing to put the 118 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:01,639 work into it. Ray and I were big cases together, twenty four forty 119 00:08:01,639 --> 00:08:05,279 eight hours in a row and in person or on phone whatever. I said, 120 00:08:05,279 --> 00:08:09,199 we can do this. Give us a good producer and once a week, 121 00:08:09,279 --> 00:08:11,240 two hours, three hours, twice a week, we can do this. 122 00:08:11,319 --> 00:08:13,480 And you and the guys, no, you can't. You don't know 123 00:08:13,519 --> 00:08:16,680 how hard there is to be a radio talk show host. I said, 124 00:08:16,759 --> 00:08:20,439 I'm telling you we can do this. We're FBI retired, and we know 125 00:08:20,519 --> 00:08:24,680 how to testify, we know how to talk to people. I give present 126 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:28,360 take, and basically the one guy just wound up slamming his book and said, 127 00:08:28,399 --> 00:08:31,480 yeah, you don't call us, we'll call you. And we walked 128 00:08:31,519 --> 00:08:33,200 out the door and there are people going by on their little motor scooters. 129 00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:37,600 Remember I forget the guy's name. That was one of the sports hosts and 130 00:08:37,639 --> 00:08:39,559 that we walked up the door. I called my friend Angelo and said, 131 00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:43,120 it didn't go that well. He's there yet, don't worry about it. 132 00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:45,799 Let me see Fitz see what else I can do. And I said, 133 00:08:45,799 --> 00:08:48,159 you know what, all this podcast stuff is coming on the board now. 134 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:52,440 Maybe maybe eventually that'll be the direction will go. And quite frankly, I 135 00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:56,559 sat back and waited for the right team to come to us, and basically 136 00:08:56,840 --> 00:09:00,480 and Ray was a part of this and that they can into I said, 137 00:09:00,519 --> 00:09:03,279 hey, guys, you're the talent quote unquote, and we'll put everything together, 138 00:09:03,360 --> 00:09:07,080 the marketing and the admin stop and of course the technical stuff. And 139 00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:11,480 about six weeks ago we wasn't Ray the night of the Nashville Students, or 140 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:16,200 maybe a couple of nights after that, and that was our first or second 141 00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:18,519 episode and we've been going out of it ever since. So right, I 142 00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:22,720 try to do this with Terrestrial I guess the radio they call that. And 143 00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:26,240 we wound up barguing with the guy we didn't get the job, we failed 144 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:31,799 the audition. But when our podcast is as the thousands of downloads a week 145 00:09:31,879 --> 00:09:33,360 and our guy maybe saying, well, why didn't I hire them? Back 146 00:09:33,399 --> 00:09:37,080 then? That was back in twenty fifteen, believe it or not, that 147 00:09:37,279 --> 00:09:41,159 you were just retired. I think the summer of two fifteen. Every time 148 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:43,720 in fourteen, so the summer of two fifteen when that came in, and 149 00:09:43,879 --> 00:09:48,440 Jim is right. He took offense that Jim believed that this wasn't a big 150 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:52,200 deal. And he says, I've been doing this for twenty years, and 151 00:09:52,279 --> 00:09:56,000 I'm telling you by all means, this is a big deal. And I 152 00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:58,279 said, I don't think that's what Jim means. He just means it. 153 00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:03,960 But to everything already went down to drain by that point. So we just 154 00:10:03,039 --> 00:10:07,759 figured, all right, no worries Jim, let's look for a different direction. 155 00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:11,679 And Jim's right. A lot of things came and went, and finally 156 00:10:11,759 --> 00:10:15,679 they came to us and they had a nice proposal and we agreed, let's 157 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:18,679 see where it goes. Let's see where it goes. Fitch. You had 158 00:10:18,679 --> 00:10:24,039 done a fair amount of podcasting with Jim Clementi and others on Real Crime Profile 159 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:31,960 Ray. Had you also done guest appearances on other true crime podcasts. Yes, 160 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:35,240 I was on Jim Clemente's podcast, not as often as Jim, but 161 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:39,879 I was on there. I was on a couple other ones after I wrote 162 00:10:39,919 --> 00:10:43,639 a book, like things started to come to Patrician in reference to that, 163 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:48,360 And that's another case that Jim and I work, But I was more intimately 164 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:50,519 involved in that book in that case, and it seemed to be a good 165 00:10:50,559 --> 00:10:54,480 story. So I wrote a book and it drawed a lot of attention, 166 00:10:54,519 --> 00:10:58,960 media attention. It still is. I just tell us the title. It's 167 00:10:58,080 --> 00:11:03,440 called thirty Years on the Run, the Hunt for the most prolific bank robber 168 00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:07,399 in American history. Wow, and Ray caught him. It's a book of 169 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:13,080 a happy ending. It is. It is. It is a happy ending. 170 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:16,720 He's believe it or not. He's actually out of prison. Now that's 171 00:11:16,759 --> 00:11:20,360 how long this thing. He got seventeen and a half years. It's happening 172 00:11:20,399 --> 00:11:22,799 back in two thousand and two. So he got out in late two thousand 173 00:11:22,799 --> 00:11:28,360 and seventeen. He's out of prison. And I tried to and maybe one 174 00:11:28,399 --> 00:11:31,960 of these days Jim will get a chance to. Jim and I actually interviewed 175 00:11:31,039 --> 00:11:35,440 him and he did on tape, and so we have about a two and 176 00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:39,759 a half hour tape of him live while he was incarcerated, and Jim and 177 00:11:39,799 --> 00:11:45,559 I used that as a training tape for other agencies looking at bank robbers because 178 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:50,240 he was unique. Here's a guy that he was not your typical bank robber. 179 00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:54,919 He began robbing banks in nineteen seventy three and was arrested in two thousand 180 00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:58,759 and two. Wow, that's a long period of time. And the funny 181 00:11:58,799 --> 00:12:03,320 thing bat it is when we first started looking at it, we were only 182 00:12:03,399 --> 00:12:07,360 under the oppression that he started robbing banks in nineteen eighty seven. So my 183 00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:09,799 first interview with him and said, why don't you He goes, what do 184 00:12:09,879 --> 00:12:11,159 you want? What do you want me to start? And say, why 185 00:12:11,159 --> 00:12:15,240 don't you start at the beginning? He says, and my first robbery in 186 00:12:15,279 --> 00:12:18,679 nineteen seventy three, I went, that was my first o ship moment. 187 00:12:18,840 --> 00:12:22,559 Wow, don't I wasn't ready for that. And I said, no, 188 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:26,320 why don't we start when you were a little kid, and how you brought 189 00:12:26,399 --> 00:12:30,440 up? Just to save myself because I wasn't prepared. But here's a guy 190 00:12:30,720 --> 00:12:35,960 that graduator from Villanova would a degree in electric engineering, went into the military 191 00:12:35,679 --> 00:12:39,200 Special Forces, but he didn't win as an officer, which he could have. 192 00:12:39,279 --> 00:12:43,039 He went as a non com. He came out and went back to 193 00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:46,919 the University of Penn got a master's degree in systems engineering, and then went 194 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:52,720 on to Penn State working on a PhD in statistics. So he was very 195 00:12:52,759 --> 00:12:56,399 accomplished and very intelligent, but he never worked at day in his life. 196 00:12:56,600 --> 00:13:01,679 His job was robbing banks the entire thirties. It seems like such a disconnect 197 00:13:01,679 --> 00:13:07,720 though, this guy with multiple degrees, he's clearly highly intelligent. Why the 198 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:11,159 heck would he go down the road of being a bank robber? I could 199 00:13:11,159 --> 00:13:16,639 tell you that, but then you'd have to buy the book. So we 200 00:13:16,840 --> 00:13:22,639 have to buy thirty Years on the Run in order and everything about a story. 201 00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:24,720 I'd be more than happy to come back, and I don't want to 202 00:13:24,919 --> 00:13:28,320 take up all the time here. I'd be more than happy to come back 203 00:13:28,679 --> 00:13:33,480 and talk about that at another time with both both you and Christinville. That's 204 00:13:33,639 --> 00:13:37,039 not fascinating. Love that it is a great story, and I was glad 205 00:13:37,279 --> 00:13:41,240 I help. I ran some interference with Ray, but to his credit, 206 00:13:41,279 --> 00:13:45,080 it was him and his fellow agents in the Philly division that really put the 207 00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:48,000 case together. In fact, you were pretty close Ray, and then nine 208 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:52,799 to eleven happened, And how to put everything on hold for? Was it 209 00:13:52,879 --> 00:13:58,120 a year even give or take eight months, about five months five months. 210 00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:01,799 Anyways, Jim so again eventually was made whatever and Ray can get more into 211 00:14:01,879 --> 00:14:05,279 that. But we worked out to do a behavioral a post conviction behavioral interview, 212 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:09,519 and we did, in fact recorded. We brought an FBI Academy videographer 213 00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:13,600 with us and the whole sound thing set up, and I guess what do 214 00:14:13,679 --> 00:14:18,600 we bring him over to Philadelphia Division? Ray? We yep on a subpoena 215 00:14:18,639 --> 00:14:20,919 of some sort and out of prison and that we interviewed him for about three 216 00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:24,039 or four hours. And a fascinating guy. And I done that with a 217 00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:28,840 few people in my life, even in retirement. With the bank robbers and 218 00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:33,080 other sexual assault type people. It's frustrating party he wants to jump over the 219 00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:37,399 desk and strangle them. Not so much Carl though the bank robber, because 220 00:14:37,399 --> 00:14:43,360 he was a polite bank robber. He actually did shoot definitely one person, 221 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:46,639 Ray too maybe and maybe do we have do we know for actually three but 222 00:14:46,919 --> 00:14:50,519 just would take a step back talk about jumping over the desk. I had 223 00:14:50,519 --> 00:14:54,120 to stopped him from that guy. At twelve ten. Jim did go over 224 00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:58,200 the desk after that guy and I had to grab him, just kidd and 225 00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:03,360 he didn't do that. There was, believe it or not, there was 226 00:15:03,519 --> 00:15:07,679 One was a bank manager in jim Thorpe that was shot that almost dipped. 227 00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:16,159 Another was a customer bank customer that was coming in from carrying her business earnings 228 00:15:16,159 --> 00:15:18,679 from the day to make a deposit and he shot her and she had a 229 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:22,559 graze wound in the year. And then there was another that he did not 230 00:15:22,639 --> 00:15:26,200 admit to, but both Jim and I believe he did, and that was 231 00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:31,879 a shooting of a police officer in nineteen eighty two up in Columbia, Pennsylvania, 232 00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:37,159 and he denies that he did that, but it just seems that in 233 00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:41,440 nineteen eighty two he stopped robbing banks and began back up again in nineteen eighty 234 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:46,120 seven. So he took a five year hiatus, and Jim and I both 235 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:48,399 asked him, why did you stop. He says, I just got to 236 00:15:48,039 --> 00:15:52,399 doing it and I wanted to do something else. So what he did. 237 00:15:52,519 --> 00:15:58,759 What he did is he started stealing books, textbooks from colleges and then he 238 00:16:00,159 --> 00:16:03,320 take those books in the back of his van and he would go up to 239 00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:07,600 Columbia University and he would post something that books for sale because they all use 240 00:16:07,679 --> 00:16:12,159 the same books right for sale, statistics books, math books, economics, 241 00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:15,320 and he would sell those. And I said, geez, Carl, how 242 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:19,639 much money could you make timely? Because I'd make thirty thousand dollars that's how 243 00:16:19,639 --> 00:16:25,360 many books he stole. It was amazing, I said, thirty thousand dollars. 244 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:29,799 That's unbelievable. Most people in the eighties, you were lucky if you 245 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:33,360 were making seventy thousand dollars a year. Before we move on, though, 246 00:16:33,519 --> 00:16:38,120 one thing I wanted to ask was when you told me that, if I'm 247 00:16:38,159 --> 00:16:42,720 doing this for memory, he served seventeen years or something like that, seventeen 248 00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:48,919 and a half. That strikes me as a light sentence for someone that actually 249 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:52,919 committed acts of violence during the commission of those bank robberies, because when you 250 00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:56,960 first said that, I thought to myself, this must be one of those 251 00:16:56,039 --> 00:17:03,200 gentlemanly bank robbers that doesn't shoot anyone or injure anyone. And yet he actually 252 00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:07,079 did injure at least two people. Shooting a police officer, as we know, 253 00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:11,759 is deadly serious business here. How did he manage to only serve less 254 00:17:11,759 --> 00:17:17,880 than twenty years despite being a violent criminal. He was arrested in two thousand 255 00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:23,480 and two, and although the shootings, although very egregious as they were, 256 00:17:25,279 --> 00:17:29,559 they were outside the statute of limitations are many of the bank robberies, so 257 00:17:29,559 --> 00:17:36,160 there were really only five robberies that were within the statute of limitations. So 258 00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:40,039 he entered into a seed plea. And what a seed plea is in federal 259 00:17:40,039 --> 00:17:45,400 court. It allows both the prosecutor and the defense attorney to agree to a 260 00:17:45,519 --> 00:17:51,599 sentence before he sentenced. Now, just because they agree to it does not 261 00:17:51,759 --> 00:17:56,640 mean that the judge has to abide. But in many cases it's discussed an 262 00:17:56,640 --> 00:18:02,319 open court and the judge gives I'll take it under consideration. But usually it 263 00:18:02,319 --> 00:18:07,359 works out in the benefit of the offender when that happens, This is fascinating. 264 00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:08,920 We gotta have you come back here and talk about this case. Ray, 265 00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:11,759 sure thing, Sure thing, Chris, and I'd love to. What 266 00:18:11,839 --> 00:18:15,960 would you say are some of the major goals that you have for your podcast 267 00:18:17,039 --> 00:18:21,279 other than telling an amazing story, which you both clearly can what are your 268 00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:25,200 the major things that you want to accomplish as you go through fits. I'll 269 00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:27,319 start with you and then kick it over to Ray. Yeah, we agreed 270 00:18:27,359 --> 00:18:32,440 early on that. I don't think this is too different from legitimate and professional 271 00:18:32,599 --> 00:18:34,799 podcasts or such as yourself. But we want to make a big part of 272 00:18:34,799 --> 00:18:41,119 our podcast about the victims. And Bill, no one knows victimhood more than 273 00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:45,759 you. You've lost a sister, I've lost good friends, police officers, 274 00:18:45,799 --> 00:18:49,480 other friends, and robberies and things like that, so it is very difficult, 275 00:18:49,599 --> 00:18:52,599 and we want to make sure that why we can joke a little bit 276 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:56,759 as we are now, sometimes in the beginning, sometimes at the end, 277 00:18:56,000 --> 00:19:00,880 but in the middle, we're dead serious about the topics at hand, and 278 00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:03,359 and then we try to give every episode at the end we try to give 279 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:10,279 some kind of a hints or suggestions or ideas about how a victim can best 280 00:19:10,319 --> 00:19:14,680 protect themselves. It may be directly related to the topic we just discussed, 281 00:19:14,799 --> 00:19:17,960 it may be indirect to it, but but we could be very basic, 282 00:19:18,039 --> 00:19:22,119 it could be more advanced and complex. And from street crimes to cyber crimes, 283 00:19:22,799 --> 00:19:26,799 it is about the victims. I'll never forget the first crime con in 284 00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:29,920 Indianapolis. I was there with Jim Clemente. I'm not sure if you were 285 00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:33,480 at that one, Christ and I know you came to the Indianapolis one now. 286 00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:37,119 I think my first one was Nashville. I met Indianapolis was the first 287 00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:40,559 one, and that's where we met, I think for the first time. 288 00:19:41,079 --> 00:19:42,880 But I remember Jim was like the MC for the whole thing and on the 289 00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:45,880 stage that make sure we have a moment in there about the Victims' all. 290 00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:48,000 Fitch, you're right. I think he's a brilliant guy, but he had 291 00:19:48,039 --> 00:19:52,599 so much on his mind that's had maybe ten or so seconds of silence for 292 00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:56,000 the victims before you we kick everything off. He's a good idea, and 293 00:19:56,079 --> 00:19:59,559 I hope crime con we're not as much involved in not as we used to 294 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:03,599 mounting his company and I have an involvement there too, But so yeah, 295 00:20:03,599 --> 00:20:06,799 it's about the victims. But of course try to tell the story in between. 296 00:20:07,119 --> 00:20:08,720 We're not lecturing anybody. We're not saying here's what you got to do. 297 00:20:10,079 --> 00:20:12,920 But I think the way we try to lay out our individual anecdotes or 298 00:20:14,039 --> 00:20:18,319 multiple anecdotes regarding you know, different types of criminals who may be committing the 299 00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:22,200 same types of crimes a listeners and viewers. At the end, here's how 300 00:20:22,279 --> 00:20:26,519 you can avoid being a victim yourself or a loved one, And by God, 301 00:20:26,599 --> 00:20:30,400 forbid it does happen. Here's what you know you can do to get 302 00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:33,799 through it. Ray you want to jump into Yeah, I think Jim said 303 00:20:33,799 --> 00:20:41,000 it beautifully. Our whole thing is to communicate to victims that they're not forgotten. 304 00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:45,960 No victim is ever forgotten here. So we do talk about things so 305 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:52,359 that we can help prepare those that were victims so they won't be revictimized, 306 00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:55,480 and those that have never been a victim to make sure they can avoid things 307 00:20:55,480 --> 00:21:00,839 by improving their situational awareness. The situational awareness is such a big part of 308 00:21:00,839 --> 00:21:06,279 what people do every single day, but people are so oblivious because they have 309 00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:10,440 their heads in their phones or their iPads and are not paying attention to what's 310 00:21:10,519 --> 00:21:15,680 going on around them. People need to do that more and more, especially 311 00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:19,599 in today's society. You see some of the violence that's occurring, and you 312 00:21:19,599 --> 00:21:23,119 see some of these things, and you look at the violence and people are 313 00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:29,640 being just jumped on in train stations, in the street, they're being knocked 314 00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:33,119 to the ground. So that situational awareness can help prevent you from maybe something 315 00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:37,799 like that happening to you if you're paying attention to your surroundings. One thing 316 00:21:37,839 --> 00:21:44,279 I was wondering about the two of you are both masterful storytellers. We often 317 00:21:44,319 --> 00:21:49,200 talk about cases that you've worked that you've solved. Are either of you comfortable 318 00:21:49,599 --> 00:21:56,160 talking about unsolved cases that you may have worked in the past. Sure, 319 00:21:56,519 --> 00:22:00,000 it's part of who we are. Yeah, one of the big one. 320 00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:03,680 It sticks with me as a nineteen ninety two eleven year old boy from Drexeld, 321 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:10,160 Pennsylvania that was down at the shore in Cape May, Mark Himbach and 322 00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:12,519 he disappeared Cape May, New Jersey, by the way, Yeah, Cape 323 00:22:12,519 --> 00:22:17,119 May, New Jersey. He disappeared and they've never found him, and they've 324 00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:21,440 never arrested anybody for that. And I remember I was a fairly new agent, 325 00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:26,240 maybe five six years on, and that winds up falling on me and 326 00:22:26,319 --> 00:22:30,000 coming to me, and I just I still think about that young boy. 327 00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:33,440 First thing the king in my mind when you mentioned it, that young child, 328 00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:37,079 and it's still something that just bothers me. Where is that young boy? 329 00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:41,839 And today that's nineteen nineteen ninety two, he'd be in his forties. 330 00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:47,400 Man, That's what's one that comes to mind for you. Yeah, this 331 00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:52,680 is it's easy to remember, but very difficult to discuss. And that is 332 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:56,559 the case of my good friend Joe Welsh, who was murdered in a street 333 00:22:56,640 --> 00:23:03,640 robbery in Philadelphia in the nineteen ninety seven. And I was out at Unibom, 334 00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:06,559 just finishing up there, and I get a phone call. Joe's been 335 00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:10,119 shot. He's forty two years old. It was middle of the afternoon in 336 00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:14,799 our old neighborhood, in our old only neighborhood of Philadelphia. And he lived 337 00:23:14,839 --> 00:23:18,400 about two weeks and they finally just pulled the ventilator and he was gone. 338 00:23:18,519 --> 00:23:22,759 And street crimes, robberies, Hey, give me your money. Probably a 339 00:23:22,839 --> 00:23:27,200 junkie. This is not what profilers necessarily. It's not our expertise or a 340 00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:32,279 tradecraft. Now I was a police officer, of course I handled crimes such 341 00:23:32,279 --> 00:23:36,039 as this, and I helped solve them. But and it wasn't an FBI 342 00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:41,480 jurisdiction either. It was a robbery homicide on the streets of Philadelphia. So 343 00:23:41,519 --> 00:23:44,880 as a Philly PD case, I worked with the detectives. I brought another 344 00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:48,480 profiler up with me. We went through the neighborhood, we went to the 345 00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:52,839 crime scene and interviewed some people. One guy was arrested, but let go. 346 00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:56,799 So I'm doing now my fourth and final book in my memoir series, 347 00:23:56,079 --> 00:24:00,119 and that's one of the chapters in that book. I out that case and 348 00:24:00,279 --> 00:24:06,079 I'm still friendly with his I was actually most friendly with Joe Welsh's older brother, 349 00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:10,440 John, who was actually one of the people shot at the First Move 350 00:24:10,559 --> 00:24:15,279 confrontation in nineteen seventy eight. He was a Philadelphia firefighter and he caught some 351 00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:21,240 shot shotgun rounds to the neck. I heard this on the radio live, 352 00:24:21,759 --> 00:24:23,960 and I actually left I was working that day and drove down to Philly. 353 00:24:25,079 --> 00:24:30,119 He was okay and along with a few other firefighters. But here twenty some 354 00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:34,880 years later, his younger brother gets murdered in a street robbery. And again 355 00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:38,839 it wasn't an FBI case. I didn't have my name on the case file, 356 00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:42,559 per se. But I said to the PD I want to help you 357 00:24:42,599 --> 00:24:45,720 guys solve this. I said to the family, I want to help you 358 00:24:45,759 --> 00:24:48,720 guys solve this. And to this day it hasn't been solved. And I 359 00:24:48,759 --> 00:24:52,680 don't want to get too ahead of myself here, but there'll be a special 360 00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:56,680 announcement at the time of the publication of my fourth book in which I include 361 00:24:56,720 --> 00:25:02,400 this chapter about Joe Welsh that it solved or I have a suspect, but 362 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:07,119 let's just say something I'm willing to do to help maybe refresh the memories of 363 00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:10,720 some people out there. So let's hope that works and finally, after all 364 00:25:10,759 --> 00:25:14,160 this time, we can get some resolution to this. One case that sticks 365 00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:18,799 in my craw was Joe Welsh in law enforcement at the time he was killed? 366 00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:22,200 Or he was a civilian? Nope, he was a civilian. Three 367 00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:25,559 o'clock in the afternoon. He had some work for the Philadelphia Department of License 368 00:25:25,599 --> 00:25:29,319 and Inspection, walking home from a training seminar to his car in his old 369 00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:33,079 neighborhood and someone just confronted them on the streets. And we have a witness 370 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:37,200 looking out the window and saw everything go down. It was very tough to 371 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:40,480 hear all that. But I do stand. I still plan on solving this 372 00:25:40,519 --> 00:25:42,839 case with help with the PHILLYPD. And we can talk about the boy in 373 00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:45,920 the box in a bit. But it took sixty five years to solve that 374 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:49,480 case, or at least identify the young boy. Maybe we can find the 375 00:25:49,519 --> 00:25:53,440 person who killed Joe Welsh and let the justice come for that person as it 376 00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:57,359 should be meeted. I remember that case, Jimmy, I remember you given 377 00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:00,519 a call up that I remember running down leads for you with that up in 378 00:26:00,519 --> 00:26:06,200 Philadelphia. I remember that was I'm sorry I never forgot about Joe either. 379 00:26:06,599 --> 00:26:10,039 I know that affects you. I'm really sorry that that's a that's something I 380 00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:12,000 appreciate that and we will get it solved. And I'm hoping this chapter in 381 00:26:12,039 --> 00:26:17,480 my book and get some more headlines out of it. We can bring some 382 00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:18,839 closure to it. Do you get me if you need anything? Thank you. 383 00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:25,559 Right you're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll be right back after this 384 00:26:25,599 --> 00:26:41,079 word from our sponsors, we're back here at Mind over Murder. As podcasters, 385 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:45,599 we all sort of work within the same true crime space and there's always 386 00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:51,960 the same sorts of major issues that we talk about in the crime injustice space, 387 00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:56,480 Unsolved cases and how to solve them, best uses for DNA, forensic 388 00:26:56,519 --> 00:27:00,440 genetic genealogy, that sort of thing. What are some of the big issues 389 00:27:00,759 --> 00:27:04,359 in the crime injustice space that the two of you want to discuss on the 390 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:10,480 pod I would have to say violence in general, it's off the charts. 391 00:27:10,519 --> 00:27:14,880 It's like it's like a war zone. Violence against the elderly, violence against 392 00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:21,079 women. There's an addiction epidemic out there, there is huge mental health issues 393 00:27:21,079 --> 00:27:25,680 out there. There's a big lack of trust between police officers and citizens. 394 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:30,359 There's a lot of issues that are facing police agencies this year. Think about 395 00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:34,559 and one of the things I'm on the Police Administration Committee for the IACPIT, 396 00:27:36,279 --> 00:27:41,319 and the IACP is the International Association of Chiefs of Police and this year's media 397 00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:44,599 is in San Diego and I go to the early meetings. But one of 398 00:27:44,599 --> 00:27:51,519 the biggest problems with police forces across the country is recruitment and retention. That's 399 00:27:51,559 --> 00:27:53,920 just a big thing. And look at the media coverage. Whence the last 400 00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:59,079 time you heard something pleasant about what the police do. Unless you're watch it 401 00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:03,440 on a YouTube, a TikTok someone sends you a TikTok thing, nobody ever 402 00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:07,720 talks about that. Police are so under the gun that no matter what they 403 00:28:07,799 --> 00:28:11,559 do, they're under the risk of prosecution. How do you work under that? 404 00:28:11,759 --> 00:28:14,480 What does that do for morale? What does that do for their wellness? 405 00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:18,240 Police officers want to be part of the solution, but I don't think 406 00:28:18,279 --> 00:28:22,319 the media and the public are giving the opportunity to do. What I'll add 407 00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:26,200 to that is both directly and indirectly. Yeah, I support the police, 408 00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:30,079 I'll say one hundred percent. But having said that, I've been involved in 409 00:28:30,079 --> 00:28:34,279 the arrest of police officers and FBI agents. If they're dirty, they should 410 00:28:34,319 --> 00:28:37,680 go down, of course due process. Of course, they've every right that 411 00:28:37,759 --> 00:28:41,160 everyone else does. But yeah, we do have to give the law enforcement 412 00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:47,480 more support today than ever because they are being decimated in the social media and 413 00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:52,039 regular media for that matter. I was interested in learning just a few months 414 00:28:52,039 --> 00:28:56,200 ago at v DOC of a new term that a prosecutor laid on me, 415 00:28:56,640 --> 00:28:59,279 and I was familiar with the term. So let's take it to the next 416 00:28:59,359 --> 00:29:02,599 level. Ray, just us what's happening in the streets, the subways in 417 00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:04,839 many of our large cities, the crime rates and other places. And so 418 00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:08,240 let's say there isn't arrest made. Well, now the person goes to trial 419 00:29:08,759 --> 00:29:12,960 and there's a jury. And for years we've heard the term CSI jury, 420 00:29:14,079 --> 00:29:18,599 and that is and Chris, and you mentioned some of these forensic capabilities early 421 00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:22,640 on when you asked this question, and it's like nowaday or then the CSI 422 00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:29,240 jury. If there wasn't DNA, if there wasn't clear whole color surveillance video, 423 00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:33,960 and of course throw in fingerprints. They were reluctant to convict someone based 424 00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:37,599 on watching the TV show CSI, in which every forty two minute episode with 425 00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:42,039 commercials, of course, wound up at being closed because one of these three 426 00:29:42,079 --> 00:29:48,559 factors kicked in. You don't necessarily need DNA fingerprints or surveillance cameras. There's 427 00:29:48,599 --> 00:29:52,920 plenty of direct and indirect evidence. There's plenty of circumstantial evidence that in fact, 428 00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:56,559 can lead to a conviction. Well, I learned just a few months 429 00:29:56,599 --> 00:29:59,640 ago from someone at the v Doc Society. She was a guest. She's 430 00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:03,400 a secutor in northern New Jersey. Now, the term the prosecutors us, 431 00:30:03,519 --> 00:30:07,880 besides a CSI jury, is a Netflix jury. And I said, boy, 432 00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:11,319 I think I know where you're going with that, But tell me, 433 00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:15,039 And she said, yeah, it's like people now watch Netflix and all these 434 00:30:15,119 --> 00:30:19,599 documentaries are about either someone was falsely accused and falsely convicted, or they raised 435 00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:26,119 serious questions about the legitimacy of an arrest and a conviction. And I know 436 00:30:26,359 --> 00:30:29,759 with the I guess the granddaddy of all podcasts, certainly in true crime, 437 00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:34,079 was Serial About I've not I forget his last name. Yeah, And I 438 00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:37,440 listened to that and very interesting. But I said, after listening to that, 439 00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:41,519 I said, we could pick there's a there's criminal investigation that was broken 440 00:30:41,559 --> 00:30:48,400 down into every single element and torn apart every witness identification. And just because 441 00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:52,559 something's called a documentary, it does not mean it's one hundred percent objective or 442 00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:56,200 even true. Producers, directors, they have their agendas too. Some of 443 00:30:56,240 --> 00:31:00,319 them is to sell that the documentary. I know that was PBA, I 444 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:03,119 think it or NPR, whatever it was, But I remember telling people said, 445 00:31:03,359 --> 00:31:07,039 it's interesting. They do raise some good questions. You can have the 446 00:31:07,079 --> 00:31:12,160 best brain surgeon in the world that performs a perfect operation, very complicated, 447 00:31:12,559 --> 00:31:18,680 very technical, and then you have a team that comes in afterwards and looks 448 00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:21,920 at everything she did and said, you know what, no, this could 449 00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:25,200 have been done better here. Now I have a problem with cutting this part 450 00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:27,440 of the left side of the brains. And I'm just using this, of 451 00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:32,599 course as an example. So that's where it's also problematic with Joris, this 452 00:31:32,759 --> 00:31:36,640 Netflix that they watch these shows that according to these documentaries, many of these 453 00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:38,400 people are innocent and shouldn't be in jail. And the last thing that's not 454 00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:41,880 to do with TV, but I teach I know Ray teaches in academia. 455 00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:47,759 I teach at Penwest University. I'm familiar with people teaching at Georgetown University. 456 00:31:47,799 --> 00:31:51,920 And there's something very popular in academia right now called the innocence problem. Boy, 457 00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:55,519 it sounds great and it's I'm all for it. I've even helped on 458 00:31:55,559 --> 00:31:59,599 a few cases. But you have some of these professors, usually lawyers, 459 00:32:00,079 --> 00:32:05,960 dems, coming in and they're convincing entire auditoriums of college students that virtually everyone 460 00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:09,440 in prison is innocent. And I think that is unhealthy. It's not the 461 00:32:09,519 --> 00:32:14,559 case. Are there some people in prison that shouldn't be there, possibly, 462 00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:17,880 but we're talking less than point zero zero zero one percent, and yeah, 463 00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:22,279 let's fight for those people. But I think we're getting school of thought put 464 00:32:22,279 --> 00:32:28,119 out there now that prosecutions are bad, convictions are bad in jail is good. 465 00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:31,480 And I know some academics in my field of forensic linguistics. They refused 466 00:32:31,519 --> 00:32:36,000 to work with law enforcement, They refused to work with prosecution. They'll only 467 00:32:36,039 --> 00:32:38,319 work for the defense. I remember twenty years ago talking to some folks, 468 00:32:38,519 --> 00:32:43,200 I would never work a capital case for the prosecution. Okay, I respect 469 00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:45,480 that you don't want to. You don't believe in the death penalty. I 470 00:32:45,559 --> 00:32:49,640 respect that, but now they've reached the point they won't work with law enforcement 471 00:32:49,799 --> 00:32:52,799 or prosecutors' offices at all. I said, we shouldn't the evidence supersede that 472 00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:57,400 you look at the evidence in the case. Wouldn't that just you could look 473 00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:00,079 at that objectively and say, hey, this guy, if it's a what 474 00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:02,599 was the case he did write this threatening letter or whatever? And they said 475 00:33:02,599 --> 00:33:05,960 no, No, I just I don't believe in the system anymore. And 476 00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:08,359 of course they're teaching students, and I just think it could be very problematic 477 00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:13,160 that way. Every case has to be looked at individually, and there's no 478 00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:15,720 problem doing that. But I think a lot of these students are being convinced 479 00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:20,359 and a lot of our public is being convinced that the criminal justice system is 480 00:33:20,359 --> 00:33:23,160 flawed and it's putting too many people in jail that don't belong there. It's 481 00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:27,839 the best system there's ever been, and that's just a falsehood that's being that's 482 00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:31,480 permeating throughout our society that I hope can be corrected. You mentioned the VIDAC 483 00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:36,880 Society a moment ago, and we know you're both members of VIDAC. For 484 00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:42,119 the benefit of our listeners, Can you explain what the society is and how 485 00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:46,920 it functions, right, Jim Doc VIDOCQ. It was the name of a 486 00:33:47,039 --> 00:33:54,640 French criminal, Jacques or Jean. I forget his personal Francis probably Francois French. 487 00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:00,440 Anyway, you remember the name. I didn't, but be a member 488 00:34:00,519 --> 00:34:04,240 for fifteen years. Anyway, he was a criminal in Paris and they locked 489 00:34:04,279 --> 00:34:07,799 him up and he realized the wrongs of his ways and he came out. 490 00:34:07,839 --> 00:34:10,480 And the police had first hired him just to help out solving crimes, and 491 00:34:10,559 --> 00:34:14,079 next thing you know, he became a police officer, and next thing you 492 00:34:14,079 --> 00:34:17,480 know, he became the chief of a police of the Paris Police department. 493 00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:23,079 And he's considered the first true detective. Sherlock Holmes's course was fictional, but 494 00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:28,559 France Sis v doc was real and he lived to eighty two years of age. 495 00:34:28,679 --> 00:34:32,199 So that's why v DOC only has eighty two full members privilege to be 496 00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:37,159 one of those full members, but there are hundreds of associate members. And 497 00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:40,039 they were founded really started with the boy in the box case. That case 498 00:34:40,119 --> 00:34:44,400 goes back to the late fifties, but they were reinvestigating this matter in the 499 00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:46,719 late nineteen eighties, a few people got together and said, why don't we 500 00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:50,800 start this little group the society. We had these lawyers, we know, 501 00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:53,199 we had these retired investigators. Let's meet for lunch once a month or so 502 00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:59,239 in the fancy Union League building in downtown Philadelphia and South Broad Street. And 503 00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:02,079 it grew from there. Now it's several hundred people strong, and we do 504 00:35:02,199 --> 00:35:06,760 meet the third Thursday of every month and a new case comes in. We're 505 00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:08,679 a nonprofit, of course, we actually pay to go to these lunches, 506 00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:13,679 and that's fine because we're contributing to the cause. We fly in the departments. 507 00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:17,239 Usually you won't get like NYPD or LAPD coming in, and not because 508 00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:21,239 one set of detectives is better than the other, but they have the funding 509 00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:23,000 and they have the personnel that they can handle a lot of their cases. 510 00:35:23,119 --> 00:35:28,159 We'll usually get smaller to mid size departments who come in and the cases at 511 00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:30,880 least five years old. We've had cases there ray probably fifty years old. 512 00:35:31,119 --> 00:35:35,440 Besides even boy in the box, and we'll sit and listen to the investigators. 513 00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:38,079 Rarely are the investigators in the front of the room, the ones who 514 00:35:38,119 --> 00:35:44,039 initially work the case. So we're getting like second or third generation investigators, 515 00:35:44,039 --> 00:35:47,119 because now there's a cold case squad formed in their department and they're now involved 516 00:35:47,119 --> 00:35:50,400 in it, and they're saying, all right, here's everything they did back 517 00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:52,880 then. Here's everything we have in front of us. Can you guys help 518 00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:58,039 put these things together? And we have DNA experts, we have profilers, 519 00:35:58,079 --> 00:36:02,360 forensic linguists. Ray has all kinds of backgrounds with evidence and hostage negotiation as 520 00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:07,920 a profiling coordinator and certainly an investigator. And we have other people that are 521 00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:12,639 lawyers and computer people, blood spatter people, and we're all together in one 522 00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:15,440 room. There's usually fifty or sixty of us. They do the PowerPoint presentation. 523 00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:21,159 Always buy dessert times when the autopsy pictures go up, which is strange. 524 00:36:21,599 --> 00:36:24,320 Oh god, people like Ray and I are used to that. That's 525 00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:31,320 why I need dessert, Jim. Okay, I don't deserve even today. 526 00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:35,119 I don't need dessert, Jim. There's a reason for it. Okay, 527 00:36:35,159 --> 00:36:37,280 someone's going to bring out some pictures dead bodies. Don't you like e dessert 528 00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:43,719 time? Oh my god, you and the sixth sense kid. But it's 529 00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:46,519 not even planned that way. It's just there's always a few autopsy pictures in 530 00:36:46,559 --> 00:36:51,000 there, and then we have a Q and A afterwards. We've started about 531 00:36:51,039 --> 00:36:52,760 two or three years ago. We don't just end it on that day, 532 00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:57,239 say thank you detectives, let us know if anything happens. We now have 533 00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:00,360 working teams that we all assign to each of these cases, maybe a dozen 534 00:37:00,559 --> 00:37:05,400 members each with varied backgrounds, and we'll do our best to do follow ups 535 00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:08,039 with these detectives for months, if not years down the line. They are 536 00:37:08,159 --> 00:37:13,159 very appreciative of their day or two in Philadelphia and that they know they're getting 537 00:37:13,159 --> 00:37:15,679 the top quality people who can talk to talk but also have walk the walk. 538 00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:19,800 To use that expression again in terms of what we can offer them back. 539 00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:22,679 And every case gets solved because they only bring us the toughest cases. 540 00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:28,960 Five ten could be thirty six years old someday, Bill, But there's actually 541 00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:31,719 advantages to working cases that are old that you don't have in the beginning. 542 00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:36,159 And I know our time is running out of here, but allegiances that were 543 00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:39,320 very strong back when a murder was committed, they somehow fade away when the 544 00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:43,760 big tough guy back then who maybe was the murder, he's now a little, 545 00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:46,559 fat, bald guy that doesn't quite have the power base that he used 546 00:37:46,559 --> 00:37:51,400 to and his cohorts, his ex girlfriend, ex wife, whatever. He 547 00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:53,400 doesn't instill the fear in them that he used to. So that's a big 548 00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:57,000 factor. And what we say, try to go back and interview this person 549 00:37:57,039 --> 00:38:00,679 again. Reinterview people, maybe have them wear a wire all legally, of 550 00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:04,800 course, check their phone records, things that most investigators will have done already. 551 00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:07,159 But we try to take them to the next level. And sometimes they'll 552 00:38:07,199 --> 00:38:10,880 come in with one or two suspects. Sometimes it's five suspects or more. 553 00:38:12,199 --> 00:38:15,960 Sometimes no suspects at all, and that's when we'll try to paint the profile 554 00:38:15,079 --> 00:38:19,199 for them. When there's no suspect, but if they have four or five, 555 00:38:19,519 --> 00:38:22,599 we'll do our best to prioritize them. Usually we can roll out two 556 00:38:22,679 --> 00:38:25,360 or three say I would say it's this number one guy here. I would 557 00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:29,960 do everything in your power to eliminate him, and if you do, then 558 00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:31,760 go to number two. But boy, everything you've told us, this seems 559 00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:36,199 to be the culprit here. And the investigators from all over the country, 560 00:38:36,199 --> 00:38:38,400 We've even had them come in from Canada already. They really appreciate the help 561 00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:42,519 we can give. And we definitely have solved some cases, including that one 562 00:38:42,559 --> 00:38:45,960 that's sixty five years old. The one thing that Jim says, I'm also 563 00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:49,840 a full member with the society, But the one thing that Jim talks about 564 00:38:50,039 --> 00:38:54,360 is the disciplines. You have to understand that any discipline that you could think 565 00:38:54,400 --> 00:39:00,199 of, from toxicology to blood spatter to fingerprinting tool or fee, no matter 566 00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:05,920 what it is, there's somebody within this society that has an expertise. It's 567 00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:09,519 a subject matter expert in that area that they bring to the table. So 568 00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:15,079 we have the ability that nobody else in this country has is to have every 569 00:39:15,119 --> 00:39:21,039 discipline covered, looking at it, even genealogy. We have everything covered, 570 00:39:21,079 --> 00:39:24,920 which makes us so unique. One thing I'll mentioned because I know our listeners 571 00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:30,159 are going to bring it up after listening to this fascinating part of the conversation. 572 00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:34,679 I want to make it clear. The Colonial Parkuay murders families did request 573 00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:39,920 that the FBI, Norfolk and Newport News offices take the Colonial Parkway murders to 574 00:39:40,079 --> 00:39:45,599 the VDOC Society, and v I turned us down. This was in twenty 575 00:39:45,039 --> 00:39:50,840 ten. I believe I was involved in the formal request and they turned us 576 00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:53,719 down, and you get the usual bureaucratic answer. It's an open case. 577 00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:59,119 We don't feel like we want to bring in outside experts. I'm not saying 578 00:39:59,159 --> 00:40:02,079 I wouldn't be willing to revisit that. I know people have said to us 579 00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:07,400 who follow the podcast, have you ever considered the v doc society? And 580 00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:12,079 I know that this conversation will steer people back in that direction. I'd certainly 581 00:40:12,119 --> 00:40:15,079 be willing to revisit it, but I do want our listeners to know that 582 00:40:15,119 --> 00:40:20,360 we did ask and we were turned down before. I still think it would 583 00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:23,159 be a great case for a VIDC. Although it's a very complicated case. 584 00:40:23,519 --> 00:40:28,760 We've had complicated cases and we can handle them, and every case has to 585 00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:30,800 go by its own merits. I'll be careful here, Bill, but I 586 00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:35,760 really wish perhaps a new team of FBI agents. And I forgot it was 587 00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:38,480 as long as thirty six years. What the hell do they have to lose 588 00:40:38,519 --> 00:40:43,000 at this point in a closed society of experts. We're not saying to a 589 00:40:43,079 --> 00:40:45,880 documentary and yet, although that may be down the line, something to do 590 00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:50,320 too. I know there have been some media shows on that, but they 591 00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:53,440 get really into the depth of this investigation. What the hell do they have 592 00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:58,280 to lose after all this time, So I disagree with their logic there, 593 00:40:58,519 --> 00:41:01,679 I agree with you, but maybe they don't know about and I don't know. 594 00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:06,559 But do we know if this case was ever sent down to BAU, 595 00:41:07,119 --> 00:41:10,280 yes, or look at its actually been looked at by BAU more than once. 596 00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:15,280 That's still not a problem. There's been cases that have been looked at 597 00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:19,079 by BAU that have still come to the Vduck Society. We've been able to 598 00:41:19,119 --> 00:41:22,400 help because you get a fresh set of eyes on it, which is exactly 599 00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:24,880 what you need. You need these fresh set of eyes to give you some 600 00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:29,960 insight that you may not be able to see because your judgment is clouded or 601 00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:32,400 because it's so old. But some of the guys in the Vduck Society are 602 00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:37,199 pretty old too, So not us, not me and you, Jim. 603 00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:40,360 But there's some guys there and ladies that are pretty old that have been around 604 00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:45,000 the block a few times so they know what to look for. So yeah, 605 00:41:45,039 --> 00:41:46,519 I hope that. I hope we get a chance to take a look 606 00:41:46,519 --> 00:41:50,760 at that Bill, I really do. Yeah, And unfortunately we can't reach 607 00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:53,960 out. The Rock doesn't call these local or state police departments or FBI. 608 00:41:54,159 --> 00:41:58,039 Hey, we'd really like it to be. It has to be the initiation 609 00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:00,079 of the peoven the family. They can request all they want to us, 610 00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:05,159 they really have to go to the investigative agency itself. So there's a number 611 00:42:05,159 --> 00:42:07,360 of cases of which I am familiar. I would love to just run it 612 00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:10,000 ourselves at the DOC, but of course we can't do that. We need 613 00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:15,719 the inside investigators that can really bring us the information that can help solve the 614 00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:20,039 case. It's an intriguing possibility, without question. So I know both of 615 00:42:20,039 --> 00:42:23,400 you are authors. We've referenced Ray's book already, and Jim has references of 616 00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:28,079 course, But let's get it on the record for anybody who wants to embark 617 00:42:28,119 --> 00:42:30,800 on a literary journey through your books. So Ray, give us the details 618 00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:34,920 about yours and where people can find it, and then Fits give us yours. 619 00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:37,159 The name of the book is thirty Years on the Run, the Hunt 620 00:42:37,159 --> 00:42:43,320 for the most prolific bank robber and American in history. It's about an individual 621 00:42:43,519 --> 00:42:46,480 that was involved in robbing banks for thirty years before he was caught. He's 622 00:42:46,599 --> 00:42:52,719 unique. I gave you some insight into that. If you're interested in purchasing 623 00:42:52,719 --> 00:42:54,760 this book, you can do so on Amazon or you can go to my 624 00:42:54,880 --> 00:43:00,559 website Raymond Jacar dot com and you can order right off my web if you'd 625 00:43:00,559 --> 00:43:04,880 like to do it there as well. M and Jacar dot com and fits. 626 00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:07,320 Go ahead and talk about your books, please, Ray. When people 627 00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:10,440 buy your books from you, do you give them free sign to posters with 628 00:43:10,519 --> 00:43:15,719 cool statements on them? Because I do? Now. I knew you were 629 00:43:15,760 --> 00:43:19,440 gonna say it. Not you and your bvds or anything, is it, 630 00:43:19,519 --> 00:43:22,400 Jim? Jeez? No, Ray, there's your fantasy life aside for a 631 00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:28,440 minute, for a minute, anyway. My book series is a Journey to 632 00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:30,519 the Center of the Mind. All three books have the same title, and 633 00:43:30,559 --> 00:43:34,599 I'm now doing the fourth one. It'll be out in the fall, and 634 00:43:34,639 --> 00:43:37,800 by popular demand, I put the third book I had. I hired a 635 00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:40,159 professional voiceover guy to do the third book. He did a great job. 636 00:43:40,239 --> 00:43:44,840 In fact, it was nominated for an award the Audio Book, and I 637 00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:46,800 didn't win, but it was still being nominated was pretty cool. People said, 638 00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:49,719 Hey, this guy was great, Jim, this guy was great, 639 00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:52,159 But I want to hear your voice, I said, I put off writing. 640 00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:54,440 I wrote three books in five years and I needed a little bit of 641 00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:59,480 a break. And so now just back in February or so, I started 642 00:43:59,519 --> 00:44:01,679 doing my fourth book, would be the final book in my memoir series, 643 00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:05,760 also a Journey to the Center of the Mine, and it will be me 644 00:44:06,239 --> 00:44:09,639 narrating the second half of my FBI career and the exciting stuff that happened in 645 00:44:09,719 --> 00:44:15,280 retirement in the fifteen years since I've retired, but still a very busy profiler 646 00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:17,760 and forensic linguist. But I want to add in there too. Separate from 647 00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:23,000 those that book series, I also did an audio book called The Fits Files 648 00:44:23,239 --> 00:44:29,119 man Hunt Unibomber, and just a few years after the mini series came out 649 00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:34,639 it was so popular. Of course, Manhunt Unibomber's Sam Worthington portrayed me in 650 00:44:34,679 --> 00:44:37,039 that series. It's eight part was on Discovery Channel, then on Netflix. 651 00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:40,920 Now I think it's only on Amazon and the Discovery Channel website. But I 652 00:44:40,960 --> 00:44:45,239 did a companion piece, if you will, in which it's eight chapters in 653 00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:51,800 this audiobook, and each chapter relates to one of the episodes in Manhunt Unibomber, 654 00:44:51,840 --> 00:44:54,599 and I break down for the listeners what actually happened, what didn't happen, 655 00:44:54,679 --> 00:44:58,679 why the writers and directors made it this way. And I also interviewed 656 00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:01,119 Jim Clemente because he was one of the co creators of it, the director. 657 00:45:01,159 --> 00:45:05,920 I interviews Greggy Antennas, Andrew Sidrowski, the head writer, and a 658 00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:08,840 couple of the prop guys are are really cool too in the stories they tell 659 00:45:08,920 --> 00:45:13,440 in terms of how they make a series from twenty or twenty five years back, 660 00:45:13,639 --> 00:45:16,000 and how they get old fax machines and old computers and that's just part 661 00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:19,800 of it, and even guns and how that stuff works. So A Journey 662 00:45:19,840 --> 00:45:22,760 to Center Mind is a series Amazon and through my website you get a free 663 00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:29,280 cool poster. Go through me directly, and also Amazon and audio dot com 664 00:45:29,519 --> 00:45:34,599 where the Fitz files man hunt unibummer, what's the poster to pick? I 665 00:45:34,679 --> 00:45:37,079 was actually going to reach for mine so I could show it to you. 666 00:45:37,159 --> 00:45:45,800 I don't Jim has a copy. Give him a second. It's a pretty 667 00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:50,920 good looking to see this, Fray. You're you think you're funny here, 668 00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:53,840 don't you? No, not at all. Rays looks for ideas to help 669 00:45:53,920 --> 00:45:58,800 market thirty years on the run his book. He wants to be as successful 670 00:45:58,840 --> 00:46:00,920 as you are. Fits. Why can't I find them? I don't want 671 00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:06,440 to say we're seeing the best side of it right now, Jim, don't 672 00:46:06,440 --> 00:46:12,239 worry, you know, I have my relatively close by there. Oh my 673 00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:15,639 god. But if I leave it up there, someone will print it out 674 00:46:15,679 --> 00:46:17,679 and they copy. Hey, let me tell you what's happening real quick to 675 00:46:17,719 --> 00:46:22,480 me. People are contacting me by mail and online and Ray, this is 676 00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:25,239 going to happen to you. And there's pictures of Ted Kazinski and mugshots and 677 00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:28,679 they want me to sign them. They say it's for their kids, and 678 00:46:28,760 --> 00:46:31,760 their kids are in wheelchairs and hospital beds. And one of them sent them 679 00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:35,519 to my actual address. And how did they find that out? And I 680 00:46:35,599 --> 00:46:38,840 waited a while. It's a former address. Now it really is all right, 681 00:46:38,920 --> 00:46:42,639 your kids in a wheelchair, right, you're sick, you're elderly. 682 00:46:42,719 --> 00:46:44,800 I signed them. It's only three or four of them up, so it's 683 00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:47,440 Ted Kazinski, it's me at the cabin. They're online. They print them 684 00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:51,400 out in nice stock paper. I signed them. You can guess where this 685 00:46:51,480 --> 00:46:57,480 is going. They're on eBay seventy five, one hundred dollars. There's a 686 00:46:57,519 --> 00:47:00,159 guy now wants my business card because he wants to teach his son how to 687 00:47:00,239 --> 00:47:07,480 be my head. Just sign the business card, so we can put it 688 00:47:07,559 --> 00:47:12,000 up in his little glass case. And and I haven't responded yet, and 689 00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:16,559 I'm thinking there saying if you put it on eBay, I want whatever running 690 00:47:16,599 --> 00:47:21,239 here. So did you get my letter, Jim? I asked for money, 691 00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:25,679 Yeah, but you sent me your picture, which automatically negated the deal. 692 00:47:25,800 --> 00:47:29,079 I can see you whenever I want. I know. That's terrible, 693 00:47:29,079 --> 00:47:32,719 and it's we're gonna have to We're gonna have to continue this. This has 694 00:47:32,760 --> 00:47:37,920 been an amazing conversation. We're gonna invite you on to our show. How 695 00:47:37,920 --> 00:47:40,400 about that? Absolutely? We would love that. Okay, we would love 696 00:47:40,440 --> 00:47:45,320 that so much. That is gonna wrap for this episode of mind Over Murder 697 00:47:45,360 --> 00:47:51,239 with Jim Fitzgerald and Ray Card. Their podcast is Cold Red. Where can 698 00:47:51,280 --> 00:47:54,440 we find the podcast, gentlemen, It's on Apple, It's on iHeart, 699 00:47:54,559 --> 00:47:59,880 on YouTube. There's clips there if you just google it old red little pop 700 00:48:00,119 --> 00:48:04,480 up and you'd be good to go. Fantastic. The podcast is Cold Red. 701 00:48:04,559 --> 00:48:07,159 Jim, Ray, thank you so much for joining us. As always, 702 00:48:07,159 --> 00:48:09,320 it is a pleasure to have you here. Thank you, thank you 703 00:48:09,360 --> 00:48:13,119 for having us. We appreciate it. That's going to do it for this 704 00:48:13,159 --> 00:48:25,199 episode of mind Over Murder. We'll see you next time. Mind Over Murder 705 00:48:25,320 --> 00:48:31,280 is a production of Absolute Zero and Another Dog Productions. Our executive producers are 706 00:48:31,320 --> 00:48:37,639 Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. Our 707 00:48:37,719 --> 00:48:42,760 theme music is by Kevin McLeod. Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with 708 00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:47,039 Coral Space Media. You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 709 00:48:47,159 --> 00:48:52,079 You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway Murders on Facebook, 710 00:48:52,360 --> 00:48:55,639 and finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at Bill Thomas. Five 711 00:48:55,760 --> 00:49:00,679 six. Thank you for listening to mind O Murder.