WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.040 --> 00:00:03.720 Hey guys, this is Laura Van Award. I played Kara Kent slash Supergirl 2 00:00:03.879 --> 00:00:47.719 on Smallville, and you are listening to Always hold on to Smallville. Welcome 3 00:00:47.759 --> 00:00:50.719 to Always hold on to Smallville. In this podcast, we talk about each 4 00:00:50.719 --> 00:00:53.920 and every episode of the Young Superman Show The Rep in two thousand and one 5 00:00:53.920 --> 00:00:57.640 to two thousand and eleven on the w B and the c W unless we 6 00:00:57.679 --> 00:01:03.319 don't. It's another Superman Special twenty two and I'm joined by from Digging for 7 00:01:03.439 --> 00:01:07.439 Kryptonite. Mister Anthony Desiata was up empty. Thank you for having me back. 8 00:01:07.519 --> 00:01:11.159 I figured by now your audience has hopefully finished up our very lengthy, 9 00:01:11.560 --> 00:01:17.719 enjoyable discussion of the doomsday episode of Smallville. I hope. I know they've 10 00:01:17.920 --> 00:01:22.680 they've gone through a few commutes and have gotten through it. And yeah, 11 00:01:22.680 --> 00:01:25.359 that was a real fun one to do. And uh, you know, 12 00:01:25.480 --> 00:01:29.879 spoilers for Superman and Lowas season three. It's interesting that we did that before 13 00:01:30.159 --> 00:01:34.280 the season finale. I know, if only we knew, as we were 14 00:01:34.319 --> 00:01:37.560 talking off Mike, if we had known, there's no doubt we would have 15 00:01:37.599 --> 00:01:40.680 passed the three hour mark. So I think for everyone's sake it was good 16 00:01:40.719 --> 00:01:44.760 we didn't know we captin under three hours, but it was. Again, 17 00:01:44.799 --> 00:01:47.159 I thank you for having me on for that, as I said in that 18 00:01:47.200 --> 00:01:49.519 episode, and I've continued to think about it since it was very cathartic and 19 00:01:49.560 --> 00:01:53.120 I lay I put a lot to rest about my frustrations with that episode. 20 00:01:53.239 --> 00:01:57.480 And then Superman and Lowis came along and redeemed a lot as well. So 21 00:01:57.719 --> 00:02:00.319 yeah, I'm in a much better place when it comes to the end season 22 00:02:00.359 --> 00:02:02.760 eight of Smallville now than I was a couple of months ago. And just 23 00:02:02.840 --> 00:02:05.719 you know, if you're not watching the band lois I thing, we're vague 24 00:02:05.760 --> 00:02:07.959 enough, you can go figure it out. Connect the dots. If you 25 00:02:07.959 --> 00:02:10.360 spend any time online over the past a couple of weeks, you know exactly 26 00:02:10.439 --> 00:02:15.560 what we're talking about. But also, if you spend any time online in 27 00:02:15.560 --> 00:02:19.400 the last couple of weeks, you might be just kind of over the flash. 28 00:02:19.479 --> 00:02:22.520 You might be sick of the flash. You might be hungry for more 29 00:02:22.599 --> 00:02:27.039 conversation about the flash. The flash as as week predicted good or bad, 30 00:02:27.080 --> 00:02:32.680 win or lose. It is this this full come point of DC on film. 31 00:02:34.159 --> 00:02:38.520 We've been moving towards this for years. I want to talk about that 32 00:02:38.560 --> 00:02:45.439 in a minute. But it's a Superman special because there, you know, 33 00:02:45.479 --> 00:02:51.039 there's four Superman in the Flash. You got CGI Henry Cavill, you got 34 00:02:51.080 --> 00:02:57.080 CGI Nicolas Cage, he got CGI George Reeves from another exciting episode of the 35 00:02:57.120 --> 00:02:59.159 INVENTI of Superman. So great for you to be here to talk about that 36 00:02:59.159 --> 00:03:02.199 anything, sure, and then of course you have cgikers to Reef accompanied by 37 00:03:02.240 --> 00:03:07.599 CGI Helens later. So yeah, that's just it's really just an excuse for 38 00:03:07.560 --> 00:03:10.599 Anthony United to get on a microphone here and talk about the Flash, talk 39 00:03:10.639 --> 00:03:14.879 about the aftermath of the Flash Shoe. Because we both did our own episodes. 40 00:03:14.960 --> 00:03:17.039 You know, I did always onto the Flash for my Patreon, and 41 00:03:17.159 --> 00:03:21.280 as we always do when a new DC movie comes out, me and Lance 42 00:03:21.319 --> 00:03:24.560 Laster kind of have our night ove reaction. You did actually, wasn't even 43 00:03:24.680 --> 00:03:28.080 was it digging for Justice for you or was it a main episode? Actually, 44 00:03:28.120 --> 00:03:30.240 now that I think about it, I did it on the main Digging 45 00:03:30.240 --> 00:03:34.360 for Kryptonite feed for the reasons you just said, because of the Superman presence, 46 00:03:34.400 --> 00:03:38.919 and it's just such a moment within the larger DC filmography, it felt 47 00:03:38.919 --> 00:03:44.039 worthy of putting it out there for everyone. And I have to say, 48 00:03:44.439 --> 00:03:46.639 you know, our audience is nowhere in the in the realm of yours, 49 00:03:46.639 --> 00:03:50.479 but we do all right. But that episode in particular popped off a lot 50 00:03:50.520 --> 00:03:53.319 more than than other ones. And I'm happy. I'm always happy for folks 51 00:03:53.319 --> 00:03:55.960 to come on board and listen to Digging for Kryptonite. But it's like, 52 00:03:57.039 --> 00:04:00.159 I'm kicking myself because I put so much thought into what we call her, 53 00:04:00.240 --> 00:04:03.400 and I designed all these multipart events and pairing works and how we're going to 54 00:04:03.479 --> 00:04:08.280 talk about it. And the thing that I think it's the most traction is 55 00:04:08.360 --> 00:04:11.759 a discussion of this movie where I came in a little fired up. But 56 00:04:12.120 --> 00:04:15.719 yeah, but it's all right. I'm glad for people to listen, and 57 00:04:15.919 --> 00:04:18.600 I very much enjoyed your Patreon discussion and I loved I love that you guys 58 00:04:18.639 --> 00:04:24.839 did it right after you saw it, because there was definitely I think a 59 00:04:24.879 --> 00:04:29.160 lot of the content, a lot of the reactions and opinions would would be 60 00:04:29.199 --> 00:04:31.399 the same and have probably remained the same, but just the feeling of it, 61 00:04:31.439 --> 00:04:34.160 there was something I don't know, raw maybe isn't the best word, 62 00:04:34.199 --> 00:04:38.079 but it was just it was it was so in the moment, so it 63 00:04:38.160 --> 00:04:41.639 was cool I enjoyed it. I feel like it's aged pretty well. I 64 00:04:41.720 --> 00:04:44.480 feel like when we were when we were talking about it, people were I 65 00:04:44.560 --> 00:04:47.800 mean, I posted the my initial feelings that that's a talking about you know, 66 00:04:48.000 --> 00:04:51.759 doing numbers, you know, not that I'm sitting here and counting the 67 00:04:53.079 --> 00:04:55.959 likes and comments. I get. But but that one of my most quote 68 00:04:56.079 --> 00:05:00.040 unquote successful tweets of all time was me just tweeting like, hey, I 69 00:05:00.079 --> 00:05:01.399 don't know what people are talking about. I saw this and I didn't like 70 00:05:01.439 --> 00:05:04.160 it. And the people who came after me and the things they said it 71 00:05:04.199 --> 00:05:09.959 was incredible. I feel like the dust is settled. I mean, other 72 00:05:10.000 --> 00:05:13.920 blockbusters are coming out now and the flash is just in the rearview mirror, 73 00:05:14.399 --> 00:05:16.240 which is is only. I mean, we're recording this less than a month 74 00:05:16.240 --> 00:05:19.560 after. It's crazy. It came out, by the way, when you 75 00:05:19.600 --> 00:05:23.199 said you think it aged well, and I started to laugh. It was 76 00:05:23.240 --> 00:05:28.560 because I thought you were referring to the movie itself and that I was a 77 00:05:28.600 --> 00:05:30.680 fraking of my podcast. Yeah that no, I'm on board. So I 78 00:05:30.720 --> 00:05:33.480 just wanted to clarify, why's he laughing at my episode not laughing at your 79 00:05:33.480 --> 00:05:36.920 episode? I thought you were talking about the movie again. Less than a 80 00:05:36.920 --> 00:05:40.560 month after comes out, we're heard talking about it. The dust is settled, 81 00:05:40.720 --> 00:05:43.160 it's almost it's it's sad that you can do and that speaks a lot 82 00:05:43.160 --> 00:05:46.480 for the movie itself on honestly, that we can kind of do a you 83 00:05:46.519 --> 00:05:48.560 know, a post mortem on it when it's less than a month out of 84 00:05:48.680 --> 00:05:51.800 out of the gate. Huh. Yeah, it's insane. It's insane. 85 00:05:51.800 --> 00:05:55.920 I took my father to see it on Father's Day or the day before, 86 00:05:56.560 --> 00:06:00.079 so not all that long ago. And I don't know exactly when this will 87 00:06:00.120 --> 00:06:02.920 be dropping, but by the time people hear this, they might be able 88 00:06:02.959 --> 00:06:11.040 to buy or rent it digitally. So it's it's really pretty insane. Yeah. 89 00:06:11.120 --> 00:06:14.720 So, and I think a lot of the a lot of me and 90 00:06:15.199 --> 00:06:18.040 and you as well, because we talked about it before after enduring it was 91 00:06:18.079 --> 00:06:20.480 all happening. It was all happening, like the flash is coming as a 92 00:06:20.560 --> 00:06:28.120 referring to a lot of the the energy and perhaps the response has come from 93 00:06:28.879 --> 00:06:32.600 for months being told that this was the greatest common movie of all time. 94 00:06:33.600 --> 00:06:38.000 Ezra Miller had their issues. But don't worry, folks, Why once you 95 00:06:38.040 --> 00:06:39.800 see this, you're not going to worry about that. I mean, these 96 00:06:39.800 --> 00:06:44.439 are the things that that that we have been told for months, um and 97 00:06:44.439 --> 00:06:46.680 then and then for it to be such a disconant because you can you know, 98 00:06:46.959 --> 00:06:51.199 look, movies can movies are subjective, artist subjective. I'm not here 99 00:06:51.240 --> 00:06:56.399 telling you that if you liked it, then you're wrong. But when you 100 00:06:56.439 --> 00:07:00.279 see a movie like this and people to tell you that it's it's the greatest 101 00:07:00.319 --> 00:07:04.360 movie they've ever seen, and it's up there with the Dart, it's The 102 00:07:04.439 --> 00:07:08.360 Dark Night, or it's Superman in the movie, or it's Iron Man, 103 00:07:08.519 --> 00:07:12.759 or it's Logan or whatever. I'm listening off these you know, well regarded 104 00:07:13.199 --> 00:07:16.040 universally praised superhero movies. I can't even see that. I can't even see 105 00:07:16.079 --> 00:07:19.120 the argument for that, and I welcome hear other people's opinions about it, 106 00:07:19.160 --> 00:07:21.800 so please. You know, people have been happy to share them and I've 107 00:07:21.800 --> 00:07:28.720 read them. Um but but but the buzz was just so overwhelmingly positive about 108 00:07:28.759 --> 00:07:31.519 this, and not just from you know, you expect them that. Of 109 00:07:31.519 --> 00:07:34.560 course, you have marketing from the studios, right, they have all these 110 00:07:34.560 --> 00:07:38.639 fans screenings, and you have these people just losing their minds. You have 111 00:07:38.680 --> 00:07:41.680 these you see these these reviews where you know, people are just like, 112 00:07:41.680 --> 00:07:45.160 oh, it's it's it's it's amazing, it's a celebration of all things DC. 113 00:07:45.879 --> 00:07:47.920 And I just and that's where that tweet got me in trouble, because 114 00:07:47.920 --> 00:07:51.160 it's like, I honestly don't think I saw the same movie as a lot 115 00:07:51.160 --> 00:07:56.040 of these people, and it just I just left so confused to disconnect between 116 00:07:56.360 --> 00:07:59.800 what was promised, what was hyped, and what was was received by me 117 00:08:00.000 --> 00:08:03.439 at least was so huge, and I think that's why I've wanted to talk 118 00:08:03.439 --> 00:08:09.160 about it and try to unpack it. That's the thing, because you can 119 00:08:09.160 --> 00:08:11.439 talk about the movie itself, and we have and we will, but there 120 00:08:11.560 --> 00:08:16.879 is this whole other piece where, of course any studio, any filmmaker, 121 00:08:18.279 --> 00:08:20.360 they're there to sell a movie to you, so of course there's always going 122 00:08:20.360 --> 00:08:26.800 to be that pr spin. But when it rises to the level of what 123 00:08:26.079 --> 00:08:33.919 feels like such manufactured hyperbolic bs, that's when I feel it for me, 124 00:08:35.279 --> 00:08:37.799 it gets frustrating, and that's what it felt like was happening here. Now 125 00:08:39.120 --> 00:08:41.200 I'll give the same disclaimer here that I gave on my own show, and 126 00:08:41.240 --> 00:08:45.840 to echo what you just said for anyone, like for anyone listening to this 127 00:08:45.879 --> 00:08:48.360 who loved the movie, awesome. That's the one thing I do want to 128 00:08:48.360 --> 00:08:52.279 be clear. I did not like this movie. I have some fundamental objections 129 00:08:52.320 --> 00:08:56.559 to it. I also have a lot of frustration with the way it was 130 00:08:56.320 --> 00:09:01.440 kind of shoved in our faces. But for anyone who loved it, that's 131 00:09:01.480 --> 00:09:05.000 great. Like, I don't want to take away from that, And I 132 00:09:05.159 --> 00:09:09.399 can, even though I didn't land here, I can see how certain things 133 00:09:09.440 --> 00:09:13.279 might break differently for certain audience members, and you might get more mileage out 134 00:09:13.279 --> 00:09:15.679 of this movie than I did or than you did. So for anyone who 135 00:09:16.120 --> 00:09:20.919 loves this thing, that's great. I wish I did. Anytime I'm critical 136 00:09:20.960 --> 00:09:24.080 about something, it's always in the context of my man, I wish you 137 00:09:24.080 --> 00:09:26.480 know kind of your point, Like I wish I saw what you saw, 138 00:09:26.519 --> 00:09:28.960 but I didn't. But yeah, I mean, I feel like in this 139 00:09:30.000 --> 00:09:35.039 case, it felt more manufactured. And I know we both talked about this 140 00:09:35.080 --> 00:09:39.399 and actually weirdly discovered that we were at the same advanced screening of Batman Year 141 00:09:39.480 --> 00:09:45.600 one at San Diego Comic Con twenty eleven. Yes, but I'm glad that 142 00:09:45.639 --> 00:09:48.200 we had that shared experience. We didn't know each other we were in the 143 00:09:48.240 --> 00:09:52.799 same space, had no idea but a funny connection point. But we've both 144 00:09:52.840 --> 00:09:56.720 been in that position where you get to see something early, surrounded by fans, 145 00:09:56.919 --> 00:10:00.960 you know, people involved with the project or there, and I think 146 00:10:01.000 --> 00:10:03.480 it it. I mean from personal experience. I know I came out of 147 00:10:03.480 --> 00:10:07.679 that screening and other advanced convention screening is like really high on whatever it was 148 00:10:07.720 --> 00:10:11.039 I just saw, and then you go back to it later and it's like, 149 00:10:11.120 --> 00:10:13.320 Okay, you know it was good. Maybe it wasn't as good as 150 00:10:13.320 --> 00:10:16.879 I felt it was in the moment. Now again, another disclaimer for anyone. 151 00:10:16.320 --> 00:10:18.759 I'm not saying anyone who saw it early, but you saw it early 152 00:10:18.840 --> 00:10:22.000 saw it a few days early. So I'm not saying just because someone saw 153 00:10:22.000 --> 00:10:24.559 it early, that's why they got swept up in the marketing hype. I 154 00:10:26.639 --> 00:10:28.480 believe there are people who just genuinely love this movie, and that's great, 155 00:10:28.960 --> 00:10:33.519 but I can't help but think that for at least some contingent of the audience 156 00:10:33.519 --> 00:10:35.639 who saw it early at these fan events, it just I feel like it 157 00:10:35.720 --> 00:10:39.480 kind of just primes you to buy into this narrative that they're selling you, 158 00:10:39.519 --> 00:10:43.320 which is that this is the greatest DC film or the greatest movie, greatest 159 00:10:43.360 --> 00:10:50.320 superhero movie of all time. These quotes will hamp them forever anything I do. 160 00:10:50.559 --> 00:10:54.159 I truly believe that, because when you say, when you put your 161 00:10:54.240 --> 00:10:56.840 name to something like that, you lose credibility. One doesn't love up to 162 00:10:56.840 --> 00:11:00.559 the hype. And that's that's my point. That's my point. Like there's 163 00:11:00.559 --> 00:11:03.399 a whole spectrum of like opinions, and you can you can, you can 164 00:11:03.440 --> 00:11:07.679 discuss these things, and it's fun, Like why do we podcast like this 165 00:11:07.759 --> 00:11:11.919 so we can talk, we can dissect and analyze and celebrate or sometimes just 166 00:11:13.000 --> 00:11:16.080 examine these things that we because we love this John. We love these characters, 167 00:11:16.600 --> 00:11:20.600 right, this is our mythology, these these DC comics characters that we're 168 00:11:20.600 --> 00:11:22.919 heavily invested. So we're gonna have strong reaction. I mean, maybe it's 169 00:11:22.919 --> 00:11:26.279 good to have a strong reaction than no reaction. I mean, that's that's 170 00:11:26.320 --> 00:11:31.120 that's its own conversation. I guess I'll say this doing the episode of my 171 00:11:31.200 --> 00:11:35.080 show on this movie, that it was kind of an outlier because most of 172 00:11:35.120 --> 00:11:37.759 the things that we're talking about on that show, they're more settled, and 173 00:11:37.799 --> 00:11:41.480 so yeah, you know, I guess my opinion has I don't want to 174 00:11:41.480 --> 00:11:43.720 say solidified, because I do try to keep an open mind. But there 175 00:11:43.720 --> 00:11:46.840 are things that I've I've taken in and I've really thought about for a long 176 00:11:46.879 --> 00:11:50.240 period of time, and you know, you kind of can take that longer 177 00:11:50.320 --> 00:11:52.039 view of where it fits into the larger picture, and you can see things 178 00:11:52.039 --> 00:11:56.679 differently, and uh, And I feel like most of the things that we 179 00:11:56.720 --> 00:11:58.200 talk about. It's not that I gush over everything, far from it, 180 00:11:58.360 --> 00:12:01.600 but there's always the things I like and things I don't like it, and 181 00:12:01.720 --> 00:12:03.840 we could talk about both. And if there's something that I've really hate, 182 00:12:03.919 --> 00:12:09.799 I probably just wouldn't cover it because I don't take any joy in coming on 183 00:12:09.960 --> 00:12:13.360 and taking down something, which is essentially what I do with the Flash movie. 184 00:12:13.519 --> 00:12:18.360 It was an interesting exercise and in the moment, it was what I 185 00:12:18.399 --> 00:12:20.320 needed to express. I had an audience member who's been with me for a 186 00:12:20.320 --> 00:12:24.159 really long time and thankfully it's still with me, but tweeted at me, 187 00:12:24.200 --> 00:12:26.720 like he said, I found in your episode frustrating because normally we see eye 188 00:12:26.759 --> 00:12:30.200 to eye on a lot of stuff, and I felt completely differently about the 189 00:12:30.240 --> 00:12:31.480 Flash and I was like, well, thank you for still listening. I 190 00:12:31.519 --> 00:12:35.559 appreciate it. We can agree to disagree, and like I always say, 191 00:12:35.600 --> 00:12:39.120 it's a journey and it's a process. And at that point in my journey, 192 00:12:39.120 --> 00:12:41.919 in those few days after I saw the movie, that was what I 193 00:12:41.960 --> 00:12:45.480 needed to express. And so again, an interesting exercise, not an energy 194 00:12:46.000 --> 00:12:48.159 it would want to tap into all the time. I don't know that that 195 00:12:48.200 --> 00:12:52.879 would be helpful for anyone to just to hate. I mean, the you 196 00:12:52.879 --> 00:12:54.960 know, there are people that make their stock and trade that sort of thing, 197 00:12:54.960 --> 00:12:56.879 and I certainly don't want to be that. But no, you're absolutely 198 00:12:56.960 --> 00:13:01.759 right, and I try to. I try to be very open minded and 199 00:13:01.919 --> 00:13:05.559 very you know, accepting of all points of view. Around here, we've 200 00:13:05.919 --> 00:13:09.279 had fun debates about like this, these interpretations of these characters here there. 201 00:13:09.279 --> 00:13:11.519 I mean, we terror Powart small Ville on around regular basis, and that's 202 00:13:11.559 --> 00:13:16.600 my favorite show, right, But sometimes you know, well, I'll put 203 00:13:16.639 --> 00:13:20.200 it this way. I love how your Piers is called a Superman fan journey, 204 00:13:20.279 --> 00:13:22.679 because then you can this is my journey, right, and people can't 205 00:13:22.759 --> 00:13:26.799 argue with you about your opinions and your experiences, right, And sometimes I 206 00:13:26.799 --> 00:13:31.200 guess, you know, the line gets blurred somewhere like well you you said 207 00:13:31.200 --> 00:13:33.399 this, and it's like the objective truth about this subject. Like, look, 208 00:13:33.440 --> 00:13:35.000 I am not the final word on Smallville or Superman or anything. I'm 209 00:13:35.039 --> 00:13:39.399 just a guy trying to do the right thing. I'm not an angel or 210 00:13:39.440 --> 00:13:43.240 a devil figure for ill though, like I've just you know, these are 211 00:13:43.279 --> 00:13:46.879 my opinions and thoughts, and I think you know this. I don't know, 212 00:13:46.960 --> 00:13:48.840 I don't, I can never. Really, it's this intangible thing why 213 00:13:48.879 --> 00:13:54.440 people listen to certain podcasts and people's conversations, and why you gravitate towards certain 214 00:13:54.480 --> 00:13:56.759 people talking about certain things, right, because there's you can listen to a 215 00:13:56.759 --> 00:14:00.279 one hundred people talk about the Flash or Superman or anything. Right. But 216 00:14:00.360 --> 00:14:03.240 you know, I like to think that you form a bond with your audience 217 00:14:03.279 --> 00:14:07.159 and they they appreciate your opinion and they're excited to hear your takes and they 218 00:14:07.360 --> 00:14:09.200 sometimes can anticipate what you're going to think and sometimes not. And it's even 219 00:14:09.279 --> 00:14:11.320 kind of more interesting because you know, like like you said, they're with 220 00:14:11.360 --> 00:14:16.159 your listener. You know, I've had podcasts or YouTubers that that I follow 221 00:14:16.240 --> 00:14:18.879 and and uh, sometimes they have one hundred and eighty degree difference than my 222 00:14:18.919 --> 00:14:22.480 thought. I'm like, wow, but I find that interesting. That's even 223 00:14:22.559 --> 00:14:26.399 sometimes that's even more interesting. Yeah, no, I mean exactly, that's 224 00:14:26.399 --> 00:14:30.600 the thing. And it's funny because and maybe I'm sure you get this too. 225 00:14:30.600 --> 00:14:33.360 Where I've had people over these past few years now that i've been doing 226 00:14:33.399 --> 00:14:37.759 the show say some version of you know, I really I enjoy it, 227 00:14:37.799 --> 00:14:39.679 even though I don't always agree with with with you guys, And I always 228 00:14:39.679 --> 00:14:43.679 write back like that's fine. I don't. I don't need or want or 229 00:14:43.720 --> 00:14:46.519 expect everyone to agree with me. It's it's more interesting if we don't. 230 00:14:46.919 --> 00:14:50.159 Of course, the position I always take, and that I hope the audience 231 00:14:50.240 --> 00:14:52.600 is coming from. And for the most part, again, I think we 232 00:14:52.679 --> 00:14:56.360 have a great audience, and I think people, you know, fall into 233 00:14:56.399 --> 00:15:00.480 this category. Where as long as it's not hey, you're you're an idiot 234 00:15:00.519 --> 00:15:01.799 for thinking that, right, that's what I want to avoid. But as 235 00:15:01.840 --> 00:15:03.639 long as we can all be like hey, I like that, you know, 236 00:15:03.679 --> 00:15:07.679 we get different you know, we did be taking things differently and we 237 00:15:07.679 --> 00:15:09.679 get different mileage out of it. So uh yeah, I mean, like 238 00:15:09.720 --> 00:15:13.120 that's that's totally fine. But yeah, it was just it was very interesting, 239 00:15:13.320 --> 00:15:16.360 very interesting, just to kind of to kind of see that, but 240 00:15:16.399 --> 00:15:20.799 I will say I got far more people who who tended to agree, both 241 00:15:20.039 --> 00:15:26.120 publicly I noticed, but also privately. Yeah. Yeah, a lot more 242 00:15:26.159 --> 00:15:28.360 private messages about that. One of like I really enjoyed your Flash episode. 243 00:15:28.360 --> 00:15:33.360 I was like, all right, yeah, So anyway, just the pregame 244 00:15:33.399 --> 00:15:37.960 there to kind of navigate these waters, right, I don't want anybody to 245 00:15:37.000 --> 00:15:41.799 feel offended or attacked or whatever. Like these are just our reactions and opinions 246 00:15:41.840 --> 00:15:50.600 to this tentpole movie, uh of the the current soon to be over DC 247 00:15:50.799 --> 00:15:56.919 Universe on film. So how did we get here? Anthony um? I 248 00:15:56.120 --> 00:16:03.039 um have opened the Wikipedia article for The Flash twenty twenty three, and I 249 00:16:03.120 --> 00:16:04.600 thought, you know, I opened this just to kind of maybe refresh my 250 00:16:04.639 --> 00:16:07.600 memory on a couple of things, because I want to just kind of mention 251 00:16:08.600 --> 00:16:11.840 it. And then I realized, Wow, this is such a dense story. 252 00:16:11.879 --> 00:16:15.120 And I'm not I'm not talking about like the flage was invented a night 253 00:16:15.159 --> 00:16:18.039 too, but I'm talking about that. I'm talking about like this particular film, 254 00:16:18.480 --> 00:16:21.840 how we got to where we are to where we're going, And you 255 00:16:21.879 --> 00:16:23.159 know, I'm just I'm just gonna read it. Hopefully you guys don't think 256 00:16:23.159 --> 00:16:27.759 this it's boring, hopefully find informative. I don't know, but I feel 257 00:16:27.759 --> 00:16:32.279 like this could provide some interesting context to what So maybe what could have been, 258 00:16:32.320 --> 00:16:33.320 what should have been, what might have been, and what we got 259 00:16:33.840 --> 00:16:37.399 through this particular film. So here we go. This is through through no 260 00:16:37.480 --> 00:16:40.120 research of my own. This is not an article I wrote. I'm just 261 00:16:40.159 --> 00:16:42.639 reading the Wikipedia article, which is publicly available to anyone. It's like Michael 262 00:16:42.639 --> 00:16:47.240 Scott says, Wikipedia is the greatest thing in the world. Anyone can write 263 00:16:47.240 --> 00:16:49.440 anything about any subject, so you know you're getting the best possible information. 264 00:16:49.480 --> 00:16:52.039 I also have it open on my phone, so I'll follow along here too. 265 00:16:52.519 --> 00:17:00.440 Exactly. So DC Extended Universe. That's the particular chapter of this Wikipedia 266 00:17:00.519 --> 00:17:03.599 article that I'll be reading here. Warner Brothers was planning a new shared universe 267 00:17:03.640 --> 00:17:07.640 of films based on DC by July twenty thirteen, and had tentative plans to 268 00:17:07.680 --> 00:17:15.960 release a flash film in two sixteen. In October twenty fourteen, Warner Brothers 269 00:17:15.000 --> 00:17:18.640 and DC Films announced the slate of planed projects as part of the new DC 270 00:17:19.039 --> 00:17:26.160 Extended Universe. The Flash was set for release on March twenty third, twenty 271 00:17:26.319 --> 00:17:29.039 eighteen, with Ezra Miller set to star in the film as Bury Out in 272 00:17:29.079 --> 00:17:33.279 The Flash. Miller first made cameo appearances in Batman, b Superman, Doown 273 00:17:33.359 --> 00:17:37.519 of Justice, and Suicide Squad, starred in the team up film Justice League, 274 00:17:37.559 --> 00:17:41.920 and briefly appeared in the arrow Verse crossover Crisis on Infraverse, which acknowledged 275 00:17:41.079 --> 00:17:45.000 a wider DC multiverse, and in the first season of the series Peacemaker. 276 00:17:47.559 --> 00:17:51.799 Wanner Brothers offered James One the choice of directing movie about either Aquaman or The 277 00:17:51.839 --> 00:17:56.000 Flash, and he ultimately chose to make Aquaman. By April twenty fifteen, 278 00:17:56.559 --> 00:18:00.720 Phil Lord and Christopher Miller were writing a storage treatment for The Flash with the 279 00:18:00.759 --> 00:18:07.319 possibility of directing it after they decided to direct solo a Star Wars story instead. 280 00:18:07.119 --> 00:18:11.039 Seth Graham Smith inter negotiations to write and direct the film based on the 281 00:18:11.079 --> 00:18:18.000 Lord and Christopher Miller treatment. In October twenty fifteen, Grant Smiths was set 282 00:18:18.039 --> 00:18:21.519 to make his direct toil debut with the film, with Rovan producing and Deborah 283 00:18:21.519 --> 00:18:26.240 and Zack snyders Zaken producing Charles Rovan Warner Brothers executive. In February twenty sixteen, 284 00:18:26.279 --> 00:18:30.480 the film's release date was moved forward to March sixteen, twenty eighteen. 285 00:18:30.839 --> 00:18:33.920 Graham Smith left the project that April, citing creative differences in one of their 286 00:18:33.960 --> 00:18:37.079 brothers, and one of the brothers shows to retain his script, and he 287 00:18:37.119 --> 00:18:41.359 was still expected to be involved in the project moving forward. While Lord and 288 00:18:41.480 --> 00:18:47.119 Miller were also Christopher Miller were also set and I see why they're differentiating Lord 289 00:18:47.720 --> 00:18:51.960 Lord and Christopher Miller, a supposed to er Christopher Miller were also involved as 290 00:18:51.960 --> 00:18:57.359 producers A search for replacement director bugan immediately that is the first program. Let's 291 00:18:57.400 --> 00:19:02.559 take a pause, yes, because I don't want to just read non stop 292 00:19:02.599 --> 00:19:04.759 here. There's some interesting points to bring up here. James One given the 293 00:19:04.880 --> 00:19:08.799 choice to an Acaman, and Flashy picked Acaman. Now I love Acaman. 294 00:19:10.240 --> 00:19:12.839 What you enjoy the Acaman film? Enough ran, Yes, I don't know 295 00:19:12.880 --> 00:19:15.759 how I go so far as to say love, but I enjoyed it. 296 00:19:15.799 --> 00:19:18.240 I think it's a solid movie. I understand why it did well. So 297 00:19:18.720 --> 00:19:23.240 yeah, I'm a fan. I'm a fan. So I wonder again the 298 00:19:23.319 --> 00:19:29.359 multiverse of madness here of like you know, Lord and Miller right from the 299 00:19:29.440 --> 00:19:34.319 Lego movie, they go do solo a Star Wars story which they get fired 300 00:19:34.359 --> 00:19:38.319 from. So then Ron Howard picks up that movie, the first Star Wars 301 00:19:38.319 --> 00:19:41.000 movie to not make money in the box office. That's its own Lucas film. 302 00:19:41.000 --> 00:19:44.599 It's its own conversation going over there. So meanwhile, Lord of Miller, 303 00:19:44.640 --> 00:19:47.759 who get fired off that they go make into the Spider Verse and win 304 00:19:48.160 --> 00:19:52.279 Best Picture for an Animated Film the next year. Incredible, right, So 305 00:19:52.359 --> 00:19:56.680 all these people like would have could have should have almost involved with the Flash. 306 00:19:56.759 --> 00:20:00.960 I don't really I want to get into this actually, uh, because 307 00:20:00.960 --> 00:20:04.599 I'm a big Patrick Wilson fan and and things like that. But the Conjuring 308 00:20:04.680 --> 00:20:07.319 universe, and I always been interested in it, aware of it because it's 309 00:20:07.319 --> 00:20:10.359 part of the pop culster, right, but I've never like sat down and 310 00:20:10.359 --> 00:20:14.480 watched those movies. But I think James one of the two. I think 311 00:20:14.480 --> 00:20:19.279 he is more you know, probably the Aquaman's probably better fit for him. 312 00:20:19.359 --> 00:20:23.920 Maybe I would agree. I'm not a horror guy like at all, but 313 00:20:26.279 --> 00:20:29.880 it's so funny. It's just it's never appealed to me. And my wife 314 00:20:29.920 --> 00:20:32.160 is more into it, and we've had these conversations and I'm just like, 315 00:20:32.240 --> 00:20:36.079 I don't. It's just never a sensation that I've ever sought out like I 316 00:20:36.119 --> 00:20:38.720 want to be frightened, so it's never never really been my thing. But 317 00:20:40.279 --> 00:20:44.720 yeah, I and especially seeing when he did in Aquaman, particularly with the 318 00:20:44.839 --> 00:20:47.519 with the trench, and I know there was plans to do to do more, 319 00:20:47.640 --> 00:20:51.319 but I could see why that would that would speak to him obviously Musketti 320 00:20:51.359 --> 00:20:55.880 also coming from the horror world, and then you look at something like The 321 00:20:55.920 --> 00:20:59.559 Doctor Strange and the Multiverse of Madness, which full disclosure, I still have 322 00:20:59.559 --> 00:21:03.319 not seen a few MCU movies behind. But you know, there you have 323 00:21:03.359 --> 00:21:06.799 Sam Raimi and I know he you know, obviously also comes from horror and 324 00:21:07.079 --> 00:21:08.519 leaned into some of that as well. So you could have seen a version 325 00:21:08.559 --> 00:21:14.480 of a flash multiverse movie that that maybe did kind of dip its toes into 326 00:21:14.519 --> 00:21:15.960 those waters a little bit. But yeah, all to say, I think 327 00:21:17.000 --> 00:21:21.720 Wand made the right choice. Interesting connection there. I didn't think about that 328 00:21:21.720 --> 00:21:25.240 with Sam Raimi and multiverseness there he brought. He definitely brought that Sam Raimi 329 00:21:25.319 --> 00:21:27.920 flair to it. Uh. You know, a common criticism the Marvel films 330 00:21:27.920 --> 00:21:30.640 as they all look, you know the same at this point, but there's 331 00:21:30.680 --> 00:21:34.039 definitely a lot of same Raimi a lot of characters, and I enjoyed Multiverse 332 00:21:34.039 --> 00:21:37.160 of Madness. I don't know it's here. Apparently it's popular not to like 333 00:21:37.240 --> 00:21:41.319 it. Now I don't know, you know, who knows about what we're 334 00:21:41.359 --> 00:21:42.680 talking about, people's opinions and stuff. But I left that I was like, 335 00:21:42.720 --> 00:21:45.880 oh cool, that was enjoyable, you know, great, and and 336 00:21:45.039 --> 00:21:48.200 you know, on too the next chapter of the MCU. But anyway, 337 00:21:48.279 --> 00:21:53.319 let's continue with the Wikipedia article and forgive me. I don't think I've ever 338 00:21:53.359 --> 00:21:57.240 heard someone say this guy's name out WOWD. But Rick famau Will I don't 339 00:21:57.279 --> 00:21:59.960 know. I was waiting for that to come up, and I think, 340 00:22:00.000 --> 00:22:00.640 I wonder if that's going to do with it now, I don't know. 341 00:22:02.519 --> 00:22:11.799 He was hired to take over as director in June twenty sixteen. Now he 342 00:22:11.839 --> 00:22:15.720 has gone on to direct episodes of like The Mandalorian and things like that, 343 00:22:15.759 --> 00:22:18.079 so he's again this. I guess all these big budget you know, not 344 00:22:18.160 --> 00:22:22.079 even just Disney, because that's that's the other Warner Brother Disney. With all 345 00:22:22.079 --> 00:22:25.599 these big budget sci fi fantasy convicts, you know, everybody's in the same 346 00:22:25.920 --> 00:22:27.920 seems to be in the same pool, so to speak. That they're all 347 00:22:29.160 --> 00:22:30.880 people have connections, friends, whatnot. But it's interesting to see draw these 348 00:22:30.920 --> 00:22:36.920 sessions because Lord of Millard, Solo, etcetera. Anyway, so, uh, 349 00:22:37.640 --> 00:22:42.279 Wanner Brothers feeling that Rick's vision for the film would resonate with younger audiences 350 00:22:42.279 --> 00:22:48.079 and also be compatible with Graham Smith's existing script. Finling was expected to begin 351 00:22:48.160 --> 00:22:51.920 later in twenty sixteen, and was not believed to be delayed by the director 352 00:22:52.079 --> 00:22:53.839 change Rick. I'm gonna call him Rick because I honestly don't know if I'm 353 00:22:53.839 --> 00:22:56.640 ance his last thing, right, So I'm gonna keep going with Rick. 354 00:22:56.119 --> 00:23:00.200 Rick Stop choice to portray the film's female lead, Irish West was Chrissy Clemens, 355 00:23:00.480 --> 00:23:07.559 whom he had worked on with Dope film that he had directed. Rita 356 00:23:07.640 --> 00:23:11.279 Ara and Lucy Beyonton were also in the running for the role, but Clemens 357 00:23:11.680 --> 00:23:15.519 was cast as the character by the end of July. At that time, 358 00:23:15.599 --> 00:23:19.960 Warner Brothers gave the film's release date to Tune Raider twenty eighteen, leaving the 359 00:23:19.960 --> 00:23:25.119 Flash without a release date. And I never saw that tum ra to remake, 360 00:23:25.640 --> 00:23:29.400 but yeah, look looked interesting. You know, if I see it 361 00:23:29.400 --> 00:23:30.839 on streaming sometime and I got nothing to do, I'll definitely check it out. 362 00:23:33.039 --> 00:23:37.599 In August, Ray Fisher was set to appear in the film, reprising 363 00:23:37.640 --> 00:23:41.240 his role as Victor Stone Cyborg from Batman v. Superman Donna Justice Rick completed 364 00:23:41.240 --> 00:23:44.839 a revision of the script a month later, when Galaghat thought was set to 365 00:23:44.880 --> 00:23:48.359 a price her role as Diana Prince Wonder Woman from Batman v. Superman Wonder 366 00:23:48.359 --> 00:23:52.599 Woman and Justice League, and Billy crut Up was in negotiations to portray Barry's 367 00:23:52.599 --> 00:23:57.359 father, Henry Allen Clemens and Crudup both film cameo appearances for Justice League after 368 00:23:57.480 --> 00:24:03.319 being cast in the Flash. Pre Production began by October ahead of a filming 369 00:24:03.160 --> 00:24:07.559 to start in March twenty seventeen, scheduled before another commitment that Ezra had in 370 00:24:07.640 --> 00:24:12.279 July. At the end of October, Rick left the project after not being 371 00:24:12.279 --> 00:24:17.759 able to quote come together creatively unquote with the studio, which disagreed with the 372 00:24:17.799 --> 00:24:22.160 more mature direction that he wanted to take the film. Let's take a pause 373 00:24:22.240 --> 00:24:27.640 there. Two paragraphs did. By the way, so interestingly, again, 374 00:24:27.960 --> 00:24:30.759 some of the stuff I knew, I just I obviously had been following this 375 00:24:30.880 --> 00:24:34.039 for years, you know, so I'm familiar with bits and pieces, But 376 00:24:34.079 --> 00:24:37.000 I wanted to see it all kind of like now the dust subtle has seen 377 00:24:37.200 --> 00:24:42.200 seen the A to B of a all. So they hired him for a 378 00:24:42.279 --> 00:24:47.400 more like family friendly angle, and then he wanted to be more mature, 379 00:24:47.440 --> 00:24:48.720 and that's the way they came into conflict. So I feel like those are 380 00:24:48.759 --> 00:24:52.599 conversations they made, should have had before they hired him, right, probably, 381 00:24:52.680 --> 00:24:56.000 But it's so funny to me because again, I mean, some of 382 00:24:56.000 --> 00:25:00.240 those backs were I don't I don't know either, and you know the fact 383 00:25:00.240 --> 00:25:03.839 that he ultimately wanted to go with this more mature tone. I'm sure we'll 384 00:25:03.839 --> 00:25:06.119 get into this more later, but I mean, one of the big things 385 00:25:06.119 --> 00:25:10.519 that I strongly disliked about the movie we got was it's more immature tone. 386 00:25:10.640 --> 00:25:14.359 So it's this is you know, fascinating again just to kind of consider what 387 00:25:14.160 --> 00:25:18.519 what we could have gotten. Also, at the time, I didn't realize 388 00:25:18.519 --> 00:25:23.160 that he had cast according to this, he had cast Billy Croup. Yes, 389 00:25:23.319 --> 00:25:26.000 Clemens, right, Yeah, that's I guess that's a surprise too. 390 00:25:26.000 --> 00:25:29.640 I would have yeah, I would have expected that was a Snyder thing for 391 00:25:29.799 --> 00:25:33.920 Justice League, but yeah, interesting. Yeah, then there is the picture 392 00:25:33.160 --> 00:25:41.440 of there's a picture of him Rick Rick James One, Patty Jenkins, Ben 393 00:25:41.440 --> 00:25:45.200 Affleck and Zack Snyder all together at Comic Con, and then you know, 394 00:25:45.279 --> 00:25:48.799 people love the there was a time before, right, that's people love putting. 395 00:25:48.920 --> 00:25:52.160 I've see that picture circulating a lot. I'm like, yep, those 396 00:25:52.200 --> 00:25:55.200 were the days. I guess twenty I guess that was Comic Con twenty sixteen. 397 00:25:55.680 --> 00:25:59.000 Well it must have been if Snyder was there and that was it. 398 00:25:59.519 --> 00:26:02.799 He was not around in comic CONTENTI seventeen at that point, So wow, 399 00:26:03.720 --> 00:26:07.759 anyway, interesting, let's continue. The film was put on hold while the 400 00:26:07.759 --> 00:26:12.200 studio searched for a new director and Ezra Miller prepared to film Fantastic Beasts The 401 00:26:12.319 --> 00:26:18.319 Crimes Grindawald. During that time, Water Brothers decided to take the film in 402 00:26:18.400 --> 00:26:21.720 a new direction, and a January twenty seventeen, Joby Harold was hired to 403 00:26:21.799 --> 00:26:25.799 do a page one rewrite of the script. He handed in a draft by 404 00:26:25.839 --> 00:26:30.119 May, when the studio's top choices to director Robertson Meckis and Matthew Vaughan. 405 00:26:30.759 --> 00:26:34.359 Both had expressed interest in the project but had potential scheduling issues that could prevent 406 00:26:34.680 --> 00:26:38.720 them from taking it on. Sam Ramy, Mark Webb and Jordan Peel had 407 00:26:38.720 --> 00:26:45.440 already turned down offers to direct the film, as did Ben Affleck. At 408 00:26:45.519 --> 00:26:48.960 the July twenty seventeen Saniego Comic Con, the film was announced with a new 409 00:26:49.000 --> 00:26:52.559 title, Flashpoint, based on the Convict title of the same name, in 410 00:26:52.559 --> 00:26:56.039 which Barry Allen travels back in time to save his mother's life and accidentally creates 411 00:26:56.079 --> 00:27:00.400 an altered timeline. Dana Zoo contribute to the script during this time. Jeff 412 00:27:00.440 --> 00:27:03.839 John's confirmed in November that the Flashpoint concept would allow the film to tell a 413 00:27:03.920 --> 00:27:10.559 unique story about Batman, with the combook storyline exploring a time line where Thomas 414 00:27:10.599 --> 00:27:15.640 Wayne is Batman. Jeffrey Dean Morgan expressed interest enterprising his role as Thomas Wayne 415 00:27:15.759 --> 00:27:18.880 from bat and b Superman. Okay, Joe By Harold ended up writing a 416 00:27:18.880 --> 00:27:22.240 lot of the Obi Wan Kenobi Show. By the way, so again, 417 00:27:22.279 --> 00:27:27.000 this nexus of nexus of people who are all connected, fascinating that Robert Semeckis 418 00:27:27.039 --> 00:27:32.480 and Matthew Vaughn both turn it down. Matthew Vaughan man like X Men, 419 00:27:32.559 --> 00:27:34.960 first class of my favorite superhero movies, and he has such a distinct style, 420 00:27:36.079 --> 00:27:37.319 and obviously he went on to his success with The Kingsman all that, 421 00:27:37.680 --> 00:27:41.640 I would love for him to direct another combot film, an established property, 422 00:27:41.640 --> 00:27:45.279 more of a lord DC, and then Robert Semeckis for much of a heart 423 00:27:45.319 --> 00:27:48.599 on this film advert back to the Future. That's interesting. Yeah, they 424 00:27:48.640 --> 00:27:52.640 wanted him. That's pretty wild. That is pretty wild. Yeah, Matthew 425 00:27:52.720 --> 00:27:55.920 Vaughan. I mean I still haven't seen the Kingsman movies, but yeah, 426 00:27:56.000 --> 00:27:59.599 first Class, still all these years later, really stands out. And I'm 427 00:27:59.640 --> 00:28:02.920 not I'm not the biggest Marvel guy or X Men guy, but I saw 428 00:28:02.960 --> 00:28:06.440 all the movies and U and that was definitely a highlight of that franchise, 429 00:28:06.559 --> 00:28:08.200 no doubt. Yeah, I mean, on a good day, that might 430 00:28:08.240 --> 00:28:11.839 be the best one of them all. Obviously Logan is its own kind of 431 00:28:11.839 --> 00:28:15.160 conversation, but that is a top five. That's not a top three to 432 00:28:15.200 --> 00:28:17.519 me anyway. X Men movie, and I'm not mister x Men combooks guy. 433 00:28:17.519 --> 00:28:19.160 I know the most of the movies, but anyway, strong choice there. 434 00:28:19.200 --> 00:28:22.119 Up. Jordan Peele. I love Jordan feel but I like how he 435 00:28:22.160 --> 00:28:25.759 kind of stays in his own le kind of like a Chris Nolan. Okay, 436 00:28:25.799 --> 00:28:27.079 I mean Nolan did his and then he needed Batman. So maybe Jordan 437 00:28:27.079 --> 00:28:30.319 Peel could breaking break into one of these big franchises like that. But I 438 00:28:30.880 --> 00:28:33.359 mean I loved him on Key and Peel, all of all those movies, 439 00:28:33.440 --> 00:28:37.279 Like I kind of like how he does his own thing. I don't I 440 00:28:37.279 --> 00:28:38.400 don't know, I don't see that. I mean I say that, but 441 00:28:38.440 --> 00:28:41.920 I mean I would. I'll be first in line. See Jordan Peele DC 442 00:28:41.039 --> 00:28:52.039 comic movie, So let's continue. In January twenty eighteen, the filmmaking duo 443 00:28:52.440 --> 00:28:56.480 John Francis Daily and Jonathan Goldstein inter negotiations to write and direct the film, 444 00:28:56.519 --> 00:29:00.839 after the studio chose not to wait for Robert se Megis schedule to be free 445 00:29:00.960 --> 00:29:04.240 interesting. Daily and Goldstein were confirmed as directors in March, and the film's 446 00:29:04.240 --> 00:29:08.519 title reverted to The Flash the next month. Filming was expected to begin in 447 00:29:08.519 --> 00:29:14.400 Atlanta in February twenty nineteen, but Ezra Miller's commitments to Fantastic Beats The Secrets 448 00:29:14.400 --> 00:29:18.759 of Dumbledore the late filming again. The Flash was aimed for a twenty twenty 449 00:29:18.759 --> 00:29:22.440 one release. To that point. In mid March twenty nineteen, as Rameller 450 00:29:22.559 --> 00:29:25.960 was revealed to be writing a new version of the script with combook writer Grant 451 00:29:26.000 --> 00:29:30.559 Morrison. I remember this. They disagreed with the lighthearted approach the film that 452 00:29:30.640 --> 00:29:33.279 Daily and Goldstein were taking, though that was Warner Brothers preferred direction for it. 453 00:29:33.960 --> 00:29:37.279 The news script could be submitted to the studio by the end of the 454 00:29:37.319 --> 00:29:40.039 month, and if the studio did not like Miller and Morrison's take, there 455 00:29:40.079 --> 00:29:45.319 was potential for the actor to leave the film. Miller's holding deal to start 456 00:29:45.319 --> 00:29:48.279 in the film was suspected to end in May. Pause there. I should 457 00:29:48.279 --> 00:29:52.119 have mentioned this in the last paragraph, Flashpoint, the flash They're going back 458 00:29:52.119 --> 00:29:56.160 and forth on the title before this came out. I was interchangeably saying it 459 00:29:56.160 --> 00:30:00.440 because they were interchangeably saying it, right, You remember this, I do. 460 00:30:00.559 --> 00:30:06.559 Yeah. I mean it's funny because I've never been the biggest fan of 461 00:30:06.599 --> 00:30:11.079 the Flashpoint story, but I get it's appeal and there is something that I 462 00:30:11.519 --> 00:30:15.759 do think would lend itself well too to being told on the big screen. 463 00:30:15.799 --> 00:30:22.119 And obviously what we ended up getting was a very very loosely adapted version of 464 00:30:22.119 --> 00:30:26.200 that, where I think the aspects of the story that really stand out the 465 00:30:26.240 --> 00:30:30.160 most and that maybe might have grabbed audiences a little bit more, you know, 466 00:30:30.279 --> 00:30:33.960 especially the Thomas Wayne Batman element. Although I know they got a lot 467 00:30:33.960 --> 00:30:36.720 of a lot of mileage out of having Michael Keaton back, but yeah, 468 00:30:37.720 --> 00:30:41.880 well maybe well I feel like whatever trash they get, you know. Now, 469 00:30:41.960 --> 00:30:45.440 Okay, so this is the last paragraph, and then I think I'm 470 00:30:45.440 --> 00:30:48.960 from here because I'm the heir all night reading Wikipedia article. But that's at 471 00:30:48.039 --> 00:30:51.279 least gets us to the version of the film. We finally have this, 472 00:30:51.279 --> 00:30:55.759 this next, this, this last paragrapher of this section. Morrison Grant. 473 00:30:55.799 --> 00:30:59.000 Morrison later said that Miller had not been happy with the prior scripts and approached 474 00:30:59.079 --> 00:31:02.279 Morrison with their idea is and the pair were given two weeks by one of 475 00:31:02.279 --> 00:31:06.200 the rose to write the script in Scotland. Morrison described their script as quote 476 00:31:06.240 --> 00:31:11.119 a flash story unquote, which they felt was a more science fiction story similar 477 00:31:11.160 --> 00:31:14.440 to Back to the Future, but said that the studio wanted to explore the 478 00:31:14.519 --> 00:31:18.279 multiverse and other DC characters with the film instead a lot of studio a lot 479 00:31:18.319 --> 00:31:22.319 of studio opinions. I'm seeing here by the way. Morrison also denied reports 480 00:31:22.319 --> 00:31:25.640 the Miller wanted the film to have a dark tone, and said their script 481 00:31:25.680 --> 00:31:30.559 had dark aspects related to the flashpoints story The studio rejected Miller and Morrison's script 482 00:31:30.559 --> 00:31:34.920 in May, but as Milanch to remain as star of the film, The 483 00:31:36.000 --> 00:31:41.480 Alien. Goldstein left the project in July and Warner Brothers shows Christina Hodson to 484 00:31:41.559 --> 00:31:45.799 write a new screenplay for the film after writing its DC film Birds of Prey, 485 00:31:47.519 --> 00:31:49.799 Andie Machette entered the negotiations to direct the film, with his sister Barbara 486 00:31:49.880 --> 00:31:56.960 Sad to produce alongside Michael Disco. At January twenty twenty, pre production star 487 00:31:56.079 --> 00:32:00.680 was expected. The evolvement of Annie, Machetti and Hodson was firm in November 488 00:32:00.720 --> 00:32:04.279 twenty nineteen, and filming was expected to begin in twenty twenty one. After 489 00:32:04.599 --> 00:32:08.920 Ezra Miller filmed Secrets of Dumbledore a month later, Wanner Brothers scheduled The Flash 490 00:32:08.920 --> 00:32:14.559 to release July first, twenty twenty two, and the rest was history. 491 00:32:14.599 --> 00:32:16.920 Now I could go on for another thirty minutes about all the things that happened 492 00:32:16.920 --> 00:32:20.680 between now and that got us. My point was that got us to where 493 00:32:20.720 --> 00:32:22.720 we are now. Like this version of the film, these actors, directors, 494 00:32:22.759 --> 00:32:27.599 producers, presumably scripts. Obviously a lot changed between now and then. 495 00:32:28.599 --> 00:32:30.519 Sarborg was supposed to be in there, Thomas Alaim is supposed to be in 496 00:32:30.559 --> 00:32:36.640 there. Any machete hot from it it part one, maybe not so much 497 00:32:36.680 --> 00:32:39.240 at part two, but that's just own conversation. But yeah, there we 498 00:32:39.319 --> 00:32:44.720 are. What that's crazy? I mean, there's so many names, so 499 00:32:44.759 --> 00:32:47.880 many directors, so many writers. But the main thing I did, I 500 00:32:47.920 --> 00:32:52.160 did see a lot of studio opinions changing the course there. So yes, 501 00:32:52.200 --> 00:32:57.440 which is nothing new, especially on in the realm of these of these DC 502 00:32:57.640 --> 00:33:00.200 films. It's I mean a couple of things. I guess. On the 503 00:33:00.200 --> 00:33:04.920 one hand, as someone who did not enjoy what we ended up getting, 504 00:33:04.960 --> 00:33:07.000 you can't help but play what if and say, oh gee, I would 505 00:33:07.039 --> 00:33:09.920 have would have been interesting to see this person's take or that person's take. 506 00:33:12.119 --> 00:33:15.720 Putting that aside, I think the Morrison's script is the one that I would 507 00:33:15.759 --> 00:33:20.960 be most curious to read because sometime my own journey with Morrison's work, and 508 00:33:21.000 --> 00:33:25.359 I've really come around a lot over the past couple of years. As as 509 00:33:27.319 --> 00:33:31.119 impenetrable as it can sometimes be, there's there's there's such magnificent stuff there as 510 00:33:31.160 --> 00:33:34.880 well, and so that's what I'd be curious about. But I guess, 511 00:33:35.319 --> 00:33:37.160 I guess I'm of two minds, because when you when you lay out that 512 00:33:37.400 --> 00:33:44.400 entire development hell that it was in for so many years, on the one 513 00:33:44.440 --> 00:33:47.200 hand, you kind of say, hey, at a certain point, maybe 514 00:33:47.240 --> 00:33:51.119 you just move on and you do something else. Right, if you're if 515 00:33:51.160 --> 00:33:54.240 you have to work, and we've we all like whether it's personally, professionally 516 00:33:54.279 --> 00:34:00.359 creatively, we've all been in situations where sometimes you just you try everything, 517 00:34:00.359 --> 00:34:02.079 you try your best to make something come together, and at a certain point 518 00:34:02.119 --> 00:34:06.160 you have to realize, hey, this just might not be in the cars 519 00:34:06.160 --> 00:34:08.039 now. Obviously we're talking, you know, these these big ten pole movies, 520 00:34:08.079 --> 00:34:12.079 and they already put so much in and they probably felt like we have 521 00:34:12.159 --> 00:34:15.119 to get there. So the other thought that I have, and I guess, 522 00:34:15.199 --> 00:34:17.719 on the positive side, even though I didn't like what we got, 523 00:34:17.760 --> 00:34:22.360 the fact that we even that they were even able to cobble that together after 524 00:34:23.039 --> 00:34:28.000 all those years, good good for them, I guess. I guess. 525 00:34:28.239 --> 00:34:30.880 I don't know. Again, for a ton of fans out there, they're 526 00:34:30.079 --> 00:34:34.280 grateful for the movie they got there, they're happy that that Warner Brothers stuck 527 00:34:34.320 --> 00:34:36.719 it out. But yeah, I mean, I guess that's kind of the 528 00:34:37.440 --> 00:34:39.360 two ways to look at it. And so yeah, no, that's very 529 00:34:39.360 --> 00:34:44.039 true. I mean, here's the deal. Just because something has a chaotic 530 00:34:44.840 --> 00:34:47.760 road to the big screen doesn't mean it's going to be disaster. Jaws one 531 00:34:47.760 --> 00:34:52.320 of the best movies of all time, complete wreck, the original Star Wars 532 00:34:52.360 --> 00:34:55.639 filled the whole tattoween set got blown over by a sandstorm. They go no 533 00:34:57.360 --> 00:35:01.480 anyway, books and documentaries haven aid about all these these great Hollywood films. 534 00:35:01.519 --> 00:35:05.599 Back to the Future, back to let's talk about back to the future for 535 00:35:05.599 --> 00:35:07.199 a film, for a film so obsessed with the active future, and I 536 00:35:07.239 --> 00:35:09.480 know we need to transition the actual flash here in a second, but I 537 00:35:09.480 --> 00:35:13.880 found it so fascinating. They mentioned Robert Zemeckis, right, there were some 538 00:35:13.960 --> 00:35:17.039 back to the Future inspiration here. You know what happened back to the Future, 539 00:35:17.079 --> 00:35:22.039 Anthony is they filmed the film with an actor and they're like, you 540 00:35:22.039 --> 00:35:24.760 know what, this isn't working, and I know it's going to cost a 541 00:35:24.800 --> 00:35:30.039 lot of money and be really difficult, but let's recast this actor before we 542 00:35:30.159 --> 00:35:32.519 released this movie. And they did it. And Back to the Future is 543 00:35:32.519 --> 00:35:36.039 one of the best ones of all the time, one of my favorite films 544 00:35:36.039 --> 00:35:37.719 of all time, a perfect film, perhaps even if there is such a 545 00:35:37.760 --> 00:35:40.480 thing that would be on the list, or with Jaws and the original Star 546 00:35:40.480 --> 00:35:44.679 Wars. Right, I'm listening like, so all these perfect, these perfect 547 00:35:44.679 --> 00:35:46.159 things can happen from chaos. Right. So I'm not saying like, oh, 548 00:35:46.199 --> 00:35:47.840 well, they had so many problems, you're just sort of pull the 549 00:35:47.840 --> 00:35:53.000 blog. Right. They replaced Derek soil swith Michael J. Fox. Maybe 550 00:35:53.000 --> 00:35:57.000 they should replace Za Milla for somebody else. But I look at all this 551 00:35:57.639 --> 00:36:00.440 and I think mainly the main thing for me is it's crazy to think about 552 00:36:00.480 --> 00:36:04.360 all this is going on while the DCU exself was in flux. And that 553 00:36:04.440 --> 00:36:08.199 was a huge problem for this because okay, let's let's let's call it how 554 00:36:08.199 --> 00:36:14.239 it is. Right, You cast Jeffrey Dean Morgan as Thomas Wayne. You 555 00:36:14.320 --> 00:36:19.000 do that because he's gonna be Flashpoint Batman one day. Like that's that's what 556 00:36:19.039 --> 00:36:21.719 you're gonna do. Like, I don't maybe maybe wrong, I mean, 557 00:36:21.760 --> 00:36:23.159 I don't know, but like clearly, if if Zack Snyder and stayed around, 558 00:36:23.199 --> 00:36:28.000 they had done Justice League, they'd done these other films, you would 559 00:36:28.000 --> 00:36:30.719 have done that. And then to me, and this is me examining the 560 00:36:30.760 --> 00:36:34.280 film itself because I actually reread Flashpoint afterward because I was like, am I 561 00:36:34.280 --> 00:36:36.679 am I miss remembering some stuff to how much did they change? No, 562 00:36:37.079 --> 00:36:40.880 like the emotional core one of them. Well, the whole point of the 563 00:36:40.920 --> 00:36:46.519 Batman element is a father who's willing to sacrifice himself to reset the universe, 564 00:36:46.519 --> 00:36:50.400 sacrifice his own life to give a son a chance to live. And I'm 565 00:36:50.400 --> 00:36:53.800 like, wow, that's as as dark in a bad place this Thomas Wayne 566 00:36:53.920 --> 00:36:57.840 was as soon as he realizes that, like I'm not talking about the compact 567 00:36:57.840 --> 00:37:00.639 flashmotin right as soon as he realizes that, Okay, well if I help 568 00:37:00.679 --> 00:37:02.440 this crazy guy who says he's from another timeline where my son's alive, I'm 569 00:37:02.440 --> 00:37:07.599 gonna do whatever it takes to do that. And that's a huge emotional element 570 00:37:07.679 --> 00:37:10.760 here that is missing from from the Flash the film that we got. And 571 00:37:10.800 --> 00:37:15.079 they replace them with Michael Keaton, and I of course I understand why they're 572 00:37:15.119 --> 00:37:16.559 placing Mike Keaton. I want to see mikey he can come back as Batman 573 00:37:16.599 --> 00:37:20.880 since I was a kid, you know um. And they're like, well, 574 00:37:20.880 --> 00:37:22.800 it's gonna make a lot more money with Mike Keaton, and I'm like, 575 00:37:22.800 --> 00:37:25.599 well, what in hell? You know? I know. I mean, 576 00:37:25.639 --> 00:37:29.719 going back to what I was saying before, it's it's ill. We'll 577 00:37:29.760 --> 00:37:31.519 never know, But I don't know. I mean, it might be one 578 00:37:31.519 --> 00:37:36.039 of those things where without him it does even worse. As hard as that 579 00:37:36.119 --> 00:37:37.840 might be to believe, I mean, I don't know. I can't believe, 580 00:37:37.920 --> 00:37:40.679 but yeah, I don't. That's that's the thing. You can't. 581 00:37:40.719 --> 00:37:44.519 And then people say, well, I guess nobody cared about Michael Keaton's Batman 582 00:37:44.559 --> 00:37:47.360 anyway, That's not the case. People don't care about this, this nonsense. 583 00:37:47.440 --> 00:37:52.880 Perhaps of all the drama I'm not even talking I'm talking about Ezra Miller 584 00:37:52.960 --> 00:37:55.559 drama. I'm talking about studio drama. I'm talking about reboot drama. Like 585 00:37:55.599 --> 00:38:00.360 there's it's I feel like it's it's hard to kind of sift out, like 586 00:38:00.920 --> 00:38:05.119 what actually was the case. I think it was a perfect storm of we're 587 00:38:05.119 --> 00:38:07.880 talking about here, like like, as as of this recording, The Flash 588 00:38:08.400 --> 00:38:13.599 has grossed one hundred and one million, seven hundred and thirty one thousand dollars 589 00:38:13.639 --> 00:38:17.800 domestically two hundred forty seven million, nine hundred and thirty one thousand dollars internationally. 590 00:38:19.360 --> 00:38:24.119 That's crazy. That's after twenty days of release. That's I mean that 591 00:38:24.320 --> 00:38:30.519 they should have made that It's opening weekend, right. Look you go back 592 00:38:30.559 --> 00:38:36.079 to those black Adam numbers and all the talk about that and looking so bad 593 00:38:36.159 --> 00:38:40.119 now. I guess you know someone of the rocks like mm hmm. Yeah. 594 00:38:40.199 --> 00:38:50.280 Yeah. You can't talk about things you didn't get. You to talk 595 00:38:50.280 --> 00:38:52.280 about what you got, but sometimes understand why the things you got didn't work. 596 00:38:52.320 --> 00:38:54.400 You gotta think about what you could have done. And I'm not saying 597 00:38:54.440 --> 00:38:58.079 some crape, I'm not saying some crazy pie in the sky like, well, 598 00:38:58.119 --> 00:39:00.880 you know what really cool if they'd use Toma way back, man, 599 00:39:00.880 --> 00:39:02.239 I'm like, well, no, clearly that's the story. You guys said 600 00:39:02.239 --> 00:39:06.400 Flashpoint like these are things that are in there. You have gallagha Dot, 601 00:39:06.440 --> 00:39:08.840 you have Jason Moa in this film, and you do nothing with them. 602 00:39:08.880 --> 00:39:14.559 When in Flashpoint the war of the Atlanteans and Athemiscurions is like huge, that's 603 00:39:14.599 --> 00:39:16.559 like the world. That's why the timeline needs to be fixed, you know, 604 00:39:16.679 --> 00:39:20.719 Like, not not because CGI Kristo Reeve is going to crash into CGI 605 00:39:20.840 --> 00:39:22.360 Nicholas Cage. That's not why we need to fix the timeline. But that's 606 00:39:22.360 --> 00:39:28.559 what they so man like in flash point. So I I enjoy flash Point 607 00:39:28.639 --> 00:39:30.719 quite a bit. Jeff John's and my favorite Combic right it's probably when I'm 608 00:39:30.760 --> 00:39:34.199 like, if I had to pick a favorite Combic writer, I would say 609 00:39:34.239 --> 00:39:37.880 Jeff John just because of his scope of work, and he does a great 610 00:39:37.960 --> 00:39:42.039 job with almost every character he touches um television as well. Obviously some of 611 00:39:42.039 --> 00:39:44.280 his film stuff at least some stuff to be desired. But that's its own 612 00:39:44.320 --> 00:39:47.079 conversation. But as a story, Flashpoint is I think very affective. Now 613 00:39:47.119 --> 00:39:50.719 the problem flash point is, I feel like everybody goes to the well with 614 00:39:50.760 --> 00:39:53.519 it too much. We've had an animated movie, We've had a TV adaption, 615 00:39:54.079 --> 00:39:57.679 I've had a movie adoption. Now I think we need to let that 616 00:39:57.679 --> 00:40:00.440 story rest. You know that were just like Dart Knight return at this point 617 00:40:00.440 --> 00:40:02.039 where even though we've never really had a Dark Knight Returns live action movie, 618 00:40:02.519 --> 00:40:07.079 so many elements I mean, BVS took from it, Dark Knight Rises took 619 00:40:07.119 --> 00:40:09.360 from it. Even you know, the Burton movies in their own way took 620 00:40:09.440 --> 00:40:13.000 from it. There has been a fantastic animated movie. By the way, 621 00:40:13.079 --> 00:40:15.360 you've seen the Dark Knight Returns animated movie. Love it, Love it. 622 00:40:15.960 --> 00:40:20.960 Yeah, that might be my favorite of all those post DCA movies. So 623 00:40:21.239 --> 00:40:22.119 that's the story you need to wat. You need to just let flash Point 624 00:40:22.119 --> 00:40:24.559 rest. It's been running to the ground at this point, no pun intended. 625 00:40:24.719 --> 00:40:30.800 So I think as your as your first theatrical film about the Flash, 626 00:40:30.960 --> 00:40:35.360 maybe it should be not like the end all be All crossover. That'd be 627 00:40:35.400 --> 00:40:37.679 like making Christ on It for Ears or third movie or something. Right, 628 00:40:38.639 --> 00:40:45.559 I thought I was waiting for that. I actually thought as I was saying 629 00:40:45.559 --> 00:40:51.400 it, I was like, w like killing super second, you know what. 630 00:40:51.480 --> 00:40:52.599 Let me let me just also say for the sake of the audience, 631 00:40:52.599 --> 00:40:57.199 just for a little context here, so as you know, so I am 632 00:40:57.239 --> 00:41:00.679 a big fan of Snyder's movies. The first time time that I saw A 633 00:41:00.679 --> 00:41:01.840 Man of Stealing, I'll keep this quick, not worry. The first time 634 00:41:01.840 --> 00:41:04.960 I saw a Man of Steal and BVS, I was a bit mixed. 635 00:41:05.000 --> 00:41:07.239 So I say that because I've kind of been on both. I've kind of 636 00:41:07.239 --> 00:41:10.400 been on both sides of it, and I found that with some time and 637 00:41:10.440 --> 00:41:13.920 repeated viewings, I really came to appreciate what he was doing. And I 638 00:41:13.960 --> 00:41:17.519 love the three movies that we ended up getting from him. I'm not militant 639 00:41:17.599 --> 00:41:22.960 in my views, so I understand the issues that people have. I would 640 00:41:22.960 --> 00:41:24.719 have loved to have seen him be able to complete his full arc, but 641 00:41:24.760 --> 00:41:29.679 I'm glad that we at least got what we did. And when I talk 642 00:41:29.760 --> 00:41:32.679 about my frustration with the Flash movie, it's it's not really coming from the 643 00:41:32.760 --> 00:41:36.840 perspective of we should be getting more Snyder movies instead. I mean, yes, 644 00:41:36.960 --> 00:41:39.480 I would prefer if we were, but at this point, and I 645 00:41:39.480 --> 00:41:44.440 felt this way for probably years now, I really just want a clean break. 646 00:41:44.480 --> 00:41:47.000 And to your point, I think that's there's so much wrapped up in 647 00:41:47.039 --> 00:41:50.400 all of this. There's the Flash movie itself, but yeah, there's the 648 00:41:50.760 --> 00:41:52.760 long development road, and then there's the road ahead too, and this sort 649 00:41:52.800 --> 00:41:58.519 of again quasi reboot that we're heading towards, and so all of that is 650 00:41:58.599 --> 00:42:01.719 kind of swirling around as we're talking about this, but circling back to where 651 00:42:01.719 --> 00:42:05.480 you're saying, yeah, that's a good point. It's funny. I wasn't 652 00:42:05.480 --> 00:42:07.400 even really thinking about that so much. But yeah, I mean Flashpoint, 653 00:42:07.400 --> 00:42:13.679 as your first solo flash Outing might be might be jumping they gotten a little 654 00:42:13.719 --> 00:42:15.440 bit. Maybe you do want to kind of take a step back at the 655 00:42:15.480 --> 00:42:21.119 same time, as much as the Arrow Verse adapted it, they it was 656 00:42:21.159 --> 00:42:24.320 so much smaller in scale. So if they were going to do this and 657 00:42:24.400 --> 00:42:28.960 really do it, and give us that Wonder Woman, aquamand War and give 658 00:42:29.000 --> 00:42:31.880 us Thomas Wayne and give us all of that which otherwise we've only seen brought 659 00:42:31.920 --> 00:42:35.679 to life in animated form, which which was cool, but to see that 660 00:42:35.719 --> 00:42:38.400 in live action, I think there could have been something valuable there. But 661 00:42:38.760 --> 00:42:42.719 yeah, they did not. They did not go far enough at all. 662 00:42:42.800 --> 00:42:45.119 No, I think, yeah, I mean talking about like the flash movie 663 00:42:45.119 --> 00:42:49.599 we got now let's talk about but I transition into that is what we're talking 664 00:42:49.599 --> 00:42:52.920 about her. That the source material. So they looked at the source material 665 00:42:52.000 --> 00:42:55.679 and they were like, okay, let's just eliminate acquamand and Wonder Woman. 666 00:42:55.719 --> 00:42:58.159 They're not going to be in it. And I'm like, why would you 667 00:42:58.199 --> 00:43:00.559 do that? Those are the two most successful characters, and well, I 668 00:43:00.599 --> 00:43:06.639 would say franchises, but you know, I you know, the ones that 669 00:43:06.719 --> 00:43:09.920 connected with the general audience more than anybody else's interpretations. I don't think bat 670 00:43:09.920 --> 00:43:14.400 Fleck did as well, but that's its own kind of conversation. But you 671 00:43:14.400 --> 00:43:16.679 know, you have Galga dott you have Disma, they're here, they're under 672 00:43:16.679 --> 00:43:20.960 contract, they're supposed to be making more movies with you. That has seems 673 00:43:21.000 --> 00:43:22.480 to have changed, right, But at the time this was coming out, 674 00:43:22.559 --> 00:43:25.599 like why are you not leaning into making them a huge subplot of the film. 675 00:43:25.960 --> 00:43:28.760 You get to lean into, Hey, do you guys like you guys 676 00:43:28.800 --> 00:43:30.519 like Wonder Woman? Right, Like you're fighting things and do you ever fight 677 00:43:30.559 --> 00:43:34.280 Aquaman? Right, You're like, I mean, that's that's just that's just 678 00:43:34.320 --> 00:43:37.079 common sense to me. I mean, I don't understand why you just eliminate 679 00:43:37.119 --> 00:43:42.119 that entirely. It's this, it's this weird thing where yes, putting aside 680 00:43:42.119 --> 00:43:45.960 whether or not Flashpoint should be your first solo flash movie, nevertheless, you've 681 00:43:46.000 --> 00:43:53.440 still built it's a bit shoddy, You've built this shared cinematic universe, right, 682 00:43:53.480 --> 00:43:58.440 And and like you said, I mean those were Reception to Wonder Woman 683 00:43:58.480 --> 00:44:00.519 eighty four is high, but just in terms of the actors and the their 684 00:44:00.599 --> 00:44:07.400 depictions of these characters generally very well received. And you have the audience. 685 00:44:07.599 --> 00:44:10.400 You know, the audience knows these characters and these actors as these characters. 686 00:44:10.440 --> 00:44:15.719 So you have the ingredients in place here, right, Like I know one 687 00:44:15.760 --> 00:44:20.079 of the BVS criticisms, And to be honest, even though I've I love 688 00:44:20.119 --> 00:44:23.920 it, I do still understand this how it was sort of looking to short 689 00:44:23.960 --> 00:44:28.119 circuit the universe building process, and we got all the you know, the 690 00:44:28.480 --> 00:44:31.679 cameos and that whole bit that that laptop scene. I hate that. I 691 00:44:31.800 --> 00:44:35.480 know, I know it doesn't bug me, but I but I do get 692 00:44:35.519 --> 00:44:37.000 it. And so you know, that might be a very fair criticism of 693 00:44:37.039 --> 00:44:39.679 that film. But you know, here you got they were at a point 694 00:44:39.719 --> 00:44:43.960 where you've you've introduced these characters. You like, the pieces are in place, 695 00:44:44.000 --> 00:44:46.599 you can just go nuts. And and again it's not it's not like 696 00:44:46.679 --> 00:44:52.280 these characters were totally unrepresented in these movies. They were there. They were 697 00:44:52.280 --> 00:44:57.440 there, and these laughable cameos. Oh my goodness. Great, Yeah, 698 00:44:57.480 --> 00:45:00.800 so you were moved because because they move. He was called Flashpoint at once 699 00:45:00.880 --> 00:45:05.239 upon a time. They change it back to the flash right, that's all. 700 00:45:05.280 --> 00:45:07.239 I want to go through all that stuff for various reasons to get some 701 00:45:07.280 --> 00:45:14.320 context, and you're you're still clearly based off flash Point. There's no arguing 702 00:45:14.320 --> 00:45:17.679 that there is no this is more based off Flashpoint than than obviously BVS was 703 00:45:17.679 --> 00:45:21.719 Death of Superman or World's Finance or any other kind of combook story. I 704 00:45:21.719 --> 00:45:24.960 mean, I'm trying to DC wise, Anthony, has there been another I 705 00:45:24.960 --> 00:45:29.679 mean, seriously, has there been another DC comics movie that has been so 706 00:45:29.880 --> 00:45:34.000 based off a comic book? Ministers, Marvel does it a lot. Winter 707 00:45:34.119 --> 00:45:37.840 Soldier, Civil War, Infinity War. Right, they take these giant events 708 00:45:37.280 --> 00:45:40.119 and they make films out of them. Now they change a lot, right, 709 00:45:40.159 --> 00:45:43.440 Winter Soldier totally different in a lot of ways, But I think they're 710 00:45:43.480 --> 00:45:45.960 both equally good. So that's another thing. I'm not saying, you change 711 00:45:45.039 --> 00:45:47.159 what was at the page, Like, yeah, if you're gonna change it, 712 00:45:47.159 --> 00:45:50.320 and you, dude, like adapted properly. I feel like it's a 713 00:45:50.400 --> 00:45:53.679 very poor adaption of that story. I can't think of any other DC comic 714 00:45:53.760 --> 00:45:59.920 movie, live action movie that has adapted a straight up DC comic story like 715 00:46:00.119 --> 00:46:01.800 before. Yeah, I mean, excluding Watchman, which is its own thing 716 00:46:01.840 --> 00:46:07.000 anyway. Yeah. Yeah, But well, our mutual friend Tyler from Kryptime 717 00:46:07.079 --> 00:46:09.400 Report, after I did my episode on Shazam Fury of the Gods and we 718 00:46:09.400 --> 00:46:14.440 were talking about this depiction of of Shazam and everything, he did point me 719 00:46:14.480 --> 00:46:20.239 towards a Jeff John's miniseries. I think that. I think the movie followed 720 00:46:20.360 --> 00:46:22.880 very closely the New fifty two. Yeah, I know what you mean. 721 00:46:22.960 --> 00:46:27.079 Yeah, because Savannah gets the powers and things like. That's that's a good 722 00:46:27.079 --> 00:46:29.639 point. But that's but even that, I don't know that we could go 723 00:46:29.800 --> 00:46:30.360 again. I haven't read it, so I can't say for sure. But 724 00:46:30.400 --> 00:46:32.599 I don't know if we would even say that was a strict adaptation, and 725 00:46:32.599 --> 00:46:37.400 if even it's one out of all these movies, well even the Alkamani two. 726 00:46:37.360 --> 00:46:40.320 Alcaman, Yeah, there's the trenches in there, right, Jeff Sean 727 00:46:40.400 --> 00:46:44.079 stuff again, So that's in. There are elements in the movie, but 728 00:46:44.119 --> 00:46:46.119 it's always like the DC always takes these bits and piece. That's why you 729 00:46:46.119 --> 00:46:50.719 get Nightfall, you get No Man's Land, and you get Dartne returns in 730 00:46:50.760 --> 00:46:53.480 the darknight rises right for for example. Right, Um, but this, 731 00:46:53.679 --> 00:46:58.639 more than anything else, this is based off you know, flashmore so you 732 00:46:58.719 --> 00:47:02.599 remove this this obvious thing to do. So that's one pillar gone, right, 733 00:47:02.639 --> 00:47:07.760 Alcaman versus a Wonder Woman. Um, I've I've read all this stuff 734 00:47:07.760 --> 00:47:09.480 like emper Rockaman and all this, like all those spinoffs. I'm my self, 735 00:47:09.559 --> 00:47:13.440 I have the entire flashpoint. World's a flashpoint, you know, the 736 00:47:13.519 --> 00:47:15.440 kind of thing I was all familiar with those. They weren't all A plus 737 00:47:15.480 --> 00:47:19.559 stuff, but they were good. Again, you have, as you said, 738 00:47:19.599 --> 00:47:22.599 you have the pieces. Sound like, run with that. So that's 739 00:47:22.639 --> 00:47:28.199 gone. One Romans in this movie for one of the most cringe scenes I've 740 00:47:28.239 --> 00:47:31.239 ever seen her in. Remember the scene from Jostice League that everybody was like, 741 00:47:31.559 --> 00:47:35.719 oh, look, Acaman, he's talking about I'm much show what beautiful 742 00:47:35.719 --> 00:47:37.599 one Roman is the gag that he's sitting on the last of the truth and 743 00:47:37.639 --> 00:47:42.000 doesn't know it right. Well, they did it again, but even worse 744 00:47:42.199 --> 00:47:45.000 because it's like Batman's like, oh, I should really just give away all 745 00:47:45.000 --> 00:47:46.880 my money, And they took this meme off the internet and made it a 746 00:47:46.960 --> 00:47:51.159 thing. And then Barry's talking about like I don't know what sex is. 747 00:47:51.320 --> 00:47:52.840 I'm like, what are you talking about, y'all? This is embarrassing. 748 00:47:53.119 --> 00:47:57.519 This is absolutely embarrassing. And then and then, honestly, just to put 749 00:47:57.599 --> 00:48:00.440 a cherry on top, she flies off like she doesn't want one and eighty 750 00:48:00.440 --> 00:48:02.599 four, which is really awesome, makes me back. I mean, it 751 00:48:02.679 --> 00:48:06.880 makes the it makes the wonder when we can't Zam looked pretty good compared to 752 00:48:06.920 --> 00:48:10.480 this. Yeah, that's true. Actually I would take that over this and 753 00:48:10.599 --> 00:48:15.440 any day. It's funny because I know there was talk even going into this 754 00:48:15.480 --> 00:48:20.800 movie about how it how it does reference events from the Snyder cut, and 755 00:48:21.079 --> 00:48:27.679 it does, but totally it feels so vastly more in line with Josice League. 756 00:48:27.719 --> 00:48:30.760 So that's the sort of thing where as someone who who very much enjoyed 757 00:48:30.840 --> 00:48:34.039 Zack Snyder's Justice leaue, I don't sit there, and I'm like, I 758 00:48:34.159 --> 00:48:36.719 wasn't sitting there like, oh, this is great. It's it feels like 759 00:48:37.559 --> 00:48:39.519 that movie. It's like, nah's all right, No. I mean, 760 00:48:39.559 --> 00:48:43.400 if there's one other movie I could compare this, it was joice League. 761 00:48:44.079 --> 00:48:49.360 Just just all the worst elements of that turn up to eleven um. So 762 00:48:49.400 --> 00:48:52.840 that's so she's din all command. You know. He has this awful post 763 00:48:52.840 --> 00:48:55.639 credit scene where he's just a fool and he falls. Oh he's drunk, 764 00:48:55.639 --> 00:48:59.039 even though they established an a command that he can't get drunk. He's sitting 765 00:48:59.039 --> 00:49:01.159 there with his dad and he can't get drunk, like that's I mean, 766 00:49:01.199 --> 00:49:06.360 it's a thing. But then now he can because it's funny and he's fumbling 767 00:49:06.400 --> 00:49:08.599 around on the ground passing out a puddle. And that's how we end these 768 00:49:08.679 --> 00:49:14.800 characters. Um, And it's just it's it's it's insulting, I think to 769 00:49:14.920 --> 00:49:19.760 these characters, it is I said this to you via a proprivate message where 770 00:49:19.760 --> 00:49:22.599 after we'd seen the movie. I like, for Jason Momo, I mean, 771 00:49:22.599 --> 00:49:27.880 I know this is his job and he wants to continue in whatever role. 772 00:49:27.880 --> 00:49:30.760 It seems like he'll be Alkaman, he'll be Lobo, he'll be both, 773 00:49:30.159 --> 00:49:32.639 and I get it. But it's just at a certain point, I 774 00:49:32.679 --> 00:49:37.280 don't know. I mean, unless he really likes he likes this look for 775 00:49:37.360 --> 00:49:39.679 his character, I wonder at what point might he say, Hey, guys, 776 00:49:40.559 --> 00:49:44.679 you know we've we've really built this character up into into this badass. 777 00:49:44.719 --> 00:49:46.159 Maybe we don't, maybe we don't play him for such a joke. But 778 00:49:46.159 --> 00:49:52.679 even putting that aside, it's still so baffling to me that again, with 779 00:49:52.719 --> 00:49:54.679 where we are, we still have two movies left. We have Blue Beetle, 780 00:49:54.719 --> 00:49:58.519 who, as we've learned again is the first character of the James gun 781 00:49:58.559 --> 00:50:00.599 verse, but not the first movie. And then we have Aquaman in the 782 00:50:00.679 --> 00:50:06.119 Lost Kingdom. And so this post credit scene in Flash is the last time 783 00:50:06.159 --> 00:50:13.440 we're gonna see Aquaman before his very long awaited sequel. It's just so odd 784 00:50:13.440 --> 00:50:17.239 to me that that's that's the note you want to leave people on. Makes 785 00:50:17.280 --> 00:50:21.519 no sense. It doesn't It doesn't tease anything, doesn't set anything up. 786 00:50:21.760 --> 00:50:23.920 It's like Berry's like, oh yeah, there's a lot of Bruce Wayne's Oh 787 00:50:23.920 --> 00:50:30.440 okay, and that's its own conversation. We'll get to that. But but 788 00:50:30.559 --> 00:50:34.800 so completely wasted. Both both aquamand I wonder one of this. So that 789 00:50:34.840 --> 00:50:44.039 pillar is gone, Let's go to the other pillar of Flash part. Let's 790 00:50:44.039 --> 00:50:46.280 say there's three pillars of flashmarn Right. Pillar one is the Demiscurian, a 791 00:50:46.360 --> 00:50:53.840 lady of war God. Pillar two Thomas Wayne Batman God. Now financially I 792 00:50:53.920 --> 00:50:58.639 understand, Hey, let's bring back Michael Keaton because I mean, you know, 793 00:50:58.760 --> 00:51:00.679 you've heard of people listen to this podcast. I don't patreons main feeds. 794 00:51:00.719 --> 00:51:04.920 I don't have had these conversations, but these me and last last I've 795 00:51:04.920 --> 00:51:07.639 had these these fun conversations about it. And he's been very anti this the 796 00:51:07.679 --> 00:51:09.039 whole time, and I was like, ah, you know, but it 797 00:51:09.079 --> 00:51:13.320 makes sense though, the they're gonna use this to prop up the Flash financially, 798 00:51:13.320 --> 00:51:15.639 because mean, who wants to go see in Ezra Miller Flashmo? We 799 00:51:15.639 --> 00:51:19.440 know one of course, right know. But if you put Michael Keaton Batman 800 00:51:19.440 --> 00:51:22.400 in it, people like, oh yeah, Like the general public knows that 801 00:51:22.519 --> 00:51:27.159 they love that, right, so that it makes sense if he's like going 802 00:51:27.199 --> 00:51:30.400 through multi verses and somehow plays a role and that's you know whatever. But 803 00:51:31.480 --> 00:51:37.159 to the reason Michael Keaton's Batman and I love Michael Keaton's Batman. I like 804 00:51:37.280 --> 00:51:40.840 seeing him again, but he didn't need to be here. They could have 805 00:51:40.840 --> 00:51:44.400 been any Batman I for this criticism't going around and I agree with it, 806 00:51:44.480 --> 00:51:46.880 like it could have been George Clooney, could have been Val Kilmer. Um. 807 00:51:47.079 --> 00:51:54.000 There's no emotional weight to this character because he's there to to say lines 808 00:51:54.039 --> 00:51:59.480 that you've heard before, talk about cringe. Let's get nuts, so cringe. 809 00:51:59.559 --> 00:52:01.280 This is what people thought Spider Man. No, my home was gonna 810 00:52:01.320 --> 00:52:07.239 be It's it's just I and I'm not gonna say that like it ruined legacy 811 00:52:07.280 --> 00:52:08.840 of Mike Kin's Batman. I didn't do that. Fortunately. I feel like 812 00:52:08.840 --> 00:52:12.199 once he was kind of like established you in his thing, it to treat 813 00:52:12.280 --> 00:52:15.360 him with the proper respect and he had a good action scene breaking out Supergirl, 814 00:52:15.400 --> 00:52:16.000 which oh, I guess is a sub biller. I guess we can 815 00:52:16.039 --> 00:52:21.199 talk about. But like the fact that he's just here saying some lines and 816 00:52:21.199 --> 00:52:24.559 and and then dies and then that's it. Dies multiple times. By the 817 00:52:24.559 --> 00:52:29.159 way, don't get too attached to your favorite Batman kids, because he's gonna 818 00:52:29.159 --> 00:52:34.159 die hundreds of times. Um complete misuse of him. Honestly, it really 819 00:52:34.280 --> 00:52:37.199 was nothing about his world other than like, hey, we recreated the kitchen 820 00:52:37.239 --> 00:52:39.760 for Batman and nine. Who cares? I don't care. I love Batman 821 00:52:39.840 --> 00:52:43.360 and mine. I don't care they recreated the kitchen for Batman eighty nine. 822 00:52:43.400 --> 00:52:45.639 You don't have it. Didn't even look that way in Batman Returns. Who 823 00:52:45.679 --> 00:52:47.599 care? The Batmobile is there is a prop, they take the they take 824 00:52:47.599 --> 00:52:51.000 the tarp off, and they don't even use it. Now. I do 825 00:52:51.079 --> 00:52:53.079 like the new bat Plane. It was pretty cool, sure, sure, 826 00:52:53.400 --> 00:52:57.360 but so the thing, I mean a couple of pieces of this. So 827 00:52:57.599 --> 00:53:04.679 number one, I quote unquote my Batman is Christian Bale. I get the 828 00:53:04.760 --> 00:53:08.000 love from Michael Keaton. I've recently revisited those movies. I was I was 829 00:53:08.039 --> 00:53:10.280 so little when they came out, and they just didn't, you know. 830 00:53:10.280 --> 00:53:13.880 When I eventually did see them, I mean, I enjoyed them, and 831 00:53:13.880 --> 00:53:16.519 they definitely made an impression on me, but again not to the point where 832 00:53:16.519 --> 00:53:21.719 I'm like, this is my Batman. So Keaton being in this movie doesn't 833 00:53:21.719 --> 00:53:22.599 do as much for me as it does for you, as it does for 834 00:53:22.599 --> 00:53:27.519 a lot of people. But even even that aside, that's exactly it. 835 00:53:27.559 --> 00:53:30.320 I think this is a very very valid criticism of this that it truly could 836 00:53:30.360 --> 00:53:34.599 have been any Batman. And I've said this, and maybe it's a hot 837 00:53:34.599 --> 00:53:38.199 take, but it's like, even if instead of bringing back Jeffrey Dean Morgan, 838 00:53:38.199 --> 00:53:40.119 which of course would have made more sense than had been set up, 839 00:53:40.119 --> 00:53:44.719 but even if they had Keaton playing Thomas Wayne and I get maybe I just 840 00:53:44.760 --> 00:53:46.519 would have been had On Hall I would have been too confusing for me. 841 00:53:46.800 --> 00:53:50.920 Already recast dads in this movie anyway, well that's the thing, and at 842 00:53:50.960 --> 00:53:54.199 least thematically, then you would have gotten exactly what you're talking about when when 843 00:53:54.199 --> 00:54:00.559 we refer to flashpoint and that emotional arc, and or even again, it's 844 00:54:00.559 --> 00:54:04.239 like if it had just still been batflex somehow, because that's the Batman that 845 00:54:04.440 --> 00:54:07.480 Barry has the connection with it, just the thing, and I'm glad you 846 00:54:07.480 --> 00:54:12.320 brought up No Way Home because I feel like with that, yes, you 847 00:54:12.440 --> 00:54:15.880 have the fan service element, and they do the pointing meme, and it's 848 00:54:15.960 --> 00:54:20.440 cool to see the three of them together, but there's a specific reason why 849 00:54:21.159 --> 00:54:24.800 those three have to come together, and the lessons that Toby and Andrew are 850 00:54:24.800 --> 00:54:30.800 able to impart to the Holland version. It's a major part of that film 851 00:54:30.880 --> 00:54:35.480 and his arc in it. And here again, it truly could have been 852 00:54:35.960 --> 00:54:39.440 any Batman, and I felt they just lost sight of to whatever extent they 853 00:54:39.440 --> 00:54:44.320 were trying to adapt this story, they just missed it. And what they 854 00:54:44.400 --> 00:54:46.599 what they had there was it was fan service, but I don't feel like 855 00:54:46.639 --> 00:54:51.000 there was really the substance behind it. I mean, I feel like the 856 00:54:51.079 --> 00:54:53.320 arc that they did give him where Barry helped bring him back to life and 857 00:54:53.320 --> 00:54:57.440 he's you know, he's out there again, it was paper thin, like 858 00:54:57.519 --> 00:55:00.559 there was just not enough there. First stuff, first draft stuff. Also 859 00:55:00.639 --> 00:55:06.119 like, okay, let's let's because being a huge fan of those films and 860 00:55:06.199 --> 00:55:09.239 this character and that version, right, you've speculated for years, but what 861 00:55:09.400 --> 00:55:14.360 this that Robin whatever? Right? Nothing, there's nothing, There's not there's 862 00:55:14.360 --> 00:55:17.119 not even you know, Hey Snyder gave us a Robin suit in the Batcave 863 00:55:17.280 --> 00:55:21.360 and we're like, wow, what is that? Your imagination goes wow. 864 00:55:21.559 --> 00:55:23.440 People thought Jared Little was Jason Todd for a while there, right, but 865 00:55:23.440 --> 00:55:27.920 there was so much there's nothing to work with you other than hey, man, 866 00:55:28.039 --> 00:55:30.599 I'll tell you what. When they pulled up that laughing bag, I 867 00:55:30.679 --> 00:55:32.360 was like, I'm done. Like that was the ultimate slap in the face 868 00:55:32.679 --> 00:55:37.519 because that I don't fan service man. Now I be getting fired up now. 869 00:55:37.920 --> 00:55:43.519 But like fan service, you gotta be careful with it because like for 870 00:55:43.519 --> 00:55:45.039 the people you're trying to appeal to, you're just pissing them off when you 871 00:55:45.119 --> 00:55:49.440 just act like it's nothing, like hey, remember we said that? Yeah, 872 00:55:49.519 --> 00:55:51.800 I do, I saw that. Do you do you ever see this? 873 00:55:51.800 --> 00:55:54.920 This old s and L skit? I sell people making this comparison on 874 00:55:54.920 --> 00:55:59.800 Twitter, But it was Chris Farley and he used to do like it was 875 00:56:00.000 --> 00:56:02.000 and like Paul McCartney say, hey, remembered you were in the Beatles. 876 00:56:02.760 --> 00:56:07.519 Paul mccartan's like yeah. He's like, wasn't that cool. Paul McCarty's like, 877 00:56:07.599 --> 00:56:08.840 yeah, yeah, that was cool. You know, there's just I 878 00:56:08.880 --> 00:56:12.199 don't remember the whole skin or whatever. But I'm like, that's the equivalent. 879 00:56:12.239 --> 00:56:15.480 It's like, hey remember the Battleville, Yeah, I do. That 880 00:56:15.639 --> 00:56:20.639 was cool, Like like I don't like it's it's it's not enough to just 881 00:56:20.719 --> 00:56:22.840 say, hey, you remember this thing. I know what that is. 882 00:56:22.880 --> 00:56:25.760 Like they're the regular media thing. I know what that is. That's this 883 00:56:25.840 --> 00:56:29.960 is the epitome of that. This is the epitome of that. Now there 884 00:56:30.079 --> 00:56:32.039 was I did like some Michael Keatons. He's like he's talking to Barry, 885 00:56:32.239 --> 00:56:36.000 like, you know, I thought maybe I could bring my parents back by 886 00:56:36.000 --> 00:56:38.480 fighting crime, and you actually did it. That's a great scene. There 887 00:56:38.480 --> 00:56:40.320 are some great scenes in here. I'm not gonna I'm not gonna say the 888 00:56:40.320 --> 00:56:43.679 whole thing is a waste of time. There's some great self But again, 889 00:56:43.719 --> 00:56:45.599 that could be any batman that speaks to nothing about his personal experience. Now 890 00:56:45.800 --> 00:56:51.119 No Way Home Andrew Garfield him catching him Jay completes the circle of him not 891 00:56:51.159 --> 00:56:53.760 catching Gwin. Like there's emotional and then and they don't throw it in your 892 00:56:53.760 --> 00:56:57.679 face either, like you just know they mentioned some things and like and you 893 00:56:57.800 --> 00:57:00.760 know and like that's such an emotional moment. We all knew what was gonna 894 00:57:00.760 --> 00:57:02.119 happen, Like as soon as the trailer, we knew we trailer, we 895 00:57:02.199 --> 00:57:06.079 knew that it was gonna be edu Garfield. But it still hits you, 896 00:57:06.239 --> 00:57:08.039 right, And they were so smart not to reveal all that stuff, you 897 00:57:08.119 --> 00:57:10.800 know, like like we didn't know, like honestly, up the up till 898 00:57:10.840 --> 00:57:15.079 the release of No Way Home, we le generally did not know of Andrew 899 00:57:15.079 --> 00:57:15.840 and Toby were going to be in it. And now we knew the villains 900 00:57:15.840 --> 00:57:20.639 were, but we didn't know who they were. But this Michael Keaton super 901 00:57:20.639 --> 00:57:23.800 Girl, you know the I think even did wonderm would even make a trailer. 902 00:57:23.800 --> 00:57:28.760 I don't know if she did or not. That was in the commercials. 903 00:57:28.800 --> 00:57:30.000 It's like, come right, guys, So maybe it wouldn't hit you 904 00:57:30.000 --> 00:57:34.159 different, but just yes actually, So on that note, a little quick 905 00:57:34.159 --> 00:57:37.639 little anecdote. So a very dear friend of mine, Rich who I met 906 00:57:37.639 --> 00:57:42.920 through our local comic shop, and uh, he's he's as as old as 907 00:57:42.960 --> 00:57:45.760 my father. Just for context, because my dad also really liked this movie. 908 00:57:46.159 --> 00:57:51.039 But I bring up this anecdote because Rich uh was over here recently and 909 00:57:51.039 --> 00:57:54.519 we recorded and not about the flash, but he had just taken his nephew 910 00:57:54.559 --> 00:57:58.800 to see the film, and I had kind of prepped him a little bit 911 00:57:58.800 --> 00:58:00.159 ahead of the time. I didn't spoil anything, but he knew I was 912 00:58:00.199 --> 00:58:04.559 not a fan of this movie. So he's over here the other day and 913 00:58:04.840 --> 00:58:07.639 it's like the day after he's seen the movie and I'm setting up the equipment. 914 00:58:07.679 --> 00:58:08.559 I'm like, oh, like, what do you think of the flash? 915 00:58:08.599 --> 00:58:13.960 And he goes, I loved it. And so it does sound like 916 00:58:14.000 --> 00:58:15.960 a jerk, but my gut reaction was he was messing with me. I 917 00:58:16.039 --> 00:58:20.840 like the notion of him like loving it. I like, it really took 918 00:58:20.840 --> 00:58:21.960 me a second. But then I was like, all right, cool. 919 00:58:21.960 --> 00:58:23.239 I'm like I'm glad. I mean, I'm glad you liked it. And 920 00:58:23.280 --> 00:58:27.480 we had all discussion about it, and he was like, what it's like, 921 00:58:27.480 --> 00:58:29.679 what didn't you like about it? And I was almost like, listen. 922 00:58:29.719 --> 00:58:31.639 I did like an hour and forty minutes on this. He could listen, 923 00:58:31.719 --> 00:58:36.119 but just listen. But I gave him just kind of the broad strokes 924 00:58:36.119 --> 00:58:37.400 of it, and I felt like I felt myself getting fired up as I 925 00:58:37.400 --> 00:58:42.639 was talking about it. But the I bring this up because he believe it 926 00:58:42.719 --> 00:58:49.280 or not managed to go into that movie almost entirely unspoiled, And you might 927 00:58:49.320 --> 00:58:51.880 say, how is that possible? Again, I mentioned that he's he's in 928 00:58:51.920 --> 00:58:57.320 his sixties, so not not that this is a determining factor, but he 929 00:58:57.400 --> 00:59:01.800 does not have Wi Fi at home, he does not have cable. He 930 00:59:01.920 --> 00:59:07.199 uses the Internet at his job, but he claims that they have this very 931 00:59:07.239 --> 00:59:10.480 restrictive firewall. I've always thought it's an excuse if there's something he doesn't want 932 00:59:10.559 --> 00:59:13.280 to read. He's like, oh, I couldn't read you know, the 933 00:59:13.280 --> 00:59:15.639 firewall, got it? But but but maybe there is. So that's all 934 00:59:15.679 --> 00:59:20.920 to say that it seems like he went into this really not knowing anything. 935 00:59:20.920 --> 00:59:22.679 And I know we'll talk about the Superman Supergirl of it all in a minute. 936 00:59:22.679 --> 00:59:25.880 But when I was talking to him about that, and I was like, 937 00:59:25.920 --> 00:59:28.800 but like, we knew Supergirl was in he was, oh, I 938 00:59:28.840 --> 00:59:30.440 didn't know. He was like, I think I saw her on the poster 939 00:59:30.760 --> 00:59:37.280 before I walked into the theater. I was like, which is sounds insane, 940 00:59:37.719 --> 00:59:40.360 right, that someone could not know that Supergirl was in this movie. 941 00:59:40.519 --> 00:59:45.000 And again, I think he's probably the more extreme case as far as really 942 00:59:45.039 --> 00:59:47.559 not knowing anything about this movie. But he really enjoyed it, and I 943 00:59:47.599 --> 00:59:52.199 think being able to go in unspoiled did help a lot. Which again, 944 00:59:52.199 --> 00:59:53.880 when we talk about how they sold this movie and how much they gave away 945 00:59:54.679 --> 00:59:59.679 it was it was egregious, but it was funny too. When you were 946 00:59:59.719 --> 01:00:01.960 mentioned about the kitchen scene, he loved, like, he loved that detail. 947 01:00:02.039 --> 01:00:05.400 He loved that they recreated the kitchen like that was enough for him. 948 01:00:05.440 --> 01:00:08.159 So again, you know, everybody has a different reaction to this, but 949 01:00:08.519 --> 01:00:12.079 that stuff usually, like I usually appreciate that kind of stuff, Like if 950 01:00:12.079 --> 01:00:14.239 you're like Star Wars or Star Trek, like, oh, they went back 951 01:00:14.280 --> 01:00:15.079 into the thing and they recreated I'm like, oh, that's gray. I 952 01:00:15.119 --> 01:00:19.039 mean we've seen a lot of that stuff in recent iterations of both franchises, 953 01:00:19.079 --> 01:00:22.719 Star Trek and Star Wars, where you revisit the bridge of the Enterprise or 954 01:00:22.760 --> 01:00:25.800 you revisit you know, the the star whatever. Right, Um, but 955 01:00:25.840 --> 01:00:29.559 they might in Batman Returns of his totally different house anyway, So who care, 956 01:00:29.599 --> 01:00:31.760 Like that stuff doesn't matter, you know, Um, I'm gonna go 957 01:00:31.800 --> 01:00:36.039 on this Keaton thing for a second, but like Nicool, see those suits, 958 01:00:36.440 --> 01:00:38.079 Yeah, I mean those suits were cool, But Michael Keaton never wore 959 01:00:38.079 --> 01:00:40.519 those suits, but he was a new Batman at Batman at Night. He 960 01:00:40.559 --> 01:00:44.639 doesn't have those blue and gray the guns. Is that like, that's that's 961 01:00:44.679 --> 01:00:47.719 not you mix in your combat mythology with the with the Batman mythology. So 962 01:00:47.719 --> 01:00:51.320 it's someone who really knows those movies in and out that those were not his 963 01:00:51.360 --> 01:00:52.760 suits. And they were cool to see. I know someone were based off 964 01:00:52.760 --> 01:00:57.440 the Kinner toys and some of them afterward. That's fine, But no, 965 01:00:57.519 --> 01:01:00.400 that he didn't have a oh when it cool he had the Year one thing 966 01:01:00.400 --> 01:01:01.559 with a gun. No, they didn't have that. I saw his Year 967 01:01:01.599 --> 01:01:05.159 one. It was in nineteen eighty nine. So he is we have to 968 01:01:05.199 --> 01:01:08.519 go through the whole like he's a crazy hermit with long hair who doesn't care. 969 01:01:08.599 --> 01:01:12.519 I'm like, okay, okay, why is he like this? Why 970 01:01:12.599 --> 01:01:16.119 let's take this through. He's not Batman anymore? Why not because he's old, 971 01:01:16.840 --> 01:01:21.280 not because he has a tragedy of some kind like Batman Beyond or Dark 972 01:01:21.320 --> 01:01:25.719 Knight Returns. Because crime has been solved. Batman is eradicated crime. Okay, 973 01:01:27.039 --> 01:01:30.280 well that's you know what, that's interesting. Let's go into that. 974 01:01:30.320 --> 01:01:32.360 And we're not gonna go into that. Oh okay, but he's gonna have 975 01:01:32.480 --> 01:01:37.159 like trash and pizza and wine everywhere and be hanging out in a sweater and 976 01:01:37.159 --> 01:01:43.440 slippers with long hobo hair and a beard. Why why? Like he's he 977 01:01:43.559 --> 01:01:46.960 depressed? No, like Dark Knight Rises Christian Bale, I didn't. I 978 01:01:47.039 --> 01:01:52.079 didn't agree with that story decision for Batman, especially a young Batman, but 979 01:01:52.159 --> 01:01:54.599 he was a reclusive with a beard and a cane in a robe. I'm 980 01:01:54.599 --> 01:01:58.840 like, okay, well, because he's depressed, why is this Ruswain doing 981 01:01:58.840 --> 01:02:02.039 this? The the Flashers they say, hey, help us save the multiverse, 982 01:02:02.079 --> 01:02:07.039 and he's like, dah, I'm not going to what why? But 983 01:02:07.119 --> 01:02:08.199 at the end he's like, you brought me back, brought you back from 984 01:02:08.239 --> 01:02:12.360 what you seem fun. So I don't. I don't even understand his character 985 01:02:12.480 --> 01:02:14.039 arc, you know what I'm saying, Like the more I think about this 986 01:02:14.039 --> 01:02:15.840 and like it doesn't make it doesn't hold up. He should be like, 987 01:02:15.880 --> 01:02:20.079 oh, a chance to be Batman again, but like my life is a 988 01:02:20.079 --> 01:02:22.760 meaningless without Batman. Yes, I can be Batman again, right, but 989 01:02:22.880 --> 01:02:27.559 no, he turns them down and he doesn't even jump at the chance. 990 01:02:27.800 --> 01:02:30.800 And then when he is Batman, he's a more effective, crazy acrobatic Batman 991 01:02:30.800 --> 01:02:34.880 than he ever was thirty years ago. He's not even wearing a cybernetic suit 992 01:02:34.920 --> 01:02:37.880 or anything. He's just Batman, you know. So, so the arc 993 01:02:37.000 --> 01:02:40.480 does not track for Keaton's Batman anything. It doesn't. No, it doesn't, 994 01:02:40.480 --> 01:02:45.199 it doesn't. And I mean presumably he's he's not still been training, 995 01:02:45.320 --> 01:02:50.760 right, He really like he's out of it, so his physical capabilities really 996 01:02:50.760 --> 01:02:52.719 do feel like a stretch. But no, it's it's very true. Yeah, 997 01:02:52.719 --> 01:02:55.239 I mean I think it really is very very thin. I mean, 998 01:02:55.239 --> 01:02:58.239 I feel like, in terms of what they give you, all you can 999 01:02:58.280 --> 01:03:01.719 really surmise is, yes, he did such a good job that Batman was 1000 01:03:01.719 --> 01:03:06.719 no longer needed and he had I mean, I guess ultimately this idea of 1001 01:03:07.800 --> 01:03:09.960 all that he had was wrapped up in Batman. So when Batman is not 1002 01:03:10.039 --> 01:03:14.719 needed, he just he has nothing else. He's never cultivated anything else. 1003 01:03:15.079 --> 01:03:16.800 But yeah, he turns him down, he gets the chance to be Batman 1004 01:03:16.840 --> 01:03:21.320 again. I know that's the piece in particular where it really falls apart that 1005 01:03:21.400 --> 01:03:24.320 I don't know's he's just so far gone at this point, I don't know, 1006 01:03:24.360 --> 01:03:28.440 but I guess he's been spending his time boning up on the you know, 1007 01:03:28.519 --> 01:03:32.719 quantum mechanics of time travel multiversal theory because he was exceedingly well versed in 1008 01:03:32.760 --> 01:03:37.440 that. So this is I think I think must have been with Star Trek 1009 01:03:37.480 --> 01:03:39.559 O nine, which kicked this off, or like you gotta have you have 1010 01:03:39.599 --> 01:03:44.519 a legacy character and they understand how multiverse works, and they got to explain 1011 01:03:44.960 --> 01:03:46.039 to everybody else. So we had in Startric Go nine, who had in 1012 01:03:46.119 --> 01:03:52.000 Lenny Boys back Terminator Genesis, who had Arnod Schwarzenegger as the Germinator explaining you 1013 01:03:52.079 --> 01:03:55.639 know, multiverse theory to people. Here you have Keatons Batman. There's other 1014 01:03:55.719 --> 01:03:58.559 versions of it, but like you know what I'm talking about, Like there's 1015 01:03:58.559 --> 01:04:00.840 always that character, usually the one that you knew from before who has the 1016 01:04:00.920 --> 01:04:04.039 knowledge. Well, John Weisley Ship and as the Flash in the arrow Verse, 1017 01:04:04.159 --> 01:04:11.199 he's that guy, right sowhat so better used, so better used John 1018 01:04:11.199 --> 01:04:14.280 Weisley Ship, Like like that guy, he was still the Flash and he 1019 01:04:14.360 --> 01:04:16.000 gave his life to save the multiverse. And it makes me cry when I 1020 01:04:16.039 --> 01:04:19.960 watch it because it's that's taken that that element from chryslo Infant Nurse of the 1021 01:04:20.039 --> 01:04:24.599 Flash saving everybody else and you're vested in anyway. I'm going on this soapbox 1022 01:04:24.719 --> 01:04:28.280 now. But that scene, like, where was there anything close to that 1023 01:04:28.400 --> 01:04:31.079 in this movie of like you know, of Keaton his Batman, It doesn't 1024 01:04:31.119 --> 01:04:33.320 hold a candle to what they did with John was the ship and the crisis 1025 01:04:33.599 --> 01:04:39.280 thing where he takes Barry that are buried CW versus Berry Speed and gives his 1026 01:04:39.360 --> 01:04:43.280 life to save him. And anyway, oh I'm getting like anyway, you 1027 01:04:43.360 --> 01:04:46.800 know what I'm saying, zach Zak has now become the Charlie. It's always 1028 01:04:46.840 --> 01:04:51.880 sunny in Philadelphia meeting for But that's that's what they should have been. You 1029 01:04:53.000 --> 01:04:55.920 know, No, I don't know what. I don't know what it could 1030 01:04:55.920 --> 01:04:59.480 have been like if Thomas Wayne would have served that function, right, that 1031 01:04:59.679 --> 01:05:03.400 that Coore element, that through line of him like the letter right, everybody, 1032 01:05:03.519 --> 01:05:08.400 everybody who don't know Flashpoint know the letter right, the Thomas Wayne writes 1033 01:05:08.440 --> 01:05:10.599 to his son and makes Batman cry at the end, you're a hell of 1034 01:05:10.679 --> 01:05:13.880 a messenger. There's none of that here because it doesn't exist because he's just 1035 01:05:13.920 --> 01:05:15.800 another Batman. I mean, he's nothing to him. Well, you know 1036 01:05:15.920 --> 01:05:17.400 that's the other thing too, And you know, not to take us too 1037 01:05:17.400 --> 01:05:23.000 far Afield with Catflic. But it's just like there too, there's no arc, 1038 01:05:23.679 --> 01:05:26.440 right, He's you know, he's there, and he has the scene 1039 01:05:26.440 --> 01:05:28.519 with Barry, and it's a great scene with the two of them. Outside 1040 01:05:28.519 --> 01:05:33.239 of Barry's play, it would be better if Barry then has this experience with 1041 01:05:33.679 --> 01:05:39.239 Bruce's father Thomas in flashpoint and then comes back and gives him the letter, 1042 01:05:39.280 --> 01:05:42.639 and you have some kind of you have some kind of payoff to this, 1043 01:05:42.760 --> 01:05:45.000 as opposed to only written that way. Because he's like, I could save 1044 01:05:45.039 --> 01:05:46.679 your parents. You're like, oh, that must have been from that draft 1045 01:05:46.800 --> 01:05:51.119 number two, right, gets paid off? Yeah. Also, I don't 1046 01:05:51.519 --> 01:05:55.760 I love I love Batfleck and I love Ben Affleck, so I don't want 1047 01:05:55.760 --> 01:05:58.079 to dump on the guy. But he's always interviews. He's talking about how 1048 01:05:58.119 --> 01:06:00.320 he's like, I finally feel like I understood how to play this character. 1049 01:06:00.360 --> 01:06:03.440 And yes, that scene with Barry in the car is very good. But 1050 01:06:03.559 --> 01:06:08.239 then we also have the Wonder Woman Lasso scenes, so it's like, well, 1051 01:06:08.280 --> 01:06:12.000 what are we doing here? I don't know. I also don't sell 1052 01:06:12.000 --> 01:06:15.599 yourself short. I really feel like I feel like he did some great work 1053 01:06:15.840 --> 01:06:18.880 in Snyder's Justice League and NBVS. But I mean, I'm bappy for him 1054 01:06:18.920 --> 01:06:21.840 that he was pleased with his flash performance. Yeah, but but yeah again 1055 01:06:21.920 --> 01:06:28.599 just when we're talking about the themes and again just setups and payoffs, and 1056 01:06:28.679 --> 01:06:30.960 we'll get into it again when we talk about the super side of it. 1057 01:06:30.079 --> 01:06:35.360 But it's just that scene with Bath Bathfleck at the beginning, or with Bruce 1058 01:06:35.400 --> 01:06:41.119 in particular, without that kind of letter scene at the end or some sort 1059 01:06:41.159 --> 01:06:45.199 of equivalent, I feel like it's it's just kind of you know, much 1060 01:06:45.199 --> 01:06:49.480 ado about nothing. And you bring up a very good point though about the 1061 01:06:49.719 --> 01:06:55.960 risk in this kind of fan service because at worst, and I would argue 1062 01:06:56.400 --> 01:07:00.480 that this might be the case here when you bring back on my Keaton, 1063 01:07:00.639 --> 01:07:06.400 if you don't do it with the care and the respect and the knowledge that 1064 01:07:06.639 --> 01:07:13.159 the diehard fans are looking for, then again you risk alienating the people who 1065 01:07:13.239 --> 01:07:16.320 it's ostensibly meant for. And at the same time you have people who don't 1066 01:07:16.360 --> 01:07:19.159 have that level of investment, so it's not going to do as much for 1067 01:07:19.280 --> 01:07:24.280 them. Again. The other thing, too, is especially within our comic 1068 01:07:24.360 --> 01:07:26.880 book, you know community, it's like, of course the Keaton Batman is 1069 01:07:26.920 --> 01:07:29.480 huge, but like I don't know for regular audiences. Again, if this 1070 01:07:29.559 --> 01:07:30.960 had been Christian Bail, and I'm not saying that I would have wanted I'm 1071 01:07:31.039 --> 01:07:34.639 I'm glad that the Bail stuff is in its own point, but it's like, 1072 01:07:34.719 --> 01:07:36.679 if it had been him, I feel like, just as far as 1073 01:07:36.719 --> 01:07:41.079 general audiences go, I feel like that would have that you know, that 1074 01:07:41.119 --> 01:07:43.400 would have So again, my point is, it's like, when you do 1075 01:07:43.519 --> 01:07:47.159 something like this, if if it's not enough to really satisfy the initiated and 1076 01:07:47.519 --> 01:07:50.519 the you know, the general audience who doesn't really have the attachment, it's 1077 01:07:50.519 --> 01:07:53.599 not doing much for them, then it's just like, what are we doing? 1078 01:07:54.079 --> 01:07:57.639 No, it's it's a hard needle, the threat it is. But 1079 01:07:57.920 --> 01:08:01.920 Spider Man Away Home found a way? Yeah? Uh so that I mean, 1080 01:08:02.039 --> 01:08:04.360 they did it before, y'all, even though I think they announced the 1081 01:08:04.400 --> 01:08:06.840 flash before the way home. Marvel's like, oh, we better get on 1082 01:08:06.920 --> 01:08:11.760 that, and at per usual, Marvel beats DC to the punts theatrically you 1083 01:08:11.800 --> 01:08:15.199 know, Thanist came out after Dark Side everybody, but no one knows that 1084 01:08:15.280 --> 01:08:18.279 anymore. M Your points valid about Keaton too, I mean as much as 1085 01:08:18.319 --> 01:08:20.279 I'm like, ass, oh, yeah, I grew up watching Michael Keaton, 1086 01:08:20.279 --> 01:08:23.760 I had my Batman returns toys as a kid. Right, how many 1087 01:08:23.840 --> 01:08:28.520 Batman have been since? Val Kilhamer, George Clooney, Christian Bale, Ben 1088 01:08:28.600 --> 01:08:30.920 Affleck, Robert Pattinson. I mean, that's just that's just you know, 1089 01:08:31.239 --> 01:08:33.399 movies and stuff, not to mention all the other versions. So it's not 1090 01:08:33.479 --> 01:08:40.039 like it's not like, for example, m Arno Sortunator come Backs the Terminator 1091 01:08:40.119 --> 01:08:43.680 for example. Now those movies have our own problems, but it's like, 1092 01:08:43.760 --> 01:08:47.159 oh it's Arnold, you know, like that point all wraps into their decision, 1093 01:08:47.680 --> 01:08:51.680 which at the time I supported. I was like, well, how 1094 01:08:51.720 --> 01:08:55.359 many more people are gonna go see this movie now that Michael Keatons in it? 1095 01:08:55.439 --> 01:09:00.239 Then that guy from Walking Dead and Supernatural as Batman what like, you 1096 01:09:00.319 --> 01:09:02.600 know, to the general public, right, might have been wrong? Might 1097 01:09:02.680 --> 01:09:06.239 have been wrong. Also, I know we've we've we've specifically focused on Jeffrey 1098 01:09:06.279 --> 01:09:10.960 Dean Morgan, but you also had Lauren Cohan from The Walking Dead as Martha, 1099 01:09:11.720 --> 01:09:15.600 and you know the Martha Martha character has a lot to do in Flashpoint 1100 01:09:15.600 --> 01:09:17.199 as well, so that again, I mean, there was such a great 1101 01:09:17.239 --> 01:09:21.119 set up there that just went completely you know, left by the wayside. 1102 01:09:21.600 --> 01:09:26.159 Yeah, and I think they underestimated that. We've said it a few times 1103 01:09:26.239 --> 01:09:30.600 now, but I think they underestimated the importance to that element of this story 1104 01:09:30.640 --> 01:09:33.239 once you start taking out ingredients, right, So that's the second pillar gone, 1105 01:09:33.560 --> 01:09:39.720 Thomas Wayne Batman and again him killing people versus the Batman who doesn't kills 1106 01:09:39.760 --> 01:09:44.000 Reverse Flash. That like only that Maatman could do that. That's its own 1107 01:09:44.039 --> 01:09:45.840 conversation in the story. But it needs to remove so many things. So 1108 01:09:46.000 --> 01:09:57.079 two pillars are gone, there is a third pillar, and we're gonna say 1109 01:09:57.079 --> 01:10:02.039 Superman for last actually because this is a Superman special Superman f that's but let's 1110 01:10:02.079 --> 01:10:09.520 talk about Barry and Reverse Flash. Um. I literally these these movies had 1111 01:10:09.560 --> 01:10:13.319 me question like was I wrong? Did Reverse Flash not kill his mom? 1112 01:10:13.359 --> 01:10:16.520 And the comics the whole it was me Barry, that whole meme is that 1113 01:10:16.600 --> 01:10:23.560 Mandela effected? Am I rock? Um? Because it's so interesting that they 1114 01:10:23.640 --> 01:10:26.760 don't care who killed Barry's mom and this like that's that's I don't know, 1115 01:10:26.840 --> 01:10:30.239 I would think that would be the first thing you would do. Is maybe 1116 01:10:30.239 --> 01:10:32.479 I'm just maybe I'm too familiar now and I've been with the TV show for 1117 01:10:32.560 --> 01:10:36.760 so long, but they did that so well, and this the show got 1118 01:10:36.960 --> 01:10:41.319 not good over several seasons. This right, but the first season is fantastic. 1119 01:10:41.920 --> 01:10:43.840 I think he kind of put us right around the third. You know, 1120 01:10:43.920 --> 01:10:45.800 basically everyone I ever talked to says they stopped watching the third myself included. 1121 01:10:46.840 --> 01:10:50.399 They came back around to it at the end of the show the ninth 1122 01:10:50.520 --> 01:10:54.199 season. They had a great episode. They kind of wrapped up that particular 1123 01:10:54.279 --> 01:10:58.760 plot, which I've found very satisfying. This series finale not to watch, 1124 01:10:58.840 --> 01:11:02.640 but but that through line of first Flash Flash, the nexus point, if 1125 01:11:02.680 --> 01:11:05.960 you will, of the night's mom died and how all that worked was done 1126 01:11:06.039 --> 01:11:10.279 so well. And I'm not saying that they need to do it exactly like 1127 01:11:10.439 --> 01:11:13.520 that, but you have that example and it was done so well. And 1128 01:11:13.640 --> 01:11:16.000 for them to just to have Reverse Flash for all intents and purposes, now 1129 01:11:16.079 --> 01:11:19.800 I understand there's Dark Flash, which was spoiled and all the toys and stuff, 1130 01:11:20.159 --> 01:11:23.319 and we all knew who that was going to be, right, but 1131 01:11:23.520 --> 01:11:26.800 to just remove Reverse Flash, who was, in my opinion, one of 1132 01:11:26.840 --> 01:11:31.800 the greatest combat villains there is because I just his just connection to Barry period, 1133 01:11:32.279 --> 01:11:35.680 like from being like a fan in the future getting his powers and anyway 1134 01:11:36.039 --> 01:11:41.920 to remove him is just crazy to me. So that's even I was thinking 1135 01:11:42.000 --> 01:11:44.560 that at least they kept this part of Flashpoint, but actually not really. 1136 01:11:44.600 --> 01:11:46.439 So that's half of a pillar is gone. So from their three pillars of 1137 01:11:46.479 --> 01:11:49.239 Flashpoint, you have half a pillar left of like Barry goes back in time 1138 01:11:49.279 --> 01:11:53.039 to stop his mom from being dead, but half of that whole thing is 1139 01:11:53.199 --> 01:11:59.760 gone, And that was a very big miss calculation in my opinion. Yes, 1140 01:12:00.000 --> 01:12:03.399 absolutely, it's It's interesting because when Jeff Johns brought Barry Allen back in 1141 01:12:03.560 --> 01:12:08.159 Flash Rebirth after I mean technically he returned in Final Crisis, but then Jeff 1142 01:12:08.199 --> 01:12:12.399 Johns did the Flash Rebirth mini series. This was years before the official Rebirth 1143 01:12:12.520 --> 01:12:17.920 publishing initiative for the very we were talking about. But I I mean, 1144 01:12:17.920 --> 01:12:21.239 I had mixed feelings about Barry coming back to begin with. You know, 1145 01:12:21.319 --> 01:12:25.279 Wally has always been my Flash. But I was still I was still interested. 1146 01:12:26.279 --> 01:12:31.319 I didn't really love this new twist on the origin story that Barry's mother 1147 01:12:31.439 --> 01:12:34.800 had died and his father was blamed for it and Reverse Flash was responsible. 1148 01:12:35.279 --> 01:12:40.600 This was not the first time that Jeff Johns added the death of a parent 1149 01:12:40.760 --> 01:12:43.600 to an origin story. Did the same thing with hal Jordan, and yeah, 1150 01:12:43.800 --> 01:12:45.600 that was that not the case for hal Jordan before. I don't believe 1151 01:12:45.680 --> 01:12:50.199 so, or if it was, it wasn't like the past, Yeah I 1152 01:12:50.319 --> 01:12:53.800 don't. I don't believe it was, or at least if his father had 1153 01:12:53.880 --> 01:12:57.079 that, it wasn't his driving motivation the way that it the way that it 1154 01:12:57.199 --> 01:13:01.520 became. Uh and short after taking over the Superman books that not this wasn't 1155 01:13:01.560 --> 01:13:04.960 a ret conto the Origin but killed off pop Kent. So it's I was 1156 01:13:05.000 --> 01:13:09.399 getting a little fed up and going back to Jeff Johns, there was a 1157 01:13:09.439 --> 01:13:12.600 point in time he I would definitely say he was my favorite. That's shifted. 1158 01:13:12.680 --> 01:13:15.319 But I've read a ton of Jeff Johns. I've enjoyed a lot, 1159 01:13:15.399 --> 01:13:18.680 so I am with you. But that's all to say that again, I 1160 01:13:18.840 --> 01:13:24.800 wasn't really all that hot on that initial idea of this change to Barry's origin. 1161 01:13:25.159 --> 01:13:29.079 But what I think is effective about it, I think you're right. 1162 01:13:29.119 --> 01:13:30.880 I think the Flash Show, when it was at its best, it was 1163 01:13:31.319 --> 01:13:34.199 dealing with that and really did a great job. But like, what makes 1164 01:13:34.199 --> 01:13:39.479 it work is that it is different than it's not a random act of violence 1165 01:13:39.560 --> 01:13:44.479 like a Batman origin story or the Peter Parker story. It's that you have 1166 01:13:44.760 --> 01:13:50.840 your greatest adversary destroying your life in this very fundamental way. And so that 1167 01:13:51.119 --> 01:13:56.880 puts a different spin on this typical kind of origin story that we've gotten with 1168 01:13:57.039 --> 01:14:00.920 this random act of violence and of parent or or parent figures death. And 1169 01:14:01.039 --> 01:14:04.359 so when you take that out, but you keep, you know, you 1170 01:14:04.399 --> 01:14:08.720 can keep the mother's death, it's like you've you've removed the piece of it 1171 01:14:08.840 --> 01:14:12.359 that I think really kind of puts that different spin on it. So I 1172 01:14:12.760 --> 01:14:15.840 and I feel like there was an interview that that the director and his sister, 1173 01:14:15.920 --> 01:14:18.800 the producer just like recently gave where they taught. I guess they're like 1174 01:14:20.000 --> 01:14:24.600 they acknowledge that Reverse Flash was the killer, and I think I didn't read 1175 01:14:24.600 --> 01:14:26.039 the whole thing, so don't hold me to this, but I think, 1176 01:14:28.000 --> 01:14:29.359 yeah, yeah, yeah, but it's like, come on, like this 1177 01:14:29.479 --> 01:14:31.880 was your this was your opportunity. Come on. I feel like that's making 1178 01:14:31.920 --> 01:14:34.119 it up after the fact, in my opinion, because if you're going to 1179 01:14:34.159 --> 01:14:38.119 have Reverse Flash, you would have had him here. Look, we don't 1180 01:14:38.159 --> 01:14:41.920 know, we can't speak for the director. We don't know what the directors, 1181 01:14:43.399 --> 01:14:45.479 you know, history and experience and knowledge level of all of the stuff 1182 01:14:45.600 --> 01:14:49.560 is. However, you know in hearing you talk about the Keen stuff and 1183 01:14:50.399 --> 01:14:54.760 you know kind of things that you might have been looking for that or abs 1184 01:14:54.840 --> 01:14:59.880 and it's just like and well, I know we'll talk more about the arrow 1185 01:15:00.119 --> 01:15:03.560 Verse, the just the glaring omission of Grand Goustin of John Wesley ship. 1186 01:15:03.640 --> 01:15:09.199 And you know, one question that I've posed kind of jokingly but not really, 1187 01:15:09.359 --> 01:15:12.960 it's like the people involved with this film, the director in particularly, 1188 01:15:12.960 --> 01:15:16.680 like do they even know about Like I've never seen any of these arrow Verse 1189 01:15:16.720 --> 01:15:20.159 show like I And again, I know it sounds like I'm being flipped and 1190 01:15:20.199 --> 01:15:23.840 I made to an extent, but I don't know. And so not that 1191 01:15:23.920 --> 01:15:27.000 he's never seen the like the Keaton movies, but as someone who does know 1192 01:15:27.079 --> 01:15:30.800 when love those movies so much, did you feel like the representation of Michael 1193 01:15:30.880 --> 01:15:35.039 Keaton and Batman eighty nine and that Mamory Turns was coming from a similar sort 1194 01:15:35.079 --> 01:15:42.079 of place. There's there's some elements. Yes, I mean it's not a 1195 01:15:42.159 --> 01:15:46.000 complete unrecognizable thing. I Like I mentioned the bad plant, the new batwing 1196 01:15:46.640 --> 01:15:50.560 not the same batwing from before, but that one got destroyed, of course 1197 01:15:50.600 --> 01:15:55.520 you'd have a new batwing. And I think it was a great evolution of 1198 01:15:55.680 --> 01:15:59.319 those designs of vehicles. I'm like, Okay, check the Batcave. Cool, 1199 01:15:59.439 --> 01:16:04.119 great matter. Sure Batman when he's when during the Supergirl rescue, for 1200 01:16:04.279 --> 01:16:09.279 the most part, I liked it. He was using tools and gadgets, 1201 01:16:09.319 --> 01:16:13.399 and that's the kind of Batman he is in darkness, right, in shadow 1202 01:16:14.119 --> 01:16:16.720 but Batman both Batman or in the daylight seventy five percent of the time. 1203 01:16:16.720 --> 01:16:19.520 And that's like, did you what? That's not Batman? Like, I 1204 01:16:19.600 --> 01:16:24.239 don't you don't understand, like, what are you doing? But yes, 1205 01:16:24.319 --> 01:16:28.920 some of that Michael Keaton stuff was good, but it just I just could 1206 01:16:28.920 --> 01:16:32.039 have been any Batman. Here's a random sort tangent. I don't know why 1207 01:16:32.079 --> 01:16:34.239 he thought about this, right, but I was thinking, like, give 1208 01:16:34.319 --> 01:16:40.479 me some sort of evolution of where we are, right and adding stakes right, 1209 01:16:40.560 --> 01:16:42.920 And I thought about and I don't know, like this is a different 1210 01:16:43.000 --> 01:16:46.039 movie, multiverse jumping all that. What if Ezra Miller showed up in the 1211 01:16:46.119 --> 01:16:50.920 universe flash where Crystal'donald was Batman, you know, and you're like, wow, 1212 01:16:51.520 --> 01:16:56.079 that's interesting, And then I don't know who is Batman what maybe his 1213 01:16:56.159 --> 01:16:58.319 Batman is dead. I don't know who it is. It could have been 1214 01:16:58.520 --> 01:17:00.359 filling the blank. He could have been Michael Keat, it could have been 1215 01:17:00.399 --> 01:17:01.720 Valkimer, could have been George Clinty, right, and then they have a 1216 01:17:01.760 --> 01:17:04.960 conversation. They have conversation similar the way that told me McGuire has conversations with 1217 01:17:05.039 --> 01:17:08.560 Tom Holland about like, oh yeah, my best friend I had to kill 1218 01:17:08.680 --> 01:17:13.920 him or row. I just thought, I'm just thinking about like like something 1219 01:17:14.720 --> 01:17:16.039 um that would be like, oh, make you like kind of sit up 1220 01:17:16.079 --> 01:17:19.199 and pay attention to some sort of stakes and like, but then you have 1221 01:17:19.279 --> 01:17:24.640 to be like if Crystal'donald has to help you in order to restore Val Kilmer. 1222 01:17:24.640 --> 01:17:26.520 I don't know, I don't know how you play that out, but 1223 01:17:26.640 --> 01:17:28.840 I'm just saying, like as an experiment to have something like oh, well 1224 01:17:28.880 --> 01:17:31.319 that is interesting and not just like oh yeah, well okay, I he's 1225 01:17:31.399 --> 01:17:34.199 crazy hobo brus way and he comes back and does some Batman stuff and and 1226 01:17:34.279 --> 01:17:38.560 quote unquote plays the hits as a as a terment I've heard being used and 1227 01:17:38.920 --> 01:17:45.640 I would agree, like the yeah I'm Batman. No no, that is 1228 01:17:46.520 --> 01:17:49.640 that was so super Bowl. It literally was a Supermo commercial, but it 1229 01:17:49.760 --> 01:17:53.720 was like a like a like a Dorito's commercial, kind of like where people 1230 01:17:53.720 --> 01:17:56.399 show up and then play their famous characters. Like I've said this before, 1231 01:17:56.399 --> 01:17:58.079 I said on the other podcast, I'll say it again. I said it 1232 01:17:58.159 --> 01:18:00.399 years ago. Actually, if you go back and listen to a podcast the 1233 01:18:00.479 --> 01:18:03.239 way you do that and I'm not saying and again I'm not saying that because 1234 01:18:03.279 --> 01:18:05.399 they didn't do this way I came up with my head five years ago. 1235 01:18:05.439 --> 01:18:10.600 It sucks. I'm saying this is a better way. As a Miller flash 1236 01:18:10.640 --> 01:18:13.840 shows up in a Tim Burton looking Gotham, I think that's essential. But 1237 01:18:13.960 --> 01:18:16.000 we didn't care about that, did we. That taxi's from Central City. 1238 01:18:16.159 --> 01:18:18.279 He drove all the way to Gotham City. By the way, we saw 1239 01:18:18.319 --> 01:18:21.079 how far apart those were at the beginning of the film Man, that taxi 1240 01:18:21.119 --> 01:18:24.880 guy's getting a lot of money. All right, I'm going on answer. 1241 01:18:25.319 --> 01:18:30.920 But as a Miller flash shows up in a ken Burton esque Gotham and he 1242 01:18:30.039 --> 01:18:33.680 sees some commotion going on, and he sees Batman. Just you see the 1243 01:18:33.800 --> 01:18:35.720 cape and calbum or whatever. You don't see who it is, right, 1244 01:18:35.720 --> 01:18:39.279 It seems just kills somebody or something. Right, he said, whoa, 1245 01:18:39.279 --> 01:18:41.760 who are you? It turns around as Michael King's like, I'm Batman and 1246 01:18:41.760 --> 01:18:45.039 I'm like, whoa, Like what an interesting reintroduction of the character that have 1247 01:18:45.159 --> 01:18:53.319 been Instead of crazy hobob'restween fighting you, it is Kitchen for example. Yeah, 1248 01:18:53.359 --> 01:18:54.920 So, like, I get what you're saying. And that's why I 1249 01:18:54.960 --> 01:18:58.319 brought up this question about the director's intention. It's like, I assume that 1250 01:18:58.800 --> 01:19:02.840 everyone involved was well intention but I guess if it with Keaton in particular, 1251 01:19:02.920 --> 01:19:05.399 just as the example, I don't know. Part of me just feels like 1252 01:19:05.439 --> 01:19:11.840 if it were coming from that place of you know, love for those original 1253 01:19:11.920 --> 01:19:15.880 movies, like you would think maybe that that they would take the opportunity to 1254 01:19:16.000 --> 01:19:20.119 do some of those things that you're referencing right too, to answer some of 1255 01:19:20.199 --> 01:19:24.920 those questions about the character that they've always wondered that we've always wondered. It 1256 01:19:25.079 --> 01:19:28.840 was the bat Cave with like you know, the mister Freeze gun and the 1257 01:19:28.880 --> 01:19:31.760 two phase coin, just to say that he had these adventures, right exactly. 1258 01:19:32.119 --> 01:19:34.760 So the lack of that, for the most part, I don't know, 1259 01:19:34.840 --> 01:19:38.279 it just makes me wonder, well that you talk about spoiling stuff in 1260 01:19:38.319 --> 01:19:41.239 the trailers like that, They're right, you saw those all those batsuits and 1261 01:19:41.239 --> 01:19:44.840 the chillers, the ones I was criticizing earlier. But again I like the 1262 01:19:44.920 --> 01:19:47.039 idea. I appreciate the idea because Batman has us. But while they up 1263 01:19:47.159 --> 01:19:49.119 the while they up in the library, by the way, man, or 1264 01:19:49.119 --> 01:19:55.039 why aren't they in the back cave? Anyway, but the extent that we 1265 01:19:55.079 --> 01:19:58.279 saw them in the trailers is the extent that we saw in the movie. 1266 01:19:59.319 --> 01:20:01.479 Like what is that? Like, I don't like you? That teases more, 1267 01:20:01.640 --> 01:20:04.760 but like, oh no, that's it anyway, So this is the 1268 01:20:04.800 --> 01:20:10.399 flash portion of the back to Keaton again, but that we're talking about this 1269 01:20:10.399 --> 01:20:14.479 because you're talking about the first flash and carrying on the the the spirit of 1270 01:20:14.600 --> 01:20:17.880 things and removing reverse flash, and this removes the spirit of things, Like 1271 01:20:17.960 --> 01:20:20.319 are we to assume I don't. I don't think they were trying to say 1272 01:20:20.359 --> 01:20:25.439 this, but dark flash is not reverse flash. Dark flash is just twisted 1273 01:20:25.760 --> 01:20:29.199 future Barry and he certainly need to go back and kill his mom because he 1274 01:20:29.239 --> 01:20:33.199 wanted to stop you know, the original Berry from letting her die. So 1275 01:20:34.640 --> 01:20:36.600 I don't know, like and that it works for me too, Like I 1276 01:20:36.720 --> 01:20:40.479 agree, it gets kind of like he does every superhero need some kind of 1277 01:20:40.600 --> 01:20:44.039 tragic origin, right, Like can we not have just somebody with a nuclear 1278 01:20:44.079 --> 01:20:45.800 family, you know, who decides to do the right thing because it's the 1279 01:20:45.920 --> 01:20:48.720 right thing to do, and that's the beauty of the Flash. Retcon is 1280 01:20:48.720 --> 01:20:53.479 like, oh well he had that until his arch nemesis took that away from 1281 01:20:53.520 --> 01:20:56.760 it. And in one of the spinoff like Worlds Will Flush Point Comics, 1282 01:20:57.000 --> 01:21:00.079 there's a short story about reverse Flash just slowly changing thing like there's one in 1283 01:21:00.119 --> 01:21:03.560 particular like Barry has a friend and then like verse Flash like races his friend 1284 01:21:03.600 --> 01:21:05.840 from history and he's like and then you were by yourself like god, like 1285 01:21:05.920 --> 01:21:09.439 this is but he's a psychopath, like this is who That's how he is. 1286 01:21:09.720 --> 01:21:13.000 So that's so interesting, right, and that's just all gone. It's 1287 01:21:13.039 --> 01:21:15.039 just oh yeah, it's just I'm Barry, I'm the other word, goofy 1288 01:21:15.079 --> 01:21:17.760 lomb but now I'm super evil because I've done this one hundred thousand times and 1289 01:21:17.840 --> 01:21:25.359 I'm like, oh okay. So then it's like here thinking about we're talking 1290 01:21:25.359 --> 01:21:29.960 about the Flash part all those right, the climax of this they keep going 1291 01:21:30.039 --> 01:21:33.640 back in time, Like what five minutes, right, should there not be 1292 01:21:33.760 --> 01:21:39.479 like one hundred thousand flashes running around to fight the Kryptonians, you would think 1293 01:21:39.800 --> 01:21:42.720 based off the rules of this, because the rules of this I'm not talking 1294 01:21:42.720 --> 01:21:45.840 about any other science fiction whatever, the rules of this film clearly show. 1295 01:21:45.439 --> 01:21:50.159 When Barry goes back, like to the grocery store, he sees the other 1296 01:21:50.239 --> 01:21:55.359 Barry there, so they're both there. You know, I know, I 1297 01:21:55.520 --> 01:21:59.760 know that's a good point. It's not just that it's it's breaking what we've 1298 01:22:00.159 --> 01:22:02.760 to understand to be the rules of time travel from other things. It's not 1299 01:22:03.039 --> 01:22:08.319 adhering to what it itself has set up here. And again, just going 1300 01:22:08.359 --> 01:22:11.560 back to the murder of Barry's mother, Yeah, I mean, regardless of 1301 01:22:11.640 --> 01:22:15.800 what they're now claiming in these interviews, we all we have to go on 1302 01:22:15.000 --> 01:22:19.920 is what we were presented with in this movie. And again, unless and 1303 01:22:20.000 --> 01:22:24.239 until we get another movie that fills in the backstory, it's it just the 1304 01:22:24.279 --> 01:22:29.479 way it plays is just it was a random act of violence, which again 1305 01:22:29.720 --> 01:22:32.399 is we've seen this in other stories. And look, the ultimate emotional journey 1306 01:22:32.479 --> 01:22:35.479 here still is what it is, and the ultimate lesson that he needs to 1307 01:22:35.600 --> 01:22:42.279 learn of he can't fix everything. Sure we still have that, but uh, 1308 01:22:42.840 --> 01:22:45.520 yeah, I don't know. I feel like it's definitely lacking something there. 1309 01:22:45.560 --> 01:22:47.760 And yes, the whole time travel aspect, yeah, it did not 1310 01:22:47.880 --> 01:22:51.640 follow its own rules. I mean, unless there's I don't know, you 1311 01:22:51.720 --> 01:22:55.760 probably hear from someone who has some other way way to account for this. 1312 01:22:55.800 --> 01:22:58.199 I don't know if we're missing something, But well, couple a couple more 1313 01:22:58.279 --> 01:23:00.960 things on the Flash part of it all, like the thing with the Flash's 1314 01:23:01.079 --> 01:23:05.159 dad with with Henry Allen in the comics, Actually he's died in prison, 1315 01:23:06.520 --> 01:23:10.119 you know, like that's he's not a factor, right, So I think 1316 01:23:10.720 --> 01:23:13.840 maybe then, I don't know, maybe there's a comic that did it again 1317 01:23:13.880 --> 01:23:15.920 and it's different interpretations. But in the TV show, obviously they had the 1318 01:23:15.960 --> 01:23:19.960 John Wiley ship factor playing the dad, and that was such a huge emotional 1319 01:23:20.000 --> 01:23:24.680 anchor for that first season, which they just oddly threw away in the second 1320 01:23:24.720 --> 01:23:26.680 season. By the way, that's the one of the weirdest choices that they're 1321 01:23:26.680 --> 01:23:28.880 like, well, Son, I'm out of jail, I have to go 1322 01:23:29.000 --> 01:23:30.680 on a walk about about this world. What what where you going? Like? 1323 01:23:30.760 --> 01:23:33.159 Could you not just have made him a make character for out of season. 1324 01:23:33.239 --> 01:23:38.159 Anyway, it's a very strange creative choice. The Billy Krutip Ezra Miller 1325 01:23:38.279 --> 01:23:42.680 vibe was great in Justice League. I thought recasting with Ron Livingston, fine, 1326 01:23:42.880 --> 01:23:45.600 I guess, but you're telling me Brittley Krutip couldn't have found a week 1327 01:23:45.640 --> 01:23:49.640 out of his schedule to do this. I know that's the thing. Unless 1328 01:23:50.079 --> 01:23:54.000 there and again we know it went through all these different the script at least 1329 01:23:54.000 --> 01:23:56.479 went through all of these different versions, and who knows what's on the cutting 1330 01:23:56.560 --> 01:24:00.800 room floor, unless there was more at the outset or more that they filmed 1331 01:24:00.840 --> 01:24:02.039 than that precluded him. I don't know, But you're right. You look 1332 01:24:02.079 --> 01:24:05.319 at what you ultimately get in this movie, and that that first scene of 1333 01:24:05.399 --> 01:24:10.800 him on the phone that I have been anywhere, Yes, don't even have 1334 01:24:10.880 --> 01:24:14.239 a face to face. We got one in Justice League, but he didn't 1335 01:24:14.279 --> 01:24:16.640 have it here. That's that's crazy for for this because what should his drive 1336 01:24:16.720 --> 01:24:20.439 be, not just to save his mom, but to make his dad absolved 1337 01:24:20.479 --> 01:24:24.479 from this crime? He has no He tucks us down on the phone, 1338 01:24:25.239 --> 01:24:28.039 and then he's in the same courtroom with him at the end, and that's 1339 01:24:28.079 --> 01:24:31.600 it. There's nowhere's that bond for for what two scenes in Justice League you 1340 01:24:31.640 --> 01:24:34.520 failed it and obviously in the flast TV show you feel and that's if you're 1341 01:24:34.520 --> 01:24:38.479 going to go that route, you got to establish it, right. Yes, 1342 01:24:39.640 --> 01:24:42.279 let's dissect I really I've want to discuss this for just just a couple 1343 01:24:42.279 --> 01:24:46.960 of minutes, proving that Henry Allen didn't kill Nora. So there's a there's 1344 01:24:47.039 --> 01:24:50.680 one surveillance camera in this grocery store, and it happens to be right over 1345 01:24:50.720 --> 01:24:54.800 the cannon tomatoes. There's no other surveillance cameras apparently, are we is that 1346 01:24:54.840 --> 01:25:00.199 where we should believed there's no surveillance cameras. I guess he paid or I 1347 01:25:00.239 --> 01:25:01.479 don't know if they maybe they even said this that he paid with cash. 1348 01:25:01.840 --> 01:25:04.039 I don't recall that, but I'm like, theres there no receipt, No, 1349 01:25:04.479 --> 01:25:09.640 no receipt, No, the cashier couldn't identify him. There was no 1350 01:25:10.319 --> 01:25:15.319 traffic cam. I mean, I guess this was going back. That's the 1351 01:25:15.479 --> 01:25:19.479 thing I know. Yeah, see, I wanted to give them. I 1352 01:25:19.600 --> 01:25:23.560 know it's it's a man of Steel time the same days. Yeah. Actually, 1353 01:25:23.600 --> 01:25:25.720 wait wait a second, No, not twenty thirteen. I'm sorry, 1354 01:25:25.760 --> 01:25:27.880 it is a little further back. Yeah, when he's a kid, but 1355 01:25:28.119 --> 01:25:31.439 still not Yeah, yeah, yes, it does feel like a bit of 1356 01:25:31.479 --> 01:25:36.000 a stretch that there is. I looked. I mean, that didn't ruin 1357 01:25:36.039 --> 01:25:40.039 the movie for me. There was enough going on that you start thinking about 1358 01:25:40.079 --> 01:25:43.239 these things because you're like, well I was, and here's the final to 1359 01:25:43.319 --> 01:25:45.600 me, the nail and off I'm like, oh, so all that to 1360 01:25:45.720 --> 01:25:50.000 say from the prosecution, I was like, well, yeah, he came 1361 01:25:50.000 --> 01:25:54.319 home from the store and he stabbed his wife and she died, right, 1362 01:25:55.600 --> 01:25:58.640 yeah, yeah, he doesn't come home and finally she's been dead for two 1363 01:25:58.680 --> 01:26:00.800 hours. He's like, she's with a knife in her chest. When as 1364 01:26:00.880 --> 01:26:04.000 he gets home this all happened to Simon takes. We see Barry upstairs doing 1365 01:26:04.039 --> 01:26:09.880 his math or whatever, and you hear that disturbance presumably the person who killed 1366 01:26:09.960 --> 01:26:13.159 Nora, and then you see Hiter you're getting home at the exact same time, 1367 01:26:13.840 --> 01:26:16.960 So that proves nothing that time, even if even if you have the 1368 01:26:17.000 --> 01:26:20.159 exact time stamping him the store. In my opinion, right boy, that 1369 01:26:20.159 --> 01:26:23.880 would have been a real kicker of an ending. You're in that courthouse scene 1370 01:26:23.920 --> 01:26:27.920 and you think we're ready for this triumphant moment of victory here and then the 1371 01:26:28.039 --> 01:26:31.640 judge is like, well that's great, mister Allen, but that stuff anyway, 1372 01:26:31.960 --> 01:26:34.399 I mean, I'm I'm sure people like, oh, just lit it 1373 01:26:34.439 --> 01:26:35.880 go, man, I'm like, no, no, no, this is 1374 01:26:35.920 --> 01:26:40.000 the crux of this thing, like, you know, the whole again, 1375 01:26:40.199 --> 01:26:43.720 to use the TV show, it's like, yeah, you were home alone, 1376 01:26:44.039 --> 01:26:45.880 the two of you, in the middle of the night, right, 1377 01:26:45.319 --> 01:26:49.960 there's no one else even around, Like the setup is you know, perfect 1378 01:26:50.000 --> 01:26:54.880 for that like kind of misunderstanding, and you wouldn't understand why he would be 1379 01:26:55.000 --> 01:26:57.319 like convicted of that. Right. Also, it was a night, which 1380 01:26:57.399 --> 01:27:00.600 is way more likely than like in the middle of a Saturday afternoon breaking into 1381 01:27:00.159 --> 01:27:04.600 in a nice neighborhood some random to assume, some random mugger just broke into 1382 01:27:04.600 --> 01:27:09.039 their house and stabbed her in the chest with a knife and then just let 1383 01:27:09.199 --> 01:27:12.399 yeah did it. Well that's the other thing too, Or again it hasn't 1384 01:27:12.399 --> 01:27:15.319 been it hasn't been that long. But maybe I'm already forgetting was it was 1385 01:27:15.399 --> 01:27:19.680 the idea that when Henry came back, he somehow scared heard that, oh 1386 01:27:19.720 --> 01:27:23.760 we heard my dad came home when you ran off. Yeah maybe, but 1387 01:27:24.079 --> 01:27:26.960 you know, and again, I know we can keep referencing the Flash Show. 1388 01:27:26.960 --> 01:27:30.600 But but it is true. It's like it's so recent, and I've 1389 01:27:30.640 --> 01:27:35.279 been saying this, Um, there's with the emotional pieces of this, with 1390 01:27:35.560 --> 01:27:41.359 respect to Barry and his parents, there's nothing here. And again, especially 1391 01:27:41.399 --> 01:27:43.920 when we get to that supermarket scene at the end that worked, I feel 1392 01:27:43.960 --> 01:27:45.399 like that, you know, I was, I was. I felt that 1393 01:27:45.520 --> 01:27:49.640 moment there, especially compared to everything else. But it's still nothing that the 1394 01:27:49.720 --> 01:27:55.279 TV show didn't do first, or better or over a longer period of time. 1395 01:27:55.319 --> 01:27:58.119 And then but now again going back to my friend riche like he barely 1396 01:27:58.199 --> 01:28:00.520 watched the show. So when I'm like, the show didn't like that, 1397 01:28:00.760 --> 01:28:03.439 you know, like it doesn't really mean anything. So like that's why I 1398 01:28:03.520 --> 01:28:08.399 keep saying. I do get why things would break differently for different people depending 1399 01:28:08.399 --> 01:28:11.560 on where they're coming from with this. But as people who watched again at 1400 01:28:11.640 --> 01:28:15.520 least those first couple of strong seasons of the show, you got a much 1401 01:28:15.800 --> 01:28:21.119 a much more resonant version of this. Yeah, so all that, so 1402 01:28:21.279 --> 01:28:27.039 this is the Flash right combook two and a half of the pillars of that 1403 01:28:27.119 --> 01:28:29.920 are gone. Right. Wait, yes, and I'm sorry, I don't 1404 01:28:29.920 --> 01:28:31.880 mean, I don't mean to belabor why to keep eating up. But you 1405 01:28:31.920 --> 01:28:35.640 know what it is because I think I get why it's bothering me so much, 1406 01:28:36.479 --> 01:28:40.840 especially when we're talking about the television show. It's like, if there's 1407 01:28:41.079 --> 01:28:45.720 another very recent example of a of another project like telling the same kind of 1408 01:28:45.760 --> 01:28:49.319 story, if you're going to kind of you know, venture into the same 1409 01:28:49.439 --> 01:28:54.680 territory, you need to make it better, add something, make it more 1410 01:28:54.800 --> 01:28:59.279 interesting. They just took things away, and so it's just like it's like 1411 01:28:59.439 --> 01:29:00.319 kind of like bad Fling. To me, It's like you would think, 1412 01:29:00.319 --> 01:29:02.119 okay, well, like we know where this show did this, Like well, 1413 01:29:02.399 --> 01:29:05.880 but again that's why I'm saying I don't know that anyone involved like really 1414 01:29:05.960 --> 01:29:12.000 gave any consideration to the fact that there was this decade long show with Grand 1415 01:29:12.039 --> 01:29:15.640 Custin. Well take things away. You understand why the TV show had a 1416 01:29:15.720 --> 01:29:18.279 very small scale flashpoint. I think, you know, if you look at 1417 01:29:18.279 --> 01:29:20.640 the arrow verse, you're like, that's a missed opportunity. I don't understand 1418 01:29:20.640 --> 01:29:25.319 they had. They would have to coordinate a lot, but like have two 1419 01:29:25.439 --> 01:29:30.199 episodes on each show where Robert Queen is the green Arrow or really lean into 1420 01:29:30.279 --> 01:29:32.119 that, and they didn't. It was just like, oh, Diggle has 1421 01:29:32.159 --> 01:29:38.560 a son now instead. Oh, and Cisco's brother's dead. Oh oh, 1422 01:29:38.680 --> 01:29:42.119 and Caitlyn is the skill of Frost. Okay, but other than that, 1423 01:29:42.239 --> 01:29:45.560 like what are the repercussions make time that I get so good? The great 1424 01:29:45.560 --> 01:29:46.960 scene where Jay Garrett pulls him out and they're, hey, you're gonna keep 1425 01:29:46.960 --> 01:29:49.039 going back in time and fixing the stuff? You can't do this? Like 1426 01:29:49.239 --> 01:29:53.279 where is that? Oh, anyway, we're gonna it's gonna go off on 1427 01:29:53.319 --> 01:29:57.960 these stanges. But you're absolutely right. I understand the why the show. 1428 01:29:58.840 --> 01:30:01.000 The show can't do one or one Zakaman of course, not show can't do 1429 01:30:01.079 --> 01:30:03.359 Tom was wing Batman, of course, not the movie that's where you do 1430 01:30:03.479 --> 01:30:05.680 it. And they didn't do any of that. And here we are, 1431 01:30:05.840 --> 01:30:10.479 and we've we've established they've erased two and a half pillars of what the story 1432 01:30:10.600 --> 01:30:14.439 is supposed to be about. Yeah, they kept Barry getting electrocuted, which 1433 01:30:15.119 --> 01:30:18.079 going back, but going back to that that comic when it first came out, 1434 01:30:18.880 --> 01:30:20.640 this is a separate thing. But I you know, I was. 1435 01:30:21.119 --> 01:30:26.000 I was a little bit put off by the impending new fifty two relaunched that 1436 01:30:26.119 --> 01:30:29.079 was coming. So I don't know that I ever really gave flashpoint of fair 1437 01:30:29.079 --> 01:30:30.760 shake because I was thinking more about what was what was coming. I've since 1438 01:30:30.800 --> 01:30:34.359 made my piece with the New fifty two, but anyway, but I just 1439 01:30:34.479 --> 01:30:39.279 felt like it always. I wasn't the biggest fan of Barry at the time, 1440 01:30:39.520 --> 01:30:42.560 I wasn't looking forward to the New fifty two, and I just remember 1441 01:30:42.640 --> 01:30:45.279 like just being frustrated with the character and how absurd it was that he just 1442 01:30:45.399 --> 01:30:48.760 keeps electrocuting himself, you know, until until he gets his powers back. 1443 01:30:48.800 --> 01:30:54.640 But now it's just become this this pillar of the story where we're losing all 1444 01:30:54.720 --> 01:31:00.319 this stuff. We still this guy still gets electrocuted repeatedly. Okay, well 1445 01:31:00.520 --> 01:31:02.439 that's a good thing. We haven't really talked about yet. Let's discuss this 1446 01:31:02.680 --> 01:31:06.399 the two very alids. Right in retrospect, what a horrible idea to have 1447 01:31:06.439 --> 01:31:11.720 two edzor Millers in this film. But I would even argue beforehand, why 1448 01:31:11.760 --> 01:31:14.720 would you put two editors or Millers in this film? But I thought you 1449 01:31:14.760 --> 01:31:19.560 were going too much. But everybody's least favorite Justice League member, I think 1450 01:31:20.039 --> 01:31:24.039 because you look at that guy and you're like, this is not the very 1451 01:31:24.079 --> 01:31:27.199 album that I know. On the concurrent running Flash TV show to your point. 1452 01:31:27.239 --> 01:31:31.479 You you're just describe him. But so there is a thing in Flashpoint 1453 01:31:31.479 --> 01:31:35.039 where he shows up in a different timeline and he doesn't have his powers because 1454 01:31:35.079 --> 01:31:38.960 he's never that makes sense. He changed the past, why would he be 1455 01:31:39.000 --> 01:31:41.920 the flash anymore? All Right, so he has to have Thomas Wayne Batman 1456 01:31:41.960 --> 01:31:45.800 help him recreate the accident. Fine, great, great, but here they've 1457 01:31:45.880 --> 01:31:50.159 mixed multiverse and timeline with that bubble spaghetti, which you know mentioned briefly. 1458 01:31:50.239 --> 01:31:55.640 Are I honestly didn't hate that explanation. I was like, Okay, for 1459 01:31:55.800 --> 01:31:58.600 what you're trying to sell us, I guess that's a good explanation as any. 1460 01:31:59.239 --> 01:32:02.159 It's it's far more of an explanation. And I thought they were going 1461 01:32:02.239 --> 01:32:05.159 to give us because we were talking about this ahead of time, and I 1462 01:32:05.439 --> 01:32:09.199 still laughed because I was it was pretty close to the movie coming out. 1463 01:32:09.239 --> 01:32:12.720 I still clearly didn't know what this movie was about, because I watched and 1464 01:32:13.159 --> 01:32:15.760 I just kept thinking it was just they were on another Earth, and then 1465 01:32:15.840 --> 01:32:17.880 you were like, no, no, it's like it's still the same timeline. 1466 01:32:18.000 --> 01:32:20.880 And the reason why I was so initially confused was it was like, 1467 01:32:20.960 --> 01:32:26.520 how on Earth with changing the events surrounding Nora's death lead to Michael Keaton being 1468 01:32:26.560 --> 01:32:29.840 Batman. I just kept bumping up against that. And then I watched the 1469 01:32:29.880 --> 01:32:30.800 trailers again. I was like, okay, like I get what we're doing 1470 01:32:30.840 --> 01:32:33.479 here, but in no way that I think they were actually going to account 1471 01:32:33.479 --> 01:32:36.399 for this. And like I figured there would be some jokey throwaway line about 1472 01:32:36.439 --> 01:32:41.199 this and that would be it. So the fact exactly so like the fact 1473 01:32:41.239 --> 01:32:44.640 that they took the time to explain the fulcrum point and you change what came 1474 01:32:44.720 --> 01:32:46.680 before and what came after. It's what I don't know why I watch it 1475 01:32:46.720 --> 01:32:50.359 really tracks, but at least they did that. I know we've been very 1476 01:32:50.399 --> 01:32:53.800 hard on the movie, but I do I did at least appreciate that. 1477 01:32:54.159 --> 01:32:57.479 I agree. I found, like, you know what's it's a take on 1478 01:32:57.840 --> 01:33:00.920 on these things that we haven't seen before war. And that's saying a lot 1479 01:33:00.000 --> 01:33:04.880 for something that we've seen hundreds of times across all multimedia and fiction. So 1480 01:33:06.880 --> 01:33:10.720 this Barry's like, oh no, this is the day I got my powers. 1481 01:33:10.760 --> 01:33:14.720 If you don't get struck by lightning right, then I won't have my 1482 01:33:14.800 --> 01:33:16.119 powers, and I then I'll have don't have a future to go back to 1483 01:33:16.319 --> 01:33:19.479 I'm like, okay, so we did the whole thing where he has to 1484 01:33:19.600 --> 01:33:23.680 get and this is a clever We're gonna get some credit here. We never 1485 01:33:23.720 --> 01:33:26.520 saw the origin in the flash so we get to see that origin through this 1486 01:33:27.479 --> 01:33:30.920 of him, you know, making himself go through the origin that he went 1487 01:33:30.960 --> 01:33:32.760 through them we never saw. That's actually a very clever story thing did to 1488 01:33:32.840 --> 01:33:38.560 show you this, right, but through the second Barrier getting the powers, 1489 01:33:38.600 --> 01:33:42.159 the first Barry loses the powers. Like does that make sense? I don't 1490 01:33:42.159 --> 01:33:45.760 know, but they had to. They wanted to keep that from flash point, 1491 01:33:45.760 --> 01:33:46.800 the Barry without the bars. And then I realized, oh, I'm 1492 01:33:46.800 --> 01:33:50.079 the trailers we were seeing we're we were seeing the opposite Barry in the suit 1493 01:33:50.159 --> 01:33:54.840 the whole time. You know, I didn't realize this. That was It's 1494 01:33:54.880 --> 01:33:58.199 so funny. For as much as they gave away, and man did they 1495 01:33:58.279 --> 01:34:00.359 give away, like all most all of it. I feel like it wasn't 1496 01:34:00.399 --> 01:34:03.560 until one of the reviews. It might have been like the Variety of review 1497 01:34:03.640 --> 01:34:08.079 or something like that. There was a review I feel like that made reference 1498 01:34:08.119 --> 01:34:11.960 to the fact that that Barry ends up powerless for a portion of the film, 1499 01:34:12.000 --> 01:34:15.039 and it was one of the few things that would have been a surprise. 1500 01:34:15.520 --> 01:34:20.920 That's the no, no stone left undered and so but that's that's the 1501 01:34:21.000 --> 01:34:25.159 thing, like we have to keep this from thee the electrocution the twice, 1502 01:34:25.199 --> 01:34:30.119 and I'm like, okay, whatever, but okay, you think this through. 1503 01:34:30.159 --> 01:34:31.720 And then at the end, right, because he's like, oh no, 1504 01:34:31.840 --> 01:34:35.920 what happens to this Berry is going to affect me. So if this 1505 01:34:36.520 --> 01:34:40.560 fault fell here, if this Barry doesn't get his powers, I'm not gonna 1506 01:34:40.560 --> 01:34:42.439 have my power. So I gotta make sure he gets his powers. Okay, 1507 01:34:43.159 --> 01:34:45.319 I follow that lodging. But then at the end of the movie, 1508 01:34:46.119 --> 01:34:53.159 when it's revealed the dark Flash is the other Berry. When the Dark Flash 1509 01:34:53.239 --> 01:34:56.920 is going to kill DCU Berry, the other Berry gets in the way and 1510 01:34:57.000 --> 01:35:03.000 dies, therefore racing the your dark Flash, which like in the Flash season 1511 01:35:03.039 --> 01:35:08.119 one when Eddie than killed himself and E raised the reverse Flash. But then 1512 01:35:08.359 --> 01:35:13.359 the DCU Berry is fine, it doesn't affect him at all. Why all 1513 01:35:13.439 --> 01:35:15.960 right? So I don't I don't. I don't want to. I hate 1514 01:35:15.000 --> 01:35:17.680 being in this position of like trying to defend or explain this movie because I 1515 01:35:17.840 --> 01:35:26.000 like it doesn't deserve it. But the only thing when when Keaton Batman goes 1516 01:35:26.039 --> 01:35:31.800 through that holes the whole spaghetti explanation and this idea that you're creating, you're 1517 01:35:31.880 --> 01:35:38.399 essentially creating the multiverse, right or tapping into the multiverse? Is it? 1518 01:35:38.479 --> 01:35:44.640 Could it be the case that initially, when present Barry meets it past Barry, 1519 01:35:45.159 --> 01:35:47.800 you know he's thinking of it really and more of that strict straight linear 1520 01:35:48.760 --> 01:35:50.720 timeline, Mike, if you don't get your powers and I don't get my 1521 01:35:50.800 --> 01:35:56.720 powers. But then when we get this wider explanation of oh you're you're on 1522 01:35:56.840 --> 01:36:02.000 another world now, the it's not not so much of that connection anymore, 1523 01:36:02.039 --> 01:36:05.680 and you know, pass back or you know, the younger Barry can can 1524 01:36:05.800 --> 01:36:10.640 die to prevent himself from becoming Dark Flash, but our Barry can then just 1525 01:36:10.720 --> 01:36:13.079 jump to a different time. I mean, as I'm saying this, I'm 1526 01:36:13.079 --> 01:36:15.640 like, I know this doesn't make sense, but I don't know. I 1527 01:36:15.720 --> 01:36:19.239 don't I don't really know how else to account for this. And it's well, 1528 01:36:19.239 --> 01:36:21.640 your guys are nip picking. Like I like these things to make sense. 1529 01:36:23.720 --> 01:36:26.720 That's why we talk about these things for hours, because I want to 1530 01:36:26.720 --> 01:36:28.279 be able to like, oh, well, let me be like I have 1531 01:36:28.359 --> 01:36:30.800 the Star Trek and Syclopedia on my show, for I like to understand that 1532 01:36:30.119 --> 01:36:36.199 how these things work, right, So it's it's just a case of of 1533 01:36:36.319 --> 01:36:40.159 them not thinking it through, I think, because but the whole thing was 1534 01:36:40.880 --> 01:36:43.159 dark Flash created the paradox. He's the one that kicked Barry out of the 1535 01:36:43.159 --> 01:36:45.239 Speed Force into twenty thirteen to begin with. He's like, you like the 1536 01:36:45.319 --> 01:36:49.760 paradox we created? Like, uh, I guess, Like, but how 1537 01:36:49.800 --> 01:36:54.319 did you even get there to start that? Anyway? It was there's also 1538 01:36:54.640 --> 01:36:58.920 I don't like Again, there's a lot about this that I really question. 1539 01:37:00.560 --> 01:37:05.600 And it's funny because we obviously are dealing with the multiverse, but not in 1540 01:37:06.800 --> 01:37:13.079 as as much depth or in as meaningful a way as we probably all kind 1541 01:37:13.119 --> 01:37:15.960 of assumed when before this movie came out and before we knew more about it, 1542 01:37:16.079 --> 01:37:19.000 right, like this idea of I mean again, I guess when you 1543 01:37:19.119 --> 01:37:23.720 when you? Because that's the thing here when you talk flash point, and 1544 01:37:23.840 --> 01:37:27.279 that's clearly the jumping off point as much as they they're knocking down these pillars 1545 01:37:27.359 --> 01:37:30.800 left and right, but that's that's the inception point for this. That's not 1546 01:37:30.960 --> 01:37:35.000 a multiverse story. It's a it's a timeline story, like he changes the 1547 01:37:35.079 --> 01:37:39.840 timeline and then he has to change it back so here that piece of it 1548 01:37:39.960 --> 01:37:43.479 is still there, But then you also have this whole multiverse component, and 1549 01:37:43.520 --> 01:37:45.640 I feel like they should have stuck to one or the other. And honestly, 1550 01:37:45.239 --> 01:37:48.760 even though at this point now I think we all recognize all right, 1551 01:37:48.760 --> 01:37:53.880 I think people might be kind of they might have reached the saturation point with 1552 01:37:54.079 --> 01:37:58.359 all this multiverse stuff, but they probably should have just done a multiverse thing 1553 01:37:58.439 --> 01:38:00.600 where he's bouncing around different world I feel like they would have had more fun, 1554 01:38:00.920 --> 01:38:05.560 It would have been cleaner, and maybe it would have less to pick 1555 01:38:05.640 --> 01:38:11.199 apart. No, I that at least would have been like a fun romp 1556 01:38:11.239 --> 01:38:14.079 through the multiverse right in the same I guess, And I think you know, 1557 01:38:14.119 --> 01:38:16.000 I mentioned Multiverse of Matters earlier. I think people were expecting that, 1558 01:38:16.119 --> 01:38:19.279 especially with a title like Multiverse of Madness, and they didn't quite get that, 1559 01:38:19.319 --> 01:38:23.479 And I think that's where a lot of people's disappointment might be coming from. 1560 01:38:23.680 --> 01:38:26.960 They did some they did very specific multiverse things, but then didn't really 1561 01:38:27.039 --> 01:38:30.479 jump through everything. But yeah, he's running through. He picks up Chris 1562 01:38:30.560 --> 01:38:34.039 O'donald Batman and he gets um Grant Gustin and again, you know, I 1563 01:38:34.079 --> 01:38:36.640 mean, it's just just this Hodge. But if I heard this was a 1564 01:38:36.680 --> 01:38:41.600 celebration of all things DC on screen, and I'm like, that's more like 1565 01:38:41.760 --> 01:38:45.039 that than than what this was. So yeah, I if you had to 1566 01:38:45.079 --> 01:38:46.680 pick one, absolutely, Because I mentioned Star Trek a few times. As 1567 01:38:46.720 --> 01:38:49.439 you may who listen to my podcast on He's Star Trek fan, there's certain 1568 01:38:49.560 --> 01:38:55.279 rules you do. Like one of the most famous episodes of Star Trek Digital 1569 01:38:55.359 --> 01:38:57.880 series is The City on the Edge of Forever. It's when they go back 1570 01:38:57.880 --> 01:39:00.880 in time and Kirk falls in love with a woman. We get saved by 1571 01:39:00.960 --> 01:39:04.359 doctor McCoy. Turns out she was meant to die, and because doctor McCoy 1572 01:39:04.479 --> 01:39:10.439 saved her, then the Earth one on this total slant in the America loss 1573 01:39:10.479 --> 01:39:13.479 World War two, and it's so they had to let her die in order 1574 01:39:13.479 --> 01:39:15.159 to fix it. Then I'm like, Okay, well that's a timeline thing, 1575 01:39:15.479 --> 01:39:19.039 so you gotta you gotta fix that, right, So they had to 1576 01:39:19.119 --> 01:39:21.359 let her die, and it was a great episode and one of the most 1577 01:39:21.560 --> 01:39:25.840 highly regarded episodes of Startregever. And it's a timeline thing. It's like we 1578 01:39:26.479 --> 01:39:29.520 oh, gotta fix this, do that. Okay, we did, We're 1579 01:39:29.560 --> 01:39:33.279 back. Great, that's timeline. Now another famous episode, mirror Mirror spot 1580 01:39:33.319 --> 01:39:35.439 with a goatee. Everybody knows that one is some pop culture, right, 1581 01:39:35.760 --> 01:39:40.319 that's another universe. They don't. They don't go fix it and change in 1582 01:39:40.399 --> 01:39:42.039 things to go back to where they were. They're like, oh, we 1583 01:39:42.119 --> 01:39:45.800 were over here, now we're over there. Those are two very separate things, 1584 01:39:45.840 --> 01:39:47.840 and they can serve their own purposes. But to your point, and 1585 01:39:47.920 --> 01:39:50.760 to two points that we've been probably making this whole conversation, you can't make 1586 01:39:50.800 --> 01:39:53.640 some together like that, or you gotta be careful what you do, or 1587 01:39:53.640 --> 01:39:57.439 you end up with that big bull spaghetti. What's the parmer jant? Just 1588 01:39:57.520 --> 01:40:02.680 a garnish Yeah, that was a any life, um man. So we 1589 01:40:02.760 --> 01:40:05.840 end up with three as a miller's at some point, which, um we 1590 01:40:05.920 --> 01:40:11.520 don't need to go too much on this, but so annoying, like I 1591 01:40:11.600 --> 01:40:14.680 didn't like when as a miller. I certainly didn't like two or three the 1592 01:40:15.199 --> 01:40:21.039 whole like you all that stuff. It's just so and him realizing how annoying 1593 01:40:21.079 --> 01:40:24.880 he was when he was younger doesn't make it okay. Like I guess they 1594 01:40:24.920 --> 01:40:28.039 thought lamp shaded right. Oh, we're gonna address it. They see, 1595 01:40:28.079 --> 01:40:30.039 we do know what you guys don't like. We don't like it either. 1596 01:40:30.239 --> 01:40:32.399 Then why are we spending so much time with him running around naked and doing 1597 01:40:32.439 --> 01:40:38.000 all these inserved things? Like I just I that's such wasted time. Like 1598 01:40:38.319 --> 01:40:41.880 we could have had domas Wayne Batman and Wonder Woman fighting I'll Command for the 1599 01:40:41.920 --> 01:40:45.880 fate of the world, but instead we have two annoying Barry Allen's And it 1600 01:40:46.079 --> 01:40:49.680 was just a miscalculation, I think, and and I guess, I don't 1601 01:40:49.720 --> 01:40:54.640 know like you think they you think that the Flash was some breakout character from 1602 01:40:54.680 --> 01:40:58.159 Justice that everybody loved, and they decided to lean into that and have two 1603 01:40:58.199 --> 01:41:01.000 of them. But but then you know, all real world things aside, 1604 01:41:01.439 --> 01:41:05.960 that's still a bad idea. Yeah, I mean again, especially like we 1605 01:41:06.039 --> 01:41:10.279 say, I think there they ended up with this jumble of of timeline and 1606 01:41:10.439 --> 01:41:15.199 multiverse. But to whatever extent this is a multiverse movie. It's like you 1607 01:41:15.239 --> 01:41:18.439 know, and again, whether it was literally Grant Gustin or or John Wesley 1608 01:41:18.479 --> 01:41:23.279 ship or just some another flash, I mean like something like you there's this 1609 01:41:23.840 --> 01:41:28.239 vast well you can you can pull from. Again, we've only had so 1610 01:41:28.239 --> 01:41:30.199 many people actually play the character. But it's like you even if you're creating 1611 01:41:30.239 --> 01:41:35.439 a new a new version or like something I will say in fairness to the 1612 01:41:35.520 --> 01:41:40.079 studio, and again not that I feel like I need to defend them, 1613 01:41:40.159 --> 01:41:43.880 but but when all of the Ezra Miller stuff was was coming out and there 1614 01:41:43.920 --> 01:41:46.359 were all of these calls to you know, to to reshoot the movie and 1615 01:41:46.439 --> 01:41:50.079 things like that. I mean, especially now seeing it, it's like they're 1616 01:41:50.279 --> 01:41:55.560 they're in every scene and then multiple characters. So it's like that would really 1617 01:41:55.640 --> 01:41:58.600 not have been There's no way around it. There's no way right it. 1618 01:41:58.760 --> 01:42:00.239 And you know that that's a great that's a great point there. That kind 1619 01:42:00.239 --> 01:42:04.600 of rats back around and when we first started with like we were told that 1620 01:42:04.720 --> 01:42:08.760 this movie's greatest common we've ever seen it. We have to we have to 1621 01:42:08.880 --> 01:42:11.359 keep it. We have to see it. Like you guys will understand once 1622 01:42:11.399 --> 01:42:13.840 you see it, why we're so hot on this movie. I'm like, 1623 01:42:13.960 --> 01:42:16.319 I Meanwhile, we just canceled Back Girl over here, So the precedent has 1624 01:42:16.319 --> 01:42:21.560 been set to cancel movies. Guess what they would actually lost less money and 1625 01:42:21.720 --> 01:42:26.119 they canceled this than what they're doing right now. It's insane. Not in 1626 01:42:26.199 --> 01:42:29.359 a million years that I think this is to do as bad financially. I 1627 01:42:29.399 --> 01:42:32.039 think I guess it was gonna make out another around like five hundred million worldwide 1628 01:42:32.159 --> 01:42:35.560 or something like that. It's gonna top out around three hundred million, like 1629 01:42:35.640 --> 01:42:41.159 for real, which is insane, insanity, like these kind of movies just 1630 01:42:41.199 --> 01:42:45.760 supposed to make that on opening weekend. So hindsight is twenty twenty. But 1631 01:42:45.159 --> 01:42:47.720 we all know, we've talked about it in other conversations, and you all 1632 01:42:47.800 --> 01:42:50.560 have the internet, you can look it up. How many red flags did 1633 01:42:50.600 --> 01:42:55.600 they blow through and red lights that just to push this thing through when they 1634 01:42:55.680 --> 01:42:59.359 had every opportunity to stop it. Nick, you're right, reshooting just at 1635 01:42:59.439 --> 01:43:02.560 that point it's too much. It's too much. But they they set a 1636 01:43:02.600 --> 01:43:05.600 president by canceling back Roll, and they should have canceled this one. I'm 1637 01:43:05.640 --> 01:43:09.159 not saying only this one. I'm saying instead, I'm just saying, like 1638 01:43:09.720 --> 01:43:13.279 you guys, clearly okay with canceling movies that start Michael Keaton as Batman. 1639 01:43:13.520 --> 01:43:17.520 Here's another one. No, it's true. Look, and again I know 1640 01:43:18.239 --> 01:43:21.000 we've talked on this, talked about this on our on our various shows. 1641 01:43:21.000 --> 01:43:25.319 But it's just on top of all of this, I think, again, 1642 01:43:25.399 --> 01:43:30.600 I still maintain they just shot themselves in the foot by announcing guns plans before 1643 01:43:30.720 --> 01:43:34.880 these moves another factory and and as much as and again I might sound like 1644 01:43:34.920 --> 01:43:39.800 I'm arguing both ways here, it's like I do really wish he had just 1645 01:43:39.880 --> 01:43:42.840 said this is going to be a clean break, but uh, you know, 1646 01:43:42.920 --> 01:43:45.239 that's that's not what we got. But there was. It's enough of 1647 01:43:45.319 --> 01:43:48.520 a it's enough of a reboot that he's talking about where I think there is 1648 01:43:48.560 --> 01:43:50.800 this sense of like, oh, like a lot of these movies don't matter, 1649 01:43:50.920 --> 01:43:54.359 you know. What I was thinking about though, what I wish they 1650 01:43:54.399 --> 01:43:58.520 would have done. I because especially now that we've seen two movies. Now 1651 01:43:58.560 --> 01:44:00.000 we've seen Fury of the Gods and we've seen in This and both tanked. 1652 01:44:00.039 --> 01:44:02.880 And you know, I feel bad for Blue Beetle because it really does look 1653 01:44:02.920 --> 01:44:06.000 fun and I like the actor, but I can't imagine that's going to like 1654 01:44:06.159 --> 01:44:10.520 light things up, and I Aquaman. You shudder to think what Aquaman is 1655 01:44:10.520 --> 01:44:14.680 going to do after this. But uh, you know, so now that 1656 01:44:14.720 --> 01:44:18.199 we've seen that they've done poorly under the umbrella of hey, like we're we're 1657 01:44:18.319 --> 01:44:20.760 going to be doing some different things where you a new Superman, new Batman, 1658 01:44:21.000 --> 01:44:24.960 but you know, Ezra Miller might come or might come back, and 1659 01:44:25.079 --> 01:44:28.640 Galgado might come back. And it's very wishy washy at this point. I 1660 01:44:28.800 --> 01:44:31.760 wonder if they would have been better huff just saying Okay, this really is 1661 01:44:31.880 --> 01:44:35.840 the end, and what if they had done something where they had post credit 1662 01:44:35.920 --> 01:44:41.720 scenes after each of these four movies that had some kind of tease for the 1663 01:44:41.840 --> 01:44:45.359 gun Verse. Again, not that these not that these movies are connected, 1664 01:44:45.479 --> 01:44:48.000 but it's just like, hey, some kind of like little thread over four 1665 01:44:48.199 --> 01:44:53.119 post credit scenes. I mean again, it'd be tough because like Superman Legacy 1666 01:44:53.239 --> 01:44:58.520 is two years away, but I don't know anything like setting up fifty two 1667 01:44:58.720 --> 01:45:02.600 A yes exactly, something like that where people are like, okay, you 1668 01:45:02.720 --> 01:45:06.880 build this as hey, it's the farewell to the DCU butt a taste of 1669 01:45:06.960 --> 01:45:10.520 what's to come, and you've got like this little tag at the end of 1670 01:45:10.560 --> 01:45:14.079 each of each of these movies that builds towards something. No. I think 1671 01:45:14.119 --> 01:45:18.520 that's what it is. I think that the criticism of uh, oh, 1672 01:45:18.640 --> 01:45:23.800 well, we announced all these movies that are coming out there aren't connect to 1673 01:45:23.800 --> 01:45:26.760 these anymore. So no one cares about these and this is it. I 1674 01:45:27.199 --> 01:45:30.079 understand that, and I agree to it with a certain to a certain point. 1675 01:45:30.159 --> 01:45:31.720 But if if you that's like, that's like saying, hey, this 1676 01:45:31.760 --> 01:45:33.680 is the last season this TV show, it was like, well why should 1677 01:45:33.680 --> 01:45:36.680 I watch it? Then would have wasted time. Like if you if you 1678 01:45:36.760 --> 01:45:39.640 take your approach and say, hey, this is this is the last four, 1679 01:45:39.760 --> 01:45:42.600 like go go see these the wrapping up the big DCU and it's a 1680 01:45:42.600 --> 01:45:45.000 big finale, It's going to be great, right, um, At least 1681 01:45:45.000 --> 01:45:46.279 that would have been an approach. And I think the problem that that I 1682 01:45:46.399 --> 01:45:49.760 haven't you know that, I feel like others have. All James Gonna had 1683 01:45:49.800 --> 01:45:53.840 to say was hey, we have four movies coming out this year. We 1684 01:45:53.960 --> 01:45:56.439 hope you guys enjoy them. These will be the last four of the DCU 1685 01:45:56.560 --> 01:45:59.600 as you know it. And then in twenty twenty five return the page were 1686 01:45:59.640 --> 01:46:01.239 launch with the new Superman Superman Legacy. He's written, directed by me. 1687 01:46:01.520 --> 01:46:03.840 Hope you guys enjoy. We'll see you in a couple of years. Right, 1688 01:46:04.159 --> 01:46:05.760 It's all you had to say, because he had nothing to do with 1689 01:46:05.840 --> 01:46:09.000 these. It's so funny that people like like, oh, James, God, 1690 01:46:09.000 --> 01:46:11.039 there's not he had nothing to do with these movies, you know, 1691 01:46:11.520 --> 01:46:15.079 but he attached himself to them by saying they were so amazing, especially the 1692 01:46:15.159 --> 01:46:17.279 Flash. Obviously like Flash best movie he's seen all year, one of the 1693 01:46:17.359 --> 01:46:21.439 greatest supermovies he's ever seen. I see the guy who's in charge of all 1694 01:46:21.520 --> 01:46:25.600 DC movies moving forward say that about this film, and it does have me 1695 01:46:25.680 --> 01:46:29.920 concerned. I agree. I would have vastly preferred if he said exactly what 1696 01:46:29.960 --> 01:46:31.159 you just proposed. It's like, okay, that's fine, Like, and 1697 01:46:31.199 --> 01:46:34.359 I feel like we would have been more not that he needs to come out 1698 01:46:34.359 --> 01:46:38.119 and apologize for the movie, but like if that's sort of we all know 1699 01:46:38.199 --> 01:46:40.279 what's gone on. If he's sort of like, hey, like you know, 1700 01:46:40.800 --> 01:46:43.239 I hope you enjoy like we did our belts, you know, but 1701 01:46:43.920 --> 01:46:46.159 but we call that one wrong. Guys are bad. That would go That 1702 01:46:46.199 --> 01:46:48.199 would go a long way for me, for sure, some self awareness. 1703 01:46:48.840 --> 01:46:55.199 So it's just I feel like it's even more of an issue because he he 1704 01:46:55.920 --> 01:46:59.560 said nothing about Black Adam. And I know, obviously we had the power 1705 01:46:59.600 --> 01:47:00.600 struggle at the time, and it was right as he was coming in. 1706 01:47:00.720 --> 01:47:06.079 But but even Shazam. I know when he did that presentation, he spoke 1707 01:47:06.399 --> 01:47:12.159 positively about it, but not like he hasn't yet taken the level of ownership 1708 01:47:12.239 --> 01:47:15.000 of something like he did with Flash. And so I feel like that because 1709 01:47:15.000 --> 01:47:16.880 again it's not just like, oh, all these movies are great. It's 1710 01:47:16.920 --> 01:47:19.880 like no, no, like you really went to bat for this one, 1711 01:47:20.760 --> 01:47:24.520 right, and people said, well, what do you spect him to say, 1712 01:47:24.520 --> 01:47:27.920 he's the head of DC Studios. Yeah, of moving forward, this 1713 01:47:28.119 --> 01:47:30.359 movie, this movie was you know, we just went through the production history 1714 01:47:30.399 --> 01:47:34.079 of it and it's should have been released two years ago. The pandemic and 1715 01:47:34.199 --> 01:47:40.159 reshoots and as a Millery's situation that delated to now like this should have been 1716 01:47:40.159 --> 01:47:44.600 the last movie of them all. Yeah, it's you know, the psychology 1717 01:47:44.640 --> 01:47:45.640 of this, that's fine. I took a class in the college. What 1718 01:47:45.800 --> 01:47:49.079 was it, like psychology of advertising or something like that. It was very 1719 01:47:49.159 --> 01:47:54.079 interesting though, because you like, it's such a fine line with this, 1720 01:47:54.239 --> 01:47:59.520 because you want to make people think this is so great right that they can't 1721 01:47:59.600 --> 01:48:02.920 miss it, but they went they so overshot the mark here that it's like 1722 01:48:03.000 --> 01:48:05.560 for I know, for you and you and me in particularly we've talked about 1723 01:48:05.560 --> 01:48:09.359 this it's like, if you just tell people like this is the greatest thing 1724 01:48:09.359 --> 01:48:14.000 they've ever seen, you are setting an unrealistic expectation. And as much as 1725 01:48:14.039 --> 01:48:15.520 I know there are some folks who watch this and genuinely felt it was the 1726 01:48:15.560 --> 01:48:19.039 best superhero movie, that's great. Clearly, now we've gotten more of a 1727 01:48:19.119 --> 01:48:24.199 sense of the audience's reaction and that's that doesn't seem to be the consensus. 1728 01:48:24.760 --> 01:48:28.079 So yeah, it's And the other thing, too, is to your earlier 1729 01:48:28.079 --> 01:48:30.159 point, went back to No Way Home. It's like, you know, 1730 01:48:30.279 --> 01:48:33.560 you you'd set photos of Andrew Garfield and told me mcguarre and to the nighted 1731 01:48:33.600 --> 01:48:36.800 release, they're like, they're not in the movie, but it created enough 1732 01:48:36.840 --> 01:48:42.159 of that mystique where you're like, you're ninety nine you're ninety nine percent sure 1733 01:48:42.199 --> 01:48:44.600 they're in the movie, but it's like you don't know until you see it. 1734 01:48:45.239 --> 01:48:47.800 And here again, between the hype and all those screens and everything they 1735 01:48:47.840 --> 01:48:51.720 gave away, like they just went in the complete opposite direction they and again 1736 01:48:51.800 --> 01:48:55.239 it's easy to say in hindsight, but yeah, maybe they should have made 1737 01:48:55.520 --> 01:48:59.600 more of a mystery. Well, they they wanted it to succeed, so 1738 01:49:00.159 --> 01:49:01.359 because they needed it too, because this is a very expensive movie. I 1739 01:49:01.399 --> 01:49:04.640 mean, I think the budget that the reported budgets like two two hundred twenty 1740 01:49:04.640 --> 01:49:08.800 million, it's it's more than that. Let's be real. But like with 1741 01:49:08.960 --> 01:49:12.319 advertising, let's just let's be generous and say budget and advertising three hundred million. 1742 01:49:12.560 --> 01:49:15.520 It's not even going to make that back. I mean that's like and 1743 01:49:15.800 --> 01:49:18.600 you know, and I think, what's spun on us talking about this all 1744 01:49:18.640 --> 01:49:23.079 the time? Now. I was on your your Patreon show on the day 1745 01:49:23.199 --> 01:49:25.800 that the James Gonna announcement and and you know, we should do that again 1746 01:49:25.840 --> 01:49:28.119 when we have the next announcement. That'd be atably a lot of fun. 1747 01:49:28.279 --> 01:49:30.359 And I said on your show, I'm like, what happens to these don't 1748 01:49:30.399 --> 01:49:34.560 do well? Like well, two down, two to go for the DCU. 1749 01:49:34.640 --> 01:49:38.279 Now, I think Superman Legacy will happen. We've had casting announcements and 1750 01:49:38.359 --> 01:49:41.239 whatnot. Now, of course, we had casting announcements for super Man Lives 1751 01:49:41.239 --> 01:49:45.319 back in ninety eight, so you never know. But this entire slate that 1752 01:49:45.560 --> 01:49:47.960 that we've been presented by James Gunn I think if I were them, but 1753 01:49:48.079 --> 01:49:49.960 who knows how they think, I'd be like, yea, let's just let's 1754 01:49:49.960 --> 01:49:54.119 take it one movie at a time. Guys, maybe we should do that. 1755 01:49:54.319 --> 01:49:58.000 Maybe because this this is great. That to plant your flag and that's 1756 01:49:58.000 --> 01:50:00.279 that's why I'm talking about this. To plant your flag in this and say 1757 01:50:00.319 --> 01:50:04.399 this this is great. Um. That causes me, an audience member, 1758 01:50:04.399 --> 01:50:08.479 to assume I'm going to get more of this from you who loves this, 1759 01:50:08.760 --> 01:50:17.720 So we'll see. So we we've talked a lot about the history of this 1760 01:50:17.800 --> 01:50:23.560 movie. We've talked a lot about like the flashpoint story comparisons. We're actually 1761 01:50:23.560 --> 01:50:25.199 going pretty long. We didn't know how long this is going to be. 1762 01:50:25.720 --> 01:50:29.960 So but we can't. We can't sign off here without talking about the Superman 1763 01:50:30.000 --> 01:50:32.640 in the room. This is erman special after all. So if you have 1764 01:50:32.680 --> 01:50:35.640 a few minutes, Anthony wee can oh. I would have missed this for 1765 01:50:35.720 --> 01:50:40.760 anything. So the Superman element. Let's let's bounce off from this, right. 1766 01:50:40.760 --> 01:50:43.359 We were talking a lot about the Flashpoints story. Into the Flashpoints story 1767 01:50:43.720 --> 01:50:49.159 projects Superman. There's time travel shnanigans have and then you know in the combos 1768 01:50:49.159 --> 01:50:53.119 to be fair, it works past in future as well, right, because 1769 01:50:53.239 --> 01:50:58.800 so you know, him saving his mom ripples backwards in time. Superman Spaceship 1770 01:50:58.880 --> 01:51:01.760 callous spaceship does not crash in small Vild. It's not found by the cancer. 1771 01:51:01.800 --> 01:51:05.680 Crash is a metropolis. It's a big meteor strike is the public nose 1772 01:51:05.720 --> 01:51:09.960 and causes some devastation and stuff. Reminds me a small Ville actually when you 1773 01:51:10.000 --> 01:51:15.119 put it that way. But he's captured by the government presumably kept you know, 1774 01:51:15.119 --> 01:51:18.039 a prisoner by them for you know, for you know, the thirty 1775 01:51:18.119 --> 01:51:23.079 years or however long it's been, right, and so it's a big thing, 1776 01:51:23.159 --> 01:51:25.520 like because the Flash. And Barry's like, we gotta find Superman right 1777 01:51:25.560 --> 01:51:28.319 in the you know, in the in the comic and in this movie, 1778 01:51:28.479 --> 01:51:32.239 we gotta find Superman. He because Odd's here and Clark, Clark's the best 1779 01:51:32.279 --> 01:51:34.880 of us. Clark, Clark's the one, Clark's the only one, the 1780 01:51:34.920 --> 01:51:39.279 only one they can stop Zod. So that they spend this whole movie talking 1781 01:51:39.279 --> 01:51:43.640 about I'm gonna find Superman. And Batman's like, ipe you find Superman and 1782 01:51:43.680 --> 01:51:45.760 then you're on the road and embarrassing, we gotta find Superman. Barry's just 1783 01:51:45.760 --> 01:51:46.920 playing the other Barry like, yeah, Superman came, and you know, 1784 01:51:47.439 --> 01:51:50.000 um, but he created a world. There's no Betty humans, no Betty 1785 01:51:50.039 --> 01:51:53.560 humans, Superman's an alien. But anyway, I just that line annoyed me 1786 01:51:53.560 --> 01:51:58.399 because it was in every Trailerman's not a betty human. So we're cyborg by 1787 01:51:58.399 --> 01:52:02.199 the way, still a football player, and we we understand why Civary's on 1788 01:52:02.239 --> 01:52:08.479 the film. But this movie much like Terminator two. If you look at 1789 01:52:08.560 --> 01:52:11.680 Terminator two right and ruined by the marketing as well, but I get it. 1790 01:52:11.760 --> 01:52:13.960 But like if you look at Terminator two on its own in isolation, 1791 01:52:14.279 --> 01:52:17.039 like your friend there probably experienced it this way. You see that movie, 1792 01:52:17.079 --> 01:52:19.600 you think, arlods Soortioninger is the bad guy again, and you think the 1793 01:52:19.960 --> 01:52:25.279 human quote unquote is Robert Patrick and he's the good guy. There, no 1794 01:52:25.800 --> 01:52:29.159 no. When it comes down to John Connor in that hallway with a pepsig 1795 01:52:29.239 --> 01:52:31.079 machine, you know, in the back of the mall, Arnold's like get 1796 01:52:31.119 --> 01:52:33.479 down, and he shoots the other terminator and that's when you know that he's 1797 01:52:33.520 --> 01:52:38.920 the hero. I'm like, whoa, we're changing things up. The movie 1798 01:52:39.000 --> 01:52:41.359 is constructed to make you think that way. That because he's the one beating 1799 01:52:41.399 --> 01:52:45.560 people up and the two one thousand is a cop anyway, narratively, that's 1800 01:52:45.600 --> 01:52:47.159 how that's created. And of course the marketing, you know, did what 1801 01:52:47.199 --> 01:52:49.319 it did with Arnold being the hero. This time, I get it. 1802 01:52:50.119 --> 01:52:55.680 This film, this film narratively makes you think we're gonna go get Supermad, 1803 01:52:56.399 --> 01:53:00.279 right and in a vacuum that would have been cool. Right man, We're 1804 01:53:00.279 --> 01:53:02.640 gonna get Superman. I can't I can't wait to see the reverse Captain America, 1805 01:53:02.720 --> 01:53:04.960 Chris Evans. They're gonna do on Henry Cavill, right, because we 1806 01:53:05.039 --> 01:53:09.199 haven't seen Herey Cavil the whole time. Right there, you see you saw 1807 01:53:09.279 --> 01:53:13.119 him on a screen once, so stopping a volcano right little day. We 1808 01:53:13.159 --> 01:53:15.399 know this is the same. This is from the studio that brought you Headless 1809 01:53:15.399 --> 01:53:17.399 Sugre Cavil and shadow Henry Cowell. And you get back of Henry caval on 1810 01:53:17.479 --> 01:53:21.439 a TV screen, which again I'll go on record as I have many times. 1811 01:53:21.479 --> 01:53:25.960 I don't mind it in Shazam the first one, but after that it's 1812 01:53:25.960 --> 01:53:30.760 too far. So it's like it builds us anticipation for Superman, right, 1813 01:53:30.800 --> 01:53:33.279 and I'm the natural payoff is you're gonna see Superman. And I'm singing to 1814 01:53:33.359 --> 01:53:35.960 myself, like, man, like it'd be so cool. They really we're 1815 01:53:36.000 --> 01:53:39.039 gonna get Superman. But I'm waiting the whole like an hour and a half. 1816 01:53:39.079 --> 01:53:40.880 I'm waiting. I'm like, well, they're not gonna get Superman because 1817 01:53:40.880 --> 01:53:43.119 he's not in the movie. I know this because they've been promoting the hell 1818 01:53:43.159 --> 01:53:46.199 out of Supergirl, which I don't know if the Ezra Miller real world situations 1819 01:53:46.239 --> 01:53:48.720 have been different, would they have promoted Supergirl this way. Anthony as like 1820 01:53:48.960 --> 01:53:54.600 the star of the film, because they've leaned so heavily in her and Sasha 1821 01:53:54.680 --> 01:54:00.199 Calais, and I obviously understand why. But because of that, like it's 1822 01:54:00.239 --> 01:54:02.039 not a surprise or anything. You know, it's Supergirl, but the fact 1823 01:54:02.079 --> 01:54:05.319 of the characters were like, we're gonna go get Superman, then they don't. 1824 01:54:05.800 --> 01:54:09.640 It really changes your perception of when it happens, I think, and 1825 01:54:09.760 --> 01:54:13.039 that that kind of clouds how I might have taken it otherwise. No, 1826 01:54:13.279 --> 01:54:16.560 I agree totally. And because that's the thing. There's there's all this talk 1827 01:54:16.600 --> 01:54:24.479 of Clark, and so it's it's creating this this setup. And again, 1828 01:54:24.560 --> 01:54:28.119 if it had actually been Clark, or even if it hadn't been Clark who 1829 01:54:28.239 --> 01:54:30.399 was being held but then he showed up later, then you get a really 1830 01:54:30.479 --> 01:54:33.920 cool payoff. Or if you've kept Supergirl a secret, then it's like, 1831 01:54:33.960 --> 01:54:38.560 okay, then it's this twist. You have set up an expectation for Superman 1832 01:54:38.600 --> 01:54:41.079 and you're giving a Supergirl And I was like, okay, but here they 1833 01:54:41.159 --> 01:54:44.640 let all the air out of that balloon by by promoting her and everything. 1834 01:54:44.680 --> 01:54:47.800 And to your question, I mean, yeah, I have to imagine that 1835 01:54:47.880 --> 01:54:51.920 Esra Miller thing shifted things significantly on the Supergirl marketing front. I feel like 1836 01:54:53.119 --> 01:54:57.159 they still would have leaned heavily on Michael Keaton naturally, but yeah, if 1837 01:54:57.199 --> 01:55:02.159 Ezra Miller didn't have all of these headlines and had been able to do interviews 1838 01:55:02.319 --> 01:55:06.920 like like anyone else who's promoting a movie, yeah, then I don't know. 1839 01:55:08.039 --> 01:55:13.680 But I don't know though, because it's like they still this situation obviously 1840 01:55:13.960 --> 01:55:15.920 got a lot more dire for them with but the Ezra Miller of it all, 1841 01:55:15.960 --> 01:55:18.279 But it's like it still wouldn't have been a great situation. I feel 1842 01:55:18.279 --> 01:55:21.279 I don't know that they would have held that back. Honestly, I feel 1843 01:55:21.319 --> 01:55:25.439 like there's a chance, but I don't, like, I don't think there's 1844 01:55:25.479 --> 01:55:30.720 really any feeling at the studio And look, you look at the Wonder Woman 1845 01:55:30.800 --> 01:55:32.880 cameos spoiled in in the commercial for Fury of the Gods, where it's like, 1846 01:55:33.159 --> 01:55:35.800 I don't think there's anyone there at this point right now who's like, 1847 01:55:35.840 --> 01:55:40.359 well, we have to preserve the viewing experience and we want the audience to 1848 01:55:40.399 --> 01:55:42.640 be surprised. Me. I think it's just we anything we can do to 1849 01:55:42.720 --> 01:55:45.760 get people to buy a ticket and show. So I think I still think 1850 01:55:45.760 --> 01:55:47.239 they would have given it away. I don't think they would have leaned as 1851 01:55:47.319 --> 01:55:51.920 heavily on the actress or the character. But I I'm hard pressed to be 1852 01:55:51.960 --> 01:55:54.279 like, no, no, no, they would have. They would have 1853 01:55:54.359 --> 01:55:58.680 preserved that surprise for the audience. I doubt it. What do you think? 1854 01:55:59.439 --> 01:56:00.199 I don't know, Like, and I go to No Way Home, 1855 01:56:00.239 --> 01:56:03.800 and I'm like, you had total McGuire and Andrew Garfield in the film for 1856 01:56:03.880 --> 01:56:09.399 a very significant amount, Like I think I think Andrew Garfield and Total McGuire 1857 01:56:09.560 --> 01:56:14.680 in No Way Home more than Sasha Calaier is in the Flash. I would 1858 01:56:14.720 --> 01:56:15.359 think, so, I mean, I would have to crunch the numbers. 1859 01:56:15.399 --> 01:56:18.520 But no, you know, she and I liked her a lot in this. 1860 01:56:18.640 --> 01:56:20.960 I liked her a supergirl, but yeah, she has you know, 1861 01:56:21.039 --> 01:56:25.119 she's very little to do. Those are my people. Oh he killed the 1862 01:56:25.159 --> 01:56:27.119 general, all right, I'll help you guys like that. You know that 1863 01:56:27.560 --> 01:56:32.720 was that Swanwick he killed my showman hunter? Um no. And then she 1864 01:56:32.840 --> 01:56:36.359 comes back and gets him lightning, Like how does she know to do that? 1865 01:56:36.399 --> 01:56:39.720 I feel like there's some stuff cut or whatever, but you know I 1866 01:56:39.760 --> 01:56:42.119 heard all this stuff, like, look, she's she seems great. She's 1867 01:56:42.159 --> 01:56:44.720 very enthusiastic about it. Right, she's at these screenings, and look, 1868 01:56:44.920 --> 01:56:47.560 this is her first big project, right, And I feel so bad for 1869 01:56:47.640 --> 01:56:51.079 her that, like she got saddled with all this stuff and and she was 1870 01:56:51.159 --> 01:56:54.760 fine. Like I don't have a I liked her, but I don't have 1871 01:56:54.800 --> 01:56:57.000 a strong opinion because she was barely in it. And then she has no 1872 01:56:57.159 --> 01:56:59.840 ending. She dies much like Miake Wickens Batman dies one hundred times. And 1873 01:57:00.279 --> 01:57:02.840 and then because they deleted the ending with Michael Keaton Sasha Kali coming back, 1874 01:57:03.119 --> 01:57:06.640 those characters having to win. At least Keaton's Batman has that end. At 1875 01:57:06.680 --> 01:57:14.800 least they gave him that sad piano music. But she just disappears. Hey, 1876 01:57:14.840 --> 01:57:15.760 I'll give him credit here. I was like, Oh, they're gonna 1877 01:57:15.760 --> 01:57:19.319 have Supergirl kills Odd and no One, and people would think it's fine, 1878 01:57:20.039 --> 01:57:23.560 you don't have to have that argument online for the rest of our lives. 1879 01:57:23.840 --> 01:57:25.720 But they didn't. They like, hey, you know what, they did 1880 01:57:25.840 --> 01:57:29.840 need Superman because she could not defeat him. But I perspected that decision. 1881 01:57:30.560 --> 01:57:34.119 Yeah, that's fine. You know again, I don't the Snyder pieces its 1882 01:57:34.159 --> 01:57:36.560 own, its own thing, and I don't want to get too into that, 1883 01:57:36.960 --> 01:57:45.039 but but I do have feelings about them treading on Man of Steel's ground, 1884 01:57:45.520 --> 01:57:48.199 not like it's sacred ground that can't be touched. But but at the 1885 01:57:48.279 --> 01:57:55.279 same time, given given the path that we all went down, and that 1886 01:57:55.439 --> 01:58:00.640 that Snyder experience with the studio and everything, and how so much of you 1887 01:58:00.680 --> 01:58:02.319 know what it is, so much of what they've done has been a clear 1888 01:58:02.399 --> 01:58:06.760 attempt to pivot away from the Snyder stuff. It's like, nah, you 1889 01:58:06.840 --> 01:58:12.279 don't get to use Man of Steel like this that actually really did bother man. 1890 01:58:12.319 --> 01:58:15.119 It's like we go back to to the you know, to the invasion 1891 01:58:15.159 --> 01:58:16.920 of Metropolis and you know, the whole thing with you know, Barry saving 1892 01:58:16.960 --> 01:58:19.960 that one kid and all. Yea, this is to me the that Man 1893 01:58:20.039 --> 01:58:23.239 member returns Man is steal for you it's like, what are you doing? 1894 01:58:23.319 --> 01:58:25.479 Like you if you don't do it right, It's like, hey, you 1895 01:58:25.560 --> 01:58:28.000 remember Zod? You like Zod? Yeah, and there I did, But 1896 01:58:28.119 --> 01:58:30.479 what is he doing here? I know? I feel yeah, absolutely, 1897 01:58:30.720 --> 01:58:32.600 And that's the thing I think that points to, you know, sadly, 1898 01:58:32.680 --> 01:58:36.399 a failure in this shared universe they've been trying to build. It's like, 1899 01:58:36.439 --> 01:58:41.199 what other I mean, I'm like quickly trying to scancer the movies, like 1900 01:58:41.239 --> 01:58:45.439 what other event could you even? Well, if you did, if you 1901 01:58:45.520 --> 01:58:47.119 did Justice League, you'd have to pick a lad on which version. So 1902 01:58:47.159 --> 01:58:53.239 they don't want to do that. The death of Superman, Doomsday, Yeah, 1903 01:58:53.399 --> 01:58:56.680 I mean, those movies gave us the you know, these big moments, 1904 01:58:57.079 --> 01:58:59.520 but it's just, yeah, there's something about that, and you know, 1905 01:58:59.680 --> 01:59:01.159 we talked about this. I very much like that, you know, 1906 01:59:01.239 --> 01:59:04.720 Michael Shannon asked for Snyder's blessing, you know, before doing this, and 1907 01:59:04.960 --> 01:59:09.039 that's very classy move. But yeah, no, I just that there's that 1908 01:59:09.119 --> 01:59:13.399 piece of it too where it's just like, I don't know, I didn't 1909 01:59:13.439 --> 01:59:15.920 love that they were kind of reopening that. I mean, it's fine, 1910 01:59:15.000 --> 01:59:17.720 it's I'm not offended by it, right, No, I am by a 1911 01:59:17.800 --> 01:59:23.279 certainly understand what you're saying, because I mean, you all this is like, 1912 01:59:23.359 --> 01:59:25.479 well, let's get away from that. But do you remember this, 1913 01:59:25.680 --> 01:59:27.920 right? I mean you can't you can't have both ways. But you can't. 1914 01:59:27.920 --> 01:59:32.000 You can't do a spiritual cousin to Jos's league but didn't go inside Man 1915 01:59:32.119 --> 01:59:35.079 of Steel. But they had this it's a love letter, but Zach, 1916 01:59:35.159 --> 01:59:39.079 it's a love letter to everything, so you can do whatever you want. 1917 01:59:39.119 --> 01:59:41.119 And we're, oh, yeah, we're almost there for that. Oh my 1918 01:59:41.199 --> 01:59:44.079 gosh. But like they had this back to the future thinking of like, 1919 01:59:44.159 --> 01:59:45.840 oh, everybody was back to the future too, where they going to the 1920 01:59:45.880 --> 01:59:48.079 first move round? Like this is not that, y'all. This is not 1921 01:59:48.279 --> 01:59:53.079 that at all. This is because because it'd be like if Marnio Fly wasn't 1922 01:59:53.119 --> 01:59:56.119 in the future too, do you go back to the first one? It 1923 01:59:56.239 --> 02:00:00.600 was weird that they made care of the Codex and not Kell. Oh it 1924 02:00:00.640 --> 02:00:03.279 doesn't makes sense, right, yeah, why would why would Jarrell make care 1925 02:00:03.279 --> 02:00:06.279 of the like this trying to think of comparisons of like in this world, 1926 02:00:06.359 --> 02:00:10.439 right, like okay, with Dark Knight rises, we understand why the Joker's 1927 02:00:10.479 --> 02:00:14.680 not there. Heath Ledger's dead right, it's a tragedy. We understand there 1928 02:00:14.720 --> 02:00:16.279 was talking maybe we'll recast him, but no, you know, no one 1929 02:00:16.399 --> 02:00:19.039 was friends with He's ledger and like we gotta move on. We gotta just 1930 02:00:19.439 --> 02:00:24.479 move on from the Joker, right, we understand it's not possible for the 1931 02:00:24.520 --> 02:00:27.560 Joker to be part of that. For this, we have Henry Kell here, 1932 02:00:27.680 --> 02:00:29.920 like, I am back a Superman. I can't wait to come and 1933 02:00:30.039 --> 02:00:32.920 reprise my role. And then it's like, yeah, but this it's it 1934 02:00:32.960 --> 02:00:35.680 was almost like Henry Kevill had died before this movie came out in Anthony, 1935 02:00:35.880 --> 02:00:40.199 like the way The Superman was treated, you know what I mean, Yeah, 1936 02:00:40.439 --> 02:00:43.920 I mean that's like that's the thing, and I know there's all this 1937 02:00:43.960 --> 02:00:45.840 business bat there were three different endings and he was you know, from Little 1938 02:00:45.840 --> 02:00:48.079 Thing for one of them, but obviously that got cut. But but still 1939 02:00:48.119 --> 02:00:51.039 he was there was it doesn't seem like there was any iteration of this where 1940 02:00:51.079 --> 02:00:56.560 he was really featured artist movie. Yeah, and yeah, it's such an 1941 02:00:56.640 --> 02:01:01.079 odd it's so odd that we have deceased actor and I know we're getting to 1942 02:01:01.119 --> 02:01:04.159 this, but like we have deceased actors cgi you know, you know, 1943 02:01:04.880 --> 02:01:10.960 digitally recreated and yet you have a live actor who you know. Again, 1944 02:01:11.039 --> 02:01:14.760 regardless of people's feelings about the Snyder stuff, people generally seem to like him 1945 02:01:14.920 --> 02:01:18.239 in the role. And it's just it's weird to build so much of the 1946 02:01:18.359 --> 02:01:23.079 movie around the events of Man of Steel, the villain from Man of Steel, 1947 02:01:23.319 --> 02:01:27.039 the cousin of Superman, have all these references to Clark, and he's 1948 02:01:27.079 --> 02:01:30.479 absent. It's just like, why, I don't understand, especially see now 1949 02:01:30.600 --> 02:01:35.000 getting fired ups, like especially knowing how divided this fandom is. It's like, 1950 02:01:35.159 --> 02:01:40.960 why are you just inviting this, Like, just do something different. 1951 02:01:42.159 --> 02:01:45.319 I It's I don't know, it's it's just so baffling to me. But 1952 02:01:45.560 --> 02:01:49.600 it's like his look, Cavil and Gustin and I'll go out throwing ship too, 1953 02:01:49.640 --> 02:01:53.520 because I know how much you love the Nine defen But it's like those 1954 02:01:54.159 --> 02:01:59.159 those those three, I mean, they feel like such glaring omissions that this 1955 02:01:59.439 --> 02:02:02.479 movie, this kind of movie, but this movie itself specifically beg for them, 1956 02:02:03.279 --> 02:02:08.640 and and they're just completely omitted. It's so odd to me. Well, 1957 02:02:09.279 --> 02:02:12.199 Andy Machetti has said that no character was off the table for them to 1958 02:02:12.319 --> 02:02:15.520 use in their multiverse sequence at the end of the film. Which let's leave 1959 02:02:15.560 --> 02:02:17.840 arrived there. Let's let's tack it. You know, I mentioned like it's 1960 02:02:17.880 --> 02:02:20.079 it's as if Henry Cavill had died, well, that would not have stopped 1961 02:02:20.119 --> 02:02:24.640 him from putting him in the movie, because we have CGI, George Reeves, 1962 02:02:25.079 --> 02:02:28.159 CGI, Christopher Reeves, CGI, Helen Slater who's still alive by the 1963 02:02:28.199 --> 02:02:30.199 way, CGI, Nicholas Skates who's still live by the way, CGI, 1964 02:02:30.279 --> 02:02:33.560 Adam West and CGI. We thought it was Teddy Sears, but I guess 1965 02:02:33.600 --> 02:02:39.079 it's just some amalgamation of a black and white looking Jay Garrick. I think 1966 02:02:40.560 --> 02:02:42.439 you might have said this, or you might have posted this, or it 1967 02:02:42.479 --> 02:02:45.279 came out I had to have been someone. They were like, oh, 1968 02:02:45.439 --> 02:02:47.520 we need Jay Garrick and like someone right, and he's talked about this right 1969 02:02:47.600 --> 02:02:51.800 like on someone like put a helmet on some guys. Well, we all 1970 02:02:51.800 --> 02:02:55.439 assumed it was Teddy Sears, like who else would it be? I know, 1971 02:02:55.600 --> 02:02:57.920 we all and then he did an interview a TV line and he was 1972 02:02:57.960 --> 02:03:01.399 like, no, it wasn't me. They thought, oh, wow, 1973 02:03:01.560 --> 02:03:06.359 the fans are gonna love this, like and boy were they wrong. Like, 1974 02:03:06.520 --> 02:03:12.920 I don't understand how they thought this was gonna like like me, Christopher 1975 02:03:12.960 --> 02:03:15.279 Reeve is like the gold standard and for a lot of people as Superman, 1976 02:03:15.479 --> 02:03:19.000 right, how is just just like, hey, here's a PS two version 1977 02:03:19.039 --> 02:03:23.640 of your favorite Superman waving around and doesn't do anything, you know, like 1978 02:03:23.800 --> 02:03:27.800 just looks at the universe anything that just crashes in the Nicolas Cages universe. 1979 02:03:27.880 --> 02:03:31.439 But then when Reverse Flash excuse me, dart Flash dies, they unconverged, 1980 02:03:31.479 --> 02:03:34.520 so I guess they're fine. I don't know how am I? Why am 1981 02:03:34.560 --> 02:03:38.880 I supposed to like that? Like, I don't you know? That's the 1982 02:03:38.960 --> 02:03:43.039 ultimate I know what that is the Leo Nardo DiCaprio mean pointing at the thing, 1983 02:03:43.159 --> 02:03:49.760 right, Yeah, that was I'll try to keep this short, but 1984 02:03:54.359 --> 02:03:57.359 it's one thing to not like a movie or not like something in a movie 1985 02:03:57.399 --> 02:04:00.640 like Fury of the Gods is a good example. I think they just took 1986 02:04:00.680 --> 02:04:02.600 the wrong lessons from the first movie. They overshot the mark, they lost 1987 02:04:02.640 --> 02:04:06.720 sight of the heart of the character, and neglected the human you know, 1988 02:04:06.800 --> 02:04:10.800 the younger side, Billy and all that stuff. Right, But at the 1989 02:04:10.840 --> 02:04:14.199 same time, I wasn't like offended by the movie. I saw where they 1990 02:04:14.239 --> 02:04:16.199 went astray, and it was unfortunate because I really like the first one. 1991 02:04:16.239 --> 02:04:18.840 But it is what it is. But I look at this this there were 1992 02:04:18.840 --> 02:04:24.279 a couple of things in this movie that I was offended by, and I, 1993 02:04:24.880 --> 02:04:27.800 you know, I'll get on with my life. But the baby in 1994 02:04:27.840 --> 02:04:30.720 the microwave at the beginning was one, and and this this was another one. 1995 02:04:31.119 --> 02:04:33.279 You know, for a variety of reasons. But it's just like, 1996 02:04:34.600 --> 02:04:40.680 to me, it just feels like such poor taste to to bring actors who 1997 02:04:40.720 --> 02:04:43.960 have passed back like that. And I talked about this in my episode, 1998 02:04:43.960 --> 02:04:45.760 and that was another listener was like, well, you know, they the 1999 02:04:45.840 --> 02:04:49.399 Reev estate gave their their permission and I think they they said like both like 2000 02:04:49.479 --> 02:04:53.399 the Reeve and Reeves estates. George Reeves, as far as I know it, 2001 02:04:53.479 --> 02:04:55.800 I don't think there is an estate to speak of. So it's a 2002 02:04:55.880 --> 02:04:58.600 very thing that that's a big reason why we haven't seen George Reves in comic 2003 02:04:58.640 --> 02:05:01.239 books or anything since, because it's a very vague. Because I understand it. 2004 02:05:01.279 --> 02:05:05.479 The rights, yes, and with Christopher, even even if I don't 2005 02:05:05.520 --> 02:05:09.399 dispute, I'm sure the family, I'm sure that you know, they did 2006 02:05:09.439 --> 02:05:11.399 sign off on that, but I don't know. To me, And this 2007 02:05:11.520 --> 02:05:14.399 is it's a personal thing. It's a matter of taste and people feel differently. 2008 02:05:14.479 --> 02:05:16.800 But I just feel like it's like so ghoulish to like bring them back, 2009 02:05:17.399 --> 02:05:21.399 especially when to be clear, I'm not saying they shouldn't be represented, 2010 02:05:21.920 --> 02:05:26.039 but you just use clips like there are other ways to represent them. And 2011 02:05:26.119 --> 02:05:30.479 then there are live actors who I'm sure, but you know, poor Brandon 2012 02:05:30.600 --> 02:05:31.520 Rauth. It's like this guy, I'm sure we would like jump at the 2013 02:05:31.600 --> 02:05:38.800 chance, and he's played essentially playing that version of Superman and recently did it 2014 02:05:39.079 --> 02:05:43.159 and was people loved it. So it just feels like, why did you 2015 02:05:43.199 --> 02:05:46.319 feel like this was the only thing you could do. It's it's so strange 2016 02:05:46.439 --> 02:05:50.680 because, I mean, we didn't know what the speed Force is gonna look 2017 02:05:50.680 --> 02:05:55.000 like. We got into this movie and the speed Force looks terrible, but 2018 02:05:55.119 --> 02:05:58.520 you know what, it's supposed to look terrible according to that directory mean, 2019 02:05:58.600 --> 02:06:00.479 that's the thing. Like it's like, oh, yeah, we know it 2020 02:06:00.520 --> 02:06:03.399 looks weird. But here's why. I'm like, y'all, y'all this clearly 2021 02:06:03.439 --> 02:06:06.119 this is supposed to be photo realistic, and I don't know what point they 2022 02:06:06.199 --> 02:06:10.840 decided, you know what, let's just leave it. Um. It's the 2023 02:06:10.960 --> 02:06:15.119 Uncanning Valley to the High Street. We see Henry cavill in there fight the 2024 02:06:15.199 --> 02:06:18.039 Justice League, right, yeah, that's that's our own own facial shot at 2025 02:06:18.079 --> 02:06:20.920 him. It's funny because I either talked or posted about this, and if 2026 02:06:21.239 --> 02:06:23.960 or maybe it was in the episode of My Guest was like, oh, 2027 02:06:24.000 --> 02:06:26.640 like you see him in that thing, and it's like, sure, but 2028 02:06:26.760 --> 02:06:30.479 I don't, like, I don't it's funny. And again the last time 2029 02:06:30.479 --> 02:06:31.720 I'll issue this disclaimer because I want to be a broken record here, but 2030 02:06:31.760 --> 02:06:36.079 again, like for people who watch that Multiverse sequence and you just you loved 2031 02:06:36.119 --> 02:06:41.079 it, that's great, but I don't even like, I can't even count 2032 02:06:41.119 --> 02:06:45.319 those as cameos. I don't know. That's not a cameo. That's that's 2033 02:06:45.359 --> 02:06:48.640 a CGI representation of something like cameo. Was like, oh, and nicool, 2034 02:06:48.680 --> 02:06:51.319 have they brought in Brandon Ralph to fill in the blank? Right? 2035 02:06:51.560 --> 02:06:55.319 That's yeah, Like we didn't know what I guess My point was we didn't 2036 02:06:55.319 --> 02:06:57.399 know what the Speedforce are gonna look like. So I am I thinking like, 2037 02:06:57.399 --> 02:07:00.479 oh, he's gonna be running through and we'll see some stock some altered 2038 02:07:00.520 --> 02:07:01.640 stock footage, much like in the Flash TV show. I know I'm a 2039 02:07:01.680 --> 02:07:03.960 broken wrecker. Now keep talking about the flasht TV show. But when he's 2040 02:07:04.000 --> 02:07:06.800 going through the multiverse, you see, you saw John weston ship, you 2041 02:07:06.840 --> 02:07:12.000 saw super Girl, right, MILSI an oist, you saw Legends Tomorrow, 2042 02:07:12.039 --> 02:07:15.359 Green Arrow, like, you saw different things, right, So like that's 2043 02:07:15.520 --> 02:07:17.520 that's what you could have done. Or I thought, oh, if you're 2044 02:07:17.520 --> 02:07:20.640 gonna recraim through CGI, maybe there's gonna be a big battle, right, 2045 02:07:20.920 --> 02:07:24.279 And they all come through a portal, and then I would understand like, 2046 02:07:24.600 --> 02:07:27.239 oh, well, yeah, of course you gotta have CGI Chris Reef flying 2047 02:07:27.279 --> 02:07:29.640 around over there. But then when they kind of zoom him for the close 2048 02:07:29.720 --> 02:07:32.000 up at stop footage and then and then who knows, right, they're sort 2049 02:07:32.800 --> 02:07:39.520 do something, but they just the bare minimum of like the PS two versions 2050 02:07:39.560 --> 02:07:42.960 of these characters show up, look at each other, and then go away, 2051 02:07:43.399 --> 02:07:45.000 and it's like, why did why do we? Why even do this? 2052 02:07:45.399 --> 02:07:49.800 Why invite this controversy? If you're gonna do this? And part of 2053 02:07:49.840 --> 02:07:53.359 me is like I want to chicker the egg did they? Like? Could 2054 02:07:53.399 --> 02:07:56.000 they not get these CGI versions looking good? So they decided to make the 2055 02:07:56.039 --> 02:08:00.840 whole speed for us look bad. So it's consistent. I don't know, 2056 02:08:01.760 --> 02:08:05.439 but it's um, I did not like that at all. I was face 2057 02:08:05.520 --> 02:08:09.079 pauving during that. I was like, this is what you think I want 2058 02:08:09.119 --> 02:08:11.359 as a fan. You could not be further off. That's my opinion. 2059 02:08:11.520 --> 02:08:16.000 Like you said, if people loved it, I wish I did too, 2060 02:08:16.119 --> 02:08:18.680 But I just that's not what I'm looking for at all. Like like you 2061 02:08:18.800 --> 02:08:20.960 failed on every fancer, you failed him, Like look, you feel just 2062 02:08:22.199 --> 02:08:26.640 freef He's failed on all this. Yeah, and look, I mean not 2063 02:08:26.720 --> 02:08:30.640 to get into but with George Reeves too, and the nature and circumstances of 2064 02:08:30.760 --> 02:08:33.000 his death, it's like, I, you know, I I don't know. 2065 02:08:33.159 --> 02:08:37.319 I just again, I feel it came out the day that he the 2066 02:08:37.479 --> 02:08:41.359 day that he died. Oh did it? Yeah? That was another headliner 2067 02:08:41.399 --> 02:08:43.159 there. It's like woof. You know, I agree. I like the 2068 02:08:43.199 --> 02:08:46.920 way they did it in in the flash, but but also, uh, 2069 02:08:46.119 --> 02:08:48.800 you've probably if you didn't watch the show, you've probably seen the clip by 2070 02:08:48.840 --> 02:08:52.399 this point. But the end of Doom Patrol where Beast Boy has his journey 2071 02:08:52.439 --> 02:08:58.359 through the multiverse, Grant Gustin running through Grant Gustin. He didn't even know 2072 02:08:58.399 --> 02:09:00.760 he was in it, but he was. They you know they use the 2073 02:09:00.800 --> 02:09:03.840 footage and it's like that to me is the ideal way to do this, 2074 02:09:03.960 --> 02:09:07.520 where you're using clips from various projects. But then he would occasionally get pulled 2075 02:09:07.520 --> 02:09:09.239 into the world, right, and then like he went to the Stargirl world 2076 02:09:09.279 --> 02:09:13.840 and the actress will play Stargirl was there? Yeah, that's perfect that Chris 2077 02:09:13.960 --> 02:09:16.279 isn't all the Batman thing I was talking about. Have that happened for two 2078 02:09:16.359 --> 02:09:20.640 minutes? That would have been interesting interesting? Oh and then your imagination can 2079 02:09:20.680 --> 02:09:24.399 take you wherever you want to go with that and instead of like, hey, 2080 02:09:24.439 --> 02:09:28.640 look it's cgi Adam West running around. Did you guys hear the joker 2081 02:09:28.720 --> 02:09:33.479 laughing? Do you like that? Yeah? Yeah, okay, And as 2082 02:09:33.560 --> 02:09:35.560 has I know this has been arguabent. It's but it's like, also, 2083 02:09:35.600 --> 02:09:39.439 too's okay if no hero is Nope, characters off the table and you're just 2084 02:09:39.600 --> 02:09:43.840 going to render them digitally anyway? Why why did you stop there? I 2085 02:09:43.880 --> 02:09:48.319 mean for Linda Carter's Wonder Room. We just didn't have time time. Wait 2086 02:09:48.800 --> 02:09:52.680 are you talking about these? Are? These are thirty seconds each? And 2087 02:09:52.760 --> 02:09:54.760 I'm sure they thought, Pam, they're gonna love this. And when I 2088 02:09:54.800 --> 02:09:56.560 read the reviews talking about it's a celebration of all things DC on film. 2089 02:09:56.600 --> 02:10:01.600 I know this is what they're talking about. Can I disagree? I do 2090 02:10:01.720 --> 02:10:05.439 too. Look the Nick Cage thing that that might break my heart the most 2091 02:10:05.520 --> 02:10:07.079 because I don't know if that was kind of the best one of them. 2092 02:10:07.560 --> 02:10:11.600 I guess relatively. Yeah. I mean, we definitely at least spent the 2093 02:10:11.640 --> 02:10:13.000 most time there and it was the most substantive. But I guess what, 2094 02:10:13.600 --> 02:10:16.760 So what breaks my heart about it is, you know, you I went 2095 02:10:16.800 --> 02:10:18.960 back and forth of not really knowing was he there? Was he not there? 2096 02:10:18.960 --> 02:10:22.319 But then there was you know, uh an interview where they talked about 2097 02:10:22.359 --> 02:10:24.479 like he came in, he was in the costume. It's like, I 2098 02:10:24.560 --> 02:10:28.920 guess they filmed him or scanned him and then they just siege hied him to 2099 02:10:28.000 --> 02:10:31.239 hell because they wanted to make him look like he would have looked in the 2100 02:10:31.359 --> 02:10:35.079 late nineties of Superman Lives had come out, and it's like, Okay, 2101 02:10:35.239 --> 02:10:37.399 I get it, and look at this point, everyone in the Speed Force 2102 02:10:37.520 --> 02:10:41.399 or the multiverse is going to have this look anyway. So it's like whatever, 2103 02:10:41.560 --> 02:10:45.159 But it's like I would have loved to have just seen him just like 2104 02:10:45.319 --> 02:10:48.239 in the suit for real. I don't care that he's older now, Like, 2105 02:10:48.319 --> 02:10:50.159 that's fine. I could you could have just a little little touch up 2106 02:10:50.199 --> 02:10:52.079 on him, a little the aging touch up, and just let him be 2107 02:10:52.079 --> 02:10:54.720 an older version of that Superman. That would have been fine. But I 2108 02:10:54.800 --> 02:10:58.239 guess it was the most interesting because we don't know how that was supposed to 2109 02:10:58.319 --> 02:11:01.680 look. Yes, you know, so that I supposed And as much as 2110 02:11:01.720 --> 02:11:03.800 I've been dunking on it, the idea of seeing christ Reevee Hill and Slater 2111 02:11:03.880 --> 02:11:07.760 together, I like that because that was supposed to be the case yes on 2112 02:11:07.880 --> 02:11:11.319 the Supergirl movie instead of just the poster we got in that film. But 2113 02:11:11.640 --> 02:11:18.520 yeah, yeah, man, like just epic fail across the board as far 2114 02:11:18.520 --> 02:11:24.039 as I'm concerned with that, And uh yeah, that that's that's your Superman, 2115 02:11:24.880 --> 02:11:26.239 you know, like the Superman special. We're talking about the Flash Year 2116 02:11:26.239 --> 02:11:30.159 and then it doesn't even you know, they Cavil film that thing at the 2117 02:11:30.239 --> 02:11:31.760 end of the Galagha dot is like they were showing up their civilian clothes to 2118 02:11:31.840 --> 02:11:37.000 meet up with this middle ground. Like Okay, well we'll keep Michael Keaton, 2119 02:11:37.000 --> 02:11:39.720 but we're gonna add Henry Cabell and Galaghadad and we're gonna do what Black 2120 02:11:39.760 --> 02:11:43.640 Adam versus Superman. We're gonna do Wonder Woman three, And like I would, 2121 02:11:43.239 --> 02:11:46.520 as frustrating as some of these films are, I would one hundred percent 2122 02:11:46.680 --> 02:11:48.520 been on that course at this point just to kind of like okay, because 2123 02:11:48.960 --> 02:11:52.079 I always I go back to the X Men movies and for how far they 2124 02:11:52.159 --> 02:11:56.680 went back and forth, like the qualities all over the map, but they 2125 02:11:56.720 --> 02:12:01.279 stayed the course, and that gave it is for as bad as X Men 2126 02:12:01.319 --> 02:12:03.039 origins Wolverine was, Look, we got Logan, we got Days of Future 2127 02:12:03.079 --> 02:12:07.800 Past, we got X Men first class, right instead of just this is 2128 02:12:07.880 --> 02:12:09.640 reboot it all store about it. And that's what DC has been doing. 2129 02:12:09.720 --> 02:12:13.960 And they've been you know, this is where we are and just go going 2130 02:12:13.000 --> 02:12:16.640 out with a whimper man like that's why. That's why I said. And 2131 02:12:16.640 --> 02:12:18.600 then and then the end, Oh my god, the end, God's sake, 2132 02:12:20.079 --> 02:12:22.840 the end. They decided. And I heard there have been rumors about 2133 02:12:22.840 --> 02:12:26.720 George Cuney forever. Yeah, and they were true. Buddy, he shows 2134 02:12:26.880 --> 02:12:31.039 up and didn't even shave pulled a Harrison Ford from Ris of Skywalker, just 2135 02:12:31.119 --> 02:12:35.119 walked in from wherever else he was doing. And oh, Barry, it's 2136 02:12:35.279 --> 02:12:37.359 me. He's like I did like the who the F is this guy? 2137 02:12:37.479 --> 02:12:39.359 That was? That was? That was? I mean we all felt that 2138 02:12:39.399 --> 02:12:43.319 way, right, But then that gag of it, his toothfalls out, 2139 02:12:43.359 --> 02:12:48.159 and that's the note we in the movie on again just you know, well 2140 02:12:50.000 --> 02:12:52.600 again tone when it comes to these movies, that's its own thing too. 2141 02:12:54.720 --> 02:12:58.319 But yeah, I mean it's it's again like when I say I prefer the 2142 02:12:58.359 --> 02:13:03.640 Snyder stuff, I do. Look, yes, those are more serious movies, 2143 02:13:03.720 --> 02:13:07.560 but I do feel like they are over leam as characterized as like it's 2144 02:13:07.640 --> 02:13:11.199 just like relentlessly grim. I really don't think that's necessarily the case, but 2145 02:13:11.720 --> 02:13:15.760 whatever the whatever, however people feel about it. I yes, I do 2146 02:13:15.920 --> 02:13:18.199 like when these characters are taken seriously, not that there can't be any levity, 2147 02:13:18.680 --> 02:13:22.640 but I do like that, you know, I want to see them 2148 02:13:22.680 --> 02:13:28.479 treated with with some weight and with respect and self respect. Yet and again, 2149 02:13:28.560 --> 02:13:30.800 I feel too, it's like it's the tone throughout. I mean, 2150 02:13:30.800 --> 02:13:33.920 there's so many instances you could point to, but again, whether it's the 2151 02:13:35.239 --> 02:13:37.600 tooth falling out here or in that post credits thing, it's just like the 2152 02:13:37.800 --> 02:13:43.000 notes that you're ending on. You know that that leaves leaves viewers with a 2153 02:13:43.079 --> 02:13:46.079 certain feelings. So it's one thing, Okay, you have some humor and 2154 02:13:46.279 --> 02:13:50.439 whatnot throughout, but when that's kind of what you're leaving us with, I 2155 02:13:50.840 --> 02:13:54.960 don't know. I just I don't personally care for that takeaway. I will 2156 02:13:54.960 --> 02:13:56.720 say my dad he loved when George Clooney show. He's like, just George 2157 02:13:56.760 --> 02:14:01.399 Clooney. I don't know. It's funny because like I prepped him a little 2158 02:14:01.399 --> 02:14:05.279 bit before the movie because I want him to be lost, although he's seen 2159 02:14:05.399 --> 02:14:07.840 some of them, and but he's also sometimes prone to like talking during the 2160 02:14:07.880 --> 02:14:11.319 movie and I wanted to I don't I don't want any of that. Or 2161 02:14:11.439 --> 02:14:15.079 we were also at an Alamo Drafthouse, so you know they're yeah. So 2162 02:14:15.159 --> 02:14:16.159 I was like before it started, I was like, all right, like 2163 02:14:16.199 --> 02:14:18.600 this is just the basic setup and I didn't spoil anything, but I was 2164 02:14:18.640 --> 02:14:22.039 like, you know, it's a multiverse, so there might be times where 2165 02:14:22.079 --> 02:14:24.439 we're seeing people who have been like another project something like that. But yeah, 2166 02:14:24.479 --> 02:14:26.920 like when George Clooney came up like he he thought it was you know, 2167 02:14:28.000 --> 02:14:30.960 he loved it. He the post credits thing with Arthur Fallen Dale. 2168 02:14:31.000 --> 02:14:33.680 He thought that was funny. So it's like it's working for some people. 2169 02:14:33.920 --> 02:14:35.000 Yeah, it's working for some people. And it's like, whether my dad 2170 02:14:35.119 --> 02:14:37.720 or my friend Rich, it's like, I'm glad they enjoyed it, but 2171 02:14:39.840 --> 02:14:43.800 h and I also hate to be whether it's in conversations with them in person 2172 02:14:43.000 --> 02:14:46.800 or or or on this podcast or on my own, it's like, I 2173 02:14:46.920 --> 02:14:50.560 really, I don't I don't like being this in this position pointing out everything 2174 02:14:50.600 --> 02:14:54.279 I dislike. But uh, it's just this was just shoved in our faces 2175 02:14:54.479 --> 02:15:01.399 and you know, and it just oversold to us, so I feel like 2176 02:15:01.520 --> 02:15:03.520 it's it's kind of justified, and uh, yeah, I don't know, 2177 02:15:03.680 --> 02:15:07.840 it's Um, I really did feel strong. I felt I had more of 2178 02:15:07.880 --> 02:15:11.319 a reaction to the movie than I thought I would. Like you were saying 2179 02:15:11.479 --> 02:15:15.159 at the top of this, it's like I my assumption going in was that 2180 02:15:15.399 --> 02:15:18.279 i'd be like, all right, like it's clearly not as good as everybody's 2181 02:15:18.279 --> 02:15:20.840 saying, but I think it's fine. Yeah. I really had a stronger 2182 02:15:22.479 --> 02:15:24.439 reaction to it than I thought I would. Yeah, and then that leads 2183 02:15:24.439 --> 02:15:30.600 to us to have these two and a half hour conversations. No, but 2184 02:15:30.840 --> 02:15:33.159 yeah, of course studios are going to say they're great, they're this, 2185 02:15:33.279 --> 02:15:37.680 they're that, and I thought, you know, yeah, like I said 2186 02:15:37.760 --> 02:15:41.600 many times, you've heard like Lance was like I don't like this movie. 2187 02:15:41.600 --> 02:15:43.600 I don't want it. It's a bad idea. They shouldn't do it. 2188 02:15:43.680 --> 02:15:45.640 I'm like, we're gonna go see this, and I'm gonna have to be 2189 02:15:45.680 --> 02:15:46.640 like, you know, I get why you feel a bit, but look 2190 02:15:46.640 --> 02:15:50.000 at this and look at that. I'm like, no, I didn't. 2191 02:15:50.199 --> 02:15:54.199 There's no need for me to argue with you with these things. So yeah, 2192 02:15:54.199 --> 02:15:56.600 I don't want to sit here and be like, oh man, this 2193 02:15:56.760 --> 02:15:58.479 is bad and that was bad, and this bad and that was bad. 2194 02:15:58.680 --> 02:16:03.199 Like we love The Way Home enough that we started a podcast on my Patrejon 2195 02:16:03.520 --> 02:16:05.119 of like we're like, you know what, we love this so much. 2196 02:16:05.119 --> 02:16:07.239 We're gonna do the MCU because I'm still hyped and they did such a great 2197 02:16:07.319 --> 02:16:09.960 job and like I want to, I'm chasing that high man. We always 2198 02:16:09.960 --> 02:16:13.039 are as fans, and I don't know how I feel about the future of 2199 02:16:13.079 --> 02:16:16.079 DC films moving forward. We'll see their own probation as far as I'm concerned. 2200 02:16:16.079 --> 02:16:18.359 We got a couple more movies and then we got Superman Legacy coming up, 2201 02:16:18.399 --> 02:16:20.680 and I'm of course reading for it to be good. I hope that 2202 02:16:20.800 --> 02:16:22.760 it is. I hope it's enough of a break, you know, I 2203 02:16:22.840 --> 02:16:26.840 guess because it's July twenty twenty five, allegedly, you know, that's the 2204 02:16:26.920 --> 02:16:30.920 official date. So that's a year and a half between Aquaman and Superman Legacy. 2205 02:16:31.800 --> 02:16:33.319 That's too soon, that's I mean, if I'm with them, I 2206 02:16:33.360 --> 02:16:39.079 would shut it down, do a hard reboot. Everything's a clean slate, 2207 02:16:39.399 --> 02:16:41.239 because when you that's the danger. And we talked about this and when we 2208 02:16:41.799 --> 02:16:46.559 announced everything, when you have the people they're already working on this stuff, 2209 02:16:46.920 --> 02:16:48.280 continue to work on it in the rebow, that doesn't that's not how it 2210 02:16:48.319 --> 02:16:52.000 works. Like people are gonna. I don't know. The audiences have rejected 2211 02:16:52.040 --> 02:16:56.079 this clearly, So why are they gonna Why would they go see the Superman 2212 02:16:56.120 --> 02:16:58.719 movie from the same guy who said this was the best movie ever. I 2213 02:16:58.799 --> 02:17:03.479 don't know. Maybe I don't know. I like yourself, I always wish 2214 02:17:03.520 --> 02:17:05.840 for the best, like you want these things to do well. And I 2215 02:17:05.920 --> 02:17:07.520 think one of the reasons we get so fired up about it is that, 2216 02:17:07.879 --> 02:17:11.680 you know, we do care, and we have a lot invested in these 2217 02:17:11.799 --> 02:17:16.799 characters been following them. And also even though I guess it feels like there 2218 02:17:16.000 --> 02:17:20.600 there are all these versions and you know, you have you know, we've 2219 02:17:20.639 --> 02:17:24.399 we've gotten all of these different projects. That that's true, But at the 2220 02:17:24.479 --> 02:17:28.479 same time, it's like there are only so many bites at the Apple, 2221 02:17:28.639 --> 02:17:31.120 especially you know, for a period of time. So it's like it took 2222 02:17:31.399 --> 02:17:35.799 a decade to get a flash movie. Yes, we had the TV show, 2223 02:17:35.799 --> 02:17:37.280 but it's like a decade to get a flash movie. Now after this, 2224 02:17:37.600 --> 02:17:41.360 I mean, I don't know how how soon will we see another flash 2225 02:17:41.440 --> 02:17:45.520 movie? Go go ask your friend and green Lander he'll tell you, yes, 2226 02:17:46.040 --> 02:17:48.799 exactly, you know. So that's the thing. So it's like when 2227 02:17:48.840 --> 02:17:50.959 something comes out like this, and then you know, you kind of consider 2228 02:17:52.000 --> 02:17:54.159 what the you know what the what the long term thing and look, as 2229 02:17:54.159 --> 02:17:58.159 Superman fans, even for us, especially for us, like you can you 2230 02:17:58.200 --> 02:18:01.120 can only feel so secure. I agree. I think Superman legacy will happen. 2231 02:18:01.159 --> 02:18:05.559 But it's like we've seen lengthy hiatuses between Superman movies, so it's not 2232 02:18:05.680 --> 02:18:07.440 like, oh, no matter what, every couple of years, there's going 2233 02:18:07.520 --> 02:18:09.360 to be a Superman movie. No, there might not be, So we 2234 02:18:09.440 --> 02:18:13.079 want to make sure that they get them right so we can see more because 2235 02:18:13.079 --> 02:18:16.479 because we love it, we have our own episodes. We've talked about this 2236 02:18:16.479 --> 02:18:20.159 before and I hope that everyone to enjoy this conversation, agree, disagree, 2237 02:18:20.600 --> 02:18:24.680 fall somewhere in between. Thank you for taking your your time. Hopefully this 2238 02:18:24.840 --> 02:18:30.239 got you through your your work day or how or else you're you're listening to 2239 02:18:30.360 --> 02:18:31.760 this, and uh and always fun talking to you, Anthony. And we 2240 02:18:31.840 --> 02:18:35.840 have some epic long conversations. But if people want to find you and your 2241 02:18:35.879 --> 02:18:39.479 podcast was similarly epically long conversations, where can they find you? I have 2242 02:18:39.559 --> 02:18:41.920 to say, though, I think it's I think it's a combination of the 2243 02:18:41.920 --> 02:18:45.879 two of us, because my episode on The Flash was like an hour and 2244 02:18:46.000 --> 02:18:50.200 forty so, but now I always enjoy talking with the I always appreciate the 2245 02:18:50.239 --> 02:18:54.479 opportunity, so thank you, so yeah. So Digging for Kryptonite a Superman 2246 02:18:54.559 --> 02:19:00.239 fan journey, and my George Reeves Adventures a Superman rewatch podcast called another Exciting 2247 02:19:00.239 --> 02:19:03.239 episode. You can get both of those wherever you get podcasts, or watch 2248 02:19:03.319 --> 02:19:07.760 us on YouTube. And Digging for Kryptonite has social media handles on Facebook, 2249 02:19:07.760 --> 02:19:09.559 Twitter, and Instagram, Twitter in particular, I would say, you know, 2250 02:19:09.600 --> 02:19:15.159 feel free to connect there at Digging four kr pod and we cover Superman 2251 02:19:15.200 --> 02:19:18.719 across time and media, so it's it's really you know a lot of deep 2252 02:19:18.799 --> 02:19:22.440 dives and we cover a lot, and it's been fascinating as a Superman fan 2253 02:19:22.520 --> 02:19:26.000 and to kind of share that with the audience. So I thank you in 2254 02:19:26.000 --> 02:19:28.399 advance for anyone who checks it out. And then yeah, if you know 2255 02:19:28.520 --> 02:19:31.600 clearly you like a Superman rewatch podcast, because he listened, Always hold on 2256 02:19:31.680 --> 02:19:35.239 to Smallville, I know, Adventures a Superman. You know, it's not 2257 02:19:35.479 --> 02:19:39.399 in the conversation as much these days, but it should be. And so 2258 02:19:39.559 --> 02:19:43.120 it's been a lot of fun to go back. And Zack's been on a 2259 02:19:43.200 --> 02:19:46.120 couple, including a very recent one, the Human Bomb, which was a 2260 02:19:46.200 --> 02:19:48.840 ton of fun. So I hope people will check that out too. It's 2261 02:19:48.840 --> 02:19:50.959 been fun to get some of these conversations on microphone. Here about the flash, 2262 02:19:52.000 --> 02:19:54.200 I think we're gonna turn the page. We're gonna do with the DC. 2263 02:19:54.040 --> 02:19:56.920 You should do, turn the page, get back to talking about other 2264 02:19:56.959 --> 02:20:01.079 things. Stay tuned for more Superman stuff coming up, and until next time, 2265 02:20:01.280 --> 02:20:39.559 always hold on a small vine, Always hold on to Smallville. As 2266 02:20:39.600 --> 02:20:43.040 part of the Always Hold on To network of podcasts and brought to you by 2267 02:20:43.159 --> 02:20:48.040 listeners like you, Chris Fuchs, Cavante, Chillis, Darren Kirsht, Jolie 2268 02:20:48.079 --> 02:20:52.639 Deenberg, JJ Hodges, DJ Dwina, Isaiah Goodrich, Corey Moore, Nathan 2269 02:20:52.719 --> 02:20:58.719 Rothatcher, Thomas Navin, Andrew Parker, Adam Sullins, Mark It's Foppin, 2270 02:20:58.000 --> 02:21:03.200 Patricia Carillo, Michael Hartford, Jim Crawford, Alex Ramsay, Meghan Rich, 2271 02:21:03.719 --> 02:21:09.239 Rory Humphrey, Alex Hamilton, Matt Douglas, Shnika James, Nathan McKenzie, 2272 02:21:09.719 --> 02:21:15.879 Jason Skipper, Steve Rogers, a Chief Cheke, Molly Figarella, John Curtio, 2273 02:21:16.239 --> 02:21:20.479 Dyland Antonio, James Lee, Joe Michael, Jason Davis, Patrick Bravo, 2274 02:21:22.000 --> 02:21:28.239 Jacob Stevenhart, Dana Bas, Crystal Dudgeon, Tay Tay, Onyx Merrill, 2275 02:21:28.319 --> 02:21:33.200 Smith, Nick Rhyn Magdoza, Eddie Bissell, Jim Thomas, Clunk, 2276 02:21:33.280 --> 02:21:37.600 Kent, Stephanie Ronsley, John Long, Ruth and Cruise, Nicholas Coso, 2277 02:21:39.120 --> 02:21:43.639 Jared Gibbs, Anthony Anderson, Jess mcgilly, Keith Falls, Rob O'Connor, 2278 02:21:45.159 --> 02:21:50.520 James Hart, Anthony Desiato, Crystal Cross, Jake c, John Sweetzer, 2279 02:21:50.920 --> 02:21:54.239 Travis Kill and krim Kumar. Thank you so much to all these patrons, 2280 02:21:54.639 --> 02:22:00.280 and you two Kimikoman patron. Theyre going to Patreon dot com slash Always Malville 2281 02:22:00.360 --> 02:22:03.280 with one S. Hope to see you there. Always sold On Too Smallville's 2282 02:22:03.280 --> 02:22:07.840 theme music is by Lance Laster and our podcast art is by Tom Gurky. 2283 02:22:07.280 --> 02:22:11.319 You can follow us on Twitter at always Malville with one S. You can 2284 02:22:11.360 --> 02:22:13.239 find us on Facebook at always hold On, Too Smallville, and you can 2285 02:22:13.280 --> 02:22:16.719 send us an email at always Malville at gmail dot com. Once again, 2286 02:22:16.920 --> 02:22:20.159 with one S, thanks for listening