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Reading this book isn't going to give
you like a completely new curriculum, a

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completely different way of teaching English from
start to finish, with all the exercises

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you could ever possibly need at all
levels. But it is going to cause

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you to reconsider the validity of some
of the ways you currently approach teaching English.

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And if you're not a teacher yet, this will hopefully get you moving

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in the right direction. It's meant
to supplement and compliment whatever your experience happens

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to be. Welcome to another Happy
English podcast coming to you from New York

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City. And here's your English teacher, Michael. All right, thank you

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John, and thanks everyone. It's
Michael here from Happy English and I help

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people speak English better. And this
is Happy English Podcast, Episode six ninety

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six. And today I am so
excited because I have a very special guest

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for you. It is my pleasure
today to welcome global educator and author Gregory

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Deal to the podcast today. He's
got a new book out entitled Our Global

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Lingua Franca, An Educator's Guide to
Spreading English Where EFL Doesn't Work, which

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is a book that explores the cultural
and economic importance of spreading English as a

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universal language. Gregory, Welcome to
the Happy English Podcast. Thanks for having

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me here. Yeah, thanks for
joining me. Tell us a little bit

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about yourself, where you're living now
and how you ended up there. Sure.

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Well, I'm originally from San Diego, California. I spent eighteen years

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there and then I kind of became
obsessed with world travel and made it a

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mission to see as much of the
world as I could over about the next

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ten years. So I went to
about fifty countries, oh my god,

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and in several of those I taught
English and got a pretty up close and

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personal look at the education system in
many of these countries. In every continent

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except for Antarctica. Really, I
don't think they have much of an education

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system there. So I think,
except for that, except for the penguins.

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Yes, I'm not sure what they're
learning. Maybe they're learning English there,

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And that's that's kind of what inspired
this book, because I saw things

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that disturbed to me about the way
English was being taught in every country I

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went to, and I thought,
that's really odd, because you might expect

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that maybe in one part of the
world, certain errors in their understanding of

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English or the way they teach English
might proliferate locally, right, you're even

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among a few countries in some part
of Asia, maybe, right. But

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to see the same things happening all
over the world kind of blew my mind,

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Like, how could everyone be doing
this wrong? This isn't rocketdience,

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Like it should be easy enough to
know, for instance, if you're using

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English correctly, if you're teaching it
in an effective way, like if a

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high rate of your students are even
achieving basic conversational fluency in English, or

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they're just memorizing what you tell them
to memorize. And it really just seems

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like almost everyone is doing this wrong. And that's kind of what my book

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set out to explore first, to
understand why this is happening, why it

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matters that we fix it, Why
teaching English is one of the most important

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things we could do for certain types
of people in life to improve their personal

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situation, their economic situation, help
improve their opportunities in life. And basically

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what we can do is teachers to
improve the effectiveness with which we teach English,

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no matter what situation we happen to
be teaching in. You said that

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in all over the world, in
your experience, you've found some similarities in

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not good things that are being taught
or not good methods. Yeah, and

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since the book has come out,
actually I have shown it to many English

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learners and English teachers around the world. I have used it as teaching material

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with some of the students I teach, many of whom are online in countries

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I haven't even been to. But
still, so far everyone has told me,

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yeah, you've perfectly described what it's
like to learn English in our country.

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How did you know? And I
said, well, I just assumed.

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I just generalized based on what I
personally witnessed. I said, well,

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it must be happening everywhere. I
have a large enough sample size now

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to consider this might be a global
problem. And so far no one has

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contradicted me. No one has said, what are you talking about, Gregory,

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We have a great English system here. This isn't at all what it's

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like where we live. So what
are stub of the issues or problems in

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English teaching that you've come up with? Okay, Well, in all the

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countries I've taught in English is usually
a mandatory subject right right, one where

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people might spend up to ten years
in elementary school and secondary school learning English.

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You'd think after ten years of learning
almost anything, you should be at

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least minimally competent edit right, if
not an expert, you right, almost

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anything, right, mathematics, history. And yet the vast majority of the

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people who are subjected to this can
barely have a conversation in English if at

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all. That's not what I would
call being minimally competent in English, And

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I would find minimal competence as conversational
fluency or better. And do you think

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that's because this ten years of learning
English is just for example, the goal

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is to pass a test, or
it's just something we think our students should

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learn. In other words, the
goal is not to be able to have

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a conversation. The goal is something
else. Yes, So there's a huge

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difference between actual practical competence in English
and assessed competence, which is what schools

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are designed, what can we easily
test and demonstrate as having accomplished, Which

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is also why the highest priority in
EFL education tends to be teaching as many

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vocabulary words as possible. Have you
noticed this, Yes? The first thing

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people always care about is how many
words do you know? How many words

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can we get you to memorize and
circle correctly on a test, because that's

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really easy to measure. That's really
easy to say, Look, you're twice

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as good at English now as you
were before because you can now recognize twice

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as many words, But can you
actually use those words effectively in real world

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communication. There's a difference, absolutely, And it seems to me that in

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a lot of places, it seems
that they think about English education as just

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something measurable and to pass the test, and it's a school subject. It's

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like science or math or social studies. You learn it and then the next

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year you learn more, and maybe
you forget what you learned the previous year.

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It doesn't matter. In other words, it's not a language that you

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can actually communicate with or a tool
you can communicate with. It's simply something

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we do in school this year from
ten o'clock until ten fifty in the morning.

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And you're only incentive to learn it
if you're like ninety percent of these

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students, is just to retain the
information long enough to get a passing grade

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and avoid being kicked out of school
or punished by mom and dad. Right,

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that's not incentive to actually learn how
to communicate in a new language.

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And if you think about it,
English is so goshed door and useful,

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it shouldn't be very difficult to find
ways to motivate students almost anywhere to actually

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want to learn how to use the
language. Yeah, and considering the fact

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that we have, you know,
this phenomenon called the Internet and social media,

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which presents tons of opportunities to use
the language. When I thought I'd

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studying Japanese in nineteen ninety, I
had a book and a cassette tape and

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my classmates, who I didn't really
see after school anyway, that was about

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all I had. I didn't have
I couldn't go on Instagram and see people

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teaching Japanese or speaking Japanese. So
yeah, there's plenty of ways you can

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use it these days. Yeah,
in all languages for the reasons you just

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stated, it should be much easy
to learn now because there are so many

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more opportunities for exposure, but English
in particular, because it produces so much

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media and because it is used as
a lingua franca in so many parts of

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the world, you really don't have
to look very hard to find reasons to

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want to learn it or demonstrations of
how people are using it all over the

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world. Right, That really isn't
true with any other language, with the

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exception of other major world languages that
are used as like Russia. Here in

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Eastern Europe where I live in Armenia
currently, there's the local Armenian language that

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is only spoken by three million local
Armenians and maybe others who have moved to

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other parts of the world, but
also every Eastern European post Soviet countries speaks

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a fair deal of Russian too,
so that's like the regional lingua franca.

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If an Armenian wants to talk to
a Ukrainian, both of them will speak

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decent enough Russian that they can communicate. So that's an incentive for Armenians and

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Ukrainians and Georgians and whoever else to
want to learn Russian, which they all

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tend to do without having to take
Russian classes in school because there's just enough

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exposure and there's enough practical reason to
want to learn the language. Nobody has

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to sit there and jewel them with
Russian tests to make sure they're memorizing as

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many of Russian words as possible,
and they're all generally conversationally fluent or better

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in Russian, and so probably they're
not shy about speaking either, right,

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it's the English are And actually it's
funny because I'm trying to learn the Armenian

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language living here, and oftentimes my
neighbors won't know the Armenian word for something

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because they're so used to just using
the Russian word, like a chainsaw.

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We needed to use a chainsaw or
something, and they said, well,

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that's a droujeba And that didn't sound
like an Armenian word to me, and

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they said, no, that's the
Russian word. And I said, okay,

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what's the Armenian word. They didn't
know because they just used the Russian

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word to talk about chainsaws, like
there is a rush an Armenian word.

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I just don't know what it is. And I'm sure somebody in the capitol

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probably could have told me. But
around here, all my neighbors just the

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Russian word. That's really funny to
me. It's like being an American living

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near the border with Mexico and not
knowing the English word for something you're just

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used to calling the Spanish word.
I guess it's just funny to me.

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But my point is that if we
can get all these people to learn Russian,

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very well, without ever having to
force them to sit down and memorize

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it. Why can't we replicate those
same conditions with an even more useful language

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like English that has spoken all around
the world. And I know that it

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is because most of the time that
I was traveling to those fifty countries,

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I was only speaking English and that
was enough to get me around the world

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quite comfortably. There's no other language
in the world you could say that about.

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So how do they learn Russian there? It just organic cultural osmosis exposure.

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I mean, they may study the
grammar of it in the school,

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but most of the people I know
who speak conversational or better Russian never studied

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it. It just everyone here knows
enough Russian because they're exposed to it,

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because it's part of their culture.
So then how do we get people to

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have that same kind of exposure in
England? Well, as I said,

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English produces more information either educational or
entertaining in nature than any other country,

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any other language. I mean,
and there are very easy ways to test

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this. I use an example of
Wikipedia in the book, I say,

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have you ever tried to use a
non English version of Wikipedia? We,

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as English speakers, we think Wikipedia
is like the most vast and complete repository

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of free information available on the Internet. Right, there are six point five

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million Wikipedia articles currently in English,
and they all tend to be long and

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very detailed and full of information that
links to other sites and sources of information

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about whatever it is you're looking up. Try to do the same thing in

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Armenian. There are one twentieth as
many articles, and they tend to be

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a lot smaller, a lot less
complete, a lot less dynamic, and

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they have far fewer sources that they
can link to, because there just aren't

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that many published resources in the Armenian
language that they can link to. So

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if you only speak O Armenian and
you're trying to study virtually anything, what

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are your options if you want to
watch rubies or play video games or listen

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to music and you can always speak
and understand Armenian, how many options do

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you have compared to if you understood
English? Right? Not very many?

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Right? So does that not already
give you an enormous incentive to at least

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learn basic English to have a little
bit of access to this whole world of

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information that's going on around you that
you're currently blind to. So you mentioned

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that like ninety percent of the students
you've come in contact with can't have a

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basic conversation. Do you think that
could be because they don't realize that they

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can use English in that way,
or they're not motivated to use it that

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way for some reason, and like
they don't have the concept right, as

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you said in the book, it's
an international currency, right, So languages

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are currencies of information. So I'm
thinking maybe they don't have that idea,

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like, oh, I can actually
use this language to learn more things and

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to get more knowledge. Yeah.
So I would blame the teachers for failing

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to properly motivate and incentivize the children
to want to learn English, because it

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should be super easy to demonstrate to
them how useful English is. But the

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ones who do get good at English, because of course you could try to

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contradict me and counter argue that well, but lots of people do get good

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at English, Gregory, where are
all these people coming from? English is

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the fastest growing, most used language
in the world. Yeah, okay,

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but those people are the exception actually
not the rule, And the way they

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get good at English typically has nothing
to do with the way that it's taught

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in school. Almost always. Again, in every country I've been, and

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certainly here in Armenia, the people
who can actually have a real conversation with

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you in English will get truly fluent, truly masterful language are not people who

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learned it in school. They're people
who had friends who spoke English, who

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became obsessed with Western media, who
took private tutoring and just had the opportunity

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to be organically exposed to the language
and saw the practical benefits to learning this

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language. Those are the most of
my friends here who speak good English.

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They only speak English with me.
They won't even speak Armenian with me,

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partially because they just really want to
practice their English with a native speaker,

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but also they just they think they
have so many more options when speaking English.

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They feel like English is a much
freer, much more versatile language.

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So I'm inundated with English while living
in Armenia. I almost never have to

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use the Armenian language here. Try
reversing that. Try being an Armenian speaker

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and going to live in America and
surviving only speaking Armenian. That wouldn't get

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you very far, right, So
we can see that it is clearly possible

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for people to see the benefits of
learning English, and it is clearly possible

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for them to naturally acquire it in
the same way they might acquire other major

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languages that they're naturally exposed to.
So the only question in my mind is

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what is preventing our educators from creating
those conditions that lead to successful language acquisition

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with English? Why are we all
following dog bureaucratic instructions that demonstrably do not

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work. Because the success rate of
creating competent English speakers is so small,

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why can't we as individuals say,
what can I change about how I'm teaching

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English, regardless of what kind of
institution I might be working in or if

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I'm working independently, how can I
improve my approach to actually start to see

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my students learning and using English better. That's what the book is all about,

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right. One of the first problems
I bring up in the book is

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how little English is spoken in the
English classroom. You'd think that'd be one

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of the first most obvious things that
when you're learning English, you want to

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be exposed to as much English as
possible, to the extent that you can

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understand it at least, and you
want to be encouraged to use it as

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much as possible, again, to
the extent that you can functionally, and

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instead that doesn't happen. The native
language teacher, for some reason, teaches

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almost exclusively in their native language,
and when they do use English, it's

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often wrong English, not just like
stylistically unconventional, because there's lots of choices

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you could make in English that we
couldn't really call wrong, maybe just odd

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or not what an American would say, maybe right, But there's also things

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that are just objectively wrong too.
They just learn grammar incorrectly, they learn

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pronunciation in correctly, they learn basic
phrases incorrectly, and nobody seems to notice,

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which you probably should notice. If
you've ever seen like a Western movie

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and you notice people are using those
words or those phrases differently, do you

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ever stop to wonder, Wait,
did I learn this wrong? Or is

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that just a different way of speaking
English? Lots of people don't believe in

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me, but maybe even though,
Yeah, the teachers are either not interested

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in improving their English or that's just
their job to teach English from there.

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Yeah, well it's a combination of
yeah, not knowing themselves and not caring

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enough to question the mandates of their
job. They're just following orders, right.

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I've had many conversations with English teachers
here to where I try to tell

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them, actually, that's not the
correct way to say that or do that.

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You know, I'm a native speaker
and I'm also a teacher. Also,

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I'm a professional writer, so I
know a few things about the language.

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I'd be happy to share with you
what I know. And ironically,

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English learners are happy to talk to
me. Usually they really want to hear

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what I have to say, they
really want to practice the English with them.

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But other English teachers feel threatened by
someone like me. They don't want

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to hear, Oh, that's so
nice to you, Gregory, to offer

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to help me perfect my English,
because that's usually one of the hardest things

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to do, to go from being
good at English to being like, you

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know, truly native level fluent.
Right. So to have someone who can

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actually help you do that is a
really valuable thing if that's your goal.

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They don't see it that way at
all. I see it as very threatening.

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They cherish the way they've been taught
to do it. So somebody coming

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along saying, actually, you're speaking
English and correctly and you're teaching it the

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wrong things to your students is really
really threatening to them, right right,

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And they don't have the internal motivation
to want to improve. Obviously, yeah,

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I've had. And then you get
some students who get praised for learning

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it the wrong way, you know, the high grades, high test scores

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that teachers say, a great job, you know, you're doing so well,

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you're an overachiever. And then again
when someone like me comes in and

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says, again, you know,
I'm kind of the expert on English here,

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maybe you should listen to what I
have to say. Let's say,

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well, that's not the way I
learned it in school, all right.

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Well, I don't know how to
tell you nicely that the way you learned

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it in school is wrong. It's
just no easy way to say that.

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You just have to be willing to
consider the possibility that maybe you didn't learn

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it the best possible way, and
there's stuff you don't know. So is

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there hope? Is there a way
out of this? Well? I wouldn't

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have written the book if I didn't
think there was some hope, right,

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It'd be a useless endeavor. I
think what's most amazing is that English continues

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to spread and grow as a functional
world language in spite of the horrible education

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and conditions we have for it,
which must mean that there's enough natural incentive

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and ability to be natural exposed to
it and acquire it happening outside of the

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existing education systems to me right,
and I think if we can get enough

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teachers to see that, it is
possible to get de monstrallly better results by

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changing the way you teach, which
also would probably reflect well on them economically,

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because you know, you can probably
charge more money and have a lot

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more students if you could start saying
I teach differently than all the bad English

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teachers you've had throughout your life.
You'll learn more with me faster, and

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yeah, I charge a bit more
money for it. That's the approach I've

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taken now. When I still do
like online teaching or local here, my

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students generally don't care about my credentials
at all. I don't even have a

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college degree. I am tefel certified, but that's kind of irrelevant to them.

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The way I teach, I basically
just say hi, I'm Gregory.

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Here's the experience I've had teaching.
Here's what I see is wrong with it.

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I'm going to guess you've had really
bad experiences trying to learn English?

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Am I right? If so,
why don't you try this way? This

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is how I approach English teaching,
and it gets a really good response from

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people. Every student I have essentially
says like you finally address the problems that

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I've had with everyone I've tried to
learn English from that kept me perpetually trapped

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at this low level of English.
So again, I'm not saying this to

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toot my own horn. I'm saying
it's indicative of there being a global problem

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in the way we teach English that
it seems relatively few teachers have caught on

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to. You know this, reading
this book isn't going to give you like

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00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:32,880
a completely new curriculum, a completely
different way of teaching English from start to

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finish, with all the exercises you
could ever possibly need at all levels.

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But it is going to cause you
to reconsider the validity of some of the

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ways you currently approach teaching English,
and if you're not a teacher yet,

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this will hopefully, you know,
get you moving in the right direction.

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It's meant to supplement and complement whatever
your experience happens to be. And this

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is made additionally complicated by the fact
that conditions are different everywhere in the world.

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There are going to be different errors
that pop up in different places,

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different ways of pronouncing things or thinking
about grammar, depending on whatever the native

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language you're coming from is. And
so it's really up to the individual teacher

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to tailor and address those problems as
they encounter them with whatever situation they happen

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to be in. My book is
just a generalized guide of principles that you

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should keep in mind as you're doing
this. And what are one or two

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principles that we should keep in mind? Okay, Well, so the way

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I tend to teach now is mostly
in small groups, and it's entirely based

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around things people actually want to talk
about, which which is easier to do

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when you're at the intermediate level or
above right, working with very very beginners.

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Obviously you have to start somewhere with
basic phonics and words and very simple

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grammar. But once you're at the
point where they can start to organically express

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themselves a little bit and they have
reasons to want to say new things in

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English, I see my job as
like an overseer of guiding their ability to

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express themselves, and so I prompt. Yeah, I'm a facilitator. I

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don't command them now say this,
now say this, now do this?

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Okay eight out of ten, you
know, but rather just to correct them

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as they make mistakes, which is
very common even up to the advanced levels,

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mostly because you have these fossilized errors
that pop up over and over again,

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the things that you've been learning wrong
for twenty years that even if you

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now believe me that you've been saying
it wrong all this time, it's really

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hard to kick that habit because you're
just so used to saying it the wrong

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way. Right. So part of
my job is really just correcting errors as

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soon as I hear them. Just
you have to not be afraid to be

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rude a little bit. You have
to not be afraid to interrupt someone in

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the middle of a sentence as soon
as they conjugate something incorrectly, or you

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say the word wrong, you say, wait, nope, no, it's

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like this. Remember remember I told
you this before, Say it like this,

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Okay, continue, you know,
And part of it is prompting them

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with the types of questions and discussions
that they otherwise wouldn't have had the opportunity

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to be exposed to an English which
again is going to be different for each

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person in each situation you're in.
But the people who've gotten pretty good at

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English are used to just hearing the
same kinds of conversations over and over again,

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right, So they can say a
certain limited range of things very well,

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very confidently. But then if you
ask them a question they aren't prepared

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for, or on a subject they've
never had to talk about in English before,

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they kind of freeze because they don't
know. Maybe I know some other

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words they need for this, but
I've never had to construct a sentence like

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this before. So that's what we're
trying to do here. We're trying to

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gradually branch out from that very basic
level of English competence to ever more elaborate,

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complex ideas, all spontaneously, of
course, right right. It's great

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if you can first understand me when
I'm talking about these things in English to

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you, But can you spontaneously construct
a sentence no one has ever prepped you

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with before that you haven't had the
opportunity to translate back into your native language.

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You just have to start organically thinking
in the language as quickly as possible.

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And afraid to make mistakes. And
that kind of prompting the students and

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giving them those topics does get them
to more organically discuss those topics, or

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at least try to discuss those topics. Yes, as long as it's something

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they actually want to expreiss, something
they're invested in emotionally. Otherwise, what

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reason do you have to to try
to say things that are initially difficult for

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you? Right? Right? Which
means I have to actually get to know

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my students and talk to them and
say, what's important to you? What

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do you want to discuss? You
know? So I say, okay,

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let's talk about these things in English. Share your perspective, your opinion,

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your emotions. How does this make
you feel? You know? Great?

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Like? That's the kind of thing
that once you get them going, once

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you get them comfortable enough using the
language to talk about these things, they

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just want to keep talking more about
it, right, And then that results

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in building their fluency and building their
communication skills. Yeah, but if your

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students want to talk about video games
or sports rather pet cat or whatever,

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again, the subject is mostly irrelevant. Matters is that they're emotionally invested in

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it, and it's and it's enhancing
their ability to communicate in English. It

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can't be something that's already easy for
them, right, right, that makes

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a lot of sense, right,
and that naturally easily branches into other topics

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that we haven't even directly discussed.
It just changes the way they think.

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Your ability to communicate is a product
of your ability to think. Could you

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00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:25,079
say that again? Your ability to
communicate is a product of your ability to

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think, and in this case we
mean thinking in English as much as possible,

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not thinking in your native language and
translating to English, which always creates

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this kind of clunky, awkward,
like a slow web page loading kind of

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00:26:37,799 --> 00:26:41,160
effect, where you know they'll say
two or three words, well, I

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think Armenia should talk more about the
political situation with You know, it's obvious

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that you know they want to say
something, but they're still kind of internally

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00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:56,480
translating really quickly, and that's why
you're getting that stilted effect. It's it's

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much different when you can see that
they're organically thinking and co daniously expressing in

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00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:06,279
English. Gotcha, So we're kind
of out of time, But where can

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00:27:06,319 --> 00:27:08,720
everybody find your book? Again?
The name of the title of the book

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00:27:08,799 --> 00:27:15,519
is Our Global Lingua Franca, an
Educator's Guide to Spreading English where EFL doesn't

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00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:21,319
work. I think anyone who's trying
to teach a second language needs this book,

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00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:26,759
that's for sure. So where can
where can my listeners find your book?

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00:27:26,759 --> 00:27:29,799
And where can we find you online
if they want to? Our Global

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00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:33,960
Lingua Franca is on Amazon and other
major book retailers like Barnes and Noble.

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00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:41,079
It's even available as an audiobook if
you prefer that. And if you want

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00:27:41,079 --> 00:27:45,039
to learn more about me, go
to my website. Just my name Gregoryedeal

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00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:51,240
dot net. Deal is spelled d
I e h L. Or hit me

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00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:55,880
up on Facebook. That sounds great. And if you go to my website,

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00:27:55,920 --> 00:28:00,000
my Happy English dot com, look
for podcast episode say ninety six,

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00:28:00,519 --> 00:28:07,000
and you'll find links to Gregory's book
and also to his website right there below

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00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:11,680
this podcast. All right, Gregory, thank you so much for coming on

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00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:15,759
the podcast today. Thanks for having
me, Buch sharing your ideas. I

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00:28:15,799 --> 00:28:22,119
do think that the English learning world, in the English teaching world, needs

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00:28:22,759 --> 00:28:30,279
kind of a facelift into the twenty
first century from what it is. So

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00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:36,039
hopefully we can take these ideas that
you've presented today and have our students speaking

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00:28:36,599 --> 00:28:42,720
better and more fluently with them.
And what a fascinating new world that will

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00:28:42,759 --> 00:28:48,200
be if one day we do have
a truly shared global language that virtually everyone

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00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:52,000
speaks. Right, right, sounds
awesome? All right, my friend,

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00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:56,039
thanks for coming on the podcast today
and have a super day. Thanks.

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00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:59,559
Thanks, all right, and there
you have it again. If you want

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00:28:59,599 --> 00:29:03,400
to find out more about Gregory,
just visit my Happy English dot com check

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00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:10,000
out podcast episode six ninety six and
you can see all of those links there.

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00:29:10,799 --> 00:29:15,640
And remember, learning another language is
not easy, but it's not impossible,

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00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:19,960
and I'm here to help you on
your journey. This podcast is brought

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00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:26,440
to you by Happy English. Please
visit Myhappy English dot com. Show your

398
00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:44,759
support for Happy English by leaving us
a review. Get English, Get Happy, Happy English