1 00:00:01,520 --> 00:00:06,080 This is London Calling. London Calling, pretended to be a corpse is the 2 00:00:06,120 --> 00:00:10,560 most difficult pose of all. According to practitioners, lying on one's back, 3 00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:16,440 perfectly relaxed with an empty mind is, they say, virtually an unattainable goal. 4 00:00:16,719 --> 00:00:20,079 Personally, I find the corpse pose the easiest of the lot. I 5 00:00:20,199 --> 00:00:24,359 have an innate talent for lying down. The banal content of my mind is 6 00:00:24,399 --> 00:00:35,200 easy to dismiss, and I'm looking forward to die. Welcome to London Calling 7 00:00:35,280 --> 00:00:39,640 with me, James Dunn Pole and my very good friend mister Toby Young. 8 00:00:40,359 --> 00:00:46,759 How's your week been well? James, Me and Nick Dixon and Will Jones 9 00:00:47,359 --> 00:00:54,799 had our first ever live podcast recording on Saturday at the Emmanuel Center. Unlike 10 00:00:54,920 --> 00:00:59,359 you, we did not sell out the nine hundred sea, but we did 11 00:00:59,359 --> 00:01:03,680 sell out the two hundred and fifty seater and it went pretty well. I 12 00:01:03,719 --> 00:01:11,359 think the audience seemed happy, and we had a kind of we were selling 13 00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:15,959 not just general admission tickets, but a hundred people bought VIP drinks tickets, 14 00:01:15,959 --> 00:01:19,359 and that meant they went to this bar with us afterwards, and we all 15 00:01:19,359 --> 00:01:23,359 had a drink together till about midnight. But yeah, I know that the 16 00:01:23,439 --> 00:01:29,519 people seemed pretty content. Quite a few selfie requests, you know, got 17 00:01:29,519 --> 00:01:33,599 a lot of laughs. And Nick Dixon, who's you know, a professional 18 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:38,040 stand up comedian, was very funny. At one point he did an impression 19 00:01:38,079 --> 00:01:41,640 of Jordan Peterson, which brought the house down to He left the stage and 20 00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:46,120 came back on as doctor Jordan Peterson, wearing a blonde wig and a shirt 21 00:01:46,159 --> 00:01:52,000 and tie and a jacket and answered questions as as doctor Peterson, it's Jordan 22 00:01:52,079 --> 00:01:55,920 Peterson blonde. Well, he's blonder than Nick. He was a sort of 23 00:01:56,000 --> 00:02:01,239 sandy haired wig. Yeah, okay, he's got lightish brown hair. Anyway, 24 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:07,159 he was. Nick's impression of Jordan Peterson is just supernaturally good. I 25 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:10,680 mean, if you don't concentrate, you would think, if you don't listen 26 00:02:10,759 --> 00:02:14,000 carefully to what he's saying, you would think it was just you were just 27 00:02:14,039 --> 00:02:17,560 listening to Jordan Peterson. People say that of my of my Jimmy Savile impersonation, 28 00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:22,360 they say it's like having the Great Man in their presence. By the 29 00:02:22,360 --> 00:02:25,280 way, is it true that there were Apparently, according to report I read 30 00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:30,800 on the Daily Skeptic, there was some Team James people there. Despite it 31 00:02:30,840 --> 00:02:34,280 being a very much Team Toby. Event, even there, you could not 32 00:02:34,439 --> 00:02:38,080 escape the influence of Team James. It's true James. So Nick Nick Nicks 33 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:43,159 kind of. Nick did this kind of warm up routine before I came on 34 00:02:43,199 --> 00:02:46,439 stage, and one of the questions he asked the audience was, you know, 35 00:02:46,479 --> 00:02:49,000 hands up if your Team James, hands out, if your Team Toby, 36 00:02:49,039 --> 00:02:52,240 hands up, if your team Nick. And yet some people did put 37 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:54,560 their hands up, and when he said, you know, who's Team James, 38 00:02:55,159 --> 00:02:59,159 and I think now often would have been if if the Team James even 39 00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:00,719 there that number, but the Team Toby, I mean that. Yeah, 40 00:03:00,719 --> 00:03:04,319 I don't think you did out number. It was. It seemed quite close, 41 00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:06,800 I have to say, but I don't think. I don't think Team 42 00:03:06,879 --> 00:03:08,680 James out. Now. That's very generous of you to admit that, So 43 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:14,599 yeah, I admire honest. We then had we had a Q and A 44 00:03:14,599 --> 00:03:20,439 at the end, and the first question was from a woman named Jess who 45 00:03:20,479 --> 00:03:23,719 listens to both the Weekly Skeptic and London Calling, and she said, you 46 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:27,520 know, how much longer do you think you can keep London Calling going? 47 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:32,800 You know, quite often you sound quite irritated with each other, and it 48 00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:38,479 can be the exchanges can be quite bad tempered. Sometimes you're talking past each 49 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:42,199 other. That doesn't seem to be as a conversation, as a as an 50 00:03:42,199 --> 00:03:46,280 ongoing discussion cock up the conspiracy. It doesn't seem to be progressing. You 51 00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:52,159 each seem to be in your respective entrenched positions and neither of you is budging. 52 00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:55,560 So is there any point? And I said, well, I referred 53 00:03:55,560 --> 00:04:02,240 it for that piece in the National Review and said that that this issue is 54 00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:06,120 the nightmare we've all been put through over the past three years and the ongoing 55 00:04:06,319 --> 00:04:11,960 scandal of the vaccine harms. Is it all cock up or is it a 56 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:16,680 conspiracy? That is an issue that is dividing friendship groups, even marriages all 57 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:20,920 over the world, But it's not a discussion which gets any kind of public 58 00:04:20,959 --> 00:04:27,720 airing in the mainstream media. So I think it's important that we should continue 59 00:04:27,720 --> 00:04:31,639 to have that conversation and model how it's possible to disagree about that and about 60 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:35,199 related issues like do we have to tear everything down and start again or is 61 00:04:35,199 --> 00:04:42,480 the system salvageable. Important to model if we can how to disagree about that 62 00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:48,439 fundamental issue without falling out, because it's a way for people who are at 63 00:04:48,519 --> 00:04:57,120 risk of falling out even with their partners, to see how they can continue 64 00:04:57,120 --> 00:05:00,399 to get along even if they fundamentally disagree about it. And people afterwards at 65 00:05:00,399 --> 00:05:04,600 the VIP party said, yeah, I thought that was a really good answer. 66 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:08,399 And one couple even came up to me James and said, this is 67 00:05:08,439 --> 00:05:12,480 the thing we disagree about and argue about all the time. And he pointed 68 00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:15,680 to his wife and said she's team James said he was team Toby, and 69 00:05:15,759 --> 00:05:20,920 it's usually the wife and the husbands. I think it's that women have been 70 00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:27,839 shown that who's shown themselves to have more balls than men on this issue generally? 71 00:05:27,879 --> 00:05:30,879 I mean not always. Um, I mean, look, I'm not 72 00:05:30,959 --> 00:05:34,920 ruling out a violent break up at some stage, but I agree. I 73 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:40,360 think we do provide a sort of public service which sort of like a like 74 00:05:40,399 --> 00:05:45,480 a sort of actured out therapy session for all the people, particularly couples I 75 00:05:45,519 --> 00:05:48,560 think, who are going going through this this horrible because it's really annoying. 76 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:56,160 Isn't it that you might you might marry somebody and said, I see it 77 00:05:56,199 --> 00:06:00,560 from my wife's perspective that you marry somebody who believed and all the kind of 78 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:04,560 what I would now consider unutterable normy shite, you know. I mean, 79 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:10,920 I used to believe in the British Empire. I actually I was actually pro 80 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:16,319 the Iraq War because I thought it was our duty to bring democracy to YadA, 81 00:06:16,360 --> 00:06:19,560 YadA, yadda and so on. I used to I used to enjoy 82 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:25,920 war movies and all these things which I no longer believe in at all. 83 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:32,120 And yet sort of that was the person my wife married, and she probably 84 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:39,480 feels slightly cheated that she's now got this completely different bloke living with her. 85 00:06:39,759 --> 00:06:43,920 At the same time, I as a somebody who's gone down the rabbit hole 86 00:06:43,959 --> 00:06:47,879 and seeing the world for what it is, I find it almost incomprehensible. 87 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:53,360 Now at this late stage of the get of the game, well, we 88 00:06:53,439 --> 00:06:58,519 really are on the verge of losing everything to the Satanic elite which runs the 89 00:06:58,519 --> 00:07:02,720 world and always has done that. At this late stage where they're not even 90 00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:06,920 bothering to cover their tracks anymore than they're not even bothering to pretend they're not 91 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:12,519 doing what they're doing. I do find the psychopathology of normals, I mean 92 00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:17,199 that the wilful self delusion just bizarre beyond measure. I can't every week, 93 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:20,199 I just I just look at you terms, and I think, how continue. 94 00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:24,680 I mean, look, you went to I know, it's not necessarily 95 00:07:24,879 --> 00:07:28,319 meaningful of anything. You went to Cambridge, you went to Oxford, and 96 00:07:28,319 --> 00:07:31,759 you went to Yale. Was it Harvard? Harvard? Yeah? So you 97 00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:35,720 okay? So I mean they're all establishment normally training grounds. Really but nevertheless, 98 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:41,600 you're supposed to be bright, and yet you can't see the most obvious 99 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:45,680 scam on every level in the history of the world, which is now being 100 00:07:45,720 --> 00:07:49,519 played out before us so obviously that it will take a blind matter not to 101 00:07:49,560 --> 00:07:54,519 see it. I don't get it. One Cabriat to what you've just said. 102 00:07:55,720 --> 00:08:00,279 You were you were implying that the things you used to believe in should 103 00:08:00,319 --> 00:08:03,160 probably quite similar to the things I believe in now. Like yeah, I 104 00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:11,160 supported the Iraq War and thought that, you know, Saddam Hussein was a 105 00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:16,160 tyrant who committed jet side and we did have a sort of moral obligation to 106 00:08:16,199 --> 00:08:20,800 depose him if we could, just as we we did Hitler. Um, 107 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:26,439 not quite as bad as Hitler, but but but but believing, you know, 108 00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:35,399 believing in that cause neoliberalism, being a patriot, thinking that the British 109 00:08:35,399 --> 00:08:39,600 Empire was on balance a good thing, a force for good in the world 110 00:08:39,799 --> 00:08:46,120 historically, and also enjoying war films like Zulu. Those aren't any longer really 111 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:50,159 normal positions though. All those things are pretty much outside the Overton window. 112 00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:52,639 I know we've disagreed about that in the part. I think you're further outside 113 00:08:52,679 --> 00:08:56,279 the Overton window. But those aren't normal positions. Those are now, you 114 00:08:56,279 --> 00:09:01,240 know, they are quite typical for for men, men of a certain age, 115 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:07,399 but I think they feel as outcast in their own way as you do, 116 00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:09,440 holding the views you do. No, that's that's a slightly different argument. 117 00:09:09,519 --> 00:09:13,519 I think that you're you're redefining normy to mean what you think it means, 118 00:09:13,519 --> 00:09:18,000 and it doesn't that it's not It's not whether or not you're inside or 119 00:09:18,039 --> 00:09:20,559 outside the Overton window. I mean, I think I think a lot of 120 00:09:20,639 --> 00:09:24,960 a lot of Look, you and I we were both normalis we both We 121 00:09:26,039 --> 00:09:30,799 both used to have discussions about about things, some of which were inside the 122 00:09:30,799 --> 00:09:33,000 Overson window and some of which were outside. But it doesn't mean that when 123 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:37,720 we were championing the outside causes, we were therefore going down the rabbit hole. 124 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:43,039 I'm talking about a completely completely different outlook. Okay, So you mentioned 125 00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:48,039 Zulu for example, Um, if if you are a normy, regardless of 126 00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:52,600 whether you are a sort of a blimpish old school reaction we like like you 127 00:09:52,679 --> 00:09:56,080 and I were, or whether you're a kind of woke, woke person, 128 00:09:56,679 --> 00:10:05,360 the Zulu can be appreciated as a war film. Once you're down the rabbit 129 00:10:05,399 --> 00:10:09,600 hole, it's a separate thing. You start realizing that the entirety of the 130 00:10:09,639 --> 00:10:16,159 British Empire was a construct that Cecil Rhodes, for example, was was in 131 00:10:16,399 --> 00:10:20,840 in Cahots with the Milner Group, which was responsible for for the First World 132 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:28,639 War. That Cecil Rhodes was was involved in extremely dodgy staff like going around 133 00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:35,320 the world sort of collecting collecting allegedly or trying to collect viruses in order to 134 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:39,159 to create sort of BioWeb. I mean, there's all kinds of stuff that 135 00:10:39,159 --> 00:10:45,320 one learns about the British Empire and the people behind it that it completely at 136 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:50,039 odds with the say, the Nigel Bigger view of history, which is and 137 00:10:50,799 --> 00:10:54,159 Toby Young view of history, which is on balance, it was a jolly 138 00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:58,519 good thing. I'm thinking about stuff like like the East India Company. I'm 139 00:10:58,519 --> 00:11:01,159 thinking about the people who really benefited from the British Empire. It was not 140 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:05,120 the British people, obviously, it wasn't the countries that were being colonized. 141 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:09,159 You know. Okay, maybe we gave them railways, maybe we gave them, 142 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:16,879 you know, a bureaucracy of functioning bureaucracy. But actually what we were 143 00:11:16,879 --> 00:11:20,720 doing the British Empire is what the Americans are doing to the world now, 144 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:24,960 which is basically their their pillaging and raping the rest of the world, and 145 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:28,519 they're getting away with murder. And the people who benefit from this are a 146 00:11:28,559 --> 00:11:33,679 tiny, tiny, narrow, evil predator class and they're the same ones that 147 00:11:33,679 --> 00:11:37,120 they've always been with us. So that's why I can't look at Zulu now. 148 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:41,120 I can't applaud. Obviously, I still feel for the Red Coats holding 149 00:11:41,279 --> 00:11:45,480 routs drift. That's great. I like them because they didn't that you know, 150 00:11:45,519 --> 00:11:48,240 they were just servants of their masters, you know, as you are 151 00:11:48,279 --> 00:11:54,200 when you join the army. But I can't look at that film and separate 152 00:11:54,240 --> 00:12:00,679 it from the Imperial project and the people behind the Imperial Yet who were just 153 00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:07,000 basically evil. Right, Well, I think maybe maybe the maybe we're all 154 00:12:07,039 --> 00:12:13,440 we're disagreeing about is whether norm is the right word to describe people who hold 155 00:12:13,279 --> 00:12:18,919 what would typically be dismissed as kind of old fashioned conservative, blimpish views. 156 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:24,440 If you if you express those views, um, you know, at a 157 00:12:24,519 --> 00:12:26,639 university for instance, if you were to say at university, like Nigel Bigger 158 00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:31,000 did that, he doesn't that mean he didn't even say that he thought that 159 00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:35,679 the British Empire was on balance a fourth for good. He had. He 160 00:12:35,799 --> 00:12:41,519 simply was heading up a research project looking into whether or not, you know, 161 00:12:41,799 --> 00:12:48,519 morally, the British Empire was an unalloyed evil or had some redeeming qualities 162 00:12:48,519 --> 00:12:54,639 and just saying that resulted in a very serious attempt to cancel him within the 163 00:12:54,679 --> 00:13:00,799 academy. So I don't think you can describe even that view to lean my 164 00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:03,200 view, which is that on balance it was a force for good. And 165 00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:07,360 by the way, I think the main argument is not that we provided railways 166 00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:13,840 and infrastructure and helped countries like India industrialized. I don't think that's the argument. 167 00:13:13,879 --> 00:13:16,639 The argument is that for all its shortcomings, the British Empire was often 168 00:13:16,759 --> 00:13:20,799 better than what it replaced in various countries around the world, which is why 169 00:13:20,919 --> 00:13:24,799 it enjoyed the public support it did, and why we were able to maintain 170 00:13:24,840 --> 00:13:33,360 it with a skeleton staff. That's a that's the normally debate, whether you're 171 00:13:33,399 --> 00:13:35,600 on the bigger side of the argument or whether you're on the kind of the 172 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:41,320 rabid anti colonist lefty side of the debate, that is normally pantomime. I'm 173 00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:46,559 saying that those of us down the rabbit hole completely reject everything you tell us 174 00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:50,440 about history. We think it's absolute bollocks. We think it's dies okay. 175 00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:56,200 And I suppose when you explained you said that was one of the difficulties for 176 00:13:56,240 --> 00:14:03,960 you when trying to maintain, you know, cordial relations with people who disagree 177 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:07,480 with you about these fundamental issues, is that you think, why can't you 178 00:14:07,519 --> 00:14:11,879 see it? You know, you're an intelligent person, you're an educated person. 179 00:14:11,639 --> 00:14:16,919 Why why can't you see these patterns that I've detected? And I guess 180 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:22,080 from our point of view, when when you say things like what you just 181 00:14:22,159 --> 00:14:26,440 said about you know, it being some kind of a conspiracy of some kind 182 00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:33,240 to enrich a kind of tiny elite, and you said that some particular group 183 00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:35,759 had conspired them, have you not even you haven't even seen they are? 184 00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:39,240 You haven't even heard of the Millman group. Have you? You haven't. 185 00:14:39,279 --> 00:14:43,759 You haven't heard of Carol Quigley who wrote Tragedy and Hope, which which who 186 00:14:43,879 --> 00:14:50,840 was who was famously Bill Clinton's tutor. Carol Quigley was an American historian that 187 00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:54,360 I think the Hoover Institution, who who blew the whistle, who gave the 188 00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:58,879 game away kind of unwittingly. He wrote this book called Tragedy and Hope, 189 00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:03,399 which revealed really how how the elites operate and how they run the world. 190 00:15:03,639 --> 00:15:07,080 There was a version of events that get served up to people like you, 191 00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:11,000 regurgitated every time in the newspapers there's an article about empower or whatever, and 192 00:15:11,279 --> 00:15:16,039 you repeat all the kind of established history, which is established because it is 193 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:20,120 embedded in our culture. But just because it's embedded in our culture does not 194 00:15:20,279 --> 00:15:22,159 mean it's true. I mean, in a moment, I'm just going to 195 00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:24,799 Hope to discuss with you. I don't know whether you've read it yet. 196 00:15:24,799 --> 00:15:30,559 The book we were both sent called Introduction to True Philosophy by nm Win. 197 00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:33,480 Have you read it yet? Well, maybe we'll say it to another it's 198 00:15:33,519 --> 00:15:37,600 only just arrived. Sure. But the fact that you haven't heard of these 199 00:15:37,639 --> 00:15:41,759 people, the fact that you haven't heard of the Milner group. Is not 200 00:15:41,799 --> 00:15:46,279 indicative that therefore it's unimportant. It simply means you haven't done your research. 201 00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:52,799 And why would you, because I suppose you haven't yet been tempted to make 202 00:15:52,919 --> 00:15:56,720 the heroic journey, which which is partly a journey of learning of research. 203 00:15:58,399 --> 00:16:03,240 If you you know, I three times in the last three episodes, you've 204 00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:06,639 you've bigged up Winston Churchill. You think he's a great guy, and you 205 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:10,799 think Hitler, you know, Churchill, great, Hitler, the worst thing 206 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:15,759 in the world ever. And it's more complicated than that. You know Churchill 207 00:16:15,919 --> 00:16:18,799 was was rotten, but you're not going to You're not going to find that 208 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:22,559 out by reading Andrew Roberts's hagiography. It's just it's not how it works. 209 00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:29,799 You're not gonna you're not gonna get any any different version from from the official 210 00:16:30,519 --> 00:16:36,679 U nineteen fifties propaganda movie version of events on the on the Second World War 211 00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:41,080 unless you start doing the deep digging. So I don't know that's the reason 212 00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:42,120 for that. For the divide, it seems to me that it's a lack 213 00:16:42,159 --> 00:16:47,480 of curiosity on your part, but coupled with perhaps a sort of unwillingness to 214 00:16:47,519 --> 00:16:52,879 expose yourself to the potential ridicule which comes from taking unorthodox POI positions, even 215 00:16:52,919 --> 00:16:57,480 if they're right. Well, I think I don't think if if we are 216 00:16:57,519 --> 00:17:03,399 going to maintain cordial relations, I don't think it helps for you to try 217 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:08,359 and explain, at least to yourself why I disagree with you bye bye, 218 00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:15,559 by imagining it's because I'm either paid opposition or because I'm too cowardly to it 219 00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:19,599 to it. Well, you describe yourself as going on a heroic journey. 220 00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:23,640 Yeah, it's sort of, it's it's it's it's a sort of I don't 221 00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:26,680 know. I don't, I don't. I don't think it's to do with 222 00:17:26,319 --> 00:17:32,599 who's the more morally courageous. I think we just disagree in good faith. 223 00:17:32,759 --> 00:17:34,000 And I think I think when you when you talk about, you know, 224 00:17:34,119 --> 00:17:38,200 the real causes of World War One, what Churchill was really like, he 225 00:17:38,319 --> 00:17:44,920 was actually rotten, you've got it wrong. You sound like weirdly over emphatic, 226 00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:49,599 as though there is an unequivocal, very simple truth about issues like what 227 00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:52,559 were the causes of the First World War? That it's not that that that 228 00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:56,960 any kind of discussion or debate about that or whether Churchill was a good or 229 00:17:56,960 --> 00:18:00,559 a bad leader? Was he was? He? Did he have some shortcomings? 230 00:18:00,599 --> 00:18:03,200 Of course he did? Did that make him a bad leader? No? 231 00:18:03,799 --> 00:18:08,480 I mean it's it's it's it's it's sort of be your unwilling, your 232 00:18:08,519 --> 00:18:12,480 your your insistence that there are kind of black and white answers to all these 233 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:19,359 unbelievably complicated questions. Um, it is suggestive I suppose of a kind of 234 00:18:19,759 --> 00:18:26,039 a craving for for simplicity and moral certainty in a kind of increasingly confusing world, 235 00:18:26,839 --> 00:18:33,039 which which makes me now now you're psycho. Now, yeah, I 236 00:18:33,039 --> 00:18:37,799 suppose I suppose that's how that's that's my asis. Well, my equivalent, 237 00:18:37,960 --> 00:18:41,799 and I'm sure your wife does this too, my equivalent of what you do, 238 00:18:41,839 --> 00:18:47,119 which is to imagine that we're willfully blind or just too scared to kind 239 00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:51,960 of confront the truth or find out the truth because we'd be too upset by 240 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:55,359 it would rock our worlds. I mean that that's your sort of way of 241 00:18:55,759 --> 00:19:00,880 rationalizing why apparently sensible people whom you like or love disagree with you. I 242 00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:03,960 think our way of rationalizing it in your case is, as you say, 243 00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:07,960 it's to say, well, he's he's he's um, he's, he's, 244 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:11,039 he's. Well. To say you've gone a bit mad, I think with 245 00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:15,400 me maybe putting it too far, or to say you were suffering from anyway. 246 00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:21,720 It's it's a sort of it's I mean, you're like someone who's discovered 247 00:19:21,759 --> 00:19:25,880 religion late in life. You've experienced this, this, this kind of road 248 00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:30,519 on the that this kind of damask Damascus like conversion. Yeah, and and 249 00:19:30,519 --> 00:19:33,200 and now you're and now you're now you now you have all the kind of 250 00:19:33,279 --> 00:19:40,839 passion and zeal of a born again you know, member of this new religious 251 00:19:40,839 --> 00:19:44,400 movement. And it reminds me in some ways that people who've kind of drunk 252 00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:48,559 the woke cool aid, the kind of intolerance of descent, the conviction that 253 00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:56,400 you and your fellow travelers are alone awake and everyone else is willfully blind or 254 00:19:56,519 --> 00:20:02,799 frightened or in some cases corrupt. Um more curiosity. It's more curiosity as 255 00:20:02,799 --> 00:20:07,960 to why why you are so incurious? So for exult, I mean, 256 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:10,759 let me ask you, do you believe that there is such a thing as 257 00:20:10,799 --> 00:20:14,519 truth? And do you think we are capable of getting closer to the truth 258 00:20:14,599 --> 00:20:18,960 or do you think it's a kind of a vainglorious vainglorious task force. Even 259 00:20:19,079 --> 00:20:23,559 even imagine that in this world of repeating narratives we could possibly hope to differentiate 260 00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:27,000 between truth and forsood Now, I think I think we can. I think 261 00:20:27,039 --> 00:20:33,240 we can. We can certainly approach the truth. I believe you, I 262 00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:37,160 believe that there is I believe in objective reality. I'm not a postmodernist. 263 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:41,680 Even historians, I think can have kind of useful evidence based debates about things 264 00:20:41,759 --> 00:20:45,759 like the causes of the First World War? Was Churchill a good leader? 265 00:20:45,039 --> 00:20:48,960 What would have happened if we'd come to terms with Germany in nineteen forty and 266 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:51,720 so on and so forth. I mean, I think, I think it's 267 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:56,200 possible to have intelligent, informed discussions that improve our understanding of the world and 268 00:20:56,240 --> 00:21:02,240 maybe bring us closer to the truth. But I think the idea that there 269 00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:07,880 are short cuts that you can kind of bypass all the complexity and nuance and 270 00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:11,599 all the conflicting evidence and take into account bias. Where did I say that 271 00:21:11,599 --> 00:21:15,359 there were short cuts? Well, it sounds like, you know, it 272 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:18,000 sounds like you know, you think, you think that you think you've discovered 273 00:21:18,039 --> 00:21:21,440 that there was this kind of what I'm saying that this caused the First World 274 00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:25,599 War, which was a conspiracy or something called the Miller Group. It sounds 275 00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:27,480 a bit simple, mind the Millner Group. Look, I could give you 276 00:21:27,519 --> 00:21:33,519 a whole list of things which I think I could fairly safe. You bet 277 00:21:33,839 --> 00:21:40,039 that you have never investigated with any any degree of depth or even curiosity. 278 00:21:40,599 --> 00:21:42,599 You haven't looked into the moon landings and whether they were really You haven't looked 279 00:21:42,599 --> 00:21:48,200 into nine eleven. You haven't looked into the origins of the of the First 280 00:21:48,279 --> 00:21:51,640 or Second World Wars. You haven't looked into the origins of the French Revolution. 281 00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:55,720 You haven't looked to You haven't heard of the Milner Group. You haven't. 282 00:21:56,920 --> 00:22:02,960 Yeah, you'd never read a book on the origins of the sixties counterculture 283 00:22:03,039 --> 00:22:07,200 suggesting that actually that this was a CIA operation. All this stuff would be 284 00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:15,240 you would dismiss this stuff because it's it's kind of outside the confines of acceptable 285 00:22:15,279 --> 00:22:18,200 discourse. That's are they overtal window if you started talking about this stuff, 286 00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:21,559 it would be by by your position in the mainstream media, you could never 287 00:22:21,839 --> 00:22:26,240 you could never concede the possibility that that well, I mean, you wouldn't 288 00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:30,559 even you wouldn't even see that you, by your position in the mainstream media. 289 00:22:30,599 --> 00:22:33,599 Why did you throw that in, James as my motive for not read, 290 00:22:33,599 --> 00:22:40,119 wouldn't even see brackpop book about why dinosaurs are surely surely that sance will 291 00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:41,920 be hang on, okay, James, I will go and investigate these things, 292 00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:45,359 so will I will look into them. I'm genuinely curious now to see 293 00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:49,200 what your point of view is, because ultimately this is not a battle between 294 00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:56,720 normalis and whatever rude term, disprousing term we tend to we use on one 295 00:22:56,759 --> 00:23:02,839 another. It's ultimately the battle between truth and lies. And the only thing 296 00:23:03,079 --> 00:23:06,559 I've said this to you before, the only thing that matters to me is 297 00:23:06,559 --> 00:23:08,559 the truth. I don't mind being ridiculed if I speak the truth. I 298 00:23:08,559 --> 00:23:14,640 don't mind as long as I as long as I do my research. Well, 299 00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:17,400 I guess, I guess follow it without fear or favor. I guess 300 00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:19,400 my, my, I think we've gone down this road before. But my 301 00:23:22,759 --> 00:23:26,519 object, well, I think I think the the the the reason that's not 302 00:23:26,559 --> 00:23:33,440 particularly convincing that it's only your fearless commitment to follow the truth wherever it may 303 00:23:33,519 --> 00:23:38,279 lead that's led you down these rabbit holes. And my lack of curiosity and 304 00:23:38,519 --> 00:23:42,720 cowardice and willing and wanting to maintain my position in the MSM is why I 305 00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:45,319 haven't gone down them. The reason particularly well, hang on, let me 306 00:23:45,319 --> 00:23:51,400 finish the point. The reason that's not particularly credible is because typically, James, 307 00:23:51,519 --> 00:23:56,599 you just have to just have the slightest whiff of a conspiracy about something, 308 00:23:56,920 --> 00:24:03,440 the slightest whiff. You read one article claiming that that that that do 309 00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:11,200 you know that Paul McCartney died in nineties, and you can and you believe 310 00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:15,519 it wholeheartedly. I think anyone who doesn't believe it is some normal cuck. 311 00:24:17,319 --> 00:24:19,000 It's it's not as though you've kind of, I mean, to discover let's 312 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:22,599 say, you know, the truth about the Kennedy assassination or the truth about 313 00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:26,279 nine to eleven. I mean, you'd have to wade through enormous documents, 314 00:24:26,279 --> 00:24:30,559 not just one book written by a conspiracy theorists claiming to be a felist truth 315 00:24:30,559 --> 00:24:34,839 teller, and there's an enormous, you know, mountain of evidence. You'd 316 00:24:34,839 --> 00:24:38,039 have to wade through the impression that your commitment, I mean, if you 317 00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:44,880 if your sole motive was discovering the truth and following it wherever it leads you'd 318 00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:48,119 be much more diligent, intellectually diligent than you are. But actually you see 319 00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:53,200 one you read one book putting a very contentious point of view which seems to 320 00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:57,119 fit in with your general conspiratorial worldview, and you completely believe it, hook 321 00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:03,960 line and sinkers, no critical growing. You're back your position that the truth 322 00:25:03,039 --> 00:25:06,920 is attainable. You're now saying, oh, it's so complicated, no one's 323 00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:10,319 got time not say it's not at table. But it takes real intellectual much 324 00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:15,279 intellectual? Right? Is that the intellectual James, I don't get the impression 325 00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:19,279 you've made so much information, so much information, that that each of these 326 00:25:19,319 --> 00:25:25,000 subjects would require a lifetime research and it's impossible to attain the truth. That's 327 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:29,039 a very good coke terbes. And you haven't really explained to me why you 328 00:25:29,079 --> 00:25:32,720 know, you haven't given me a convincing explanation as to why you won't examine 329 00:25:32,799 --> 00:25:37,920 the counter arguments, which I believe the great argues. And you falsely accused 330 00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:41,960 me, You falsely accused me of having you've invented this one single article. 331 00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:47,119 I've read like, okay, what so so on every any given topic I 332 00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:49,720 found the article where is this article? Is it? Presume it's on a 333 00:25:49,759 --> 00:25:53,720 conspiracy website with this sort of garish print and stuff, and you know it's 334 00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:57,720 not to be trusted. Yeah, is that how it works? Yeah? 335 00:25:57,839 --> 00:26:11,480 Well, I don't get the impression that you dispassionately assess these contentious theories and 336 00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:17,799 weigh them against countervailing evidence and try and reconcile them with everything we do know 337 00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:19,960 about the events in question. Well, how do you know I get the 338 00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:23,039 impression? How do we know you lap it up? James? You just 339 00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:30,039 you conspiracy theory because you believe in so many of them, believe in one 340 00:26:30,079 --> 00:26:33,200 of them. Then that might be intellect led you to reject a mainstream talking 341 00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:37,839 about you. Why do you believe in every single conspiracy theory? Kim trails, 342 00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:42,759 dinosaurs fake, Paul McCartney more there that I didn't even know about the 343 00:26:42,759 --> 00:26:45,920 First World War at nine eleven? Are you a nine to eleven truth? 344 00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:49,000 Are now too? I mean, it just don't you think it undermines the 345 00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:52,839 credibility of any any single position when it turns out that you believe every single 346 00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:56,960 one of these conspiracy theories. I mean, it isn't that a bit odd, 347 00:26:56,039 --> 00:27:00,839 James? It's a good ranch. But he did not question you talked 348 00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:06,079 about stuff that you talked about we know, I mean, how do you 349 00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:08,640 know this stuff you seem to You seem to be implying that there is this 350 00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:15,440 acceptable body of knowledge which which one cannot transgress that we know. How do 351 00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:18,319 you know if you haven't looked into it. You haven't questioned any of your 352 00:27:18,319 --> 00:27:25,240 assumptions. Have you about what anything? I mean, any of the issues 353 00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:30,160 I met I mentioned. We'll cover evolutionary theory next week because you haven't read 354 00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:33,640 the book yet. I'd quite like you to read the section on Darwin and 355 00:27:33,799 --> 00:27:38,599 Darwin's own doubts about evolutionary through I bet I bet you imagine maybe I'm misrepresentative, 356 00:27:38,599 --> 00:27:41,480 but I don't think I am. I bet you imagine that evolutionary theory 357 00:27:41,559 --> 00:27:45,000 is completely kosher and explains how we're here. Well, we can discuss that 358 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:48,799 next week when you read the book. I don't want to discuss it when 359 00:27:48,799 --> 00:27:52,839 I got the advantage of you. But there are many issues that I think 360 00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:56,599 almost everything in the world that we have been encouraged since birth, and certainly 361 00:27:56,599 --> 00:28:03,480 through the education system and stutady through the media to accept as as a truth 362 00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:10,799 um of which there was. There was no reasonable doubt. Almost the more, 363 00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:14,079 the things that we are most encouraged to believe are true are the ones 364 00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:18,799 we should be most skeptical of. Evolutionary being good theory being a good example 365 00:28:18,799 --> 00:28:21,960 of this, But there are plenty of others. Well, there was. 366 00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:26,359 Yeah, there was certainly a lot of resistance to a theory of evolution when 367 00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:30,799 it was first proposed. But we can do nine to eleven if you want 368 00:28:30,839 --> 00:28:33,200 it. I mean, you know that it is my view. Well, 369 00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:36,039 yeah, I mean nine to eleven was not planned by a man in the 370 00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:38,440 cave, for example, It was not planned by some had been laden. 371 00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:44,960 The some had been laden was a CIA asset. Now, I recognized that 372 00:28:45,039 --> 00:28:51,119 those who still take the mainstream media seriously and who who are sort of buy 373 00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:55,839 into establishment history will think that's out landish. But anyone has looked into it, 374 00:28:55,880 --> 00:29:00,839 I think it is at least alige of the possibility that there were there 375 00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:07,720 were inside insider hands involved in it. Well, um, yeah, I 376 00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:11,279 I did. I remember, I did look into it in some depth. 377 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:15,079 James, when right, what did you find? What did you find? 378 00:29:15,079 --> 00:29:25,799 And well, I examined claims that that that that the buildings were blown up 379 00:29:25,839 --> 00:29:29,839 from the inside, that the planes themselves couldn't have caused the structural damage which 380 00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:33,079 prompted the buildings to collapse. And and and they didn't really hold up. 381 00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:37,559 Oh they did not. Oh right, okay, it was it seemed to 382 00:29:37,559 --> 00:29:41,839 me that there was a perfectly rational explonent that that it was that there was 383 00:29:41,839 --> 00:29:47,279 a beverly rational explanation for why the both of the towers could have collapsed, 384 00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:52,359 having been flown into by aeroplanes packed with you know, UM jet fuel, 385 00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:57,000 that the explosions would have been sufficient. And you based your your decision to 386 00:29:57,039 --> 00:30:03,480 accept the kind of the excuse version on what did you say, the excuse 387 00:30:03,559 --> 00:30:04,119 version. I mean, it wasn't. It didn't. It didn't. It 388 00:30:04,119 --> 00:30:10,720 didn't particularly it didn't reflect particularly well on the United States. I didn't think. 389 00:30:10,759 --> 00:30:15,799 I mean, it's not as if UM didn't reflect particularly well in the 390 00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:18,720 United States. I mean, I think there's an order of difference between alleged 391 00:30:18,799 --> 00:30:26,799 terrorists buildings. And you say, you say that one of your one of 392 00:30:26,799 --> 00:30:30,960 your ways of dismissing what I think is probably the truth about nine elevens. 393 00:30:30,079 --> 00:30:33,160 So well, that's the narrative that serves the kind of prevailing interests of the 394 00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:37,839 powers that be, But it didn't really well it's well, it's rather it 395 00:30:37,839 --> 00:30:41,319 made a look rather foolish for having kind of provided some have been laden and 396 00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:48,200 otherm hudgeted in with IF weapons, you know, during the after Russia's invasion 397 00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:52,319 of Afghanistan, if IF IF the small a small piece of embarrassment, minor 398 00:30:52,359 --> 00:30:56,480 embarrassment, let them get away with the much bigger thing that they actually plotted 399 00:30:56,559 --> 00:31:02,319 and executed. This then I think it was a very small price to pay. 400 00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:06,119 I'm still nook. But the bigger thing it was, it was basically 401 00:31:06,119 --> 00:31:11,240 a bit of a disaster, wasn't it. I mean it it goes like 402 00:31:11,359 --> 00:31:15,359 this times, it goes like this every Okay, So this happened with with 403 00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:18,119 Kennedy, it would happen with the moon landings, it would happen with with 404 00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:25,359 nine eleven. So there is the event itself, which is with which the 405 00:31:25,519 --> 00:31:30,240 narrative version is the one that's bombarded on us in the media and elsewhere. 406 00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:33,480 You know, the look at the moon landings, look at the flags, 407 00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:38,039 here's the president on the phone, or here's Kennedy being assassinated. It's the 408 00:31:38,079 --> 00:31:41,960 worst thing everyone can remember where they are. Then you get that the dissenting 409 00:31:42,039 --> 00:31:47,039 voices saying we'll hang on a second, this doesn't quite add up. And 410 00:31:47,079 --> 00:31:51,720 then what you have is the official response to the counter narrative, which is 411 00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:56,839 we we got this this magazine to examine the outrageous claim that that jet fuel 412 00:31:56,880 --> 00:32:01,839 can't melts to steal but deal girders. We are going to cobble together this 413 00:32:02,599 --> 00:32:07,440 clausible sounding excuse which makes these skeptics look ridiculous. And that's that's the line 414 00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:12,279 that you you went for. Well, I think that's one difficulty. One 415 00:32:12,279 --> 00:32:15,599 difficulty with your position being supposedly based on the truth, James, is that 416 00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:22,920 you you've you dismiss any evidence that seems to contradict your position as being tainted 417 00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:29,480 in some way, it's a motive to pull the wool over our eyes, 418 00:32:29,519 --> 00:32:36,319 or because they're in cahoots with the cabal. How it works by nature and 419 00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:42,039 plausible, but it but by the same top if a hypothesis is unfalsifiable, 420 00:32:42,119 --> 00:32:45,400 then I don't see how it can be You can claim that it's true if 421 00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:49,519 it if it can't be falsified, had you know it's true, if you 422 00:32:49,599 --> 00:32:52,640 need to allow for any possibility of it being falsified, if you if you 423 00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:57,160 say that any any evidence which contradicts this I'm going to dismiss as tainted and 424 00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:00,799 therefore inadmissible in some way, Then how can you be in the print of 425 00:33:00,839 --> 00:33:06,839 your position, It's it's certainly very very difficult in a world where, um, 426 00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:09,839 the powers that be have they own the medium, they have all the 427 00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:17,400 money, they have corrupted so many people in institutions that it is very very 428 00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:23,799 difficult indeed, to to get to the truth because of that, because inevitably 429 00:33:23,839 --> 00:33:27,720 they're going to How do you know those things are true? How do you 430 00:33:27,799 --> 00:33:32,359 know? Well, do you deny the possibility that the world is is? 431 00:33:32,519 --> 00:33:36,000 I mean, we know, we know that there are rich people, we 432 00:33:36,039 --> 00:33:39,160 know that there, we know that there are super super rich people. In 433 00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:43,640 part are you are you telling me that you don't believe that they're there. 434 00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:47,799 Well, it's almost as though, James, you're not saying I've decided on 435 00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:53,000 weighing up the evidence to conclude that these conspiracy theories are true. It's as 436 00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:58,000 though you're starting with the with the premise that the conspiracy theories are true, 437 00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:00,799 and that enables, you know, to dismiss any evidence that seems to contradict 438 00:34:01,279 --> 00:34:07,960 in conspiracive theory said, the media can be corrupt, how can we trust 439 00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:13,079 anything in the media. Well, you're taking granted that the media is corrupt. 440 00:34:13,119 --> 00:34:17,519 You're not actually basing that on evidence because contradicted it. You can dismiss 441 00:34:17,559 --> 00:34:21,760 because the media is corrupt. It's a circular Well, the media, you 442 00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:24,199 know, that's a storm man. The media. The media, the mainstream 443 00:34:24,199 --> 00:34:28,679 media isn't everything. There are other other avenues by which you can research things. 444 00:34:28,679 --> 00:34:31,159 But why did you dismiss Andrew Roberts? Of course, why did he 445 00:34:31,199 --> 00:34:35,880 dismiss Andrew Roberts as a historian? You seem to you seem to dismiss you 446 00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:40,039 know, he's not just the mainstream media, but historians. Of course. 447 00:34:40,119 --> 00:34:45,159 I think I think that a lot of the lot of the history books, 448 00:34:45,199 --> 00:34:52,679 particularly any history books which become best sellers, because obviously the publishing industry is 449 00:34:52,480 --> 00:35:00,280 part of this this line machine um books countering the official narrative ten not to 450 00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:02,119 get published, tend to get suppressed, tend not to get generous views, 451 00:35:02,119 --> 00:35:07,519 and in the newspapers it's the system is bent. But that doesn't mean that 452 00:35:07,639 --> 00:35:12,719 it is not possible to investigate the counter arguments and find that they are actually 453 00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:16,320 more compelling but obviously they've been they've been suppressed. That's that's how the world 454 00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:22,719 works. Can you give me an example of um a conspiracy theory you encountered, 455 00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:25,639 were tempted to believe, but but ended up dismissing because the counterwere evidence 456 00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:37,760 was so overwhelming. M oh oh blome, I've oh we should you think 457 00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:40,880 about that? Somebody, somebody must have been pocket darling with her. Yeah, 458 00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:45,960 we should break for a first ad James yea, which is a message 459 00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:51,599 from a Better Way Conference. Hi, I'm doctor Tess Laurie, and I'd 460 00:35:51,679 --> 00:35:55,440 like to invite you to this year's Better Way Conference. Join more than fifty 461 00:35:55,480 --> 00:36:00,719 international speakers and our host Neil Oliver as they unveil how we can take back 462 00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:08,639 our health, breedom and sovereignty. Watch inspiring, empowering, uplifting live conversations, 463 00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:15,159 and attend workshops with world renowned health professionals, activists and journalists. This 464 00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:22,280 year's speakers include James Corbett, Matthias Dasmut, Laura Abeley, doctor Pierre Cory, 465 00:36:22,599 --> 00:36:27,360 doctor Jessica Rose, and Vera Shraff. 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Your ticket purchase supports the groundbreaking work of the World Council 475 00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:27,840 for Health. See you there. Yeah, so that's that was weird. 476 00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:35,079 That was if I I could tell you who, that was just just somebody 477 00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:38,920 I wasn't expecting to get a phone call from um Boris Johnson, Michael go. 478 00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:45,639 Yeah, it was in that in that level of strangers. When did 479 00:37:45,639 --> 00:37:50,480 you last talk to God? Still speak to him? Yeah? I spoke 480 00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:55,320 to him, um U gosh, I think I spoke to him at a 481 00:37:55,480 --> 00:38:00,920 party at Unheard about it was when Unheard launched their restaurants. I think it's 482 00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:05,079 about three or four months ago, right, um And do you think do 483 00:38:05,119 --> 00:38:09,320 you still talk to him like he's an honest broker. Yeah, I think 484 00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:14,800 I can. I still have I'm still I still you know, feel a 485 00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:19,159 certain amount of affection for him, um, and still like him. I 486 00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:22,280 haven't. I haven't fallen out with him over our disagreement about the pandemic. 487 00:38:24,639 --> 00:38:29,079 Well that's quite a big it's quite a big deal that. I mean, 488 00:38:29,199 --> 00:38:34,960 the guy who I would find it difficult to to be great bred with, 489 00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:38,679 with a guy who wanted to sort of continue imprisoning us indefinitely. Well, 490 00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:42,079 I'd like, I tell you what I'd really like, James. I'd love 491 00:38:42,119 --> 00:38:45,239 an opportunity to talk about him, talk to talk about it in depth, 492 00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:50,119 and to find out, um, you know, what his reasoning process was 493 00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:52,480 and why the decisions that were made were made. I'd love to, you 494 00:38:52,519 --> 00:38:57,360 know, get a bit more into what they were thinking. So m but 495 00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:00,800 you never give me a straight answer. But you know, slippery here is 496 00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:04,920 I mean, he's he's he's belial, he's I mean they all are. 497 00:39:05,119 --> 00:39:08,480 Boris and Borison Gove. I did an essay about this about about who were 498 00:39:08,519 --> 00:39:16,599 the greatest debaters of their generation? Boris and Borison Gove that they both um, 499 00:39:16,639 --> 00:39:21,679 well they well they were they used to take part in debating competitions, 500 00:39:22,119 --> 00:39:24,360 and there are there were others who who are also very good, but I 501 00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:29,079 guess um they certainly. I think they were probably you know, among the 502 00:39:29,119 --> 00:39:31,280 half of dozen best of our generation. Yeah, and we've we've seen them 503 00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:35,400 in action, and that I mean, I think I think Gove probably has 504 00:39:35,639 --> 00:39:38,920 Gove is more eloquent, Boris is sort of collection of of sort of of 505 00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:44,400 tricks, isn't he of sort of comedy comedy terms, whereas go I think 506 00:39:44,559 --> 00:39:50,599 is more supple and an agile. But yes, I mean, what what 507 00:39:50,719 --> 00:39:57,079 are these skills being used for? They've been used to advance whatever cause is 508 00:39:57,280 --> 00:40:00,920 of interest to their their sponsors. And they I don't just mean financial sponsors. 509 00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:07,119 I mean that they're sort of their political overlords, the powerbrokers who pull 510 00:40:07,199 --> 00:40:13,920 the strings. It's interesting, James, I think I think I was sort 511 00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:20,599 of puzzling over why it is that generally speaking, the more intelligent you are, 512 00:40:20,639 --> 00:40:27,440 the better educated you are, the higher caliber of university you're at or 513 00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:31,760 you've attended, the more likely you are to have kind of embraced the new 514 00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:37,199 woke religion, which is on the face of it, slightly counterintuitive. You 515 00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:39,239 would think that, you know, the more intelligent and the more educated, 516 00:40:39,239 --> 00:40:44,920 the better informed people are, the more independent minded they are, the more 517 00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:49,639 capable they are of you know, thinking freely about these issues and not being 518 00:40:49,679 --> 00:40:52,519 influenced by groupthink and not wanted to go along with the crowd. But actually 519 00:40:52,519 --> 00:40:57,320 the opposite is the case. The further up the kind of cognitive food chain 520 00:40:57,400 --> 00:41:02,079 you go, the more likely people are are to conform with the prevailing orthodoxes 521 00:41:02,079 --> 00:41:06,400 in these institutions. Why is that? And I came up with three reasons. 522 00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:07,599 One is that, well, of course they can see that it's in 523 00:41:07,639 --> 00:41:15,960 their interests to regurgitate the kind of prevailing orthodoxes because they're likely to go further. 524 00:41:15,639 --> 00:41:23,199 One of the reasons I think for the kind of extraordinary growth of the 525 00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:31,400 kind of woke mindset is that it's become a hallmark of status. It's being 526 00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:36,079 able to speak wokeish is a bit like being able to speak Latin or French 527 00:41:36,119 --> 00:41:38,360 in the nineteenth century. It's a way of advertising your membership of the kind 528 00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:44,079 of Brahmin class and it helps you, I think, get employed in places 529 00:41:44,079 --> 00:41:46,519 like McKinsey and Goldman, Sachs and the rest of it. So I think 530 00:41:46,559 --> 00:41:52,639 that's one reason for purely machiavellian careerist reasons. They just say whatever it is 531 00:41:52,679 --> 00:41:57,639 and express whatever beliefs they think are most likely to kind of advance their careers. 532 00:41:57,679 --> 00:42:01,159 But I think actually for most people, saying things that you don't believe 533 00:42:01,199 --> 00:42:05,760 to be true, or pretending to believe things that you don't is actually quite 534 00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:09,360 difficult. Most people find that pretty difficult. Most people are more honest than 535 00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:15,760 that and can't let and a bit more scrupulous. Their consciences won't allow them 536 00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:22,559 to be that unscrupulous. But the great advantage that smart people have is that 537 00:42:22,599 --> 00:42:27,159 they can talk themselves into believing these things. They can kind of rationalize it, 538 00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:30,320 they can justify it to themselves much more easily. And I think that 539 00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:36,039 was going on a lot during the pandemic. A lot of people involved in 540 00:42:36,079 --> 00:42:40,159 the promotion of lockdowns and vaccines persuaded themselves that it was in the public interest 541 00:42:40,199 --> 00:42:44,880 and not just in their interests to promote these things. Because if they were 542 00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:47,079 just doing it because it was in their interest, I think their consciences would 543 00:42:47,079 --> 00:42:51,320 have allowed them to kind of survive for very long. It would would have 544 00:42:51,639 --> 00:42:53,400 felt too guilty about it. But because they were smart, they were able 545 00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:55,880 to talk themselves into it very easily. And then there's a third reason, 546 00:42:55,920 --> 00:43:00,840 which actually comes up in a talk Churchill gave to Harrow's school, I think 547 00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:07,239 in nineteen forty one, in which he says that intelligent people, the more 548 00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:12,000 intelligent you are, quite often the more cowardly you are. And the reason 549 00:43:12,079 --> 00:43:17,000 for that is because you realize, you know just how much danger taking a 550 00:43:17,079 --> 00:43:20,719 risk is going to place you in. Because you because you have a kind 551 00:43:20,719 --> 00:43:25,079 of more vivid imagination, because you're capable of imagining different scenarios and thinking about 552 00:43:25,079 --> 00:43:30,159 the future a bit more clearly than someone less intelligent, you can see the 553 00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:35,239 terrible consequences, the terrible risk you might be taking if you challenge woke orthodoxy 554 00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:37,719 on campus, for instance. So that, I think is a third reason 555 00:43:37,079 --> 00:43:44,840 for the extraordinary degree of kind of groupthink and conformity amongst the kind of cognitive 556 00:43:44,840 --> 00:43:53,320 elite. Yeah. I've noticed this particularly among Etonians, having sort of seen 557 00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:59,000 them up close, first, you know, having rubbed shoulders with them like 558 00:43:59,519 --> 00:44:04,639 you did at Oxford and befriended quite a few of them, and secondly, 559 00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:09,159 having had had a child there um and seeing the kind of values it in 560 00:44:09,239 --> 00:44:14,559 culcates and I used to I used to think, in my in my set 561 00:44:14,599 --> 00:44:21,119 of normal days before I was wiser, I used to think that Eaton was 562 00:44:21,280 --> 00:44:27,360 kind of a bastion of of the values that that that I too shared, 563 00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:34,000 so that everyone, everyone would be pro fox hunting and standing up for things 564 00:44:34,039 --> 00:44:38,960 like small government and tradition and things things that want to like the sort of 565 00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:44,639 sanctity of the English country. So I not not not despoiling it with wind 566 00:44:44,639 --> 00:44:49,280 turbine, say, but keeping it for for proper things like grouse shooting and 567 00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:53,760 hunting and nice views and stuff. But actually, over time, I've come 568 00:44:53,800 --> 00:45:00,079 to realize that these what Etonians are above all, is creatures of the system, 569 00:45:00,119 --> 00:45:07,840 and they are trained to develop these chameleon characteristics which enable them to blend 570 00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:13,559 in whatever they do. So if the if the prevailing orthodoxy is that our 571 00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:20,760 entire countryside should be be carpeted with bat chomping birds lighting eco crucifixes, They'll 572 00:45:20,760 --> 00:45:22,920 do a reverse ferret and go, well, yes, I better have a 573 00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:28,920 half dozen on my stage and and make like bandits like all the other friendly 574 00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:30,960 capitalists scumbacks, because why not, It's it's the decent thing to do for 575 00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:37,880 the environment, doesn't it what what what um? And I think this this 576 00:45:37,320 --> 00:45:44,880 tendency among the upper classes and upper middle classes, the sort of I think 577 00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:47,880 it's been with us for a very long time. There's a character called ablon 578 00:45:49,000 --> 00:45:54,679 Ski in in Ana Karana and Oblonsky is his account. So he's in the 579 00:45:54,719 --> 00:46:00,159 Russian aristocracy, and he's a very very likable character. Everyone loves Oblonsky. 580 00:46:00,639 --> 00:46:07,119 And Oblonsky has no particular views of his own. He doesn't he doesn't really 581 00:46:07,119 --> 00:46:10,360 believe in anything, but he's decided that he's going to the stuff he will 582 00:46:10,360 --> 00:46:15,239 officially believe in is all the kind of liberal values. And he reads he 583 00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:21,639 reads the liberal newspapers to establish what the latest liberal orthodoxes are and embraces them 584 00:46:21,639 --> 00:46:23,719 accordingly, because he wants a comfortable life. He wants to blend in. 585 00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:28,159 He doesn't want to make a stand. And I think you're right. I 586 00:46:28,199 --> 00:46:32,679 think it is. I think it's the real purpose of the so called elite 587 00:46:32,760 --> 00:46:37,039 universities. I used to think that Oxford and Cambridge and Harvard and Yale and 588 00:46:37,079 --> 00:46:45,840 so on were designed to create a genuine elite, an elite that wasn't afraid 589 00:46:45,960 --> 00:46:50,400 to think outside the box or I hate using that phrase, that wasn't afraid 590 00:46:50,440 --> 00:46:54,920 to challenge orthodoxies and wasn't afraid to think originally on any given subject, and 591 00:46:54,960 --> 00:47:00,960 that would make the world a better place because of their intellectual training. But 592 00:47:00,039 --> 00:47:06,920 actually, and this applies especially to you, you tossenty did Ppe, it's 593 00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:15,679 actually all it does is it trains people to to become a bit like sort 594 00:47:15,719 --> 00:47:21,880 of senior courtiers in the Babylonian court. So you might be the cupbearer or 595 00:47:21,880 --> 00:47:27,719 something like that, or you might be in charge of the administration or executions 596 00:47:27,840 --> 00:47:31,480 or whatever. These are the people who work just below the level of the 597 00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:38,000 of the absolute kind of oligarch arkee, and they do what they're told, 598 00:47:38,079 --> 00:47:42,519 and they assimilate because they know they're going to get a pretty good position. 599 00:47:42,960 --> 00:47:45,719 You know they're going to They're not going to be they're not going to be 600 00:47:45,719 --> 00:47:50,400 slaves, they're not going to be bottom tier characters. I think that this 601 00:47:50,480 --> 00:47:52,519 tendency has always been with us. You look at you look at the history 602 00:47:52,559 --> 00:47:59,639 of I don't know, the Elizabethan court or the or the Court of Giles, 603 00:47:59,679 --> 00:48:04,639 and it's all about pronius amgen. It's all about putting in with prevailing 604 00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:08,920 orthodoxes, both to avoid being executed, but but generally to get a nice 605 00:48:08,920 --> 00:48:12,679 seat at the table and get all the luxurism, they don't care about the 606 00:48:12,719 --> 00:48:17,119 royal implications. Yeah, I think that's probably Yeah, that's probably been true 607 00:48:17,159 --> 00:48:22,039 for time immemorial. I mean, the interesting thing is that you do get 608 00:48:22,159 --> 00:48:30,960 kind of pockets of dissent within these institutions. And one of the things I 609 00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:37,519 think which has changed about elite universities in the last forty years since we were 610 00:48:37,559 --> 00:48:40,480 at one, James, is that when we were at university, you know, 611 00:48:40,760 --> 00:48:46,320 if you were a conservative, you weren't nearly as isolated as you are 612 00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:53,679 now, and the and the implications of kind of articulating your conservatism weren't nearly 613 00:48:53,840 --> 00:48:58,639 as terrifying as they are now. There was a brilliant piece and if you 614 00:48:58,679 --> 00:49:00,639 read it, James, from by member of the Oxford Feminist Society. It 615 00:49:00,679 --> 00:49:06,519 was in the Telegraph this morning, about what it's like being a student at 616 00:49:06,519 --> 00:49:13,159 Oxford today. If you're if you're if you're in a minority intellectually. So 617 00:49:13,920 --> 00:49:19,000 she's a gender critical feminist. She thinks biological sex is real, that sex 618 00:49:19,079 --> 00:49:24,280 is immutable and binary, and that puts her in an intellectual minority at Oxford, 619 00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:30,400 and she says she has to kind of assess when she meets someone at 620 00:49:30,400 --> 00:49:34,159 a party because she's writing, you know, a thesis about this, and 621 00:49:34,199 --> 00:49:36,880 they ask her what she's working on whether to tell them, she has to 622 00:49:36,880 --> 00:49:39,280 assess whether they're the sort of person who might hold it against her and try 623 00:49:39,280 --> 00:49:43,440 and get her into trouble. And it's not just that the people who disagree 624 00:49:43,440 --> 00:49:47,800 with you now just kind of don't want to be your friend, they actually 625 00:49:47,840 --> 00:49:52,800 want to actively expel you from the university. So I'll go to enormous lengths 626 00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:58,079 some of these some of these kind of you know, pinkhired activists to get 627 00:49:58,079 --> 00:50:00,440 you into trouble if you express, you know, a dissenting point of view. 628 00:50:00,800 --> 00:50:05,480 And she said it's almost like it sounded like she did actually uses analogy, 629 00:50:05,519 --> 00:50:10,400 but it sounded like almost like being in you know, East Berlin during 630 00:50:10,440 --> 00:50:15,440 the kind of communist era in which everyone around you could be a member of 631 00:50:15,440 --> 00:50:17,960 the stars. So you have to kind of figure out, before you know, 632 00:50:19,159 --> 00:50:22,239 saying anything that could get you into trouble, whether the person you're talking 633 00:50:22,239 --> 00:50:24,519 to is going to report you or tell you tell her friends about it and 634 00:50:24,559 --> 00:50:29,000 try and kind of organized to try and get you expelled. From a club 635 00:50:29,079 --> 00:50:32,239 or a society, or start tweeting about you on Twitter. I mean, 636 00:50:32,280 --> 00:50:38,079 it sounded so much more unpleasant to be in a kind of dissenting minority at 637 00:50:38,119 --> 00:50:40,079 Oxford now than it was for us when we were there. I mean, 638 00:50:40,199 --> 00:50:44,440 how, what what percentage of the undergraduate population do you think were Tories? 639 00:50:44,480 --> 00:50:46,639 That it was about twenty percent when we were there, must be about two 640 00:50:46,679 --> 00:50:52,199 percent now probably, I don't know, I don't know. I would just 641 00:50:52,280 --> 00:50:57,039 interested to say, how you say, it's almost like um the stars and 642 00:50:59,079 --> 00:51:00,360 you're not going to get thrown in prison. You're just gonna You're just gonna 643 00:51:00,400 --> 00:51:06,719 lose your friends. Yeah, but these are these are these are false consolations, 644 00:51:06,760 --> 00:51:12,800 because the point about living in you know, behind the Iron Curtain in 645 00:51:12,840 --> 00:51:21,440 the seventies and eighties was that you knew that the um that the people in 646 00:51:21,559 --> 00:51:29,719 charge were lying, lying scumbacks, and that that you had a moral duty 647 00:51:30,280 --> 00:51:34,360 and a sort of um. It was an interest of self survival to try 648 00:51:34,400 --> 00:51:37,559 and circumvent that the system as best you can, and to keep your private 649 00:51:37,559 --> 00:51:40,719 conversations to those people you could trust, if anyone could be trusted, and 650 00:51:40,800 --> 00:51:47,239 so on. You know, A bit like happened in um under you know, 651 00:51:47,280 --> 00:51:52,719 with with Vaslav have all you know that this the sort of the vulgt 652 00:51:52,800 --> 00:51:54,159 revolution, and so on, all the all these these tricks they had to 653 00:51:54,199 --> 00:51:59,480 do to try and survive and keep their social groups in intact and in defiance 654 00:51:59,519 --> 00:52:05,199 of the system. That we've almost got it worse now because we've got all 655 00:52:05,239 --> 00:52:13,039 these STARSI light restrictions in everywhere from the workplace to academ and yet the majority 656 00:52:13,199 --> 00:52:17,519 of the country is still persuading itself that we live in the free world and 657 00:52:17,840 --> 00:52:22,360 that none of this stuff actually, that this stuff will all pass, that 658 00:52:22,440 --> 00:52:27,760 this is not deliberate, but deliberate and well orchestrated over a period of decades, 659 00:52:28,239 --> 00:52:31,079 and that we are we are reaching the point of no return where we 660 00:52:31,159 --> 00:52:37,440 won't be able to resist anymore. I find our position more frightening than that. 661 00:52:37,519 --> 00:52:40,000 Then, in a way, that the situation must have been in the 662 00:52:40,039 --> 00:52:45,039 East, because at least back in the days of communism, they could always 663 00:52:45,039 --> 00:52:50,239 look across the West as a kind of as as a counter example that maybe 664 00:52:50,639 --> 00:52:53,800 maybe Western values will prevail and rescue them, or maybe the underground movement would 665 00:52:53,800 --> 00:53:01,159 succeed in in defeating the communist regime. I get no sense what we're experiencing 666 00:53:01,239 --> 00:53:08,039 now that anywhere near enough people as a percentage of the population recognize the severity 667 00:53:08,079 --> 00:53:13,320 of what's going on, and therefore I think that we are going to get 668 00:53:14,320 --> 00:53:20,559 strangled overwhelmed before we can build up an effective resistance. Well. Actually, 669 00:53:20,599 --> 00:53:23,920 one of the one of the interesting points that it's an anonymous article in the 670 00:53:23,960 --> 00:53:29,480 Telegraph by this Oxford University feminist. One of the interesting points she makes is 671 00:53:29,480 --> 00:53:36,199 that actually the view that sex is binary and immutable, a belief in the 672 00:53:36,280 --> 00:53:39,400 reality of biological sex, probably isn't a minority of view, even on campus. 673 00:53:39,639 --> 00:53:46,079 It's just that there is an extremely aggressive kind of vanguard of woke activists 674 00:53:46,199 --> 00:53:53,360 who will jump on anyone who expresses that view in order to enforce their particular 675 00:53:53,880 --> 00:53:59,159 orthodoxy. And I think that's a bit like you know, what things were 676 00:53:59,199 --> 00:54:04,519 like in Eastern Europe up until nineteen eighty nine. I mean, I think 677 00:54:04,559 --> 00:54:10,440 it's it's you people. People probably suspected in East Germany that most people were 678 00:54:10,480 --> 00:54:19,280 quite cynical about the regime and weren't true believers, but they didn't know that 679 00:54:19,360 --> 00:54:22,880 because people were prevented from speaking out. That that's one of the advantages a 680 00:54:22,000 --> 00:54:29,440 regime has from suppressing free speech, it conceals the fact from ordinary people that 681 00:54:29,519 --> 00:54:31,760 their dissenting points of view are actually the majority of view, because once that 682 00:54:31,880 --> 00:54:36,599 dawns on them, then they're much more likely to speak up and the regime 683 00:54:36,599 --> 00:54:38,239 becomes much more fragile. And eventually, I think that is what happened. 684 00:54:38,280 --> 00:54:44,519 I mean, when the Berlin Wall collapsed, people realized that actually the system 685 00:54:44,599 --> 00:54:47,039 wasn't nearly as robust as they had been led to believe, and they no 686 00:54:47,079 --> 00:54:52,280 longer needed to kind of falsify what they actually thought. And as they spoke 687 00:54:52,360 --> 00:54:54,440 up, it became clear that other people felt the same way, and it 688 00:54:54,480 --> 00:54:59,079 had a kind of domino like effect, and that's why all the regime's collapsed 689 00:54:59,119 --> 00:55:01,440 like dominoes, so quickly, one after the other. So I'm hopeful that 690 00:55:01,519 --> 00:55:07,280 we can see a similar Berlin Wall like effect, at least as far as 691 00:55:07,280 --> 00:55:09,480 the kind of woke her genemy is concerned. And I think we are beginning 692 00:55:09,480 --> 00:55:15,199 to see signs of the wall collapsing. So I'm optimistic that the atmosphere at 693 00:55:15,199 --> 00:55:20,480 Oxford won't remain, you know, as maoist as it is at the moment 694 00:55:20,519 --> 00:55:22,360 for much longer. And I think the fact that people are. People have 695 00:55:22,480 --> 00:55:29,079 actually spoken up to defend Kathleen Stock, and following this particular brew her Hart. 696 00:55:29,119 --> 00:55:32,880 But Kathleen Stock, gender critical feminist who has hounded out of Sussex University, 697 00:55:34,840 --> 00:55:37,519 she had been invited to speak, has been invited to speak at the 698 00:55:37,559 --> 00:55:45,119 Oxford Union on May the thirtieth, and the Oxford LGBTQ Plus Society condemned the 699 00:55:45,159 --> 00:55:49,039 fact that the Union had invited her because she's, according to them, transphobic 700 00:55:49,159 --> 00:55:54,000 and campaigns against trans people and is in favor of conversion therapy. All these 701 00:55:54,079 --> 00:55:59,960 ridiculous exaggerations and lies they told about her whipped up everyone into a kind of 702 00:56:00,039 --> 00:56:02,800 well not everyone, but the other activists into a kind of moral frenzy. 703 00:56:04,519 --> 00:56:07,840 The invitation has been condemned now by numerous JCRs, including James. I regret 704 00:56:07,840 --> 00:56:13,840 to tell you christ Church JCR and the Union have come under enormous pressure and 705 00:56:13,840 --> 00:56:20,760 that the Oxford Oxford University Students Union ALZO have even said, or did it 706 00:56:21,000 --> 00:56:23,119 a couple of weeks ago, say to the Oxford Union, you know you're 707 00:56:23,119 --> 00:56:28,599 going to have to rescind this invitation, and the fact that you haven't means 708 00:56:28,639 --> 00:56:31,000 that you can no longer exhibit at fresh As Fair this year, which is 709 00:56:31,000 --> 00:56:36,079 a really severe blow to the finances of the Oxford Union. You pick up 710 00:56:36,079 --> 00:56:40,199 about half their members each year from exhibiting at fresh As Fair. Anyway, 711 00:56:40,360 --> 00:56:45,000 the Three Speech Union intervened. Various academics wrote a letter to the Telegraph protesting 712 00:56:45,039 --> 00:56:49,000 about this, and I think as you have now done a U turn, 713 00:56:49,159 --> 00:56:52,360 so the Union will be able to exhibit at fresh As Fair and the talk 714 00:56:52,440 --> 00:56:54,559 is going ahead. It hasn't been canceled yet. The LGBTQ activists have said 715 00:56:54,559 --> 00:56:58,599 they're going to organize a big protest and it's going to be you know, 716 00:56:58,880 --> 00:57:02,079 it's going to be a lot of argi bargie on the day. But the 717 00:57:02,119 --> 00:57:05,880 fact that it hasn't been canceled, the fact that oursu have been forced to 718 00:57:05,880 --> 00:57:08,039 do a U turn, the fact that forty five academics signed a joint letter 719 00:57:08,400 --> 00:57:13,159 to the Telegraph, the fact that another group of undergraduates have got another letter 720 00:57:13,159 --> 00:57:15,960 in the Telegraph this morning. I think it's been signed by over one hundred 721 00:57:15,320 --> 00:57:20,280 saying these activists don't speak for us. We actually believe in free speech. 722 00:57:20,320 --> 00:57:22,519 We don't necessarily agree with Kathleen Stock, but we think she ought to have 723 00:57:22,559 --> 00:57:27,119 an opportunity to set out her stall in the public square where people can engage 724 00:57:27,119 --> 00:57:30,239 and debate with her. I mean, you know, you're beginning to see 725 00:57:30,239 --> 00:57:35,679 the emergence of a kind of counter movement at Oxford, and I think that's 726 00:57:35,800 --> 00:57:40,960 encouraging, So I don't think it's inevitable. And one curious thing about about 727 00:57:40,960 --> 00:57:45,039 what's happened in the past kind of twenty five years is it's almost as though 728 00:57:45,039 --> 00:57:49,840 the situation has been completely reversed. So now it's almost as if we look 729 00:57:50,239 --> 00:57:54,719 to the kind of former communist countries of Eastern Europe for you know, model 730 00:57:54,800 --> 00:58:02,159 behavior have had a push back against some of these kind of authoritarian intrusions interferences 731 00:58:02,199 --> 00:58:06,920 in our liberty, because they have stronger antibodies towards it, because they in 732 00:58:07,000 --> 00:58:10,880 living memory, they can still remember the horrors of the kind of Marxist control 733 00:58:10,960 --> 00:58:14,800 system. So it's almost as though, you know, a source of hope 734 00:58:14,800 --> 00:58:17,880 for us is to look over to Eastern Europe and see how, you know, 735 00:58:19,039 --> 00:58:22,119 they push back against these things in places like Poland and Hungry. Anyway, 736 00:58:22,880 --> 00:58:24,880 well, I think that the point I was going to make, which 737 00:58:24,920 --> 00:58:30,320 got slightly lost, is that because because generally speaking, the people who dissent 738 00:58:30,559 --> 00:58:36,559 from progressive orthodoxy at elite university's now are in a much smaller minority than they 739 00:58:36,599 --> 00:58:40,880 were when we were there forty years ago, and because the consequences the risks 740 00:58:40,960 --> 00:58:45,039 of publicly dissenting are much greater now than they were then. The handful of 741 00:58:45,079 --> 00:58:50,880 people that are willing to stand up and publicly defend free speech pushed back against 742 00:58:51,199 --> 00:58:58,719 woke gobbledegook on campus challenge net zero and all its nonsense implications. They are 743 00:58:58,760 --> 00:59:04,920 remarkably impressive people. They have a kind of moral courage that is really admirable. 744 00:59:04,920 --> 00:59:08,079 I met quite a few people like that at the National Conservatism Conference last 745 00:59:08,119 --> 00:59:12,760 week. But you know, and there's a real sense of camaraderie amongst them, 746 00:59:12,840 --> 00:59:15,000 and they take real sucker from kind of being together and giving each other 747 00:59:15,039 --> 00:59:20,320 moral support because they are such a beligue with minority, and they are taking 748 00:59:20,360 --> 00:59:24,960 such huge risks by kind of standing up and saying no, I'm not going 749 00:59:25,039 --> 00:59:28,280 to stand for this nonsense. I don't believe it, it's not true. 750 00:59:28,320 --> 00:59:31,440 I'm going to call it out. That's difficult and career threatening, destroys their 751 00:59:31,480 --> 00:59:36,159 social lives and the rest. So they're an impressive bunch and the fact that 752 00:59:36,159 --> 00:59:40,000 they exist, it feels to me like that rump is going to be that's 753 00:59:40,000 --> 00:59:44,480 the bedrock on which they kind of fight back will be based. Okay, 754 00:59:44,679 --> 00:59:49,920 should be doing another break. So this is a message from Indeed. There 755 00:59:49,920 --> 00:59:52,360 are two sides to every story. But if you want to hire great talent 756 00:59:52,400 --> 00:59:55,920 for your business faster, there's just one way to do it. You need 757 00:59:57,119 --> 01:00:01,280 Indeed. Indeed is the hiring platfor for where you can attract, interview, 758 01:00:01,320 --> 01:00:07,719 and hire all in one place instead of spending hours on multiple job sites searching 759 01:00:07,719 --> 01:00:12,239 for candidates with the right skills. Indeeds a powerful hiring platform that can help 760 01:00:12,280 --> 01:00:16,000 you do it all. 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He offers, good for a limited time, 769 01:00:54,280 --> 01:01:00,360 claim your seventy five dollar credit now at indeed dot com slash London. 770 01:01:00,440 --> 01:01:04,840 That's Indeed dot com slash London. Terms of conditions apply. Need to hire 771 01:01:05,199 --> 01:01:10,000 you need indeed. Um is it culture Corner? Now we can go to 772 01:01:10,000 --> 01:01:15,079 Culture Corner. Yeah, yeah, one more to do? Okay, um, 773 01:01:15,480 --> 01:01:17,239 yes, what have you? What have you been watching? So? 774 01:01:17,519 --> 01:01:28,960 I think I'm still on Silo and and Sanctuary Silo and Sanctuary. Yeah, 775 01:01:28,960 --> 01:01:32,639 I'm I'm I'm still plodding through the things I have been watching. So I 776 01:01:32,679 --> 01:01:38,960 haven't quite got to the end of playlist yet. Um, and I'm still 777 01:01:40,000 --> 01:01:46,320 wading through the last season of Succession. I've just watched the Eve of Election 778 01:01:46,440 --> 01:01:51,159 episode. I haven't yet watched the election episode. Oh, we've got to 779 01:01:51,159 --> 01:01:53,639 talk about that. That's what we should talk about with the equal election episode 780 01:01:54,400 --> 01:01:58,559 Eve of Election. So you don't know, that's right. I think I 781 01:01:58,599 --> 01:02:01,920 don't know who's won yet either. The last episode, I thought that it 782 01:02:02,039 --> 01:02:08,519 kind of climaxed with a party at Shives. Yes, yes, obviously we're 783 01:02:08,519 --> 01:02:13,719 not going to give because I know some people are playing catch up. But 784 01:02:14,079 --> 01:02:17,960 I've really been enjoying I think that since we are allowed to say that he's 785 01:02:19,039 --> 01:02:22,159 died, aren't we I think we're allowed to say that. Yeah, yeah, 786 01:02:22,199 --> 01:02:25,440 okay, so he's dead. Um, Logan Roy is dead. But 787 01:02:25,719 --> 01:02:30,159 since he's died, I think they've stopped treading water. But I think I 788 01:02:30,159 --> 01:02:37,920 think the first in some ways, the first well, the second third series, 789 01:02:37,440 --> 01:02:42,960 we're really kind of rehashes of the variations on the theme of the first 790 01:02:43,039 --> 01:02:47,519 series. Yeah, just just the kids kind of monking around while dad gets 791 01:02:47,519 --> 01:02:52,079 on with the business of doing business. But now now the dad has gone, 792 01:02:52,199 --> 01:02:54,800 it's really interesting trying to work out which of the children is going to 793 01:02:54,880 --> 01:03:00,800 win. And I'm enjoying there there or their machiavellian scheming, backstabbing and so 794 01:03:00,840 --> 01:03:05,199 on. What what say you? Yeah? I agree? I agree. 795 01:03:06,079 --> 01:03:10,440 The death of Logan Roy was the kind of catalyst that was needed to kind 796 01:03:10,440 --> 01:03:15,760 of kick what is it seven? Season five into life And yeah, it's 797 01:03:15,800 --> 01:03:17,320 it's, it's it's It's got a lot more interesting and a lot more fun 798 01:03:19,079 --> 01:03:22,880 the episode before, So I think the episode. I think that I think 799 01:03:22,920 --> 01:03:25,400 what I'm up to. I think I've just watched episode seven, which is 800 01:03:25,400 --> 01:03:29,760 the eve of election episode, so I think I've got episode eight to go, 801 01:03:29,880 --> 01:03:31,039 and then there are going to be two more. I think maybe the 802 01:03:31,280 --> 01:03:35,480 episode nine released today, I might have got that wrong. But but the 803 01:03:35,519 --> 01:03:39,960 episode before the Norway I watched last night, Well, there was the one 804 01:03:39,960 --> 01:03:44,199 set in Norway, which was absolutely that was that was fantastic. Yeah, 805 01:03:44,199 --> 01:03:47,000 that was great. And then there was the episode after that in which Kendall 806 01:03:47,639 --> 01:03:53,239 is preparing to kind of make his pitch as the kind of new CEO of 807 01:03:53,360 --> 01:03:57,719 Way Star, and he's talking about the homes of the future, which will 808 01:03:57,760 --> 01:04:02,519 be a kind of a fancy nancy retirement village where he claims movie stars will 809 01:04:02,559 --> 01:04:06,639 drop into static cruises that like that, the like cruises, but but but 810 01:04:06,679 --> 01:04:12,760 they're not not on water. It was and and you kind of and it 811 01:04:12,800 --> 01:04:15,519 was just the build up to him kind of making his pitch in front of 812 01:04:15,519 --> 01:04:21,280 all these kind of you know, investors and journalists was kind of you just 813 01:04:21,679 --> 01:04:26,519 you were you were terrified he was going to crash and burn, make an 814 01:04:26,519 --> 01:04:30,559 absolute fool of himself. Don't tell us what happened, because I won't tell 815 01:04:30,599 --> 01:04:33,159 you what happened, but I agree it was it was very well done. 816 01:04:33,159 --> 01:04:38,800 That And I tell you my theory about about about Succession, which hasn't which 817 01:04:38,840 --> 01:04:45,880 hasn't really changed. Um that Jesse Armstrong is a perennial piss taker, as 818 01:04:46,000 --> 01:04:49,480 I mean, you're presumably a fan of Peep Show, Yes, yes, 819 01:04:49,800 --> 01:04:54,559 of our greatest comedy series. And he's all about the jokes. He's always 820 01:04:54,599 --> 01:04:57,960 about the he's always looking for the angle, the comedy angle. He's not 821 01:04:58,079 --> 01:05:01,760 really interested that the serious stuff is just there to provide a foil to the 822 01:05:01,920 --> 01:05:08,400 to the gags. Yeah, and I've always felt that, Okay, well, 823 01:05:08,480 --> 01:05:12,519 research though it is, And and they've got writer's rooms now with a 824 01:05:12,559 --> 01:05:17,000 team that presumably looking to have business works. I think that the overarching theme 825 01:05:17,280 --> 01:05:25,039 of Succession has always been that these kids have not got an effing clue how 826 01:05:25,039 --> 01:05:30,559 to run a business. They're just they're just bickering, spoil in even ship. 827 01:05:32,039 --> 01:05:35,519 Yeah, yeah, they're they're bickering and sport. And I think that 828 01:05:35,519 --> 01:05:43,440 that's what really um, that that he's telling us about these about these isn't 829 01:05:44,280 --> 01:05:48,800 Yeah. So yeah, so I think you're right. I think Jesse Armstrong 830 01:05:49,599 --> 01:05:54,599 is a kind of a moral satirist. Like I don't think there's I don't 831 01:05:54,639 --> 01:05:59,519 think there's a there's there's a there's a serious it's not informed by a kind 832 01:05:59,519 --> 01:06:04,440 of a political world view. He's not trying to score political points. He's 833 01:06:04,440 --> 01:06:09,480 not trying to make the kind of our capitalist overlords look ridiculous as a way 834 01:06:09,480 --> 01:06:13,800 of, you know, turning us against capitalism. It's just looking for the 835 01:06:13,880 --> 01:06:17,880 ridiculous, looking for comedy, looking for fast wherever he can find it. 836 01:06:17,880 --> 01:06:23,079 And of course in that world it's pregnant with with comedy. And that's true 837 01:06:23,079 --> 01:06:27,559 too, isn't it of Martin Amis? Who who? Who died a couple 838 01:06:27,559 --> 01:06:31,480 of days ago, don't Yeah, so gelt corner, I think we ought 839 01:06:31,480 --> 01:06:35,559 to discuss, and also a second but oh yes, let's let's do that. 840 01:06:35,599 --> 01:06:39,559 So say, have you got some Amiss stories? Because I have? 841 01:06:39,559 --> 01:06:41,840 Have you? Okay, let's let's um. I was just going to say, 842 01:06:41,880 --> 01:06:44,880 I think, I think just I think Martin Amis was, you know, 843 01:06:45,119 --> 01:06:50,239 a brilliant comic novelist, and I think like many brilliant comic novelists, 844 01:06:50,280 --> 01:06:54,880 like his father, like evel In War, like PG. Woodhouse, you 845 01:06:54,920 --> 01:06:59,159 know, it was the primacy of the comedy, finding the comedy which made 846 01:06:59,239 --> 01:07:03,079 him such a did comic author. And but he was aware. I think 847 01:07:03,199 --> 01:07:08,519 that there was this kind of he had in order to be taken more seriously 848 01:07:08,639 --> 01:07:11,800 as a novelist, he needed, you know, a bigger agenda. He 849 01:07:11,840 --> 01:07:15,199 needed to be painting on a more serious canvas. So he often shoehorned in 850 01:07:15,320 --> 01:07:23,280 these big themes like nuclear armageddon, Stalin, the Holocaust, uh, and 851 01:07:24,079 --> 01:07:27,159 the environment. You know, that's in the information. The information is that 852 01:07:27,199 --> 01:07:30,800 the world's going to end because our planets dying. Um. And that that 853 01:07:30,800 --> 01:07:33,000 that that that was always you know, it always felt there was slightly grated 854 01:07:33,519 --> 01:07:40,360 Um when everybody wanted to know thought about the Holocaust, about Stalin, They 855 01:07:40,360 --> 01:07:44,239 wanted the jokes, they wanted the dead babies, dead baby, tell me 856 01:07:44,280 --> 01:07:47,920 you're tell me you're So It's only it's not a very exciting that I have 857 01:07:48,000 --> 01:07:54,000 to say, Um, it's I'm not going to do with Martin Amis impersonation. 858 01:07:54,280 --> 01:07:58,599 Um. But I when I was younger, when I when we just 859 01:07:58,920 --> 01:08:03,920 left the university, Martin Amos was the person I most wanted to be because 860 01:08:03,920 --> 01:08:06,559 he was an old faun ter eveler of you know, he was one of 861 01:08:06,599 --> 01:08:12,559 the young British novelists. I think that he was the you had to read 862 01:08:12,639 --> 01:08:16,159 it in the same way that for a slightly later generation, Will self was 863 01:08:15,880 --> 01:08:19,119 that was the author that you had to have to be ever quite had the 864 01:08:19,119 --> 01:08:23,520 same stage. No, no, no, I agree. Amos was was 865 01:08:23,560 --> 01:08:27,039 the thing. And he and he was good looking, and he and he 866 01:08:27,439 --> 01:08:32,760 smoked cigarettes and looked you know, got got big advances and he was a 867 01:08:33,800 --> 01:08:38,119 rather attractive girlfriends as well. Yeah, and he sort of had this scow 868 01:08:38,359 --> 01:08:41,880 which which, by the way, I think his scow was not a product 869 01:08:41,880 --> 01:08:44,760 of him being a kind of dark, brooding figure. That he was simply 870 01:08:44,800 --> 01:08:47,279 embarrassed about his teeth, which he later got fixed. So he didn't he 871 01:08:47,279 --> 01:08:49,680 didn't want to be seen smiling. He was obsessed with his teeth. If 872 01:08:49,680 --> 01:08:53,520 you if you read Dead Babies, it's about it's that there's a character who's 873 01:08:53,560 --> 01:09:00,840 completely obsessed with his teeth. Yea, and that um so I longed to 874 01:09:00,880 --> 01:09:05,279 be master Amos and I finally got to spend time with him on this, 875 01:09:05,560 --> 01:09:11,359 I think in twenty ten at the Dubai Literary Festival. For some reason, 876 01:09:11,399 --> 01:09:15,520 I got I got sent out to the Dubai Literary Festival and with my my 877 01:09:15,560 --> 01:09:19,279 friend David, whose sister was organizing it, who happened to be there were 878 01:09:19,319 --> 01:09:23,560 both sort of mischievous sorts, and both sort of of an age where we 879 01:09:24,079 --> 01:09:28,319 might sort of remember the cult of Amos because for veryone slightly London younger, 880 01:09:28,520 --> 01:09:30,199 they wouldn't know who he was. They didn't care because his later career was 881 01:09:30,239 --> 01:09:34,159 a bit, a bit of a bit of a flop um. And Amos 882 01:09:34,399 --> 01:09:39,039 was so he was he was staying in this in this same hotel as us, 883 01:09:39,079 --> 01:09:42,439 and he and he and he, so he couldn't really avoid his fellow 884 01:09:42,840 --> 01:09:46,439 writers, and although he tried to, he was always looking. You'd find 885 01:09:46,520 --> 01:09:50,039 him, whether it was quiet as you'd find him having a sort of solitary 886 01:09:50,079 --> 01:09:56,039 read, trying to escape everyone else. And I remember once going with David 887 01:09:56,119 --> 01:10:00,039 to sort of on an Amos hunt, and we we tracked him down and 888 01:10:00,680 --> 01:10:05,399 he was he wasn't exactly rude, but he clearly was not happy to be 889 01:10:05,479 --> 01:10:09,600 buttonholed um. And we thought, we said, we thought it was a 890 01:10:09,600 --> 01:10:13,520 bit cruel to to to kind of linger, you know, a bit like 891 01:10:13,640 --> 01:10:21,039 Greg trying to insert himself into one of those with with the Norwegian investor um. 892 01:10:21,119 --> 01:10:28,520 But I remember the weirdest thing was going to out into the desert with 893 01:10:28,640 --> 01:10:33,760 Martin Aamers to watch this um hawk, you know, birds of prey being 894 01:10:33,960 --> 01:10:40,600 hawking taking place, and we were we sort of smoked these hooker pipes and 895 01:10:41,560 --> 01:10:45,439 did desty things. I wish I could say that there was some sparkling piece 896 01:10:45,479 --> 01:10:48,359 of dialogue that I remembered from Namers, but now I didn't. I just 897 01:10:48,399 --> 01:10:53,920 I just had a weird experience of Martin Namers before he died, right right. 898 01:10:54,399 --> 01:10:57,279 I made him a couple of times, but I don't really have any 899 01:10:58,199 --> 01:11:01,680 good anecdotes involving him. My best Martin Amis anecdote, it's sort of Martin 900 01:11:01,720 --> 01:11:06,119 Amos adjacent, is that I once got into an argument with will Self at 901 01:11:06,199 --> 01:11:15,760 Green Street, remember that rather Yahemian aristocratic watering hole in Mayfair. Anyway, 902 01:11:15,079 --> 01:11:19,880 we were there at the bar, and will Self was a contributor at that 903 01:11:19,960 --> 01:11:24,600 time to the Modern Review, which I was editing. I think I actually 904 01:11:24,640 --> 01:11:30,079 discovered will Self. I think I published his first ever published article, or 905 01:11:30,119 --> 01:11:31,479 at least I think when I first met him he wanted to be a cartoonist, 906 01:11:31,479 --> 01:11:34,159 and we published some of his cartoons. It weren't too bad, but 907 01:11:34,199 --> 01:11:38,880 he decided, you know, he wanted them to become a writer. But 908 01:11:40,560 --> 01:11:45,920 he'd already I think, been taken under the wing of Martin Amos, who 909 01:11:45,960 --> 01:11:49,880 was a friend of his then brother in law's, and he felt very defensive, 910 01:11:49,920 --> 01:11:54,560 you know, he was kind of Martin Amos's chief disciple and defender. 911 01:11:55,560 --> 01:11:59,800 And I was sort of sounding off about how idiotic I thought it was that 912 01:12:00,239 --> 01:12:02,680 name has spent god knows what it was, thirty thousand pounds fifty thousand pounds 913 01:12:02,680 --> 01:12:06,840 one getting his teeth fixed, and that spoke of the kind of vanity that 914 01:12:08,279 --> 01:12:13,359 was unbecoming, you know, of a serious man of letters. And he 915 01:12:13,439 --> 01:12:16,199 got so cross that he picked me up and threw me into the fireplace. 916 01:12:17,039 --> 01:12:25,439 Um, and it was no, it wasn't. That wasn't that's what happened, 917 01:12:25,520 --> 01:12:28,680 James, that's one No. Um, No, there wasn't a fight 918 01:12:28,760 --> 01:12:31,359 in the fireplace at the time, but that, yeah, it was. 919 01:12:31,560 --> 01:12:35,800 It was possibly one of the last literary feuds ever in London. H Imagine, 920 01:12:36,079 --> 01:12:41,319 you know, people fighting in a bar because they're disagreeing about something of 921 01:12:41,359 --> 01:12:45,760 their favorite novelist has done. Unlikely these days, I imagined, but anyway, 922 01:12:45,600 --> 01:12:48,119 Jeremy Clark. Yeah, like you, big fan of Martin Amiss, 923 01:12:48,239 --> 01:12:51,079 and some of his best books are really really good and worth rereading. And 924 01:12:51,119 --> 01:12:55,880 I'm thinking actually rereading the information. Yeah, Jeremy Clarks. That Jeremy Clark 925 01:12:56,119 --> 01:13:01,800 was a Spectator writer who for quite a long time it's been writing the Low 926 01:13:01,800 --> 01:13:05,800 Life column in The Spectator, which is more or less inherited from Jeffrey Barnard, 927 01:13:05,840 --> 01:13:11,000 but I think is actually better, was better than Jeffrey Barnard. So 928 01:13:11,039 --> 01:13:15,880 The Spectator has these for those who aren't aren't familiar with Britain's oldest continuously published 929 01:13:15,960 --> 01:13:19,880 weekly. It has a High Life column written by Tacky and a Low Life 930 01:13:19,880 --> 01:13:23,920 column which was until a couple of weeks ago, written by Jeremy. But 931 01:13:24,000 --> 01:13:29,920 Jeremy was first diagnosed with I think prostate cancer in twenty thirteen, and ten 932 01:13:30,000 --> 01:13:32,640 years later. Wow, that's a long you know. I mean, I 933 01:13:32,640 --> 01:13:38,079 have to say I am, having read his last columns, I am very 934 01:13:38,119 --> 01:13:43,640 happy for him that he's finally been his finally shuffle off this more core because 935 01:13:43,640 --> 01:13:47,000 he was it was WinCE He was being very brave about it, but it 936 01:13:47,039 --> 01:13:53,720 was WinCE inducing. Sounded very pain that he was going through and not even 937 01:13:53,960 --> 01:13:59,159 pain that not even morphine could could quite get him away from. So I'm 938 01:13:59,279 --> 01:14:03,279 very happy for him wherever he is. I think he had Jeremy, did 939 01:14:03,319 --> 01:14:06,199 you ever go on a bender with him? I didn't, and no, 940 01:14:06,600 --> 01:14:10,199 I kept up. I sort of, you know, I would. I 941 01:14:10,279 --> 01:14:15,159 hung out with him a few times at Spectator parties. Yes, got quite 942 01:14:15,239 --> 01:14:17,319 drunk, but I never went on to anything. I know. Maybe I 943 01:14:17,319 --> 01:14:20,520 did actually once, or maybe once I did go on to a couple of 944 01:14:20,520 --> 01:14:25,720 other bars afterwards, but yeah, no, I never went on to kind 945 01:14:25,720 --> 01:14:29,159 of fully fledged benders the kind he used to occasionally write about in Low Life. 946 01:14:29,199 --> 01:14:34,000 No. I liked. I like the fact that he he operated in 947 01:14:34,039 --> 01:14:40,520 this media. Where he'd be, he'd find these rather good pubs in the 948 01:14:40,560 --> 01:14:44,640 West Country generally where where he lived. Doesn't really I think his mother run 949 01:14:44,720 --> 01:14:51,319 the nursing home or something where you were like as likely to take all manner 950 01:14:51,359 --> 01:14:58,159 of interesting drugs as you were were beer. I mean, he wasn't that 951 01:14:58,279 --> 01:15:00,520 He introduced the spectator to read ship to the concept that there was there is 952 01:15:00,760 --> 01:15:08,359 a world of of intoxication beyond alcohol. So I thought was I thought was 953 01:15:08,399 --> 01:15:13,159 good and healthy. And he wrote beautifully, he wrote beautifully. He was 954 01:15:13,199 --> 01:15:16,359 and sometimes he was he could be very, very funny. Just I was 955 01:15:16,479 --> 01:15:21,119 just reading some of the kind of highlights of his columns over the years, 956 01:15:21,119 --> 01:15:28,720 and The Spectator compiled this kind of sort of almost the greatest hit compendium on 957 01:15:28,760 --> 01:15:31,359 the website, and I was reading them last night. Some of them just 958 01:15:31,399 --> 01:15:35,720 had me rolling about. It was so funny. But I'll tell you, 959 01:15:35,760 --> 01:15:40,880 I'll tell I do have a quite I do have a great Jeremy Clark anecdote, 960 01:15:41,680 --> 01:15:45,680 which is I was at the Spectator party one year and we got chatting 961 01:15:45,840 --> 01:15:49,680 in the garden and you know, around the bottle of whiskey, and he 962 01:15:49,760 --> 01:15:55,720 said, Toby, mate, it's something I've never told you. When I 963 01:15:55,840 --> 01:15:59,720 when I'll tell you the story how I became a writer, I said, 964 01:16:00,000 --> 01:16:02,960 tastic, tell me the story. Said So when I was I had a 965 01:16:03,000 --> 01:16:09,680 pretty checkered career, left school with two O levels, M I got done 966 01:16:09,720 --> 01:16:14,840 for breaking and entering. You know, yeah, my life was going nowhere. 967 01:16:15,199 --> 01:16:16,439 But I wanted to be a writer. That's what I really wanted to 968 01:16:16,479 --> 01:16:20,520 do. That was my dream, becoming a writer. Anyone was hitchhiking from 969 01:16:20,800 --> 01:16:25,159 I think it was us. I was like sumhere in Devon Exeter, and 970 01:16:25,239 --> 01:16:29,439 this very nice lady picked me up. A single lady quite unusual if you're 971 01:16:29,560 --> 01:16:31,880 hitching, you know, single ladyes don'tusually pick up many look like me. 972 01:16:32,359 --> 01:16:34,920 Anyway, she picked me up and she gave me a lift to London and 973 01:16:34,960 --> 01:16:38,000 she asked me what I wanted to do, and I said, well, 974 01:16:38,359 --> 01:16:40,720 what I really want to do is I want to be a writer. But 975 01:16:40,760 --> 01:16:43,039 I don't know how to go about it. I mean, I've got no 976 01:16:43,159 --> 01:16:46,000 qualifications, I don't know anyone in that world. I never really tried to 977 01:16:46,039 --> 01:16:48,920 do it properly, but that's what I really want to do. And this 978 01:16:49,159 --> 01:16:53,800 lady she said to me she was a writer, and she said, you 979 01:16:53,840 --> 01:16:56,239 know, you don't need any qualifications. She just got to do it. 980 01:16:56,279 --> 01:16:59,279 You just sit down and do it. You know what's stopping you? You 981 01:16:59,319 --> 01:17:00,760 know anyone can do it, and if you want, I can introduce you 982 01:17:00,840 --> 01:17:04,920 A couple of people could be helpful. And you know, she convinced me 983 01:17:04,960 --> 01:17:09,159 that to ever go. If she hadn't convinced me, I never would have 984 01:17:09,159 --> 01:17:11,520 done it, and I wouldn't be if I can't picked me up, I 985 01:17:11,560 --> 01:17:14,319 would have had a totally different life and do you know what, soby never 986 01:17:14,319 --> 01:17:17,039 told her this before. That woman was your mum. That was your mom. 987 01:17:17,079 --> 01:17:19,760 That was and it wasn't a joke. It was my mum. He 988 01:17:19,840 --> 01:17:23,479 described. Believe it. At first, I was like, really, are 989 01:17:23,520 --> 01:17:27,439 you sure? He described the car and my mum did drive at that time 990 01:17:27,560 --> 01:17:30,039 from Devon to London, would often pick up hitchhiker's and she was a writer 991 01:17:30,119 --> 01:17:34,119 and exactly the kind of thing that she would have said to someone like that. 992 01:17:34,720 --> 01:17:42,880 So, yeah, my mom, what a nice story. That's pretty 993 01:17:42,920 --> 01:17:45,439 lovely. Well we'll end it there. That's that we cannot be could to 994 01:17:45,479 --> 01:17:47,600 proven that. That's good. Well, we've got one more message, James, 995 01:17:47,600 --> 01:17:51,840 from you. We have we have which is quite appropriate given the subject 996 01:17:51,840 --> 01:17:57,680 matter. It absolutely is. 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The more information about live in care, please go to 1004 01:18:27,479 --> 01:18:31,319 the Live in Care Company dot co dot UK or ring us for a no 1005 01:18:31,479 --> 01:18:38,960 obligation conversation on one one eight nine one four five three double ow. We 1006 01:18:39,000 --> 01:18:44,439 will be happy to help. Good Okay, James, We will go next 1007 01:18:44,439 --> 01:19:08,079 week, all right, say then bye bye. Ricochet joined the conversation