WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:04.360 In this segment, we turned too Peru, where yet another child sexual abuse 2 00:00:04.400 --> 00:00:11.359 scandal involving the Catholic Church highlights the gross immunization that this organization enjoys from law 3 00:00:11.439 --> 00:00:16.879 enforcement authorities year after year, decade after decade, we learn about how sexual 4 00:00:16.920 --> 00:00:21.839 abusers in the Catholic Church are protected by upper level Catholic leadership, and how 5 00:00:21.839 --> 00:00:27.239 abusers are allowed to remain in service to their churches where they can continue to 6 00:00:27.280 --> 00:00:31.920 pray on children. Why has the Catholic Church not been shut down and are 7 00:00:32.000 --> 00:00:36.240 its leaders still allowed to operate unsupervised in the presence of children. I think 8 00:00:36.280 --> 00:00:40.320 so if this were any other entity, a daycare center, sports team, 9 00:00:40.439 --> 00:00:44.479 karate school, or just a school in general, would they be treated with 10 00:00:44.520 --> 00:00:49.359 the same laissez faire approach as the Catholic Church. Why does the Catholic Church 11 00:00:49.600 --> 00:00:54.079 get a pass, Infidel, Perhaps you can shed some light on specifically what 12 00:00:54.240 --> 00:01:00.320 is happening in this Peruvian congregation. Well, this particular group has been under 13 00:01:00.320 --> 00:01:04.959 a very close microscope, supposedly by the Vatican, attempting to rehabilitate them but 14 00:01:06.480 --> 00:01:11.239 a relatively small order, and from their beginnings they have had a history of 15 00:01:11.359 --> 00:01:18.400 sexual abuse. Literally from their founder. Now, this archbishop's early resignation doesn't 16 00:01:18.719 --> 00:01:22.519 clarify anything or give us any motive. You know, again, the Catholic 17 00:01:22.640 --> 00:01:29.319 Church, it's prioritizing its image and rather than addressing any allegations of abuse as 18 00:01:29.319 --> 00:01:32.560 I said, that have been going on for over a decade in this particular 19 00:01:32.599 --> 00:01:36.439 location. Now their founder, it goes back to him, even to the 20 00:01:36.480 --> 00:01:41.640 point of having animals bite people and physically and mentally abusing people as well. 21 00:01:42.200 --> 00:01:49.519 They've been linked to a violent gang land graving scheme. So really we don't 22 00:01:49.599 --> 00:01:53.000 know what the reason for this particular resignation. It was unexpected, it was 23 00:01:53.040 --> 00:01:57.000 early, but once again the Catholic Church remained silent and let you figure it 24 00:01:57.040 --> 00:02:00.719 out for yourself. You know, the Bible says a good tree cannot a 25 00:02:00.799 --> 00:02:05.840 good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, and neither can a corrupt tree bring 26 00:02:05.920 --> 00:02:08.840 forth good fruit. I think that we've had over a decade to judge this 27 00:02:08.919 --> 00:02:14.840 group both by its fruits and by its founders, and the right choice is 28 00:02:14.879 --> 00:02:17.680 to shut them down. Now, I don't think that's what's going to happen 29 00:02:17.719 --> 00:02:21.520 in this case. I think we're going to see this attempt to continue. 30 00:02:21.719 --> 00:02:23.280 But you know, that's just my opinion. I just wanted to say. 31 00:02:23.319 --> 00:02:29.520 This story comes from ap News by Nicole Winfield and Franklin Riseano on April second, 32 00:02:29.599 --> 00:02:31.520 twenty twenty four, And I guess we'll just have to wait and see 33 00:02:31.520 --> 00:02:35.680 where it goes from here. But with the history they have, the answer 34 00:02:35.719 --> 00:02:39.039 should be simple. Yeah, it's it's gross, it's disgusting. It's probably 35 00:02:39.120 --> 00:02:44.919 the worst thing, the worst crime that you can commit. Eli what does 36 00:02:44.960 --> 00:02:51.919 this scandal say about the future of this church? Well, one of the 37 00:02:52.000 --> 00:02:57.719 authors of the report that made the allegations against the Sodaitium, as well as 38 00:02:57.719 --> 00:03:05.479 Fando Figari, the found under and jose Gourdn the artificially who's stepped down pedros 39 00:03:05.479 --> 00:03:12.400 Alinas is actually reports having been a victim of Figari's earlier before, and seems 40 00:03:12.400 --> 00:03:16.599 to believe that Agudun's resignation is unprecedented and that it should indicate the possible upcoming 41 00:03:16.599 --> 00:03:20.759 closure of this odal medium. And I think that kind of sounds like it 42 00:03:20.759 --> 00:03:23.599 would be a nice result. I mean, there's so much abuse going on 43 00:03:23.719 --> 00:03:28.159 there. This is an organization with a bad history and a part of a 44 00:03:28.960 --> 00:03:32.000 that is part of a larger organization with a worse history, and it doesn't 45 00:03:32.000 --> 00:03:35.639 seem like anything good is coming out of there. They're not really doing any 46 00:03:35.639 --> 00:03:38.840 good, providing any benefit that we can't get otherwise, and they're doing some 47 00:03:38.000 --> 00:03:44.319 harm that we're not getting otherwise. So good riddance as far as I'm concerned. 48 00:03:44.439 --> 00:03:47.560 Yeah, you know, the Pope is weaited on this actually, and 49 00:03:49.080 --> 00:03:53.039 Scott in this article, the Pope was quoted as saying, loving the church 50 00:03:53.439 --> 00:03:58.919 also means having the courage to make difficult and painful decisions, always keeping in 51 00:03:58.919 --> 00:04:02.439 mind the good of the church and not of ourselves. But what decision could 52 00:04:02.439 --> 00:04:05.520 he be talking about that's so painful? Well, first of all, full 53 00:04:05.560 --> 00:04:10.240 disclosure here that we should note that that was he was quoting Pope Benedict and 54 00:04:10.280 --> 00:04:16.720 not necessarily not trances and so and uh, Pope Benedict who also retired early 55 00:04:17.079 --> 00:04:21.920 under you know, suspicious conditions, and so it's it's uh, I mean, 56 00:04:21.920 --> 00:04:26.560 And we also need to make sure that we point out to that, 57 00:04:27.399 --> 00:04:30.920 you know, there we want to withhold judgment to some extent, although it's 58 00:04:30.000 --> 00:04:34.600 very difficult in this case. The Catholic Church has a long history of of 59 00:04:34.720 --> 00:04:40.639 cover ups of you know, moving priests around and and specifically what you're asking 60 00:04:40.680 --> 00:04:45.079 about, what type of of what type of decisions are they are they asking 61 00:04:45.120 --> 00:04:47.160 they're asked they're being asked to put the good of the church above their own 62 00:04:47.199 --> 00:04:50.360 good, Okay, And and when I hear that, I think, we 63 00:04:50.439 --> 00:04:54.920 don't want to be smirched the bad name of the church. We don't want 64 00:04:54.959 --> 00:04:59.439 to be smirched the bad the reputation of the church. We don't we want 65 00:04:59.519 --> 00:05:03.480 even if even at our sacrifice of ourselves. You know, we're sorry you 66 00:05:03.600 --> 00:05:08.399 were abused, but you know, if if it comes out, what's gonna 67 00:05:08.439 --> 00:05:11.000 what's that going to tell about the church? And so we need to be 68 00:05:11.079 --> 00:05:15.360 careful that we need to be careful that that we're that we're viewing that that 69 00:05:15.399 --> 00:05:20.839 we're listening to these accusations, and that we're we're taking consideration into the history. 70 00:05:21.000 --> 00:05:25.319 And so I don't know, to me, it's just it's just it 71 00:05:25.439 --> 00:05:28.240 just rubs me the wrong way. It's it doesn't pass the sniff test, 72 00:05:28.439 --> 00:05:32.600 right. It's putting the priority of the church above of above abuse victims. 73 00:05:32.600 --> 00:05:36.040 That seems you know, downright despicable to me. And then that merit that 74 00:05:36.160 --> 00:05:41.240 very well could be part of uh, you know why Pope Benedict left left 75 00:05:41.279 --> 00:05:45.560 office, so you know, it's it's it's interesting and difficult at the same 76 00:05:45.600 --> 00:05:48.839 time. Well, I think Pope Benedict is, you know, a suitable 77 00:05:48.879 --> 00:05:55.040 figure for this story, because Pope Benedict was actually accused of moving priests around 78 00:05:55.240 --> 00:06:00.480 exactly. I believe there were four different cases of child sexual salt in churches 79 00:06:00.519 --> 00:06:04.319 in Europe. I don't remember exactly which country, but in any case, 80 00:06:04.439 --> 00:06:12.519 he moved these offenders around instead of facing any kind of backlash. So I 81 00:06:12.600 --> 00:06:16.240 just want to kind of pivot to infidel and talk about some of these some 82 00:06:16.360 --> 00:06:19.720 of these processes, if you can even call them that, that the church 83 00:06:19.800 --> 00:06:24.879 undertakes. Now, this organization that we're talking about was paid a visit by 84 00:06:24.920 --> 00:06:30.360 a Catholic inspector who was supposed to be the premier Catholic expert in child sexual 85 00:06:30.360 --> 00:06:33.920 abuse. First of all, how the hell does any organization, any religious 86 00:06:34.000 --> 00:06:41.160 organization, need a sexual abuse expert on their faculty. That I might be 87 00:06:41.199 --> 00:06:44.319 a topic for a different discussion, but I mean, can you elaborate on 88 00:06:44.319 --> 00:06:46.879 this visit that this church had. What does it say about the Catholic Church 89 00:06:46.920 --> 00:06:51.600 to even have someone with this distinction and what did this person even do Oh 90 00:06:53.040 --> 00:06:58.319 yeah, I have to agree with you that whenever your organization has an expert 91 00:06:58.439 --> 00:07:00.959 on child sexual abuse, the only thing I could think of is either some 92 00:07:01.079 --> 00:07:06.160 type of therapy group or a prosecutor. Outside of that, I can't imagine 93 00:07:06.160 --> 00:07:11.879 why you would need an expert on the topic and what exactly that means. 94 00:07:12.000 --> 00:07:15.639 And knowing that, but at the same time, knowing that they have a 95 00:07:15.759 --> 00:07:20.759 fund set aside for the defense of people who are accused of sexual abuse, 96 00:07:21.040 --> 00:07:26.639 it's not surprising that they'd want to be able to maximize their dollars in this 97 00:07:26.720 --> 00:07:33.680 situation and have somebody who makes those determinations. Whatever that could possibly be is 98 00:07:33.720 --> 00:07:40.079 obviously going to be just like the quote you mentioned from Benedict of Catholic Church 99 00:07:40.199 --> 00:07:44.560 first. So with that type of mentality, I have little doubt that any 100 00:07:44.680 --> 00:07:49.600 Vatican representation that's an expert on child abuse is an expert on maximizing what's in 101 00:07:49.639 --> 00:07:54.079 the self interest of the church. Now, supposedly they came over in July 102 00:07:54.480 --> 00:07:58.279 and they asked some questions and told everybody, yeah, everything's good, We're 103 00:07:58.439 --> 00:08:01.720 just asked some question. Essentially sounded like they were just trying to you know, 104 00:08:01.839 --> 00:08:05.639 dot I's and cross t's. But you know when the guy like that 105 00:08:05.680 --> 00:08:09.720 comes to town that there's something going on, and of course the heads roll. 106 00:08:11.000 --> 00:08:13.079 I think what they're trying to do is just let this guy take the 107 00:08:13.160 --> 00:08:16.480 fall and move on. And I think they're going to continue to attempt to 108 00:08:16.519 --> 00:08:20.439 rehabilitate this. They've got ten years into this, and at some point you 109 00:08:20.560 --> 00:08:26.079 got to realize you can't get rid of every order and every group in the 110 00:08:26.120 --> 00:08:31.279 Catholic Church that has somebody who's committed to sexual assault, or you'll shut the 111 00:08:31.319 --> 00:08:33.399 whole damn thing down. And since they're not going to do that at some 112 00:08:33.519 --> 00:08:37.519 point, and this is a small order, I think they're just saying, 113 00:08:37.519 --> 00:08:39.960 you know what, let's go ahead and push this through. Let's kick this 114 00:08:41.000 --> 00:08:43.440 one guy out and say, okay, we fixed everything. Everything's good, 115 00:08:43.519 --> 00:08:48.519 everything's wonderful now, mission accomplished, moving right along, And I think that's 116 00:08:48.559 --> 00:08:52.960 really what we're more likely to see here. I hope that the gentleman who 117 00:08:52.960 --> 00:08:56.639 wrote the article is right and they do get shut down, but I think 118 00:08:56.679 --> 00:09:00.399 this is business as usual for the Catholic Church. Sure crime sending kids going 119 00:09:00.480 --> 00:09:03.440 to keep on going well, and they are taking some actions to at least 120 00:09:03.559 --> 00:09:09.000 give the impression that they're in some kind of compliance or doing some kind of 121 00:09:09.039 --> 00:09:13.039 internal investigation. But they have taken the offensive, haven't they, Eli, 122 00:09:13.159 --> 00:09:18.519 I mean, they have been accused by people. What actions has this organization 123 00:09:18.679 --> 00:09:24.279 taken to face their accusers. Yeah, so not the organization itself, but 124 00:09:24.480 --> 00:09:31.240 the authors of the reports. So Pedros Alnas and Palo Gas. Actually, 125 00:09:31.399 --> 00:09:35.759 uh, it was jose Agudun who filed a lawsuit against the two of them 126 00:09:35.919 --> 00:09:41.480 for defamation. It was for different yeah, for different events or for different 127 00:09:41.519 --> 00:09:46.200 writings, for different articles. Essentially, So Pedro Selenas had written about Agurun 128 00:09:46.399 --> 00:09:52.720 being involved with the land grabbing schemes, that Infidel has talked about forcing out 129 00:09:52.759 --> 00:09:58.120 peasants as the article described them to my out the land. And then Palagaz 130 00:09:58.240 --> 00:10:01.440 has been reporting on this type of ship for years, so she's no stranger 131 00:10:01.480 --> 00:10:05.320 to being, you know, to these lawsuits. But she had written and 132 00:10:05.440 --> 00:10:09.720 I apologize because I left out that Pedro Salinas also accused that Josea gourn had 133 00:10:09.919 --> 00:10:13.919 known everything about the abuses committed by Fernanda Fagari. So it doesn't seem like 134 00:10:15.240 --> 00:10:20.440 they're accusing Agurin himself of the physical and sexual abuses, just that hey, 135 00:10:20.519 --> 00:10:24.320 he's he knew everything about this, and also he's doing this other really shady 136 00:10:24.320 --> 00:10:26.799 shade over here, and I don't have it up and don't remember quite what 137 00:10:26.840 --> 00:10:31.200 it was for that Pealo guys had been sued, but he had filed a 138 00:10:31.240 --> 00:10:35.240 lawsuit against her as well. Both in twenty nineteen. He even faced pressure 139 00:10:35.320 --> 00:10:39.799 from the Peruvian Church to drop the lawsuit, and so he did so that 140 00:10:39.879 --> 00:10:43.279 lawsuit didn't nothing came of that that the suit was dropped, and that's kind 141 00:10:43.279 --> 00:10:48.039 of just where it landed. But as Infidel said, I am I am 142 00:10:48.320 --> 00:10:50.159 all with, you know, completely with you know, Pedro and Paula, 143 00:10:50.240 --> 00:10:54.879 and I really kind of just hope that this does get this solididium sot of 144 00:10:54.960 --> 00:10:58.240 lydium just kind of shut down and I stopped some of this abuse, hopefully 145 00:10:58.240 --> 00:11:03.840 at least. Scott, when we talk about some of these policies or these 146 00:11:03.840 --> 00:11:07.840 processes that the church has taken in response to these accusations, what's your take 147 00:11:07.919 --> 00:11:13.279 on how authentic they are. Are these attempts at transparency just a facade or 148 00:11:13.559 --> 00:11:16.639 are they trying to be genuine? Ray? Well, that's the million dollar 149 00:11:16.759 --> 00:11:18.639 question, isn't it right? It's it's you know, are they are they 150 00:11:18.679 --> 00:11:24.000 being legit here? And and on one hand, you know, I'm happy 151 00:11:24.039 --> 00:11:26.559 to see that there seems to be at least some attempts to appear accountable. 152 00:11:26.720 --> 00:11:35.360 And I may be overly pessimistic here, I'm trying to be cautiously pessimistic. 153 00:11:35.799 --> 00:11:39.039 You know, Like we said before that they they've definitely had excuse me, 154 00:11:39.360 --> 00:11:43.240 they've definitely set up set themselves up here, right. They have a history 155 00:11:43.399 --> 00:11:48.559 of the cover up, of the placing the good of the church above the 156 00:11:48.559 --> 00:11:52.480 good of the parishioners and that kind of thing, you know. But I'd 157 00:11:52.519 --> 00:11:56.440 like to see what's going to come out, like in another ten years, 158 00:11:56.440 --> 00:11:58.559 another twenty years, another fifty years down the line. Wants that statue to 159 00:11:58.600 --> 00:12:01.399 limitate has passed, right, you know, show me the money. We 160 00:12:01.440 --> 00:12:05.559 see some accountability here. I want to see a little bit more transparency. 161 00:12:05.600 --> 00:12:09.519 I want to see some more involvement of the police. If there's crimes happening 162 00:12:09.519 --> 00:12:13.759 here, if there is abuse happening here, I want to see more actions 163 00:12:13.919 --> 00:12:18.200 being taken place, being taken by the church hierarchy, by the by the 164 00:12:18.279 --> 00:12:24.879 higher ups in the church, to invote to bring to judgment to earthly judgment. 165 00:12:24.519 --> 00:12:28.600 You know, the people that are that are perpetrating these crimes. I 166 00:12:28.639 --> 00:12:33.720 mean, there's horrendous crimes being committed against human beings here, and and it's 167 00:12:33.879 --> 00:12:37.960 it's what it makes it more horrendous that it's a violation of this of this 168 00:12:39.000 --> 00:12:41.759 holy trust that they're that they're putting forth here. It's unwarranted trust, but 169 00:12:41.840 --> 00:12:46.720 it's it's still there. So you know, I, I, like I 170 00:12:46.759 --> 00:12:50.440 said, I'm being cautiously pessimistic. I if you want to ask me to 171 00:12:50.960 --> 00:12:54.399 put my money down. I don't think they're being I don't think they're being 172 00:12:54.440 --> 00:12:58.639 authentic here, but you know, I have to reserve my my judgment if 173 00:12:58.679 --> 00:13:01.399 I want to be a good skeptic, to make sure that I'm not jumping 174 00:13:01.399 --> 00:13:07.360 to conclusions just because their position is against mine. But you know, it 175 00:13:07.399 --> 00:13:11.200 would go a long way for them to involve the authorities, and I'm talking 176 00:13:11.240 --> 00:13:13.759 about the police authorities, and that that would that would that would do a 177 00:13:13.759 --> 00:13:16.840 lot to put my mind at ease. I guess yeah. And I think 178 00:13:16.960 --> 00:13:20.799 this speaks to the larger picture where the church is just not held to the 179 00:13:20.840 --> 00:13:24.440 same standards as everybody else. We've covered this, you know, other segments 180 00:13:24.440 --> 00:13:30.679 we've covered this in recent weeks. They don't disclose or make financial disclosures. 181 00:13:30.840 --> 00:13:35.279 Nobody has any idea where their money's going. We know that they are embezzling 182 00:13:35.679 --> 00:13:39.399 billions of dollars every year. We have no idea what's happening to accused perpetrators 183 00:13:39.399 --> 00:13:43.759 of children. We oftentimes never see them again. And we do know that 184 00:13:43.799 --> 00:13:48.840 the church has a fund that protects these people, which is probably more asinine 185 00:13:48.879 --> 00:13:52.679 than the fact that they have a expert on child sexual assault. But you 186 00:13:52.679 --> 00:13:56.840 know, where do we see this getting better? What are some of the 187 00:13:56.879 --> 00:14:01.480 avenues that can help this along? And infidel on that point, I kind 188 00:14:01.480 --> 00:14:03.759 of want to turn to this idea of rehabilitation that you were talking about. 189 00:14:03.840 --> 00:14:09.039 Could you elaborate a little bit more what exactly do you mean by rehabilitation for 190 00:14:09.080 --> 00:14:13.200 this organization or for the Catholic Church in general. I think that for the 191 00:14:13.279 --> 00:14:20.360 Catholic Church in general, you would need something along the lines of bottoms up, 192 00:14:20.559 --> 00:14:24.639 opening of the books, opening the doors, and showing some level of 193 00:14:24.639 --> 00:14:28.720 accountability. As Scott said, first, you'd have to welcome the police in 194 00:14:30.120 --> 00:14:33.000 and really attempt to clean house. I have to admit that it's not something 195 00:14:33.000 --> 00:14:37.840 that I would expect to ever happen. I think that well, we're more 196 00:14:37.000 --> 00:14:43.480 likely to see are attempts and some of them may be honest attempts at rehabilitation 197 00:14:45.080 --> 00:14:48.440 of changing the way things are done. I just think that there's so much 198 00:14:48.519 --> 00:14:54.720 that goes into this idea of automatic trust, this idea of this holy trust. 199 00:14:56.159 --> 00:15:00.639 Whether one of you mentioned earlier that it brings such an ea ease of 200 00:15:00.720 --> 00:15:05.799 abuse that I think it invites exactly the wrong people for that type of situation. 201 00:15:07.120 --> 00:15:11.039 So I don't think that's something that can be fixed. Maybe it can 202 00:15:11.080 --> 00:15:15.519 be mitigated in some ways, But right now, I think we see the 203 00:15:15.600 --> 00:15:20.840 term rehabilitation pretty much being a term thrown around by the Catholic Church to certain 204 00:15:20.879 --> 00:15:24.720 things because they're trying to it's about image control more than it is anything that 205 00:15:24.960 --> 00:15:31.480 you or I would see as rehabilitation. So time and again we see accounts 206 00:15:31.600 --> 00:15:35.879 of sexual predators in the church, not just the Catholic Church, but largely 207 00:15:37.120 --> 00:15:43.360 in the Catholic Church, going into confinement or being imprisoned, etc. But 208 00:15:43.720 --> 00:15:48.360 also being rehired. And I've talked about this before that you can actually track 209 00:15:48.399 --> 00:15:54.240 this stuff down, and I believe I have a website here abuse lawsuit dot 210 00:15:54.279 --> 00:15:58.639 com can tell you which congregations in the country have been accused and what has 211 00:15:58.679 --> 00:16:03.639 happened of the accusers. We see them come back and be reinstated. Eli, 212 00:16:03.679 --> 00:16:07.279 I kind of want to just get your opinion, and I think I 213 00:16:07.360 --> 00:16:10.200 know the answer to this. But you know, with all this talk about 214 00:16:10.240 --> 00:16:15.960 rehabilitation, I mean, is this something that is rehabilitation for the individual something 215 00:16:15.000 --> 00:16:19.200 that's possible. I mean, should somebody in this, should we be surprised 216 00:16:19.240 --> 00:16:23.159 that they're being reinstated, should they be allowed? Can we ever trust them 217 00:16:23.159 --> 00:16:26.720 again? I mean, what what do you kind of take away from this? 218 00:16:26.080 --> 00:16:30.840 I was when you know, Scott was Sharon Hnstompson. As you responded, 219 00:16:30.879 --> 00:16:34.519 I sat here thinking like it really like you mentioned the double standard Jimmy, 220 00:16:34.559 --> 00:16:38.399 that churchers are held to that others. If you could think of any 221 00:16:38.480 --> 00:16:42.720 other organization where you point to the CEO and you're like, that guy's fucking 222 00:16:42.799 --> 00:16:45.559 kids, and that sounds really vulgar. Some people are like, why do 223 00:16:45.559 --> 00:16:48.799 you have to say it that way, because there's nothing fucking nice about it. 224 00:16:48.799 --> 00:16:53.720 It's vulgar, it's fucking horrible. He's they're fucking kids, and and 225 00:16:53.720 --> 00:16:57.919 and the police aren't getting involved. You're going to the manager and you're saying, 226 00:16:57.960 --> 00:17:03.200 these guys are fucking kids and they're not getting involved. Why is that 227 00:17:03.320 --> 00:17:07.119 happening? And this idea of rehabilitation like, oh well, let's just make 228 00:17:07.119 --> 00:17:10.559 them better and put them back. No, what are you talking about? 229 00:17:10.880 --> 00:17:15.039 Like, there is no other circumstance in which you would go to a victim 230 00:17:15.200 --> 00:17:18.400 and say, you know, we're sorry that this happened. We're going to 231 00:17:18.440 --> 00:17:21.880 make sure your your abuser is better, and then we're going to put them 232 00:17:21.960 --> 00:17:25.039 right back in front of you for you know, until one of you leaves. 233 00:17:25.240 --> 00:17:29.440 Yeah, Like, that's so crazy. Pretty much a rhetorical question, 234 00:17:29.480 --> 00:17:32.279 and I think you gave me the response. But my point is, can 235 00:17:32.359 --> 00:17:36.640 anybody watching this show? Can any but any of our viewers who are followers 236 00:17:36.680 --> 00:17:41.279 of the Catholic faith answer differently than the way that Eli just answered And I 237 00:17:41.279 --> 00:17:45.079 would be appalled if you thought that you could. And so this is something 238 00:17:45.119 --> 00:17:49.799 that we need to really hold a microscope to, just like we do when, 239 00:17:51.160 --> 00:17:53.519 for example, we had a basketball coach a few years ago that said 240 00:17:53.599 --> 00:18:00.000 some disparaging terms starts African Americans fired. Ellen DeGeneres was a not being nice 241 00:18:00.000 --> 00:18:07.039 to people show canceled, but pastors, priests assaulting children still get to go 242 00:18:07.160 --> 00:18:10.240 on living their life. And so I kind of want to end there, 243 00:18:10.240 --> 00:18:12.200 but not without getting final thoughts from each of our panelists. I want to 244 00:18:12.240 --> 00:18:17.839 start with Scott and move to Infidel and then Eli. So Scott closing comments, 245 00:18:18.119 --> 00:18:22.519 what I think has to happen here is kind of contradictory, two different 246 00:18:22.519 --> 00:18:25.279 things. There has to be a bottom up movement, right, the rank 247 00:18:25.319 --> 00:18:30.119 and file Catholics has to stop accepting this, Okay, this is not okay, 248 00:18:30.160 --> 00:18:32.400 this kind of behavior, this kind of cover up, this kind of 249 00:18:33.559 --> 00:18:37.119 we can watch our we can police ourselves. You know who's watching the watchmen? 250 00:18:37.400 --> 00:18:41.039 Right, And so there has to be a grassroots movement, But there 251 00:18:41.039 --> 00:18:44.440 also has to be a change coming from the top down. We talked about 252 00:18:44.440 --> 00:18:48.480 this Pope saying, or Pope Benedict saying, keep in mind the good of 253 00:18:48.519 --> 00:18:52.079 the church above the above ourselves. Okay, that has to change. Okay, 254 00:18:52.119 --> 00:18:55.160 So there has to be those two changes. A grassroots, bottom up 255 00:18:55.200 --> 00:18:57.759 movement, We're not going to put up with this anymore, and then real 256 00:18:59.039 --> 00:19:03.039 legitimate change coming from the top down. Absolutely absolutely Infidel. I think that 257 00:19:03.200 --> 00:19:10.160 the only way that the Catholic Church changes is when the Catholic Church becomes irrelevant. 258 00:19:11.000 --> 00:19:15.920 I think that they're so entrenched in literally thousands of years of bad ideas 259 00:19:15.960 --> 00:19:21.079 combined into a box and with a lot of money behind it. So it's 260 00:19:21.119 --> 00:19:25.680 not going to happen anytime soon. But I just have a hard time seeing 261 00:19:26.359 --> 00:19:30.079 them make any meaningful changes. And you're right, though, this isn't something 262 00:19:30.119 --> 00:19:34.319 limited to just the Catholic Church. It's in every organization because once again that 263 00:19:34.400 --> 00:19:40.440 presumption of holy you know, expectation of you can trust this person, and 264 00:19:40.519 --> 00:19:44.640 that is really what has to change. Sure, Eli, this is, 265 00:19:44.720 --> 00:19:45.880 you know, one of those things that I think about when I talk a 266 00:19:45.920 --> 00:19:51.440 lot about how I think religion causes harm that without providing any novel benefit. 267 00:19:51.480 --> 00:19:55.599 And this isn't you know, unique harm. This isn't unique to Catholicism, 268 00:19:55.640 --> 00:20:00.240 with the Catholic Church or religion in general, but it is is harm that 269 00:20:00.319 --> 00:20:04.160 exists and there's no benefit coming from the organization that's providing it. So it's 270 00:20:04.240 --> 00:20:08.720 one of those things I tend to agree with. Part of what Infidel said 271 00:20:08.759 --> 00:20:12.400 is that as long as this organization is there, I don't think this is 272 00:20:12.440 --> 00:20:18.440 going to change. This is going to continue happening until enough people are unless 273 00:20:18.599 --> 00:20:22.200 enough people within the organization are tired enough of it that they make the change. 274 00:20:22.359 --> 00:20:25.519 Just like Scott said, from the bottom up, in the top down 275 00:20:25.519 --> 00:20:29.359 that I just don't see that happening. Yeah, yeah, I would ask 276 00:20:29.440 --> 00:20:33.119 my viewers what if it were your child, would you still give the organization 277 00:20:33.279 --> 00:20:37.119 money? Would you still trust them? And why are we just doing that 278 00:20:37.200 --> 00:20:41.559 openly and not holding them accountable the way that we hold each other accountable. 279 00:20:41.720 --> 00:20:44.319 So this is something that we come across a lot on this show.