What is Kracklak and Hardland Knox. Listen, there's I M Damn Valley coming
at you once more without my fantabulous co host Adam Fromwell. The team look
Ahead train continues to roll on though, and I'm excited to get to the
Cleveland Cavaliers with Justin Rowan. He has been on this podcast a few times
before. He is the co host of the Chase Down Pod, which is
officially under the umbrella of the Cleveland Cavaliers Network. Very impressive. Had a
great conversation with him. Be sure to follow him on Twitter at Cavzanada.
That's at c A V s A n A DA. That's at c A
V s A n A DA. Before we dive into a bunch of interesting
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Hardwood Knox. We will come up subscribe there without further delay. Let's get
to a deep, deep, deep dive into the Cleveland Avaliers twenty two season
and beyond with Justin Rohan. Justin, welcome back to the Hardwin Knox podcast.
Thank you so much for the return. I guess we should call it.
We are here to talk Cleveland Cavaliers, as everyone knows by now.
But first and foremost, the most important question, how the hell are you
doing. I'm doing well. I think when people think the Calves and the
Return, they are going to think of my appearance on this podcast that that's
probably going to be the thing that comes up to the top of their minds.
It is an honor to be back. I appreciate you having me on.
It's the return and soon like that's if you think of justin whenever you're
want to hear those terms. You are the first person before we recorded to
get yourself hands up. You smacked your face because we're both tired. I
think you're the first person to do that before the podcast. So I'm excited
to see to see where this lead is given your prerecording ritual. Yeah,
I slapped on the face. I didn't put on the war pain just yet.
But we'll see how this podcast goes. There's still time for it.
So the Calves, their offseason was like m I eventful. It was just
I guess I don't know what to make of their off season, and so
I'm just curious to what you're thinking about. If anything surprised you were,
what thoughts you're really harping on about their off season heading into the regular season.
Yeah, it was certainly an interesting one. Obviously, jumping up in
the lottery and getting Evan Mobley at three kick things off, and that was
exciting Going into this off season, I think one of the biggest needs was
the clear lack of a backup point guard. Last season. They went in
with Dante Exim and Matthew Delavadova. Delhi got a concussion in the preseason,
Exam got hurt right away, so you were left in a situation where Damian
Dotson Broderick Thomas were kind of the primary backup point guards. Jetty Osman played
some point guard at times where Garland and Sexton were both out of the lineup,
and you had no point guards playing at all, so you got point
Drummond and point McGee and all all these other weird variations of the lineup.
So getting Ricky Rubio, I thought was a really really big addition. Kind
of hurts to give up one of the few wings that they had in Torrean
prints, but I do think Rubio addresses a bigger need, and with Kevin
Pangos, you got a pretty solid third string point guard. Obviously first team
All Year League last year, good three point straight or good floor general.
I like that addition, I guess my one disappointment looking at this offseason is
just that they were not able to really bring in an experienced wing option,
like I think a three four wing when Joe Ingles was reportedly on the trade
market, like that was a guy that was at the top of my wish
list because I think a playmaking wing, someone with size that can shoot that
can help be a release valve for some of the younger players, especially the
guards, would have been really helpful. But overall, I think given the
lack of flexibility they had from a salary cap standpoint, they came away pretty
well with this off season. I do think that this is an improved roster.
Yeah, I think it's easy to look at the holes, but you
also have to look at what what were they supposed to do? And I
think the Ricky Rubio audition is huge, and as you mentioned, like just
having a backup point guard who can just help me maybe give some toutledge to
Darius Garland, but also help with minutes with Sexton. I don't know enough
about Kevin Pango, but I know enough to know he's intriguing, So I
thought that was great, and then just they weren't fun, like, what
was the playmaking wing? They were just supposed to go out and get right
to the point that you made. I the Evan Mobley pick is the one
I harp on. I would have went personally with Scottie Barnes or Jalen Suggs,
and that wouldn't have changed for me. That being said, I saw
Evan Mobley in Summer League, and in my quest to overreact to everything Summer
League, I fell in love with Evan Mobley. He was a lot better
than Look, I only get shin deep into the draft, so my cake
should be take shouldn't even be taken seriously. That being said, how do
you feel one how much should we expect him to play next to Jared Allen?
And to what do you think of that actual fit insofar as the Calves
are going to try to make that a front court staple. Yeah. I
was going through my old tweets about Evan Mobley and even as far back as
February, I was calling him one B in that draft. I felt he
and Kaide were the one A one B in the draft and to land him
at three, For him to fall to the Cavs at three was something that
really excited me. I think he's going to be the starter. I think
he's going to be the starter at power Forward, which I mean part of
that is the investment they made picking him third. Overall, it seems that
he's really impressed in camp. He's a very good defensive presence, which if
you're starting two six one guards with Garland and Sexton, you're going to struggle
a little bit defensively, and the only way that you can really overcome that
is if you have a really solid defensive front court. I mean Utah is
actually a great example of that because they start two guards six one and under.
Mitchell's not exactly known for his defense, but in theory, Isaac o
Goro, Evan Mobile, Jared Allen, those are defensive players that can help
cover up for that. Now, what I like about starting Mobile is I
do think it actually makes the rotation a little bit easier because you can have
Mobili and Sexton be kind of those first subs out of the game so that
they can work more with the second unit. If you're bringing in Rubio and
Laurie market and off the bench for those two, you have those guys playing
with the starters, and then as you cycle out Garland o'coro and Alan.
You can bring Mobile back into play some center, kind of play that backup
five alongside with Laurie. You have Rubio playing the point guard so Sexton can
stay in his ideal off ball role, and then at the wing you kind
of have a Ish Morgus board of options, whether it's Dylan Windler for shooting,
Mr Stevens for defense, not Jetty Osman for whatever Jetty can bring to
the table. There's not a lot of complete players there, but you at
least got a few flyers that you can take. So I do expect Mobile
to play a fair amount this season. I would put it maybe like twenty
seven minutes at night and split those minutes whether it's with Jared Allen and Laurie
Market and I think he'll primarily be the backup five anytime Alan's off the floor.
I was just laughing before she mentioned Dylan Windler, and I'm not even
sure if he's a real person anymore, based on how a little he's played
in centrical League. But is there any concerns you have about Mobley at the
four? Is it more so offensively more so defensively? I would pay to
see them run a pick and roll with Jared Allen and Evan Mobley. Just
looking at what Evan Mobley did in Summer League, I just wonder when Jared
Allen is the center in those units and looking at what Evan Mobley can do
on offense, if whether the spacing sort of MUCKs him up there. Yeah,
the spacing is a concern, especially when it's alongside Isaaca Coral. Like,
I think there's a lot of basketball like you there. Obviously, Mobile
played a lot of four in college as well alongside his brother, so he's
used to kind of that big, big passing and I think there's opportunity for
that to work. But when you have Isaacle Coral who's not really a threat
to hit a lot of threes, that can get a little bogged down.
I think we saw a little bit of at in the first preseason game against
Chicago. I think Evan Mobley is a four. I think, especially early
on in his career, he's most comfortable on the perimeter. I don't think
he necessarily has the strength of bang Low on the inside or anything like that,
So I don't have concerns with him playing the four, and I think
it can work with Jared Allen, it's just who you have on the perimeter
is going to really define whether or not that work. So the absence of
a real kind of proven wing option at the small four position does make me
a little nervous. But you know, it's not a perfect roster. This
isn't a team that's supposed to be contending. This is a team that probably
will be outside the plan mix but hopes to at least be in that mix
this season. So you're going to have a flawed roster. It's not going
to be perfect, So you're going to make some compromises, and I think
they are going to lean heavily on trying to be a defensive team and getting
out and running when they do get stops. What did you think of the
lowry market in addition, especially knowing that it's not just adding him, paying
him, but also giving up Larry Dance Junior in the process. Yeah,
I think I felt a little better about it after Nance came public and had
mentioned that he had requested a trade that he had wanted to. Now that
they've invested in a number three overall pick at his position, he's not going
to be the starter. He wasn't the starter because of Kevin Love. He
finally got a chance last season but couldn't stay healthy. So it was tough
to see Larry go. But Laurie marken In is a player that I had
wanted to take a flyer on for some time. I was advocating for him
at the trade deadline, as hey, let's see what you got there.
I do think it can work out. And the interesting thing I like about
it is people are split on Evan Mobile. They don't know if he is
going to be kind of that ad like four where yeah, he closes at
the five, but probably plays the most of majority of his minutes at the
four. So if that's the case, yeah, having a center like Jared
Allen's going to help him out along a lot. But as he develops,
if he ends up being a five and if that's the best way to optimize
him, having a stretch big like Laurie markin And is helpful in that situation.
So the fact that you have invested in two bigs, two different looks
that you can throw alongside Evan Mobili to figure out what he naturally works best
with. I think that's a really interesting dynamic to have. And ultimately you
got ninety six minutes between the four and five position, and that's more than
enough time for those three guys as they earn those minutes. I don't expect
them to be eating up all of those minutes this early on. It's going
to take some time with Mobile and Laurie is not exactly a proven player.
But if things start clicking, I do think that there's a way to make
sure that all of those guys are getting the minutes they deserve, if they
in fact end up earning them. This podcast forced me to dig deeper into
this roster obviously, and I don't hate the addition as much as I initially
did. Part of that was Larry answering you're coming out and said that he
might have requested a trade. I do think this team just needs guys who
can get up three points this point and marketing concertainly for that, and also
their front court rotation is just not as crowded as you think it is unless
you're just like in love with you know, you think Kevin Jelly's gonna make
the roster, and you're in love with him, and you know you're dead
set on, okay, we need to give minutes up front to Kevin Love
so it's Taco fall. Yeah, Taco fall. It's easy to see how
they could stagger those three guys and get the plenty of playing time. My
two, I guess my one questions do we see the three of them play
together ever? And then have you seen anything in Marketing's game that makes you
think he has a little bit more to offer on offense other than a floor
spacer. I do think he was given a short shrift in Chicago. The
I think the most experimental we saw him was actually under Jim Boylan where they
were tossing him like late shot clock grenades in the post, which has just
never been his game. So I'm still curious about him, but they also
invested in him like there's a lot more to see from this guy. Yeah.
I think the one area that you would look at, like I was
looking at his profile on beball Index, shout out to those guys. And
the one area that he really excelled is a as a cutter. As someone
off ball, he finishes really well on cuts. And this is somebody that,
throughout his tenure in Chicago never really played with a point guard. He
has never really actually had a point guard. So I think having him kind
of It's interesting because yes, he was traded for Larry Nance Junior, but
in a lot of ways, he's replacing what Kevin Love was supposed to be
on this roster. They needed a stretch for someone that the Guards can play
off of, and Love was just not available for those minutes. In a
lot of ways, Evan Mobley's replacing Larry Nance, while Laurie is replacing Kevin
Love, who happens to still be on the roster. So that's a little
awkward, but that's the way that I at least think of it. So
I think if there's anywhere for him to excel offensively where he hasn't in the
past, it's by better utilizing him off ball as a cutter, finding ways
to get a little creative with the offense, because let's be honest, the
Kav's offense was very vanilla last season, which we're probably going to learn now
that they have a few more weapons. Either that is a function of coaching
or if that was a function of the personnel that was there, because you
can't exactly run a twenty fourteen Spurs offense with Broderick Thomas, Lamar Stevens and
whoever else was healthy last season, so it's it's a chicken or the egg
situation. But I do think pass or fail this season that is going to
be really, really instructive when it comes to team building for the Cavs moving
forward. I didn't throw this in the Allen at centual, but were you
surprised that Jared Allen ended up getting five years and one hundred million? No.
I think when he was first traded to the Calves, the asking price
that he had with Brooklyn was five ninety I believe. And he had really
good chemistry with Darius Garland last season, and I just I wasn't surprised to
see him get the five years, Like when you can lock up a guy
that, yeah, maybe like fringe top ten center, like he probably in
that mix if you're looking at it, just turned twenty three years old,
has chemistry with Garland, who they're incredibly high on it and kind of have
been pushing as the franchise player at least at this point. I'm not surprised
to see them invest in him. Like I've been a big Jared Allen fan.
I'm a believer in his game, So I wasn't surprised to see them
lock up lock him up and get some term out of it. I think
the fifth year got me. I was surprised that it went to a fifth
year. Just give it a big man market. I'm interesting all pans out,
especially THO when they have mobile now and then also invested in marketing.
They also still do have Kevin Love on this roster, who looked like,
look, we all have probably aged a decade or two over the past couple
of years. He looks like he's aged like twenty years and didn't even look
like it was a media day interview. I didn't even know what I was
watching. What do we expect from him this season? Do you even expect
him to finish the year on the roster? Finished the year on the roster,
I'd probably say not. I would imagine that taking a reduced role,
coming in off the bench, playing twelve, fifteen, maybe twenty minutes a
night, depending on whether or not he's playing well like it may be a
way for him to help get back in shape. He looked pretty spry in
preseason, which was nice to see because I actually really felt for Kevin Love
last year. Like the outbursts I think cause everybody to assume he just flat
out like didn't want to be in Cleveland, didn't want to play there,
and he's made it clear that his preference is to play somewhere else. But
at the same time, last season was the closest thing to competitive basketball the
Calves have had, like that first quarter of the season, they were in
the playoff picts or they were playing well, and he wasn't a part of
that. That was his first chance to actually be a part of meaningful basketball,
and his body betrayed him after being healthy for the majority of the previous
season. So I really felt for him in that sense. And now you
have the Calves investing heavily at that position with Laurie marking in and of Immobili,
so everything is trending towards Yeah, this guy isn't going to be on
the Cavs long term. I just don't know what form that's going to take
in the time being, Like, there is still a role for him,
there is still a use for him while he's on the roster. It's just
is he going to buy into the reduced role, the reduced minutes and help
out in the ways that he can. So, to me, that's a
major major question. I just if I had to guess whether it's a John
Wall situation where hey, we're going to just send you home mutually agreed,
and if you're willing to give up money, we can discuss a buy out.
If not, we'll just play things by your and see if there's a
market when you're an expiring contract. So I don't know how that's going to
play out, but if I had to guess he's not on the roster by
the end of the season, I felt for him with the Olympic stuff where
Jerry Colangelo kind of threw him under the bus, and that was tough.
That was a tough look. And as Wanda Sykes said on the Shop,
I don't know if you saw that, she stared into the camera and said
fuck Jerry, and I couldn't stop laughing. I thought that was hysterical.
It's pretty good. It's pretty damn good. Darius Garland. First of all,
the Darius Garland Collins Sexton backcorch would not be as divisive as it is
because there's, if you want a question like the long term viability of the
Too Fine together in Cleveland. But they're both really good players, and Darius
Garland hit some I was going back, like hit some ridiculous shots or the
final thirty games or so of the season for him, it feels like the
next step for him is becoming like I don't to best describe it, like
the real offensive quarterback where if the defenses are set, like he's just making
so many plays for others, making all these different reads and you've seen flashes
of it. I'm just curious, as I'm curious to know whether you see
that player in him. Does having Ricky Rubio there maybe help him elevate his
game there at all? What can we expect from him in year three?
I'm incredibly high on Darius Garland like that. That has been the guy that
I have the most invested in emotionally. You look at how he closed out
the season, that April stretch fifteen games of averaging twenty and seven. That
needs to be his new baseline. This season does not work if he's not
assertive in that way. And the biggest thing for him has been confidence.
It's okay, are you going to take those pull up threes in transition when
guys are playing off you and you have a little bit of space, are
you taking three? Now? He's a past first player in a lot of
ways. So it's figuring out that balance of Hey, if I'm aggressive in
when I'm taking shots, it's going to create opportunities for other players. And
if he recognizes that and internalizes that, which everything coming out of camp kind
of indicates that he's at another level of his confidence and they expect a breakout
from him. If that's the case, yeah, this team could potentially compete
for a plan or at least be in that mix where you get to the
trade deadline and you say, hey, we're a little better than we expect.
That this young group is playing well enough that we're close to the plan
and maybe we can evaluate being buyers. We can consolidate some of this talent,
get some established players in here. So to me, the biggest X
factor for the season is how good Darius Garland is. If that twenty and
seven becomes his new baseline, they're going to be good. If not,
you're going to have to answer a lot of tough questions, both from a
coaching and personnel standpoint. What makes Colin Sexton such a divisive player. Colin
Sexton is a divisive player because at his age, he is putting up numbers
offensively that are very comparable to like a Donovan Mitchell. They are more points
more efficiently than Jamal Murray, but the team's success isn't there. The impact
isn't there. Early in his tenure, when he first got drafted, like
as a rookie, he was objectively terrible and the veterans couldn't stand him.
He has improved every season since then, but I think there was some emotional
baggage there, like whether it's with Larry Love or what other veterans were still
there. There was frustration from those early days. So I think it's funny
because people I hate this term. I really hate this term because it's been
used in so many bad faith arguments. But the push to make him come
off the bench without somebody earning that spot over him, Like nobody thinks he
should be playing thirty two minutes a night on this team. This team isn't
counted enough to have him playing twenty minutes a night, So if you're going
to start a lesser player than him to come off the bench, like it's
almost like virtue signaling, Hey, we know that this team needs to have
a big shooting guard. We need to have someone else that at least in
theory, fits when in reality, like he is already staggered with Garland as
much as possible, Like if they're playing thirty two minutes a night, that
gives sixteen minutes with Garland sixteen minutes without Garland. He is playing all of
those second unit minutes. So I don't understand why people get so caught up
with who's starting. If someone else comes along and takes that spot from him,
yeah, absolutely, you can evaluate it. Then maybe he'll be isaacle
Koro. I happen to think that he's a little more comfortable offensively at the
shooting guard position. But the fact that he puts up such great numbers like
twenty four four and a half a phasis last year, like the average efficiency
and in a really really terrible spacing situation, like unless people think it's harder
to score when you're playing with Nikola Yokich or more talented teams, I don't
see why people are kind of scoffing at the efficiency and the point he's putting
up. But it's the typical thing of shooting guard that puts up scoring numbers
on a bad team. People just to see him l it's empty stats.
Anyone can do that. Every team in the league has someone scoring twenty five
points at night on league average efficiency. Yeah, I think I am a
big advanced analytics person, but I do think we get to a point where,
let's not overthink twenty four plus points while hitting fifty plus percent of your
two's and thirty seven plus percent of your threes. That's just those numbers are
absurd. And the type of offense he plays is not like this ball needs
to be in his hands for eight seconds every single time. So if the
team gets better, if the spacing gets better, you can envision his offense
holding if not being more efficient or more amplified on a better version of the
team. And so I get if you want of him as your best player,
then yeah, there's there's there's some issues there. That's not what he's
supposed to be. And you mentioned we do get caught up. I understand
like the cachet of the starting fives, but I'm with you that we get
too caught up and who's actually starting, and especially on this team, it's
like, are you gonna start Kevin Pangos or Ricky Rubio? And said like
who is the Jetty osman? Like who are you starting instead of Colin Sexton
on this team, right, Yeah, Damian Dotson last season like it.
I just don't understand it. And I obviously the on off numbers aren't going
to be great for him because he is being staggered as I said, and
in the past, like they didn't have a backup point guard. I think
having Ricky Rubio is going to really help him in that second unit because now
he doesn't have to try to be a point guard and he can play in
that secondary off ball role, which he plays better in. Like Garland and
Sexton, they play better when they are together, and I think that's a
really important thing. Like when Garland was having his best games in April,
Sexton was also playing really well. Every time Garland scored thirty, Sexton would
also score thirty. Like these guys play well off of each other. So
I do understand long term fit concerns. But if you look at Portland as
an example, where they went wrong was cashing in on the wrong players.
They didn't consolidate talent in at the right times. They traded first round picks
for the wrong players. The issue they made wasn't trading away CJ. McCollum
while he was still on his rookie deal because you're concerned about the long term
fit. It was not that trading CJ. McCollum after he had kind of
established himself, after you've brushed up against the ceiling and you've seen the limitations
and basically doing what Toronto did. They tried Larry and de Rosen for a
long time. Once that hit a ceiling, you moved a Rosen and other
pieces to get an established start to get a better fit. That's, in
my eyes, that's what you do right now with if you're the Calves,
you try this combination to see how well it works, and if you hit
a ceiling, or if you find another combination that works better, go to
it. Use that. But for the time being, you play your most
talented players the most minutes. That's just the way you do this when you
are a team that's been in the lottery the last few years and there has
to be the market to get that upgrade too. Where Portland probably had a
chance, like it should they have rolled the dice when Paul George and Kawhi
Leonard were way back when, even though they were flight risk. Yeah,
yes, but very much one Cleveland isn't good enough to make that decision a
no brainer in my opinion. But that opportunity, unless you think it's Ben
Simmons, hasn't exactly come along, And it's also easier to make that movement
Colin Sexton's on his next deal. I guess my main question is, though,
with all that said, what would be like the path to these two
guys being the future in the back court. Is it's something one or both
of them have to prove, or is it more about how Cleveland is flushing
out the roster around them. I think it's the roster around them. Like
in theory, if Evan Mobiley develops a reliable three point shot, and if
Isaaca Coral can be a reliable three point shooter as well, like that should
be enough def around them. Because Garland's actually a pretty decent positional defender.
It's the combination of those two defensively that leads to a lot of issues.
But if you have the right pieces around them and the right supplemental talent,
it can work. Like we do have examples of short guards working, whether
it's Lowry and Van Vleet, whether it's Conley and Mitchell, like the Portland
even Portland's a good example, like if you had better players around those two,
I think you could have had more success than they've had. But I
really do think long term it's okay. Do you put the right pieces around
them? If not, is moving one of them your best path to get
better pieces? Like if Brandon Ingram hit the market this past summer and you
could move Sexton Nance, maybe picks for Ingram and all of a sudden you're
starting Garland or Coro Ingram Mobilian Alan, this team makes more sense. Like
if something like that is available, yeah, absolutely, you have to look
at all options, But for now, nothing like that seems to be available.
And I mean, Ben Simmons is the biggest name on the market,
but I can't see a viable path to the Calves getting him, And it
creates even more concerns, Like there would be a lot of fit issues if
you've got Mobily out and Ben Simmons. I don't know how that works out.
Simmons has played with two centers and a power forward before and it wasn't
exactly the best experience. Yeah, if they caves end up with a Ben
Simmons, there will be a third, fourth, fifth team involved, I
feel like, And I'll also just be flabbergasted if it happens. I would
still peg Colin Sexon is the most underrated player on this team because of the
scale at which he's doing things. I just don't it shouldn't incite that much
doubt that we've seen. I think isaacal Coro is second, though I don't
know why people seem so down on him. I automatically believe, though this
would be my guest. We see someone with a shaky jumper and we're just
like Foo, not as valuable as he needs to be. What do he
did defensively as a rookie, which is absolutely monstrous, And then just looking
at him on offense, the flashes he showed of being able to get to
the basket, it seems like he moves pretty well off the ball. I'm
officially intrigued by what is going to become offensively long term. And I saw
that JB. Bickerstaff mentioned putting him on the ball even more. Do you
think that that's the path to actually optimizing him on offense? I do think
so he looks at a little more comfortable with the ball in his hands,
which kind of blends into why I said earlier, I think long term he's
probably most comfortable offensively as a shooting guard. But yeah, like he's someone
that works so damn hard too. Like that that was one kind of consistent
thread with who these Cats have drafted the last couple of years. It's all
guys that have been with Team USA, Kobe Altman, Team USA connection there.
All of them have reputations of being really hard workers. They're they're kind
of small city, small town guys for the most part, and they had
relationships with each other off the floor, Like Sexton and Kora we're friends before.
Garland's got a relationship with Windler, He's got a relationship with Alan,
Like, all these guys kind of know each other, right, So I
think you're betting on kind of that internal chemistry and whatnot and what that means
for a cool Like I think this season you might not see him being the
primary initiator, but if the ball swings around to the weak side and he's
able to run like a side pick and roll with Mobili or something like that,
Like, I do think getting him those reps or reps with the second
unit can help kind of accentuate that part of his offensive game, because I
do think that he's a smart player. He's someone that makes the right pass,
makes the right reads. He's a good finisher around the rim. If
his offense was as good as his defense was last year and you just kind
of flipped the offense and defense, I think he would have got a lot
more credit than he received for his rookie season. But I do think that
he's someone that has really really high potential. And we talked about a nanced
earlier. He had done an interview in the preseason after working out with Okoro
where he's like, yeah, I think he's got the most potential all the
guys that were already here, Like, he's really really high on him.
I'm not that high on OCORL. But I do think that he can be
a really really solid piece for this team moving forward. I hope that they're
able to sort of run these four out lineups around him, which would make
be more interested on him offensive. I don't know what that looks like.
It's probably a Garland Sexton maybe mobile marketing, like those four around him.
I don't know if that's something they try. When you look at this team,
it feels like they have there, let's say like seven players. You
have the starting lineup and then you have Marketing and Ricky Rubio. How do
you sort of see the rotation shaking out beyond those top seven unless I'm completely
off on the starting lineup and you think it's gonna be something different than a
Koro, Sexton, Garland Mobile and all, and now you're you're completely bang
on. And I mean in the first preseason game, your first sums were
Rubio and Marketing off the bench, and I think that's probably the most likely
way for this to go. I think the only really change you could potentially
see the starting lineup is Laurie in there at the starting four if they decide,
hey, we need a little more space than we're going to bring Mobile
along a little slower if things aren't working out. But I think it's going
to take some time before they get to that decision. And what Mob we
can already do defensively is incredible, Like he's just such a good connecting piece
that get keeping him with those starters and with that talent, I think there
is an appeal to that. But outside of that, I don't really know.
Like I think Kevin Love's probably the eighth. I just hope that you
don't see a lot of minutes with him and Laurie Market and they tried it
a little bit against Chicago. But my buddy Evan Damerel did some reporting there
where he was saying, hey, don't read into the rotations in the preseason.
They are experimenting. I think people forget sometimes preseason basketball is just an
extension of training camp. It's not necessarily the plan you're going into the season
with. But yeah, I think Kevin lovell play some minutes. I think
Jetty Osman might be maybe the ninth man, the ninth and ten man.
There's a competition for that. JB. Bickerstaff has said that he wants to
go in with a ten man rotation, and I think it'll between me between
Dylan win Theer, Jetty Osman, Lamar Stevens. Primarily to fill out those
last two spots, if I had to guess, I don't even want to
name them all because of how how many there are. I did list some
of them in the outline, but like, who do you want to actually
make this roster? When you're looking at all those partial guarantees, who do
you want to see more of moving forward? I assume that you have to
default to Dylan Windler who's not partially guaranteed, But just like, what the
hell is Dylan Windler. That's just the question we've been asking for for years
at this point. Like theoretical Dylan Windler is a perfect fit for what they
need. A six seven, long arm wing that rebounds well, that makes
the right passes, that can shoot really well, shot the hell out the
ball in college. Like he even like if you look at his like January
and February last year, he's shooting forty percent from the line, He's rebounding
well, he was playing pretty decent team defense. He just can't stay healthy.
Like outside of that, from the non guaranteed guys, I really like
what Dean Wade brings to the table. I don't think there's a role for
him until Kevin Love is off the roster, but I do think as a
third power forward. Yeah, he's someone that moves his feet well, defensively,
that can shoot well, plays good team basketball. Again, they need
smart players out there to help make up for how young they are, So
he's someone that I would give none to. Lamar Stevens is someone that I
have a soft spot for. I think there might be a path to play
him in some of those bench lineups, if it's Laurie Marken and mobile Sexton
Rubio, like, I think if there's enough shooting out there, he's someone
that can kind of excel as a slasher and a defensive player. They had
a good ability to score in college, but not a lot of that came
from the outside, which is obviously complicated when you're talking about this team.
Denzel Valentine. Chris feed Or from Cleveland dot Com did report he's kind of
a break glass in case of emergency presence on this team doesn't really anticipate him
being part of the rotation. So if you're looking at guys that could potentially
work out, well, I think it's Dylan Winnler and Jetty Osman as those
backup threes, just because of their theoretical ability to shoot the basketball. Like
but prior to last season, Jetty Osman like twenty nineteen twenty Jetty makes a
big difference for this team because he's someone that can at least handle the ball
a little bit, shot like thirty seven percent from three. He just never
really adjusted to coming in off the bench, So that's a real, real,
big question mark because some guys just aren't comfortable in that role, and
if that's the case for a Jetty, he's gonna have a tough time sticking
around in the NBA. Do we expect Kevin pang Goes to be one of
their top ten guys? If it's a you know, they might go beyond
a ten man rotation, But do we expect him to be within the top
ten? I don't think so. I think when you look at Garland,
Sexton, and Rubio, it's similar to the frontcourt situation with Alan Mobiley and
Laurie. There's ninety six minutes between those two guard spots, and if Sexton
and Garland are playing thirty two, Rubio is probably going to get twenty five.
That leaves maybe seven for Icicle Coral to slide over, or maybe Dylan
Winner or something like that. I just don't see a role for Kevin Pangos
in the regular rotation. Injuries may open things up, but I just I
don't see a path to him being at least for the start of the season.
I don't see a path for him unless maybe Rubio gets traded at the
deadline or there's some injuries. You sort of alluded to this already, But
what is the biggest weakness on this roster, whether it's a specific position or
just a functional archetype. Yeah, he may have heard this before, but
when Lebron James isn't on the roster, they have had a bit of a
hole at the small forward position that spicy take that is spicy. It has
been a bit of a trend. We've seen Lonzo g CJ Miles, Jetty
Osman there the last I guess now almost eight years with with the four year
break when Lebron came back in between. Yeah, finding small forwards is tricky.
Like I think the Cavs were hopeful that they could add someone with the
mid level exception, guys like Doug McDermott and other wing options kind of were
outside their price range. They tried for Josh Hark that didn't work out,
which undersized wing but at least would have helped fill a role. It just
didn't work out. So now you're really relying on Isacle Corro and a bunch
of unproven players to kind of play that small forward position. So that to
me is the clearest hole on this roster. I normally try to go through
teams and just figure out where I think they're going to end like top whatever
on offensive defensive efficiency and just try to figure out which end of the floor
they're going to be better at. This team gave me a headache when I
started to think about it. Do you have any predictions for where you think
they might end on offense defences or where you think they're just going to be
the better team. I think it would naturally be, oh, they're going
to be the better offensive team. But then I look at like their starting
lineup, and you do have Rubio, and if Mobidy's actually good defensively off
the bat, you have Allen. Look at how good Okora was last year,
He's going to be better. I could see them technically out playing their
their offense on defense. I think so too if you look at last season
and exclude May, where there was basically nobody actually playing. The things were
falling apart, lottery odds were improving. You do the map there outside of
May, they were twenty first defensively, which for a team as young as
they are, and that only really got like seventeen games out in the hands
before he got hurt like that, that's kind of where they hung their hat.
And the fact that now you got Ricky Rubio in there instead of Dotson
and Broderick Thomas, Like, I think that's going to help them out a
lot defensively that everyone else is a year older, you got a full year
of Jared out. I think defense is probably going to be their best end
on the floor. I don't think they're going to excel in anyone area.
I think when you look at a starting lineup that has an average age of
just over twenty one, you are probably going to have a lot of nights
where things don't go your way. I think this team isn't going to be
as good as their best nights, and they're not going to be as bad
as their worst night, but you're going to get a really, really uneven
performance so over the course of a season when you are this young. So
if I had to guess just based on personnel as well as the tendencies of
the coaching staff with JB. Bickerstaff, I would assume that defense would probably
be their strongest end on the floor, but not exactly excelling in any one
area. This is always subject to change based on how the season plays out.
But if you had to pick right now, who would be the player
most likely to be dealt before the trade deadline this year, I would say
Ricky Rubio in the final year of an expiring contract. I do think there
would likely be a market for him if they see enough out of Kevin Pangos
to say, hey, maybe he can be a backup point guard, or
or if other options become available, maybe there is some appetite if things are
going well to use Rubio to be that chip that you go out and buy
at the trade deadline to add a wing for a contending team that maybe he
needs a point guard, right, I think there's going to be a market
for Rubio, and if you're attaching other assets along with him, yeah,
maybe you can make a little bit of a splash there. So he would
probably be my pick for most likely just because in either direction, like if
things go really well and he's their chip to buy, yeah, he makes
a lot of sense. If things go really poorly, he can be a
chip to add another assets to maybe try this again next offseason. So to
me, he makes the most sense. But at the same time, I
really like what Ricky Rubio can bring to this roster. Like I think from
a veteran standpoint, you need to have adults in the locker room He's been
a mentor to a lot of good young players in the league, and I
think he's going to do the same thing for Garland and Sex and so my
preference would be to keep him around, But he'd probably be my pick for
most likely to be traded. I think when you look at the Calves front
court, their crunch time lineup might change more than most depending on the matchup.
But what would be what do you think will be or should be there
their best crunch time unit. Oh boy, that is really tough. So
I do think Garland and Allen would probably be my locks. I would say,
oh, Koro two, just because they have a lot of faith in
him. They have a lot of trust in what he can bring to the
table. So outside of that, it's Mobili or Laurie and maybe Sexton.
Like I think Sexton will probably be out there because a lot of crunch time
situations for the Calves are probably them looking to make up ground and take the
lead. I don't think they're necessarily going to be protecting the lead a whole
lot, So you're probably are going to have Sexton out there, and then
it's just a matter of whether or not it's Laurie or Mobili and that might
be you know, who's playing at power forward, and crunch time might just
be a result of who's playing the best that night. Like if it's a
great night for Kevin Love, maybe it's him. If it's a great night
for Laurie, maybe it's him. If if Mobiley's playing well, it will
be him. Like I do think you're in a situation where, yeah,
this isn't the deepest team in the league, but at the same time,
they do have depth at the same position, like whether it's the bigs or
the guards. So there's going to be internal competition on a night tonight basis
on who gets to close. And I think that's overall a pretty healthy environment
for a young team as long as there's enough minutes for everybody, which I
believe there will be. Is there a quirky outside the box lineup that you're
hoping this team tries at some point during the regular season. I would hate
to see a Garland, Oh, Coro Windler, Laurie Mobley lineup. I
just think you know there's spacing there. You can get a little taste of
Mobley at the five. I think that two man game with Garland and Mobley
with those spacers around them would be a lot of fun in and even though
col he might be able to initiate some offense there with Garland playing off ball.
So I do think that that's kind of a fun lineup. But I
want to see this team get out and run, and I know that's gonna
cause a lot of turnovers and a lot of mistakes with the young team,
but I just want to see some up Temple basketball, so I think that's
a lineup that is well suited to do that. So no four center lineup
for you with Kevin Love Marketing and Jared out No, No, that's that
is not exactly the direction I'd like to see them go. I don't think
this is quirky enough, but I want to see that the all kids lineup,
I'll call it just Garland, Sexton, Okoro, Dylan Windler, and
Evan Mobley, Like, give me those five just to see. I'm sure
there'll be a lot of mistakes, but that's technically you know, four out
around Ocoro, depending on how Mobley is is shooting. So he said all
kids, but then you pick Windler who is older than Laurie Marketing, just
because I haven't seen Windler he's still a prospect. To me, I just
haven't seen another there you go. So he's like Duncan Robinson. Look look
at the their their age, twenty four seasons, almost identical, just didn't
do anything, and he's about to have that breakout. I wish that was
true. I really wish I could lie to myself in that way. I'm
hopeful though, because he's someone that one. He is healthy, he like,
he seems like a smart basketball layer. He seems like he would fit.
It's just this poor guy can't stay healthy, which was never the problem
before he came to the NBA, which is really unfortunate. Look, I
think I told you this last year when we were talking about Dylan Windler what
his role might look like if he stays healthy. Someone retweeted into my timeline
of someone else calling Dylan one lid of the Caucasian Jimmy Butler. And so
that's that's clearly the prospect that you have on your hands if you're wanted a
wild wild comp it's certainly a hill to die on too. Thought it was
bizarre they're over under as we record this. Wind total is twenty four point
five. Are you taking the over under on that, and where do you
see them sort of stacking up relative to the larger picture of the East.
Yeah, so, I I mean I bet the over when it was twenty
six and a half. It looks like I jumped at the wrong time,
and that's been beat down a little bit. Right now. It probably ranked
them about eleventh in the East. I think they're going to be better than
Orlando and Detroit. Toronto is a really interesting situation because they were in the
play in mixed last season and didn't really have an interest in that. I
will be interested to see, like if they want to go for it this
season, that's a team that can easily make the plan. But if Masside
decides to pull the plug again, that might create an opportunity. Charlotte is
really good and I like their long term outlook, but they got younger and
I think they're going to have a lot of growing pains this season. So
I think they're right around where Charlotte is, at least in my eyes,
in the Eastern Conference. So you look at last year, they won twenty
two games, you know, seventy two games season, which works out to
about twenty five. I think they were better than their record last season.
And I do think that they did improve, so I probably have them low
to mid thirties if you're looking at this season. Their place in the East
is tough because I, like you think Orlando Detroit are the only teams that
are definitively better than you do have teams like Washington and Toronto where what if
they what if Washington trades Bradley Beal? What if Toronto decides to know,
we don't want to finish six seven eight, like we're gonna punt on this
season again midway through? I also don't know. I know they looked good
in their first preseason game. Know what the fuck the Chicago Bulls are?
I just I don't know what's going to happen there. So I could see
them imploding. I could also see them being fourth. And then I think
the copy made was great was where Charlotte is like the team that I've thought
about. Maybe Cleveland is like that that third team. Cleveland is definitely better
than it feels like people are sort of rushing expectations upon them because LaMelo was
so good and their roster just didn't get a lot better over the offseason,
and now you're putting a ton of expectations on, but still a relatively young
core. When you look at PJ. Washington, Miles Bridges, A Lamello,
you lose DeVante Graham, you bring in Kelly Bridge Jr. There's just
a lot of weird stuff there. But the East Book Night's probably going to
like take over a lot of Graham's role. Rookie, you got Kai Jones
as the backup center. I think going to plumb Lee is a downgrade from
Cody Zeller. Like they've they've got questions on the inside, and I really
like their long term out look. I'm a big fan of what they've done.
I like the players they've drafted. It's just similar situation in caps.
They're they're young, They're they're young, they're inexperienced, they got younger.
You're going to have growing pains there. I really think whichever team is better
is probably going to be determined by whoever is better between Garland and LaMelo.
Like you see, like point guards are real floor raisers in the game,
So I do think that that's probably going to be what defines the season.
Like if Garland in order for this season to be successful, Garland needs to
kind of establish himself in like that LaMelo ball, John Morantier point guards.
If he doesn't do that, things aren't going to work out like it's to
me, it's almost that simple. When it comes to the Calves, you
mentioned this team maybe buying or selling at the deadline depending on where they are.
What does selling look like for them? Is it just moving Ricky Rubio?
Because when you look at the row, I mean you would trade Kevin
Love, but Kevin Love isn't readily tradeable, otherwise he would have been moved
already. So what would selling actually look like with this roster? Is it
just a Rubio move? Yeah? I think it's Rubio. I mean there's
not a lot of other veterans on this team. I think the course six
is probably safe for this season. Well, we'll see what happens with a
Sexton extension. If he gets locked up, obvious that removes them from a
law drain conversations. I think Garland and Mobili are probably the closest things to
locks with this core, and then outside of that you get to a core
Jared Down they just invested in, so I don't see them parting ways there.
So I don't really see a whole lot of shakeups with kind of the
let's call them the young Core, the Core six, whatever you want to
call them. I don't think any of those guys get moved unless it is
consolidation, like a situation where you are moving two guys from that kind of
core six to add another. Like to me, that's how I define core,
Like I don't think all these guys are franchise players. I think core
can change from year to year, but a core is basically guys you're only
moving if you're bringing in a piece you believe can be part of your future
core. So that's how I would kind of identify those six. Outside of
that, Jenny Osman, Ricky Rubio, Kevin Love like, those type of
guys would would be moved if I had to guess who could be traded.
And do you think the front office has the goal slash sense of urgency to
make a consolidation trade if one presents itself knowing that the Calves they're not we
just talked about it, They're not in this definant position in the East,
and so I would think that makes such a decision harder to make. I
think I think they've taken a pretty patient approach, like even this media day
a lot of the players were talking about playoffs as goal playoffs this goal.
Kobe Altman came out and said, hey, we have an eye tour to
the postseason, but this is a process. We're not going to put a
number of wins on it. Things can always change with the calves, I
mean ownership as become inpatient at times like I wouldn't be surprised if there was
a shake up if they didn't live up to expectations. But those expectations haven't
really been firmly defined, And the fact that they're not outright saying hey,
it's playoffs or bus makes me believe that, hey, they understand that we're
starting a lineup that is incredibly young. We didn't have a lot of cap
space who make moves around this team and supplement the talent, So we tried
the best that we could. And now we're going to get a better sense
of where these young guys are at. So I don't necessarily think there's going
to be a panic move, but you never know. There the sense of
urgency in the NBA, and that timeline with teams has seemed like it's moved
up the last couple of years. Is there any one or anything about this
team. I haven't asked you about that you think needs to be discussed.
Ooh, you are thorough, my friend, you are absolutely thorough. I
don't believe there's a whole lot that has been left uncovered. I think a
lot of my preseason thoughts are out there now, so I think I think
we've covered this team pretty damn well. Just no strong taco fall opinions,
nothing, nothing long this He is going to be great for the Cleveland Charge.
I think he is going to be a fan favorite there. You know,
Talco is an interesting guy because he seems so beloved in locker rooms that
maybe you keep him around as a good vibes guy. Kevin Gelli is another
good vibes guy. We at the opportunity to talk to him a media day
and what it was. I was really impressed with what he had to say.
This is a team that the vibes are really good. The vibes are
really good in preseason. They seem to really like playing with each other,
which I think is great. We'll see how that works and how resilient that
is because they are going to have a really tough opening to the season.
You got Memphis Charlotte Atlanta before you go on a road trip playing Denver.
Both LA teams Portland and a big West coast swing right off the bat.
So we'll see how resilient that is. But it is nice to have a
situation where the vibes are good. You got a young core that likes playing
with one another and they're going to test out to see what they're what they're
capable of. The vibes are good. That's a great note to end the
podcast on, just to we're able to tell our listeners where they can find
you and your podcast. You will find me and my good vibes on Twitter
at Cavs Anada. You can find my podcast wherever you listen to this podcast.
I will wager that you will be able to find the Chase Down podcast.
We talk about the Calves and the rest of the NBA through our wine
and gold colored glasses. I like to call it realistic optimism, Like I
got people excited last year about the Cavs predicting twenty seven wins. Right now
I'm saying they're probably eleventh seed, like mid thirty wins. Load a mid
thirty wins, And you know what, if I can convince people that that
is an intriguing storyline and get them excited about it. You know what,
I'm doing my job well, so you can find me there, you say,
rose colored glasses. But I am impressed with how you and Carter have
kept level headed takes and you haven't. Your opinions on the team have not
skewed in any different directions since you guys have been under the actual Cleveland Cavaliers
umbrella, which is an impressive accomplishment to fall under that umbrella, but then
to also, you know, still give your actual opinions on the team without
fault without you know, everyone is going to have the best season of their
career. They've they've gained ten pounds of muscle lost, double digit percentage of
body fat off there, and every everybody that needed to lose is weight lost
fifteen. Everyone that needed to gain weight gained fifteen. You know, Like,
I think it helped that we were already doing like a what I believed
to be like a fairly fair podcast, Like I always want to be realistic,
but at the same time, like this is sports, Like I recognize
that this is escapism. I've always kept that in perspective, So I'm not
going to be the fan that's sitting here screaming for so and so to be
fired, because I my strength, what I know is how little I actually
know. And that's a real benefit when it comes to talking about sports because
at the end of the day, like there's so much that we don't know.
I keep things in perspective and try to have some fun along the way,
because you know what, like, life's too short and at the end
of the day, it's NBA basketball man, Like, it's not a life
or death situation. That's what I've said. I recognize that what I do
is completely expendable. I take my work seriously, but I also don't take
myself too seriously. It's a fucking game that we cover. O god,
no, god, no, I can me taking myself seriously? No no,
no, no, no no. Yeah. I followed you on too
for more than a half a decade. You definitely do not take yourself too
seriously. No, absolutely not. And hopefully I facilitate good enough conversation.
And you know what, we bring on the experts. We bring on the
experts and we have some fun with them, get them to loosen up,
and that's the best way to go about it. Well, please keep up
the great work. Thank you so much for coming on as usual. I'm
glad we have a third term to associate with you now soon the return and
I think my favorite one out. The vibes are good, trustin. I
think, as you know by now, we're pestering you again in the future.
Thank you again, no problem, you can pest for me anytime.
Thanks for having