Hello, and welcome to the show. I'm Martin Willisher host. We have
a great show this evening for you. And just a minute, we have
Ted Row He's a special guest that kind of last minute, and we're gonna
be talking about I'm gonna make things real confusing for our going tonight. We're
gonna be talking about narcap a little bit. But no, he's got some
things to announce. And the only reason I bring that up is because he's
involved with that. But tonight later on, the main guest is Jack Brewer.
He's gonna be talking about eyecap and some other things as well. So
I know all these all these things we have to keep track of what means
what and all that. And so our guest has a great blog called the
UFO Trail blogspot dot com and lots of information over there. Some people call
him a skeptic. I think he's looking at we can call him a skeptic.
I've never shy away from having a skeptic on the show. I don't
particularly like debunkers. I don't call him a debunker. But anyway, Jack
brew is a great guy coming up, and I want to say we have
two shows this week Thursday afternoon on YouTube and Facebook only is Mark Allie and
he's gonna be talking about crystal skulls, which I've always had a fascination with.
I went to Expo sixty seven, you know, I think it was
about ten years after it was still open up in Quebec, Canada, and
I saw a crystal skull there and I was totally mesmerized by it. And
some of them came from Mayan ruins. I'm not sure where this where these
come from exactly. I know that there was a hoax out there at one
time. Something is supposed to be ancient. Anyway, check out that's on
the UFO. I mean, it's on our YouTube channel only, and it's
live streaming this Thursday at three pm Mark Ali. And if you want to
get notifications on YouTube, simply just subscribe to our channel and click the notification
bell on the side. So this week's blog is taken aboard a UFO and
turned into a mutant. Now this is a story. Charles Lear, who
does writes our blogs, you know, talks a lot about people are you
know, have these incredible stories and not always he doesn't always talk about things
that are factual because of course a lot of this stuff are it can't be
proven other than something happening. Anyway, It's a good read and check it
out. It's kind of a short blog. But he also has a follow
up on the update of Irma Rick the story of the woman supposedly saying she
was transported by a UFO in Brazil. I think it was no Argentina.
I'm sorry she was supposedly transported in the middle of the night, sixty miles
showed up with you know where. She couldn't have walked that far. Who
knows whatever happened. It's an interesting story, and she certainly doesn't look like
someone that could have. While I shouldn't say it that way, she would
have a hard time walking that far, anyone would, but I'll better just
leave it at that and anyway, So check out those blogs, and thank
you everyone who supports the show. I really appreciate it. I could not
do that without you. I'm going to be on the road in a little
while. I'm not going to be doing the show from the road for a
little bit, and a lot of things coming up, a lot of great
guests coming up, and all that. For right now, I'm going to
bring in Ted row. He is in the Big Island over in Hawaii.
He welcome to the show again, Ted, thank you, Martin. Hello
everybody. Yeah, and we see are we seeing like mister Fogg behind you?
Is that what that is? Yeah? Probably we've got some weather coming
through. It's it rains where I'm at a year, so yeah, it's
like you can count on the rain every day, right every day. And
this is actually a dry moment. So so you got it, You got
it right now, we better hurry up, so you send me a text.
I mean, you have kind of an interesting announcement related to the UFO
topic and and something you said it is pretty incredible after fifty years or something
like that, and I'd love for you to spill it and tell us what's
going on. Well. Sure. The American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics contacted
me right after the OD and I report was released last June and invited me
to join a small group of speakers at their AB twenty one conference to advocate
for the scientific study of UAP. And we did that, and then about
a month later they called us back and invited us to form into a development
team to prepare a function inside of AIAA that would address UAP and aviation safety
and also pushed back against the stigma that inhibits scientific engagement. And so we
spent the last yeah, we spent the last six months working on that program.
And the backstory is just that when I was a kid trying to resolve
UFO experiences in my life and my family's life, I was looking up UFO
and the card catalog at the library, and of course AIAA was right at
the front with their statement on UFOs. They had taken a counter position to
Project Bluebook and Condon in their conclusions and advocated for fur their study. They
had one I think a local chapter did a conference on UAP and Los Angeles
or something shortly thereafter, and then it kind of died on the vine now
fifty years later, and part of that story and it's it's kind of a
kind of interesting, you know, from a couple of angles. Yeah,
that that is that is great. That is great. By the way,
a library is a place where they have books just for and that card file
is where you used to look up the book, yeah right, those things.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, but well that's that's pretty exciting. And
so yeah, the stigma as you know, because of what you've been involved
and with NARCAP is uh and that's National Aviation, National Aviation reporting on an
almost yeah, yeah, yeah, it is, it is. And um,
just for the person who's never um really looked into that at all,
can you explain a little bit what that what's involved in that? Well,
Doctor Jaynes and I founded in our CAP in nineteen ninety nine two thousand to
address UAP reports that involved aviation safety. And a lot of the pilot reports
have safety factors involved in the report, but the data moves away from the
aviation system and the safety planners that could use that information. So we spent
the last twenty two years basically advocating and collecting data on these types of incidents.
And then the OD and I report came out and from their own data
found the same concerns. And well, while this AI double effort is not
derivative of our CAP, we didn't you know, they're not following our work.
We're in parallel with them. We both have the same concerns pretty much
the same perspect of them. Now, one thing that always comes to mind
when I talked to someone like you, and I don't know if I spoke
to you about this before when you were on but Gate C. Seventeen back
to two thousand and seven O'Hare airport, was the disc that was above the
gate and then shot up through the clouds left punched a hole in it.
For those of you that are new and have not really looked at that story.
But one of the things I've said when I've talked at people about this,
well enough time that was two thousand and seven, So much time has
gone by. There are people that should have retired by now that you think
would be talking about it, And I just wonder what your thoughts were on
that. It's entirely possible. I haven't done any follow up with witnesses over
the years, for you know, we keep seeing stories related to the O'Hara
incursion, but we only found one personally even said that they had taken a
photograph, or one person that was referred to as having taken a photograph,
and they never stepped forward. I don't know if there was a photograph.
All the photographic evidence I've seen has been you know, post or faked.
Uh. Yeah, And at the time, no cell phone cameras weren't that
prominent, you know, and you know, it doesn't surprise me. It's
not a hilt. That case is not a hill to die on. It's
just an example of an encourasion into class be restricted airspace and the attempts to
mitigate those things. And again the data didn't go to safety planners. As
it turns out, the FAA doesn't take UFO reports as it for decades and
uh so so here. So if you've got a case that involves a UFO
where souls were on board and you were concerned, there's no nobody, nobody,
nobody cares. Well, I don't, I don't. I don't understand
that if you really think about it, like it's a safety issue, and
why wouldn't why wouldn't they be interested than that? Well, if you can
imagine what it was like for the UAP Task Force to show up at the
FAA offices and say, hey, show us all that great pilot UFBO stuff
you guys have, and they don't have anything. You know, we haven't
been I mean, if you look at the manual, the manual says take
it elsewhere. The manual says, if you want to report a UFO encounter,
contact a civilian reporting system. Is that right peace. It doesn't even
make any sense to me because if they were flying by and there was a
balloon or a drone or something, of course they reported, you know through
the FAA. And what is the difference that it's unwell, well, it's
just it was something they can identified and that that that standard is unacceptable.
We we brief the Aviation Safety Reporting System analysts at the Bunker Old Tap there
outside of Haines Research Center and talk to them about it, and they do
get those reports, often anonymous, but that's the only place where pilots could
go. Now that now that we have the Pentagon in the game and they're
setting up a reporting system across all government deureaucracies that centers in on their program,
kind of like the French program and Japan, right yea. Hopefully that
that data will will first off, it will be collected, but then the
problem is again it moves away from the aviation system into the defense establishment,
so aviation safety planners still don't have what they need, even though the OD
and I report specifically stated that along with national security their threat to aviation,
So you know, it would something we need to resolve and I'm hoping that
our work through AI. DOAA is going to help us, you know,
address issues of data integrity and access. Yeah, well I learned something ted.
I had no idea that they wash their hands of just thought they didn't
pass along any information. But I had no idea that they they had nothing
to do with UFO or UAP as they say reports. That is, if
you look at the Aeronautical Instruction Manual you know the AIM, or you look
at the Air Traffic Control Instruction Manual, their entries on reporting up or the
same and they don't do it. They don't be such an outward interesting.
Well, I hope the day comes where pilots are not going to worry about
losing their jobs, you know by reporting something, because there's probably a lot
more scene out there than ever reported. Absolutely, and that day is coming
because, like I said, now the data is going to be collected and
then it's a matter of us trying to get ahold of some of it so
we can do the right thing with it in terms of making sure pilots are
prepared for the unexpected. And I wrote a pilot advisory about this. It's
been read in a hundred forty countries and it's just a conservative angle on how
to deal with it. So, yeah, I've been I've told people before
on this show that I was a former for a while. I was a
flight attendant and so I got to ride up in the cockpit a number of
times, and you can just see a vast area. I mean, you
can see for miles and miles and miles on a clear day. It's amazing.
I don't know how many miles. It seems like it seems like you
can see easily for one hundred miles. So you know, anything in the
sky. You would think that that pilots would see more. Actually, with
all the reports on the ground, you think they would see more than reported.
Well, all they do, and they're reticent to talk about it.
I can't tell you the number of times I've been somewhere and people know who
I am, and somebody pulled me aside and said, hey, you know,
I was an air traffic controller at ex military base, or I was
a pilot flying for something, and I want to tell you my story.
And and so we get the stories. There's a lot more than we actually
know about because the systems in hostile Yeah, excellent. I think it's starting
to rain, or those insects yeah, it's starting to rain right right on
you. So anyway, Ted, thank you so much. It's always a
pleasure talking to you. A pleasure. Yeah. Take here, all right,
I know, all right. Everyone, So our guests, our main
guest tonight is coming up right now. Jack, welcome to the show.
Thank you for having me. It's always great to be here. Yes,
I think it was. It was two thy sixteen when you were on before.
As time just ticks away, it sure does. Yeah, And so
you've been up to all kinds of things you. Your blog is called the
UFO Trail at blog spot, and um, my friend wrote for you way
back in twenty and sixteen about hypnotherapy, and I thought that was interesting.
Um, she remembered it and I forgot all about it, but you remembered
every bit about it, so that's great. I did remember Donna, your
friend. I remember that when I did your show before. She called in
and we talked, and I was interested enough in her comments that she and
I connected off of the show as well, and I interacted whether some more
by email and did a blog post about it. And yeah, I think
a lot of people have these interactions with UFA researchers and circumstances that arise that
are worthy of hearing and giving attention that they're just not willing to try to
fight to get, you know, on the airwaves or get some attention to
their story because oftentimes they're very personal stories and they often involve people besides just
ourselves as well. And uh yeah, I I certainly remember Donna and her
circumstances, and I'm glad to hear she remembered it, and I hope she
valued it and that things are going well. Yeah, yeah, so,
uh well, it's always it's always great to have you on. And uh,
you know, I don't know if you if I announced you in the
proper way, but I said, I said, some people call you a
skeptic. Would you say, you're just looking at this topic m logically,
is what I would say, more than you're not a debunker. You don't
bash people or anything like that. And someone wrote in somewhere in the chat
room, I saw, well, he's not a debunker at all. So
I never called you one, and I'm but I'd like to hear the skeptical
side of things, because I think I remember Stan Freeman says, you know,
have an open mind, but don't let your brain fall out, you
know. Yeah, yeah, and you know, maybe debunking is in the
eye of the beholder exactly. Yeah. So you wrote about, well,
you've you've written some books, and one of them, um, we're gonna
be talking about a little bit later, and that was called the Grace or
framed this quickly touch on or what's the title to that one? Exactly?
The graves have been framed exploitation in the UFO community and the graves have been
framed was a phrase that that kind of got batted around with some people I
used to interact with online, and it was kind of a way to try
to reframe the way we think about things and the way we look at things.
And we could try a number of ways to tell people that a lot
of the UFO lord doesn't stand up the scrutiny, or a lot of the
claims are anecdotal and unsubstantiated. And one of the phrases that that kind of
seemed to fit that to try to get people to come at it from a
different direction was just the grays have been framed. Man, it's you know,
they they haven't done everything that they're accused of. Yeah, yeah,
I've always you know, I was always on the fence with you know,
it's very interesting and it just I think it's interesting that people have reported seeing
these beings that, you know, like on the Whitley Strieber book, you
know that look like look like that, and um, you know it's been
mentioned over and over again and and you know, um, and then people
are talking about characteristics of them being almost you know, emotionless and you know,
like drones doing their job or something like that. But anyway, UM,
yeah, I until I see when I have to remain skeptic myself.
But it is pretty interesting. It's not just here in this country. People
are reporting it all over. Some people say that it's you know, pop
culture influence, you know, all types of things like that. So I
have no idea. Yes, mister Streber's book cover Communion, that's definitely a
striking, haunting image that influenced people quite a bit. I was talking with
your support staff before the show, and I think that most all of us,
many of us come at this topic because we think there's something to it,
and people that believe in an alien presence or in other or something to
that effect, they deserve the same dignity and respect that we would afford those
who don't believe that, or that we would afford anyone. And I think
where some of the problems arise Martin is we begin to argue things from a
personalized perspective, and it shouldn't always be that way. For instance, if
I challenge things that a researcher has asserted, or if I challenge their methodology
as being flawed and not as solid as they purported to be, that is
a different argument from does persona's experiences were they real? Or were they imagined?
But oftentimes an experiencer will kind of project the whole argument on if there's
any substance to the UFO topic at all, by questioning anyone researcher or anyone
methodology or any single report, and it can become almost a reverse stigmatism that
critical thinkers will shy away from the subject just because it and not because they're
afraid of being criticized for looking at it, but they just don't want to
get publicly bashed and have groups of pro UFO people sin after them to discourage
them from being critical. So it can almost become a reverse stigmatism. But
I think everyone does deserve respect and tolerant about how they come to have the
beliefs and the opinions they have that could spread across of all parts of our
society today. That that way of thinking, you know, because we you
know, we're very divisive these days in so many ways, and and you
know, if we can relax a little bit and let people believe what they
want as long as they're not hurting other people, you know, what's the
harm in that that type of thing. But um so let's hear about Nightcap.
I think this is very interesting that there may be an intelligence a US
intelligence connection and what led you down this path? Well, the short answer
to that is there's certainly a US and CIA and tell eligence connection with NIECAP
and its purposes become a bit more up for debate. What led me down
that path is the more and more I got interested in this smartin and after
going to a ridiculous amount of moof on meetings and UFO conferences and reading this
and listening to that, I came to the conclusion that one really cannot solve
a scientific question with a laptop and no equipment. You know, I understand
why people investigate UFO sidings. I understand why they interview experiencers. I get
that some people are interested in it, but after chasing my long enough,
I became much less interested in stories that have no resolution, and I became
much more interested in the social circumstances and materials that are available through the Freedom
of Information Act and newspaper archives and various material and records that are recognized as
professional research standards. And so one of the things that I was interested in
was where the intelligence community overlaps with the UFO community. And so I was
interested in Bill Moore and the nineteen nineties heyday of ufology, and of course
the more recent A Tip story and to the Stars Academy and that kind of
thing. But it seemed like I was overlooking a big, a big piece
of the ic UFO community connection with NIECAP, and so I really didn't know
much about the National Investigations Committee on Aerial Phenomena NIECAP, a mid twentieth century
UFO group, And when I began looking into it, I started doing some
FOIA requests and finding more and more ties to high ranking members of the CIA,
and there was just an undeniable connection between a group of people that were
on the outskirts of the CIA and organizations that were contracted by the CIA,
and directors and key personnel of the CIA directly correlated with the people that incorporated
Nightcap and ran it initially. And I started out doing some blog posts about
it and was surprised how much material directly corroborated these circumstances. So I ended
up putting it in a book and am still getting more material as I saved
from newspaper archives, FOIA requests. There's a great deal of material available in
archive collections at colleges, letter letters that are saved and things like that that
from the best I can tell, or virtually untapped resources. And I hope
to be looking into some of that. And I can understand people are interested
in UFOs and they want to hear about aliens, and so oftentimes if there's
not a flying saucer in this story, they're not really interested. But I
think we're really overlooking a big part of the cultural puzzle, the social puzzle
how all of this stuff came to be in so many of our daily lives
and our forward thinking consciousness. If we don't go back and look at how
some of the original American UFO groups were formed and Incorporated and what some of
those initial intentions may have been that then it all just kind of snowballed out
of There was a story that Ray Stanford told me. Are you familiar with
who Ray Stanford is? I am. Yeah. He told me that he
was involved in a conference and that all of a sudden had funds of seventy
five thousand dollars and a shell company that he traced back to American you know,
like it was through the intelligence or I would have to talk to him
more about it, but you know, there was it was a kind of
a big deal at the time, and this is going back to the nineteen
seventies. It was very expensive and all of a sudden it was paid for.
So they would you say that this is there possibly looking to get inside
information about what's going on with the public or what's going on with you know,
the possibility of UFOs and US being visited. Which would you say?
Which would you think? I tend to think the latter is a low priority.
I don't think that Director hill Encoder with the CIA would have come to
a civilian organization, for instance, to learn about UFOs and potential aliens.
That's just my opinion. What I feel pretty confident about is that the purpose
of the intelligence community involvement, the CIA involvement, the DA involvement. I
think it changes from one instance to another, one specific circumstance to another,
and one era to another. And in Nightcaps instance, the cold or was
a big deal. I think that things played in Like the Nightcap director Donald
Kehoe, his signature move was getting leaks out of the military from pilots,
from people that would give him documents, give him stories. I mean,
let's face it, the FBI is not doing its job if it's not interested
in those leagues, and it doesn't have to be for the purpose of what
the leaks are about something else. The first thing that came to mind,
Martin when you mentioned that mister Stanford said the intelligence community had set up a
conference. It's now known that it's a it was a pretty common tactic at
one time to set up academic international conference, and that that was used by
foreign intelligence services as well as American intelligence services to try to recruit spies,
and it put the leaders in the field in physics, communications, photography,
whatever the conference was about, at events, and there were a number of
spy techniques tried, like in more recent times, it would be here,
here's my memory stick, unload my project into your laptop, and then when
you get the memory stick back, you've got everything off of the people's laptop,
or you're planning spyware and this kind of thing. And the conferences were
an opportunity for intelligence gathering and trying to recruit spies. So in the UFO
genre content X, we've long had a lot of people in the defense community
that take interest in UFOs, and that's understandable. You know, Martin Mary
out of contractors, people like that have a history of being interested in the
topic and what's flying around, so I could potentially see And that was the
first thing that came to mind with the story about mister Stanford, that the
intelligence community had set up a conference to try to see who maybe is targeting
these people that have security clearances in a professional capacity or any number of intelligence
or counter intelligence opportunities. As a matter of fact, in my book,
I discovered that doctor Donald Menzel mid twentieth century, PhD, worked with the
intelligence communities spent his life basically under surveillance because of the classified projects he worked
on. After some thirty years of FBI memos, about making sure that this
guy is not reporting to Russia, isn't in bed with China, or anything
like that. I found memos that they the Washington Field office or the Boston
Field office for the FBI was requesting from Director Hoover permission to groom doctor Menzel
as an informant or counter agent because he was still at that point in his
career traveling to China and going to international conferences. So it's real hard to
separate the intelligence aspects from the UFO steeplechase. And it's just something that most
people understandably don't even take into consideration when they're just heading off to a moof
ON meeting or an SCU meeting and they want to hear about what's the latest
UFO buzz, what's been going on. And those of us like me who
are not in that line of work, have not ever been employed in the
intelligence community. It's really a whole different way of looking at things to start
seeing it through that kind of lens. I remember again, I just brought
up Stan Freeman a little while ago, and I remember one of the times
I spoke with him, he was talking about doctor Menzelf from the Harvard Harvard
Astronomy. I believe that's right, and that he figured out in a roundabout
way that he did have a clearance, a security clearance, and was involved
in something. So that's kind of an interesting tie in, you know,
basically to it. Yes, it is. My research indicates that doctor Menzel
was involved in some applications of astronomy to spying and code breaking and sending codes
of all things. And it had to do with work he was doing about
the most advantageous time to send and intercept messages based on atmospheric conditions, and
that was just one of the things he did. And I also found some
interesting archives where he exchanged letters with CI director CIA director Hillencoder, who also
served ironically as the Nightcap chairman of the board for a few years, and
they had a debate about UFOs, and it became apparent in these letters that
Hellencoder was telling Menzel one thing and then he would tell Nightcap director Donald Kehoe
another thing. And so I found that interesting that Hillencoder seemed to be kind
of talking out of both sides of his mouth about what his position on UFOs
was. And also Menzel was purported to be one of the Majestic twelve the
MJ twelve, as was Hellencoder, and the letters between the two certainly put
that to bed that if the two of them were aware of any flying saucer
retrievals, they were sure playing the long game, and their letters so that
sixty years later when we read them we will think that they didn't know anything
about flying saucers. Interesting, Wow, Kehoe, What an interesting character he
was, wasn't he in He was in the navy, wasn't I'm trying to
remember what brand I believe. I believe Marines, And he was a pilot,
and he was an interesting character. He wrote extensively for pulp magazines before
he got involved with Niecap, and had attracted the attention of the FBI some
twenty years prior to his Niecap involved and in the nineteen fifties, so as
early as I think, like nineteen thirty five, he was attracting attention about
something or other. I tried to Foyia that and find out more, and
they were unable to locate the records. But the FBI was able to give
me documents that demonstrate that Director Hoover and his staff did not think highly of
Keyhoe's writing about the FBI and felt that things that Keyho was promoting were irresponsible,
Like at one point he had written that I think he wrote that the
Nazis had a plan to take over the Merchant Marines or something to that effect,
and that the FBI was aware of the plan. And of course that's
the kind of thing that would get Hoover's attention and that would certainly get on
his bad side. MM. But I thought he was up. I thought
he was an advocate. You know, he was really pushing for you know,
I mean like people do today, you know, let's let's talk about
this and you know, so that's another reason he was probably looked on,
you know, down upon. And I believe there's a Mike Wallace or some
I'm trying to remember a great interview with him that you can find, right,
that's correct. Kehoe was definitely what way today would call a disclose your
advocate. He very much believed in a UFO presence and thought that it was
and I thought that UFOs represented interplanetary spacecraft. One of my criticisms of Nightcap
was that they promoted themselves as a scientific research organization, and in many aspects
they were, but they also used it as somewhat of a facade to try
to deflect criticism, and they'd sent out a lot of things that would not
be a lot of material and literature that would not and should not be considered
in line with by definition scientific investigation. And Keyhoe, at least outwardly,
and I tend to think this is correct, became convinced that the FBI,
the CIA, the Air Force were hiding it's their knowledge of an extraterrestrial presence,
and he felt like the key to getting this proof and this knowledge was
through people leaking documents and through congressional hearings, much like we're seeing today.
There are a lot of parallels between the Nightcap saga of the nineteen sixties and
today. And Kehoe essentially became a lobbyist, whether he may have considered himself
that or not. And Nightcap successfully got congressional hearings that didn't turn out as
they had hoped they would. And there's a whole, you know, list
of different opinions on how and why that happened. That the bottom line is
people that want to believe are always going to play the cover up card,
and those of us that might be a bit more even handed or skeptical are
going to say, well, maybe that's so, but it hasn't been proven,
and if there is proof somewhere, it hasn't come out. And pretty
much every conceivable attempt has been made by a politician and a disclosure activist military
intelligence people. All of the things that we see happening today happen in spades
with NIECAP. That directors of intelligence agencies, career intelligence officers, CIA officers
were going on the record talking about their belief about flying saucers and were some
of that sincere I would think so, maybe most of it. I don't
think all of it was. I think there were there were mixed agendas,
and I tend to think so for what I was discussing earlier reasons. As
I mentioned earlier, that there was a lot of obstruction about the backgrounds of
the people that incorporated Nightcap. And the same way that we know now that
academic conferences can be used as an intelligence community tool, we also know now
that nonprofit corporations five oh one c three corporations such as NIECAP were commonly used
by intelligence agencies to distribute funds and to covertly move money around. And I
think that that might play into the story as well. I think when NIECAP
was incorporated by intelligence community assets, I think that they had some different ideas
about where it might go. And then that's back to how we were saying.
The particular change from one instance to the next. Sometimes they might be
looking for leaks. Sometimes they might be doing counter intelligence and trying to find
out what foreign adversaries are interested in making connections with these leaks. Sometimes they
might be planning disinformation about fabricated weapons systems that don't really exist. Like you
might be aware or your audience might be aware that James carry On has done
some good work and uncovered the misrepresentation of Project Seal in the late nineteen forties
that was misrepresented to the press to be an airborne weapon as powerful as the
atomic bomb, and carry On found in his research that in actuality had been
it had been shelved and dissolved like a year before it was being misrepresented to
the press. And I just think, you know, there is pick a
card, any card. You know, There's just there's at least fifty two
reasons of why the intelligence community might be interested in games like that from one
specific instance to the next. Now colonel or retired Colonel Joseph Bryan. The
third he was a bit was he a bit controversial? Was because there was
a rumor that he was definitely involved in the CIA or something right, Yes,
Colonel Brian was virtually certainly a CIA officers represented in the New York Times
and other media outlets, and a number of these people, like Joseph Brant
is one has been of great interest to historians over the years for reasons that
have nothing to do with UFOs, and that is because Colonel Brian and some
of the other Nightcap people played significant roles in American and global politics. Nicholas
de Rochefort is one that has been the subject of CIA lawsuits to try to
get records on him. That was an original Nightcap organizer, and like Colonel
Brian, was a expert in psychological warfare. And Colonel Brian was one who
was with Nightcap almost its entire life cycle, and he sat on the board
and had connections in the intelligence community that go back to the early nineteen fifties.
He reportedly worked in the officey of Policy Coordination. And as I've said,
my general thesis is there's this group that we can put directly with Nightcap
if we want to start letting me get manic and sticking pins all over the
wall like that meme that goes around. This Office of Policy Coordination just had
a whole crew of people that keep popping up during the nineteen fifties in the
CIA and the UFO community and had organizations linked to it that we're gathering information
for it and acting as assets abroad that were directly involved in incorporating and initially
operating Nightcap. I'm personally skeptical of the MJ twelve of papers, and also
the one signed by Eisenhower because that's the signature. I meanity it just I
mean, it's his signature, but it could have so easily been floated on
a copy, which that is it's not an original. But anyway, being
skeptical of all that, and also we can talk a little bit about Bill
Moore, But do you think there was actually some type of organization like MJ
twelve headed by these people like um Menzel and people like that in the spirit
the question, no, I do not U Were there meetings? Were there
discussions? Um? Could you really try to take a square peg and pound
it into a round hole somewhere or other. Probably maybe, UM, But
in the spirit of your question, do I think there was something resembling and
an elite task force that that that retrieved crashed alien spacecraft? I just you
know, would have no reason to believe that without further documentation, right,
And when this um, when this came out, going back to the papers,
when they came out, there were so many people that were really thinking
thinking it was you know, that's the smoking gun. You know, this
is this is definitely and all that. And you know, in recent years
or the last year or year or two, I would say, we have
the Wilson document. Have you looked into that? I mean, I personally
think that's kind of along the same line. You know, it's supposedly Eric
Davis was involved, but he won't say whether he was or not in it
took place in Las Vegas, and you know, it's another very similar it
seems like another similar type of situation. Have you looked into that at all?
I have the outskirts of it. I haven't done a deep dive,
and it's the very type of circumstance like I touched on earlier, that I
got to where I lost interest and all of these narratives that rely on trusting
someone about what they say saw or what they say someone told them. And
like I said, I used to go to conferences and I would talk to
and interview some of the intelligence community members and I learned some things from it.
But one of those things I learned was there's never a time coming that
they're just gonna say, well, you asked the question in the right way.
Let me get out my briefcase and I have those documents right here to
give you. Is just not coming, like like, what can anyone possibly
say that would matter? You know, like if Colonel John Alexander told me
unequivocally I saw this, that and the other end it exists. Well,
all I've got is a statement. What difference does it make? So we
have to get the documents, and we have to get the supporting evidence that
is available republic review and that qualified scientists put a pencil to it, and
it passes peer review, and it's not under uh, some some chain of
circumstances that these PhDs like to wink and say, I can't talk about that.
I'm just not even interested anymore. And I know we're kind of talking
about these subjects and this has some relevance to it. But Bill Moore,
he came out, you know, during he basically came out said that he
was working was it for the CIA? Who he was working for? Some
type of intelligence he I think he believed them to be connected to the CIA,
and that the Air Force, the Air Force Office of Special Investigations that
plays pretty heavily into the Nightcap saga as well, and more believed that if
he played ball and put some stories into the UFO community as he was given
to put that, then he would get the the goodies that they danced with
him and reward him with the kind of information he wanted. And eventually he
decided the reward wasn't coming, and he came clean with the whole story that
he had been acting as what he believed to be a disinformation mouthpiece for the
intelligence community. And so then we're left with which story do you want to
believe? You want to believe the one that he's saying he is coming clean,
or do you want to believe the one before he has his come to
Jesus moment and day of reckoning or uh, you know, it's just tough
when when someone says I'm a liar and I'm being honest. But now listen
to this, and uh, I tend to think Moore's story is corroborated enough
with the Paul Benowitz affair and things like that that it looks pretty solid.
There was certainly shenanigans going on. It's certainly a concerning story with Richard Dodi
and the whole chain of events. But uh, again we're just left with
people made a lot of statements about stuff, and as my buddy Tim Bannal
says, show me the alien. Just show me the alien. You know.
Pretty funny. Um, yep. So someone put in here, let's
see what do you think about the Halt memo? Have you? I mean,
that's Charles Halt wrote about Randelsham Force. You know he basically I think
he actually put in the wrong date, something like, I know, something
like that had to do with you know, radar, they were looking into
it. But basically this was he has supposedly happened early morning on the twenty
seventh of December nineteen eighty and he talks about you know, the security seeing
this triangle shape ufl blah blah blah. So someone just didn't chat, just
wanted to know what you thought about that memo. Have you ever looked at
it? My general opinion on Randallshim is that it's a fascinating case. I
have not gone into all of the minutia. It's not one of the cases
I have picked up the gauntlet. I've felt like enough talented, competent people
have. And my general opinion on it is that it's another in a long
line of fantastic UFO stories that happen to center around a bunch of military people.
And so so we can take that domain whatever we want it domain,
and again we have a story that something happened, and I think that's just
kind of the long and the short of it. Yeah, Yeah, it's
interesting. I've talked to a number of people involved, and it is,
uh, you know, it's kind of convoluted with all you know, the
different witnesses. That nineteen eighty goes back a long time now, and your
memory is not. Everyone's memory falters a little as they rethink and retell the
stories over the years. So yeah, as time further away we get from
any of these things, you know, talking about Roswell way back that that's
so long ago. Um, you know, I don't know if we'll ever
know exactly what happened there, there's there's you know, often people will say,
why do you even talk about that case? Um, you know,
as if nothing you know, knew could ever come about, and most likely
it won't at this point. Yeah. Yeah, I'm definitely on the same
page with you there, And in fact, I think with the whole memory
thing. Um, one of the criticisms I would make of the UFO saying
is that we tend to skip the basics, like we were saying about understanding
the intelligence community, and want to go for the good stuff. You know,
show me the alien. Where's the flying saucer in this story? Um?
Just just tell me, you know what did you see? That kind
of stuff? When I was interested enough in this that I read arguably an
inordinate amount of material on the peripheral topics like memory and hypnosis as a memory
retrieval tool and things like that, and you're you're absolutely just hitting the nail
on the head there, Martin. That I, for instance, had a
UFO siding many years ago, and from what I've read about memory, I'm
to the point where I like, really don't even want to talk about it
with people and stuff, because I probably don't know what happened, all right,
So now we're going to talk about it. That's right. Now.
You end up, you end up with a memory of telling the story.
That's exactly I've been doing. I've talked about this on this show a few
times that I myself too, have been looking into memory. And you know,
you you, you're exactly right. You start piecing back what you Each
time you think of something, you're rebuilding it in your head. You're rebuilding
it in your mind, and you're rebuilding it from what you remembered the last
time you told it, you know. So it's uh, it is.
It is very faltering. You know. I thought I had my uf host
sighting. I've told on this this show many times. It was not real
exciting. But I'd like to think that I have it accurately. But you
know, perhaps I don't, you know, And I remember recently I was
thinking, was that two thousand and six or two thousand and seven? I
wasn't you know? So, but I do, honestly, even though you
don't want to tell it, I do want to hear about your UFO story.
If you know, I was a child in Charlotte, North Carolina,
and I saw something that um it's hard to describe. We might describe it
as a v or or protractor shaped that was spinning, and so as an
adult, I think back it was nighttime. I think back and think,
Okay, I guess maybe the way lights were hitting an object made it look
like something spinning in that way, trying to, you know, get my
mind wrapped around what it might have been. And at this point in my
life, it just kind of come to the realization, I don't know,
and I'm just okay with I don't know what I saw, and that's just
kind of how it has to be. And the more we talk about these
things, then the more people are entitled to want to ask questions and Okay,
well, what where were you, what was the date, Let's look
at airplane traffic, let's look at weather forecast, And then you start having
people trying to tell you what happened, and it should come as no surprise.
It often tends to be what they think happened to them that they start
telling you, yeah, is what you witnessed. And that's actually how I
got into a lot of the skeptical side of my points of view was experiencing
that there can be such a feeling of people pulling on each arm in a
different direction in the UFO genre to try to get you in the alien camp
or the interdimensional camp, or the mind control camp, or you know that
what was it that happened? And you know, And then there's people that
would say, I don't know you you saw a weather balloon with lights bouncing
off at how should I know? And so kind of back to where we
started. I really empathize with people and want to give them their space for
their self discovery. And at the same time, the skeptics have that right
to to say, I don't know if somebody's jumping out here saying they've got
material from a interplanetary or interdimensional spacecraft that they're doing tests on. That requires
a little more than just you know, anecdotal personal stories, you know,
right, So if you're just joining us live now, we're on with Jack
Brewer, and I did want to announce that this is our four hundred and
ninety ninth show, so that means next week is five hundred and next week's
gonna be a call in show. So I want an everyone that's listening to
this to get ready to call in next week. And if we Bill's probably
going to help me out if we don't, if we have some dead space,
but get your questions ready for next week. It's a call in show.
Should be a lot of fun. Speaking of that, in about twenty
minutes, we'll be opening up the phone lines. If you have any questions
for our guests this evening. Jack, here's a question someone, Are you
even familiar with the term hitchhiker effect? I am familiar. Yeah, so
someone to know if you had anything like that with your experience. I guess
a lot of people maintain that they are having these things kind of follow them,
which is kind of interesting. I think that kind of falls into a
belief system. Personally, I do not think that I have some type of
phenomenon, any supernatural phenomenon in my life. I would not want to debate
people that believe they do. If that's what they want to go with,
farbe it from me to argue it, as long as they don't want to
impose that belief on me. I think we're really looking at like two different
sets of circumstances here, Martin In that there's hanging out with friends late night
at Denny's and somebody tells you about something that happened to them once, and
you're giving them emotional support for their belief system. Then there are people that
want to take podiums at quote conferences unquote and present their material as researchers,
And then we, as researchers or in interested public, have the right and
the responsibility to fact check it and hold them responsible for the assertions they make
if they're uh assertions do not hold up to the evidence they like, if
the evidence they presented is not in proportion to UH the and and in my
opinion, the hitchhiker effect falls into that category. I understand it's long been
a part of the UFO lore, the multiple abductions in families, the multiple
experiences. And I wouldn't argue if someone has that belief in a religious or
spiritual or personal context, but if you want to present it to me as
a researcher happening in an objective reality, I would want to see the specific
data that shows cause and effect there I don't think I'm certain has not been
established. Yeah, it seems like that would be kind of a nightmare,
you know, I mean, if you think about it, you know,
I mean, just a terrible thing to think you're done with something, and
then something keeps happening and it gets really existential if we let it. You
know, like I got a phone call, I got in my car,
I drove to the grocery store, I got another phone call. Well,
are not related in the least and in the grand scheme of things, everything's
directly related and is on a cause and effect timeline. So you know how
existential and philosophical do we want to get? Or like I say, are
we going to stick to in a research recognized by the professional research community and
those kinds of standards of evidence, Can you show me the chain of cause
and effect that these circumstances are directly related? Right? Someone wants This is
a question that I often ask myself, is just for an opinion, and
that is, do you believe that it's probably some of these UFOs are otherworldly
devices? I ask? I ask in general that question, like what do
you think that people might be seeing if it's not explainable in our terms,
that if it's not something that we can explain from here. I'm smiling because
my first thought was just you know, well my opinion, no, I
don't think so, And then I thought, and then the host will go,
well, thanks for joining us. We'll we'll move along to somebody else
that like David Letterman said, ones, maybe I can come over to your
house and chew gum sometime. I remember he said that to uh, I'm
trying to remember. That was U Rivers. No, there was yeah,
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, coming in an interview, I
remember, yeah, yeah, that was bizarre. Yeah. So no,
I don't think it it's probable. I think there's a lot of explanations for
UFOs. I think there's a whole lot of them. Um, exotic classified
aircraft, misidentifications of identifiable flying objects, weather phenomena, just general tricks on
your eyes. Are some of them representations of some kind of yet do be
better understood phenomena? Well, the Brown Mountain lights, the work being done
in Hesdalen might lead us to think that is the case. I wouldn't rule
it out. I don't think that's what critical thinking and healthy skepticism is about.
But I think it's a very small percentage of the cases that we're looking
at. And that's just my opinion. Well, you know, there are
some cases, and I even brought this up last week. You know,
the Ariel school incident in South Africa. To me, that's an incredible case.
Um. Then there's you know, the two thousand and four tik Tak
with military involved. Once again military but with a lot of data that is
very hard to explain. Some people claim that they think it may be,
as you said, something military, but that doesn't really fit in the realm
of what happened there. So yeah, I think there's I'm never saying that
I know what these things are, and I tell people if they're interested in,
um, you know, paying attention to the subject. If someone says
they know what it is, then run, you know, because I don't
think anyone has the real answer, you know, to what it to what
it really is at this point for all of them, some of them.
I'm glad when things can get explained as to what they are. Myself,
when someone figures it out. I mean, I myself. I brought this
up recently. I'll just put it up as just a quick little clip.
But um, I thought I was seeing a UFO right here in the play
right now, and what it really is if you're looking, it's hard to
see this. It looks like a disk here and then all of a sudden
you see it goes sideways and then you see two and it kind of disappears
and they and they both come back and what it was as it got closer,
it was an airplane that had a banner behind it, and it was
turning around. And I had just got to Miami, and I thought for
sure I was seeing myself a UFO right off the bat As soon as I
got to where I was like, oh my god. But yeah, it's
I like when those things can be explained. I mean, it would be
really amazing if it was unexplainable, but that one, you know, Yes,
the banner airplanes are are a big one. I've seen clips over the
years that looked absolutely fascinating, and then they were able to correlate it with
a flight pattern of a plane with a banner, and then when you look
at it, when you're told what it is, you can kind of see
it. Yeah. But yeah, um, I had a similar experience once
with You've heard that people mistake birds a night for UFOs, Yes, And
I remember they used to tell us that at the planetarium when we were kids,
and I was like, what kind of idiot you know mistakes a goose
for the mothership? You know? And uh, yeah, yeah, like,
oh, I thought I saw a star cruiser from another solar system.
My bad, It's just a dub, you know. Yeah. And then
one night, as they say, I'm walking across the parking and out of
the corner of my eye, I see what, for all the world looks
like a saucer shaped craft going at an incredible speed, all the way across
the sky. And fortunately, at the angle I was standing, I was
able to see for a brief instant when the when this bird flew out of
the light that was reflecting on its belly, looking like a saucer shape,
I saw for an instant as it flew through the dark and then on out
of sight, and it was only you know, maybe sixty seventy feet off
the ground. And because and I actually thought, it's kind of ironic.
I've spent so much more time looking at clips and photos of saucers that my
mind immediately goes, too, must be a saucer eight miles high flying at
an incredible rate of speed, rather than a bird seventy five feet at the
air, you know, headed home with some dinner or whatever it was doing.
And it Yeah, I mean, who knows how many people like I
was saying, you know, whatever I saw when I was a kid just
becomes a lifelong quest to find the answer to this mystery. That almost is
like a karmic joke, like you know, ah, could could even be
considered a cruel joke if it was just something mundane like that. But again,
you know, existentialism in the grand scheme of things, If it helps
us with our own self discovery, well then you know whatever it is that
does the trick. I guess right, I was sent people. A lot
of people will send me their UFO video clips, not really the person to
send that to. And I have a friend, Mark D'Antonio, that is
a person to send that too, but he's very busy, you know,
people send him things all the time. But I do get a lot of
clips and recently I had one sent to me and I figured out that it
was a bird, you know what I mean. And but the person did
not really want to hear that, you know, and seemed to get pretty
pretty upset at me by calling it a bird. But I could clearly see
after I blew it up on my I have a big screen, I blew
it up. You could easily see that it was a bird and it was
just the angle. It was that you couldn't see the wings flapping. You
know. That's it's always about angles and light reflection, and a lot of
times you'll see birds at a very high altitude that are catching the sunlight from
an angle and they'll look like orbs. So there's a lot of times birds
do look very mysterious, and so yeah, we all have to be careful
of what we're looking at. Yes, and what you experienced is another aspect
the detrimental side of UFO investigation and investigating reports of what we might call high
strangeness alien abduction for lack of a better term that it. People often don't
want to hear what it is that we might as researchers actually think happened,
and I think as witnesses we have some responsibility then, like how I said,
I really don't want to talk a lot about my UFO siding. I
have a responsibility to decide am I looking for emotional support or am I looking
for investigative support? What kind of support am I looking for? Because they're
completely different, and as investigators, we have the responsibilities to make clear what
we're willing to give, and it's very difficult to try to be someone's friend
and an objective investigator and give them emotional support and then also be honest to
them when we need to that. I think you know that these eighteen things,
you think we're all strange, like at least fifteen of them. I
think you're just kind of lumping in with a couple of things. You know,
again, we don't know what the cause and effect is and it can
get very challenging, and as both investigators and witnesses, we have responsibilities to
clarify what we're looking for from a person and if we're able to give it
or if they're able to give it. I think, hmm, here's a
question from Kelly Kid what do you think about the skin Walker ranch? And
this can nicely segue into something you sent me earlier today. Yes, I
M My general thinking about the skin Walker ranch is I know, maybe I'm
not very interested, but I'm predictable. I'm kind of a broken record about
again, as Banal says, show me the alien is the short answer for
I've heard data is being scientifically catalogued for forty years and I've yet to see
a coherent, cogent representation of what any of it is. Or what it's
supposed to tell me. So until that time comes, I have really no
choice but to shrug my shoulders and say the best you can do is to
spend judgment. And if people want to start being cynical and critical, I
think they have a right. What Martin is alluding to that I told them
about earlier is just yesterday I got some documents back from the Defense Intelligence Agency,
the DA that was reportedly the the agency that contracted the Advanced Aerospace Weapon
System applic Location Program, which I think many of us came to know as
a SAP. UH it's the Pentagon UFO program, or at least one aspect
of it, and the d I A. M. H gave me verification
through um some FOIA documents that Bigelow Aerospace did in fact get an award for
the as AP project and that they they got the grant UM, as reported
by Harry Reid and h interesting aspects of the Foyer release that you can see.
You can access all of the documents and read my blog post about it
at my blog The UFO Trail. Interesting aspects about it include that there were
people affiliated with the project hyping it up and saying how effective it was at
what we now know was the same time that it was being funding was being
resisted by the Department of Defense, the d IA, the Department of Homeland
Security, and uh, there's some different ways we could take different things we
could take away from that. As we mentioned earlier, there's certainly an aspect
of it that's among what we might call a credulous crowd that is always going
to say they were onto something and the government's hiding it. And then there's
a skeptical crowd that that might say the funding review boards that would give out
funding to continue these projects was apparently more difficult to convince than some of the
journalists that ran with the story. And then there are some more middle of
the road that might say, uh, well it got some money, and
it did get funded, Bigelow did get funding, and we need to see
if anything significant came of this. There is nothing in the documents that would
specifically indicate it was about UFOs or UAP as compared to weapons applications programs.
The the theoretical papers that have already been discussed widely, and another interesting aspect
of it, something that jumped out at me Martin was one of the tracks
that the DA gave me says that Bigelow's Aerospace was to be paid ten million
dollars from the National Security Agency. And I don't know exactly why checks would
be cut from the NSA if it was a d I A project. I'm
not familiar enough with their protocol and with their protocol in two thousand and nine
two ten to know why that might be. I did remember, though,
there have long been rumors that the NSA was involved at Skinwalker Ranch, and
so I kind of wondered if this at least is some of the source of
where some of these rumors come from. Well, it's it's all interesting.
And do you think that there is the possibility that there's some documents that have
just not been found yet or do you think that, Yes, I anticipate
that DIA will be giving us a significant amount in a document release sometime after
the end of the year. They continue to make me and other Foyer researchers
aware that a number of our FOIA requests on documents pertaining to a TIP and
as SAPP and general UFO program stuff like any contracts they had deliverables reports that
were filed. A lot of those foias remain open, and the d IA
tells us that sometime around the end of the year they plan to release the
material that they have been reviewing, and at that point in time they will
post it the d I A will post it at their FOIA online reading room.
Interesting, and I saw documents recently come out through John Greenwald's Black Fault.
Does this have anything to do with Are they related in any type of
week? Probably so, John. He has done a lot of foilier work
on the Pentagon programs, So if it's d IA and Biggelow, it probably
is related. Yes. Yeah, He's been doing such a great work for
so many years, pretty amazing since he was a young sixteen years old or
something like that, right when he started to which is pretty amazing. And
uh, yeah that I think that website gets. I forget how many views
per day, but it's it's amazing how many people come to that every single
day and look for something. You know. I don't know how many documents
are on there, but it's I've certainly used it as a source. He
has done admirable work with the FLIA right right, And it's not an easy
thing to do, you know, from what I understand, you have to
be very precise, and there's so many ways your requests can be rejected,
and you have to be very specific at what you're want wanting, and they
can jump right over the topic you want if you say it in some type
of unusual way or whatever. Yes, and in best case scenarios, it
can even take years, sometimes not sometimes a few weeks, depending on what
it is that we ask for. But the general way to do it is
request a lot of stuff regularly. I do, maybe I don't know.
I probably average two or three requests a week, and then over time you
get to where you're getting something once a week or so, like after two
or three years, you're you're getting something to read and look at. And
I don't want to look for just arbitrary things like I don't want to just
be a thorn in their side. So like Nightcap, I probably have oh
gosh, probably eighty different Foyer requests on one person or another or a board
they were affiliated with, or an office of the CIA, And so as
those continue to come in, I'll keep posting them. But yeah, if
you just send one request and wait for four years to see what they say,
it can be very uninteresting that way. Yeah, Okay, the lines
are open. The phone number is eight five five four seven two five four
eight three. Bill is standing by if you'd like to call in for our
guests tonight and don't forget next week is all calls in. But if you
like to call in, please give us a ring. Bill will be standing
by. We have bounced all over the place, but let's talk now.
You can get into your other book a little bit more if you'd like to
discuss more of what that's about. Sure um. I mentioned a couple of
times that the UFO community may be better called the UFO subculture, has a
tendency to try to pull people into one camp or other and persuade people it
can It can become a lot like lobbying efforts or even rooting for a favorite
sports team or something, where it becomes ideological and not so much about often
rarely about credible research that meets professional research standards. And I felt like in
the grades had been framed that I had some things to say that that needed
to be said about topics such as hypnosis as a memory retrieval tool, and
some of the the way that researchers were put on pedestals and not questioned about
their tactics and can continue by a certain segment of the community that doesn't understand
memory, that doesn't understand the damage that can be done to people that use
memory retrieval techniques to try to hammer at a single memory. From twenty thirty
forty five years ago, and I started getting into as well in that book,
the way that the intelligence community overlaps into the UFO genre, and there
there's a disturbing similarity between UFO hypnotism and the satanic panic memory retrieval and how
people were accused of just terrible things that they didn't do, and the intelligence
community use of hypnosis as an interrogation tool, and we tend to think that
that stopped around the MK Ultra era, maybe during the mid seventies, but
there's plenty of evidence that it continues to be used hypnotesis as an interrogation technique
in the intelligence community and as a way to try to influence people. And
so I explore that, and I explore some specific cases, like, like
we mentioned earlier, the Bill Moore case, but there were other people during
that era as well that had strange interactions with the Air Force Office of Special
Investigations and that seemed to have been set up to some extent. Simone Mendez
is who I'm talking about, and I explore her case and a few other
cases as well in specifics that we again, we just find this overlap with
the intelligence community that it I find it hard to believe that their primary concern
is something about UFOs or or extraterrestrials or something of that nature in these different
cases. M here's a question from Jackson, jack what for your document has
made the biggest impression on your work within for you? That's a good question.
The first one that comes to mind is one of the things that made
me say, Okay, I'm just gonna go with a book about NYECAP was
FOIA documents I got from the FBI on Nicholas Droque for who was almost certainly
a CIA asset and was heavily involved in the China lobby in nineteen fifties Washington,
DC, and was in a circle of friends at the highest highest levels
of government. When the FBI was doing their investigative review on him, they
went all the way to the Joint Chiefs of Staff for statements on him because
he knew people there. And then this guy for whatever reasons was a Nightcap
organizer and one of the first people to work in Nightcap. And the FOIA
document that I got that I thought was really interesting was that while the Washington
Field office was doing an investigation on rope For, they sent Director Hoover a
memo that is heavily redacted, heavily blacked out, that states that they talked
to a confidential informant about rope and that the information was given to them under
the agreement that it was not to be shared with other agencies or investigators or
even outside of Hoover's office. And so when the Washington FBI man sent this
to Hoover with his reports, he sent copies of the reports for the other
offices, but only this one letter to Hoover, and the information is blacked
out that the informant gave him about Ropefort, and very interestingly, this was
the month after Nightcap was incorporated. It was November nineteen fifty six, during
the time Ropefort was working with Nightcap. I requested a review of the document
for further disclosure, and the FBI conducted the review but declined to offer any
further information on it, and so that really intrigued me, and I began
looking more and more into Ropeford and his associates that were involved in incorporating and
launching Nightcap. Now what caused Nightcap to basically fall apart in nineteen eighty I
saw there was a lot of infighting. Do you think any of that was
related to the intelligence community. Well, there were always people linked to,
if not directly employed with the CIA in the final years of NIECAP on its
board, managing it, taking care of phone calls, things like that.
The demise of NIECAP really started in nineteen sixty nine when they removed Donald Kehoe
and Gordon Lore from their positions and they put some other people in and morale
was bad. They tried to hang on during the seventies and even did some
reasonably interesting investigations and printed some materials that were reasonably interesting, but it never
had the boots on the ground enthusiasm that the mid nineteen sixties NIECAP had,
and by the nineteen eighties was little more than just a name on paper,
and I think it was nineteen eighty two was actually sold to the Center for
UFO Studies and the Alan Jay Allan Heineck group. But even in the nineteen
sixties, Keyhoe was starting to lose his swagger with Nightcap, and when the
point came that the congressional hearings and a UFO study conducted at the University of
Colorado known as the Condon Report didn't go the way Keyhoe and Niecap wanted.
Some people feel like that the CIA said, Okay, now's our chance,
let's stop this shenanigans. Other people feel like Kehoe kind of dug his own
grave, and that people were tired of bashing the Air Force, bashing the
CIA. Remember, that was a point in time that patriotic Americans wanted to
be behind the FBI and the Air Force, and a much different time.
I tend to think a little of all of that's involved. If the CIA
launched Nightcap, which I'm pretty thoroughly convinced it did, and I think there
were people working with Nightcap that didn't need to be read into that information,
I think Donald Kehoe was probably one of them. I think Gordon lore was.
I think that their intentions were sincere and that they were trying to do
good work. I just feel like that if the CIA launched the organization,
then it wouldn't have just thrown it to the curb over the years, and
it was not going to leave it up to chance for how it played out.
And I think that's why CI Associates were brought in in the seventies to
act as president and remain on the board and just kind of keep it officially
opened if other opportunities came along that were needed. But at some point they
just dissolved the organization and it might be interesting to see the timeline of what
was going on and move on with the intelligence organizations. And as these guys
aged out, and they just kind of shuddered nightcap if then we were kicking
back into gear with the Avarey and Bill Moore and his crew and move on
in groups like that. So someone just wrote in the chat that they can't
get through in the phone line. So hopefully Bill is listening, so keep
trying. So earlier you said that you did not know. Oh the line's
not working. Okay, I just see the text. Yeah, all right,
well maybe it is. I'm not sure what's going on anyway. Um,
you said you didn't know about a specific case because you didn't throw down
the gauntlet on it. Do you have any cases you've thrown the gauntlet down
on um somewhat I do. Nightcap in general would be one in the grades
had been aimed. I went pretty hard into the Emma Woods case. I
know about that one, yeah, and I dissected it pretty heavily. I
was pretty interested in Carol Raney and Bud Hopkins is association, and I went
through it as well. The Leah Hailey case was fascinating to me, and
again by this point in my research into in two thousands and I published that
book in two thousand and six. I was interested in social circumstances, and
I wasn't expecting to find a really peculiar, high strangeness type of thing as
much as I was interested in what can we established happened, like like we're
never gonna know, you know, what someone thinks they saw or that kind
of thing, but we can establish that this researcher called this person on this
date and they said this, and then they met with this person and this
intelligence community member had this to say, and this intelligence community person told the
newspaper this about Leah Haley and things like that. That interested me and I
took a deep dive into that, and thus the name of the book.
The Grays had been framed exploitation in the UFO community is that whatever the reasons
that some of these people did find themselves interacting with researchers that we question their
their motives or members of the intelligence community that their agenda is unclear, it's
clear enough that the circumstances were exploited for reasons that we often can't really identify.
Sometimes it seems apparent enough, other times it's less so, and we
seem to almost be on this spend cycle pardon the pun in ufology, that
this just keeps happening, that PhDs, intelligence community members, seemingly sincere people
get caught in this wave of saying extraordinary things and the stuff never really pans
out, and then at some point we're just looking back at it and some
new group is doing it again, and just seems to happen over and over,
and to me, that is probably most disappointing among the academics. Because
the intelligence community people may be doing their jobs to some extent, or at
least in some circumstances, whatever that propaganda or public relations campaign or that job
may be. The people that see the UFO genre as I originally did,
through a lens of wow. I wonder what these flying saucers are I wonder
what happened to Betty and Barney Hill and things like that, are understandably just
trying to figure out and learn more about what's going on. So I think
I hold most responsible the academics that were educated to no better, and they
know the professional research process, and they understand when they are and when they
are not talking out their rear end for lack of a better term, and
so that's the people that I think I hold most responsible for. It is
the academics that don't put up or shut up, but we'll keep doing interviews
and talking about all this exciting stuff that they're hoping to find. And Okay,
so maybe they're maybe they're just speculating, and they're entitled to like anyone
else. But a problem with that is, like any story like that,
the correction doesn't get near the FaceTime that the initial fantastic claim does. And
when they come along with a paper five years from now that says, um,
never mind, it wasn't so fantastic, there are still people clinging to
the beliefs that were floated and asserted in the first place. Okay, um,
yeah, So I apologize to the people that the phone line was not
working, thanks for trying to call in, And someone mentioned what you thought
about you know, the New Fork the call in center. Now, that's
not something that would ever be infiltrated something like that. I mean, that's
just a single guy, Peter Davenport, basically taking in reports. So nothing.
My interactions directly with mister Davenport have always been good. He's been helpful
when I've asked him about reports. I could say more so than the mutual
UFO network. He's at least willing to give a response for a blog post.
He's willing to direct me to reports that were filed. Um. I
haven't gotten that same kind of uhum collaboration or assistance from other groups like moufon.
So I don't have anything um negative to say about about New Fork or
mister Davenport. UM. I can certainly understand where in his day that that
was an idea of something to do, and um, like you were saying
about the persistence of researchers, he stuck with it and he kept with it
for many years. Right. There's another question that came come up to signore
the last part. It says, Jack, what what has been your biggest
takeaway for today from your research on the UFO intelh history, like Nightcap,
that there is an undeniable element of the intelligence community on an ongoing basis in
the UFO subculture. As I mentioned earlier, I think the reasons change from
one specific instance to the next, but I think it's largely misunderstood by the
public at large and the people like myself that come into this wanting to learn
more about UFOs. I don't think that we understand the extent that the intelligence
community is involved in it and manipulating it, and even people that will come
in and be at it for a few years often don't understand the extent of
what happened twenty years ago and thirty years ago and forty years ago, and
how repetitive it is. And there's see, there's an element, as I
was saying about academics and intelligence members, there's an element of deception there that
while they may not they may or may not allude to it's never happened before
and that stuff happening now is new. But by not educating their following about
what's taken place in the past, there's a certain element of deception and lying
through omission, and some outright misrepresent circumstances and then don't correct them. So
that would be my main takeaway is I wouldn't rule out that there's some unusual
phenomena that is yet to be better understood, but it is undeniable that the
intelligence community has had a front row seat in the way the topic is massaged
and interpreted by the public since the very outset of the modern UFO phenomenon in
the nineteen forties. It's all very interesting. We have two questions. We
only have three minutes left. We'll see if you can get these answered.
Have you ever heard of the term UCT un correlated targets? It's a NORAD's
acronym for the phenomenon. I never heard that before, not off the top
of my head. If I've come across it, it didn't resonate with me
for some reason. Yeah, we don't need other acronyms really, UAP and
the new thing that Congress I mean that the government has set up has so
many letters, and we have to make up a funny word for that one.
I don't know if you saw that. It's a big Yeah, it's
crazy insane. Yeah. Um, here's another question. Here are these intelligence
agencies responsible military or civilian or both into what degree. Um, they're they're
military, I mean they're not civilian, they're their government, right, Yeah,
And it would depend on specifically what we're talking about. Um Like in
nyecap uh, the CIA certainly had an interest in the launching of the organization,
and it had relationships with civilian groups um that that one was called Council
Service and was a public relations firm. Another was a government agency called the
Economic Cooperation Agency that acted as an asset for the CIA. And I think
that that's a really common theme. I know it is in the intelligence community
bag of tools to have government agencies acting on its behalf and assets and key
positions that it can count on for favors and information. All Right, well
we've made it. We did the whole show, and I do want to
apologize to the people that were trying to call in and considering next week's a
call in show. Hopefully that will be fixed. But thank you so much,
Chack. It's always been a pleasure. I like your level headedness and
your opinions are very good in myon How do you like that? Thank you
very much for having me. It's my pleasure and I appreciate it. Martin.
All right, you take care now and we'll talk soon. All right,
everyone, So that's it for the show tonight. Thank you so much.
Don't forget next week, get your well. We can talk about anything,
talk about a UFO sighting you want to. You have some questions,
we're taking calls and it's just a call in show only next week or for
a five hundred show. Thank you so much, and remember to keep your
eyes to the sky. H