WEBVTT 1 00:00:27.679 --> 00:00:30.800 Hello, and welcome to the show. I'm Martin Willisher host. We have 2 00:00:30.879 --> 00:00:34.560 a great show this evening for you. And just a minute, we have 3 00:00:35.439 --> 00:00:42.280 Ted Row He's a special guest that kind of last minute, and we're gonna 4 00:00:42.320 --> 00:00:46.000 be talking about I'm gonna make things real confusing for our going tonight. We're 5 00:00:46.000 --> 00:00:51.119 gonna be talking about narcap a little bit. But no, he's got some 6 00:00:51.200 --> 00:00:54.320 things to announce. And the only reason I bring that up is because he's 7 00:00:54.320 --> 00:00:58.439 involved with that. But tonight later on, the main guest is Jack Brewer. 8 00:00:58.479 --> 00:01:03.840 He's gonna be talking about eyecap and some other things as well. So 9 00:01:03.680 --> 00:01:08.680 I know all these all these things we have to keep track of what means 10 00:01:08.719 --> 00:01:14.200 what and all that. And so our guest has a great blog called the 11 00:01:14.280 --> 00:01:19.239 UFO Trail blogspot dot com and lots of information over there. Some people call 12 00:01:19.319 --> 00:01:23.920 him a skeptic. I think he's looking at we can call him a skeptic. 13 00:01:23.959 --> 00:01:26.840 I've never shy away from having a skeptic on the show. I don't 14 00:01:26.879 --> 00:01:30.439 particularly like debunkers. I don't call him a debunker. But anyway, Jack 15 00:01:30.439 --> 00:01:34.719 brew is a great guy coming up, and I want to say we have 16 00:01:34.760 --> 00:01:42.239 two shows this week Thursday afternoon on YouTube and Facebook only is Mark Allie and 17 00:01:42.239 --> 00:01:46.799 he's gonna be talking about crystal skulls, which I've always had a fascination with. 18 00:01:47.840 --> 00:01:49.680 I went to Expo sixty seven, you know, I think it was 19 00:01:49.719 --> 00:01:55.239 about ten years after it was still open up in Quebec, Canada, and 20 00:01:55.319 --> 00:01:59.359 I saw a crystal skull there and I was totally mesmerized by it. And 21 00:02:00.079 --> 00:02:06.120 some of them came from Mayan ruins. I'm not sure where this where these 22 00:02:06.599 --> 00:02:09.919 come from exactly. I know that there was a hoax out there at one 23 00:02:09.960 --> 00:02:14.680 time. Something is supposed to be ancient. Anyway, check out that's on 24 00:02:14.719 --> 00:02:21.360 the UFO. I mean, it's on our YouTube channel only, and it's 25 00:02:21.439 --> 00:02:24.800 live streaming this Thursday at three pm Mark Ali. And if you want to 26 00:02:24.840 --> 00:02:31.080 get notifications on YouTube, simply just subscribe to our channel and click the notification 27 00:02:31.120 --> 00:02:37.439 bell on the side. So this week's blog is taken aboard a UFO and 28 00:02:37.599 --> 00:02:42.319 turned into a mutant. Now this is a story. Charles Lear, who 29 00:02:42.360 --> 00:02:46.960 does writes our blogs, you know, talks a lot about people are you 30 00:02:46.000 --> 00:02:51.360 know, have these incredible stories and not always he doesn't always talk about things 31 00:02:51.360 --> 00:02:54.719 that are factual because of course a lot of this stuff are it can't be 32 00:02:54.800 --> 00:03:00.080 proven other than something happening. Anyway, It's a good read and check it 33 00:03:00.080 --> 00:03:01.759 out. It's kind of a short blog. But he also has a follow 34 00:03:01.879 --> 00:03:07.240 up on the update of Irma Rick the story of the woman supposedly saying she 35 00:03:07.360 --> 00:03:14.560 was transported by a UFO in Brazil. I think it was no Argentina. 36 00:03:14.599 --> 00:03:19.919 I'm sorry she was supposedly transported in the middle of the night, sixty miles 37 00:03:19.960 --> 00:03:23.479 showed up with you know where. She couldn't have walked that far. Who 38 00:03:23.479 --> 00:03:27.199 knows whatever happened. It's an interesting story, and she certainly doesn't look like 39 00:03:27.240 --> 00:03:30.080 someone that could have. While I shouldn't say it that way, she would 40 00:03:30.120 --> 00:03:34.879 have a hard time walking that far, anyone would, but I'll better just 41 00:03:35.000 --> 00:03:38.840 leave it at that and anyway, So check out those blogs, and thank 42 00:03:38.919 --> 00:03:43.719 you everyone who supports the show. I really appreciate it. I could not 43 00:03:43.840 --> 00:03:46.560 do that without you. I'm going to be on the road in a little 44 00:03:46.560 --> 00:03:50.199 while. I'm not going to be doing the show from the road for a 45 00:03:50.240 --> 00:03:53.000 little bit, and a lot of things coming up, a lot of great 46 00:03:53.159 --> 00:03:54.680 guests coming up, and all that. For right now, I'm going to 47 00:03:54.719 --> 00:04:00.000 bring in Ted row. He is in the Big Island over in Hawaii. 48 00:04:00.159 --> 00:04:03.319 He welcome to the show again, Ted, thank you, Martin. Hello 49 00:04:03.400 --> 00:04:09.080 everybody. Yeah, and we see are we seeing like mister Fogg behind you? 50 00:04:09.159 --> 00:04:13.879 Is that what that is? Yeah? Probably we've got some weather coming 51 00:04:13.879 --> 00:04:17.879 through. It's it rains where I'm at a year, so yeah, it's 52 00:04:17.879 --> 00:04:20.959 like you can count on the rain every day, right every day. And 53 00:04:21.079 --> 00:04:25.839 this is actually a dry moment. So so you got it, You got 54 00:04:25.839 --> 00:04:29.600 it right now, we better hurry up, so you send me a text. 55 00:04:29.759 --> 00:04:32.519 I mean, you have kind of an interesting announcement related to the UFO 56 00:04:32.600 --> 00:04:38.480 topic and and something you said it is pretty incredible after fifty years or something 57 00:04:38.480 --> 00:04:41.639 like that, and I'd love for you to spill it and tell us what's 58 00:04:41.639 --> 00:04:46.920 going on. Well. Sure. The American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics contacted 59 00:04:46.920 --> 00:04:54.360 me right after the OD and I report was released last June and invited me 60 00:04:54.399 --> 00:05:00.319 to join a small group of speakers at their AB twenty one conference to advocate 61 00:05:00.399 --> 00:05:03.600 for the scientific study of UAP. And we did that, and then about 62 00:05:03.639 --> 00:05:08.879 a month later they called us back and invited us to form into a development 63 00:05:08.879 --> 00:05:15.879 team to prepare a function inside of AIAA that would address UAP and aviation safety 64 00:05:16.160 --> 00:05:24.560 and also pushed back against the stigma that inhibits scientific engagement. And so we 65 00:05:24.600 --> 00:05:29.879 spent the last yeah, we spent the last six months working on that program. 66 00:05:29.120 --> 00:05:33.959 And the backstory is just that when I was a kid trying to resolve 67 00:05:34.600 --> 00:05:41.920 UFO experiences in my life and my family's life, I was looking up UFO 68 00:05:42.000 --> 00:05:46.800 and the card catalog at the library, and of course AIAA was right at 69 00:05:46.800 --> 00:05:49.759 the front with their statement on UFOs. They had taken a counter position to 70 00:05:50.480 --> 00:05:59.360 Project Bluebook and Condon in their conclusions and advocated for fur their study. They 71 00:05:59.399 --> 00:06:02.720 had one I think a local chapter did a conference on UAP and Los Angeles 72 00:06:02.839 --> 00:06:08.600 or something shortly thereafter, and then it kind of died on the vine now 73 00:06:08.639 --> 00:06:11.920 fifty years later, and part of that story and it's it's kind of a 74 00:06:13.079 --> 00:06:15.199 kind of interesting, you know, from a couple of angles. Yeah, 75 00:06:15.240 --> 00:06:18.319 that that is that is great. That is great. By the way, 76 00:06:18.879 --> 00:06:24.519 a library is a place where they have books just for and that card file 77 00:06:24.600 --> 00:06:28.560 is where you used to look up the book, yeah right, those things. 78 00:06:28.800 --> 00:06:31.879 Yeah, yeah, yeah, but well that's that's pretty exciting. And 79 00:06:32.240 --> 00:06:36.279 so yeah, the stigma as you know, because of what you've been involved 80 00:06:36.319 --> 00:06:46.720 and with NARCAP is uh and that's National Aviation, National Aviation reporting on an 81 00:06:46.720 --> 00:06:53.160 almost yeah, yeah, yeah, it is, it is. And um, 82 00:06:53.199 --> 00:06:58.079 just for the person who's never um really looked into that at all, 83 00:06:58.120 --> 00:07:01.160 can you explain a little bit what that what's involved in that? Well, 84 00:07:01.199 --> 00:07:06.519 Doctor Jaynes and I founded in our CAP in nineteen ninety nine two thousand to 85 00:07:06.720 --> 00:07:14.959 address UAP reports that involved aviation safety. And a lot of the pilot reports 86 00:07:15.879 --> 00:07:19.319 have safety factors involved in the report, but the data moves away from the 87 00:07:19.480 --> 00:07:27.120 aviation system and the safety planners that could use that information. So we spent 88 00:07:28.240 --> 00:07:33.319 the last twenty two years basically advocating and collecting data on these types of incidents. 89 00:07:35.000 --> 00:07:40.040 And then the OD and I report came out and from their own data 90 00:07:40.160 --> 00:07:46.560 found the same concerns. And well, while this AI double effort is not 91 00:07:47.480 --> 00:07:51.160 derivative of our CAP, we didn't you know, they're not following our work. 92 00:07:51.759 --> 00:07:56.600 We're in parallel with them. We both have the same concerns pretty much 93 00:07:56.639 --> 00:08:01.639 the same perspect of them. Now, one thing that always comes to mind 94 00:08:03.199 --> 00:08:05.600 when I talked to someone like you, and I don't know if I spoke 95 00:08:05.639 --> 00:08:11.639 to you about this before when you were on but Gate C. Seventeen back 96 00:08:11.680 --> 00:08:16.079 to two thousand and seven O'Hare airport, was the disc that was above the 97 00:08:16.120 --> 00:08:20.399 gate and then shot up through the clouds left punched a hole in it. 98 00:08:20.480 --> 00:08:24.199 For those of you that are new and have not really looked at that story. 99 00:08:24.680 --> 00:08:26.720 But one of the things I've said when I've talked at people about this, 100 00:08:28.079 --> 00:08:31.680 well enough time that was two thousand and seven, So much time has 101 00:08:31.720 --> 00:08:33.759 gone by. There are people that should have retired by now that you think 102 00:08:33.799 --> 00:08:37.960 would be talking about it, And I just wonder what your thoughts were on 103 00:08:37.000 --> 00:08:43.440 that. It's entirely possible. I haven't done any follow up with witnesses over 104 00:08:43.480 --> 00:08:52.480 the years, for you know, we keep seeing stories related to the O'Hara 105 00:08:52.200 --> 00:08:58.360 incursion, but we only found one personally even said that they had taken a 106 00:08:58.360 --> 00:09:03.960 photograph, or one person that was referred to as having taken a photograph, 107 00:09:03.000 --> 00:09:07.159 and they never stepped forward. I don't know if there was a photograph. 108 00:09:07.440 --> 00:09:11.399 All the photographic evidence I've seen has been you know, post or faked. 109 00:09:13.200 --> 00:09:18.080 Uh. Yeah, And at the time, no cell phone cameras weren't that 110 00:09:18.440 --> 00:09:22.360 prominent, you know, and you know, it doesn't surprise me. It's 111 00:09:22.399 --> 00:09:24.440 not a hilt. That case is not a hill to die on. It's 112 00:09:24.480 --> 00:09:31.639 just an example of an encourasion into class be restricted airspace and the attempts to 113 00:09:31.320 --> 00:09:35.679 mitigate those things. And again the data didn't go to safety planners. As 114 00:09:35.679 --> 00:09:41.600 it turns out, the FAA doesn't take UFO reports as it for decades and 115 00:09:41.759 --> 00:09:46.320 uh so so here. So if you've got a case that involves a UFO 116 00:09:46.480 --> 00:09:50.440 where souls were on board and you were concerned, there's no nobody, nobody, 117 00:09:50.679 --> 00:09:52.679 nobody cares. Well, I don't, I don't. I don't understand 118 00:09:52.759 --> 00:09:56.320 that if you really think about it, like it's a safety issue, and 119 00:09:56.440 --> 00:10:01.240 why wouldn't why wouldn't they be interested than that? Well, if you can 120 00:10:01.320 --> 00:10:05.440 imagine what it was like for the UAP Task Force to show up at the 121 00:10:05.480 --> 00:10:09.399 FAA offices and say, hey, show us all that great pilot UFBO stuff 122 00:10:09.399 --> 00:10:13.679 you guys have, and they don't have anything. You know, we haven't 123 00:10:13.679 --> 00:10:16.399 been I mean, if you look at the manual, the manual says take 124 00:10:16.440 --> 00:10:20.159 it elsewhere. The manual says, if you want to report a UFO encounter, 125 00:10:20.919 --> 00:10:26.519 contact a civilian reporting system. Is that right peace. It doesn't even 126 00:10:26.600 --> 00:10:30.960 make any sense to me because if they were flying by and there was a 127 00:10:31.000 --> 00:10:35.360 balloon or a drone or something, of course they reported, you know through 128 00:10:35.399 --> 00:10:39.519 the FAA. And what is the difference that it's unwell, well, it's 129 00:10:39.559 --> 00:10:45.519 just it was something they can identified and that that that standard is unacceptable. 130 00:10:45.600 --> 00:10:54.559 We we brief the Aviation Safety Reporting System analysts at the Bunker Old Tap there 131 00:10:54.600 --> 00:10:58.720 outside of Haines Research Center and talk to them about it, and they do 132 00:10:58.799 --> 00:11:03.879 get those reports, often anonymous, but that's the only place where pilots could 133 00:11:03.960 --> 00:11:09.720 go. Now that now that we have the Pentagon in the game and they're 134 00:11:09.720 --> 00:11:15.639 setting up a reporting system across all government deureaucracies that centers in on their program, 135 00:11:15.720 --> 00:11:20.200 kind of like the French program and Japan, right yea. Hopefully that 136 00:11:20.200 --> 00:11:24.919 that data will will first off, it will be collected, but then the 137 00:11:24.960 --> 00:11:28.919 problem is again it moves away from the aviation system into the defense establishment, 138 00:11:30.000 --> 00:11:33.279 so aviation safety planners still don't have what they need, even though the OD 139 00:11:33.399 --> 00:11:39.399 and I report specifically stated that along with national security their threat to aviation, 140 00:11:39.279 --> 00:11:43.159 So you know, it would something we need to resolve and I'm hoping that 141 00:11:43.159 --> 00:11:48.720 our work through AI. DOAA is going to help us, you know, 142 00:11:48.919 --> 00:11:54.120 address issues of data integrity and access. Yeah, well I learned something ted. 143 00:11:54.720 --> 00:12:00.840 I had no idea that they wash their hands of just thought they didn't 144 00:12:00.879 --> 00:12:05.559 pass along any information. But I had no idea that they they had nothing 145 00:12:05.600 --> 00:12:09.639 to do with UFO or UAP as they say reports. That is, if 146 00:12:09.679 --> 00:12:13.240 you look at the Aeronautical Instruction Manual you know the AIM, or you look 147 00:12:13.240 --> 00:12:18.559 at the Air Traffic Control Instruction Manual, their entries on reporting up or the 148 00:12:18.600 --> 00:12:24.159 same and they don't do it. They don't be such an outward interesting. 149 00:12:24.720 --> 00:12:28.480 Well, I hope the day comes where pilots are not going to worry about 150 00:12:28.480 --> 00:12:33.240 losing their jobs, you know by reporting something, because there's probably a lot 151 00:12:33.279 --> 00:12:37.720 more scene out there than ever reported. Absolutely, and that day is coming 152 00:12:39.480 --> 00:12:41.840 because, like I said, now the data is going to be collected and 153 00:12:41.840 --> 00:12:43.080 then it's a matter of us trying to get ahold of some of it so 154 00:12:43.159 --> 00:12:46.840 we can do the right thing with it in terms of making sure pilots are 155 00:12:46.879 --> 00:12:54.519 prepared for the unexpected. And I wrote a pilot advisory about this. It's 156 00:12:54.519 --> 00:12:58.600 been read in a hundred forty countries and it's just a conservative angle on how 157 00:12:58.639 --> 00:13:03.879 to deal with it. So, yeah, I've been I've told people before 158 00:13:03.879 --> 00:13:07.519 on this show that I was a former for a while. I was a 159 00:13:07.039 --> 00:13:11.360 flight attendant and so I got to ride up in the cockpit a number of 160 00:13:11.399 --> 00:13:16.240 times, and you can just see a vast area. I mean, you 161 00:13:16.279 --> 00:13:20.519 can see for miles and miles and miles on a clear day. It's amazing. 162 00:13:20.000 --> 00:13:22.240 I don't know how many miles. It seems like it seems like you 163 00:13:22.279 --> 00:13:26.480 can see easily for one hundred miles. So you know, anything in the 164 00:13:26.519 --> 00:13:31.360 sky. You would think that that pilots would see more. Actually, with 165 00:13:31.399 --> 00:13:35.480 all the reports on the ground, you think they would see more than reported. 166 00:13:35.240 --> 00:13:37.559 Well, all they do, and they're reticent to talk about it. 167 00:13:37.639 --> 00:13:43.320 I can't tell you the number of times I've been somewhere and people know who 168 00:13:43.360 --> 00:13:46.240 I am, and somebody pulled me aside and said, hey, you know, 169 00:13:46.240 --> 00:13:50.919 I was an air traffic controller at ex military base, or I was 170 00:13:50.960 --> 00:13:54.120 a pilot flying for something, and I want to tell you my story. 171 00:13:54.159 --> 00:13:58.480 And and so we get the stories. There's a lot more than we actually 172 00:13:58.679 --> 00:14:03.960 know about because the systems in hostile Yeah, excellent. I think it's starting 173 00:14:05.000 --> 00:14:09.519 to rain, or those insects yeah, it's starting to rain right right on 174 00:14:09.679 --> 00:14:13.039 you. So anyway, Ted, thank you so much. It's always a 175 00:14:13.080 --> 00:14:18.120 pleasure talking to you. A pleasure. Yeah. Take here, all right, 176 00:14:18.399 --> 00:14:20.720 I know, all right. Everyone, So our guests, our main 177 00:14:20.759 --> 00:14:26.080 guest tonight is coming up right now. Jack, welcome to the show. 178 00:14:26.000 --> 00:14:30.639 Thank you for having me. It's always great to be here. Yes, 179 00:14:30.759 --> 00:14:33.480 I think it was. It was two thy sixteen when you were on before. 180 00:14:33.799 --> 00:14:39.600 As time just ticks away, it sure does. Yeah, And so 181 00:14:39.679 --> 00:14:43.879 you've been up to all kinds of things you. Your blog is called the 182 00:14:43.960 --> 00:14:50.679 UFO Trail at blog spot, and um, my friend wrote for you way 183 00:14:50.679 --> 00:14:52.919 back in twenty and sixteen about hypnotherapy, and I thought that was interesting. 184 00:14:54.480 --> 00:14:58.440 Um, she remembered it and I forgot all about it, but you remembered 185 00:14:58.440 --> 00:15:01.720 every bit about it, so that's great. I did remember Donna, your 186 00:15:01.799 --> 00:15:07.399 friend. I remember that when I did your show before. She called in 187 00:15:07.600 --> 00:15:13.840 and we talked, and I was interested enough in her comments that she and 188 00:15:13.879 --> 00:15:18.720 I connected off of the show as well, and I interacted whether some more 189 00:15:18.840 --> 00:15:24.120 by email and did a blog post about it. And yeah, I think 190 00:15:24.159 --> 00:15:35.840 a lot of people have these interactions with UFA researchers and circumstances that arise that 191 00:15:37.559 --> 00:15:43.039 are worthy of hearing and giving attention that they're just not willing to try to 192 00:15:43.080 --> 00:15:46.759 fight to get, you know, on the airwaves or get some attention to 193 00:15:48.919 --> 00:15:56.919 their story because oftentimes they're very personal stories and they often involve people besides just 194 00:15:58.200 --> 00:16:03.440 ourselves as well. And uh yeah, I I certainly remember Donna and her 195 00:16:03.480 --> 00:16:11.159 circumstances, and I'm glad to hear she remembered it, and I hope she 196 00:16:11.320 --> 00:16:15.600 valued it and that things are going well. Yeah, yeah, so, 197 00:16:15.240 --> 00:16:19.879 uh well, it's always it's always great to have you on. And uh, 198 00:16:19.919 --> 00:16:22.360 you know, I don't know if you if I announced you in the 199 00:16:22.399 --> 00:16:26.200 proper way, but I said, I said, some people call you a 200 00:16:26.240 --> 00:16:30.639 skeptic. Would you say, you're just looking at this topic m logically, 201 00:16:30.799 --> 00:16:33.559 is what I would say, more than you're not a debunker. You don't 202 00:16:33.559 --> 00:16:37.240 bash people or anything like that. And someone wrote in somewhere in the chat 203 00:16:37.360 --> 00:16:41.320 room, I saw, well, he's not a debunker at all. So 204 00:16:41.240 --> 00:16:47.679 I never called you one, and I'm but I'd like to hear the skeptical 205 00:16:47.799 --> 00:16:52.159 side of things, because I think I remember Stan Freeman says, you know, 206 00:16:52.279 --> 00:16:55.200 have an open mind, but don't let your brain fall out, you 207 00:16:55.240 --> 00:16:59.679 know. Yeah, yeah, and you know, maybe debunking is in the 208 00:16:59.759 --> 00:17:06.599 eye of the beholder exactly. Yeah. So you wrote about, well, 209 00:17:06.640 --> 00:17:11.720 you've you've written some books, and one of them, um, we're gonna 210 00:17:11.720 --> 00:17:15.720 be talking about a little bit later, and that was called the Grace or 211 00:17:15.799 --> 00:17:18.480 framed this quickly touch on or what's the title to that one? Exactly? 212 00:17:19.000 --> 00:17:27.240 The graves have been framed exploitation in the UFO community and the graves have been 213 00:17:27.279 --> 00:17:33.720 framed was a phrase that that kind of got batted around with some people I 214 00:17:33.880 --> 00:17:41.880 used to interact with online, and it was kind of a way to try 215 00:17:41.920 --> 00:17:47.160 to reframe the way we think about things and the way we look at things. 216 00:17:47.240 --> 00:17:52.720 And we could try a number of ways to tell people that a lot 217 00:17:52.759 --> 00:17:57.680 of the UFO lord doesn't stand up the scrutiny, or a lot of the 218 00:17:57.759 --> 00:18:06.079 claims are anecdotal and unsubstantiated. And one of the phrases that that kind of 219 00:18:06.160 --> 00:18:08.519 seemed to fit that to try to get people to come at it from a 220 00:18:08.559 --> 00:18:14.559 different direction was just the grays have been framed. Man, it's you know, 221 00:18:14.759 --> 00:18:22.680 they they haven't done everything that they're accused of. Yeah, yeah, 222 00:18:22.960 --> 00:18:27.200 I've always you know, I was always on the fence with you know, 223 00:18:27.400 --> 00:18:33.200 it's very interesting and it just I think it's interesting that people have reported seeing 224 00:18:33.359 --> 00:18:37.200 these beings that, you know, like on the Whitley Strieber book, you 225 00:18:37.240 --> 00:18:42.279 know that look like look like that, and um, you know it's been 226 00:18:42.319 --> 00:18:47.319 mentioned over and over again and and you know, um, and then people 227 00:18:47.319 --> 00:18:53.480 are talking about characteristics of them being almost you know, emotionless and you know, 228 00:18:53.599 --> 00:18:59.240 like drones doing their job or something like that. But anyway, UM, 229 00:18:59.359 --> 00:19:03.079 yeah, I until I see when I have to remain skeptic myself. 230 00:19:03.519 --> 00:19:07.440 But it is pretty interesting. It's not just here in this country. People 231 00:19:07.440 --> 00:19:11.279 are reporting it all over. Some people say that it's you know, pop 232 00:19:11.319 --> 00:19:15.440 culture influence, you know, all types of things like that. So I 233 00:19:15.000 --> 00:19:22.759 have no idea. Yes, mister Streber's book cover Communion, that's definitely a 234 00:19:22.920 --> 00:19:30.519 striking, haunting image that influenced people quite a bit. I was talking with 235 00:19:30.599 --> 00:19:37.200 your support staff before the show, and I think that most all of us, 236 00:19:37.839 --> 00:19:44.160 many of us come at this topic because we think there's something to it, 237 00:19:44.920 --> 00:19:52.920 and people that believe in an alien presence or in other or something to 238 00:19:53.039 --> 00:20:02.200 that effect, they deserve the same dignity and respect that we would afford those 239 00:20:02.240 --> 00:20:07.880 who don't believe that, or that we would afford anyone. And I think 240 00:20:07.920 --> 00:20:17.480 where some of the problems arise Martin is we begin to argue things from a 241 00:20:17.559 --> 00:20:23.799 personalized perspective, and it shouldn't always be that way. For instance, if 242 00:20:26.160 --> 00:20:33.839 I challenge things that a researcher has asserted, or if I challenge their methodology 243 00:20:33.559 --> 00:20:41.039 as being flawed and not as solid as they purported to be, that is 244 00:20:41.079 --> 00:20:51.440 a different argument from does persona's experiences were they real? Or were they imagined? 245 00:20:52.119 --> 00:21:03.440 But oftentimes an experiencer will kind of project the whole argument on if there's 246 00:21:03.559 --> 00:21:14.119 any substance to the UFO topic at all, by questioning anyone researcher or anyone 247 00:21:14.279 --> 00:21:22.119 methodology or any single report, and it can become almost a reverse stigmatism that 248 00:21:22.680 --> 00:21:30.079 critical thinkers will shy away from the subject just because it and not because they're 249 00:21:30.119 --> 00:21:34.720 afraid of being criticized for looking at it, but they just don't want to 250 00:21:34.759 --> 00:21:45.880 get publicly bashed and have groups of pro UFO people sin after them to discourage 251 00:21:45.960 --> 00:21:52.480 them from being critical. So it can almost become a reverse stigmatism. But 252 00:21:52.640 --> 00:22:03.279 I think everyone does deserve respect and tolerant about how they come to have the 253 00:22:03.559 --> 00:22:10.799 beliefs and the opinions they have that could spread across of all parts of our 254 00:22:10.880 --> 00:22:17.480 society today. That that way of thinking, you know, because we you 255 00:22:17.519 --> 00:22:22.680 know, we're very divisive these days in so many ways, and and you 256 00:22:22.720 --> 00:22:27.319 know, if we can relax a little bit and let people believe what they 257 00:22:27.359 --> 00:22:32.480 want as long as they're not hurting other people, you know, what's the 258 00:22:32.519 --> 00:22:37.599 harm in that that type of thing. But um so let's hear about Nightcap. 259 00:22:37.680 --> 00:22:44.279 I think this is very interesting that there may be an intelligence a US 260 00:22:44.319 --> 00:22:53.200 intelligence connection and what led you down this path? Well, the short answer 261 00:22:53.240 --> 00:23:02.720 to that is there's certainly a US and CIA and tell eligence connection with NIECAP 262 00:23:03.039 --> 00:23:11.839 and its purposes become a bit more up for debate. What led me down 263 00:23:11.880 --> 00:23:18.200 that path is the more and more I got interested in this smartin and after 264 00:23:19.680 --> 00:23:27.559 going to a ridiculous amount of moof on meetings and UFO conferences and reading this 265 00:23:27.880 --> 00:23:37.240 and listening to that, I came to the conclusion that one really cannot solve 266 00:23:37.359 --> 00:23:45.119 a scientific question with a laptop and no equipment. You know, I understand 267 00:23:45.160 --> 00:23:52.759 why people investigate UFO sidings. I understand why they interview experiencers. I get 268 00:23:52.799 --> 00:24:00.000 that some people are interested in it, but after chasing my long enough, 269 00:24:00.240 --> 00:24:07.720 I became much less interested in stories that have no resolution, and I became 270 00:24:07.960 --> 00:24:18.240 much more interested in the social circumstances and materials that are available through the Freedom 271 00:24:18.279 --> 00:24:30.559 of Information Act and newspaper archives and various material and records that are recognized as 272 00:24:33.200 --> 00:24:41.079 professional research standards. And so one of the things that I was interested in 273 00:24:41.319 --> 00:24:48.559 was where the intelligence community overlaps with the UFO community. And so I was 274 00:24:48.720 --> 00:24:55.960 interested in Bill Moore and the nineteen nineties heyday of ufology, and of course 275 00:24:56.079 --> 00:25:02.720 the more recent A Tip story and to the Stars Academy and that kind of 276 00:25:02.720 --> 00:25:08.000 thing. But it seemed like I was overlooking a big, a big piece 277 00:25:08.240 --> 00:25:18.079 of the ic UFO community connection with NIECAP, and so I really didn't know 278 00:25:18.240 --> 00:25:27.359 much about the National Investigations Committee on Aerial Phenomena NIECAP, a mid twentieth century 279 00:25:27.519 --> 00:25:34.119 UFO group, And when I began looking into it, I started doing some 280 00:25:34.279 --> 00:25:47.920 FOIA requests and finding more and more ties to high ranking members of the CIA, 281 00:25:48.000 --> 00:25:56.480 and there was just an undeniable connection between a group of people that were 282 00:25:56.640 --> 00:26:06.200 on the outskirts of the CIA and organizations that were contracted by the CIA, 283 00:26:06.319 --> 00:26:15.880 and directors and key personnel of the CIA directly correlated with the people that incorporated 284 00:26:17.039 --> 00:26:23.519 Nightcap and ran it initially. And I started out doing some blog posts about 285 00:26:23.559 --> 00:26:34.240 it and was surprised how much material directly corroborated these circumstances. So I ended 286 00:26:34.319 --> 00:26:41.960 up putting it in a book and am still getting more material as I saved 287 00:26:41.039 --> 00:26:51.640 from newspaper archives, FOIA requests. There's a great deal of material available in 288 00:26:53.640 --> 00:27:00.680 archive collections at colleges, letter letters that are saved and things like that that 289 00:27:02.200 --> 00:27:07.559 from the best I can tell, or virtually untapped resources. And I hope 290 00:27:07.559 --> 00:27:15.000 to be looking into some of that. And I can understand people are interested 291 00:27:15.039 --> 00:27:22.359 in UFOs and they want to hear about aliens, and so oftentimes if there's 292 00:27:22.440 --> 00:27:26.839 not a flying saucer in this story, they're not really interested. But I 293 00:27:26.880 --> 00:27:34.000 think we're really overlooking a big part of the cultural puzzle, the social puzzle 294 00:27:34.680 --> 00:27:41.480 how all of this stuff came to be in so many of our daily lives 295 00:27:41.680 --> 00:27:48.559 and our forward thinking consciousness. If we don't go back and look at how 296 00:27:48.720 --> 00:27:56.400 some of the original American UFO groups were formed and Incorporated and what some of 297 00:27:56.440 --> 00:28:03.119 those initial intentions may have been that then it all just kind of snowballed out 298 00:28:03.160 --> 00:28:11.799 of There was a story that Ray Stanford told me. Are you familiar with 299 00:28:11.839 --> 00:28:15.559 who Ray Stanford is? I am. Yeah. He told me that he 300 00:28:15.680 --> 00:28:23.599 was involved in a conference and that all of a sudden had funds of seventy 301 00:28:23.599 --> 00:28:30.440 five thousand dollars and a shell company that he traced back to American you know, 302 00:28:30.480 --> 00:28:33.839 like it was through the intelligence or I would have to talk to him 303 00:28:33.880 --> 00:28:37.000 more about it, but you know, there was it was a kind of 304 00:28:37.000 --> 00:28:41.160 a big deal at the time, and this is going back to the nineteen 305 00:28:41.279 --> 00:28:42.759 seventies. It was very expensive and all of a sudden it was paid for. 306 00:28:44.720 --> 00:28:52.519 So they would you say that this is there possibly looking to get inside 307 00:28:52.599 --> 00:28:59.920 information about what's going on with the public or what's going on with you know, 308 00:29:00.079 --> 00:29:03.559 the possibility of UFOs and US being visited. Which would you say? 309 00:29:03.559 --> 00:29:11.240 Which would you think? I tend to think the latter is a low priority. 310 00:29:11.480 --> 00:29:18.720 I don't think that Director hill Encoder with the CIA would have come to 311 00:29:18.839 --> 00:29:27.359 a civilian organization, for instance, to learn about UFOs and potential aliens. 312 00:29:27.400 --> 00:29:34.799 That's just my opinion. What I feel pretty confident about is that the purpose 313 00:29:36.200 --> 00:29:44.240 of the intelligence community involvement, the CIA involvement, the DA involvement. I 314 00:29:44.279 --> 00:29:51.400 think it changes from one instance to another, one specific circumstance to another, 315 00:29:51.640 --> 00:30:00.680 and one era to another. And in Nightcaps instance, the cold or was 316 00:30:00.720 --> 00:30:07.039 a big deal. I think that things played in Like the Nightcap director Donald 317 00:30:07.160 --> 00:30:15.920 Kehoe, his signature move was getting leaks out of the military from pilots, 318 00:30:17.079 --> 00:30:22.000 from people that would give him documents, give him stories. I mean, 319 00:30:22.119 --> 00:30:29.160 let's face it, the FBI is not doing its job if it's not interested 320 00:30:29.359 --> 00:30:33.160 in those leagues, and it doesn't have to be for the purpose of what 321 00:30:33.240 --> 00:30:41.039 the leaks are about something else. The first thing that came to mind, 322 00:30:41.240 --> 00:30:48.440 Martin when you mentioned that mister Stanford said the intelligence community had set up a 323 00:30:48.559 --> 00:30:55.240 conference. It's now known that it's a it was a pretty common tactic at 324 00:30:55.240 --> 00:31:03.079 one time to set up academic international conference, and that that was used by 325 00:31:03.160 --> 00:31:10.480 foreign intelligence services as well as American intelligence services to try to recruit spies, 326 00:31:11.200 --> 00:31:15.400 and it put the leaders in the field in physics, communications, photography, 327 00:31:15.559 --> 00:31:22.640 whatever the conference was about, at events, and there were a number of 328 00:31:22.920 --> 00:31:27.440 spy techniques tried, like in more recent times, it would be here, 329 00:31:29.319 --> 00:31:33.640 here's my memory stick, unload my project into your laptop, and then when 330 00:31:33.640 --> 00:31:38.599 you get the memory stick back, you've got everything off of the people's laptop, 331 00:31:38.759 --> 00:31:45.480 or you're planning spyware and this kind of thing. And the conferences were 332 00:31:45.519 --> 00:31:56.759 an opportunity for intelligence gathering and trying to recruit spies. So in the UFO 333 00:31:57.440 --> 00:32:07.880 genre content X, we've long had a lot of people in the defense community 334 00:32:07.039 --> 00:32:14.680 that take interest in UFOs, and that's understandable. You know, Martin Mary 335 00:32:14.680 --> 00:32:19.880 out of contractors, people like that have a history of being interested in the 336 00:32:19.920 --> 00:32:25.000 topic and what's flying around, so I could potentially see And that was the 337 00:32:25.039 --> 00:32:30.519 first thing that came to mind with the story about mister Stanford, that the 338 00:32:31.000 --> 00:32:39.920 intelligence community had set up a conference to try to see who maybe is targeting 339 00:32:40.160 --> 00:32:47.880 these people that have security clearances in a professional capacity or any number of intelligence 340 00:32:47.960 --> 00:32:53.119 or counter intelligence opportunities. As a matter of fact, in my book, 341 00:32:53.599 --> 00:33:07.240 I discovered that doctor Donald Menzel mid twentieth century, PhD, worked with the 342 00:33:07.359 --> 00:33:16.519 intelligence communities spent his life basically under surveillance because of the classified projects he worked 343 00:33:16.559 --> 00:33:23.400 on. After some thirty years of FBI memos, about making sure that this 344 00:33:23.480 --> 00:33:30.160 guy is not reporting to Russia, isn't in bed with China, or anything 345 00:33:30.200 --> 00:33:37.759 like that. I found memos that they the Washington Field office or the Boston 346 00:33:37.839 --> 00:33:45.960 Field office for the FBI was requesting from Director Hoover permission to groom doctor Menzel 347 00:33:45.359 --> 00:33:52.440 as an informant or counter agent because he was still at that point in his 348 00:33:52.599 --> 00:34:00.599 career traveling to China and going to international conferences. So it's real hard to 349 00:34:00.720 --> 00:34:10.239 separate the intelligence aspects from the UFO steeplechase. And it's just something that most 350 00:34:10.280 --> 00:34:17.840 people understandably don't even take into consideration when they're just heading off to a moof 351 00:34:17.960 --> 00:34:23.840 ON meeting or an SCU meeting and they want to hear about what's the latest 352 00:34:24.000 --> 00:34:30.199 UFO buzz, what's been going on. And those of us like me who 353 00:34:30.239 --> 00:34:35.920 are not in that line of work, have not ever been employed in the 354 00:34:36.000 --> 00:34:43.880 intelligence community. It's really a whole different way of looking at things to start 355 00:34:43.960 --> 00:34:47.679 seeing it through that kind of lens. I remember again, I just brought 356 00:34:47.760 --> 00:34:52.239 up Stan Freeman a little while ago, and I remember one of the times 357 00:34:52.280 --> 00:34:57.679 I spoke with him, he was talking about doctor Menzelf from the Harvard Harvard 358 00:34:57.960 --> 00:35:02.519 Astronomy. I believe that's right, and that he figured out in a roundabout 359 00:35:02.559 --> 00:35:07.480 way that he did have a clearance, a security clearance, and was involved 360 00:35:07.480 --> 00:35:13.400 in something. So that's kind of an interesting tie in, you know, 361 00:35:13.559 --> 00:35:21.920 basically to it. Yes, it is. My research indicates that doctor Menzel 362 00:35:22.239 --> 00:35:34.800 was involved in some applications of astronomy to spying and code breaking and sending codes 363 00:35:34.880 --> 00:35:38.880 of all things. And it had to do with work he was doing about 364 00:35:39.000 --> 00:35:47.920 the most advantageous time to send and intercept messages based on atmospheric conditions, and 365 00:35:49.840 --> 00:35:54.639 that was just one of the things he did. And I also found some 366 00:35:54.800 --> 00:36:06.239 interesting archives where he exchanged letters with CI director CIA director Hillencoder, who also 367 00:36:06.440 --> 00:36:13.679 served ironically as the Nightcap chairman of the board for a few years, and 368 00:36:14.880 --> 00:36:22.119 they had a debate about UFOs, and it became apparent in these letters that 369 00:36:22.679 --> 00:36:32.800 Hellencoder was telling Menzel one thing and then he would tell Nightcap director Donald Kehoe 370 00:36:34.000 --> 00:36:39.159 another thing. And so I found that interesting that Hillencoder seemed to be kind 371 00:36:39.159 --> 00:36:45.280 of talking out of both sides of his mouth about what his position on UFOs 372 00:36:45.800 --> 00:36:54.800 was. And also Menzel was purported to be one of the Majestic twelve the 373 00:36:55.000 --> 00:37:01.599 MJ twelve, as was Hellencoder, and the letters between the two certainly put 374 00:37:01.679 --> 00:37:07.159 that to bed that if the two of them were aware of any flying saucer 375 00:37:07.280 --> 00:37:12.679 retrievals, they were sure playing the long game, and their letters so that 376 00:37:13.360 --> 00:37:17.320 sixty years later when we read them we will think that they didn't know anything 377 00:37:17.400 --> 00:37:27.559 about flying saucers. Interesting, Wow, Kehoe, What an interesting character he 378 00:37:27.800 --> 00:37:30.400 was, wasn't he in He was in the navy, wasn't I'm trying to 379 00:37:30.400 --> 00:37:37.400 remember what brand I believe. I believe Marines, And he was a pilot, 380 00:37:37.280 --> 00:37:45.639 and he was an interesting character. He wrote extensively for pulp magazines before 381 00:37:46.440 --> 00:37:54.599 he got involved with Niecap, and had attracted the attention of the FBI some 382 00:37:54.760 --> 00:38:01.800 twenty years prior to his Niecap involved and in the nineteen fifties, so as 383 00:38:01.840 --> 00:38:10.239 early as I think, like nineteen thirty five, he was attracting attention about 384 00:38:10.400 --> 00:38:15.280 something or other. I tried to Foyia that and find out more, and 385 00:38:15.400 --> 00:38:21.760 they were unable to locate the records. But the FBI was able to give 386 00:38:21.800 --> 00:38:30.679 me documents that demonstrate that Director Hoover and his staff did not think highly of 387 00:38:30.920 --> 00:38:40.760 Keyhoe's writing about the FBI and felt that things that Keyho was promoting were irresponsible, 388 00:38:40.920 --> 00:38:46.719 Like at one point he had written that I think he wrote that the 389 00:38:46.840 --> 00:38:52.519 Nazis had a plan to take over the Merchant Marines or something to that effect, 390 00:38:52.559 --> 00:38:57.960 and that the FBI was aware of the plan. And of course that's 391 00:38:58.000 --> 00:39:02.360 the kind of thing that would get Hoover's attention and that would certainly get on 392 00:39:02.440 --> 00:39:07.679 his bad side. MM. But I thought he was up. I thought 393 00:39:07.679 --> 00:39:14.639 he was an advocate. You know, he was really pushing for you know, 394 00:39:14.679 --> 00:39:17.079 I mean like people do today, you know, let's let's talk about 395 00:39:17.119 --> 00:39:22.199 this and you know, so that's another reason he was probably looked on, 396 00:39:22.320 --> 00:39:27.679 you know, down upon. And I believe there's a Mike Wallace or some 397 00:39:28.199 --> 00:39:31.119 I'm trying to remember a great interview with him that you can find, right, 398 00:39:32.079 --> 00:39:37.559 that's correct. Kehoe was definitely what way today would call a disclose your 399 00:39:37.599 --> 00:39:45.719 advocate. He very much believed in a UFO presence and thought that it was 400 00:39:46.280 --> 00:39:55.480 and I thought that UFOs represented interplanetary spacecraft. One of my criticisms of Nightcap 401 00:39:55.760 --> 00:40:05.199 was that they promoted themselves as a scientific research organization, and in many aspects 402 00:40:05.360 --> 00:40:10.920 they were, but they also used it as somewhat of a facade to try 403 00:40:10.960 --> 00:40:17.000 to deflect criticism, and they'd sent out a lot of things that would not 404 00:40:17.320 --> 00:40:23.800 be a lot of material and literature that would not and should not be considered 405 00:40:25.239 --> 00:40:36.280 in line with by definition scientific investigation. And Keyhoe, at least outwardly, 406 00:40:36.320 --> 00:40:44.440 and I tend to think this is correct, became convinced that the FBI, 407 00:40:44.480 --> 00:40:52.920 the CIA, the Air Force were hiding it's their knowledge of an extraterrestrial presence, 408 00:40:52.639 --> 00:41:00.519 and he felt like the key to getting this proof and this knowledge was 409 00:41:00.599 --> 00:41:08.559 through people leaking documents and through congressional hearings, much like we're seeing today. 410 00:41:08.599 --> 00:41:15.480 There are a lot of parallels between the Nightcap saga of the nineteen sixties and 411 00:41:15.599 --> 00:41:23.320 today. And Kehoe essentially became a lobbyist, whether he may have considered himself 412 00:41:23.360 --> 00:41:32.400 that or not. And Nightcap successfully got congressional hearings that didn't turn out as 413 00:41:32.480 --> 00:41:37.159 they had hoped they would. And there's a whole, you know, list 414 00:41:37.239 --> 00:41:43.840 of different opinions on how and why that happened. That the bottom line is 415 00:41:43.920 --> 00:41:47.280 people that want to believe are always going to play the cover up card, 416 00:41:49.280 --> 00:41:58.119 and those of us that might be a bit more even handed or skeptical are 417 00:41:58.239 --> 00:42:02.239 going to say, well, maybe that's so, but it hasn't been proven, 418 00:42:04.000 --> 00:42:09.840 and if there is proof somewhere, it hasn't come out. And pretty 419 00:42:09.920 --> 00:42:22.840 much every conceivable attempt has been made by a politician and a disclosure activist military 420 00:42:22.920 --> 00:42:29.599 intelligence people. All of the things that we see happening today happen in spades 421 00:42:29.719 --> 00:42:42.559 with NIECAP. That directors of intelligence agencies, career intelligence officers, CIA officers 422 00:42:42.639 --> 00:42:51.840 were going on the record talking about their belief about flying saucers and were some 423 00:42:52.000 --> 00:42:57.159 of that sincere I would think so, maybe most of it. I don't 424 00:42:57.239 --> 00:43:01.400 think all of it was. I think there were there were mixed agendas, 425 00:43:01.519 --> 00:43:07.880 and I tend to think so for what I was discussing earlier reasons. As 426 00:43:07.920 --> 00:43:17.320 I mentioned earlier, that there was a lot of obstruction about the backgrounds of 427 00:43:17.360 --> 00:43:24.079 the people that incorporated Nightcap. And the same way that we know now that 428 00:43:24.599 --> 00:43:31.639 academic conferences can be used as an intelligence community tool, we also know now 429 00:43:32.360 --> 00:43:44.400 that nonprofit corporations five oh one c three corporations such as NIECAP were commonly used 430 00:43:44.400 --> 00:43:52.119 by intelligence agencies to distribute funds and to covertly move money around. And I 431 00:43:52.199 --> 00:43:58.679 think that that might play into the story as well. I think when NIECAP 432 00:43:58.920 --> 00:44:07.719 was incorporated by intelligence community assets, I think that they had some different ideas 433 00:44:07.800 --> 00:44:13.920 about where it might go. And then that's back to how we were saying. 434 00:44:14.639 --> 00:44:22.960 The particular change from one instance to the next. Sometimes they might be 435 00:44:22.000 --> 00:44:28.920 looking for leaks. Sometimes they might be doing counter intelligence and trying to find 436 00:44:28.960 --> 00:44:37.119 out what foreign adversaries are interested in making connections with these leaks. Sometimes they 437 00:44:37.199 --> 00:44:46.320 might be planning disinformation about fabricated weapons systems that don't really exist. Like you 438 00:44:46.400 --> 00:44:52.480 might be aware or your audience might be aware that James carry On has done 439 00:44:52.519 --> 00:45:00.920 some good work and uncovered the misrepresentation of Project Seal in the late nineteen forties 440 00:45:01.440 --> 00:45:10.199 that was misrepresented to the press to be an airborne weapon as powerful as the 441 00:45:10.239 --> 00:45:17.519 atomic bomb, and carry On found in his research that in actuality had been 442 00:45:17.960 --> 00:45:24.239 it had been shelved and dissolved like a year before it was being misrepresented to 443 00:45:24.280 --> 00:45:29.639 the press. And I just think, you know, there is pick a 444 00:45:29.719 --> 00:45:32.360 card, any card. You know, There's just there's at least fifty two 445 00:45:32.440 --> 00:45:39.239 reasons of why the intelligence community might be interested in games like that from one 446 00:45:39.320 --> 00:45:47.000 specific instance to the next. Now colonel or retired Colonel Joseph Bryan. The 447 00:45:47.199 --> 00:45:52.000 third he was a bit was he a bit controversial? Was because there was 448 00:45:52.039 --> 00:45:59.000 a rumor that he was definitely involved in the CIA or something right, Yes, 449 00:46:00.480 --> 00:46:07.800 Colonel Brian was virtually certainly a CIA officers represented in the New York Times 450 00:46:07.840 --> 00:46:15.719 and other media outlets, and a number of these people, like Joseph Brant 451 00:46:15.840 --> 00:46:25.760 is one has been of great interest to historians over the years for reasons that 452 00:46:25.920 --> 00:46:32.719 have nothing to do with UFOs, and that is because Colonel Brian and some 453 00:46:32.920 --> 00:46:43.280 of the other Nightcap people played significant roles in American and global politics. Nicholas 454 00:46:43.360 --> 00:46:49.960 de Rochefort is one that has been the subject of CIA lawsuits to try to 455 00:46:49.960 --> 00:46:57.239 get records on him. That was an original Nightcap organizer, and like Colonel 456 00:46:57.360 --> 00:47:06.719 Brian, was a expert in psychological warfare. And Colonel Brian was one who 457 00:47:06.880 --> 00:47:15.199 was with Nightcap almost its entire life cycle, and he sat on the board 458 00:47:15.800 --> 00:47:22.559 and had connections in the intelligence community that go back to the early nineteen fifties. 459 00:47:23.000 --> 00:47:31.840 He reportedly worked in the officey of Policy Coordination. And as I've said, 460 00:47:31.960 --> 00:47:38.559 my general thesis is there's this group that we can put directly with Nightcap 461 00:47:39.119 --> 00:47:44.559 if we want to start letting me get manic and sticking pins all over the 462 00:47:44.599 --> 00:47:51.960 wall like that meme that goes around. This Office of Policy Coordination just had 463 00:47:52.400 --> 00:48:00.519 a whole crew of people that keep popping up during the nineteen fifties in the 464 00:48:00.559 --> 00:48:08.400 CIA and the UFO community and had organizations linked to it that we're gathering information 465 00:48:08.559 --> 00:48:17.119 for it and acting as assets abroad that were directly involved in incorporating and initially 466 00:48:17.159 --> 00:48:27.119 operating Nightcap. I'm personally skeptical of the MJ twelve of papers, and also 467 00:48:27.159 --> 00:48:34.320 the one signed by Eisenhower because that's the signature. I meanity it just I 468 00:48:34.360 --> 00:48:37.840 mean, it's his signature, but it could have so easily been floated on 469 00:48:37.119 --> 00:48:42.119 a copy, which that is it's not an original. But anyway, being 470 00:48:42.159 --> 00:48:45.800 skeptical of all that, and also we can talk a little bit about Bill 471 00:48:45.880 --> 00:48:51.639 Moore, But do you think there was actually some type of organization like MJ 472 00:48:51.800 --> 00:48:59.800 twelve headed by these people like um Menzel and people like that in the spirit 473 00:49:00.119 --> 00:49:06.280 the question, no, I do not U Were there meetings? Were there 474 00:49:06.360 --> 00:49:12.239 discussions? Um? Could you really try to take a square peg and pound 475 00:49:12.280 --> 00:49:16.960 it into a round hole somewhere or other. Probably maybe, UM, But 476 00:49:17.599 --> 00:49:22.360 in the spirit of your question, do I think there was something resembling and 477 00:49:23.039 --> 00:49:35.760 an elite task force that that that retrieved crashed alien spacecraft? I just you 478 00:49:35.840 --> 00:49:42.880 know, would have no reason to believe that without further documentation, right, 479 00:49:43.000 --> 00:49:50.519 And when this um, when this came out, going back to the papers, 480 00:49:50.559 --> 00:49:52.239 when they came out, there were so many people that were really thinking 481 00:49:52.719 --> 00:49:57.599 thinking it was you know, that's the smoking gun. You know, this 482 00:49:57.679 --> 00:50:02.159 is this is definitely and all that. And you know, in recent years 483 00:50:02.320 --> 00:50:07.599 or the last year or year or two, I would say, we have 484 00:50:07.719 --> 00:50:12.000 the Wilson document. Have you looked into that? I mean, I personally 485 00:50:12.000 --> 00:50:15.920 think that's kind of along the same line. You know, it's supposedly Eric 486 00:50:15.000 --> 00:50:19.880 Davis was involved, but he won't say whether he was or not in it 487 00:50:19.960 --> 00:50:25.039 took place in Las Vegas, and you know, it's another very similar it 488 00:50:25.199 --> 00:50:30.559 seems like another similar type of situation. Have you looked into that at all? 489 00:50:30.199 --> 00:50:37.119 I have the outskirts of it. I haven't done a deep dive, 490 00:50:37.679 --> 00:50:44.519 and it's the very type of circumstance like I touched on earlier, that I 491 00:50:45.039 --> 00:50:57.000 got to where I lost interest and all of these narratives that rely on trusting 492 00:50:57.199 --> 00:51:04.559 someone about what they say saw or what they say someone told them. And 493 00:51:05.679 --> 00:51:10.199 like I said, I used to go to conferences and I would talk to 494 00:51:10.440 --> 00:51:16.960 and interview some of the intelligence community members and I learned some things from it. 495 00:51:17.239 --> 00:51:24.280 But one of those things I learned was there's never a time coming that 496 00:51:24.360 --> 00:51:29.000 they're just gonna say, well, you asked the question in the right way. 497 00:51:29.119 --> 00:51:31.719 Let me get out my briefcase and I have those documents right here to 498 00:51:31.800 --> 00:51:37.840 give you. Is just not coming, like like, what can anyone possibly 499 00:51:37.000 --> 00:51:43.400 say that would matter? You know, like if Colonel John Alexander told me 500 00:51:43.880 --> 00:51:47.199 unequivocally I saw this, that and the other end it exists. Well, 501 00:51:47.239 --> 00:51:52.719 all I've got is a statement. What difference does it make? So we 502 00:51:52.840 --> 00:51:58.559 have to get the documents, and we have to get the supporting evidence that 503 00:51:58.840 --> 00:52:07.840 is available republic review and that qualified scientists put a pencil to it, and 504 00:52:07.039 --> 00:52:15.800 it passes peer review, and it's not under uh, some some chain of 505 00:52:15.920 --> 00:52:21.519 circumstances that these PhDs like to wink and say, I can't talk about that. 506 00:52:21.920 --> 00:52:27.519 I'm just not even interested anymore. And I know we're kind of talking 507 00:52:27.559 --> 00:52:32.400 about these subjects and this has some relevance to it. But Bill Moore, 508 00:52:32.760 --> 00:52:37.679 he came out, you know, during he basically came out said that he 509 00:52:37.760 --> 00:52:40.159 was working was it for the CIA? Who he was working for? Some 510 00:52:40.239 --> 00:52:46.360 type of intelligence he I think he believed them to be connected to the CIA, 511 00:52:46.400 --> 00:52:53.199 and that the Air Force, the Air Force Office of Special Investigations that 512 00:52:53.679 --> 00:53:01.079 plays pretty heavily into the Nightcap saga as well, and more believed that if 513 00:53:01.159 --> 00:53:10.159 he played ball and put some stories into the UFO community as he was given 514 00:53:10.679 --> 00:53:19.599 to put that, then he would get the the goodies that they danced with 515 00:53:19.679 --> 00:53:25.119 him and reward him with the kind of information he wanted. And eventually he 516 00:53:25.800 --> 00:53:31.119 decided the reward wasn't coming, and he came clean with the whole story that 517 00:53:31.239 --> 00:53:37.800 he had been acting as what he believed to be a disinformation mouthpiece for the 518 00:53:37.880 --> 00:53:46.639 intelligence community. And so then we're left with which story do you want to 519 00:53:46.679 --> 00:53:52.280 believe? You want to believe the one that he's saying he is coming clean, 520 00:53:52.519 --> 00:53:59.800 or do you want to believe the one before he has his come to 521 00:54:00.079 --> 00:54:06.199 Jesus moment and day of reckoning or uh, you know, it's just tough 522 00:54:06.360 --> 00:54:10.760 when when someone says I'm a liar and I'm being honest. But now listen 523 00:54:10.800 --> 00:54:20.480 to this, and uh, I tend to think Moore's story is corroborated enough 524 00:54:20.960 --> 00:54:27.280 with the Paul Benowitz affair and things like that that it looks pretty solid. 525 00:54:27.599 --> 00:54:34.360 There was certainly shenanigans going on. It's certainly a concerning story with Richard Dodi 526 00:54:34.840 --> 00:54:40.519 and the whole chain of events. But uh, again we're just left with 527 00:54:40.679 --> 00:54:46.719 people made a lot of statements about stuff, and as my buddy Tim Bannal 528 00:54:46.920 --> 00:54:52.280 says, show me the alien. Just show me the alien. You know. 529 00:54:54.639 --> 00:55:00.239 Pretty funny. Um, yep. So someone put in here, let's 530 00:55:00.239 --> 00:55:02.159 see what do you think about the Halt memo? Have you? I mean, 531 00:55:02.679 --> 00:55:09.840 that's Charles Halt wrote about Randelsham Force. You know he basically I think 532 00:55:09.880 --> 00:55:14.400 he actually put in the wrong date, something like, I know, something 533 00:55:14.440 --> 00:55:16.480 like that had to do with you know, radar, they were looking into 534 00:55:16.519 --> 00:55:23.480 it. But basically this was he has supposedly happened early morning on the twenty 535 00:55:23.519 --> 00:55:30.199 seventh of December nineteen eighty and he talks about you know, the security seeing 536 00:55:30.239 --> 00:55:35.800 this triangle shape ufl blah blah blah. So someone just didn't chat, just 537 00:55:35.840 --> 00:55:37.239 wanted to know what you thought about that memo. Have you ever looked at 538 00:55:37.280 --> 00:55:45.800 it? My general opinion on Randallshim is that it's a fascinating case. I 539 00:55:45.840 --> 00:55:51.679 have not gone into all of the minutia. It's not one of the cases 540 00:55:51.840 --> 00:55:59.199 I have picked up the gauntlet. I've felt like enough talented, competent people 541 00:55:59.320 --> 00:56:06.000 have. And my general opinion on it is that it's another in a long 542 00:56:06.119 --> 00:56:13.119 line of fantastic UFO stories that happen to center around a bunch of military people. 543 00:56:13.679 --> 00:56:17.320 And so so we can take that domain whatever we want it domain, 544 00:56:19.239 --> 00:56:25.320 and again we have a story that something happened, and I think that's just 545 00:56:25.440 --> 00:56:30.079 kind of the long and the short of it. Yeah, Yeah, it's 546 00:56:30.119 --> 00:56:34.119 interesting. I've talked to a number of people involved, and it is, 547 00:56:34.400 --> 00:56:37.079 uh, you know, it's kind of convoluted with all you know, the 548 00:56:37.159 --> 00:56:43.239 different witnesses. That nineteen eighty goes back a long time now, and your 549 00:56:43.320 --> 00:56:50.039 memory is not. Everyone's memory falters a little as they rethink and retell the 550 00:56:50.079 --> 00:56:53.119 stories over the years. So yeah, as time further away we get from 551 00:56:53.159 --> 00:56:58.320 any of these things, you know, talking about Roswell way back that that's 552 00:56:58.360 --> 00:57:00.719 so long ago. Um, you know, I don't know if we'll ever 553 00:57:00.760 --> 00:57:07.159 know exactly what happened there, there's there's you know, often people will say, 554 00:57:07.159 --> 00:57:10.599 why do you even talk about that case? Um, you know, 555 00:57:10.719 --> 00:57:15.960 as if nothing you know, knew could ever come about, and most likely 556 00:57:16.000 --> 00:57:22.719 it won't at this point. Yeah. Yeah, I'm definitely on the same 557 00:57:22.760 --> 00:57:27.760 page with you there, And in fact, I think with the whole memory 558 00:57:27.800 --> 00:57:32.559 thing. Um, one of the criticisms I would make of the UFO saying 559 00:57:34.639 --> 00:57:40.719 is that we tend to skip the basics, like we were saying about understanding 560 00:57:40.760 --> 00:57:45.400 the intelligence community, and want to go for the good stuff. You know, 561 00:57:45.559 --> 00:57:50.920 show me the alien. Where's the flying saucer in this story? Um? 562 00:57:51.480 --> 00:57:54.400 Just just tell me, you know what did you see? That kind 563 00:57:54.440 --> 00:58:05.559 of stuff? When I was interested enough in this that I read arguably an 564 00:58:05.559 --> 00:58:15.000 inordinate amount of material on the peripheral topics like memory and hypnosis as a memory 565 00:58:15.079 --> 00:58:22.079 retrieval tool and things like that, and you're you're absolutely just hitting the nail 566 00:58:22.159 --> 00:58:27.320 on the head there, Martin. That I, for instance, had a 567 00:58:27.480 --> 00:58:34.480 UFO siding many years ago, and from what I've read about memory, I'm 568 00:58:34.559 --> 00:58:37.920 to the point where I like, really don't even want to talk about it 569 00:58:37.960 --> 00:58:42.400 with people and stuff, because I probably don't know what happened, all right, 570 00:58:42.400 --> 00:58:45.199 So now we're going to talk about it. That's right. Now. 571 00:58:45.280 --> 00:58:51.199 You end up, you end up with a memory of telling the story. 572 00:58:51.719 --> 00:58:54.719 That's exactly I've been doing. I've talked about this on this show a few 573 00:58:54.760 --> 00:59:00.960 times that I myself too, have been looking into memory. And you know, 574 00:59:00.039 --> 00:59:06.760 you you, you're exactly right. You start piecing back what you Each 575 00:59:06.800 --> 00:59:10.199 time you think of something, you're rebuilding it in your head. You're rebuilding 576 00:59:10.199 --> 00:59:14.480 it in your mind, and you're rebuilding it from what you remembered the last 577 00:59:14.480 --> 00:59:16.679 time you told it, you know. So it's uh, it is. 578 00:59:16.840 --> 00:59:22.199 It is very faltering. You know. I thought I had my uf host 579 00:59:22.199 --> 00:59:24.880 sighting. I've told on this this show many times. It was not real 580 00:59:24.960 --> 00:59:29.719 exciting. But I'd like to think that I have it accurately. But you 581 00:59:29.760 --> 00:59:34.119 know, perhaps I don't, you know, And I remember recently I was 582 00:59:34.159 --> 00:59:37.320 thinking, was that two thousand and six or two thousand and seven? I 583 00:59:37.360 --> 00:59:40.639 wasn't you know? So, but I do, honestly, even though you 584 00:59:40.639 --> 00:59:44.039 don't want to tell it, I do want to hear about your UFO story. 585 00:59:44.039 --> 00:59:47.400 If you know, I was a child in Charlotte, North Carolina, 586 00:59:47.519 --> 00:59:57.760 and I saw something that um it's hard to describe. We might describe it 587 00:59:57.880 --> 01:00:05.519 as a v or or protractor shaped that was spinning, and so as an 588 01:00:05.519 --> 01:00:09.840 adult, I think back it was nighttime. I think back and think, 589 01:00:09.960 --> 01:00:15.280 Okay, I guess maybe the way lights were hitting an object made it look 590 01:00:15.400 --> 01:00:22.760 like something spinning in that way, trying to, you know, get my 591 01:00:22.800 --> 01:00:27.960 mind wrapped around what it might have been. And at this point in my 592 01:00:28.000 --> 01:00:31.840 life, it just kind of come to the realization, I don't know, 593 01:00:32.119 --> 01:00:37.880 and I'm just okay with I don't know what I saw, and that's just 594 01:00:37.000 --> 01:00:43.800 kind of how it has to be. And the more we talk about these 595 01:00:43.840 --> 01:00:50.639 things, then the more people are entitled to want to ask questions and Okay, 596 01:00:50.679 --> 01:00:53.960 well, what where were you, what was the date, Let's look 597 01:00:54.000 --> 01:01:00.599 at airplane traffic, let's look at weather forecast, And then you start having 598 01:01:00.679 --> 01:01:07.920 people trying to tell you what happened, and it should come as no surprise. 599 01:01:08.000 --> 01:01:14.360 It often tends to be what they think happened to them that they start 600 01:01:14.440 --> 01:01:22.400 telling you, yeah, is what you witnessed. And that's actually how I 601 01:01:22.559 --> 01:01:31.320 got into a lot of the skeptical side of my points of view was experiencing 602 01:01:31.360 --> 01:01:38.599 that there can be such a feeling of people pulling on each arm in a 603 01:01:38.639 --> 01:01:45.239 different direction in the UFO genre to try to get you in the alien camp 604 01:01:45.360 --> 01:01:51.320 or the interdimensional camp, or the mind control camp, or you know that 605 01:01:51.880 --> 01:01:54.920 what was it that happened? And you know, And then there's people that 606 01:01:55.000 --> 01:02:00.840 would say, I don't know you you saw a weather balloon with lights bouncing 607 01:02:00.920 --> 01:02:06.719 off at how should I know? And so kind of back to where we 608 01:02:06.840 --> 01:02:12.000 started. I really empathize with people and want to give them their space for 609 01:02:12.199 --> 01:02:20.079 their self discovery. And at the same time, the skeptics have that right 610 01:02:20.320 --> 01:02:25.039 to to say, I don't know if somebody's jumping out here saying they've got 611 01:02:25.480 --> 01:02:38.159 material from a interplanetary or interdimensional spacecraft that they're doing tests on. That requires 612 01:02:38.159 --> 01:02:45.239 a little more than just you know, anecdotal personal stories, you know, 613 01:02:46.199 --> 01:02:51.400 right, So if you're just joining us live now, we're on with Jack 614 01:02:51.440 --> 01:02:53.559 Brewer, and I did want to announce that this is our four hundred and 615 01:02:53.599 --> 01:02:59.760 ninety ninth show, so that means next week is five hundred and next week's 616 01:02:59.760 --> 01:03:02.960 gonna be a call in show. So I want an everyone that's listening to 617 01:03:04.039 --> 01:03:07.920 this to get ready to call in next week. And if we Bill's probably 618 01:03:07.920 --> 01:03:10.559 going to help me out if we don't, if we have some dead space, 619 01:03:10.840 --> 01:03:15.760 but get your questions ready for next week. It's a call in show. 620 01:03:15.800 --> 01:03:19.360 Should be a lot of fun. Speaking of that, in about twenty 621 01:03:19.360 --> 01:03:22.360 minutes, we'll be opening up the phone lines. If you have any questions 622 01:03:22.400 --> 01:03:29.199 for our guests this evening. Jack, here's a question someone, Are you 623 01:03:29.199 --> 01:03:34.159 even familiar with the term hitchhiker effect? I am familiar. Yeah, so 624 01:03:34.159 --> 01:03:40.119 someone to know if you had anything like that with your experience. I guess 625 01:03:40.639 --> 01:03:45.199 a lot of people maintain that they are having these things kind of follow them, 626 01:03:46.039 --> 01:03:52.000 which is kind of interesting. I think that kind of falls into a 627 01:03:52.039 --> 01:04:00.800 belief system. Personally, I do not think that I have some type of 628 01:04:01.519 --> 01:04:15.639 phenomenon, any supernatural phenomenon in my life. I would not want to debate 629 01:04:15.119 --> 01:04:21.679 people that believe they do. If that's what they want to go with, 630 01:04:21.840 --> 01:04:27.519 farbe it from me to argue it, as long as they don't want to 631 01:04:27.559 --> 01:04:33.320 impose that belief on me. I think we're really looking at like two different 632 01:04:33.400 --> 01:04:42.960 sets of circumstances here, Martin In that there's hanging out with friends late night 633 01:04:43.000 --> 01:04:46.719 at Denny's and somebody tells you about something that happened to them once, and 634 01:04:46.800 --> 01:04:55.320 you're giving them emotional support for their belief system. Then there are people that 635 01:04:55.480 --> 01:05:03.719 want to take podiums at quote conferences unquote and present their material as researchers, 636 01:05:05.280 --> 01:05:13.480 And then we, as researchers or in interested public, have the right and 637 01:05:13.599 --> 01:05:24.840 the responsibility to fact check it and hold them responsible for the assertions they make 638 01:05:25.440 --> 01:05:32.320 if they're uh assertions do not hold up to the evidence they like, if 639 01:05:32.360 --> 01:05:40.880 the evidence they presented is not in proportion to UH the and and in my 640 01:05:41.000 --> 01:05:47.039 opinion, the hitchhiker effect falls into that category. I understand it's long been 641 01:05:47.559 --> 01:05:55.840 a part of the UFO lore, the multiple abductions in families, the multiple 642 01:05:55.960 --> 01:06:04.679 experiences. And I wouldn't argue if someone has that belief in a religious or 643 01:06:04.760 --> 01:06:12.039 spiritual or personal context, but if you want to present it to me as 644 01:06:12.079 --> 01:06:24.880 a researcher happening in an objective reality, I would want to see the specific 645 01:06:25.079 --> 01:06:30.960 data that shows cause and effect there I don't think I'm certain has not been 646 01:06:30.760 --> 01:06:34.599 established. Yeah, it seems like that would be kind of a nightmare, 647 01:06:34.960 --> 01:06:38.400 you know, I mean, if you think about it, you know, 648 01:06:38.400 --> 01:06:42.440 I mean, just a terrible thing to think you're done with something, and 649 01:06:42.480 --> 01:06:48.039 then something keeps happening and it gets really existential if we let it. You 650 01:06:48.079 --> 01:06:55.400 know, like I got a phone call, I got in my car, 651 01:06:55.559 --> 01:06:59.840 I drove to the grocery store, I got another phone call. Well, 652 01:07:00.000 --> 01:07:04.760 are not related in the least and in the grand scheme of things, everything's 653 01:07:04.920 --> 01:07:11.760 directly related and is on a cause and effect timeline. So you know how 654 01:07:12.320 --> 01:07:16.400 existential and philosophical do we want to get? Or like I say, are 655 01:07:16.440 --> 01:07:25.800 we going to stick to in a research recognized by the professional research community and 656 01:07:25.880 --> 01:07:31.960 those kinds of standards of evidence, Can you show me the chain of cause 657 01:07:32.039 --> 01:07:41.159 and effect that these circumstances are directly related? Right? Someone wants This is 658 01:07:41.239 --> 01:07:47.159 a question that I often ask myself, is just for an opinion, and 659 01:07:47.639 --> 01:07:53.480 that is, do you believe that it's probably some of these UFOs are otherworldly 660 01:07:53.960 --> 01:07:58.000 devices? I ask? I ask in general that question, like what do 661 01:07:58.000 --> 01:08:02.079 you think that people might be seeing if it's not explainable in our terms, 662 01:08:02.239 --> 01:08:09.719 that if it's not something that we can explain from here. I'm smiling because 663 01:08:10.599 --> 01:08:15.039 my first thought was just you know, well my opinion, no, I 664 01:08:15.559 --> 01:08:18.079 don't think so, And then I thought, and then the host will go, 665 01:08:18.359 --> 01:08:23.439 well, thanks for joining us. We'll we'll move along to somebody else 666 01:08:23.520 --> 01:08:27.720 that like David Letterman said, ones, maybe I can come over to your 667 01:08:27.760 --> 01:08:32.319 house and chew gum sometime. I remember he said that to uh, I'm 668 01:08:32.359 --> 01:08:36.199 trying to remember. That was U Rivers. No, there was yeah, 669 01:08:36.279 --> 01:08:43.319 yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, coming in an interview, I 670 01:08:43.319 --> 01:08:46.560 remember, yeah, yeah, that was bizarre. Yeah. So no, 671 01:08:46.680 --> 01:08:53.479 I don't think it it's probable. I think there's a lot of explanations for 672 01:08:53.640 --> 01:09:00.359 UFOs. I think there's a whole lot of them. Um, exotic classified 673 01:09:00.439 --> 01:09:11.600 aircraft, misidentifications of identifiable flying objects, weather phenomena, just general tricks on 674 01:09:11.680 --> 01:09:18.279 your eyes. Are some of them representations of some kind of yet do be 675 01:09:18.279 --> 01:09:25.439 better understood phenomena? Well, the Brown Mountain lights, the work being done 676 01:09:25.479 --> 01:09:32.039 in Hesdalen might lead us to think that is the case. I wouldn't rule 677 01:09:32.119 --> 01:09:38.560 it out. I don't think that's what critical thinking and healthy skepticism is about. 678 01:09:39.399 --> 01:09:47.680 But I think it's a very small percentage of the cases that we're looking 679 01:09:47.720 --> 01:09:55.760 at. And that's just my opinion. Well, you know, there are 680 01:09:55.880 --> 01:09:59.760 some cases, and I even brought this up last week. You know, 681 01:09:59.800 --> 01:10:04.439 the Ariel school incident in South Africa. To me, that's an incredible case. 682 01:10:04.920 --> 01:10:08.560 Um. Then there's you know, the two thousand and four tik Tak 683 01:10:08.680 --> 01:10:14.359 with military involved. Once again military but with a lot of data that is 684 01:10:14.520 --> 01:10:17.439 very hard to explain. Some people claim that they think it may be, 685 01:10:18.079 --> 01:10:23.800 as you said, something military, but that doesn't really fit in the realm 686 01:10:23.840 --> 01:10:28.760 of what happened there. So yeah, I think there's I'm never saying that 687 01:10:28.840 --> 01:10:32.800 I know what these things are, and I tell people if they're interested in, 688 01:10:33.600 --> 01:10:38.920 um, you know, paying attention to the subject. If someone says 689 01:10:38.960 --> 01:10:42.880 they know what it is, then run, you know, because I don't 690 01:10:42.920 --> 01:10:45.520 think anyone has the real answer, you know, to what it to what 691 01:10:45.600 --> 01:10:49.159 it really is at this point for all of them, some of them. 692 01:10:49.239 --> 01:10:54.800 I'm glad when things can get explained as to what they are. Myself, 693 01:10:54.840 --> 01:10:58.279 when someone figures it out. I mean, I myself. I brought this 694 01:10:58.399 --> 01:11:00.199 up recently. I'll just put it up as just a quick little clip. 695 01:11:00.720 --> 01:11:03.279 But um, I thought I was seeing a UFO right here in the play 696 01:11:03.399 --> 01:11:10.960 right now, and what it really is if you're looking, it's hard to 697 01:11:11.000 --> 01:11:15.720 see this. It looks like a disk here and then all of a sudden 698 01:11:15.720 --> 01:11:20.880 you see it goes sideways and then you see two and it kind of disappears 699 01:11:20.880 --> 01:11:26.399 and they and they both come back and what it was as it got closer, 700 01:11:26.439 --> 01:11:29.880 it was an airplane that had a banner behind it, and it was 701 01:11:29.920 --> 01:11:33.319 turning around. And I had just got to Miami, and I thought for 702 01:11:33.359 --> 01:11:39.039 sure I was seeing myself a UFO right off the bat As soon as I 703 01:11:39.079 --> 01:11:43.560 got to where I was like, oh my god. But yeah, it's 704 01:11:43.880 --> 01:11:45.760 I like when those things can be explained. I mean, it would be 705 01:11:45.800 --> 01:11:51.279 really amazing if it was unexplainable, but that one, you know, Yes, 706 01:11:51.920 --> 01:12:00.159 the banner airplanes are are a big one. I've seen clips over the 707 01:12:00.239 --> 01:12:05.479 years that looked absolutely fascinating, and then they were able to correlate it with 708 01:12:05.720 --> 01:12:11.239 a flight pattern of a plane with a banner, and then when you look 709 01:12:11.239 --> 01:12:14.319 at it, when you're told what it is, you can kind of see 710 01:12:14.359 --> 01:12:19.000 it. Yeah. But yeah, um, I had a similar experience once 711 01:12:20.159 --> 01:12:28.760 with You've heard that people mistake birds a night for UFOs, Yes, And 712 01:12:29.439 --> 01:12:33.680 I remember they used to tell us that at the planetarium when we were kids, 713 01:12:34.279 --> 01:12:39.479 and I was like, what kind of idiot you know mistakes a goose 714 01:12:39.680 --> 01:12:44.399 for the mothership? You know? And uh, yeah, yeah, like, 715 01:12:44.479 --> 01:12:47.800 oh, I thought I saw a star cruiser from another solar system. 716 01:12:47.920 --> 01:12:55.159 My bad, It's just a dub, you know. Yeah. And then 717 01:12:55.439 --> 01:13:00.000 one night, as they say, I'm walking across the parking and out of 718 01:13:00.039 --> 01:13:05.000 the corner of my eye, I see what, for all the world looks 719 01:13:05.079 --> 01:13:13.640 like a saucer shaped craft going at an incredible speed, all the way across 720 01:13:13.720 --> 01:13:19.520 the sky. And fortunately, at the angle I was standing, I was 721 01:13:19.680 --> 01:13:28.119 able to see for a brief instant when the when this bird flew out of 722 01:13:28.159 --> 01:13:32.000 the light that was reflecting on its belly, looking like a saucer shape, 723 01:13:32.199 --> 01:13:36.920 I saw for an instant as it flew through the dark and then on out 724 01:13:36.920 --> 01:13:44.920 of sight, and it was only you know, maybe sixty seventy feet off 725 01:13:44.960 --> 01:13:49.000 the ground. And because and I actually thought, it's kind of ironic. 726 01:13:49.359 --> 01:13:58.399 I've spent so much more time looking at clips and photos of saucers that my 727 01:13:58.479 --> 01:14:03.199 mind immediately goes, too, must be a saucer eight miles high flying at 728 01:14:03.199 --> 01:14:09.239 an incredible rate of speed, rather than a bird seventy five feet at the 729 01:14:09.359 --> 01:14:13.479 air, you know, headed home with some dinner or whatever it was doing. 730 01:14:14.079 --> 01:14:19.399 And it Yeah, I mean, who knows how many people like I 731 01:14:19.479 --> 01:14:23.720 was saying, you know, whatever I saw when I was a kid just 732 01:14:23.840 --> 01:14:30.680 becomes a lifelong quest to find the answer to this mystery. That almost is 733 01:14:30.760 --> 01:14:36.840 like a karmic joke, like you know, ah, could could even be 734 01:14:36.920 --> 01:14:45.359 considered a cruel joke if it was just something mundane like that. But again, 735 01:14:45.479 --> 01:14:49.399 you know, existentialism in the grand scheme of things, If it helps 736 01:14:49.479 --> 01:14:56.439 us with our own self discovery, well then you know whatever it is that 737 01:14:57.199 --> 01:15:01.079 does the trick. I guess right, I was sent people. A lot 738 01:15:01.119 --> 01:15:05.720 of people will send me their UFO video clips, not really the person to 739 01:15:05.840 --> 01:15:11.439 send that to. And I have a friend, Mark D'Antonio, that is 740 01:15:11.479 --> 01:15:13.840 a person to send that too, but he's very busy, you know, 741 01:15:13.880 --> 01:15:15.319 people send him things all the time. But I do get a lot of 742 01:15:15.319 --> 01:15:20.560 clips and recently I had one sent to me and I figured out that it 743 01:15:20.640 --> 01:15:26.199 was a bird, you know what I mean. And but the person did 744 01:15:26.239 --> 01:15:30.119 not really want to hear that, you know, and seemed to get pretty 745 01:15:30.279 --> 01:15:35.399 pretty upset at me by calling it a bird. But I could clearly see 746 01:15:35.520 --> 01:15:39.920 after I blew it up on my I have a big screen, I blew 747 01:15:39.960 --> 01:15:42.479 it up. You could easily see that it was a bird and it was 748 01:15:42.520 --> 01:15:45.000 just the angle. It was that you couldn't see the wings flapping. You 749 01:15:45.079 --> 01:15:49.039 know. That's it's always about angles and light reflection, and a lot of 750 01:15:49.039 --> 01:15:55.359 times you'll see birds at a very high altitude that are catching the sunlight from 751 01:15:55.359 --> 01:15:59.920 an angle and they'll look like orbs. So there's a lot of times birds 752 01:16:00.119 --> 01:16:05.279 do look very mysterious, and so yeah, we all have to be careful 753 01:16:05.279 --> 01:16:11.920 of what we're looking at. Yes, and what you experienced is another aspect 754 01:16:12.039 --> 01:16:21.439 the detrimental side of UFO investigation and investigating reports of what we might call high 755 01:16:21.560 --> 01:16:31.319 strangeness alien abduction for lack of a better term that it. People often don't 756 01:16:31.359 --> 01:16:40.720 want to hear what it is that we might as researchers actually think happened, 757 01:16:41.159 --> 01:16:46.960 and I think as witnesses we have some responsibility then, like how I said, 758 01:16:47.000 --> 01:16:51.920 I really don't want to talk a lot about my UFO siding. I 759 01:16:53.079 --> 01:17:00.079 have a responsibility to decide am I looking for emotional support or am I looking 760 01:17:00.479 --> 01:17:08.640 for investigative support? What kind of support am I looking for? Because they're 761 01:17:08.680 --> 01:17:16.159 completely different, and as investigators, we have the responsibilities to make clear what 762 01:17:16.279 --> 01:17:21.920 we're willing to give, and it's very difficult to try to be someone's friend 763 01:17:23.439 --> 01:17:32.239 and an objective investigator and give them emotional support and then also be honest to 764 01:17:32.279 --> 01:17:40.920 them when we need to that. I think you know that these eighteen things, 765 01:17:41.039 --> 01:17:45.159 you think we're all strange, like at least fifteen of them. I 766 01:17:45.199 --> 01:17:48.720 think you're just kind of lumping in with a couple of things. You know, 767 01:17:49.199 --> 01:17:55.319 again, we don't know what the cause and effect is and it can 768 01:17:55.359 --> 01:18:02.439 get very challenging, and as both investigators and witnesses, we have responsibilities to 769 01:18:02.479 --> 01:18:10.279 clarify what we're looking for from a person and if we're able to give it 770 01:18:10.479 --> 01:18:15.199 or if they're able to give it. I think, hmm, here's a 771 01:18:15.319 --> 01:18:18.359 question from Kelly Kid what do you think about the skin Walker ranch? And 772 01:18:18.720 --> 01:18:25.119 this can nicely segue into something you sent me earlier today. Yes, I 773 01:18:25.720 --> 01:18:31.880 M My general thinking about the skin Walker ranch is I know, maybe I'm 774 01:18:31.920 --> 01:18:40.920 not very interested, but I'm predictable. I'm kind of a broken record about 775 01:18:40.960 --> 01:18:45.119 again, as Banal says, show me the alien is the short answer for 776 01:18:47.479 --> 01:19:00.199 I've heard data is being scientifically catalogued for forty years and I've yet to see 777 01:19:00.479 --> 01:19:06.159 a coherent, cogent representation of what any of it is. Or what it's 778 01:19:06.199 --> 01:19:14.920 supposed to tell me. So until that time comes, I have really no 779 01:19:15.119 --> 01:19:19.079 choice but to shrug my shoulders and say the best you can do is to 780 01:19:19.159 --> 01:19:26.960 spend judgment. And if people want to start being cynical and critical, I 781 01:19:27.439 --> 01:19:33.119 think they have a right. What Martin is alluding to that I told them 782 01:19:33.159 --> 01:19:44.079 about earlier is just yesterday I got some documents back from the Defense Intelligence Agency, 783 01:19:44.199 --> 01:19:57.880 the DA that was reportedly the the agency that contracted the Advanced Aerospace Weapon 784 01:19:58.479 --> 01:20:04.199 System applic Location Program, which I think many of us came to know as 785 01:20:04.319 --> 01:20:11.960 a SAP. UH it's the Pentagon UFO program, or at least one aspect 786 01:20:12.039 --> 01:20:18.359 of it, and the d I A. M. H gave me verification 787 01:20:18.640 --> 01:20:30.359 through um some FOIA documents that Bigelow Aerospace did in fact get an award for 788 01:20:30.560 --> 01:20:36.039 the as AP project and that they they got the grant UM, as reported 789 01:20:36.079 --> 01:20:45.359 by Harry Reid and h interesting aspects of the Foyer release that you can see. 790 01:20:45.439 --> 01:20:50.239 You can access all of the documents and read my blog post about it 791 01:20:50.319 --> 01:21:00.680 at my blog The UFO Trail. Interesting aspects about it include that there were 792 01:21:00.760 --> 01:21:09.880 people affiliated with the project hyping it up and saying how effective it was at 793 01:21:09.920 --> 01:21:16.640 what we now know was the same time that it was being funding was being 794 01:21:16.680 --> 01:21:24.000 resisted by the Department of Defense, the d IA, the Department of Homeland 795 01:21:24.079 --> 01:21:30.159 Security, and uh, there's some different ways we could take different things we 796 01:21:30.159 --> 01:21:35.800 could take away from that. As we mentioned earlier, there's certainly an aspect 797 01:21:35.840 --> 01:21:45.239 of it that's among what we might call a credulous crowd that is always going 798 01:21:45.319 --> 01:21:53.479 to say they were onto something and the government's hiding it. And then there's 799 01:21:53.520 --> 01:22:01.560 a skeptical crowd that that might say the funding review boards that would give out 800 01:22:01.720 --> 01:22:11.439 funding to continue these projects was apparently more difficult to convince than some of the 801 01:22:11.560 --> 01:22:16.359 journalists that ran with the story. And then there are some more middle of 802 01:22:16.399 --> 01:22:23.079 the road that might say, uh, well it got some money, and 803 01:22:23.199 --> 01:22:29.359 it did get funded, Bigelow did get funding, and we need to see 804 01:22:29.520 --> 01:22:34.600 if anything significant came of this. There is nothing in the documents that would 805 01:22:34.640 --> 01:22:44.600 specifically indicate it was about UFOs or UAP as compared to weapons applications programs. 806 01:22:45.960 --> 01:22:54.359 The the theoretical papers that have already been discussed widely, and another interesting aspect 807 01:22:54.479 --> 01:23:00.680 of it, something that jumped out at me Martin was one of the tracks 808 01:23:00.800 --> 01:23:06.800 that the DA gave me says that Bigelow's Aerospace was to be paid ten million 809 01:23:06.880 --> 01:23:15.079 dollars from the National Security Agency. And I don't know exactly why checks would 810 01:23:15.119 --> 01:23:20.600 be cut from the NSA if it was a d I A project. I'm 811 01:23:20.640 --> 01:23:27.319 not familiar enough with their protocol and with their protocol in two thousand and nine 812 01:23:27.399 --> 01:23:33.600 two ten to know why that might be. I did remember, though, 813 01:23:33.680 --> 01:23:42.000 there have long been rumors that the NSA was involved at Skinwalker Ranch, and 814 01:23:42.119 --> 01:23:49.319 so I kind of wondered if this at least is some of the source of 815 01:23:49.359 --> 01:23:58.479 where some of these rumors come from. Well, it's it's all interesting. 816 01:23:58.880 --> 01:24:05.079 And do you think that there is the possibility that there's some documents that have 817 01:24:05.359 --> 01:24:13.159 just not been found yet or do you think that, Yes, I anticipate 818 01:24:13.359 --> 01:24:21.520 that DIA will be giving us a significant amount in a document release sometime after 819 01:24:21.680 --> 01:24:31.159 the end of the year. They continue to make me and other Foyer researchers 820 01:24:31.439 --> 01:24:40.479 aware that a number of our FOIA requests on documents pertaining to a TIP and 821 01:24:40.680 --> 01:24:49.039 as SAPP and general UFO program stuff like any contracts they had deliverables reports that 822 01:24:49.119 --> 01:24:56.920 were filed. A lot of those foias remain open, and the d IA 823 01:24:57.079 --> 01:25:02.920 tells us that sometime around the end of the year they plan to release the 824 01:25:03.039 --> 01:25:09.600 material that they have been reviewing, and at that point in time they will 825 01:25:09.640 --> 01:25:15.800 post it the d I A will post it at their FOIA online reading room. 826 01:25:16.479 --> 01:25:25.399 Interesting, and I saw documents recently come out through John Greenwald's Black Fault. 827 01:25:25.479 --> 01:25:29.479 Does this have anything to do with Are they related in any type of 828 01:25:29.479 --> 01:25:36.159 week? Probably so, John. He has done a lot of foilier work 829 01:25:36.840 --> 01:25:45.079 on the Pentagon programs, So if it's d IA and Biggelow, it probably 830 01:25:45.239 --> 01:25:49.800 is related. Yes. Yeah, He's been doing such a great work for 831 01:25:49.880 --> 01:25:54.960 so many years, pretty amazing since he was a young sixteen years old or 832 01:25:54.960 --> 01:25:59.079 something like that, right when he started to which is pretty amazing. And 833 01:25:59.199 --> 01:26:03.960 uh, yeah that I think that website gets. I forget how many views 834 01:26:04.000 --> 01:26:09.279 per day, but it's it's amazing how many people come to that every single 835 01:26:09.359 --> 01:26:13.520 day and look for something. You know. I don't know how many documents 836 01:26:13.520 --> 01:26:17.039 are on there, but it's I've certainly used it as a source. He 837 01:26:17.159 --> 01:26:24.800 has done admirable work with the FLIA right right, And it's not an easy 838 01:26:24.880 --> 01:26:27.359 thing to do, you know, from what I understand, you have to 839 01:26:27.359 --> 01:26:31.279 be very precise, and there's so many ways your requests can be rejected, 840 01:26:31.840 --> 01:26:38.560 and you have to be very specific at what you're want wanting, and they 841 01:26:38.600 --> 01:26:43.239 can jump right over the topic you want if you say it in some type 842 01:26:43.239 --> 01:26:48.640 of unusual way or whatever. Yes, and in best case scenarios, it 843 01:26:48.680 --> 01:26:55.880 can even take years, sometimes not sometimes a few weeks, depending on what 844 01:26:55.920 --> 01:27:04.039 it is that we ask for. But the general way to do it is 845 01:27:04.159 --> 01:27:12.239 request a lot of stuff regularly. I do, maybe I don't know. 846 01:27:12.319 --> 01:27:19.520 I probably average two or three requests a week, and then over time you 847 01:27:19.600 --> 01:27:26.760 get to where you're getting something once a week or so, like after two 848 01:27:26.840 --> 01:27:30.119 or three years, you're you're getting something to read and look at. And 849 01:27:30.239 --> 01:27:34.560 I don't want to look for just arbitrary things like I don't want to just 850 01:27:34.680 --> 01:27:42.960 be a thorn in their side. So like Nightcap, I probably have oh 851 01:27:43.000 --> 01:27:48.760 gosh, probably eighty different Foyer requests on one person or another or a board 852 01:27:48.840 --> 01:27:55.399 they were affiliated with, or an office of the CIA, And so as 853 01:27:55.439 --> 01:28:00.159 those continue to come in, I'll keep posting them. But yeah, if 854 01:28:00.159 --> 01:28:03.640 you just send one request and wait for four years to see what they say, 855 01:28:04.319 --> 01:28:09.880 it can be very uninteresting that way. Yeah, Okay, the lines 856 01:28:09.880 --> 01:28:14.359 are open. The phone number is eight five five four seven two five four 857 01:28:14.479 --> 01:28:17.359 eight three. Bill is standing by if you'd like to call in for our 858 01:28:18.079 --> 01:28:23.119 guests tonight and don't forget next week is all calls in. But if you 859 01:28:23.319 --> 01:28:26.199 like to call in, please give us a ring. Bill will be standing 860 01:28:26.199 --> 01:28:30.399 by. We have bounced all over the place, but let's talk now. 861 01:28:30.800 --> 01:28:34.640 You can get into your other book a little bit more if you'd like to 862 01:28:34.680 --> 01:28:43.159 discuss more of what that's about. Sure um. I mentioned a couple of 863 01:28:43.239 --> 01:28:49.439 times that the UFO community may be better called the UFO subculture, has a 864 01:28:49.479 --> 01:28:58.800 tendency to try to pull people into one camp or other and persuade people it 865 01:28:58.920 --> 01:29:04.079 can It can become a lot like lobbying efforts or even rooting for a favorite 866 01:29:04.159 --> 01:29:14.680 sports team or something, where it becomes ideological and not so much about often 867 01:29:14.960 --> 01:29:24.399 rarely about credible research that meets professional research standards. And I felt like in 868 01:29:24.479 --> 01:29:31.079 the grades had been framed that I had some things to say that that needed 869 01:29:31.119 --> 01:29:39.720 to be said about topics such as hypnosis as a memory retrieval tool, and 870 01:29:40.399 --> 01:29:49.760 some of the the way that researchers were put on pedestals and not questioned about 871 01:29:49.840 --> 01:30:00.920 their tactics and can continue by a certain segment of the community that doesn't understand 872 01:30:01.039 --> 01:30:09.039 memory, that doesn't understand the damage that can be done to people that use 873 01:30:09.199 --> 01:30:15.359 memory retrieval techniques to try to hammer at a single memory. From twenty thirty 874 01:30:15.479 --> 01:30:23.760 forty five years ago, and I started getting into as well in that book, 875 01:30:24.359 --> 01:30:32.600 the way that the intelligence community overlaps into the UFO genre, and there 876 01:30:32.800 --> 01:30:45.960 there's a disturbing similarity between UFO hypnotism and the satanic panic memory retrieval and how 877 01:30:46.000 --> 01:30:54.560 people were accused of just terrible things that they didn't do, and the intelligence 878 01:30:54.640 --> 01:31:02.600 community use of hypnosis as an interrogation tool, and we tend to think that 879 01:31:02.600 --> 01:31:10.800 that stopped around the MK Ultra era, maybe during the mid seventies, but 880 01:31:10.920 --> 01:31:19.479 there's plenty of evidence that it continues to be used hypnotesis as an interrogation technique 881 01:31:19.840 --> 01:31:30.119 in the intelligence community and as a way to try to influence people. And 882 01:31:30.319 --> 01:31:36.880 so I explore that, and I explore some specific cases, like, like 883 01:31:36.920 --> 01:31:42.680 we mentioned earlier, the Bill Moore case, but there were other people during 884 01:31:42.840 --> 01:31:50.079 that era as well that had strange interactions with the Air Force Office of Special 885 01:31:50.159 --> 01:31:57.880 Investigations and that seemed to have been set up to some extent. Simone Mendez 886 01:31:58.520 --> 01:32:02.800 is who I'm talking about, and I explore her case and a few other 887 01:32:02.840 --> 01:32:13.359 cases as well in specifics that we again, we just find this overlap with 888 01:32:13.479 --> 01:32:20.239 the intelligence community that it I find it hard to believe that their primary concern 889 01:32:20.800 --> 01:32:30.800 is something about UFOs or or extraterrestrials or something of that nature in these different 890 01:32:30.840 --> 01:32:39.039 cases. M here's a question from Jackson, jack what for your document has 891 01:32:39.079 --> 01:32:45.680 made the biggest impression on your work within for you? That's a good question. 892 01:32:45.880 --> 01:32:51.600 The first one that comes to mind is one of the things that made 893 01:32:51.640 --> 01:32:59.079 me say, Okay, I'm just gonna go with a book about NYECAP was 894 01:33:00.079 --> 01:33:09.119 FOIA documents I got from the FBI on Nicholas Droque for who was almost certainly 895 01:33:09.159 --> 01:33:19.800 a CIA asset and was heavily involved in the China lobby in nineteen fifties Washington, 896 01:33:19.920 --> 01:33:28.439 DC, and was in a circle of friends at the highest highest levels 897 01:33:28.680 --> 01:33:35.640 of government. When the FBI was doing their investigative review on him, they 898 01:33:35.680 --> 01:33:41.159 went all the way to the Joint Chiefs of Staff for statements on him because 899 01:33:41.199 --> 01:33:46.279 he knew people there. And then this guy for whatever reasons was a Nightcap 900 01:33:46.600 --> 01:33:54.800 organizer and one of the first people to work in Nightcap. And the FOIA 901 01:33:55.000 --> 01:34:01.279 document that I got that I thought was really interesting was that while the Washington 902 01:34:01.399 --> 01:34:10.960 Field office was doing an investigation on rope For, they sent Director Hoover a 903 01:34:11.119 --> 01:34:17.439 memo that is heavily redacted, heavily blacked out, that states that they talked 904 01:34:17.439 --> 01:34:28.560 to a confidential informant about rope and that the information was given to them under 905 01:34:29.479 --> 01:34:35.560 the agreement that it was not to be shared with other agencies or investigators or 906 01:34:35.600 --> 01:34:45.880 even outside of Hoover's office. And so when the Washington FBI man sent this 907 01:34:45.960 --> 01:34:50.199 to Hoover with his reports, he sent copies of the reports for the other 908 01:34:50.319 --> 01:34:57.960 offices, but only this one letter to Hoover, and the information is blacked 909 01:34:57.960 --> 01:35:06.640 out that the informant gave him about Ropefort, and very interestingly, this was 910 01:35:08.279 --> 01:35:15.920 the month after Nightcap was incorporated. It was November nineteen fifty six, during 911 01:35:16.000 --> 01:35:24.680 the time Ropefort was working with Nightcap. I requested a review of the document 912 01:35:24.880 --> 01:35:32.039 for further disclosure, and the FBI conducted the review but declined to offer any 913 01:35:32.079 --> 01:35:39.640 further information on it, and so that really intrigued me, and I began 914 01:35:39.760 --> 01:35:45.760 looking more and more into Ropeford and his associates that were involved in incorporating and 915 01:35:45.840 --> 01:35:58.119 launching Nightcap. Now what caused Nightcap to basically fall apart in nineteen eighty I 916 01:35:58.159 --> 01:36:00.520 saw there was a lot of infighting. Do you think any of that was 917 01:36:00.600 --> 01:36:08.840 related to the intelligence community. Well, there were always people linked to, 918 01:36:09.159 --> 01:36:17.279 if not directly employed with the CIA in the final years of NIECAP on its 919 01:36:17.399 --> 01:36:23.720 board, managing it, taking care of phone calls, things like that. 920 01:36:25.720 --> 01:36:34.119 The demise of NIECAP really started in nineteen sixty nine when they removed Donald Kehoe 921 01:36:34.119 --> 01:36:44.399 and Gordon Lore from their positions and they put some other people in and morale 922 01:36:44.560 --> 01:36:50.960 was bad. They tried to hang on during the seventies and even did some 923 01:36:51.279 --> 01:37:00.159 reasonably interesting investigations and printed some materials that were reasonably interesting, but it never 924 01:37:00.239 --> 01:37:06.000 had the boots on the ground enthusiasm that the mid nineteen sixties NIECAP had, 925 01:37:06.600 --> 01:37:13.800 and by the nineteen eighties was little more than just a name on paper, 926 01:37:14.319 --> 01:37:20.079 and I think it was nineteen eighty two was actually sold to the Center for 927 01:37:20.319 --> 01:37:29.840 UFO Studies and the Alan Jay Allan Heineck group. But even in the nineteen 928 01:37:29.960 --> 01:37:41.119 sixties, Keyhoe was starting to lose his swagger with Nightcap, and when the 929 01:37:41.159 --> 01:37:46.880 point came that the congressional hearings and a UFO study conducted at the University of 930 01:37:46.960 --> 01:37:56.960 Colorado known as the Condon Report didn't go the way Keyhoe and Niecap wanted. 931 01:37:58.079 --> 01:38:01.600 Some people feel like that the CIA said, Okay, now's our chance, 932 01:38:01.800 --> 01:38:09.800 let's stop this shenanigans. Other people feel like Kehoe kind of dug his own 933 01:38:09.920 --> 01:38:15.199 grave, and that people were tired of bashing the Air Force, bashing the 934 01:38:15.319 --> 01:38:20.800 CIA. Remember, that was a point in time that patriotic Americans wanted to 935 01:38:20.840 --> 01:38:27.880 be behind the FBI and the Air Force, and a much different time. 936 01:38:30.800 --> 01:38:35.159 I tend to think a little of all of that's involved. If the CIA 937 01:38:35.479 --> 01:38:43.159 launched Nightcap, which I'm pretty thoroughly convinced it did, and I think there 938 01:38:43.159 --> 01:38:49.079 were people working with Nightcap that didn't need to be read into that information, 939 01:38:49.359 --> 01:38:56.039 I think Donald Kehoe was probably one of them. I think Gordon lore was. 940 01:38:56.199 --> 01:39:00.800 I think that their intentions were sincere and that they were trying to do 941 01:39:00.920 --> 01:39:11.119 good work. I just feel like that if the CIA launched the organization, 942 01:39:11.720 --> 01:39:15.279 then it wouldn't have just thrown it to the curb over the years, and 943 01:39:15.359 --> 01:39:21.000 it was not going to leave it up to chance for how it played out. 944 01:39:21.960 --> 01:39:30.479 And I think that's why CI Associates were brought in in the seventies to 945 01:39:30.720 --> 01:39:38.439 act as president and remain on the board and just kind of keep it officially 946 01:39:38.680 --> 01:39:45.319 opened if other opportunities came along that were needed. But at some point they 947 01:39:45.399 --> 01:39:53.000 just dissolved the organization and it might be interesting to see the timeline of what 948 01:39:53.239 --> 01:40:00.199 was going on and move on with the intelligence organizations. And as these guys 949 01:40:00.239 --> 01:40:05.880 aged out, and they just kind of shuddered nightcap if then we were kicking 950 01:40:05.960 --> 01:40:13.359 back into gear with the Avarey and Bill Moore and his crew and move on 951 01:40:13.600 --> 01:40:18.079 in groups like that. So someone just wrote in the chat that they can't 952 01:40:18.079 --> 01:40:24.239 get through in the phone line. So hopefully Bill is listening, so keep 953 01:40:24.279 --> 01:40:33.119 trying. So earlier you said that you did not know. Oh the line's 954 01:40:33.159 --> 01:40:36.239 not working. Okay, I just see the text. Yeah, all right, 955 01:40:38.000 --> 01:40:42.520 well maybe it is. I'm not sure what's going on anyway. Um, 956 01:40:43.960 --> 01:40:46.319 you said you didn't know about a specific case because you didn't throw down 957 01:40:46.359 --> 01:40:49.880 the gauntlet on it. Do you have any cases you've thrown the gauntlet down 958 01:40:49.880 --> 01:40:59.279 on um somewhat I do. Nightcap in general would be one in the grades 959 01:40:59.319 --> 01:41:05.279 had been aimed. I went pretty hard into the Emma Woods case. I 960 01:41:05.399 --> 01:41:13.159 know about that one, yeah, and I dissected it pretty heavily. I 961 01:41:13.199 --> 01:41:21.000 was pretty interested in Carol Raney and Bud Hopkins is association, and I went 962 01:41:21.079 --> 01:41:28.760 through it as well. The Leah Hailey case was fascinating to me, and 963 01:41:28.800 --> 01:41:36.079 again by this point in my research into in two thousands and I published that 964 01:41:36.119 --> 01:41:43.840 book in two thousand and six. I was interested in social circumstances, and 965 01:41:43.920 --> 01:41:54.880 I wasn't expecting to find a really peculiar, high strangeness type of thing as 966 01:41:54.960 --> 01:42:02.720 much as I was interested in what can we established happened, like like we're 967 01:42:02.800 --> 01:42:08.119 never gonna know, you know, what someone thinks they saw or that kind 968 01:42:08.159 --> 01:42:13.920 of thing, but we can establish that this researcher called this person on this 969 01:42:14.039 --> 01:42:17.800 date and they said this, and then they met with this person and this 970 01:42:17.920 --> 01:42:25.199 intelligence community member had this to say, and this intelligence community person told the 971 01:42:25.239 --> 01:42:31.199 newspaper this about Leah Haley and things like that. That interested me and I 972 01:42:31.600 --> 01:42:36.039 took a deep dive into that, and thus the name of the book. 973 01:42:38.199 --> 01:42:45.760 The Grays had been framed exploitation in the UFO community is that whatever the reasons 974 01:42:45.079 --> 01:42:56.760 that some of these people did find themselves interacting with researchers that we question their 975 01:42:57.880 --> 01:43:06.399 their motives or members of the intelligence community that their agenda is unclear, it's 976 01:43:06.520 --> 01:43:18.439 clear enough that the circumstances were exploited for reasons that we often can't really identify. 977 01:43:18.720 --> 01:43:27.560 Sometimes it seems apparent enough, other times it's less so, and we 978 01:43:27.760 --> 01:43:33.199 seem to almost be on this spend cycle pardon the pun in ufology, that 979 01:43:33.199 --> 01:43:44.680 this just keeps happening, that PhDs, intelligence community members, seemingly sincere people 980 01:43:45.279 --> 01:43:51.439 get caught in this wave of saying extraordinary things and the stuff never really pans 981 01:43:51.520 --> 01:43:58.119 out, and then at some point we're just looking back at it and some 982 01:43:58.239 --> 01:44:01.800 new group is doing it again, and just seems to happen over and over, 983 01:44:02.319 --> 01:44:10.720 and to me, that is probably most disappointing among the academics. Because 984 01:44:10.880 --> 01:44:15.880 the intelligence community people may be doing their jobs to some extent, or at 985 01:44:15.960 --> 01:44:24.000 least in some circumstances, whatever that propaganda or public relations campaign or that job 986 01:44:24.119 --> 01:44:31.520 may be. The people that see the UFO genre as I originally did, 987 01:44:31.960 --> 01:44:36.920 through a lens of wow. I wonder what these flying saucers are I wonder 988 01:44:36.960 --> 01:44:44.159 what happened to Betty and Barney Hill and things like that, are understandably just 989 01:44:44.319 --> 01:44:48.359 trying to figure out and learn more about what's going on. So I think 990 01:44:48.399 --> 01:44:57.760 I hold most responsible the academics that were educated to no better, and they 991 01:44:57.920 --> 01:45:04.000 know the professional research process, and they understand when they are and when they 992 01:45:04.039 --> 01:45:12.640 are not talking out their rear end for lack of a better term, and 993 01:45:12.800 --> 01:45:16.920 so that's the people that I think I hold most responsible for. It is 994 01:45:17.000 --> 01:45:25.960 the academics that don't put up or shut up, but we'll keep doing interviews 995 01:45:26.000 --> 01:45:31.800 and talking about all this exciting stuff that they're hoping to find. And Okay, 996 01:45:32.000 --> 01:45:39.199 so maybe they're maybe they're just speculating, and they're entitled to like anyone 997 01:45:39.239 --> 01:45:45.359 else. But a problem with that is, like any story like that, 998 01:45:45.760 --> 01:45:55.600 the correction doesn't get near the FaceTime that the initial fantastic claim does. And 999 01:45:55.640 --> 01:46:00.279 when they come along with a paper five years from now that says, um, 1000 01:46:00.359 --> 01:46:10.239 never mind, it wasn't so fantastic, there are still people clinging to 1001 01:46:10.600 --> 01:46:19.560 the beliefs that were floated and asserted in the first place. Okay, um, 1002 01:46:20.199 --> 01:46:25.720 yeah, So I apologize to the people that the phone line was not 1003 01:46:25.840 --> 01:46:30.560 working, thanks for trying to call in, And someone mentioned what you thought 1004 01:46:30.600 --> 01:46:34.960 about you know, the New Fork the call in center. Now, that's 1005 01:46:35.000 --> 01:46:42.039 not something that would ever be infiltrated something like that. I mean, that's 1006 01:46:42.079 --> 01:46:46.840 just a single guy, Peter Davenport, basically taking in reports. So nothing. 1007 01:46:47.720 --> 01:46:55.359 My interactions directly with mister Davenport have always been good. He's been helpful 1008 01:46:55.479 --> 01:47:02.000 when I've asked him about reports. I could say more so than the mutual 1009 01:47:02.159 --> 01:47:10.199 UFO network. He's at least willing to give a response for a blog post. 1010 01:47:10.279 --> 01:47:15.319 He's willing to direct me to reports that were filed. Um. I 1011 01:47:15.479 --> 01:47:29.800 haven't gotten that same kind of uhum collaboration or assistance from other groups like moufon. 1012 01:47:30.439 --> 01:47:36.319 So I don't have anything um negative to say about about New Fork or 1013 01:47:36.359 --> 01:47:44.439 mister Davenport. UM. I can certainly understand where in his day that that 1014 01:47:44.640 --> 01:47:49.439 was an idea of something to do, and um, like you were saying 1015 01:47:50.399 --> 01:47:56.279 about the persistence of researchers, he stuck with it and he kept with it 1016 01:47:56.359 --> 01:48:00.039 for many years. Right. There's another question that came come up to signore 1017 01:48:00.119 --> 01:48:03.960 the last part. It says, Jack, what what has been your biggest 1018 01:48:04.000 --> 01:48:11.159 takeaway for today from your research on the UFO intelh history, like Nightcap, 1019 01:48:12.640 --> 01:48:20.640 that there is an undeniable element of the intelligence community on an ongoing basis in 1020 01:48:20.800 --> 01:48:30.279 the UFO subculture. As I mentioned earlier, I think the reasons change from 1021 01:48:30.279 --> 01:48:36.760 one specific instance to the next, but I think it's largely misunderstood by the 1022 01:48:36.800 --> 01:48:45.800 public at large and the people like myself that come into this wanting to learn 1023 01:48:45.880 --> 01:48:53.760 more about UFOs. I don't think that we understand the extent that the intelligence 1024 01:48:53.840 --> 01:48:59.960 community is involved in it and manipulating it, and even people that will come 1025 01:49:00.279 --> 01:49:05.479 in and be at it for a few years often don't understand the extent of 1026 01:49:05.520 --> 01:49:11.439 what happened twenty years ago and thirty years ago and forty years ago, and 1027 01:49:11.880 --> 01:49:16.119 how repetitive it is. And there's see, there's an element, as I 1028 01:49:16.199 --> 01:49:25.680 was saying about academics and intelligence members, there's an element of deception there that 1029 01:49:28.720 --> 01:49:35.279 while they may not they may or may not allude to it's never happened before 1030 01:49:35.439 --> 01:49:44.760 and that stuff happening now is new. But by not educating their following about 1031 01:49:44.880 --> 01:49:50.760 what's taken place in the past, there's a certain element of deception and lying 1032 01:49:50.880 --> 01:50:00.960 through omission, and some outright misrepresent circumstances and then don't correct them. So 1033 01:50:00.159 --> 01:50:09.800 that would be my main takeaway is I wouldn't rule out that there's some unusual 1034 01:50:09.920 --> 01:50:16.239 phenomena that is yet to be better understood, but it is undeniable that the 1035 01:50:16.359 --> 01:50:24.720 intelligence community has had a front row seat in the way the topic is massaged 1036 01:50:24.800 --> 01:50:30.880 and interpreted by the public since the very outset of the modern UFO phenomenon in 1037 01:50:30.920 --> 01:50:36.119 the nineteen forties. It's all very interesting. We have two questions. We 1038 01:50:36.119 --> 01:50:40.399 only have three minutes left. We'll see if you can get these answered. 1039 01:50:40.439 --> 01:50:44.960 Have you ever heard of the term UCT un correlated targets? It's a NORAD's 1040 01:50:45.000 --> 01:50:48.600 acronym for the phenomenon. I never heard that before, not off the top 1041 01:50:48.640 --> 01:50:53.880 of my head. If I've come across it, it didn't resonate with me 1042 01:50:53.960 --> 01:50:59.359 for some reason. Yeah, we don't need other acronyms really, UAP and 1043 01:51:00.079 --> 01:51:04.960 the new thing that Congress I mean that the government has set up has so 1044 01:51:05.039 --> 01:51:09.079 many letters, and we have to make up a funny word for that one. 1045 01:51:09.119 --> 01:51:12.760 I don't know if you saw that. It's a big Yeah, it's 1046 01:51:12.800 --> 01:51:17.119 crazy insane. Yeah. Um, here's another question. Here are these intelligence 1047 01:51:17.199 --> 01:51:27.640 agencies responsible military or civilian or both into what degree. Um, they're they're 1048 01:51:27.840 --> 01:51:33.720 military, I mean they're not civilian, they're their government, right, Yeah, 1049 01:51:34.000 --> 01:51:40.079 And it would depend on specifically what we're talking about. Um Like in 1050 01:51:40.279 --> 01:51:45.880 nyecap uh, the CIA certainly had an interest in the launching of the organization, 1051 01:51:46.600 --> 01:51:59.439 and it had relationships with civilian groups um that that one was called Council 1052 01:51:59.520 --> 01:52:06.279 Service and was a public relations firm. Another was a government agency called the 1053 01:52:06.399 --> 01:52:15.359 Economic Cooperation Agency that acted as an asset for the CIA. And I think 1054 01:52:15.399 --> 01:52:21.640 that that's a really common theme. I know it is in the intelligence community 1055 01:52:23.439 --> 01:52:31.600 bag of tools to have government agencies acting on its behalf and assets and key 1056 01:52:31.680 --> 01:52:39.199 positions that it can count on for favors and information. All Right, well 1057 01:52:39.520 --> 01:52:42.760 we've made it. We did the whole show, and I do want to 1058 01:52:42.760 --> 01:52:48.520 apologize to the people that were trying to call in and considering next week's a 1059 01:52:48.640 --> 01:52:54.039 call in show. Hopefully that will be fixed. But thank you so much, 1060 01:52:54.119 --> 01:52:57.039 Chack. It's always been a pleasure. I like your level headedness and 1061 01:52:57.680 --> 01:53:01.119 your opinions are very good in myon How do you like that? Thank you 1062 01:53:01.279 --> 01:53:05.760 very much for having me. It's my pleasure and I appreciate it. Martin. 1063 01:53:06.239 --> 01:53:12.039 All right, you take care now and we'll talk soon. All right, 1064 01:53:12.079 --> 01:53:14.880 everyone, So that's it for the show tonight. Thank you so much. 1065 01:53:15.239 --> 01:53:19.199 Don't forget next week, get your well. We can talk about anything, 1066 01:53:19.279 --> 01:53:24.119 talk about a UFO sighting you want to. You have some questions, 1067 01:53:24.520 --> 01:53:29.079 we're taking calls and it's just a call in show only next week or for 1068 01:53:29.239 --> 01:53:32.439 a five hundred show. Thank you so much, and remember to keep your 1069 01:53:32.439 --> 01:54:00.359 eyes to the sky. H