WEBVTT 1 00:00:06.559 --> 00:00:10.839 Hey everybody, and welcome back to the Ruby Rochs podcast. Man, I'm 2 00:00:10.880 --> 00:00:14.599 missdoing this, it's been a little while. I'll give you all a rundown 3 00:00:14.640 --> 00:00:17.519 in a minute about what's going on. But yeah, today on our panel 4 00:00:17.559 --> 00:00:22.480 we have Dave Kamura, everyone and John Efferson and yeah, I'm Charles Maxwood. 5 00:00:22.760 --> 00:00:29.480 So essentially what happened was the COVID situation with the schools. My older 6 00:00:29.519 --> 00:00:34.600 two kids go to school that's like KA through nine, and then my younger 7 00:00:34.679 --> 00:00:39.240 kids go to the other school that's K through six. They've been going to 8 00:00:39.399 --> 00:00:44.799 since my oldest started school, and the school that they go to they decided 9 00:00:44.840 --> 00:00:50.000 to go half days. Every school did something different is probably not surprising to 10 00:00:50.039 --> 00:00:55.960 anybody who has kids, but anyway, so they scheduled the carpool right during 11 00:00:56.000 --> 00:01:00.920 this call, and then my wife wound up volunteering to help get lunches out 12 00:01:00.280 --> 00:01:03.879 at the other school at the same time. So I haven't been on because 13 00:01:03.879 --> 00:01:07.719 I have been in my car. So we finally got around to rescheduling this. 14 00:01:07.760 --> 00:01:11.319 I'm going to have to do the same thing with Javascrit Jabber incidentally, 15 00:01:11.599 --> 00:01:14.480 but they asked her to continue with lunches through the end of the year, 16 00:01:15.040 --> 00:01:18.519 and so yeah, we picked a new time for Ruby. Roagues is what's 17 00:01:18.560 --> 00:01:21.480 going on? So probably more than you wanted to know, but that's where 18 00:01:21.480 --> 00:01:25.959 I've been. I've been in the car anyway. I kind of set this 19 00:01:26.000 --> 00:01:30.319 one up this week just because I've been thinking about a lot of stuff and 20 00:01:30.560 --> 00:01:33.319 we didn't have a guest scheduled for this week, so I thought I would 21 00:01:33.400 --> 00:01:37.319 just jump in and talk a little bit about this stuff and just to give 22 00:01:37.359 --> 00:01:41.799 a little bit of background. So I started talking to folks and trying to 23 00:01:41.799 --> 00:01:45.400 figure out what they wanted from the different podcasts and what they were looking for 24 00:01:45.439 --> 00:01:49.879 and what they were struggling with. And one of the recurring things that keeps 25 00:01:49.920 --> 00:01:52.840 coming up is how to keep current, right, how to stay on top 26 00:01:52.920 --> 00:01:56.319 of all the things that are changing. And I think we're a little bit 27 00:01:56.400 --> 00:02:01.200 lucky with Ruby in that we're not frantically trying to keep up with what's going 28 00:02:01.239 --> 00:02:05.840 on in Rails or Ruby or anything else. Of course, we're going to 29 00:02:05.920 --> 00:02:09.520 have a big Ruby release here on Christmas, I think, is the rumor 30 00:02:09.560 --> 00:02:13.840 anyway. But yeah, so people keep asking me that, and then I 31 00:02:13.919 --> 00:02:16.759 ask them, why, right, you know, what's the outcome? You're 32 00:02:16.759 --> 00:02:21.960 looking for right as far as keeping current, and people also have like JavaScript 33 00:02:22.000 --> 00:02:23.800 stuff to keep up on and stuff like that, right, because most of 34 00:02:23.879 --> 00:02:28.800 us are doing webdev. And so it was, well, I want job 35 00:02:28.840 --> 00:02:32.159 security or I want to get a better job. Usually it came down to 36 00:02:32.240 --> 00:02:37.400 something like that, and so I started looking at, Okay, how does 37 00:02:37.439 --> 00:02:39.599 that work? You know, how does that come together for people? And 38 00:02:40.199 --> 00:02:43.599 a lot of the junior folks also kept asking me, you know, how 39 00:02:43.599 --> 00:02:46.479 do I become a senior developer? Right? How do I get to that 40 00:02:46.599 --> 00:02:50.080 level? And so all these things started playing together in my head and I 41 00:02:50.159 --> 00:02:54.039 realized that over the last several years, either as a contractor or as an 42 00:02:54.080 --> 00:02:58.599 employee. In fact, for the last probably ten plus years, the last 43 00:02:58.639 --> 00:03:00.800 couple of full time jobs I got before I went freelance, most of my 44 00:03:00.840 --> 00:03:05.919 freelance clients and then the job that I recently got to pay the bills, 45 00:03:06.280 --> 00:03:09.240 the interviews went something like, we like your content, do you want to 46 00:03:09.280 --> 00:03:14.360 work for us? Right, even if I applied for them, And so 47 00:03:14.520 --> 00:03:19.479 I realized that essentially, then what a lot of this boils down to is 48 00:03:20.199 --> 00:03:25.159 it's not it's not getting the senior developer title per se, but it's really 49 00:03:25.280 --> 00:03:30.240 you know, are you contributing to your team at kind of a most valuable 50 00:03:30.280 --> 00:03:35.479 player level? And so I bought most Valuable dot dev as a domain and 51 00:03:35.560 --> 00:03:38.039 I was looking at putting some stuff together and somebody asked me, well, 52 00:03:38.039 --> 00:03:40.879 what's the most valuable dev? And that's what I want to talk about. 53 00:03:42.039 --> 00:03:45.319 So long winded, sorry, but that's what I want to talk about, 54 00:03:45.400 --> 00:03:49.240 is what that looks like. And when somebody asked me, I essentially kind 55 00:03:49.240 --> 00:03:52.000 of rambled for like ten minutes that I'm not going to do for you guys, 56 00:03:52.240 --> 00:03:53.560 and then I said something about, well, they should be in the 57 00:03:53.560 --> 00:04:00.400 top five percent of developers available for whatever company they're working for. And that 58 00:04:00.479 --> 00:04:02.319 really helped me narrow it down because it's like, Okay, what are the 59 00:04:02.360 --> 00:04:06.879 top five percent doing that everybody else is not doing? And so I'm curious 60 00:04:06.960 --> 00:04:11.159 as we get started. I have some ideas here, but as we get 61 00:04:11.199 --> 00:04:15.039 started, So for those top five percent, right, the kind of the 62 00:04:15.080 --> 00:04:19.279 top end developers that you work with or maybe people tell you that you're a 63 00:04:19.319 --> 00:04:24.759 top five percenter and you know the things that they look to you for, 64 00:04:25.439 --> 00:04:28.759 what is it? What? What are the top five percent of developers the 65 00:04:28.800 --> 00:04:32.680 ones that are kind of the can't live without experts that are on your teams. 66 00:04:32.839 --> 00:04:35.399 What are they doing that everybody else is in't doing. I think the 67 00:04:35.680 --> 00:04:44.040 one one of the biggest traps that a mid level developer gets into is that 68 00:04:45.040 --> 00:04:49.920 it's the way they've always done it. They never explore outside of what are 69 00:04:50.160 --> 00:04:57.959 other options. It's just they've always used carrier wave and the sorcery gym, 70 00:04:58.199 --> 00:05:02.519 and so that's what this a new application needs to use as well, you 71 00:05:02.560 --> 00:05:08.199 know, just for the sake of the developer and familiarity, instead of what's 72 00:05:08.360 --> 00:05:12.720 best for the product, what's going to be most maintainable long term. I 73 00:05:12.720 --> 00:05:16.240 think a lot of traps that we get into as developers is we think about 74 00:05:16.839 --> 00:05:23.720 right now and we don't think about the maintainability far in. And so I 75 00:05:23.759 --> 00:05:30.240 think that's one big thing that kind of separates a developer from a higher level 76 00:05:30.759 --> 00:05:34.160 is that a higher level developer is thinking about what's going to be the best 77 00:05:34.199 --> 00:05:39.959 tool to solve our issue right now, and one that three years from now 78 00:05:40.000 --> 00:05:44.160 we're not going to look back on and say, why did we do it 79 00:05:44.160 --> 00:05:47.000 this way. It's going to be something where they don't even think about and 80 00:05:47.560 --> 00:05:53.480 those are the good decisions that we make in that application are the ones that 81 00:05:53.519 --> 00:05:56.839 we take for granted, the ones that we don't even think about. And 82 00:05:56.879 --> 00:06:02.439 so I think that a lot of issues where you have this professional junior developer 83 00:06:03.079 --> 00:06:09.160 or a lifelong junior developer and I say junior in the sense of they never 84 00:06:09.399 --> 00:06:14.439 really step up to the next level so they could be the lifelong normal titled 85 00:06:14.439 --> 00:06:19.160 developer or the lifelong senior developer, is that they never stick around long enough 86 00:06:19.199 --> 00:06:24.480 to actually see these changes that they and decisions that they are making today, 87 00:06:25.000 --> 00:06:28.839 how they play out and affect the future. Yeah, I like that. 88 00:06:29.319 --> 00:06:31.040 I like where you're going with that, John, Do you have anything to 89 00:06:31.079 --> 00:06:34.720 add? So, I think one thing that I would say, So the 90 00:06:34.720 --> 00:06:38.600 first thing that I wanted to say is I definitely want to concur with Dave. 91 00:06:39.199 --> 00:06:43.000 Though I've always described it a little bit differently to people. I always 92 00:06:43.199 --> 00:06:46.839 like to tell people that for me, you move sort of from being a 93 00:06:46.920 --> 00:06:50.079 junior to a mid level when you sort of like in your bag of tricks 94 00:06:50.199 --> 00:06:55.199 you have like a one tool for just about every job there is, right, 95 00:06:55.439 --> 00:06:59.439 and then sort of for me, the demarcation between like the senior and 96 00:06:59.480 --> 00:07:02.959 the mid level DOV is kind of more like as a senior, we understand 97 00:07:03.000 --> 00:07:05.360 that there's a lot of different tools that I could be using for a job, 98 00:07:05.399 --> 00:07:10.439 and we understand and we've mastered the trade offs between using those different tools. 99 00:07:10.920 --> 00:07:14.720 And so I mean this is this is total concurrence to what Dave is 100 00:07:14.720 --> 00:07:17.279 saying, right, Like, as a senior, you kind of move as 101 00:07:17.319 --> 00:07:20.480 you begin to understand why I would use one of these tools and why I 102 00:07:20.519 --> 00:07:25.079 wouldn't. So so for me, that's kind of like how I've always explained 103 00:07:25.120 --> 00:07:30.639 it, and that that helps me also to better recognize people that are for 104 00:07:30.720 --> 00:07:33.240 me, That helps me to recognize people that are moving from that mid level 105 00:07:33.240 --> 00:07:38.639 to that senior and the junior to the mid level thing because you can more 106 00:07:38.680 --> 00:07:42.120 proactively see that kind of effort going on by somebody. But yeah, there 107 00:07:42.160 --> 00:07:45.920 are But separately, there's like a ton of different hang ups that you can 108 00:07:45.959 --> 00:07:48.519 have, right, there are so many like flaws For me, I think 109 00:07:48.519 --> 00:07:53.000 it's more interesting to look at for me in particular, I think it's like 110 00:07:53.079 --> 00:07:56.439 more interesting to look at like as far as like what makes you a senior 111 00:07:56.480 --> 00:08:00.839 DEV sort of like those positive aspects. So there's a lot of things that 112 00:08:00.879 --> 00:08:05.480 we associate with being a senior DEV, like maybe you mentor people, or 113 00:08:05.519 --> 00:08:07.720 maybe you output a lot of code, But I don't think any one of 114 00:08:07.759 --> 00:08:13.120 those things makes you senior in and of themselves. I think it's you need 115 00:08:13.199 --> 00:08:16.720 some sort of mixture. I guess I never really thought about it from like 116 00:08:16.959 --> 00:08:22.399 most valuable dev standpoint, and and I over the course of this conversation, 117 00:08:22.560 --> 00:08:26.360 like that's been kind of polluting my thought space. So my apologies for all 118 00:08:26.360 --> 00:08:30.680 that, guys, because I think it's an interesting take because it kind of 119 00:08:30.680 --> 00:08:33.000 fits. It kind of fits like how I've associated with, which is like 120 00:08:33.480 --> 00:08:37.879 I want I always want to see before I like look at somebody as being 121 00:08:37.000 --> 00:08:43.200 a junior, somebody sort of creating like an identity for themselves, like they're 122 00:08:43.240 --> 00:08:46.200 gonna be good at these things, and and typically they also know what their 123 00:08:46.240 --> 00:08:50.080 weaknesses are and they're okay with that, and then they like find a way 124 00:08:50.120 --> 00:08:54.919 to solve for that. So, for example, I'm perfectly capable of doing 125 00:08:54.960 --> 00:08:58.759 front end work, but I don't really like front end work, so I 126 00:08:58.879 --> 00:09:01.679 just don't. So typically when I go to a place, like one of 127 00:09:01.720 --> 00:09:05.159 the first things that I always try to do is find a buddy that kind 128 00:09:05.159 --> 00:09:09.200 of likes that stuff, and then I'm like hey, I'll take some of 129 00:09:09.200 --> 00:09:11.200 this back and work from you. Right, And you could say, oh, 130 00:09:11.240 --> 00:09:13.799 that makes your back end dev. But I've literally never been worked anywhere 131 00:09:15.039 --> 00:09:18.840 where we've had that demarcation, you know. So I think one of the 132 00:09:18.879 --> 00:09:22.720 things that's really important is learning what your weaknesses are, learning how to cover 133 00:09:22.759 --> 00:09:26.080 them up, learning what your strengths are, being willing to put those forward, 134 00:09:26.639 --> 00:09:30.360 Like I feel like, creating a package around yourself, an identity for 135 00:09:30.440 --> 00:09:33.879 yourself, and learning all of those soft skills. Like I think the most 136 00:09:33.919 --> 00:09:39.200 important aspects of being the senior developer are all the soft skills. You're just 137 00:09:39.200 --> 00:09:43.120 a strong From my perspective, I feel like you're just really a strong mid 138 00:09:43.200 --> 00:09:46.320 level dev when when you're like, look, I put up tons of code, 139 00:09:46.360 --> 00:09:50.559 but that's like all I do. Great, that's fine, like that. 140 00:09:50.720 --> 00:09:54.399 We need people that contribute a lot of stuff. But I feel like 141 00:09:54.440 --> 00:09:56.639 it's all of the soft skills that like turn you that like kind of push 142 00:09:56.679 --> 00:10:01.039 you over the edge into senior most of the time. That's just where I 143 00:10:01.320 --> 00:10:05.240 come from, And I know that that's also not the definition. I mean, 144 00:10:05.519 --> 00:10:09.399 the definitions are different in different places. Yeah, so well, that's 145 00:10:09.679 --> 00:10:13.399 that's why I have a problem with senior DEV. And so when people start 146 00:10:13.399 --> 00:10:16.960 talking to me about wanting to be a senior DEV, I immediately pivot to 147 00:10:18.559 --> 00:10:22.799 you know, top five percent or most valuable DEV, because yeah, everybody 148 00:10:22.320 --> 00:10:28.039 kind of sets that a little differently. Some companies have like different development tiers. 149 00:10:28.159 --> 00:10:31.919 I know, the place I'm working, they have you know, levels, 150 00:10:31.960 --> 00:10:35.080 you know, so I'm a level whatever DEV and things like that, 151 00:10:35.200 --> 00:10:39.919 and you know, ultimately I'm trying to kind of consolidate the definition a little 152 00:10:39.960 --> 00:10:43.000 bit so that it's, hey, look, you know this is this is 153 00:10:43.039 --> 00:10:46.440 how you kind of stack out and where I see it. You I'm like, 154 00:10:46.519 --> 00:10:50.080 I should have gone first, because you guys said two thirds of what 155 00:10:50.120 --> 00:10:54.759 I was going to talk about with this, And the first one is you 156 00:10:54.799 --> 00:11:00.720 know your your technical capabilities, and I think Dave, both Dave and John 157 00:11:01.080 --> 00:11:05.480 both of you put out, you know, a really great way of explaining, 158 00:11:05.639 --> 00:11:09.840 Yeah, the kind of the technical level that we expect people to operate 159 00:11:09.919 --> 00:11:13.919 at for this right where they they understand the technology, they understand the technical 160 00:11:15.000 --> 00:11:18.600 choices, they can quickly evaluate different options if they're not familiar with them, 161 00:11:18.639 --> 00:11:22.639 they can make the calls. A lot of times those calls are instinctive you 162 00:11:22.679 --> 00:11:26.039 know, because they you know, they have spent the time and put in 163 00:11:26.080 --> 00:11:30.759 the work to understand the systems that they're working in, you know, be 164 00:11:30.840 --> 00:11:35.200 at rails or something else, and so I see that definitely. I also 165 00:11:35.240 --> 00:11:41.360 agree with John that for the most part, anymore, since we're working on 166 00:11:41.480 --> 00:11:46.559 teams, that level of expertise needs to be able to be communicated and it 167 00:11:46.639 --> 00:11:50.639 needs to be able to be shared throughout the team. And so if you 168 00:11:50.000 --> 00:11:54.559 aren't capable of working in a team anymore, the first part, it's I 169 00:11:54.600 --> 00:12:00.080 don't want to say that it's completely wasted, but it doesn't have the amplify 170 00:12:00.200 --> 00:12:03.679 effect that it does if you are a capable leader or a capable mentor and 171 00:12:03.720 --> 00:12:09.000 things like that. So I definitely agree with you guys on both of those 172 00:12:09.120 --> 00:12:13.720 counts, because yeah, I mean they're critical, right, yeah. And 173 00:12:13.000 --> 00:12:18.960 I think it's also important to note a couple of distinctions that a senior developer 174 00:12:18.399 --> 00:12:24.000 is not necessarily the subject matter expert, so they may not know the entire 175 00:12:24.120 --> 00:12:31.519 domain. They're just really good at understanding requirements, building out architecture, understanding 176 00:12:31.759 --> 00:12:37.960 how their decisions will affect things in the long run. So you could have 177 00:12:37.000 --> 00:12:43.600 a junior person come on board and provide so much insight, valuable insight into 178 00:12:45.080 --> 00:12:52.000 requirements and direction if they are the subject matter expert in that particular area. 179 00:12:52.159 --> 00:12:58.200 And I think that also a thing that will really distinguish a good developer versus 180 00:12:58.360 --> 00:13:03.759 a more is that it's a quote from Martin Faller, any fol can write 181 00:13:03.799 --> 00:13:09.320 code that a computer can understand. Good programmers write code that humans can understand. 182 00:13:09.799 --> 00:13:16.559 Right, So if the code that you're writing is just all tangled and 183 00:13:16.679 --> 00:13:20.759 just kind of pushed together to just get that code to work, but it's 184 00:13:20.759 --> 00:13:26.759 not maintainable, then it's not really good code because humans are going to have 185 00:13:26.799 --> 00:13:30.879 to come back and understand it to maintain them. Yep. Absolutely, I 186 00:13:30.919 --> 00:13:33.159 want to throw out the third thing. So there are three things for me 187 00:13:33.200 --> 00:13:37.159 that make kind of this most valuable dev or top five percent dev and that 188 00:13:37.159 --> 00:13:41.840 that's involvement in the community. And I know that not everybody wants to write 189 00:13:41.879 --> 00:13:45.559 open SOCE source code, or write blog posts or do a podcast or do 190 00:13:45.720 --> 00:13:50.080 videos or things like that, but I mean even just showing up to conferences 191 00:13:50.120 --> 00:13:54.519 and having conversations with people, and you know, just being out there is 192 00:13:54.200 --> 00:13:58.600 a huge step that a lot of people don't take, right be it at 193 00:13:58.679 --> 00:14:03.159 local conferences or you know more I guess not local conferences, so the big 194 00:14:03.200 --> 00:14:05.919 conferences, but you know, they're the ones that are getting out there and 195 00:14:05.960 --> 00:14:09.840 speaking. They're the ones that are getting out there and putting content out. 196 00:14:09.240 --> 00:14:13.759 And the reason that I have a focus on this at all is because people 197 00:14:13.799 --> 00:14:18.360 do talk about that level of job security, being able to level up, 198 00:14:18.519 --> 00:14:22.240 being able to go get the job that they want, and things like that, 199 00:14:22.519 --> 00:14:26.679 And that's ultimately the outcome I want is I want to lead people to 200 00:14:26.720 --> 00:14:31.000 the place where they are in a position that they want to be in working 201 00:14:31.039 --> 00:14:33.840 for a company or themselves. But you know, whoever they want to work 202 00:14:33.840 --> 00:14:39.159 for, they're working for and they are contributing at a level they want to 203 00:14:39.159 --> 00:14:43.799 contribute to, and then that is feeding back into the rest of their life 204 00:14:43.879 --> 00:14:48.440 so that they have the freedom to go do whatever whatever else it is that 205 00:14:48.440 --> 00:14:52.000 they want to do. Right, So if it's you know, raising kids 206 00:14:52.240 --> 00:14:56.080 and you know, being there for all of their kids' stuff, or if 207 00:14:56.080 --> 00:14:58.960 they want to go surf on the weekends, or they want to travel the 208 00:14:58.000 --> 00:15:01.320 world or whatever or else, right, I want people to be able to 209 00:15:01.440 --> 00:15:07.200 kind of find their dream job, but their dream jobs that supports and sustains 210 00:15:07.480 --> 00:15:11.639 the lifestyle they want and so, and I find that it makes it a 211 00:15:11.679 --> 00:15:16.000 whole lot easier to be able to do that if you've got some form of 212 00:15:16.039 --> 00:15:20.720 content out there, and so that that's kind of the final piece that I'm 213 00:15:20.759 --> 00:15:24.120 putting to this. Yeah, I've seen a lot of developers who are by 214 00:15:24.159 --> 00:15:31.559 no means senior even still just push out so much content. They're putting out 215 00:15:31.600 --> 00:15:39.480 blog articles, they are getting on podcasts or other places, just really getting 216 00:15:39.519 --> 00:15:46.679 their name out there. And it's surprising how much just that social engineering aspect 217 00:15:46.840 --> 00:15:52.080 of it can really raise the bar where people view you at just that name 218 00:15:52.159 --> 00:15:56.399 recognition. So these developers, they're putting out some good stuff, you know, 219 00:15:56.600 --> 00:16:02.480 because I think one of the best ways to grow as a developer is 220 00:16:02.519 --> 00:16:07.240 to get feedback. I know, when I was doing development completely solo, 221 00:16:07.320 --> 00:16:11.320 where no one was viewing my work, I made a lot of compromises, 222 00:16:11.000 --> 00:16:15.279 and because no one was looking at my code, then there was no one 223 00:16:15.320 --> 00:16:19.320 to criticize it or to help guide me. And I think that was one 224 00:16:19.320 --> 00:16:25.080 of the biggest mistakes that I made early on, was to not seek counsel, 225 00:16:25.519 --> 00:16:30.840 to not have a mentor to not have others even at the same level, 226 00:16:30.320 --> 00:16:36.399 because iron will sharpen iron, and as you are working with someone else, 227 00:16:36.720 --> 00:16:38.679 they're going to have a different set of eyes, a different insight, 228 00:16:40.240 --> 00:16:44.720 and that's going to be really important to your own development growth. So I 229 00:16:44.799 --> 00:16:49.559 actually want to take this on slight tangement too, because I think so we're 230 00:16:49.600 --> 00:16:53.679 talking about content here being like one way right that you sort of connect with 231 00:16:53.720 --> 00:16:56.720 people, get your name out there, things like this. I'm probably the 232 00:16:56.799 --> 00:17:00.600 least prolific content wise of the three of us, but there are other ways 233 00:17:00.639 --> 00:17:04.480 to do this too. So you noted, hey, iron sharpens iron, 234 00:17:04.559 --> 00:17:10.039 right. So one of the things that I used to do a while back 235 00:17:10.079 --> 00:17:12.720 before Charlotte Doves existed, even is I used to go to like all these 236 00:17:12.759 --> 00:17:21.079 meetups and people in my town knew who I was and gave me respect despite 237 00:17:21.119 --> 00:17:23.440 the fact that at the time I had basically no content to my name. 238 00:17:25.000 --> 00:17:27.480 I wasn't you know, there wasn't the Charlotte Doves organization. I had literally 239 00:17:27.519 --> 00:17:30.559 nothing behind my name. But I was going to these meetups all the time, 240 00:17:30.640 --> 00:17:34.799 and I talked to people and people heard me say things, and over 241 00:17:34.839 --> 00:17:40.319 time that built up respect too. So I literally just showed up to stuff 242 00:17:40.799 --> 00:17:45.839 right, and that also garnered respect as well. Obviously as time we're on 243 00:17:45.920 --> 00:17:48.079 you know, started Charlotte Doves, you know, which is an organization. 244 00:17:48.160 --> 00:17:52.200 That's another tech I think that you can take too, right, is create 245 00:17:52.240 --> 00:17:56.119 a space for people. But but yeah, I mean literally, it's a 246 00:17:56.319 --> 00:17:59.839 It can just be as simple as just chatting with people. And I was 247 00:17:59.880 --> 00:18:04.119 also going to mention one of the things like I have found as I've mentored 248 00:18:04.200 --> 00:18:11.079 other people is that I develop respect for my mentees over time. So I 249 00:18:11.119 --> 00:18:15.200 wonder how much of that happens as well, that finding a mentor can create 250 00:18:15.240 --> 00:18:18.440 some of that. I was trying to think as we were talking along about 251 00:18:18.440 --> 00:18:22.599 other ways that you could do similar types of things without necessarily because not everybody's 252 00:18:22.599 --> 00:18:25.680 a content creator. Those are just ones that popped up to the top of 253 00:18:25.680 --> 00:18:29.200 my head. Yeah, definitely, I mean, and I'm glad you brought 254 00:18:29.240 --> 00:18:33.240 up the meetups as an example, because we need people at the local level 255 00:18:33.400 --> 00:18:37.039 just as much as we need people at kind of the global level, and 256 00:18:37.400 --> 00:18:41.279 a lot of times those are going to be the people that are Yeah, 257 00:18:41.359 --> 00:18:45.640 they're mentoring people there, they're getting to know people, They're solving problems for 258 00:18:45.720 --> 00:18:51.640 people because a lot of the people at kind of the higher level, they 259 00:18:51.680 --> 00:18:53.960 feel like they're out of reach a lot of times. And so I'm much 260 00:18:55.000 --> 00:18:59.319 more comfortable after the meetup walking up to somebody and saying, Hey, I'm 261 00:18:59.319 --> 00:19:02.799 struggling with this, how do I learn it? Or Hey, that was 262 00:19:02.799 --> 00:19:04.440 a great talk. I want to use this at work. How do I 263 00:19:04.519 --> 00:19:07.920 do it? As opposed to some of the other things in their workshops. 264 00:19:08.559 --> 00:19:11.799 Like I said, local conferences, there are code camps that all tend to 265 00:19:11.799 --> 00:19:18.319 happen locally. And then you brought up organizations and a lot of these organizations 266 00:19:18.319 --> 00:19:22.559 will have a Slack channel or a forum or an email list or something like 267 00:19:22.599 --> 00:19:26.519 that, or you can participate there. And again, you know, you 268 00:19:26.839 --> 00:19:33.880 can become well known and prolific locally by participating in some of those. And 269 00:19:33.960 --> 00:19:37.440 so as you help more people out, as you make more of a contribution 270 00:19:37.599 --> 00:19:41.599 or just ask good questions, a lot of times that will lead you down 271 00:19:41.640 --> 00:19:45.759 the path of getting a little further along within the community than you would have 272 00:19:45.799 --> 00:19:51.920 otherwise. And I do want to circle back to the topic that we were 273 00:19:51.960 --> 00:19:57.440 discussing before with the junior kind of vers senior is that one stranging that found 274 00:19:57.599 --> 00:20:03.559 is that not always will a senior developer or the best developer on the team 275 00:20:03.799 --> 00:20:11.200 be the person leading the team, and that can be a real struggle because 276 00:20:11.200 --> 00:20:17.720 there's going to be tension if you don't have the best person for the job 277 00:20:17.880 --> 00:20:22.000 leading the team. And sometimes that's actually a good thing. If the better 278 00:20:22.079 --> 00:20:26.799 developer is not a good leader, then they're going to just kind of take 279 00:20:26.799 --> 00:20:33.000 that software into the garbage. But when you do have someone who just happens 280 00:20:33.039 --> 00:20:37.799 to be the team lead, but then you hire a teams that team of 281 00:20:37.839 --> 00:20:41.480 people where there are better people suited for the job, then you're going to 282 00:20:41.519 --> 00:20:49.039 have some issues in the dynamics of that team, and more specifically between the 283 00:20:49.200 --> 00:20:53.519 senior developer and that team lead. You're going to have a lot of issues 284 00:20:53.680 --> 00:21:00.440 in those dynamics. And I hate playing any kind of corporate politics. I 285 00:21:00.440 --> 00:21:04.720 think it's just a waste of time. I think it's horrible and it just 286 00:21:04.880 --> 00:21:10.160 should never happen. But unfortunately that's kind of what you have to do in 287 00:21:10.240 --> 00:21:15.000 a corporate world. But I think trying to keep your focus on the code, 288 00:21:15.440 --> 00:21:19.920 what's best for the business, what's best for the team, is always 289 00:21:19.960 --> 00:21:26.960 going to not only protect you, but it's also going to be better in 290 00:21:27.000 --> 00:21:34.000 the long run, because one, you were backing your thoughts with intelligent and 291 00:21:36.079 --> 00:21:41.160 factual things that can be shown as this is the way we should be doing 292 00:21:41.200 --> 00:21:47.359 it, versus what this team lead who's not as good of a developer is 293 00:21:47.400 --> 00:21:49.519 saying that we need to bring this in because we did this at my last 294 00:21:49.599 --> 00:21:53.079 job, and my last job, you know turned out fine. Well, 295 00:21:53.240 --> 00:21:56.960 you're kind of not at your last job anymore, are you like working on 296 00:21:56.960 --> 00:22:00.839 the same app? Yeah, yeah, so yeah, that's just kind of 297 00:22:02.240 --> 00:22:04.920 one thought that I have around there. And it's a difficult situation. And 298 00:22:06.000 --> 00:22:10.400 I think as we start working with other people, we are going to experience 299 00:22:10.839 --> 00:22:18.799 these difficult situations either sooner or later. And I think one suggestion or advice 300 00:22:18.960 --> 00:22:26.200 is don't be so easily offended by a difference of opinion. You know, 301 00:22:26.319 --> 00:22:30.519 having a difference of opinion, you can use it even if you are completely 302 00:22:30.640 --> 00:22:33.519 in the right, you can use it to grow because it's a there could 303 00:22:33.559 --> 00:22:40.279 be a chance that you're hearing a different perspective, and there's always some good 304 00:22:40.279 --> 00:22:44.720 things to be taken out of a different perspective. Yeah. Absolutely, But 305 00:22:44.880 --> 00:22:48.599 ja I was gonna say, I think it's it's also probably an opportunity for 306 00:22:48.720 --> 00:22:53.440 you to level op those communication skills as you're trying to navigate right, especially 307 00:22:53.519 --> 00:22:59.720 when when egos are involved. It's just it's difficult and it really sucks to 308 00:22:59.759 --> 00:23:03.000 where through. But yeah, communication skills matter. You can say literally the 309 00:23:03.039 --> 00:23:07.920 same thing. You can have two people saying basically the exact same thing, 310 00:23:07.319 --> 00:23:10.640 and how they say it, you know, will make a difference. One 311 00:23:10.680 --> 00:23:15.160 person will piss off somebody and the other person will will not. You know, 312 00:23:15.279 --> 00:23:18.160 so I know that I have had plenty of cases where I'm like, 313 00:23:18.319 --> 00:23:25.000 trying to deal with somebody that's stopborn, maybe it would be a good way 314 00:23:25.039 --> 00:23:26.960 to put it right, or you know, just not really like you said, 315 00:23:27.400 --> 00:23:32.480 not everybody on your team one hundred percent of the time is always thinking 316 00:23:32.480 --> 00:23:34.480 about the business. Sometimes they're like, well this will make me look good 317 00:23:34.599 --> 00:23:37.559 or whatever it is, or they just like a thing, they love a 318 00:23:37.640 --> 00:23:41.319 technology or whatever. Lots of personal reasons why somebody might not be thinking to 319 00:23:41.359 --> 00:23:45.880 go to the business. And if you're able to make the argument, you 320 00:23:45.920 --> 00:23:49.400 know, that'll often help you to win the argument, which might be important. 321 00:23:49.599 --> 00:23:52.599 But if you also think about you know, hey, do I care 322 00:23:52.599 --> 00:23:56.279 about this person, the relationship with this person you know, for example, 323 00:23:56.759 --> 00:24:00.880 maybe it can be a selfish thing of do I really want this person to 324 00:24:00.880 --> 00:24:03.400 be pissed off at me next week? Right? You know, maybe that 325 00:24:03.759 --> 00:24:07.799 will evolve your conversation such that you might decide not to make them angry, 326 00:24:08.200 --> 00:24:11.599 or you might you know, talk about the stuff in a better way. 327 00:24:11.640 --> 00:24:15.640 And that's opportunity for you to work on those soft skills that and I do 328 00:24:15.720 --> 00:24:21.960 believe that people that are kind of better at navigating those scenarios over time, 329 00:24:22.200 --> 00:24:27.119 like they tend to garner respect as a senior developer. I think that is 330 00:24:27.200 --> 00:24:32.640 one of the markers of that. Yeah. Well, and what we're speaking 331 00:24:32.680 --> 00:24:37.200 to, and I think you've both alluded to this, is that leaderships and 332 00:24:37.400 --> 00:24:41.000 leadership skills and technical skills are not necessarily the same skill set, right, 333 00:24:41.680 --> 00:24:45.880 and so your ability to manage up, manage laterally, and manage downward. 334 00:24:47.319 --> 00:24:48.680 There's a terrific book, by the way, called The three hundred and sixty 335 00:24:48.759 --> 00:24:55.000 Degree Leader that talks about all of this stuff and walks you through a lot 336 00:24:55.000 --> 00:24:56.720 of this stuff. I'm trying to remember who the author is, and I'll 337 00:24:56.720 --> 00:25:00.880 probably just look it up and tell you in a minute, But I mean, 338 00:25:00.079 --> 00:25:03.880 that's the deal. Right. And so you may be a great team 339 00:25:03.960 --> 00:25:11.000 lead and may not be the most technically qualified person on your team, right, 340 00:25:11.359 --> 00:25:15.400 But then you've got to be willing to accept the responsibilities that come with 341 00:25:15.400 --> 00:25:21.119 your leadership role and at the same time defer in the areas that you don't 342 00:25:21.119 --> 00:25:26.839 have the expertise in or don't have as much expertise in, and not necessarily 343 00:25:26.880 --> 00:25:30.359 defer in the sense of just let them have their way, but again, 344 00:25:30.880 --> 00:25:33.720 lead the conversation and keep things focused on how do we succeed to what we're 345 00:25:33.720 --> 00:25:38.960 doing. And if you can do that, then that's a big part of 346 00:25:41.440 --> 00:25:44.880 being this kind of a developer. Yeah, in a team game, right, 347 00:25:45.559 --> 00:25:49.519 yep, it doesn't really matter if you are literally the best, you 348 00:25:49.559 --> 00:25:52.920 know, the best developer that has ever existed, if you can't get the 349 00:25:52.920 --> 00:25:56.160 project across the finish line. And when you're playing a team game, it's 350 00:25:56.160 --> 00:26:00.039 typically because it's something that's much bigger than a single person can get done themselves. 351 00:26:00.680 --> 00:26:07.039 So if you're really amazing coder, but but you like kind of you 352 00:26:07.079 --> 00:26:11.599 know, stomp on everybody else around you, right, Like, that's going 353 00:26:11.640 --> 00:26:12.880 to get in the way of your team. So one of the things that 354 00:26:14.000 --> 00:26:17.960 like it's really important in a team game is are you sort of enabling the 355 00:26:18.000 --> 00:26:22.599 people around you as well as yourself? Yeah, I just to make a 356 00:26:22.680 --> 00:26:25.519 sports analogy. There are two things that I want to point out. One 357 00:26:25.640 --> 00:26:30.160 is it that in most sports they count assists as much as they count scores. 358 00:26:30.519 --> 00:26:34.160 Right, So I'm a big soccer fan. Whoever passed the ball into 359 00:26:34.200 --> 00:26:38.400 the middle of the mess, they get a stat, and then the person 360 00:26:38.400 --> 00:26:41.039 who puts it in the back of the net also gets a stat. The 361 00:26:41.079 --> 00:26:45.279 other thing is is that if you're playing the role of the coach, you're 362 00:26:45.319 --> 00:26:49.000 not going to score any goals, right, but your job is to make 363 00:26:49.000 --> 00:26:53.160 sure that the team is winning the game sports, all right, Yeah, 364 00:26:53.480 --> 00:26:57.000 I'm gonna push us a little bit to a little bit different place. And 365 00:26:57.279 --> 00:27:03.000 this is kind of the throat of the focus that I'm going to be pushing 366 00:27:03.039 --> 00:27:07.960 all of the shows at devchat dot tv toward as well as I'm working on 367 00:27:07.400 --> 00:27:11.799 a course. And I have kind of a soft announcement at the end of 368 00:27:11.839 --> 00:27:17.480 this episode, but I want to talk about how we get there, right, 369 00:27:17.880 --> 00:27:19.839 because it's one thing to kind of you know, we've kind of set 370 00:27:19.839 --> 00:27:23.279 this definition out there, right, top five percent developer needs to be able 371 00:27:23.279 --> 00:27:26.440 to do these things or have these skills or you know, and I don't 372 00:27:26.480 --> 00:27:29.920 even know that they necessarily have to have all of them, but they're going 373 00:27:30.000 --> 00:27:33.880 to exhibit a lot of them. Right, But how do you get there? 374 00:27:33.039 --> 00:27:37.279 Right? So, let's say that I am this mid level person or 375 00:27:37.359 --> 00:27:40.839 I don't even know how to evaluate where I'm at, or maybe I'm a 376 00:27:40.920 --> 00:27:45.240 junior person and I'm stuck at this job and I don't know where the opportunities 377 00:27:45.279 --> 00:27:48.160 are to even grow, learn or move up. I mean, how do 378 00:27:48.279 --> 00:27:52.039 I get from there? From here to there? Right? What kinds of 379 00:27:52.039 --> 00:27:56.799 things should I be doing to move myself along this path so that I can 380 00:27:56.839 --> 00:28:00.680 be that top five percent developer. I feel good about the contrby I'm making 381 00:28:00.680 --> 00:28:03.039 to the team. I feel good about the contributions I make to the community. 382 00:28:03.640 --> 00:28:08.480 And I have this job that is working for me as much as I'm 383 00:28:08.480 --> 00:28:14.559 working for it. I mean, watch any kind of movie where the main 384 00:28:14.720 --> 00:28:21.680 actor is, you know, just been discovered and then by the end of 385 00:28:21.720 --> 00:28:25.480 the movie they are the cong Fu master. So you know, I think 386 00:28:25.559 --> 00:28:29.880 Karate Kid. So yeah, Daniel Huusso you know, if you like the 387 00:28:29.880 --> 00:28:33.200 old ones where he's just this little kid getting beaten up all the time, 388 00:28:34.000 --> 00:28:37.680 and at the end of the movie, you know he's taking down the kids 389 00:28:37.680 --> 00:28:42.480 that were beating him up. It didn't just get from start to finish. 390 00:28:42.599 --> 00:28:48.319 There's a journey, so don't miss out on the journey. And I think 391 00:28:48.480 --> 00:28:52.880 that's one of the biggest things. It's important to keep focus on the end 392 00:28:52.920 --> 00:28:57.440 result, what the outcome is supposed to be, but don't miss each step 393 00:28:57.480 --> 00:29:02.279 in between, because you lose a lot of valuable lessons if you try to 394 00:29:02.359 --> 00:29:07.680 jump ahead. And one of the very first things that happened on Daniel Hurrusso's 395 00:29:07.880 --> 00:29:14.279 path to growth is a mentor. He had a trainer, someone who wanted 396 00:29:14.319 --> 00:29:18.960 to help him, and someone who wanted to see this person grow. So 397 00:29:19.079 --> 00:29:25.400 I think having some kind of mentor that you can ask questions and get feedback, 398 00:29:25.920 --> 00:29:30.720 and even when the feedback might hurt your feelings, to know that this 399 00:29:30.799 --> 00:29:38.039 person is trying to help you grow into a next level developer or Ninja Ninja 400 00:29:38.160 --> 00:29:42.880 montage. Well, that's funny that you say that, though, because I 401 00:29:42.920 --> 00:29:48.680 think a lot of times we kind of envision that montage right instead of all 402 00:29:48.720 --> 00:29:53.599 of the work right, So we see Danielson waxing the car but we're not 403 00:29:53.720 --> 00:29:59.559 sitting there for hours watching him wax every car, right, We're not there 404 00:30:00.039 --> 00:30:04.079 every time when he's you know, going to the beach with mister Miyagi and 405 00:30:06.000 --> 00:30:08.359 you know, doing whatever work. We just kind of see outtakes, and 406 00:30:08.400 --> 00:30:11.759 I think a lot of times we get this idea in our heads that we're 407 00:30:11.839 --> 00:30:18.240 going to have a montage growth trajectory instead of realizing that he was out there 408 00:30:18.240 --> 00:30:22.920 on the beach every day he was, you know, he spent hours and 409 00:30:22.960 --> 00:30:26.480 hours and hours painting the fence. Anyway, John, what were you going 410 00:30:26.519 --> 00:30:30.319 to say? No? I mean at first I wanted to make my joke, 411 00:30:30.400 --> 00:30:33.000 but sorry, I killed the joke. No, No, I said 412 00:30:33.039 --> 00:30:37.119 the montage thing that was? That was it? Oh? Now, I 413 00:30:37.200 --> 00:30:41.039 get request from people all the time randomly, right, and they kind of 414 00:30:41.119 --> 00:30:44.079 go a little bit like this. They're like, well, hey, I 415 00:30:44.160 --> 00:30:47.559 want to how do you do this thing right? Or how does this thing 416 00:30:47.640 --> 00:30:51.079 work? And I say, well, here's a basic understanding, you know, 417 00:30:51.200 --> 00:30:55.440 and that'll get you pretty far. And so maybe there they immediately sense 418 00:30:55.519 --> 00:30:56.319 there's more to it, and they were like, well, is there a 419 00:30:56.400 --> 00:31:00.119 five minute video that I can watch that explains everything so that I can just 420 00:31:00.440 --> 00:31:04.519 consume that and understand it right, and and then I'm like, no, 421 00:31:06.319 --> 00:31:11.640 it's just it doesn't like you. You often get like an incomplete understanding, 422 00:31:11.720 --> 00:31:14.519 and that is the thing that you work with for a while, right, 423 00:31:14.640 --> 00:31:18.640 and then you sort of grow this better understanding over time. I think there's 424 00:31:18.279 --> 00:31:23.880 I don't I don't know if it's caused by something, but I definitely feel 425 00:31:23.920 --> 00:31:27.039 like a lot of people just want to come in, watch a quick video, 426 00:31:27.160 --> 00:31:30.200 reach a blog article, whatever it is, and then they're immediately a 427 00:31:30.400 --> 00:31:34.440 master of the thing, and you can get You can get pretty far with 428 00:31:34.559 --> 00:31:37.799 a lot of these blog articles, right, You can get a lot of 429 00:31:37.920 --> 00:31:41.880 knowledge things like that. But I think that people are definitely asking to get 430 00:31:41.039 --> 00:31:45.480 way more out of these things. Then then you can get that way. 431 00:31:45.599 --> 00:31:48.960 You just have to practice, Like I think that's really Dave's point here, 432 00:31:48.519 --> 00:31:53.359 like literally a practice. Yeah. And one thing you know to kind of 433 00:31:53.440 --> 00:31:59.200 go alongside that is, you know, if you do have someone that's helping 434 00:31:59.240 --> 00:32:01.759 you out a mental or and stuff, a mentor is not there for you 435 00:32:02.039 --> 00:32:07.319 to just go and ask questions all the time. One of the best ways, 436 00:32:07.440 --> 00:32:12.680 and this is just for me personally, others are like this, but 437 00:32:12.880 --> 00:32:17.839 not everyone is I do really well just banging my head against the keyboard, 438 00:32:19.519 --> 00:32:23.240 you know, to just struggle and struggle to try to figure something out and 439 00:32:24.039 --> 00:32:29.599 always get it figured out. So it's not like that it is an impossible 440 00:32:29.759 --> 00:32:37.359 situation to resolve. But having that time of going through the ninety nine ways 441 00:32:37.480 --> 00:32:42.559 to find out how not to screw in a light bulb to then finally figure 442 00:32:42.559 --> 00:32:45.920 out the one right way to do it, you know, it's a learning 443 00:32:46.039 --> 00:32:51.680 experience that now you know ninety nine ways not to do something. And I 444 00:32:51.799 --> 00:32:58.160 think that if you just go to a person who is giving you the answer, 445 00:32:58.480 --> 00:33:00.400 like, oh, you just need to like this, they don't go 446 00:33:00.759 --> 00:33:06.359 too far into here's the ninety nine ways that you don't want to do it. 447 00:33:07.160 --> 00:33:09.160 Number one, you probably tune out because you don't want to hear the 448 00:33:09.240 --> 00:33:14.799 ninety nine ways. You just want to know this one answer. So having 449 00:33:14.880 --> 00:33:20.200 that time on yourself to struggle and to really you know, get your rubber 450 00:33:20.319 --> 00:33:23.039 duck out and explain it to the duck. You know, here's what I'm 451 00:33:23.079 --> 00:33:27.799 doing. Here's it's not working. You're not going to just sit there and 452 00:33:27.880 --> 00:33:30.720 tell the duck my code's not working. It's not working, like well, 453 00:33:31.279 --> 00:33:34.720 you know, you have to explain to the duck, like what's going on, 454 00:33:35.519 --> 00:33:37.960 Like what approach if you tried, what are what are the things that 455 00:33:38.000 --> 00:33:42.160 you're trying to do, what are you thinking about, what's going on in 456 00:33:42.240 --> 00:33:45.880 your head? You know, explain it, read it out. And I 457 00:33:46.000 --> 00:33:51.359 think that's the issue I see with a lot of more junior developers right now 458 00:33:52.000 --> 00:33:54.640 is that they want that montage, as you were saying, Chuck and John, 459 00:33:55.559 --> 00:34:01.279 that they don't want to go through all of the effort that it takes 460 00:34:01.440 --> 00:34:07.440 to really learn the stuff. They just want the answer and then they will 461 00:34:07.519 --> 00:34:12.320 move on. The problem with only getting the answer for that particular issue is 462 00:34:12.360 --> 00:34:15.960 that you're not getting any of the theory. You're not getting any of the 463 00:34:15.559 --> 00:34:21.599 in depth background knowledge around it in order to then be able to adapt it 464 00:34:22.280 --> 00:34:25.800 to the next problem. That's very similar, but it's just tweaked a bit 465 00:34:25.960 --> 00:34:30.320 differently, because then you're just gonna be going back to that mentor or to 466 00:34:30.440 --> 00:34:36.840 that person you're asking questions to and asking them the question again, and to 467 00:34:37.000 --> 00:34:38.880 that person, they're gonna hear the exact same question. It's like, well 468 00:34:39.039 --> 00:34:43.920 we just talked about this last week. You know, you're asking me the 469 00:34:44.000 --> 00:34:47.079 same thing it's just a little bit different. You know, just do make 470 00:34:47.159 --> 00:34:52.039 the necessary adjustments, and you're gonna start wearing out that mentor to where they 471 00:34:52.079 --> 00:34:55.760 don't want to help you anymore because you're not helping yourself. So that's it. 472 00:34:57.320 --> 00:35:00.719 That's what I had to say. Yeah, well, and it's interesting 473 00:35:00.760 --> 00:35:06.840 too because I'm going through this right now with project at work, and essentially 474 00:35:07.840 --> 00:35:13.760 what we're doing is the rest of the company has this set of React components 475 00:35:14.480 --> 00:35:19.559 that are styled in a particular way that you know, they've built these other 476 00:35:19.840 --> 00:35:23.599 websites with, and they want us to start using them and incorporate them into 477 00:35:23.639 --> 00:35:29.039 our rails app. Well, they're not really in a convenient format for us 478 00:35:29.119 --> 00:35:34.920 to use because they're not in an NPM package. They're yeah, they're not 479 00:35:35.039 --> 00:35:38.840 really in a GEM or anything else. And so we've been building this GEM 480 00:35:39.559 --> 00:35:45.360 to make it easier for people to use these these React components and then to 481 00:35:45.480 --> 00:35:47.239 actually, you know, we created a form builder so that you can just 482 00:35:47.400 --> 00:35:52.039 kind of rails weigh it and not really care that you're React under the hood. 483 00:35:52.960 --> 00:35:57.360 But I mean, we've had this big long learning curve with Webpacker, 484 00:35:57.480 --> 00:35:59.880 right and it's like, oh, that didn't work. We're getting this air 485 00:36:00.159 --> 00:36:02.440 and then we kind of move on to Okay, now we're getting this other 486 00:36:02.599 --> 00:36:06.199 error. And so by the time we're done, we're sitting here going, 487 00:36:06.280 --> 00:36:09.679 Okay, we have a much better understanding of how the react rails gem works. 488 00:36:09.719 --> 00:36:13.880 We have a much better idea of how webpacker works, and we have 489 00:36:13.960 --> 00:36:22.000 a much better idea of how to include these pieces of things into our rails 490 00:36:22.039 --> 00:36:24.360 engine and how the rails engines work. And so yeah, if somebody had 491 00:36:24.400 --> 00:36:27.760 just given us the answer, I mean, we could have copied it all, 492 00:36:28.880 --> 00:36:32.760 but yeah, we wouldn't have picked up this knowledge that surrounds all this 493 00:36:32.880 --> 00:36:37.199 stuff so that we can make the right call later. Yeah, and that 494 00:36:37.320 --> 00:36:40.639 all becomes part of your big blob of the knowledge that you have. You 495 00:36:40.719 --> 00:36:45.320 know, that's different from person to person, and it's super cool. I 496 00:36:45.360 --> 00:36:51.079 don't know. I I definitely I have experienced this kind of frustration before as 497 00:36:51.159 --> 00:36:57.639 well with Minte's, and I've also I don't know, but I actually feel 498 00:36:57.920 --> 00:37:00.679 I actually have like sort of a different problem with Mente's in general. So 499 00:37:01.280 --> 00:37:06.519 and maybe it's just the kind of mentees that I've run across, but I've 500 00:37:06.559 --> 00:37:12.360 also experienced the kind of situation where the mente sort of they they're trying so 501 00:37:12.599 --> 00:37:16.000 hard to not ask you questions, right that they literally never come back for 502 00:37:16.119 --> 00:37:22.880 help, and so they're off on these wild goose change chases for long periods 503 00:37:22.920 --> 00:37:28.360 of time, and you sort of so the rhythm becomes different. Instead of 504 00:37:28.920 --> 00:37:34.840 instead of them constantly asking me questions, I find myself with this type of 505 00:37:34.960 --> 00:37:38.400 mentee chasing after them and being like, hey, what's up, and they're 506 00:37:38.519 --> 00:37:42.199 like, oh, hey, I had this problem, so I went here 507 00:37:42.320 --> 00:37:45.880 and then you know, instead of off down some deep rabbit hole and you're 508 00:37:45.960 --> 00:37:49.239 like, well, hey, you know, you could have bailed out up 509 00:37:49.280 --> 00:37:53.519 here or something like that. But I often find that, like time boxing 510 00:37:53.599 --> 00:37:58.840 works for that kind I mean, different people have different sort of like personal 511 00:37:59.440 --> 00:38:01.079 things that they do or in habits, and you kind of have to deal 512 00:38:01.119 --> 00:38:05.880 with different people differently in my experience, but for that kind of mentee, 513 00:38:06.000 --> 00:38:09.159 right you, I often find that, like you timebox, you're just like, 514 00:38:09.280 --> 00:38:13.719 hey, you know, if you spend two, three, four days, 515 00:38:14.400 --> 00:38:16.360 I mean I usually don't let them go past one or two, but 516 00:38:16.840 --> 00:38:20.960 you know, if you're spending multiple days on something, you should bail go 517 00:38:21.119 --> 00:38:23.360 talk to somebody. At that point. There's different kinds of problems I guess 518 00:38:23.440 --> 00:38:27.719 is what I'm trying to get at, and you find different solutions to help 519 00:38:27.760 --> 00:38:30.840 with those different mente problems. Yeah, absolutely, I agree. I think 520 00:38:30.880 --> 00:38:37.239 that we do find that trap where someone's afraid to ask questions, whether because 521 00:38:37.760 --> 00:38:42.079 if they ask a question, then that means that they are not as good 522 00:38:42.119 --> 00:38:45.000 as what they thought they were, imposter syndrome, sits in and whatever. 523 00:38:45.760 --> 00:38:51.079 And I think that's something that we need to get over. I get into 524 00:38:51.159 --> 00:38:54.880 that trap myself where I have an issue I just I can't figure it out, 525 00:38:55.719 --> 00:39:00.679 and you know, being able to humble your self enough to ask a 526 00:39:00.920 --> 00:39:06.199 question or say I need guidance. No, I don't want the answer, 527 00:39:06.239 --> 00:39:12.239 I just need guidance. And that's something that you can't read in a book. 528 00:39:12.400 --> 00:39:15.239 It's something that you have to, you know, learn how to do. 529 00:39:16.280 --> 00:39:21.119 And when you do go to ask questions, make sure that you know 530 00:39:21.280 --> 00:39:25.079 what you were wanting, what the outcome is, you know, don't just 531 00:39:27.400 --> 00:39:32.119 say something's not working. Know the issue well enough to be able to explain 532 00:39:32.239 --> 00:39:37.599 it clearly. Speaking of rabbit holing, I feel like we're kind of rabbit 533 00:39:37.639 --> 00:39:39.280 holing on this mentoring thing. Great discussion, Yeah, I love it, 534 00:39:39.360 --> 00:39:45.239 of course, But I think the point is that mentoring others as well as 535 00:39:45.519 --> 00:39:50.719 being mentored by others is a good way to level up. I think both 536 00:39:50.800 --> 00:39:53.360 aspects give you some stuff. I know, I, for one, as 537 00:39:53.440 --> 00:39:59.119 somebody who spent most of their career, especially the early part of it, 538 00:39:59.400 --> 00:40:04.239 with no me ers whatsoever, and I have only gotten mentoring late in my 539 00:40:04.400 --> 00:40:08.559 career. I really wish that I had gotten mentoring earlier in my career. 540 00:40:08.920 --> 00:40:13.000 It's been super helpful in these past few years, and I really wish I 541 00:40:13.039 --> 00:40:16.480 had done it sooner. So I definitely always highly recommend that to people. 542 00:40:16.920 --> 00:40:22.760 And it's good to find a mentor outside your organization, but you should be 543 00:40:22.840 --> 00:40:28.559 able to find one inside your organization. If your boss or the manager you 544 00:40:28.719 --> 00:40:34.039 report to is not technical enough to mentor you, they still have probably some 545 00:40:34.199 --> 00:40:39.159 valuable information to share, but you should look for someone else to help guide 546 00:40:39.199 --> 00:40:43.400 you, to help build you up. Because a lot of times, as 547 00:40:43.480 --> 00:40:46.280 we're working on code for a company, you can't really share that code outside 548 00:40:46.360 --> 00:40:52.000 the company, so you need to find someone internal that can help shape and 549 00:40:52.079 --> 00:40:54.800 mold you. Yep. Yeah, and it doesn't have to be the same 550 00:40:54.840 --> 00:41:00.199 person either, and it's funny because you know, especially for my early your 551 00:41:00.239 --> 00:41:04.440 career, listeners to this show have met my mentors. Right. My first 552 00:41:04.559 --> 00:41:07.039 job, I was working with Nate Hopkins and got to be really good friends 553 00:41:07.079 --> 00:41:12.760 with Eric Berry. And then after I worked with Nate for a while, 554 00:41:12.880 --> 00:41:16.360 I wound up working with David Brady and I worked with him for a year 555 00:41:16.519 --> 00:41:21.320 and then we've actually you know, collaborated on some other stuff off and on, 556 00:41:21.920 --> 00:41:27.920 and so yeah, it's interesting just from that standpoint of, Okay, 557 00:41:28.079 --> 00:41:30.719 you know, I kind of was put in a position where I worked with 558 00:41:30.880 --> 00:41:34.880 Nate and so I got to be mentored by him, and then you know, 559 00:41:35.000 --> 00:41:37.400 as things moved on, you know, I was mentored by other people. 560 00:41:38.000 --> 00:41:43.039 And I've also found that the podcast and going back to the community idea 561 00:41:43.920 --> 00:41:49.800 the podcast early in my career, Ruby Rogues will be ten years old in 562 00:41:50.679 --> 00:41:57.800 May, Right, I got mentored by James and Josh and Ovdy and David 563 00:41:58.079 --> 00:42:01.000 and anybody else we had on the show, right, and so I could 564 00:42:01.039 --> 00:42:04.920 go and find those mentors. Before that, I was doing the Rails Coach 565 00:42:05.000 --> 00:42:08.880 podcast and I talked to James, talked to Greg Pollock, who actually mentored 566 00:42:08.920 --> 00:42:13.400 me on podcasting, and so you you know, and maybe it was just 567 00:42:13.519 --> 00:42:15.239 one offs with some of these folks right where we did an interview and that 568 00:42:15.400 --> 00:42:20.480 was it. But I had the opportunity to kind of learn some of these 569 00:42:20.519 --> 00:42:23.360 things from some of the best people at them at the time. So it 570 00:42:23.480 --> 00:42:25.519 doesn't have to be all at once, it doesn't have to be the same 571 00:42:25.559 --> 00:42:29.519 person, doesn't have to be somebody you work with, And you can create 572 00:42:29.599 --> 00:42:34.559 these opportunities too by doing different things. You know, whether it's contributing to 573 00:42:34.599 --> 00:42:38.079 open source project that somebody you want to be mentored by works at, right, 574 00:42:38.920 --> 00:42:44.559 or whether it's doing a podcast and you just talk to them, or 575 00:42:44.920 --> 00:42:46.840 I mean, any of these things work, and so it's just a matter 576 00:42:46.960 --> 00:42:50.800 of figuring out how to get in front of them and make it worth it 577 00:42:50.840 --> 00:42:52.800 to them. Yeah. Right, So we're all senior developers now, right, 578 00:42:53.159 --> 00:42:57.760 mostly consider our hosts that way, right. I mean, even the 579 00:42:57.840 --> 00:42:59.920 ones that are like, well, I've only been doing this for a year 580 00:43:00.119 --> 00:43:04.280 too. I just I see them leveling up so quickly because they are They're 581 00:43:04.320 --> 00:43:07.920 talking to a lot of times the best people in the field and learning in 582 00:43:08.000 --> 00:43:12.119 those ways. So, yeah, it was a joke, but you know, 583 00:43:12.199 --> 00:43:15.840 I found my biggest struggle is that I am my own worst endime, 584 00:43:16.679 --> 00:43:22.400 whether it was me trying to figure something out, or my lack of attention 585 00:43:22.599 --> 00:43:30.679 to something, or my lack of focus on the task at hand. Now, 586 00:43:30.719 --> 00:43:34.079 I'm not saying that you have to work day and night in order to 587 00:43:34.159 --> 00:43:38.480 become a good developer. You just have to have good focus and to not 588 00:43:38.760 --> 00:43:44.320 stray off. You'll still get there, they'll just take you longer. Yeah, 589 00:43:44.480 --> 00:43:47.360 Yeah, I think there's a balancing act, right, So you have 590 00:43:47.519 --> 00:43:52.119 to do some amounts of demonstrating of your skills for the purpose of getting a 591 00:43:52.199 --> 00:43:57.800 good job and things like that, right, But really, at the end 592 00:43:57.800 --> 00:44:00.800 of the day, to be a good developer, you need a touch of, 593 00:44:00.960 --> 00:44:07.079 if not a lot of right humility and the ability to to understand what 594 00:44:07.159 --> 00:44:09.679 you're not good at. And so I don't I mean, that's just a 595 00:44:09.719 --> 00:44:17.679 struggle that like we all work with separating the the resume and interview self, 596 00:44:17.880 --> 00:44:22.440 right sort of from the person that shows up to collaborate with other people. 597 00:44:25.679 --> 00:44:30.400 Yeah, because you don't want to be thinking that you're the best. You 598 00:44:30.599 --> 00:44:35.599 also, at the same time don't want false humility, because that's that's how 599 00:44:35.639 --> 00:44:38.639 you end up in the place where you have you know, imposter center and 600 00:44:38.679 --> 00:44:43.880 all that kind of stuff. So it's it's a dance, and it's really 601 00:44:44.039 --> 00:44:47.679 hard, and I think that most people struggle with some aspect of it or 602 00:44:47.719 --> 00:44:53.880 another, and that's normal. And I would also say don't be intimidated by 603 00:44:54.239 --> 00:45:02.320 others because number one, if they are above you in a development level perspective, 604 00:45:02.840 --> 00:45:07.639 they've been where you were. But also, you know, just as 605 00:45:07.719 --> 00:45:10.280 an example, all of the Drift and Ruby videos that have put out, 606 00:45:10.960 --> 00:45:15.320 these are not just a oh, I want to record this episode, so 607 00:45:15.400 --> 00:45:19.159 I just go in and do it. I do a lot of research for 608 00:45:19.360 --> 00:45:24.679 every single episode on what is going to be the best information to share with 609 00:45:25.239 --> 00:45:29.960 the listener. So it's not something that I just whip up and do. 610 00:45:30.559 --> 00:45:35.320 And same thing for blog articles. They don't just start typing away and then 611 00:45:35.840 --> 00:45:38.599 the issue. You know, the blog articles done with all this code that 612 00:45:38.679 --> 00:45:44.280 they just hand wrote right there on the spot. A lot of research went 613 00:45:44.360 --> 00:45:50.599 into it. So all of these people who you may look up to and 614 00:45:50.639 --> 00:45:54.920 stuff are putting in a lot of effort and time in their research to then 615 00:45:55.079 --> 00:46:00.880 show you the final draft. No, it's that you know, Daniel Russo 616 00:46:00.920 --> 00:46:06.119 at the beginning of the movie and the Ninja Daniel Russo at the end. 617 00:46:06.760 --> 00:46:10.639 Now, that's the process that we go through when we publish out content. 618 00:46:12.239 --> 00:46:15.320 It's not just a quick take and we're done. Yeah. Well, the 619 00:46:15.360 --> 00:46:17.960 other thing is is, you know, he went to the tournament and he 620 00:46:19.039 --> 00:46:23.519 didn't win the tournament in one bout right. He had to go fight each 621 00:46:24.360 --> 00:46:30.360 round. And that's I like what you're saying, Dave, because yeah, 622 00:46:30.519 --> 00:46:36.679 I mean each stage takes some work, Each stage takes some prep, each 623 00:46:36.800 --> 00:46:40.000 stage takes some research, and at the end of the day, I mean 624 00:46:40.360 --> 00:46:44.320 you you kind of pick some battles and you go and you fight one and 625 00:46:44.360 --> 00:46:46.119 then you fight the next one, and you know, you learn and you 626 00:46:46.199 --> 00:46:51.559 overcome and you level up. And yeah, it doesn't it doesn't all happen 627 00:46:51.599 --> 00:46:54.760 at once. And so yeah, if you're looking at being the next dahh, 628 00:46:54.920 --> 00:47:00.159 that's fairly intimidating. But at THEHH level up one stage at a time, 629 00:47:00.280 --> 00:47:04.199 just like everybody else. One other thing I want to talk about though 630 00:47:04.400 --> 00:47:07.840 here just before we wrap up, is we've kind of focused on leveling up 631 00:47:07.920 --> 00:47:13.840 on the technical skills, but what about those soft skills, you know, 632 00:47:14.000 --> 00:47:19.320 the teamwork skills, the communication skills, the leadership skills, you know, 633 00:47:19.400 --> 00:47:22.800 there's not really technical documentation for that. There are great books out there, 634 00:47:22.840 --> 00:47:24.719 I will say, and that's kind of where I've learned a lot of this. 635 00:47:25.360 --> 00:47:31.039 But do you guys have other recommendations for learning thees, practicing thees, 636 00:47:31.400 --> 00:47:36.039 leveling up the knees, that kind of thing. I would say, First, 637 00:47:36.079 --> 00:47:38.960 get your resume up to date, you know, work on your resume, 638 00:47:39.119 --> 00:47:45.760 because you can learn a lot about the soft skills in communication by updating 639 00:47:45.840 --> 00:47:52.079 your resume. And specifically, I'm talking about being able to clearly communicate and 640 00:47:52.239 --> 00:48:00.360 concisely communicate, because your resume is going to be the epitome of clear and 641 00:48:00.480 --> 00:48:06.480 concise communication. When I was hiring, I was reviewing a lot of resumes. 642 00:48:06.960 --> 00:48:12.320 Some resumes would be three pages long, and I got one that was 643 00:48:12.440 --> 00:48:17.599 over ten pages long, and wow, that right there. My very first 644 00:48:17.639 --> 00:48:24.000 impression of this resume was this person has a real problem with clear and concise 645 00:48:24.119 --> 00:48:30.679 communication. So what you'll find is as you go to review and edit your 646 00:48:31.079 --> 00:48:37.679 resume is that it's not a one time you sit down in then you're done. 647 00:48:37.480 --> 00:48:42.360 You read through it. You missed the semi colin, you missed the 648 00:48:42.639 --> 00:48:46.159 period, you miss whatever you need to reword this it's not clear, you 649 00:48:46.320 --> 00:48:52.920 give it to someone else to review, and after several weeks then you have 650 00:48:53.320 --> 00:48:59.039 something that is clear and concise. And that's how you should really tackle a 651 00:48:59.119 --> 00:49:02.599 lot of these soft skill things. When you're asking questions, when you're giving 652 00:49:02.639 --> 00:49:08.679 in answer, is are you conveying the point that needs to be conveyed clearly 653 00:49:08.920 --> 00:49:15.199 and concisely, because then people will listen. If it's easy to listen to 654 00:49:15.320 --> 00:49:19.960 you, then people will listen. If you make it to where people's heads 655 00:49:19.960 --> 00:49:23.800 are spinning, they might be listening to you, but they're not hearing you. 656 00:49:24.400 --> 00:49:28.440 It's going in one ear and out the other, and they're just tuning 657 00:49:28.480 --> 00:49:32.280 out thinking about what they're going to do after that meeting or whatever. Speaking 658 00:49:32.320 --> 00:49:37.079 of resumes. Speaking of resumes, actually ran across a sweet article on stack 659 00:49:37.159 --> 00:49:43.199 over flow of blog. It was Thanksgiving weekend. I think that I'll add 660 00:49:43.199 --> 00:49:45.920 to the show notes I was gonna After you said, I was like, 661 00:49:45.039 --> 00:49:50.760 I'm totally recommending that thing. It was probably I don't know. I've always 662 00:49:50.760 --> 00:49:54.599 struggled to give people a resume guide that I think will actually help them, 663 00:49:54.639 --> 00:50:00.360 because I think most resume guides are full of like either vaguees that you know, 664 00:50:00.480 --> 00:50:04.280 people really can't wade through. If they're asking me questions about how to 665 00:50:04.320 --> 00:50:07.719 improve the resume, they already didn't understand these vagaries, right, or or 666 00:50:07.800 --> 00:50:12.599 it's like stuff that doesn't really apply to developers in particular, things like that, 667 00:50:12.840 --> 00:50:15.639 and this particular one is geared towards developers. It gives a lot of 668 00:50:15.800 --> 00:50:21.480 really useful tips to both seniors and juniors. It was just really really well 669 00:50:21.519 --> 00:50:25.519 done and I literally have never seen an actual applicable guide, So I'll definitely 670 00:50:25.719 --> 00:50:30.760 recommend that. But yeah, resume point nice one. Did you have any 671 00:50:30.840 --> 00:50:35.679 more? Dave? Before I know, go for him? Man. So 672 00:50:35.880 --> 00:50:42.119 I was I was thinking one of the things that I personally found helpful for 673 00:50:42.360 --> 00:50:45.000 me was to and I do this for a lot of things in life, 674 00:50:45.079 --> 00:50:49.159 right, I am like, hm, I want to improve this aspect of 675 00:50:49.199 --> 00:50:54.079 my life. I go find somebody that I think does a good job at 676 00:50:54.159 --> 00:50:59.360 it and probably stalk them a little bit too much, not really, but 677 00:50:59.639 --> 00:51:02.079 like I I literally think about what it is that that makes them work, 678 00:51:02.519 --> 00:51:06.559 and I try and mimic a lot of that stuff, and you know, 679 00:51:06.760 --> 00:51:08.400 just incorporated into myself. And I'm sure a lot of people do this kind 680 00:51:08.440 --> 00:51:14.159 of thing, but I definitely consciously do that. It is definitely a process 681 00:51:14.199 --> 00:51:20.400 that I recommend when you're like recognizing something is not you know where you want 682 00:51:20.440 --> 00:51:22.320 it to be. Right. So, if you want to be like a 683 00:51:22.400 --> 00:51:25.599 senior developer, I mean, invite them to beers. Talk with them all 684 00:51:25.639 --> 00:51:29.320 the time, you know, get one of them to be your mentor like 685 00:51:29.519 --> 00:51:35.719 do do the things that give you the opportunity to watch them and or just 686 00:51:36.000 --> 00:51:38.960 like hear them talk a bunch, learn more from them. Yeah. One 687 00:51:39.039 --> 00:51:45.079 other thing that I'm going to throw in on that, John is a lot 688 00:51:45.320 --> 00:51:50.280 of folks what they wind up struggling with. And the reason that I started 689 00:51:50.320 --> 00:51:52.960 by talking about, you know what is kind of a top five percent developer, 690 00:51:53.039 --> 00:51:59.400 what's a most valuable developer is that they don't have a clear idea what 691 00:51:59.480 --> 00:52:00.880 they want right. They don't have a clear idea where they want to end 692 00:52:01.000 --> 00:52:06.719 up. And so what winds up happening is is they start just thinking, 693 00:52:06.800 --> 00:52:08.360 Okay, well, I just want a better position than I have now. 694 00:52:09.119 --> 00:52:14.199 And the reality is is that you know, in a few years, yeah, 695 00:52:14.519 --> 00:52:15.079 what do you want to be? Where do you want to be? 696 00:52:15.199 --> 00:52:19.079 Do you want to be a CTO of a startup? Do you want to 697 00:52:19.119 --> 00:52:22.360 be working for a really big company. Do you want to be contributing and 698 00:52:22.519 --> 00:52:27.840 speaking at conferences? I mean, you know, sit down and just just 699 00:52:28.119 --> 00:52:30.760 kind of figure that out, right. Do you want to be a team 700 00:52:30.840 --> 00:52:32.119 lead? Do you want to be kind of a level up from a team 701 00:52:32.199 --> 00:52:37.000 lead a mid level manager. Maybe you figure out that your passion is for 702 00:52:37.079 --> 00:52:40.800 project management, but you want to write some code. I mean, all 703 00:52:40.880 --> 00:52:45.960 of this stuff kind of plays, right, And so by knowing that, 704 00:52:45.039 --> 00:52:47.440 then you can pick your mentors. Right. Then you can turn around and 705 00:52:47.480 --> 00:52:52.079 say, okay, that person, you know, that developer is doing what 706 00:52:52.199 --> 00:52:55.480 I want to do. Right, So if you want to make videos like 707 00:52:55.559 --> 00:52:59.719 what Dave does, right, get to no date, right, and then 708 00:52:59.760 --> 00:53:02.559 go copy him and you know, figure out what he's doing and figure out 709 00:53:02.599 --> 00:53:06.159 how he does it and talk to him and email him and you know, 710 00:53:06.360 --> 00:53:08.719 get get to know him and things like that. Right. That that's where 711 00:53:08.760 --> 00:53:15.719 that magic is going to happen. But I'll say, thinking I'm about to 712 00:53:15.800 --> 00:53:20.400 have a fourth child, I don't have time. I have no time anymore, 713 00:53:21.599 --> 00:53:25.079 right, Yeah, but you know I am always on Slack and stuff 714 00:53:25.159 --> 00:53:30.159 to help people out. Yeah, But the thing is is as far as 715 00:53:30.880 --> 00:53:35.519 Slack goes or things like that. I mean, ultimately, you know, 716 00:53:35.760 --> 00:53:37.199 I could reach out to you and say, Okay, you know I want 717 00:53:37.280 --> 00:53:40.360 to do kind of the drifting Rubie, or if somebody reached out to me, 718 00:53:40.480 --> 00:53:44.440 right, hey, I want to do a podcast, and I can 719 00:53:44.599 --> 00:53:46.480 give you enough advice to get you rolling for a few weeks, right, 720 00:53:47.039 --> 00:53:51.480 And so I may not hold your hand for the whole process, but I 721 00:53:51.519 --> 00:53:52.519 can say, look, you need this, you need this, you need 722 00:53:52.639 --> 00:53:55.360 this, And then maybe you come back and you're like, Okay, you 723 00:53:55.400 --> 00:53:59.400 said I need album artwork, but I don't have a lot of budget for 724 00:53:59.480 --> 00:54:00.079 that, So how do I do that? And then maybe I tell you 725 00:54:00.159 --> 00:54:05.800 to go use fiber right, use fiber Here's here's the you know, here's 726 00:54:05.800 --> 00:54:08.639 what I tell people when I want artwork done on fiber right, And I 727 00:54:08.719 --> 00:54:13.239 can kind of hand you something that takes me about two minutes to look up, 728 00:54:13.760 --> 00:54:16.199 and you know that that's kind of the situation, right, And so 729 00:54:16.599 --> 00:54:21.000 it doesn't have to be this long drawn out thing. Or maybe I just 730 00:54:21.199 --> 00:54:22.199 I do let you know, hey, look, you know I'm trying to 731 00:54:22.239 --> 00:54:25.840 launch these other things. I'm in the middle of this stuff. I'll answer 732 00:54:25.840 --> 00:54:30.079 anything that I can answer in less than a couple of minutes. But don't 733 00:54:30.079 --> 00:54:31.480 be offended if I tell you, hey, that's a ten minute answer and 734 00:54:31.519 --> 00:54:35.400 I don't have it, right, or an hour long answer and I don't 735 00:54:35.440 --> 00:54:38.079 have it and and you know, so then you can set expectations or things 736 00:54:38.119 --> 00:54:40.840 like that. Also, the other thing I've seen with a lot of folks 737 00:54:40.960 --> 00:54:45.440 is don't be shocked if they don't get back to you because they are busy, 738 00:54:45.800 --> 00:54:50.840 right, So yeah, don't figure yeah, because there's somebody else too 739 00:54:51.000 --> 00:54:53.599 that might be able to help you with that person it's busy or something. 740 00:54:54.239 --> 00:54:59.000 Yeah, so yeah, that's definitely something. But you know, pick your 741 00:54:59.079 --> 00:55:01.280 mentor for where they can get you, right. So, Okay, I 742 00:55:01.360 --> 00:55:06.400 want to be here in three years, So the next logical step is either 743 00:55:06.440 --> 00:55:08.360 this thing or that thing. Okay, I can find I can find somebody 744 00:55:08.440 --> 00:55:13.880 that I can associate with that can help me that with that and be deliberate 745 00:55:13.920 --> 00:55:17.960 about it. Yeah, I definitely that's a really good point because I tend 746 00:55:19.159 --> 00:55:22.400 to just operate from the assumption that people have goals, right, But but 747 00:55:22.480 --> 00:55:25.239 yeah, you do have to find your goal first, then all the rest 748 00:55:25.280 --> 00:55:29.199 of this stuff can follow. Yep. So yeah, I think we've been 749 00:55:29.199 --> 00:55:30.599 going for about an hour. Is there anything else you want you guys wanted 750 00:55:30.639 --> 00:55:35.400 to put in. I mean, I have tons more stuff that I'm pulling 751 00:55:35.440 --> 00:55:37.079 together for this, but I don't think we have time to cover it here. 752 00:55:37.360 --> 00:55:40.519 No, I do have a book that I planned to recommend too, 753 00:55:40.960 --> 00:55:45.920 which was useful for me, right, So I've totally recommended on the show 754 00:55:45.960 --> 00:55:49.880 before. I recommend it again, but never split the difference negotiating like your 755 00:55:49.920 --> 00:55:52.960 life depends upon it. There's tons of awesome books out there, right that 756 00:55:52.119 --> 00:55:58.159 can give you that can help you like level up like various aspects. But 757 00:55:58.360 --> 00:56:00.519 for me, like, one of the things that I struggled with is, 758 00:56:01.400 --> 00:56:07.719 you know, yes, I've never really struggled with like the ability to win 759 00:56:07.800 --> 00:56:12.039 an argument right, which I don't think is an uncommon struggle. The issue 760 00:56:12.159 --> 00:56:15.679 is I wanted to win an argument. I didn't necessarily want to win an 761 00:56:15.760 --> 00:56:17.480 argument. What I wanted to do was I wanted to come to the right 762 00:56:17.559 --> 00:56:22.840 answer, and I didn't want to piss off my co workers right or mess 763 00:56:22.880 --> 00:56:27.039 with our relationships right. And so a lot of that is about, well, 764 00:56:27.039 --> 00:56:29.639 how do I negotiate right, because that's really what you're doing a lot 765 00:56:29.719 --> 00:56:32.360 of the times is we're negotiating what we think what trade offs we think are 766 00:56:32.440 --> 00:56:37.159 the most important. So for me, that was a particular thing that I 767 00:56:37.280 --> 00:56:40.239 needed to learn, and this book happened to hit the spot or whatever. 768 00:56:40.400 --> 00:56:44.519 But you know, there's tons of other books out there. If you can 769 00:56:44.599 --> 00:56:49.440 figure out what aspect it is that you're struggling with, right, you can 770 00:56:49.519 --> 00:56:52.880 address it if you I'm sure there's a book for that thing, basically is 771 00:56:52.920 --> 00:56:58.320 my point. YEP, I agree. I really like Audible as well. 772 00:56:59.119 --> 00:57:02.119 You'll find links to Audible on dev chat dot tv. That's an affiliate link, 773 00:57:02.159 --> 00:57:06.320 so I get a kick back if you use it. But audio books, 774 00:57:06.400 --> 00:57:08.280 especially when I'm like going for a run or something, it's such a 775 00:57:08.320 --> 00:57:12.239 great way to go. All right, well let's go ahead do some picks, 776 00:57:12.719 --> 00:57:15.280 John, Do you want to start us with picks? Yeah? I 777 00:57:15.360 --> 00:57:17.960 mean you do already know my first two, so never split the difference. 778 00:57:19.039 --> 00:57:22.400 Like I said, I'll put it. I'll put the Amazon link just because 779 00:57:22.599 --> 00:57:24.079 you don't have to buy it from Amazon. But but yeah, like I 780 00:57:24.119 --> 00:57:29.760 said, it's a good book. It helps with like negotiating thing negotiating type 781 00:57:29.880 --> 00:57:32.760 tactics, which comes up way more in life than you really think it does 782 00:57:32.920 --> 00:57:37.960 right, Especially as developers. One of the things that you're doing that requires 783 00:57:37.039 --> 00:57:42.159 negotiation all the time is when you're trying to decide between you know, maybe 784 00:57:42.199 --> 00:57:45.440 two gems or something like that. Right you're having an argument about architecture. 785 00:57:45.880 --> 00:57:50.639 You're negotiating with your developer, your fellow developer there, right And depending on 786 00:57:50.679 --> 00:57:52.920 what your goal is, whether you want to win the argument if that's the 787 00:57:53.000 --> 00:57:57.760 most important to you, or whether you want to walk away with both parties 788 00:57:57.840 --> 00:58:00.880 being happy, there's there's probably a tack thick in this book for you. 789 00:58:00.400 --> 00:58:05.920 So it was helpful for me and it just it changed how I thought about 790 00:58:06.000 --> 00:58:07.800 negotiations in general. I would also say that, you know, if you're 791 00:58:07.800 --> 00:58:14.519 a freelancer too, that's actually why I got into this book originally before discovering 792 00:58:14.559 --> 00:58:19.119 that I had applications to other aspects of my life. So it's also useful 793 00:58:19.159 --> 00:58:22.320 there. So that's pick number one. Second one is the resume guide that 794 00:58:22.360 --> 00:58:28.239 I mentioned earlier. It was fantastically awesome, so definitely if you want to 795 00:58:28.239 --> 00:58:30.199 brush up on your resume, go check it out. And then lastly, 796 00:58:30.840 --> 00:58:36.000 so I haven't had Scotch Pick in a while, but I recently got a 797 00:58:36.079 --> 00:58:43.159 hold of Nika Yuichi. So if you're somewhat familiar with Japanese whiskey, you 798 00:58:43.920 --> 00:58:45.880 may be aware that, like, if you don't live in Washington State, 799 00:58:46.400 --> 00:58:52.039 you basically can't get Japanese whiskey in the US. It's not exactly that bad, 800 00:58:52.119 --> 00:58:58.280 but it's just hard and Nika in particular has kind of been out of 801 00:58:58.360 --> 00:59:01.639 stuff for a while. I'm probably butchering the name, so you know, 802 00:59:01.800 --> 00:59:05.639 if you guys have suggestions, let me know. But yeah, anyway, 803 00:59:06.239 --> 00:59:09.920 I picked it up. It is there's a reason why it's out. It's 804 00:59:10.000 --> 00:59:13.920 not the best whiskey I've ever had in my entire life by any means, 805 00:59:14.000 --> 00:59:16.920 but it's different. It's very unique. It is, like anyway, it's 806 00:59:16.920 --> 00:59:21.159 a lot like other Japanese whiskey's flowery, it's got some citrus stuff in it. 807 00:59:21.320 --> 00:59:25.599 But it's very unique from what you're getting from Scotland. It's obviously very 808 00:59:25.679 --> 00:59:29.960 nique from American whiskeys. Cool, those are my picks. I was going 809 00:59:30.039 --> 00:59:32.199 to say, I don't think Japanese are really too well known for whiskey. 810 00:59:35.000 --> 00:59:38.800 They that is a new ish thing. It's a couple of decades, a 811 00:59:38.840 --> 00:59:43.639 couple of decades now, I think but yeah, ever since, I want 812 00:59:43.679 --> 00:59:49.320 to say it was five to ten years ago that they basically landed like best 813 00:59:49.320 --> 00:59:52.079 whiskey in the world over Scotch, right, and then all of a sudden 814 00:59:52.119 --> 00:59:57.360 everybody wanted it, So it's been crazy for the past five years. Yeah, 815 00:59:57.400 --> 01:00:00.599 among people that drink whiskey, I guess I assume. Yeah, cool, 816 01:00:00.000 --> 01:00:02.599 Dave, Do you have some picks? Yeah? Sure, So, 817 01:00:04.679 --> 01:00:09.159 in the spirit of working with others, mentoring and all that could stuff, 818 01:00:09.400 --> 01:00:14.760 my first pick is going to be the Ruby on Rail slack channel. It 819 01:00:14.920 --> 01:00:21.960 is a group of over fourteen thousand developers, so Ruby developers, and it's 820 01:00:22.159 --> 01:00:28.159 one of the most friendly Ruby communities that I've seen. So I'm like going 821 01:00:28.280 --> 01:00:31.599 to Reddit for Ruby stuff, you know, which I think Reddit will just 822 01:00:31.719 --> 01:00:36.239 crap all over you, so you know, I really don't care for Reddit, 823 01:00:36.360 --> 01:00:42.519 but whatever, but this community is very well mannered and if you have 824 01:00:42.760 --> 01:00:47.119 issues, everyone there is always really wanting to help and help guide you along. 825 01:00:47.920 --> 01:00:52.079 So I'll put a link to that. And the second pick is something 826 01:00:52.119 --> 01:00:59.440 that recently discovered it at home depot and it is track lighting. So up 827 01:00:59.480 --> 01:01:04.880 above behind my desk, I have some track lighting that installed that put the 828 01:01:05.000 --> 01:01:09.400 Phillips who bulbs in And I had no idea that track lighting worked the way 829 01:01:09.440 --> 01:01:15.440 it did. You essentially have a rail that you just install and it carries 830 01:01:15.519 --> 01:01:20.880 the conduit, so it has conduit in it that you can then just twist 831 01:01:20.960 --> 01:01:25.239 and snap in compatible light bulbs or the light fixtures and then screw in your 832 01:01:25.320 --> 01:01:30.920 light bulb. Coolest thing ever. So I had no idea they work like 833 01:01:30.000 --> 01:01:34.519 that. I thought I was going to have to do a whole love get 834 01:01:34.639 --> 01:01:38.480 very specific things, and it was just a one evening wanted to do it. 835 01:01:38.639 --> 01:01:42.519 Went to home depot, grab the stuff, did it. It was 836 01:01:42.679 --> 01:01:45.760 a very enjoyable experience. But you know, for those who don't know any 837 01:01:45.840 --> 01:01:51.920 kind of electrical stuff, a conduit is basically carrying the electricity. So if 838 01:01:51.960 --> 01:01:54.199 you're not careful and you stick your hands in there while that thing is hot, 839 01:01:54.519 --> 01:01:59.639 then you will shock the crap out of yourself. So just wear gloves 840 01:01:59.719 --> 01:02:05.840 higher professional. This is not a diiy advice, but if you're comfortable with 841 01:02:05.920 --> 01:02:08.599 electricity, then go for it. Awesome, very cool. I'm going to 842 01:02:08.639 --> 01:02:12.679 throw in a few picks on my own, so I mentioned. One of 843 01:02:12.679 --> 01:02:15.079 them is a three hundred and sixty degree leader that's by John C. Maxwell. 844 01:02:15.159 --> 01:02:19.599 He has a whole bunch of leadership books and I've read like two or 845 01:02:19.639 --> 01:02:22.079 three of them and they are all excellent, the ones that I've read. 846 01:02:22.440 --> 01:02:28.239 So I love that book. And then Dave actually started talking about and then 847 01:02:28.280 --> 01:02:30.519 we I think we kind of derailed onto something else. But there's another book 848 01:02:30.519 --> 01:02:35.639 out there called The Hero's Journey, and trying to remember who the author is 849 01:02:35.679 --> 01:02:37.800 on that, I'm going to open up Audible and have a look while we're 850 01:02:37.840 --> 01:02:43.360 talking. But it's basically kind of the three act structure that you're used to 851 01:02:43.519 --> 01:02:49.239 in movies, and it basically walks you through that. And yeah, people 852 01:02:49.280 --> 01:02:52.920 are very familiar with that. In fact, I have a few people in 853 01:02:52.039 --> 01:02:55.519 my life who understand it to the degree that they like spoil every movie that 854 01:02:55.599 --> 01:03:00.679 you watch with them. But yeah, it's okay. It's The Hero with 855 01:03:00.760 --> 01:03:05.639 a Thousand Faces by Joseph Campbell, and yeah, I mean it basically just 856 01:03:05.719 --> 01:03:08.800 breaks it down. And this is like the three act flavor that you get 857 01:03:08.840 --> 01:03:12.400 out of like the Divine Comedy. I mean, it's been around forever, 858 01:03:12.760 --> 01:03:15.440 all the way up to our current you know movies and things like that, 859 01:03:15.039 --> 01:03:19.800 and yeah, you know, if you kind of look at yourself as the 860 01:03:19.960 --> 01:03:23.480 unknown person that gets pulled out of the shire or you know whatever. Right, 861 01:03:23.639 --> 01:03:30.519 you definitely get some idea of this is a journey that we all understand 862 01:03:30.559 --> 01:03:34.360 well. And yeah, you kind of have to go walk down the road 863 01:03:34.440 --> 01:03:37.599 or down the trail before you wind up getting all the way to the mountain 864 01:03:37.719 --> 01:03:43.760 where the dragon is hoarding his gold. So I'm just going to throw that 865 01:03:43.840 --> 01:03:46.239 out there as well. But yeah, I've really really enjoyed that as well, 866 01:03:46.360 --> 01:03:50.920 just kind of getting an idea of how people work through that. Another 867 01:03:50.960 --> 01:03:54.280 book that I read recently that I've really liked is Story Brand by Donald Miller, 868 01:03:55.239 --> 01:03:59.840 and it's kind of got a lot of the same elements, except it's 869 01:04:00.079 --> 01:04:05.360 much more focused around how you help people perceive you or your business that in 870 01:04:05.480 --> 01:04:09.599 his case, because he's talking about business and branding. But yeah, I 871 01:04:09.719 --> 01:04:13.119 really really enjoyed that one as well. So if uh, oh, what 872 01:04:13.239 --> 01:04:16.239 I do I bump something on my phone because I'm holding it while I'm talking, 873 01:04:16.280 --> 01:04:19.360 because I look stuff up on audible, But yeah, so he walks 874 01:04:19.400 --> 01:04:21.920 you through how you want to approach it, how you want to set up 875 01:04:21.920 --> 01:04:26.039 your website and things like that, and so if you're kind of on the 876 01:04:26.239 --> 01:04:28.880 end of Okay, I want to put together some content or I want to 877 01:04:28.920 --> 01:04:32.239 build my reputation one way or the other. It's a terrific way to kind 878 01:04:32.280 --> 01:04:36.760 of figure out how to frame what you've done and who you are so that 879 01:04:36.880 --> 01:04:43.679 people can connect with that, if that makes sense. So anyway, those 880 01:04:43.679 --> 01:04:47.079 are my picks, and yeah, we'll wrap up here. Thanks guys. 881 01:04:47.119 --> 01:04:50.039 This has been a really, really great discussion. Hey didn't you say he 882 01:04:50.079 --> 01:04:53.960 had a sneak peek or something? Oh, yes, I did. So 883 01:04:54.440 --> 01:04:57.559 I am working on and I have a few weeks to put this together, 884 01:04:57.840 --> 01:05:02.559 but I plan on releasing around Christmas. I'm releasing so to back up, 885 01:05:02.960 --> 01:05:08.000 I did a podcast growth summit, and by did, I mean next week 886 01:05:08.079 --> 01:05:11.599 it's going live. Incidentally, it starts on my birthday, so go figure. 887 01:05:11.920 --> 01:05:15.679 But yeah, I wound up talking to a guy named Jamie Atkinson and 888 01:05:15.320 --> 01:05:19.559 he does a bunch of podcast coaching and stuff like that, and he introduced 889 01:05:19.599 --> 01:05:24.039 me to the idea of a pop up podcast. And so essentially what it 890 01:05:24.199 --> 01:05:27.199 is is you go to the web page you put in your email address, 891 01:05:27.239 --> 01:05:31.480 and I will send you a private link to a podcast that's exclusive to people 892 01:05:31.559 --> 01:05:36.599 who put in their email addresses, and I am going to it's going to 893 01:05:36.639 --> 01:05:41.159 be a five part series. The episodes are probably going to be forty five 894 01:05:41.199 --> 01:05:44.679 minutes to an hour, and I'm just going to talk through the different pieces 895 01:05:44.840 --> 01:05:47.760 of being a top five percent developer and what you could do to make that 896 01:05:47.920 --> 01:05:53.000 journey. So, if you're kind of stuck, you're not happy with your 897 01:05:53.079 --> 01:05:56.000 job for whatever reason, you don't feel like you're growing, you're not sure 898 01:05:56.039 --> 01:05:59.400 how to get to the end of the road that you want to be on, 899 01:06:00.199 --> 01:06:03.199 if you're just kind of lost as far as what to do, what 900 01:06:03.400 --> 01:06:06.800 to do in your career next, or maybe you feel like you've gotten to 901 01:06:06.960 --> 01:06:11.480 the top of your career. Right, So you are that senior developer that 902 01:06:12.199 --> 01:06:15.039 the people kind of already go to at your job, and you're looking at, 903 01:06:15.159 --> 01:06:18.679 Okay, well, how do I go from here to the level of 904 01:06:18.719 --> 01:06:24.000 people that are speaking at rails comp for ruby kov, who are presenting on 905 01:06:24.039 --> 01:06:27.920 a regular basis on the internet, maybe doing a podcast. That's what this 906 01:06:28.079 --> 01:06:30.159 is going to be. So if you're at the senior level, some of 907 01:06:30.199 --> 01:06:32.960 this stuff is going to be stuff you're probably already doing. But I really 908 01:06:33.000 --> 01:06:38.039 do intend to hit the content piece of it. Rather hard and talk about 909 01:06:38.119 --> 01:06:41.920 how to kind of get from the five percent to the one percent in the 910 01:06:42.039 --> 01:06:46.039 last episode. So if you're looking for that kind of content, Yeah, 911 01:06:46.159 --> 01:06:50.880 it's going to be free at least through the end of the year, through 912 01:06:50.920 --> 01:06:55.639 the end of twenty twenty, and it'll come out. I think I'm just 913 01:06:55.679 --> 01:06:58.400 going to set it up so that you can go sign up and it'll come 914 01:06:58.440 --> 01:07:00.880 out on Christmas, so you'll get it on Christmas, you'll get the episodes, 915 01:07:01.480 --> 01:07:04.480 and yeah, that's what I'm putting together. So that's the sneak peak. 916 01:07:04.880 --> 01:07:08.679 I guess the other sneak peak is I'm also working on a podcast called 917 01:07:08.679 --> 01:07:12.320 the dev rev where I talk about this for ten to fifteen minutes every day 918 01:07:12.960 --> 01:07:17.559 or five days a week and just hit one aspect like one and it's not 919 01:07:17.920 --> 01:07:21.119 like this, oh, here's the idea of what you can do. No, 920 01:07:21.320 --> 01:07:24.960 it's going to be hey it, go do this. It's going to 921 01:07:25.000 --> 01:07:30.719 be an actionable called action that something that you can do relatively quickly to get 922 01:07:30.760 --> 01:07:33.760 you a little bit further down that road. So I mean, for a 923 01:07:33.800 --> 01:07:36.599 week, I might do something like, okay, you need to launch your 924 01:07:36.639 --> 01:07:40.239 podcast. Here's day one, and here's how you do it in five to 925 01:07:40.320 --> 01:07:42.920 ten minutes. Here's day two, right, and so it all builds on 926 01:07:42.960 --> 01:07:45.159 each other. Some of it's just going to be stuff where it's like, 927 01:07:45.440 --> 01:07:48.639 hey, go figure out what your next project is in this area, right, 928 01:07:48.800 --> 01:07:54.199 and then we just give you an actionable Okay, go set up get 929 01:07:54.320 --> 01:07:58.199 the gethub repository, go set up to read me, go do this right. 930 01:07:58.559 --> 01:08:00.880 Or on leadership stuff, it's you know, go talk to the people 931 01:08:00.960 --> 01:08:03.880 that work under you and get their feedback on how you can do better, 932 01:08:03.960 --> 01:08:06.840 and here's here's one actionable thing that you can do. That's that's what I 933 01:08:06.880 --> 01:08:11.400 want to do, is I want to give people a homework that they can 934 01:08:11.480 --> 01:08:15.840 go do that they can go level up on every day. And I fully 935 01:08:15.880 --> 01:08:18.520 expect a lot of this stuff to be cumulative in the sense that as you 936 01:08:18.600 --> 01:08:21.079 do a lot of this stuff, not all of it's going to relate to 937 01:08:21.159 --> 01:08:26.439 each other, but eventually it'll all play into leading you into that place where 938 01:08:26.479 --> 01:08:30.000 you're getting to be that top five percent developer. So there you go. 939 01:08:30.079 --> 01:08:32.319 Two sneak previews. Cool, and then of course there's going to be courses 940 01:08:32.399 --> 01:08:34.840 and stuff on the other end of it. But for right now, I 941 01:08:34.920 --> 01:08:38.359 just want to get that out there because so many people are struggling with this, 942 01:08:38.479 --> 01:08:41.600 and for heaven's sake, let's get you there. So yeah, that's 943 01:08:41.640 --> 01:08:44.079 it, that's what I'm working on. All right, Well, let's go 944 01:08:44.079 --> 01:08:46.800 ahead and wrap this up. And yeah, thanks again guys for all of 945 01:08:46.880 --> 01:08:49.680 your input, because yeah, it help clarify some stuff for me too. 946 01:08:49.960 --> 01:08:51.000 Yeah, max out everything