1 00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:21,760 So back with another edition of the Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Emily Jasinsky, 2 00:00:21,839 --> 00:00:25,239 culture editor here at the Federalist. As always, you can email the show 3 00:00:25,280 --> 00:00:29,519 at radio at the Federalist dot com, follow us on Twitter at fdr LST, 4 00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:33,280 make sure to subscribe where ever you download your podcasts, and to the 5 00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:38,159 premium version of our website over at Federalist dot com as well. Today, 6 00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:42,560 I'm very pleased to be joined by Elizabeth Spalding. Elizabeth is the chairman of 7 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:48,600 the board of the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation. She's also the founding director 8 00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:53,359 of the Victims of Communism Museum here in Washington, DC and a senior fellow 9 00:00:53,359 --> 00:00:58,479 at the Pepperdine School of Public Policy. Elizabeth, Welcome to the show. 10 00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:02,079 Thank you, Emily. It's a pleasure to be with you. You know, 11 00:01:02,119 --> 00:01:07,560 it's the one year anniversary of the museum opening up downtown in Washington, 12 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:12,200 DC, and I am so curious to hear how the reception, what the 13 00:01:12,239 --> 00:01:15,760 reception has been like over the course of the past year. And maybe you 14 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:19,760 know, folks haven't had a chance to get down to DC. Even me 15 00:01:19,799 --> 00:01:22,079 I live here, I haven't been able to get down there yet. Even 16 00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:26,000 though I'm very, very eager to I've heard it's very powerful. You know, 17 00:01:26,359 --> 00:01:32,359 what are some of the big takeaways from the last year as you've observed 18 00:01:32,439 --> 00:01:38,239 the growth of the museum for the last year, it has been fascinating to 19 00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:44,480 watch that growth. We had a big dedication which was marvelous and it was 20 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:49,560 on the fortieth anniversary of Ronald Reagan's Parliament address to Britain. So those of 21 00:01:49,560 --> 00:01:55,159 your listeners that know any history know that that would be connected to Reagan talking 22 00:01:55,200 --> 00:01:59,079 about communism will end up on the ash heap of history and that means no 23 00:01:59,159 --> 00:02:01,359 more victims. Well, we're still working, you know, to have no 24 00:02:01,439 --> 00:02:07,280 more victims of communism. But it almost felt like a Hollywood movie screening with 25 00:02:09,039 --> 00:02:14,240 the red carpet and everybody showing up for the dedication, and so many people 26 00:02:14,240 --> 00:02:20,479 had been working so long to have a museum dedicated to all the victims of 27 00:02:20,520 --> 00:02:24,520 communism and to be able to teach about this very important subject and raise awareness 28 00:02:24,599 --> 00:02:30,240 about it. So we have had thousands of people come through the doors, 29 00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:36,080 and they've been all different generations, all different types, from all over the 30 00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:40,759 world. So everything from the first group that came through was as for a 31 00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:46,400 group tour was from a charter school in DC seventh and eighth graders, but 32 00:02:46,479 --> 00:02:52,000 we've also had ambassadors and dignitaries from various governments, and then you know everybody 33 00:02:52,039 --> 00:02:55,919 that you can think of in between. So I suppose in terms of moving 34 00:02:55,960 --> 00:03:00,319 me, so many of the times that I've gone through the museum with people 35 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:07,680 who actually fought communism got away from communism, those are the ones that we 36 00:03:07,039 --> 00:03:10,439 have to capture all those stories. But they talk about it and they say 37 00:03:10,439 --> 00:03:15,759 how important it is that we have the museum, And then I'm edified by 38 00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:19,240 so many people being educated about a topic that we should all know about but 39 00:03:19,319 --> 00:03:23,360 so few do. And then if you want to know a little bit about 40 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:28,319 the museum in general, I can say that. But I guess the big 41 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:32,520 takeaway is that we've had thousands come through the door, and we need millions 42 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:37,599 even more than that, but millions to come through the doors, and so 43 00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:43,360 many people are learning two of the big figures that we want everybody to understand, 44 00:03:43,439 --> 00:03:47,520 which is more than one hundred million people have been killed by communist regimes 45 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:53,639 and more than one point five billion people still unfortunately have to live under communist 46 00:03:53,719 --> 00:03:58,879 regimes. Yeah, and I want to really dive into that, because I'm 47 00:03:58,879 --> 00:04:02,280 scus how you go about collecting for a museum like this. But a good 48 00:04:02,319 --> 00:04:05,800 transition into that conversation is probably if you could talk about the work that the 49 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:11,719 foundation itself does, a little bit about its background and how the museum basically 50 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:18,879 came about. Absolutely the victims of Communism. Memorial Foundation has a very interesting 51 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:28,800 and in today's times, encouraging beginning because it was authorized by are you ready 52 00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:33,639 for this? A unanimous act of Congress And I'm not joking. I am 53 00:04:33,680 --> 00:04:39,920 lading right now, but I'm not joking. So that was in nineteen ninety 54 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:46,959 three, and there was a sense that even though the wall had fallen, 55 00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:49,439 the Berlin Wall had fallen, and by that point the Soviet Union had collapsed, 56 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:55,519 that a lot of Americans and indeed people around the world, we're not 57 00:04:55,639 --> 00:05:00,680 remembering, both those that now we're liberated in Eastern and Central Europe, but 58 00:05:00,839 --> 00:05:10,399 also those who were still under communism. And so there was a this authorization 59 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:16,959 for an organization that would educate about the history, the ideology, and the 60 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:21,560 legacy of communism. So that and this was part of the language. I 61 00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:26,839 may be paraphrasing a little bit, but so that you wouldn't have another holocaust 62 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:30,720 of this type. That people knew more about the Holocaust in World War Two, 63 00:05:31,959 --> 00:05:35,879 but that they needed to understand that there was this communist holocaust as well. 64 00:05:36,279 --> 00:05:41,360 And then President Bill Clinton signed it into law at the end of nineteen 65 00:05:41,439 --> 00:05:45,800 ninety three. And for the first fifteen years of its existence, BOC was 66 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:51,519 very focused on building a memorial to all of the victims of communism, and 67 00:05:51,560 --> 00:06:00,600 that's on Federal parkland at New Jersey and Massachusetts Avenue over near kind of near 68 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:04,480 Union Station, across from Georgetown's Law School for those who are local and know 69 00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:10,959 the area. And the part of the legislation said there would also be programming 70 00:06:10,959 --> 00:06:15,079 to educate, and that you know in a museum was always part of it. 71 00:06:15,639 --> 00:06:21,240 So in the next fifteen years of VOC's existence, it was building various 72 00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:29,040 educational programming, doing research, and then trying to figure out how do we 73 00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:32,240 do a museum. And when I came on the board five or six years 74 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:39,279 ago, there was talk of trying to do at least a smaller museum, 75 00:06:39,319 --> 00:06:44,279 because you have to raise in today's dollars to do something as big as what 76 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:46,759 the Holocaust Museum, which is, you know, we were taking inspiration from 77 00:06:46,759 --> 00:06:51,720 that would be you'd probably need a half billion or more dollars, and that 78 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:58,279 just wasn't going to happen at this point. So we decided to scale back 79 00:06:59,399 --> 00:07:06,800 a bit in size, and so our museum is in the McPherson Square in 80 00:07:06,879 --> 00:07:13,279 a beautiful historic boz Art building that some people, again who are local might 81 00:07:13,279 --> 00:07:16,759 remember as the Price Waterhouse Cooper building, one of their buildings around town. 82 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:30,839 And for VOC, very interestingly, it was a previous location for the Mine 83 00:07:30,839 --> 00:07:34,319 Workers Association, so that was something that they were anti communists, it was 84 00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:38,839 associated, you know, it was appropriate that VOC would end up with its 85 00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:44,240 museum in this location. And so we decided, okay, we'll do this 86 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:47,920 what we call our jewel Box Museum, and it's great. It tells the 87 00:07:47,920 --> 00:07:54,319 whole story. There are many more details, many more individual stories within it, 88 00:07:54,360 --> 00:07:59,680 but we cover everything, all the victims of communism in three permanent galleries, 89 00:08:00,639 --> 00:08:05,079 and then we have a gulag Art collection, we have a cast of 90 00:08:05,079 --> 00:08:11,879 the memorial, and we have some other small collections. We have artifacts of 91 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:16,560 course in the main galleries, and then we're very fortunate to have space for 92 00:08:16,639 --> 00:08:26,120 our visiting exhibit gallery and that is a large room where we have rotating temporary 93 00:08:26,160 --> 00:08:31,279 exhibits, and the current one that just opened very recently that we invite people 94 00:08:31,319 --> 00:08:37,960 to come see is on the one and only amazing dissident playwright and then president 95 00:08:39,039 --> 00:08:46,360 of a free Czechoslovakia and then Czech Republic, Voklov Hovel. This is it's 96 00:08:46,399 --> 00:08:52,720 such recent history. I mean, it seems like older history because in some 97 00:08:52,759 --> 00:08:56,320 sense it's like the technology has advanced, so black and white pictures in some 98 00:08:56,399 --> 00:09:01,879 ways feel very old twas one. This is very much real current history to 99 00:09:01,919 --> 00:09:05,879 people who are alive and lived through it and live with the literal scars metaphorical 100 00:09:05,919 --> 00:09:11,840 scars every single day. So that's a very interesting task. Um. I 101 00:09:11,879 --> 00:09:18,679 feel like for curators when you have the living hist try in front of you, 102 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:22,159 could you speak a little bit to what it's like, um, trying 103 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:26,279 to memorialize this, this history as the people who live through it are. 104 00:09:26,399 --> 00:09:31,639 In some cases, um, you know, there are generations who are I'm 105 00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:35,240 trying to put this in a in a gentle way, but are aging out 106 00:09:35,279 --> 00:09:41,279 of you know, our abilities to interface with them directly. And in other 107 00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:45,519 cases it's it's probably very fresh and raw for some people who are are still 108 00:09:45,559 --> 00:09:52,159 you know, I'm thinking of people who fled Vietnam or Cambodia. It's probably 109 00:09:52,159 --> 00:09:56,240 still very emotional for many people. Emily, you put your finger on several 110 00:09:56,279 --> 00:10:00,279 things that we've dealt with. So overall at the museum, our project is 111 00:10:00,759 --> 00:10:07,440 telling the story of over one hundred years. We mentioned some salient facts that 112 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:13,240 people need to understand from the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, but we really 113 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:18,200 pick up with the Bullshevik Revolution in nineteen seventeen. When did the victims first 114 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:24,360 get created? So to speak? And so you're telling history that way, 115 00:10:24,440 --> 00:10:28,120 and a lot of it may seem ancient to young people, but it's it's 116 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:31,759 really modern history. That's the modern era, and you're wrapped up with World 117 00:10:31,759 --> 00:10:35,200 War one, world War two. You know, Communism benefits from wars, 118 00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:41,360 it takes advantage of wars. And then you've got, as you said, 119 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:46,960 this living history. And I use that expression with groups when i'm I use 120 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:50,279 it my teaching too, but I use it to explain to people that it 121 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:54,840 is very raw. And one story that immediately comes to mind is I was 122 00:10:54,879 --> 00:11:01,240 giving a tour of the museum to some I don't even remember who the dignitary 123 00:11:01,399 --> 00:11:05,399 was right. And a gentleman comes up to me and he says, are 124 00:11:05,399 --> 00:11:09,039 you connected to this museum? And I said yes, and I said I'm 125 00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:13,320 chairman of the board. And he starts crying and he says, I escaped 126 00:11:13,519 --> 00:11:16,039 Romania. And this is a man, you know, he looked like he 127 00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:20,600 was maybe seventy something and he had a grown another man with him, fully 128 00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:24,200 grown, and he says, this is my son. And I've never talked 129 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:28,759 about any of this with him. And thank you for making this museum so 130 00:11:28,799 --> 00:11:33,240 that you're educating future generations, but also that I can talk with my own 131 00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:39,159 family members about my experience. And it very much struck me like the Gis 132 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:43,080 who came back from World War Two and then were so stoic and didn't talk 133 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:50,960 about their experiences, or about people who either people who were persecuted by the 134 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:54,879 communists in Vietnam and got away a boat people, or again the American vets 135 00:11:54,919 --> 00:11:58,799 who came back and didn't talk about it. And there's all of that wrapped 136 00:11:58,879 --> 00:12:03,960 up in each and every story of somebody who got away from communism too. 137 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:07,879 So it is very raw, it is very real, and that's part of 138 00:12:07,879 --> 00:12:13,799 the reason we have not only the museum, But VOC also has a Witness 139 00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:18,720 project, and so in that we make many documentaries. You know, each 140 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:22,360 one is a story about somebody, so it comes alive, and especially for 141 00:12:22,360 --> 00:12:28,480 people who have no direct connection, they might understand more about how this this 142 00:12:28,519 --> 00:12:33,320 has affected such big numbers, but that all of that represents each individual that 143 00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:41,000 was affected by communism adversely, And I can only imagine the encounters you've had 144 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:46,120 with people like the Settleman from Romania over the years. Are there any that 145 00:12:46,279 --> 00:12:52,879 stand out in your mind? And I'm thinking particularly with the the appreciation or 146 00:12:52,960 --> 00:13:00,399 the angle of you know, not having this history recognized in so many different 147 00:13:00,639 --> 00:13:09,919 spheres of you know, academic studying, of media attention. People must acknowledge 148 00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:13,799 that when they when they share their stories with you, all they do and 149 00:13:13,799 --> 00:13:18,519 that's why a lot of them say thank you first. And I'm always struck 150 00:13:18,559 --> 00:13:24,679 by that that they we are the only museum for all of the victims of 151 00:13:24,759 --> 00:13:30,559 communism. We're the only organization for all of the victims of communism in the 152 00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:35,840 world. Now at some point there's in the Baltics they're working toward a museum 153 00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:41,720 where they'll remember all of the victims of totalitarianism. So they're you know, 154 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:46,320 raising money to do something that will be very important there in a place where 155 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:50,840 people have were victimized by both Nazism and communism. But this is you know, 156 00:13:50,879 --> 00:13:54,200 we're still going to be unique for what we do, and so the 157 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:58,240 first thing that we hear from people is thank you. And then especially when 158 00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:05,879 I'm walking through or talking with people that got away from the Soviet Union or 159 00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:09,440 the People's Republic of China from the you know, the Chinese Communist Party, 160 00:14:09,759 --> 00:14:13,559 they'll talk about how academics get so many things wrong. They get the numbers 161 00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:16,960 wrong, they get the experiences wrong, they just don't understand what it was 162 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:20,480 like to be on the inside. We get a lot of feedback like that, 163 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:26,360 so they're very appreciative that VOC is trying to put together all of the 164 00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:31,879 real data but also collecting the stories and adding you know, flesh to the 165 00:14:31,879 --> 00:14:37,840 bone, so to speak, so that so that rising generations especially will understand, 166 00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:41,679 I mean, we have remedial education to do. But that that people 167 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:46,080 will say, I don't want this right, I don't understand why it existed, 168 00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:48,840 I don't see why it still exists, and I don't want it, 169 00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:52,720 and I'm going to do something to oppose it. So it's it's a combination 170 00:14:52,799 --> 00:14:56,759 of things there. But I have a lot of conversations not only with fellow 171 00:14:56,759 --> 00:15:03,320 academics but with others about why why this one is just never understood quite as 172 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:07,840 well, and that especially in America, we've done a good job. You 173 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:15,320 can always do better about educating about the Holocaust and what the Nazis did, 174 00:15:15,879 --> 00:15:20,480 but that there's there's somehow a double standard, that that remains a bit. 175 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:26,159 It's better than it was, but that remains about teaching about about communism and 176 00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:30,799 what it's done over and over wherever it goes for over a hundred years now. 177 00:15:31,799 --> 00:15:35,799 It's also so fascinating how much we don't know, but also how much 178 00:15:35,799 --> 00:15:39,120 we are continuing to learn. I mean, I can think of nothing harder 179 00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:45,240 than trying to study the evils of regimes that were intentionally, in so many 180 00:15:45,279 --> 00:15:50,279 cases obfuscating there their conduct. And that means um I mean, I can 181 00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:54,200 remember what was it in the nineties when a lot of the Soviet archives um 182 00:15:54,679 --> 00:15:58,519 and and Stan Evans wrote his wonderful book the theme is freedom, based on 183 00:15:58,759 --> 00:16:03,639 a lot of information that had recently come out, and that's not that long 184 00:16:03,679 --> 00:16:06,200 ago. And there's more stuff that we're going to learn. You know, 185 00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:08,440 one hundred years from now we'll learn so much more. UM. But but 186 00:16:08,519 --> 00:16:14,919 what is it like actually even just to try and UM, to try and 187 00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:23,039 uh, let's see to capture the the scope and the with with a sense 188 00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:29,559 of comprehensiveness, the evils that were done, UM in the name of communism 189 00:16:29,679 --> 00:16:33,159 in the last few hundred years or so. It cannot be an easy process. 190 00:16:33,879 --> 00:16:37,720 No, it's not. It's it's not. And I will give you 191 00:16:37,759 --> 00:16:41,200 something concrete here. So when we were doing the museum, UH, I 192 00:16:41,279 --> 00:16:45,759 was told, okay, you can have these very we have space. You 193 00:16:45,759 --> 00:16:49,039 know, we work with design teams. And the design teams we were working 194 00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:55,519 with, UM they had worked on on projects with the the Holocaust Museum, 195 00:16:56,080 --> 00:17:00,240 the World War Two Museum in New Orleans, the Spy Museum for the Redo, 196 00:17:00,879 --> 00:17:04,160 the normand Museum over in France. I mean, you know people who 197 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:07,680 really did this. And then they said, well, this is a lovely 198 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:11,680 space. It is small, we'll come up with a fabulous design. You're 199 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:15,880 working on the content for it. You've got to keep cutting. And so 200 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:22,200 we had to tell the story in under four thousand words. For the main 201 00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:27,119 narrative going through with the basic history and the main galleries. It was that 202 00:17:27,319 --> 00:17:33,160 challenging. And Stan Evans was a master at editing, but that would have 203 00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:37,519 been challenging even for him. So I had to work very hard to cut, 204 00:17:37,519 --> 00:17:40,680 cut, cut, and I would be writing, writing, writing, 205 00:17:40,759 --> 00:17:44,039 and working with other academics, but it was, you know, I was 206 00:17:44,079 --> 00:17:48,519 the main person, and so it was very challenging, and I had to 207 00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:52,559 keep bringing it back to Okay, enough history about communism overall, so that 208 00:17:52,599 --> 00:17:56,839 people understand why there were victims and who these victims were in our So that 209 00:17:56,920 --> 00:18:02,279 was that part. And then when you talk about cataloging it and making it 210 00:18:03,279 --> 00:18:07,480 accurate. Uh so, so think about the Soviet experience. Those archives opened 211 00:18:07,559 --> 00:18:11,559 and then some of them closed again. Under this is the bad legacy piece. 212 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:17,279 When you when a country that had been communists doesn't doesn't reckon with it 213 00:18:17,279 --> 00:18:22,160 and doesn't become a full functional, working democracy like what Russia's dealing with. 214 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:26,799 It's not it's not you know, it's still post communists, but what is 215 00:18:26,839 --> 00:18:29,519 it right? And and a lot of people will say, and I have 216 00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:33,000 argued this, and I think there's plenty of evidence there's there's still too much 217 00:18:33,039 --> 00:18:37,200 of the old Soviet dregs in it, right and so and so there was 218 00:18:37,599 --> 00:18:45,160 an organization called Memorial who's done very important work over the years in Russia, 219 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:48,480 and Putin and his government shut them down. And they didn't shut them down 220 00:18:48,759 --> 00:18:52,400 just just you know, like ten years ago or something, it was, 221 00:18:52,440 --> 00:18:56,359 it was pretty recent. And so that's an organization that was trying to catalog 222 00:18:56,920 --> 00:19:02,680 all of the Soviet crimes of communism. And it got eliminated, it got 223 00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:06,039 wiped out. And then if people think, oh, okay, well that's 224 00:19:06,039 --> 00:19:11,319 only Putin um, then dealing with it in a in a country that's still 225 00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:18,079 fully communists. So think about about China. In in the PRCU, some 226 00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:22,559 archives opened and then the CCP, the Chinese Communist Party, realized, oh, 227 00:19:22,599 --> 00:19:25,200 we shouldn't have opened those. They'd closed them again. Then certain ones 228 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:29,759 would open um. Some academics have gotten in sideways by looking at you know, 229 00:19:29,759 --> 00:19:33,240 like regional records. They're all different ways that scholars who are excellent detectives 230 00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:41,200 as well do this. And one of the best scholars on China is Frank 231 00:19:41,279 --> 00:19:45,359 Decater and a lot of his work has been on communist China, and I 232 00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:52,200 commend what people call his trilogy on Communist China, and then also his newest 233 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:56,599 book, which is on China since Mao. All of these are very important 234 00:19:56,599 --> 00:20:02,480 books. He's excellent um and he was in Hong Kong for a long time 235 00:20:02,519 --> 00:20:07,279 as an academic. He's originally Dutch, so's he's not Chinese. He has 236 00:20:07,279 --> 00:20:10,759 had to leave Hong Kong. It's part of the reason I can talk about 237 00:20:10,799 --> 00:20:15,160 his story now because he's out. And he was trying to put together and 238 00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:19,079 often did an accurate record, and he would cross reference and he would find 239 00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:25,440 you know, this this example here, that that document there, that archive 240 00:20:25,519 --> 00:20:29,319 that opened and closed, but some other reference to it over here. This 241 00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:33,799 is how he has to do his scholarship. And so he's put together what 242 00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:40,000 seems to be some of the most accurate information about about the history of communist 243 00:20:40,079 --> 00:20:45,319 China and the victims that have been created. And and he says, he 244 00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:48,839 says, well, the numbers only get revised upward, right, this is 245 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:52,960 something we have found. He will only give the numbers he can he can 246 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:56,880 find, but it's not as if they ever go down. So anybody who 247 00:20:56,920 --> 00:20:59,079 tells you, oh, they couldn't have killed that many, or they couldn't 248 00:20:59,079 --> 00:21:02,559 have imprisoned that many, or they can have whatever you can tell them. 249 00:21:02,559 --> 00:21:06,200 Well, here are the numbers that scholars say now and then and then it's 250 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:08,359 only going to go up when we have more information. And you made reference 251 00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:11,759 to one hundred years from now, when you know, if we could get 252 00:21:11,759 --> 00:21:14,440 in the time machine, go ahead, look at what the archives then that 253 00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:22,319 are open. The numbers will only be higher. That is incredibly dark to 254 00:21:22,359 --> 00:21:26,920 think about, but not surprising at all. Um, how do you deal 255 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:30,920 with the issue of definitions? I imagine this is something that it may infect 256 00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:37,039 be very easy and be very clear to a group like um. You guys, 257 00:21:37,079 --> 00:21:40,160 you know, because you're you're working on this all the time, but 258 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:45,440 you know, it's sort of plagues academics and many circles you and the left 259 00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:48,720 loves to say, you know, their favorite line, true communism has never 260 00:21:48,759 --> 00:21:52,960 been tried, True Marxism, true Leninism has never actually been tried. But 261 00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:56,279 from your perspective, how do you deal with definitions? How do you deal 262 00:21:56,319 --> 00:22:02,119 with um, you know, determining what warrants inclusion? Um, you know 263 00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:07,319 when you're when you're seeking to memorialize the victims of communism, right right? 264 00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:14,640 So? Uh, we follow many good academics, including the late Richard Pipes, 265 00:22:14,799 --> 00:22:18,400 historian of all things Soviet and Russian, and he said it wasn't a 266 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:23,319 good theory, you know, it just was not to start with. And 267 00:22:23,559 --> 00:22:30,400 so I've studied this subject for I mean, I started studying it in graduate 268 00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:33,240 school, so it's many years ago now. And I think that, um, 269 00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:37,599 if you, if you studied long enough on this, you've looked at 270 00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:42,279 it long enough. Even if you grant certain things like like Mark Son a 271 00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:45,200 day that he was in a in a good mood, apparently he was not 272 00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:48,400 a nice guy. You and I would not have wanted to hang out with 273 00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:52,279 him, right, uh. And and he was a bit of a I 274 00:22:52,279 --> 00:22:55,480 mean, you know, he took advantage of his in today's parlance, would 275 00:22:55,480 --> 00:23:00,839 call him his his BFF, his his friend and collaborator angles, who then 276 00:23:00,839 --> 00:23:03,160 worshiped him in return. I mean, all this kind of stuff. But 277 00:23:03,279 --> 00:23:06,200 not a nice guy. But if we were catching him on one of his 278 00:23:06,279 --> 00:23:08,440 good days, and we were acknowledging that he was looking at some things in 279 00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:12,400 the nineteenth century that we're not always fair, right, and we give him 280 00:23:12,519 --> 00:23:17,680 everything we can give him, then we look at what he's actually talking about. 281 00:23:17,839 --> 00:23:22,599 And some of these these people who say Marxism. Communism just hasn't been 282 00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:26,799 tried. The theory, the theory hasn't been implemented, right, you know, 283 00:23:26,839 --> 00:23:30,000 you look at what Marx talked about doing, and at times he was 284 00:23:30,039 --> 00:23:33,480 more vague, especially in things like the Communist Manifesto. He gets more concrete 285 00:23:33,599 --> 00:23:38,319 later in things like dust copy tall but noneless. You look at what he's 286 00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:45,799 talking about doing, abolishing things that are what all of our civilization, you 287 00:23:45,839 --> 00:23:51,880 know, Western civilization, Judeo Christian, any other revealed religion. You know, 288 00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:59,400 everything is based on the understanding of the individual, the understanding of what 289 00:24:00,079 --> 00:24:03,240 government is for the understanding of rights. I mean, all the basics that 290 00:24:03,279 --> 00:24:12,200 people learn in Civics class in school, and all of it is gone. 291 00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:21,000 All of it is gone because the entire premise of communism and what Mark started 292 00:24:21,039 --> 00:24:25,000 and all of them, all of his successors agreed with, was that the 293 00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:29,799 party would would be in charge, the state would be in charge, and 294 00:24:29,799 --> 00:24:33,880 eventually at the you know, the state's supposed to wither away. But but 295 00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:40,440 socialism is the next highest stage before you get to communism, and anything and 296 00:24:40,519 --> 00:24:44,720 everything is permitted in order to get there. So it means, you know, 297 00:24:44,759 --> 00:24:48,599 you see in Marks he writes, you know violence will be necessary, 298 00:24:48,799 --> 00:24:56,519 right, It's all there at the beginning. He is really a revolutionary activist 299 00:24:56,839 --> 00:25:00,319 from the get go. And after his death Angle talks about that. He 300 00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:03,279 says, this is what you know. The first thing you need to understand 301 00:25:03,799 --> 00:25:10,440 about Marx was at um and you have to understand that he's denying everything you 302 00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:18,519 know, the person um and property and family and religion, all what what 303 00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:22,000 you know, he would have called the the Olds essentially wanted to get rid 304 00:25:22,039 --> 00:25:26,079 of everything um that were that were based on So people don't you know, 305 00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:27,480 they'll think, oh, it was merely an economic theory, and they don't 306 00:25:27,599 --> 00:25:33,000 think through what all of that means. So all of it's there. You 307 00:25:33,039 --> 00:25:37,640 know, you end up with the one party dictatorship. Um. You end 308 00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:42,640 up with somebody controlling everything, trying to control everything including thoughts UM. And 309 00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:48,240 and then you have lenin come along and he studies Marks so very deeply. 310 00:25:48,559 --> 00:25:55,319 This is why we often refer to Marxist Leninist and he uh, he becomes 311 00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:59,279 an expert on Marx and he amplifies the part. Yeah, you know, 312 00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:02,480 violence is to be necessary and I'm going to do whatever it takes, and 313 00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:03,920 we're going to do a coup, and we're going to take over, and 314 00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:07,799 we're going to take communism on the road, and we're going to try to 315 00:26:07,079 --> 00:26:10,720 you know, encourage it in these other countries, which is what he does 316 00:26:10,759 --> 00:26:12,680 through the common term. But also we're gonna, we're gonna literally go on 317 00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:18,000 the road and they try to take you know, Poland and other places after 318 00:26:18,039 --> 00:26:22,160 World War One, and they're they're they're thrown back, Thank goodness. I 319 00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:26,599 mean, the interwar period could be completely different in terms of its history. 320 00:26:26,039 --> 00:26:33,480 And so all of that is both ideology and history that people need to understand, 321 00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:37,039 and they don't. And then and then all of the successors nobody, 322 00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:41,119 you know, none of these experiments, so to speak, in communism have 323 00:26:41,279 --> 00:26:45,799 brought what they said they were going to bring. All they brought is misery, 324 00:26:45,839 --> 00:26:52,000 destruction, death, imprisonment, unjust you know, unjust persecution, slavery 325 00:26:52,279 --> 00:26:57,880 essentially, and it's and it's truly the most destructive ideology in human history. 326 00:26:59,279 --> 00:27:07,960 And I'm just struck by how eerily similar some current headlines are two moments in 327 00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:12,400 the history of the West, the United States battle against communist regimes, for 328 00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:18,559 instance, just this week, we know that she didn't ping from obviously from 329 00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:23,519 China has been meeting with Honduras. We know that our intelligence community believes they're 330 00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:30,880 spying from Cuba, and it feels similar to the Soviet Union in so many 331 00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:37,000 respects. So we wanted to ask, basically, are there are there mistakes 332 00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:42,079 that you see the United States making again that that could embolden you know, 333 00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:47,960 the Shedim Pang likes to talk about socialism with Chinese characteristics, which is very 334 00:27:48,279 --> 00:27:52,880 very much inspired by the communist regimes of the past, by Mao and who 335 00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:57,039 is obviously very influenced by Marx. Are there mistakes the West is making now 336 00:27:57,079 --> 00:28:03,119 that will endanger the lives of people in countries that are very much at risk 337 00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:08,759 of falling deep into the throes of communist oppression and violence. You're you're putting 338 00:28:08,759 --> 00:28:12,680 your finger on again why it's so important for Americans to know the history right, 339 00:28:14,279 --> 00:28:18,160 because you can repeat mistakes and you have to understand the principles in the 340 00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:22,960 history, so then you can act in the current circumstances you are in well, 341 00:28:23,079 --> 00:28:26,960 right, you can choose well act well. All of that. We 342 00:28:26,079 --> 00:28:29,480 you know, we teach prudence to our students, right, this is what 343 00:28:29,519 --> 00:28:33,799 it means. So for China, you know, a lot of people will 344 00:28:33,839 --> 00:28:38,720 just go to you can't learn anything from the past because the economies are so 345 00:28:38,759 --> 00:28:42,640 wrapped up with each other and it's different. So there are some things that 346 00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:49,440 are different from the Soviet challenge and therefore from the Cold War with the Soviet 347 00:28:49,519 --> 00:28:55,079 Union. But that said, there are so many things that can be taken 348 00:28:55,400 --> 00:29:03,839 from the experience of the West opposing the Soviet led communism in the Cold War. 349 00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:07,440 And look at what's going on with China. I will tell students, 350 00:29:07,599 --> 00:29:11,240 you know, right now, this is this is your world that you're going 351 00:29:11,279 --> 00:29:15,119 to graduate or you know, go to grad school and then graduate from and 352 00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:22,640 go out into and right now, the Chinese Communist Party is shaping what the 353 00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:26,279 world looks like that you're going to have to live in and work in and 354 00:29:26,359 --> 00:29:29,000 raise your families in, right And we don't want that, I mean, 355 00:29:29,039 --> 00:29:33,200 no Americans should want that. So so what do you look at I think, 356 00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:37,759 and I'm not being hageographic here, I think that Ronald Reagan had a 357 00:29:37,799 --> 00:29:42,039 really good strategy. So he took so many things from from containment, the 358 00:29:42,119 --> 00:29:48,759 strategy of containment and that that originated under President Harry Truman, and in the 359 00:29:48,799 --> 00:29:52,200 circumstances of the nineteen you know, mid nineteen forties to early nineteen fifties, 360 00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:59,480 Truman set up something that worked really well and that presidents in between Truman and 361 00:29:59,559 --> 00:30:03,400 Reagan and sometimes followed, sometimes didn't. And then it went off the rails 362 00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:08,319 with detant. But Reagan looked at it and he said, okay, And 363 00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:12,880 now he looked at the circumstances of the eighties when he was coming in as 364 00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:15,160 president, and he said, what am I going to do? What am 365 00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:18,960 I going to keep from that? What am I going to accelerate? What 366 00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:21,519 am I going to do more of? What am I going to add? 367 00:30:22,559 --> 00:30:29,920 And that's what he did with his approach that truly helped what people were doing 368 00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:34,440 on the inside behind the Iron curtain so that you could have those amazing results 369 00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:41,720 of November nineteen eighty nine through Christmas time nineteen ninety one. So right now 370 00:30:41,759 --> 00:30:45,480 we need the same kind of strategy, and that would mean looking at all 371 00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:48,440 the different you know buckets, so to speak. What do we need to 372 00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:52,559 do politically and diplomatically, What do we need to do economically? What do 373 00:30:52,599 --> 00:30:56,039 we need to do strategically and militarily? What do we need to do culturally? 374 00:30:56,039 --> 00:30:57,680 What do we need to do with our allies, what do you know 375 00:30:57,839 --> 00:31:04,799 all the different things UM? And and then do that with respect to to 376 00:31:04,839 --> 00:31:11,160 the CCP in China, And I don't think and there's so many people inside 377 00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:18,480 China who don't want UM the Communist Party to prevail, who don't want Jijiangping 378 00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:23,079 to achieve his goal right, and how do we help them? UM? 379 00:31:23,119 --> 00:31:26,920 And part of that is to keep educating about about what's going on there, 380 00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:32,240 and VOC does that all the time. UM. And then also to see 381 00:31:32,279 --> 00:31:34,119 that China is taking it on the road and we want to stop that where 382 00:31:34,119 --> 00:31:40,880 we can. So VOC has been very act upon on not only China, 383 00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:45,200 and we have our our Jingjiang UM files. I commend that to people to 384 00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:51,680 go look up on our website, but also on China. Working with Cuba, 385 00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:56,720 we've been doing some work on that UM and we've been exposing on Cuba 386 00:31:56,759 --> 00:32:00,759 because that's in our hemisphere. UM. There's this horrible, you know, 387 00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:04,359 prison system that people don't even know about. They'll they'll think, well, 388 00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:07,200 Castro's dead, is Cuba is still even a problem. That's the kind of 389 00:32:07,279 --> 00:32:13,079 question I get. And people don't realize that there there's a nasty UM partnership 390 00:32:13,119 --> 00:32:16,680 and collaboration going on with like China and Cuba, and then you throw in 391 00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:21,599 the legacy problem from Russia and by the time you turn around it, you 392 00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:23,599 know, it looks pretty twentieth century, doesn't it. I mean, and 393 00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:28,079 that we should still take some of what we learned from that experience and apply 394 00:32:28,119 --> 00:32:35,640 it to now. Absolutely, is there anything that you guys have coming up 395 00:32:35,759 --> 00:32:39,720 or any exhibits, um you particularly think folks will be interested in as you 396 00:32:39,799 --> 00:32:45,720 mark this one year anniversary. Incredible and it's such a such an accessible and 397 00:32:45,839 --> 00:32:51,759 beautiful part of the nation's capital here. Um, anything you guys have coming 398 00:32:51,839 --> 00:32:54,759 up or anything you you want to leave people with as they ponder whether or 399 00:32:54,799 --> 00:32:59,720 not they can they can make this trip right. So, so I mentioned 400 00:32:59,759 --> 00:33:02,839 we have a new visiting exhibit, so for those who are making their summer 401 00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:10,680 plans, this exhibit on Vaklab hobbl It's a unique exhibit. We partnered with 402 00:33:12,079 --> 00:33:20,519 the Vakl Hovel Library over in Prague, so you will understand who Hovel is. 403 00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:22,319 And for a lot of people they don't. You know, he's not 404 00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:25,000 a household named to them. Even if you know for certain people they're like, 405 00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:27,920 oh, I remember Black Lab Hobble, but as we know, there 406 00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:30,079 are a lot of people who don't, so they'll learn who he was, 407 00:33:30,279 --> 00:33:37,720 what he did. There are not only panels in the exhibit explaining things, 408 00:33:37,839 --> 00:33:42,759 having key quotes from him and you know, various pivot points in his life 409 00:33:43,119 --> 00:33:49,839 and how he fought totalitarianism and communism, but also there are artifacts, there 410 00:33:49,839 --> 00:33:54,720 are videos, so it's a very complete exhibit. They'll learn more about some 411 00:33:54,799 --> 00:33:59,880 of the key dates, including the Prague Spring in nineteen sixty eight and the 412 00:34:00,079 --> 00:34:06,000 Velvet Revolution in nineteen eighty nine. And then that one will finish up in 413 00:34:06,039 --> 00:34:10,320 September, so if some people are already thinking ahead to the fall and trips 414 00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:14,960 to Washington or locals who can't, you know, make it. This summer 415 00:34:15,039 --> 00:34:22,320 we will have our next visiting exhibit will be on the Holladmur and this one 416 00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:30,760 we're partnering with a Ukrainian consortium and we are now in the ninetieth anniversaries of 417 00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:37,440 the worst of the Halidmur and this is something we treat the Hollidmur as we 418 00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:42,320 do Hobble in the main galleries, the permanent galleries of the museum, but 419 00:34:42,559 --> 00:34:45,000 for the Holidamor, it's one panel rights all, that's all we have the 420 00:34:45,039 --> 00:34:50,039 space for. So this will be a whole room that is an exhibit on 421 00:34:50,079 --> 00:34:54,920 the Hollidimur. And people didn't know about this, and then Ukraine happened. 422 00:34:55,000 --> 00:35:00,800 Russia invaded Ukraine, and now we've noticed people coming through the museum. They'll 423 00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:04,519 say, oh, my gosh, that's right, the Russians when they were 424 00:35:04,559 --> 00:35:07,639 Soviets, they did something bad to Ukraine before, and we'll say, yes, 425 00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:12,360 come learn about it. So this, this visiting exhibit in the fall, 426 00:35:12,679 --> 00:35:16,639 which will run into I think January will be next year, will be 427 00:35:16,679 --> 00:35:22,639 an opportunity for people to learn more. We have events all the time, 428 00:35:22,679 --> 00:35:27,960 so I encourage people to go to our website to learn about upcoming events. 429 00:35:28,519 --> 00:35:35,599 And we have one just this Friday that Dan Mahoney, who is an amazing 430 00:35:35,599 --> 00:35:40,039 professor and scholar on communism, I mean on many things, but on communism. 431 00:35:40,039 --> 00:35:46,119 He's written and researched at length on Alexander soul Janetsen. But he has 432 00:35:46,199 --> 00:35:52,800 the long introduction for a brand new edition of Cardinal Menzetti's memoirs. It'll be 433 00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:55,960 the first time that they're back in print. This was somebody who was a 434 00:35:57,039 --> 00:36:01,599 hero in Hungary fighting the communist and so it'll be a new story to many 435 00:36:01,639 --> 00:36:08,679 people. And Professor Mahoney will be with us on Friday afternoon talking about this 436 00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:12,960 book and talking about Minzetti. So we have that kind of event. We 437 00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:16,639 have conferences. There's something I forget. I think it might even be next 438 00:36:16,679 --> 00:36:23,679 week on the Cuba torture going on the of the political prisoners, so people 439 00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:28,519 can go on the website and look that up. But that's just an example 440 00:36:28,559 --> 00:36:30,920 we had. We had a recent conference on totalitarianism, and if we were 441 00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:36,039 doing this podcast a couple weeks ago, I would have been telling people they 442 00:36:36,039 --> 00:36:39,320 have to be at that. And we did do earlier in the spring an 443 00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:45,920 amazing conference on the fortieth anniversary of Ronald Reagan's Evil Empire speech and what it 444 00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:50,679 all means, what it meant, and what it means. So do we 445 00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:55,320 do all sorts of different educational events, and they connect to the museum and 446 00:36:55,320 --> 00:37:01,880 then the research, the ongoing research, especially in in China and Latin America, 447 00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:05,039 but a lot of it, of course is Cuba. Sometimes, you 448 00:37:05,079 --> 00:37:07,119 know, we touch on Venezuela. Oh my gosh, I can't believe it. 449 00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:09,840 It sounds like like I'm in a time machine. You know, we 450 00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:14,440 talk about Nicaragua. You know, how can you believe that this stuff is 451 00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:19,559 going on on some level? But but please do go to the website and 452 00:37:19,639 --> 00:37:23,159 look at events because that's they're all educational. It's all connected to what VOC 453 00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:28,440 is an educational nonprofit and what it's trying to do. And then for those 454 00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:35,719 who are either teachers or parents with kids in school, please encourage your schools 455 00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:40,079 to send their you know, when they're doing their DC trip, whether they're 456 00:37:40,119 --> 00:37:45,519 local or not, to put the Victims of Communism Museum on their itinerary. 457 00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:50,519 And we've had many school groups come through. And if the if the visit 458 00:37:50,599 --> 00:37:55,000 is set up an advent, then you can have a lecture or meeting with 459 00:37:55,079 --> 00:38:00,320 somebody on staff who would be able to tell you know, the students age 460 00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:05,239 appropriately more. And then make sure that you ask to meet with a witness 461 00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:07,320 as well, because I think that's one of the most important things to do 462 00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:14,039 for any age, but especially for school groups, that they get to meet 463 00:38:14,079 --> 00:38:17,159 with somebody who can tell them firsthand here's what it was like to live under 464 00:38:17,159 --> 00:38:22,119 communism and share their experiences and say you don't want this, and I didn't 465 00:38:22,159 --> 00:38:25,679 want this, and all the opportunity costs that are involved too. Even if 466 00:38:25,679 --> 00:38:30,719 somebody wasn't actually killed directly by it, you know, they still suffered under 467 00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:35,960 it. And we want people to understand that again so that they remember remember 468 00:38:36,039 --> 00:38:38,559 us as one of our themes at the museum, but also so they say, 469 00:38:39,119 --> 00:38:43,880 you know, not here for example, and I want to make sure 470 00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:46,159 I'm fighting it wherever I go and whatever I do, you know, because 471 00:38:46,159 --> 00:38:51,679 people will end up in different in different careers, and they should know enough 472 00:38:51,679 --> 00:38:55,480 about this so that they can be at least educating others about it, if 473 00:38:55,599 --> 00:39:00,000 not, if not directly opposing it, and whatever they end up finding themselves. 474 00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:05,760 I was doing for jobs m absolutely. Elizabeth Spalding is the chairman of 475 00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:09,079 the board over the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation, the founding director of the 476 00:39:09,159 --> 00:39:15,440 museum, and a senior fellow at Pepperdine's School of Public Policy. Elizabeth, 477 00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:20,480 thank you so much. You're welcome. Emily got the museum and I look 478 00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:22,519 forward to you're getting there, right, You're gonna come and visit, and 479 00:39:22,679 --> 00:39:25,840 you're gonna come as you sent your interns. I think you told me right. 480 00:39:27,119 --> 00:39:30,239 Yes, we sent our interns from the National Journalism Center, and they 481 00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:36,000 did some some lovely reports folks can read on the museum. Everyone absolutely loved 482 00:39:36,039 --> 00:39:38,119 the opportunity. Everyone I've talked to has said that it is very powerful. 483 00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:43,480 So you guys are all doing great work. Thank you, Emily. Of 484 00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:47,039 course you've been listening to another edition of The Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Emily, 485 00:39:47,079 --> 00:39:50,679 just said Ski culture editor here at the Federalist. We'll be back soon. 486 00:39:51,480 --> 00:40:00,800 Until then, he lover's freedom and anxious before the front. I heard 487 00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:07,119 the fame voice a reason, and then it faded away.