WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.520 --> 00:00:07.879 Hudson River Radio dot com. It beats listening to nothing. Oh my godness, 2 00:00:07.919 --> 00:00:14.000 being Frank fright, where the only way to be is Frank. Hello 3 00:00:14.160 --> 00:00:18.559 everyone, and welcome to being Frank. We're the only way to be is 4 00:00:18.640 --> 00:00:21.600 Frank. I'm your host, Frank Leguono, and I'd like to thank you 5 00:00:21.640 --> 00:00:26.239 for joining us and what we like to call the Intelligent Conversation Podcast, where 6 00:00:26.280 --> 00:00:31.079 no conversation is out of bounds at all points of view are welcome. We 7 00:00:31.160 --> 00:00:35.479 are recording live to tape, as we call it, on the sixteenth of 8 00:00:35.560 --> 00:00:38.200 May. I'd like to give you the date so you have some context as 9 00:00:38.280 --> 00:00:42.960 when all this is happening. You know, we use the slogan intelligent conversation 10 00:00:43.079 --> 00:00:48.079 for this program because we intend to create the civil dialogue that is so sorely 11 00:00:48.159 --> 00:00:53.320 missing and too many of our personal interactions these days, especially when it comes 12 00:00:53.399 --> 00:00:59.240 to difficult topics, and none are more intense, difficult and divisive than the 13 00:00:59.280 --> 00:01:04.319 current situation in Gaza. It seems that everyone has an opinion that mostly condemns 14 00:01:04.599 --> 00:01:10.040 the actions of the other. Each has become so wounded for the other. 15 00:01:10.519 --> 00:01:15.519 Unfortunately, many believe the conflict will never be resolved. But I can't believe 16 00:01:15.560 --> 00:01:19.560 that. I won't believe that, and neither does my guest. I believe 17 00:01:19.599 --> 00:01:23.840 that reading his bio will serve as evidence of his qualified opinion on the matter. 18 00:01:23.640 --> 00:01:27.920 Born in the town of Nobilists in the occupied West Bank of historic Palestine 19 00:01:27.920 --> 00:01:33.200 in nineteen seventy, he graduated from high school at the end of the First 20 00:01:33.280 --> 00:01:38.480 Intifada, the uprising against occupation, and was encouraged to leave for Jordan to 21 00:01:38.519 --> 00:01:42.959 pursue his education in interior design, traveling to the USA in nineteen ninety to 22 00:01:44.000 --> 00:01:48.120 further his studies in architecture. He landed at the City College of New York 23 00:01:48.239 --> 00:01:53.200 and became active in social justice movements at that time. After earning his degree, 24 00:01:53.239 --> 00:01:57.840 he worked as an architect for ten years and then went on to become 25 00:01:57.879 --> 00:02:01.400 a furniture designer for another ten During this time, he earned a master's in 26 00:02:01.519 --> 00:02:07.640 education and became a college professor at Rockland Community College. Currently, he is 27 00:02:07.680 --> 00:02:12.520 a project manager for design and construction firm. Yoga, Sufhism, and non 28 00:02:12.639 --> 00:02:17.120 violent communication are an integral part of who he is. He believes that humanity 29 00:02:17.199 --> 00:02:23.879 is connected and we need to learn to live peacefully and respectfully together. Please 30 00:02:23.960 --> 00:02:30.599 welcome Kadir Hamid Kadir, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you, 31 00:02:30.639 --> 00:02:32.159 Frank, thank you for beautiful introduction. I don't know who you're talking 32 00:02:32.199 --> 00:02:36.360 about. It sounded a little bit like me. Well, I stole it 33 00:02:36.400 --> 00:02:38.360 from the byo you sent me. I'm not that creative a writer, although 34 00:02:38.360 --> 00:02:43.319 some of it was mine before that. Anyway, there's so much too unpack, 35 00:02:43.800 --> 00:02:46.560 and I think it's important that, as I said, even in the 36 00:02:46.599 --> 00:02:49.560 beginning, we like to give people a context of the date. There's breaking 37 00:02:49.599 --> 00:02:55.759 news that we'll discuss as Israel prepares to move further into rafa discussion that will 38 00:02:55.800 --> 00:03:00.759 take place later on. But in order to provide the context also for you 39 00:03:00.840 --> 00:03:04.919 as a guest, WHI tell us about your history and what you brought us, 40 00:03:05.159 --> 00:03:08.759 brought us together at this point, Yes, so as thank you for 41 00:03:08.800 --> 00:03:13.039 introducing me. In your bio you can have mentioned where I was born and 42 00:03:13.080 --> 00:03:16.439 how I landed in America. And I'm so grateful for being here for the 43 00:03:16.520 --> 00:03:23.159 last thirty five years. And it seems the subject we are about to discuss 44 00:03:23.240 --> 00:03:28.680 is so touchy. I have to introduce myself to the audience and explain who 45 00:03:28.680 --> 00:03:34.639 I am psychologically and spiritually. So I grew up in a mostly Muslim household. 46 00:03:34.719 --> 00:03:38.560 My father actually was an imam. He worked for the mosque, and 47 00:03:38.000 --> 00:03:44.400 the mosque where my father used to pray was part of a church piece of 48 00:03:44.479 --> 00:03:49.560 land, and that church in the eighteen hundreds felt that the neighborhood didn't have 49 00:03:49.639 --> 00:03:53.039 a mosque, so they gifted the local community a small piece of land to 50 00:03:53.080 --> 00:03:58.120 build a very small mosque. And that mosque is sharing the same wall with 51 00:03:58.199 --> 00:04:00.680 the Christian Church. So I grew up in that kind of world. At 52 00:04:00.719 --> 00:04:05.000 the same time, even though I grew up under occupation, My city of 53 00:04:05.080 --> 00:04:12.280 Nablus has a minority of Jews who've never left Palestine for the last four thousand 54 00:04:12.319 --> 00:04:17.360 years, and my teachers in math in middle school was a Jewish man who 55 00:04:18.079 --> 00:04:24.000 spoke perfect Arabic, and we knew he was not Muslim like us. We 56 00:04:24.079 --> 00:04:28.920 also had Christian classmates, but he was Jewish, and no one ever said 57 00:04:28.920 --> 00:04:33.439 a word to out him or separate him or say he's different in us. 58 00:04:33.480 --> 00:04:38.720 He was one of us, from our community. So I didn't grow up 59 00:04:38.759 --> 00:04:44.560 in a world where this Jewish Arab divide is that, even though it was 60 00:04:45.480 --> 00:04:48.879 still politically charged in my town. Let me jump in because I think it's 61 00:04:48.920 --> 00:04:55.639 important here if I might too, because you use again for context here and 62 00:04:55.680 --> 00:05:01.720 even in your bio, and you use words like occupation and historic Palestine. 63 00:05:01.959 --> 00:05:06.920 So those are things that I think Americans don't necessarily understand. And in our 64 00:05:08.240 --> 00:05:12.800 pre conversations and some of the material that you sent me, including a previous 65 00:05:12.879 --> 00:05:16.439 podcast, you mentioned about you know, even though within that kind of idyllic 66 00:05:16.959 --> 00:05:23.480 setup there was also the evidence of occupation, tanks, soldiers with guns. 67 00:05:23.720 --> 00:05:27.240 How did that affect you? At the same time, if I might thank 68 00:05:27.279 --> 00:05:32.680 you, I mean, from early on in my childhood, the occupation was 69 00:05:32.759 --> 00:05:39.800 already felt in our towns, in the West Bank and in Gaza, And 70 00:05:39.959 --> 00:05:43.600 as a child, no one ever sat me and told me what was going 71 00:05:43.639 --> 00:05:48.000 on. I just experienced it viscerally and physically, like in what I was 72 00:05:48.040 --> 00:05:54.800 growing up. Textbooks came from Jordan. We didn't have Palestinian curriculum, we 73 00:05:54.879 --> 00:05:59.879 didn't have ministries, we didn't have police. It was the Israeli Army policing 74 00:06:00.279 --> 00:06:05.519 towns. You feel like in my town was surrounded by settlements, and settlers 75 00:06:05.519 --> 00:06:10.040 would come to the market and they would bring their guns when they do like 76 00:06:10.160 --> 00:06:16.279 vegetable shopping. So there's this unspoken tension and mistrust. And early on I 77 00:06:16.360 --> 00:06:20.360 was afraid of the army because I know army could just beat you up, 78 00:06:20.519 --> 00:06:27.480 arrestue. And by the nineteen eighties we had the first Antifada and he was 79 00:06:28.040 --> 00:06:30.920 terrifying to live there as a young teenager, I mean, I was tear 80 00:06:31.040 --> 00:06:36.240 gassed. I had like for no fault of my own, just my existence, 81 00:06:36.240 --> 00:06:40.720 and that part of place, I felt I was a suspect and I 82 00:06:40.800 --> 00:06:47.160 was caught in this cycle of anger and rage, and I felt it as 83 00:06:47.160 --> 00:06:50.160 a child. But then by the time it became a teenager, was very 84 00:06:50.160 --> 00:06:58.399 apparent that the political situation is not normal. It's not normal for society to 85 00:06:58.480 --> 00:07:02.040 be occupying another society and forced it to live under its rule. And that's 86 00:07:02.120 --> 00:07:10.040 what I grew up with. Now you mentioned again the rather idyllic I know 87 00:07:10.279 --> 00:07:14.000 the way to describe it, the sharing of the church in the mosque with 88 00:07:13.480 --> 00:07:21.120 your father's masque. Yeah, what happened from there in that kind of understanding 89 00:07:21.199 --> 00:07:27.560 of one and not only understanding respect for one another. How did that change? 90 00:07:27.600 --> 00:07:30.439 Where did that change? Why did that change? Is there something that 91 00:07:31.199 --> 00:07:36.560 was seminal for you or a moment that in your mind proved to be an 92 00:07:36.600 --> 00:07:43.639 epiphany that this is going to change. I mean, the first ant Father 93 00:07:43.839 --> 00:07:46.600 was so like the war in Lebanon happened in nineteen eighty two when I was 94 00:07:46.600 --> 00:07:50.959 a child, and I've seen dead bodies on TV, and that kind of 95 00:07:51.120 --> 00:07:56.920 shook me emotionally. There's something severally wrong. And then slowly the violence on 96 00:07:57.000 --> 00:08:03.240 TV became part of my daily life, like checkpoints. I was tear gas 97 00:08:03.439 --> 00:08:07.160 more than once. I was arrested and released for no reason. I was 98 00:08:07.399 --> 00:08:13.600 a friend of mine disappeared at the age of fifteen, sixteen to military jail 99 00:08:13.000 --> 00:08:18.360 for six months detention, administrative detention without even a hearing, just because there 100 00:08:18.360 --> 00:08:22.800 were suspects. So it started coming closer and closer, from being on TV 101 00:08:22.480 --> 00:08:26.720 to being in the street, to being in my actual school. And suddenly 102 00:08:28.519 --> 00:08:33.879 the word kind of completely collapsed and the reality of the politics became part of 103 00:08:33.919 --> 00:08:37.639 my everyday life, became part of my every day struggle, to the point 104 00:08:37.679 --> 00:08:43.720 where I had to leave the country. Let's say you talked about emigrating to 105 00:08:43.840 --> 00:08:46.159 America and your love for America and rock and roll and the Grateful Dead. 106 00:08:46.240 --> 00:08:50.960 We'll talk a little bit. You became a dead head, but I think 107 00:08:52.000 --> 00:08:56.120 it's important if you can to verbalize what it's like. You know, we're 108 00:08:56.159 --> 00:09:01.480 spoiled as Americans. We've never known that. Most of us have not. 109 00:09:01.600 --> 00:09:05.159 There have been some who have been subject to racism. That's almost like occupation. 110 00:09:05.720 --> 00:09:09.919 Yeah, if you will, But generally speaking, it's not the type 111 00:09:09.919 --> 00:09:16.440 of thing that Americans have experienced firsthand, so it's very hard for them to 112 00:09:16.600 --> 00:09:20.559 understand. If you can psychologically, how does that change a person? What 113 00:09:20.600 --> 00:09:24.919 does it do inside your mind? Maybe if you understand a little bit of 114 00:09:24.919 --> 00:09:28.919 that, we can understand where we are today. That's a really good question. 115 00:09:30.039 --> 00:09:35.480 The occupation that I've experienced is also cultural and visceral. For example, 116 00:09:35.480 --> 00:09:39.000 when I was growing in town, there was only two radio stations. There 117 00:09:39.080 --> 00:09:45.799 is the Israeli Arab radio station and there is a Jordinian radio station, and 118 00:09:45.840 --> 00:09:52.360 there was no local radio station speaking in our local tongue voice culture. So 119 00:09:54.120 --> 00:09:58.519 you're even what you listen to, what you watch on TV is censored and 120 00:09:58.639 --> 00:10:01.559 controlled. When I was growing up, a lot of books were banned, 121 00:10:01.799 --> 00:10:05.840 and I was a big reader since I was like ten. And it's almost 122 00:10:05.879 --> 00:10:09.279 hard to find a map of where you live in the local library. There 123 00:10:09.360 --> 00:10:13.480 is no map. You don't even know where you exist on the map. 124 00:10:13.240 --> 00:10:16.919 When I was growing up, for example, we were not We were told 125 00:10:16.919 --> 00:10:24.879 we were Arabs because we were not Palaestinians. So I could not tell anybody 126 00:10:24.000 --> 00:10:30.720 that I was Palestinian because my sheer definition of my existence and my national origin 127 00:10:31.519 --> 00:10:35.480 is threatening to the political state. So when I was growing up, it 128 00:10:35.639 --> 00:10:41.639 was illegal to wear red, black, white, and green because these are 129 00:10:41.679 --> 00:10:46.960 the colors of a Palasinian flag. I haven't seen actually an actual Philoscian Palasian 130 00:10:46.039 --> 00:10:52.919 flag till I was maybe fifteen, because it was just not allowed. So 131 00:10:54.000 --> 00:10:58.559 you feel this presence of what's allowed and what's not allowed, to the point 132 00:10:58.600 --> 00:11:05.360 where you start whispering, you start censoring your own thoughts because the occupation actually 133 00:11:05.440 --> 00:11:09.559 gets to form your identity in your mind. Sometimes you either become rebellious, 134 00:11:09.639 --> 00:11:16.159 angry, militant and hateful, or you become self hating. You could become 135 00:11:16.639 --> 00:11:20.440 paranor you could be it's really it does something to your mind. You could 136 00:11:20.480 --> 00:11:24.279 become almost you fight that, you become a poet, you become an artist. 137 00:11:24.320 --> 00:11:28.799 You have to choose an attitude towards occupation. You either become a scientist 138 00:11:28.960 --> 00:11:33.320 or something it's like it's such a strong fact in your Life's defining your movement, 139 00:11:33.440 --> 00:11:37.639 is defining what you read, where you go, who you hang out 140 00:11:37.679 --> 00:11:41.360 with. When does your car get stop? When does your carget moved? 141 00:11:41.399 --> 00:11:48.039 So most of the West Bank is filled with checkpoints, and these checkpoints are 142 00:11:48.080 --> 00:11:52.759 man usually by young Israeli soldiers eighteen to twenty something, and they stop each 143 00:11:52.840 --> 00:11:58.720 car passing by. They check your boxes, you check your clothing. Sometimes 144 00:11:58.879 --> 00:12:01.000 stands out for half an hour for no reason at all, just to tell 145 00:12:01.039 --> 00:12:07.000 you that, remember, you're under occupation. So there is this daily harassment 146 00:12:07.960 --> 00:12:11.720 of the of the average Palestine. It doesn't matter if you're nice, you're 147 00:12:11.799 --> 00:12:15.840 religious, you're an atheist, you're man, woman, or child. You're 148 00:12:15.879 --> 00:12:20.279 a subject to the occupation system. And the occupation system has to monitor you, 149 00:12:20.320 --> 00:12:24.679 on watch you. So it's really a big burden to carry on the 150 00:12:24.720 --> 00:12:28.240 heart of the mind. Allow me to play the devil's advocate, one of 151 00:12:28.279 --> 00:12:33.399 the things I do best on the show because someone someone asked, But in 152 00:12:33.480 --> 00:12:39.600 many Israelis and Jewish friends that I have, without saying in so many words, 153 00:12:39.320 --> 00:12:46.440 suggest that the Palestinians are their own worst enemy. If you will again, 154 00:12:46.559 --> 00:12:52.360 when I want to get into Hamas and by following these rather radical, 155 00:12:52.480 --> 00:12:58.200 militant, aggressive leaders, etc. So you know Israel will bring peace, 156 00:12:58.759 --> 00:13:01.720 it almost if you will. And I'm a student of ancient history, particularly 157 00:13:01.840 --> 00:13:05.320 Roman history, and the Romans were great if you did things their well because 158 00:13:05.320 --> 00:13:09.080 your attitude was like at which in America has also to agree to a degree. 159 00:13:09.279 --> 00:13:11.799 Well, everybody wants to be Roman. Look at our cities, look 160 00:13:11.799 --> 00:13:16.879 at the coliseum, look at what we can bring into the world. Your 161 00:13:16.919 --> 00:13:20.639 culture can be okay over there, But doesn't everybody want to be Roman? 162 00:13:20.919 --> 00:13:24.200 So some of them at times, and you can you forgive me and apologize 163 00:13:24.200 --> 00:13:26.840 to them as well. It mean to be hurtful, but there seems to 164 00:13:26.879 --> 00:13:31.360 be an attitude. Well, we're bringing a better life. We are bringing 165 00:13:31.360 --> 00:13:35.879 a better life to the Palestinians. Why don't they see that? Your thoughts? 166 00:13:35.159 --> 00:13:39.799 Yeah, yeah, Actually I've had this argument several several times, and 167 00:13:39.879 --> 00:13:43.840 it's an interesting argument. First of all, you have native people living in 168 00:13:43.879 --> 00:13:50.360 some land and some occupying force and it comes and declares itself the ruler. 169 00:13:52.159 --> 00:13:58.080 It's very strange for the person who comes and takes over your life to tell 170 00:13:58.120 --> 00:14:01.679 you how you should behave and what kind of choices you should make to justify 171 00:14:01.720 --> 00:14:09.039 your behavior, and let's face it, it's an imperial attitude. And at 172 00:14:09.039 --> 00:14:16.320 the same time, like Palestinians have been resisting occupation in all kinds of forms, 173 00:14:16.360 --> 00:14:24.200 including for example, non violent, non violent resistance to occupation like going 174 00:14:24.360 --> 00:14:30.559 hunger strikes, boycotting products, and this and that. And every time a 175 00:14:30.600 --> 00:14:35.840 Palestinian leader who comes with a voice of reason and who's proposing a logical, 176 00:14:37.360 --> 00:14:43.519 hopeful future is either arrested and sometimes assassinated. We have not been even given 177 00:14:43.559 --> 00:14:48.879 a chance to develop a healthy, organic leadership in the last hundred years because 178 00:14:48.039 --> 00:14:54.440 our society has been divided, chased, forced into exile. How do you 179 00:14:54.480 --> 00:14:58.480 build a civil society? How do you build a culture when you are under 180 00:14:58.519 --> 00:15:03.200 run the whole time? And to the Palasian credit, we are still here 181 00:15:03.240 --> 00:15:07.559 one hundred years later. Where a lot of forces would have loved for us 182 00:15:07.559 --> 00:15:16.240 to disappear, we still stayed in our place. And most Palestinians are rational, 183 00:15:16.559 --> 00:15:20.279 peace loving, normal people. I mean, there is this tendency to 184 00:15:20.320 --> 00:15:24.639 pick up a few and use them as an excuse to cover up the whole. 185 00:15:26.240 --> 00:15:28.440 I am not a unique Palestinian in the way I'm talking to you. 186 00:15:28.519 --> 00:15:33.600 I can find you another one hundred Palaestinians who have very similar point of view 187 00:15:33.679 --> 00:15:39.320 and very simplar temperament. So the idea of blaming the victim and saying it's 188 00:15:39.399 --> 00:15:45.120 your fault, you're an idiot, it's your fault you're being abused. It's 189 00:15:45.159 --> 00:15:50.240 almost like a domestic abused kind of situation where the husband beats the wife and 190 00:15:50.759 --> 00:15:56.879 tells her I'm beating you because you talk too much. So it's sometimes, 191 00:15:56.960 --> 00:16:03.440 I'm sorry to use this crude metaphor, but blaming the victim when the victim 192 00:16:03.480 --> 00:16:07.279 has been trying to speak and to have a voice and to have a place 193 00:16:07.279 --> 00:16:11.279 on the table to have a discussion as I'm trying right now. Is U 194 00:16:12.039 --> 00:16:18.120 is a classic technique of dismissing the argument like there is something wrong with us, 195 00:16:18.759 --> 00:16:22.679 to say, as a collective, as a group of people, there 196 00:16:22.759 --> 00:16:26.600 is something wrong with us, and I reject this accusation. I wouldn't want 197 00:16:26.600 --> 00:16:30.759 to say that about any people. To say, oh, there is something 198 00:16:30.840 --> 00:16:33.919 wrong with the Israelis, or there's something wrong with the Armenians or whatever. 199 00:16:34.039 --> 00:16:41.480 It seems unkind and and lacking understanding of human nature. No one is born 200 00:16:42.080 --> 00:16:48.080 hateful, angry, violent person. I think the circumstances makes the man and 201 00:16:48.120 --> 00:16:52.799 the woman, and that's very unfortunate to blame the victim more than work with 202 00:16:52.919 --> 00:16:57.480 me. Let's find a way out. Good segue, and we're going to 203 00:16:57.600 --> 00:17:03.839 keep working to that end. But we have to allow October seventh into the 204 00:17:04.799 --> 00:17:11.759 conversation. The horrendous day, the horrendous act again committed in the name of 205 00:17:11.799 --> 00:17:19.640 the Palestinian people, okay, by Hamas. So again you when we know 206 00:17:19.880 --> 00:17:23.039 it's certainly not the majority, as you said, there are far more people 207 00:17:23.160 --> 00:17:29.200 like yourself, but yet Hamas in a sense is allowed to act, if 208 00:17:29.240 --> 00:17:33.880 you will, as a voice. And then it was in a sense it's 209 00:17:34.200 --> 00:17:38.920 if you think about what they're trying to accomplish, and it's working by throwing 210 00:17:38.960 --> 00:17:44.640 the entire region into turmoil. I think that was one of their goals. 211 00:17:44.920 --> 00:17:51.359 So they are achieving that. But how can you explain the level of violence 212 00:17:51.559 --> 00:17:53.960 that it gets to that point where they do it not only in the name 213 00:17:53.960 --> 00:17:59.000 of the Palestinian people, but in the name of God with the aim okay, 214 00:17:59.039 --> 00:18:04.640 and then which in Israeli response of eradication of all Jews. Yeah, 215 00:18:06.279 --> 00:18:10.440 that is a very good question. I mean as I said for us, 216 00:18:10.480 --> 00:18:14.200 I mean I'm a scientific person. I'm a college educated person, and I 217 00:18:14.440 --> 00:18:18.200 like the idea of cause and effect, and in Buddhism they talk about that 218 00:18:18.240 --> 00:18:25.279 psychologically and spiritually and politically. So if you want to analyze the cause and 219 00:18:25.319 --> 00:18:30.279 effect of this hamas phenomena, so we can look at this route. Everything 220 00:18:30.400 --> 00:18:33.160 has a route, and everything has a history and answer. I don't want 221 00:18:33.160 --> 00:18:36.160 to go through history. I know people don't have that attention spent. But 222 00:18:36.240 --> 00:18:41.599 let's understand what is Gaza? How did Gaza come into being? So most 223 00:18:41.640 --> 00:18:45.720 people don't know that seventy percent of the population of Gaza are refugees. To 224 00:18:45.759 --> 00:18:49.519 start with, they've lost their home. In nineteen forty eight, by the 225 00:18:49.599 --> 00:18:56.039 establishment of Jewish State, seven hundred and fifty Palestinians were evacuated out of their 226 00:18:56.119 --> 00:19:02.680 land for complicated circumstances we don't want to get into. But the reality is 227 00:19:03.119 --> 00:19:07.839 three quarters of a million people fled their homeland and they moved to Gaza. 228 00:19:07.319 --> 00:19:11.680 And Gaza to start with, is a poor place. Is a very small 229 00:19:11.720 --> 00:19:18.279 place, very dense space. And they've been first under occupation since nineteen sixty 230 00:19:18.279 --> 00:19:22.400 seven. Before that, they were on the Egyptian occupation. Seventy percent of 231 00:19:22.440 --> 00:19:27.720 the population is refugees. Unemployment in Gaza was just like staggering fifty percent or 232 00:19:27.759 --> 00:19:34.200 more. And Gaza for the last twenty years has been completely neglected by the 233 00:19:34.240 --> 00:19:41.359 international community and have been surrounded by a basically offense. And it's an open 234 00:19:41.400 --> 00:19:45.000 air prison. And this is as described by Israeli historian. This is not 235 00:19:45.119 --> 00:19:49.160 my opinion. The smartest people in Israel that I listen to are telling me 236 00:19:49.559 --> 00:19:56.759 that this is an open air prison. So you create within the border of 237 00:19:56.799 --> 00:20:02.160 your own society, under your own control circumstances. Nobody created it, but 238 00:20:02.200 --> 00:20:04.359 this would happen, So this will happen. You have a place at the 239 00:20:04.359 --> 00:20:10.599 border of Israel, within Israel itself that has been a place of conflict and 240 00:20:10.599 --> 00:20:15.279 an argument and disagreement for seventy five years, and we choose to neglect it 241 00:20:15.319 --> 00:20:21.759 and ignore it. And then and under the circumstances, this is not a 242 00:20:21.759 --> 00:20:29.759 place for a renaissance of democracy to thrive. Tension, violence, hate, 243 00:20:30.720 --> 00:20:36.279 lack of resources, unemployment, these are the places where radicalism can grow. 244 00:20:37.039 --> 00:20:42.400 So we are all responsible, me included, for allowing the radicalism in Gaza 245 00:20:44.400 --> 00:20:48.640 to spread, and that radicalism is understandable. I mean, when people are 246 00:20:49.720 --> 00:20:56.799 have nothing to lose and under this much, being dismissed, being ignored. 247 00:20:56.920 --> 00:21:02.000 I'm not again, I'm not justifying by the way. I'm vegan. I 248 00:21:02.039 --> 00:21:04.039 would not kill a chicken if I had to. I mean, I just 249 00:21:04.119 --> 00:21:08.000 I'm trying. I'm working, I'm working on I'm not perfectly. I hate 250 00:21:08.119 --> 00:21:15.559 violence, I hate hurting people any people, and uh no one When this, 251 00:21:15.559 --> 00:21:18.960 this hamass thing that happened was just I mean, it was the most 252 00:21:18.960 --> 00:21:23.359 shocking thing that ever happened in my life. And I was just as outraged 253 00:21:23.440 --> 00:21:27.440 and in disbelief as anyone else. And I've called my Israeli friends to check 254 00:21:27.480 --> 00:21:30.519 on them. How are you guys doing with this? Because it was just 255 00:21:32.359 --> 00:21:37.640 an epic act that's terrifying. But at the same time, maybe unfortunately, 256 00:21:38.319 --> 00:21:42.559 it could be a wake up call that there's something someone, for someone to 257 00:21:42.599 --> 00:21:48.240 do something so violent and so ugly and so whatever, something is severely wrong. 258 00:21:48.880 --> 00:21:56.519 Let's ask what's wrong? And do we want to demonize everybody who lives 259 00:21:56.559 --> 00:22:02.920 in Gaza and think they are monsters? Is this really a rational way to 260 00:22:03.000 --> 00:22:08.039 describe two million people which we have seen doctors and engineers and poets and normal 261 00:22:08.079 --> 00:22:15.720 people. These gaza did not have an election in twenty twenty something years and 262 00:22:15.799 --> 00:22:18.880 most of the people of Guys are under the age of twenty anyway, So 263 00:22:18.920 --> 00:22:25.039 how do we blame an entire population for a leadership they have not voted for, 264 00:22:25.039 --> 00:22:33.079 for a circumstance that thrived on violent and have been allowed to grow more 265 00:22:33.160 --> 00:22:40.559 radicalism and more rage and more hate. And I think think because of course 266 00:22:40.559 --> 00:22:48.640 and effect, the circumstances produce this ugly, horrific event. The question is 267 00:22:48.799 --> 00:22:52.880 how do we respond to this? That was actually leading to my question. 268 00:22:53.000 --> 00:23:00.000 I mean for me to acknowledge the complexity of this situational So Israel gets caught 269 00:23:00.039 --> 00:23:04.440 between a rock and a hard place, if you will, because there has 270 00:23:04.480 --> 00:23:10.440 to be some response. There had to be some response. People call it 271 00:23:10.440 --> 00:23:15.519 heavy handed, and it certainly has been. How what would have been a 272 00:23:15.519 --> 00:23:21.759 more effective way in your mind for Israel to respond? I mean, first 273 00:23:21.799 --> 00:23:25.519 of all, I really believe in the concept of law and international law. 274 00:23:26.160 --> 00:23:29.200 I mean, we live in the same town. Imagine how much life would 275 00:23:29.240 --> 00:23:33.720 be hell if people park wherever they want to park. Like It's nice to 276 00:23:33.839 --> 00:23:40.279 have an international order in the system. So in international law, there's this 277 00:23:40.359 --> 00:23:48.279 concept of proportionality of use of force. So Israel wants to retaliate, act 278 00:23:48.519 --> 00:23:51.799 whatever, get blood back. I don't know what to call it, have 279 00:23:51.880 --> 00:23:59.599 revenge. It's been seven months, the entire Gaza strip is destroyed and flattened, 280 00:24:00.039 --> 00:24:07.319 when the universities are completely destroyed and flattened, hardly any hospitals. I 281 00:24:07.359 --> 00:24:12.480 mean, it's becoming beyond and beyond the action and the retaliation, and I'm 282 00:24:12.599 --> 00:24:21.000 questioning what's the aim and how does this end? Because this situation is frightening. 283 00:24:21.400 --> 00:24:23.759 This situation is frightening, you know, and I want to get to 284 00:24:23.920 --> 00:24:27.559 whether or not you know part of it is are the effective I mean in 285 00:24:27.640 --> 00:24:32.480 terms of protecting themselves? And you sent me a very interesting video that I 286 00:24:32.519 --> 00:24:34.400 watched from an Israeli scholar to give me. I should have written down his 287 00:24:34.480 --> 00:24:38.440 name. I don't have it right now, but he talked about the effectiveness 288 00:24:38.799 --> 00:24:45.240 of the Israeli campaign and how it's really not accomplishing what it wants to. 289 00:24:45.400 --> 00:24:49.039 And it's funny because before we started taping today was watching a little CNN and 290 00:24:49.039 --> 00:24:53.720 they gave a live update on talking about how troops are massing even further to 291 00:24:53.759 --> 00:25:00.400 go into Rafa and at the same time are going back into northern Gaza to 292 00:25:00.519 --> 00:25:07.599 fight insurgencies in areas they've already cleared. So the saying of killing one terrorist 293 00:25:08.359 --> 00:25:15.240 the way it's been done has created five more, and there's evidence to that, 294 00:25:15.759 --> 00:25:19.000 so that it's really not being effective. You can't ratic. You may 295 00:25:19.000 --> 00:25:23.400 eradicate people, but you can eradicate the idea. And later on I'm going 296 00:25:23.480 --> 00:25:27.480 to use that very famous quote from Martin Luther King about darkness, that only 297 00:25:27.559 --> 00:25:32.559 light can drive out darkness. But we seem to be stuck in this violence 298 00:25:32.559 --> 00:25:34.799 of just they hate us and we're gonna hate them more, and the more 299 00:25:34.839 --> 00:25:38.359 we hate them, the more they're gonna hate us, and we seem to 300 00:25:37.839 --> 00:25:42.599 be stuck. And again it's the bottom line is it doesn't seem to be 301 00:25:42.680 --> 00:25:48.920 effective. Why can't Israel see that? I think we all have to take 302 00:25:48.000 --> 00:25:55.480 risks. As I said, I believe that ideas are like viruses, and 303 00:25:55.680 --> 00:26:00.720 if enough of us promote peace and support peace verbal, politically, financially, 304 00:26:00.920 --> 00:26:04.839 and speak to our politicians about the peace we desire, the peace can happen. 305 00:26:06.759 --> 00:26:11.480 So currently the world is at risk. I I mean people who are 306 00:26:11.519 --> 00:26:15.839 saying that world war three could come out of this, are not exaggerating, 307 00:26:18.119 --> 00:26:22.160 I agree. So I feel like you and I live in one hundred story 308 00:26:22.160 --> 00:26:26.079 building and there is a fire in the first and second floor, and you 309 00:26:26.119 --> 00:26:27.440 and I could say, you know what, we're comfortable here. We can 310 00:26:27.480 --> 00:26:33.480 drink our martinis, depends house. Were having fun. But it behooves you 311 00:26:33.519 --> 00:26:36.960 and behooves me to say we need to stop the fire in the lobby of 312 00:26:36.960 --> 00:26:41.640 this building because eventually we'll eat us. So it's really important to We live 313 00:26:41.640 --> 00:26:48.160 in a very fragile ecosystem, fragile international system, political system, and bad 314 00:26:48.279 --> 00:26:52.799 enough we have the war in Ukraine and all the money and cornish that's coming 315 00:26:52.799 --> 00:26:59.640 out of that. To start another major war in the Middle East that might 316 00:26:59.759 --> 00:27:07.359 last for a very long time is financially expensive, morally expensive, politically expensive, 317 00:27:07.559 --> 00:27:12.000 and it's currently affecting our democracy in the United States. So for if 318 00:27:12.039 --> 00:27:17.920 you and I believe in peace and believe that peace is a collective project, 319 00:27:17.960 --> 00:27:22.160 that every conversation I'm having with you we're trying to add one more piece, 320 00:27:22.960 --> 00:27:27.519 then the logic of war in the long run does not save anybody. It 321 00:27:27.599 --> 00:27:34.799 only serves people who have invested in the military industrial complex. So the Israeli 322 00:27:34.839 --> 00:27:38.480 is currently and I and for first of all, let's let's ask a question. 323 00:27:38.519 --> 00:27:44.839 Who's ruling Israel right now? You have Netanyahu with his right wing government. 324 00:27:45.319 --> 00:27:48.720 This man was wanted for law. He has trial to go to go 325 00:27:48.799 --> 00:27:53.400 through and for him, this is his golden moment. He gets to be 326 00:27:53.480 --> 00:27:57.519 the hero, he gets to run this military campaign, and no one's asking 327 00:27:57.599 --> 00:28:03.240 him about his misdeeds. So we don't have the smartest people driving the bus. 328 00:28:03.880 --> 00:28:07.920 And my concern is the people in the back of the bus, which 329 00:28:07.000 --> 00:28:11.000 is you and me, should be saying, hey, guys, do we 330 00:28:11.119 --> 00:28:17.599 trust this person to be making the most historical, ethical and moral decisions for 331 00:28:17.720 --> 00:28:22.119 the survival of the Israeli people and for the survival of the planet. And 332 00:28:22.200 --> 00:28:26.160 currently I don't think anybody is asking this question. We're all triggered. And 333 00:28:26.200 --> 00:28:32.799 I my Jewish American friends, which have a very complicated history relationship with Israel, 334 00:28:33.400 --> 00:28:37.440 feel like they have to support Israel no matter what. And I tell 335 00:28:37.480 --> 00:28:41.480 my friends, please, if you see me doing something wrong, stop me, 336 00:28:41.960 --> 00:28:45.359 please, please please stop me. If you see me saying something stupid 337 00:28:45.799 --> 00:28:51.119 or acting badly or whatever. I want my friends to advise me not to 338 00:28:51.119 --> 00:28:56.759 do it. So if America, if the people who are still supporting Israel 339 00:28:56.720 --> 00:29:00.839 are supporting it blindly with that question, then we not help. I mean, 340 00:29:02.240 --> 00:29:06.960 your friends help you when you go beyond the limit. And unfortunately, 341 00:29:07.039 --> 00:29:11.400 I feel like we are not saying to Israel, let's have a plan, 342 00:29:11.640 --> 00:29:15.680 let's discuss this, what's the long term objectives of this campaign? How does 343 00:29:15.720 --> 00:29:21.880 this work for Israel? And no loomrun. There's been a worldwide outrage, 344 00:29:21.920 --> 00:29:26.079 and particularly on college campuses here in this country. And I'm of the age 345 00:29:26.119 --> 00:29:30.799 and I was in school at the time when it happened during the Vietnam era, 346 00:29:30.880 --> 00:29:33.920 and college campuses were rocked with protests and did manage to change the world 347 00:29:34.400 --> 00:29:38.480 and helped to end that war. But what's interesting to me too is how 348 00:29:38.519 --> 00:29:42.279 how all of a sudden, or it seems sudden to me, that the 349 00:29:42.319 --> 00:29:47.519 Palestinian movement, which used to be shunned, much more shunned. Have you 350 00:29:47.599 --> 00:29:51.920 mentioned it? People would think of the death of the Israeli athletes at the 351 00:29:52.000 --> 00:29:56.839 Munich Olympics. They always so terror Palestinians, the next would be slash terror. 352 00:29:56.559 --> 00:30:00.920 Now all of a sudden, it seems to have shifted where the sympathies 353 00:30:00.039 --> 00:30:07.200 lie much more in the Palestinian corner than ever before. What do you think 354 00:30:07.279 --> 00:30:12.960 change that? First of all, we are very lucky to have alternative media 355 00:30:14.039 --> 00:30:18.960 like this radio station. Back in the sixties, seventies and eighties, there 356 00:30:18.039 --> 00:30:22.000 was only the main three to four networks and they told the narrative of the 357 00:30:22.039 --> 00:30:26.279 story the way the people of power wanted the story to be taught. And 358 00:30:26.359 --> 00:30:32.920 now the Internet has broken this wide open, which is also dangerous that people 359 00:30:32.960 --> 00:30:37.119 can google whatever news they want to watch and they can watch an alternative media. 360 00:30:37.160 --> 00:30:42.519 Of course, it creates eco echo chambers, it creates algorithms can guide 361 00:30:42.559 --> 00:30:47.680 you to only believe one narrative only. This is why I think it's really 362 00:30:47.720 --> 00:30:52.039 wise. I think we all have to have media literacy and say I'm not 363 00:30:52.079 --> 00:30:56.200 gonna only listen to the pro war news. I'm going to listen to some 364 00:30:56.240 --> 00:30:59.119 anti war news and see what they have to say. I mean, we 365 00:30:59.279 --> 00:31:03.720 have a response ability to participate in this conversation. And as Americans, our 366 00:31:03.759 --> 00:31:11.799 taxpayers are funding this war with a huge sum of money, and are we 367 00:31:11.920 --> 00:31:15.880 helping are we really hurting the vision? And ourselves? Do we want our 368 00:31:15.960 --> 00:31:22.640 tax money to support a state that's I mean, international Court of Justice have 369 00:31:22.960 --> 00:31:29.240 quite a strong story about Israel violating international law. Is this what Americans feel 370 00:31:29.759 --> 00:31:30.759 is our right thing to do? So, I mean, I feel like 371 00:31:30.799 --> 00:31:37.200 we have to participate in this conversation. We have to go beyond the triggers 372 00:31:37.200 --> 00:31:41.240 of you did this and I did that. This is basically our baby. 373 00:31:41.599 --> 00:31:47.839 We all have to all hands on deck with answers, not with more divisions, 374 00:31:47.880 --> 00:31:52.759 because the divisions are going to sink this ship. And I think de 375 00:31:53.000 --> 00:31:57.319 escalating would be the first step. We've been asking for a cease fire for 376 00:31:57.359 --> 00:32:04.240 the last seven months. It's been more than seven months of almost random killing. 377 00:32:04.640 --> 00:32:08.640 It's not saving any hostages, it's not achieving any military objectives. It's 378 00:32:08.680 --> 00:32:12.839 creating more hate and more anger. Maybe if we stop and we think, 379 00:32:13.000 --> 00:32:17.559 take a deep breath and say, okay, what's happening? How can this 380 00:32:17.759 --> 00:32:22.440 end well? And I think most people are afraid to ask that question. 381 00:32:22.079 --> 00:32:29.160 Let's take a deep breath, slow down, assess what happened, what's happening, 382 00:32:29.160 --> 00:32:35.880 and what's going to happen. And so we're hijacked by the fog of 383 00:32:36.000 --> 00:32:43.920 war, We're hijacked by fears, we're hijacked by trigger, the trigger happy 384 00:32:44.119 --> 00:32:47.079 people who are just wanting an action. You have to ask yourself, is 385 00:32:47.119 --> 00:32:52.559 this the proper action? Is this action going to lead to long term peace? 386 00:32:54.039 --> 00:32:58.039 You know, you sent me your core values, and they're absolutely wonderful, 387 00:32:58.599 --> 00:33:00.920 and I want to read some of them. I believe in the good, 388 00:33:01.000 --> 00:33:07.559 true and peaceful and beautiful in art, life and politics. To evolve 389 00:33:07.599 --> 00:33:12.759 our collective psyche, we have to challenge our own emotions, examine our self 390 00:33:13.400 --> 00:33:20.680 deception. Please expand on it a little bit, I kind of. I 391 00:33:20.720 --> 00:33:24.000 mean, we tend to speak about politics and educate. I was in education 392 00:33:24.079 --> 00:33:30.200 for a long time, and I think the conditioning we have in our minds 393 00:33:30.400 --> 00:33:35.200 dictates the state of our mind. So I had students who were quite good, 394 00:33:35.880 --> 00:33:38.680 but they didn't have the best role models growing up, and someone when 395 00:33:38.720 --> 00:33:42.960 they were growing up to them they were stupid. And they come to me 396 00:33:43.000 --> 00:33:45.640 and they kind of almost telling me that they think they're stupid, and then 397 00:33:45.680 --> 00:33:47.680 I will give them an assignment. And I was like, oh my god, 398 00:33:47.720 --> 00:33:52.400 this guy is really bright. He knows so much why no one has 399 00:33:52.440 --> 00:33:57.599 ever noticed the intelligence of this person. But he started believing the story that 400 00:33:57.640 --> 00:34:02.559 he's stupid, and he started acting it. And I think politically and spiritually, 401 00:34:02.640 --> 00:34:09.639 we have to examine our core values and collectively we think that I think 402 00:34:09.679 --> 00:34:14.920 that the ideas I have our only mind reality. We're a very cultured species, 403 00:34:15.039 --> 00:34:19.039 were influenced by our uncles, our teachers, or mothers or fathers. 404 00:34:19.719 --> 00:34:23.719 So if you want to be a free person, you have to examine even 405 00:34:23.760 --> 00:34:29.599 your own values, because not everything you believe have you First of all, 406 00:34:29.639 --> 00:34:32.280 have you worked it out and thought it through to its end? Second of 407 00:34:32.320 --> 00:34:37.280 all, is this really a believe you want to live by? So partly 408 00:34:38.559 --> 00:34:45.440 the cultures of the two societies I mean Palestinians for example, we are stuck 409 00:34:45.559 --> 00:34:49.719 into the victim consciousness. I can talk to you about how much I've been 410 00:34:49.719 --> 00:34:52.360 wronged all my life, and it wants to answer you. It's really boring 411 00:34:52.400 --> 00:34:57.920 for you and for me. But I don't want to need to deny my 412 00:34:57.960 --> 00:35:00.679 suffering. But I don't want to define myself for my suffering and my struggle 413 00:35:00.719 --> 00:35:04.960 in my past. Right now, you and I are free. We have 414 00:35:05.000 --> 00:35:08.800 this moment of peace that we just created because we choose to. So I 415 00:35:08.880 --> 00:35:15.079 do have agency over my mind, and I can choose how my mind and 416 00:35:15.079 --> 00:35:20.119 my mental state can affect the reality around me and in my world. So 417 00:35:21.000 --> 00:35:25.039 the Palatine and people have a victim history of victimhood. So also all the 418 00:35:25.079 --> 00:35:30.760 Jewish people. The Jewish people have struggled so much in Europe, discrimination, 419 00:35:30.360 --> 00:35:37.239 Holocaust, not being offered jobs. I've had friends who told me their fathers 420 00:35:37.280 --> 00:35:42.360 in the sixties could not join the local country club because you were Jewish. 421 00:35:42.719 --> 00:35:50.079 Soy movie Gentlemen's agreement all about that. So American Jewish people have suffered so 422 00:35:50.159 --> 00:35:54.480 much under discrimination, and I understand the tendency to say, because we suffered, 423 00:35:54.559 --> 00:36:00.000 because we've been victimized, we have to protect our own. So I 424 00:36:00.079 --> 00:36:06.199 understand this is the emotion dictates the mind. So if you feel like defensive 425 00:36:06.239 --> 00:36:09.639 and guarded, then you already turn off the radio station. Because this conversation 426 00:36:09.760 --> 00:36:15.840 is true to triggering. So if you want to grow, you have to 427 00:36:15.000 --> 00:36:19.880 go and meet the edge, meet the edge of what you don't know and 428 00:36:20.000 --> 00:36:22.960 say, let me touch this, let me see what this is all about. 429 00:36:22.960 --> 00:36:25.239 Actually, children are very good at doing this. They run around touching 430 00:36:25.280 --> 00:36:29.920 everything, seeing what happens. Then when we grow up, we believe in 431 00:36:29.960 --> 00:36:34.320 the safety of what I know, and I don't allow myself to be examined 432 00:36:34.320 --> 00:36:37.079 even with my best friends. So if I want to be in a growth 433 00:36:37.159 --> 00:36:42.519 mindset, and if I want to change and evolve my thinking, then I 434 00:36:42.559 --> 00:36:46.199 have to open two ideas that might be challenging. I have to open up 435 00:36:46.239 --> 00:36:52.599 to ideas that may be different than my parents used to think. And so 436 00:36:52.679 --> 00:36:58.599 this idea of being in an open mindset and being aware of your feelings and 437 00:36:58.679 --> 00:37:00.199 say, oh, Frank, I know he's has appeared. I think he 438 00:37:00.239 --> 00:37:02.960 looks like Ben Laden or something. But no, let me talk to him 439 00:37:04.000 --> 00:37:07.679 first. Maybe before I do the judgment, I need to reach out and 440 00:37:07.719 --> 00:37:09.760 say, let's see what Frank is all about. Frank, tell me what 441 00:37:09.760 --> 00:37:15.840 you're all about, and suddenly we have a connection. So the two camps 442 00:37:15.920 --> 00:37:22.360 currently, because of the campus situation, no one at all is listening to 443 00:37:22.400 --> 00:37:29.679 the other party. So I have Jewish friends who think that all these college 444 00:37:29.760 --> 00:37:34.199 kids are hateful anti Semite, but they haven't been to a single demonstration. 445 00:37:34.400 --> 00:37:37.920 I've been to more than ten demonstrations, and I hang out with these kids 446 00:37:37.239 --> 00:37:40.719 and I'm warning this bracelet on my hand right now. A Jewish girl from 447 00:37:40.800 --> 00:37:46.079 n Yu gave me this Gaza bracelet, and one third of the people on 448 00:37:46.079 --> 00:37:50.559 the demonstrations I go to are Jewish. They are Jewish progressive Americans. I 449 00:37:50.599 --> 00:37:54.920 mean, then because of the age and the history of antisemitem, someone will 450 00:37:54.960 --> 00:37:58.519 say, oh, they're self hating Jews. I mean, it gets to 451 00:37:58.559 --> 00:38:06.119 the point where you're allowing voices of dissent. You're not allowing other intelligent people 452 00:38:06.119 --> 00:38:08.400 to participate in a conversation. Maybe they have something to say that's worth listening 453 00:38:08.519 --> 00:38:14.760 listening to. But the idea of if you say one thing that seems threatening 454 00:38:14.760 --> 00:38:17.199 to me, I'm gonna shut you down. That's not a good way to 455 00:38:17.280 --> 00:38:22.760 learn and to grow. So I feel like that's happening both consciously and unconsciously, 456 00:38:22.239 --> 00:38:30.199 that my fears are so strong that I can't think straight. And I 457 00:38:30.239 --> 00:38:31.159 want to give an example. Do you know when you're hungry and you go 458 00:38:31.199 --> 00:38:35.880 to the store and you buy all kinds of things and you live with like 459 00:38:35.920 --> 00:38:44.079 six bags of chips. Because it's really important to examine one emotional state before 460 00:38:44.320 --> 00:38:47.000 committing an action. So if I'm in a state of fear, anybody can 461 00:38:47.039 --> 00:38:50.960 take advantage of me. If I'm on state of anger, anybody can take 462 00:38:50.960 --> 00:38:54.480 advantage of me. Like you know, the guy who sells fake role axes 463 00:38:54.519 --> 00:38:59.800 in the street. He does not sell them to rich people. He only 464 00:38:59.800 --> 00:39:05.239 sell them to poor people. So some way, somehow, your current emotional 465 00:39:05.280 --> 00:39:12.400 state affects your decisions. So before we even get to make decisions, we 466 00:39:12.440 --> 00:39:15.199 need to kind of say, Okay, what kind of framework frame mind am 467 00:39:15.239 --> 00:39:21.000 I in and how can I have a healthy conversation? And if you say 468 00:39:21.039 --> 00:39:22.519 something that's upsetting me, I could say, you know what, Frank, 469 00:39:22.559 --> 00:39:25.480 I need to take a few breath. This is really upsetting. I'm really 470 00:39:25.519 --> 00:39:29.440 nervous. I feel like I'm going to lose something. Maybe I will die, 471 00:39:29.639 --> 00:39:30.679 And you would say, okay, take the few breath. Maybe then 472 00:39:30.719 --> 00:39:35.440 I can listen to you after. So it requires that kind of attention. 473 00:39:36.440 --> 00:39:39.639 Perfect time to take a break. I love those sequys. Thank you. 474 00:39:39.760 --> 00:39:43.920 This is good. We have more to talk about. I want to talk 475 00:39:43.920 --> 00:39:47.000 about your impressions of America, what you thought it was, what it turned 476 00:39:47.039 --> 00:39:50.239 out to be. Has it lived up to the promise. I'm going to 477 00:39:50.280 --> 00:39:54.599 talk a little bit about the Grateful Dead when we come back. This has 478 00:39:54.679 --> 00:40:00.880 been truly intelligent conversation. Everything you just mentioned is kind of the zeitgeist of 479 00:40:00.960 --> 00:40:05.840 this program. That's why we call it intelligent. Conversation. My very special 480 00:40:05.880 --> 00:40:12.159 guest is Kudurhmid. We're having a wonderful conversation and intelligent conversation about Gaza. 481 00:40:12.639 --> 00:40:15.079 More to come. This is Being Frank. I'm your host, Franklboro will 482 00:40:15.119 --> 00:40:21.719 be right back. Please don't go anywhere yet. Hudson River Radio dot com. 483 00:40:21.840 --> 00:40:24.719 Check out The angel Quest Show with psychic media and author Karen Noi. 484 00:40:25.440 --> 00:40:31.360 Karen covers spiritual topics such as near death experiences, reincarnation, life after death, 485 00:40:31.519 --> 00:40:36.199 how your thoughts create your reality, creating peace on Earth, and so 486 00:40:36.400 --> 00:40:40.360 much more. Check out The angel Quest Show on Apple Podcasts, iHeart, 487 00:40:40.559 --> 00:40:47.360 Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Bring a dash of green into your 488 00:40:47.400 --> 00:40:52.599 life. Check out the Many Shades of Green with Maxine, Margot Rubin, 489 00:40:52.679 --> 00:40:58.280 and Malcolm Berman. Get informed about environmental issues and current events that affect us 490 00:40:58.320 --> 00:41:01.840 all. Pick a schete of green and raise your eco consciousness with the Many 491 00:41:01.880 --> 00:41:07.960 Shades of Green available on Apple Podcasts, iHeart, Spotify, or wherever you 492 00:41:08.000 --> 00:41:21.400 get your podcasts Hudson Riverradio dot com. Welcome back to Being Frank, the 493 00:41:21.519 --> 00:41:24.920 Intelligent Conversation podcast. Thanks for sticking with us. I'm your host, Frank 494 00:41:24.960 --> 00:41:30.039 Lebono you know, we bring our audience a fresh topic every week, actually 495 00:41:30.119 --> 00:41:34.559 premiering on Thursdays. We stream from Hudson River Radio, which is located and 496 00:41:34.559 --> 00:41:37.800 beautiful and historic Stony Point, New York. You know, Neil Richter, 497 00:41:37.920 --> 00:41:42.360 the mailman, is our engineer. He keeps us on the air. But 498 00:41:42.440 --> 00:41:45.559 you know, you can catch Being Frank anywhere you get your favorite podcasts, 499 00:41:45.599 --> 00:41:49.800 and that includes Apple, Spotify, iHeartRadio and all the others. And because 500 00:41:49.880 --> 00:41:53.000 Being Frank is archived, you can listen to any of our programs anytime you 501 00:41:53.199 --> 00:41:57.639 like. You can find a link to Being Frank on the Hudson River Facebook 502 00:41:57.679 --> 00:42:01.480 page or at our website Hudson River Radio dot com. Just click on our 503 00:42:01.679 --> 00:42:06.239 icon and you're there to listen to any program. Leave us a comment and 504 00:42:06.280 --> 00:42:09.639 please consider subscribing to the podcast, and if you really like us, share 505 00:42:09.880 --> 00:42:15.400 Being Frank with your family and friends. My very special guest is a Palestinian 506 00:42:15.480 --> 00:42:20.079 scholar and a new friend. That's always the best part of this program is 507 00:42:20.119 --> 00:42:25.159 making new friends with classy people like my guest, Cardor Hamid Kadora. Welcome 508 00:42:25.199 --> 00:42:30.719 back. Thank you for your brilliant insight in the first half of our program. 509 00:42:30.079 --> 00:42:34.039 So I'm going to correct you it's cardor just just so before we forget 510 00:42:34.280 --> 00:42:37.079 forgive me? Thank you. I wrote it down phonetically fifteen times. That's 511 00:42:37.079 --> 00:42:42.280 what being frank is about. It allows me to screw up and with patient 512 00:42:42.360 --> 00:42:46.960 guests. Yes I am. I just said, you've become my good friend 513 00:42:46.960 --> 00:42:54.360 that I can't even pronounce your freaking nameationship over this, you'll never talk to 514 00:42:54.400 --> 00:42:59.519 me again. Now you are more valuable than that. Thank you so much, 515 00:43:00.079 --> 00:43:02.960 O get forgive me. I'm trying to a lot floating around in this 516 00:43:04.039 --> 00:43:07.280 old head, especially after our conversation. But let's switch gears a little bit. 517 00:43:08.199 --> 00:43:15.840 And you mentioned coming to America. What were your impressions of America oncoming 518 00:43:15.920 --> 00:43:22.079 and what did you find when you arrived? This was interesting. I arrived 519 00:43:22.079 --> 00:43:25.159 to New York in the nineteen nineties and New York was still kind of coming 520 00:43:25.239 --> 00:43:30.960 out of that period. There was a lot of crime in the street. 521 00:43:30.400 --> 00:43:34.880 I in my imagination, I grew up in the Middle East watching Dallas, 522 00:43:34.960 --> 00:43:37.599 the TV show. You remember the TV show. So I have a soap 523 00:43:37.639 --> 00:43:45.679 opera picture of America. It's like open, rich people, fancy culture, 524 00:43:45.639 --> 00:43:52.440 rock and roll. The America that presents itself via movies to the world. 525 00:43:52.440 --> 00:43:54.360 So I had that image in my head and I landed in New York and 526 00:43:54.400 --> 00:43:58.880 I was in the Bronx, in the really tough area of the Bronx, 527 00:43:59.320 --> 00:44:02.760 and I was just shocked how the image in my head the reality that I 528 00:44:02.840 --> 00:44:07.440 was living were not the same. But then when I went to City College 529 00:44:07.440 --> 00:44:10.199 of New York and I was in Manhattan, I was really impressed by the 530 00:44:10.199 --> 00:44:15.400 Manhattan culture. I was really in Manhattan. Actually we take it for granted 531 00:44:15.440 --> 00:44:20.239 because we live next door, but it's one of the greatest cities in the 532 00:44:20.239 --> 00:44:25.440 world to have people from all kinds of walks of life. You have Chinatown, 533 00:44:25.519 --> 00:44:30.079 you have Little Italy, you have Harlem, you have Latin neighborhood, 534 00:44:30.159 --> 00:44:36.639 you have story Now with all the Asians and everything, there's a Hungarian neighborhood 535 00:44:36.719 --> 00:44:40.119 or German neighborhood. Yes, and that means you have foods from around the 536 00:44:40.119 --> 00:44:44.119 world. You have libraries, you have bookstores, and the funny thing, 537 00:44:44.400 --> 00:44:50.039 everybody gets along fine. People in Manhattan never argue or fight because of religion 538 00:44:50.360 --> 00:44:55.320 or ethnic issues. They usually fight because of money because they're trying to rob 539 00:44:55.360 --> 00:45:00.159 you. It's it's the financial capital of the world. I guess I guess 540 00:45:00.239 --> 00:45:07.639 that kind of goes so with So this capital place has its problems with capitalism. 541 00:45:07.639 --> 00:45:10.960 I mean, I'm not as homelessness, I'm not as drug addictions, 542 00:45:12.000 --> 00:45:15.480 I've not whatever. But at the same time, the idea that any immigrant 543 00:45:15.679 --> 00:45:21.519 who was hard working and intelligent and willing to do their best can come here 544 00:45:21.559 --> 00:45:24.559 and build. And I'm talking about even an immigrant from Texas can come to 545 00:45:24.559 --> 00:45:28.960 New York City and give it a shot. Try something, trying to be 546 00:45:29.000 --> 00:45:34.239 a Broadway actor, try to be an architect, try to be impression of 547 00:45:34.280 --> 00:45:37.320 anything. So I love the experience of this. Actually, New York City 548 00:45:37.400 --> 00:45:42.800 has the potential for the smelting pot, and there is a culture of inclusion 549 00:45:42.840 --> 00:45:47.320 and acceptance. And he liked that and also like being able to so. 550 00:45:47.320 --> 00:45:52.000 So remember when I grew up in the Middle East, I didn't have a 551 00:45:52.039 --> 00:45:57.679 single Israeli friend because our two societies lived in total apartheid. We don't we 552 00:45:57.679 --> 00:46:00.760 don't drive the same roads, we don't share the same who don't speak the 553 00:46:00.800 --> 00:46:05.320 same language. So at City College I made to Israeli friends and it was 554 00:46:05.360 --> 00:46:09.800 like, wow, this is easy. We can just hang out and when 555 00:46:09.840 --> 00:46:14.360 you come down to it, it's just amazing where people become people beyond. 556 00:46:15.840 --> 00:46:19.880 And also I had a lot of Jewish teachers in college. City College was 557 00:46:19.920 --> 00:46:23.480 extremely Jewish in the nineteen sixties and so and so on, and therefore these 558 00:46:23.480 --> 00:46:29.199 people formed my understanding of the world. So I mean, I read Chomsky 559 00:46:29.320 --> 00:46:36.119 when I was young. I was really interested in psychology, and I find 560 00:46:36.159 --> 00:46:42.440 a lot of Jewish psychologists have incredible influence on humanistic psychology and others. So 561 00:46:42.519 --> 00:46:47.440 I find that my Actually I live in Rockland right now, and most of 562 00:46:47.480 --> 00:46:52.360 my male friends are Jews because as Semites, we see things very similarly. 563 00:46:52.639 --> 00:46:55.320 So I get along with them and they like me, and we share the 564 00:46:55.360 --> 00:47:02.480 same concerns and have very similar moral value. So that's my experience in New 565 00:47:02.559 --> 00:47:07.559 York. And I've worked in architecture, as I said, for ten years, 566 00:47:07.599 --> 00:47:09.719 and then I was a furniture designer for designer for ten years. And 567 00:47:09.719 --> 00:47:15.840 then I got into education and I was teaching at Rockland Committee College. And 568 00:47:15.920 --> 00:47:22.440 I find that education is also a great place where minds can meet and can 569 00:47:22.519 --> 00:47:29.599 mold each other and can form experiences and can enrich each other with our different 570 00:47:29.639 --> 00:47:35.960 backgrounds. And education taught me a lot about myself and about how do you 571 00:47:36.039 --> 00:47:40.559 influence people? I'm gonna show you at the beginning. I taught the way 572 00:47:40.679 --> 00:47:45.639 my teachers told me when I was young, where the teacher will deliver the 573 00:47:45.679 --> 00:47:47.920 material, will take notes, and we'll pass the test. And then a 574 00:47:49.000 --> 00:47:52.000 lost one of this generation is not at all interested in this method. They 575 00:47:52.039 --> 00:47:57.599 want a conversation, they want to be collaborating. They don't because if they 576 00:47:57.639 --> 00:48:01.320 can google it. They want an experience. Yes, so I've learned how 577 00:48:01.360 --> 00:48:07.599 to effectively speak to people and bring the best out of them as students. 578 00:48:07.719 --> 00:48:10.960 And that was really enriching for me and for them for a long time. 579 00:48:12.159 --> 00:48:15.760 And didn't want to tell you talk to you about my dead experience? Are 580 00:48:15.760 --> 00:48:19.719 greatful that? Well, yes, it's a perfect opportunity. I want to 581 00:48:19.760 --> 00:48:23.239 thank Brian Higgins of the wonderful Marenes Jazz Seller, a great little club, 582 00:48:24.039 --> 00:48:29.440 when she knew that I was looking to schedule a guest to have this intelligent 583 00:48:29.519 --> 00:48:31.920 conversation. So, oh, I know a great guy. I know a 584 00:48:31.960 --> 00:48:37.239 guy. You got to talk to this guy, you know? So I 585 00:48:37.440 --> 00:48:40.039 thank her now. And it comes to our dead Heads. Our dead Head 586 00:48:40.039 --> 00:48:46.519 shows on Thursday nights, So thanks to breand and yes, tell us about 587 00:48:46.559 --> 00:48:52.199 the Grateful Dead connection. Please. I really think the Grateful Dead can teach 588 00:48:52.239 --> 00:48:55.480 people how to live in peace. It's a great community experience and I really 589 00:48:55.519 --> 00:49:01.639 have not had anything like it. So part of the challenge of living in 590 00:49:01.679 --> 00:49:09.159 America recently is our loss of community. Everybody is struggling with loneliness, isolation, 591 00:49:09.599 --> 00:49:16.239 not being heard and seen. And some people belong to churches and synagogues 592 00:49:16.239 --> 00:49:20.760 and temples and all of that, and maybe they found community in that. 593 00:49:21.000 --> 00:49:24.400 But I was not really into organized religion. I mean, I think religion 594 00:49:24.440 --> 00:49:30.119 serves a purpose for society, but organized religion didn't work for me. So 595 00:49:30.599 --> 00:49:38.400 I was that I had my last divorce during that year, four years ago, 596 00:49:39.199 --> 00:49:46.559 and my friend told me into going too Marines for one night. So 597 00:49:46.599 --> 00:49:51.199 I went to the jazz club. And I used to have a friend in 598 00:49:51.199 --> 00:49:53.599 the nineties who listened to The Dead in the background, but I never really 599 00:49:53.599 --> 00:49:58.559 allowed myself to fully experience it. I mean, the Dead is not a 600 00:49:58.679 --> 00:50:00.800 song in the radio. You have to really experience. Yes, I hear, 601 00:50:00.880 --> 00:50:04.000 you have to go to a show, you have to wear a taied 602 00:50:04.000 --> 00:50:07.320 eye T shirt, you have to join the group, and eventually you feel 603 00:50:07.360 --> 00:50:13.480 it. I want you to continue the story, but we were teasing with 604 00:50:13.559 --> 00:50:17.000 Neil during a commercial break and giving our grateful deed experiences. My first, 605 00:50:17.000 --> 00:50:22.400 my older sister took me to a Nasshau Coliseum in nineteen seventy to see them, 606 00:50:22.639 --> 00:50:28.559 and my recollection of them was the show was four hours, four songs, 607 00:50:29.199 --> 00:50:34.440 yes, yes, yes, and the rest experience to rub what you 608 00:50:34.559 --> 00:50:37.800 get a kick out. That was my initial grateful ted experience. Yes yes, 609 00:50:38.280 --> 00:50:43.639 so yeah. So I didn't know what the experience was all about. 610 00:50:43.920 --> 00:50:47.119 And I went in the first night and I was wearing bubbly a shirt like 611 00:50:47.159 --> 00:50:52.400 a button up shirt and a pair of pants that was very like formal square 612 00:50:52.400 --> 00:50:54.760 person going to a Dead show. And I'm like, oh my god, 613 00:50:54.800 --> 00:51:00.920 these people are really stuck in the nineteen sixties. And I I so the 614 00:51:00.960 --> 00:51:02.960 first night, I said, but the music is interesting. These guys play 615 00:51:04.000 --> 00:51:09.880 really mean guitars and excellent drumming and good melodies. And then but then also 616 00:51:09.920 --> 00:51:15.679 they're very inconsistent. So the Dead sometimes play a country song followed by an 617 00:51:15.760 --> 00:51:22.559 electronic experimental piece of music followed by a blues song. So most bands play 618 00:51:22.800 --> 00:51:27.199 once perfect type of music. And the Dead was the great American musical experiment 619 00:51:27.519 --> 00:51:30.000 where they listened to anything and everything. So it included some bab Dylla and 620 00:51:30.000 --> 00:51:34.519 the Beatles, the Holman Brothers, and I was, oh, my god, 621 00:51:34.559 --> 00:51:37.639 this is more than just what I used to think it was. So 622 00:51:37.679 --> 00:51:45.280 I started coming to Marines every Thursday non stop for three years, and I 623 00:51:45.360 --> 00:51:54.599 bought the Tied eye T shirt and then I started going had you now two 624 00:51:54.719 --> 00:51:58.840 events a week, three events a week, four events a week. It 625 00:51:58.920 --> 00:52:01.239 became a way of life. But in that way of life, I meet 626 00:52:01.320 --> 00:52:07.480 a lot of really good friends, and there is something bonding about people and 627 00:52:07.800 --> 00:52:10.320 being in that space. And in a way, let's face it, the 628 00:52:10.679 --> 00:52:16.960 sound the dead produces. They create a psychedelic space and psychedelic sound, and 629 00:52:17.079 --> 00:52:23.079 I think human beings have this tendency to enjoy trends. Our ancestors in the 630 00:52:23.079 --> 00:52:30.599 caves during the shaman Stick period had collective groups of drumming and singing and moving 631 00:52:30.639 --> 00:52:35.400 together. I think that's deeply bonding. So going to these events where people 632 00:52:36.079 --> 00:52:39.239 are dancing to the same beat and listening to the same music and having this 633 00:52:39.360 --> 00:52:45.639 bond made me feel much closer to the American experience. I mean, I 634 00:52:45.679 --> 00:52:52.639 have to remind myself also, I'm an immigrant and so much of America as 635 00:52:52.800 --> 00:52:54.880 even though I've been here for thirty five years. I sometimes go to a 636 00:52:54.920 --> 00:52:59.159 party and people are telling a joke about a commercial that used to run in 637 00:52:59.159 --> 00:53:01.280 the eighties, and since I was not here, I don't get the joke. 638 00:53:02.360 --> 00:53:07.440 So most of the time, when I tried to belong to groups, 639 00:53:07.679 --> 00:53:09.440 I do feel like an outside and I think most of us have that experience. 640 00:53:09.840 --> 00:53:15.280 But when I entered the grateful that experience the boundaries were erased and I 641 00:53:15.280 --> 00:53:20.519 felt like I was a member of this thing, full fledged member. So 642 00:53:20.559 --> 00:53:23.480 it was good for me. No, I want your comment on this, 643 00:53:23.599 --> 00:53:29.519 and we'll wrap things up. But you know, I years ago I was 644 00:53:30.119 --> 00:53:34.119 met one of the conventions of shooting for CBS News and I was dealing with 645 00:53:34.639 --> 00:53:39.320 a Portuguese reporter and we were talking before she went on the air, and 646 00:53:39.360 --> 00:53:43.360 one of the things she said to me that has stuck with me all these 647 00:53:43.440 --> 00:53:45.800 years. I had to be good ten fifteen years ago was she said, 648 00:53:45.840 --> 00:53:51.480 you know, we see America as a shining light on a hill. You 649 00:53:51.519 --> 00:53:55.719 guys don't see it that way, but me do. Yeah, are we 650 00:53:57.320 --> 00:54:02.679 still that's a shining light on the city on the hill? I kind of 651 00:54:02.719 --> 00:54:07.800 I'm worried about this. I love America so much. I think it's an 652 00:54:07.800 --> 00:54:13.760 amazing experiment. I've read Jefferson, I've read Washington. I think, Okay, 653 00:54:13.800 --> 00:54:15.800 I understand. First of all, we have a shadow. We did 654 00:54:15.880 --> 00:54:21.400 colonalize this land, and we killed most of the natives, and we brought 655 00:54:21.440 --> 00:54:24.719 slaves from Africa who never wanted to come here to start with. And we 656 00:54:24.840 --> 00:54:29.360 have a dark side as a country. But at the same time, we 657 00:54:29.440 --> 00:54:32.880 do have a light side. We have this idea of opportunity, this idea 658 00:54:34.440 --> 00:54:38.079 I love the America. We used to have this American hopeful spirit, the 659 00:54:38.760 --> 00:54:45.800 attitude of we can do anything, from going to the moon to conquering the 660 00:54:45.840 --> 00:54:49.920 stars. We had this kind of It's a big country, it's a rich 661 00:54:50.000 --> 00:54:55.440 country, and it has an attitude that's inclusive, positive and the foundation of 662 00:54:55.480 --> 00:55:00.239 democracy. I mean, if you ask anybody around the world, do you 663 00:55:00.239 --> 00:55:05.280 want to live under the Chinese regime, a Russian regime, or an American 664 00:55:05.320 --> 00:55:08.960 regime? What do you think they would choose? Oh? But let's face 665 00:55:09.000 --> 00:55:15.360 it, America in the last twenty five years have not been the role model 666 00:55:15.400 --> 00:55:19.599 of democracy and good values. So we made a mess out of Iraq. 667 00:55:20.440 --> 00:55:24.679 We made a mess out of Afghanistan. We are bobbly making a mess out 668 00:55:24.719 --> 00:55:29.159 of the Ukraine because we don't have a very cohesive strategy. I don't know 669 00:55:29.159 --> 00:55:31.320 what's happening with Ukraine. I I can say about this, But we have 670 00:55:31.440 --> 00:55:38.360 also been acting imperial, We've been acting arrogant. We sometimes vote against the 671 00:55:38.360 --> 00:55:42.320 world. When the whole world wants to pass an environmental thing, we say 672 00:55:42.320 --> 00:55:45.639 we don't want it. So slowly, I think the America that I used 673 00:55:45.639 --> 00:55:49.639 to be live in, and the America that I used to dream of, 674 00:55:49.679 --> 00:55:54.519 its potential and its value, it's starting to suffer. And there is nothing 675 00:55:54.599 --> 00:55:59.800 more telling of the suffering than the coming election. And I don't know, 676 00:56:00.400 --> 00:56:05.519 but the reality of the amount of money we're spending on elections is just a 677 00:56:05.599 --> 00:56:10.119 description of how sick our democracy has become. If money is going to rule 678 00:56:10.119 --> 00:56:15.199 our politics, then what kind of democracy do we have? And so I'm 679 00:56:15.239 --> 00:56:17.760 really worried about America. And as much as I love it, I'm really 680 00:56:17.760 --> 00:56:22.840 concerned that are we gonna make it into the twenty first century with a new 681 00:56:22.880 --> 00:56:28.400 attitude of positivity or are we going to start acting like a good, old 682 00:56:28.440 --> 00:56:31.800 tired empire. Well, you're welcome to come back and talk about it. 683 00:56:32.159 --> 00:56:36.239 We just set up our next show. I would love to have you come 684 00:56:36.280 --> 00:56:44.480 on and talk about that. My very special guest Cador Hamid Palestinian. I 685 00:56:44.480 --> 00:56:45.960 got to write this time. You can't see. We don't have video, 686 00:56:46.039 --> 00:56:52.679 but he's not ding like I said, I poechnically fifteen times. Forgive me, 687 00:56:52.000 --> 00:56:55.239 but it's been an absolute pleasure to host you here on Being Frank, 688 00:56:55.280 --> 00:56:59.760 and I'm serious. Please come back again. Happy to talk to you anytime, 689 00:56:59.760 --> 00:57:04.280 Frank pleasure anything you Thanks, and of course we offer special thanks to 690 00:57:04.320 --> 00:57:07.320 our listeners who take the time to give us a voice in their lives. 691 00:57:07.719 --> 00:57:10.119 You know, we offer fresh topic every week. Catch us wherever and whenever 692 00:57:10.199 --> 00:57:14.639 you get your favorite podcasts. You can also check us out on the Hudson 693 00:57:14.719 --> 00:57:19.639 River Radio Facebook page. Like us, leave us a comment and consider sharing 694 00:57:19.760 --> 00:57:22.559 Being Frank with others. You know, I always leave you with two little 695 00:57:22.599 --> 00:57:24.400 things, a slogan and some music. We'll get to the music in a 696 00:57:24.440 --> 00:57:29.039 second, but I want to leave you with a very famous quote I think 697 00:57:29.119 --> 00:57:31.719 is very appropriate for today. It's from Martin Luther King, and the popular 698 00:57:31.800 --> 00:57:37.719 version of it is this darkness cannot drive out darkness. Only light can do 699 00:57:37.840 --> 00:57:42.119 that. Hate cannot drive out drive out hate. Only love can do that. 700 00:57:42.679 --> 00:57:47.400 The actual saying is this, and it's equally beautiful. Returning hate for 701 00:57:49.199 --> 00:57:54.519 hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. 702 00:57:55.079 --> 00:57:58.639 Let's see if we can get those stars back. Hey, we've got some 703 00:57:58.679 --> 00:58:01.480 great music from my friend David Snyder and friends. He's got a bunch of 704 00:58:01.480 --> 00:58:07.199 friends coming to the legendary Turning Point with four great shows beginning Friday, the 705 00:58:07.239 --> 00:58:12.320 twenty fourth of May at the Turning Point in Piermont, New York. And 706 00:58:12.400 --> 00:58:15.639 here's a really great tune, again, very appropriate for our conversation today. 707 00:58:16.000 --> 00:58:21.639 It's both stand up and be counted. For our engineer, Neil Richter. 708 00:58:21.800 --> 00:58:23.719 I'm your host, Frank Lebono, and we hope to have you join us 709 00:58:23.800 --> 00:58:28.159 on the next being. Frank, We're the only way to be is Frank, 710 00:58:28.239 --> 00:59:04.920 take care of everyone waiting for us? What are you waiting for? 711 00:59:06.079 --> 00:59:14.800 Shadow? Everything out? Stand up? Why time is right now? They 712 00:59:15.599 --> 00:59:21.719 shall, I says the yetto je. What you do see a smile of 713 00:59:22.079 --> 00:59:24.400 n your face? It makes it happen to you. Well, what are 714 00:59:24.400 --> 00:59:29.719 you waiting for? You up? And you have dad, what are you 715 00:59:29.840 --> 00:59:35.960 waiting for? Stand up? What are you waiting for? Shut up? 716 00:59:36.159 --> 00:59:43.360 As me, what are you waiting for? Shut yeah? Don stop yet. 717 00:59:45.199 --> 00:59:52.199 When a child, children, brothers shabby were coming and hollering, jot 718 00:59:52.280 --> 01:00:01.199 that shine? So what would be better if we give under the time side 719 01:00:02.960 --> 01:00:40.599 shine joking? Music can stand up? F R S this right now? 720 01:00:42.159 --> 01:00:47.360 Boy? What is that? We got to get it straight. Don't let 721 01:00:47.480 --> 01:00:55.840 them put the bundans just happy to me right a waiting to wake you? 722 01:00:58.599 --> 01:02:06.519 Stand up to waiting step st Hudson River radio dot com