1 00:00:31,559 --> 00:00:35,280 What Up? What Up? What Up? Everybody? Welcome to another episode 2 00:00:35,399 --> 00:00:39,280 Let's Ask Paul the podcast where I, Paul Abernathy, attempt to answer all 3 00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:45,640 of your pressing electrical code related questions submitted through our online portal over at Paul 4 00:00:45,679 --> 00:00:49,600 Abernathy dot com. So thanks for joining me today. It's been a minute 5 00:00:49,640 --> 00:00:53,479 since we've had some podcasts. Things have been very busy, but we're back 6 00:00:53,479 --> 00:00:57,880 in the fold here trying to get caught up on some of these Let's Ask 7 00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:03,359 Paul submissions, and we have a bunch of other things planned. If you 8 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:07,439 haven't heard Cracking the Code, which is a new series that we'll be doing 9 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:12,959 talking about different things in the Code. Started on October fifteenth, so you 10 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:17,879 can go back and re listen or rewatch that over on our YouTube channel. 11 00:01:18,359 --> 00:01:22,920 It will soon be over on our fast Tracks Tube exclusively, but as we 12 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:27,159 agreed, everything's going to run on our free platforms for about a week or 13 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:30,920 two and then it all gets moved over to our exclusive platform. It's just 14 00:01:30,959 --> 00:01:36,920 the what's got to happen. That's what it happens when you have to support 15 00:01:36,959 --> 00:01:40,200 a you know, a paid platform. I mean, that's just it. 16 00:01:40,439 --> 00:01:46,760 I mean, the fast Tracks Tube is our video component, and you know 17 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:49,799 we have to fund it, and this is what it is. So education 18 00:01:49,959 --> 00:01:53,239 isn't cheap. Hey, let's put it that way, all right. So 19 00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:57,480 let's get into today's set of questions here again, all submitted from the portal 20 00:01:57,599 --> 00:02:00,359 over at Paul Abernathy dot com. This is a free service, by the 21 00:02:00,359 --> 00:02:05,239 way, and it's sponsored by Wicks, so it doesn't cost anything for you 22 00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:07,120 to be able to submit questions and get them answered, especially if you have 23 00:02:07,199 --> 00:02:10,560 questions on the National Lectrical Code. All right, So this first one says, 24 00:02:10,599 --> 00:02:14,759 hey, Paul, is it permissible by the twenty seventeen EEC to have 25 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:22,360 three six gang meter packs with no main on one corner of an apartment building 26 00:02:22,479 --> 00:02:28,000 fed from one transformer? Okay, so I'm going to assume you're talking to 27 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:34,400 transformer, let's say, pad mounted transformer. We'll just start with that and 28 00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:38,400 kind of kind of go from there. I guess the first thing I would 29 00:02:38,479 --> 00:02:42,840 say is, let's clarify whether this is one service, because again we have 30 00:02:42,919 --> 00:02:46,800 to go to part one of Article two thirty and that's the general. And 31 00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:51,280 in the general you'll see that we have a two thirty dot two and that 32 00:02:51,479 --> 00:02:54,840 says number of services. Now there are allowances to have more than one, 33 00:02:55,360 --> 00:03:00,960 and those fall under two thirty dot two A through D. And remember I'm 34 00:03:00,960 --> 00:03:04,400 doing the twenty seventeen because that's what was requested. So if you happen to 35 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:07,360 be in another edition where this is expanded and you're thinking, whoa, that's 36 00:03:07,400 --> 00:03:10,840 not what my code says. These questions are for people that submit them. 37 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:16,159 You're just listening to the request and this one was for the twenty seventeen edition 38 00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:21,120 of the NEEC. So make sure we understand where we're at when we have 39 00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:25,120 our little snippy comments. Okay, So two thirty dot two Number of services 40 00:03:25,159 --> 00:03:30,199 in the twenty seventeen edition says a building or other structure served shall be supplied 41 00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:36,199 by only one service, unless permitted in two thirty dot two A through D 42 00:03:37,599 --> 00:03:44,120 for the purpose of two thirty dotty exception number two. Only underground sets of 43 00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:51,599 conductors one at AWG and larger running to the same location and connected together at 44 00:03:51,599 --> 00:03:55,800 their supply end, but not connected together at their load in shall be considered 45 00:03:55,800 --> 00:04:02,599 to be supplying one service. Okay, so in that scenario, you what 46 00:04:02,639 --> 00:04:06,479 you've got is, say a pad mount transformer, you have underground service. 47 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:11,439 Laterals they go over, they come up, and they may hit a set 48 00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:17,040 of meter sockets up to six at six different locations, up to six, 49 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:20,800 right, and so all of that is stuff that we see. The maximum 50 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:25,240 of six is everything we see in two thirty seventy one A and grouping and 51 00:04:25,279 --> 00:04:28,680 all this kind of other stuff. So at the end of the day, 52 00:04:28,759 --> 00:04:31,120 we're gonna have to look at this point we know, okay, So based 53 00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:34,600 on this question and it wasn't defined otherwise, we're going to assume, just 54 00:04:34,639 --> 00:04:39,879 for this one, that it is a pad mount transformer, and all of 55 00:04:39,920 --> 00:04:43,040 them are connected together at the transformer, and then they separate out and they 56 00:04:43,079 --> 00:04:46,639 go to separate locations grouped in the same area of this apartment building. And 57 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:53,399 then of course it hits a six gang meter stack okay, for three different 58 00:04:53,439 --> 00:04:58,319 ones by the way, Okay, So that is and then I would assume 59 00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:00,959 that under each one of these meters there is a there has to be a 60 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:03,720 main breaker, Okay. It would be just pointless to hit a meter stack 61 00:05:03,759 --> 00:05:08,959 and then not have main breakers. So either they're incorporated into the meter, 62 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:13,240 or they immediately come down and hit a disconnect or. Since this is twenty 63 00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:16,439 seventeen, it could be that they run on the side of the building and 64 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:23,000 then on the side of the building end up hitting separate panels nearest point of 65 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:28,160 entry. So again, because this rule wouldn't require any emergency disconnect, that's 66 00:05:28,199 --> 00:05:31,600 didn't come into play until the twenty twenty edition of the e NEC, So 67 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:36,639 we're gonna go with that. So, first of all, if we assume 68 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:42,319 this transformer and it has laterals, then we're gonna assume it's all still considered 69 00:05:42,319 --> 00:05:46,600 a service. Right. What is helpful folks, If you do have Link 70 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:51,199 or you're actually a subscriber to Link and you have that, there is some 71 00:05:51,319 --> 00:05:57,800 nifty illustrations they can kind of give you some visualization if you will. It 72 00:05:57,920 --> 00:06:03,600 kind of helps kind of hammer that home for you. But if you're not 73 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:10,879 familiar with it, then obviously at the end of the day, I'll try 74 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:14,000 to paint you a mental picture if I can. So what you want to 75 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:17,040 do is, at this point, your service is coming to the building. 76 00:06:17,560 --> 00:06:21,560 If it's underground, it directly told us to hey, go look at two 77 00:06:21,560 --> 00:06:26,600 thirty dot forty, exception number two. So that's what we're gonna do. 78 00:06:26,639 --> 00:06:29,519 So we're gonna go to two thirty dot forty hopefully you've got your codebook. 79 00:06:29,879 --> 00:06:33,160 Now, these are service entrance conductors, is what we're talking about. Okay. 80 00:06:33,759 --> 00:06:39,399 So here it says two thirty dot forty. The charging statement says, 81 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:46,600 each service drop, set of overhead service conductors, set of underground service conductors 82 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:56,040 or service lateralskay, shall supply only one set of service entrance conductors. Okay. 83 00:06:56,120 --> 00:07:00,439 So this is talking about once it comes to the building and you have 84 00:07:00,519 --> 00:07:05,160 your your service point, and then it changes over from the lateral, or 85 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:12,879 it changes over from the service drop, and you have service conductors okay, 86 00:07:12,879 --> 00:07:15,720 service entrance conductors that are running on the outside of the building, okay, 87 00:07:16,199 --> 00:07:20,160 and they can run around the outside of the building. So in this case, 88 00:07:20,360 --> 00:07:26,759 it's said, all right, so we have one service to a building. 89 00:07:26,959 --> 00:07:30,319 But remember what it's said about the exception, because that's the charging rule. 90 00:07:30,439 --> 00:07:33,879 But it's said, hey, look at exception number two, and so 91 00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:41,160 this is this isn't an exception to having each service, each lateral, each 92 00:07:41,759 --> 00:07:46,920 overhead surface. These are exceptions to that general rule. And so exception number 93 00:07:46,959 --> 00:07:54,160 two says, hey, we're two to six service distrodecting means and separate enclosures 94 00:07:54,199 --> 00:08:01,920 are grouped at one location and supply separate loads from one service drop, set 95 00:08:01,959 --> 00:08:07,639 of overhead service conductors, set of underground service conductors, or service laterals. 96 00:08:07,439 --> 00:08:15,079 One set of service interconductors shall be permitted to supply each or several such service 97 00:08:15,120 --> 00:08:22,360 equipment enclosures. So in our case, what we're looking at is if you 98 00:08:22,519 --> 00:08:28,360 have a transformer pad. We already were told back in two thirty dot two, 99 00:08:28,639 --> 00:08:33,759 just as extra information, we were already told that in those cases those 100 00:08:33,799 --> 00:08:37,960 service laterals, you could have up to six of them, right, they'd 101 00:08:39,039 --> 00:08:41,879 go to the same common location. In our question, we only had three, 102 00:08:41,919 --> 00:08:45,639 by the way, three sets of six. The maximum number is six, 103 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:48,559 and that has given to us in two thirty dot seventy one, and 104 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:52,759 we'll go look at that to kind of read that. But we're okay as 105 00:08:52,799 --> 00:08:56,320 long as we have up to six. Now, if you were to hit 106 00:08:56,360 --> 00:08:58,600 it and have a main breaker at each one, and then you could you 107 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:01,279 know, you could have six okay with the main breaker, and then you 108 00:09:01,279 --> 00:09:05,759 can have unlimited meters on the load side of that. But yes, so 109 00:09:05,879 --> 00:09:11,000 answer your question quickly is that that is not a problem. If it's coming 110 00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:16,440 from a transformer, then that would be okay. A pad amount of transformer 111 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:20,320 you could have six sets coming out. Also, this exception also applies if 112 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:24,799 it was overhead. If it's an overhead and you have one service drop that's 113 00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:28,919 coming down, but then at the point of attachment it separates right there and 114 00:09:28,039 --> 00:09:35,360 taps there and goes to six separate meter sets right there that doesn't exceed six, 115 00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:41,240 then you're okay there too. But as long as you follow the allowance 116 00:09:41,279 --> 00:09:46,039 of exception number two. Notice that this eception number two doesn't just say service 117 00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:50,000 laterals like we started out right. It also makes a mention of overhead service 118 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:56,639 conductors, which is typically you know, not the service drop, but it 119 00:09:56,799 --> 00:10:00,960 also says service drop in there as well. So as long as you have 120 00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:03,360 one drop coming from a poll, it hits the top where the meters are 121 00:10:03,399 --> 00:10:07,559 located, and then it taps off and you have separate set of service entrance 122 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:11,799 conductors coming down to each set of a maximum of six, then you're okay, 123 00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:16,240 all right, But they have to be grouped in that one location, 124 00:10:16,519 --> 00:10:20,240 and your question says that they're at that one corner of the apartment, So 125 00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:24,440 I'm going to go with they're actually grouped. Okay. Now, as far 126 00:10:24,519 --> 00:10:28,159 as our number of disconnects, you hear me talking about it to thirty dot 127 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:31,480 seventy one. Uh, that is where it tells you the maximum number is 128 00:10:31,480 --> 00:10:37,200 says the service. This nickna means for each service, and we established that 129 00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:43,480 that this was okay for each service permitted by two thirty dot two, or 130 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:50,039 for each set of service entrance conductors permitted by two thirty dot forty exception number 131 00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:54,240 one, number three, number four, or five. Now you notice number 132 00:10:54,240 --> 00:11:00,320 two is different, is not there because that's service laterals and that's our already 133 00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:03,399 been covered into thirty dot two that it was okay to be considered as one. 134 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:09,240 Right. So in this scenario here it goes on to tell us not 135 00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:13,480 more than six switches or set of circuit breakers or a combination of switches and 136 00:11:13,519 --> 00:11:16,720 circuit breakers or what not mounted in that. So that is okay. So 137 00:11:16,759 --> 00:11:22,639 to answer your question, seems like what's being done is perfectly fine. The 138 00:11:22,679 --> 00:11:26,360 code references that we're going to give you again is two thirty dot two. 139 00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:30,960 Okay, So I want you didn't you didn't define whether or not it was 140 00:11:30,960 --> 00:11:33,960 an overhead or whatever. So we're going to tell you two thirty dot two. 141 00:11:35,639 --> 00:11:39,000 Ultimately that's going to send you to two thirty dot forty exception number one 142 00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:41,960 or exception number two, depending on what you're dealing with. But it looks 143 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:46,399 like exception number two is still going to be the one that you're going to 144 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:52,360 be dealing with, right, all right, let's move on to another question. 145 00:11:52,399 --> 00:11:56,840 It would submitted over on the portal. So this is a long one, 146 00:11:56,840 --> 00:11:58,799 so bear with me. It says, Hey, Paul, I'm not 147 00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:03,440 sure if this is something you have went over before, but my question involves 148 00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:07,559 a scenario when you can or cannot downsize a neutral conductor, in particular with 149 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:13,879 RV parks. What is your opinion of what a permanently connected load is? 150 00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:18,960 Okay, so i'll address that. Is this the pedestal, it's pedestal itself, 151 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:22,159 or the RV that would be connected to the pedestal? All right, 152 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:26,639 let me stop there first. Let's say so, in order to be a 153 00:12:26,679 --> 00:12:31,279 permanently connected load, it's got to be an actual load. So it could 154 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:35,279 be some appliance, some equipment, something, But I don't consider the pedestal 155 00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:39,399 to be a load. That's just part of the distribution system. So from 156 00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:45,279 the service equipment at the RV park, it's going to fracture out into feeders 157 00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:48,919 to these different pedestals, And in these pedestals you'll have your Some will have 158 00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:54,679 a fifty amp receptacle, some will have twenty amp receptacles, some will have 159 00:12:54,759 --> 00:12:58,720 even fifteen. I mean, depending on what the requirement is for the receptacles, 160 00:12:58,799 --> 00:13:03,679 and at the different site locations, all covered in five fifty one by 161 00:13:03,679 --> 00:13:09,879 the way. So no, to answer that what I consider a permanent load 162 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:18,399 is something that's being supplied maybe at this site that is something that is actually 163 00:13:18,519 --> 00:13:24,840 a load. I don't ever consider an RV that is transient in nature in 164 00:13:24,919 --> 00:13:28,600 an RV park, not a mobile home park RV park. I really don't 165 00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:35,240 know of anything on there that I would consider permanent load from that aspect of 166 00:13:35,279 --> 00:13:39,120 it. So that's that's my answer for that. And I again I don't 167 00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:45,120 think the pedestal qualifies as a load itself, most certainly not permanent. Also, 168 00:13:46,039 --> 00:13:50,159 just talking about the receptacle aspect of these pedestals, it tells us in 169 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:58,840 five point fifty one seventy two c that the receptacles. It remind you here 170 00:13:58,399 --> 00:14:03,240 that the new conductor shall not be reduced in size below the size of the 171 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:09,919 ungrounded conductors for the site distribution. Right, So we're not going to be 172 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:15,759 reducing any any size there so to me, d is well, let me 173 00:14:15,759 --> 00:14:18,480 read the rest of the question. It says, so my state is still 174 00:14:18,559 --> 00:14:22,200 under the twenty seventeen ne C, so five D is what I'm questioning. 175 00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:30,120 This is also under the distribution system part. Could you please elaborate on that 176 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:35,720 on that sum distribution, I mean typically these parks, you'll have a central 177 00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:41,840 location, uh for lack of a better description. If you're used to a 178 00:14:41,879 --> 00:14:45,840 commercial building, let's say it's it's a distribution to the switch gear. Not 179 00:14:45,919 --> 00:14:48,639 what you're going to get in an RV Park's typically not gonna be switch gear. 180 00:14:48,639 --> 00:14:50,919 But I'm just using that as an analogy. And then from there it's 181 00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:56,759 going to fracture out or branch out into feeders to the different sites on different 182 00:14:56,799 --> 00:15:01,159 locations where you're going to have these pedestals. So that's just all part of 183 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:05,480 the downchain distribution, not thinking any differently than you would in a building where 184 00:15:05,519 --> 00:15:09,919 you have a main gear, and then it kind of heads out to different 185 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:13,000 panels, remote distribution panels, subby panels if you want to call them, 186 00:15:13,519 --> 00:15:20,879 at different locations. It's typically what's getting done here in these these pedestal applications. 187 00:15:22,519 --> 00:15:26,440 So next it goes he goes. For instance, is each pedestal or 188 00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:35,440 the service dis net feeding each pedestal. These are not typically services. Typically 189 00:15:35,559 --> 00:15:41,240 these are RV park sites. Typically what you're going to have is feeders going 190 00:15:41,279 --> 00:15:46,519 out to that. Again, now you can have some what we call an 191 00:15:46,639 --> 00:15:50,000 RV park, which is kind of interesting. Where I have my RV, 192 00:15:50,639 --> 00:15:54,240 which is permanent. By the way, even though it's cordon plug connected, 193 00:15:54,320 --> 00:16:00,159 it's I'm not moving the RV, so it's still I wouldn't classify that obviously 194 00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:03,720 as a permanent load because I can move it at any time. I'm just 195 00:16:03,759 --> 00:16:08,759 choosing not to. It's cord and plug connected. Interesting, there is is 196 00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:15,720 a service at each one of these sites. Because the distribution hits a meter 197 00:16:15,799 --> 00:16:19,120 and then straight out of the meter, it does not have any overcurrent protection. 198 00:16:19,799 --> 00:16:22,840 It goes straight out under and then comes to each site, and so 199 00:16:22,879 --> 00:16:30,080 each site is a service. But typically in a lot of the commercial RV 200 00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:34,039 parks, which is designed simply for transient and again I am not an expert 201 00:16:34,159 --> 00:16:38,840 in RV park design, typically what we would see would be feeders going out 202 00:16:40,879 --> 00:16:45,639 to the different locations. That type of thing. The reason it's done this 203 00:16:45,679 --> 00:16:49,519 way in the park that I'm at is because it's a it's not an RV 204 00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:52,639 park for transient you know, you have to pay an annual fee, and 205 00:16:52,799 --> 00:16:56,320 everybody owns their own you know, have to pay their own meter. Typically 206 00:16:56,399 --> 00:16:59,559 in an RV park, you don't do that, right, You just come 207 00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:03,799 in and and you just stay a night or two nights or a week or 208 00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:07,559 whatnot. You don't pay the electric bill. You just pay your nightly fee 209 00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:11,960 and you just move on. So the meter setup is for the distribution, 210 00:17:12,039 --> 00:17:18,200 it's the whole RV park. So there is a distinction. And people say, 211 00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:21,680 well, aren't you describing where your RV is is a mobile home park. 212 00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:22,960 No, it's not. It's not a mobile home park. It's very 213 00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:30,599 distinctively listed in their charter as an RV resort. And so it just happens 214 00:17:30,599 --> 00:17:34,880 to be that everybody's lot has a meter, so we have services at every 215 00:17:36,359 --> 00:17:41,880 lot. That's not your typical layout for an RV park. Okay, all 216 00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:45,640 right, anyway, so it goes on and says thank you in advance, 217 00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:51,359 thank you in advance if you can get to this question and for all you 218 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:53,599 do for the electrical trade. Well, I don't know I'm answering your question, 219 00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:59,480 but I do thank you for the kudos in You're most certainly welcome. 220 00:18:00,079 --> 00:18:04,839 But again, so talking about D in your question two D, I think 221 00:18:04,839 --> 00:18:10,519 this is only going to apply to line to line permanently connected loads only. 222 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:15,680 So it might be some ancillary load at the that's part of the distribution system. 223 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:21,759 Maybe it's feeding, for example, a common area where you might have 224 00:18:21,799 --> 00:18:26,839 bathrooms or laundryes or whatnot, and that has two forty volt loads that are 225 00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:32,359 permanently fixed. They're not portable, they're not cord and plug, they're actually 226 00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:36,759 permanent, and I think you would treat that like you would any other calculation. 227 00:18:37,279 --> 00:18:41,119 You would make sure the grounded conductor in this case, probably the neutral 228 00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:48,559 is sized minimum to two fifty twenty four D, and then of course ultimately 229 00:18:48,599 --> 00:18:52,839 we're going to be sizing it and making sure that it handles the maximum um 230 00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:56,640 balance load into twenty dot sixty one B and then of course it can't be 231 00:18:56,680 --> 00:19:00,160 smaller than what's in two fifty one zero two. You won the table, 232 00:19:00,519 --> 00:19:06,920 So hopefully that kind of answers that question. That's the best I can honestly 233 00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:10,440 can give you, and the reason for that it makes it very clear for 234 00:19:10,559 --> 00:19:15,519 receptacles that you're not going to reduce the size of the neutral or you know, 235 00:19:17,119 --> 00:19:19,039 it makes it pretty damn clear. And then when you get down to 236 00:19:19,119 --> 00:19:23,720 d it's since it's under distribution system, it's telling me that it's not talking 237 00:19:23,759 --> 00:19:30,480 about the portable applications in the in the permanently connected load only is not going 238 00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:34,279 to apply to the RV itself or even the pedestal, because the pedestal itself 239 00:19:34,319 --> 00:19:38,000 is not a load, so it is just part of the distribution. It 240 00:19:38,119 --> 00:19:44,440 supplies the ability to you know, power these different things that are plugged into 241 00:19:44,519 --> 00:19:49,599 it. So it could be permanently connected to forty volt line to line appliances 242 00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:53,079 or equipment that maybe at each site, maybe added to each site, or 243 00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:57,359 maybe facilities that are on the site that are being fed from the distribution system. 244 00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:00,599 That's where I'm thinking that applies. And of course if I'm wrong, 245 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:06,559 somebody will tell me. But that's the best I can give you on that 246 00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:10,079 one. My friend. Again, I tell people all the time, a 247 00:20:10,079 --> 00:20:12,480 lot of times in this case that it's one of those things that if it's 248 00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:17,839 a building on the site that's being supplied through the same distribution system as the 249 00:20:17,920 --> 00:20:22,200 RV park, just treat it like a normal building and follow all the rules 250 00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:25,920 for sizing your grounded conductor in this case is probably neutral. So sizing your 251 00:20:25,960 --> 00:20:29,960 neutral, follow all the normal rules, and you're going to be fine when 252 00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:34,279 it comes to the receptacles and it comes to the actual pedestals and things like 253 00:20:34,319 --> 00:20:41,160 that. I think that this is a situation where since you're supplying the receptacles 254 00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:45,359 and these are feeders, you want to make sure that you're actually it doesn't 255 00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:52,000 behoove you if you will to have a reduced neutral in those scenarios. Okay, 256 00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:56,519 all right, well, I just want to remind you where it strictly 257 00:20:56,559 --> 00:21:02,799 prohibits the reduction in see for the receiptles, right, and then of course 258 00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:07,319 d allows for a reduction. You have to remember also though, in these 259 00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:11,519 parks, all of these RV sites, the majority of these loads that are 260 00:21:11,519 --> 00:21:15,680 going to be plugging into it are going to be one twenty volt loads, 261 00:21:15,839 --> 00:21:19,000 and so there is going to be a need for this neutral, So reducing 262 00:21:19,039 --> 00:21:25,519 it down could be problematic for the large number of one hundred and twenty volt 263 00:21:25,559 --> 00:21:29,559 loads that are going to be plugged into it. Okay, So again, 264 00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:33,000 as far as I believe. I don't believe to me that anything at an 265 00:21:33,079 --> 00:21:40,960 RV park with the RV itself has anything to do with permanently connected loads only, 266 00:21:41,599 --> 00:21:44,759 right, So that's going to be my take on it. All right, 267 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:48,640 let's see if we got another question. All right, So this question 268 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:52,599 says, Hey, Paul, I've recently started a new job on a federally 269 00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:59,839 owned building. I'm told different things about who the HJ is, if they 270 00:22:00,079 --> 00:22:04,559 use the NEC, which version do they use, and who does inspections are? 271 00:22:04,599 --> 00:22:11,160 They are their inspections. It's kind of a question mark there. And 272 00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:17,240 here's the thing. The authority haveing jurisdiction doesn't always have to be a municipality. 273 00:22:17,319 --> 00:22:22,480 So in a federal job, you could have a administrator. Somebody has 274 00:22:22,519 --> 00:22:26,400 to be the AHJ. If they're going to be using the NEC as a 275 00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:29,160 minimum safety standard to have something to do with it, somebody has to be 276 00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:33,200 assigned, whether it's the person that's ahead of the project, a leader. 277 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:36,759 And that's the question you have to ask. If it was a military installation, 278 00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:38,640 it would either base commander would be the HJ. Of course, you 279 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:42,279 can have deputies under them, just like we have municipal inspectors, and you 280 00:22:42,319 --> 00:22:48,599 have their different inspectors. They are deputies really of the building official or the 281 00:22:48,599 --> 00:22:52,519 building commissioner, depending on your structure. So somebody has to be the HJ. 282 00:22:52,759 --> 00:22:55,880 Now, as far as what addition they're using, that can go all 283 00:22:55,920 --> 00:23:00,240 over the place. It really is something that whoever takes a authority, whoever 284 00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:06,559 everybody's answering to, that is the authority having jurisdiction, whether they like it 285 00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:10,720 or not. Right, that's who it is. And so if they're using 286 00:23:10,759 --> 00:23:15,799 the NEC or at some point, somebody's got to make decisions where the code 287 00:23:15,799 --> 00:23:22,640 will say that it's approved, Well it's approved by the AGEJ. Well who 288 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:26,519 is the AHJ. I can't tell you that, but I can tell you 289 00:23:26,559 --> 00:23:33,200 if they're utilizing the NEC in that federal project, then there's somebody that's in 290 00:23:33,319 --> 00:23:37,200 charge of that project that ultimately is going to be HJ or somebody they designate 291 00:23:37,599 --> 00:23:41,839 as that authority to make those decisions, because those decisions are going to happen. 292 00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:45,359 Now, what cycle they're using, I really you'd have to go in 293 00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:48,359 and find out, because they could say they're using twenty twenty, they could 294 00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:52,960 say they're using twenty seventeen. Hell, they could be archaic and say they're 295 00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:57,279 still on twenty two thousand and five or something. Heaven forbid a federal project 296 00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:00,880 hill. They could be on the two thousand and two God forbid, but 297 00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:03,799 you just don't know. So I wish I could answer that question for you 298 00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:08,960 a little deeper. But again, hj's now when it comes to the National 299 00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:15,640 Electrical Code, in holding somebody's to the fire, I guess we should say 300 00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:22,400 holding somebody to the fire to say who is the AHJ. Well, if 301 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:26,240 you go look at the National Electrical Code and there's an informational note that gives 302 00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:30,720 you some really good information to help answer this question. But the AHJ is 303 00:24:30,759 --> 00:24:36,759 an organization, an office, or an individual responsible for enforcing the requirements of 304 00:24:36,799 --> 00:24:41,799 a code or standard or for a proving equipment. Now we have different applications 305 00:24:41,799 --> 00:24:45,599 where it says that it's a subject to approval by the AGEJ. Well, 306 00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:51,759 somebody has to make that decision, or some association or organization or something has 307 00:24:51,799 --> 00:24:55,599 to make that decision. And if it's a federal project, I would think 308 00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:59,119 whoever is in charge of the project, there's got to be that guy or 309 00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:03,640 that girl that is in charge of the of the project, and there's going 310 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:07,039 to be uses of different materials, different installations, and different procedures that somebody 311 00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:11,400 is going to have to make a decision. Unfortunately, the nec is is 312 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:15,599 you know, people like when I say this, it's it's it's not gray, 313 00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:19,960 but it's not necessarily black and white. Sometimes it's shades of hmmm, 314 00:25:22,319 --> 00:25:26,799 And you're gonna need that extra level of interpretation. So somebody's got to help 315 00:25:26,839 --> 00:25:30,000 with that. That's what the HJ does, right. So at the end 316 00:25:30,039 --> 00:25:33,960 of the day, all I can tell you is do your due diligence and 317 00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:37,279 try to find out who you answer to, who they answer to, and 318 00:25:37,799 --> 00:25:41,759 h and follow it up to change with somebody's going to be the one that's 319 00:25:41,799 --> 00:25:45,279 responsible. Some people don't want to accept responsibility at all anyway. But if 320 00:25:45,279 --> 00:25:49,200 you read the informational note, it's quite interesting. It says the phrase authority 321 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:55,960 of a jurisdiction or its acronym, the AHJ, is used in n FPA 322 00:25:56,119 --> 00:26:02,519 documents in a broad manner, since jurisdictions and agencies vary, as do their 323 00:26:02,599 --> 00:26:08,319 responsibilities. Where public safety is primary, the authority having jurisdiction may be federal, 324 00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:14,440 state, local, or other regional department, or individual such as a 325 00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:19,720 fire chief of fire marshal chief of the fire Prevention bureau, maybe Labor department 326 00:26:19,799 --> 00:26:26,160 or health department, building officials, electrical inspectors, or others having statutory authority. 327 00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:30,000 Those are to be the ones that are going to have to take that 328 00:26:30,039 --> 00:26:33,799 responsibility. Now you're going to have to ferret that out. For insurance purposes, 329 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:41,039 an insurance inspector, department, ratings bureau, or other insurance company representing 330 00:26:41,279 --> 00:26:45,240 may be the authority haveing jurisdiction, depending on the context of what we're looking 331 00:26:45,279 --> 00:26:48,960 at. So all of this, and it also says in many circumstances, 332 00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:55,039 the property owner or his or her designated agent assumes the role of authority having 333 00:26:55,119 --> 00:27:02,960 jurisdiction. A government installations, a commanding officer or departmental official maybe the authority 334 00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:07,119 having jurisdiction. So you're gonna have to ferret somebody out. Somebody's going to 335 00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:10,920 have to make those decisions. Hopefully you have a job where you don't have 336 00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:12,839 to have anybody make those decisions, as Heaven forbid. You want people making 337 00:27:12,839 --> 00:27:17,759 decisions that don't have a clue. But it can happen. It can happen. 338 00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:19,480 So that's the best advice I can give you. Ferret that out. 339 00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:22,799 A little bit, see who you answer to, who the person you answer 340 00:27:22,839 --> 00:27:26,599 to answers to, and kind of follow that backwards till you can get somebody 341 00:27:26,599 --> 00:27:32,599 that's going to be that authority figure. But again, don't be afraid to 342 00:27:32,599 --> 00:27:37,319 go and throw Article one hundred, the definition of authority having jurisdiction, right 343 00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:41,519 down in their face and say, dude, somebody is going to have to 344 00:27:41,519 --> 00:27:44,119 make the decision, because as sure as hell, ain't going to be me 345 00:27:44,279 --> 00:27:47,799 when it comes to those decisions that could get me fired or what not. 346 00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:55,119 You know what I'm saying. Also, it's probably a decent time to you 347 00:27:55,160 --> 00:28:00,839 know, mention things like article ninety and in four and things like that. 348 00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:07,519 In that's where it's going to tell you that this code is intended to be 349 00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:15,519 suitable for mandatory application by governmental bodies that exercise legal jurisdiction over electrical installations, 350 00:28:15,559 --> 00:28:21,960 including signaling and communication systems, and for use by insurance inspectors. The authority 351 00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:23,680 ev in jurisdiction. Okay, that you need that word, so we had 352 00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:32,200 to define it. For enforcement of the code has the responsibility for making interpretations 353 00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:37,039 of the rule, for deciding on approval of equipment or materials, and for 354 00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:45,160 granting the special permission contemplated in a number of the rules. So there's so 355 00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:51,119 many things here that they have to take responsibility for. So yeah, make 356 00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:56,200 sure that you find out who that is. And remember anything you get in 357 00:28:56,240 --> 00:29:00,319 special permission is written consent. Okay, get it in writing. I'll just 358 00:29:00,359 --> 00:29:03,920 take somebody's word for it, Okay, all right, all right, anyway, 359 00:29:03,279 --> 00:29:08,200 hopefully it answers that question. Ferret it out, go up the chain, 360 00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:12,039 rattle some cages a little bit. You'll find out who the big dog 361 00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:17,680 is. Okay, what's next? All right? So this question was submitted, 362 00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:19,599 and I think I already answered this question, but I think I was 363 00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:23,559 I think I was wrong in a sense at how I answered it, and 364 00:29:23,599 --> 00:29:27,480 I tried to use a little common sense in the approach to answering it. 365 00:29:27,559 --> 00:29:33,400 So if the individual out there that submitted this one, I, you know, 366 00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:37,519 I tried to give what I thought based on the size of these motors. 367 00:29:37,519 --> 00:29:40,160 But I'm gonna have to I'm gonna have to back up a little bit 368 00:29:41,319 --> 00:29:47,480 when it comes to this dealing with with overload protection. So the original question, 369 00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:49,039 by the way, I have to go back to the original question that 370 00:29:49,119 --> 00:29:56,559 was submitted. It says can I use the same motor starter in overloads for 371 00:29:56,720 --> 00:30:02,920 two half horsepower for one hundred eighty OO three phase motors running exhaust fans, 372 00:30:03,559 --> 00:30:08,799 I assume no. However, my programmer is saying it is okay, okay. 373 00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:14,680 So now I gave a response to that to the individual, saying, 374 00:30:14,759 --> 00:30:19,480 well, basically, you're you're talking about and I can't remember what my response 375 00:30:19,559 --> 00:30:22,799 is. I said, so the combined load that we were dealing with was 376 00:30:22,839 --> 00:30:26,160 one point one amps times too, so the total was two point two amps. 377 00:30:27,799 --> 00:30:32,599 And nothing was ever stated about ANIMA starter. It wasn't nothing was really 378 00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:38,519 said, what the anything, the ratings were in anything. So my general 379 00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:44,200 response was I didn't see a problem with it, although these are two separate 380 00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:51,440 motors, and the original question was about the overloads, and so I'm thinking 381 00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:55,680 this is so low of amount. But here's the problem. Here's the problem. 382 00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:59,839 And they came back with more information, and so here's what it says. 383 00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:03,000 Sorry, good morning, Paul. So here's a little more detail. 384 00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:08,279 It says a contractor in the state of Iowa wired two foreigner nivil half horsepower 385 00:31:08,359 --> 00:31:15,799 exhaust vans to an existing size zero motor starter in an MCC bucket using the 386 00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:22,599 same overloads to protect two motors. I was under the impression that you cannot 387 00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:27,440 protect multiple motors with one motor overload. Also, I need to get my 388 00:31:27,519 --> 00:31:32,599 master's license in the state of Minnesota, and I'm interested in exam prep. 389 00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:34,480 Which one of your courses would you suggest? Okay, let me answer the 390 00:31:34,559 --> 00:31:40,119 question first, So if I have to be a purist on this and answer 391 00:31:40,119 --> 00:31:44,519 the question now, do I think that these are really small loads? Okay? 392 00:31:45,359 --> 00:31:52,200 And I think that the overload was adequate for one motor, and I 393 00:31:52,279 --> 00:31:59,759 think that the overload is probably adequate for two motors, although I am going 394 00:31:59,799 --> 00:32:04,480 to have to defer to the NEC. So the NEC is talking about and 395 00:32:04,519 --> 00:32:07,000 where we would be in the NEC, and he didn't say what addition he's 396 00:32:07,039 --> 00:32:10,160 in, and I don't want to go figuring what the state is there. 397 00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:15,279 Where we'd be looking at is four to thirty dot thirty two, and we 398 00:32:15,319 --> 00:32:20,240 wouldn't be looking at a for that's more than one horse power. If that 399 00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:24,960 was the case, then each motor has to have a separate overload straightforward, 400 00:32:25,359 --> 00:32:30,279 right In this case, these motors are less than one, so you would 401 00:32:30,319 --> 00:32:34,559 go to B which it says one horse power or less. Of course, 402 00:32:34,599 --> 00:32:38,880 these were half. It says any motor of one horse power or less that 403 00:32:39,039 --> 00:32:45,359 is started automatically shall be protected against overload by one of the following means. 404 00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:52,039 So the very first one says separate overload devices. It says by a separate 405 00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:58,759 overload device following the requirements of four to thirty dot thirty two A one well 406 00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:07,119 A one one says a separate overload device that is responsible responsive to motor current 407 00:33:07,599 --> 00:33:13,359 right, and then A itself says each motor using a continuous duty and ready 408 00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:16,519 more than one shall be protected against overload by one of the following means. 409 00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:21,720 So I don't see anything in here directly that that says that I can take 410 00:33:21,799 --> 00:33:25,359 one overload and protect multiple motors. I think the intent here is to have 411 00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:30,759 separate over Now, the problem that you run into, and we really didn't 412 00:33:30,559 --> 00:33:36,680 really just discuss it, is that each motor, although these two motors are 413 00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:42,680 identical, you do have situations where in this case, both motors are probably 414 00:33:42,759 --> 00:33:45,559 going to run. They're just exhaust fans, and they don't have issues where 415 00:33:45,599 --> 00:33:49,759 one's going to be running harder than the other. They're just exhaust fans. 416 00:33:49,759 --> 00:33:52,319 So I think that's why they probably said, look, we'll just take the 417 00:33:52,359 --> 00:33:59,880 overload and obviously, if it's size adequate to handle the one motor and it's 418 00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:04,359 too large, that it actually based on the starter size or the overload size 419 00:34:04,359 --> 00:34:07,440 that it can handle too. I think that's a decision they made in that 420 00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:13,480 I think that they will still be protected based on the size that you gave. 421 00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:17,679 But you know, at the end of the day, if we were 422 00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:24,039 to follow the code, it really does say that each motor should have its 423 00:34:24,079 --> 00:34:30,239 own overload, okay. You know. Also just to bear in mind that 424 00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:36,400 some of these these motors have may have what's called thermal protectors built into them 425 00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:39,760 that is okay, as well, they may have something that's integrated with the 426 00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:46,519 motor at as well. So there is other options. But if we go 427 00:34:46,559 --> 00:34:51,679 by the letter of the code the way it says it, and for that 428 00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:58,400 case, since it's sending me back because of the separate overload, it's ultimately 429 00:34:59,199 --> 00:35:02,760 would be sending back to four thirty thirty two A one and that again as 430 00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:08,840 separate overload devices. So it would intend that each motor have a separate overload. 431 00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:14,880 I'm gonna you know, I'm gonna have to punt this one and sit 432 00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:19,920 there and say that I think that you looked at the size zero motor starter, 433 00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:23,599 right, and I think that should you know mention that if you look 434 00:35:23,639 --> 00:35:30,119 at a size zero motor starter, it typically can handle up to eighteen amps 435 00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:35,519 of a motor operation at six hundred volts. But here's what I'm gonna tell 436 00:35:35,519 --> 00:35:39,599 you. I encourage you to call the experts, reach out to the motor 437 00:35:39,639 --> 00:35:45,000 starter manufacturer that should be on the equipment. It might be a I don't 438 00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:49,519 know one of the manufacturers. And again there's this it's ANIMA rating, but 439 00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:54,199 Schneider makes them different ones and should have it on there and reach out to 440 00:35:54,239 --> 00:36:00,800 them and give them the scenario you're dealing with. I'm being honest with you. 441 00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:05,960 I think that this is for the starter. It's far below what that 442 00:36:06,079 --> 00:36:12,000 starter is rated for. So that's not a problem the starter. The overload 443 00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:17,760 thing that we're concerned is is will the overloads and I don't know which ones 444 00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:22,239 they are, I don't know what they're designed for. Will the overloads be 445 00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:29,840 able to handle these two small exhaust fans? Probably, and so that's probably 446 00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:34,000 why they designed it, and they said it's okay, that's fine. The 447 00:36:34,079 --> 00:36:38,840 question you really have to ask is because these exhaust fans are identical. This 448 00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:44,400 would not be the same if we had two separate motors with different potential characteristics 449 00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:49,119 of the loading on the motor. These are just fans, So I think 450 00:36:49,159 --> 00:36:52,360 in this scenario, you combine these two fans as one, and take the 451 00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:58,360 value for the fans from the nameplate as one and treat it as one motor, 452 00:37:00,159 --> 00:37:02,559 you know, summation, and then see if the overload is adequate or 453 00:37:02,559 --> 00:37:07,599 if that's what it would be sizing for that motor based on you know, 454 00:37:08,639 --> 00:37:12,400 I guess it would be one horsepower because these are two half horsepower, so 455 00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:15,360 based it on one horsepower, and if it would be an adequate overload for 456 00:37:15,519 --> 00:37:21,199 one motor at one horse power, then I think you're probably gonna be fine 457 00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:25,320 practically speaking, as far as any c though is concerned, it's pretty clear 458 00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:31,760 that it would like to have separate overloads for each motor. So if you're 459 00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:37,039 going to tackle it from a code perspective, then I think you have to 460 00:37:37,119 --> 00:37:38,079 you have to go in it from that and say, hey, dude, 461 00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:40,440 it says each one needs to have it. I know you're trying to save 462 00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:44,920 a buck or two, but it says each one has to have an overload 463 00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:51,119 again, so that's how I would tackle it. And if they've done the 464 00:37:51,159 --> 00:37:53,440 math and they're above you, and they're the ones that are in control, 465 00:37:53,519 --> 00:37:57,079 and they're the ones that are making decisions and they tell you, now, 466 00:37:57,159 --> 00:38:00,880 dude, we're just going to use one. It's fine, and they've done 467 00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:05,760 all their due diligence, then it depends on whether or not you want to 468 00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:09,440 be the squeaky wheel. Okay, but that's the best device I can give 469 00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:15,559 you on that. But if we're following purely the National Electrical Code, right, 470 00:38:15,679 --> 00:38:19,039 then we have to look at four thirty thirty two and in your case, 471 00:38:20,039 --> 00:38:24,000 we have to look at B and we look at B and at that 472 00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:30,199 point it tells us separate overload devices and B one and it says by separate 473 00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:35,280 overload devices okay for the motors. So that means each one would have to 474 00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:39,639 have one. And thank you for asking us sending the additional clarification. It 475 00:38:39,679 --> 00:38:44,400 did help me and being able to look at that and then being able to 476 00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:47,719 sit down and look at the NEC for you. I appreciate that. And 477 00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:52,119 again, if anybody has any additional insight that you want to give to this, 478 00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:55,480 maybe you're familiar with working on things like this, and you know the 479 00:38:55,519 --> 00:39:01,840 scenario that's being done, then feel free to reply to this at Paul Abernathy 480 00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:07,000 dot com. Give the episode and let me know. Okay, all right, 481 00:39:07,039 --> 00:39:09,519 let's see if we got anything else. Okay, so this one says, 482 00:39:09,639 --> 00:39:14,800 I can't message you on TikTok anymore. Oh wait a minute, Wait 483 00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:16,639 a minute, wait a minute. To the gentleman's previous question, I did 484 00:39:16,679 --> 00:39:21,320 not. I am sorry. I did not meet the second part of your 485 00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:27,840 question. So, if you're preparing for an electrical exam in whatever state you're 486 00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:31,199 in, we definitely recommend our fast Tracks Black, which is our base program, 487 00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:37,239 or the fast Tracks Plus. The only difference in those is that the 488 00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:40,159 Plus gives you access to some videos that are over on fast Tracks Tubes. 489 00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:44,599 You get a year subscription of that platform as well. You don't need it 490 00:39:44,639 --> 00:39:50,239 for exam prep. Black does fine, and we will grade all your competencies 491 00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:52,960 and whatnot, and you will, believe me, learn what you need. 492 00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:58,280 And I promise you most exams are not going to have questions like what you 493 00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:02,199 submitted today, So don't worry about that scenario where you're in dealing with that, 494 00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:07,800 but definitely check it out. On our website fastracksystem dot com and go 495 00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:10,159 look at the fasttracks black. We have a demo and if you decide you 496 00:40:10,199 --> 00:40:15,800 want to also watch some videos that from me and other educators, then you'll 497 00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:19,440 just get the plus and that just gives you access to the video platform as 498 00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:22,519 well. You don't need it, but if you want it, it's there 499 00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:25,360 and it's an option for you. Okay, sorry about that. I wanted 500 00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:29,840 to make sure I answered all of your questions. So the next one's question 501 00:40:30,159 --> 00:40:32,639 was, oh, it says I can't message you on TikTok anymore. I 502 00:40:32,679 --> 00:40:37,320 didn't quote you in my video as a guy I spoke with at the trade 503 00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:40,280 show because you gave me pretty good, thorough answer and I didn't want to 504 00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:45,400 try to quote you and mess it up you. Also, you blocked people 505 00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:50,519 from tagging you, so I thought you didn't want to get involved. Okay, 506 00:40:50,599 --> 00:40:54,800 so this is about TikTok. I don't allow stupid comments on TikTok anymore. 507 00:40:54,880 --> 00:41:00,079 People just derail a discussion quick as shit. So I just it just 508 00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:06,199 it's not my platform, it's not my gig. You know, it's it's 509 00:41:06,519 --> 00:41:09,440 just not you know, it's not my jam. Okay, I use honey, 510 00:41:09,639 --> 00:41:14,000 I kiss it on the lips. Okay, that was my Gary Busey 511 00:41:14,039 --> 00:41:17,559 impression. So I I just don't use the TikTok that much. So it's 512 00:41:17,559 --> 00:41:21,440 not a big platform of mine, so I don't really allow that kind of 513 00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:25,679 interaction on it. But what what the gentleman was talking about was I was 514 00:41:25,719 --> 00:41:30,639 at the NIKA trade show and people would come by and get selfies and I 515 00:41:30,679 --> 00:41:34,840 would sign some stuff, and then I answer questions for different people. So 516 00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:40,360 an individual who has an account over on TikTok, I guess it's easier to 517 00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:45,960 say Steven one twenty, he's over on TikTok. Usually I keep these ask 518 00:41:45,039 --> 00:41:50,960 Paul one's anonymous, but Steven gets you some get you some followers over there 519 00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:53,079 on the TikTok. Steven one twenty, he's doing some neat things. But 520 00:41:53,159 --> 00:41:59,360 the question came up about afcies, and uh, I kind of explained to 521 00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:05,119 him the characteristics what afcis we're looking for. They're not perfect. And so 522 00:42:05,239 --> 00:42:08,440 when people do a demo and they drag a conductor across terminals and they're arcing 523 00:42:09,239 --> 00:42:14,400 because of the moving nature, because of it's not you're just moving it back 524 00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:19,719 and forth to create an arc. That's not the really the characteristic that the 525 00:42:20,079 --> 00:42:24,400 afcis are looking for. Again, they are not perfect, and you would 526 00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:29,320 really have to look at UIL sixteen ninety nine and sixteen ninety nine A to 527 00:42:30,239 --> 00:42:32,320 get a better understanding of what afcis are looking for. I'm gonna be honest 528 00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:36,800 with you. I tell people this. I've done podcasts on this. I 529 00:42:36,840 --> 00:42:43,519 am not a hundred percent in the AFCI camp. Okay, I think originally 530 00:42:44,039 --> 00:42:50,360 some of the claims are bs. But do they have merit? Yes? 531 00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:57,719 Does the technology that we're that they're utilizing has it found issues? Yes? 532 00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:00,840 In fact it could have. It didn't. It could have found an issue 533 00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:05,119 in a house that I wired years ago. If that was before AFCIES, 534 00:43:05,559 --> 00:43:07,280 that I think that it would have found it. I just happened to find 535 00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:10,559 it because I was opening it up because the customer wanted to move some recess 536 00:43:12,199 --> 00:43:15,079 and I found where a nail was driven through the non metallic sheets cable. 537 00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:19,679 It may or may not cause the problem, it may or may not trip. 538 00:43:19,719 --> 00:43:22,960 Then AFCI, they weren't required back then. That kind of date me 539 00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:27,719 a little bit there. And it was in Virginia anyway, So Virginia had 540 00:43:27,719 --> 00:43:31,719 some amendments that pull it out for one family dwellings. But at the end 541 00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:36,599 of the day, I think it would have detected it because it wouldn't have 542 00:43:36,599 --> 00:43:38,039 been one of those arcs where you're just kind of jiggling back and forth. 543 00:43:38,079 --> 00:43:40,679 It would have been an ARC that would have been very load dependent, and 544 00:43:40,719 --> 00:43:45,960 as the load increases, then the arc would have jumped and it would have 545 00:43:45,119 --> 00:43:52,840 been something that was an arc that was generated through the damage, and it 546 00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:55,519 would have detected it. At least I hope it would have detected it, 547 00:43:55,559 --> 00:44:00,480 because that's the whole point. Now, what does bother me? And I 548 00:44:00,519 --> 00:44:02,840 gave you Steven some insight on how to do some testings and he's run with 549 00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:06,519 it. Now he gets obsessed with those things. And I think it's awesome 550 00:44:07,599 --> 00:44:13,599 because people need to see it. And my guess was the manufacturers have folks 551 00:44:13,639 --> 00:44:16,960 out there who are in the know. They're part of these test groups. 552 00:44:17,159 --> 00:44:21,159 They understand it. And if they ever get past the sales piece, you 553 00:44:21,199 --> 00:44:24,440 know, just trying to be the mouthpiece for sales, which I wish they 554 00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:30,239 would just get past being a salesman, yep. And why don't you address 555 00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:37,400 the issues, like why don't you the experts come in and say, well, 556 00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:39,519 you're not gonna detect it based on you jiggling it like that, or 557 00:44:39,559 --> 00:44:44,159 you're gonna I wish they would speak up, but the problem is they're scared 558 00:44:44,199 --> 00:44:47,960 to speak up, and their companies won't let them speak up because it might 559 00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:53,960 have somebody like that who shows something or says something and next thing you know, 560 00:44:54,039 --> 00:44:59,039 it shines negatively on the manufacturers. And yes, they're stumping to get 561 00:44:59,079 --> 00:45:02,320 AFC isaac's GFC is expanded, YadA YadA, and it's not going to look 562 00:45:02,320 --> 00:45:07,199 good to them. I know that sucks. And that does not mean that 563 00:45:07,239 --> 00:45:09,679 they have undue influence on a code panel. That just means that they're not 564 00:45:09,719 --> 00:45:14,280 putting out information out there that can come back to haunt them. And so 565 00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:19,679 I am not one hundred percent folks in the camp of AFCIS. Don't get 566 00:45:19,719 --> 00:45:22,039 me wrong. I am not one hundred percent in that camp. But I 567 00:45:22,239 --> 00:45:27,480 know that they're in the NEC and that ship has sailed. So whether I 568 00:45:27,599 --> 00:45:30,280 like it or not, we're going to have to use them. It just 569 00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:34,679 is what it is. So that's my thought on that. But thanks for 570 00:45:34,719 --> 00:45:37,920 Steven for that. And I think I have recently unlocked so at least you 571 00:45:37,960 --> 00:45:43,840 can contact me on TikTok so, but that I'm not allowing people to post 572 00:45:43,880 --> 00:45:46,960 comments that type of thing. I'm pretty much done with that, Okay, 573 00:45:47,199 --> 00:45:51,719 I think we have time for one more and I'm not sure if there's a 574 00:45:51,840 --> 00:45:54,840 question in here or not, but again, I like to address it and 575 00:45:54,840 --> 00:45:58,719 people that go out of their way to take the time to send me something 576 00:45:58,719 --> 00:46:00,199 at Paul Abernethy dot com, Dude, I want to make sure I answer 577 00:46:00,239 --> 00:46:04,440 these questions. This is a longer podcast than I normally do, so I'm 578 00:46:04,519 --> 00:46:07,880 jacked up on coffee, so all right, says hello, Paul. I 579 00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:13,400 have eighteen years in the electrical of electrical experience. I have my contractor's license 580 00:46:13,480 --> 00:46:19,360 in New Mexico, my master's license in Louisiana. I also have worked as 581 00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:24,440 a licensed journeyman in Texas and Colorado. I recently have learned about asbestos hazards 582 00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:30,280 in some of the older electrical systems that we often are demoing and replacing. 583 00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:36,880 I know that I have been exposed to asbestos, silica, and a plethora 584 00:46:37,039 --> 00:46:43,800 of other fibers hazards. Okay, many of these companies I worked for knowingly 585 00:46:44,239 --> 00:46:50,320 have exposed to me and others to workplace hazards along with unnecessary hot work. 586 00:46:50,599 --> 00:46:53,159 Okay, so seventy e issues there. It says, at the age of 587 00:46:53,199 --> 00:47:00,840 thirty eight, I have constant tonightis from running a large hammer drills and chipping 588 00:47:00,840 --> 00:47:07,320 hammers, and sadly, I have never been as concerned with safety as I 589 00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:12,800 am now as my as my own contractor, as being a contractor, hopefully 590 00:47:13,400 --> 00:47:20,039 you carry those same concerns over to your employees because obviously hammer drills are they 591 00:47:20,039 --> 00:47:22,800 what they are? All these things that are repetitive motion stuff is what it 592 00:47:22,960 --> 00:47:28,559 is. You know, I have carpal tunnel from the years of contracting, 593 00:47:28,679 --> 00:47:31,679 so I get it. There are these issues that we, you know, 594 00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:36,639 have to be aware of. So hopefully you keep that concern for your employees 595 00:47:36,679 --> 00:47:42,519 as well. Is a concern for you obviously, I said, what are 596 00:47:42,639 --> 00:47:47,199 ways to recognize asbestos and some other less popular hazards in the workplace? Also 597 00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:54,679 what our service equipment to buildings? Also what are services equipment to build into 598 00:47:54,760 --> 00:48:00,400 my projects in the future to minimize eliminating these hazards. This is the first 599 00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:05,920 part of this question. Okay, you know, I don't know. My 600 00:48:06,079 --> 00:48:13,880 best advice would be to get a hold of some training from OSHA. So 601 00:48:14,079 --> 00:48:21,159 OSHA has training identifying hazard's material things like that. So I would reach out 602 00:48:21,199 --> 00:48:24,599 to some training program and really let them know that you have a concern with 603 00:48:25,480 --> 00:48:30,000 exposure and maintaining, you know, looking at future exposure. I think one 604 00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:34,760 of the biggest things about it is understanding the years or date of construction, 605 00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:43,159 and you know, you can really get educated on how to identify potential hazards 606 00:48:43,239 --> 00:48:46,719 asbestos, what it looks like, where the potential locations it could be uh 607 00:48:46,760 --> 00:48:52,000 and then step back and report that to somebody of your concern and then they 608 00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:57,800 can come in and test the material. You have the EPA as well, 609 00:48:57,840 --> 00:49:01,440 who does a lot of training Environmental protection agency that you can reach out to 610 00:49:01,559 --> 00:49:06,440 and see if they have anything for construction. I also tell you Google can 611 00:49:06,480 --> 00:49:14,599 be your friend if you type in things like recognizing hazardous construction Environments Google. 612 00:49:14,599 --> 00:49:21,719 Believe it or not, today that that thing is so vastly expansive when it 613 00:49:21,760 --> 00:49:24,800 comes to the ability to get information that you would be surprised what you could 614 00:49:24,800 --> 00:49:31,480 pull up. But I don't have any direct recommendation other than seventy NPA seventy 615 00:49:32,239 --> 00:49:37,519 E maybe, although that's workplace environment. But that's going to address some of 616 00:49:37,559 --> 00:49:42,639 your other issues. Reach out to the EPA, reach out to OSHA and 617 00:49:42,679 --> 00:49:45,519 see what they say in some of their documents. That's the best advice I 618 00:49:45,519 --> 00:49:49,199 can give you. It goes on to say, just a flex, I 619 00:49:49,360 --> 00:49:54,159 passed all four sections of the New Mexico Contractors Licensed Tests and the Louisiana Master's 620 00:49:54,199 --> 00:50:00,280 Electrician Tests in the first shot. Okay, hold on for you. Congratulations, 621 00:50:00,320 --> 00:50:06,000 but I have already learned loads of info from your podcast in the past 622 00:50:06,039 --> 00:50:09,360 couple months. Well great, I'm glad you're listening. I know that your 623 00:50:09,440 --> 00:50:15,320 podcast and courses really could have increased my scores even more. I also have 624 00:50:15,519 --> 00:50:21,480 been recommending them to others in the trade that are getting ready to break tests 625 00:50:21,480 --> 00:50:24,719 out. Thanks in advance for your response. Well, thank you for the 626 00:50:24,920 --> 00:50:30,599 email. Thank you for your years of service in our industry. I'm sorry 627 00:50:30,639 --> 00:50:34,119 to hear about the different conditions that you were forced to work under. And 628 00:50:34,280 --> 00:50:37,960 I think that there are class action lawsuits that are out there for as Festus 629 00:50:38,079 --> 00:50:43,800 exposure. Check those out if you feel if it has affected you. I 630 00:50:43,840 --> 00:50:47,840 think in the construction industry, a lot of us early on because we didn't 631 00:50:47,840 --> 00:50:52,039 know what we didn't know right, and so reaching out to Oshow, reaching 632 00:50:52,079 --> 00:50:58,960 out to EPA, things like that, using Google to just kind of ask 633 00:50:59,199 --> 00:51:02,199 normal search is to try to educate ourselves on what's out there. I think 634 00:51:02,239 --> 00:51:06,440 you'll find a lot of information out there. I'm sorry I don't have any 635 00:51:06,480 --> 00:51:12,519 directly to send you so, but again, congratulations on your success. Like 636 00:51:12,559 --> 00:51:16,480 I said, I have the aftering effects of working in the trade. I 637 00:51:16,519 --> 00:51:20,119 love it when people say, Paul, you probably never worked in the trade. 638 00:51:20,239 --> 00:51:22,519 It just shows you they ain't got a clue what they're talking about, 639 00:51:22,559 --> 00:51:25,239 because I couldn't talk about a lot of this stuff unless I did. But 640 00:51:25,280 --> 00:51:28,719 that's okay. You know people want to do that all the time, and 641 00:51:28,760 --> 00:51:32,039 that's fine. But again, you have the aftering effects of working in this 642 00:51:32,159 --> 00:51:36,960 trade and being exposed to certain things. And I think today we're probably a 643 00:51:37,000 --> 00:51:42,039 little more wiser about the work environments that we're forced to work in now. 644 00:51:42,079 --> 00:51:45,800 Being forced to work on something hot, that is another problem. That's a 645 00:51:45,840 --> 00:51:50,440 seventy e thing. That is something where every situation should be put in a 646 00:51:50,480 --> 00:51:53,159 safe environment. You should not be required to work on something hot unless it 647 00:51:53,280 --> 00:52:00,079 creates a greater hazard in shutting something down. Maybe like a life support system 648 00:52:00,159 --> 00:52:05,079 in a hospital or whatever, and so there's usually ways to bypass that or 649 00:52:05,119 --> 00:52:09,119 secondary power something to do in order to make sure that there's that continuity of 650 00:52:09,159 --> 00:52:15,480 power. But just working on stuff hot, I know there's a people want 651 00:52:15,519 --> 00:52:17,199 to bang their chest and they love working on stuff hot, and that's you. 652 00:52:17,679 --> 00:52:21,320 Then go for it. For me, I think it's just as easy 653 00:52:21,360 --> 00:52:24,039 to disconnect it that way. I don't have any restrictions on me working on 654 00:52:24,079 --> 00:52:28,199 something, putting into a safe condition, and then doing what I need to 655 00:52:28,199 --> 00:52:30,239 do, and then getting away and then energizing it again. I mean, 656 00:52:30,280 --> 00:52:32,960 that's just my approach to it. I don't have to be a hero to 657 00:52:34,000 --> 00:52:37,400 anybody. And I think you've come to that conclusion as well, and so 658 00:52:37,559 --> 00:52:40,960 good luck to you, and thanks for sending in your question. All right, 659 00:52:42,000 --> 00:52:45,760 folks, that is it. I covered quite a bit and I am 660 00:52:45,840 --> 00:52:51,800 not even remotely near the number of questions that I have that have been submitted. 661 00:52:51,880 --> 00:52:53,280 I told you i'd do my best to catch up on all these. 662 00:52:53,320 --> 00:52:58,159 This is an hour, so I am not used to doing one hour podcast, 663 00:52:58,239 --> 00:53:00,960 to be honest with you. If you're on the road and you want 664 00:53:00,000 --> 00:53:04,320 to listen, you can listen to this in pieces if you want, but 665 00:53:04,360 --> 00:53:07,400 hopefully I answered your questions to the best I could. If any of these 666 00:53:07,480 --> 00:53:08,760 I didn't answer, or you have more insight on any of these, do 667 00:53:08,840 --> 00:53:14,119 me a favor. You can always come and go to Paul Abernathy dot com 668 00:53:14,719 --> 00:53:19,679 and you can send in a reply. Just mention what episode this is and 669 00:53:20,280 --> 00:53:23,000 do a reply, and I'm more than happy to elaborate on something or educate 670 00:53:23,079 --> 00:53:27,280 me. I love to be educated. So if you know something I don't, 671 00:53:27,280 --> 00:53:30,519 you want to give additional insight, just go to Paul Abernathy dot com. 672 00:53:30,519 --> 00:53:31,920 I'd love to hear it. Until next time, folks, Stay safe, 673 00:53:32,679 --> 00:54:00,760 God bless don't