What Up? What Up? What Up? Everybody? Welcome to another episode
Let's Ask Paul the podcast where I, Paul Abernathy, attempt to answer all
of your pressing electrical code related questions submitted through our online portal over at Paul
Abernathy dot com. So thanks for joining me today. It's been a minute
since we've had some podcasts. Things have been very busy, but we're back
in the fold here trying to get caught up on some of these Let's Ask
Paul submissions, and we have a bunch of other things planned. If you
haven't heard Cracking the Code, which is a new series that we'll be doing
talking about different things in the Code. Started on October fifteenth, so you
can go back and re listen or rewatch that over on our YouTube channel.
It will soon be over on our fast Tracks Tube exclusively, but as we
agreed, everything's going to run on our free platforms for about a week or
two and then it all gets moved over to our exclusive platform. It's just
the what's got to happen. That's what it happens when you have to support
a you know, a paid platform. I mean, that's just it.
I mean, the fast Tracks Tube is our video component, and you know
we have to fund it, and this is what it is. So education
isn't cheap. Hey, let's put it that way, all right. So
let's get into today's set of questions here again, all submitted from the portal
over at Paul Abernathy dot com. This is a free service, by the
way, and it's sponsored by Wicks, so it doesn't cost anything for you
to be able to submit questions and get them answered, especially if you have
questions on the National Lectrical Code. All right, So this first one says,
hey, Paul, is it permissible by the twenty seventeen EEC to have
three six gang meter packs with no main on one corner of an apartment building
fed from one transformer? Okay, so I'm going to assume you're talking to
transformer, let's say, pad mounted transformer. We'll just start with that and
kind of kind of go from there. I guess the first thing I would
say is, let's clarify whether this is one service, because again we have
to go to part one of Article two thirty and that's the general. And
in the general you'll see that we have a two thirty dot two and that
says number of services. Now there are allowances to have more than one,
and those fall under two thirty dot two A through D. And remember I'm
doing the twenty seventeen because that's what was requested. So if you happen to
be in another edition where this is expanded and you're thinking, whoa, that's
not what my code says. These questions are for people that submit them.
You're just listening to the request and this one was for the twenty seventeen edition
of the NEEC. So make sure we understand where we're at when we have
our little snippy comments. Okay, So two thirty dot two Number of services
in the twenty seventeen edition says a building or other structure served shall be supplied
by only one service, unless permitted in two thirty dot two A through D
for the purpose of two thirty dotty exception number two. Only underground sets of
conductors one at AWG and larger running to the same location and connected together at
their supply end, but not connected together at their load in shall be considered
to be supplying one service. Okay, so in that scenario, you what
you've got is, say a pad mount transformer, you have underground service.
Laterals they go over, they come up, and they may hit a set
of meter sockets up to six at six different locations, up to six,
right, and so all of that is stuff that we see. The maximum
of six is everything we see in two thirty seventy one A and grouping and
all this kind of other stuff. So at the end of the day,
we're gonna have to look at this point we know, okay, So based
on this question and it wasn't defined otherwise, we're going to assume, just
for this one, that it is a pad mount transformer, and all of
them are connected together at the transformer, and then they separate out and they
go to separate locations grouped in the same area of this apartment building. And
then of course it hits a six gang meter stack okay, for three different
ones by the way, Okay, So that is and then I would assume
that under each one of these meters there is a there has to be a
main breaker, Okay. It would be just pointless to hit a meter stack
and then not have main breakers. So either they're incorporated into the meter,
or they immediately come down and hit a disconnect or. Since this is twenty
seventeen, it could be that they run on the side of the building and
then on the side of the building end up hitting separate panels nearest point of
entry. So again, because this rule wouldn't require any emergency disconnect, that's
didn't come into play until the twenty twenty edition of the e NEC, So
we're gonna go with that. So, first of all, if we assume
this transformer and it has laterals, then we're gonna assume it's all still considered
a service. Right. What is helpful folks, If you do have Link
or you're actually a subscriber to Link and you have that, there is some
nifty illustrations they can kind of give you some visualization if you will. It
kind of helps kind of hammer that home for you. But if you're not
familiar with it, then obviously at the end of the day, I'll try
to paint you a mental picture if I can. So what you want to
do is, at this point, your service is coming to the building.
If it's underground, it directly told us to hey, go look at two
thirty dot forty, exception number two. So that's what we're gonna do.
So we're gonna go to two thirty dot forty hopefully you've got your codebook.
Now, these are service entrance conductors, is what we're talking about. Okay.
So here it says two thirty dot forty. The charging statement says,
each service drop, set of overhead service conductors, set of underground service conductors
or service lateralskay, shall supply only one set of service entrance conductors. Okay.
So this is talking about once it comes to the building and you have
your your service point, and then it changes over from the lateral, or
it changes over from the service drop, and you have service conductors okay,
service entrance conductors that are running on the outside of the building, okay,
and they can run around the outside of the building. So in this case,
it's said, all right, so we have one service to a building.
But remember what it's said about the exception, because that's the charging rule.
But it's said, hey, look at exception number two, and so
this is this isn't an exception to having each service, each lateral, each
overhead surface. These are exceptions to that general rule. And so exception number
two says, hey, we're two to six service distrodecting means and separate enclosures
are grouped at one location and supply separate loads from one service drop, set
of overhead service conductors, set of underground service conductors, or service laterals.
One set of service interconductors shall be permitted to supply each or several such service
equipment enclosures. So in our case, what we're looking at is if you
have a transformer pad. We already were told back in two thirty dot two,
just as extra information, we were already told that in those cases those
service laterals, you could have up to six of them, right, they'd
go to the same common location. In our question, we only had three,
by the way, three sets of six. The maximum number is six,
and that has given to us in two thirty dot seventy one, and
we'll go look at that to kind of read that. But we're okay as
long as we have up to six. Now, if you were to hit
it and have a main breaker at each one, and then you could you
know, you could have six okay with the main breaker, and then you
can have unlimited meters on the load side of that. But yes, so
answer your question quickly is that that is not a problem. If it's coming
from a transformer, then that would be okay. A pad amount of transformer
you could have six sets coming out. Also, this exception also applies if
it was overhead. If it's an overhead and you have one service drop that's
coming down, but then at the point of attachment it separates right there and
taps there and goes to six separate meter sets right there that doesn't exceed six,
then you're okay there too. But as long as you follow the allowance
of exception number two. Notice that this eception number two doesn't just say service
laterals like we started out right. It also makes a mention of overhead service
conductors, which is typically you know, not the service drop, but it
also says service drop in there as well. So as long as you have
one drop coming from a poll, it hits the top where the meters are
located, and then it taps off and you have separate set of service entrance
conductors coming down to each set of a maximum of six, then you're okay,
all right, But they have to be grouped in that one location,
and your question says that they're at that one corner of the apartment, So
I'm going to go with they're actually grouped. Okay. Now, as far
as our number of disconnects, you hear me talking about it to thirty dot
seventy one. Uh, that is where it tells you the maximum number is
says the service. This nickna means for each service, and we established that
that this was okay for each service permitted by two thirty dot two, or
for each set of service entrance conductors permitted by two thirty dot forty exception number
one, number three, number four, or five. Now you notice number
two is different, is not there because that's service laterals and that's our already
been covered into thirty dot two that it was okay to be considered as one.
Right. So in this scenario here it goes on to tell us not
more than six switches or set of circuit breakers or a combination of switches and
circuit breakers or what not mounted in that. So that is okay. So
to answer your question, seems like what's being done is perfectly fine. The
code references that we're going to give you again is two thirty dot two.
Okay, So I want you didn't you didn't define whether or not it was
an overhead or whatever. So we're going to tell you two thirty dot two.
Ultimately that's going to send you to two thirty dot forty exception number one
or exception number two, depending on what you're dealing with. But it looks
like exception number two is still going to be the one that you're going to
be dealing with, right, all right, let's move on to another question.
It would submitted over on the portal. So this is a long one,
so bear with me. It says, Hey, Paul, I'm not
sure if this is something you have went over before, but my question involves
a scenario when you can or cannot downsize a neutral conductor, in particular with
RV parks. What is your opinion of what a permanently connected load is?
Okay, so i'll address that. Is this the pedestal, it's pedestal itself,
or the RV that would be connected to the pedestal? All right,
let me stop there first. Let's say so, in order to be a
permanently connected load, it's got to be an actual load. So it could
be some appliance, some equipment, something, But I don't consider the pedestal
to be a load. That's just part of the distribution system. So from
the service equipment at the RV park, it's going to fracture out into feeders
to these different pedestals, And in these pedestals you'll have your Some will have
a fifty amp receptacle, some will have twenty amp receptacles, some will have
even fifteen. I mean, depending on what the requirement is for the receptacles,
and at the different site locations, all covered in five fifty one by
the way. So no, to answer that what I consider a permanent load
is something that's being supplied maybe at this site that is something that is actually
a load. I don't ever consider an RV that is transient in nature in
an RV park, not a mobile home park RV park. I really don't
know of anything on there that I would consider permanent load from that aspect of
it. So that's that's my answer for that. And I again I don't
think the pedestal qualifies as a load itself, most certainly not permanent. Also,
just talking about the receptacle aspect of these pedestals, it tells us in
five point fifty one seventy two c that the receptacles. It remind you here
that the new conductor shall not be reduced in size below the size of the
ungrounded conductors for the site distribution. Right, So we're not going to be
reducing any any size there so to me, d is well, let me
read the rest of the question. It says, so my state is still
under the twenty seventeen ne C, so five D is what I'm questioning.
This is also under the distribution system part. Could you please elaborate on that
on that sum distribution, I mean typically these parks, you'll have a central
location, uh for lack of a better description. If you're used to a
commercial building, let's say it's it's a distribution to the switch gear. Not
what you're going to get in an RV Park's typically not gonna be switch gear.
But I'm just using that as an analogy. And then from there it's
going to fracture out or branch out into feeders to the different sites on different
locations where you're going to have these pedestals. So that's just all part of
the downchain distribution, not thinking any differently than you would in a building where
you have a main gear, and then it kind of heads out to different
panels, remote distribution panels, subby panels if you want to call them,
at different locations. It's typically what's getting done here in these these pedestal applications.
So next it goes he goes. For instance, is each pedestal or
the service dis net feeding each pedestal. These are not typically services. Typically
these are RV park sites. Typically what you're going to have is feeders going
out to that. Again, now you can have some what we call an
RV park, which is kind of interesting. Where I have my RV,
which is permanent. By the way, even though it's cordon plug connected,
it's I'm not moving the RV, so it's still I wouldn't classify that obviously
as a permanent load because I can move it at any time. I'm just
choosing not to. It's cord and plug connected. Interesting, there is is
a service at each one of these sites. Because the distribution hits a meter
and then straight out of the meter, it does not have any overcurrent protection.
It goes straight out under and then comes to each site, and so
each site is a service. But typically in a lot of the commercial RV
parks, which is designed simply for transient and again I am not an expert
in RV park design, typically what we would see would be feeders going out
to the different locations. That type of thing. The reason it's done this
way in the park that I'm at is because it's a it's not an RV
park for transient you know, you have to pay an annual fee, and
everybody owns their own you know, have to pay their own meter. Typically
in an RV park, you don't do that, right, You just come
in and and you just stay a night or two nights or a week or
whatnot. You don't pay the electric bill. You just pay your nightly fee
and you just move on. So the meter setup is for the distribution,
it's the whole RV park. So there is a distinction. And people say,
well, aren't you describing where your RV is is a mobile home park.
No, it's not. It's not a mobile home park. It's very
distinctively listed in their charter as an RV resort. And so it just happens
to be that everybody's lot has a meter, so we have services at every
lot. That's not your typical layout for an RV park. Okay, all
right, anyway, so it goes on and says thank you in advance,
thank you in advance if you can get to this question and for all you
do for the electrical trade. Well, I don't know I'm answering your question,
but I do thank you for the kudos in You're most certainly welcome.
But again, so talking about D in your question two D, I think
this is only going to apply to line to line permanently connected loads only.
So it might be some ancillary load at the that's part of the distribution system.
Maybe it's feeding, for example, a common area where you might have
bathrooms or laundryes or whatnot, and that has two forty volt loads that are
permanently fixed. They're not portable, they're not cord and plug, they're actually
permanent, and I think you would treat that like you would any other calculation.
You would make sure the grounded conductor in this case, probably the neutral
is sized minimum to two fifty twenty four D, and then of course ultimately
we're going to be sizing it and making sure that it handles the maximum um
balance load into twenty dot sixty one B and then of course it can't be
smaller than what's in two fifty one zero two. You won the table,
So hopefully that kind of answers that question. That's the best I can honestly
can give you, and the reason for that it makes it very clear for
receptacles that you're not going to reduce the size of the neutral or you know,
it makes it pretty damn clear. And then when you get down to
d it's since it's under distribution system, it's telling me that it's not talking
about the portable applications in the in the permanently connected load only is not going
to apply to the RV itself or even the pedestal, because the pedestal itself
is not a load, so it is just part of the distribution. It
supplies the ability to you know, power these different things that are plugged into
it. So it could be permanently connected to forty volt line to line appliances
or equipment that maybe at each site, maybe added to each site, or
maybe facilities that are on the site that are being fed from the distribution system.
That's where I'm thinking that applies. And of course if I'm wrong,
somebody will tell me. But that's the best I can give you on that
one. My friend. Again, I tell people all the time, a
lot of times in this case that it's one of those things that if it's
a building on the site that's being supplied through the same distribution system as the
RV park, just treat it like a normal building and follow all the rules
for sizing your grounded conductor in this case is probably neutral. So sizing your
neutral, follow all the normal rules, and you're going to be fine when
it comes to the receptacles and it comes to the actual pedestals and things like
that. I think that this is a situation where since you're supplying the receptacles
and these are feeders, you want to make sure that you're actually it doesn't
behoove you if you will to have a reduced neutral in those scenarios. Okay,
all right, well, I just want to remind you where it strictly
prohibits the reduction in see for the receiptles, right, and then of course
d allows for a reduction. You have to remember also though, in these
parks, all of these RV sites, the majority of these loads that are
going to be plugging into it are going to be one twenty volt loads,
and so there is going to be a need for this neutral, So reducing
it down could be problematic for the large number of one hundred and twenty volt
loads that are going to be plugged into it. Okay, So again,
as far as I believe. I don't believe to me that anything at an
RV park with the RV itself has anything to do with permanently connected loads only,
right, So that's going to be my take on it. All right,
let's see if we got another question. All right, So this question
says, Hey, Paul, I've recently started a new job on a federally
owned building. I'm told different things about who the HJ is, if they
use the NEC, which version do they use, and who does inspections are?
They are their inspections. It's kind of a question mark there. And
here's the thing. The authority haveing jurisdiction doesn't always have to be a municipality.
So in a federal job, you could have a administrator. Somebody has
to be the AHJ. If they're going to be using the NEC as a
minimum safety standard to have something to do with it, somebody has to be
assigned, whether it's the person that's ahead of the project, a leader.
And that's the question you have to ask. If it was a military installation,
it would either base commander would be the HJ. Of course, you
can have deputies under them, just like we have municipal inspectors, and you
have their different inspectors. They are deputies really of the building official or the
building commissioner, depending on your structure. So somebody has to be the HJ.
Now, as far as what addition they're using, that can go all
over the place. It really is something that whoever takes a authority, whoever
everybody's answering to, that is the authority having jurisdiction, whether they like it
or not. Right, that's who it is. And so if they're using
the NEC or at some point, somebody's got to make decisions where the code
will say that it's approved, Well it's approved by the AGEJ. Well who
is the AHJ. I can't tell you that, but I can tell you
if they're utilizing the NEC in that federal project, then there's somebody that's in
charge of that project that ultimately is going to be HJ or somebody they designate
as that authority to make those decisions, because those decisions are going to happen.
Now, what cycle they're using, I really you'd have to go in
and find out, because they could say they're using twenty twenty, they could
say they're using twenty seventeen. Hell, they could be archaic and say they're
still on twenty two thousand and five or something. Heaven forbid a federal project
hill. They could be on the two thousand and two God forbid, but
you just don't know. So I wish I could answer that question for you
a little deeper. But again, hj's now when it comes to the National
Electrical Code, in holding somebody's to the fire, I guess we should say
holding somebody to the fire to say who is the AHJ. Well, if
you go look at the National Electrical Code and there's an informational note that gives
you some really good information to help answer this question. But the AHJ is
an organization, an office, or an individual responsible for enforcing the requirements of
a code or standard or for a proving equipment. Now we have different applications
where it says that it's a subject to approval by the AGEJ. Well,
somebody has to make that decision, or some association or organization or something has
to make that decision. And if it's a federal project, I would think
whoever is in charge of the project, there's got to be that guy or
that girl that is in charge of the of the project, and there's going
to be uses of different materials, different installations, and different procedures that somebody
is going to have to make a decision. Unfortunately, the nec is is
you know, people like when I say this, it's it's it's not gray,
but it's not necessarily black and white. Sometimes it's shades of hmmm,
And you're gonna need that extra level of interpretation. So somebody's got to help
with that. That's what the HJ does, right. So at the end
of the day, all I can tell you is do your due diligence and
try to find out who you answer to, who they answer to, and
h and follow it up to change with somebody's going to be the one that's
responsible. Some people don't want to accept responsibility at all anyway. But if
you read the informational note, it's quite interesting. It says the phrase authority
of a jurisdiction or its acronym, the AHJ, is used in n FPA
documents in a broad manner, since jurisdictions and agencies vary, as do their
responsibilities. Where public safety is primary, the authority having jurisdiction may be federal,
state, local, or other regional department, or individual such as a
fire chief of fire marshal chief of the fire Prevention bureau, maybe Labor department
or health department, building officials, electrical inspectors, or others having statutory authority.
Those are to be the ones that are going to have to take that
responsibility. Now you're going to have to ferret that out. For insurance purposes,
an insurance inspector, department, ratings bureau, or other insurance company representing
may be the authority haveing jurisdiction, depending on the context of what we're looking
at. So all of this, and it also says in many circumstances,
the property owner or his or her designated agent assumes the role of authority having
jurisdiction. A government installations, a commanding officer or departmental official maybe the authority
having jurisdiction. So you're gonna have to ferret somebody out. Somebody's going to
have to make those decisions. Hopefully you have a job where you don't have
to have anybody make those decisions, as Heaven forbid. You want people making
decisions that don't have a clue. But it can happen. It can happen.
So that's the best advice I can give you. Ferret that out.
A little bit, see who you answer to, who the person you answer
to answers to, and kind of follow that backwards till you can get somebody
that's going to be that authority figure. But again, don't be afraid to
go and throw Article one hundred, the definition of authority having jurisdiction, right
down in their face and say, dude, somebody is going to have to
make the decision, because as sure as hell, ain't going to be me
when it comes to those decisions that could get me fired or what not.
You know what I'm saying. Also, it's probably a decent time to you
know, mention things like article ninety and in four and things like that.
In that's where it's going to tell you that this code is intended to be
suitable for mandatory application by governmental bodies that exercise legal jurisdiction over electrical installations,
including signaling and communication systems, and for use by insurance inspectors. The authority
ev in jurisdiction. Okay, that you need that word, so we had
to define it. For enforcement of the code has the responsibility for making interpretations
of the rule, for deciding on approval of equipment or materials, and for
granting the special permission contemplated in a number of the rules. So there's so
many things here that they have to take responsibility for. So yeah, make
sure that you find out who that is. And remember anything you get in
special permission is written consent. Okay, get it in writing. I'll just
take somebody's word for it, Okay, all right, all right, anyway,
hopefully it answers that question. Ferret it out, go up the chain,
rattle some cages a little bit. You'll find out who the big dog
is. Okay, what's next? All right? So this question was submitted,
and I think I already answered this question, but I think I was
I think I was wrong in a sense at how I answered it, and
I tried to use a little common sense in the approach to answering it.
So if the individual out there that submitted this one, I, you know,
I tried to give what I thought based on the size of these motors.
But I'm gonna have to I'm gonna have to back up a little bit
when it comes to this dealing with with overload protection. So the original question,
by the way, I have to go back to the original question that
was submitted. It says can I use the same motor starter in overloads for
two half horsepower for one hundred eighty OO three phase motors running exhaust fans,
I assume no. However, my programmer is saying it is okay, okay.
So now I gave a response to that to the individual, saying,
well, basically, you're you're talking about and I can't remember what my response
is. I said, so the combined load that we were dealing with was
one point one amps times too, so the total was two point two amps.
And nothing was ever stated about ANIMA starter. It wasn't nothing was really
said, what the anything, the ratings were in anything. So my general
response was I didn't see a problem with it, although these are two separate
motors, and the original question was about the overloads, and so I'm thinking
this is so low of amount. But here's the problem. Here's the problem.
And they came back with more information, and so here's what it says.
Sorry, good morning, Paul. So here's a little more detail.
It says a contractor in the state of Iowa wired two foreigner nivil half horsepower
exhaust vans to an existing size zero motor starter in an MCC bucket using the
same overloads to protect two motors. I was under the impression that you cannot
protect multiple motors with one motor overload. Also, I need to get my
master's license in the state of Minnesota, and I'm interested in exam prep.
Which one of your courses would you suggest? Okay, let me answer the
question first, So if I have to be a purist on this and answer
the question now, do I think that these are really small loads? Okay?
And I think that the overload was adequate for one motor, and I
think that the overload is probably adequate for two motors, although I am going
to have to defer to the NEC. So the NEC is talking about and
where we would be in the NEC, and he didn't say what addition he's
in, and I don't want to go figuring what the state is there.
Where we'd be looking at is four to thirty dot thirty two, and we
wouldn't be looking at a for that's more than one horse power. If that
was the case, then each motor has to have a separate overload straightforward,
right In this case, these motors are less than one, so you would
go to B which it says one horse power or less. Of course,
these were half. It says any motor of one horse power or less that
is started automatically shall be protected against overload by one of the following means.
So the very first one says separate overload devices. It says by a separate
overload device following the requirements of four to thirty dot thirty two A one well
A one one says a separate overload device that is responsible responsive to motor current
right, and then A itself says each motor using a continuous duty and ready
more than one shall be protected against overload by one of the following means.
So I don't see anything in here directly that that says that I can take
one overload and protect multiple motors. I think the intent here is to have
separate over Now, the problem that you run into, and we really didn't
really just discuss it, is that each motor, although these two motors are
identical, you do have situations where in this case, both motors are probably
going to run. They're just exhaust fans, and they don't have issues where
one's going to be running harder than the other. They're just exhaust fans.
So I think that's why they probably said, look, we'll just take the
overload and obviously, if it's size adequate to handle the one motor and it's
too large, that it actually based on the starter size or the overload size
that it can handle too. I think that's a decision they made in that
I think that they will still be protected based on the size that you gave.
But you know, at the end of the day, if we were
to follow the code, it really does say that each motor should have its
own overload, okay. You know. Also just to bear in mind that
some of these these motors have may have what's called thermal protectors built into them
that is okay, as well, they may have something that's integrated with the
motor at as well. So there is other options. But if we go
by the letter of the code the way it says it, and for that
case, since it's sending me back because of the separate overload, it's ultimately
would be sending back to four thirty thirty two A one and that again as
separate overload devices. So it would intend that each motor have a separate overload.
I'm gonna you know, I'm gonna have to punt this one and sit
there and say that I think that you looked at the size zero motor starter,
right, and I think that should you know mention that if you look
at a size zero motor starter, it typically can handle up to eighteen amps
of a motor operation at six hundred volts. But here's what I'm gonna tell
you. I encourage you to call the experts, reach out to the motor
starter manufacturer that should be on the equipment. It might be a I don't
know one of the manufacturers. And again there's this it's ANIMA rating, but
Schneider makes them different ones and should have it on there and reach out to
them and give them the scenario you're dealing with. I'm being honest with you.
I think that this is for the starter. It's far below what that
starter is rated for. So that's not a problem the starter. The overload
thing that we're concerned is is will the overloads and I don't know which ones
they are, I don't know what they're designed for. Will the overloads be
able to handle these two small exhaust fans? Probably, and so that's probably
why they designed it, and they said it's okay, that's fine. The
question you really have to ask is because these exhaust fans are identical. This
would not be the same if we had two separate motors with different potential characteristics
of the loading on the motor. These are just fans, So I think
in this scenario, you combine these two fans as one, and take the
value for the fans from the nameplate as one and treat it as one motor,
you know, summation, and then see if the overload is adequate or
if that's what it would be sizing for that motor based on you know,
I guess it would be one horsepower because these are two half horsepower, so
based it on one horsepower, and if it would be an adequate overload for
one motor at one horse power, then I think you're probably gonna be fine
practically speaking, as far as any c though is concerned, it's pretty clear
that it would like to have separate overloads for each motor. So if you're
going to tackle it from a code perspective, then I think you have to
you have to go in it from that and say, hey, dude,
it says each one needs to have it. I know you're trying to save
a buck or two, but it says each one has to have an overload
again, so that's how I would tackle it. And if they've done the
math and they're above you, and they're the ones that are in control,
and they're the ones that are making decisions and they tell you, now,
dude, we're just going to use one. It's fine, and they've done
all their due diligence, then it depends on whether or not you want to
be the squeaky wheel. Okay, but that's the best device I can give
you on that. But if we're following purely the National Electrical Code, right,
then we have to look at four thirty thirty two and in your case,
we have to look at B and we look at B and at that
point it tells us separate overload devices and B one and it says by separate
overload devices okay for the motors. So that means each one would have to
have one. And thank you for asking us sending the additional clarification. It
did help me and being able to look at that and then being able to
sit down and look at the NEC for you. I appreciate that. And
again, if anybody has any additional insight that you want to give to this,
maybe you're familiar with working on things like this, and you know the
scenario that's being done, then feel free to reply to this at Paul Abernathy
dot com. Give the episode and let me know. Okay, all right,
let's see if we got anything else. Okay, so this one says,
I can't message you on TikTok anymore. Oh wait a minute, Wait
a minute, wait a minute. To the gentleman's previous question, I did
not. I am sorry. I did not meet the second part of your
question. So, if you're preparing for an electrical exam in whatever state you're
in, we definitely recommend our fast Tracks Black, which is our base program,
or the fast Tracks Plus. The only difference in those is that the
Plus gives you access to some videos that are over on fast Tracks Tubes.
You get a year subscription of that platform as well. You don't need it
for exam prep. Black does fine, and we will grade all your competencies
and whatnot, and you will, believe me, learn what you need.
And I promise you most exams are not going to have questions like what you
submitted today, So don't worry about that scenario where you're in dealing with that,
but definitely check it out. On our website fastracksystem dot com and go
look at the fasttracks black. We have a demo and if you decide you
want to also watch some videos that from me and other educators, then you'll
just get the plus and that just gives you access to the video platform as
well. You don't need it, but if you want it, it's there
and it's an option for you. Okay, sorry about that. I wanted
to make sure I answered all of your questions. So the next one's question
was, oh, it says I can't message you on TikTok anymore. I
didn't quote you in my video as a guy I spoke with at the trade
show because you gave me pretty good, thorough answer and I didn't want to
try to quote you and mess it up you. Also, you blocked people
from tagging you, so I thought you didn't want to get involved. Okay,
so this is about TikTok. I don't allow stupid comments on TikTok anymore.
People just derail a discussion quick as shit. So I just it just
it's not my platform, it's not my gig. You know, it's it's
just not you know, it's not my jam. Okay, I use honey,
I kiss it on the lips. Okay, that was my Gary Busey
impression. So I I just don't use the TikTok that much. So it's
not a big platform of mine, so I don't really allow that kind of
interaction on it. But what what the gentleman was talking about was I was
at the NIKA trade show and people would come by and get selfies and I
would sign some stuff, and then I answer questions for different people. So
an individual who has an account over on TikTok, I guess it's easier to
say Steven one twenty, he's over on TikTok. Usually I keep these ask
Paul one's anonymous, but Steven gets you some get you some followers over there
on the TikTok. Steven one twenty, he's doing some neat things. But
the question came up about afcies, and uh, I kind of explained to
him the characteristics what afcis we're looking for. They're not perfect. And so
when people do a demo and they drag a conductor across terminals and they're arcing
because of the moving nature, because of it's not you're just moving it back
and forth to create an arc. That's not the really the characteristic that the
afcis are looking for. Again, they are not perfect, and you would
really have to look at UIL sixteen ninety nine and sixteen ninety nine A to
get a better understanding of what afcis are looking for. I'm gonna be honest
with you. I tell people this. I've done podcasts on this. I
am not a hundred percent in the AFCI camp. Okay, I think originally
some of the claims are bs. But do they have merit? Yes?
Does the technology that we're that they're utilizing has it found issues? Yes?
In fact it could have. It didn't. It could have found an issue
in a house that I wired years ago. If that was before AFCIES,
that I think that it would have found it. I just happened to find
it because I was opening it up because the customer wanted to move some recess
and I found where a nail was driven through the non metallic sheets cable.
It may or may not cause the problem, it may or may not trip.
Then AFCI, they weren't required back then. That kind of date me
a little bit there. And it was in Virginia anyway, So Virginia had
some amendments that pull it out for one family dwellings. But at the end
of the day, I think it would have detected it because it wouldn't have
been one of those arcs where you're just kind of jiggling back and forth.
It would have been an ARC that would have been very load dependent, and
as the load increases, then the arc would have jumped and it would have
been something that was an arc that was generated through the damage, and it
would have detected it. At least I hope it would have detected it,
because that's the whole point. Now, what does bother me? And I
gave you Steven some insight on how to do some testings and he's run with
it. Now he gets obsessed with those things. And I think it's awesome
because people need to see it. And my guess was the manufacturers have folks
out there who are in the know. They're part of these test groups.
They understand it. And if they ever get past the sales piece, you
know, just trying to be the mouthpiece for sales, which I wish they
would just get past being a salesman, yep. And why don't you address
the issues, like why don't you the experts come in and say, well,
you're not gonna detect it based on you jiggling it like that, or
you're gonna I wish they would speak up, but the problem is they're scared
to speak up, and their companies won't let them speak up because it might
have somebody like that who shows something or says something and next thing you know,
it shines negatively on the manufacturers. And yes, they're stumping to get
AFC isaac's GFC is expanded, YadA YadA, and it's not going to look
good to them. I know that sucks. And that does not mean that
they have undue influence on a code panel. That just means that they're not
putting out information out there that can come back to haunt them. And so
I am not one hundred percent folks in the camp of AFCIS. Don't get
me wrong. I am not one hundred percent in that camp. But I
know that they're in the NEC and that ship has sailed. So whether I
like it or not, we're going to have to use them. It just
is what it is. So that's my thought on that. But thanks for
Steven for that. And I think I have recently unlocked so at least you
can contact me on TikTok so, but that I'm not allowing people to post
comments that type of thing. I'm pretty much done with that, Okay,
I think we have time for one more and I'm not sure if there's a
question in here or not, but again, I like to address it and
people that go out of their way to take the time to send me something
at Paul Abernethy dot com, Dude, I want to make sure I answer
these questions. This is a longer podcast than I normally do, so I'm
jacked up on coffee, so all right, says hello, Paul. I
have eighteen years in the electrical of electrical experience. I have my contractor's license
in New Mexico, my master's license in Louisiana. I also have worked as
a licensed journeyman in Texas and Colorado. I recently have learned about asbestos hazards
in some of the older electrical systems that we often are demoing and replacing.
I know that I have been exposed to asbestos, silica, and a plethora
of other fibers hazards. Okay, many of these companies I worked for knowingly
have exposed to me and others to workplace hazards along with unnecessary hot work.
Okay, so seventy e issues there. It says, at the age of
thirty eight, I have constant tonightis from running a large hammer drills and chipping
hammers, and sadly, I have never been as concerned with safety as I
am now as my as my own contractor, as being a contractor, hopefully
you carry those same concerns over to your employees because obviously hammer drills are they
what they are? All these things that are repetitive motion stuff is what it
is. You know, I have carpal tunnel from the years of contracting,
so I get it. There are these issues that we, you know,
have to be aware of. So hopefully you keep that concern for your employees
as well. Is a concern for you obviously, I said, what are
ways to recognize asbestos and some other less popular hazards in the workplace? Also
what our service equipment to buildings? Also what are services equipment to build into
my projects in the future to minimize eliminating these hazards. This is the first
part of this question. Okay, you know, I don't know. My
best advice would be to get a hold of some training from OSHA. So
OSHA has training identifying hazard's material things like that. So I would reach out
to some training program and really let them know that you have a concern with
exposure and maintaining, you know, looking at future exposure. I think one
of the biggest things about it is understanding the years or date of construction,
and you know, you can really get educated on how to identify potential hazards
asbestos, what it looks like, where the potential locations it could be uh
and then step back and report that to somebody of your concern and then they
can come in and test the material. You have the EPA as well,
who does a lot of training Environmental protection agency that you can reach out to
and see if they have anything for construction. I also tell you Google can
be your friend if you type in things like recognizing hazardous construction Environments Google.
Believe it or not, today that that thing is so vastly expansive when it
comes to the ability to get information that you would be surprised what you could
pull up. But I don't have any direct recommendation other than seventy NPA seventy
E maybe, although that's workplace environment. But that's going to address some of
your other issues. Reach out to the EPA, reach out to OSHA and
see what they say in some of their documents. That's the best advice I
can give you. It goes on to say, just a flex, I
passed all four sections of the New Mexico Contractors Licensed Tests and the Louisiana Master's
Electrician Tests in the first shot. Okay, hold on for you. Congratulations,
but I have already learned loads of info from your podcast in the past
couple months. Well great, I'm glad you're listening. I know that your
podcast and courses really could have increased my scores even more. I also have
been recommending them to others in the trade that are getting ready to break tests
out. Thanks in advance for your response. Well, thank you for the
email. Thank you for your years of service in our industry. I'm sorry
to hear about the different conditions that you were forced to work under. And
I think that there are class action lawsuits that are out there for as Festus
exposure. Check those out if you feel if it has affected you. I
think in the construction industry, a lot of us early on because we didn't
know what we didn't know right, and so reaching out to Oshow, reaching
out to EPA, things like that, using Google to just kind of ask
normal search is to try to educate ourselves on what's out there. I think
you'll find a lot of information out there. I'm sorry I don't have any
directly to send you so, but again, congratulations on your success. Like
I said, I have the aftering effects of working in the trade. I
love it when people say, Paul, you probably never worked in the trade.
It just shows you they ain't got a clue what they're talking about,
because I couldn't talk about a lot of this stuff unless I did. But
that's okay. You know people want to do that all the time, and
that's fine. But again, you have the aftering effects of working in this
trade and being exposed to certain things. And I think today we're probably a
little more wiser about the work environments that we're forced to work in now.
Being forced to work on something hot, that is another problem. That's a
seventy e thing. That is something where every situation should be put in a
safe environment. You should not be required to work on something hot unless it
creates a greater hazard in shutting something down. Maybe like a life support system
in a hospital or whatever, and so there's usually ways to bypass that or
secondary power something to do in order to make sure that there's that continuity of
power. But just working on stuff hot, I know there's a people want
to bang their chest and they love working on stuff hot, and that's you.
Then go for it. For me, I think it's just as easy
to disconnect it that way. I don't have any restrictions on me working on
something, putting into a safe condition, and then doing what I need to
do, and then getting away and then energizing it again. I mean,
that's just my approach to it. I don't have to be a hero to
anybody. And I think you've come to that conclusion as well, and so
good luck to you, and thanks for sending in your question. All right,
folks, that is it. I covered quite a bit and I am
not even remotely near the number of questions that I have that have been submitted.
I told you i'd do my best to catch up on all these.
This is an hour, so I am not used to doing one hour podcast,
to be honest with you. If you're on the road and you want
to listen, you can listen to this in pieces if you want, but
hopefully I answered your questions to the best I could. If any of these
I didn't answer, or you have more insight on any of these, do
me a favor. You can always come and go to Paul Abernathy dot com
and you can send in a reply. Just mention what episode this is and
do a reply, and I'm more than happy to elaborate on something or educate
me. I love to be educated. So if you know something I don't,
you want to give additional insight, just go to Paul Abernathy dot com.
I'd love to hear it. Until next time, folks, Stay safe,
God bless don't