WEBVTT 1 00:00:11.519 --> 00:00:15.839 Welcome to Veterans Chronicles. I'm Greg Corumbas. Our guest in this edition is 2 00:00:15.919 --> 00:00:20.600 retired US Air Force Colonel Howard Hill. He is a Vietnam veteran and spent 3 00:00:20.679 --> 00:00:25.480 well over five years in captivity as a prisoner of war after being shot down 4 00:00:25.519 --> 00:00:30.199 in December of nineteen sixty seven. He was also the recipient of two Silver 5 00:00:30.239 --> 00:00:34.920 Stars, among many other awards. And Colonel, thank you very much for 6 00:00:34.960 --> 00:00:37.439 your time today. We appreciate it to be here. Where were you born 7 00:00:37.479 --> 00:00:42.240 and raised there? But born in Olkfesso, Texas. And my dad was 8 00:00:42.240 --> 00:00:46.719 about when I was about five. Rather than my dad had went in the 9 00:00:46.759 --> 00:00:53.600 Air Force. He'd actually been in the US Army for two years prior to 10 00:00:53.640 --> 00:00:57.159 thirty nine forty one. He got up about June forty one, I believe 11 00:00:57.359 --> 00:01:00.159 was he got drafted again, and I think it was April of forty four, 12 00:01:00.320 --> 00:01:03.599 maybe that's when he got sent over to France. But here he was 13 00:01:03.640 --> 00:01:07.840 twenty eight years old, married a kid, one kid, and went on 14 00:01:07.879 --> 00:01:11.519 the way and he got drafted. You know, it already served, you 15 00:01:11.560 --> 00:01:18.359 know, because they you know, basically had sixteen million men that served during 16 00:01:18.400 --> 00:01:22.439 World War Two. So in our population for the US was only about one 17 00:01:22.519 --> 00:01:25.359 hundred and forty million, and that was just the men I'm talking about, 18 00:01:25.439 --> 00:01:30.799 not the total population that so we had a large number of our people, 19 00:01:32.120 --> 00:01:36.120 you know, our men, able bodied men that were called to serve, 20 00:01:36.159 --> 00:01:40.200 whether they liked it or not. You mentioned his service. Did that influence 21 00:01:40.239 --> 00:01:42.680 your decision to want to be in the Air Force and go to the academy? 22 00:01:42.760 --> 00:01:47.159 I think so yes. I mean I was around it, and then 23 00:01:47.200 --> 00:01:52.799 he was an Air Force recruiter when I was in tenth and eleventh grade, 24 00:01:53.200 --> 00:01:57.599 and so that first Park Mantris too, And of course the Air Force Academy 25 00:01:57.680 --> 00:02:01.599 was very new then, and so I applied for that and it was accepted 26 00:02:01.640 --> 00:02:06.959 in a class of sixty five. We were the seventh graduating class from the 27 00:02:07.120 --> 00:02:09.360 Air Force Academy. How did those four years change you or prepare you I 28 00:02:09.400 --> 00:02:13.919 should today? Well, I mean I think there was a lot of good 29 00:02:14.039 --> 00:02:19.159 character building in there, and the physical to metal, there's a lot of 30 00:02:19.159 --> 00:02:24.680 benefits to it. Of course, you know, with anything else, it's 31 00:02:24.680 --> 00:02:30.400 got its positive and maybe not so positive aspects, but overall, I mean 32 00:02:30.439 --> 00:02:34.919 I think the experience. Of course I don't have anything compared to because I 33 00:02:34.919 --> 00:02:38.800 didn't do anything else. Didn go to savean college, but still I think 34 00:02:38.840 --> 00:02:43.840 it was very worthwhile. So, as you mentioned, you were commissioned in 35 00:02:43.879 --> 00:02:46.719 nineteen sixty five, at this point that Vietnam War was already underway. Where 36 00:02:46.719 --> 00:02:52.120 did you go after commissioning Ice in flight school? YEAP pilot training in Del 37 00:02:52.199 --> 00:02:54.960 Rio, Texas, off on an Air Force base, and then after that 38 00:02:55.199 --> 00:03:02.319 I went to two months of training for the F four. It was Davis 39 00:03:02.360 --> 00:03:07.360 Montin Air Force Base in air Tucson, and then that after that, normally 40 00:03:07.520 --> 00:03:15.000 you would go to six months of training for the it's called URTU Replacement Training 41 00:03:15.080 --> 00:03:17.719 Unit, and that would have been at George Air Force Base in California. 42 00:03:17.919 --> 00:03:22.919 However, the personnel system back then, I don't know if it's got any 43 00:03:23.000 --> 00:03:24.360 better. I used to refer to as like a spickett. It was either 44 00:03:24.439 --> 00:03:29.120 full on or full off. And so while I was in pilot training, 45 00:03:29.120 --> 00:03:34.280 two days before graduation, they canceled all our assignments, and three quarters of 46 00:03:34.520 --> 00:03:38.159 is throughout the whole Air Training Command ended up in backseat force or back seat 47 00:03:38.280 --> 00:03:44.159 r force because the Air Force and all this wisdom decided they need two pilots 48 00:03:44.560 --> 00:03:47.240 in the F four and the WRECKI version in the air for even though the 49 00:03:47.319 --> 00:03:51.639 Navy had been operating the F four out in the fleet since nineteen sixty two 50 00:03:51.719 --> 00:03:55.560 with the radar intercept officer in the back seat and the Rio didn't have stick 51 00:03:55.560 --> 00:03:58.960 and throttles, but the Air Force when they bought him, said we had 52 00:03:58.960 --> 00:04:01.599 to have stick and throttles. Well, part of it was the Air Force 53 00:04:01.599 --> 00:04:06.719 had been trying to get pilot authorizations for many years from Congress, but Congress 54 00:04:06.719 --> 00:04:12.560 wouldn't allow because Congress claimed that the Air Force had all of these pilot sitting 55 00:04:12.879 --> 00:04:15.120 staff positions, and the Air Force, that's our reserve. I heard the 56 00:04:15.319 --> 00:04:20.079 figure thirty thousand they had sitting in all these non flying jobs. So what 57 00:04:20.160 --> 00:04:23.319 happened to the Air Force? Though? When they bought the Air Force said 58 00:04:23.319 --> 00:04:28.120 we have to have sticking throttles for safety purposes. So McDonald later McDonald Douglas 59 00:04:28.199 --> 00:04:30.600 is they're pushing that, pumping out and F four and RF four a day. 60 00:04:31.240 --> 00:04:34.839 As the more been kicked off Pretteston, the Air Force said, we're 61 00:04:34.879 --> 00:04:39.720 running out of pilots, so fine checked. They opened up two more pilot 62 00:04:39.720 --> 00:04:42.439 training bases and after a couple of years they said, hey, maybe we 63 00:04:42.439 --> 00:04:45.360 don't need pilots in the backseat. Sure enough, they didn't need polasts anymore, 64 00:04:45.800 --> 00:04:48.879 so it was just deployed to get more pilots Sluss. So that's how 65 00:04:48.920 --> 00:04:51.759 I ended up in the backseat the F four. But I was sent here 66 00:04:51.800 --> 00:04:57.079 to Eggland instead of going six months to Georgia Air Force Base in California. 67 00:04:57.199 --> 00:05:00.120 I was sent here to England to the thirty third for six weeks of training, 68 00:05:00.600 --> 00:05:04.199 and then we were pipeline to Vietnam. And then after I've been here 69 00:05:04.199 --> 00:05:06.120 a month, all of a sudden, they came in one day and said, 70 00:05:06.720 --> 00:05:10.319 we don't need you anymore. Have to stay here, I have to 71 00:05:10.319 --> 00:05:14.959 go to Seymour Johnson up in North Carolina. And so I got to stay 72 00:05:15.000 --> 00:05:17.399 here. And as it said, I think it was the old Spickett thing. 73 00:05:17.399 --> 00:05:21.680 They had it full on when they places over there and need them pretty 74 00:05:21.680 --> 00:05:25.839 soon, they're drowning them so full off. And so that's how I got 75 00:05:25.879 --> 00:05:28.639 to stay here, and the one managed to it. I'd met my wife 76 00:05:28.920 --> 00:05:31.279 here this fourth thank Christmas, so by being able to stay here, I 77 00:05:31.319 --> 00:05:35.519 was able to cord HER's you know, she's still with me after fifty five 78 00:05:35.600 --> 00:05:40.160 years. So when were you deployed to Vietnam. And what was your assignment 79 00:05:40.160 --> 00:05:44.439 there. Well, our squadron deployed the May twenty fifth, nineteen sixty seven, 80 00:05:45.120 --> 00:05:48.519 and we ferried the first four d's over We took eighteen of them and 81 00:05:48.639 --> 00:05:55.079 the theater, and we first moved to Hickam Air Force Base in Hawaii, 82 00:05:55.120 --> 00:05:58.560 spent the night in Anderson Air Force Base, Guam, and then the third 83 00:05:58.639 --> 00:06:03.759 day we flew to Uban Royal Tire Base at Uban Rachitani, Thailand, and 84 00:06:03.800 --> 00:06:09.959 that's where we're stationed a tack Fighter wing. And later they put us in 85 00:06:10.000 --> 00:06:14.399 the five to fifty fifth Tach Fighter Squadron Triple Nickel. And so our mission 86 00:06:14.519 --> 00:06:17.839 was basically to fly missions over Lawis and North Vietnam. We weren't allowed to 87 00:06:17.879 --> 00:06:23.519 fly operational missions over South Vietnam. We could over fly South Vietnam, but 88 00:06:23.560 --> 00:06:28.319 no operational missions. The rules of engagement didn't allow us to actually operate in 89 00:06:28.360 --> 00:06:31.720 South Vietnam. Crazy war. You know, I always tell people, if 90 00:06:31.720 --> 00:06:36.319 you want to find out how not to run a war, study Vietnam. 91 00:06:36.720 --> 00:06:42.720 This should be a case, say study in all the military study departments. 92 00:06:42.759 --> 00:06:46.600 Well, let's move to October of nineteen sixty seven. On October twenty fourth 93 00:06:46.720 --> 00:06:49.759 to be precise. So you let an attack on an enemy airfield and we're 94 00:06:49.759 --> 00:06:54.800 awarded a silver star for that action. So tell me a little bit about 95 00:06:54.800 --> 00:06:58.040 that. Fukian. Yeah, Fukian was to make twenty one base. It's 96 00:06:58.319 --> 00:07:03.079 a little bit northwest of Hanoi. Their their thud Ridge, Bob thud Ridge, 97 00:07:03.480 --> 00:07:06.120 and we were the lead fight of the f fours. There were two 98 00:07:06.120 --> 00:07:11.839 flights fours and I think three or four flights of one O five's And as 99 00:07:11.839 --> 00:07:15.680 we were coming in, we had an undercast and uh but just for some 100 00:07:15.800 --> 00:07:19.759 reason, UH, the hap to be favorably clear right there over the airfield, 101 00:07:20.199 --> 00:07:24.920 so we were able to come in and uh and uh drop our bombs 102 00:07:24.920 --> 00:07:28.600 in each each everybody had their own area they supposed to bomb me the runways 103 00:07:28.639 --> 00:07:32.560 for batments or whatever. And so we came off target. And the thing 104 00:07:32.839 --> 00:07:39.160 is the lead I still remember I lead. Uh the e c After we 105 00:07:39.199 --> 00:07:43.560 came off target, then uh he started to head up the thud Ridge because 106 00:07:43.600 --> 00:07:47.959 thud Ridge was a ridge that ran from north to Hanoi. Uh up along 107 00:07:48.720 --> 00:07:53.439 basically ran west northwest and you could use it for train masking. And he 108 00:07:53.519 --> 00:07:58.000 stayed down low. So anyway, when he he pulled up it, he 109 00:07:58.040 --> 00:08:01.399 pulled into the clouds, and which before we went into the cloud, I 110 00:08:01.399 --> 00:08:03.079 saw a couple of SAMs going off and I'm screaming at him, get down 111 00:08:03.079 --> 00:08:07.040 below. This hit the clause. I can't see the SAMs. So we 112 00:08:07.120 --> 00:08:11.480 fortunately stayed below, got down below. The was the deck there and salms 113 00:08:11.480 --> 00:08:16.000 weren't coming for us. But the SAMs you could outmaneuver them if you saw 114 00:08:16.040 --> 00:08:20.560 them. But they were like these tell them, you know, white telephone 115 00:08:20.560 --> 00:08:24.040 poles. They're about that size. But if you saw one, you could 116 00:08:24.040 --> 00:08:28.160 out maneuver it. And so I just didn't want to, you know, 117 00:08:28.680 --> 00:08:31.519 everything going on, I didn't want to be up in the clouds and have 118 00:08:31.559 --> 00:08:37.840 one get us. And so but yeah, we did very fortunate we were 119 00:08:37.879 --> 00:08:41.120 able to hit it and got it first time. I think that food can 120 00:08:41.200 --> 00:08:43.360 have been hit and the ward been going on for the air war being gone 121 00:08:43.360 --> 00:08:46.559 on for two and a half years. The Silver Star also states how you 122 00:08:46.679 --> 00:08:52.519 expertly evaded missiles and anti aircraft fire and also enemy planes. So is that 123 00:08:52.559 --> 00:08:56.559 instinct? Is that reacting? How is that? No? I mean no, 124 00:08:56.840 --> 00:09:01.200 I don't remember seeing any aircraft up there. If we did as I 125 00:09:01.200 --> 00:09:05.799 said, I just saw the SAMs and triple A, but no, I 126 00:09:05.840 --> 00:09:09.720 mean it was actually the AC was flying. You know, as a GiB. 127 00:09:09.120 --> 00:09:13.480 Your job with a lot of it was clearing operating systems in the back 128 00:09:13.519 --> 00:09:16.159 seat. But your job's clearing to the rear there and stuff like that. 129 00:09:16.320 --> 00:09:22.320 So I wasn't actually operating the airplane except just some systems in the back, 130 00:09:22.360 --> 00:09:24.399 you know. So, but I don't know if you call it instinct, 131 00:09:24.679 --> 00:09:28.360 you know, you go in and you just hope, you know, especially 132 00:09:28.399 --> 00:09:31.159 if they're firing, that they miss. All right, let's move to December. 133 00:09:31.200 --> 00:09:33.799 Then December sixteenth of nineteen sixty seven, you were on another mission, 134 00:09:33.879 --> 00:09:37.919 and that's obviously the day you were shot down. Take me through what happened. 135 00:09:39.120 --> 00:09:43.039 Well, our mission that day was was called mid CAP. The megs 136 00:09:43.120 --> 00:09:48.799 of course the enemy airplanes, and CAP was the cover and protection and we're 137 00:09:48.799 --> 00:09:54.559 providing protecting the strike force from enemy fighters. As we were inbound, the 138 00:09:54.639 --> 00:10:01.080 target was in the Hanoi area's capital and as we approached, coming in from 139 00:10:01.080 --> 00:10:05.679 the east from the waterside, Number three thought he saw something off our right, 140 00:10:05.840 --> 00:10:11.000 and so we broke off and we went head up there and there's a 141 00:10:11.080 --> 00:10:16.159 northeast railroad that ran from Hanoi up to China, and there was an airfield 142 00:10:16.159 --> 00:10:20.799 called cap which was about forty miles northeast of Hanoi east northeast or north northeast, 143 00:10:22.440 --> 00:10:26.360 and so that's where we were heading in that direction. And all of 144 00:10:26.360 --> 00:10:30.440 a sudden, I looked down and there were four weeks seventeen's and what they 145 00:10:30.480 --> 00:10:35.279 call trail formation right behind each other, and darn, they didn't come right 146 00:10:35.360 --> 00:10:41.360 underneath us, about five five hundred feet beneath us, and and somebody somebody 147 00:10:41.519 --> 00:10:43.639 keyed the mic says we got a couple of visitors or something like that, 148 00:10:45.240 --> 00:10:48.559 and I just keeped the mics said, didn't make that four. And it 149 00:10:48.600 --> 00:10:54.879 turned out we ended up as I said, it was a perpendicular crossing right, 150 00:10:54.879 --> 00:10:58.919 but he was about five hundred feet low. And they then when they 151 00:10:58.279 --> 00:11:03.320 we came out, uh, they came out lead broke into him, and 152 00:11:03.399 --> 00:11:07.559 we got two and three and four were back there trailing behind us about one 153 00:11:07.559 --> 00:11:11.840 thousand feet and I saw two mixed seventeens coming in there five and I called 154 00:11:11.879 --> 00:11:15.559 him and then they broke into them, and that's the last we saw them. 155 00:11:15.960 --> 00:11:20.559 So we were engaging these two seventeens, and it said. My job 156 00:11:20.639 --> 00:11:24.600 in the back seater was mainly clearing. So I was going from one side 157 00:11:24.639 --> 00:11:30.960 to the other check behind us, and it was amazing. Twice when I 158 00:11:31.000 --> 00:11:33.919 came, I was swiveling around, I saw Mike seventeens up there in the 159 00:11:33.960 --> 00:11:39.000 windscreen. I don't know how we missed him. Then my front seater he 160 00:11:39.200 --> 00:11:43.039 was had been an Astern Korea credited with nine kills the only time I ever 161 00:11:43.120 --> 00:11:48.440 flew with him, and I guess he uh. He was his first mission 162 00:11:48.480 --> 00:11:52.559 over Northfield, what they called Route Pack six, and I was the I 163 00:11:52.559 --> 00:11:56.399 had seventy counters over North Vietnam, seventy missions over North Vietnam. So I 164 00:11:56.440 --> 00:12:00.799 was the old guy, and that's the pattern. They used new guy with 165 00:12:01.200 --> 00:12:05.399 one that's more experienced. So I was his backseater, and darn if I 166 00:12:05.440 --> 00:12:07.480 didn't hear him. All of a sudden, I heard the gun firing, 167 00:12:07.519 --> 00:12:11.799 because we carried an external gun that F four D didn't have an internal and 168 00:12:11.000 --> 00:12:15.720 I hear the gun firing, and I said his name was Jim Lowe, 169 00:12:15.759 --> 00:12:16.919 Major Jim low And I said, mister low did you fire the gun? 170 00:12:16.960 --> 00:12:20.320 He said yes, And I said, sir, did you lead clear you. 171 00:12:20.480 --> 00:12:22.399 He said no, and I said, sir, you know, you 172 00:12:22.399 --> 00:12:26.519 know, when you're on the wing, your job is to be watching lead 173 00:12:26.080 --> 00:12:30.879 and staying with him and covering him, and your job is not to be 174 00:12:31.559 --> 00:12:35.879 unless lead clears you to be firing. Was one thing. You could lee 175 00:12:35.879 --> 00:12:39.200 could fly into the bullets, or you could actually had, you know, 176 00:12:39.279 --> 00:12:43.960 run into lead or something. You know, so it's dangerous. So anyway, 177 00:12:43.000 --> 00:12:46.279 I just said, sir, you're not to call fire from the wing 178 00:12:46.360 --> 00:12:50.879 unless lead clears you. And darn I For about another minute and a half 179 00:12:50.159 --> 00:12:54.879 or two later, I hear the again, same thing, and I said, 180 00:12:54.919 --> 00:12:56.200 Ma, sorre low, you're not a loud You're not supposed fire the 181 00:12:56.200 --> 00:13:01.559 gun unless you're cleared by lead. He didn't say anything, but we finally 182 00:13:01.159 --> 00:13:07.440 it turned out. Then our lead, our meigs broke off and they landed 183 00:13:07.480 --> 00:13:11.600 up at the airfield, and then lead our flight lead took us around the 184 00:13:11.600 --> 00:13:16.320 airfield. I was joking that he was even their gunners a little practice, 185 00:13:16.440 --> 00:13:22.080 and I don't know why they we had stuff going off. They had thirty 186 00:13:22.120 --> 00:13:26.120 seven to fifty seven to eighty five millimeter. You could tell by the color 187 00:13:26.120 --> 00:13:28.240 of smoke what type of weapons they were, and I mean they were. 188 00:13:28.320 --> 00:13:31.559 They had it all around us, and I don't know how they missed us, 189 00:13:31.600 --> 00:13:35.159 but we circled and finally they know, I guess, watched them land 190 00:13:35.720 --> 00:13:39.879 and then we started degressing. And by then the strike force and number three 191 00:13:39.879 --> 00:13:43.159 and four had already made it out. And I didn't realize at the time, 192 00:13:43.200 --> 00:13:48.200 but they there was a Make twenty one sitting at twenty three thousand feet 193 00:13:48.320 --> 00:13:50.559 and that was the standard practice that the Soviets used, and of course they 194 00:13:50.600 --> 00:13:56.000 taught to Vietnameesis too, and their brothers as they called the brothers of the 195 00:13:56.039 --> 00:14:00.440 Socialist camp, all the other communist countries, and so this I was up 196 00:14:00.440 --> 00:14:05.720 there visually directing, and as soon as we were egressing and the are the 197 00:14:05.879 --> 00:14:09.559 to makes it all landed, he just nodes it over. When after burner 198 00:14:09.919 --> 00:14:13.440 about two miles away, he holds off and he's seeking missile right up our 199 00:14:13.559 --> 00:14:18.960 number two exhausted and blew the tail off the aircraft. And so, as 200 00:14:18.960 --> 00:14:22.519 I used to say, the air Force, great air force, air force 201 00:14:22.600 --> 00:14:26.159 is a great airplane, but not so good in two pieces. So and 202 00:14:26.440 --> 00:14:31.279 it turned out a little bit of irony. And the one fact that I 203 00:14:31.360 --> 00:14:35.039 used to say, my front Cedar had been an Ason Korea, And it 204 00:14:35.159 --> 00:14:39.159 turned out that the guy flying the MiG and the mid seventeens were not North 205 00:14:39.200 --> 00:14:45.080 Vietnamese. The North Koreans were actually operating Makes seventeens and Make twenty one out 206 00:14:45.080 --> 00:14:50.120 of Carepa Airfield in sixty seven and sixty eight. And I had a man 207 00:14:50.159 --> 00:14:54.679 who checked the He was able to get the North Vietnamese air activity records and 208 00:14:54.720 --> 00:15:00.039 he checked in the North Vietnamese didn't have an aircraft up that day. So 209 00:15:00.080 --> 00:15:03.440 he agrees with me that it was the North Koreans flying that day. And 210 00:15:03.519 --> 00:15:07.519 so the guy that got us, I heard the intel folks told me after 211 00:15:09.279 --> 00:15:11.000 he broke off and went up land in China and got some fuel, had 212 00:15:11.000 --> 00:15:15.679 a bite dat came back be ready for the afternoon missions, you know. 213 00:15:16.360 --> 00:15:22.120 And so but anyway, needless to say, I'm coming down the airplane and 214 00:15:22.200 --> 00:15:26.879 the I just got a quick call off on what's called guard frequency, emergency 215 00:15:26.879 --> 00:15:31.440 frequency, just saying we've been hit. We had to get out. And 216 00:15:31.759 --> 00:15:35.519 I looked down timeter and it was eighty five hundred eight thousand, that quick 217 00:15:35.320 --> 00:15:41.120 and that quickly, and anytime you're below ten thousand feet uncontrolled, your altimeter 218 00:15:41.320 --> 00:15:43.240 has a lag in it, so you don't know what you're out to do, 219 00:15:43.399 --> 00:15:46.840 so the recommendation as you punch. So I just said I'm getting out 220 00:15:46.879 --> 00:15:50.399 in my front seat, said you are, and I was gone, and 221 00:15:50.399 --> 00:15:52.840 then he came out behind me, and I of coursely got a good shoot. 222 00:15:54.240 --> 00:15:58.080 And it turned out there was a Martin Baker's seat that they had, 223 00:15:58.279 --> 00:16:02.279 and I'm glad it worked the way it did, you know, because and 224 00:16:02.360 --> 00:16:06.159 I found out later one of the other guys who was up there with me 225 00:16:06.159 --> 00:16:08.519 melt Paula Keith plowing that four seas He was another back seater. He was 226 00:16:08.519 --> 00:16:15.799 over at Farmborough here at the air show in the England about five six years 227 00:16:15.840 --> 00:16:19.159 ago, and he was talking to the Martin Baker folks and they told him 228 00:16:19.159 --> 00:16:22.240 that the seats put out about twenty two to twenty four g's. Back then 229 00:16:22.559 --> 00:16:27.279 they were like a big like shotgunshell, artillery shell to kick you out instead 230 00:16:27.279 --> 00:16:33.039 of the rocket. So but anyway, they tell everybody he's better take those 231 00:16:33.120 --> 00:16:36.919 g's and riding in the airplane, the gis you take there. So we 232 00:16:37.720 --> 00:16:41.000 anyway, I'm coming down the chute and front seaters, I can see him 233 00:16:41.000 --> 00:16:44.519 down beneath me. He's drifting off some low hills and I'm going down what 234 00:16:44.600 --> 00:16:48.000 I think is the biggest field all in the North Vietnam. That's retired US 235 00:16:48.039 --> 00:16:52.440 Air Force Colonel Howard Hill. When we come back, Colonel Hill tells us 236 00:16:52.440 --> 00:16:56.919 about his capture and abuse at the hands of the North Vietnamese. I'm Greg 237 00:16:56.960 --> 00:17:04.200 Corumbus and this is Terans Chronicles. This is Veterans Chronicles. I'm Greg Corumbas 238 00:17:04.880 --> 00:17:11.480 our guest this weeks retired US Air Force colonel, Vietnam veteran and former prisoner 239 00:17:11.519 --> 00:17:17.000 of war Howard Hill. Just before the break, Colonel Hill recounted being shot 240 00:17:17.039 --> 00:17:21.799 down in December nineteen sixty seven. He now picks up the story with his 241 00:17:21.880 --> 00:17:26.559 capture and what happened next. I see a man running down the dirt road 242 00:17:26.000 --> 00:17:30.359 that seems about a mile away with a rifle, and I thought, we 243 00:17:30.359 --> 00:17:33.400 okay, when I land, I've got to get it out of this stuff 244 00:17:33.400 --> 00:17:37.400 and try and find cover. But as I stood up and now, in 245 00:17:37.519 --> 00:17:41.839 the anytime you do parachute training, they have what they call it five points 246 00:17:41.839 --> 00:17:45.079 of contact. Your heels, your calves, your thigh, your size. 247 00:17:45.119 --> 00:17:48.559 I can't remember what the fizzle one is, but anyway, the way of 248 00:17:48.640 --> 00:17:52.839 landing is supposed to lessen the jolt when he hit the ground. Well, 249 00:17:52.839 --> 00:17:55.519 they also have what they call the sixth point of landing, which is your 250 00:17:55.519 --> 00:18:02.279 butt. So I land on my six point of contact. So anyway, 251 00:18:02.279 --> 00:18:06.160 when I stood up standing about ten feet in front of me were two young 252 00:18:07.000 --> 00:18:11.519 guys about i'd say about twenty or early twenties, and they were dressed in 253 00:18:11.799 --> 00:18:15.839 the shout fifth fifth helmets and they had to baness and their rifle, and 254 00:18:15.839 --> 00:18:21.920 they looked down their sights at me, and so I very quickly. We 255 00:18:21.960 --> 00:18:25.400 had a survival radio that you had a little tube on it so you didn't 256 00:18:25.400 --> 00:18:27.799 have to you could actually speak into the tube. So I pulled out the 257 00:18:27.799 --> 00:18:32.559 antenna, turned it on real quick, and just just in the blind said 258 00:18:33.079 --> 00:18:36.480 and I call signed. That day was Olds. We were in Old an 259 00:18:36.480 --> 00:18:38.480 Old's flight. We were number two, so I just said old two back 260 00:18:38.519 --> 00:18:41.839 seaters captured because I didn't want trying to come in and you know, looking 261 00:18:41.920 --> 00:18:45.599 for me, but I don't. As far as I know, nobody heard 262 00:18:45.640 --> 00:18:49.119 it. It was sort of lying the site and we were down with hills 263 00:18:49.160 --> 00:18:53.640 around us. So but anyway, I was taken in. They came in 264 00:18:53.759 --> 00:18:56.799 stripped my gear off me. They didn't know how to work the buckles they 265 00:18:56.880 --> 00:19:00.640 took. I had two hunting diyes. They were using those to cut the 266 00:19:00.640 --> 00:19:04.559 straps, and I kept thinking they were gonna stab me with them the way 267 00:19:04.559 --> 00:19:08.440 they were doing it. And we happen to have two little flotation devices, 268 00:19:08.440 --> 00:19:11.839 one under water wings in case you went down in water, and you could 269 00:19:11.839 --> 00:19:18.680 pull this little lanyard and it's activated CO two cartridge and inflate them. And 270 00:19:18.000 --> 00:19:22.480 so one of them pulled that thing, and the thing inflated, and of 271 00:19:22.519 --> 00:19:25.319 course I'm standing with my hands up, and when it did, he's taking 272 00:19:25.359 --> 00:19:27.559 the knife and he's stabbing it, and I'm thinking, I'm saying, hey, 273 00:19:27.599 --> 00:19:32.880 taking ease, you're gonna stab me. But anyway, they finally took 274 00:19:32.920 --> 00:19:37.880 my stuff off me, and they tied me up behind me back and took 275 00:19:37.920 --> 00:19:44.720 me down the road to a little place I just called it like it just 276 00:19:44.720 --> 00:19:51.599 a sort of a little thatched bamboo type shelter with a thatched roof, and 277 00:19:52.480 --> 00:19:56.599 it actually had sort of a bed level or something about three feet up you 278 00:19:56.599 --> 00:20:00.119 could sit on. And that's where they just had me. They take away 279 00:20:00.200 --> 00:20:03.880 my flight suit and my boots and you know, everything else. And they 280 00:20:03.880 --> 00:20:07.000 came back and gave me a fly suit and the boots with any laces. 281 00:20:07.319 --> 00:20:08.920 They tied me back up. About four hours later, they got my front 282 00:20:10.000 --> 00:20:17.319 seater and when they brought him in though they didn't, he just had his 283 00:20:17.480 --> 00:20:23.240 white skivvies and white T shirt, and it turned out I had. When 284 00:20:23.279 --> 00:20:29.000 I was waiting for him, I did hear some force come back and there, 285 00:20:29.000 --> 00:20:30.960 because hear him strafen in the areas, and I was just thinking, 286 00:20:32.000 --> 00:20:33.759 I hope they don't kill anybody, Because they killed anybody, these people are 287 00:20:33.759 --> 00:20:37.599 gonna be mad, they'll be pissed, and they'll take it out on me. 288 00:20:37.319 --> 00:20:41.480 But after a while they left, and then I did hear some gunfire 289 00:20:41.519 --> 00:20:48.039 exchange, and I think I think it was my front seater because later when 290 00:20:48.079 --> 00:20:51.279 they were marched just along, they had me in front and they took us 291 00:20:51.319 --> 00:20:53.920 past this little hamlet that had a gate that was open. There's women and 292 00:20:53.960 --> 00:21:00.359 children there, and you know, and my front seaters behind us behind me, 293 00:21:00.359 --> 00:21:04.000 and he's in his T shirt and skivvies, and you know that's back. 294 00:21:04.079 --> 00:21:07.960 We're pretty modest back then, and so I thought that that was not 295 00:21:08.119 --> 00:21:12.680 that good for him to be exposed like this. So I stopped and I'm 296 00:21:12.720 --> 00:21:17.160 sitting there and I'm saying going like this and saying, give me back his 297 00:21:17.200 --> 00:21:19.880 flight get back his flight suit. In the garden behind me, he's got 298 00:21:19.880 --> 00:21:22.359 a be in it and he's just poking me gently with it. Fortunately he 299 00:21:22.359 --> 00:21:27.240 didn't pierced anything trying to get me to move. And finally this other one 300 00:21:27.240 --> 00:21:30.799 of them came up and said him, shoot, you know, shoot, 301 00:21:32.279 --> 00:21:33.559 So it made sense to me that's why he didn't have his flight suit. 302 00:21:34.720 --> 00:21:41.279 So anyway, they took us to a village and they had us sitting separately. 303 00:21:41.920 --> 00:21:44.920 They didn't want us talk or anything, sitting separately, and they had 304 00:21:44.960 --> 00:21:48.759 people in a circle and everything, and they had Sart sitting in his style, 305 00:21:48.079 --> 00:21:51.680 and they woulted to have our heads down. Well I wasn't doing it. 306 00:21:51.799 --> 00:21:53.440 So I was standing there and all of a sudden, this guy, 307 00:21:53.599 --> 00:21:59.319 this is an old man, came behind me and he fipted me really hard 308 00:21:59.319 --> 00:22:00.559 on the back of the head. And boy, when he did, the 309 00:22:00.599 --> 00:22:03.119 crowd loved it. I was sitting there and I thought, boy, if 310 00:22:03.119 --> 00:22:07.359 I could get loose you you regret doing that, you know. But anyway, 311 00:22:07.640 --> 00:22:11.000 and we'll say another story before that before they got my front ceedar, 312 00:22:12.079 --> 00:22:17.559 they had taken me down a trail and had me sitting in this trail there 313 00:22:18.039 --> 00:22:23.240 and Surrey Indian style, and they had the people keeping the militia folks were 314 00:22:23.319 --> 00:22:30.599 keeping the crowds away because as I told you when back when these two guys 315 00:22:30.599 --> 00:22:36.920 with the young bucks with the rifles. Another reason I decided to render was 316 00:22:36.960 --> 00:22:41.680 because there was another forty or fifty natives locals came charging out of the woods 317 00:22:41.720 --> 00:22:45.200 about fifty yards off to my left. So doing the math very quickly, 318 00:22:45.799 --> 00:22:51.119 and even though I couldn't come up with a good Hollywood escape, so that's 319 00:22:51.119 --> 00:22:55.799 why I figured a better surrender. But anyway, the militia guys were keeping 320 00:22:55.799 --> 00:23:00.160 the crowds away. But while I was sitting there on this path, there 321 00:23:00.200 --> 00:23:03.440 was one young guy that had circled around. He's off in the brush there 322 00:23:03.799 --> 00:23:07.400 and he's over there and he's he's waving his fist at me and everything like 323 00:23:07.480 --> 00:23:11.160 that. And unfortunately, when I went to fival school, they did tell 324 00:23:11.200 --> 00:23:15.000 me my arrogance might get me in trouble because they said I was haughty. 325 00:23:15.640 --> 00:23:21.279 And so I'm sitting there and this guy making faces and waving his fist at 326 00:23:21.279 --> 00:23:22.839 me and everything. So I just made faces back. And next day, 327 00:23:22.880 --> 00:23:26.480 I know, the guy's waving a machete and I just you know, and 328 00:23:26.599 --> 00:23:30.279 next then all of a sudden, he comes charging out of the brush, 329 00:23:30.839 --> 00:23:33.319 and unfortunately the milician guy saw him and stopped him. So I thought, 330 00:23:33.359 --> 00:23:37.160 maybe I better toned down by, you know, turning this down a little 331 00:23:37.160 --> 00:23:41.039 bit, you know, because you know, here I was vastly outnumbering and 332 00:23:41.079 --> 00:23:45.640 I'm at the mercy of the militia guys, you know. So anyway, 333 00:23:45.640 --> 00:23:48.519 they brought in my front seater, and then they took us those little village 334 00:23:48.559 --> 00:23:52.480 and they did put us in a little building for a little bit after it 335 00:23:52.519 --> 00:23:56.880 got dark, and they brought in a cup of a small cup of water 336 00:23:57.359 --> 00:24:03.319 and a little uh piece, some baguette, and some orange powder with some 337 00:24:03.799 --> 00:24:07.240 there's sugar is sort of a it's a sort of a brownish color, but 338 00:24:07.359 --> 00:24:12.200 very coarse, not fine crystals. It was big crystals. And so I 339 00:24:12.680 --> 00:24:15.319 eat the sugar. I couldn't eat that powder. It turned out there's ground 340 00:24:15.319 --> 00:24:18.920 pumpkin, I think, But anyway, I had that, and then after 341 00:24:18.960 --> 00:24:22.279 a little bit some other guys came along, those army guys and they came 342 00:24:22.319 --> 00:24:26.839 in blindfolders, tied us up even tighter, and then we stepped out of 343 00:24:27.160 --> 00:24:32.680 this little building we're in. The thing wasn't much bigger than about fifteen feet 344 00:24:32.720 --> 00:24:37.000 by about eight feet the inside of it, and when we stepped out, 345 00:24:37.079 --> 00:24:40.720 it was much cooler out there. He tails outside and said them blindfolded. 346 00:24:41.039 --> 00:24:45.920 All of a sudden, somebody with a mega horn starts bellers out something and 347 00:24:45.960 --> 00:24:48.759 then, oh boy, I could tell there was a big crowd there, 348 00:24:48.240 --> 00:24:53.839 and we were sort of then being kicked and punched, and some I could 349 00:24:53.880 --> 00:24:57.559 hear. This woman came to yelled in my face and slapped me really hard. 350 00:24:57.559 --> 00:25:00.680 The crowd loved it, you know, and I was just They finally 351 00:25:00.759 --> 00:25:03.440 threw me in the jeep on top of it. My friend's seedar was there, 352 00:25:03.440 --> 00:25:06.960 and I got thrown in on top of him. I was just glad 353 00:25:07.000 --> 00:25:10.119 to get out of their place, you know, couldn't see what was going 354 00:25:10.160 --> 00:25:14.000 on, but obviously wouldn't have friend the environment. And then he took us 355 00:25:14.000 --> 00:25:17.200 down, and they lose down and Chopper and took us into Hannoi that night. 356 00:25:17.480 --> 00:25:21.440 So that was my first introduction. And then he took us to what 357 00:25:21.599 --> 00:25:25.559 we called Hanoi Hilton and Wallow. Why don't we come back? Colonel Howard 358 00:25:25.640 --> 00:25:30.799 Hill tells us about life and torture inside the Hanoi Hilton. I'm Greg Corumbus 359 00:25:32.000 --> 00:25:37.480 and this is Veterans Chronicles. This is Veterans Chronicles. I'm Greg Corumbas. 360 00:25:38.000 --> 00:25:42.839 Our guest this week is retired US Air Force Colonel, Vietnam veteran and former 361 00:25:42.880 --> 00:25:48.839 prisoner of war Howard Hill. Colonel Hill just shared the story of his capture 362 00:25:48.839 --> 00:25:52.400 and mistreatment at the hands of the North Vietnamese. He now explains what happened 363 00:25:52.440 --> 00:25:56.240 once he got to the infamous Hanoi Hilton. Well, for Walla has been 364 00:25:56.240 --> 00:26:00.279 alone, but then they came in pretty soon they won stuff and I'm taking 365 00:26:00.279 --> 00:26:02.960 the name right cera lumber date of birth. And so then after a little 366 00:26:02.960 --> 00:26:06.359 bit they came in. They started using ropes to ties up, tie me 367 00:26:06.440 --> 00:26:10.079 up, and then that went on for uh only to the night. And 368 00:26:10.839 --> 00:26:15.519 you know, they tied you up and and I remember being kicked a few 369 00:26:15.519 --> 00:26:18.799 times too in there and everything. And then finally daybreak came and they finally 370 00:26:19.759 --> 00:26:22.519 broke it off, and then they came back that afternoon we started again, 371 00:26:22.880 --> 00:26:26.759 and uh, it's just the first couple of days. You know, they're 372 00:26:26.759 --> 00:26:30.279 trying to get military information out of you. I always say military information is 373 00:26:30.319 --> 00:26:33.160 perishable, so they got to get it quickly if they can. So you 374 00:26:33.200 --> 00:26:37.519 want to avoid providing any military information. And then if you do provide anything, 375 00:26:37.559 --> 00:26:41.119 you want to lie to them. They call it cover stories at survival 376 00:26:41.160 --> 00:26:47.839 school. But but the thing is, they had a little bench about this 377 00:26:47.920 --> 00:26:51.880 how you Saturday, and they had licensed three guys and they're peppering with questions. 378 00:26:52.200 --> 00:26:56.039 So if you tried to they, you know, lied to them, 379 00:26:56.079 --> 00:27:00.160 they might come back and ask you the same question a little later, and 380 00:27:00.200 --> 00:27:03.960 then they're comparing notes. The line is not easy. It you got to 381 00:27:03.960 --> 00:27:07.720 remember it. And so that's why you know, they were saying about honesty 382 00:27:07.799 --> 00:27:11.480 is the best final policy. You don't meddle up your brain with stuff, 383 00:27:11.759 --> 00:27:14.400 So the best thing to do is just be honest, you know, and 384 00:27:14.920 --> 00:27:17.440 accept in that situation. Yeah, well, yeah, you don't want to 385 00:27:17.480 --> 00:27:22.680 reveal anything. But it said the after morning when they left, they left 386 00:27:22.680 --> 00:27:23.839 me a loan, So I just wanted them to called in a corner and 387 00:27:23.920 --> 00:27:26.759 went to sleep till afternoon, came out and start again. We went in 388 00:27:26.799 --> 00:27:30.680 the night and then they next day. Then they finally moved me to a 389 00:27:30.799 --> 00:27:33.079 room. And then after that, the only things they usually wanted was for 390 00:27:33.200 --> 00:27:38.440 propaganda purposes. They might ask you sometime, like they had another interrogation where 391 00:27:38.640 --> 00:27:41.920 they wanted to know all the frequencies for our radars and stuff like that. 392 00:27:42.160 --> 00:27:45.720 I don't know. I told them, I just turned it on. I'd 393 00:27:45.720 --> 00:27:48.720 read the checklist and turned it on and off and see what happens. And 394 00:27:48.799 --> 00:27:52.119 I don't know all the technical details they wanted, you know, and stuff 395 00:27:52.160 --> 00:27:55.559 like that. So explain what you mean by the ropes they had these. 396 00:27:56.680 --> 00:28:02.519 It's actually these nylon straps that we had in our when we seats. When 397 00:28:02.559 --> 00:28:04.359 we sat on the seats, we were actually sitting on sort of container. 398 00:28:04.960 --> 00:28:11.400 It was like a container about I guess about two feet by two feet or 399 00:28:11.440 --> 00:28:18.599 so, and it contains things like the rope in there in case you went 400 00:28:18.640 --> 00:28:25.319 down in the forest. The jungles over there. You could be one hundred 401 00:28:25.359 --> 00:28:27.759 feet above the ground if you got hung up in the trees, or one 402 00:28:27.799 --> 00:28:33.119 hundred and fifty feet. So we used to carry this three quarter inch nylon 403 00:28:33.319 --> 00:28:37.599 rope. They had three thousand pound test straight and I recognize that's what they 404 00:28:37.640 --> 00:28:41.920 were using. To ties up up with and they had me trussed up, 405 00:28:41.200 --> 00:28:45.960 and you know, they let it out Adolf every soften, but they had 406 00:28:45.000 --> 00:28:52.279 me trussed up at one point. It was really weird. I've seen pictures 407 00:28:52.319 --> 00:28:55.599 some guys had it where they had their legs out and they get there, 408 00:28:55.880 --> 00:28:59.039 hit them all the way down their hands and everything like that. Well, 409 00:28:59.119 --> 00:29:00.880 I mean, I think I made a mistake. I sort of met my 410 00:29:00.960 --> 00:29:04.240 legs. Next thing, I know, they had my legs all pushed up 411 00:29:04.480 --> 00:29:11.319 and they actually had me with my head between my legs there. And I 412 00:29:11.440 --> 00:29:14.240 used to say to people, I'm you know, I couldn't kiss my own 413 00:29:14.279 --> 00:29:18.240 bottom. You know, I'm not second double Joindred or anything like that. 414 00:29:18.519 --> 00:29:22.200 But it's amazing. And you could hear things snapping popping inside and everything, 415 00:29:22.480 --> 00:29:29.799 and it really was very surreal experience in many respects U going through that, 416 00:29:30.880 --> 00:29:33.920 and then of course I release service SOLVET and I guess for circulation, and 417 00:29:33.960 --> 00:29:37.359 then I want to ask you questions and touts you up a little bit and 418 00:29:37.440 --> 00:29:41.799 then back again. You know, if you didn't like what you were, 419 00:29:41.000 --> 00:29:45.359 you know, saying, as I said, you gotta be careful because if 420 00:29:45.400 --> 00:29:48.200 you told them something and then they asked you again, and and they wanted 421 00:29:48.240 --> 00:29:53.559 things like targets. I had no idea, you know what future targets, 422 00:29:53.599 --> 00:29:57.119 you know, And you know they didn't like what you were saying. They 423 00:29:57.279 --> 00:30:00.200 just start put you on the preser. Sure again, see if they you 424 00:30:00.240 --> 00:30:03.640 know, they can break you more. And uh so a lot of what 425 00:30:03.680 --> 00:30:07.759 they knew. Of course, I was the first lieutenant when I was shot 426 00:30:07.839 --> 00:30:11.599 down, so I can tell them, hey, I'm just the first lieutenant. 427 00:30:11.640 --> 00:30:12.960 I don't know anything. And I use the same in their military, 428 00:30:14.319 --> 00:30:21.359 you know. And so anyway, it's you know, but of course I 429 00:30:21.359 --> 00:30:25.359 don't know. You're all lone, so you don't know what's happening to somebody 430 00:30:25.400 --> 00:30:30.559 else whatever, you know, And but it's you know, it's and and 431 00:30:30.599 --> 00:30:33.079 of course then when they had you after that, it's it's for propaganda purposes. 432 00:30:33.079 --> 00:30:38.920 They want you to either write or read or record a and it wore 433 00:30:40.640 --> 00:30:44.920 things like that, uh whanted you, you know, say something against what 434 00:30:44.960 --> 00:30:51.880 they call the People's Liberation Armed Forces we call them viatcom And and it depends 435 00:30:51.920 --> 00:30:56.640 on your interrogators. Some of them were more ruthless than others. Some of 436 00:30:56.680 --> 00:30:59.119 them, you know, you'd ask you, what do you think of the 437 00:30:59.119 --> 00:31:02.680 people's liberation on forces. And if you didn't pair it back what they said. 438 00:31:02.759 --> 00:31:06.480 Next thing, you know, you're getting knocked off the stool and beating 439 00:31:06.559 --> 00:31:10.000 up, and you're there loan and you know what you call them quizzes with 440 00:31:10.079 --> 00:31:15.200 the interrogations and everybody else locked up. You got a guarden standing outside the 441 00:31:15.279 --> 00:31:19.319 room. So you know, it's it's hard on the ego to just sit 442 00:31:19.359 --> 00:31:22.200 there and take it. But you know you can always sit there. Okay, 443 00:31:22.240 --> 00:31:26.119 you put up a five, you're gonna end up being worse offt for 444 00:31:26.200 --> 00:31:29.440 it. So you just got to resist best you can. Did they ever 445 00:31:29.519 --> 00:31:33.720 try to tell you lies to get you to talk like things had gone allegedly 446 00:31:33.799 --> 00:31:38.079 very badly for the American? Oh? Sure sure. In fact, what 447 00:31:38.240 --> 00:31:45.480 was funny? Air Force times back in about I've been March April sixty seven 448 00:31:45.799 --> 00:31:49.880 had a Q cartoon. It showed pilots two airplanes going down and two pilots 449 00:31:49.880 --> 00:31:55.279 and shoots and one of them saying to the other, well hand oil claim 450 00:31:55.359 --> 00:32:00.839 for in the Air Force? Omit one? So yeah, they they they 451 00:32:00.960 --> 00:32:05.400 used to have a radio broadcast as Radio Hanoi, and uh, the routine 452 00:32:05.480 --> 00:32:08.440 was they woke up in the morning and you either got into your we had 453 00:32:08.440 --> 00:32:14.079 a five about five gallon bucket bathroom purposes in the room. You got to 454 00:32:14.200 --> 00:32:17.839 empty that or somebody empty it and usually get out to do a quick bath 455 00:32:17.960 --> 00:32:21.920 a few minutes. That was only during the week. On Sundays, you 456 00:32:21.960 --> 00:32:24.759 didn't get that, uh you know, didn't get any bath. And then 457 00:32:24.920 --> 00:32:30.079 uh you had a new noon meal and then a siesta, and then an 458 00:32:30.119 --> 00:32:35.400 evening meal and then at night and these play radio Hanoi. Uh there during 459 00:32:35.880 --> 00:32:39.200 just started siesta and also just for you, uh when you woke up in 460 00:32:39.240 --> 00:32:43.119 the morning, they played it also. So yeah, they used to talk 461 00:32:43.160 --> 00:32:46.400 about uh, I mean they were they defeated the US Army four times over. 462 00:32:46.759 --> 00:32:51.119 They destroyed more aircraft than the US is ever produced in its history. 463 00:32:51.480 --> 00:32:55.839 Uh you know, they they they always uh you know, uh, I 464 00:32:55.880 --> 00:33:00.920 guess maybe their own people believed it. But of course, as I always 465 00:33:00.960 --> 00:33:04.759 remember that cartoon about hand acclaim four in the Air Force will admit one. 466 00:33:04.920 --> 00:33:07.319 So we may have been guilty in some respects too. But yeah, they 467 00:33:07.759 --> 00:33:15.160 and and of course they I will tell you too. They they they would 468 00:33:15.400 --> 00:33:20.240 talk about that. They make say things like you you could go home. 469 00:33:20.920 --> 00:33:27.440 I had one interrogator one time saying that threatening me, tell me that they 470 00:33:27.440 --> 00:33:31.079 could kill me or even hurt me very badly, is the way you put 471 00:33:31.119 --> 00:33:35.559 it. I've always remember that they we can kill you or even hurt you 472 00:33:35.720 --> 00:33:37.680 very badly. So I'm thinking, well, I don't know if you killed 473 00:33:37.720 --> 00:33:45.920 me. But it turned out the guy who's flying with my front seater after 474 00:33:45.960 --> 00:33:50.799 i'd been there, uh, he took an early release. And we've been 475 00:33:50.799 --> 00:33:54.000 there about seven and a half months, and I got called to a quiz 476 00:33:54.640 --> 00:33:59.720 and they announced it on the radio. Hannoi the names, and I'm sitting 477 00:33:59.759 --> 00:34:01.480 there's a well, jeez, that's the guy's flying with only time I flew 478 00:34:01.519 --> 00:34:07.639 with him. But they had three sets of documents and they verbade him one 479 00:34:07.679 --> 00:34:14.480 of them for each and different names on them, different handwriting styles, but 480 00:34:15.039 --> 00:34:20.360 each one was there was confessional war crimes and a letter to Ho Chi Minh, 481 00:34:20.440 --> 00:34:23.960 the president of North Vietnam, requesting amnesty. And they were identical. 482 00:34:24.480 --> 00:34:29.760 And I've talked to some people and they gave me and I could take them 483 00:34:29.760 --> 00:34:32.679 back to my room. I took him just to show my roommate the guy's 484 00:34:32.760 --> 00:34:36.440 room with he was another four back seater. After about a month. We 485 00:34:36.480 --> 00:34:39.880 got paired up and he got shut down the day after I did. But 486 00:34:40.239 --> 00:34:45.679 it turned out that they also gave me pen and a little ink, bottle 487 00:34:45.719 --> 00:34:49.960 of ink and a little pen. They said, you know, for me 488 00:34:50.039 --> 00:34:52.239 to write everything. But I took it all back to the room, just 489 00:34:52.360 --> 00:34:54.840 let my roommate see it. And after a few days it kept coming by, 490 00:34:55.159 --> 00:34:58.559 and when I wouldn't do anything, they went in and took him back. 491 00:34:59.039 --> 00:35:01.800 But I'm convinced authentic. I've talked to other people who said that they 492 00:35:01.800 --> 00:35:06.400 were offered the same thing and they were shown that, you know, documents 493 00:35:06.440 --> 00:35:08.440 the same thing. You know, say that. So my thought, my 494 00:35:08.559 --> 00:35:14.760 thought is is that the people that went home early, except for one who 495 00:35:14.800 --> 00:35:17.559 was ordered out and Navy seamen. He was ordered out by the senior ranking 496 00:35:17.559 --> 00:35:22.280 officer. But the others, uh, they violate the code of conduct which 497 00:35:22.400 --> 00:35:28.800 said that we will not accept parle or special favors. And I'm convinced also 498 00:35:28.960 --> 00:35:32.559 that those documents were authentic. And I'm and so that's what I think that 499 00:35:32.840 --> 00:35:37.360 in order to get out, they you know, and maybe there were serception 500 00:35:37.559 --> 00:35:40.119 that I don't know, but I just know for those three I did see, 501 00:35:40.440 --> 00:35:45.559 documents had their names on and signatures, and I didn't see him write 502 00:35:45.599 --> 00:35:49.800 them, but I'm convinced of authentic. But anyway, these so yeah, 503 00:35:50.199 --> 00:35:53.599 you know, being offered that you know there was, but you know I 504 00:35:53.840 --> 00:35:59.079 always tell I'll go home and the warriors, and no matter how long it 505 00:35:59.119 --> 00:36:04.800 takes, when we were our motto became once we after Sante raiding, mell 506 00:36:04.840 --> 00:36:12.159 got consolidated there in while, oh, our motto was returned with honor. 507 00:36:12.960 --> 00:36:15.639 And you know, no matter how long it's it going to take, we 508 00:36:15.679 --> 00:36:21.880 were planning. And give you an example, give you a little history. 509 00:36:21.880 --> 00:36:28.239 I'm sorry. President Johnson stopped all bombing north of the twentieth parallel March thirty 510 00:36:28.280 --> 00:36:31.440 first, nineteen sixty eight, and Honette Hanoi and High found their main harbor 511 00:36:31.440 --> 00:36:35.840 twenty one degrees north, so that meant no more bombing up there. And 512 00:36:35.880 --> 00:36:38.679 then he stopped all bombing North Vietnam November first to sixty eight. He's opened 513 00:36:38.920 --> 00:36:44.800 to sway the election and didn't work. Pubert Humphrey lost and Nixon won. 514 00:36:45.800 --> 00:36:50.480 And then the US except for the Santi raid, which is November seventy, 515 00:36:51.559 --> 00:36:58.000 there were no US aircraft up there until May of seventy two, when the 516 00:36:58.079 --> 00:37:04.119 US resumed bombing because of what the end of March, the North Vietnamese as 517 00:37:04.199 --> 00:37:07.480 Nixon was drawing down, the US troops and the South Vietnamese army were taken 518 00:37:07.519 --> 00:37:13.960 over the North Mease drove tanks across the military zone, and so the US 519 00:37:14.079 --> 00:37:16.599 then came back and resumed the bomby starting in May. So we went for 520 00:37:16.639 --> 00:37:21.880 over four years there basically no US aircraft up there, no air activity, 521 00:37:22.079 --> 00:37:27.199 and so the Vietnamese had us there and wallow after that they brought a tiro 522 00:37:27.280 --> 00:37:30.400 out lying camps, and there were seven of us one day standing around conjecturing 523 00:37:30.400 --> 00:37:34.559 about how much longer we thought the war was going to go on, and 524 00:37:34.599 --> 00:37:38.559 based upon the pace at which it had been conducted, we came to a 525 00:37:38.599 --> 00:37:44.440 consensus of another ten or fifteen years. And at that point I I've done 526 00:37:44.480 --> 00:37:46.159 been there about four and a half years. But we all looked at each 527 00:37:46.199 --> 00:37:52.800 other and it seemed very realistic. Another ten to fifteen years, that's what 528 00:37:52.840 --> 00:38:00.760 we're respecting. And Sweden in those days was granting asylum to American draft dodgers 529 00:38:00.760 --> 00:38:07.719 and deserters, and so one of the guys, after we went around, 530 00:38:07.719 --> 00:38:13.079 we all and we all accept it seemed very plausible and everything. Nobody was 531 00:38:13.159 --> 00:38:15.760 upset and all about it, but one of them, Jim Berger, I 532 00:38:15.760 --> 00:38:19.880 remember he finally said, well, I'm gonna give him another fifteen years, 533 00:38:19.920 --> 00:38:22.880 then I'm gonna go to Sweden, and had a little bit of levity to 534 00:38:22.920 --> 00:38:27.679 it. But fortunately we didn't have to wait because President Nixon, you know, 535 00:38:27.719 --> 00:38:31.400 when he came became president, he wanted to withdraw the US troops and 536 00:38:31.719 --> 00:38:35.679 with honor, and he was drawn it down. I think he has the 537 00:38:35.760 --> 00:38:40.280 US down to about her sixty five thousand troops there in sixty in seventy two 538 00:38:42.159 --> 00:38:47.079 from a height about five hundred and fifty thousand. So Nixon was trying to 539 00:38:47.119 --> 00:38:52.559 get us out, but he had Kissinger, his Secretary of State, in 540 00:38:52.639 --> 00:38:59.280 Paris, inducting, you know, negotiations with Lee Ductee for the North Vietnamese 541 00:38:59.760 --> 00:39:05.599 and and he was very frustrated with the pace of negotiations and in fact, 542 00:39:05.599 --> 00:39:08.400 it took him six months to even determined the size and the shape of the 543 00:39:08.440 --> 00:39:14.320 table. And so Nixon was frustrated. And also even though he had won 544 00:39:14.360 --> 00:39:21.159 reelection in November seventy two very handily, he only lost the state of Massachusetts 545 00:39:21.199 --> 00:39:27.559 and district of but he also recognized the Democrats had won the House of Representatives 546 00:39:27.559 --> 00:39:30.440 and when they took power in January, he would have even less freedom of 547 00:39:30.480 --> 00:39:37.440 action. So he authorized what became known as the Linebacker two, colloquially known 548 00:39:37.480 --> 00:39:43.320 as Christmas bombing because it was December eighteenth to Ninete swing ninth, nineteen seventy 549 00:39:43.320 --> 00:39:47.119 two. And now the purists always say eleven days because he took Christmas off, 550 00:39:47.159 --> 00:39:51.239 but I used to always say in twelve days. He ended a war 551 00:39:51.280 --> 00:39:53.559 that had gone on for twelve years because the North Vietnamese, I mean, 552 00:39:53.599 --> 00:39:58.519 they had B fifty two's going up there, fighters around the clock, and 553 00:39:58.719 --> 00:40:00.159 whereas before we used to go in hit him in the morning, him in 554 00:40:00.199 --> 00:40:06.000 the afternoons radically, but now this was around the clock, and Northvietames ran 555 00:40:06.039 --> 00:40:09.840 out of their defenses. They mined their harbor of Hanoi starting in maya seventy 556 00:40:09.880 --> 00:40:14.639 two. It had been left open the whole war until Maya seventy two, 557 00:40:15.000 --> 00:40:20.440 and the Soviets and Chinese ships were bringing in all this warmterary. So they 558 00:40:20.480 --> 00:40:22.960 finally had him on their knees, and the North Peta mes went ahead and 559 00:40:23.000 --> 00:40:30.119 capitulated, and they led the peace agreements and are being released in February March 560 00:40:30.119 --> 00:40:35.519 of nineteen seventy three, known as Operational Homecoming. And so, as I 561 00:40:35.559 --> 00:40:39.840 said, we're all very grateful to President Nixon, because yes, we would 562 00:40:39.880 --> 00:40:45.519 have been prepared. I'm sure that another ten or fifteen years. Granted there 563 00:40:45.519 --> 00:40:47.840 may been a few people taking the early releases, like the ones that had 564 00:40:47.840 --> 00:40:53.559 bailed on us and deserted us before, you know, but those are just 565 00:40:53.559 --> 00:40:58.400 a handful, but I'm sure the best majority of guys they were going to 566 00:40:58.440 --> 00:41:02.719 do whatever took to return with honor. But fortunately President Nixon say this, 567 00:41:02.840 --> 00:41:06.719 and we didn't have to a couple questions before we talk about your release. 568 00:41:07.239 --> 00:41:09.000 You mentioned being in your room a couple of times. Sounds like you had 569 00:41:09.000 --> 00:41:14.000 a roommate or at least one described what the room was like. Well, 570 00:41:14.039 --> 00:41:16.360 the first room I was in was about five by seven. Then I got 571 00:41:16.360 --> 00:41:20.159 moved to him in his room about eight by eight, had bunk beds on 572 00:41:20.199 --> 00:41:22.320 each side, had a little walkway between him and down at the end of 573 00:41:22.320 --> 00:41:27.119 the one of them was a little bucket bathroom purposes. And then we were 574 00:41:27.159 --> 00:41:30.400 there for about a month and then he moved just another camp. When we 575 00:41:30.440 --> 00:41:34.000 got what we call a suite his room that was about fourteen by fourteen, 576 00:41:34.800 --> 00:41:37.960 and we thought it was great. The theme is Terry and I. I 577 00:41:37.960 --> 00:41:42.760 think we were together for fourteen months before we got a roommate. And he 578 00:41:42.800 --> 00:41:45.239 and I were so much different than each other. He was, for one 579 00:41:45.280 --> 00:41:50.360 thing, he's five years older. Even though he was he come in the 580 00:41:50.400 --> 00:41:54.440 Air Force late. He was older, and so you know he's coming in 581 00:41:54.480 --> 00:42:00.199 after I had and everything, and he's another four back seater. And but 582 00:42:00.400 --> 00:42:07.800 the thing it is being locked up like that, you know, just you 583 00:42:07.840 --> 00:42:14.079 know, it's it's like you know, you know, you know, you 584 00:42:14.079 --> 00:42:17.960 appreciate having a roommate. The fact that the conditions we were in the weather 585 00:42:19.239 --> 00:42:22.280 was very much like here get hot munkey in summer and get cold in winter. 586 00:42:22.400 --> 00:42:27.599 Sometimes you get a little freezing at night. And we didn't have heatery 587 00:42:27.679 --> 00:42:30.719 or conditioning. It was basically which your body generated, and the room didn't 588 00:42:30.719 --> 00:42:36.079 have that great ventilation. So being in that situation, it wasn't a very 589 00:42:36.079 --> 00:42:39.280 pleasant situation. So sometimes a person you're with, you, you know, 590 00:42:39.599 --> 00:42:44.239 any resentment you might have, your sort of you know, conveying it to 591 00:42:44.320 --> 00:42:52.440 them. So and at night, as I said, they they pretty much 592 00:42:52.559 --> 00:42:57.360 except to get out the maybe shower or go to quiz h. They you 593 00:42:57.360 --> 00:43:00.119 know, most of time you're locked up like that. And then and then 594 00:43:00.199 --> 00:43:04.039 they did sometimes would have a work detail. And if they have had a 595 00:43:04.039 --> 00:43:10.920 work detail, like maybe they we took our buckets and they had an open 596 00:43:10.960 --> 00:43:15.519 sewer system. I call them binge dishes, and you jump your bucket there. 597 00:43:15.079 --> 00:43:20.719 And occasionally each little building had its own little walled areas or like a 598 00:43:20.760 --> 00:43:24.119 comput here, and it have us take the buckets and dredge the binge dishes 599 00:43:24.159 --> 00:43:27.760 and take the sledge out of it and put it around the plants. And 600 00:43:27.800 --> 00:43:30.760 it's human fertilizer. But it worked, you know. But the thing it 601 00:43:30.800 --> 00:43:34.320 is, they did that unless you bathe again, especially when it was hot. 602 00:43:34.360 --> 00:43:37.840 It was great to have a second bath in the day because those rooms, 603 00:43:37.920 --> 00:43:43.559 the walls are about a foot thick, and you could feel they radiated 604 00:43:43.599 --> 00:43:45.400 heat during the day because they got heat soaked. And then the winter they 605 00:43:45.400 --> 00:43:49.599 get cold soaked. So you can step outside it might be fifty degrees and 606 00:43:49.599 --> 00:43:52.360 you get back into room. It was just you can tell this a big 607 00:43:52.360 --> 00:43:55.880 difference in cold in your room. But you know, so, and there 608 00:43:55.920 --> 00:44:00.800 was another time we had another work detail we call they had in one camp, 609 00:44:00.880 --> 00:44:07.000 they had us making coal balls as their coal was I called pituminous coals 610 00:44:07.039 --> 00:44:09.920 with little pieces, and then mix it with mud and you'd make these sort 611 00:44:09.920 --> 00:44:15.360 of baseball size coal balls. Made it a little bit bigger than that, 612 00:44:15.639 --> 00:44:19.519 and you put them to dry and then use those for cooking in the kitchen, 613 00:44:19.800 --> 00:44:22.039 and your hands would be all black. But the thing is, then 614 00:44:22.039 --> 00:44:24.239 if you have to bathe again. But the other thing, when you're outside, 615 00:44:24.320 --> 00:44:27.760 you also get a chance to look around and see where you know, 616 00:44:27.920 --> 00:44:30.159 things like that. So if you did get a chance to get out of 617 00:44:30.199 --> 00:44:34.000 your room, you did. And then of course at night they had a 618 00:44:34.039 --> 00:44:37.119 bare light bulb hanging in the room, so they could there's a little flap 619 00:44:37.119 --> 00:44:38.800 on the door, they could look in and check on you. The thing 620 00:44:38.840 --> 00:44:43.719 it is, though, with that bare light, the flies would come land 621 00:44:43.800 --> 00:44:47.360 on the ceiling, and then the geckos could walk upside down the ceiling and 622 00:44:47.360 --> 00:44:51.440 they'd get a few inches away from a fly and they jump, and amazing, 623 00:44:51.480 --> 00:44:52.800 they could jump and get the fly and still hang on. Most of 624 00:44:52.840 --> 00:44:57.920 the time. Occasionally you hear a splat and there'd be a gecko lying belly 625 00:44:58.000 --> 00:44:59.840 down on the floor. And you think he's dead, and after a few 626 00:45:00.000 --> 00:45:04.280 or so he's shaken off and go right off again. And I heard the 627 00:45:04.320 --> 00:45:07.800 record in one room was fifty six flies in one night by single gecko. 628 00:45:07.760 --> 00:45:12.079 So then there was also the gecko mating ritual. You know, that was 629 00:45:12.119 --> 00:45:16.599 another thing. You can make a few crude jokes about that. Our guest 630 00:45:16.599 --> 00:45:22.039 has retired US Air Force Colonel Howard Hill, a Vietnam veteran who spent more 631 00:45:22.119 --> 00:45:24.920 than five years as a prisoner of war. In a moment, Colonel Hill 632 00:45:24.960 --> 00:45:31.159 explains how he stayed mentally sharp in prison by composing poetry about the greatness of 633 00:45:31.199 --> 00:45:37.360 America. And he'll describe what it was like to be free again. I'm 634 00:45:37.360 --> 00:45:45.320 Greg Corumbus, and this is Veterans Chronicles. This is Veterans' Chronicles. I'm 635 00:45:45.360 --> 00:45:50.639 Greg Corumbus. Our guest this week is retired US Air Force colonel, Vietnam 636 00:45:50.719 --> 00:45:54.639 veteran and former prisoner of war, Howard Hill. In a moment, Colonel 637 00:45:54.719 --> 00:45:59.719 Hill will take us back to that wonderful moment where he regained his freedom in 638 00:45:59.800 --> 00:46:05.039 nighteteen seventy three. But first, while still languishing in the Hanway Hilton, 639 00:46:05.639 --> 00:46:10.599 Colonel Hill kept his mind sharp and his thoughts clear by composing poetry that extolled 640 00:46:10.639 --> 00:46:15.639 what he loves about America. I wrote for the fourth of July seventy one, 641 00:46:15.960 --> 00:46:21.920 Remember, you know, beloved, heritage is our by God's own hand. 642 00:46:22.679 --> 00:46:28.000 Freedom's flower was planted at our nation's door, or something like that. 643 00:46:28.960 --> 00:46:35.639 And I closed it off with the stanzas that goes referring to the flower being 644 00:46:35.679 --> 00:46:40.840 a metaphor for freedom, and that about how it has to be taken care 645 00:46:40.880 --> 00:46:45.960 of. Much needed care cannot be sloughed. A few must bear the load 646 00:46:46.039 --> 00:46:52.400 for all. From sun silk shores to windswept bluffs, we few will answer 647 00:46:52.480 --> 00:46:57.880 duty's call. And to the Vietnam best. It's like I spoke to some 648 00:46:58.159 --> 00:47:00.719 as a thing a couple of years ago, years ago, and I closed 649 00:47:00.760 --> 00:47:06.159 off with that last stanza because I said, you were the wee few who 650 00:47:06.280 --> 00:47:08.639 answered duty's call. And that's the way I feel about it, the ones 651 00:47:08.679 --> 00:47:13.280 that went over there and served. And I wished every Vietnam bett had gotten 652 00:47:13.320 --> 00:47:19.480 to welcome home we because they deserved it, you know. And but yeah, 653 00:47:20.119 --> 00:47:25.599 feel strongly that very important. We're very fortunate to live in America. 654 00:47:27.199 --> 00:47:31.199 Tell me about the day you became free again. Oh okay, well they 655 00:47:31.960 --> 00:47:36.360 they busted us to uh. Now, anytime they ever moved us before, 656 00:47:36.719 --> 00:47:43.360 they always had us in uh either in vehicles that had tarps covering the sides, 657 00:47:43.440 --> 00:47:45.239 the fronts and backs and everything so you couldn't see out, or if 658 00:47:45.280 --> 00:47:50.119 you were like one time they did move us on a bus or something where 659 00:47:50.159 --> 00:47:53.559 we're seated. Now, sometimes in the trucks you didn't have anything used on 660 00:47:53.239 --> 00:47:57.679 the on the metal deck, but this time we were seated, but they 661 00:47:57.719 --> 00:48:01.760 had a there's a claw that we had like a small towel and they put 662 00:48:01.760 --> 00:48:06.559 anyway, I think that's what they put over eyes. But mine was thin 663 00:48:06.679 --> 00:48:08.960 enough that actually and we're traveling at night, but they wants to see, 664 00:48:09.000 --> 00:48:13.400 but actually there's thin enough. I could actually make out some of the stuff 665 00:48:13.400 --> 00:48:15.760 as we're traveling through Hanoi there, and I could see some of what was 666 00:48:15.760 --> 00:48:20.840 going on in there, movings between camps. But that day when they put 667 00:48:20.920 --> 00:48:22.679 us on board and the bus and nothing, we got to look out and 668 00:48:22.719 --> 00:48:30.000 everything. And I do remember we passed this one rail yard that it was 669 00:48:30.079 --> 00:48:35.960 amazing that the bombing had been done by these fifty twos and everything. I 670 00:48:36.000 --> 00:48:38.679 mean, it was so precise they took out this railroad yard. I mean 671 00:48:38.719 --> 00:48:43.880 it was in shambles, and buildings on either side were still standing, you 672 00:48:43.920 --> 00:48:46.280 know. I mean a few of them shown a few bawk marts, but 673 00:48:46.360 --> 00:48:51.199 I mean it was fantastic the fact that those guys were doing, because you 674 00:48:51.199 --> 00:48:53.679 know, a lot of people don't realize that B fifty two is going into 675 00:48:53.719 --> 00:49:00.800 that environment. The number I had was fifteen B fifty two we lost and 676 00:49:00.920 --> 00:49:07.519 during Linebacker two and only one of their five man crews and only one crew 677 00:49:07.559 --> 00:49:12.239 made it back into and we also lost another eleven fighters or attack aircraft and 678 00:49:12.280 --> 00:49:15.239 a chopper. So it wasn't cheap. I mean, those guys went in 679 00:49:15.280 --> 00:49:19.719 there and to get us out, but that was really great. They took 680 00:49:19.800 --> 00:49:23.559 us in and we got the airport and then got off and one was there 681 00:49:23.599 --> 00:49:29.760 and close to Clark air Base, and it was fantastic, you know. 682 00:49:30.000 --> 00:49:35.599 And I'd say Clark for three days. And then my wife was in the 683 00:49:35.679 --> 00:49:38.599 DC area. She had been very active in the League of Families helping that 684 00:49:38.679 --> 00:49:43.400 gets set up. She did and very active member, and she did a 685 00:49:43.440 --> 00:49:51.840 lot of speaking for the State Department in DoD public speaking and in fact here 686 00:49:51.880 --> 00:49:57.199 locally, it turned out the daily News newspaper here they actually published the front 687 00:49:57.199 --> 00:50:00.159 page of their paper. One time was a letter in Vietna to me. 688 00:50:00.320 --> 00:50:02.559 It was written in Vietnamese. It was supposed to be an open letter to 689 00:50:02.679 --> 00:50:10.519 North Vietnam to have them treat respect us as to honor the Geneva Conventions on 690 00:50:10.599 --> 00:50:17.840 Treatment of Prisoners of War. And so my wife they England actually flew copies 691 00:50:17.880 --> 00:50:22.920 up to one thousand copies up to DC to Andrew's Air Force Base, and 692 00:50:22.159 --> 00:50:24.280 my wife was the one picked him up, took them down the League of 693 00:50:24.320 --> 00:50:29.360 Families and they took around distributed them to all the congressman's offices and all the 694 00:50:30.079 --> 00:50:34.400 government offices are their DC area and everything like that. So she's very active. 695 00:50:34.480 --> 00:50:37.440 So I supposed to come back to Andrews three days there later, but 696 00:50:37.480 --> 00:50:45.920 as we were inbound, normally could take a thirty nine cross wind component, 697 00:50:46.559 --> 00:50:52.159 but because we were board, they lowered the standard to twenty and since there's 698 00:50:52.440 --> 00:50:57.159 limits, they diverted u Ascott Air Force Base near Saint Louis. So here 699 00:50:57.840 --> 00:51:00.199 I got delayed to day and get to meet my wife's So then the next 700 00:51:00.239 --> 00:51:05.519 day we got to fly into Andrews and got to be there and I will 701 00:51:05.519 --> 00:51:09.719 say one thing was it wasn't easy. I hadn't seen her five and a 702 00:51:09.760 --> 00:51:14.920 half years, and of course when she was twenty two when I left, 703 00:51:14.920 --> 00:51:17.280 the twenty seven when I got back, and here she'd been dealing with all 704 00:51:17.360 --> 00:51:22.840 this and it war stuff and then so she had you know, grown matured, 705 00:51:22.960 --> 00:51:27.440 and she was different. And I don't know that I had, you 706 00:51:27.480 --> 00:51:30.159 know, much, But anyway, it was an interesting the experience. Say, 707 00:51:30.199 --> 00:51:36.760 we're always fortunate we didn't have kids, because it's just trying to you 708 00:51:36.800 --> 00:51:39.159 know, I mean, the fact that she stuck with me all this time, 709 00:51:39.599 --> 00:51:44.159 put up with me, and the Air Force has what they call the 710 00:51:44.199 --> 00:51:50.400 Longevity Ribbon, and you know, after four years you get it the award 711 00:51:50.639 --> 00:51:53.480 and oak Leaf Custer every four years after that. Well, with all the 712 00:51:53.519 --> 00:51:59.800 griefs that she's experienced because of me or with me and everything, she thinks 713 00:51:59.800 --> 00:52:06.199 they ought to be a long griefity ribbon for a ward for she be qualified 714 00:52:06.199 --> 00:52:12.039 for. But no, it's they give you this. She's fantastic, And 715 00:52:13.280 --> 00:52:15.360 you know, it's like a lot of people don't realize that the north end 716 00:52:15.400 --> 00:52:20.960 of me is. They didn't They didn't even release a third of the names 717 00:52:21.159 --> 00:52:23.360 of the people they held. So there were a lot of families back here 718 00:52:23.880 --> 00:52:29.119 that some of them didn't know whether their loved one was dead or alive. 719 00:52:29.880 --> 00:52:34.239 And even they did know their loved one was alive, And of course my 720 00:52:34.320 --> 00:52:37.519 wife did because after some and a half months, my friend Cedar came home 721 00:52:37.559 --> 00:52:39.880 and said, yes, we've been taking it together, so she knew that. 722 00:52:40.599 --> 00:52:43.679 And then after I'd been there a little over two years, I was 723 00:52:43.679 --> 00:52:46.400 allowed to write a little five line letter to her, so she at least 724 00:52:46.480 --> 00:52:50.400 knew I was. But for some of them, they had no idea the 725 00:52:50.440 --> 00:52:53.119 whole time. Like Dave Gray, who's just in here a while back, 726 00:52:53.480 --> 00:53:00.559 his family didn't know until two weeks before he got released that he's said that. 727 00:53:01.239 --> 00:53:07.159 You know, they withheld names until the very end, so they didn't 728 00:53:07.199 --> 00:53:10.360 know a lot of whether loved ones that are alive, and if they did, 729 00:53:10.400 --> 00:53:15.039 they didn't know when or even if we were coming home because the war 730 00:53:15.159 --> 00:53:21.000 was open ended, and then assuming we did come home, what mental physical 731 00:53:21.039 --> 00:53:24.960 condition would be in So, you know, they had the Wiston families had 732 00:53:24.960 --> 00:53:30.559 their own survival situation and so as I tell people, I said, they 733 00:53:30.639 --> 00:53:35.079 had to and of course they didn't have the training for survival school we had, 734 00:53:35.960 --> 00:53:39.960 so they did fortunately later from the League of Families that started in nineteen 735 00:53:40.039 --> 00:53:45.039 seventy that helped. But for a lot of them, I mean it was 736 00:53:45.480 --> 00:53:50.960 it wasn't easy. So I say they did the best they could. Don't 737 00:53:51.000 --> 00:53:53.440 follow one of them no matter what decisions they made, you know, so 738 00:53:53.480 --> 00:53:57.280 it was tough for him. Just a couple of quick questions before we let 739 00:53:57.320 --> 00:54:00.960 you go. You are one of a small number of Americans who knows what 740 00:54:01.000 --> 00:54:07.039 it's like to lose freedom and get it back. Most of us will never 741 00:54:07.079 --> 00:54:12.400 know what it's like to lose it. So what do you have to say 742 00:54:12.480 --> 00:54:17.840 to anyone who might not appreciate the freedoms we have here? You better you 743 00:54:17.920 --> 00:54:23.000 better appreciate them because you don't ever lose them. We are very blessed in 744 00:54:23.039 --> 00:54:29.440 this country that even people that are very critical of our country are. You 745 00:54:29.480 --> 00:54:34.920 know, they should be recognized that they're blessed that they can even be as 746 00:54:34.960 --> 00:54:37.519 critical as they are and be allowed to do it. You know, because 747 00:54:37.519 --> 00:54:45.519 in some countries, if you speak up against the government or the ruling elite 748 00:54:45.599 --> 00:54:52.559 or whatever you know, there sometimes you suffer some severe consequences. So no 749 00:54:52.559 --> 00:54:57.159 matter what your beliefs are at uh, but you know it is each of 750 00:54:57.239 --> 00:55:00.480 us. I think he has the responsibility to go back and look and see 751 00:55:00.880 --> 00:55:06.599 what our country is and from the beginning, and yeah, it has its 752 00:55:06.599 --> 00:55:10.639 flaws, and look at our history and learn it words and all good points 753 00:55:10.639 --> 00:55:15.079 and bad points. But overall, I think, you know, we're very 754 00:55:15.159 --> 00:55:21.480 fortunate. It's like I tell people, our constitution, it's like I think 755 00:55:21.519 --> 00:55:24.199 it was. It was. It was the first of its kind. And 756 00:55:24.440 --> 00:55:29.079 there's something like about eighty countries in the world that have a constitution that's modeled 757 00:55:29.119 --> 00:55:37.400 after ours, and a lot of them it's more it's more just words than 758 00:55:37.599 --> 00:55:39.679 actually action. Some of them don't live up to them. But granted, 759 00:55:40.519 --> 00:55:46.280 the United States is you know, I think we are exceptional. Our country 760 00:55:46.360 --> 00:55:52.920 is exceptional, and our history, granted it has got some things that in 761 00:55:52.920 --> 00:55:57.079 no way should you know, it's just but you also, you know, 762 00:55:57.280 --> 00:56:01.079 need to recognize that those were the times and you can't look at the past 763 00:56:01.679 --> 00:56:07.960 using your present what's called presidentism, you can't look at it through the present 764 00:56:08.079 --> 00:56:13.000 lens because a lot of things that were done then the thinking was different in 765 00:56:13.079 --> 00:56:17.679 mentality. But there's nothing wrong with you know, criticizing it and saying it. 766 00:56:17.719 --> 00:56:22.159 But and you know, we need to have people who are willing to 767 00:56:22.239 --> 00:56:30.000 learn it and preserve this wonderful thing we have. It's the most noble experience, 768 00:56:30.360 --> 00:56:34.480 experiment in the human of the existence, and we can't lose it. 769 00:56:34.559 --> 00:56:37.599 I can't think of a better way to conclude, Colonel. It's been an 770 00:56:37.639 --> 00:56:39.880 honor to meet you. I appreciate the time you spent with us today and 771 00:56:40.280 --> 00:56:44.360 thank you for your incredible service and sacrifice. Well listen, thank you a 772 00:56:44.519 --> 00:56:51.719 pleasure. And you know, we used to sign off whenever we were tapping. 773 00:56:52.400 --> 00:56:53.400 And I don't know if I can do it here, but I'll do 774 00:56:53.440 --> 00:56:59.079 it real quick here. What we do had tap code is we were supposed 775 00:56:59.079 --> 00:57:01.480 to communicate. They came up with what they called the tap code, and 776 00:57:01.559 --> 00:57:07.000 basically is basically you take out the letter K and make a matrix of five 777 00:57:07.039 --> 00:57:12.480 by five, so A becomes one to one and B one two and everything 778 00:57:12.559 --> 00:57:15.679 like that. And so whenever we're communicating, unless you had to sign off 779 00:57:15.840 --> 00:57:20.199 somebody danger like guard coming, you dumped the wall real hard. But if 780 00:57:20.239 --> 00:57:32.800 you were signing off, what you do is go and that was gbu gba, 781 00:57:34.280 --> 00:57:38.960 God bless you, God bless America. And that's what I tell people. 782 00:57:39.519 --> 00:57:43.400 God bless you. God blessed America. God bless you. Sir. 783 00:57:43.719 --> 00:57:47.920 Retired US Air Force Colonel Howard Hill, Vietnam veteran, recipient of two Silver 784 00:57:49.000 --> 00:57:53.440 Stars and spent more than five years in captivity in Vietnam after being shot down 785 00:57:53.480 --> 00:58:00.880 in December of nineteen sixty seven. I'm Greg Corumbus. This is Veteran's Chronicles. 786 00:58:08.360 --> 00:58:12.800 Hi, this is Greg Corumbus, and thanks for listening to Veterans Chronicles, 787 00:58:12.880 --> 00:58:16.000 a presentation of the American Veterans Center. For more information, please visit 788 00:58:16.039 --> 00:58:22.639 American Veteranscenter dot org. You can also follow the American Veterans Center on Facebook 789 00:58:22.880 --> 00:58:27.840 and on Twitter. We're at AVC update. Subscribe to the American Veterans Center 790 00:58:27.880 --> 00:58:31.119 YouTube channel for full oral histories and special features, and of course, please 791 00:58:31.159 --> 00:58:37.039 subscribe to the Veterans Chronicles podcast wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks again for 792 00:58:37.119 --> 00:58:39.239 listening, and please join us next time for Veterans Chronicles