WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.120 --> 00:00:04.480 Welcome to Back in Your Leadership. I'm Chris Lorenzo and Lorenzo. In this 2 00:00:04.519 --> 00:00:08.400 episode, I want to talk about something that I discussed with Jim Harder in 3 00:00:08.560 --> 00:00:13.160 our guest interview that we've published last week on Wednesday. If you haven't listened 4 00:00:13.199 --> 00:00:15.599 to that yet, please go back and do so. He's the chief data 5 00:00:15.640 --> 00:00:20.640 scientist at Gallop and the book he wrote recently is really kind of puts together 6 00:00:20.679 --> 00:00:24.920 a lot of the discussions that we've had over the last two years on kind 7 00:00:24.920 --> 00:00:28.640 of the decisions leaders make when it comes to the work from home versus in 8 00:00:28.719 --> 00:00:33.679 office versus hybrid stuff. There's a lot of implications on all three and because 9 00:00:33.840 --> 00:00:37.399 Gallup is such a data driven organization, there's not a lot of, you 10 00:00:37.439 --> 00:00:40.320 know, emotional opinion. It's just literally, this is what the data says. 11 00:00:40.439 --> 00:00:43.920 Kind of you make your own decisions because of it. Really great interview, 12 00:00:43.920 --> 00:00:45.679 Please go back and listen to it. But one of the things that 13 00:00:45.679 --> 00:00:51.240 you talked about in terms of the effectiveness of leaders in this process, regardless 14 00:00:51.560 --> 00:00:55.520 of what your organization decides to go with or has the policies of, is 15 00:00:55.520 --> 00:00:59.600 this idea of the importance of coaching when it comes to your people like, 16 00:00:59.600 --> 00:01:03.159 how do you coach your people? And the reason why this kind of jumped 17 00:01:03.159 --> 00:01:06.799 out at me is something we should talk about is that I've had conversations with 18 00:01:06.840 --> 00:01:11.000 people where I've talked about the importance of being more of a coach as a 19 00:01:11.079 --> 00:01:12.439 leader, if you lead people, you want to be more of a coach 20 00:01:12.480 --> 00:01:18.560 to them, And the response is from a lot of people is really deer 21 00:01:18.560 --> 00:01:22.640 in headlights, almost to the point where they almost believed, to that point 22 00:01:22.640 --> 00:01:26.560 in time, that the words leader and coach were almost synonymous, like you 23 00:01:26.680 --> 00:01:30.799 just changed the word to something, but it's the same thing, and I'm 24 00:01:30.840 --> 00:01:34.799 already doing that, or I believe I'm already doing that. And what that 25 00:01:34.879 --> 00:01:37.760 is leading me to believe is that a lot of people out there don't actually 26 00:01:37.920 --> 00:01:42.319 know what the differences are or what it means to level up your leadership into 27 00:01:42.359 --> 00:01:45.760 the area of where you could actually be considered a coach, or what it 28 00:01:45.799 --> 00:01:49.000 means to coach people ver suggest lead them. And so I think this is 29 00:01:49.040 --> 00:01:52.120 really important. I think a lot of our listeners might be struggling with this 30 00:01:52.159 --> 00:01:53.799 if they lead people, and it's something I think we should we should get 31 00:01:53.799 --> 00:01:57.079 into a little bit. Yeah, I think it's a great conversation because I 32 00:01:57.079 --> 00:02:02.519 think that there is obviously a lot of elements uh that like that kind of 33 00:02:02.560 --> 00:02:07.920 like crossover when it comes to leadership and coaching and a lot of things that 34 00:02:07.000 --> 00:02:12.199 are you know, people, it's easy to say it's pretty much the same, 35 00:02:12.199 --> 00:02:14.639 Like I can see where a lot of people will say that, but 36 00:02:14.719 --> 00:02:19.479 I think that as we walk, as we talk through it and kind of 37 00:02:19.680 --> 00:02:23.360 define it. And again we talk a lot of the podcast about like you 38 00:02:23.439 --> 00:02:25.800 have to have common language and you have to have agreed upon definitions, yes, 39 00:02:27.479 --> 00:02:30.960 because I think that's where we tend to have some of this, like 40 00:02:30.520 --> 00:02:32.879 you know, where people have a different way of looking at it, but 41 00:02:32.879 --> 00:02:36.719 we never talk about what is the way that we want to look at or 42 00:02:36.759 --> 00:02:38.599 how do we want to define it? Because you know, coach at its 43 00:02:38.599 --> 00:02:44.639 simplest definition is just someone whose job is to teach people to improve it something, 44 00:02:44.719 --> 00:02:46.599 whether it's sports, skill, whatever the case is. But like that's 45 00:02:46.639 --> 00:02:51.159 what that's what the coach job is. So to be to be a leader 46 00:02:51.439 --> 00:02:55.080 who's coaching people. There's a lot in there that comes with performance management, 47 00:02:55.080 --> 00:02:59.159 follow up, accountability, teaching, training, skill building, like whatever you 48 00:02:59.199 --> 00:03:00.800 want to call it. But I think think that it's important that we start 49 00:03:00.840 --> 00:03:05.240 in a place of like, what what do we mean when we say it's 50 00:03:05.960 --> 00:03:10.759 and how is it different or how was it a skill within leadership that just 51 00:03:10.840 --> 00:03:14.599 because you are a leader, you are not good at it by default. 52 00:03:14.639 --> 00:03:17.240 I think that's the real conversation that we have to have, is that true, 53 00:03:17.439 --> 00:03:23.080 really good coaching in a leadership context is a very specialized skill for it 54 00:03:23.120 --> 00:03:27.919 to be long term effective and for people to want to enjoy the process of 55 00:03:28.000 --> 00:03:30.919 learning and growing as they are being coached, right right. I think you 56 00:03:30.919 --> 00:03:35.240 know you mentioned sports, and I think you know I'm not a huge fan 57 00:03:35.280 --> 00:03:39.759 of sports analogies, but the very essence of the word coach when it's used 58 00:03:39.800 --> 00:03:44.840 in most places is in reference to sports. If you think about whether it's 59 00:03:44.879 --> 00:03:49.039 at the the kid level or the professional level, it's still called a coach. 60 00:03:49.080 --> 00:03:51.520 There's still the coach of the team, the head coach, the assistant 61 00:03:51.560 --> 00:03:55.120 coach, you know. And and yet not all leaders, necessarily, I 62 00:03:55.479 --> 00:04:00.280 think, are good coaches. I think there are leaders out there who have 63 00:04:00.960 --> 00:04:05.199 effectively gotten people to do better at things, but they did not do it 64 00:04:05.240 --> 00:04:09.759 through effective coaching or through being a coach. They did it through other methods. 65 00:04:10.159 --> 00:04:13.639 And I think one of the reasons this is important to know is that 66 00:04:14.159 --> 00:04:21.399 as the expectations of leaders change, because the expectations of employees of what they 67 00:04:21.439 --> 00:04:28.000 want from their leaders are changing, the skills of coaching become more important to 68 00:04:28.079 --> 00:04:30.759 leaders than they were in the past. And so if I think about some 69 00:04:30.800 --> 00:04:32.720 of the most you know, kind of effective coaches in sports, you know, 70 00:04:32.720 --> 00:04:35.439 people like Vince Lombardi, or you know, you get like Phil Jackson 71 00:04:35.480 --> 00:04:38.959 who has like six rings, and you know, I'm not saying that that 72 00:04:39.000 --> 00:04:43.439 at one point they couldn't play, but when they did the majority of their 73 00:04:43.480 --> 00:04:47.800 coaching, it could be argued that the people they were coaching were a lot 74 00:04:47.839 --> 00:04:51.360 better at executing that thing than they are. Right, there's a reason why 75 00:04:51.399 --> 00:04:55.160 they're on the sidelines and not on the field of the court or whatever that 76 00:04:55.279 --> 00:05:01.360 is. And there's something about a person who is a leader, who actually 77 00:05:01.560 --> 00:05:06.120 can effectively do the job of the people they are leading, that I think, 78 00:05:06.160 --> 00:05:12.759 in some cases can set them up for failure with regard to how good 79 00:05:12.800 --> 00:05:15.319 they have to be at coaching, because the fact that they, in their 80 00:05:15.360 --> 00:05:18.720 own mind think I can do this job as good or better than the people 81 00:05:18.759 --> 00:05:24.920 I am leading it means that I don't necessarily have to coach them effectively. 82 00:05:25.199 --> 00:05:27.439 I can just tell them this is how I would do it. Now do 83 00:05:27.480 --> 00:05:30.199 it this way. And if you look at coaches that are very effective in 84 00:05:30.240 --> 00:05:32.360 sports, because a lot of them can't necessarily just go out and do it. 85 00:05:33.000 --> 00:05:38.560 They have to get that skill and that ability and that improvement out of 86 00:05:38.600 --> 00:05:41.800 people in a way that doesn't say, hey, watch me do it, 87 00:05:41.839 --> 00:05:44.480 and then just do what I'm doing. There's a difference there, and it 88 00:05:44.560 --> 00:05:47.800 might seem subtle, but I think it drives the essence of what it means 89 00:05:47.839 --> 00:05:51.240 to be a coach versus what it means to just lead by doing. Yeah, 90 00:05:51.560 --> 00:05:55.839 I'm glad you brought it up that way, because recently, I would 91 00:05:55.839 --> 00:05:59.160 probably say over to last I don't know, maybe maybe six months or so, 92 00:05:59.439 --> 00:06:03.319 I've had a odd of conversations around the idea of coaching and helping for 93 00:06:03.360 --> 00:06:08.079 people to improve, building skill, And one of the things that I do 94 00:06:08.160 --> 00:06:11.920 in that conversation is I say, hey, what is you know, what's 95 00:06:11.959 --> 00:06:15.519 your favorite you know sport player in the world. You know, and pretty 96 00:06:15.560 --> 00:06:16.879 much everybody, even if you don't necessarily have a favorite, you know of 97 00:06:16.920 --> 00:06:20.959 somebody somebody will say Michael Jordan, Lebron Jay and somebody say Messy or you 98 00:06:21.000 --> 00:06:25.040 know, like they'll say Joe Montana or Tom Brady or whatever. And I'll 99 00:06:25.040 --> 00:06:28.519 say, okay, so now number one, do you know who their coach 100 00:06:28.600 --> 00:06:30.600 is? Right? And for the sports people, they know who the coach 101 00:06:30.639 --> 00:06:34.959 is. And I'm like, was that coach when that player was out like 102 00:06:35.120 --> 00:06:41.439 practicing and going to the gym and working on their skill set? Was the 103 00:06:41.480 --> 00:06:44.480 coach with them all of the time? And they're like, well no, 104 00:06:44.839 --> 00:06:46.959 And I'm like, right, why is that? And they're like, well, 105 00:06:46.959 --> 00:06:51.480 because that person, that athlete, like they they personally wanted to get 106 00:06:51.519 --> 00:06:57.199 better. They had an intrinsic motivating kind of behavior to want to practice and 107 00:06:57.240 --> 00:06:59.800 get better, like they were obsessed with becoming the best they could be. 108 00:07:00.240 --> 00:07:01.600 And I said yes, And I was like, so, let me let 109 00:07:01.639 --> 00:07:04.199 me share with you kind of how I see that. Like some of the 110 00:07:04.240 --> 00:07:10.279 greatest coaches in the world are really great because they understand how to fine tune 111 00:07:10.800 --> 00:07:15.959 and help that athlete or that player get better by watching, by observing, 112 00:07:16.120 --> 00:07:21.839 by by asking them questions, by helping them to think about their approach or 113 00:07:21.879 --> 00:07:26.319 the way that they're doing things. A little bit differently. Those are they're 114 00:07:26.360 --> 00:07:29.560 really good at fine tuning. And I'm like, because there's this assumption that 115 00:07:29.639 --> 00:07:31.759 to be a great coach means you have to have great players on the field 116 00:07:31.839 --> 00:07:35.720 or on the court or anywhere. They have to have that intrinsic motivation to 117 00:07:35.759 --> 00:07:40.759 want to do better for themselves. So, in my mind, great coaches 118 00:07:40.959 --> 00:07:44.879 understand that there's a time that you help somebody refine the skill, and then 119 00:07:44.879 --> 00:07:46.639 there's the time when you have the players that just don't want to go to 120 00:07:46.680 --> 00:07:50.199 practice. They're not always in it, they're not doing the things that they 121 00:07:50.199 --> 00:07:54.079 should be doing over and over again to get better at the thing. And 122 00:07:54.120 --> 00:07:59.439 in my mind, that's not really coaching. That's like follow up and validation, 123 00:08:00.040 --> 00:08:03.000 elements of kind of like accountability of training, like like you're spending time 124 00:08:03.000 --> 00:08:09.639 with somebody to get them to the expectation of something versus refining their skill set 125 00:08:09.680 --> 00:08:15.120 as a coach should do. And in certain industries you're gonna have that mixed 126 00:08:15.120 --> 00:08:18.360 bag. You're gonna have one conversation you'll have with somebody it's refining the skill. 127 00:08:18.600 --> 00:08:22.279 The next conversation is just helping somebody to just do the basics of what 128 00:08:22.360 --> 00:08:24.600 the thing is, and I'm like, but in our we have to shift 129 00:08:24.680 --> 00:08:31.279 that mentality, and it's tough if you blend those two together. So I've 130 00:08:31.279 --> 00:08:33.080 been having a lot of that conversation. So I appreciate you kind of bringing 131 00:08:33.159 --> 00:08:37.799 up like the sports analogy coach like and where it came from and kind of 132 00:08:37.799 --> 00:08:39.879 who those people are, because that's what I've been trying to help leaders think 133 00:08:39.879 --> 00:08:45.919 about this differently, to say, like, we're not necessarily coaching somebody if 134 00:08:45.960 --> 00:08:50.000 they're struggling with the basic expectations of the work. You're actually training them. 135 00:08:50.440 --> 00:08:52.559 You're validating the behaviors, You're making sure that they're doing what they're supposed to 136 00:08:52.559 --> 00:08:56.879 be doing. And then once they show you that they're down that path, 137 00:08:56.919 --> 00:09:00.919 which they show you that they're looking to improve themselves and get better and they're 138 00:09:00.919 --> 00:09:03.559 investing in their skill set, then you can walk in as a coach and 139 00:09:03.600 --> 00:09:09.440 really then spend time differently to help them refine versus be over their shoulder, 140 00:09:09.519 --> 00:09:11.519 like you know, Phil Jackson's not over Michael Jordan's shoulder the whole time being 141 00:09:11.519 --> 00:09:13.960 like, all right, a little bit to the left, next time to 142 00:09:15.039 --> 00:09:16.320 the right, and no, no, like he's not you bend your elbow 143 00:09:16.360 --> 00:09:20.279 a little bit more. He's not doing that right. And so like, 144 00:09:20.320 --> 00:09:24.840 those are things that I think I think are important when we look to define 145 00:09:24.879 --> 00:09:26.440 what it means, When when you look to define what it means for you 146 00:09:26.480 --> 00:09:31.799 and for your team, uh that you are coaching and training, figuring out 147 00:09:31.799 --> 00:09:33.879 what that definition really is, I think will be really helpful. You know, 148 00:09:35.080 --> 00:09:37.440 I think that's perfect because they're there. And this is where leaders, 149 00:09:37.480 --> 00:09:41.360 I think have a hard time. You know, when I hear somebody in 150 00:09:41.440 --> 00:09:45.039 a meeting and they're like, you know, this person has a difficult time 151 00:09:45.039 --> 00:09:48.080 getting to work on time. And you know when they when they talk to 152 00:09:48.120 --> 00:09:50.360 clients or customers, it just seems like they're phoning it in or they're just 153 00:09:50.360 --> 00:09:54.279 like kind of going through the motions. There's no there's no passion behind it. 154 00:09:54.399 --> 00:09:56.200 Okay, well, you know, let's let's see we can do to 155 00:09:56.240 --> 00:09:58.279 coach them. It's like, no, you clearly don't know what coaching is 156 00:09:58.519 --> 00:10:03.279 because that person doesn't need coaching. That person needs to have basic expectations set 157 00:10:03.720 --> 00:10:09.159 and then when they show that they are they are bringing something to the table 158 00:10:09.519 --> 00:10:13.279 that is deserving of being coached, then you coach them. You know that 159 00:10:13.279 --> 00:10:16.440 that's how you get that kind of you know, up to that next level 160 00:10:16.440 --> 00:10:18.519 of performance. The other thing that I think is important to remember too is 161 00:10:18.559 --> 00:10:22.240 that you know, and this is the reason why why talking about politics online 162 00:10:22.240 --> 00:10:24.639 doesn't ever work, is that no one. No one ever changes their mind 163 00:10:24.639 --> 00:10:30.200 by being told that they believe something that's wrong. You know. They change 164 00:10:30.200 --> 00:10:35.399 their mind by coming to their on their own. And what what coaches do 165 00:10:35.440 --> 00:10:41.519 effectively is they ask questions in order to make people kind of get there on 166 00:10:41.600 --> 00:10:46.399 their own. Because the people who are already bringing that level of heart to 167 00:10:46.440 --> 00:10:50.759 whatever it is they're doing, the people who want to succeed, they are 168 00:10:50.879 --> 00:10:56.159 open to that change, but they aren't necessarily open to being told that what 169 00:10:56.240 --> 00:10:58.519 they're doing is wrong. They're just open. They have an open mind in 170 00:10:58.559 --> 00:11:03.600 general. And if they can get there on their own by just hearing the 171 00:11:03.720 --> 00:11:07.200 right questions and answering those questions to themselves, that is a much more effective 172 00:11:07.200 --> 00:11:11.240 way of getting that change because it will be lasting change, not just a 173 00:11:11.279 --> 00:11:13.559 person who's like, oh, okay, you'll have to I have to change 174 00:11:13.559 --> 00:11:16.679 what I'm doing because this person's watching. That just means you get the change 175 00:11:16.720 --> 00:11:18.279 when you're watching, and then when you go away, the change isn't there. 176 00:11:18.440 --> 00:11:22.200 You can watch the athlete at the gym, and they're gonna work hard 177 00:11:22.200 --> 00:11:24.440 when you're watching them at the gym, but then you go away and then 178 00:11:24.440 --> 00:11:26.559 they just phone it in. The way to make sure that they're working hard 179 00:11:26.600 --> 00:11:31.159 at the gym when you're not watching over them is to make them, in 180 00:11:31.200 --> 00:11:33.600 their own mind, get to a place where they not just understand the importance 181 00:11:33.639 --> 00:11:39.840 of working out hard, but that they see the potential of doors opening for 182 00:11:39.919 --> 00:11:43.279 them. And then they become bought into the process, not because of what 183 00:11:43.320 --> 00:11:46.440 it did for you or for the organization, but for what it did for 184 00:11:46.480 --> 00:11:52.200 them. And when coaches can ask those types of questions, that's what really 185 00:11:52.279 --> 00:11:58.360 unlocks that in people. But that's like the Maslowian hierarchies self actualization part I. 186 00:11:58.639 --> 00:12:01.039 If you're struggling for basic needs, you're not worried about that part of 187 00:12:01.039 --> 00:12:05.600 it, Yet you still have to have that first part of getting the person 188 00:12:05.639 --> 00:12:09.360 bought in and making sure that they're meeting basic expectations before you can roll that 189 00:12:09.360 --> 00:12:11.879 out. So, yes, both things are important as a leader, but 190 00:12:11.919 --> 00:12:15.799 they are not both coaching. No. I think that that's that's a great 191 00:12:15.840 --> 00:12:20.039 point. I think it's a coach coaching and coaches like these are now these 192 00:12:20.159 --> 00:12:24.639 terms that kind of again are just really muddy, like it's it's it's like 193 00:12:24.000 --> 00:12:28.080 sometimes we use the word coach, I think as a means of not saying 194 00:12:28.080 --> 00:12:31.879 performance management when when we're just managing performance. But because of the negative the 195 00:12:31.879 --> 00:12:33.600 negative connotation with the performance management, it's the sameing we talked about it with 196 00:12:33.639 --> 00:12:37.519 accountability. Yeah, we change the word because we don't like the word performance 197 00:12:37.519 --> 00:12:39.080 management, so we're gonna call it something different, right, But it is 198 00:12:39.120 --> 00:12:43.639 something different when done appropriately, right. And I think that's that's the conversation 199 00:12:43.720 --> 00:12:50.720 that has to be had with leaders and with people to understand that concepts. 200 00:12:50.879 --> 00:12:56.399 And you know that that's something that we I think leaders have to role model 201 00:12:56.519 --> 00:12:58.600 what that is. And you sometimes have to sit down with your team and 202 00:12:58.639 --> 00:13:03.200 say, hey, let's talk about what this is. What what is performance 203 00:13:03.240 --> 00:13:05.120 management? When you hear the word, what does that mean to you? 204 00:13:05.120 --> 00:13:07.840 Can we all agree that most of us think that it's negative, has a 205 00:13:07.879 --> 00:13:11.360 negative connotation. Now, can we talk about what it means to actually manage 206 00:13:11.440 --> 00:13:16.320 performance and expectations of the job and things like that. And you kind of 207 00:13:16.360 --> 00:13:20.360 brought up like the attendance thing type of deal like like, I'm not coaching 208 00:13:20.480 --> 00:13:24.279 attendance, like either you come to work or you don't. And and if 209 00:13:24.360 --> 00:13:28.279 and if you if you choose not to come to work when you can come 210 00:13:28.320 --> 00:13:31.480 to work, then that's a different conversation to have than saying, like, 211 00:13:31.679 --> 00:13:35.639 how can I help Chris get up earlier in the morning? Chris? Can 212 00:13:35.679 --> 00:13:37.519 I can I offer you some type of a better alarm clock system? Is 213 00:13:37.519 --> 00:13:41.000 there something that I can do for you? Like, that's not We're not 214 00:13:41.120 --> 00:13:45.639 coaching the refinement of Chris's ability to get to work when he's supposed to be 215 00:13:45.679 --> 00:13:48.759 there. No, We're simply saying you're not a work like first and foremost, 216 00:13:48.799 --> 00:13:52.200 like, is everything okay? Right? Is there anything that you need 217 00:13:52.279 --> 00:13:56.080 something we should be aware of that that may be causing this? And if 218 00:13:56.080 --> 00:14:00.840 the answer is no, I just need to leave early or no, I 219 00:14:00.960 --> 00:14:05.120 just you know, sometimes I you know, a lollygag and I don't get 220 00:14:05.279 --> 00:14:07.600 like okay, and then let's have that conversation. That's not coaching, right, 221 00:14:07.799 --> 00:14:11.080 But I think that we have to have that conversation with with people with 222 00:14:11.159 --> 00:14:15.000 teams. We have to say what is by our own definitions, what is 223 00:14:15.039 --> 00:14:18.519 performance? Management. What is coaching and how as your leader, how do 224 00:14:18.559 --> 00:14:22.000 I approach these two things? And what are examples of these two things? 225 00:14:22.000 --> 00:14:24.720 And like, you know, here's my goal as a leader. I want 226 00:14:24.799 --> 00:14:26.919 everybody to be over in this coaching space, right, I want to spend 227 00:14:26.960 --> 00:14:31.440 most all of my time talking to all of you about helping you get better 228 00:14:31.559 --> 00:14:35.600 things that you want to focus on, and not spend any time over here 229 00:14:35.639 --> 00:14:37.799 in performance management where I feel that I'm having to follow up with the basic 230 00:14:37.799 --> 00:14:41.840 expectations of the job. Like, that's my goal too, right, So, 231 00:14:41.919 --> 00:14:43.799 like, I think those conversations are so critical though, yeah, you're 232 00:14:43.799 --> 00:14:48.440 you're right. I think one of the reasons why I think many leaders have 233 00:14:48.440 --> 00:14:54.600 a hard time with this is that they're not used to leading in a way 234 00:14:54.639 --> 00:14:58.840 that doesn't allow them to use their their title, or their authority or their 235 00:15:00.039 --> 00:15:05.279 position as part of the reason you should follow. Right. So if I 236 00:15:05.320 --> 00:15:07.879 don't mean that in a negative way, just a factual way, Like if 237 00:15:07.879 --> 00:15:13.000 you if you have a title and you have people report to you, there 238 00:15:13.080 --> 00:15:16.360 is a certain element of that people people are going to do what you say 239 00:15:16.759 --> 00:15:20.720 because you've said it and you're the boss. That just is what it is. 240 00:15:22.159 --> 00:15:26.879 And because that's a very easy transactional thing to do. A lot of 241 00:15:28.000 --> 00:15:31.559 leaders fall back on it, and the reality of it is that that can 242 00:15:31.600 --> 00:15:37.039 work for certain things. But when it comes to those refinements that we're talking 243 00:15:37.039 --> 00:15:41.480 about, when it comes to taking a team from not poor performance but just 244 00:15:41.600 --> 00:15:45.960 kind of like, yeah, they're getting done, it's fine to really unlocking 245 00:15:46.080 --> 00:15:50.639 something that allows it to be a symbiosis of high performance amongst the people on 246 00:15:50.679 --> 00:15:54.080 a team. To get from that kind of mediocre level to that high level 247 00:15:54.559 --> 00:16:00.480 is going to take more than just relying on your authority as boss to be 248 00:16:00.519 --> 00:16:03.480 able to get it done. And and because leaders are so used to being 249 00:16:03.480 --> 00:16:07.200 able to do that, and I say lead with with their authority, I 250 00:16:07.240 --> 00:16:10.360 don't mean by yelling and screaming. I just mean with authority. That's not 251 00:16:10.440 --> 00:16:14.840 coaching, and it's okay to do that, but you're not going to get 252 00:16:14.840 --> 00:16:19.120 people to that next level without that other layer of coaching. And if you're 253 00:16:19.279 --> 00:16:23.559 so used to doing it that one way, it comes becomes very hard to 254 00:16:23.600 --> 00:16:29.919 flex the muscle of coaching because it actually looks like you're taking a step backward 255 00:16:30.240 --> 00:16:33.240 from your position or a step backward from your the authority that you have because 256 00:16:33.279 --> 00:16:37.360 it is you are taking a step back from it. You're the coach, 257 00:16:37.440 --> 00:16:41.879 is the person that wants you to succeed, not that thinks that they're the 258 00:16:41.919 --> 00:16:45.320 only one who can make you succeed, or that without them you wouldn't succeed. 259 00:16:45.720 --> 00:16:48.080 And that that's a key mindset shift right there. If you think that 260 00:16:48.120 --> 00:16:52.360 you're needed in order to make a person succeed, then you've already failed as 261 00:16:52.399 --> 00:16:56.720 a coach. Your goal as a coach is to just plant the seeds of 262 00:16:56.759 --> 00:17:00.679 things and if the right person is listening, they will grow. If the 263 00:17:00.679 --> 00:17:03.720 wrong person is listening, they won't. And then you step back from coaching, 264 00:17:03.799 --> 00:17:07.440 and that's when you go into performance management. Absolutely, and with that 265 00:17:07.480 --> 00:17:10.599 it brings us to this episodes one minute hack. But first a few words 266 00:17:10.599 --> 00:17:14.160 from our sponsors. All Right, this episode's one minute hack is about the 267 00:17:14.160 --> 00:17:18.319 difference between coaching and performance management. Performance management is about basic job expectations. 268 00:17:18.559 --> 00:17:23.200 It's about making sure that the person actually still has a job and is allowed 269 00:17:23.240 --> 00:17:26.279 to be at that job, and that you want them to still be at 270 00:17:26.279 --> 00:17:30.359 that job. Coaching is about unlocking potential. It's about taking people who already 271 00:17:30.359 --> 00:17:33.759 have that buy in, who are already doing the things that are needed in 272 00:17:33.839 --> 00:17:37.359 order to remain employed, and you're trying to maximize what their potentials are for 273 00:17:37.400 --> 00:17:41.200 themselves. And so when you're doing one, don't do the other. When 274 00:17:41.200 --> 00:17:45.960 your performance managing, don't ask questions about helping to bring out the best in 275 00:17:45.039 --> 00:17:48.960 people. This is about making sure people are very clear on what those expectations 276 00:17:48.960 --> 00:17:52.200 are. They don't need to get there on their own. You're going to 277 00:17:52.240 --> 00:17:55.440 help them get there. When you're coaching somebody, it's about helping them get 278 00:17:55.480 --> 00:17:59.200 there by asking the questions that they need in order to unlock those doors for 279 00:17:59.240 --> 00:18:03.480 themselves. And so keep the separation between the two. Know that certain people 280 00:18:03.480 --> 00:18:06.880 on your team will need both of those things depending on the issue, and 281 00:18:06.960 --> 00:18:11.359 certain people on your team will only need the coaching versus needing the performance management. 282 00:18:11.599 --> 00:18:15.200 As a leader, you want to move your time to as much about 283 00:18:15.240 --> 00:18:19.119 coaching as possible and as little about performance management as possible. Performance management is 284 00:18:21.079 --> 00:18:23.480 crossing your teas and dotting your eyes, making sure that everything is done right 285 00:18:23.519 --> 00:18:26.759 from a paperwork standpoint, so that you can spend the majority of your time 286 00:18:27.119 --> 00:18:30.799 actually bringing out the best in people. The more you can do that, 287 00:18:30.160 --> 00:18:33.960 the less you'll see the kind of blurring of the lines between those two things, 288 00:18:34.160 --> 00:18:37.680 and the more you'll be able to make sure that you're clear on where 289 00:18:37.680 --> 00:18:38.640 you're spending your time with your people. Yeah, I think it's a great 290 00:18:38.640 --> 00:18:41.440 woman at hack and I want to be clear about two things. The first 291 00:18:41.440 --> 00:18:47.200 thing is that you've got to spend the time in performance management if you want 292 00:18:47.200 --> 00:18:51.440 to have a successful coaching culture within your team, Because if you're not able 293 00:18:51.440 --> 00:18:53.880 to hold people accountable for the basic minimum expectations, if you're not able to 294 00:18:53.880 --> 00:18:57.960 have the conversations needed to make sure people clearly understand what they're responsible for, 295 00:19:00.039 --> 00:19:03.680 then the coaching that you do with those that are doing the work and those 296 00:19:03.720 --> 00:19:07.119 that are looking to refine skills, they're just going to be frustrated because other 297 00:19:07.119 --> 00:19:11.599 people are not doing as much work or they're not meeting the expectations and they're 298 00:19:11.640 --> 00:19:14.880 still here. And I think the second thing is, and I appreciate you 299 00:19:14.960 --> 00:19:18.079 kind of walking through this is like finding the time that you need to spend 300 00:19:18.079 --> 00:19:22.759 to really define these terms for yourself and then for your team. And I 301 00:19:22.759 --> 00:19:26.519 think it's it's really good when teams hear from leaders and they say things like 302 00:19:27.000 --> 00:19:30.039 I want to spend my time in this space. I would like to spend 303 00:19:30.160 --> 00:19:33.440 my time with all of you in this space of coaching where we are really 304 00:19:33.480 --> 00:19:37.480 spending our time talking about your goals, your skills, the things that you 305 00:19:37.519 --> 00:19:40.799 want to work on, the work that you want to get done, and 306 00:19:40.839 --> 00:19:42.359 how does that help you, you know, with your career, with your 307 00:19:42.400 --> 00:19:45.599 progression, with whatever that might be. I would prefer to spend all of 308 00:19:45.599 --> 00:19:49.240 my time in that space. But please understand that there's going to be performance 309 00:19:49.279 --> 00:19:53.680 Management's going to happen when we have those and that are not meeting expectations, 310 00:19:53.680 --> 00:19:57.839 and so like you're kind of helping your team and your people to also understand 311 00:19:59.400 --> 00:20:03.880 that, Like you're having both the conversations, and that's important when you're looking 312 00:20:03.920 --> 00:20:07.559 to really build that culture where where people know that there is both a good 313 00:20:07.559 --> 00:20:12.759 amount of recognition and developing happening along with the accountability needed to raise the floor 314 00:20:14.240 --> 00:20:17.279 and have your team be able to show up and do their best body of 315 00:20:17.279 --> 00:20:21.079 work without feeling like others are not putting forth their best effort. Yeah, 316 00:20:21.079 --> 00:20:25.440 that's so true. I think it brings a kind of an important thing to 317 00:20:25.480 --> 00:20:27.720 the surface here, which is that you don't get to be a coach just 318 00:20:27.839 --> 00:20:32.440 because you are going through these actions and doing them the right way. You 319 00:20:32.480 --> 00:20:34.000 have to earn the right to be a coach. Your people have to say, 320 00:20:34.559 --> 00:20:38.759 I'm willing to follow this person as a coach, I'm willing to listen 321 00:20:38.799 --> 00:20:42.079 to what this person has to say, and they won't do that unless you 322 00:20:42.119 --> 00:20:45.519 have the basics in place. And one of those things is they have to 323 00:20:45.559 --> 00:20:48.319 be able to rely on you as a leader. They have to be able 324 00:20:48.319 --> 00:20:51.720 to know that you are consistent and that you're holding people accountable. And if 325 00:20:51.720 --> 00:20:53.920 you can earn that right to coach them, they will be much more likely 326 00:20:53.960 --> 00:20:57.200 to listen to the questions you're asking and the coach and you're doing and have 327 00:20:57.279 --> 00:21:00.480 those doors open. If they don't think that you are you know that you 328 00:21:00.519 --> 00:21:04.440 have their best interests at heart, they don't view as a coach to begin 329 00:21:04.480 --> 00:21:07.079 with, and you might as well not even start down that path until you 330 00:21:07.119 --> 00:21:11.279 get those things, those basic things right. Absolutely, and with that it 331 00:21:11.279 --> 00:21:14.039 brings us to the end of this episode. This is hacking your leadership. 332 00:21:14.039 --> 00:21:15.519 I'm Lorenzo and I'm Chris, and we'll talk to you all next time.