1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:07,280 You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas. 2 00:00:07,799 --> 00:00:12,080 I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now 3 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:16,039 trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other 4 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:20,280 victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway 5 00:00:20,359 --> 00:00:24,760 murders and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 6 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:29,120 Kristin Dilly. My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a researcher, 7 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:32,840 a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social media 8 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:37,880 manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner in 9 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:44,799 crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind Ever Murderer. I'm Kristin Dilly and 10 00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:49,880 I'm Bill Thomas, and we're joined today by doctor Mike Amott of the Bradford 11 00:00:50,079 --> 00:00:55,719 University, Florida Gulf Coast University Serial Killer Research Database here to talk to us 12 00:00:55,880 --> 00:00:59,880 all about serial killers. Mike, thank you so much for joining us. 13 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:03,439 So happy to be here, christ and you make it sound so upbeat. 14 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:07,239 I do. That's just a function of me being excited to be here and 15 00:01:07,719 --> 00:01:12,439 really geeking out over this amazing data analysis that I have at my fingertips as 16 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:15,480 a result of this serial killer study. So, yeah, I'm a little 17 00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:19,680 amped about serial killers. Maybe I need to tone it down just a bit. 18 00:01:19,719 --> 00:01:23,200 I'll try to dial it back. Let's let you jump right into it, 19 00:01:23,239 --> 00:01:27,200 since you're so incredibly enthusiastic, Mike, go ahead and start by talking 20 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:32,959 to us about how this database originated. I know you said that it started 21 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:36,680 as a classroom project. Tell us more as an educator. I love that. 22 00:01:36,799 --> 00:01:40,200 I'm fascinated, So tell us all about the database and how it got 23 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:42,680 started. Sure, so, there was no intention of creating the database when 24 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:48,120 it when it first started, but I was teaching a course in forensic psychology 25 00:01:48,159 --> 00:01:52,200 at Radford University, and the students were really interested, even back then, 26 00:01:52,239 --> 00:01:56,000 this is the early nineties, even in serial murder. But what I found 27 00:01:56,079 --> 00:02:00,280 was that there really weren't very many good sources of information. There were a 28 00:02:00,280 --> 00:02:05,040 lot of true crime books, but there really weren't any good academic sources. 29 00:02:04,439 --> 00:02:07,759 There was a profile that the FBI had put out about serial killers. You 30 00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:12,280 had a lot of people speculating, but there really wasn't good data. So 31 00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:15,680 what I did was. I had my students do a serial killer timeline. 32 00:02:15,719 --> 00:02:17,840 So put them into groups of about three or four students, gave them a 33 00:02:17,879 --> 00:02:22,439 true crime book on a serial killer, and told them basically to create a 34 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:25,759 timeline from when that serial killer was born all the way through until they died 35 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:31,479 or were convicted, and then to compare with their timeline and what their research 36 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:36,039 is showing how it compares to what we talked about in terms of aggression in 37 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:38,960 the classroom. And so we started off with a few of those. I 38 00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:40,639 took them and throw in the firing cabinet, and then I started looking through 39 00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:44,960 my filing cabinet realized I've got a lot of timelines. So I just stuck 40 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:47,560 them into an Excel sheet and it might not even been Excel back then. 41 00:02:47,599 --> 00:02:51,319 I can't remember what the order was, but I think maybe Excel wasn't even 42 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:53,599 ready. Then just started putting them in there. And then students wanted to 43 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:58,120 know if they could do independent studies, to start doing more research, and 44 00:02:58,159 --> 00:03:01,639 it just kept building and building, and then it got out to our local 45 00:03:01,840 --> 00:03:06,319 news media that we had this database, and they were so interested in it. 46 00:03:06,319 --> 00:03:08,240 We thought, let's make it a little more formal and it's just kept 47 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:16,039 growing. So did it change format over time as that data was entered by 48 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:20,879 you and the students? How did it all come together? It changed and 49 00:03:20,919 --> 00:03:24,439 that we removed some fields and we added quite a few fields. And then 50 00:03:24,479 --> 00:03:30,439 when the FBI changed the definition from three murders to two, we had to 51 00:03:30,439 --> 00:03:34,080 go back and collect the people that we had thrown out because they had only 52 00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:37,199 the two murders. But we keep adding the fields, and we add a 53 00:03:37,199 --> 00:03:39,560 field, we have to go back and start filling in the thousands that we 54 00:03:39,919 --> 00:03:45,520 hadn't looked for that piece of information for. I'll ask the question that I 55 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:49,919 think a lot of lay people who are not interested in true criming serial killers 56 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:53,560 might ask, what is the end goal of having a serial killer database? 57 00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:57,840 That goal has changed a little bit. So when I first started, it 58 00:03:57,879 --> 00:04:00,719 was really more to just give me good statistics to use while I teach my 59 00:04:00,759 --> 00:04:04,240 class. And then it became let's go ahead and try to see if we 60 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:10,080 can get great statistics for everybody to use on serial murder. And then the 61 00:04:10,120 --> 00:04:13,159 goal became, in addition to that, let's see if we can find some 62 00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:16,600 ways to maybe help law enforcement be able to find or profile serial killers. 63 00:04:17,319 --> 00:04:20,240 And then we got rid of that goal because it didn't look like that was 64 00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:24,079 going to be very successful for a number of reasons. I think the goal 65 00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:28,560 right now is just compiling the most accurate data that's available, So we don't 66 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:32,800 really have some of these misunderstandings about about serial killers. So how many subjects 67 00:04:32,839 --> 00:04:39,199 are currently in the database, Mike, what's the universe of people were looking 68 00:04:39,240 --> 00:04:44,439 at? So overall we have just short of fifty eight hundred serial killers in 69 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:48,000 there. Most of them thirty seven hundred are from the US and about twenty 70 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:54,160 one hundred are international. That's a scary number, it is. And we've 71 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:58,199 created a kind of a second database where we're looking at instead of just a 72 00:04:58,279 --> 00:05:01,480 serial killers were looking at their victim and so that's limited for the most part 73 00:05:01,600 --> 00:05:05,240 to the US and Canadian victims. But I'll tell you that was a huge 74 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:13,639 change in our database because what we realized is breaking really basically saying we need 75 00:05:13,639 --> 00:05:17,879 to see each victim name for each serial killer really made the database more accurate 76 00:05:17,959 --> 00:05:21,839 because we had people listed as, for example, having killed six. You 77 00:05:21,879 --> 00:05:25,399 go through and try to find out who those six are, and you realize 78 00:05:25,399 --> 00:05:29,160 there were only two. But somewhere along the way somebody in law enforcement said, 79 00:05:29,399 --> 00:05:31,959 it wouldn't surprise me if they've killed six, and you realize that's not 80 00:05:32,079 --> 00:05:38,600 proof. It's not the same thing at all. Though. One thing before 81 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:43,160 we move past these numbers. Is it significant to you that there are thirty 82 00:05:43,240 --> 00:05:47,680 seven hundred serial killers in the database for the United States and twenty one hundred 83 00:05:47,759 --> 00:05:53,959 internationally. Is that a matter of data access or does the US have more 84 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:58,600 serial killers on a per capita basis than every other country on the planet. 85 00:05:59,519 --> 00:06:01,839 My take on this, and not everybody agrees with this take, but my 86 00:06:01,959 --> 00:06:05,319 take on it, it's a matter of access, because if you look at 87 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:10,160 murder rates by country, the US falls about in the middle, and so 88 00:06:10,199 --> 00:06:13,800 it doesn't make any sense that we would be about in the middle in terms 89 00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:17,560 of murder rates but number one by so much in terms of serial killers. 90 00:06:18,079 --> 00:06:20,519 It doesn't make a lot of sense. But then, if you think about 91 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:25,600 how people get into the database, they had somebody had to have killed two 92 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:29,879 or more people on two or more occasions. That had to be discovered, 93 00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:33,759 It had to be reported someplace, had to be reported someplace in English, 94 00:06:33,759 --> 00:06:38,839 because that's pretty much the only language I speak, and I barely speak that, 95 00:06:39,279 --> 00:06:42,480 and so I think the thing is it's just so much easier to get 96 00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:46,279 information about US serial killers than it is others. To give you a good 97 00:06:46,279 --> 00:06:50,399 example of that, years ago, there was a master student out in California, 98 00:06:50,399 --> 00:06:54,279 and I can't remember the name of the university, but she was from 99 00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:59,279 Japan. So she spoke fluent Japanese and she did her thesis on Japanese serial 100 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:03,279 killers, and her thesis found so many serial killers that nobody had ever reported 101 00:07:03,360 --> 00:07:06,600 before. But the difference was she spoke the language. She could look at 102 00:07:06,639 --> 00:07:11,920 the Japanese newspapers and media sources and find things nobody else could. So, 103 00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:14,920 even though it's a boring answer, it's a matter of it's more a matter 104 00:07:14,959 --> 00:07:18,480 of access than it is something about the US. I think that's really the 105 00:07:18,879 --> 00:07:23,879 explanation for it. And that's why I think when you interpret serial killer data 106 00:07:23,879 --> 00:07:28,639 in general, you just really have to be careful about how you interpret things 107 00:07:28,680 --> 00:07:32,680 because so much of it is access. What is your methodology for this in 108 00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:38,160 terms of data collection, what are the metrics that you're looking at, How 109 00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:42,079 do you get all your data, and who is doing the data entry? 110 00:07:42,199 --> 00:07:46,040 Hopefully this doesn't all fall to you. It does for the most part, 111 00:07:46,079 --> 00:07:50,879 these days. But over the years, it was mostly my students creating the 112 00:07:50,879 --> 00:07:54,800 the data I started to put in the database. But again, as students 113 00:07:54,879 --> 00:07:58,879 wanted to do independent studies, they would start to enter the the data. 114 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:03,600 I retired from I'm teaching about fifteen years ago. I'm a full time consultant 115 00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:07,519 with a consulting FIRMAUNT at DC, and so I don't have the access to 116 00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:11,600 the students that I used to. When we first started the database, the 117 00:08:11,639 --> 00:08:16,279 Internet really didn't exist, and so pretty much it was a matter of looking 118 00:08:16,319 --> 00:08:20,560 at true crime books, and there's such a difference in terms of accuracy of 119 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:24,279 those books. There are some really good true crime writers and there are some 120 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:28,120 horrible ones. One of my students got confused because the book she had they 121 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:31,279 listed three different birth dates for the killer in the same book. And that's 122 00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:35,720 not really a good that. It doesn't give you much confidence in the inaccuracy 123 00:08:35,879 --> 00:08:39,159 of the book. But then the students would go into the library and look 124 00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:43,600 at microfiche and microfilm, of looking at major newspapers like the New York Times. 125 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:50,080 But then as the Internet came about, it started changing everything. And 126 00:08:50,120 --> 00:08:52,120 if you think about today, we go through and we still look at true 127 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:56,360 crime books. We look at different media sources, but for example, ancestry 128 00:08:56,360 --> 00:09:01,919 dot com has been a phenomenal source in terms of getting birth dates and death 129 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:05,200 dates, and race information and family information whether they served in the military. 130 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:09,559 Newspapers dot com is again one of those. We get these from these small 131 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:15,120 towns. We get access to all these different newspapers. So the methods has 132 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:18,120 changed in a little bit. But what we try to do is make sure 133 00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:20,039 we have at least a couple of sources that are going to say the same 134 00:09:20,080 --> 00:09:24,320 thing. For example, if we have the date of a particular murder, 135 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:26,960 we want to find out a couple of sources more for the birth dates, 136 00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:31,840 same type of situation. Everything we have in the database is from public information, 137 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:35,559 so we don't have any secret access, let's say, to the FBI 138 00:09:35,639 --> 00:09:39,039 files. We don't have psychiatrist reports that weren't part of the court proceeding, 139 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:43,440 and we have done that on purpose because we want to share our database with 140 00:09:45,279 --> 00:09:48,960 other researchers, and if we had access to data that was private, it 141 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:52,399 would limit our ability to share that. So everything we have now is something 142 00:09:52,519 --> 00:09:58,080 that anybody could get if you want to spend thousands and thousands of hours getting 143 00:09:58,120 --> 00:10:03,799 it. It sounds like you miss your students in that regard. Oh I 144 00:10:03,840 --> 00:10:05,639 do. I miss teaching quite a bit, But I just had they were 145 00:10:05,679 --> 00:10:11,879 offering a early retirement option, the state was and this consulting firm had wanted 146 00:10:11,879 --> 00:10:13,919 me to come on board full time. It was a tough decision, but 147 00:10:15,799 --> 00:10:18,720 I'm glad I made it. But I really missed teaching, being with my 148 00:10:18,759 --> 00:10:22,679 students. How often do you add new information to the database. Is this 149 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:28,720 a weekly thing, a daily thing, monthly? It's at least a weekly 150 00:10:28,759 --> 00:10:31,080 thing, So at least once a week I'll go in and search to see 151 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:35,000 if there are new serial killers that have been identified, or if, for 152 00:10:35,039 --> 00:10:39,679 example, from an old case, there's new information that came out, for 153 00:10:39,720 --> 00:10:43,759 example that with the DNA technology now to beginning to identify victims that we had 154 00:10:43,799 --> 00:10:46,960 to be listed as unknown in the past. And so those are the kinds 155 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:52,279 of things we update. But it's really it's a weekly process. When I 156 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:56,080 had called you, I think it was last week, to ask if you 157 00:10:56,080 --> 00:11:00,320 wanted to appear in my mind ever murder, and I had mentioned the Wade 158 00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:01,799 Wilmer Senior. You had said, oh, yeah, we already have him 159 00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:07,399 in the database. So Oh my gosh, that's fast work. That's great 160 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:13,200 because it's really only been since January eighth that they made that announcement that he 161 00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:16,440 is good for the murders of Robin Edwards, David Noveline, and Teresa Howell, 162 00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:20,960 which does make him a serial killer absolutely. How does Wilmer move on 163 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:26,240 to your database so quickly? In this example, again just going through media 164 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:30,960 sources, it popped up in the headlines, and so I had his name 165 00:11:31,159 --> 00:11:33,519 go through and verify that, in fact, the three people he was suspected 166 00:11:33,559 --> 00:11:37,679 of killing there's a reasonable suspicion for that. You get a lot of ones 167 00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:41,759 of people that you can't really put in because they suspect but there's not really 168 00:11:41,879 --> 00:11:46,320 enough evidence to suggest that they did it. But right away the name goes 169 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:50,360 in. I spend some time trying to find whatever information I can find at 170 00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:54,840 him, and then mark him down as a follow up because there'll be other 171 00:11:54,879 --> 00:11:56,919 information that comes out. But he's one of those, for example, that 172 00:11:58,039 --> 00:12:01,120 could go to ancestry dot com get the birth date information, get the death 173 00:12:01,159 --> 00:12:03,360 information. You get all that stuff that wouldn't be in a newspaper article for 174 00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:07,120 example, or a media source, but is available as soon as we knew 175 00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:11,639 about him, which is a few months ago before the announcement, we had 176 00:12:11,639 --> 00:12:16,039 done all that basic research with using ancestry in newspapers, dot com and other 177 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:20,879 sources, so we had a pretty decent address history, day of birth, 178 00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:26,399 marriage, divorce, when his kids were born. But that's sort of thing, 179 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:30,279 so we had a sense of that. We're just pleasantly surprised that as 180 00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:33,679 a newly minted serial killer, which by the way, is an expression we're 181 00:12:33,799 --> 00:12:39,320 comfortable using because according to as you said, according to the FBI's criteria, 182 00:12:39,879 --> 00:12:46,799 Alan Wade Wilmer Senior meets their criteria. Interestingly, the FBI, so far 183 00:12:46,919 --> 00:12:50,000 and it's only been a month, they never call him a serial killer. 184 00:12:50,519 --> 00:12:56,480 They seem to avoid terms like that quite often they do, and I think 185 00:12:56,519 --> 00:13:00,600 that the fbis boxed themselves into a corner with their definition, because if you 186 00:13:00,639 --> 00:13:05,120 think about two or more murders on separate occasions, think about somebody who's a 187 00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:09,600 contract killer, they certainly fit the definition of a serial killer. So as 188 00:13:09,639 --> 00:13:11,120 we find them, we'll put them in our database. We don't go searching 189 00:13:11,159 --> 00:13:13,840 for the contract killers, but they would be in there. But those are 190 00:13:13,879 --> 00:13:18,960 certainly different types of people than somebody that is killing homeless folks on the street. 191 00:13:20,519 --> 00:13:24,000 The kind of the term I like to use instead of serial killer is 192 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:28,879 multiple event killer, and then I think a serial killer is going to be 193 00:13:28,919 --> 00:13:33,240 a subdivision of that, because when that term first came out, it was 194 00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:37,879 coined to describe people who killed in the series. And most of these multiple 195 00:13:37,879 --> 00:13:41,840 event killers, again, they fit the definition of the FBI serial killer, 196 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:46,639 but they're not killing in the series. They might kill three people over a 197 00:13:46,679 --> 00:13:48,879 thirty year period because they're angry, or they kill people over a period of 198 00:13:48,919 --> 00:13:52,799 time because they're robbing banks, but they're different. They're not that serial killer. 199 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:56,159 And that's one of the things that I think that we're going to try 200 00:13:56,200 --> 00:14:00,399 to do at some point is see if we can subdivide serial killers into different 201 00:14:00,399 --> 00:14:03,279 types. We already have started that, but we haven't done any analysis on 202 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:07,159 that, and I think we're going to see some real differences in these kind 203 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:11,679 of these subtypes. For example, a person who is killing women and sexually 204 00:14:11,679 --> 00:14:15,200 assaulting women is going to be very different from the person who is killing people 205 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:18,279 at seven to eleven. They're still they're going to be serial killers, but 206 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:20,679 they're not the same type of serial killer. And I think once that research 207 00:14:20,759 --> 00:14:26,080 really starts again, we're already doing the categorization of those I think we're going 208 00:14:26,159 --> 00:14:31,440 to see some really different results, different patterns. So are you thinking going 209 00:14:31,519 --> 00:14:35,399 to end up with several different subcategories? Yes, however many that is, 210 00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:39,279 I'm not sure whether it's going to be something like ten or twenty. I'm 211 00:14:39,279 --> 00:14:43,440 not sure. But I think one of the reasons that profiling has not been 212 00:14:43,519 --> 00:14:48,279 very successful is because all serial killers aren't the same. What it could be 213 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:52,320 that if you look at a certain type or subtype, that maybe they share 214 00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:54,440 a lot more in common and that profile can be much more accurate, because 215 00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:58,679 the current profile is certainly not not very accurate. I was taking a look 216 00:14:58,720 --> 00:15:03,159 at the landing page for this study and it states that you utilize over one 217 00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:09,919 hundred and eighty five data points multiple murderer methodology, victimology, and statistical analysis. 218 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:13,320 Can you talk about those one hundred and eighty five data points that you 219 00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:16,799 look at? Sure, but to save your audience a lot of listening, 220 00:15:18,879 --> 00:15:20,639 let me put it into categories. Perfect. That'd be great. Yes, 221 00:15:22,039 --> 00:15:26,480 So we start off with the actual murders themselves, in terms of when they 222 00:15:26,519 --> 00:15:30,360 began and when they ended. What cities they occurred in, what counties what 223 00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:35,720 countries. We then go to a series of columns that describe childhood, So 224 00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:39,080 when they were born, where they were born, who were they raised by, 225 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:41,639 Did they have problems in school? What type of education did they have 226 00:15:41,799 --> 00:15:46,600 at the time of the first murder. Then going to the information about the 227 00:15:46,639 --> 00:15:50,399 person themselves in terms of where they abused as a child, Did they have 228 00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:54,600 the try, did they abuse drugs or alcohol? Can you explain the triad? 229 00:15:54,639 --> 00:16:00,759 I'm sorry for those of our listeners who are not criminologists. The McDonald's 230 00:16:00,759 --> 00:16:04,759 try. It basically postulates that people who were aggressive had three common experiences. 231 00:16:06,399 --> 00:16:11,039 They were having bed wedding past the age at which you would expect bed wedding. 232 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:15,879 They were they were setting fires, and there was animal abuse, and 233 00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:18,279 so that was pretty exciting when when it first came out, But like anything, 234 00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:22,759 people thought that meant everybody that's a killer has those characteristics, and if 235 00:16:22,759 --> 00:16:26,679 you have those characteristics, you're going to be a killer. And what it 236 00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:30,720 turns out is that most of your killers and most murders don't have those characteristics. 237 00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:33,720 They might have one, but they're not going to have all three. 238 00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:37,759 And there are plenty of people who have those that don't become murders. But 239 00:16:37,879 --> 00:16:41,480 if you look at the kind of the probability, those that have all three 240 00:16:41,559 --> 00:16:47,279 characteristics are probably more likely to become violent than those that don't. But it's 241 00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:51,679 not strong enough that you can predict with those. But if they have those 242 00:16:51,679 --> 00:16:55,240 three characteristics, regardless of whether they're going to be violent in the future, 243 00:16:55,360 --> 00:16:57,879 it's problematic in terms that they're going through psychological trauma. So it's not one 244 00:16:57,879 --> 00:17:02,600 of those things that you ignore, but you don't instantly assume that they're going 245 00:17:02,639 --> 00:17:07,079 to become a killer. Very interesting, So murder's childhood, emotional factors. 246 00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:11,799 Any So those are the three main categories. Were there any others that you 247 00:17:11,799 --> 00:17:15,000 take a look at. Sure, And then we go ahead and look at 248 00:17:15,039 --> 00:17:18,640 the murders themselves in terms of how they were committed, whether, for example, 249 00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:23,200 there was something such as necrophilia that occurred, what type of weapon was 250 00:17:23,279 --> 00:17:27,519 used, who were their victims, And then it goes into the outcome of 251 00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:32,039 when they were arrested, how many murders were they charged for, did they 252 00:17:32,079 --> 00:17:36,759 confess, did they plead insanity? So it goes to pretty much every part 253 00:17:36,839 --> 00:17:41,599 of their life, in every part of kind of the murder series. Now, 254 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:44,519 I would love to say we have every bit of that information for every 255 00:17:44,599 --> 00:17:48,119 killer, but we don't. There are some things, for example, like 256 00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:52,160 race and gender that we have information on for everybody, but then things like 257 00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:57,079 were there abused as children we might have information on let's say twenty percent with 258 00:17:57,160 --> 00:18:00,079 that. And that's a good example, by the way, with the child 259 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:06,880 abuse of a difficult variable because if you're reading the trial transcripts, if the 260 00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:10,920 person was abused as a child, it's going to show up, most likely 261 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:15,880 in the sentencing part of the trial. But if they weren't abused, it's 262 00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:18,599 not really going to be mentioned. So when you see that lack of it 263 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:22,839 being mentioned, you don't know if that's a no or just we don't know, 264 00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:26,640 And so you have to just be and so we limit our entries to 265 00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:30,920 ones that we know, and most of the ones it just isn't mentioned anywhere. 266 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:33,240 And then you have to be careful too. For example, like with 267 00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:37,519 Arthur Shawcross, who was the Genesee River killer, he told all these stories 268 00:18:37,519 --> 00:18:41,160 about being abused as a child. When they interviewed his parents. Of course, 269 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:45,960 his parents said didn't happen when they interviewed some relatives they said some of 270 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:48,720 it happened and some of it didn't. And that's what you deal with a 271 00:18:48,759 --> 00:18:52,279 lot, and so you have to make some judgment calls on who are we 272 00:18:52,319 --> 00:18:56,880 believing here, And we've changed several of those codes or ratings over the years 273 00:18:56,920 --> 00:19:00,119 where we realize what we thought twenty years ago, there's evidence to suggests either 274 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:06,000 it did or didn't happen. This is pretty data intensive. How long is 275 00:19:06,039 --> 00:19:10,200 each entry if it's complete, Does it go on for page after page? 276 00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:14,319 Oh? No, it's an Excel spreadsheet. So every serial killer will have 277 00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:18,240 one row in the database, and then they'll have hopefully entries in most of 278 00:19:18,279 --> 00:19:22,880 the columns. And you can add more data as it becomes available. So 279 00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:27,960 if you learn new things from an interview or a court transcript or a well 280 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:33,000 researched book, you may add additional data points as you go along. Oh 281 00:19:33,079 --> 00:19:37,319 absolutely, yep. And then we have and this is where it's probably going 282 00:19:37,359 --> 00:19:41,200 to get start sounding boring, but in the same file as the rest of 283 00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:47,880 the database, we have separate tabs that will automatically calculate all the data Kristen 284 00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:51,680 that you were looking at in the board. It's going to automatically update those 285 00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:55,400 every time we add some new data, so it makes it makes it easier 286 00:19:55,440 --> 00:20:00,680 to summarize, and it is fascinating. What we'll do. We'll put a 287 00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:03,799 link to your most recent annual report into the show notes so that people can 288 00:20:03,839 --> 00:20:07,400 take a look at it, or that the most recent one that people have 289 00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:11,960 access to. I know it's not all publicly available. It was just fascinating 290 00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:15,920 sitting there and combing through that because it is it is just so much interesting 291 00:20:17,039 --> 00:20:21,200 data to take a look at. So how did the partnership with Florida Gulf 292 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:26,079 Coast University come about? Because this was originally it started at Radford. How 293 00:20:26,079 --> 00:20:30,319 did that partnership come about? It was really interesting. There was a grad 294 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:36,039 student at Florida Golf Coast University, Kristin eLink Sherman, Laura so a long 295 00:20:36,119 --> 00:20:40,279 name, but she was requested to access to the deity base to work on 296 00:20:40,519 --> 00:20:42,759 her thesis. She was looking at from a remembering rite. It was the 297 00:20:42,759 --> 00:20:48,839 relationship between military service and serial murder. And she got the idea that it 298 00:20:48,839 --> 00:20:52,359 would be great to put this thing online where people could go in and have 299 00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:56,599 access to it. And I thought maybe, and so they brought me down 300 00:20:56,599 --> 00:21:00,839 to Florida Gulf Coast and did a to meet all their students and they were 301 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:04,880 really charged up about doing this, so let's do it. Dween Daubert was 302 00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:10,640 the faculty advisor at the at the time, and so they took the database, 303 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:12,920 they went through and they try to confirm every entry in it, and 304 00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:17,440 so we went back and forth about whether they found something wrong, whether I 305 00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:19,279 thought it was actually wrong or not, or whether the their source was wrong. 306 00:21:19,319 --> 00:21:22,720 So that went back and forth, and then they put that online and 307 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:27,160 people can try to get access it. Now the online version is way behind. 308 00:21:27,559 --> 00:21:30,839 That's not hasn't been updated, and we're working right now with Florida Golf 309 00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:34,839 Coast to try to update something. And we're actually starting a new partnership with 310 00:21:36,079 --> 00:21:41,079 Norwich University in Vermont, and they've got some just really smart faculty and smart 311 00:21:41,079 --> 00:21:44,640 people there that Elizabeth Gurri and Rachel Sickler that are going to take it to 312 00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:48,640 the next level. So right now we're going to be working with them and 313 00:21:48,839 --> 00:21:52,160 in Florida Golf Coast to try to bring this to the kind of the modern 314 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:57,119 times as opposed to my spreadsheet. Is there such a thing as a typical 315 00:21:57,319 --> 00:22:02,920 user, like what are some of the examples of things that people might do 316 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:07,640 with the information and the database. So the typical user is either going to 317 00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:11,400 be a college professor or a grad student working on, for example, a 318 00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:15,359 thesis or a dissertation that has a particular question in mind that they're trying to 319 00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:19,039 answer. So we'll provide the database to them and they will use what we 320 00:22:19,119 --> 00:22:22,960 have but also add new information. For example, if they're going to only 321 00:22:23,039 --> 00:22:27,319 be concentrated on one thing, for example, that they can maybe find things 322 00:22:27,359 --> 00:22:30,839 that we didn't because we're concentrated on so many different variables, and then we 323 00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:34,880 can add that to the database as well. We've had a few folks in 324 00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:40,079 law enforcement that have asked for it. We thought it would actually we'd get 325 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:44,119 many more requests from law enforcement, but we haven't. Is that because people 326 00:22:44,119 --> 00:22:48,039 don't know about it, or because they don't see how they can immediately relate 327 00:22:48,079 --> 00:22:51,079 that to the work that they're doing. That's a good question. I think 328 00:22:51,079 --> 00:22:56,359 it's probably a mixture of both. You're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll 329 00:22:56,400 --> 00:23:15,720 be right back after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at mindover 330 00:23:15,839 --> 00:23:22,480 Murder. So when you hear about a new serial killer, like Allen Wade 331 00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:26,920 Wilmer Senior. We talked a little bit about some of the basic data that 332 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:30,240 you can put into the database for them, so date of birth, so 333 00:23:30,319 --> 00:23:33,839 on and so forth. What other sort of information are you looking for when 334 00:23:33,839 --> 00:23:37,000 you add a new killer to the database. Would it benefit you, for 335 00:23:37,079 --> 00:23:41,160 example, to talk to an investigator that's worked on the case, would as 336 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:45,519 long as it was data that we can publish. Again, so if we 337 00:23:45,599 --> 00:23:48,880 talked to an investigator said, now this is off the record, but that's 338 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:52,720 not going to help us because we have to have things that are publicly available. 339 00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:56,880 Where I think it comes in handy or where information is to be helpful 340 00:23:57,000 --> 00:24:02,799 is when we added the victims section. We've added a lot of columns involving 341 00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:06,799 what went on at the actual murder site. For example, was a person 342 00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:10,559 bound, was their torture, was their overkill? And that can be really 343 00:24:10,559 --> 00:24:14,359 difficult information to get. But that some of that information is still very public. 344 00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:17,680 It's just maybe something we haven't come across, and so that's the type 345 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:21,440 of information that would be helpful. A lot of that's just not available because 346 00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:23,720 they hold it back, or if there's not enough for a trial. For 347 00:24:23,839 --> 00:24:27,119 a trial, if there's not really an appeals. It doesn't show up very 348 00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:30,839 easily. To be able to read that, you'd have to be able to 349 00:24:30,839 --> 00:24:33,440 go get the original documents, and that's more work than eveninem willing to spend. 350 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:38,640 Is there a difference in what you feel you can put into the public 351 00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:44,440 record depending on whether or not a serial killer is alive or dead. For 352 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:49,279 example, Alan Wade Wilmer Sr. Died in twenty seventeen. The FBI and 353 00:24:49,319 --> 00:24:55,039 the Hampton, Virginia Police Department have confirmed through DNA that he's responsible for the 354 00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:59,079 murder of at least three people, and they're looking into more. Kristin and 355 00:24:59,079 --> 00:25:06,079 I aren't terribly shy about using his name publicly and saying he's involved in these 356 00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:10,440 murders, whereas if someone's alive, maybe they're incarcerated. But are you as 357 00:25:10,519 --> 00:25:15,160 comfortable sharing data about their crimes? I am? But the reason I am 358 00:25:15,279 --> 00:25:19,000 is because we have a column where we will label the person as, for 359 00:25:19,039 --> 00:25:25,960 example, serial suspected, serial accused, And so various researchers, for example, 360 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:29,240 have made the decision they're only going to use those that have been convicted 361 00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:33,079 in their study that being accused of being suspected is not going to be enough. 362 00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:37,160 With that kind of hedge, we feel a little bit more comfortable where 363 00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:41,839 we're very careful and don't release to very many researchers is our victim data, 364 00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:47,799 because it might be, for example, that a particular victim was a prostitute, 365 00:25:47,799 --> 00:25:49,799 at least that's what the police labeled that person or the media labeled that 366 00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:56,079 person. And we've had instances where people said, I see in their database 367 00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:59,279 that so and so would kill prostitutes. Well, he killed my daughter and 368 00:25:59,319 --> 00:26:03,119 she wasn't a pute, and go back and look at the individual victims, 369 00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:06,720 and that's exactly right. Let's say eight of the nine were prostitutes that the 370 00:26:06,799 --> 00:26:11,519 one person actually wasn't. But when you're trying to define what's that person's basic 371 00:26:11,559 --> 00:26:14,880 motive or who are they killing, it was prostitutes. So I'm really gun 372 00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:18,599 shy about sharing victim data. For example, that would never go to a 373 00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:22,279 grad student. That would have to be to an academic that we trusted in 374 00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:26,720 that agreed to be very careful. And if you have we have several people 375 00:26:26,039 --> 00:26:30,519 that we are close with in the community who have survived serial killers. If 376 00:26:30,559 --> 00:26:33,559 someone has survived an attacked by a serial killer, do they go into the 377 00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:37,519 victim database or is there like a whole separate set of data to go with 378 00:26:37,559 --> 00:26:41,480 that. That's a great question. Right now, the only victims we have 379 00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:45,200 are ones that were killed first a serial killer. We might list them as, 380 00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:49,319 for example, two murders plus attempts, So it may be that they 381 00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:56,319 had three unsuccessful attempts. And we think that's important because again we find researchers 382 00:26:56,319 --> 00:26:59,359 don't feel comfortable with the FBI two or more. They want to maybe go 383 00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:03,119 three or four, and so they can then decide is two murders and two 384 00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:06,839 attempts enough for them to do that. I want to get into some of 385 00:27:06,839 --> 00:27:10,640 the nitty gritty questions that I came up with as I was doing my deep 386 00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:15,079 dive into the data analysis here. So I'll start with something kind of general, 387 00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:18,240 and then we'll move into more specifics. What were some of the most 388 00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:22,880 interesting or surprising pieces of data that really stood out to you as you went 389 00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:27,079 and started combing over the database. I think the biggest surprise, this is 390 00:27:27,079 --> 00:27:32,400 one I've mentioned previously, is that there's so many types of serial killers. 391 00:27:32,519 --> 00:27:36,119 We got just that one term that wasn't expecting to see that because when we 392 00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:40,319 started the database. That term was you conjure up like a Ted Bundy, 393 00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:41,880 that all of these serial killers we find are going to be Ted Bundy. 394 00:27:42,079 --> 00:27:45,559 They're not. And so that was the biggest surprise and the thing I think 395 00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:51,759 that's complicated again some of the data analysis the most is until we really get 396 00:27:51,839 --> 00:27:55,880 these types figured out, these subtypes, we're not going to make as much 397 00:27:55,880 --> 00:28:00,519 progress as we wanted. Another thing I found that was surprising was how inaccurate 398 00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:04,160 that kind of common profile was. So the common profile is that it's a 399 00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:07,240 serial killer, was it's a white male in their mid to late twenties. 400 00:28:07,599 --> 00:28:11,079 So that profile, if you look to say it's nineteen ninety, it's seven 401 00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:15,160 percent fit that profile. That's not a much of a profile when it's seven 402 00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:22,240 years old and far from a general category that would fit most of the crimes 403 00:28:22,279 --> 00:28:26,160 committed. Yeah, so that's one And one of the reasons I think that's 404 00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:30,279 particularly important is that you get somebody who might be, for example, fifty 405 00:28:30,279 --> 00:28:33,920 five years old and is black, and people would say that can't be one 406 00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:37,400 of our suspects because they don't fit the profile. Nobody fits your profile, 407 00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:41,119 so you have to be careful about about that. Another thing that I found 408 00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:45,480 really interesting was that there's a thought that a stereotype that serial killers are going 409 00:28:45,559 --> 00:28:48,559 to have a certain type of victim, So I'm only going to kill women, 410 00:28:48,599 --> 00:28:51,240 I'm only going to kill somebody with a certain race or age. Turns 411 00:28:51,279 --> 00:28:55,880 out that only thirty seven percent of serial killers kill people that are the same 412 00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:57,839 sex, the same race, the same age. And so again, if 413 00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:03,720 you're law enforcement and you're trying to determine, trying to link different murders, 414 00:29:03,119 --> 00:29:07,359 and he said, couldn't be this person couldn't be linked because they were shot 415 00:29:07,359 --> 00:29:11,000 as opposed to stab or this was a male and most of the victims are 416 00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:14,799 women. It turns out that linkage is just not there. And I think 417 00:29:14,839 --> 00:29:18,000 when you talked to Thomas Hargraved, he probably found this. He probably told 418 00:29:18,039 --> 00:29:21,079 you some of the same things. The linkage is a very difficult thing to 419 00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:26,640 do. I was pushing back on this issue today regarding discussions in our social 420 00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:33,319 media pages on the Colonial Parkway murders. People are looking for patterns which may 421 00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:37,880 or may not be there. But for example, I've got several people and 422 00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:41,119 these are well meaning folks, are supporters of ours and are interested in these 423 00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:45,880 cases. But for instance, I've got several people insisting, Oh, it's 424 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:51,519 very clear that Wilmer likes dark haired women. Yes, there are some victims 425 00:29:51,519 --> 00:29:55,839 with dark hair, but in the mix there's some blondes and redheads too. 426 00:29:56,200 --> 00:30:00,680 And he has killed both women and men, and he's killed there's one single 427 00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:06,519 woman and at least one straight couple. And he's suspected of killing a lesbian 428 00:30:06,559 --> 00:30:08,880 couple, my sister and her girlfriend. Now that hasn't been proving yet, 429 00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:15,039 but my point is, boy, everybody wants to say this particular killer kills 430 00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:18,920 this particular kind of person in this way, and both Kristin and I are 431 00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:23,720 trying to respectfully push back on that because the profilers that we've met with and 432 00:30:23,759 --> 00:30:27,640 we've learned a lot and they're fascinating people. Oh my gosh. Yeah, 433 00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:33,039 it's been so interesting for us to have opportunities to sit down with these folks, 434 00:30:33,319 --> 00:30:37,599 both on and off the air. They're saying the same thing that you 435 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:41,119 are, Mike, which is that we can't keep insisting that serial killers kill 436 00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:45,960 the same type of victim in the same type of way, under the same 437 00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:51,359 circumstances. That just doesn't seem to be anything close to the way profilers in 438 00:30:51,359 --> 00:30:56,240 twenty twenty four are seeing things. I agree completely, and that's the problem 439 00:30:56,279 --> 00:30:59,240 though, when you have something that was published at say, thirty forty years 440 00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:03,400 ago, it doesn't go away, It just keeps it hangs on, regardless 441 00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:07,640 of what the kind of the current facts are. It makes something else that 442 00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:12,240 I found very interesting, And I'm wondering if some of this question can be 443 00:31:12,799 --> 00:31:18,240 answered by the idea that maybe there just wasn't enough reporting going on during these 444 00:31:18,279 --> 00:31:23,440 decades. There is a massive jump in the number of serial killers between nineteen 445 00:31:23,559 --> 00:31:30,160 fifty and nineteen eighty. You went from ninety active serial killers in nineteen fifty 446 00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:33,160 to sixty to two hundred and fifty one to six hundred seventy to eight hundred 447 00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:37,599 and twenty three in nineteen eighty. Is that a reporting issue or were there 448 00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:41,559 really just a massive jump in the number of serial killers in this country in 449 00:31:41,599 --> 00:31:47,200 those decades. I think a big part of it a reporting issue. So 450 00:31:47,279 --> 00:31:51,160 the term serial killer was coined depends on who you believe, but was coined 451 00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:53,359 in for the most part in the nineteen seventies. So if you're doing a 452 00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:56,720 search for serial kill like using the term serial killer, you're not going to 453 00:31:56,759 --> 00:32:00,440 pop up with something in the nineteen fifties or sixty so you have to look 454 00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:07,000 for headlines that might be killed two, killed three, and so we meticulously 455 00:32:07,039 --> 00:32:09,039 go through when you use all those kind of combinations to try to find those. 456 00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:15,279 Now, it makes sense that serial killers means would rise in the fifties, 457 00:32:15,279 --> 00:32:17,839 sixties, and seventies because the interstate system, there's more access to the 458 00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:22,079 country, and if they're killing in different states, it's more difficult to perhaps 459 00:32:22,119 --> 00:32:24,759 to be to be identified and caught. But I think so much of it 460 00:32:24,799 --> 00:32:30,119 is a reporting issue that definitely makes sense. I'm writing that down about the 461 00:32:30,119 --> 00:32:36,240 interstate system because that is not something that I had previously thought of. It 462 00:32:36,319 --> 00:32:39,119 was interesting to think about the ways that the country was changing during those time 463 00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:44,480 periods that might lead to those numbers changing. I'm making sure I'm putting that 464 00:32:44,519 --> 00:32:47,200 down. I guess in the same sort of vein why is it that the 465 00:32:47,279 --> 00:32:52,839 numbers of serial killers have trended steadily downwards since nineteen eighty Is that because law 466 00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:59,039 enforcement is getting better at tracking them in solving cases. Is it just that 467 00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:01,559 maybe serial killers are getting a little tired and taking a break and going into 468 00:33:01,599 --> 00:33:07,119 retirement. I think there's several things that are going on there. One is 469 00:33:07,119 --> 00:33:10,960 certainly the law enforcement's gotten better in terms of things like DNA being able to 470 00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:15,000 link murder, so that's certainly part of it. Technology, though, I 471 00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:17,200 think, is another one of those things that has changed. For example, 472 00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:22,079 if you think about serial killers that are black widows, so those are predominantly 473 00:33:22,079 --> 00:33:25,640 women who kill spouses for usually for money, But there are other reasons as 474 00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:29,359 well. If you go back to, for example, nineteen twenty or nineteen 475 00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:31,319 thirty, somebody could kill a spouse, move to another state, kill a 476 00:33:31,359 --> 00:33:36,720 spouse, still get the insurance money. Where today all these computers are, 477 00:33:36,759 --> 00:33:39,960 the databases are linked, it would be very difficult to try to get insurance 478 00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:45,720 on a third spouse that was mysteriously killed. So I think the technology is 479 00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:49,640 there. When you think about hospitals serial killers who kill their patients, the 480 00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:52,920 software is out there now that you have expected death rates for every type of 481 00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:58,279 illness, and when those death rates exceed a certain level, it's flagged. 482 00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:00,759 So those are some of the reasons. But I think there's really two main 483 00:34:00,839 --> 00:34:07,960 reasons that are responsible for this decline. One is change in parole. If 484 00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:09,719 you look at the seventies and eighties, for example, where the serial killer 485 00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:14,199 rates were highest, there was a lot of pressure to parole people, the 486 00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:17,000 prisons were overcrowded, there was kind of a movement toward prison reform. So 487 00:34:17,199 --> 00:34:22,480 we're releasing people then that would maybe become serial killers. An interesting fact is 488 00:34:22,519 --> 00:34:27,920 that in our database, eighteen percent of the serial killers in our database had 489 00:34:28,039 --> 00:34:32,079 killed, gone to prison and been released. And so if you are more 490 00:34:32,079 --> 00:34:37,840 strict on parole, I think that's one of the reasons people which we are 491 00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:42,920 these days. I think that is one of the explanations. And the other 492 00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:47,239 one is there are just fewer high risk behaviors that people engage in today. 493 00:34:47,639 --> 00:34:51,880 So when I think about when I was growing up, I rode my bike 494 00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:57,360 everywhere, I hitchhiked, I picked up hitchhikers, I walked to elementary school. 495 00:34:57,559 --> 00:35:00,079 Today, there are no parents that are going to let you do that. 496 00:35:00,159 --> 00:35:02,559 There are very few people who would hitchhikers hitch hikers. And so we 497 00:35:02,599 --> 00:35:07,960 did an analysis of comparing in the seventies and eighties the percentage of murders that 498 00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:13,840 were serial killers, serial murders that were of high risk behaviors such as hitch 499 00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:17,320 hiking, and helping people who with stranded motorists with the ones from the last 500 00:35:17,599 --> 00:35:22,519 two decades, and there's such a drop. It's a huge drop. And 501 00:35:22,599 --> 00:35:25,199 when you think about cell phones, thirty years ago, if your car broke 502 00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:28,960 down, you'd either have to get in a car with somebody or have them 503 00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:31,199 go to the gas station to use a payphone. Now you're not going to 504 00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:34,480 let anybody in your car. You're not going to get in their car. 505 00:35:34,519 --> 00:35:36,960 You're going to use your cell phone call for help. And so I think 506 00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:40,039 a lot of those high risk behaviors have changed. A few days ago, 507 00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:44,719 my partner Pamela and I were driving along the country road and there was a 508 00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:47,880 pickup truck parked next to the road on this kind of straight, quiet stretch. 509 00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:52,800 The hazard drawn on and we didn't see anybody in the vehicle. But 510 00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:55,760 then a couple one hundred yards down the road, and this is wintertime, 511 00:35:57,079 --> 00:36:00,880 snowy and cold, there's a woman walking along on the road. We stopped. 512 00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:05,840 I tried to let Haamla be visible, so she leaned forward. But 513 00:36:06,079 --> 00:36:10,039 we just stopped briefly to ask if the woman was all right, and she 514 00:36:10,159 --> 00:36:14,239 smiled and said she was, and it looked like she was actually out for 515 00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:16,880 a walk. And I'm not even sure that was her truck. Necessarily, 516 00:36:17,039 --> 00:36:21,039 she told us she was fine and she was just out for a walk on 517 00:36:21,079 --> 00:36:24,000 a beautiful winter day. We just wanted to make certain that she wasn't out 518 00:36:24,039 --> 00:36:29,480 there in the boonies without a cell phone or whatever. So she smiled, 519 00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:34,239 and she seemed accepting of the fact that we'd made this offer of assistance. 520 00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:38,400 In listening to you just now, Mike, I'm thinking maybe that's increasingly rare. 521 00:36:39,039 --> 00:36:44,519 I think it is. Yeah. Absolutely. Do you have enough information 522 00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:50,679 yet to draw any conclusions on how the pandemic affected the number and type of 523 00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:54,000 serial killers? I realized we're really barely out of the pandemic. Has there 524 00:36:54,039 --> 00:36:59,480 been any information that you can lean about how that affected serial killers? And 525 00:36:59,639 --> 00:37:04,039 there are activities not at this point. One reason would be is that there 526 00:37:04,079 --> 00:37:07,880 have not really been a lot of serial murders over the last few years, 527 00:37:07,119 --> 00:37:10,079 which is a good thing, but it's a bad thing for data, so 528 00:37:10,199 --> 00:37:15,400 it would be difficult to do that. There's a lag period really between oftentimes 529 00:37:15,559 --> 00:37:20,400 the serial killings and then when they're arrested and whether it gets announced. So 530 00:37:20,679 --> 00:37:23,119 I would say it'll be at least a decade before we could start to address 531 00:37:23,159 --> 00:37:27,920 that. Question. Oh wow, Okay, that does make sense though. 532 00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:35,079 Absolutely. Do you feel like the advances in forensic technology and manly the things 533 00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:39,920 we've talked about over the last few minutes have discouraged people who might have exhibited 534 00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:44,599 these behaviors in the past. That's a great question, and I've had those 535 00:37:44,599 --> 00:37:49,800 conversations with colleagues, and my initial response to you is, I don't know, 536 00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:52,320 because it can go both ways, right. It can be now that 537 00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:57,920 I know what these advances and forensics are, I'm going to avoid leaving fingerprints. 538 00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:00,800 I'm going to avoid leaving DnaB and so it could be to encourage some 539 00:38:01,039 --> 00:38:05,079 that think that they can avoid it, or for some of them, it 540 00:38:05,159 --> 00:38:07,039 may be They're going to catch me, so I'm not going to do it. 541 00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:09,800 And that would depend, I think on the again, like the subtype 542 00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:13,360 of serial killer, because there are going to be some killers that they haven't 543 00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:15,280 need to kill, and they're going to probably kill no matter what. But 544 00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:20,159 I think some of these ones that maybe kill for financial gain that may have 545 00:38:20,159 --> 00:38:22,519 slown that pace down a little bit. Just occurred to me when you were 546 00:38:22,519 --> 00:38:28,519 talking earlier about subdividing different types of killers. Are you eventually going to have 547 00:38:28,559 --> 00:38:32,360 a different database for mass shooters and spree shooters. Is that going to become 548 00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:36,360 a whole separate database or are they just going to exist on the serial killer 549 00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:38,599 database? Yeah, they don't exist. The mass killers don't exist in our 550 00:38:38,679 --> 00:38:42,480 database. Oh they don't, Okay, don't. And I know that there 551 00:38:42,519 --> 00:38:46,679 are several researchers that have developed databases on mass killers, and so I think 552 00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:51,519 that's well taken care of by some other folks. The one that was more 553 00:38:51,559 --> 00:38:55,599 difficult for spree killers because again with the FBI basically said that they don't really 554 00:38:55,599 --> 00:39:00,599 distinguish between cereal and spree in terms of the motives and those types of things, 555 00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:06,400 and so we will include those but labeled them as within our database as 556 00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:09,440 spree and again, researchers can make their own decision about whether they want to 557 00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:12,599 include them or not. One of the things we've tried to do is be 558 00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:16,440 overly inclusive and then let researchers who use the database make their decisions about who 559 00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:19,800 stays and who goes, and whether they have to have a certain type of 560 00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:23,400 motive or not. Do you know if any serial killers who are currently incarcerated 561 00:39:23,519 --> 00:39:29,440 have ever been permitted to access the database? I know that there are people 562 00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:34,639 that are currently incarcerated that do have internet access that actually have made use of 563 00:39:34,679 --> 00:39:37,920 their time. But I didn't know if they ever had looked themselves or other 564 00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:42,159 people up in the database. To have access, they would have had to 565 00:39:42,199 --> 00:39:45,840 make a formal request, and if we saw, for example, that it 566 00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:49,639 was coming from a prison, it would be declined. But it doesn't mean 567 00:39:49,679 --> 00:39:52,039 that again that they don't can't get somebody else to request it for them. 568 00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:57,159 I've noticed that I've had several requests from students where I've said, yeah, 569 00:39:57,360 --> 00:40:00,760 we'll give you this part of the database. Here's the condition, so you 570 00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:04,920 need to agree to those and please copy your advisor on the email and the 571 00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:07,039 way I can look up the advisor make sure they exist. I've had several 572 00:40:07,039 --> 00:40:10,000 times where the student didn't get back. I thought, yes, because it's 573 00:40:10,039 --> 00:40:14,519 not for a class project. That must mean you have people trying to access 574 00:40:14,559 --> 00:40:17,679 the database just for I'm interested in serial killers, but not in an academic 575 00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:22,039 way. What we do and the one where I struggle with now is I 576 00:40:22,079 --> 00:40:25,840 get requests from students who are in data science programs, so they need a 577 00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:30,239 database to be able to do a class project for data science, and they 578 00:40:30,239 --> 00:40:35,199 think serial killers are interesting, but they're not really trying to study serial killers, 579 00:40:35,519 --> 00:40:38,360 and so in those situations, I'll usually ask them what fields do you 580 00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:42,679 want and give them maybe a smaller number of fields. We don't give them 581 00:40:42,679 --> 00:40:45,159 the whole thing, and then I don't give them the names of the serial 582 00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:47,880 killers. That way they can run their data and not worry about privacy aspects. 583 00:40:49,559 --> 00:40:52,599 Mike, what can we do to help you with data on Alan Wade 584 00:40:52,639 --> 00:40:58,559 Wilmer Senior so that we can round out his entry in your database? We 585 00:40:58,599 --> 00:41:01,119 want to give you as much help as possible, because obviously we have invested 586 00:41:01,079 --> 00:41:05,440 interest in his activities. So tell us how we can help you. We 587 00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:08,719 would love to be able to that's and I appreciate that. Probably the easiest 588 00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:14,360 thing would be if I sent you both the victim and the serial killer data 589 00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:16,039 that we already have. Have you take a look to see if there are 590 00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:20,239 fields that you can fill in that I have blank, and that would be 591 00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:23,039 great perfect. We would love to be able to help in any way we 592 00:41:23,079 --> 00:41:27,960 can on that. How long do you see yourself continuing to do work on 593 00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:30,119 the databasis? Is just going to be an all the time thing? Or 594 00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:34,039 is this your baby and you're invested in it. It's my baby, and 595 00:41:34,079 --> 00:41:37,480 I'm invested in it, so I will all continue to do it. But 596 00:41:37,559 --> 00:41:40,880 I think that's why the kind of the relationships or the partnerships with Florida Gulf 597 00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:45,320 Coast and Norwich are important because they can take it to a different level. 598 00:41:45,679 --> 00:41:49,480 So I'm going to still work on it because it's fun. It's like being 599 00:41:49,519 --> 00:41:52,719 a little detective. And it's terrible when you get excited because you found a 600 00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:55,920 birth date, but it makes my day, and so I'll continue to do 601 00:41:57,000 --> 00:42:00,599 that even after I retire. But I think that again, with those two 602 00:42:00,679 --> 00:42:04,559 universities, they're going to take it to that next level. Doctor Mike ah 603 00:42:04,599 --> 00:42:08,400 Mottz, formerly of Redford University, the inventor, shall i say, of 604 00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:14,400 the Radford University of Florida Gulf Coast University Serial Killer Research Database. Mike, 605 00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:17,559 thank you so much for joining us today and lending us your considerable expertise. 606 00:42:17,599 --> 00:42:21,159 We appreciate it. Oh, I enjoyed it. It was great to meet 607 00:42:21,199 --> 00:42:22,800 both of you. Thank you so much. That is going to do it 608 00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:25,960 for this episode of mind Over Murder. Thank you so much for listening. 609 00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:39,760 We'll see you next time. Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero 610 00:42:40,199 --> 00:42:45,719 and Another Dog Productions. Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. 611 00:42:46,079 --> 00:42:52,239 Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. Our theme music is by Kevin McLeod. 612 00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:57,719 Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with crawl Space Media. You can 613 00:42:57,760 --> 00:43:00,760 follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or in Instagram. You can also follow 614 00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:06,079 our page on the Colonial Parkway Murders on Facebook, and finally, you can 615 00:43:06,119 --> 00:43:09,679 follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at Bill Thomas. Five six. Thank you for 616 00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:13,320 listening to mind Over Murder.