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Thank you very much for listening. Let's go over to the interview. Hi.
You're listening to The Sociology Show, a podcast about absolutely anything to do
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name is Matthew Wilkin. In each episode, I will speak to someone working
in the field of sociology and let them explain all about their own interests,
their research, and their experiences. So put your ear votes in, turn
the volume up, and let's be sociology geeks together. A Hello and welcome
to The Sociology Show podcast. Would you like to start by telling us a
little bit about who you are and what you do? Please, no problem,
Thanks for having me on the show. Really appreciate it. My name
is Anton Roberts and I am a kind of social policy kind of researcher,
I would say, in the area of sociology and criminology. So I am
a PhD researcher at i MMU, and I also work for PROUGH, the
Policy Evaluation and Research Unit as well. Great, thank you very much,
and we're going to talk about your research, which is on homelessness, gender
and homelessness, but a little bit more all about it for us. Yeah.
Yeah, So the official title is a Mixed Method Study into the Gender
Nature of Homeless Communities. So essentially, I'm kind of exploring both the kind
of presentations that you tend to see in those kinds of populations from from a
gender point of view, and I'm also kind of exploring the social capital elements
as well, so you know, the sort of social resources that do or
do not exist in in arguably quite hostile environments. And that's kind of you
know, in a nutshell or would you like more? No, Yeah,
I can go all day, Matthew. I'm could have started right from the
beginning, because I think people are probably aware that that homelessness is you know,
majority male. What sort of percentage you were talking about, what ways
the breakdown of male to female. Oh right, okay, So if and
again it's always gets a little bit tricky because there are types different types of
homelessness. So if if if, if you're talking about visible for forms of
homelessness, which is what I look at, So I look at kind of
street street based, rough sleeping kind of form for homelessness, we're with that.
It's over while willly male, I mean really sort of ninety percent that's
yeah, that's that, that's typical. It's like sexually, I mean it's
a little bit more common now, but it's it's it's really rare generally to
see a woman in a in a in a service in that way. And
if they are, they're never alone, usually with a male. If if
you're talking more hidden homelessness as as we would talk about it in the literature,
that is I think decidedly more female. But the problem with that is
obviously the numbers trying to trying to capture that is incredibly difficult because you know
that they might be in in sort of very difficult home kind of like like
domestic violence situations which you know, we we we just wouldn't know unless they
and if they unless they had an involvement in service, or they might be
in some type of you know, shelter sort of type of thing, like
you know, for maybe nothing for women who are fleeing domestic violence. So
that it's it's actually really really really difficult for us, for me, or
any of us really as a a homelessness researcher to give you an idea of
how large the hiding homelessess population is in the UK. I really couldn't tell
you. I wish I could, but yeah, and your research does it
take place in Manchester? I know that's where where you're based. Yeah,
yeah, yeah, So mine was a primarily ethnographic over sort of the two
year period. So I did it. I did it across three three sites
in Manchester, so I was I was based in like three homelessness services that
cater to sort of street sleeping homeless primarily. I would say I'd probably know
the answer to this because it's obviously a major city. But how how bad
is the issue in Manchester? I mean, I'm based in Brighton. We've
got a big homeless problem here, and I just wondered how Manchester compares to
say the capital for example. Yeah, nowhe's worse than London obviously, but
I would say Manchester's probably probably second on that unfortun that list, I would
say, and we we we we do a large, a large problem here.
If you're talking about, you know, from the point of view of
of of like going to a council and say, you know, I need
you know, assistance, please help sort of this sort of thing, and
you know where you would have like an assessment from a local authority that kind
of shifts between one hundred two hundred thousand kind of you know kind of thing.
But that obviously doesn't mean that they'll get help. That's just where there's
there's an assessment going on basically that that that that happen kind of counts.
You know, it's usually kind of place sort of like a couple of hundred
kind of kind of ballpack figure in terms of like rough sleeping. But again,
if you were to speak to the services there, they would all say
that that there's far more than that, because most most of these guys will
avoid, you know, people from the council, like the plague. So
you know, if they're they're going around going oh, you know there's a
guy there's you know, they they they won't won't be there. So when
I was all, well, all the services I was I was at,
you would see you know, seventy you know, sort of one hundred plus
in one day, you know, and some of those where sort of like
return to service users, but many of them went, many of them went.
So yeah, I suspect it's always it's always a larger problem than we're
aware of. Usually it's a particular hotspots in the city center as well.
Oh yeah, good question. So yeah, so it's a bit of a
it's a tough one, so yes, but it's also so much more contested.
So obviously they get that there's there's increased footfall, right, So generally,
yes, then that there is more more people experiencing homelessness there, but
there's all but there's also much more restrictions in terms of where they where they
can can't go. So you know, so we have things like pspos like
Public Space protection or just for example that kind of criminalize lots of well quite
ordinary behavior really like drinking. You know, like if if if if you're
a student, say on a Friday, having a drink, that's that's usually
not a problem. But if you're if you're unfortunately someone who's homeless and you're
doing the same thing, then it allows councils to criminalize in that way.
So we have we have, we have a lot of those in operation so
so so yes, there is more of them, but they're also regularly moved
on and it's quite a struggle for them to exist in those spaces often.
That makes sense. Yeah, that's useful. So let's get stuck into before
we sort of find learn a little bit more about your findings. You mentioned
about how you did your research, so a couple of years ethnographic research.
Do you want to say a little bit more about sort of your methodology if
you like, Yeah, absolutely so mine's Mine's a mixed method study. So
I kind of drew on a couple of different pieces. My main bulk is
ethnographic, just just because that's what I've loved the most, even before I
was involved in research. I think is really the only way that you can
really understand the social context is by immersing yourself in it. You know.
I was very kind of influenced by the kind of earlier like Margaret Meade,
kind of more anthropological kind of work, and I was loved idea of immersing
myself and basing myself there so that so that was the I suppose the largest
element where I would use a version of ethnography called at home ethnography. So
that's where you where you actually imbed yourself within the organization. So you know,
with sort of like traditional hardcore, you know, you would sort of
be a fly in the war, right, you wouldn't be involved in it
in any way, but there are there are there are those that argue that
really to really know the kind of the language and and really what's going on
there, you really have to have a more more sort of skin in the
game, as it were. So I was a volunteer in all these places,
so I was not just having informal conversations. I was actually helping the
service users in the same way that after a while the staff. And it
also gave me a really interesting insight into the service tensions as well as the
members of staff as well and their struggles in a way that I wouldn't have
been able to see if I was just on the kind of periphery as it
were, not that I sort of had a side any of this. Really
I was as open as possible, so that so that was kind of my
main part, and I also did some more conventional in depth interviews as well
with obviously with individuals as I as I kind of got to know them,
and I use something called SNA. SNA is something called social network analysis,
so that's where in the individual's name, their their their connections, so that
there's a couple of different variations, but I was using it, I was
trying to use it, and it's not really been done that way before.
I'm trying to use it quite a qualitative way to really kind of tell a
story of social devastation really for want of a better word. So it kind
of entails participants essentially giving all their all their connections in the in their social
networks and specifically what they're getting from those from from those connections as well,
and just I'm just like, like the nature of those nature and the type
of bonds that that they kind of have, which I'm which I'm trying to
now as I'm currently writing up, tie all this together so in theory it
will be a consistent narrative as it were, right that I'm able to back
up with something that's that's kind of partially quantitative but mostly qualitative. I think
I think it allows for in in you know, an unusual perspective and quite
insightful, and I hope and you mentioned always being open volunteering there, so
whether people always aware that you are a research yourself, you're quite quite open
getting the content in that respect. Yeah, so yeah, so this is
always are always a controversial subject, right as the as the blurring of boundaries
and how far you go. So I think you can. I think you
can only really figure stuff like that out in the field, if I mean
totally honest, you can. You can always have, you know, a
rough idea of how you of how how forthcoming you're going to be, but
you're never really going to know until you're in that situation and what works and
what doesn't. So I did I did have a more general plan of being
as kind of I don't know how i'd say it. You know, i'd
be a bit more formal and empirical, and you know, I'm this you
know, impartial researcher with no feelings. You know, this this mindless automenton.
But obviously that's not that's not reality and that's not who we are.
So I kind of had to kind of like develop that and and I suppose
it became a I think what's talked about in the literature as a strategic undressing.
So you so, yeah, so so you share to an extent that
improves the rapport, the level of data collection, you know, the kind
of the well that engenders trust, you know, things like that, right,
And I would kind of allow the participants to really kind of take the
lead in that. So to give you an example, one when I was
doing one of one of my interviews, one of my participants was obviously talking
about how difficult some of the mental health sort of like related strains where of
having an experience of homelessness, and there was a there was a there was
a bit of a bit a bit of a discussion around therapy and and you
know, I could tell that they wanted to say more, but they were
they were self conscious because obviously it's a male speaking to another male, which
is which is also as also elevant. So I made the Madia decision then
to the to the disclose that I had years ago done therapy in myself and
found it really useful. And you know that that that that that there was
no no shame in doing that, and by disclosing that it then empowers that
person to be able to talk about some of their experience of men's health.
Now I could have gone further than that and obviously spoke about my actual experiences
in detail, but obviously I felt that would have been inappropriate obviously. So
there, so there there is that line there of like how of exactly how
much you share as well. So I was very kind of intentional about that,
like is this is this going to help them? Obviously? Is this
going to be inappropriate? It was? It was. It was an ongoing
tension and one that we almost navigate as ethogo research. And I wish I
could say there was a cut and fast rule for that, but there really
isn't. So it you know, in terms of my kind of how I
declared myself, that's that. Yeah, that's that's an interesting one. I
think at first I was I was I was too honest, I was too
I was too kind of transparent, and the fact that I was a you
know, a researcher on homelessness and many of them found a little a little
bit intimidating and off putting, and it became a little bit of a barrier
for me actually, like connecting with service users and staff as well, because
there was this weird thing where sometimes staff can see it was a little bit
like as a bit of an unknown commodity and they think, well, what's
what what what's this person doing here? Like what's their intention type thing?
So I kind of dialed it back a little bit and was honest, but
I wouldn't darrelge too much, so you know, I would just say,
you know, I may, yeah, I'm a researcher, you know,
with an interest in homelessness, which which obviously is true. And then if
if if they had more of an interest and they wanted to know, then
then I would obviously tell them, But again I would allow them in a
much more organic way to kind of tell me how much they wanted to know.
If obviously, if I was interviewing them, they obviously there's a full
consent and disclosure all and all those things, but in a kind of day
to day kind of being there, that's kind of why how I would tend
to approach it. Yes, And I'm just thinking skipping ahead just slightly for
a moment as well, do you do you keep anonymity when you come to
write up your findings or is it again that to them for because obviously well
as you will know we all have to go through you know, board committee
ethical board committees, and that can be quite prohibitive at times, especially when
you're working with such a profoundly traumatized, you know, sort of complex group.
And I'm on the sort of extreme measures of that as well, because
I'm looking at rough sleeping. So they tend to have, you know,
all the worst things imaginable that can happen to a person has happened to them.
So as much as I would like to, because originally I kind of
wanted to have them almost as named authors, almost you know, because I'm
very much into ideas of sort of like co ownership of like co production and
things like that. But for their own safety, yeah, I really have
to anonymous obviously, like they will be thanked and there's there's a discussion there
around you know, maybe I can use the first name. I also will
be in contact with them in terms obviously of you're sharing all the insights and
and and results with them, but there's also increased risk with the type of
method that I'm using, so because I'm essentially not only into interview them but
about their ideas of you know, gender and things like that. But I'm
also capturing their entire social world. So so that's actually quite easy to identify
if you already know them as well. So I so, you know,
especially since I'm kind of representing that visually, that that there is a real
risk there that if I'm not careful, I might I might expose I might
expose who who they are. And when you think about the kind of prevalence
of violence and that in their world as well overwhelming as a victim, of
course, then that's a that's a real difficult one for me. So yeah,
yeah, yeah, that's really difficult, isn't it to get that balance?
Right? Okay, should we get should we get stuck into some of
the findings then? So, is there a common kind of theme that runs
through a lot of people's stories in terms of how they've ended up on the
streets? So I just wonder if there's you know, this is just my
outsider looking in, but I often assume that it's linked to some sort of
addiction, you know, a drug addiction, now cold addiction that comes first.
Is there a common link there? Yeah, just start off with a
nice and easy one. Yeah, yeah, exactly that straight in there,
Okay, Yeah, the causes of homelessness. So I mean we can we
can talk at a little bit about the litter. That's helpful first, just
because we tend to so I think it was Fitzpatcha that talks about this,
but we tend to think about kind of roots in and out of homelessness.
So although obviously everyone is an individual and there are individual circumstances, there are
certainly kind of common routes that that we see coming you know, through that,
with that, with that, with that that we will see you time
and time again, and and and sort of certain sets of or triggers and
risk risk factors and things like that. So speaking very very broadly, you
will often see eight year the presence of a CES, you know, adverse
childhood experiences. That's that's that's really common. There will be a lot of
cases. There'll be care leaders as well, see a lot of that.
Often it's most often the kind of substances and misuse. Well, at least
in my experience as well, is it is it is often later as they've
kind of been trying to cope and kind of you know, mediate for things
that may that that may have happened to them. I'm obviously acknowledging that I'm
slightly biased in terms of my population is male and roughly them mostly, So
these are these things can kind of combine early on and obviously like men and
many of them as well. To be honest, we'll we'll we'll talk about
you know, experiences of abuse and trauma at various stages. If they are
as well, you think you'll notice, well like if you if you're a
woman, for example, that there's obviously differences there in your in your in
your experience, so those syst there might be some some some violence my partner
as well, not that not that that's that that's exclusive to uh, you
know, two women. So yeah, those are those are kind of the
kind of earlier ones and then being a bit more a bit more specific in
my case, there's there's a couple of things. So if you're if you're
if you're experiencing rough rough rough sleeping as well, the longer that you're in
that environment for the more of these kind of experiences, these risk factors you're
picking up. Yeah, so you know, your your health is the is
the is the tear rating, you know, you're you're you're you're having men
mental health crisis, you know, multiple a lot often the case, and
there's a real sense in which these things build on top of each other and
and just compound. So it's it's really difficult to pick out, you know,
any one a lot of cases, one is primary, you know,
I would say, or one or one has become you know, you know,
you're more more dominant. So there's a lot of with a lot of
the men that I that I speak to, go a few of them and
like are like like veterans as well. I think we're to see that.
So yeah, So to give you one good, good example, I spoke
to one gentleman who I've basically seen his well his entire regiment and be annihilated
in a in a war situation and clearly clearly had PTSD. And I after
he after he came back from that kind of conflict, he wasn't able to
reconcile the things that he saw immediately, couldn't hold down a regular job.
And then I rememberin sort of six months he was then engaging with services and
was rough sleeping. But because the trauma was so was so intense from that
experience, the main problem in his life really was his uncontrollable substance issues.
But that was that obviously wasn't the only cause. There'd been a real kind
of chronologically chronologically chronology very again a chronology to to to to that trauma.
But that but but because it's kind of hed been trying to self medicators that
were, you know, using their vary various substances that had become the main
kind of problem in in in his life. Yeah, so it's it's,
it's it's a it's a mixed bag, hever he is, it's it's it's
so it's so unique obviously to like every individual, sometimes they is just combine
in a really really tremendous or complex way. And I didn't. And it's
probably worth mentioning as well that from a societal point of view, we have
different ideas of what's considered vulnerable as well. Yeah, so you know,
so historically single men aren't considered vulnerable in the same way that a woman or
a child is, so that that also has an impact on on whether they
end up on the shoot as well, which which which could be a cause
in of itself. Yeah, I mean, sorry, just throw that question
straight at you. The reason that I asked that was because I want I
wanted to see if the factors that often need to homelessness were more specific for
men. So for example, you mentioned risk taking behavior. I'm thinking of
things like gambling, which we know males are more likely to get into than
females. I wondered, if you know the pressures of being the breadwinner,
the provider, that sort of crisis and masculinity. I wondered if if there
is definite gendered reasons that leads people to homelessness, if that, if that
question makes sense, it makes perfect sense. And I I mean I I
I the same question. I mean, yeah, that's that that's kind of
what put me down on this road, like originally because I I wondered,
I want the same thing, because like we we do see that in other
context, you know, especially like in in sort of like prison kind of
like populations as well. You seem some you see you see the same sorts
of presentations. Really so yeah, so in the kind of wholessness context,
well specifically rough sleeping, there is. Yeah, the the risk taking is
huge, it really really is. And yeah, you're absolutely right. For
for many of those men, they're there to kind of an initial you know,
a sort of an initial self medication. You know, whether you know,
you know, whether it is you know, alcohol or kind of like
whatever else. So in a lot of cases, if things have happened to
them and they've not and for whatever reason they've not, they've not got the
help they needed. And unfortunately, the the solutions that many men turn to,
which may be okay in the short term, obviously, the longer that
they're engaging in those those behaviors, the more mild adaptive that they tend to
become, and the anual and just red again they they just tend to kind
of compound further as well. Many of the men that I'd intervene spoke to
had been experiencing rough rough sleeping for for a very long time. There were
there were guys that I spoke to he'd been rough sleeping for decades, absolute
decades, and I'd almost been kind of institutionalized almost to those experiences. And
that kind of you know, is like that like inability of men to ask
for help doesn't go away, unfortunately, And you know, you would see
the same sorts of things, like you would assume that if if a man
is in a situation as horrendous as you know, persistent experiences of homelessness,
you would think that they would be more inclined to ask for help, but
that is not the case. It's not the case. You know. I
would have guys, you know, sort of like intentionally masking, you know,
downplaying, you know, like concealing how you know, like they're bad
injuries were you know, like I had one guy who his his thumb was
almost severed, you know, but was still giving me a hand moving to
some of the food into the kitchen, and I was just like, what
what are you doing. It's fine, it's it's no where, it's no
big deal, to the point of it being at times utterly absurd. But
when you were but when you realize that they've lost many of the conventional ways
that they might perform their masculinity. In many ways, they kind of because
as you rate some of the other areas where where they can still perform something.
Unfortunately, given the illusion of being resilient and tough and stoic's as often
one of the only ones that you know ways that they have left. It's
interesting, is it, because it seems to be coming from both sides,
because it's coming from the individual themselves as well. In hand, if society
is saying where you're a single man, so you're not vulnerable. That's going
to sort of play into that as well, isn't it. You mentioned that
word like hyper masculinity, so I can see how that happens. Yeah,
it's it's it's difficult to kind of it's a bit of a chicken and eg
scenario. Isn't it like to kind of unpick where the hyper masculine, where
the hyper masculinity is coming from, right, whether it's kind of the intensity
of the environment, or whether these individuals already have masculine and the kind of
going there. But my kind of guess is there's a there's a real strong
interaction between the two, you know. So yeah, so you know that,
you know, men are being told you in all sorts of subtle kind
of ways that you know, to be vulnerable is weakness, and that that
that doesn't just go away even when you you know, when you really need
the help. It's it's it's in you both explicitly and you know implicitly,
and you really have to It takes time to you know, well years.
I mean we're still doing it now, trying to unpick those harmful aspects to
our our you know, our gender identities, and you know, unfortunately,
when you're experiencing rough sleeping, you have other things on your mind other than
the you know, the intricacies of you know, gendered scripts and all sorts
of other business. Yeah, how could I ask you how you define hyper
masculinity? I know quite a few says you'll just use it, but how
do you use the term yourself? Oh right, okay, Yeah, So
for me, hypermasculinity is basically exaggerate, exaggerated tendencies of masculinity. Yeah,
so things like, yeah, so a willingness to use violence. A well,
they tend to have quite conservative viewpoints, so it's not always exclusively so,
but they can tend to be homophobic or sexists in some you know,
in some ways they see any sort of expression of emotion as a form of
vulnerability and something to really be suspicious of. There's kind of yeah, there's
a there's just a an emphasis on physical strength, you know, virility almost
in some cases. And you know, if not violence directly, at least
a willingness to use violence just to kind of like solve problems. But these
things are you know, complex. It's not as if, for example,
if you know, you can be hypermasculine within without being homophobic for example.
But it's it's it's more of like a tendency. You tend to see these
sorts of things in these sorts of presence. Yeah, but these things are
obviously nuanced, and you know, you often have men engaging with them in
quite like reflective ways. So they'll they'll kind of almost in like a pick
a mixed kind of thing. They'll pick and choose certain parts to this kind
of gender identity that they like and maybe reject others. And in your experience,
so is it is it kind of used as a defense mechanism you like
to you know, prison life, that you can't show weakness, you have
to defend yourself. Do you think it's being used in that way? Yeah,
So this is kind of what I wanted to know because in the prison
context it's really common and I wondered whether, well, I mean, it
was obviously a feature of that environment, right, So you know, so
if you're if you're in the if you're in the sort of prison space,
well more of a sort of high category prison, I think it's it's a
bit different in the therapeutic prisons, but when you're in those kind of partial
environments and violence is so prevalent you find that that's just you know, it's
it's really common for men to present in that way. And you know,
I mean, David Maguire writes loads on this, and he's far better this
than me. But these sort of sort of presentations, although they were yes,
problematic, and I'm not taken away from the native aspects of those within
that context, they seem to obviously be doing something, you know, and
you know, nothing is accidental. All, you know, all behavior is
a form of of of you know, communication, like it tends to serve
a purpose. So that's kind of why really that I sort of drew on
the on the prison literature. So within you know, within there is a
mode of of survival and within the kind of rough sleeping space, which is
kind of what my findings are kind of now getting to really as I'm kind
of going through them. It's quite comparable. It's it's it's very similar really
to kind of like a prison environment because in many ways as well, like
existing on the streets is quite similar to being in and it's the institution as
well, like there's a there's obviously the continual presence of violence there's limited resources.
You constantly be surveiled all the time, maybe not by prison officers,
by members and members of the of the public, but you are still a
site of suspicion at all times. And it's obviously overwhelmingly male. There's a
lot of comparisons to be to be sort of made there. And yes,
really, when you're when you're when you're on the streets and you have so
few material resources at your kind of like the like disposal, one of one
of the few things you have left is your ability to perform violence. Yes,
yeah, unfortunately, and also as well that you know where you are
often vulnerable in all sorts of ways, that you might have an all amount
of mental health crisis going on, you know, you might well you will
be suffering all sorts of physical problems as well. Showing that is also really
problematic as well. Yeah, so men and men were very very hesitant to
show any kind of problem that they that they might might be having. Yeah.
So, like if you're in a service, for example, and staff
are trying to help you know, you know, you know, say an
individual with the substance misuse problem, that they will not discuss that typically you
know, in kind of the common area, you know, like that staff
men would take them away to a private space and they have a very different
conversation there where they wouldn't feel the same need to perform or the front to
pinch a bit of Goffin's work there. So yeah, it's it's it's very
very similar. I think I'm probably the first to look at it in that
kind of space, but I will I will be making a lot of a
lot of direct comparisons because I would argue that they're very similar spaces. I
just wondered, Anon, if you could give us another example. You know,
you mentioned the guy with a seventh film? Was there another example that
sort of in your two years of research really stood out to you as sort
of a you know, an indictment of the stoicism of masculinity. Oh?
Absolutely, I mean, this is the thing with this type of research.
These these people stay with you, these stories, you know, these interviews,
they stay with you for years. They kind of live live rent free
in your head a little bit, not only because you're going through them all
their their transcripts, but they they're they're really impactful. But no, I
had one one, one fellow and he must have been I don't know,
in his fifties, and you know, he did. He didn't present as
what you might expect to someone who was a rough sleeper, who was you
know, I know its a bit of a stereotype, but I mean you're
like physically like in terms of you know, dress, you know, things
like that you probably wouldn't have been able to tell from the outside. So,
I know, struck up a conversation to see if I could help,
and we kind of got chatting, and he was telling me essentially that he'd
been rough rough sleeping for a couple of years, and he'd been going from
essentially town to town, so he'd he'd go from one city or town,
goes to the service there for for a few weeks and then and then move
on. So trying to sort of dig deep a little bit, and you
know as to why, you know, why can't you know, engage your
services here and you know, get some help and stuff and what and what
had happened is he's basically suffered a kind of a relationship breakdown. So his
wife had left him, and as a as a result, his kind of
his daughter had kind of blamed him for the kind of the kind of family
kind of breaking down and this was just too much of him to bear this,
this this was just too too difficult. So the kind of the loss
of his of his relationship with with his daughter really just caused a bit of
an exidential crisis, and and that's really what pushed him. I think after
that he lost everything he just held, couldn't go. But what really struck
me about it, and what really kind of links into the work I'm doing,
really is that he didn't know how to phone her. He had a
number, he knew, he knew where where she was, and he didn't
know how to emotionally get past that. He didn't know how to have He
didn't have the language to be able to have that conversation, you know,
to be able to tell her what he was experiencing and what he was going
through. And he'd been through some awful things, let me tell you,
and he just wasn't able to have that. He wasn't emotionally literate enough,
and a lot of men aren't to have this conversations. But he had a
phone, and he always made sure this phone was charged. And the only
reason he had that phone was for the off chance that wonder she might phone
him and he'd been waiting almost two years for that phone call. That is
absolutely heartbreaking. And you know, I can still I can still see him
now and as I say, it stays there with you. It really really
does. Now, if he was just just a little bit more, you
know, aware of of his feelings, and I suppose had that I don't
know, skill set. I guess that you know that that that that men
often struggle with to be able to just just say how he felt and you
know, just just have and just be vulnerable with his daughter. I have
no doubt he could have reconnected, but he just couldn't. Just couldn't.
And you know he could he could be doing that for another ten years.
Yeah, what what do you think was the mental obstacle for him? There?
Is it? I just wonder. I bet, I bet so many
times you picked up the phone, put the number in, or typed out
a message and deleted it. You know, I bet that happened time and
time again. I just had what was what was the final blocker to get
him over the top. I think for him it was the fact that he
that he saw himself as a failure, that he failed to prevent the breakup
of his marriage. He failed to prevent the loss of loss of their family
home, and just because I think he was the breadwinner at that time,
he just he just blamed himself I think really for for for the loss of
everything, and he couldn't Yeah, he just couldn't cope with that, even
even though I don't think that that any of that blame was fair and the
and these things do do just happen. Yeah, there was a lost,
lost, loss of control and shame, which is that you know, we
see huge amounts of shame with men, with men like this. Yeah,
yeah, I can imagine that is quite a common theme. Certainly, thank
you for sharing that story. That's not totally Do you mind telling us where
you're up to at the moment and when we when we can start to read
a little bit more about this. No, that's fine, that's fine.
So I'm part time. So I'm on year five now, So I've just
I've just entered my right up yere. So I finished my field with last
year and I'm I'm just at the stage now of kind of starting to write
up hopefully my my you know, in my findings into something that's quite I
have I hope that will be quite impactful and we'll be able to kind of
make a real difference really to the to the to the sort of services on
the sort of front line. They don't they don't tend to have much of
what you might might call a gendered approach. So I'm trying to really kind
of improve that really at the kind of like provision level. That's that that's
the kind of that's where my findings aimed at right now. So I work
quite closely with the services because I'm trying to really kind of work with services,
I mean not not not just homeless services, but like potentially others that
come into contact with people who experience it homeless, just like the police,
to really kind of provide that insight into how these these presentations, you know,
how how this behavior presents and what what this behavior is and just as
importantly where this behavior is coming from as well. Thank you, Thank you.
And if people want to find out a little bit more or get in
touch with you, do you want to give out some details? And yeah,
I am on LinkedIn, so it's just a Anton Roberts. I'm on
there. I'm always open to you know, a chat, so feel free
to email me. That's a dot Roberts at MM, you do act at
UK and I am on Twitter as well, which is social underscore nomad,
although I can't actually get into it right now because Musk blocked me, but
I am working on that. Yeah, but any any of those are absolutely
fine. Always happy to have a chat. Brilliant. Well, thank you
very much for your time today, Anton, really really do appreciate it.
Fantastic problem. It's a pleasure. Thank you, Thank you. The Sociology
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