WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.320 --> 00:00:03.799 Hello, and welcome to the Sociology Show podcast. Before we get stuck into 2 00:00:03.919 --> 00:00:06.919 the interview for this episode, just a couple of messages for you. So 3 00:00:07.040 --> 00:00:11.599 firstly, if you are student listening, the Sociology Show podcast now offers online 4 00:00:11.640 --> 00:00:15.599 tutoring. So whether you want a single lesson or maybe a block of lessons, 5 00:00:15.640 --> 00:00:18.559 maybe you've got a big exam coming up, then you can book a 6 00:00:18.640 --> 00:00:22.640 one hour, a one hour thirty or a two hour slot. 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Perhaps when you have a teacher training day or an inset day for 17 00:01:03.600 --> 00:01:07.319 example. So if you're interested and you'd like some help, you'd like some 18 00:01:07.359 --> 00:01:11.719 advice, then please do email The Sociology Show podcast at gmail dot com. 19 00:01:11.840 --> 00:01:15.799 Thank you very much for listening. Let's go over to the interview. Hi. 20 00:01:17.200 --> 00:01:21.719 You're listening to The Sociology Show, a podcast about absolutely anything to do 21 00:01:22.079 --> 00:01:26.879 with the wonderful world of sociology. Whether you're a teacher, a lecturer, 22 00:01:26.040 --> 00:01:30.959 a student, or just taking a passing interest. This podcast will look at 23 00:01:30.959 --> 00:01:36.200 a range of issues from social class, ethnicity, gender, sexuality, religion, 24 00:01:36.519 --> 00:01:42.760 crime, education, and anything else that sociology has to offer. My 25 00:01:42.840 --> 00:01:46.200 name is Matthew Wilkin. In each episode, I will speak to someone working 26 00:01:46.239 --> 00:01:49.920 in the field of sociology and let them explain all about their own interests, 27 00:01:49.120 --> 00:01:55.359 their research, and their experiences. So put your ear votes in, turn 28 00:01:55.400 --> 00:02:02.280 the volume up, and let's be sociology geeks together. A Hello and welcome 29 00:02:02.280 --> 00:02:06.319 to The Sociology Show podcast. Would you like to start by telling us a 30 00:02:06.319 --> 00:02:08.400 little bit about who you are and what you do? Please, no problem, 31 00:02:08.479 --> 00:02:12.439 Thanks for having me on the show. Really appreciate it. My name 32 00:02:12.520 --> 00:02:17.439 is Anton Roberts and I am a kind of social policy kind of researcher, 33 00:02:17.439 --> 00:02:23.960 I would say, in the area of sociology and criminology. So I am 34 00:02:24.000 --> 00:02:29.159 a PhD researcher at i MMU, and I also work for PROUGH, the 35 00:02:29.439 --> 00:02:34.240 Policy Evaluation and Research Unit as well. Great, thank you very much, 36 00:02:34.560 --> 00:02:38.319 and we're going to talk about your research, which is on homelessness, gender 37 00:02:38.360 --> 00:02:40.400 and homelessness, but a little bit more all about it for us. Yeah. 38 00:02:40.479 --> 00:02:46.879 Yeah, So the official title is a Mixed Method Study into the Gender 39 00:02:46.960 --> 00:02:54.680 Nature of Homeless Communities. So essentially, I'm kind of exploring both the kind 40 00:02:54.719 --> 00:03:00.039 of presentations that you tend to see in those kinds of populations from from a 41 00:03:00.039 --> 00:03:07.080 gender point of view, and I'm also kind of exploring the social capital elements 42 00:03:07.080 --> 00:03:14.000 as well, so you know, the sort of social resources that do or 43 00:03:14.000 --> 00:03:19.000 do not exist in in arguably quite hostile environments. And that's kind of you 44 00:03:19.080 --> 00:03:23.159 know, in a nutshell or would you like more? No, Yeah, 45 00:03:23.639 --> 00:03:27.840 I can go all day, Matthew. I'm could have started right from the 46 00:03:27.840 --> 00:03:30.800 beginning, because I think people are probably aware that that homelessness is you know, 47 00:03:30.919 --> 00:03:35.039 majority male. What sort of percentage you were talking about, what ways 48 00:03:35.080 --> 00:03:38.199 the breakdown of male to female. Oh right, okay, So if and 49 00:03:38.240 --> 00:03:43.719 again it's always gets a little bit tricky because there are types different types of 50 00:03:43.879 --> 00:03:51.000 homelessness. So if if if, if you're talking about visible for forms of 51 00:03:51.039 --> 00:03:53.240 homelessness, which is what I look at, So I look at kind of 52 00:03:53.280 --> 00:03:59.520 street street based, rough sleeping kind of form for homelessness, we're with that. 53 00:03:59.639 --> 00:04:03.479 It's over while willly male, I mean really sort of ninety percent that's 54 00:04:03.560 --> 00:04:06.840 yeah, that's that, that's typical. It's like sexually, I mean it's 55 00:04:06.840 --> 00:04:11.120 a little bit more common now, but it's it's it's really rare generally to 56 00:04:11.159 --> 00:04:15.279 see a woman in a in a in a service in that way. And 57 00:04:15.319 --> 00:04:20.959 if they are, they're never alone, usually with a male. If if 58 00:04:21.040 --> 00:04:27.319 you're talking more hidden homelessness as as we would talk about it in the literature, 59 00:04:27.560 --> 00:04:30.759 that is I think decidedly more female. But the problem with that is 60 00:04:30.800 --> 00:04:34.240 obviously the numbers trying to trying to capture that is incredibly difficult because you know 61 00:04:34.279 --> 00:04:39.560 that they might be in in sort of very difficult home kind of like like 62 00:04:39.639 --> 00:04:44.120 domestic violence situations which you know, we we we just wouldn't know unless they 63 00:04:44.240 --> 00:04:46.680 and if they unless they had an involvement in service, or they might be 64 00:04:46.160 --> 00:04:50.240 in some type of you know, shelter sort of type of thing, like 65 00:04:50.279 --> 00:04:55.079 you know, for maybe nothing for women who are fleeing domestic violence. So 66 00:04:55.120 --> 00:04:59.040 that it's it's actually really really really difficult for us, for me, or 67 00:04:59.079 --> 00:05:01.079 any of us really as a a homelessness researcher to give you an idea of 68 00:05:01.120 --> 00:05:05.040 how large the hiding homelessess population is in the UK. I really couldn't tell 69 00:05:05.079 --> 00:05:09.720 you. I wish I could, but yeah, and your research does it 70 00:05:09.759 --> 00:05:12.839 take place in Manchester? I know that's where where you're based. Yeah, 71 00:05:12.959 --> 00:05:18.800 yeah, yeah, So mine was a primarily ethnographic over sort of the two 72 00:05:18.879 --> 00:05:24.560 year period. So I did it. I did it across three three sites 73 00:05:24.600 --> 00:05:30.639 in Manchester, so I was I was based in like three homelessness services that 74 00:05:30.879 --> 00:05:38.680 cater to sort of street sleeping homeless primarily. I would say I'd probably know 75 00:05:38.720 --> 00:05:41.519 the answer to this because it's obviously a major city. But how how bad 76 00:05:41.639 --> 00:05:44.920 is the issue in Manchester? I mean, I'm based in Brighton. We've 77 00:05:44.959 --> 00:05:47.879 got a big homeless problem here, and I just wondered how Manchester compares to 78 00:05:47.959 --> 00:05:55.199 say the capital for example. Yeah, nowhe's worse than London obviously, but 79 00:05:55.319 --> 00:06:00.040 I would say Manchester's probably probably second on that unfortun that list, I would 80 00:06:00.040 --> 00:06:04.199 say, and we we we we do a large, a large problem here. 81 00:06:05.199 --> 00:06:09.839 If you're talking about, you know, from the point of view of 82 00:06:09.839 --> 00:06:14.079 of of like going to a council and say, you know, I need 83 00:06:14.480 --> 00:06:15.519 you know, assistance, please help sort of this sort of thing, and 84 00:06:15.560 --> 00:06:18.920 you know where you would have like an assessment from a local authority that kind 85 00:06:18.959 --> 00:06:24.360 of shifts between one hundred two hundred thousand kind of you know kind of thing. 86 00:06:24.360 --> 00:06:26.959 But that obviously doesn't mean that they'll get help. That's just where there's 87 00:06:27.079 --> 00:06:33.439 there's an assessment going on basically that that that that happen kind of counts. 88 00:06:33.519 --> 00:06:38.399 You know, it's usually kind of place sort of like a couple of hundred 89 00:06:38.600 --> 00:06:42.240 kind of kind of ballpack figure in terms of like rough sleeping. But again, 90 00:06:43.160 --> 00:06:45.759 if you were to speak to the services there, they would all say 91 00:06:45.759 --> 00:06:48.560 that that there's far more than that, because most most of these guys will 92 00:06:49.040 --> 00:06:53.519 avoid, you know, people from the council, like the plague. So 93 00:06:54.000 --> 00:06:55.879 you know, if they're they're going around going oh, you know there's a 94 00:06:55.879 --> 00:07:00.160 guy there's you know, they they they won't won't be there. So when 95 00:07:00.199 --> 00:07:03.800 I was all, well, all the services I was I was at, 96 00:07:04.079 --> 00:07:09.480 you would see you know, seventy you know, sort of one hundred plus 97 00:07:09.480 --> 00:07:13.680 in one day, you know, and some of those where sort of like 98 00:07:13.720 --> 00:07:16.439 return to service users, but many of them went, many of them went. 99 00:07:17.000 --> 00:07:21.560 So yeah, I suspect it's always it's always a larger problem than we're 100 00:07:21.560 --> 00:07:27.279 aware of. Usually it's a particular hotspots in the city center as well. 101 00:07:29.120 --> 00:07:32.439 Oh yeah, good question. So yeah, so it's a bit of a 102 00:07:32.560 --> 00:07:38.120 it's a tough one, so yes, but it's also so much more contested. 103 00:07:38.560 --> 00:07:43.360 So obviously they get that there's there's increased footfall, right, So generally, 104 00:07:43.439 --> 00:07:47.399 yes, then that there is more more people experiencing homelessness there, but 105 00:07:47.519 --> 00:07:51.639 there's all but there's also much more restrictions in terms of where they where they 106 00:07:51.680 --> 00:07:55.800 can can't go. So you know, so we have things like pspos like 107 00:07:55.839 --> 00:08:01.519 Public Space protection or just for example that kind of criminalize lots of well quite 108 00:08:01.600 --> 00:08:05.959 ordinary behavior really like drinking. You know, like if if if if you're 109 00:08:07.000 --> 00:08:09.000 a student, say on a Friday, having a drink, that's that's usually 110 00:08:09.040 --> 00:08:13.800 not a problem. But if you're if you're unfortunately someone who's homeless and you're 111 00:08:13.800 --> 00:08:16.120 doing the same thing, then it allows councils to criminalize in that way. 112 00:08:16.199 --> 00:08:18.920 So we have we have, we have a lot of those in operation so 113 00:08:18.920 --> 00:08:22.759 so so yes, there is more of them, but they're also regularly moved 114 00:08:22.800 --> 00:08:26.240 on and it's quite a struggle for them to exist in those spaces often. 115 00:08:28.199 --> 00:08:31.360 That makes sense. Yeah, that's useful. So let's get stuck into before 116 00:08:31.360 --> 00:08:35.759 we sort of find learn a little bit more about your findings. You mentioned 117 00:08:35.759 --> 00:08:39.120 about how you did your research, so a couple of years ethnographic research. 118 00:08:39.159 --> 00:08:41.519 Do you want to say a little bit more about sort of your methodology if 119 00:08:41.559 --> 00:08:46.080 you like, Yeah, absolutely so mine's Mine's a mixed method study. So 120 00:08:46.279 --> 00:08:50.639 I kind of drew on a couple of different pieces. My main bulk is 121 00:08:50.960 --> 00:08:56.639 ethnographic, just just because that's what I've loved the most, even before I 122 00:08:56.679 --> 00:08:58.559 was involved in research. I think is really the only way that you can 123 00:08:58.639 --> 00:09:03.559 really understand the social context is by immersing yourself in it. You know. 124 00:09:03.440 --> 00:09:07.519 I was very kind of influenced by the kind of earlier like Margaret Meade, 125 00:09:07.639 --> 00:09:11.000 kind of more anthropological kind of work, and I was loved idea of immersing 126 00:09:11.000 --> 00:09:16.000 myself and basing myself there so that so that was the I suppose the largest 127 00:09:16.399 --> 00:09:22.159 element where I would use a version of ethnography called at home ethnography. So 128 00:09:22.200 --> 00:09:28.879 that's where you where you actually imbed yourself within the organization. So you know, 129 00:09:28.159 --> 00:09:31.600 with sort of like traditional hardcore, you know, you would sort of 130 00:09:31.679 --> 00:09:35.279 be a fly in the war, right, you wouldn't be involved in it 131 00:09:35.080 --> 00:09:39.360 in any way, but there are there are there are those that argue that 132 00:09:39.480 --> 00:09:43.960 really to really know the kind of the language and and really what's going on 133 00:09:43.039 --> 00:09:46.120 there, you really have to have a more more sort of skin in the 134 00:09:46.159 --> 00:09:50.960 game, as it were. So I was a volunteer in all these places, 135 00:09:52.000 --> 00:09:56.480 so I was not just having informal conversations. I was actually helping the 136 00:09:56.559 --> 00:10:00.360 service users in the same way that after a while the staff. And it 137 00:10:00.360 --> 00:10:03.960 also gave me a really interesting insight into the service tensions as well as the 138 00:10:05.879 --> 00:10:07.639 members of staff as well and their struggles in a way that I wouldn't have 139 00:10:07.639 --> 00:10:11.720 been able to see if I was just on the kind of periphery as it 140 00:10:11.759 --> 00:10:15.679 were, not that I sort of had a side any of this. Really 141 00:10:16.039 --> 00:10:18.799 I was as open as possible, so that so that was kind of my 142 00:10:18.759 --> 00:10:24.559 main part, and I also did some more conventional in depth interviews as well 143 00:10:24.799 --> 00:10:31.000 with obviously with individuals as I as I kind of got to know them, 144 00:10:31.399 --> 00:10:37.600 and I use something called SNA. SNA is something called social network analysis, 145 00:10:37.720 --> 00:10:43.159 so that's where in the individual's name, their their their connections, so that 146 00:10:43.200 --> 00:10:46.240 there's a couple of different variations, but I was using it, I was 147 00:10:46.240 --> 00:10:48.559 trying to use it, and it's not really been done that way before. 148 00:10:48.440 --> 00:10:52.240 I'm trying to use it quite a qualitative way to really kind of tell a 149 00:10:52.360 --> 00:10:58.279 story of social devastation really for want of a better word. So it kind 150 00:10:58.279 --> 00:11:07.600 of entails participants essentially giving all their all their connections in the in their social 151 00:11:07.639 --> 00:11:11.200 networks and specifically what they're getting from those from from those connections as well, 152 00:11:11.639 --> 00:11:15.679 and just I'm just like, like the nature of those nature and the type 153 00:11:15.679 --> 00:11:20.000 of bonds that that they kind of have, which I'm which I'm trying to 154 00:11:20.039 --> 00:11:24.879 now as I'm currently writing up, tie all this together so in theory it 155 00:11:24.919 --> 00:11:28.159 will be a consistent narrative as it were, right that I'm able to back 156 00:11:28.240 --> 00:11:33.440 up with something that's that's kind of partially quantitative but mostly qualitative. I think 157 00:11:33.600 --> 00:11:37.639 I think it allows for in in you know, an unusual perspective and quite 158 00:11:37.679 --> 00:11:43.240 insightful, and I hope and you mentioned always being open volunteering there, so 159 00:11:43.639 --> 00:11:46.320 whether people always aware that you are a research yourself, you're quite quite open 160 00:11:46.320 --> 00:11:50.679 getting the content in that respect. Yeah, so yeah, so this is 161 00:11:50.679 --> 00:11:54.320 always are always a controversial subject, right as the as the blurring of boundaries 162 00:11:54.320 --> 00:12:00.279 and how far you go. So I think you can. I think you 163 00:12:00.279 --> 00:12:03.919 can only really figure stuff like that out in the field, if I mean 164 00:12:03.960 --> 00:12:05.639 totally honest, you can. You can always have, you know, a 165 00:12:05.720 --> 00:12:09.519 rough idea of how you of how how forthcoming you're going to be, but 166 00:12:09.559 --> 00:12:13.200 you're never really going to know until you're in that situation and what works and 167 00:12:13.240 --> 00:12:18.039 what doesn't. So I did I did have a more general plan of being 168 00:12:18.080 --> 00:12:22.399 as kind of I don't know how i'd say it. You know, i'd 169 00:12:22.440 --> 00:12:26.720 be a bit more formal and empirical, and you know, I'm this you 170 00:12:26.759 --> 00:12:31.799 know, impartial researcher with no feelings. You know, this this mindless automenton. 171 00:12:31.000 --> 00:12:33.840 But obviously that's not that's not reality and that's not who we are. 172 00:12:35.960 --> 00:12:41.559 So I kind of had to kind of like develop that and and I suppose 173 00:12:41.600 --> 00:12:46.279 it became a I think what's talked about in the literature as a strategic undressing. 174 00:12:46.919 --> 00:12:50.639 So you so, yeah, so so you share to an extent that 175 00:12:52.200 --> 00:12:58.519 improves the rapport, the level of data collection, you know, the kind 176 00:12:58.519 --> 00:13:03.720 of the well that engenders trust, you know, things like that, right, 177 00:13:05.320 --> 00:13:09.960 And I would kind of allow the participants to really kind of take the 178 00:13:09.039 --> 00:13:13.120 lead in that. So to give you an example, one when I was 179 00:13:13.159 --> 00:13:18.440 doing one of one of my interviews, one of my participants was obviously talking 180 00:13:18.440 --> 00:13:24.360 about how difficult some of the mental health sort of like related strains where of 181 00:13:24.559 --> 00:13:28.600 having an experience of homelessness, and there was a there was a there was 182 00:13:28.600 --> 00:13:31.840 a bit of a bit a bit of a discussion around therapy and and you 183 00:13:31.879 --> 00:13:35.360 know, I could tell that they wanted to say more, but they were 184 00:13:35.399 --> 00:13:39.240 they were self conscious because obviously it's a male speaking to another male, which 185 00:13:39.240 --> 00:13:43.600 is which is also as also elevant. So I made the Madia decision then 186 00:13:43.600 --> 00:13:48.720 to the to the disclose that I had years ago done therapy in myself and 187 00:13:48.799 --> 00:13:52.000 found it really useful. And you know that that that that that there was 188 00:13:52.039 --> 00:13:56.879 no no shame in doing that, and by disclosing that it then empowers that 189 00:13:56.919 --> 00:13:58.759 person to be able to talk about some of their experience of men's health. 190 00:14:00.120 --> 00:14:03.360 Now I could have gone further than that and obviously spoke about my actual experiences 191 00:14:03.360 --> 00:14:07.879 in detail, but obviously I felt that would have been inappropriate obviously. So 192 00:14:07.919 --> 00:14:09.840 there, so there there is that line there of like how of exactly how 193 00:14:09.919 --> 00:14:16.480 much you share as well. So I was very kind of intentional about that, 194 00:14:16.519 --> 00:14:18.120 like is this is this going to help them? Obviously? Is this 195 00:14:18.159 --> 00:14:24.919 going to be inappropriate? It was? It was. It was an ongoing 196 00:14:24.080 --> 00:14:28.799 tension and one that we almost navigate as ethogo research. And I wish I 197 00:14:28.799 --> 00:14:31.399 could say there was a cut and fast rule for that, but there really 198 00:14:31.440 --> 00:14:35.159 isn't. So it you know, in terms of my kind of how I 199 00:14:35.240 --> 00:14:39.399 declared myself, that's that. Yeah, that's that's an interesting one. I 200 00:14:39.440 --> 00:14:43.440 think at first I was I was I was too honest, I was too 201 00:14:43.679 --> 00:14:48.559 I was too kind of transparent, and the fact that I was a you 202 00:14:48.600 --> 00:14:52.879 know, a researcher on homelessness and many of them found a little a little 203 00:14:52.919 --> 00:14:58.679 bit intimidating and off putting, and it became a little bit of a barrier 204 00:14:58.720 --> 00:15:03.320 for me actually, like connecting with service users and staff as well, because 205 00:15:03.360 --> 00:15:07.559 there was this weird thing where sometimes staff can see it was a little bit 206 00:15:07.600 --> 00:15:09.480 like as a bit of an unknown commodity and they think, well, what's 207 00:15:09.559 --> 00:15:13.720 what what what's this person doing here? Like what's their intention type thing? 208 00:15:13.279 --> 00:15:18.039 So I kind of dialed it back a little bit and was honest, but 209 00:15:18.399 --> 00:15:20.200 I wouldn't darrelge too much, so you know, I would just say, 210 00:15:20.679 --> 00:15:24.039 you know, I may, yeah, I'm a researcher, you know, 211 00:15:24.080 --> 00:15:26.399 with an interest in homelessness, which which obviously is true. And then if 212 00:15:26.720 --> 00:15:30.279 if if they had more of an interest and they wanted to know, then 213 00:15:30.679 --> 00:15:33.639 then I would obviously tell them, But again I would allow them in a 214 00:15:33.720 --> 00:15:39.399 much more organic way to kind of tell me how much they wanted to know. 215 00:15:39.480 --> 00:15:43.320 If obviously, if I was interviewing them, they obviously there's a full 216 00:15:43.320 --> 00:15:46.559 consent and disclosure all and all those things, but in a kind of day 217 00:15:46.600 --> 00:15:50.080 to day kind of being there, that's kind of why how I would tend 218 00:15:50.120 --> 00:15:54.399 to approach it. Yes, And I'm just thinking skipping ahead just slightly for 219 00:15:54.440 --> 00:15:56.720 a moment as well, do you do you keep anonymity when you come to 220 00:15:56.799 --> 00:16:07.320 write up your findings or is it again that to them for because obviously well 221 00:16:07.360 --> 00:16:10.080 as you will know we all have to go through you know, board committee 222 00:16:10.279 --> 00:16:15.039 ethical board committees, and that can be quite prohibitive at times, especially when 223 00:16:15.080 --> 00:16:22.039 you're working with such a profoundly traumatized, you know, sort of complex group. 224 00:16:22.080 --> 00:16:26.039 And I'm on the sort of extreme measures of that as well, because 225 00:16:26.039 --> 00:16:29.799 I'm looking at rough sleeping. So they tend to have, you know, 226 00:16:30.240 --> 00:16:33.000 all the worst things imaginable that can happen to a person has happened to them. 227 00:16:33.360 --> 00:16:37.879 So as much as I would like to, because originally I kind of 228 00:16:37.919 --> 00:16:42.720 wanted to have them almost as named authors, almost you know, because I'm 229 00:16:42.799 --> 00:16:47.440 very much into ideas of sort of like co ownership of like co production and 230 00:16:47.919 --> 00:16:53.639 things like that. But for their own safety, yeah, I really have 231 00:16:53.720 --> 00:16:59.519 to anonymous obviously, like they will be thanked and there's there's a discussion there 232 00:16:59.559 --> 00:17:03.159 around you know, maybe I can use the first name. I also will 233 00:17:03.200 --> 00:17:06.640 be in contact with them in terms obviously of you're sharing all the insights and 234 00:17:06.640 --> 00:17:11.400 and and results with them, but there's also increased risk with the type of 235 00:17:11.440 --> 00:17:15.559 method that I'm using, so because I'm essentially not only into interview them but 236 00:17:15.640 --> 00:17:18.200 about their ideas of you know, gender and things like that. But I'm 237 00:17:18.200 --> 00:17:23.720 also capturing their entire social world. So so that's actually quite easy to identify 238 00:17:23.759 --> 00:17:27.559 if you already know them as well. So I so, you know, 239 00:17:29.000 --> 00:17:33.200 especially since I'm kind of representing that visually, that that there is a real 240 00:17:33.279 --> 00:17:36.799 risk there that if I'm not careful, I might I might expose I might 241 00:17:37.039 --> 00:17:41.119 expose who who they are. And when you think about the kind of prevalence 242 00:17:41.160 --> 00:17:44.200 of violence and that in their world as well overwhelming as a victim, of 243 00:17:44.200 --> 00:17:48.200 course, then that's a that's a real difficult one for me. So yeah, 244 00:17:48.359 --> 00:17:52.559 yeah, yeah, that's really difficult, isn't it to get that balance? 245 00:17:52.640 --> 00:17:56.480 Right? Okay, should we get should we get stuck into some of 246 00:17:55.960 --> 00:18:02.960 the findings then? So, is there a common kind of theme that runs 247 00:18:02.960 --> 00:18:04.839 through a lot of people's stories in terms of how they've ended up on the 248 00:18:04.839 --> 00:18:07.920 streets? So I just wonder if there's you know, this is just my 249 00:18:08.000 --> 00:18:11.720 outsider looking in, but I often assume that it's linked to some sort of 250 00:18:11.799 --> 00:18:15.799 addiction, you know, a drug addiction, now cold addiction that comes first. 251 00:18:17.000 --> 00:18:22.079 Is there a common link there? Yeah, just start off with a 252 00:18:22.119 --> 00:18:26.319 nice and easy one. Yeah, yeah, exactly that straight in there, 253 00:18:27.559 --> 00:18:36.000 Okay, Yeah, the causes of homelessness. So I mean we can we 254 00:18:36.039 --> 00:18:38.039 can talk at a little bit about the litter. That's helpful first, just 255 00:18:38.039 --> 00:18:42.599 because we tend to so I think it was Fitzpatcha that talks about this, 256 00:18:42.680 --> 00:18:51.039 but we tend to think about kind of roots in and out of homelessness. 257 00:18:51.759 --> 00:18:56.160 So although obviously everyone is an individual and there are individual circumstances, there are 258 00:18:56.279 --> 00:19:03.960 certainly kind of common routes that that we see coming you know, through that, 259 00:19:03.039 --> 00:19:07.119 with that, with that, with that that we will see you time 260 00:19:07.160 --> 00:19:11.640 and time again, and and and sort of certain sets of or triggers and 261 00:19:11.799 --> 00:19:18.279 risk risk factors and things like that. So speaking very very broadly, you 262 00:19:18.319 --> 00:19:22.680 will often see eight year the presence of a CES, you know, adverse 263 00:19:22.759 --> 00:19:29.480 childhood experiences. That's that's that's really common. There will be a lot of 264 00:19:29.480 --> 00:19:32.799 cases. There'll be care leaders as well, see a lot of that. 265 00:19:34.319 --> 00:19:40.279 Often it's most often the kind of substances and misuse. Well, at least 266 00:19:40.279 --> 00:19:45.839 in my experience as well, is it is it is often later as they've 267 00:19:45.920 --> 00:19:51.000 kind of been trying to cope and kind of you know, mediate for things 268 00:19:51.000 --> 00:19:53.559 that may that that may have happened to them. I'm obviously acknowledging that I'm 269 00:19:53.559 --> 00:20:00.640 slightly biased in terms of my population is male and roughly them mostly, So 270 00:20:00.839 --> 00:20:07.839 these are these things can kind of combine early on and obviously like men and 271 00:20:07.880 --> 00:20:10.480 many of them as well. To be honest, we'll we'll we'll talk about 272 00:20:11.880 --> 00:20:18.200 you know, experiences of abuse and trauma at various stages. If they are 273 00:20:18.400 --> 00:20:21.799 as well, you think you'll notice, well like if you if you're a 274 00:20:21.799 --> 00:20:26.440 woman, for example, that there's obviously differences there in your in your in 275 00:20:26.480 --> 00:20:30.599 your experience, so those syst there might be some some some violence my partner 276 00:20:30.599 --> 00:20:33.359 as well, not that not that that's that that's exclusive to uh, you 277 00:20:33.440 --> 00:20:37.920 know, two women. So yeah, those are those are kind of the 278 00:20:37.319 --> 00:20:44.680 kind of earlier ones and then being a bit more a bit more specific in 279 00:20:44.720 --> 00:20:48.119 my case, there's there's a couple of things. So if you're if you're 280 00:20:48.200 --> 00:20:53.440 if you're experiencing rough rough rough sleeping as well, the longer that you're in 281 00:20:53.480 --> 00:20:59.160 that environment for the more of these kind of experiences, these risk factors you're 282 00:20:59.200 --> 00:21:02.720 picking up. Yeah, so you know, your your health is the is 283 00:21:02.759 --> 00:21:04.920 the is the tear rating, you know, you're you're you're you're having men 284 00:21:06.079 --> 00:21:11.400 mental health crisis, you know, multiple a lot often the case, and 285 00:21:11.440 --> 00:21:15.839 there's a real sense in which these things build on top of each other and 286 00:21:15.839 --> 00:21:19.759 and just compound. So it's it's really difficult to pick out, you know, 287 00:21:19.799 --> 00:21:23.759 any one a lot of cases, one is primary, you know, 288 00:21:23.880 --> 00:21:27.359 I would say, or one or one has become you know, you know, 289 00:21:27.359 --> 00:21:30.839 you're more more dominant. So there's a lot of with a lot of 290 00:21:30.880 --> 00:21:34.240 the men that I that I speak to, go a few of them and 291 00:21:34.359 --> 00:21:41.319 like are like like veterans as well. I think we're to see that. 292 00:21:41.000 --> 00:21:45.599 So yeah, So to give you one good, good example, I spoke 293 00:21:45.640 --> 00:21:51.960 to one gentleman who I've basically seen his well his entire regiment and be annihilated 294 00:21:52.240 --> 00:22:00.200 in a in a war situation and clearly clearly had PTSD. And I after 295 00:22:00.200 --> 00:22:03.119 he after he came back from that kind of conflict, he wasn't able to 296 00:22:03.200 --> 00:22:07.720 reconcile the things that he saw immediately, couldn't hold down a regular job. 297 00:22:08.480 --> 00:22:14.559 And then I rememberin sort of six months he was then engaging with services and 298 00:22:14.759 --> 00:22:18.119 was rough sleeping. But because the trauma was so was so intense from that 299 00:22:18.200 --> 00:22:23.359 experience, the main problem in his life really was his uncontrollable substance issues. 300 00:22:25.279 --> 00:22:27.000 But that was that obviously wasn't the only cause. There'd been a real kind 301 00:22:27.039 --> 00:22:36.160 of chronologically chronologically chronology very again a chronology to to to to that trauma. 302 00:22:36.400 --> 00:22:38.599 But that but but because it's kind of hed been trying to self medicators that 303 00:22:38.640 --> 00:22:45.880 were, you know, using their vary various substances that had become the main 304 00:22:45.279 --> 00:22:51.680 kind of problem in in in his life. Yeah, so it's it's, 305 00:22:51.720 --> 00:22:55.519 it's it's a it's a mixed bag, hever he is, it's it's it's 306 00:22:55.559 --> 00:23:00.559 so it's so unique obviously to like every individual, sometimes they is just combine 307 00:23:00.680 --> 00:23:06.400 in a really really tremendous or complex way. And I didn't. And it's 308 00:23:06.400 --> 00:23:10.960 probably worth mentioning as well that from a societal point of view, we have 309 00:23:11.000 --> 00:23:15.200 different ideas of what's considered vulnerable as well. Yeah, so you know, 310 00:23:15.279 --> 00:23:21.440 so historically single men aren't considered vulnerable in the same way that a woman or 311 00:23:21.480 --> 00:23:25.519 a child is, so that that also has an impact on on whether they 312 00:23:25.599 --> 00:23:26.839 end up on the shoot as well, which which which could be a cause 313 00:23:27.000 --> 00:23:30.400 in of itself. Yeah, I mean, sorry, just throw that question 314 00:23:30.440 --> 00:23:33.960 straight at you. The reason that I asked that was because I want I 315 00:23:34.000 --> 00:23:40.960 wanted to see if the factors that often need to homelessness were more specific for 316 00:23:41.680 --> 00:23:45.200 men. So for example, you mentioned risk taking behavior. I'm thinking of 317 00:23:45.279 --> 00:23:48.079 things like gambling, which we know males are more likely to get into than 318 00:23:48.119 --> 00:23:52.640 females. I wondered, if you know the pressures of being the breadwinner, 319 00:23:52.680 --> 00:23:56.759 the provider, that sort of crisis and masculinity. I wondered if if there 320 00:23:56.799 --> 00:24:00.839 is definite gendered reasons that leads people to homelessness, if that, if that 321 00:24:00.920 --> 00:24:04.799 question makes sense, it makes perfect sense. And I I mean I I 322 00:24:04.799 --> 00:24:08.359 I the same question. I mean, yeah, that's that that's kind of 323 00:24:08.359 --> 00:24:15.880 what put me down on this road, like originally because I I wondered, 324 00:24:15.960 --> 00:24:18.039 I want the same thing, because like we we do see that in other 325 00:24:18.119 --> 00:24:22.599 context, you know, especially like in in sort of like prison kind of 326 00:24:22.599 --> 00:24:27.319 like populations as well. You seem some you see you see the same sorts 327 00:24:27.359 --> 00:24:33.799 of presentations. Really so yeah, so in the kind of wholessness context, 328 00:24:34.079 --> 00:24:42.119 well specifically rough sleeping, there is. Yeah, the the risk taking is 329 00:24:42.200 --> 00:24:47.720 huge, it really really is. And yeah, you're absolutely right. For 330 00:24:47.720 --> 00:24:52.440 for many of those men, they're there to kind of an initial you know, 331 00:24:52.519 --> 00:24:56.559 a sort of an initial self medication. You know, whether you know, 332 00:24:56.799 --> 00:25:00.119 you know, whether it is you know, alcohol or kind of like 333 00:25:00.160 --> 00:25:03.079 whatever else. So in a lot of cases, if things have happened to 334 00:25:03.799 --> 00:25:07.839 them and they've not and for whatever reason they've not, they've not got the 335 00:25:07.839 --> 00:25:15.759 help they needed. And unfortunately, the the solutions that many men turn to, 336 00:25:17.160 --> 00:25:18.839 which may be okay in the short term, obviously, the longer that 337 00:25:18.880 --> 00:25:22.319 they're engaging in those those behaviors, the more mild adaptive that they tend to 338 00:25:22.359 --> 00:25:27.319 become, and the anual and just red again they they just tend to kind 339 00:25:27.359 --> 00:25:32.920 of compound further as well. Many of the men that I'd intervene spoke to 340 00:25:33.559 --> 00:25:37.440 had been experiencing rough rough sleeping for for a very long time. There were 341 00:25:37.559 --> 00:25:41.119 there were guys that I spoke to he'd been rough sleeping for decades, absolute 342 00:25:41.200 --> 00:25:49.319 decades, and I'd almost been kind of institutionalized almost to those experiences. And 343 00:25:49.440 --> 00:25:52.839 that kind of you know, is like that like inability of men to ask 344 00:25:52.920 --> 00:25:59.240 for help doesn't go away, unfortunately, And you know, you would see 345 00:25:59.240 --> 00:26:02.960 the same sorts of things, like you would assume that if if a man 346 00:26:03.119 --> 00:26:08.359 is in a situation as horrendous as you know, persistent experiences of homelessness, 347 00:26:08.640 --> 00:26:11.960 you would think that they would be more inclined to ask for help, but 348 00:26:12.359 --> 00:26:15.839 that is not the case. It's not the case. You know. I 349 00:26:15.880 --> 00:26:19.359 would have guys, you know, sort of like intentionally masking, you know, 350 00:26:19.640 --> 00:26:26.200 downplaying, you know, like concealing how you know, like they're bad 351 00:26:26.640 --> 00:26:30.279 injuries were you know, like I had one guy who his his thumb was 352 00:26:30.319 --> 00:26:34.960 almost severed, you know, but was still giving me a hand moving to 353 00:26:36.440 --> 00:26:37.400 some of the food into the kitchen, and I was just like, what 354 00:26:37.759 --> 00:26:41.599 what are you doing. It's fine, it's it's no where, it's no 355 00:26:41.720 --> 00:26:45.519 big deal, to the point of it being at times utterly absurd. But 356 00:26:45.599 --> 00:26:49.559 when you were but when you realize that they've lost many of the conventional ways 357 00:26:49.720 --> 00:26:56.480 that they might perform their masculinity. In many ways, they kind of because 358 00:26:56.480 --> 00:26:59.599 as you rate some of the other areas where where they can still perform something. 359 00:27:00.119 --> 00:27:03.319 Unfortunately, given the illusion of being resilient and tough and stoic's as often 360 00:27:03.559 --> 00:27:07.799 one of the only ones that you know ways that they have left. It's 361 00:27:07.839 --> 00:27:10.880 interesting, is it, because it seems to be coming from both sides, 362 00:27:10.920 --> 00:27:15.079 because it's coming from the individual themselves as well. In hand, if society 363 00:27:15.240 --> 00:27:18.559 is saying where you're a single man, so you're not vulnerable. That's going 364 00:27:18.640 --> 00:27:22.279 to sort of play into that as well, isn't it. You mentioned that 365 00:27:22.359 --> 00:27:26.920 word like hyper masculinity, so I can see how that happens. Yeah, 366 00:27:26.960 --> 00:27:30.000 it's it's it's difficult to kind of it's a bit of a chicken and eg 367 00:27:30.000 --> 00:27:34.240 scenario. Isn't it like to kind of unpick where the hyper masculine, where 368 00:27:34.240 --> 00:27:38.319 the hyper masculinity is coming from, right, whether it's kind of the intensity 369 00:27:38.359 --> 00:27:44.079 of the environment, or whether these individuals already have masculine and the kind of 370 00:27:44.160 --> 00:27:48.079 going there. But my kind of guess is there's a there's a real strong 371 00:27:48.240 --> 00:27:51.400 interaction between the two, you know. So yeah, so you know that, 372 00:27:52.039 --> 00:27:56.400 you know, men are being told you in all sorts of subtle kind 373 00:27:56.440 --> 00:28:02.200 of ways that you know, to be vulnerable is weakness, and that that 374 00:28:02.440 --> 00:28:04.640 that doesn't just go away even when you you know, when you really need 375 00:28:04.720 --> 00:28:11.640 the help. It's it's it's in you both explicitly and you know implicitly, 376 00:28:11.680 --> 00:28:15.200 and you really have to It takes time to you know, well years. 377 00:28:15.240 --> 00:28:18.440 I mean we're still doing it now, trying to unpick those harmful aspects to 378 00:28:18.559 --> 00:28:23.359 our our you know, our gender identities, and you know, unfortunately, 379 00:28:23.599 --> 00:28:27.440 when you're experiencing rough sleeping, you have other things on your mind other than 380 00:28:27.519 --> 00:28:30.839 the you know, the intricacies of you know, gendered scripts and all sorts 381 00:28:30.839 --> 00:28:37.640 of other business. Yeah, how could I ask you how you define hyper 382 00:28:37.680 --> 00:28:41.079 masculinity? I know quite a few says you'll just use it, but how 383 00:28:41.119 --> 00:28:44.440 do you use the term yourself? Oh right, okay, Yeah, So 384 00:28:44.599 --> 00:28:52.200 for me, hypermasculinity is basically exaggerate, exaggerated tendencies of masculinity. Yeah, 385 00:28:52.319 --> 00:28:59.920 so things like, yeah, so a willingness to use violence. A well, 386 00:29:00.079 --> 00:29:06.039 they tend to have quite conservative viewpoints, so it's not always exclusively so, 387 00:29:06.240 --> 00:29:11.440 but they can tend to be homophobic or sexists in some you know, 388 00:29:11.680 --> 00:29:18.119 in some ways they see any sort of expression of emotion as a form of 389 00:29:18.680 --> 00:29:25.039 vulnerability and something to really be suspicious of. There's kind of yeah, there's 390 00:29:25.039 --> 00:29:33.519 a there's just a an emphasis on physical strength, you know, virility almost 391 00:29:33.599 --> 00:29:38.880 in some cases. And you know, if not violence directly, at least 392 00:29:38.920 --> 00:29:45.440 a willingness to use violence just to kind of like solve problems. But these 393 00:29:45.519 --> 00:29:48.480 things are you know, complex. It's not as if, for example, 394 00:29:49.160 --> 00:29:55.119 if you know, you can be hypermasculine within without being homophobic for example. 395 00:29:55.200 --> 00:29:56.960 But it's it's it's more of like a tendency. You tend to see these 396 00:29:57.000 --> 00:30:00.440 sorts of things in these sorts of presence. Yeah, but these things are 397 00:30:00.480 --> 00:30:04.559 obviously nuanced, and you know, you often have men engaging with them in 398 00:30:04.680 --> 00:30:08.039 quite like reflective ways. So they'll they'll kind of almost in like a pick 399 00:30:08.119 --> 00:30:11.599 a mixed kind of thing. They'll pick and choose certain parts to this kind 400 00:30:11.640 --> 00:30:18.079 of gender identity that they like and maybe reject others. And in your experience, 401 00:30:18.079 --> 00:30:21.640 so is it is it kind of used as a defense mechanism you like 402 00:30:22.599 --> 00:30:25.680 to you know, prison life, that you can't show weakness, you have 403 00:30:25.759 --> 00:30:29.240 to defend yourself. Do you think it's being used in that way? Yeah, 404 00:30:29.319 --> 00:30:33.640 So this is kind of what I wanted to know because in the prison 405 00:30:33.759 --> 00:30:40.680 context it's really common and I wondered whether, well, I mean, it 406 00:30:40.799 --> 00:30:42.279 was obviously a feature of that environment, right, So you know, so 407 00:30:42.400 --> 00:30:45.079 if you're if you're in the if you're in the sort of prison space, 408 00:30:45.200 --> 00:30:48.559 well more of a sort of high category prison, I think it's it's a 409 00:30:48.559 --> 00:30:53.279 bit different in the therapeutic prisons, but when you're in those kind of partial 410 00:30:53.440 --> 00:30:59.960 environments and violence is so prevalent you find that that's just you know, it's 411 00:31:00.000 --> 00:31:03.839 it's really common for men to present in that way. And you know, 412 00:31:03.960 --> 00:31:07.359 I mean, David Maguire writes loads on this, and he's far better this 413 00:31:07.440 --> 00:31:11.839 than me. But these sort of sort of presentations, although they were yes, 414 00:31:12.039 --> 00:31:17.599 problematic, and I'm not taken away from the native aspects of those within 415 00:31:17.720 --> 00:31:22.559 that context, they seem to obviously be doing something, you know, and 416 00:31:22.039 --> 00:31:26.200 you know, nothing is accidental. All, you know, all behavior is 417 00:31:26.200 --> 00:31:29.799 a form of of of you know, communication, like it tends to serve 418 00:31:29.839 --> 00:31:36.559 a purpose. So that's kind of why really that I sort of drew on 419 00:31:36.680 --> 00:31:44.160 the on the prison literature. So within you know, within there is a 420 00:31:44.240 --> 00:31:49.680 mode of of survival and within the kind of rough sleeping space, which is 421 00:31:49.759 --> 00:31:53.119 kind of what my findings are kind of now getting to really as I'm kind 422 00:31:53.119 --> 00:31:59.119 of going through them. It's quite comparable. It's it's it's very similar really 423 00:32:00.279 --> 00:32:02.720 to kind of like a prison environment because in many ways as well, like 424 00:32:04.279 --> 00:32:07.079 existing on the streets is quite similar to being in and it's the institution as 425 00:32:07.079 --> 00:32:13.480 well, like there's a there's obviously the continual presence of violence there's limited resources. 426 00:32:13.920 --> 00:32:16.920 You constantly be surveiled all the time, maybe not by prison officers, 427 00:32:16.960 --> 00:32:20.839 by members and members of the of the public, but you are still a 428 00:32:21.000 --> 00:32:25.119 site of suspicion at all times. And it's obviously overwhelmingly male. There's a 429 00:32:25.200 --> 00:32:30.000 lot of comparisons to be to be sort of made there. And yes, 430 00:32:30.160 --> 00:32:35.279 really, when you're when you're when you're on the streets and you have so 431 00:32:35.640 --> 00:32:40.720 few material resources at your kind of like the like disposal, one of one 432 00:32:40.759 --> 00:32:45.079 of the few things you have left is your ability to perform violence. Yes, 433 00:32:46.000 --> 00:32:52.359 yeah, unfortunately, and also as well that you know where you are 434 00:32:52.440 --> 00:32:57.200 often vulnerable in all sorts of ways, that you might have an all amount 435 00:32:57.200 --> 00:33:00.200 of mental health crisis going on, you know, you might well you will 436 00:33:00.279 --> 00:33:07.720 be suffering all sorts of physical problems as well. Showing that is also really 437 00:33:07.759 --> 00:33:15.440 problematic as well. Yeah, so men and men were very very hesitant to 438 00:33:15.480 --> 00:33:20.440 show any kind of problem that they that they might might be having. Yeah. 439 00:33:20.680 --> 00:33:22.039 So, like if you're in a service, for example, and staff 440 00:33:22.039 --> 00:33:24.799 are trying to help you know, you know, you know, say an 441 00:33:24.920 --> 00:33:30.759 individual with the substance misuse problem, that they will not discuss that typically you 442 00:33:30.839 --> 00:33:34.599 know, in kind of the common area, you know, like that staff 443 00:33:34.680 --> 00:33:37.680 men would take them away to a private space and they have a very different 444 00:33:37.720 --> 00:33:42.119 conversation there where they wouldn't feel the same need to perform or the front to 445 00:33:42.279 --> 00:33:46.720 pinch a bit of Goffin's work there. So yeah, it's it's it's very 446 00:33:46.839 --> 00:33:51.000 very similar. I think I'm probably the first to look at it in that 447 00:33:51.200 --> 00:33:53.559 kind of space, but I will I will be making a lot of a 448 00:33:53.680 --> 00:33:59.759 lot of direct comparisons because I would argue that they're very similar spaces. I 449 00:34:00.279 --> 00:34:01.480 just wondered, Anon, if you could give us another example. You know, 450 00:34:01.559 --> 00:34:05.680 you mentioned the guy with a seventh film? Was there another example that 451 00:34:05.880 --> 00:34:08.239 sort of in your two years of research really stood out to you as sort 452 00:34:08.239 --> 00:34:13.199 of a you know, an indictment of the stoicism of masculinity. Oh? 453 00:34:13.400 --> 00:34:15.760 Absolutely, I mean, this is the thing with this type of research. 454 00:34:15.880 --> 00:34:21.039 These these people stay with you, these stories, you know, these interviews, 455 00:34:21.079 --> 00:34:23.239 they stay with you for years. They kind of live live rent free 456 00:34:23.280 --> 00:34:27.320 in your head a little bit, not only because you're going through them all 457 00:34:27.960 --> 00:34:31.639 their their transcripts, but they they're they're really impactful. But no, I 458 00:34:32.000 --> 00:34:37.000 had one one, one fellow and he must have been I don't know, 459 00:34:37.079 --> 00:34:42.079 in his fifties, and you know, he did. He didn't present as 460 00:34:42.159 --> 00:34:45.360 what you might expect to someone who was a rough sleeper, who was you 461 00:34:45.440 --> 00:34:46.800 know, I know its a bit of a stereotype, but I mean you're 462 00:34:46.840 --> 00:34:51.000 like physically like in terms of you know, dress, you know, things 463 00:34:51.039 --> 00:34:55.119 like that you probably wouldn't have been able to tell from the outside. So, 464 00:34:55.239 --> 00:34:59.960 I know, struck up a conversation to see if I could help, 465 00:35:00.079 --> 00:35:04.559 and we kind of got chatting, and he was telling me essentially that he'd 466 00:35:04.639 --> 00:35:08.639 been rough rough sleeping for a couple of years, and he'd been going from 467 00:35:08.960 --> 00:35:13.400 essentially town to town, so he'd he'd go from one city or town, 468 00:35:14.519 --> 00:35:16.480 goes to the service there for for a few weeks and then and then move 469 00:35:16.559 --> 00:35:20.159 on. So trying to sort of dig deep a little bit, and you 470 00:35:20.199 --> 00:35:22.679 know as to why, you know, why can't you know, engage your 471 00:35:22.679 --> 00:35:27.239 services here and you know, get some help and stuff and what and what 472 00:35:27.320 --> 00:35:32.840 had happened is he's basically suffered a kind of a relationship breakdown. So his 473 00:35:34.480 --> 00:35:38.440 wife had left him, and as a as a result, his kind of 474 00:35:38.599 --> 00:35:44.400 his daughter had kind of blamed him for the kind of the kind of family 475 00:35:44.480 --> 00:35:47.000 kind of breaking down and this was just too much of him to bear this, 476 00:35:47.239 --> 00:35:51.960 this this was just too too difficult. So the kind of the loss 477 00:35:52.039 --> 00:35:54.719 of his of his relationship with with his daughter really just caused a bit of 478 00:35:54.719 --> 00:35:58.239 an exidential crisis, and and that's really what pushed him. I think after 479 00:35:58.320 --> 00:36:01.199 that he lost everything he just held, couldn't go. But what really struck 480 00:36:01.239 --> 00:36:05.199 me about it, and what really kind of links into the work I'm doing, 481 00:36:05.320 --> 00:36:09.079 really is that he didn't know how to phone her. He had a 482 00:36:09.199 --> 00:36:15.000 number, he knew, he knew where where she was, and he didn't 483 00:36:15.039 --> 00:36:17.079 know how to emotionally get past that. He didn't know how to have He 484 00:36:17.159 --> 00:36:22.119 didn't have the language to be able to have that conversation, you know, 485 00:36:22.199 --> 00:36:27.000 to be able to tell her what he was experiencing and what he was going 486 00:36:27.079 --> 00:36:29.960 through. And he'd been through some awful things, let me tell you, 487 00:36:30.880 --> 00:36:34.960 and he just wasn't able to have that. He wasn't emotionally literate enough, 488 00:36:35.079 --> 00:36:37.960 and a lot of men aren't to have this conversations. But he had a 489 00:36:38.079 --> 00:36:43.079 phone, and he always made sure this phone was charged. And the only 490 00:36:43.119 --> 00:36:45.000 reason he had that phone was for the off chance that wonder she might phone 491 00:36:45.039 --> 00:36:52.119 him and he'd been waiting almost two years for that phone call. That is 492 00:36:52.159 --> 00:36:54.559 absolutely heartbreaking. And you know, I can still I can still see him 493 00:36:54.599 --> 00:36:59.519 now and as I say, it stays there with you. It really really 494 00:36:59.679 --> 00:37:02.840 does. Now, if he was just just a little bit more, you 495 00:37:02.920 --> 00:37:08.480 know, aware of of his feelings, and I suppose had that I don't 496 00:37:08.519 --> 00:37:14.519 know, skill set. I guess that you know that that that that men 497 00:37:14.559 --> 00:37:17.840 often struggle with to be able to just just say how he felt and you 498 00:37:17.920 --> 00:37:22.360 know, just just have and just be vulnerable with his daughter. I have 499 00:37:22.480 --> 00:37:25.840 no doubt he could have reconnected, but he just couldn't. Just couldn't. 500 00:37:27.199 --> 00:37:30.000 And you know he could he could be doing that for another ten years. 501 00:37:30.440 --> 00:37:32.840 Yeah, what what do you think was the mental obstacle for him? There? 502 00:37:32.920 --> 00:37:36.360 Is it? I just wonder. I bet, I bet so many 503 00:37:36.440 --> 00:37:38.480 times you picked up the phone, put the number in, or typed out 504 00:37:38.480 --> 00:37:40.719 a message and deleted it. You know, I bet that happened time and 505 00:37:40.760 --> 00:37:45.679 time again. I just had what was what was the final blocker to get 506 00:37:45.719 --> 00:37:49.559 him over the top. I think for him it was the fact that he 507 00:37:50.079 --> 00:37:55.000 that he saw himself as a failure, that he failed to prevent the breakup 508 00:37:55.159 --> 00:38:00.800 of his marriage. He failed to prevent the loss of loss of their family 509 00:38:00.920 --> 00:38:06.239 home, and just because I think he was the breadwinner at that time, 510 00:38:07.000 --> 00:38:12.039 he just he just blamed himself I think really for for for the loss of 511 00:38:12.119 --> 00:38:17.280 everything, and he couldn't Yeah, he just couldn't cope with that, even 512 00:38:17.440 --> 00:38:21.199 even though I don't think that that any of that blame was fair and the 513 00:38:21.480 --> 00:38:24.000 and these things do do just happen. Yeah, there was a lost, 514 00:38:24.039 --> 00:38:27.840 lost, loss of control and shame, which is that you know, we 515 00:38:27.960 --> 00:38:31.599 see huge amounts of shame with men, with men like this. Yeah, 516 00:38:32.079 --> 00:38:36.519 yeah, I can imagine that is quite a common theme. Certainly, thank 517 00:38:36.559 --> 00:38:39.840 you for sharing that story. That's not totally Do you mind telling us where 518 00:38:39.960 --> 00:38:44.639 you're up to at the moment and when we when we can start to read 519 00:38:44.639 --> 00:38:46.800 a little bit more about this. No, that's fine, that's fine. 520 00:38:47.159 --> 00:38:52.559 So I'm part time. So I'm on year five now, So I've just 521 00:38:52.320 --> 00:38:58.159 I've just entered my right up yere. So I finished my field with last 522 00:38:58.199 --> 00:39:01.840 year and I'm I'm just at the stage now of kind of starting to write 523 00:39:01.920 --> 00:39:08.280 up hopefully my my you know, in my findings into something that's quite I 524 00:39:08.360 --> 00:39:12.400 have I hope that will be quite impactful and we'll be able to kind of 525 00:39:12.440 --> 00:39:16.360 make a real difference really to the to the to the sort of services on 526 00:39:16.480 --> 00:39:20.679 the sort of front line. They don't they don't tend to have much of 527 00:39:20.760 --> 00:39:23.360 what you might might call a gendered approach. So I'm trying to really kind 528 00:39:23.400 --> 00:39:30.880 of improve that really at the kind of like provision level. That's that that's 529 00:39:30.920 --> 00:39:34.360 the kind of that's where my findings aimed at right now. So I work 530 00:39:34.440 --> 00:39:38.119 quite closely with the services because I'm trying to really kind of work with services, 531 00:39:38.280 --> 00:39:42.559 I mean not not not just homeless services, but like potentially others that 532 00:39:42.639 --> 00:39:45.400 come into contact with people who experience it homeless, just like the police, 533 00:39:45.199 --> 00:39:51.440 to really kind of provide that insight into how these these presentations, you know, 534 00:39:51.599 --> 00:39:55.679 how how this behavior presents and what what this behavior is and just as 535 00:39:55.679 --> 00:40:00.079 importantly where this behavior is coming from as well. Thank you, Thank you. 536 00:40:00.280 --> 00:40:02.800 And if people want to find out a little bit more or get in 537 00:40:02.880 --> 00:40:06.599 touch with you, do you want to give out some details? And yeah, 538 00:40:06.719 --> 00:40:08.679 I am on LinkedIn, so it's just a Anton Roberts. I'm on 539 00:40:08.800 --> 00:40:14.599 there. I'm always open to you know, a chat, so feel free 540 00:40:14.639 --> 00:40:17.480 to email me. That's a dot Roberts at MM, you do act at 541 00:40:17.559 --> 00:40:22.599 UK and I am on Twitter as well, which is social underscore nomad, 542 00:40:23.039 --> 00:40:25.599 although I can't actually get into it right now because Musk blocked me, but 543 00:40:25.679 --> 00:40:30.280 I am working on that. Yeah, but any any of those are absolutely 544 00:40:30.280 --> 00:40:34.519 fine. Always happy to have a chat. Brilliant. Well, thank you 545 00:40:34.599 --> 00:40:37.000 very much for your time today, Anton, really really do appreciate it. 546 00:40:37.159 --> 00:40:40.559 Fantastic problem. It's a pleasure. Thank you, Thank you. The Sociology 547 00:40:40.639 --> 00:40:45.880 Show podcast relies on the kind contributions of sponsorship and donations. 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