WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.080 --> 00:00:05.679 How'd you like to listen to dot NetRocks with no ads? Easy? Become 2 00:00:05.679 --> 00:00:09.839 a patron for just five dollars a month. You get access to a private 3 00:00:10.000 --> 00:00:14.240 RSS feed where all the shows have no ads. Twenty dollars a month. 4 00:00:14.279 --> 00:00:18.839 We'll get you that and a special dot NetRocks patron mug. Sign up now 5 00:00:18.839 --> 00:00:37.280 at Patreon dot dot NetRocks dot com. Hey guess what it's dot NetRocks. 6 00:00:37.439 --> 00:00:41.039 It's twenty twenty four. I'm Carl Franklin. That's Richie Campbell. Hey, 7 00:00:41.320 --> 00:00:44.200 I am so all day? Yeah every time. How you doing, buddy? 8 00:00:44.560 --> 00:00:47.560 I follow me everywhere. Sometimes I forget my name and I check it. 9 00:00:47.880 --> 00:00:51.960 Sometimes I think I'm Joe Boxer, but I'm not. Due's Joe Boxer. 10 00:00:52.039 --> 00:00:55.240 Is that a Canadian thing? Is the name on my underwear? Oh? 11 00:00:55.280 --> 00:00:59.840 All right, it's like, what is that Canadian fruit of the loom? 12 00:01:00.240 --> 00:01:03.679 Yeah, I don't think I would be named fruit, but Joe Joe 13 00:01:03.719 --> 00:01:11.359 works. I'm the grapes you go, just fermented nicely. So how was 14 00:01:11.439 --> 00:01:15.480 your you know, New Year's and Christmas and all that, well, and 15 00:01:15.480 --> 00:01:18.040 everything's changed now we sold the big house in the city. You know, 16 00:01:18.560 --> 00:01:21.040 I'm still working on the whole how do you sell this smart home thing? 17 00:01:21.599 --> 00:01:25.120 But you know, now we don't have the big house in the center of 18 00:01:25.159 --> 00:01:29.000 the family anymore, right, so things move around. So the younger daughter 19 00:01:29.079 --> 00:01:33.319 hosted the Christmas meal, which was fun. Oh that's cool. That's got 20 00:01:33.359 --> 00:01:36.519 to be great for her. Huh yeah. Yeah, But it just brings 21 00:01:36.560 --> 00:01:40.920 back the memory for me when we got that house in two thousand of my 22 00:01:41.000 --> 00:01:46.120 father looking through it at first Christmas going okay, you're it. That's right. 23 00:01:46.239 --> 00:01:49.760 Yeah, I'm not doing it anymore. I't and I ever felt that 24 00:01:49.840 --> 00:01:55.040 way per se, but suddenly we're in this position. Yeah. But you 25 00:01:55.079 --> 00:01:57.439 know, the other thing is there is a guesthouse up here. So the 26 00:01:57.519 --> 00:02:01.000 older daughter and her business partner or they're working from here for the next two 27 00:02:01.040 --> 00:02:04.560 weeks. So they came up right after New Year's and just so we have 28 00:02:04.599 --> 00:02:07.640 dinner most nights and that kind of thing. So it's like we're living in 29 00:02:07.640 --> 00:02:09.319 a little village right now. Yeah, we're gonna have a quiz on Richard's 30 00:02:09.400 --> 00:02:14.319 life a personal life after the show, So get out your pen you're all 31 00:02:14.360 --> 00:02:16.360 paying attention in pencil. But if you're yeah, that's very very cool. 32 00:02:16.560 --> 00:02:20.800 Just be aware when I'm recording. Here, I'm looking out at the ocean 33 00:02:20.840 --> 00:02:23.360 as well, like that's the life. Yeah, I'm in the coolest studio 34 00:02:23.400 --> 00:02:27.639 I've ever owned, so yeah, no, it's it looks great. And 35 00:02:28.360 --> 00:02:30.639 Jimmy Bogart is here. We're going to talk to him in just a few 36 00:02:30.639 --> 00:02:40.599 minutes. But first, Better Know a Framework? Awesome, a hard man, 37 00:02:40.639 --> 00:02:43.319 what do you got? All right? So it's been a while since 38 00:02:43.360 --> 00:02:47.560 I explained better No a Framework. It started out as just a piece in 39 00:02:47.599 --> 00:02:51.719 the beginning of the show where I find a little piece of the dot neet 40 00:02:51.759 --> 00:02:54.319 framework, maybe a name space or a class or something you didn't know was 41 00:02:54.360 --> 00:02:59.879 there, and talk about it. And that quickly got old, and then 42 00:03:00.039 --> 00:03:04.520 it became I it was several years of talking about the framework. Well yeah, 43 00:03:04.560 --> 00:03:07.199 but this is the problem when you do a show for twenty years is 44 00:03:07.759 --> 00:03:09.479 eventually you get through the framework, you get through the framework right, and 45 00:03:09.520 --> 00:03:13.919 you run out of things, and then you know, it becomes more interesting 46 00:03:13.960 --> 00:03:17.479 to find things that are going on in the world and just spotlight them. 47 00:03:17.560 --> 00:03:23.240 So that's that's what it is. And today's spotlight is speaking of dot net 48 00:03:23.360 --> 00:03:30.400 eight migrations. This is a class that I'm going to be teaching online in 49 00:03:30.960 --> 00:03:38.800 January here January twenty seventh called Essential Blazer in dot net eight. So it's 50 00:03:38.840 --> 00:03:46.039 a one day hands on remote class with Zoom and I've got a link to 51 00:03:46.080 --> 00:03:52.280 it there on the website. And also, because this is episode eighteen eighty, 52 00:03:52.439 --> 00:03:55.599 if you go to eighteen eighty dot pop, dot me or Blazer dot 53 00:03:55.599 --> 00:03:59.439 appnix dot com, you'll get to it. Awesome, it's an event bright 54 00:03:59.520 --> 00:04:02.599 page and I'm really really looking forward to it. See. This is the 55 00:04:02.599 --> 00:04:06.120 cool thing is that this is what I do. I say, hey, 56 00:04:06.159 --> 00:04:10.840 I'm teaching this class and that forces me to go through all my materials and 57 00:04:10.960 --> 00:04:14.400 update it. And oh no, you announced the class before you finished writing 58 00:04:14.439 --> 00:04:16.360 it. Goodness knows, well, I have the I have the content, 59 00:04:16.480 --> 00:04:19.240 but it needs to be updated, it needs to be migrated, and then 60 00:04:19.560 --> 00:04:25.720 you know, re explained within the context of eight. I got asked for 61 00:04:25.800 --> 00:04:29.079 new geek outs for twenty twenty four, so I say, I sat down 62 00:04:29.079 --> 00:04:31.120 and wrote two great abstracts. I can't wait to see what the talks are 63 00:04:31.160 --> 00:04:36.439 like. Yeah, that's kind of a reality in our world. Is that's 64 00:04:36.519 --> 00:04:39.839 it? You know what I really like? How about this? And I 65 00:04:39.839 --> 00:04:42.120 said, out this abstract, you're like, yeah, do that. I'm 66 00:04:42.160 --> 00:04:46.199 like, no, damn. But that now it's the fun part. You've 67 00:04:46.199 --> 00:04:50.079 given yourself a deadline and you know you can do it. It's not that 68 00:04:50.160 --> 00:04:54.399 you can't, so I mean, and let's be clear, it's how to 69 00:04:54.439 --> 00:04:59.560 become a space fearing civilization and understanding nuclear power, two things I can probably 70 00:04:59.639 --> 00:05:02.360 cough for an hour. I think I'll actually, you know, finish the 71 00:05:02.399 --> 00:05:06.879 research right right, and okay, So that's what I got. Who's talking 72 00:05:06.879 --> 00:05:12.079 to us today? Richard ah Grab a comment off of show eighteen sixty two, 73 00:05:12.120 --> 00:05:14.839 the one we did back in September one. Jimmy Bogard maybe've heard of 74 00:05:14.879 --> 00:05:17.800 him, never heard of when we were talking about his open source project or 75 00:05:17.839 --> 00:05:21.759 one of the ones that he's involved with, Mediator, and Jimmy Scott said, 76 00:05:21.920 --> 00:05:25.959 this is about right after the show publishing, he sent this message. 77 00:05:25.959 --> 00:05:29.560 He said, we use Mediator for persistence of our settings in a solution, 78 00:05:29.680 --> 00:05:32.759 and it's a dream when it compared to the service locator pattern, which sucked. 79 00:05:33.519 --> 00:05:38.279 I understand sub drawbacks of Mediator, lots of tiny classes in direction, 80 00:05:38.519 --> 00:05:43.160 but the key advantages far outweigh those. The centralization of data persistence logic, 81 00:05:43.199 --> 00:05:47.959 which can be invoked from other than web APIs easily testable logic, and mediators 82 00:05:47.959 --> 00:05:54.000 delegating handler pattern easily decorate requests with common handling logic. Yeah, oh, 83 00:05:54.279 --> 00:05:57.519 Jimmy, I think you got a fan there. I guess so, making 84 00:05:57.680 --> 00:06:00.279 one of the many. Yeah, without a doubt. I mean, we'll 85 00:06:00.279 --> 00:06:03.120 pass out a lot to Jimmy. Look to Jimmy's and thanks so much for 86 00:06:03.160 --> 00:06:05.360 your commented. A copy of music Koba is on its way to you. 87 00:06:05.519 --> 00:06:08.279 And if you'd like a copy of music, go buy. I rite a 88 00:06:08.279 --> 00:06:11.600 comment on the website at dot NetRocks dot com or on the facebooks. We 89 00:06:11.600 --> 00:06:13.879 publish every show there, and if you comment there and everything on the show, 90 00:06:14.040 --> 00:06:15.920 we'll send you a copy of music. Go by. And you can 91 00:06:15.959 --> 00:06:17.759 follow us on Twitter if you want to. But the cool kids are hanging 92 00:06:17.759 --> 00:06:21.920 out on Mastodon these days. I'm at Carl Franklin at tech hub dot social, 93 00:06:23.040 --> 00:06:26.319 and I'm Rich Campbell at mastadon dot social. Send us a tuote, 94 00:06:26.360 --> 00:06:29.319 a tweet, an ex, a poot, whatever the heck you call um, 95 00:06:29.560 --> 00:06:31.879 just get it to us any of those things. I got an account 96 00:06:31.920 --> 00:06:35.240 on threads now and blue Sky and they're all kind of fun. They are 97 00:06:35.319 --> 00:06:39.519 kind of fun. Yeah, you know they each I like the smaller communities. 98 00:06:39.519 --> 00:06:42.439 That reminds you of why we liked social media in the first place. 99 00:06:42.560 --> 00:06:46.920 That's what I love about being on masted On is that there's just not there's 100 00:06:46.920 --> 00:06:51.079 no advertising, there's no crap. It's just good stuff. All right. 101 00:06:51.160 --> 00:06:56.240 Let's bring Jimmy Boguard on. Of course he's been on many times before. 102 00:06:56.279 --> 00:07:00.319 He's the creator and maintainer of the popular OSS libraries, Auto Mapper and Mediator. 103 00:07:01.399 --> 00:07:06.519 Jimmy's an independent software consultant based in Austin, Texas, and he has 104 00:07:06.600 --> 00:07:11.800 received the MVP Award every year since two thousand and nine. Welcome back, 105 00:07:11.879 --> 00:07:15.160 Jimmy. Good to see again. Yeah, I need to punch your frequent 106 00:07:15.160 --> 00:07:18.639 flyer card there. I think it's number six including an open source panel, 107 00:07:18.800 --> 00:07:26.000 So yeah, she is. I think I think you are more than the 108 00:07:26.079 --> 00:07:29.439 number of episodes you've done. It's just a number of times you're referred to 109 00:07:29.959 --> 00:07:33.319 YEA as the kind of the right way to do open source, like when 110 00:07:33.360 --> 00:07:38.199 a nice person does the right thing by a project that sort of gets out 111 00:07:38.199 --> 00:07:42.160 of control. I think of Jimmy Bogart just like the madness that you ended 112 00:07:42.240 --> 00:07:45.399 up with automapper. Oh you didn't have to like bleep out something after they 113 00:07:45.600 --> 00:07:48.680 mentioned my name. I also think, Jimmy, that you're a real generalist, 114 00:07:49.040 --> 00:07:55.519 and you know, your knowledge and experience is vast horizontally as well as 115 00:07:55.600 --> 00:08:01.279 vertically. I remember being in Nonslow maybe some with you overseas, and it 116 00:08:01.360 --> 00:08:05.600 was before the conference started, and we were just sitting down maybe at breakfast 117 00:08:05.680 --> 00:08:11.279 or something, and just riffed on messaging, you know, enterprise messaging. 118 00:08:11.439 --> 00:08:20.399 And do you remember that conversation? No, I have a lot of but 119 00:08:20.519 --> 00:08:26.000 you know, you can remember having conversations like that, I'm sure because it 120 00:08:26.079 --> 00:08:31.679 was just great. It's really cool to have conversations with somebody who has this 121 00:08:31.840 --> 00:08:35.759 knowledge that he doesn't get to share with most people. But you know, 122 00:08:35.840 --> 00:08:39.679 these two people meet that you know, Oh yeah, enterprise messaging. Let's 123 00:08:39.679 --> 00:08:43.879 talk about that for an hour. It's great. Okay, Now I am 124 00:08:43.919 --> 00:08:48.519 remembering this conversation now, because again I don't it doesn't seem like people do 125 00:08:48.559 --> 00:08:52.879 that very much in maybe the Dinaut space, I'm not sure, but it's 126 00:08:54.039 --> 00:08:56.000 one of those things like once you get introduced to you like, oh, 127 00:08:56.039 --> 00:09:01.200 there's this whole like universe of this technology that is really cool, but just 128 00:09:01.240 --> 00:09:03.799 not a lot of people get to touch it very much. Yeah, true, 129 00:09:03.879 --> 00:09:07.960 app it. That's also a space where it's a way of thinking when 130 00:09:07.000 --> 00:09:11.120 you're building software at a certain scale or a certain level of complexity. And 131 00:09:11.159 --> 00:09:13.720 if you're in that space, like, it's really awesome, and if you're 132 00:09:13.759 --> 00:09:16.120 not, it's just people are looking at you like why would you do that? 133 00:09:16.120 --> 00:09:20.600 That seems unnecessary? Like, well, look, come on, guys, 134 00:09:20.679 --> 00:09:24.799 let's talk about fishing or seinfeld or something normal. I don't know they 135 00:09:26.039 --> 00:09:28.679 I mean, you guys love talking about messaging. I don't mind talking about 136 00:09:28.679 --> 00:09:31.519 messaging either. But the one that I have to stop myself on home assistant, 137 00:09:31.799 --> 00:09:35.159 Like, if you're into home Assistant, we could talk for days. 138 00:09:35.399 --> 00:09:41.200 If you are not, don't do it. Just not Ye. Anyway, 139 00:09:41.240 --> 00:09:45.559 we were gonna talk about work because you've been up to stuff. Yeah, 140 00:09:45.759 --> 00:09:50.399 yeah, I think this topic is like that was my life for about twelve 141 00:09:50.399 --> 00:09:54.639 months, twelve to eighteen months. I'm doing this modernization migration effort. So 142 00:09:54.840 --> 00:10:00.919 before the shipping of dot net, you were moving an app to to eight 143 00:10:01.080 --> 00:10:05.000 or just to the modern version of dot net. So this is actually to 144 00:10:05.120 --> 00:10:07.360 dot net six. And then eventually it did migrate to dot et eight. 145 00:10:07.360 --> 00:10:11.679 But the big jump was to dot net six initially from dot net four eight, 146 00:10:13.159 --> 00:10:18.080 Right, so what's the big hurdle getting rid of ASP dot net web 147 00:10:18.080 --> 00:10:22.879 forms? Oh god, okay, so yeah that was I mean, the 148 00:10:22.240 --> 00:10:28.799 first big thing we had to worry about was just what exists in their current 149 00:10:28.840 --> 00:10:33.559 system and then what is the migration path to something over on dot net six? 150 00:10:33.879 --> 00:10:37.879 And web forms is one of those things like there is no straightforward path. 151 00:10:37.919 --> 00:10:41.159 It is a just a straight up re write. So there may be 152 00:10:41.200 --> 00:10:43.799 like conversion tools to Blazer or something like that, but the web forms as 153 00:10:43.799 --> 00:10:48.039 a model does not exist in dot net core or whatever you want to call 154 00:10:48.080 --> 00:10:50.879 it. Dot Net six seven eight just doesn't exist. So do you just 155 00:10:50.960 --> 00:10:56.200 rewrite those pages in your favorite flavor? Go Razor pages or Blazer or whatever 156 00:10:56.240 --> 00:10:58.840 makes you happy. Pretty much, we've got some folks want to go, 157 00:10:58.960 --> 00:11:01.240 like, you know, modern I is the page to begin with, So 158 00:11:01.559 --> 00:11:03.879 you know, let's let's rewrite those set of pages to be like, you 159 00:11:03.879 --> 00:11:07.360 know, spa angular sort of style, because maybe that component style architecture makes 160 00:11:07.360 --> 00:11:11.080 a lot of sense for those pages, right, maybe it doesn't, so 161 00:11:11.279 --> 00:11:13.919 really like a page by page whatever, this system that luckily only had one 162 00:11:15.039 --> 00:11:18.720 web forms page, so it's just like a yeah, only one of those, 163 00:11:20.240 --> 00:11:22.279 otherwise it would have been a big, you know, rewrite. But 164 00:11:22.320 --> 00:11:24.320 we had to look through everything like what all the screens, you know, 165 00:11:24.360 --> 00:11:28.679 what, all the technology the screens are built on, and then also all 166 00:11:28.679 --> 00:11:33.720 the behind the scenes junk like the middleware, the any kind of back end 167 00:11:33.960 --> 00:11:37.120 whatever junk that was going on as well. Now, did you have any 168 00:11:37.159 --> 00:11:39.600 maintainers of the four point eight version, like was it compilable or was it 169 00:11:39.639 --> 00:11:43.559 a you know, maintaining state at least? Oh? Yeah, so this 170 00:11:43.679 --> 00:11:46.279 was like a live app that was still having ongoing feature development too. So 171 00:11:46.480 --> 00:11:50.240 we as part of the migration process, we do we do worry about well, 172 00:11:50.279 --> 00:11:54.840 we we can't ask the business to stop feature development for months at a 173 00:11:54.840 --> 00:11:58.600 time. Why we'll do this migration process like that. That conversation never goes 174 00:11:58.600 --> 00:12:03.799 well, yeah, right, we stop doing things you care about for things 175 00:12:03.799 --> 00:12:07.519 that we need and you no doubt, when you're doing this migration you you 176 00:12:07.639 --> 00:12:11.200 uncover some technical debt that you may or may not have known was there, 177 00:12:11.639 --> 00:12:16.080 right, and invariably happens. Oh absolutely, So that was a big thing 178 00:12:16.080 --> 00:12:20.240 for us to just we're gonna We're gonna turn over some rocks and see it 179 00:12:20.639 --> 00:12:22.720 see something we don't want to, we don't expect, and like do we 180 00:12:22.799 --> 00:12:24.840 just you know, turn the rock over again and be like w ooops, 181 00:12:24.919 --> 00:12:31.559 let's just uh we try to or do we do we try to like fix 182 00:12:31.639 --> 00:12:33.080 it? You know, why does this class exist? And why do we 183 00:12:33.159 --> 00:12:39.080 keep passing it around? What is that? Yeah? There was Gordon Ramsey 184 00:12:39.120 --> 00:12:45.879 going into your walk in you know you're like, what is that? Yeah? 185 00:12:45.919 --> 00:12:48.799 I mean you we have cases where so one big thing we did at 186 00:12:48.759 --> 00:12:52.480 the beginning was just analyze dependencies, like what does this application depend on? 187 00:12:52.000 --> 00:12:56.559 And do those things exist and are supported in dot net core? And for 188 00:12:56.720 --> 00:13:00.759 several of those things they didn't, So we said, do you know, 189 00:13:00.840 --> 00:13:03.600 do we uh, you know, there's there's kind of like shims and bridges 190 00:13:03.639 --> 00:13:07.720 that exist a don net core to to like call APIs and donit framework and 191 00:13:07.759 --> 00:13:13.799 like cross your fingers hope they exist. But that's just a I didn't like 192 00:13:13.840 --> 00:13:16.840 that because you only know if it's going to work at run time, and 193 00:13:16.879 --> 00:13:18.519 we didn't want to know if we failed or not to like, oh we 194 00:13:18.600 --> 00:13:22.240 tried to call this method, it doesn't actually exist. So we're just going 195 00:13:22.320 --> 00:13:24.519 to blow up and a user see that. So as much as possible, 196 00:13:24.519 --> 00:13:30.399 we said, well, let's go ahead and upgrade those things in place in 197 00:13:30.440 --> 00:13:35.039 the donet framework gap and then we've got a straightforward migration path over to the 198 00:13:35.039 --> 00:13:39.519 dot net core for those things. Did you use any like migration advisor tools 199 00:13:39.559 --> 00:13:43.000 anything like that. There are a couple of those out there. There's one 200 00:13:45.159 --> 00:13:50.000 that Microsoft had out there to uh, to analyze your dependencies and kind of 201 00:13:50.000 --> 00:13:52.320 tell you, but it spit out a list of items. I was like 202 00:13:52.639 --> 00:13:56.120 a spreadsheet with ten thousand rows to try to shift through this. If I 203 00:13:56.399 --> 00:14:00.000 to take that much time, I'm going to do it myself. Yeah, 204 00:14:00.039 --> 00:14:01.799 that's basically went through. It's like, well, we know what we what 205 00:14:01.840 --> 00:14:05.320 we're looking for here, so we'll just go through and find those things. 206 00:14:05.360 --> 00:14:09.039 So one good example is like e F six. This app used e F 207 00:14:09.120 --> 00:14:15.240 six. E F six wasn't supported in don net core for a very long 208 00:14:15.279 --> 00:14:18.879 time, and then eventually Microsoft said, this is a big hurdle for people 209 00:14:18.919 --> 00:14:24.120 migrating, so we're going to release another version whose sole purpose is to you 210 00:14:24.159 --> 00:14:26.200 know, cover the ninety nine percent of the features and support it on net 211 00:14:26.200 --> 00:14:30.399 core. So that it's easier to upgrade. So that was one like okay, 212 00:14:30.399 --> 00:14:35.159 we just we go from six six one to six' five. Okay, 213 00:14:35.159 --> 00:14:37.960 now we get an opragrade path and we're not going to replace with ef 214 00:14:37.000 --> 00:14:41.519 core because that is a big undertaking. Right, So that there is a 215 00:14:41.559 --> 00:14:46.600 friendly version of ef now in six' five that makes that problem go away, 216 00:14:46.639 --> 00:14:48.320 so you don't have to tear everything apart. Yeah, and so just 217 00:14:48.399 --> 00:14:52.159 we we know we want upgrade eve core, but it lets us not have 218 00:14:52.200 --> 00:14:56.679 to do everything all at once. That's where we're trying to make very small 219 00:14:56.720 --> 00:15:00.960 incremental changes and we can still release to production every time to make this change. 220 00:15:01.039 --> 00:15:03.159 Well, and the implication here is like, don't do the bridging back 221 00:15:03.200 --> 00:15:07.840 to four eight. That's bad, but do take advantage of the Entity Framework 222 00:15:07.879 --> 00:15:11.480 interim state because that's good. That's that'll be all right. It's a it's 223 00:15:11.480 --> 00:15:16.039 a it's a shorter migration path because really we want to get a dot net 224 00:15:16.080 --> 00:15:20.600 core that was the big thing dot net six seven eight, and then once 225 00:15:20.600 --> 00:15:22.200 we were there, we could say, okay, let's go ahead and modernize 226 00:15:22.240 --> 00:15:28.200 these other pieces that have better things or better ways of doing things in the 227 00:15:28.240 --> 00:15:33.200 dot net seven eight space, right, and I mean, and then I 228 00:15:33.200 --> 00:15:35.919 guess I begs that our early question, which is why are we doing this? 229 00:15:35.080 --> 00:15:39.600 What are we getting for it? What is wrong with four eight? 230 00:15:39.720 --> 00:15:46.799 Right? For this client though, they're they're big thing was like they wanted 231 00:15:46.840 --> 00:15:50.399 to take advantage of things in a sp net core as the framework, right, 232 00:15:50.440 --> 00:15:54.039 and so this application being built on that and being built on a st 233 00:15:54.080 --> 00:15:58.960 four for eight, they saw that, well, that's really not getting up 234 00:16:00.080 --> 00:16:03.440 dated or improved, and so this application is going to live on in the 235 00:16:03.480 --> 00:16:07.840 future, then we want to be on top of a framework. So it's 236 00:16:07.879 --> 00:16:11.840 less about dot at eight and more about asp net core, as this is 237 00:16:11.879 --> 00:16:15.320 a web application that needs to live for another ten years and grow and improve 238 00:16:15.360 --> 00:16:18.399 and change. Right, The question is would have been better to wait longer? 239 00:16:18.559 --> 00:16:22.919 Like you were obviously not jumping on the earliest versions of VSP dot net 240 00:16:22.960 --> 00:16:26.320 core, which were rough, but you've got a mature versions, Like when's 241 00:16:26.360 --> 00:16:33.039 the right time to jump those new features? Yeah? So for this application 242 00:16:33.080 --> 00:16:37.799 of particular, and the most of them, I see, dot net six 243 00:16:37.879 --> 00:16:41.279 and seven was the right time for them, right, And the reason why 244 00:16:41.480 --> 00:16:48.480 is that Microsoft introduced a few set of libraries and tools to make that migration 245 00:16:48.039 --> 00:16:56.080 incrementally eight thousand times easier. Before that, if you wanted to migrate incrementally, 246 00:16:56.559 --> 00:17:00.960 it was a very manual process to do so. And I can kind 247 00:17:00.960 --> 00:17:03.039 of walk through what we used to do, what we used to do for 248 00:17:03.119 --> 00:17:07.720 the dot net Core three one, for example, we we didn't want to 249 00:17:07.720 --> 00:17:10.640 have a big bang migration, never want to do that. That's just fraught 250 00:17:10.640 --> 00:17:12.799 with risk. The flip and the switch is just you know, how do 251 00:17:12.799 --> 00:17:18.119 you how do you uh do regression testing of a whole system? Every that's 252 00:17:18.119 --> 00:17:25.680 just like sucks more than flipping that switch, is flipping it back. Well, 253 00:17:25.839 --> 00:17:27.519 we we we did do that. We yeah, So we wanted to 254 00:17:27.559 --> 00:17:30.599 say there's no there's no roll back, there's only a roll forward. You 255 00:17:30.720 --> 00:17:34.200 fix things and incimently go. So in the old days when we did this 256 00:17:34.319 --> 00:17:37.799 and dont Core three, one way we would do this is we'd have two 257 00:17:37.839 --> 00:17:41.720 apps. One is your dot net core app, one is a dot net 258 00:17:41.720 --> 00:17:45.000 framework app, right, and then we would manually migrate pages from dot net 259 00:17:45.039 --> 00:17:51.079 framework over to dot net Core. But from the kind of end user perspective, 260 00:17:51.119 --> 00:17:55.279 they'd still be hitting don net framework even if this pages still the new 261 00:17:55.319 --> 00:17:59.559 pages exist in don a Core. So we would introduce a reverse proxy in 262 00:17:59.599 --> 00:18:03.599 front of both of those apps Engine X or something like that, where we'd 263 00:18:03.599 --> 00:18:07.759 say, oh, this sprints, We've migrated these pages and so these pages, 264 00:18:07.799 --> 00:18:11.079 so now go over to the new system that do not dyn ae core 265 00:18:11.079 --> 00:18:14.960 app and the old pages go over there. So it was a very much 266 00:18:15.000 --> 00:18:18.519 a you know, very manual process to be able to do all these sort 267 00:18:18.559 --> 00:18:22.319 of things. But starting with done at six, Microsoft introduced a set of 268 00:18:22.359 --> 00:18:30.559 tools to make that automatic switching between applications seamless and transparent and so much easier. 269 00:18:30.759 --> 00:18:36.000 Yeah, now do you share the state with those two? Oh things? 270 00:18:36.079 --> 00:18:41.240 Just that must be a bear. Okay, well let me explain first 271 00:18:41.400 --> 00:18:45.400 the way that that's automatic switching works. It's it's wild. So I have 272 00:18:45.480 --> 00:18:51.599 you all had folks talk about YARP before, yet another reverse products So yeah, 273 00:18:51.759 --> 00:18:55.599 I think maybe Mark Rendel talked about it a little bit, but I 274 00:18:55.599 --> 00:18:57.519 don't remember. Yeah, that makes sense because he has a tool as well 275 00:18:57.519 --> 00:19:02.680 to make this migration easer. So YARP is yet another reverse proxy, and 276 00:19:02.839 --> 00:19:07.000 it's a reverse proxy that can be hosted in the asp net core pipeline. 277 00:19:07.440 --> 00:19:10.599 So it's kind of cool. So you can actually self host a reverse proxy 278 00:19:11.559 --> 00:19:15.720 and that's exactly what this tooling does. It's the the name is kind of 279 00:19:15.480 --> 00:19:18.799 strange, but its system Web adapters is the name of it. But the 280 00:19:18.839 --> 00:19:25.279 idea is that you have a new asp net core application and that hosts a 281 00:19:25.400 --> 00:19:32.960 reverse proxy and request will come in initially to your dot asp net core application, 282 00:19:33.880 --> 00:19:40.240 and if that application cannot handle that request successfully, like the controller doesn't 283 00:19:40.279 --> 00:19:45.200 exist, it will automatically forward that request over to your asp net full framework 284 00:19:45.240 --> 00:19:52.160 application. So if I migrate a controller from four eight to asp net Core, 285 00:19:52.440 --> 00:19:56.039 well suddenly that application can handle that request and is going to serve it 286 00:19:56.160 --> 00:20:00.240 up. But if the can't, the controller is missing, just seamlessly forwards 287 00:20:00.279 --> 00:20:06.200 that request and serves the response out over to Yeah, so it still serves 288 00:20:06.200 --> 00:20:08.960 a response through the aspnt core application, but it's just proxy. We're doing 289 00:20:10.039 --> 00:20:14.279 reverse proxy to your full framework application. So I guess what I'm getting at 290 00:20:14.359 --> 00:20:18.519 is there's no real shared state except for you know, data persistence or whatever 291 00:20:18.759 --> 00:20:26.680 that exists between those two things. Is there because they're completely different. Well, 292 00:20:26.799 --> 00:20:30.599 okay, so there's going there has to be some shared states, so 293 00:20:30.640 --> 00:20:34.119 things like authentication. Yeah, both applications have to know that you're logged in 294 00:20:34.279 --> 00:20:40.799 right, So really, depending on your authentication scheme, you have to decide 295 00:20:40.960 --> 00:20:42.920 how are you going to share that state. So if you're in an external 296 00:20:44.039 --> 00:20:48.559 sso then you just configure those applications to be able to read that token effectively. 297 00:20:48.880 --> 00:20:51.799 That's not a big game. Yeah, they both have rights to that 298 00:20:51.880 --> 00:20:55.319 token. We weren't doing SS. We were doing cookie off that was self 299 00:20:55.319 --> 00:21:03.160 hosted A yeah, yeah, yeah, so you've ever had to do effective 300 00:21:03.319 --> 00:21:06.920 well how do I do do you do SSO with cookies? Do you have 301 00:21:07.000 --> 00:21:10.480 both applications to be able to read the data protection certificate and be able to 302 00:21:10.519 --> 00:21:12.519 be able to read that cookie? So that that is actually the way we 303 00:21:12.559 --> 00:21:17.279 went was like, well, we have access to that data protection certificate, 304 00:21:17.720 --> 00:21:22.240 so what we'll do is have they're I mean they're both initially hosted on the 305 00:21:22.279 --> 00:21:26.319 same machine, Like they're just two I S Web applications self hosted, so 306 00:21:26.319 --> 00:21:30.960 they both had access to the certificates. So we said, okay, the 307 00:21:30.200 --> 00:21:34.400 dot net framework application is going to continue to do the log in and log 308 00:21:34.440 --> 00:21:38.880 out and set the cookie, and then the dot net core application is then 309 00:21:38.920 --> 00:21:44.720 able to read that cookie and be able to set the principal roles all that 310 00:21:44.759 --> 00:21:48.799 sort of junk, and so that just worked fine that it could read the 311 00:21:48.839 --> 00:21:52.519 information and effectively you're you're putting a flag in the ground that says, here's 312 00:21:52.559 --> 00:21:57.240 our cut across is when we're going to change the dot net framework app to 313 00:21:57.680 --> 00:22:03.839 give up authentication. But for now, yeah, that was actually the last 314 00:22:03.839 --> 00:22:07.079 thing we change, was like, the very last thing we migrated was loging. 315 00:22:07.200 --> 00:22:08.880 Okay, now now we have to worry about how do we share you 316 00:22:08.920 --> 00:22:17.599 know, all that sort of stuff next with session session states, so we 317 00:22:17.599 --> 00:22:21.119 we I mean, that's another shared state that the dot net core application has 318 00:22:21.160 --> 00:22:23.920 to read and write session. The donet framework application has to read and write 319 00:22:23.920 --> 00:22:27.000 session. So how do you share those two? How do you share that 320 00:22:27.039 --> 00:22:36.119 sort of shared state? Now, unfortunately, this sequel schema of session is 321 00:22:36.119 --> 00:22:37.839 not the same on both sides, So it's not like you can say, 322 00:22:38.200 --> 00:22:42.279 well, I'm already doing a web farm scenario on donint framework that uses seql 323 00:22:42.359 --> 00:22:47.519 as of backing storage. Those schemas are completely different, so they can't read 324 00:22:47.519 --> 00:22:51.359 and write the same like sort of back end database of session states. Of 325 00:22:51.440 --> 00:22:56.960 course, so what the system web adapters does is for any kind of sort 326 00:22:56.960 --> 00:23:00.839 of shared state that you have between those two and session is just one example 327 00:23:00.880 --> 00:23:07.319 of that is the system web adapters will expose an API indpoint in the Dinet 328 00:23:07.319 --> 00:23:11.799 framework application via middleware like o in or whatever, and then when the Donet 329 00:23:11.880 --> 00:23:15.440 core application needs to, like, oh, I need to read sessions state 330 00:23:15.559 --> 00:23:19.119 instead of reading its own thing, it will make a API call to get 331 00:23:19.160 --> 00:23:23.400 that stuff from the Dinat framework application. And then you just have these like 332 00:23:23.480 --> 00:23:27.359 interface adapters that you're talking to to get that data out. But all like 333 00:23:27.400 --> 00:23:30.279 the that makes sense, all the API stuff, like if there's an API 334 00:23:30.359 --> 00:23:36.240 token, apikey thing to secure it, it's not exposed to the outside world 335 00:23:36.279 --> 00:23:41.759 all that sort of junk, but it's now just exposing quote just exposing APIs 336 00:23:41.880 --> 00:23:44.480 to be able to get that sort of data back out. Again. What's 337 00:23:44.559 --> 00:23:48.559 kind of funny and ironic about this scenario is that all the things that Microsoft 338 00:23:48.559 --> 00:23:56.680 has done in aspn AT to make it easier for development now becomes like a 339 00:23:56.839 --> 00:24:00.200 problem when you're trying to have two of these things exists at the same time 340 00:24:00.319 --> 00:24:04.960 sharing state, right, I mean like session state, the session bag, 341 00:24:06.119 --> 00:24:10.720 you know, the application bag. All that stuff makes it easy for developers. 342 00:24:10.759 --> 00:24:18.480 It's like boom on one system. But now that that simplicity that was 343 00:24:18.759 --> 00:24:22.960 you know, making it easy is now hard. Yeah exactly. But luckily, 344 00:24:23.000 --> 00:24:26.839 like they they recognize that and they've offered up solutions to be able to 345 00:24:26.880 --> 00:24:33.400 do so. But not everything had a solution available for us. So a 346 00:24:33.400 --> 00:24:37.400 good example is like shared code, like how do you share code between these 347 00:24:37.440 --> 00:24:44.240 two applications and so for that stuff? Yeah exactly, So we pull things 348 00:24:44.319 --> 00:24:48.119 up into a shared library that is now you know, dot net standard probably 349 00:24:48.200 --> 00:24:52.839 so that both can can be able to use it. And so for business 350 00:24:52.839 --> 00:24:56.319 logic that's pretty straightforward to do. For U I logic, there is no 351 00:24:56.440 --> 00:25:00.440 sharing. Like we had a lot of copy paste, like any kind of 352 00:25:02.759 --> 00:25:07.039 razor helper, things like those APIs are just different. We had a lot 353 00:25:07.039 --> 00:25:12.240 of controller library like based controller classes. Those are just different name spaces. 354 00:25:12.279 --> 00:25:15.359 We can't share those, so we just copy paste whatever. Are these that 355 00:25:15.720 --> 00:25:18.240 much different for people actually using them? If the names are different, who 356 00:25:18.319 --> 00:25:22.440 cares? But is it hard to keep both in your head? No? 357 00:25:22.519 --> 00:25:26.359 No, Luckily, Like from the application developer perspective, it's really just changing 358 00:25:26.440 --> 00:25:30.519 name spaces. Like there's slight you know, there's ie action results versus action 359 00:25:30.640 --> 00:25:33.920 results. That's very little. But from like you could blink at it and 360 00:25:34.000 --> 00:25:37.880 be like, well that's almost the same. But there were like actual missing 361 00:25:37.880 --> 00:25:45.039 features an aspn at core from from aspn at four or five, and a 362 00:25:45.079 --> 00:25:48.160 good example that was bundling and menification. That is not a thing that exists 363 00:25:48.240 --> 00:25:52.119 an aspnt core. That does exist an asp dot net and it will never 364 00:25:52.160 --> 00:25:56.720 exist an aspn at core. Like they're they're not any bundling and menification business. 365 00:25:56.119 --> 00:26:00.279 Like before Microsoft was like yes there are are like node ways of doing 366 00:26:00.279 --> 00:26:03.319 this, but you know, we'll provide a way of doing it. Now 367 00:26:03.319 --> 00:26:07.000 today they're like, uh, this is a solved problem, but solved by 368 00:26:07.039 --> 00:26:10.039 not us, So use that thing. And like I said, this is 369 00:26:10.039 --> 00:26:12.400 a solved problem, Like why would they build their own, right? You 370 00:26:12.480 --> 00:26:15.400 just go out and get the best one you can, don't You don't need 371 00:26:15.440 --> 00:26:18.319 to make another one, just another thing to support. And we so we 372 00:26:18.359 --> 00:26:22.119 looked at that. So anytime we hit these sort of things that there is 373 00:26:22.200 --> 00:26:26.880 no direct migration path, we have to decide what is that target and state 374 00:26:26.880 --> 00:26:30.039 that we want to get to. So bundling and menification was an example that 375 00:26:30.519 --> 00:26:34.000 Okay, yes there are there are like there are people that solve this problem, 376 00:26:34.079 --> 00:26:37.400 but they're all in the node world. Yeah, And so we had 377 00:26:37.400 --> 00:26:41.240 asked ourselves, Okay, do we want to introduce this other build and asset 378 00:26:41.319 --> 00:26:47.079 pipeline that is totally different than what we have today or is there something else 379 00:26:47.079 --> 00:26:51.279 can have broadcha gap. So we actually went with a tool called web Optimizer, 380 00:26:51.680 --> 00:26:56.960 which is very similar to the asp dot net for eight bundling of medification 381 00:26:56.119 --> 00:26:59.960 but for acep net core. Okay, so if you have very simple bundler 382 00:27:00.079 --> 00:27:03.240 and menification needs, that can do the trick. So we saw that like, 383 00:27:03.279 --> 00:27:07.319 well, okay, maybe the right answer eventually is to use a true 384 00:27:07.359 --> 00:27:11.960 bundling and menification pipeline, but for now, let's just kind of go easy 385 00:27:12.000 --> 00:27:17.599 mode and do something that is solving the problem in a very similar way than 386 00:27:17.680 --> 00:27:21.799 what existed on a HPNT four eight. Again, it sounds like in a 387 00:27:21.839 --> 00:27:26.359 later version we can optimize us further, but for now there is menification and 388 00:27:26.440 --> 00:27:30.519 bundling in a pipeline, so close enough exactly. And we saw that the 389 00:27:30.559 --> 00:27:34.359 node pipelines would force us to even structure all of our assets differently. Wow, 390 00:27:34.480 --> 00:27:38.160 So we thought, okay, like it won't be exactly the same. 391 00:27:38.200 --> 00:27:41.279 So we even did tricks like in visual studio you can you know, right 392 00:27:41.319 --> 00:27:47.039 click files and say add as link, so the file actually exists in one 393 00:27:47.039 --> 00:27:48.920 place on disc. And so we did that a lot for these sort of 394 00:27:49.000 --> 00:27:53.880 static assets that would we would automatically add all these folders as as links, 395 00:27:55.359 --> 00:27:59.000 so that the file existed in one place on disc, but had to be 396 00:27:59.039 --> 00:28:03.440 structured maybe slightly differently on either side. Yeah, it's very cool. Yeah, 397 00:28:03.480 --> 00:28:07.640 that's really interesting. But and he also speaks to there are different philosophies 398 00:28:07.640 --> 00:28:11.400 of software development, and you know, don't be too wound up about it, 399 00:28:11.440 --> 00:28:14.759 like that's okay. Just if you're going to change philosophies, you have 400 00:28:14.799 --> 00:28:17.240 to learn a bunch of stuff. It was all those sort of like micro 401 00:28:17.359 --> 00:28:22.519 architecture decisions of okay, what is the shortest path to get us to production 402 00:28:23.000 --> 00:28:26.640 versus where do you want to go? And is the eventual in state on 403 00:28:26.839 --> 00:28:30.759 the way to get us in getting us to production now? And if not, 404 00:28:30.920 --> 00:28:33.799 okay, then we have to make a decision do we take that chance 405 00:28:33.880 --> 00:28:37.920 now or do we just you know, go sidestep a little bit and say 406 00:28:37.160 --> 00:28:40.480 let's just get something that can work for now, because our end goal is 407 00:28:40.480 --> 00:28:44.799 to have the whole app and production on Dot eight and Jimmy, I got 408 00:28:44.839 --> 00:28:52.039 a break for one moment for those very important message and we're back. It's 409 00:28:52.119 --> 00:28:56.440 Dona Rock's Amerchard Campbell. That's Carl Franklin Hey recording in twenty twenty four. 410 00:28:56.440 --> 00:28:59.519 Who would have thunk it? Who thunk? And we're here with our friend 411 00:28:59.559 --> 00:29:03.440 Jimmy but Guard talking a bit about his experiences migrating a dot net app, 412 00:29:03.759 --> 00:29:07.640 a framework app, a four point eight app up to dot net core. 413 00:29:07.160 --> 00:29:11.359 I guess originally targeting six, but heck, here's eight, might as well 414 00:29:11.400 --> 00:29:15.400 go. There was there any real differences between six and eight? Did you 415 00:29:15.440 --> 00:29:18.799 stop by seven on the way? Was that a factor? So one of 416 00:29:18.839 --> 00:29:22.680 our one of my philosophies for just getting this deployed out is I I wanted 417 00:29:22.720 --> 00:29:26.440 to get to production as early as possible. So for us, that meant 418 00:29:26.799 --> 00:29:33.079 our very first deployment was a completely blank dot net six app that did nothing 419 00:29:33.480 --> 00:29:37.519 but proxy straight over to the full down that framework did. That totally makes 420 00:29:37.559 --> 00:29:41.240 sense, it does in hindsighted, but that's that is one of those like 421 00:29:41.319 --> 00:29:45.240 okay, do do we need to do we have something there that does anything 422 00:29:45.519 --> 00:29:53.160 or or what? And because just getting that first dot net six app required 423 00:29:53.200 --> 00:29:56.759 us to do all the build and deploy pipelines and I setup, like we'll 424 00:29:56.799 --> 00:30:02.400 just do that. It'll be a like a foot hold on the beachhead and 425 00:30:02.440 --> 00:30:06.119 then we can start to build on top of that. So that's our first 426 00:30:06.160 --> 00:30:08.359 thing out. Yeah, it's a Hello World, right, Like you got 427 00:30:08.400 --> 00:30:11.039 to get there one way or there going to do that. So the fact 428 00:30:11.039 --> 00:30:15.839 that you're only doing that first just you know, cuts away the other confusion 429 00:30:15.839 --> 00:30:19.880 of well, why isn't that page working? Is it the page or is 430 00:30:19.920 --> 00:30:26.960 it the proxy or is it the authentication engine or is it the session issue? 431 00:30:26.960 --> 00:30:29.079 Like there's a ton of the things that canna be wrong. Have as 432 00:30:29.119 --> 00:30:33.640 few things wrong as possible. And the question of like which dot net version 433 00:30:33.640 --> 00:30:37.319 of target was also a challenging one because there's a trade off between from looking 434 00:30:37.359 --> 00:30:41.720 at your dependencies what is supported on both frameworks, because your business logic if 435 00:30:41.720 --> 00:30:47.119 it depends on a library that is supported on both sides, it's good. 436 00:30:47.200 --> 00:30:51.200 But sometimes it's not supported to the latest and greatest framework, so sometimes you 437 00:30:51.200 --> 00:30:55.839 have to upgrade to an earlier version and then migrate up with upwards from there. 438 00:30:56.119 --> 00:31:00.240 So we actually had that with we were looking at asp at seven that 439 00:31:00.359 --> 00:31:03.759 included a feature that we wanted to use, which was output cashing. Output 440 00:31:03.759 --> 00:31:08.400 cashing was only introduced with ESPN at seven and our system used that, so 441 00:31:08.599 --> 00:31:11.039 like, well, we want to use that, but then our dependencies didn't 442 00:31:11.079 --> 00:31:15.519 support all the way up to there, so like, okay, do we 443 00:31:15.599 --> 00:31:18.839 just like ignore some of the pages or nope, or maybe don't have output 444 00:31:18.880 --> 00:31:22.599 casing for now and just wait on that until we're fully on. And then 445 00:31:22.640 --> 00:31:30.920 we introduced opput caching. We actually found like someone at Microsoft backpowarded through this 446 00:31:30.039 --> 00:31:34.640 new get package output casing with a label do not use this. This is 447 00:31:34.720 --> 00:31:38.240 for you know. We just found like, well, we'll just go in. 448 00:31:38.480 --> 00:31:42.000 So it definitely is an analysis part at the beginning to look at your 449 00:31:42.039 --> 00:31:48.680 dependencies to understand what is what is possible for you to migrate to support both 450 00:31:48.920 --> 00:31:52.480 frameworks initially, and maybe that's just a first step is to migrate something to 451 00:31:52.480 --> 00:31:56.480 a little bit older and then now that you're on net core or whatever, 452 00:31:56.559 --> 00:31:59.799 then you can start to migrate upwards from there. Well, I think I 453 00:31:59.799 --> 00:32:04.039 found out a Sebastian Ross output cashing yep, and it's output cashing asp dot 454 00:32:04.079 --> 00:32:12.039 net core six. Warning this package is not supported exactly, but he's definitely 455 00:32:12.039 --> 00:32:14.400 done us a favor, Right, this is exactly what this is for. 456 00:32:14.480 --> 00:32:17.799 It's a bridge to get to six with that feature and knowing you're as soon 457 00:32:17.799 --> 00:32:21.720 as possible, you're going to move to Sabbath. Sapic cashing was one of 458 00:32:21.759 --> 00:32:24.400 those things like it is it is kind of shared state, but not really 459 00:32:24.880 --> 00:32:30.759 like if the two applications have two caches with the same data, you know 460 00:32:30.000 --> 00:32:35.440 whatever, Like that's good enough. Yeah, it's not shared. It is 461 00:32:35.519 --> 00:32:38.720 persistent, but it's not shared across pages, so really session state. And 462 00:32:38.759 --> 00:32:43.680 then the next thing we hit was hang fire. That was another big hurdle 463 00:32:43.720 --> 00:32:46.519 for us was to get hang fire being able to be used on both sides. 464 00:32:46.759 --> 00:32:50.559 So what's hang fire? Yeah, what is that? Oh? Hang 465 00:32:50.680 --> 00:32:57.599 fire is a it's a the background task runner for ASP dot net and ASP 466 00:32:57.680 --> 00:33:01.440 dot net core. And in terms of uh background tasks, it's not like 467 00:33:01.559 --> 00:33:06.640 thread dot start or thread dot run. It's persistent, so it's able to 468 00:33:07.200 --> 00:33:12.160 effectively have like a like a queuing capability or state capturing capability. So if 469 00:33:12.160 --> 00:33:15.240 I want to say, send this email, but don't send it now, 470 00:33:15.599 --> 00:33:19.039 send it you know in a background whatever, but something they can actually be 471 00:33:19.119 --> 00:33:22.759 retried and like remembered. So hang fire is a library that lets you do 472 00:33:22.799 --> 00:33:27.519 that also does things like scheduled jobs to so like it's cron but it's all 473 00:33:27.839 --> 00:33:31.079 it's all self hosted inside asp dot net and asp dot i core. And 474 00:33:31.119 --> 00:33:34.960 if you haven't had the hang fire folks on to talk to them, that's 475 00:33:34.960 --> 00:33:39.519 a that's a fantastic library if you want to do like async background tasks in 476 00:33:39.559 --> 00:33:44.480 a more robust manner. Nice so noted. So one of the challenging things 477 00:33:44.559 --> 00:33:50.039 is and hang fire you you can define cues of work to say go go 478 00:33:50.119 --> 00:33:53.000 do this work sometime in the future, and then it supports all sorts of 479 00:33:53.079 --> 00:33:58.440 cuing mechanisms, including sql uh. One of the cool things that does, 480 00:33:58.440 --> 00:34:01.960 though, is you can say I'm in my controller class and I say go 481 00:34:02.000 --> 00:34:05.519 do this work. But the work you're saying to do is to call this 482 00:34:05.599 --> 00:34:08.639 function that's also inside the controller class. So it's very easy to say, 483 00:34:09.199 --> 00:34:13.559 you know, just extract out a method and say just call this one method, 484 00:34:13.599 --> 00:34:16.039 but call it, you know, call it offline in the background. 485 00:34:16.960 --> 00:34:21.039 So it's just a more robust way of doing thread dot run or whatever. 486 00:34:21.800 --> 00:34:24.360 But it's it's able to keep it, keep track of it. The way 487 00:34:24.360 --> 00:34:29.079 it does this though, is it notes the class and type of the method 488 00:34:29.119 --> 00:34:31.360 that you want to run and then also captures the state you pass into it 489 00:34:31.559 --> 00:34:36.960 and like some blob to be able to use reflection to load it up and 490 00:34:36.960 --> 00:34:42.239 then call it. But that implies that that the thing that is going to 491 00:34:42.519 --> 00:34:45.880 sort of DQ and start the work has to have access to that class and 492 00:34:45.920 --> 00:34:50.880 that type, and it's not something that's completely obvious unless you understand the internals 493 00:34:50.920 --> 00:34:54.440 of this hand fire system. So we realize that, Okay, if I 494 00:34:57.079 --> 00:35:01.000 try to start the job on the ASPNT four or five side and I try 495 00:35:01.039 --> 00:35:06.360 to execute the job over on the donet core side, it may not have 496 00:35:06.440 --> 00:35:10.599 access to that job code. So we have to decide do I refactor these 497 00:35:10.679 --> 00:35:15.719 jobs out into my common business logic so that both sides have access to it. 498 00:35:15.679 --> 00:35:19.000 We wind up not doing that. We wind up doing it to say, 499 00:35:19.960 --> 00:35:23.000 we will define queues one queue for the don net four eight side, 500 00:35:23.039 --> 00:35:27.039 one queue for the dot net core side or dont six seven eight side, 501 00:35:27.400 --> 00:35:31.719 and then when I need to n Q a job, the on qu or 502 00:35:31.760 --> 00:35:36.480 has to know where does that code live. Does it live on the dot 503 00:35:36.559 --> 00:35:38.559 net eight side or does it live on the donet four five side, and 504 00:35:38.639 --> 00:35:42.719 what they let us do is just say, for the don net four five 505 00:35:42.800 --> 00:35:49.840 side, we will que it can it can, it can exit. It 506 00:35:49.880 --> 00:35:53.039 can start and run jobs on its side, same side on the donat eight 507 00:35:53.079 --> 00:35:55.559 side, it can start and run jobs, and vice versa. So I 508 00:35:55.599 --> 00:36:00.960 can have dot net four eight kickoff jobs, dot net core and dot net 509 00:36:00.960 --> 00:36:06.119 core kickoff jobs and four eight depending where that job logic actually lived. And 510 00:36:06.159 --> 00:36:09.039 so over time we over to migrate those jobs over to dot nets eight, 511 00:36:09.480 --> 00:36:14.639 but along the way not sort of force ourselves to have to refacture all that 512 00:36:14.719 --> 00:36:16.519 job logic, because it was it was pretty complicated, and we said, 513 00:36:16.760 --> 00:36:20.320 it's going to be too much work to try to pull all this stuff out 514 00:36:20.760 --> 00:36:25.039 do some common location when today there were just private methods on a controller class. 515 00:36:25.400 --> 00:36:28.599 It'd be a lot of work to try to pull those out to somewhere 516 00:36:28.599 --> 00:36:30.920 else. And we realized like there were there's a lot of work to win 517 00:36:30.960 --> 00:36:36.440 into getting those things hooked up appropriately. But just another one of those things 518 00:36:36.440 --> 00:36:42.480 that I have shared states, shared kind of background resources between these two systems, 519 00:36:42.880 --> 00:36:45.599 and I have to figure out how do I effectively get these two systems 520 00:36:45.639 --> 00:36:50.280 to kind of play nice with each other over time. Yeah, and this 521 00:36:50.440 --> 00:36:52.320 is all part of that bridge. But and you did get to the full 522 00:36:52.360 --> 00:36:54.880 cut across. Like you said, you get to a point where you've replaced 523 00:36:54.920 --> 00:37:00.440 everything, like how many how many deployees? Is that? How many interimsps? 524 00:37:00.039 --> 00:37:04.840 You know? Well, so the organization that I was working with was 525 00:37:04.840 --> 00:37:07.360 doing weekly deploys, and so we wanted to keep to that, like every 526 00:37:07.440 --> 00:37:09.960 week we would deploy the pages and we have migrated all the way out to 527 00:37:10.000 --> 00:37:15.000 production. We just didn't want to have this big bang. Okay, now 528 00:37:15.039 --> 00:37:16.480 all the pages are over, Now it's time to cut over. There was 529 00:37:16.519 --> 00:37:22.840 no cutover. It was just a slow, slowly like constricting it down and 530 00:37:22.880 --> 00:37:28.800 down and down until the very end. I guess I didn't talk about migrating 531 00:37:28.800 --> 00:37:31.320 individual pages, but that was pretty straightforward. You basically copy and paste the 532 00:37:31.320 --> 00:37:36.920 code and fix the compile errors. If the dependencies weren't working, well you 533 00:37:37.360 --> 00:37:39.679 go pull in those dependencies. And then if those dependencies had to be hooked 534 00:37:39.719 --> 00:37:43.920 up via dependency injection, well, now we go ahead and can figure the 535 00:37:44.039 --> 00:37:47.840 new DEI container to wire up all those dependencies. So it's very much incremental, 536 00:37:47.920 --> 00:37:52.000 just pull things over as we went and then if we saw extra problems 537 00:37:52.159 --> 00:37:55.599 cropped up, we would pull those in, but otherwise it really was just 538 00:37:55.639 --> 00:38:02.800 like fixing namespace errors and copying and pasting UI code. But we would deploy 539 00:38:02.880 --> 00:38:07.199 every week the new controllers and pages that had been pulled over, and even 540 00:38:07.239 --> 00:38:12.840 our stories inside of Jira were every story was migrate this controller. Right, 541 00:38:12.960 --> 00:38:17.400 so we knew we had a clear sort of burned down, which is one 542 00:38:17.440 --> 00:38:22.599 controller at a time, just kind of steadily chopping them, chopping away at 543 00:38:22.599 --> 00:38:25.000 it, until eventually there were no more controllers left, and the only thing 544 00:38:25.000 --> 00:38:29.519 we had was an empty an empty application that was still deployed all the way 545 00:38:29.559 --> 00:38:32.079 to production, right, but nothing in it. Well, yeah except for 546 00:38:32.119 --> 00:38:36.679 the olag and controller, like the authentication that was the last one. Except 547 00:38:36.679 --> 00:38:39.559 the log and controller, of course. Yeah, And that's fair. I 548 00:38:39.599 --> 00:38:44.719 wonder if you sort of nailed down all the hard bits early, like took 549 00:38:44.800 --> 00:38:46.639 spikes on stuff like output, cash you and so forth, or did you 550 00:38:46.800 --> 00:38:50.679 find a few as you work through some of these controllers you're like, oh, 551 00:38:50.719 --> 00:38:52.920 how are we going to do this? We had, so we tried 552 00:38:52.920 --> 00:38:58.320 to get a decent idea up front of cataloging, and it's pretty easy to 553 00:38:58.320 --> 00:39:00.000 do, like you go to the global asax right, look at your middleware, 554 00:39:00.039 --> 00:39:04.000 that being what is being pulled in there this application. I was using 555 00:39:04.039 --> 00:39:06.880 Owen, so we looked at Owen startup and of course webcinfig right, because 556 00:39:06.880 --> 00:39:08.800 there's so much junk in there. We just looked at Okay, all these 557 00:39:08.800 --> 00:39:14.840 things have features that exist an asp net core more or less. So what 558 00:39:14.960 --> 00:39:16.280 is the sort of migration path? Well, we knew we were going to 559 00:39:16.320 --> 00:39:20.000 get it all. So one example is hang fire. We hit that like, 560 00:39:20.119 --> 00:39:22.800 oh right, we get an error running the job. It's because it 561 00:39:22.880 --> 00:39:25.400 can't run the job. The job is over there, not over here, 562 00:39:25.920 --> 00:39:29.360 So we'd have to do you know, okay, let's pause, do a 563 00:39:29.400 --> 00:39:34.719 spike, and then we wind up doing things like well, let's defer. 564 00:39:35.280 --> 00:39:38.039 Once we found that that was an issue just prioritization, we deferred all of 565 00:39:38.079 --> 00:39:42.000 the controllers that did that to say, let's just do them later because we 566 00:39:42.039 --> 00:39:44.480 need to figure this out first and work on some other ones that don't have 567 00:39:44.559 --> 00:39:47.719 that sort of dependency going on there. That's that's legit, and it just 568 00:39:47.760 --> 00:39:52.840 feels normal. But I really appreciate it about this whole conversation, Jimmy, 569 00:39:52.920 --> 00:39:57.000 is that you didn't go for the ideal case on anything like, it's like, 570 00:39:57.039 --> 00:39:59.039 well, that will be good enough for now. We'll be able to 571 00:39:59.039 --> 00:40:02.800 optimize that later. That'll solve that one. This is an interim step and 572 00:40:04.079 --> 00:40:06.639 you know, and you're going to have some glitches along the way. It 573 00:40:07.000 --> 00:40:08.920 doesn't sound like it was a perfect migration. You had to fight through some 574 00:40:08.960 --> 00:40:13.480 stuff now. So we just made sure that in our schedule. You know, 575 00:40:13.480 --> 00:40:15.880 we didn't try to solve all the world's problems up front, Like the 576 00:40:15.920 --> 00:40:20.840 big spike we did up front was just this whole YARP system of adapters because 577 00:40:21.079 --> 00:40:23.440 that had just come out like a month before we started the project. I 578 00:40:23.440 --> 00:40:27.280 was like, oh, this is how we can do it. That's great. 579 00:40:27.400 --> 00:40:29.559 I was a frame or easier, but we had to figure out, 580 00:40:29.679 --> 00:40:32.440 okay, is it as easy as we think it is? And for the 581 00:40:32.440 --> 00:40:35.760 most part it was, except for like the shared state, you know, 582 00:40:35.800 --> 00:40:39.119 the hard problems authentication whatever, but for the like just normal pages, like 583 00:40:39.199 --> 00:40:45.400 it was even things like signalre it worked between those two applications. I was 584 00:40:45.480 --> 00:40:49.440 like, wow that just as long as they can talk to protocol, that's 585 00:40:49.440 --> 00:40:52.800 how signal are supposed to work. It was able to proxy through just fine 586 00:40:52.800 --> 00:40:58.719 to the done framework application. Right before Christmas, I upgraded a customer's website, 587 00:40:58.760 --> 00:41:00.719 a Blazer site that I had built and dot net six and upgraded to 588 00:41:00.800 --> 00:41:07.039 dot net eight, and that exactly the same. I mean, most of 589 00:41:07.079 --> 00:41:12.159 the stuff just worked. There was there's you know, the obvious things, 590 00:41:12.280 --> 00:41:15.800 you know with Blazer, there's some big changes and stuff, and you know, 591 00:41:15.960 --> 00:41:21.559 things that come out of program cs that were there before, things that 592 00:41:21.599 --> 00:41:24.199 go in updating all oh my god, updating all the new Gap packages. 593 00:41:25.480 --> 00:41:30.480 Yeah, that's I mean that was the very first thing, you know, 594 00:41:30.039 --> 00:41:34.599 and then reformatting. But you know, as I said, I discovered some 595 00:41:34.719 --> 00:41:39.440 technical debt in there. This was definitely a project that I started and started 596 00:41:39.480 --> 00:41:44.199 the customer down the road, and then they kind of took it from there. 597 00:41:45.000 --> 00:41:49.119 And I wasn't like a babysitter on the project, right and I'm discovering 598 00:41:49.159 --> 00:41:52.800 all sorts of weird things. They just found ways to make stuff work that 599 00:41:52.119 --> 00:41:57.559 come with consequences. Yeah, yeah, well, just it works. It's 600 00:41:57.599 --> 00:42:01.880 great, you know, it works, but it's not great. Great. 601 00:42:01.920 --> 00:42:06.519 We definitely hit a bunch of things. It was just it had been a 602 00:42:06.519 --> 00:42:08.840 while since I've been in like deeply involved in dot net four eight and a 603 00:42:08.920 --> 00:42:14.800 SPNT four eight. I just forgot how many things were fixed and ASPN net 604 00:42:14.800 --> 00:42:16.840 core, so there was a there was so much code I got to just 605 00:42:16.880 --> 00:42:22.039 delete. That was just you know, infrastructure wiring of stuff that is now 606 00:42:22.119 --> 00:42:27.119 just services dot blah. I just it's just there and for me, so 607 00:42:27.159 --> 00:42:31.639 there's you know a bunch of filters owen stuff that just went away and made 608 00:42:31.679 --> 00:42:36.239 me so happy. Oh the webcon figure, Yeah, that just that was 609 00:42:36.280 --> 00:42:37.960 all code. Now it's it was. It was beautiful. It's great, 610 00:42:38.519 --> 00:42:43.960 yeah, it's it's it's profound. But I appreciate that. The core idea 611 00:42:44.000 --> 00:42:49.119 here was no dead drop. Start with YARP so that you have the new 612 00:42:49.199 --> 00:42:52.159 a blank new app that's just redirecting everything to the old app. And then 613 00:42:52.599 --> 00:42:58.039 I mean my instinate would say, now pick the least important thing and build 614 00:42:58.119 --> 00:43:01.599 it first in the new app and see if that works like a min's screen. 615 00:43:01.960 --> 00:43:06.960 Yeah, so that was that's that's what we wound up doing, is 616 00:43:07.000 --> 00:43:09.079 like is it was the I forget it was, but with something the homepage 617 00:43:09.159 --> 00:43:13.519 is something that had like nothing on it, and we knew like that. 618 00:43:13.519 --> 00:43:15.679 That first one though, took a lot, because that meant we had to 619 00:43:15.719 --> 00:43:20.840 have styling, we had to have layouts, we had to have all the 620 00:43:20.880 --> 00:43:23.800 dependencies hooked up. So yeah, we picked the dumbest page possible to start 621 00:43:23.840 --> 00:43:28.159 with. Knowing that, okay, now we got to get like all the 622 00:43:28.679 --> 00:43:35.079 all the very application company specific gumming gum you know, to glue all together. 623 00:43:35.440 --> 00:43:37.360 That has to come along with that. So we're like, we'll just 624 00:43:37.360 --> 00:43:39.440 pick something dumb to make it simple for the first step, because then you 625 00:43:39.559 --> 00:43:44.960 focused on those gubbins, right, like that, the styling stuff, like 626 00:43:45.000 --> 00:43:47.079 all of that bits and pieces, because the page is not the most party, 627 00:43:47.079 --> 00:43:51.400 it's all of that, and again you could get lost in that complexity 628 00:43:51.440 --> 00:43:53.639 all that Ruckus, Yeah, exactly. Gubbins is a good word. I 629 00:43:53.679 --> 00:44:00.920 love that. Thank you John Skate for introducing me to that word web gubbins. 630 00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:05.719 You know, my kids now say ruckus. There's all that in thereat. 631 00:44:06.679 --> 00:44:12.639 It's a good word. H boy, that's it totally makes sense, 632 00:44:12.840 --> 00:44:15.920 like all of these bits and pieces of that's the approach to go through the 633 00:44:15.280 --> 00:44:21.679 different parts and you get to a good place eventually. So at a year, 634 00:44:21.880 --> 00:44:24.320 you figure, did you take a year? Oh no, no, 635 00:44:24.320 --> 00:44:30.000 no, Like it was a year of my life just dealing with several of 636 00:44:30.039 --> 00:44:31.639 their apps. So we the first the one we migrated, was done in 637 00:44:31.679 --> 00:44:37.199 about four months, and that was I don't know, one hundred two hundred 638 00:44:37.199 --> 00:44:42.480 controllers and maybe about five hundred actions or so. But like, once our 639 00:44:42.480 --> 00:44:45.599 team got the hang of doing these pages, they could just like knock them 640 00:44:45.639 --> 00:44:47.280 out. It started to just become like a rhythm that they did the thing 641 00:44:47.360 --> 00:44:51.719 to say that you had the we had the live you know, the living 642 00:44:51.719 --> 00:44:53.920 wiki page that would keep Okay, if you run to X, y Z, 643 00:44:54.519 --> 00:44:59.280 here's how you solve that problem. And then just continually have a little 644 00:44:59.280 --> 00:45:02.440 micro lessons learned as we go, and they just started to really roll once 645 00:45:02.440 --> 00:45:05.760 we got going. Yeah, I bet they got some momentum up, Like 646 00:45:05.840 --> 00:45:08.119 the cadence gets faster and faster as you know where all the bits lie where 647 00:45:08.239 --> 00:45:10.480 Okay, that's how you solve this problem. That's how you solved that problem. 648 00:45:10.599 --> 00:45:14.920 Do you get And yeah, eventually there's not you know, not new 649 00:45:14.960 --> 00:45:16.719 problems to solve anymore. It's just okay, we figured out all the hard 650 00:45:16.719 --> 00:45:20.599 problems. Now it's just copy paste, copy, just co go time. 651 00:45:20.760 --> 00:45:25.079 Yeah. Did are they now better equipped to migrate something else inside the organization? 652 00:45:25.159 --> 00:45:29.559 Like I got to think this is somewhat personal mapping to the way that 653 00:45:29.679 --> 00:45:31.960 company likes to build apps, so that the skill set they now have is 654 00:45:31.960 --> 00:45:36.360 good for their apps, not necessarily good for everybody else's apps. Yeah, 655 00:45:36.400 --> 00:45:38.159 So the next app was was a lot easier because we knew we didn't have 656 00:45:38.199 --> 00:45:42.920 to prototype a lot of stuff, Like we didn't have to prototype the yard 657 00:45:43.000 --> 00:45:45.280 stuff or or understand, well, how do we solve the hang fire session 658 00:45:45.280 --> 00:45:47.800 problem, Like we knew how to do that, So the heame a lot 659 00:45:47.840 --> 00:45:52.000 easier. If they had a giant web form system, though, then like 660 00:45:52.079 --> 00:45:58.679 that's that's totally different. So if you're like Vanilla NBC Vanilla web API, 661 00:45:59.159 --> 00:46:02.519 it's a pretty straight forward activity to do there. I mean, there's always 662 00:46:02.519 --> 00:46:07.360 going to be things like oh gosh, they were using some controller or some 663 00:46:07.000 --> 00:46:12.519 upload control that was was not supported anymore. It last was leaves, Like 664 00:46:12.559 --> 00:46:15.519 in twenty thirteen, I was like, Okay, for this thing, we 665 00:46:15.559 --> 00:46:17.320 need to migrate that thing first. There's always going to be those one offs. 666 00:46:17.320 --> 00:46:21.639 But as a general approach, we knew this was like this was the 667 00:46:21.719 --> 00:46:25.159 way to go, incremental small steps and release as we go. So, 668 00:46:25.320 --> 00:46:29.519 Jimmy, what's next for you? What's in your inbox on my inbox. 669 00:46:29.679 --> 00:46:34.400 Oh gosh, well it's same old, you know, same old, more 670 00:46:34.480 --> 00:46:37.920 modernization, more migrations, more more up upgrades to folks for doing this kind 671 00:46:37.960 --> 00:46:40.920 of thing. So like I kind of learned it once and so I want 672 00:46:40.920 --> 00:46:44.360 to help more folks be able to do this in the future. You could 673 00:46:44.880 --> 00:46:50.320 speaking anywhere coming up. I am albeit to NDC London this month, next 674 00:46:50.320 --> 00:46:53.719 month with all the cool kids. Yeah yeah, I guess, and then 675 00:46:53.920 --> 00:46:58.719 I'm taking a break. Maybe maybe I'll be at the MVP summit. I'm 676 00:46:58.760 --> 00:47:04.280 still deciding in March, take a little break and then do some travel next 677 00:47:04.280 --> 00:47:08.000 to aprilcasts awesome, very good. Well, it's been great talking to you 678 00:47:08.039 --> 00:47:13.800 as always, and I'm happy New Year and we'll see you next time. 679 00:47:13.880 --> 00:47:37.679 To your listener on dot net rocks. Dot net Rocks is brought to you 680 00:47:37.719 --> 00:47:44.039 by Franklin's Net and produced by Pop Studios, a full service audio, video 681 00:47:44.119 --> 00:47:49.039 and post production facility located physically in New London, Connecticut, and of course 682 00:47:49.079 --> 00:47:53.719 in the cloud online at pwop dot com. Visit our website at d O 683 00:47:53.840 --> 00:47:58.880 T N E t R O c k S dot com for RSS feeds, 684 00:47:59.159 --> 00:48:02.840 downloads, mobile apps, comments, and access to the full archives going back 685 00:48:02.880 --> 00:48:07.280 to show number one, recorded in September two thousand and two. And make 686 00:48:07.320 --> 00:48:10.960 sure you check out our sponsors. They keep us in business. Now go 687 00:48:12.000 --> 00:48:22.519 write some code. See you next time. You got jud Middle Vans time then