I'm Casey Tanner and I'm Camille Lewis. And this is safe word. Safe
word is sex therapy unhinged because instead of being a blank slate that's just here
to support you, we're telling you all the details on our own sex lives,
relationships, identities, and more. This isn't sex and it's not therapy,
but we are sex therapists and what you hear today makesite you. Each
week we tackle theme related to sex, relationships, gender and more. This
week we're diving into gender with our guest of Yon Whitney. This week We've
got a surprise in store our amazing guest, Evan. Evan Whitney is a
sexuality du LA, sex educator and sensualist. Since twenty eleven, their work
has focused on decolonizing, unshaming, and liberating sexuality at the intersection of identity,
trauma, healing, pleasure, and embodiment. Evian is the author of
Sensual Self Prompts and Practices for Getting in Touch with your Body, a self
guided journal that will help you prioritize your pleasure and come home to yourself through
your senses. They also host a beloved podcast by the same name for more
about Vian's work. Go to von Whitney dot com or follow them on Instagram
at Von dot Whitney. So Evion, we are so thrilled to have you
here, maybe a little bit anxious or some nervous energy in our virtual studio
today. We cannot believe it. Yeah, You've been an inspiration to me
for a very long time before I ever started my Instagram account, and so
just really it's surreal to have you. Oh, thank you so much.
I'm like so happy to be here and really excited that you all asked me
to join you in this conversation. I'm excited, very good. We're yeah,
we're thrilled, and I love You're a really like somatic, body oriented
approach to pleasure. It's very much where I operate from in my work as
a therapist. So it's really it's great to just see alignment there and the
way that you express yourself. So really really thrilled to have you here.
M thank you. Yeah, I'm like really into the body, Like I'm
really fascinated by it and especially like marrying this study of the body, or
this fascination and deep reverence for the body with sexuality and gender expression. It's
just to me, it's just juicy combo. So I'm really happy to be
here to talk to you all about all of that. Well, to start
out, we wanted to do just a couple of ice breakers with you.
Is that okay? Totally hit me first, consensual way, of course.
So as you know, our show is called Safe Word, and so we
like to ask our guests what your safe word is if you have one.
You know, I'm I'm laughing because you all gave me a little bit of
a preview of what this conversation was going to be. And you told me
that you would be asking me what my safe word is. And I was
like, oh my god, do I have a safe word? So I
asked my partner what is our safe word? Do we have a safe word?
And he was like, oh my god, you don't remember, Like
we've been talking about this, you don't remember. And I was like,
no, no, like I don't remember the safe word. Oh no.
And then he just like said some gobbledegook about like banana mash sandwiches or something
like that, and I was like, oh, you're pulling my Yeah,
he was totally messing with me. So I tell that story to say I
actually don't have a safe word, and I don't know what that says about
me as as a sexuality educator in Dulah, but yeah, I don't.
I don't have one. I wonder if maybe part of it is with you
and your partner partners, that you have other ways of signaling to each other
when something isn't safe that isn't necessarily a code word, I think. So,
I mean, I feel really lucky that I have been in partnership with
my partner for sixteen years and we just know each other, we get each
other, and I think there's a lot of nonverbal cues that he picks up
on and also same with him. So yeah, I think not having a
safe word is a testament to just me feeling really safe in my sexual relationships,
which is great. You know, that's good news. It's beautiful,
that's wonderful news. Yeah. I think that like a safe word can just
be like a sig or attunement, which is what you're speaking about, a
shared language that is communicated through the body, And yeah, that's really lovely.
Yeah, yeah, that's actually making me think about like what happens in
my body, like what my partner might pick up on that might be that
safe word or like safe verbal que and sometimes, I mean, he knows
me so well that there are sometimes where I'm in this space of feeling like
disconnected from my body, or I might be triggered during the act of sex,
and I don't exactly know what he sees, but I have a sense
of what happens in my body, which is like I start to like I
start to leave my body a little bit, and I start to feel disconnected
from the experience, like maybe I'm not fully present to him or whatever we're
doing. And I think that that shows or tracks because he's able to be
like, WHOA, let's pause, are you okay? Are you still here
in the room? Which I really appreciate that he is able to attune himself
to me in that way, because oftentimes I'm just like WHOA, I guess,
oh, I guess I did sort of leave my body in that moment,
or I guess I do need to take a pause and take a moment
to recalibrate this experience and figure out if it works for me. So yeah,
it's I love that invitation to think about like the safe words that come
from the body and not so much from our from our voices or our our
words credible. Maybe we need to start changing this prompt safe for me,
safe signal that. Okay, we've got one more icebreaker. So, with
a gender theme in mind, wanted each of us to answer this question if
your gender was a metaphor, if you have a metaphor for your gender,
what would it be? Either of you could start, Um, I have
something top of mine. But Camille, if you if you want to go,
it's all you, please take it away. Okay. So I was
doing some vision boarding today this morning, and there was a clipping that got
cut out that said eternal yet ephemeral. And I feel like that is the
essence of my gender, eternal yet ephemeral. That is so beautiful, my
cry. It didn't come from me, It came from the clippings. Yeah
yeah, wow, I love that. That came today too, Just in
time, Just in time? Yeah question yeah, really really beautiful. But
Camille Casey, I'd love to hear what yours are. Oh no, if
I can follow competition next, I mean, okay, So I was thinking
about this. My first reaction was dog dad, because when I think of
like a dog dad, there's this very particular image that comes to mine and
something about the energy of that I feel like really captures my gender. But
then I was thinking about a disco ball or just like disco in general,
just the vibe of disco, which is genderless in this way, but also
there are pieces of masculinity, pieces of femininity, a little bit of dancing.
That's that's where I landed. Disco. Yeah, I love that.
I like that too, thank you. I think a few things are coming
up for me, Like one is like a vase or like a shapely vasic.
I'm very into like curvature, Yeah, like flowy vases. So I
feel like maybe that's what's capturing it today or just like in this moment as
I'm thinking about the metaphor, it'll probably change though. Let us know,
it's such a good point that, you know, what captures our attention around
gender today is going to be different than maybe tomorrow or even in an hour.
So let us know what evolve if it evolves through this episode as we
answer these amazing questions. Oh okay, all right, speaking of questions,
should we dive in? Yeah, let's dive in. So our first question
asks can you have feelings of dysphoria without being trans this person says, I'm
a CIS woman and I feel deeply uncomfortable when I feel too mask I would
say yes, I would say I think so. I think that gender dysphoria
isn't solely an experience that trans and gender nonconforming folks feel. And I actually
like the idea that CIS folks would be tapping into gender dysphoria as like,
maybe that will help humanize the gender dysphoria that trans folks feel, and you
know, gender nonconforming people feel of like, yeah, this is a universal
experience, may not be felt in the same or similar ways, but that
it is possible for us to feel a sense of enthusiastic yes and also an
enthusiastic no when it comes to our particular gender expression. So I would say
yes, but I'm curious about what y'all think. I similarly, A'm leaning
towards yes definitely as dysphoria being kind of like a universal, potentially experience.
And it also seems like presentation gender presentation is a question here. I think,
Yeah, I like the idea of of being more humanizing so that it
doesn't have to feel like something that's siloed to a specific group. Or that
you have to have permission to enter dysphoria, that it can just it can
happen. Sometimes. I'm with you there, I think when I when I
hear this particular person's set of experiences, I'm a SIS woman and I feel
deeply uncomfortable when I feel too mask. I think the question it brings up
for me is because because I often think about dysphoria as you know, the
distress or the feeling that comes with the feeling of not being aligned with yourself,
which of course could happen for anybody regardless of gender. But when I
hear somebody say I'm a CIS woman and I feel deeply uncomfortable when I feel
too mask, I also wonder what is what is the name? Is there
a name for the feeling that we have when we're embodied something that we don't
feel allowed to embody which might be slightly different from what doesn't make us feel
aligned like could potentially this as a woman as she feels mask feel dysphoria because
she doesn't feel allowed to inhabit that or because because there's not been room for
her to inhabit it versus dysphoria. So I just wonder if maybe there's like
a little bit of nuance there when the thing that causes dysphoria is something that
we've been we've been taught we're not allowed to inhabit. Is there is there
a difference or maybe there's you know, maybe we don't have an answer for
that. M Does that make sense? Yeah? Yeah, no that What
that brings up for me is also this question around like is there this feeling
of, for lack of a better term, like fear of masculinity, Like
maybe there is this feeling or there could be a possibility to open up to
being masks, But it's like, I don't know. I think that my
missandry comes through sometimes when he thinks about like masculinity and like, oh,
I don't want to be a man like man suck, you know. But
yeah, I'm wondering if that's also a piece of it too, Like what
if we could decide what is masculine? Like what if we can rewrite the
scripts of what masculinity is? And would that offer this person and all of
us like different expressions of that that we get to choose feel good to us
Because there isn't one example or expression of masculinity, just as there isn't one
example or expression of femininity. So I wonder if like, and it's totally
okay for this person, they're just like, nope, not mask having an
interest, it's not my ministry. But like, if there is some curiosity
about like is the reason why I feel dysphoria around my maskedness? Does it
relate to like that's just not my ministry or it's like I actually have some
fear or I've been harmed by masculinity and it feels like that isn't something that
I can properly embody because it just feels unsafe in some capacity. I don't
know. That's that's what came up for me as I was saying to you
speak no, I think harmed by or even punished for embracing it in the
past could be part of that too. Yeah, okay, next question another
big one. If gender is a construct, then why am I only attracted
the one gender? What's coming up for you all? Like break the seal?
I can I can share thought like I think that I'm like a big
fan of like yes, and and all things can be true. Gender can
be a construct and is a construct, and you can still lean a certain
way within that we still operate within it. Race a construct, and me
being primarily attracted to black folks, both things are true, And I can
be curious about the construct of race and how it plays out, white supremacy,
heteronormativity, and all of these things and still be part of my life
and part of the language in which I was raised and how I was socialized.
So I think that it can be a construct, but you can also
live and operate within it to the extent that you feel comfortable, and the
permission giving to yourself to explore that and explore what it means for you to
have attraction, and what it means for you to have romantic attraction and sexual
attraction and platonic attraction, and all of the ways in which gender probably shows
up very variant in your life that in ways you're not aware of. Yeah,
I mean, I would add to that there are many different ways to
be attracted to somebody, and that sexual attraction isn't the only quality fire of
you being attracted to someone. I think about this a lot around like ACE
folks, and I myself identify as ACE or an asexual person on the A
spectrum, and how I experience little to no sexual attraction, but I have
like other spaces of attraction that lights me up and makes me feel really good
about the people that I'm with, not even just platonic, but I'm like,
you know, there's esthetic attraction. There's like emotional attraction, like I
feel a sense of like, oh, I love that person's emotional availability and
the way that they're able to have this intelligence about their own feelings, and
that is really attractive to me. There is like spiritual attraction, sensual attraction,
like I would. I'm of the belief that there is no such thing
as being one hundred percent of anything. So whenever one's like, I'm one
hundred percent straight, I'm like, uh huh, because there's there's nothing straight
in nature. There's nothing perfectly straight in nature. You can look at a
tree and it's it's never going to be perfectly straight. Even if it's just
like ninety nine percent or ninety nine point five percent, there's still there,
there's still some variance. And so I just I wonder about I wonder about
someone who says that they're only attracted to a particular gender, Like it is
that true when you think about just like the variance and the nuance and the
spectrum that happens with attraction. Because if you see attraction in this black or
white like I'm attracted to you, I'm not attracted to you sexually kind of
way, then yes, I would buy that. But if we're expanding our
definition and our our own experience of attraction, you might find that there's a
little bit more wiggle room. There's a small percentage that might find that attraction.
It just may not look the ways that you're used to at looking.
Yeah, agree with everything both of you said. I think too when I
think about the way that the construct of gender has been built, It's been
built to mean a certain way that emotions look. Right, this gender's set
of emotions looks this way. It's meant it was built to capture a certain
kind of body, a certain kind of way of moving through the world,
a certain kind of expression. That's that's what this fake construct has been has
been built upon, right, all of those different things. So when we
say we're attracted to one gender, are we trying to say or is what
we mean by that, I'm attracted to a particular way that people express emotions
a particular expression. Are we saying we're attracted to an amalgamation of so many
different parts of people that we've come to know by this construct of gender.
And so to both of your points, if we start to piece that apart,
what are all of these things that have come to mean gender to us?
Then? Yeah, to your point, you know, what room might
there be to shift our language away from I'm attracted to one gender and to
talk about it with more of a range. Yeah, I think what you
were saying, Evan was like that stuck out for me too, was just
like the variance within gender of if you are saying that you're primarily or only
to use this person's language attracted to one gender, like, does that look
really like uniform within each person? And I bet that there's a lot of
difference in this person's experience of attraction, like you mentioned of the different types
of attraction that could be physical or not, and so being curious within that
of what are the qualities, what is the embodiment? What do all of
these things actually mean for you? And what have you been given access to
you? Like, I think a lot about who I was twenty years ago,
and if you had asked me if I was attracted to one gender,
I would have said yes because my experience was so limited and I only I
was only given this one option and was brought up thinking that there was only
one option for myself to pick, Like, yeah, that would have been
my answer. But the more that I began to unpack, like what does
it actually mean to be attracted to people? And how does my sexuality want
to be expressed outside of the social norms and the religious changings that I was
given back in the day. And it's okay for folks to answer those questions
and be like, no, I'm good, you know, but I know
for me, it wasn't until I started asking myself those questions and really questioning
the very like the very small amount of options that I had that I realized,
Oh, I want the whole I want the whole thing, Like I
want the whole buffet. I want to have access to that, and like,
yeah, I just wonder Also for folks who are like I'm only attracted
to one gender? Is like, is that because you've been conditioned to be
attracted in that way? And if you examine within yourself, like, yes,
I was conditioned, and yes it's still true. That's great. I
just think that we should examine it and be curious about it. One more
thing about that, just that just sparked this idea in me, because I
wonder if this person who asked this question identifies a straight or identifies as a
lesbian or gay, because I do wonder if even once part of the menu
opens or maybe you know, we now have a buffet, if even then
that conditioning not necessarily the conditioning to be attracted to the quote unquote opposite gender,
Like maybe we've lost that, but maybe the conditioning to still be attracted
to one gender is different from that, and that conditioning is still there even
once we lose the compet like could we still be boxing ourselves in on the
other side. And I think this is the type of conversation that I feel
like I've been almost canceled for on Instagram before by people who are like,
no, just let me, let me not be attracted to all these other
genders. So it's complicated, and I think it brings up trauma stuff for
people. A bigger conversation than what we can have today, but super interesting.
M all right. So our next question says, I'm a non binary
butch lesbian. I love when my wife sucks strap I had, Yes,
I had shame about this until I stopped yucking my own yum. And life
is better now. So this is less of a question and more of this
like a statement and I love it and sucks strap we celebrate this with you
whoever, Yes, I'm doing jazz hands that. I think that like the
process of like not yucking your own yum is like something that can definitely come
up, and I think that that can be so liberating of being like,
yeah, I like this, this thing is hot to me, and I
get to celebrate that. M yeah, because oftentimes the voice within us that
is yucking our own yum is yucking this our yum from a place of life.
Well that's not what I should like, or that's not what I should
do, or that's not radical, that's not feminist or whatever. Vie.
So like being able to just like let yourself want what you want and enjoy
what you enjoy without pathologizing it, without shaming yourself. I love that.
I love that for you, right, And so much of yucking our own
yum, whether it relates to something in regards to sex or a relationship or
actually food or a job or whatever, is a strategy that we've developed,
probably very young, to keep ourselves on a path that kept us safe,
right at least at a certain point. Right, If I can convince myself
this is yucky, then I won't veer off the path, and I won't
experience rejection or I won't be ostracized. But as we move into adulthood,
and that safety is for a lot of us, not for all of us,
something that we can count on more, we don't need our caregivers as
much, then I think, yeah, it becomes safe to wonder about that
and we can let some of that go, which sounds like you did.
I love this. How do I know if I'm non binary or faking it?
I'm laughing because I'm like, who are you? And why did you
get into my brain? I just feel for this person asking because I've been
there many many times in my life in this day. Yeah, I don't
have anything to add other than like, I see you, and I feel
that I'll echo that too. I read this question, I was like,
how do I answer this? I can't even answer this for myself. I
think that society would like us to believe that we're faking it, So I
think there's that's probably one of the reasons why we feel that way. Yeah,
something that comes up for me when I think about my own non binary
imposter syndrome is like, it has been really difficult for me to try to
answer the question of my gender with my mind and when I think about how
non binariness feels and my body, like when I think about the cues my
body gives me and the way that my body softens when somebody uses a day
pronoun for me, or the way that I look at myself in the mirror
and I'm like, damn, I look hot today. Like I'm really trying
to lean into the wisdom of my body around my gender expression and around my
non binariness, because the moment that I get in my head about it,
I'm like, I'm not doing this enough and I don't look like this enough,
and it becomes this like puzzle that I'm trying to put together as opposed
to a truth that I'm trying to live out and embody. And so I
guess I would offer that reflection to this individual who's asking about this, how
do you feel about your on binariness in your body? Like, what are
the things that have happened in your life in your days, you know,
around ender euphoria that like yeah, that that give those those moments of resonance,
of softening of like enthusiastic yes. I keep coming back to that,
but like an enthusiastic yes. Like how does your body tell you that you
are non binary? When you said that? When you said that, maybe
I don't have your exact wording right, but that you are having difficulty answering
that question with your mind and like leaning into your body Like I've like found
myself just like literally just like kind of like holding myself there and just being
like wow, like all of the ways that I might not have this really
cerebral cognitive approach to answering a question, to identifying an experience but having a
lot of wisdom here and like how to validate that as so authentic and so
like a bottom up experience of like what feels grounded. And maybe this is
where the imposter syndrome for me comes from. It's like we have this very
limited understanding of what a gender expression looks like. And I have even found
myself being like I'm not non binary enough, and I'm applying the same standards
of gender expression within the binary like I'm doing the exact same thing to myself
that I, you know that you would find within you know, the gender
binary. And so I like tuning into the body because I feel like that
is where my gender lives. Like the moment I start thinking about it,
I lose it. But if I can take a deep breath into my belly
and like really feel in my own body like I am non binary, and
even just saying that, like offering that to yourself, I am non binary,
and like seeing what happens in your body, like what resonates in your
body, what sensations come up, and just notice and offering some care,
some gentle touch to any part that felt, you know, activated tense or
maybe got warm, and just remembering like I don't know, I just I
really feel like gender is an embodied experience, and I think that that's there's
nothing that anybody can do to take that away from us, like even if
we even if it doesn't make sense with our minds, Like I just I
really want to feel into the wisdom of the body and also trust that wisdom.
Well you're talking about reminds me of like this concept of mirroring and how
firstus people most of their lives they're getting their genders mirrord back to them at
least with some kind of accuracy, right, Like you are a woman,
you are a man, But for trans folks, on binary folks, that's
so much harder to come by, maybe impossible to come by. And so
I think I've gone what you're what you're talking about, at least how I'm
interpreting it, is that we can offer ourselves some of that mirroring within ourselves,
Like our bodies are mirroring it back to us. Our bodies are validating
it. We don't necessarily need somebody else to because actually the way that our
nervous systems regulate itself around our gender, it tells us everything that we need
to know. And also just like a practical answer to this question that I
come back to you again and again when I have this question come up,
is like no CIS person is going around thinking about their gender this much like
it is only non binary people, trans people, gender nonconforming folks that are
having this question of like I feel like I'm faking it, you know,
So like when I think about my CIS friends and I'm like, do I
have any CIS friends? But like when I think about my CIS friends,
like they're not asking themselves these questions. They're not staying up at night thinking
about whether or not they're doing it right. And so I think that that
is just another indication, like if you think that you are non binary,
you probably are. That's rap. One of the tell tell signs is wondering
if you actually are. Yeah, we're going to take a quick break to
talk about an amazing new show, Come as you Are. If you recognize
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This is a book that actually was just my sex bible for the first
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It's a book I reference so many times when I'm teaching clients about things
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We're going to take a quick break to talk about an amazing show Bedside,
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go to resource for all things good sex. All right. Our next question
says, I'm attracted to a non binary person. What are some guidelines about
what is appropriate and not appropriate to ask? I don't want to offend or
harm them when asking about sexual stuff. So this kind of like sounds like
support how to support a non binary partner or interest. I would love to
just normalize that the questions really shouldn't be different depending on somebody's gender, Like
we should ask me asking everybody the same questions, because regardless of gender,
it's helpful to know where people's pain points are, what they need, what
they like, how they like to talk about themselves. So I think if
you want to know, like when you start to veer into something that I
think is harmful, it's when you start talking to a transfer nonbinary person about
sex or their body in a way that you wouldn't talk to say this person
about. And I think there's a lot we can learn from the Gender Experiences
community and the language that they have, but I think it's applicable across the
board, and it's questions that we should always be asking. We're thinking about
I'm glad that you mentioned that, because I think we're all human, you
know, and we all have dignity and we all deserve to be respected,
and those questions don't necessarily have to be different just because we're having a different
gendered experience than you are. Okay, I'll speak personally for me, and
I don't really know exactly what this person wants to ask their partner, what
kind of sexual questions they want to ask, but I will say that I
love it when my partner will ask me, or even my friends will ask
me, like, Hey, what pronouns do you like for me to use
for you? Or like is I just used honey when I refer to you?
Is that okay? I feel like those things offer me this feeling of
like, oh, you care about me and you want to make sure that
I am safe with you, and so I can apply that even with like
sex and sexuality, like how do you want your body to be talked about?
How would you like for me to refer to your chest or your breasts?
Like what are the words that would be good for you or your genitals?
Like what is that? How is that for you? I don't know.
I particularly love that questioning because I love it when people are curious about
me, and when they're curious it can help to create safety for me.
So maybe something to think about as well. Yeah, I really like what
both of you said around just like being curious about a person's experience and preference
is something that I would hope that we practice more. And I think that
it just gets kind of like washed away and we do so much assuming and
I think then it sounds like this person does have a lot of care and
wants to approach this tenderly, and that we're human beings and everybody is going
to have a different preference and there is not a monolith of a non binary
experience where it's like, as a non binary person, we like this and
this only everybody can shift in what their preferences are. Everybody can shift in
what turns them on, what turns them off, like in their relationship with
their body, their relationship with their sexuality. So I think the understanding that
that can happen and just to be having more curious conversations around sex, intimacy
and care is a great practice to kind of like integrate into your life in
general. Yeah, I mean, I think the other thing that I would
add to this is like I hear in this question like this, this sphear
of like not getting it right, you know, saying the wrong thing,
and how that can keep us from having these questions because we're having these kind
of conversations because we're so worried that we're going to say the wrong thing,
we're going to harm people. And that is a real that's a real feeling.
I don't want to bypass that, but I also just want to be
in spaces where we give ourselves any each other grace to get it wrong sometimes,
especially if the getting it wrong is not malicious, it's just like I
didn't know, and yeah, I want for us to build a little resiliency
around like, yeah, maybe maybe your partner, maybe you said something to
your partner and they did not like it or it wasn't the right word or
whatever, and like that can be another example of creating more intimacy and trust
as you work through that experience. I just see so many people like so
afraid to speak and say the wrong thing that they say nothing. And I
really want us to just like have these conversations, have each other, give
ourselves grace and leniency to an extent, and like, I'm obviously not talking
about people who are being harmful and misgendering you and things like that on purpose,
but like, what is it like for us to see each other in
our humanity and to see each other as like we are trying our best in
this system in this world that has conditioned us within this binary way of thinking,
and that we can co create relationships where we can get it wrong sometimes
and it's not the end of the world. It's just another way for us
to be intimate with each other. I was just going to say something about
like the permission giving to get something wrong and not to have to be perfect
or have everything figured out, and to ask things as kind of more innocuous
question, So to just be able to ask something because you're curious, not
like, hey, I'm thinking and I was wondering, and I have this
huge ask of you, but to ask it in the same way that you
would ask somebody what they want to eat for dinner, so that it's more
normalized. If I'm asking this about your gender identity, your sexual preferences,
because I care about it in the same way that I care about this other
thing. And the more that we can integrate these conversations into our thinking and
the way that we speak to each other. Just's like, I think,
there's just a lot more space there. I can get this wrong. I
don't have to have presented myself as an all knowing type of of being or
something like that. It's so easy to forget, at least for me,
that I was that person six seven years ago who didn't know how to use
They then pronounced for anybody who didn't understand them who like that, that I
was that person. So it's not just like a random stranger we're talking about.
We're even talking about younger versions of ourselves, most of us in the
queer community. So what might also be going on there right when we're so
hard on people who are where we once were. It's just something else to
think about. These are a great question. I know you com phenomenal,
Okay, how do you stay present during physical intimacy while experiencing gender based body
dysmorphia? It is really really difficult, really painful experience. One thing that
comes up when I think about maybe clients I've had who have brought this in
is sometimes when when people ask this question, they're worried about fantasizing too much,
and maybe conceptualizing fantasy as the opposite of presence, Like in order to
stay in order to stay present, I have to fantasize about myself in this
body or with this genitalia or looking different in this way, and I'm not
present when an actuality, I think fantasizing is and can be a way of
being present, and it doesn't. It's not the opposite of presence. And
so I don't know. I don't know this person's story, but one thing
I could offer is if if what one thing you're worried about is fantasizing too
much, what if you actually gave yourself permission to conceptualize fantasizing as a form
of presence, so imagining, you know, if part of the way you
cope with dysphoria is imagining or fantasizing in a way that relieves your dysphoria,
Like, give yourself permission to conceptualize that as part of presence. That doesn't
have to be the opposite of presents. That's just one thing that comes to
mind. I love that. Yeah, when I was hearing this question,
I was I was thinking about that it's okay, like to stop having sex
if you if you're in that space, you know. I think so often
we forget that we have that option to pause and take a moment when we
need to if things start to get too intense or if we start to feel
disconnected. So, yeah, I want to offer that to this person,
like it's okay to take a break, you know, it's okay to pause
and do something else and find another way to connect to your body or to
just like pivot a different to a different way of experiencing sex. And then
I guess the other thing that I would add to that is like, if
you're not wanting to stop, because you're like, no, I want to,
Like I want to keep going. This feels good. But also these
thoughts are these feelings are just really loud. The breath is always a really
beautiful way to come back into the body. So taking some deep inhales through
the nose, into the belly and just like sighing it out. I've noticed
that whenever I start to dissociate during sex or just become unpresent, breath is
a really beautiful way to bring me back into my body, back into feeling
my body. Because I know that, yeah, experiencing dysphoria, I know
for me, I feel like I'm not in my body during those moments.
So yeah, this person really wants to stay in their body and stay in
the sexual experience, like try breathing, and breathing might be a way to
anchor you back into feeling good. Yeah. I have a few different thoughts
that come up around like not being present in your body during sex, And
first want to say that that's such a such a common experience I've been.
I've experienced that countless amount of times. Like being present in your body is
sometimes a lifelong work, and so if you dip in and out of it,
that okay, you're not doing something wrong. And ways to sin turned
ground yourself are, like you said, stopping. Maybe that's when you integrate
some sort of safe word. I like to like wiggle my toes and fingers,
and also incorporate the different senses as well, like smell being really good,
which is great because I feel like a company's breath like just a deep
inhale through the nose. And then you can also be like, okay,
I can smell this person's breath or sweat or candle or whatever's happening so that
it disrupts kind of like that disconnect between the mind and body and allowing you
to feel more more present. And so I think it's the having like the
resources and practices to get back into your body, and also the permission giving
to not always feel in your body and not nish yourself for it because it's
challenging. And I think the more that you can identify this happens, particularly
when I'm being touched here, particularly being when I'm in this sort of position,
when my partner or partners say this sort of language, then you can
start to track it a little bit more of like, yeah, I was
fully with you until you said X, Y Z thing, and then you
can kind of reflect it. And it doesn't always have to be like right
in that moment, it might feel inaccessible. You might have other points of
your body that are feeling really pleasurable and stimulated. But maybe that you're like,
I'm noticing that this kind of happens every time that we get into this
position or every time that we do this type of role play, So like,
let's be curious about that the next time that we're engaging. Of all
that, I feel like you covered it. I think letting go of any
should's right, like even the should that you should be naked during sex.
You don't have to be if if seeing a particular part of your body brings
awareness to that part of your body and having on a piece of clothing,
and maybe it's not just a piece of clothing, maybe it's one that's grounding,
piece of clothing that feels really euphoric for you to wear. Or maybe
it's not clothing. Maybe you're naked but you're wearing a bracelet that reminds you
and grounds you. Or it's a it's a playlist that's euphoric, or it
doesn't have to be an item. So could there be a grounding item,
song, smell, taste, whatever it is that can kind of pull you
back in? I love that. Okay, last question. Okay, so
this person asks why is it so hard for queerness to be taken seriously as
a theemsis woman, Like I could speak to that, please, Yeah,
we're in there. I think that the compulsory heteronormativity really comes into play here.
And like our cred of I'm not a super big fan of the word
addiction, but like addiction to the buying ry and to knowing and conceptualizing of
Like this makes sense because I can categorize it as this and this makes sense,
and I don't want any wiggle room. And so I think for like
them sis women, it's like, okay, well, but I need to
understand you as being only attracted to men, only attracted to this type of
man, only attracted to somebody who is also assis person. So I think
that it's the discomfort with ambiguity, the discomfort with not knowing, the discomfort
with with identity as a continuum rather than a binary. But it could feel
really like isolating and alone, because I think that it's you know, then
people want to or assume that you share their like homophobic or transphobic views because
of your presentation or your identity. And so I think then it's then our
responsibility to be like not like, I'm not with you on that, Like
I can still exist in this identity. My identity as a queer person is
still real and valid, and that like my journey is still it is still
here. M yeah, man, homophobia as a killer drug for real,
for real, it really is. Yeah yeah. And I think that like
we want queerness to look a certain way in order to be taken seriously,
like we want it to be clocked we wanted to be identifiable. I mean
that again, the discomfort of being like wait you wait, how like wait,
how do how do I integrate this into my knowledge to what can make
sense for me when it actually has nothing to do with you? Yeah,
that was I'm somebody that it's obviously queer, often mistaken for a fences women
and an experience. I've often had our people use this phrase like what a
waste, Like it's such a waste that you're queer, And when you really
think about what they're saying, it's basically saying, right, I know,
deep breaths, but you're such a waste to men? Right, what are
you useful for? If? And so I think about one of the reasons
why, you know, for FEMSS women, why it can be so difficult,
is this like ego of this is man that like their madness there cis
madness should be enough of an entry point for them to be able to have
you and the right, the right that they feel to you and your queerness
is a moment where they have to reconcile that they don't have that power over
you, right, And of course they don't have that power over a lot
of straight women too. But that's a moment where they have to reconcile and
it's like they can't compute. And so the way that they relieve that dissonance
is through phrases like it's such a waste, or you can't really be queer,
or don't you miss you know, being with me? Whatever. We've
all all had different versions of that. But yeah, I think it's I
think it's you know, I think it's also about ego and narcissism and misogyny.
It's a hard question to end on because it's I know, dark,
Like, yeah, it's heavy, Yeah, it's heavy. Yeah, I
actually have a question that I would love to like pose to the room.
Yeah, perfect, to get the darkness out of out of our bodies,
like shaking that out. Is what has given you all euphoria recently? And
are you speaking specifically about gender euphoria? Yeah, let's do gender euphoria.
Yeah, I have one. I have a memory. My partner Malum,
was talking about I think I was getting dressed to go out or something,
and she made a comment along the lines of like, whatever you wear whatever
kind of like traditional gender expression you put on, it looks like it fits,
which was just a really tangible way of saying something that I've always dreamed
about feeling about myself, which is to be able to sort of inhabit these
different looks and for it and for it to just as read as natural and
hearing that was really euphoric for me. That's a beautiful It's really sweet that
I was doing some sort of like movement the other day. I was like
trying to like lift some weights instead of having back problems and trying to strengthen
my core. And I'm like, I think continually struggling through just like feelings
about my body and trying to distance myself from my body, so trying to
be present and my body as it shifted over time has been hard. But
I think afterward, I was like, I was just like stretching and listening
to really good music, and I just like really felt like a really strong
woman. And I think that that felt good. Like I was like I
felt like tension and then I felt like breathlessness, and I felt like accomplished,
and I felt like good that I didn't do everything perfectly and I just
felt yeah, well I felt good, really beautiful. M. I love
that. Thank you for sharing y'all. M. Do you have an answer.
Yeah, we want to hear your answer. Oh, yes, I
do. This is something that I experience every seven days because I shaved my
head this year, the second time I've shaved my head, and it looks
amazing. Thank you, thank you, I am I'll never go back.
And actually, this is this is bringing up something from a previous question that
I also want to touch on, Like you know this idea that if you
don't feel non binary enough, like do something that makes you look more non
binary. Yeah, and for me, a lot of my non binary imposter
syndrome came from and I didn't realize this until I shave my head, like,
oh I do present very very film, especially when I mean my hair
was past my shoulders and it was big, and it was it was curly,
and yeah, I shave my head every seven days because like I don't
want it to get too long. And every single time, like every time
I turn on the buzzers and like I can feel that vibration on my head
and I can see myself transforming back into like this bald headed batty. I'm
just like, yeah, that's it. That is my gender. So I
feel really lucky that I get to have something very sensual that I can practice,
like an actual sensual ritual that gets me back into gender euphoria because every
time I see myself it's like the first time. I'm still like taken it
back, Like, oh my god, that's me. Do you have a
particular day of the week that's your this ritual comes with Yeah. I try
to do it on the weekends when I'm like, you know, after I've
done all of my errands grocery shopping, and I just I make it an
event, like I turn on some music and I make sure that the shower
is just right. Sometimes I like alsna afterward and then like take a nice
hot bath. So it just it's so nourishing for my body. And also
there's so much tied especially for black women and black fems, there's so much
tied to our hair and being able to radically change this relationship with my hair
as a black person, it's just like that's that added layer of gender euphoria
for me, and like radical blackness and womanism, it's just like it's all
wrapped up in there. So yeah, highly recommend shave your head once in
your life. It'll change your life. You heard it, Yes, thank
you for that question. Yeah, yeah, for your answers, it was
really lovely to hear you all and your experiences. Do you have anything that
I mean, we read your bio, but do you have anything that you
want to plug or any projects you're excited about that you want to share.
Yeah, thank you for asking. I always want to plug my podcast Sensual
Self. It's a really lovely breath of fresh air for those of us who
want to slow down and tune into our bodies. And I really try to
like infuse the show so that it invites you to slow down and to pause
a little bit. So I highly recommend that for folks who are like,
Okay, we talked a lot about body disconnection today and like what are some
practices and some tools that can get us back into union with ourselves. So
Sensual Self is a really great resource that I love to plug. And we've
had some excellent folks like talking about pleasure. We've had Adrian Marie Brown,
We've had Data Knuckles who's talked about decolonizing gender. It's one of my favorite
episode. Um I interviewed my mom back in the day about her sex life,
so like, there's there's some wonderful gems in there. Um, so
I want to plug that, and also I'd love to plug my book as
well, since you will self it's same same title as my podcast. Um
it's just a beautiful journal that folks can work through to connect them back into
their bodies with prompts and practices that guide you and hold you and nourish you
and really allows you to experience, like, what does it look like for
me to be a sensual being on my own terms? And Yeah, you
can find sensual self wherever you listen to podcast, and you can also find
it wherever you get books. Amazing. I will be running to the podcast.
Yeah, I can't wait buying the book. Quick subscribe. Yeah,
I'll send you. I have copies. I'll send you both copies in my
book. Incredible. I'm so excited. Thank you so much, thank you,
so wonderful conversation. Really appreciate you. Yeah, thank you all.
It was really great to meet all of you. Safe Word is hosted by
Casey Tanner and Kamia Lewis and is produced by Coordinator at Townsend. Our theme
song is written and performed by Emma Jane and Toria Rainey. To support the
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