Hello everybody, and welcome back to Desks and Dorks. It's your favorite board
game design and creation podcast that has always is shaped by you. We bring
the best in indie tabletop gaming. And I wanted to do a follow up
to our episode for Legal Reasons, where Riley and I talked a lot about
the Pinkerton's and about Darrington Press launching their own their own stuff, their own
role playing game world, their own role playing game system, in response to
changes in the OGL from a buye Wizards of the Coast. If you are
brand new to this saga, welcome, I congratulate you on finding a rock
in which you could hide under to avoid this conversation. But if you are
new and you are coming into this, the OGL is the document, the
legal document by which all creators are able to make Dungeons and Dragons content for
Wizards of the Coast, popular role playing game of the exact same name,
and they're allowed to sell their works. It has led to a sort of
cottage industry about D and D modules and D and D adventures, and as
a result of that has created a very popular, not niche, but a
very popular industry within tabletop role playing in general and has been super cool.
Wizards kind of fumbled a ball earlier this year when they decided that, you
know, we're going to revoke the OGL in a very draconian and punitive way
and force small creators and large creators alike to share the Lion's share of their
revenue or be banned or face legal sanctions. It was a huge, big
thing, and it threatened the fabric of a folk D and D community that
has prospered basically since the seventies. It has been a huge deal, and
in response, many different companies decided that they were going to make their own
versions of the OGL and an attempt to sort of reclaim some of the work
that was lost by you know, our good friends over at Wizards of the
Coast. Now, this has had a sort of fallout across the industry,
and we talked about this last week when we talked about Daring Press, which
is run by Critical Role, the popular live play show and podcast which plays
dungeons and Dragons. You may also know them from their fantastic Amazon series.
But one of the things that has happened as the Darrington Press has decided that
they were going to make their own RPG system and Riley and I talked a
little bit about the impact of that when the largest content creators for Dungeons and
Dragons are going to make their own competition to the system that has benefited them,
Wizards of the Coast has essentially been put into a position where they are
paying their biggest competition for the work that they're doing. Now, this wouldn't
necessarily be a huge problem, but it gets a little bit worse and a
little bit dicier. For a while now, Piezo Press, the makers and
purveyors of popular tabletop RPG Pathfinder, have been talking about making their own version
of the OGL called the ORC, which is like the OGL illegally binding set
of documents that will allow content creators to make games within the ORC system and
sell them without having to give part of their their monetary whatever back to the
company. What's interesting is that this project was supposed to take a little bit
longer and wasn't supposed to come out for quite some time. However, in
an interesting move, Pizo has actually moved to re release all of their Pathfinders
second addition product later this year, so it moves further away from the OGL
and further away from the product which is dungeons and dragons that it seeks to
emulate. This is a huge, huge, huge move and one that is
going to have massive reverberations throughout the tabletop industry. We have known for a
while now that Pathfinder and that Pizo, the creators of Pathfinder, we're going
to move away from making dungeons and dragon style content. But that process,
I thought, and many other players and individuals within this tabletop space assumed that
it was going to be further down the line, right, that this was
going to happen a couple of years down the road, when the ORC system
was more further developed and had a little bit more leeway, a little more
traction. So for them to make the off, make the sudden and bold
decision that they are going to be doing basically moving forward, that this will
be the last print run of the Piezo product as is is a huge deal
and it's another blow for Wizards of the Coast. I don't this is a
system, and this is an issue that is going to continue to be ongoing,
and it's something that I want to continue to keep an eye on because
as someone that works and makes stuff within the tabletop board game space and the
RPG space in particular. These movements are massive, They're huge, they're they're
honestly kind of astronomical, and it's it's really strange to sort of see,
you know, how this has all sorted to blend together. That's the start
of our episode, but it's not the end of our episode. I wanted
to lead off with that because I think it was super important for us to
talk about at the beginning, but again, welcome, the rest of our
episode is going to be talking about how I think that this is going to
shape or how things are going to move forward. I don't think this is
the last thing that is going to happen. And I think what the last
couple of weeks have shown us is that even companies that I thought were going
to take more time have moved far more rapidly than even I could have anticipated.
It will be very interesting to see, not only if other companies now
are going to be moving up their timetables in order to keep up with both
Pizo and Darrington Press's decisions, or if we were going to go see more
slow and grab usual growth in this direction. It's it's a bizarre time to
be working in the tabletop RPG space. It's an awesome time, for sure,
but man, is it a bizarre time without being said, you wanted
to talk one more time actually about some board game hot takes. The rest
of this episode is going to be board game hot takes because I wanted to
start with some serious news and I wanted to end with some fun stuff.
Riley will not be joining us today. Riley is back with the IKEA Mothership,
so it is just me. But so you'll have to You'll have to,
you know, enjoy yourself at least a little bit with just your boy.
But I wanted to have some board game hot takes. I will not
be telling you who made these board game hot takes. Um spoiler alert,
They're not me, but I don't want to, you know, even accidentally
docks anybody online. But I will be telling you what the hot take is.
I'll be telling you what my take on the hot take is, whether
or not I agree with it at the very end. All right, everyone,
and we are back. Sorry about that. Had to pause for a
second. We had a little bit of technical issues, but we're back.
Let's talk board game hot takes. I'm super excited. Thank you to all
the good folks over at Reddit who have helped sort of make these here.
Our first one is one that I absolutely, totally, totally disagree with.
Hanabi is more stressful than fun. Hanabi is an awesome little game, comes
in a tin, won the spieled de jars. It is a game about
hidden information, trying to match and do your fireworks show. It's a game
that I picked up for a very low amount of money. The running joke
of my board game group is every time someone brings up Hanabi, we have
to bring up that I brought. I got it for like three bucks.
Hanabi is more stressful than fun. I think this is wildly dependent on your
board game group, and I think essentially if you are somebody who definitely feels
a little more anxious, you probably are not going to enjoy it. But
if you have a group that enjoys playing around and enjoys living rent free in
each other's heads, or like me, if you like to play it with
like your really close friends that you grew up with, I think is a
great time. Another one from our board games, I think most stone Meier
games are overhyped and not as great or worthy of all the praise they get
everywhere. Wow, that's a hot take. Most of them are mid tier.
The only one that this person actively enjoys is Wingspan. I will say
I think Wingspan is the cream of the crop. When it comes to Stonemer's
titles, I can say that having with two exceptions. I have not played
Tapestry and I have not played Viticulture, so I can't speak on those.
I don't think they're overhyped. I think part of the reason that Stonemier has
the reputation that it does is they have really, really, really good quality
in their components. And if there's one thing I think is true about being
a board gamer, it's that there's a little bit of goblin brain in all
of us. I think we really love these but I think that's part of
the reason that people absolutely love it and love those games. I don't think
they're overhyped so much as I think Stonewier is a victim of their own success
when it comes to how good games look and how good their games feel.
I will agree, though, that some of them do seem kind of mid
tier. I'll be honest. I liked Red Rising, I liked Libertalia.
I think those games are good, but I would not call them great.
I do think Stonemier has a lot of good games that are good, not
great, and are sort of carried by that strong production. So don't I
don't necessarily disagree with all of this. I think I do agree with some
of it, though. Another one hidden role games all feel the same,
and that feeling is nah wow, I don't. Here's the thing about this
one. I love hidden role games because of the playgroup that I have.
I love playing games like Coo, who was my second most played game of
last year. I absolutely adore Coo. My favorite game from unpubbed was It's
Killing Us One at a Time, which, while not a hidden role game,
does kind of feel like a hidden intention sort of game. I don't
think they all feel the same. I do think, however, that there
are a lot of really poorly designed ones because I think it's a difficult genre.
I think it is like if you like, I don't think it's hard
to design a drafting game. I do think it's hard to design a good
hidden role game, and I think that probably is what winds up, you
know, making people feel like this and don't love it. So I think
that's one of the ones that I don't necessarily disagree with. Uh, Yeah,
that's that's pretty good. Resarcana is terrible at random, and the drafting
variant locks the game where the player who drafted the best combo wins. You
then play forty five minutes as a formality. Hard hard hard disagree. I
do think the starting tiles play a pretty big role in determining how exciting or
how good your strategy is. I will say it isn't like a perfect system
by any stretch of the imagination. I will go so far as to say,
mister person who's talking about Resarka, that the person who is the best
draft the table is most likely always going to win. I don't think you
can necessarily say it's totally totally random, but I don't. I do agree
that I think the best drafter is always going to win that game. Hating
on mainstream, mass market games is nothing but snobbery. It's the same gatekeeping
bull that saw gamers hating on mass or casual games in the mid two thousands,
regardless of their quality. I hard agree with this, I absolutely hard
agree with this. I think my only exception to this person's opinion is Monopoly,
because Monopoly is not particularly great. But I'm not gonna lie to you.
I think there are some amazing mass market games that are absolute blast and
a half to play. I think Checkers is great. I think Connect four
is actually genuinely a lot of fun. I think Jenga is one of the
best games ever made. I even like the Game of Life. I'll be
honest with you, like there are some absolute stinkers, like I think candy
Land sucks. Monopoly is obviously hot garbage. I think Uno, if you
don't play Uno stacks, what are you doing with your life? Grow up?
But other than that, I don't disagree with this. I don't disagree
with this in the slightest. I think this is actually a really good opinion.
Yeah, shout out to whoever this person was. I think they're they're
straight up dead on the money. I could not agree more. I think
you have to do it, so a big, big, big, big,
big, big, big, big big up to this person. I
think there's a lot of good mass market games. Most of the games on
Kickstarter are bland and interesting, lots of fluff with a paste on theme,
overhyped a marketing to take advantage of people's pomo. I avoid all KS games
at all costs unless it's by reputable publishers. I don't totally disagree with this.
I will say I think Kickstarter used to be a lot more exciting.
I think it used to be a place where there were a lot more people
who were interested in making really cool and really compelling games that you wouldn't necessarily
get everywhere else. And I do think that system of creativity has sort of
fallen by the wayside unfortunately. I will also say I think a lot of
Kickstarters just sort of plaster on a theme to a bunch of cheap minis,
and I think that that usually works, But I don't think they're I don't
think it's most of them. I'd say it's probably fifty fifty, maybe like
forty sixty in favor of good games, and then oh man, there are
some really good ones on here. Oh my gosh. I think TCGs are
a predatory market model and should have no place in such a wholesome hobby.
How dare you say something so controversial yet so brave? Um. I don't
think I fully disagree with this at all. That's crazy. As somebody that
used to love and still loves playing magic and like Hearthstone and all those other
stuff. I think it's it's like one of the best things you can do.
I love, love, love a TCG. I don't know who you
are, dude, but I don't disagree with you. I miss the LCG
model. I think the LCG model was great. I'm kind of sad that
Fantasy Flight has sort of discontinued it. I love that Netrunner has managed to
find a second home. I'm sad that, like we lost like Five Rings
and Game of Thrones, even if I didn't play those games necessarily, but
man, it is Yeah, yep, yeah, all right, let's do
Let's do two more. I think two more and then we'll kind of close
out the episode. This is really fun. I might actually do like a
live a live version of this on the podcast. All right, Sleeping Card
is the waste of time. Most people don't ever play their games enough to
do any damage to them. I don't know who you are, sir,
hard disagree. I don't think you have to sleave all of your games,
but I do think you should sleave the games that you play. An absolute
crap ton and I think you should be sleaving your game. So I don't
think I've ever disagreed. Think that's the one I've disagreed with the most.
Um. Yeah, yeah, that's it. That's that's that's pretty much.
That's that's a good one. Discussion about solo games should be banned from this
subreddit. Game experiences and critique from solo gamers are worthless if they have only
played a game on solo wholely crap. Now, that is a spicy meatball
as a spicy boy. Um again, a hard disagree from me. I
think you have to understand that solo games are a huge part of the market.
I think you have to understand that there are solo gamers that actually have
a you know, and the important things to say about a game's balance.
I do think there probably should be some separation between conversations of whether or not
we're talking about a game that has been balanced for multiple players or if it
has been balanced for one player. So I don't disagree that there should be
some sort of separation maybe, but I think that is just a wee bit
too strong there, my friend, So, yeah, yeah, I think
that's a man. All Right, We're gonna keep going. I lied,
this is way too much fun. Rhyner Knitzia is not a genius. Wow,
how I don't know about genius because I've never met the guy, but
I mean Rhyner Knitzia has like what out of the top one hundred board games,
like I think thirty of them are his. He's gotten like what,
three hundred and fifty five published designs. He might not be a genius,
but like I think, to argue that the man is not a prolific workhorse
is just super super super super super disingenuous. Again, don't I don't know
if he's a genius or not, but man, he is actually genuinely like
one of the most like workhorse designers imaginable. So yeah, I don't.
I don't know if I don't know if I agree with that one. FRIENDO
blood Bowl team manager Rocks haven't played Blood Bowl. You'll have to let me
know in the comments if you think if you think Blood Bowl is is a
good one or not. Oh my gosh, the TCG model is superior to
the LCG model. Wow, Oh my gosh, dude, I love this.
This is so much fun. Um. I think it depends on who
you ask. I think if you ask like Wizards of the Coast, I
think they would one hundred percent agree that the TCG model is superior to the
LCG model. I think that's a hot take, um, but still man
like, I don't I don't know if I agree with that one. But
these are these are awesome, These are amazing. Okay, all right,
we're gonna do this one last. This is how I'm gonna end this episode,
and then we might we might do enough one of these episodes later.
I might. I might even get callin on for one of these episodes.
I'm one hundred per ten percent convinced that Gloom Gloom Haven succeeded through marketing,
having a good early experience, and through the whole lootbox field that makes you
want more. Also a bit of buyers and worse because it's a lot of
people's first big gaming purchase. I think the game itself is a mess.
What my brother in Christ, what are you talking about? Dude? All
right, I'm gonna keep I'm gonna keep going. This is a long one
person can says they could argue for hours about at the game author offers nothing
but lootboxes. It gives you a false sense of achievement while locking out content
you paid for. What The whole combat design is clever, but it's terribly
balanced. Past the first few scenarios. What you need to constantly man you
control the difficulty game. Yes, that is how legacy games work. I
okay, I don't know who you are, sir. This is the like
worst take I think on here. This is the actual worst take on here.
The combat design is brilliant, and I do agree that maybe balance could
be a little bit better, especially because I think as you get more powerful
in the game, I think it is much easier to sort of steamroll it.
I will be honest though, like as of right now, I don't
know what kind of game you're playing. Yeah, it locks you out of
content that you paid for, but it locks you out of that content because
the idea of gloom Haven is the journey and not the destination. Right,
You're supposed to work towards those things. Right, Like a video game,
the game does not offer nothing but lootboxes. It offers an incredibly interesting Euro
inspired combat system, which is still one of my all time favorites. It
offers a world that takes its fantasy and its combat very seriously, and I
thoroughly enjoy the world building that is there on display. I think the options
for character creation might need a little bit of tweaking individually. But I still
think every character in that game plays vastly different from one another and offers interesting
tactical decisions from every step of the process. And I think this person is
just wow. That man, You sir, are out of pocket. I
don't know who you are, but you have succeeded. You have made my
favorite unpopular opinion. But I think that's true. Whoever this person is,
you have made them the best most unpopular opinion because you actually got me to
think about it and talk about it. So well done. There to you,
my good hard rock and amigo. That's fantastic. That was That was
awesome. Well, folks, that was a brief overview of what Piezo is
doing as well as a wonderful unpopular board game opinion thread. What a fun
time. I hope you all enjoyed it. If you have not checked it
out yet, you can check out desks of doorstock org to follow all the
news on our upcoming release for a few within and you can always check out
our good friends over Indiepressed Revolution where you can get yourself a copy of our
successful RPG After the Rain. Until next time, I'm Kyle out for desks
and door because you have all been amazing. I will see you next time piece