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Hello everybody, and welcome back to
Desks and Dorks. It's your favorite board

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game design and creation podcast that has
always is shaped by you. We bring

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the best in indie tabletop gaming.
And I wanted to do a follow up

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to our episode for Legal Reasons,
where Riley and I talked a lot about

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the Pinkerton's and about Darrington Press launching
their own their own stuff, their own

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role playing game world, their own
role playing game system, in response to

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changes in the OGL from a buye
Wizards of the Coast. If you are

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brand new to this saga, welcome, I congratulate you on finding a rock

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in which you could hide under to
avoid this conversation. But if you are

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new and you are coming into this, the OGL is the document, the

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legal document by which all creators are
able to make Dungeons and Dragons content for

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Wizards of the Coast, popular role
playing game of the exact same name,

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and they're allowed to sell their works. It has led to a sort of

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cottage industry about D and D modules
and D and D adventures, and as

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a result of that has created a
very popular, not niche, but a

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very popular industry within tabletop role playing
in general and has been super cool.

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Wizards kind of fumbled a ball earlier
this year when they decided that, you

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know, we're going to revoke the
OGL in a very draconian and punitive way

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and force small creators and large creators
alike to share the Lion's share of their

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revenue or be banned or face legal
sanctions. It was a huge, big

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thing, and it threatened the fabric
of a folk D and D community that

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has prospered basically since the seventies.
It has been a huge deal, and

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in response, many different companies decided
that they were going to make their own

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versions of the OGL and an attempt
to sort of reclaim some of the work

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that was lost by you know,
our good friends over at Wizards of the

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Coast. Now, this has had
a sort of fallout across the industry,

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and we talked about this last week
when we talked about Daring Press, which

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is run by Critical Role, the
popular live play show and podcast which plays

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dungeons and Dragons. You may also
know them from their fantastic Amazon series.

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But one of the things that has
happened as the Darrington Press has decided that

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they were going to make their own
RPG system and Riley and I talked a

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little bit about the impact of that
when the largest content creators for Dungeons and

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Dragons are going to make their own
competition to the system that has benefited them,

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Wizards of the Coast has essentially been
put into a position where they are

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paying their biggest competition for the work
that they're doing. Now, this wouldn't

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necessarily be a huge problem, but
it gets a little bit worse and a

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little bit dicier. For a while
now, Piezo Press, the makers and

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purveyors of popular tabletop RPG Pathfinder,
have been talking about making their own version

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of the OGL called the ORC,
which is like the OGL illegally binding set

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of documents that will allow content creators
to make games within the ORC system and

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sell them without having to give part
of their their monetary whatever back to the

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company. What's interesting is that this
project was supposed to take a little bit

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longer and wasn't supposed to come out
for quite some time. However, in

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an interesting move, Pizo has actually
moved to re release all of their Pathfinders

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second addition product later this year,
so it moves further away from the OGL

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and further away from the product which
is dungeons and dragons that it seeks to

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emulate. This is a huge,
huge, huge move and one that is

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going to have massive reverberations throughout the
tabletop industry. We have known for a

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while now that Pathfinder and that Pizo, the creators of Pathfinder, we're going

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to move away from making dungeons and
dragon style content. But that process,

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I thought, and many other players
and individuals within this tabletop space assumed that

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it was going to be further down
the line, right, that this was

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going to happen a couple of years
down the road, when the ORC system

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was more further developed and had a
little bit more leeway, a little more

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traction. So for them to make
the off, make the sudden and bold

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decision that they are going to be
doing basically moving forward, that this will

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be the last print run of the
Piezo product as is is a huge deal

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and it's another blow for Wizards of
the Coast. I don't this is a

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system, and this is an issue
that is going to continue to be ongoing,

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and it's something that I want to
continue to keep an eye on because

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as someone that works and makes stuff
within the tabletop board game space and the

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RPG space in particular. These movements
are massive, They're huge, they're they're

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honestly kind of astronomical, and it's
it's really strange to sort of see,

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you know, how this has all
sorted to blend together. That's the start

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of our episode, but it's not
the end of our episode. I wanted

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to lead off with that because I
think it was super important for us to

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talk about at the beginning, but
again, welcome, the rest of our

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episode is going to be talking about
how I think that this is going to

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shape or how things are going to
move forward. I don't think this is

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the last thing that is going to
happen. And I think what the last

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couple of weeks have shown us is
that even companies that I thought were going

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to take more time have moved far
more rapidly than even I could have anticipated.

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It will be very interesting to see, not only if other companies now

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are going to be moving up their
timetables in order to keep up with both

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Pizo and Darrington Press's decisions, or
if we were going to go see more

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slow and grab usual growth in this
direction. It's it's a bizarre time to

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be working in the tabletop RPG space. It's an awesome time, for sure,

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but man, is it a bizarre
time without being said, you wanted

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to talk one more time actually about
some board game hot takes. The rest

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of this episode is going to be
board game hot takes because I wanted to

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start with some serious news and I
wanted to end with some fun stuff.

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Riley will not be joining us today. Riley is back with the IKEA Mothership,

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so it is just me. But
so you'll have to You'll have to,

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you know, enjoy yourself at least
a little bit with just your boy.

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But I wanted to have some board
game hot takes. I will not

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be telling you who made these board
game hot takes. Um spoiler alert,

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They're not me, but I don't
want to, you know, even accidentally

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docks anybody online. But I will
be telling you what the hot take is.

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I'll be telling you what my take
on the hot take is, whether

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or not I agree with it at
the very end. All right, everyone,

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and we are back. Sorry about
that. Had to pause for a

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second. We had a little bit
of technical issues, but we're back.

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Let's talk board game hot takes.
I'm super excited. Thank you to all

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the good folks over at Reddit who
have helped sort of make these here.

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Our first one is one that I
absolutely, totally, totally disagree with.

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Hanabi is more stressful than fun.
Hanabi is an awesome little game, comes

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in a tin, won the spieled
de jars. It is a game about

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hidden information, trying to match and
do your fireworks show. It's a game

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that I picked up for a very
low amount of money. The running joke

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of my board game group is every
time someone brings up Hanabi, we have

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to bring up that I brought.
I got it for like three bucks.

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Hanabi is more stressful than fun.
I think this is wildly dependent on your

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board game group, and I think
essentially if you are somebody who definitely feels

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a little more anxious, you probably
are not going to enjoy it. But

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if you have a group that enjoys
playing around and enjoys living rent free in

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each other's heads, or like me, if you like to play it with

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like your really close friends that you
grew up with, I think is a

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great time. Another one from our
board games, I think most stone Meier

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games are overhyped and not as great
or worthy of all the praise they get

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everywhere. Wow, that's a hot
take. Most of them are mid tier.

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The only one that this person actively
enjoys is Wingspan. I will say

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I think Wingspan is the cream of
the crop. When it comes to Stonemer's

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titles, I can say that having
with two exceptions. I have not played

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Tapestry and I have not played Viticulture, so I can't speak on those.

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I don't think they're overhyped. I
think part of the reason that Stonemier has

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the reputation that it does is they
have really, really, really good quality

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in their components. And if there's
one thing I think is true about being

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a board gamer, it's that there's
a little bit of goblin brain in all

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of us. I think we really
love these but I think that's part of

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the reason that people absolutely love it
and love those games. I don't think

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they're overhyped so much as I think
Stonewier is a victim of their own success

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when it comes to how good games
look and how good their games feel.

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I will agree, though, that
some of them do seem kind of mid

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tier. I'll be honest. I
liked Red Rising, I liked Libertalia.

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I think those games are good,
but I would not call them great.

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I do think Stonemier has a lot
of good games that are good, not

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great, and are sort of carried
by that strong production. So don't I

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don't necessarily disagree with all of this. I think I do agree with some

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of it, though. Another one
hidden role games all feel the same,

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and that feeling is nah wow,
I don't. Here's the thing about this

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one. I love hidden role games
because of the playgroup that I have.

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I love playing games like Coo,
who was my second most played game of

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last year. I absolutely adore Coo. My favorite game from unpubbed was It's

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Killing Us One at a Time,
which, while not a hidden role game,

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does kind of feel like a hidden
intention sort of game. I don't

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think they all feel the same.
I do think, however, that there

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are a lot of really poorly designed
ones because I think it's a difficult genre.

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I think it is like if you
like, I don't think it's hard

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to design a drafting game. I
do think it's hard to design a good

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hidden role game, and I think
that probably is what winds up, you

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know, making people feel like this
and don't love it. So I think

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that's one of the ones that I
don't necessarily disagree with. Uh, Yeah,

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that's that's pretty good. Resarcana is
terrible at random, and the drafting

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variant locks the game where the player
who drafted the best combo wins. You

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then play forty five minutes as a
formality. Hard hard hard disagree. I

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do think the starting tiles play a
pretty big role in determining how exciting or

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how good your strategy is. I
will say it isn't like a perfect system

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by any stretch of the imagination.
I will go so far as to say,

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mister person who's talking about Resarka,
that the person who is the best

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draft the table is most likely always
going to win. I don't think you

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can necessarily say it's totally totally random, but I don't. I do agree

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that I think the best drafter is
always going to win that game. Hating

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on mainstream, mass market games is
nothing but snobbery. It's the same gatekeeping

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bull that saw gamers hating on mass
or casual games in the mid two thousands,

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regardless of their quality. I hard
agree with this, I absolutely hard

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agree with this. I think my
only exception to this person's opinion is Monopoly,

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because Monopoly is not particularly great.
But I'm not gonna lie to you.

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I think there are some amazing mass
market games that are absolute blast and

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a half to play. I think
Checkers is great. I think Connect four

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is actually genuinely a lot of fun. I think Jenga is one of the

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best games ever made. I even
like the Game of Life. I'll be

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honest with you, like there are
some absolute stinkers, like I think candy

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Land sucks. Monopoly is obviously hot
garbage. I think Uno, if you

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don't play Uno stacks, what are
you doing with your life? Grow up?

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But other than that, I don't
disagree with this. I don't disagree

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with this in the slightest. I
think this is actually a really good opinion.

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Yeah, shout out to whoever this
person was. I think they're they're

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straight up dead on the money.
I could not agree more. I think

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you have to do it, so
a big, big, big, big,

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big, big, big, big
big up to this person. I

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think there's a lot of good mass
market games. Most of the games on

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Kickstarter are bland and interesting, lots
of fluff with a paste on theme,

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overhyped a marketing to take advantage of
people's pomo. I avoid all KS games

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at all costs unless it's by reputable
publishers. I don't totally disagree with this.

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I will say I think Kickstarter used
to be a lot more exciting.

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I think it used to be a
place where there were a lot more people

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who were interested in making really cool
and really compelling games that you wouldn't necessarily

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get everywhere else. And I do
think that system of creativity has sort of

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fallen by the wayside unfortunately. I
will also say I think a lot of

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Kickstarters just sort of plaster on a
theme to a bunch of cheap minis,

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and I think that that usually works, But I don't think they're I don't

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think it's most of them. I'd
say it's probably fifty fifty, maybe like

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forty sixty in favor of good games, and then oh man, there are

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some really good ones on here.
Oh my gosh. I think TCGs are

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a predatory market model and should have
no place in such a wholesome hobby.

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How dare you say something so controversial
yet so brave? Um. I don't

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think I fully disagree with this at
all. That's crazy. As somebody that

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used to love and still loves playing
magic and like Hearthstone and all those other

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stuff. I think it's it's like
one of the best things you can do.

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I love, love, love a
TCG. I don't know who you

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are, dude, but I don't
disagree with you. I miss the LCG

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model. I think the LCG model
was great. I'm kind of sad that

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Fantasy Flight has sort of discontinued it. I love that Netrunner has managed to

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find a second home. I'm sad
that, like we lost like Five Rings

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and Game of Thrones, even if
I didn't play those games necessarily, but

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man, it is Yeah, yep, yeah, all right, let's do

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Let's do two more. I think
two more and then we'll kind of close

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out the episode. This is really
fun. I might actually do like a

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live a live version of this on
the podcast. All right, Sleeping Card

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is the waste of time. Most
people don't ever play their games enough to

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do any damage to them. I
don't know who you are, sir,

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hard disagree. I don't think you
have to sleave all of your games,

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but I do think you should sleave
the games that you play. An absolute

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crap ton and I think you should
be sleaving your game. So I don't

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think I've ever disagreed. Think that's
the one I've disagreed with the most.

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Um. Yeah, yeah, that's
it. That's that's that's pretty much.

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That's that's a good one. Discussion
about solo games should be banned from this

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subreddit. Game experiences and critique from
solo gamers are worthless if they have only

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played a game on solo wholely crap. Now, that is a spicy meatball

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as a spicy boy. Um again, a hard disagree from me. I

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think you have to understand that solo
games are a huge part of the market.

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I think you have to understand that
there are solo gamers that actually have

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a you know, and the important
things to say about a game's balance.

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I do think there probably should be
some separation between conversations of whether or not

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we're talking about a game that has
been balanced for multiple players or if it

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has been balanced for one player.
So I don't disagree that there should be

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some sort of separation maybe, but
I think that is just a wee bit

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too strong there, my friend,
So, yeah, yeah, I think

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that's a man. All Right,
We're gonna keep going. I lied,

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this is way too much fun.
Rhyner Knitzia is not a genius. Wow,

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how I don't know about genius because
I've never met the guy, but

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I mean Rhyner Knitzia has like what
out of the top one hundred board games,

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like I think thirty of them are
his. He's gotten like what,

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three hundred and fifty five published designs. He might not be a genius,

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but like I think, to argue
that the man is not a prolific workhorse

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is just super super super super super
disingenuous. Again, don't I don't know

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if he's a genius or not,
but man, he is actually genuinely like

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one of the most like workhorse designers
imaginable. So yeah, I don't.

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I don't know if I don't know
if I agree with that one. FRIENDO

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blood Bowl team manager Rocks haven't played
Blood Bowl. You'll have to let me

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know in the comments if you think
if you think Blood Bowl is is a

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good one or not. Oh my
gosh, the TCG model is superior to

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the LCG model. Wow, Oh
my gosh, dude, I love this.

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This is so much fun. Um. I think it depends on who

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you ask. I think if you
ask like Wizards of the Coast, I

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think they would one hundred percent agree
that the TCG model is superior to the

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LCG model. I think that's a
hot take, um, but still man

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like, I don't I don't know
if I agree with that one. But

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these are these are awesome, These
are amazing. Okay, all right,

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we're gonna do this one last.
This is how I'm gonna end this episode,

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and then we might we might do
enough one of these episodes later.

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I might. I might even get
callin on for one of these episodes.

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I'm one hundred per ten percent convinced
that Gloom Gloom Haven succeeded through marketing,

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having a good early experience, and
through the whole lootbox field that makes you

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want more. Also a bit of
buyers and worse because it's a lot of

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people's first big gaming purchase. I
think the game itself is a mess.

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What my brother in Christ, what
are you talking about? Dude? All

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00:18:29.839 --> 00:18:32.759
right, I'm gonna keep I'm gonna
keep going. This is a long one

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person can says they could argue for
hours about at the game author offers nothing

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but lootboxes. It gives you a
false sense of achievement while locking out content

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you paid for. What The whole
combat design is clever, but it's terribly

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balanced. Past the first few scenarios. What you need to constantly man you

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control the difficulty game. Yes,
that is how legacy games work. I

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okay, I don't know who you
are, sir. This is the like

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00:19:03.319 --> 00:19:07.480
worst take I think on here.
This is the actual worst take on here.

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The combat design is brilliant, and
I do agree that maybe balance could

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be a little bit better, especially
because I think as you get more powerful

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in the game, I think it
is much easier to sort of steamroll it.

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I will be honest though, like
as of right now, I don't

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know what kind of game you're playing. Yeah, it locks you out of

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content that you paid for, but
it locks you out of that content because

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the idea of gloom Haven is the
journey and not the destination. Right,

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You're supposed to work towards those things. Right, Like a video game,

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the game does not offer nothing but
lootboxes. It offers an incredibly interesting Euro

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inspired combat system, which is still
one of my all time favorites. It

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offers a world that takes its fantasy
and its combat very seriously, and I

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thoroughly enjoy the world building that is
there on display. I think the options

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for character creation might need a little
bit of tweaking individually. But I still

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think every character in that game plays
vastly different from one another and offers interesting

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tactical decisions from every step of the
process. And I think this person is

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00:20:17.359 --> 00:20:22.839
just wow. That man, You
sir, are out of pocket. I

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00:20:22.880 --> 00:20:26.519
don't know who you are, but
you have succeeded. You have made my

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00:20:26.559 --> 00:20:30.400
favorite unpopular opinion. But I think
that's true. Whoever this person is,

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00:20:30.440 --> 00:20:33.599
you have made them the best most
unpopular opinion because you actually got me to

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00:20:33.599 --> 00:20:37.640
think about it and talk about it. So well done. There to you,

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00:20:37.839 --> 00:20:42.119
my good hard rock and amigo.
That's fantastic. That was That was

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00:20:42.160 --> 00:20:45.960
awesome. Well, folks, that
was a brief overview of what Piezo is

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00:20:47.000 --> 00:20:51.640
doing as well as a wonderful unpopular
board game opinion thread. What a fun

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00:20:51.640 --> 00:20:52.799
time. I hope you all enjoyed
it. If you have not checked it

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00:20:52.839 --> 00:20:56.279
out yet, you can check out
desks of doorstock org to follow all the

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00:20:56.319 --> 00:21:00.599
news on our upcoming release for a
few within and you can always check out

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00:21:00.599 --> 00:21:04.559
our good friends over Indiepressed Revolution where
you can get yourself a copy of our

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00:21:04.599 --> 00:21:08.359
successful RPG After the Rain. Until
next time, I'm Kyle out for desks

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00:21:08.400 --> 00:21:11.440
and door because you have all been
amazing. I will see you next time piece