WEBVTT

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Two recording live from sunny New Jersey, HiT's the Desks and Dark Show starring

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him Kyle Lot I am the dork. Hi, I'm Graham Gains here to

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take you on through Welcome. Welcome, And if you're wondering why we are

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not doing any video today, um, the recording setup has changed. I

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am actually no joke in New Jersey. I am with Graham. We are

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here in his apartment. Yeah,
same room, and so in honor of

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that, we're doing a special show
today because we're in the same room.

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Um, no, tell us tell
us a little bit about what what we're

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doing today. I will, but
I have a special surprise announcement for you,

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Kyle, oh everyone else. I
am locked in for gen Con.

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Baby, let's go, dude.
That's awesome, Yo, who are you

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going? I am going with the
Imagining Games and Pete Patrucia, who is

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a wonderful good friend yet Metatopia a
number of years ago. Um. His

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games have been used at Save Against
Fear for a lot of different reasons.

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Yeah. Um, I'm very excited
to help him out. I'm gonna be

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running a lot of games for him. So awesome. RPGA, congratulations,

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that's super cool, got my plane
ticket, got everything figured out this time

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off of work. It is official. That is awesome, man. So

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I'll see there. I'm I'm worth
medifius there. So it's gonna be exciting.

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Oh so cool. Oh I love
it. I'm actually really excited.

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I think I'm gonna be demoing the
Skyrim Adventures game. What high board?

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Um? And then is that the
board game in a box is the board

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game in a box. It's like
a cooperative one. You're like, you're

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running around basically just doing kind of
like the Fallout game that was around.

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Yes, but from my understanding it
is uh not to to dog in the

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Fallout one, but yeah you should. The skyrom one was apparently is very

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very very very very good. Yeah. Well, supposedly they fixed all of

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the problems that people had with the
Fallout board game. I wish there was

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so many. It just it didn't
feel like fall It didn't feel like an

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RPG. Yeah, and I think
they took a lot of that feedback and

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they fixed it. I have only
ever watched it played. Some friends of

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mine at our local game store actually
bought it, brought it in and played

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it, and it's like out Out. It is out out out Backer's habit

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is. I believe in retail at
this point too, when it's kind of

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exciting. So yeah, from my
understanding, it is very good. For

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when I watched the playthrough of it, it was really entertaining to watch.

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So if it is half as fun
to play as it was to watch,

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then they have done a very good
job. So I've just seen the little

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preview of the tiny h dragon born
guy. Yeah, that's that's all I've

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really saying. So I don't even
know it was out close enough foost boost

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road Boost Road, All right,
now that that's happened, because I'm really

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happy that you're going to jank on
that. Yeah, that's to be super

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exciting. What what is what are
we doing today? What is the special

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episode for us being in the same
room, in the same state. That's

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right. It is to commemorate the
fact that this is special for us.

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We're not ever zoomed, We're here
sitting in the same the same room.

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And so I asked for you to
come up with what your absolute favorite fictional

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relationships were. Yes. Um,
From a design point of view, I

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ultimately think that it's all about story, and story is all about character.

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What inspires us about RPGs is because
people fall in love with relationships with characters.

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These are fictional people that we one
hundred percent care about the things that

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occur that the their foibles, there, the rise, the fall, and

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people feel so close to these.
So the inspiration that comes from these kinds

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of media I think are so important
to game design and for creating the kind

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of games that you want. Yeah, and that's truthfully where I'm at.

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So I'll describe my process. Yeah. So the first thing I did was

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a franchise rule because as I was
going through this of the because we we

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we each have a list of three
or five right that we're gonna talk about,

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so we're gonna do. I opia
five I had five, might have

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to break my franchise world. Then
it because I brought up thing that I

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really liked up with thirty without even
trying, and had to whittle it down

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to my top five in fairness.
Oh by the way, um hello Emmy

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any nominated author of Graham Gens Oh
hello, Emmy nominated author. Hello.

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Uh yeah, this has been a
busy week. We both got nominated as

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part of the Level one anthology as
well, which is super cool for us,

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um. But so you know,
a lot of other stuff kind of

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going on this week, so I
hadn't have the time to sink into them

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as much. But I realized that
of the list three of my relationships I

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wanted to talk about, we're all
from the same property. Star Wars was

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not Star Wars. Okay, my
Star Wars at all. Or the Witch

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not the Witchery Witcher not Star Wars. Um. I realized as I was

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going through a lot of the fictional
relationships I really like, Um, I

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wanted to talk about three relationships that
I like. I didn't just like the

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relationship in these characters. I love
them. I thought they did something special

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for the stories they were in,
for the themes of those story worries um

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and made me think about myself as
a writer, as a creative, how

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I experiment with characters. So I
really leaned heavier into the quality side of

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things than the quantity side of things, at least on my end. Rose

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like because I had, I try
to say, I probably I could talk

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about I have thirty that I was
deeply pass Well, then you're you're just

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better than me. I think we
have to take it that way, you

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know, But we can let the
people in our booming YouTube bodies decide.

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Yeah, shout out to everybody.
But so I had a franchise rule.

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UM. And I also tried my
best to choose different types of relationships.

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UM. I didn't want to go
like all romantic, all friendship, all

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familial. UM. I wanted to
mix and match. UM. And so

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that's kind of where I'm at right
now. UM with him, I do

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have five I could pick. I
could pick a lower two, which I'll

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probably start with those ones. I
tried my best to do that. But

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honestly, again, when I came
up with thirty, a lot of the

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diversity came up through the whole thing. And it's always really interesting when I

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had to pare it down to five
what they ended up being, and so,

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you know, be what it may
and whatever reveals about me as a

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person what these end up being.
I also tried to do that. I

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tried to think about the different kinds
of relationships and why they're there, but

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they ultimately came down to one very
specific thing. Most of them is real

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good friends. Interesting. Okay,
do you want to hear Yeah, I

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would love to give you the last
word, so I will go first.

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So most of these things are you
imagine these fictional relationships iconic characters, they

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tend to be best friends of some
kind, you know, things like Your

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Robin Hood and Little John, which
did not make my top five, but

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it was close. And this one
is different a story archetype that I come

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to again. It again is the
line of teacher and student and then student

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becoming the master. And this is
a story that I'm obsessed with. And

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one of my all time favorite movies
of this is The Mask of Zoro from

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nineteen ninety eight. Really okay,
it's no good, all right, directed

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by Martin Campbell who reinvigorated this old
character. And he has done it to

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James Bond twice. Yeah, because
Martin Campbell directed Goldenye and Casino Royale,

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so rebooting James Bond for New generations
twice over, So clear this is this

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thing, and I think Mask Zoro
is incredible. So my number five is

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Old Zero and Young Zoro. It's
the old generation into the new. It's

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some of the best training montages of
all time, with old Zoro just being

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sick of this like young Buck and
then when they come together and seeing these

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transformation and how they're different and how
they become their own man. It's my

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favorite example of this trope and I
never get tired of it. I watch

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a lot of Woosha movies. I
love the kung Fu Master train the student

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and then them incoming wise, and
there's many of these movies that I think

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structurally are exceptional. But in terms
of the relationship itself, what these two

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people represented to each other. How
do you make Zoro fresh? Just rip

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off the katamone Cristo Boom and you
have an amazing movie. So my number

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five is old zero New Zoro Masca's
Zoro ninety eight. Baby. Um,

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when you were thinking master and apprentice
or teacher student relationships, m Leon from

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Leon the Professional was on my potentially
ones because obviously that relationship is the whole

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or conceit of that film. Yeah, you know, weird sexual tension with

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it? Oh God, so excited. I did not think it was weird

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sexual tenser. But you could need
to watch that French movie again. Maybe

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that should taking a completely different direction
though. Um, I'm a big A

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lot of these are very serious.
Um, the relationships on this list I

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picked were really serious in terms of
like their tone, their importance to the

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story. But there's a very long
running program that I have enjoyed in fits

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and starts. I don't know if
I really love it as much as I

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did when I first started watching it, but when I started coming back to

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this list, I really love a
relationship between two friends. And the thing

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about really good friendships is, yes, they're serious sometimes, but they also,

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I think, teach you a little
bit about yourself. And I can't

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imagine this show functioning without these two
characters having the relationship they have. My

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number five is Jakin Finn from Adventure
Yeah, I really again, it sounds

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so's It sounds so funny because like
a lot of these I was like,

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wow, these are like serious literary
terms, but this friendship between these two

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characters feels serious in a lot of
ways. I was rewatching some Adventure Time

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stuff because I was watching, like
hanging out with my younger cousin and they

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had just gotten into it, and
I was like, wow, a lot

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of the stuff that's here is like
solid communication advice for adults. So,

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but like how to keep a friendship
working and functioning? And I like,

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is there's a couple of times in
the series that Jake Holt's been accountable for

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some of the poor decisions that he
makes. And as somebody who's been that

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friend for others and has had that
friend do that for me, I think

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that's a really valuable lesson to learn. It's it's something that as I'm thinking

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about the themes of that SERI,
I really I thought that relationship episode of

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The Cool is there a moment for
you? I mean, it's a long

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series of a lot of episodes off
the top of your head that you think

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defines that relationship to you. I
don't, And that's actually why I picked

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it, which because I think if
you look at them in the moments of

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Jake and Finn together individually, I
don't know if they're special. But when

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you look at the whole of what
that relationship did and built within that series,

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it's a sum greater than the whole
of its parts, which I think

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is why it ranks so low on
my list, but why it made the

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list of general No. No.
Five Five of all time is not low

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at all, you know, Like
that's why we don't do a top ten

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or whatever or a Top one hundred
twenty seven. I mean we should though,

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Yeah, that's a good idea,
a good fresh idea good. Yeah,

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we should do a hundred strike,
one hundred and twenty seven things and

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then randomly pick numbers out of a
number generator. We should be much good

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at this. That's why you're the
door it is. That's exactly what who's

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your number four? Mind? Number
four? Okay, So I'm gonna tell

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you the property and I just off
the top of your head, want to

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know who you think came from this? So this is pretty well known,

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beloved, it's the Princess Bride.
What is the best relationship in the Princess

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Bride? It's physic and a monta
fu yeads. Maybe I was like,

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wait a second, I was thinking
about my favorite characters, but just my

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favorite scenes and the sharing of things
and why the emotional core of this beloved

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movie. It's not the wonderful Grandpa
and the kid. It's not you know,

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as badass as you know dread Pirate
Roberts and Buttercup is. It's not

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the hilarious lines given by Wallace Shawn
or the evil you know king I'm powder.

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I bet my life on it,
you know, I identifying a setless

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tasteless poison immediately it's hilarious. No, it's it's the punning and making Wallace

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Shawn upset and loving each other and
them being villains, but you love them

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and the way the story is framed
from their perspective, and it carries through

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that section of the movie into when
Wallace Shawn is gone and they're the ones

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that find each other again and decide
to go find Wesley. It's it's great.

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It's incredible in terms of the best
friends and the warmth that they share

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and these lovely moments to care about
them so much. Um, I think

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about, like, this is why
they beat Little John and Robin hood really

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because I think about just like again
the scene on the boat, did anybody

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want the pretty much? And like
stop jokes like it's I get such a

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warmth, a warmth in me.
I wanted to make this top five more

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diverse with the kinds of relationships your
hero villains, you know, the your

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your Batman and Joker. You put
Batman a joker. I keep just trying

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guest here, And honestly, what
it ended up being was that my top

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my top relationships were these friendships that
felt so normal and real and grounded in

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a way that I loved being in
that space and existing with it. So

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that's why India Montoya and I mean, let's call him Honor with the Giants

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because what he is. I know
his name is Gant. That's why number

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four. It's a great one,
all right. So, uh, Star

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Wars didn't make my list, but
it was not an overwhelming that's at four,

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um, and I so there are
three people involved in this relationships as

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it is. I'm gonna see if
you can maybe guess it. Um maybe,

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Man, I don't know. I
don't trying to give you more clues.

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I don't know if I is it
Han and Chewy and Luke it is

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not Han and Chewy and Luke because
I, even though I'm not a big

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Star Wars guy, I in my
top maybe fifteen, I put Han and

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Han and Chewy because who doesn't want
to be the charming Rogan is non verbal

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monster. Um, it's it's incredible
and I don't love Star Wars and I

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could acknowledge it is rate that it
is probably the better relationship when I was

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thinking about this one laughing up for
a ball. That's it's just I shouggest

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we let the look you in right, Like that's all that matters, Um,

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so Jeremy. By the way,
we have long joke that Jeremy is

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the Chewbacca to buy Han Solo because
I was the first one of us with

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a car and it was this beat
up Nissan that would get us out of

210
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way more scrapes than it should have. Um, And I mean, what

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NERD doesn't want to be Han Solo? I guess, But well it's so,

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I'm so my friend Jeremy front of
the show. We all love him.

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Um, you've met him a couple
of times. It's not very talkative.

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Um to the point where he doesn't
make these weird guttural noise general noises

215
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a lot. I was like,
nice to beat you. I'm Graham and

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he work. We're all like I
looked at you and you just like shook

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your hand like, don't talk.
I just I just remember people being like

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coming up to play bana bread and
that's safe. And Jeremy is who's six

219
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foot five and very muscular, is
this wearing this banana costume And I'm going,

220
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oh, hi, I'm Kyle walking
the booth in Isaac said, Hi,

221
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I'm Isaac, Hi'm a banana.
Just Um, anyone ever FOURD is

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je I mean my number four is
you're everybody ask no my number four.

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I was thinking about relationships that were
core to the Star Wars saga, and

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although I think the prequels are are
are rough. UM. I really liked

225
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the relationship between Qui gon obi Wan
and then a young Anakin interesting because it

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goes back to the mentor mentee dynamic. UM. I really loved the way

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that I don't know Quigan represents a
sort of break from change. Um obi

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Wan is sort of trying to navigate
his role already, and obviously spoilers if

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any of you care about the original
Star Wars trilogy, whicheck out anybody does.

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When Quigan dies, he rust into
this thing where he's trying to take

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care of this kid, and he
finds himself really ill equipped for it.

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UM. That relationship that Trio,
that relationship that Trio has winds up forming

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the basis for that entire saga.
M This was one I picked, not

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because I love everything that the relationship
stands for, but I love what it

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did for the story. UM a
sort of a catalyst for the growth of

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these characters and the growth of the
world itself. I remember um listening to

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a phenomenal interview with John Williams,
who did the score for Star Wars and

238
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did Duel of the Fates and obviously
like that's like one of the most epic

239
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songs ever to sword Fight too,
just for general um. But what he

240
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points out in that interview is that
people like, oh, it's super triumph,

241
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and he's like, no, it's
it's not. The Triumph is not

242
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for the good guys. The triumph
is for the bad guys. Like when

243
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Qui Gon dies, it represents a
death of this relationship for Obi Wan who

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needed a mentor, and for Anakin, who needed a father figure. And

245
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it's really interesting how that relationship winds
up foreshadowing basically the entire narrative arc of

246
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Star Wars from there on out.
So I thought it was cool, obviously,

247
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Like you know, you're you're not
saying much by uh if one is

248
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to give critique to the prequels,
obviously, but I have a pretty fundamental

249
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one, sure, which is that
not enough jar Jar banks got it.

250
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Uh. Georgia's fine, He's he's
there for the kids. I actually don't

251
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mind you. I never I never
had a problem with jar Jar and our

252
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Wars people. You know, they
tend to be really accepting a change,

253
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So um, I can't tell what
do you what do you think? I

254
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never had a problem because he was
he was the new um you know R

255
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two D two. They were like, we need the cartoon rabbit for the

256
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children to laugh at. Like that's
fine, Like I didn't I never really

257
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cared. Yeah, I didn't mind
it. The fundamental change that needed to

258
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happen between um A quin Quinn Gun
yeah nine, he needed he needed to

259
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be more distant. But more fundamentally
than that, it needed to be Qui

260
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Gon who didn't want to train him, and Obi Wan who did. Interesting

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because then by Qui Gon dying,
then he would be did not have his

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father figure to help teach him,
thus leading to a poorly trained an Again,

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I think the idea of them obi
Wan and Anakin being best friends doesn't

264
00:17:59.319 --> 00:18:02.480
make sense if he never liked him
in the first place. That's why you

265
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have this awkward transition of the second
movie, because we're at a pitch of

266
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gundocks. It should have been obi
Wan who wanted to train him, and

267
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quin Gon say no, so that
when he dies there's a reason why it

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happens. It doesn't make any sense
of see, I disagree because I think

269
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it's not the training thing necessarily,
but Qui Gon's a loving figure and the

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Jedi kind of suck at that.
Having the loving figure die, which is

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where Anakin needs to not be a
bad guy, I think is what sets

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it up for the future. Although
I do like the idea of because you're

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you're not wrong. The transition is
a little jarring. Obi Wan didn't want

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to do it, and he still
didn't want to do it, and they

275
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never seem like friends. So the
idea of this, I like what you're

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getting at, because again I'm totally
I think there's no such thing as bad

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ideas. Yeah, there's only bad
execution. So looking at something as a

278
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deconstructed of its elements is fine.
Like, there's no such thing as it,

279
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So we can talk about the prequels
and can talk about its characters.

280
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You know, it's not like,
oh, this thing is inherently bad.

281
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That's not true, right, because
things are inherently bad. Pete Pepsi inherently

282
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a bad idea. That is a
bad idea. Shout out to Riley,

283
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that world's biggest Pepsi fan. God, he tried his best. He under

284
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my desk is he I couldn't bring
him. Unfortunately, he's Actually he's in

285
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Jersey training at an Oakley store.
That's us, that's his new job.

286
00:19:18.279 --> 00:19:22.279
Might have been look at the trunk
of your car. But the idea of

287
00:19:22.279 --> 00:19:26.359
the barrier being separated and the mistakes
being laid that caused Anakin to go from

288
00:19:26.680 --> 00:19:32.440
you, the Charles and One to
this dark figure um It Qui gon dying

289
00:19:32.519 --> 00:19:36.759
didn't actually change anything. It just
forced us upon somebody and then we don't

290
00:19:36.839 --> 00:19:41.400
have it. Him being removed from
it meant then that obi Wan was had

291
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to train him on his own and
wasn't prepared to do it. Although,

292
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like I said, I think I
think I disagree fundamentally a little bit with

293
00:19:47.400 --> 00:19:48.920
that, but I think I think
you are right. I think the obi

294
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Wan relationship probably could have been executed
more so. Maybe I could just be

295
00:19:52.799 --> 00:19:55.680
do the Qui gon Anakin thing,
but I think it's important to think that

296
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he's like a dad figure though more
than anything else. Anyway. I just

297
00:19:57.720 --> 00:20:02.319
thought about that. But what is
number free grams my number three? So?

298
00:20:02.839 --> 00:20:07.720
Uh, you talked about the multiple
franchises thing, you know, wanting

299
00:20:07.759 --> 00:20:11.559
to only stick to one. Um
I tried to do with the same genre

300
00:20:12.119 --> 00:20:17.200
like it was hard to do that
because we've previously talked about westerns. We

301
00:20:17.319 --> 00:20:19.359
just did it because we just spent
a long time talk about red Dead,

302
00:20:19.359 --> 00:20:22.400
Redemption and all these other things,
and you talked about watching you know,

303
00:20:22.440 --> 00:20:26.519
gun Smoke with your Grandfather and all
these other movies and stuff. So my

304
00:20:26.640 --> 00:20:30.079
third is a Western. Yes,
okay, okay, um oh oh oh,

305
00:20:30.079 --> 00:20:34.319
what are you doing? The relationship
between Tuco and What's Space? You

306
00:20:34.400 --> 00:20:38.680
know when you say that to be
pleasant relationships, I know angelized. What

307
00:20:38.839 --> 00:20:41.759
is the what is the Clinton Swoods
character's name? He's got no name?

308
00:20:42.720 --> 00:20:47.799
Literally literally the whole Yeah, no, no, no, this is all

309
00:20:47.880 --> 00:20:52.640
best friends. I didn't do Toombstone
because that was like number six. Oh

310
00:20:52.680 --> 00:20:55.480
I love Tombstone. It's incredible.
There's two kinds of people, people who

311
00:20:55.480 --> 00:20:57.839
love Toomstone and Quota and the people
who haven't seen it, like it's it's

312
00:20:57.920 --> 00:21:07.279
amazing. Boys happened everything out of
his mouth, heure Western Gibberick. When

313
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I think about the the rogues on
a journey, the supporting each other,

314
00:21:12.119 --> 00:21:17.359
the love, the opposites being best
friends, you can't beat Butch and Sundance.

315
00:21:17.519 --> 00:21:21.720
Yes, Butch and Sundance is incredible. Every scene where they're together is

316
00:21:21.759 --> 00:21:26.119
incredible. The idea of opposites attract
the silent badass don't get any better than

317
00:21:26.160 --> 00:21:32.039
Sundance. Every single scene Butch being
the perfect like mouth but like actually has

318
00:21:32.119 --> 00:21:36.160
no skills incredible. Yeah, you
know, to be fair, it helps

319
00:21:36.200 --> 00:21:41.720
that you have two of the most
charismatic super movie stars who ever lived playing

320
00:21:41.759 --> 00:21:47.839
these parts, Um at the height
of their acting prowess. I that's that's

321
00:21:47.839 --> 00:21:51.400
fair that you get two people of
that caliber at that point in their careers,

322
00:21:51.480 --> 00:21:53.839
with that role, that director,
that script. I there are so

323
00:21:53.880 --> 00:22:00.359
many incredible scenes. But um,
when Harvey challenges Is for leadership of the

324
00:22:00.400 --> 00:22:07.680
gang is just about the best scene
ever filmed. You have Butch trying to

325
00:22:07.680 --> 00:22:11.400
talk his way out of it.
You have him going up to Sundance and

326
00:22:11.480 --> 00:22:12.839
being cowardly and being like, I
don't want to be a sore loser,

327
00:22:12.920 --> 00:22:19.359
but if I lose kill him,
Sundance goes gladly and then does this little

328
00:22:19.359 --> 00:22:25.200
smile and like tiny little way that
Marvi everything about it, everything about that

329
00:22:25.240 --> 00:22:27.119
scene from getting the end, it's
perfect. And I continue to think about

330
00:22:27.119 --> 00:22:30.960
it, and as I was trying
to sort my thirty down to five.

331
00:22:30.359 --> 00:22:34.039
I kept thinking about that scene in
particular and was like, that's it.

332
00:22:34.160 --> 00:22:37.960
That's why it kept rise at the
top, Rise at the top. Butch

333
00:22:37.000 --> 00:22:41.400
and Sundance number three, it's a
fantastic one. This much one is from

334
00:22:41.400 --> 00:22:45.279
a movie you watched recently on your
family TV. We're talking about in my

335
00:22:45.359 --> 00:22:48.359
car Gimlion Lego Loss. It is
not Gimli and Legs from Lord of the

336
00:22:48.440 --> 00:22:53.200
Rings. Um, So I did
a really deep set of push. I

337
00:22:53.200 --> 00:22:56.119
love Lord of the Rings. I
love the movies, but I thought about

338
00:22:56.160 --> 00:23:03.000
what relationship I think is the longest, both thematically and meaningful to me.

339
00:23:03.839 --> 00:23:07.079
Truthfully, this is kind of a
selfish pick a little bit. Um.

340
00:23:07.119 --> 00:23:11.480
I think Gimley Lightlis is a phenomenal
like Gimli Lightlis is just one of the

341
00:23:11.519 --> 00:23:15.240
best bro moment friendships. I think
in a movie, it's just funny about

342
00:23:15.279 --> 00:23:21.480
a friend about a friend. UM, I love that one. I think

343
00:23:21.559 --> 00:23:23.880
Sam Wise Gamgi is the goat.
I just I think he's not my favorite

344
00:23:23.920 --> 00:23:27.160
character. I think he is objectively
the best character in that movie. Um.

345
00:23:27.200 --> 00:23:30.640
I that one didn't make my list
because I still struggle to find out

346
00:23:30.680 --> 00:23:36.559
what he gets from Rodo in that
exchange of friendship. Um, I don't

347
00:23:36.559 --> 00:23:41.640
know. Good dude, he's an
ultimate wing man. He is. UM.

348
00:23:41.680 --> 00:23:45.599
I thought about Gandoff and Bilbo's relationship, which I still think is like

349
00:23:45.680 --> 00:23:48.480
it's two old friends who are just
like realizing, you know, maybe our

350
00:23:48.519 --> 00:23:51.359
time in this world is starting to
come to an end and we maybe how

351
00:23:51.400 --> 00:23:53.119
much more, how many more rides
out in the sunset do we have together?

352
00:23:53.200 --> 00:23:57.200
I love that. Um. I
love Mary and Pippin just being like

353
00:23:57.480 --> 00:24:03.240
chaos goblins. Yeah, but for
my money, there is no more important

354
00:24:03.279 --> 00:24:07.839
relationship than Lord of the Rings in
Arwin and are Igorn. Whoa what Yeah,

355
00:24:08.039 --> 00:24:14.000
that's that's fascinating. It's gonna be
take into this baby. So from

356
00:24:14.519 --> 00:24:18.799
a standpoint, right, Lord of
the Rings is I think ostensibly it's a

357
00:24:18.799 --> 00:24:19.640
book about a lot of things,
a story about a lot of things,

358
00:24:19.640 --> 00:24:26.559
but ultimately it's about change, and
those two characters are two people who change

359
00:24:26.759 --> 00:24:30.319
drastically over the course of that time
period, and they do it for one

360
00:24:30.319 --> 00:24:34.160
another in a lot of ways.
I think it's this is another this is

361
00:24:34.200 --> 00:24:37.240
going to get into some some weirdly
personal territory. But I've been really lucky

362
00:24:37.240 --> 00:24:41.319
in my life to see a lot
of great relationships and a lot of great

363
00:24:41.319 --> 00:24:45.960
marriages in my family, my friends
who have had you know, awesome,

364
00:24:45.039 --> 00:24:48.839
awesome partnerships for as long as time
can go on. And the one thing

365
00:24:48.880 --> 00:24:52.839
that keeps coming up is like,
whether it's good or bad or you know,

366
00:24:53.480 --> 00:24:56.720
easy times are hard times. There
is a measure of self sacrifice that

367
00:24:56.799 --> 00:25:00.960
comes with being in a partnership that
lasts um and I think people in love

368
00:25:02.000 --> 00:25:03.960
stories, particularly in fantasy love stories, tend to gloss over that. We

369
00:25:04.160 --> 00:25:07.359
talked about this at lunch day when
we were talking about Happily ever After and

370
00:25:07.440 --> 00:25:11.680
what are the consequences, Yeah right, people like, oh, we just

371
00:25:11.759 --> 00:25:15.759
cash the check and we move on, right, But Arwin and Aragorn are

372
00:25:15.759 --> 00:25:18.279
two people that should have cashed the
check and moved on one hundred years ago,

373
00:25:18.279 --> 00:25:21.720
and when they were supposed to get
there happily ever after, and then

374
00:25:21.759 --> 00:25:26.799
real world circumstances stepped in and through
self sacrifice, through growth, through change,

375
00:25:26.880 --> 00:25:30.200
they wind up finding each other again. To me, it's a really

376
00:25:30.200 --> 00:25:33.720
moving love story and I really like
it. UD like it just because Aragon

377
00:25:33.920 --> 00:25:38.000
is one of those humans who's like
weirdly longly lived. No, I think

378
00:25:38.160 --> 00:25:41.119
I don't know. I like it
because he's because he's like eighty or something.

379
00:25:41.319 --> 00:25:44.480
He's like one hundred and twenty years. I don't even know how.

380
00:25:45.240 --> 00:25:48.039
I mean, Tolkien plays around fast
to lose with age in those books anyway,

381
00:25:48.079 --> 00:25:52.279
But just I find that relationship really
meaningful because they both have something to

382
00:25:52.359 --> 00:25:55.920
lose and they both say this person
is worth losing or gaining whatever. It's

383
00:25:56.039 --> 00:25:59.519
fine, but they'd make it decision. I don't know, it's it's I

384
00:26:00.200 --> 00:26:03.359
I feel like Erwin. I mean, she's one of the only female characters

385
00:26:03.359 --> 00:26:06.240
in that book, you know.
Yeah, and then struck on the movies,

386
00:26:06.279 --> 00:26:08.559
by the way, well, not
necessarily strictly, well most Here's the

387
00:26:08.599 --> 00:26:12.400
thing is that people talk about cannon
and sticking to things. There are a

388
00:26:12.480 --> 00:26:17.799
number of things that I think that
the movies do better the books did,

389
00:26:17.839 --> 00:26:22.839
and I specifically think that's Erwin.
Yeah, because Erwin is not much so

390
00:26:22.319 --> 00:26:26.200
in that famous if you want him, come and claim him. That's like

391
00:26:26.240 --> 00:26:30.599
another random elf in the book.
That's not heroin what that's crazy. Ye,

392
00:26:32.640 --> 00:26:36.240
So she is a much better character
in the movies. Yeah, And

393
00:26:36.440 --> 00:26:41.119
it is fantastic in the films,
the random female elf who shows up does

394
00:26:41.119 --> 00:26:45.079
that. It never goes back that's
bizarre. Yeah, that's bizarre. Man.

395
00:26:45.319 --> 00:26:48.279
Anyway, Yeah, that's what if? What if? What what about?

396
00:26:48.319 --> 00:26:51.799
I am no, man, isn't
that a more compelling love story with

397
00:26:51.880 --> 00:26:55.920
aragon? Um? You know?
I mean she's defending Mary at that point.

398
00:26:55.920 --> 00:26:57.720
No, I know, but she
like I know it is, but

399
00:26:57.799 --> 00:27:00.200
she has the eyes. She has
the eye for air gun he does.

400
00:27:00.960 --> 00:27:06.799
It's so tragic, and I'm gonna
be honest anyone. I'm not like her

401
00:27:06.799 --> 00:27:08.559
as a character. I know,
objective, just a lir but I did

402
00:27:08.640 --> 00:27:14.400
never I'm like, no, get
out here, lady, you're not man.

403
00:27:14.799 --> 00:27:17.720
Listen, you got about like one
hundred and some years of or like

404
00:27:17.759 --> 00:27:21.559
forty some years of love to over
it. I know she's because it's because

405
00:27:21.559 --> 00:27:25.000
they've been in love for two hundred
years. That's why you're you're clearly agist.

406
00:27:25.319 --> 00:27:26.839
This is why this is your favorite
romance of all time. It's some

407
00:27:26.880 --> 00:27:30.039
of my favorite romans of all time, but it is it is the one

408
00:27:30.039 --> 00:27:33.440
I picked for this point. Nice, we should do fictional romance. That'd

409
00:27:33.440 --> 00:27:36.039
be a fun list. Oh my
gosh, yeahs your your yours would only

410
00:27:36.039 --> 00:27:37.279
be elves and humans. You clearly
have a bike. Oh god, no,

411
00:27:37.440 --> 00:27:41.200
I already know what my number one
would be. It's not all right,

412
00:27:41.240 --> 00:27:42.400
do you tell me your number two? Tell me you're not right.

413
00:27:42.480 --> 00:27:48.079
So my number two, I'm very
glad that you you uh blaze the way

414
00:27:48.079 --> 00:27:52.079
because my number two is also a
triple. Oh okay, okay um.

415
00:27:52.200 --> 00:27:59.599
We're dipping into possibly my favorite franchise
of all time, Cosmic Encounter. Yeah.

416
00:28:00.000 --> 00:28:03.799
I love the weird parasite guy who's
on the cover. It's so like

417
00:28:04.000 --> 00:28:08.519
personal. You know, he's literally
sucking his brains out. Yeah. I

418
00:28:08.599 --> 00:28:15.519
like Star Trek more than I like
most things. It's really personal. And

419
00:28:15.960 --> 00:28:22.319
my argument about all media is always
about character. And I think one of

420
00:28:22.319 --> 00:28:27.200
the main reasons that Star Wars stuck
the landing was because people cared about his

421
00:28:27.319 --> 00:28:33.759
characters. And I am the entire
idea of a con circuit at all.

422
00:28:33.880 --> 00:28:37.559
It's specifically because Star Trekoventions took off
because you had the original series and then

423
00:28:37.599 --> 00:28:40.720
it was gone. It was like
three seasons, and then you know,

424
00:28:40.759 --> 00:28:45.279
they desperately wanted it, and it
was speculative fiction in a time that people

425
00:28:45.319 --> 00:28:51.240
wanted it. You know, you
had a black woman as a bridge officer,

426
00:28:51.559 --> 00:28:55.400
you had a Japanese American man,
you had a Russian all this stuff.

427
00:28:56.640 --> 00:29:02.839
It was imaginative and interesting. There's
some really thought provoking, excellent science

428
00:29:02.880 --> 00:29:07.559
fiction in it. But the best
thing about Star Trek is that they nailed

429
00:29:07.839 --> 00:29:15.559
the relationship immediately, the Kirk Spock
Bones dynamic about to say it was Kirk.

430
00:29:17.039 --> 00:29:22.279
It's just about the best scripple relationship
friendship of all time and it and

431
00:29:22.359 --> 00:29:30.960
it defines how contrast occurs. Um. It defines all of the relationships going

432
00:29:30.039 --> 00:29:33.680
forward in Star Trek. Every time
you're writing new characters, they go back

433
00:29:33.680 --> 00:29:37.880
to, well, it's this like
this is that defined it. What you

434
00:29:37.960 --> 00:29:42.480
have is this incredibly rich and complex
diversity of philosophy with the three of them.

435
00:29:42.799 --> 00:29:47.880
You have Bones, who is all
human, he's all compassion um,

436
00:29:47.920 --> 00:29:51.440
he's the doctor who cares. He's
a bleeding heart. He needs it.

437
00:29:51.720 --> 00:29:55.839
Like you know, damn you for
thinking about what this is. There's human

438
00:29:55.920 --> 00:30:00.119
lives, there's real things that you
have Spock, who's all logic, who's

439
00:30:00.240 --> 00:30:03.920
probably always right, but and you
have Kirk in the middle. Yeah.

440
00:30:03.960 --> 00:30:08.720
I really fight against a lot of
the weird stereotypes of the jj Abram stuff

441
00:30:08.720 --> 00:30:15.400
that Kirk is this like swaggering Kurt, charismatic frat boy because you watch you

442
00:30:15.480 --> 00:30:21.599
watch the original series. He's so
level headed and like and logical. He

443
00:30:22.000 --> 00:30:25.799
strikes the military post. He feels
like a military commander is. He's not

444
00:30:25.920 --> 00:30:33.839
this like swash buckling rogue like kissing
alien ladies and punching things like he's he

445
00:30:33.079 --> 00:30:38.559
is like a boy's fantasy of what
a ship captain is. But he's a

446
00:30:38.599 --> 00:30:42.559
good leader and he's logical, is
down to it. He knows how to

447
00:30:42.599 --> 00:30:45.480
listen to both sides and land the
middle. This is why Kirk is so

448
00:30:45.559 --> 00:30:48.119
great. Yeah, and why I
continue to defend him as a character.

449
00:30:48.200 --> 00:30:52.440
He's a good guy and people lose
that. I think in the he's not

450
00:30:53.079 --> 00:30:55.920
the fun stuff, that's what you
write. Like when I think of Kark,

451
00:30:55.960 --> 00:30:59.000
I'm like, oh, he's banging
some green chicken, right, which

452
00:30:59.119 --> 00:31:02.599
I just is not at all what
the character is. But it's become as

453
00:31:02.680 --> 00:31:06.640
a as a cultural standpoint. It's
like the way that Hunter Ris Thompson has

454
00:31:06.680 --> 00:31:11.799
become a Halloween costume. It's a
stereotype that's Kirk's thing. But he's really

455
00:31:11.839 --> 00:31:15.400
this perfect point between bones and Spock. Yeah, I agree, that's my

456
00:31:15.519 --> 00:31:18.440
number two. That's a good one. Um, I know it's so funny

457
00:31:18.559 --> 00:31:22.519
you mentioned a particular film earlier on
your list, because, um, if

458
00:31:22.519 --> 00:31:26.359
I if I tell you my number
two, I'm Tombstone. Um it is

459
00:31:26.400 --> 00:31:30.960
Tombstone, Tombstone my relationship. Do
you think I'm gonna put for a Tombstone?

460
00:31:32.000 --> 00:31:34.759
There really is only one choice.
I think Wide Up is my friend?

461
00:31:36.119 --> 00:31:38.880
Well, Hey, I got lots
of friends. I don't Boom the

462
00:31:38.920 --> 00:31:41.960
best line in Tombstone? Why are
you doing the stock? Wide Up is

463
00:31:42.000 --> 00:31:45.400
my friend? Well, I got
lots of friends. I don't I And

464
00:31:45.480 --> 00:31:48.960
how did I know the best line
of the movie? Because you love Boom

465
00:31:48.960 --> 00:31:56.240
movies? I? Um, this, this is this is everything that I

466
00:31:56.279 --> 00:32:01.480
wanted Sam Wise and Frodo to be
because it's reciprocal. Um, I'm just

467
00:32:01.519 --> 00:32:07.000
gonna being are you sure as can? I do? I hate him?

468
00:32:07.000 --> 00:32:12.960
Don I made him? I hate
him now I really hate I really hate

469
00:32:13.039 --> 00:32:20.839
him. He's an educated man.
The well John a Ringo Ringoes an educated

470
00:32:20.920 --> 00:32:24.680
man. I um to. It's
such an infinitely quotable film. But that

471
00:32:24.759 --> 00:32:29.119
friendship, I think is the core
of what elevates Tomson from what could have

472
00:32:29.119 --> 00:32:30.960
been a really shlocky western into what
it is, which for me is one

473
00:32:31.000 --> 00:32:37.240
of the most enduring Westerns I've ever
watched. Um Doc Holiday is this mercurial,

474
00:32:37.839 --> 00:32:43.759
incredible, out of his mind character
who knows that the West is coming

475
00:32:43.799 --> 00:32:45.799
to an end at some point,
and that he is probably going to come

476
00:32:45.839 --> 00:32:50.839
to an end before it does.
Um and lives his life literally like the

477
00:32:50.920 --> 00:32:53.039
candle is on fire and both ends
and I'm just going to do everything that

478
00:32:53.079 --> 00:32:58.519
I can, and winds up striking
up a friendship with probably the on paper

479
00:32:58.559 --> 00:33:01.400
the person who would be his friend
the least, which is this really kind

480
00:33:01.440 --> 00:33:07.599
of bog standard law man. But
the relations he is a block of wood.

481
00:33:07.599 --> 00:33:09.599
He truly is. And that's what
is the best part about it is

482
00:33:09.599 --> 00:33:16.960
you watch two people who have very
similar skill sets but wildly different personalities come

483
00:33:17.039 --> 00:33:21.799
to this incredible mutual love and respect
for one another. And at the end

484
00:33:21.799 --> 00:33:27.720
of that film, when Dac Holiday
does die and he gives up, that's

485
00:33:27.799 --> 00:33:30.880
funny wider up his final send off. It's so emotional because it's not just

486
00:33:30.960 --> 00:33:35.359
like this hero is being done with
his journey. It's the end of a

487
00:33:35.400 --> 00:33:39.960
friendship that really truly matters. I
do understand that last bit like him,

488
00:33:40.119 --> 00:33:43.920
like Dac Holiday dying in bed,
he looks down at his feet and because

489
00:33:43.960 --> 00:33:46.319
that's funny. Yeah, did you
do you understand that moment? Why?

490
00:33:46.319 --> 00:33:49.640
Because he thought he would be hanging
from a rope or no? Yeah,

491
00:33:49.720 --> 00:33:52.480
because that's the phrase that you say, you're gonna die with your boots on.

492
00:33:52.680 --> 00:33:54.279
Yeah, And that's why I guess
why guys kick off their boots when

493
00:33:54.279 --> 00:33:57.480
they're being hanged, because they're like, you're gonna die with your boots on,

494
00:33:57.519 --> 00:33:59.880
which means you're gonna get hanged.
So his last line of the movie

495
00:34:00.640 --> 00:34:04.480
sucks, Yeah, he goes,
well, yeah, because he never expected

496
00:34:04.519 --> 00:34:07.760
to die in there By Friends,
which is I think, And again,

497
00:34:08.000 --> 00:34:10.800
what I think makes it so meaningful
is like Doc feels like the sam Wise

498
00:34:10.840 --> 00:34:15.199
of this relationship, where Doc is
willing to move heaven and Earth, even

499
00:34:15.400 --> 00:34:20.880
dying of tuberculosis, knows that that
Wider can't beat Johnny Ring going a gunfight,

500
00:34:21.039 --> 00:34:23.880
knows it in his freaking bones,
and still goes out, dying of

501
00:34:23.960 --> 00:34:30.519
tuberculosis to kill this man to save
his friend. And despite all that absolute

502
00:34:30.559 --> 00:34:36.880
like sam Wise level activity, Wider
gives it back in spades, this stability,

503
00:34:37.039 --> 00:34:39.800
this friendship, and this consistent reminder
that yes, you are this weird

504
00:34:39.840 --> 00:34:45.239
ethereal mad cap, absolute lunatic.
But you're my friend and I love you,

505
00:34:45.320 --> 00:34:49.440
and there's so much love and respect
between these two characters, and genuinely

506
00:34:49.519 --> 00:34:52.400
is so moving. I keep coming
back to that film time and time again,

507
00:34:52.400 --> 00:34:53.880
and I continue to come back to
it, not just because the writing

508
00:34:53.960 --> 00:34:57.760
is whip smart and it's great and
funny in all the right ways, not

509
00:34:57.800 --> 00:35:00.039
just because there's some actually a great
gun play, UM, some awesome,

510
00:35:00.079 --> 00:35:04.360
really funny side characters as well,
but that relationship between Doc and between Wider,

511
00:35:04.599 --> 00:35:07.119
it just is the cornerstone of that
film for me and always will be.

512
00:35:07.519 --> 00:35:13.599
Literally everything out of Bell Kilmer's mouth
is perfect. Yes, there's never

513
00:35:13.679 --> 00:35:19.559
been a part in human history played
so perfectly as he does in that part.

514
00:35:20.320 --> 00:35:23.800
And it's it's one of those things
that like honorary Oscar and it's like

515
00:35:23.840 --> 00:35:28.360
how you know, you know Oscar
is so white. The true tragedy is

516
00:35:28.400 --> 00:35:34.639
that there was not like a national
attention for that performance because it's mud it

517
00:35:34.760 --> 00:35:37.559
is how good. It is absolutely
spectacular in every single way, shape and

518
00:35:37.639 --> 00:35:45.559
form. And I have very cosmopolitan
no, no very that's my number two

519
00:35:45.800 --> 00:35:50.079
is a holiday and wider good.
I'm so glad you did that one,

520
00:35:50.440 --> 00:35:52.960
um, because I think that was
number six on my list. Yeah,

521
00:35:52.840 --> 00:35:59.239
because my whole list was composed of
these like best friendships, and I thought

522
00:35:59.280 --> 00:36:04.440
about what they were and what they
represented, and they're the love and the

523
00:36:04.880 --> 00:36:08.320
contrast of Butch and Sundance, like
landed it to me. And I mean,

524
00:36:09.000 --> 00:36:13.559
I probably have seen Tombstone more than
I've seen any other movie, like

525
00:36:13.760 --> 00:36:17.679
every how many times every wad rely
off there. For me, it's it's

526
00:36:17.760 --> 00:36:21.960
mind blowing by excellent choice. I'm
so kind we got to talk about it.

527
00:36:22.039 --> 00:36:23.679
Yeah, all right, are you
right? For my number one?

528
00:36:23.719 --> 00:36:27.960
I am stoked. I'm really stoked. All right. So when I was

529
00:36:28.000 --> 00:36:31.000
making this list, this is probably
the first one I put down, And

530
00:36:31.079 --> 00:36:36.400
then as I was sorting out my
top thirty into my ten into my five,

531
00:36:37.039 --> 00:36:38.400
it just kept sliding to the top
and slide to the top and slide

532
00:36:38.400 --> 00:36:45.719
at the top. Um um.
I mean, uh, this is one

533
00:36:45.760 --> 00:36:50.760
that everyone's gonna know because I feel
like it was the most famous, if

534
00:36:50.800 --> 00:36:55.920
not culturally fundamental, if not representative, relationship of the nineteen nineties. What

535
00:36:57.159 --> 00:37:01.400
is the most famous relationship of two
people on TV of the entire nineties?

536
00:37:01.960 --> 00:37:07.519
Oh? My god, maybe a
little spooky, Uh, maybe a little

537
00:37:07.559 --> 00:37:15.440
adventury. Uh, you going on
cases looking for secret bucking angels up there

538
00:37:15.440 --> 00:37:19.079
and then Spikes so much better.
Oh, I agree, but I think

539
00:37:19.440 --> 00:37:22.599
I always think people would go with
the angel once to Spike is infinitely better.

540
00:37:22.960 --> 00:37:28.800
And and he's it's a better relationship
too, like Spike Ventures in the

541
00:37:28.920 --> 00:37:32.000
nineties. The most fundamental, clearly, this is not a show that a

542
00:37:32.079 --> 00:37:37.199
fan of maybe not all right psych
was a psych was the two thousands.

543
00:37:37.400 --> 00:37:43.199
My number one favorite fictional relationship of
all time is Mulder and Scully. Oh

544
00:37:45.000 --> 00:37:51.039
they are both incredible. Um,
Mulder by itself is one of my face

545
00:37:51.119 --> 00:37:55.280
So I've made similarly a top ten
list of fictional characters of all time and

546
00:37:55.320 --> 00:38:00.679
this was one like you know,
get to know you are? Question I

547
00:38:00.679 --> 00:38:02.320
had for a while and I would
send to people around in college, and

548
00:38:02.360 --> 00:38:07.079
I put Sherlock Holmes slash Molder in
one of the slots because I was cheating,

549
00:38:07.239 --> 00:38:10.360
because he's straight up Sherlock Holmes.
And one of the fundamental things that

550
00:38:10.599 --> 00:38:15.119
changes about it, It's why it's
a genius. What if we have Watson

551
00:38:15.360 --> 00:38:22.280
and Holmes but except the doctor is
not another British guy but a redheaded lady

552
00:38:22.639 --> 00:38:27.440
who is specifically not believing in it. It's still Watson in home because you

553
00:38:27.480 --> 00:38:32.079
have the genius detective, but he's
also the man who's also the believer and

554
00:38:32.159 --> 00:38:37.280
the spiritualist. Because you always have
these stereotypes about men being logical and women

555
00:38:37.440 --> 00:38:44.880
being more emotional, and so you
invert that where you have this mercurial detective

556
00:38:45.039 --> 00:38:50.599
who takes in feelings and believes you
know, and then the scientist is again

557
00:38:50.800 --> 00:38:54.440
Scully, the skeptic. How do
you take already one of the best relationships

558
00:38:54.440 --> 00:39:04.280
of all time in in literature,
Holmes and Watson, and how do you

559
00:39:04.280 --> 00:39:07.519
make it better? Well by attaching
them too what is already probably my favorite

560
00:39:07.519 --> 00:39:13.199
TV show, twilight Zone and instead
of Devin that have a consistent characters for

561
00:39:13.280 --> 00:39:19.559
every twilights in episode Boom X Files. X Files is incredible because you get

562
00:39:19.599 --> 00:39:21.840
your Monster of the Week, you
get your sci fi, you get your

563
00:39:21.880 --> 00:39:24.239
horror, you get your exploration.
You have all this stuff, but then

564
00:39:24.280 --> 00:39:30.559
you have a core relationship that you
absolutely love. Whoa I mean, that's

565
00:39:30.599 --> 00:39:32.440
all you need. That's how you
become one of the best shows of all

566
00:39:32.480 --> 00:39:37.519
time. Boom, very good,
Moldern Scully X Files number one. Yeah,

567
00:39:37.679 --> 00:39:40.559
that's a good one. How's a
good one? My number one was

568
00:39:40.599 --> 00:39:44.280
the first one as well, by
the way, that propped up on my

569
00:39:44.360 --> 00:39:47.920
list, and I always by the
way, so I as a core memory

570
00:39:49.119 --> 00:39:54.280
of X Files. My parents used
to watch X Files in their room at

571
00:39:54.360 --> 00:39:58.599
night, and they would wait specifically
when they would go I would they thought

572
00:39:58.599 --> 00:40:01.679
I was asleep because they're like,
this kid is gonna love X Files and

573
00:40:01.760 --> 00:40:05.360
I that's why I don't remember it
being a show in the nineties, because

574
00:40:05.400 --> 00:40:07.159
I was born ninety three. I'm
like, so i'd be like, it's

575
00:40:07.159 --> 00:40:12.599
going back, but I didn't actually
watch X Files, but just that's my

576
00:40:12.719 --> 00:40:20.000
that's my first core memory of it
is that hearing the theme song. Your

577
00:40:20.000 --> 00:40:22.440
core memory at least one similar is
even though I'm a little bit older than

578
00:40:22.440 --> 00:40:28.199
you, I was too young in
the early seasons to watch it. Um

579
00:40:28.280 --> 00:40:32.800
and uh. The theme song scared
me to my core that when my parents,

580
00:40:32.920 --> 00:40:37.599
also in their bedroom, would watch
X Files on Sunday nights, I

581
00:40:37.639 --> 00:40:40.559
would run into my room and throw
my pillow over my head as not to

582
00:40:40.599 --> 00:40:45.199
hear the theme song or else I
would have gotten nightmare. I was trying

583
00:40:45.199 --> 00:40:50.760
to get. Give me no,
I know, Like that was early I

584
00:40:50.800 --> 00:40:53.320
was like the first couple of years
when I was very young, and now

585
00:40:53.360 --> 00:40:57.960
some of my favorite shows of all
time because I don't know, I'm not

586
00:40:58.079 --> 00:41:00.360
doing so good minute, No,
it's it is a good right show.

587
00:41:00.800 --> 00:41:02.639
You're you're this boy, you are
I mean, you're definitely s boogie boy.

588
00:41:02.639 --> 00:41:07.280
But then that's besides call me your
number one, my dude, So

589
00:41:07.360 --> 00:41:12.360
my number one is from an animated
TV series, first and foremost, and

590
00:41:12.960 --> 00:41:16.480
three of the relationships on this TV
series, uh, we're front running list.

591
00:41:17.239 --> 00:41:21.119
And as I started to think about
this, there really is only one

592
00:41:21.199 --> 00:41:23.639
that truly interested me. M not
just because of the length of time that

593
00:41:23.639 --> 00:41:27.840
these two characters spend, but the
impact that one character has in the other

594
00:41:28.400 --> 00:41:32.280
once that character is gone. A
h Iro and Zuko was my six.

595
00:41:34.039 --> 00:41:39.400
It's not my one. I I
had is like eight or nine. But

596
00:41:39.480 --> 00:41:43.920
then I remembered ang Ang and Apa
and I was like, oh, that's

597
00:41:43.920 --> 00:41:46.280
so much better. But I still
couldn't crack my tie. I would argue

598
00:41:46.320 --> 00:41:51.599
that Appa is the most useful character
in that show, Taca the second serusiful

599
00:41:51.679 --> 00:41:55.079
character of that show. Oh I
don't agree. I do agree with that,

600
00:41:55.800 --> 00:41:59.639
but like we were not talking about
Avatar we're talking about help my friends

601
00:41:59.639 --> 00:42:05.280
with my We're rang, We're talking
about Castlevania. My number one relationship is

602
00:42:05.679 --> 00:42:09.599
that is uh, it is Isaac
and Dracula. Um go. So if

603
00:42:09.599 --> 00:42:15.639
you know what is this the like
Netflix ship? It is which I loved?

604
00:42:15.880 --> 00:42:16.559
Um, I don't know. I
don't know if I'm in the minority

605
00:42:16.639 --> 00:42:19.719
or not. Don't care. I
think the show is. I don't know

606
00:42:19.719 --> 00:42:22.360
if people liked it or not.
I don't. I think it's brilliant.

607
00:42:22.360 --> 00:42:23.920
It's a ten out of ten show. It's in my top five animated shows

608
00:42:23.920 --> 00:42:29.079
of all time. I love the
show incredibly, and this relationship is largely

609
00:42:29.079 --> 00:42:31.960
a part of it. Um.
So, when we meet Dracula, he

610
00:42:32.039 --> 00:42:37.920
is on his mission to do two
things right, which is Avenge's dead wife

611
00:42:37.960 --> 00:42:40.119
and kill all human beings. And
he's all out of bubblegum. And he's

612
00:42:40.159 --> 00:42:43.519
all out of bubblegum. He's all
out of a son as well, who's

613
00:42:43.559 --> 00:42:49.519
try and who tries to literally serves
his son um. But he recruits two

614
00:42:49.599 --> 00:42:52.320
humans to this cause. One of
them is Hector, who is interesting has

615
00:42:52.519 --> 00:42:55.360
his own interesting relationships as the series
goes on. The other is Isaac,

616
00:42:55.639 --> 00:43:01.480
who is this what I'm crazy care. He's like this necromancer, but he's

617
00:43:01.519 --> 00:43:07.119
also a devout Sufi Muslim and like, I don't know why I said Muslim

618
00:43:07.199 --> 00:43:10.039
like that, like it's a Muslim. Oh, no, it's it's muslims.

619
00:43:10.199 --> 00:43:13.599
No, no, it is is
it really the saying Okay, you

620
00:43:13.719 --> 00:43:15.000
know it's that Muslim. It's all
right, well, okay, so I

621
00:43:15.000 --> 00:43:19.960
am it's a it's a smooth oo. So I am saying so i'd say

622
00:43:20.000 --> 00:43:22.440
correctly. Then. Um. The
other thing, too, is like it's

623
00:43:22.480 --> 00:43:24.880
heavily revealed that he's been like a
really hard life, largest grown by the

624
00:43:24.920 --> 00:43:29.079
fact that he's homosexual, which has
been a huge issue at that time.

625
00:43:29.320 --> 00:43:32.760
He's this immensely interesting, complex character
who, when we meets Dracula, is

626
00:43:32.800 --> 00:43:37.719
totally incompletely of this idea that he
is nothing more than a tool to be

627
00:43:37.840 --> 00:43:43.000
used by a higher power. Whether
that higher power is God or Dracula,

628
00:43:43.079 --> 00:43:46.400
it doesn't matter to him at all. And in a weird twist of fate,

629
00:43:46.519 --> 00:43:52.199
the series Big Bad Villain um Dracula
literally yeah, I know right,

630
00:43:54.320 --> 00:43:59.880
it actually turns out the real villain
that existentialism all along, but literally over

631
00:43:59.920 --> 00:44:02.239
the also the sun, also the
sun from the over the course of this

632
00:44:02.519 --> 00:44:07.360
series, though you watch as Dracula
treats Isaac, a person who has,

633
00:44:07.440 --> 00:44:09.920
up to this point in his own
backstory, into his own admission as a

634
00:44:10.000 --> 00:44:13.920
character, has never been treated like
an equal, never been treated like he

635
00:44:14.000 --> 00:44:17.000
matters. Is being treated like he
matters by someone who wants to exterminate the

636
00:44:17.000 --> 00:44:21.599
whole human race. Um. It's
weird that the crown Prince of Darkness who

637
00:44:21.599 --> 00:44:23.760
has all this cosy powers like you're
my equal, um. And it winds

638
00:44:23.800 --> 00:44:28.320
up culminating in this weird moment where
Isaac goes to do the classic best friend

639
00:44:28.400 --> 00:44:31.199
I'm gonna self sacrifice my sof for
you, and Dracula hurls him through a

640
00:44:31.199 --> 00:44:37.039
portal to save him, rather than
have him say Dracula and I need you

641
00:44:37.079 --> 00:44:39.679
to rewind and talk about it.
It must to wipe that all of humanity.

642
00:44:39.719 --> 00:44:44.679
Though he does. Um, he
they kill his wife and he does

643
00:44:44.719 --> 00:44:49.519
that make like the relationship like sweet
more fun. It's it makes it interesting

644
00:44:49.559 --> 00:44:54.800
because I forget when you did um, Mary kiss kill which one was stolid?

645
00:44:55.039 --> 00:45:02.280
Here's Mary, I marry everybody?
No um so Isaacum. Isaac doesn't

646
00:45:02.320 --> 00:45:06.559
care about humans in his mind.
He's like humanities trash. What do I

647
00:45:06.599 --> 00:45:08.280
care if I die, I don't
care. I'll help you wipe them all

648
00:45:08.320 --> 00:45:13.079
out. And over the course of
the series, it's crazy right again number

649
00:45:13.079 --> 00:45:16.119
one, because here's what should I
call somebody? Yeah? Should Over the

650
00:45:17.039 --> 00:45:22.599
course of the show, what winds
up happening is you watch Isaac sort of

651
00:45:22.639 --> 00:45:25.480
internalize what Dracula was really trying to
say to him, because this is something

652
00:45:25.480 --> 00:45:28.480
that we taught. They talked about
in the show a lot. Dracula,

653
00:45:28.519 --> 00:45:31.639
I don't think actually really does want
to kill anybody. Um they murder him

654
00:45:31.679 --> 00:45:35.320
in the end, and his son, but I think he is more than

655
00:45:35.360 --> 00:45:37.719
all bite. He's quite a lot
he is. He is a lot of

656
00:45:37.760 --> 00:45:39.440
bite. But one of the characters
sums it up really nicely. He goes,

657
00:45:39.440 --> 00:45:44.159
this isn't actually an invasion plan.
This is history's most dramatic suicide note

658
00:45:44.960 --> 00:45:47.159
about Dracula. And you realize that
all the stuff that Dracula has been trying

659
00:45:47.159 --> 00:45:51.840
to teach Isaac has been trying to
get him to realize that he's worth more

660
00:45:51.880 --> 00:45:53.679
than the some of the things that's
happened to him in the past. And

661
00:45:53.679 --> 00:45:58.159
then over the remaining seasons, even
after Dracula dies, the impact that our

662
00:45:58.239 --> 00:46:05.239
friendship has on I as a character
results in this person who is so fundamentally

663
00:46:05.239 --> 00:46:07.760
different than when he started. It's
a crazy ride to watch the growth of

664
00:46:07.760 --> 00:46:12.320
one person from the end of this
series to the from the beginning of the

665
00:46:12.360 --> 00:46:15.159
series to the end of the series. I don't, I can't. I

666
00:46:15.239 --> 00:46:22.360
just I know I sound like I
sound like person, but like it literally

667
00:46:22.519 --> 00:46:28.079
is I too? But it literally
is one of the most intriguing relationships I've

668
00:46:28.079 --> 00:46:30.440
ever seen in this series to watch
someone who's really a friendship that really only

669
00:46:30.519 --> 00:46:35.079
lasts one season and then some snippets
of flashbacks as the time goes on.

670
00:46:35.280 --> 00:46:38.039
So what is the core for you? What about this makes this number one?

671
00:46:38.039 --> 00:46:43.320
What about this pizza? The core
is watching? Is? So when

672
00:46:43.320 --> 00:46:46.119
we think of really good relationships,
right, um, the core of a

673
00:46:46.119 --> 00:46:51.239
good relationship, I think is how
does that person help you become who you're

674
00:46:51.280 --> 00:46:53.719
supposed to be or who you'd like
to be? UM, whether that's by

675
00:46:53.800 --> 00:46:59.000
challenging you in a meaningful way,
by providing you with comfort, love,

676
00:46:59.039 --> 00:47:01.480
support. The things of a good
friendship should um whether or you know,

677
00:47:01.800 --> 00:47:07.119
mutual guidance, mutual respect, un
understanding. Right, I think the best

678
00:47:07.159 --> 00:47:12.039
relationships in our lives are the personal
professional push us to be either who we're

679
00:47:12.079 --> 00:47:14.639
supposed to be or who we want
to be. Right maybe we're not that

680
00:47:14.679 --> 00:47:16.599
person right now, but maybe,
like you know, forever, I can

681
00:47:16.599 --> 00:47:20.679
see myself being that person. And
I think back on the relationships in my

682
00:47:20.719 --> 00:47:24.199
life that have been very really positive. It's those are the relationships that I

683
00:47:24.239 --> 00:47:28.159
look back and I'm like, wow, that person really helped me be the

684
00:47:28.239 --> 00:47:34.440
Kyle I am today. Isaac at
the end of that series is an impossibility

685
00:47:34.480 --> 00:47:38.000
without meeting Dracula at the beginning of
it um and which again, it's this

686
00:47:38.079 --> 00:47:43.719
is the craziest Again I sound like
an absolute crazy person, but it truly

687
00:47:43.840 --> 00:47:50.320
is the weirdest thing to watch.
Megomaniacal, suicidal, vampire overlord, basically

688
00:47:50.599 --> 00:47:52.559
someone to live, laugh, love, It's great, it's it's it's nutty

689
00:47:52.639 --> 00:47:55.960
to think about. But who's your
Dracula? Who's the Dracula in your life?

690
00:47:57.360 --> 00:48:01.440
Who is the Dracula in my life
that is also a mass murdering dictator?

691
00:48:01.480 --> 00:48:04.960
You know what is? In fact? Uh? Me and Paul Pott

692
00:48:05.039 --> 00:48:09.880
now, yeah, and I love
you. It's a holiday and Pambodia Okay,

693
00:48:13.400 --> 00:48:15.920
show has gone so fun off the
road. I think we've all learned

694
00:48:15.079 --> 00:48:19.559
something today. Uh, you know, thank you for tuning in to our

695
00:48:19.679 --> 00:48:28.760
lives where we say, I mean, are you talking about that's about Dracula.

696
00:48:28.920 --> 00:48:31.800
I love Dragulin. Well, I
just I just think a great friendship

697
00:48:31.880 --> 00:48:35.880
is one that pushes you to be
the person you're supposed to be. And

698
00:48:35.960 --> 00:48:37.800
that's that the core of it all. Right now, you can do your

699
00:48:37.840 --> 00:48:40.840
thing. I'm sorry. Uh.
If you want to find out more about

700
00:48:40.880 --> 00:48:45.280
the multiple psychoses all roaming around in
Kyle's head, you can go to destin

701
00:48:45.360 --> 00:48:51.519
dorks dot org, where there is
a series of role playing games all about

702
00:48:51.719 --> 00:48:57.880
delving in to which horrible toxic cartoon
madman you love? Find your own?

703
00:48:58.039 --> 00:49:00.639
Find your own, your own find
This is the title of the episode.

704
00:49:00.639 --> 00:49:08.400
This is I'm gonna realize then own
Dracula. Uh. This worked out so

705
00:49:08.480 --> 00:49:15.880
much better than I wanted to do. That's incredible. Oh man, UM,

706
00:49:15.519 --> 00:49:20.400
I guess we should do some plugging. UM so important things. Uh

707
00:49:20.480 --> 00:49:24.039
IPR is still carrying after range.
Go get you off a copy. Um

708
00:49:24.079 --> 00:49:27.239
as of right now, I forget
to tell you. By the way,

709
00:49:27.320 --> 00:49:32.679
this is a huge ray of sunshine
moment for us, not dracular, our

710
00:49:32.800 --> 00:49:39.360
online storefront is officially UM in its
beta stages, and it should be going

711
00:49:39.440 --> 00:49:45.079
live by the beginning of I'm sorry, end of next week, I say

712
00:49:45.119 --> 00:49:49.599
just about basically, so Riley is
working out the kinks. But if you're

713
00:49:49.599 --> 00:49:54.000
interested, I'm picking up a paper
copy of UM. If you're within or

714
00:49:54.079 --> 00:50:00.000
a physical copy of Becoming Banana Bread
can actually order them on dork Start orger.

715
00:50:00.000 --> 00:50:02.559
You'll be able to order them right
around the end of next week.

716
00:50:02.920 --> 00:50:06.639
Ish. UM. It's been something
that we've been really hard at work out.

717
00:50:06.639 --> 00:50:07.400
I know I've been saying that for
like the last couple of videos,

718
00:50:07.639 --> 00:50:10.920
but I have seen the online storefront. Riley did a phenomenal job with it.

719
00:50:12.159 --> 00:50:14.840
You can even order our You can
even buy our PDFs directly from us

720
00:50:14.840 --> 00:50:16.000
now, which is super cool,
amazing. If you still want to go

721
00:50:16.000 --> 00:50:20.039
support h doo Drift RPG you absolutely
can. I get it. If those

722
00:50:20.039 --> 00:50:22.159
are your established totore fronts, you'll
like to have it all in one place.

723
00:50:22.320 --> 00:50:24.039
They're still there. We did not
take them down. We don't want

724
00:50:24.079 --> 00:50:28.239
to take them down because we on
the you know PDF to at least Bloomark

725
00:50:28.239 --> 00:50:30.840
immediate for everybody. But our online
storefront is basically almost ready to go.

726
00:50:31.840 --> 00:50:37.719
And then one last thing. The
first round of shipping for Fear Within has

727
00:50:37.760 --> 00:50:40.800
officially started a right, so people
have already started to get it. Graham

728
00:50:40.840 --> 00:50:45.119
got his copy. It's beautiful.
Thanks Graham, sit right up there with

729
00:50:45.320 --> 00:50:49.840
After the Rain and my hack of
After the Rain Before the Rain, which

730
00:50:49.880 --> 00:50:52.559
is felled differently beautiful. Um.
Yeah, so if you're interested in any

731
00:50:52.559 --> 00:50:55.920
of those things, you can absolutely
do that. But yeah, that's It's

732
00:50:55.960 --> 00:50:59.519
been a pretty big week so far
in terms of desks and dork stuff.

733
00:50:59.599 --> 00:51:00.679
If you've I caught your copy of
Fear With then yet, don't worry.

734
00:51:00.719 --> 00:51:04.880
It means that we're still working on
it. So but everything has been packed

735
00:51:05.239 --> 00:51:10.280
sealed and is not left the desk. He's still under their putting things into

736
00:51:10.440 --> 00:51:14.159
envelopes. Yeah, that's it.
So all right. Um, great,

737
00:51:14.199 --> 00:51:16.679
anything you want to plug before I
give you our weird question? Um,

738
00:51:16.760 --> 00:51:23.320
well, there are some exciting games
coming out. I am excited to go

739
00:51:23.360 --> 00:51:30.000
to gen Con and talk about imagining
games. Um. You know, if

740
00:51:30.000 --> 00:51:35.000
you want to vote for us the
ENnies, you should ye. What defines

741
00:51:35.039 --> 00:51:40.599
the ENnies as kind of the one
RPG award that um really drive a lot

742
00:51:40.599 --> 00:51:45.199
of this subculture. Everyone tends to
vote for the Call of Cthulhu. There's

743
00:51:45.280 --> 00:51:47.480
kind of a way. People call
it the kll Cthulho Awards. But if

744
00:51:47.519 --> 00:51:51.360
you go and you vote for people
you like, you know, one small

745
00:51:51.400 --> 00:51:53.400
game, it's gonna matter a lot
because they have two different rounds. So

746
00:51:53.760 --> 00:51:57.239
you know, vote for us if
you like it. Yeah, you know,

747
00:51:57.400 --> 00:52:00.440
yeah, we're there. Um,
yeah, that's good. That's a

748
00:52:00.440 --> 00:52:01.880
good plug as well. Um,
and thank you to the nnies. If

749
00:52:01.880 --> 00:52:05.960
anyone from the ENNIS is listening for
the nomination, it's cool to be like,

750
00:52:06.000 --> 00:52:08.280
I'm an Any nominated author. Thanks
any It's weird. It's weird.

751
00:52:08.320 --> 00:52:10.480
It's that weird. Does it feel
weird to say for you? Yes,

752
00:52:10.559 --> 00:52:14.079
this is your second time around,
right, Well, you know you're a

753
00:52:14.119 --> 00:52:16.639
two time ANY nominated author. I
guess you're in Any winning author as well.

754
00:52:16.639 --> 00:52:20.480
I guess yeah. I was gonna
send mister just a big shot over

755
00:52:20.519 --> 00:52:24.199
there, like you know. Um, okay, are you ready for your

756
00:52:24.239 --> 00:52:29.639
weird question? Um? Is it
gonna get more weird? Yeah? Why

757
00:52:29.639 --> 00:52:30.639
not? Okay, I don't know
if you can. I don't know if

758
00:52:30.639 --> 00:52:35.079
you can talk with guy. I
don't think I can gonna be like a

759
00:52:35.159 --> 00:52:37.079
nice come down, So Um.
So here's the thing. Um, I

760
00:52:37.159 --> 00:52:44.440
know, I want to be like, what's your favorite evil overlord? Yeah,

761
00:52:44.840 --> 00:52:46.239
you should know what what evil overlord
would you like to go on a

762
00:52:46.320 --> 00:52:49.960
date with? That's great? There
you go, there you go. That's

763
00:52:50.000 --> 00:52:53.280
the appropriate. Thank you for leaning
in. You're welcome. What evil overlord?

764
00:52:53.480 --> 00:52:55.840
What I want to go to date
with? Um? You know,

765
00:52:57.079 --> 00:53:02.920
I think Ursula? Ursula is mcgau
her. Her design is very much based

766
00:53:02.960 --> 00:53:09.559
on divine. Um. I love
um John Waters movies, UM, and

767
00:53:09.840 --> 00:53:16.000
Uh. Villain songs are I think
are really definitive of kind of this this

768
00:53:16.159 --> 00:53:22.960
um this kind of character. And
Poor Unfortunate Souls is a banger. I

769
00:53:22.119 --> 00:53:27.000
arguably the best villain song of all
time. Like we already talked about Maleficent,

770
00:53:27.079 --> 00:53:30.280
but she doesn't have a hero a
villain song, so like that's a

771
00:53:30.400 --> 00:53:34.039
mark against her. And Poor Unfortunate
Souls is definitely a song that I've sung

772
00:53:34.079 --> 00:53:37.840
at karaoke and I am a big
fan. So I'm gonna go Ursela.

773
00:53:38.079 --> 00:53:42.679
I you know what, I Uh, it's interesting that you've mentioned that I'm

774
00:53:42.719 --> 00:53:49.199
going Maleficent. Dude, I want
a gay icon. Maleficents just incredible.

775
00:53:49.239 --> 00:53:52.280
We love, we love like this
listen. Have you seen the live action

776
00:53:52.400 --> 00:53:54.079
movies? No, I have.
I've seen them, both of them.

777
00:53:54.280 --> 00:54:00.320
Is that where the gay icon Maleficent
thing comes from? She has born and

778
00:54:00.559 --> 00:54:05.480
she's mean, Like, you can't
really explain gay icons like you know you

779
00:54:05.519 --> 00:54:07.519
have like Dorothy and Maleficent. Like
I say, I'm the wrong person as

780
00:54:07.800 --> 00:54:14.719
I think. I think gay icons
come down to being over the top of

781
00:54:14.800 --> 00:54:20.519
melodramatic. But then also, um, like given a finger to the establishment.

782
00:54:20.679 --> 00:54:23.880
Yeah, and the seeing of Maleficent
walking in to the court and being

783
00:54:23.920 --> 00:54:30.840
like you didn't invite me to the
Yeah, I think it's like it brought

784
00:54:30.000 --> 00:54:35.199
the gay community running. It was
like, yes, okay, you're our

785
00:54:35.280 --> 00:54:37.800
queen. I was gonna say,
I would need to ask somebody who is

786
00:54:37.800 --> 00:54:42.559
from that community, because I am
decidedly not. The first live action movie

787
00:54:43.280 --> 00:54:47.159
is better than I thought it was
gonna be. So that's my that's my

788
00:54:49.760 --> 00:54:52.639
my review, all right, and
that that is it. Um. Thank

789
00:54:52.639 --> 00:54:55.519
you also much for listening. Thank
you all for being here, Graham,

790
00:54:55.519 --> 00:54:59.239
thanks for letting me hang out with
you, buddy. This has been Batman.

791
00:55:00.199 --> 00:55:02.760
Thank you all so much for listening
to Desk and Dirks. By the

792
00:55:02.800 --> 00:55:06.199
way, one more thing, that
I'm gonna mention. So a lot of

793
00:55:06.199 --> 00:55:09.119
our longer form videos have We've got
some good watch time on them, but

794
00:55:09.119 --> 00:55:13.480
I want to increase it. So
here's what we're gonna do. Starting with

795
00:55:13.559 --> 00:55:16.679
the next Not Monday video, because
Riley is doing his last review from the

796
00:55:16.760 --> 00:55:20.199
channel for a little bit um as
he kind of takes a step back and

797
00:55:20.280 --> 00:55:25.079
resituated with his his real non desks
and doorks life. But starting with the

798
00:55:25.159 --> 00:55:30.679
Tuesday Cheerlist video, there's gonna be
a weird phrase that I'm going to utter.

799
00:55:30.840 --> 00:55:34.679
And if you are able to identify
the weird phrase in the comments of

800
00:55:34.719 --> 00:55:37.400
that video, No, I'm not
going to tell you where in the video

801
00:55:37.400 --> 00:55:38.960
it is. You can just be
like, yo, this is it in

802
00:55:38.960 --> 00:55:43.039
the comments and the first comment I
see with it will get some sort of

803
00:55:43.079 --> 00:55:45.920
prize from us, probably probably PDFs
of our games. But that's it.

804
00:55:45.960 --> 00:55:51.800
That's my I believe the phrase is
Dracula did nothing wrong. Dracula did nothing

805
00:55:51.800 --> 00:55:57.400
wrong. What do I get?
One crisp fist bump? Yeah, all

806
00:55:57.480 --> 00:56:00.400
right with that, folks, Desks, dirks, I'm Kyle Ott for Dusted

807
00:56:00.480 --> 00:56:02.880
Dork's that's Graham Dance. I was
gonna I was cueing him to be like,

808
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hey, what's up. But anyway, zipperty zap zou stay bogging my friends