Two recording live from sunny New Jersey, HiT's the Desks and Dark Show starring
him Kyle Lot I am the dork. Hi, I'm Graham Gains here to
take you on through Welcome. Welcome, And if you're wondering why we are
not doing any video today, um, the recording setup has changed. I
am actually no joke in New Jersey. I am with Graham. We are
here in his apartment. Yeah, same room, and so in honor of
that, we're doing a special show today because we're in the same room.
Um, no, tell us tell us a little bit about what what we're
doing today. I will, but I have a special surprise announcement for you,
Kyle, oh everyone else. I am locked in for gen Con.
Baby, let's go, dude. That's awesome, Yo, who are you
going? I am going with the Imagining Games and Pete Patrucia, who is
a wonderful good friend yet Metatopia a number of years ago. Um. His
games have been used at Save Against Fear for a lot of different reasons.
Yeah. Um, I'm very excited to help him out. I'm gonna be
running a lot of games for him. So awesome. RPGA, congratulations,
that's super cool, got my plane ticket, got everything figured out this time
off of work. It is official. That is awesome, man. So
I'll see there. I'm I'm worth medifius there. So it's gonna be exciting.
Oh so cool. Oh I love it. I'm actually really excited.
I think I'm gonna be demoing the Skyrim Adventures game. What high board?
Um? And then is that the board game in a box is the board
game in a box. It's like a cooperative one. You're like, you're
running around basically just doing kind of like the Fallout game that was around.
Yes, but from my understanding it is uh not to to dog in the
Fallout one, but yeah you should. The skyrom one was apparently is very
very very very very good. Yeah. Well, supposedly they fixed all of
the problems that people had with the Fallout board game. I wish there was
so many. It just it didn't feel like fall It didn't feel like an
RPG. Yeah, and I think they took a lot of that feedback and
they fixed it. I have only ever watched it played. Some friends of
mine at our local game store actually bought it, brought it in and played
it, and it's like out Out. It is out out out Backer's habit
is. I believe in retail at this point too, when it's kind of
exciting. So yeah, from my understanding, it is very good. For
when I watched the playthrough of it, it was really entertaining to watch.
So if it is half as fun to play as it was to watch,
then they have done a very good job. So I've just seen the little
preview of the tiny h dragon born guy. Yeah, that's that's all I've
really saying. So I don't even know it was out close enough foost boost
road Boost Road, All right, now that that's happened, because I'm really
happy that you're going to jank on that. Yeah, that's to be super
exciting. What what is what are we doing today? What is the special
episode for us being in the same room, in the same state. That's
right. It is to commemorate the fact that this is special for us.
We're not ever zoomed, We're here sitting in the same the same room.
And so I asked for you to come up with what your absolute favorite fictional
relationships were. Yes. Um, From a design point of view, I
ultimately think that it's all about story, and story is all about character.
What inspires us about RPGs is because people fall in love with relationships with characters.
These are fictional people that we one hundred percent care about the things that
occur that the their foibles, there, the rise, the fall, and
people feel so close to these. So the inspiration that comes from these kinds
of media I think are so important to game design and for creating the kind
of games that you want. Yeah, and that's truthfully where I'm at.
So I'll describe my process. Yeah. So the first thing I did was
a franchise rule because as I was going through this of the because we we
we each have a list of three or five right that we're gonna talk about,
so we're gonna do. I opia five I had five, might have
to break my franchise world. Then it because I brought up thing that I
really liked up with thirty without even trying, and had to whittle it down
to my top five in fairness. Oh by the way, um hello Emmy
any nominated author of Graham Gens Oh hello, Emmy nominated author. Hello.
Uh yeah, this has been a busy week. We both got nominated as
part of the Level one anthology as well, which is super cool for us,
um. But so you know, a lot of other stuff kind of
going on this week, so I hadn't have the time to sink into them
as much. But I realized that of the list three of my relationships I
wanted to talk about, we're all from the same property. Star Wars was
not Star Wars. Okay, my Star Wars at all. Or the Witch
not the Witchery Witcher not Star Wars. Um. I realized as I was
going through a lot of the fictional relationships I really like, Um, I
wanted to talk about three relationships that I like. I didn't just like the
relationship in these characters. I love them. I thought they did something special
for the stories they were in, for the themes of those story worries um
and made me think about myself as a writer, as a creative, how
I experiment with characters. So I really leaned heavier into the quality side of
things than the quantity side of things, at least on my end. Rose
like because I had, I try to say, I probably I could talk
about I have thirty that I was deeply pass Well, then you're you're just
better than me. I think we have to take it that way, you
know, But we can let the people in our booming YouTube bodies decide.
Yeah, shout out to everybody. But so I had a franchise rule.
UM. And I also tried my best to choose different types of relationships.
UM. I didn't want to go like all romantic, all friendship, all
familial. UM. I wanted to mix and match. UM. And so
that's kind of where I'm at right now. UM with him, I do
have five I could pick. I could pick a lower two, which I'll
probably start with those ones. I tried my best to do that. But
honestly, again, when I came up with thirty, a lot of the
diversity came up through the whole thing. And it's always really interesting when I
had to pare it down to five what they ended up being, and so,
you know, be what it may and whatever reveals about me as a
person what these end up being. I also tried to do that. I
tried to think about the different kinds of relationships and why they're there, but
they ultimately came down to one very specific thing. Most of them is real
good friends. Interesting. Okay, do you want to hear Yeah, I
would love to give you the last word, so I will go first.
So most of these things are you imagine these fictional relationships iconic characters, they
tend to be best friends of some kind, you know, things like Your
Robin Hood and Little John, which did not make my top five, but
it was close. And this one is different a story archetype that I come
to again. It again is the line of teacher and student and then student
becoming the master. And this is a story that I'm obsessed with. And
one of my all time favorite movies of this is The Mask of Zoro from
nineteen ninety eight. Really okay, it's no good, all right, directed
by Martin Campbell who reinvigorated this old character. And he has done it to
James Bond twice. Yeah, because Martin Campbell directed Goldenye and Casino Royale,
so rebooting James Bond for New generations twice over, So clear this is this
thing, and I think Mask Zoro is incredible. So my number five is
Old Zero and Young Zoro. It's the old generation into the new. It's
some of the best training montages of all time, with old Zoro just being
sick of this like young Buck and then when they come together and seeing these
transformation and how they're different and how they become their own man. It's my
favorite example of this trope and I never get tired of it. I watch
a lot of Woosha movies. I love the kung Fu Master train the student
and then them incoming wise, and there's many of these movies that I think
structurally are exceptional. But in terms of the relationship itself, what these two
people represented to each other. How do you make Zoro fresh? Just rip
off the katamone Cristo Boom and you have an amazing movie. So my number
five is old zero New Zoro Masca's Zoro ninety eight. Baby. Um,
when you were thinking master and apprentice or teacher student relationships, m Leon from
Leon the Professional was on my potentially ones because obviously that relationship is the whole
or conceit of that film. Yeah, you know, weird sexual tension with
it? Oh God, so excited. I did not think it was weird
sexual tenser. But you could need to watch that French movie again. Maybe
that should taking a completely different direction though. Um, I'm a big A
lot of these are very serious. Um, the relationships on this list I
picked were really serious in terms of like their tone, their importance to the
story. But there's a very long running program that I have enjoyed in fits
and starts. I don't know if I really love it as much as I
did when I first started watching it, but when I started coming back to
this list, I really love a relationship between two friends. And the thing
about really good friendships is, yes, they're serious sometimes, but they also,
I think, teach you a little bit about yourself. And I can't
imagine this show functioning without these two characters having the relationship they have. My
number five is Jakin Finn from Adventure Yeah, I really again, it sounds
so's It sounds so funny because like a lot of these I was like,
wow, these are like serious literary terms, but this friendship between these two
characters feels serious in a lot of ways. I was rewatching some Adventure Time
stuff because I was watching, like hanging out with my younger cousin and they
had just gotten into it, and I was like, wow, a lot
of the stuff that's here is like solid communication advice for adults. So,
but like how to keep a friendship working and functioning? And I like,
is there's a couple of times in the series that Jake Holt's been accountable for
some of the poor decisions that he makes. And as somebody who's been that
friend for others and has had that friend do that for me, I think
that's a really valuable lesson to learn. It's it's something that as I'm thinking
about the themes of that SERI, I really I thought that relationship episode of
The Cool is there a moment for you? I mean, it's a long
series of a lot of episodes off the top of your head that you think
defines that relationship to you. I don't, And that's actually why I picked
it, which because I think if you look at them in the moments of
Jake and Finn together individually, I don't know if they're special. But when
you look at the whole of what that relationship did and built within that series,
it's a sum greater than the whole of its parts, which I think
is why it ranks so low on my list, but why it made the
list of general No. No. Five Five of all time is not low
at all, you know, Like that's why we don't do a top ten
or whatever or a Top one hundred twenty seven. I mean we should though,
Yeah, that's a good idea, a good fresh idea good. Yeah,
we should do a hundred strike, one hundred and twenty seven things and
then randomly pick numbers out of a number generator. We should be much good
at this. That's why you're the door it is. That's exactly what who's
your number four? Mind? Number four? Okay, So I'm gonna tell
you the property and I just off the top of your head, want to
know who you think came from this? So this is pretty well known,
beloved, it's the Princess Bride. What is the best relationship in the Princess
Bride? It's physic and a monta fu yeads. Maybe I was like,
wait a second, I was thinking about my favorite characters, but just my
favorite scenes and the sharing of things and why the emotional core of this beloved
movie. It's not the wonderful Grandpa and the kid. It's not you know,
as badass as you know dread Pirate Roberts and Buttercup is. It's not
the hilarious lines given by Wallace Shawn or the evil you know king I'm powder.
I bet my life on it, you know, I identifying a setless
tasteless poison immediately it's hilarious. No, it's it's the punning and making Wallace
Shawn upset and loving each other and them being villains, but you love them
and the way the story is framed from their perspective, and it carries through
that section of the movie into when Wallace Shawn is gone and they're the ones
that find each other again and decide to go find Wesley. It's it's great.
It's incredible in terms of the best friends and the warmth that they share
and these lovely moments to care about them so much. Um, I think
about, like, this is why they beat Little John and Robin hood really
because I think about just like again the scene on the boat, did anybody
want the pretty much? And like stop jokes like it's I get such a
warmth, a warmth in me. I wanted to make this top five more
diverse with the kinds of relationships your hero villains, you know, the your
your Batman and Joker. You put Batman a joker. I keep just trying
guest here, And honestly, what it ended up being was that my top
my top relationships were these friendships that felt so normal and real and grounded in
a way that I loved being in that space and existing with it. So
that's why India Montoya and I mean, let's call him Honor with the Giants
because what he is. I know his name is Gant. That's why number
four. It's a great one, all right. So, uh, Star
Wars didn't make my list, but it was not an overwhelming that's at four,
um, and I so there are three people involved in this relationships as
it is. I'm gonna see if you can maybe guess it. Um maybe,
Man, I don't know. I don't trying to give you more clues.
I don't know if I is it Han and Chewy and Luke it is
not Han and Chewy and Luke because I, even though I'm not a big
Star Wars guy, I in my top maybe fifteen, I put Han and
Han and Chewy because who doesn't want to be the charming Rogan is non verbal
monster. Um, it's it's incredible and I don't love Star Wars and I
could acknowledge it is rate that it is probably the better relationship when I was
thinking about this one laughing up for a ball. That's it's just I shouggest
we let the look you in right, Like that's all that matters, Um,
so Jeremy. By the way, we have long joke that Jeremy is
the Chewbacca to buy Han Solo because I was the first one of us with
a car and it was this beat up Nissan that would get us out of
way more scrapes than it should have. Um, And I mean, what
NERD doesn't want to be Han Solo? I guess, But well it's so,
I'm so my friend Jeremy front of the show. We all love him.
Um, you've met him a couple of times. It's not very talkative.
Um to the point where he doesn't make these weird guttural noise general noises
a lot. I was like, nice to beat you. I'm Graham and
he work. We're all like I looked at you and you just like shook
your hand like, don't talk. I just I just remember people being like
coming up to play bana bread and that's safe. And Jeremy is who's six
foot five and very muscular, is this wearing this banana costume And I'm going,
oh, hi, I'm Kyle walking the booth in Isaac said, Hi,
I'm Isaac, Hi'm a banana. Just Um, anyone ever FOURD is
je I mean my number four is you're everybody ask no my number four.
I was thinking about relationships that were core to the Star Wars saga, and
although I think the prequels are are are rough. UM. I really liked
the relationship between Qui gon obi Wan and then a young Anakin interesting because it
goes back to the mentor mentee dynamic. UM. I really loved the way
that I don't know Quigan represents a sort of break from change. Um obi
Wan is sort of trying to navigate his role already, and obviously spoilers if
any of you care about the original Star Wars trilogy, whicheck out anybody does.
When Quigan dies, he rust into this thing where he's trying to take
care of this kid, and he finds himself really ill equipped for it.
UM. That relationship that Trio, that relationship that Trio has winds up forming
the basis for that entire saga. M This was one I picked, not
because I love everything that the relationship stands for, but I love what it
did for the story. UM a sort of a catalyst for the growth of
these characters and the growth of the world itself. I remember um listening to
a phenomenal interview with John Williams, who did the score for Star Wars and
did Duel of the Fates and obviously like that's like one of the most epic
songs ever to sword Fight too, just for general um. But what he
points out in that interview is that people like, oh, it's super triumph,
and he's like, no, it's it's not. The Triumph is not
for the good guys. The triumph is for the bad guys. Like when
Qui Gon dies, it represents a death of this relationship for Obi Wan who
needed a mentor, and for Anakin, who needed a father figure. And
it's really interesting how that relationship winds up foreshadowing basically the entire narrative arc of
Star Wars from there on out. So I thought it was cool, obviously,
Like you know, you're you're not saying much by uh if one is
to give critique to the prequels, obviously, but I have a pretty fundamental
one, sure, which is that not enough jar Jar banks got it.
Uh. Georgia's fine, He's he's there for the kids. I actually don't
mind you. I never I never had a problem with jar Jar and our
Wars people. You know, they tend to be really accepting a change,
So um, I can't tell what do you what do you think? I
never had a problem because he was he was the new um you know R
two D two. They were like, we need the cartoon rabbit for the
children to laugh at. Like that's fine, Like I didn't I never really
cared. Yeah, I didn't mind it. The fundamental change that needed to
happen between um A quin Quinn Gun yeah nine, he needed he needed to
be more distant. But more fundamentally than that, it needed to be Qui
Gon who didn't want to train him, and Obi Wan who did. Interesting
because then by Qui Gon dying, then he would be did not have his
father figure to help teach him, thus leading to a poorly trained an Again,
I think the idea of them obi Wan and Anakin being best friends doesn't
make sense if he never liked him in the first place. That's why you
have this awkward transition of the second movie, because we're at a pitch of
gundocks. It should have been obi Wan who wanted to train him, and
quin Gon say no, so that when he dies there's a reason why it
happens. It doesn't make any sense of see, I disagree because I think
it's not the training thing necessarily, but Qui Gon's a loving figure and the
Jedi kind of suck at that. Having the loving figure die, which is
where Anakin needs to not be a bad guy, I think is what sets
it up for the future. Although I do like the idea of because you're
you're not wrong. The transition is a little jarring. Obi Wan didn't want
to do it, and he still didn't want to do it, and they
never seem like friends. So the idea of this, I like what you're
getting at, because again I'm totally I think there's no such thing as bad
ideas. Yeah, there's only bad execution. So looking at something as a
deconstructed of its elements is fine. Like, there's no such thing as it,
So we can talk about the prequels and can talk about its characters.
You know, it's not like, oh, this thing is inherently bad.
That's not true, right, because things are inherently bad. Pete Pepsi inherently
a bad idea. That is a bad idea. Shout out to Riley,
that world's biggest Pepsi fan. God, he tried his best. He under
my desk is he I couldn't bring him. Unfortunately, he's Actually he's in
Jersey training at an Oakley store. That's us, that's his new job.
Might have been look at the trunk of your car. But the idea of
the barrier being separated and the mistakes being laid that caused Anakin to go from
you, the Charles and One to this dark figure um It Qui gon dying
didn't actually change anything. It just forced us upon somebody and then we don't
have it. Him being removed from it meant then that obi Wan was had
to train him on his own and wasn't prepared to do it. Although,
like I said, I think I think I disagree fundamentally a little bit with
that, but I think I think you are right. I think the obi
Wan relationship probably could have been executed more so. Maybe I could just be
do the Qui gon Anakin thing, but I think it's important to think that
he's like a dad figure though more than anything else. Anyway. I just
thought about that. But what is number free grams my number three? So?
Uh, you talked about the multiple franchises thing, you know, wanting
to only stick to one. Um I tried to do with the same genre
like it was hard to do that because we've previously talked about westerns. We
just did it because we just spent a long time talk about red Dead,
Redemption and all these other things, and you talked about watching you know,
gun Smoke with your Grandfather and all these other movies and stuff. So my
third is a Western. Yes, okay, okay, um oh oh oh,
what are you doing? The relationship between Tuco and What's Space? You
know when you say that to be pleasant relationships, I know angelized. What
is the what is the Clinton Swoods character's name? He's got no name?
Literally literally the whole Yeah, no, no, no, this is all
best friends. I didn't do Toombstone because that was like number six. Oh
I love Tombstone. It's incredible. There's two kinds of people, people who
love Toomstone and Quota and the people who haven't seen it, like it's it's
amazing. Boys happened everything out of his mouth, heure Western Gibberick. When
I think about the the rogues on a journey, the supporting each other,
the love, the opposites being best friends, you can't beat Butch and Sundance.
Yes, Butch and Sundance is incredible. Every scene where they're together is
incredible. The idea of opposites attract the silent badass don't get any better than
Sundance. Every single scene Butch being the perfect like mouth but like actually has
no skills incredible. Yeah, you know, to be fair, it helps
that you have two of the most charismatic super movie stars who ever lived playing
these parts, Um at the height of their acting prowess. I that's that's
fair that you get two people of that caliber at that point in their careers,
with that role, that director, that script. I there are so
many incredible scenes. But um, when Harvey challenges Is for leadership of the
gang is just about the best scene ever filmed. You have Butch trying to
talk his way out of it. You have him going up to Sundance and
being cowardly and being like, I don't want to be a sore loser,
but if I lose kill him, Sundance goes gladly and then does this little
smile and like tiny little way that Marvi everything about it, everything about that
scene from getting the end, it's perfect. And I continue to think about
it, and as I was trying to sort my thirty down to five.
I kept thinking about that scene in particular and was like, that's it.
That's why it kept rise at the top, Rise at the top. Butch
and Sundance number three, it's a fantastic one. This much one is from
a movie you watched recently on your family TV. We're talking about in my
car Gimlion Lego Loss. It is not Gimli and Legs from Lord of the
Rings. Um, So I did a really deep set of push. I
love Lord of the Rings. I love the movies, but I thought about
what relationship I think is the longest, both thematically and meaningful to me.
Truthfully, this is kind of a selfish pick a little bit. Um.
I think Gimley Lightlis is a phenomenal like Gimli Lightlis is just one of the
best bro moment friendships. I think in a movie, it's just funny about
a friend about a friend. UM, I love that one. I think
Sam Wise Gamgi is the goat. I just I think he's not my favorite
character. I think he is objectively the best character in that movie. Um.
I that one didn't make my list because I still struggle to find out
what he gets from Rodo in that exchange of friendship. Um, I don't
know. Good dude, he's an ultimate wing man. He is. UM.
I thought about Gandoff and Bilbo's relationship, which I still think is like
it's two old friends who are just like realizing, you know, maybe our
time in this world is starting to come to an end and we maybe how
much more, how many more rides out in the sunset do we have together?
I love that. Um. I love Mary and Pippin just being like
chaos goblins. Yeah, but for my money, there is no more important
relationship than Lord of the Rings in Arwin and are Igorn. Whoa what Yeah,
that's that's fascinating. It's gonna be take into this baby. So from
a standpoint, right, Lord of the Rings is I think ostensibly it's a
book about a lot of things, a story about a lot of things,
but ultimately it's about change, and those two characters are two people who change
drastically over the course of that time period, and they do it for one
another in a lot of ways. I think it's this is another this is
going to get into some some weirdly personal territory. But I've been really lucky
in my life to see a lot of great relationships and a lot of great
marriages in my family, my friends who have had you know, awesome,
awesome partnerships for as long as time can go on. And the one thing
that keeps coming up is like, whether it's good or bad or you know,
easy times are hard times. There is a measure of self sacrifice that
comes with being in a partnership that lasts um and I think people in love
stories, particularly in fantasy love stories, tend to gloss over that. We
talked about this at lunch day when we were talking about Happily ever After and
what are the consequences, Yeah right, people like, oh, we just
cash the check and we move on, right, But Arwin and Aragorn are
two people that should have cashed the check and moved on one hundred years ago,
and when they were supposed to get there happily ever after, and then
real world circumstances stepped in and through self sacrifice, through growth, through change,
they wind up finding each other again. To me, it's a really
moving love story and I really like it. UD like it just because Aragon
is one of those humans who's like weirdly longly lived. No, I think
I don't know. I like it because he's because he's like eighty or something.
He's like one hundred and twenty years. I don't even know how.
I mean, Tolkien plays around fast to lose with age in those books anyway,
But just I find that relationship really meaningful because they both have something to
lose and they both say this person is worth losing or gaining whatever. It's
fine, but they'd make it decision. I don't know, it's it's I
I feel like Erwin. I mean, she's one of the only female characters
in that book, you know. Yeah, and then struck on the movies,
by the way, well, not necessarily strictly, well most Here's the
thing is that people talk about cannon and sticking to things. There are a
number of things that I think that the movies do better the books did,
and I specifically think that's Erwin. Yeah, because Erwin is not much so
in that famous if you want him, come and claim him. That's like
another random elf in the book. That's not heroin what that's crazy. Ye,
So she is a much better character in the movies. Yeah, And
it is fantastic in the films, the random female elf who shows up does
that. It never goes back that's bizarre. Yeah, that's bizarre. Man.
Anyway, Yeah, that's what if? What if? What what about?
I am no, man, isn't that a more compelling love story with
aragon? Um? You know? I mean she's defending Mary at that point.
No, I know, but she like I know it is, but
she has the eyes. She has the eye for air gun he does.
It's so tragic, and I'm gonna be honest anyone. I'm not like her
as a character. I know, objective, just a lir but I did
never I'm like, no, get out here, lady, you're not man.
Listen, you got about like one hundred and some years of or like
forty some years of love to over it. I know she's because it's because
they've been in love for two hundred years. That's why you're you're clearly agist.
This is why this is your favorite romance of all time. It's some
of my favorite romans of all time, but it is it is the one
I picked for this point. Nice, we should do fictional romance. That'd
be a fun list. Oh my gosh, yeahs your your yours would only
be elves and humans. You clearly have a bike. Oh god, no,
I already know what my number one would be. It's not all right,
do you tell me your number two? Tell me you're not right.
So my number two, I'm very glad that you you uh blaze the way
because my number two is also a triple. Oh okay, okay um.
We're dipping into possibly my favorite franchise of all time, Cosmic Encounter. Yeah.
I love the weird parasite guy who's on the cover. It's so like
personal. You know, he's literally sucking his brains out. Yeah. I
like Star Trek more than I like most things. It's really personal. And
my argument about all media is always about character. And I think one of
the main reasons that Star Wars stuck the landing was because people cared about his
characters. And I am the entire idea of a con circuit at all.
It's specifically because Star Trekoventions took off because you had the original series and then
it was gone. It was like three seasons, and then you know,
they desperately wanted it, and it was speculative fiction in a time that people
wanted it. You know, you had a black woman as a bridge officer,
you had a Japanese American man, you had a Russian all this stuff.
It was imaginative and interesting. There's some really thought provoking, excellent science
fiction in it. But the best thing about Star Trek is that they nailed
the relationship immediately, the Kirk Spock Bones dynamic about to say it was Kirk.
It's just about the best scripple relationship friendship of all time and it and
it defines how contrast occurs. Um. It defines all of the relationships going
forward in Star Trek. Every time you're writing new characters, they go back
to, well, it's this like this is that defined it. What you
have is this incredibly rich and complex diversity of philosophy with the three of them.
You have Bones, who is all human, he's all compassion um,
he's the doctor who cares. He's a bleeding heart. He needs it.
Like you know, damn you for thinking about what this is. There's human
lives, there's real things that you have Spock, who's all logic, who's
probably always right, but and you have Kirk in the middle. Yeah.
I really fight against a lot of the weird stereotypes of the jj Abram stuff
that Kirk is this like swaggering Kurt, charismatic frat boy because you watch you
watch the original series. He's so level headed and like and logical. He
strikes the military post. He feels like a military commander is. He's not
this like swash buckling rogue like kissing alien ladies and punching things like he's he
is like a boy's fantasy of what a ship captain is. But he's a
good leader and he's logical, is down to it. He knows how to
listen to both sides and land the middle. This is why Kirk is so
great. Yeah, and why I continue to defend him as a character.
He's a good guy and people lose that. I think in the he's not
the fun stuff, that's what you write. Like when I think of Kark,
I'm like, oh, he's banging some green chicken, right, which
I just is not at all what the character is. But it's become as
a as a cultural standpoint. It's like the way that Hunter Ris Thompson has
become a Halloween costume. It's a stereotype that's Kirk's thing. But he's really
this perfect point between bones and Spock. Yeah, I agree, that's my
number two. That's a good one. Um, I know it's so funny
you mentioned a particular film earlier on your list, because, um, if
I if I tell you my number two, I'm Tombstone. Um it is
Tombstone, Tombstone my relationship. Do you think I'm gonna put for a Tombstone?
There really is only one choice. I think Wide Up is my friend?
Well, Hey, I got lots of friends. I don't Boom the
best line in Tombstone? Why are you doing the stock? Wide Up is
my friend? Well, I got lots of friends. I don't I And
how did I know the best line of the movie? Because you love Boom
movies? I? Um, this, this is this is everything that I
wanted Sam Wise and Frodo to be because it's reciprocal. Um, I'm just
gonna being are you sure as can? I do? I hate him?
Don I made him? I hate him now I really hate I really hate
him. He's an educated man. The well John a Ringo Ringoes an educated
man. I um to. It's such an infinitely quotable film. But that
friendship, I think is the core of what elevates Tomson from what could have
been a really shlocky western into what it is, which for me is one
of the most enduring Westerns I've ever watched. Um Doc Holiday is this mercurial,
incredible, out of his mind character who knows that the West is coming
to an end at some point, and that he is probably going to come
to an end before it does. Um and lives his life literally like the
candle is on fire and both ends and I'm just going to do everything that
I can, and winds up striking up a friendship with probably the on paper
the person who would be his friend the least, which is this really kind
of bog standard law man. But the relations he is a block of wood.
He truly is. And that's what is the best part about it is
you watch two people who have very similar skill sets but wildly different personalities come
to this incredible mutual love and respect for one another. And at the end
of that film, when Dac Holiday does die and he gives up, that's
funny wider up his final send off. It's so emotional because it's not just
like this hero is being done with his journey. It's the end of a
friendship that really truly matters. I do understand that last bit like him,
like Dac Holiday dying in bed, he looks down at his feet and because
that's funny. Yeah, did you do you understand that moment? Why?
Because he thought he would be hanging from a rope or no? Yeah,
because that's the phrase that you say, you're gonna die with your boots on.
Yeah, And that's why I guess why guys kick off their boots when
they're being hanged, because they're like, you're gonna die with your boots on,
which means you're gonna get hanged. So his last line of the movie
sucks, Yeah, he goes, well, yeah, because he never expected
to die in there By Friends, which is I think, And again,
what I think makes it so meaningful is like Doc feels like the sam Wise
of this relationship, where Doc is willing to move heaven and Earth, even
dying of tuberculosis, knows that that Wider can't beat Johnny Ring going a gunfight,
knows it in his freaking bones, and still goes out, dying of
tuberculosis to kill this man to save his friend. And despite all that absolute
like sam Wise level activity, Wider gives it back in spades, this stability,
this friendship, and this consistent reminder that yes, you are this weird
ethereal mad cap, absolute lunatic. But you're my friend and I love you,
and there's so much love and respect between these two characters, and genuinely
is so moving. I keep coming back to that film time and time again,
and I continue to come back to it, not just because the writing
is whip smart and it's great and funny in all the right ways, not
just because there's some actually a great gun play, UM, some awesome,
really funny side characters as well, but that relationship between Doc and between Wider,
it just is the cornerstone of that film for me and always will be.
Literally everything out of Bell Kilmer's mouth is perfect. Yes, there's never
been a part in human history played so perfectly as he does in that part.
And it's it's one of those things that like honorary Oscar and it's like
how you know, you know Oscar is so white. The true tragedy is
that there was not like a national attention for that performance because it's mud it
is how good. It is absolutely spectacular in every single way, shape and
form. And I have very cosmopolitan no, no very that's my number two
is a holiday and wider good. I'm so glad you did that one,
um, because I think that was number six on my list. Yeah,
because my whole list was composed of these like best friendships, and I thought
about what they were and what they represented, and they're the love and the
contrast of Butch and Sundance, like landed it to me. And I mean,
I probably have seen Tombstone more than I've seen any other movie, like
every how many times every wad rely off there. For me, it's it's
mind blowing by excellent choice. I'm so kind we got to talk about it.
Yeah, all right, are you right? For my number one?
I am stoked. I'm really stoked. All right. So when I was
making this list, this is probably the first one I put down, And
then as I was sorting out my top thirty into my ten into my five,
it just kept sliding to the top and slide to the top and slide
at the top. Um um. I mean, uh, this is one
that everyone's gonna know because I feel like it was the most famous, if
not culturally fundamental, if not representative, relationship of the nineteen nineties. What
is the most famous relationship of two people on TV of the entire nineties?
Oh? My god, maybe a little spooky, Uh, maybe a little
adventury. Uh, you going on cases looking for secret bucking angels up there
and then Spikes so much better. Oh, I agree, but I think
I always think people would go with the angel once to Spike is infinitely better.
And and he's it's a better relationship too, like Spike Ventures in the
nineties. The most fundamental, clearly, this is not a show that a
fan of maybe not all right psych was a psych was the two thousands.
My number one favorite fictional relationship of all time is Mulder and Scully. Oh
they are both incredible. Um, Mulder by itself is one of my face
So I've made similarly a top ten list of fictional characters of all time and
this was one like you know, get to know you are? Question I
had for a while and I would send to people around in college, and
I put Sherlock Holmes slash Molder in one of the slots because I was cheating,
because he's straight up Sherlock Holmes. And one of the fundamental things that
changes about it, It's why it's a genius. What if we have Watson
and Holmes but except the doctor is not another British guy but a redheaded lady
who is specifically not believing in it. It's still Watson in home because you
have the genius detective, but he's also the man who's also the believer and
the spiritualist. Because you always have these stereotypes about men being logical and women
being more emotional, and so you invert that where you have this mercurial detective
who takes in feelings and believes you know, and then the scientist is again
Scully, the skeptic. How do you take already one of the best relationships
of all time in in literature, Holmes and Watson, and how do you
make it better? Well by attaching them too what is already probably my favorite
TV show, twilight Zone and instead of Devin that have a consistent characters for
every twilights in episode Boom X Files. X Files is incredible because you get
your Monster of the Week, you get your sci fi, you get your
horror, you get your exploration. You have all this stuff, but then
you have a core relationship that you absolutely love. Whoa I mean, that's
all you need. That's how you become one of the best shows of all
time. Boom, very good, Moldern Scully X Files number one. Yeah,
that's a good one. How's a good one? My number one was
the first one as well, by the way, that propped up on my
list, and I always by the way, so I as a core memory
of X Files. My parents used to watch X Files in their room at
night, and they would wait specifically when they would go I would they thought
I was asleep because they're like, this kid is gonna love X Files and
I that's why I don't remember it being a show in the nineties, because
I was born ninety three. I'm like, so i'd be like, it's
going back, but I didn't actually watch X Files, but just that's my
that's my first core memory of it is that hearing the theme song. Your
core memory at least one similar is even though I'm a little bit older than
you, I was too young in the early seasons to watch it. Um
and uh. The theme song scared me to my core that when my parents,
also in their bedroom, would watch X Files on Sunday nights, I
would run into my room and throw my pillow over my head as not to
hear the theme song or else I would have gotten nightmare. I was trying
to get. Give me no, I know, Like that was early I
was like the first couple of years when I was very young, and now
some of my favorite shows of all time because I don't know, I'm not
doing so good minute, No, it's it is a good right show.
You're you're this boy, you are I mean, you're definitely s boogie boy.
But then that's besides call me your number one, my dude, So
my number one is from an animated TV series, first and foremost, and
three of the relationships on this TV series, uh, we're front running list.
And as I started to think about this, there really is only one
that truly interested me. M not just because of the length of time that
these two characters spend, but the impact that one character has in the other
once that character is gone. A h Iro and Zuko was my six.
It's not my one. I I had is like eight or nine. But
then I remembered ang Ang and Apa and I was like, oh, that's
so much better. But I still couldn't crack my tie. I would argue
that Appa is the most useful character in that show, Taca the second serusiful
character of that show. Oh I don't agree. I do agree with that,
but like we were not talking about Avatar we're talking about help my friends
with my We're rang, We're talking about Castlevania. My number one relationship is
that is uh, it is Isaac and Dracula. Um go. So if
you know what is this the like Netflix ship? It is which I loved?
Um, I don't know. I don't know if I'm in the minority
or not. Don't care. I think the show is. I don't know
if people liked it or not. I don't. I think it's brilliant.
It's a ten out of ten show. It's in my top five animated shows
of all time. I love the show incredibly, and this relationship is largely
a part of it. Um. So, when we meet Dracula, he
is on his mission to do two things right, which is Avenge's dead wife
and kill all human beings. And he's all out of bubblegum. And he's
all out of bubblegum. He's all out of a son as well, who's
try and who tries to literally serves his son um. But he recruits two
humans to this cause. One of them is Hector, who is interesting has
his own interesting relationships as the series goes on. The other is Isaac,
who is this what I'm crazy care. He's like this necromancer, but he's
also a devout Sufi Muslim and like, I don't know why I said Muslim
like that, like it's a Muslim. Oh, no, it's it's muslims.
No, no, it is is it really the saying Okay, you
know it's that Muslim. It's all right, well, okay, so I
am it's a it's a smooth oo. So I am saying so i'd say
correctly. Then. Um. The other thing, too, is like it's
heavily revealed that he's been like a really hard life, largest grown by the
fact that he's homosexual, which has been a huge issue at that time.
He's this immensely interesting, complex character who, when we meets Dracula, is
totally incompletely of this idea that he is nothing more than a tool to be
used by a higher power. Whether that higher power is God or Dracula,
it doesn't matter to him at all. And in a weird twist of fate,
the series Big Bad Villain um Dracula literally yeah, I know right,
it actually turns out the real villain that existentialism all along, but literally over
the also the sun, also the sun from the over the course of this
series, though you watch as Dracula treats Isaac, a person who has,
up to this point in his own backstory, into his own admission as a
character, has never been treated like an equal, never been treated like he
matters. Is being treated like he matters by someone who wants to exterminate the
whole human race. Um. It's weird that the crown Prince of Darkness who
has all this cosy powers like you're my equal, um. And it winds
up culminating in this weird moment where Isaac goes to do the classic best friend
I'm gonna self sacrifice my sof for you, and Dracula hurls him through a
portal to save him, rather than have him say Dracula and I need you
to rewind and talk about it. It must to wipe that all of humanity.
Though he does. Um, he they kill his wife and he does
that make like the relationship like sweet more fun. It's it makes it interesting
because I forget when you did um, Mary kiss kill which one was stolid?
Here's Mary, I marry everybody? No um so Isaacum. Isaac doesn't
care about humans in his mind. He's like humanities trash. What do I
care if I die, I don't care. I'll help you wipe them all
out. And over the course of the series, it's crazy right again number
one, because here's what should I call somebody? Yeah? Should Over the
course of the show, what winds up happening is you watch Isaac sort of
internalize what Dracula was really trying to say to him, because this is something
that we taught. They talked about in the show a lot. Dracula,
I don't think actually really does want to kill anybody. Um they murder him
in the end, and his son, but I think he is more than
all bite. He's quite a lot he is. He is a lot of
bite. But one of the characters sums it up really nicely. He goes,
this isn't actually an invasion plan. This is history's most dramatic suicide note
about Dracula. And you realize that all the stuff that Dracula has been trying
to teach Isaac has been trying to get him to realize that he's worth more
than the some of the things that's happened to him in the past. And
then over the remaining seasons, even after Dracula dies, the impact that our
friendship has on I as a character results in this person who is so fundamentally
different than when he started. It's a crazy ride to watch the growth of
one person from the end of this series to the from the beginning of the
series to the end of the series. I don't, I can't. I
just I know I sound like I sound like person, but like it literally
is I too? But it literally is one of the most intriguing relationships I've
ever seen in this series to watch someone who's really a friendship that really only
lasts one season and then some snippets of flashbacks as the time goes on.
So what is the core for you? What about this makes this number one?
What about this pizza? The core is watching? Is? So when
we think of really good relationships, right, um, the core of a
good relationship, I think is how does that person help you become who you're
supposed to be or who you'd like to be? UM, whether that's by
challenging you in a meaningful way, by providing you with comfort, love,
support. The things of a good friendship should um whether or you know,
mutual guidance, mutual respect, un understanding. Right, I think the best
relationships in our lives are the personal professional push us to be either who we're
supposed to be or who we want to be. Right maybe we're not that
person right now, but maybe, like you know, forever, I can
see myself being that person. And I think back on the relationships in my
life that have been very really positive. It's those are the relationships that I
look back and I'm like, wow, that person really helped me be the
Kyle I am today. Isaac at the end of that series is an impossibility
without meeting Dracula at the beginning of it um and which again, it's this
is the craziest Again I sound like an absolute crazy person, but it truly
is the weirdest thing to watch. Megomaniacal, suicidal, vampire overlord, basically
someone to live, laugh, love, It's great, it's it's it's nutty
to think about. But who's your Dracula? Who's the Dracula in your life?
Who is the Dracula in my life that is also a mass murdering dictator?
You know what is? In fact? Uh? Me and Paul Pott
now, yeah, and I love you. It's a holiday and Pambodia Okay,
show has gone so fun off the road. I think we've all learned
something today. Uh, you know, thank you for tuning in to our
lives where we say, I mean, are you talking about that's about Dracula.
I love Dragulin. Well, I just I just think a great friendship
is one that pushes you to be the person you're supposed to be. And
that's that the core of it all. Right now, you can do your
thing. I'm sorry. Uh. If you want to find out more about
the multiple psychoses all roaming around in Kyle's head, you can go to destin
dorks dot org, where there is a series of role playing games all about
delving in to which horrible toxic cartoon madman you love? Find your own?
Find your own, your own find This is the title of the episode.
This is I'm gonna realize then own Dracula. Uh. This worked out so
much better than I wanted to do. That's incredible. Oh man, UM,
I guess we should do some plugging. UM so important things. Uh
IPR is still carrying after range. Go get you off a copy. Um
as of right now, I forget to tell you. By the way,
this is a huge ray of sunshine moment for us, not dracular, our
online storefront is officially UM in its beta stages, and it should be going
live by the beginning of I'm sorry, end of next week, I say
just about basically, so Riley is working out the kinks. But if you're
interested, I'm picking up a paper copy of UM. If you're within or
a physical copy of Becoming Banana Bread can actually order them on dork Start orger.
You'll be able to order them right around the end of next week.
Ish. UM. It's been something that we've been really hard at work out.
I know I've been saying that for like the last couple of videos,
but I have seen the online storefront. Riley did a phenomenal job with it.
You can even order our You can even buy our PDFs directly from us
now, which is super cool, amazing. If you still want to go
support h doo Drift RPG you absolutely can. I get it. If those
are your established totore fronts, you'll like to have it all in one place.
They're still there. We did not take them down. We don't want
to take them down because we on the you know PDF to at least Bloomark
immediate for everybody. But our online storefront is basically almost ready to go.
And then one last thing. The first round of shipping for Fear Within has
officially started a right, so people have already started to get it. Graham
got his copy. It's beautiful. Thanks Graham, sit right up there with
After the Rain and my hack of After the Rain Before the Rain, which
is felled differently beautiful. Um. Yeah, so if you're interested in any
of those things, you can absolutely do that. But yeah, that's It's
been a pretty big week so far in terms of desks and dork stuff.
If you've I caught your copy of Fear With then yet, don't worry.
It means that we're still working on it. So but everything has been packed
sealed and is not left the desk. He's still under their putting things into
envelopes. Yeah, that's it. So all right. Um, great,
anything you want to plug before I give you our weird question? Um,
well, there are some exciting games coming out. I am excited to go
to gen Con and talk about imagining games. Um. You know, if
you want to vote for us the ENnies, you should ye. What defines
the ENnies as kind of the one RPG award that um really drive a lot
of this subculture. Everyone tends to vote for the Call of Cthulhu. There's
kind of a way. People call it the kll Cthulho Awards. But if
you go and you vote for people you like, you know, one small
game, it's gonna matter a lot because they have two different rounds. So
you know, vote for us if you like it. Yeah, you know,
yeah, we're there. Um, yeah, that's good. That's a
good plug as well. Um, and thank you to the nnies. If
anyone from the ENNIS is listening for the nomination, it's cool to be like,
I'm an Any nominated author. Thanks any It's weird. It's weird.
It's that weird. Does it feel weird to say for you? Yes,
this is your second time around, right, Well, you know you're a
two time ANY nominated author. I guess you're in Any winning author as well.
I guess yeah. I was gonna send mister just a big shot over
there, like you know. Um, okay, are you ready for your
weird question? Um? Is it gonna get more weird? Yeah? Why
not? Okay, I don't know if you can. I don't know if
you can talk with guy. I don't think I can gonna be like a
nice come down, So Um. So here's the thing. Um, I
know, I want to be like, what's your favorite evil overlord? Yeah,
you should know what what evil overlord would you like to go on a
date with? That's great? There you go, there you go. That's
the appropriate. Thank you for leaning in. You're welcome. What evil overlord?
What I want to go to date with? Um? You know,
I think Ursula? Ursula is mcgau her. Her design is very much based
on divine. Um. I love um John Waters movies, UM, and
Uh. Villain songs are I think are really definitive of kind of this this
um this kind of character. And Poor Unfortunate Souls is a banger. I
arguably the best villain song of all time. Like we already talked about Maleficent,
but she doesn't have a hero a villain song, so like that's a
mark against her. And Poor Unfortunate Souls is definitely a song that I've sung
at karaoke and I am a big fan. So I'm gonna go Ursela.
I you know what, I Uh, it's interesting that you've mentioned that I'm
going Maleficent. Dude, I want a gay icon. Maleficents just incredible.
We love, we love like this listen. Have you seen the live action
movies? No, I have. I've seen them, both of them.
Is that where the gay icon Maleficent thing comes from? She has born and
she's mean, Like, you can't really explain gay icons like you know you
have like Dorothy and Maleficent. Like I say, I'm the wrong person as
I think. I think gay icons come down to being over the top of
melodramatic. But then also, um, like given a finger to the establishment.
Yeah, and the seeing of Maleficent walking in to the court and being
like you didn't invite me to the Yeah, I think it's like it brought
the gay community running. It was like, yes, okay, you're our
queen. I was gonna say, I would need to ask somebody who is
from that community, because I am decidedly not. The first live action movie
is better than I thought it was gonna be. So that's my that's my
my review, all right, and that that is it. Um. Thank
you also much for listening. Thank you all for being here, Graham,
thanks for letting me hang out with you, buddy. This has been Batman.
Thank you all so much for listening to Desk and Dirks. By the
way, one more thing, that I'm gonna mention. So a lot of
our longer form videos have We've got some good watch time on them, but
I want to increase it. So here's what we're gonna do. Starting with
the next Not Monday video, because Riley is doing his last review from the
channel for a little bit um as he kind of takes a step back and
resituated with his his real non desks and doorks life. But starting with the
Tuesday Cheerlist video, there's gonna be a weird phrase that I'm going to utter.
And if you are able to identify the weird phrase in the comments of
that video, No, I'm not going to tell you where in the video
it is. You can just be like, yo, this is it in
the comments and the first comment I see with it will get some sort of
prize from us, probably probably PDFs of our games. But that's it.
That's my I believe the phrase is Dracula did nothing wrong. Dracula did nothing
wrong. What do I get? One crisp fist bump? Yeah, all
right with that, folks, Desks, dirks, I'm Kyle Ott for Dusted
Dork's that's Graham Dance. I was gonna I was cueing him to be like,
hey, what's up. But anyway, zipperty zap zou stay bogging my friends