WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.040 --> 00:00:21.359 M h. The paper reports that two of the male constitutes to give him 2 00:00:21.359 --> 00:00:54.200 a White Night two of the White House last year. You want answers? 3 00:00:54.359 --> 00:00:58.439 I think I'm entitled. You want answers? What the truth? You can't 4 00:00:58.479 --> 00:01:03.920 handle the truth? Pretty is? Everyone? Welcome to the Nick Bryant Podcast 5 00:01:03.480 --> 00:01:11.239 Today. My guest is Jay Dyer and he wrote two books called Esoteric Hollywood 6 00:01:11.280 --> 00:01:17.120 and also Esoteric Hollywood Too, which I found to be very edifyed like no 7 00:01:17.200 --> 00:01:22.280 other book before it. His works delve deep into the dark, mysterious undertones 8 00:01:22.680 --> 00:01:29.239 hidden in Tinseltown. After years of scholarly research, Jay Dyer has compiled his 9 00:01:29.400 --> 00:01:34.359 most read essays combining philosophy compared to religion, symbolism, geopolitics, and all 10 00:01:34.439 --> 00:01:40.400 kinds of other dark subject matter. Readers will watch movies with new eyes, 11 00:01:40.640 --> 00:01:46.640 able to decipher on their own as the secret medians of cinema are unveiled. 12 00:01:47.799 --> 00:01:51.120 Jay, how you doing today? I'm doing good? Thank you, Nick. 13 00:01:51.159 --> 00:01:53.879 I know we've been talking for a long time about doing a podcast and 14 00:01:53.120 --> 00:01:57.159 we finally got around to doing it, and I want to have you come 15 00:01:57.200 --> 00:02:00.760 on my channel as well and discuss some of your work. I'll be more 16 00:02:00.760 --> 00:02:06.840 than happy to so you get into a lot of esoteric stuff. I read 17 00:02:07.560 --> 00:02:14.280 esoteric Hollywood too, but you get into a lot of esoteric stuff in your 18 00:02:14.400 --> 00:02:20.840 riding, I think, where you really go below the surface to show an 19 00:02:21.000 --> 00:02:24.560 esoteric occult side. But with these two movies, there are kind of no 20 00:02:24.639 --> 00:02:31.400 brainers as far as the occult side. And you can talk about them in 21 00:02:31.439 --> 00:02:38.240 your esoteric Hollywood too, you say, littered with Masonic and al chemical enter 22 00:02:38.520 --> 00:02:43.080 imagery. The Ninth Gate is a film about a cult initiation as much as 23 00:02:43.120 --> 00:02:49.039 I argued Kubrick's Eyes Wide Shut is. So let's talk about The Ninth Gate 24 00:02:49.159 --> 00:02:53.879 and Eyes Wide Shut. Yeah, those are good two pairs. They go 25 00:02:53.960 --> 00:03:00.199 together. They're very close in terms of timeline when they came out in a 26 00:03:00.240 --> 00:03:02.680 few years of one another. There's a lot of similar scenes going on. 27 00:03:02.919 --> 00:03:09.479 So you know, I don't know what type of relationship Kubrick or Roman Polanski 28 00:03:09.560 --> 00:03:13.800 had if they if they knew each other very well, but both scenes, 29 00:03:13.919 --> 00:03:16.960 you know, both films have the themes of sort of a cult initiation, 30 00:03:17.199 --> 00:03:23.120 Satanic groups running and things in the background reaching to very high levels of nobility, 31 00:03:23.360 --> 00:03:30.439 and and you know European dynasties and you know these sort of quests that 32 00:03:30.479 --> 00:03:34.080 the protagonist is on to figure out what's really going on, Who's running this 33 00:03:34.120 --> 00:03:39.759 stuff, What's what's a true Satanic initiation or a true Satanic philosophy? I 34 00:03:39.840 --> 00:03:44.479 think. But but of course they diverge in very distinct ways as well. 35 00:03:44.520 --> 00:03:47.759 They're very different films and other respects. But yeah, I think you probably 36 00:03:47.800 --> 00:03:53.439 couldn't think. I couldn't think of two better examples of you know, accult 37 00:03:53.560 --> 00:03:58.879 Hollywood films other than Ninthgate and I wad Shot. So in the first book, 38 00:03:58.879 --> 00:04:01.879 I devoted think about one hundred and eighty ninety hundred pages to Kubrick, 39 00:04:02.039 --> 00:04:08.199 and I think the first significant essay as the Eyes Wideshut essay. I put 40 00:04:08.240 --> 00:04:12.599 a lot of time and effort into studying that film, particularly about eight or 41 00:04:12.680 --> 00:04:16.680 nine years ago, because I was in college and taking film classes. We 42 00:04:16.759 --> 00:04:21.720 had a class on Oliver Stone. That's actually what kind of introduced me to 43 00:04:23.040 --> 00:04:29.399 a lot of trying day books. I ended up coming across the Senator Forces 44 00:04:29.439 --> 00:04:31.319 trilogy. I read the whole trilogy, and that kind of piqued my interest, 45 00:04:31.680 --> 00:04:38.000 as well as other books i'd read on the connections between Hollywood cults and 46 00:04:38.040 --> 00:04:42.639 intelligence agencies, and there hadn't been a whole lot of mainline literature at that 47 00:04:42.720 --> 00:04:47.759 time. You could really only find a few academics like Tricia Jenkins and Donald 48 00:04:47.879 --> 00:04:50.879 I forget the guy's name, but there's a book called Operation Hollywood, and 49 00:04:51.199 --> 00:04:56.759 those really kind of just scratched the surface when it comes to the Pentagon and 50 00:04:56.759 --> 00:05:01.720 the CIA having kind of liaison offices to Salt on various film projects. But 51 00:05:01.759 --> 00:05:04.759 I really wanted to go deeper into you know, well, it seems like 52 00:05:05.040 --> 00:05:10.839 quite a few of these actors have pretty consistent intelligence connections. Seems like some 53 00:05:10.959 --> 00:05:16.160 famous people in Hollywood have even been spies at a high level, a listers. 54 00:05:16.199 --> 00:05:20.160 Even so, the more that I dove into it, you just it 55 00:05:20.199 --> 00:05:25.879 turns out there's a whole rabbit hole of information about the connection between these realms. 56 00:05:25.920 --> 00:05:30.240 And I think certain movies also are really windows into that world as well. 57 00:05:30.240 --> 00:05:34.279 And these two, these two films are great examples. It's so interesting. 58 00:05:34.360 --> 00:05:42.879 Oliver Stone's kid, Sean Stone, made a documentary about the propaganda that 59 00:05:42.920 --> 00:05:46.680 Hollywood kicks out about the medical industrial complex, and I was interviewed in that 60 00:05:47.560 --> 00:05:54.240 series. Actually it was true documentaries, and I thought it was very elucidating. 61 00:05:55.160 --> 00:06:00.439 So with Kubrick. He's born in the Bronx, does all right as 62 00:06:00.480 --> 00:06:04.199 a photographer, starts to do really well as a director, and he goes 63 00:06:04.240 --> 00:06:15.759 to the UK and kind of lives almost he's very insulated, and I've always 64 00:06:15.759 --> 00:06:21.199 wondered about that. And then he comes out with eyes wide shut. And 65 00:06:21.240 --> 00:06:25.279 what's really interesting about that. The first time I saw it, it was 66 00:06:25.319 --> 00:06:28.959 before I got into the Franklin scandal and all the other crazy stuff that I 67 00:06:28.959 --> 00:06:34.120 write about, and it didn't I just it wouldn't have gotten more than thirty 68 00:06:34.120 --> 00:06:39.480 five or forty on the Tomato meter for me Ron Tomato. But after I 69 00:06:39.519 --> 00:06:45.879 got into Franklin and this other stuff, I went, Wow, he is 70 00:06:46.040 --> 00:06:51.000 capturing a reality that no one has yet captured in the way that he has 71 00:06:51.079 --> 00:06:55.439 captured it. Yeah, I think you're right. I think you know. 72 00:06:55.480 --> 00:07:00.920 I remember hearing about your work many years ago when I heard about other texts 73 00:07:00.959 --> 00:07:05.639 that books that just that discussed similar types of you know, really grewsome subject 74 00:07:05.720 --> 00:07:09.439 matter. And I think in the last maybe even eight years, as more 75 00:07:09.480 --> 00:07:14.399 and more of these types of things came out with Epstein or with Savile in 76 00:07:14.439 --> 00:07:17.759 the UK, we started to see this pattern that you know, this isn't 77 00:07:17.800 --> 00:07:23.639 really conspiracy theory. This is a lot of fact, and it's an unfortunate, 78 00:07:24.240 --> 00:07:27.800 you know way that government's work, which is to utilize compromise and to 79 00:07:27.839 --> 00:07:31.639 be involved in these kinds of high level uh you know, escapades and parties 80 00:07:31.720 --> 00:07:35.600 and whatnot and filming it and all of that. And then so it would 81 00:07:35.639 --> 00:07:41.040 just it just seemed logical to me that if Kubrick has made for example, 82 00:07:41.240 --> 00:07:46.279 underage stuff and compromise, it's actually made that a theme in many of his 83 00:07:46.399 --> 00:07:49.839 films, right going back to Lolita, going back to Barry Lyndon, It 84 00:07:49.959 --> 00:07:54.839 just seemed logical to me that when we dissect something like Eyes White Shot, 85 00:07:54.879 --> 00:07:57.439 we're going to notice the same types of patterns. We're going to see, 86 00:07:57.800 --> 00:08:01.560 you know, the the shop, the costume shop owner. Right, He's 87 00:08:01.600 --> 00:08:07.560 got lely Sobieski there playing the role of this underage girl who seems to kind 88 00:08:07.560 --> 00:08:11.600 of know what's going on in this operation because she's the one that of course 89 00:08:11.680 --> 00:08:18.360 tells Bill Harford to wear an ermine cloak, which signifies nobility to roll to 90 00:08:18.399 --> 00:08:24.360 the upper class in the traditional European ideas, So so she knows what's going 91 00:08:24.399 --> 00:08:28.959 on. We see this with her character as just one example, and yeah, 92 00:08:28.720 --> 00:08:33.720 I think that that's again why it's emblematic of you know, Kubert was 93 00:08:33.799 --> 00:08:35.720 kind of like you said, he he may have been exposed to some of 94 00:08:35.759 --> 00:08:39.440 this upper class stuff so to speak, when he was in the UK, 95 00:08:41.600 --> 00:08:43.840 and then he puts it into this film. People at the time thought the 96 00:08:43.879 --> 00:08:46.600 film was kind of crazy. I remember at the time when it came out, 97 00:08:46.639 --> 00:08:50.480 I was I've always been a film buff, so I remember reading reviews 98 00:08:50.519 --> 00:08:52.600 and it was it was lampooned, and it was just like, this is 99 00:08:52.759 --> 00:08:56.320 is boring, it doesn't make sense, it's irrelevant. But as time has 100 00:08:56.320 --> 00:09:00.960 gone by, I think he's been vindicated that it does make sense. I 101 00:09:01.039 --> 00:09:03.360 agree with that one hundred percent. More and more people that I've talked to 102 00:09:03.639 --> 00:09:13.120 understand eyes wide shut as the occult and various initiation rights are kind of starting 103 00:09:13.159 --> 00:09:22.639 to just merge with the mainstream, or basically on the verge of merging with 104 00:09:22.840 --> 00:09:28.240 the with the mainstream. And then you got into They Live, which is 105 00:09:28.279 --> 00:09:33.480 a very interesting movie and I've always liked it. It's about a guy who 106 00:09:33.240 --> 00:09:39.960 sees reality when he's living in the matrix. Basically, extraterrestrials have taken over 107 00:09:41.000 --> 00:09:46.559 the world, and then they've made everybody Stepford husbands and Stepford wives and Stepford 108 00:09:46.679 --> 00:09:52.480 kids. But this one guy can see it, and you say, of 109 00:09:52.600 --> 00:09:58.519 they live amazingly. Carpenter's film even reveals the core sign up of Hollywoodism that 110 00:09:58.559 --> 00:10:03.960 the narses sistic indulgence of fame and the camera lens can bring fulfillment, probably 111 00:10:05.000 --> 00:10:09.919 demonstrated in the television scene with the woman describing her fantasy of being famous and 112 00:10:09.960 --> 00:10:18.120 thereby attaining meeting in her life. Yeah, I think Carpenter is interesting. 113 00:10:18.200 --> 00:10:22.399 I've always liked John Carpenter's movies. I think the film is an allegory. 114 00:10:24.000 --> 00:10:26.480 I don't as far as I know, Carpenter doesn't believe in any sort of 115 00:10:26.559 --> 00:10:31.879 supernatural or any kind of alien to existence. So I think he's using the 116 00:10:31.960 --> 00:10:37.399 imagery of the alien as kind of a symbolic, allegorical description of the ruling 117 00:10:37.440 --> 00:10:41.000 class and the tendency that they have to undermine us in ways that we wouldn't 118 00:10:41.000 --> 00:10:46.679 expect, even to the point of perhaps even utilizing signals and signals intelligence and 119 00:10:46.759 --> 00:10:52.240 EMFVLF stuff that we don't even know about, probably in the mainstream at a 120 00:10:52.320 --> 00:10:56.159 very high level. And I think there's some truth to that. I'm not 121 00:10:56.159 --> 00:10:58.679 trying to go full crazy person, but I mean there are you know, 122 00:11:00.320 --> 00:11:07.039 military studies research into that kind of stuff. So I think probably Carbenter had 123 00:11:07.080 --> 00:11:11.200 heard of that kind of of a of a weapon that existed or that weaponization 124 00:11:11.399 --> 00:11:16.639 going on, and then he expands it into the consumer culture into uh two, 125 00:11:16.720 --> 00:11:22.559 mass media. And so I've always appreciated directors and writers that use the 126 00:11:22.600 --> 00:11:26.240 medium that they that they use as a means to critique that very medium. 127 00:11:26.320 --> 00:11:31.799 Right, So you know, when we talk about the military industrial complex or 128 00:11:31.799 --> 00:11:37.679 Hollywood being connected to the CIA, excuse me, CIA ME, and mild 129 00:11:37.919 --> 00:11:41.360 complex being connected to Hollywood and music, even what we start to see is 130 00:11:41.360 --> 00:11:46.679 that it's for a reason. It's not it's not just trying to make a 131 00:11:46.759 --> 00:11:50.480 quick book. It's actually a huge part of social engineering. So like at 132 00:11:50.519 --> 00:11:54.399 the beginning of the second book, I cited the National Security Cinema book where 133 00:11:54.399 --> 00:12:01.519 they talked about thousands of declassified hundreds of pages of doc documents that were declassified, 134 00:12:01.559 --> 00:12:07.440 discussing tons and tons of TV shows, hundreds of examples and movies where 135 00:12:07.519 --> 00:12:11.919 you know, the Pentagon, the deep State had had specific messages placed into 136 00:12:11.960 --> 00:12:16.840 those films. So even things as innocuous those Cupcake Wars or Hawaii five. 137 00:12:16.919 --> 00:12:20.279 Oh. I mean, it goes way back. You've got the messaging going 138 00:12:20.360 --> 00:12:26.440 on for the purpose of defending the overall superstructure of the regime. And I 139 00:12:26.480 --> 00:12:31.240 can think even when I was a kid, my dad was in the Navy, 140 00:12:31.279 --> 00:12:33.320 and I remember all the Navy movies that came out in the nineteen eighties, 141 00:12:35.200 --> 00:12:37.960 Top Gun, you know, and there was Navy Seals with Charlie Sheen, 142 00:12:39.000 --> 00:12:43.039 and there's all this Navy propaganda, military Propagain, that was because Reagan 143 00:12:43.080 --> 00:12:48.919 really at that time wanted to beef up America's defenses and the national security state, 144 00:12:50.000 --> 00:12:52.240 right, and he did that on purpose. And there was a lot 145 00:12:52.240 --> 00:12:56.360 of tie in with the Pentagon at that time, between Hollywood and Pentagon at 146 00:12:56.360 --> 00:13:01.799 that time on purpose. So even though we typically think of Hollywood as leftists, 147 00:13:01.840 --> 00:13:05.759 there can also be these phases where there's a lot of militarization military propaganda 148 00:13:05.799 --> 00:13:11.679 as well. And that was kind of an overturning of the previous era of 149 00:13:11.759 --> 00:13:16.799 a lot of you know, Oliver Stone's style films or war films critiquing Vietnam 150 00:13:16.919 --> 00:13:20.000 and war films critiquing you know, apocalypse. Now these kinds of films. 151 00:13:20.480 --> 00:13:24.960 Then you get a shift over to the sort of Reagan Neo Connish era of 152 00:13:24.960 --> 00:13:28.840 Hollywood in the nineteen eighties. And so in other words, these are examples 153 00:13:28.879 --> 00:13:33.399 of what you're talking about with with They Live. That are it's being parodied 154 00:13:33.399 --> 00:13:37.879 in the movie, but these are hard, hardcore, real life examples of 155 00:13:37.879 --> 00:13:41.240 what's in the film. Well, you have a number of examples and They 156 00:13:41.279 --> 00:13:50.440 Live. Now propaganda just permeates everything, and you bring in Everard Bates and 157 00:13:50.559 --> 00:13:54.840 the tactics that he used. Edward Barnees was the nephew of Sigmund Freud, 158 00:13:54.320 --> 00:14:01.320 and actually Sigmund wasn't doing so good, but Edward Burnees Readnicle Sigmund's books and 159 00:14:01.360 --> 00:14:05.000 he thought, you know, I think I could do something with these books. 160 00:14:05.039 --> 00:14:09.960 And he's considered to be one of the founders of modern pr and actually 161 00:14:11.000 --> 00:14:16.480 the United States hired him when we fomented a coup in Guatemala. We wanted 162 00:14:16.519 --> 00:14:22.000 some good PR on that, and so Edward Brene's came to the rescue. 163 00:14:22.600 --> 00:14:28.279 And then you will also get into Michael Lachino, and he was a he 164 00:14:28.440 --> 00:14:33.840 was an American intelligence He was a Satanist and he wrote a book from ssiop 165 00:14:35.000 --> 00:14:43.639 to Mind War, and that book is about not necessarily doing a siop on 166 00:14:43.720 --> 00:14:50.519 your enemy, your enemy's populist. It's about doing a siop on your own 167 00:14:50.559 --> 00:14:54.759 populace so you can make them all believe in war. I mean, And 168 00:14:56.000 --> 00:15:03.120 I just found that pretty fascinating that you would stick Yeah, I forgot in 169 00:15:03.159 --> 00:15:05.440 that essay. You're right, I did stick that in there because it was 170 00:15:05.480 --> 00:15:13.000 a great example of the what what Carpenter's lampooning or satirizing. But it's also, 171 00:15:13.039 --> 00:15:16.639 like you're pointing out, very serious because you know in that essay, 172 00:15:16.840 --> 00:15:20.399 towards the end of it, in the footnotes, uh A Keno and his 173 00:15:20.519 --> 00:15:24.639 co author talk about signals into I mean, like using EM E, M 174 00:15:24.759 --> 00:15:30.559 F E, L F BLF signals to actually alter people's body frequencies. So 175 00:15:30.639 --> 00:15:33.080 this is actually a real thing. I don't know if John Carpenter knew about 176 00:15:33.120 --> 00:15:35.799 that. I just found it interesting that, you know, the film is 177 00:15:35.799 --> 00:15:41.200 about UH signals and what not, TV signals and satellite signals and all of 178 00:15:41.240 --> 00:15:46.279 that, and and how that brainwashes us, and that the h the a 179 00:15:46.360 --> 00:15:52.759 keynote paper, UH just kind of a sort of stating the the Army's doctrine 180 00:15:52.879 --> 00:15:58.639 of psychological warfare at the time and how it would need it needed to transition 181 00:15:58.759 --> 00:16:04.759 over into a lot more what they call in their white papers. There's a 182 00:16:04.879 --> 00:16:08.240 NATO document that came out that we covered, I think a couple of years 183 00:16:08.240 --> 00:16:12.360 ago. In the NATO document on cy war basically said the same thing. 184 00:16:12.440 --> 00:16:18.240 It said, it's time to go beyond thinking about changing people's minds and rather 185 00:16:18.320 --> 00:16:23.960 thinking about changing their actual brains. So the biological chemistry itself needs to alter. 186 00:16:25.600 --> 00:16:32.679 And that included everything from the same types of elf elf stuff to microchips, 187 00:16:32.720 --> 00:16:37.360 et cetera. So yeah, so it's becoming a lot more explicit in 188 00:16:37.440 --> 00:16:40.559 the white papers and the documents as to what they're really referring to. And 189 00:16:40.639 --> 00:16:44.000 I just think that, you know, fiction always has this amazing almost quasi 190 00:16:44.039 --> 00:16:48.879 prophetic element where fiction will, whether it's books or movies, a lot of 191 00:16:48.879 --> 00:16:52.159 times kind of predict the future in a way. I mean, I don't 192 00:16:52.240 --> 00:16:53.879 literally think the predicting the future. I think that, you know, if 193 00:16:53.879 --> 00:16:56.919 you think of somebody like Philip K. Dick, you know, he was 194 00:16:56.960 --> 00:17:00.159 hanging out with a lot of people from Silicon Valley at the time, and 195 00:17:00.600 --> 00:17:03.720 he kind of knew what they wanted to do, and so he would put, 196 00:17:03.960 --> 00:17:07.400 you know, in his fiction what they planned to do, and so 197 00:17:07.480 --> 00:17:11.279 you get this dystopian fiction as a result. And then in that way, 198 00:17:11.359 --> 00:17:15.680 you know, I think fish could be kind of prophetic. I was amazed 199 00:17:15.880 --> 00:17:22.880 that the media and the government sold the Iraq War to eighty percent of Americans 200 00:17:22.200 --> 00:17:29.079 because it was obviously predicated on lies, and those lines were being told almost 201 00:17:29.359 --> 00:17:33.000 they were being exposed almost in real time on the Internet. But yet eighty 202 00:17:33.039 --> 00:17:40.839 percent of Americans wanted thought that Saddam Hussein was connected del Kaida and not various 203 00:17:40.839 --> 00:17:47.480 things. And you talk about and they live that the Pentagon hired pr firm 204 00:17:47.720 --> 00:17:56.960 Bell Pottinger and gave them five hundred and forty million dollars to show what amenace 205 00:17:56.279 --> 00:18:03.400 ISIS was to America. Yeah, a lot of these groups we find out 206 00:18:03.480 --> 00:18:07.440 have been I mean, there's a degree to which the groups are real. 207 00:18:07.559 --> 00:18:11.119 They get funding. Of course, ISIS is sort of the continuation of al 208 00:18:11.200 --> 00:18:17.039 Qaeda and the Mujahideen and so forth. But you know that's in the nineteen 209 00:18:17.079 --> 00:18:19.480 eighties. You know, they were at the White House with Reagan. You 210 00:18:19.519 --> 00:18:25.519 have the Mujahideen freedom fighters. They're being awarded and congratulated by Reagan. There 211 00:18:25.599 --> 00:18:30.200 was movies made at the Bond Films in the nineteen eighties with Timothy Dalton have 212 00:18:30.400 --> 00:18:33.279 him fighting alongside the Mujahadeen. They even have these sort of been lauden esque 213 00:18:33.400 --> 00:18:38.079 characters in the film. I think it's a Living Daylights, but it's one 214 00:18:38.119 --> 00:18:45.039 of the Timothy Dalton installments which Rambo as well. Rambo fights alongside the Mujahideen, 215 00:18:45.519 --> 00:18:48.119 and then of course we get in the very nineteen eighty four fashion, 216 00:18:48.200 --> 00:18:51.319 the flipping oh no, actually there are are enemies, and you know, 217 00:18:51.680 --> 00:18:56.720 we messed up and we did too much. Now now it's blowback and all 218 00:18:56.720 --> 00:19:00.599 this kind of stuff. But yeah, I think a big part of al 219 00:19:00.680 --> 00:19:04.119 Qaeda, Mujahidin and then the creation and rise of ISIS, a lot of 220 00:19:04.160 --> 00:19:08.400 it was pr A lot of it was media played a big role in that. 221 00:19:10.319 --> 00:19:14.759 I mean, obviously there was also I think funneling of aid and support 222 00:19:14.759 --> 00:19:19.440 from Turkey to ISIS throughout the particularly during the attempt to overthrow a SOD. 223 00:19:19.640 --> 00:19:25.240 We saw a lot of Western support for that that failed. But regardless, 224 00:19:25.319 --> 00:19:26.799 you know, it's kind of the same game pattern I think we see with 225 00:19:27.759 --> 00:19:32.079 the CIA funding and aiding and supporting rebels. In fact, I went and 226 00:19:32.119 --> 00:19:36.319 read. One of the talks I did a couple of years ago was Miles 227 00:19:36.359 --> 00:19:40.759 Copeland's book Game of Nations, And in that book, Copeland talks about being 228 00:19:40.880 --> 00:19:44.960 in Egypt and in Syria and basically saying, of course we do false flags. 229 00:19:44.960 --> 00:19:48.680 Of course we fund radical Islamic groups. Like did you think we didn't, 230 00:19:48.839 --> 00:19:53.640 he says, He says, this is one of our greatest tools is 231 00:19:53.680 --> 00:19:59.519 to utilize the Islamic radical for our purposes. There's a old chapter on it, 232 00:19:59.599 --> 00:20:03.119 so yeah, it's pretty prevalent in the literature. So yeah, but 233 00:20:03.160 --> 00:20:07.119 I'd forgotten about that specific amount of money. But that's that's wild. It's 234 00:20:07.160 --> 00:20:11.799 so half a billion dollars. They're really just to help create the image of 235 00:20:11.839 --> 00:20:21.799 ISIS. But and then and then the threats also become the justification for the 236 00:20:21.839 --> 00:20:25.319 salvation that the system offers. So then when they get rid of bin Lot, 237 00:20:25.400 --> 00:20:27.920 and oh we'll see Obama's a hero. He got rid of bin Lad 238 00:20:27.920 --> 00:20:33.200 and they dumped the body at sea, and it's all nonsense in my view. 239 00:20:33.240 --> 00:20:34.759 And even say Hirsh writes a big thing talking about how it was all 240 00:20:36.000 --> 00:20:40.799 seemingly fake and made up. So anyway, long story short, back to 241 00:20:40.920 --> 00:20:42.880 Hollywood and Bernees and all that. Yeah. I remember at the time when 242 00:20:42.920 --> 00:20:48.480 I wrote the second Hollywood book, I wasn't I'd read Bernees and I'd read 243 00:20:48.680 --> 00:20:53.240 Propaganda, but I hadn't gone into Walter Lippmann, hadn't gone deep into the 244 00:20:53.400 --> 00:20:57.559 Tavistock. I'd read Estlin's book from Trying Day. But then I went and 245 00:20:57.599 --> 00:21:03.519 read doctor John Coleman's book on Tavistock was actually really good, and he goes 246 00:21:03.519 --> 00:21:08.599 into the history of how the same Reese Report style of propaganda that they used 247 00:21:08.640 --> 00:21:15.680 against the Kaiser to get World War One, going that the predecessor to uh 248 00:21:17.680 --> 00:21:22.200 this Tavistock was the I forget the name of it, but it's something starts 249 00:21:22.200 --> 00:21:25.880 with a W. But it's like it was the Ministry of Warfare that the 250 00:21:25.880 --> 00:21:30.880 Brits used to start World War One and say that the Kaiser what they called 251 00:21:30.920 --> 00:21:37.359 him, the Butcher, They used the same propaganda calling Saddam the butcher Bagnun 252 00:21:37.519 --> 00:21:41.920 because like they literally just mirrored one hundred year old propaganda from Tavistock or the 253 00:21:41.960 --> 00:21:45.920 predecessor to Tavistock. And that's why as you're pointing out y' all these guys 254 00:21:47.720 --> 00:21:52.240 like Brene's, like Lipmann, they're just borrowing from the techniques of both Freud 255 00:21:52.640 --> 00:21:56.880 and H. G. Wells, who was a big forefather and pioneer of 256 00:21:56.880 --> 00:22:02.279 propaganda techniques. And then you see that that gets used in film. Absolutely. 257 00:22:02.359 --> 00:22:06.160 In fact, Brene has said that the greatest medium of propaganda the world's 258 00:22:06.160 --> 00:22:12.319 ever known is Hollywood. And he even made his uncle's books in Vogue. 259 00:22:12.319 --> 00:22:15.720 Again. I mean, he was a busy guy. And actually, it's 260 00:22:15.799 --> 00:22:23.079 kind of interesting Joseph Gebels was quite fond of reading Burnet's books despite his Jewish 261 00:22:23.119 --> 00:22:30.720 lineage. Well actually and Tavistock individuals who were also Jewish were open about being 262 00:22:30.799 --> 00:22:37.279 fans of Gebels, and they appreciated the type of propaganda techniques that he was 263 00:22:37.400 --> 00:22:40.440 using as well. So there's a lot of cross pollination there in those areas. 264 00:22:41.640 --> 00:22:45.079 Gebels would be if he saw a television today, I mean, that 265 00:22:45.279 --> 00:22:48.079 would be his wet dream, which we'll get into a little bit later when 266 00:22:48.119 --> 00:22:53.319 you talk about when I talk about Poltergeist with Ghostbusters, you brought in something 267 00:22:53.400 --> 00:23:00.640 kind of interesting the government tapping into metaphysical forces, and you mentioned Stargate there 268 00:23:00.680 --> 00:23:08.039 was an mk Ultra subproject that was tapping into psychic abilities and with Stargate. 269 00:23:10.000 --> 00:23:18.039 Stargate was financed for twenty years and then Bill Clinton said it doesn't work, 270 00:23:18.519 --> 00:23:22.640 and the military said it doesn't work. So they ostensibly financed something for twenty 271 00:23:22.720 --> 00:23:27.599 years that didn't work, and now there's no more Stargate. But I believe 272 00:23:27.680 --> 00:23:36.440 that there is a stargate and it's gone black. Yeah, that's interesting because 273 00:23:36.640 --> 00:23:40.400 we just revisited this topic. I hadn't thought about this in many years, 274 00:23:40.440 --> 00:23:45.319 but I got some of my old SRI at Stargate research out the other day 275 00:23:45.359 --> 00:23:51.119 because we did a podcast covering the recent discussion of Gateway Process, which is 276 00:23:51.119 --> 00:23:56.519 another one of these declassified CAIA documents, where they were supposedly delving into a 277 00:23:56.559 --> 00:24:02.319 lot of kind of consciousness techniques and meditation technique and trying to hit to hemi 278 00:24:02.400 --> 00:24:06.880 sync which has merged both hemispheres of the brain, and see what you could 279 00:24:06.920 --> 00:24:11.799 tap into by doing this. And so the guy who ran that was part 280 00:24:11.839 --> 00:24:17.799 of this Esslin connected institute. I forget the name of the foundation that they 281 00:24:17.839 --> 00:24:19.680 were doing this research at, but it was all part of SRI as well, 282 00:24:21.960 --> 00:24:25.039 and a lot of the people at SRI involved in that project, you 283 00:24:25.079 --> 00:24:30.039 know, come up in a lot of the text that Chris has printed at 284 00:24:30.079 --> 00:24:34.039 Trying Day, and that then the Boharics and these characters so also have a 285 00:24:34.039 --> 00:24:40.759 lot of interest in the occult a gnosticism and quantum physics. So it's hard 286 00:24:40.799 --> 00:24:44.680 to know what's real or not real in that whole domain of a cult and 287 00:24:44.759 --> 00:24:49.279 metaphysics and quantum physics and consciousness meditation techniques. I think there's definitely something there 288 00:24:49.319 --> 00:24:55.200 because, as you pointed out, what you get just double bind and the 289 00:24:55.240 --> 00:24:59.000 creation of the First Earth Battalion, and you know, the book that Ronson 290 00:24:59.559 --> 00:25:02.920 writes, Minister at Ghats becomes the George Clooney film. So here we get 291 00:25:02.960 --> 00:25:07.200 another crossover into Hollywood with the very stuff that we're talking about. Because although 292 00:25:07.240 --> 00:25:11.160 I don't I think I mentioned Minister at Goats, I didn't do an essay 293 00:25:11.200 --> 00:25:15.119 on it. You know, Clooney is another character, for example, who 294 00:25:15.160 --> 00:25:21.200 seems to pretty consistently have direct CIE connections, perhaps even working with the CIA, 295 00:25:21.400 --> 00:25:23.440 much like Angelina Joe Lee being a member of the Council on Foreign Relation. 296 00:25:23.640 --> 00:25:26.559 So we see it. We always see these patterns, and if you're 297 00:25:26.559 --> 00:25:32.680 remembering Minister at goats. You know, he's doing all these different techniques the 298 00:25:32.680 --> 00:25:37.160 the George Clooney character, like cloud busting with his mind and he's trying to 299 00:25:37.400 --> 00:25:41.200 he's trying to kill a goat with his mind. But what's what happens at 300 00:25:41.200 --> 00:25:45.240 the end of the movie is that if I recall there, it fast forwards 301 00:25:45.279 --> 00:25:52.200 to present day of Gulf War one and they're in Iraq and they're figuring out 302 00:25:52.359 --> 00:25:59.799 ways to hand out American DVDs and movies to push American pop culture in Iraq. 303 00:26:00.079 --> 00:26:04.319 So again the irony is that the movie becomes a sort of a testament 304 00:26:04.319 --> 00:26:08.599 to the movie itself being propaganda and kind of you know, bringing a full 305 00:26:08.599 --> 00:26:12.119 circle. But yeah, you're absolutely right to say that there's quite a few 306 00:26:12.160 --> 00:26:18.079 of these projects where the government's you know, it's not just SRI and Uri 307 00:26:18.160 --> 00:26:21.680 gell Are and remote viewing. It's it's quite a few things and probably much 308 00:26:21.720 --> 00:26:26.960 more that we don't know about. It's interesting you talked about under Poohich and 309 00:26:27.200 --> 00:26:33.960 he worked at SRI and was was part of startating and he was a notorious 310 00:26:33.000 --> 00:26:41.519 pedophile. He was he was definitely a very depraved individual and he was he 311 00:26:42.160 --> 00:26:48.319 was the guy that founded or discovered Jury Gallop and your his ability to bend 312 00:26:48.359 --> 00:26:53.319 spoons and other things. And but there are accounts of poo Haich being like 313 00:26:53.359 --> 00:26:59.400 a notorious pedophile, and I knew someone that was, well I still know 314 00:26:59.559 --> 00:27:03.720 him, don't really talk too much anymore. I said he was involved in 315 00:27:03.079 --> 00:27:11.240 stargating slright And I said, how did you guys rationalize using Andre Pouharich. 316 00:27:11.559 --> 00:27:18.440 Yeah, he's such a malignant character. And this guy said to me, 317 00:27:18.519 --> 00:27:25.279 well, we knew there was something weird about him. And with Cloney, 318 00:27:25.359 --> 00:27:29.519 it's kind of interesting. You have Confessions of a Dangerous Mind, you have 319 00:27:29.640 --> 00:27:37.119 Syriana, and then you have Michael Clayton, which really show some amazing truths, 320 00:27:37.880 --> 00:27:41.559 right, but then he does a U turn and doesn't seem to be 321 00:27:41.640 --> 00:27:45.440 making movies about stuff like that anymore. Yeah, that's a good point. 322 00:27:45.839 --> 00:27:49.720 I did like Michael Clayton. I thought that was good sort of critique and 323 00:27:49.880 --> 00:27:57.559 exposing corporate power. And then Siana, I want to say, that's based 324 00:27:57.559 --> 00:28:00.680 on a Robert Bayer book, and that would mean then that you know, 325 00:28:00.759 --> 00:28:07.160 that's kind of this supposedly critical side of the CIA, which which Bear is 326 00:28:07.240 --> 00:28:10.920 kind of a similar character where every now in he'll say is really kind of 327 00:28:11.839 --> 00:28:15.680 revealing things, and then help be back on CNN touting the you know, 328 00:28:15.880 --> 00:28:21.359 Russia runs Trump narrative, which is all nonsense in my view. But yeah, 329 00:28:21.400 --> 00:28:25.440 so it's hard to know with some of these characters, like what where 330 00:28:25.440 --> 00:28:27.640 they're come. But you know, with Clooney again, you know, you've 331 00:28:27.680 --> 00:28:32.680 got tons and tons of people who that's more speculative in his case, I 332 00:28:32.680 --> 00:28:37.519 don't think it's outlandish, but quite a few people in Hollywood have been actually 333 00:28:37.559 --> 00:28:42.960 you know, CIA assets, and I think that speaks to really the where 334 00:28:42.960 --> 00:28:47.279 I'm going to take things in the third book I'm working on, Sir Calywood. 335 00:28:47.279 --> 00:28:52.400 Three is I'm going to focus a little more on hard cases and evidences 336 00:28:52.480 --> 00:28:56.480 of people who you know, were Hollywood spies who did work with the OSS. 337 00:28:56.839 --> 00:29:00.440 When I was writing the first two books, you know, there's a 338 00:29:00.440 --> 00:29:03.039 lot of information that wasn't even out yet, and so you know a lot 339 00:29:03.039 --> 00:29:06.880 of books, biographies get written and things get declassified since you you know, 340 00:29:06.920 --> 00:29:10.240 you're writing stuff eight ten years ago, and you learn a lot more about 341 00:29:10.279 --> 00:29:12.000 it and you realize, oh, actually, you know, there's been Affleck 342 00:29:12.039 --> 00:29:15.559 in an interview saying that Hollywood and the CIA are flip sides of the same 343 00:29:15.599 --> 00:29:22.079 coin. Here's you know, information that comes out about this studio is actually 344 00:29:22.160 --> 00:29:25.799 up front for running intelligence operation. You know, all these kinds of crazy 345 00:29:25.839 --> 00:29:30.319 stories that come out, all of which are true. But yeah, I 346 00:29:30.359 --> 00:29:33.599 mean it's it's sort of like once you see it, it's like, well, 347 00:29:33.640 --> 00:29:36.200 how did I never see that? Of course, of course the CIA 348 00:29:36.359 --> 00:29:40.720 is using all these Hollywood people. Of course, you know you've got people 349 00:29:40.720 --> 00:29:44.319 like going back to Julia Child or the first TV chef, She's comes out 350 00:29:44.319 --> 00:29:47.480 of the OSS and people think, well, why would that be, Well, 351 00:29:47.480 --> 00:29:51.920 it's because it's called culture creation. So you mentioned Burne earlier. Uh 352 00:29:52.240 --> 00:29:55.880 brene is, I mean, that's that's really what a lot of these groups 353 00:29:55.960 --> 00:30:03.720 do, is they want to create, grow, and steer culture. And 354 00:30:02.680 --> 00:30:07.640 then it makes perfect sense why they would have, you know, assets in 355 00:30:07.680 --> 00:30:15.920 Hollywood. And let's jump to a clockwork Orange and the drugs. You said 356 00:30:15.960 --> 00:30:25.160 something pretty interesting that Alex he was the head drug who was on the homicidal 357 00:30:25.200 --> 00:30:30.359 side, and that you pointed out and this was a Kubrick film, and 358 00:30:30.400 --> 00:30:37.480 you pointed out that he had endured sexual abuse very early on, and ultimately 359 00:30:37.559 --> 00:30:44.720 he went through government sponsored mind control give us some insights into a clackwork orange. 360 00:30:44.799 --> 00:30:48.079 Yeah. Actually I forgot about that scene where they show Alex and his 361 00:30:48.559 --> 00:30:53.559 sort of government CPS handler agent guy showing up, and it's very clearly implies 362 00:30:53.680 --> 00:30:57.839 that there's sexual something going on there in that scene where he's standing in his 363 00:30:57.880 --> 00:31:02.279 white e tidies there with the CPS guy or whatever that guy's supposed to be. 364 00:31:03.519 --> 00:31:07.960 Yeah, this is a near future dystopio in the UK where basically we 365 00:31:07.000 --> 00:31:14.359 have these sort of street gangs running wild. You've got the parental middle class, 366 00:31:14.480 --> 00:31:18.240 upper class people. They're all sort of oblivious to what's going on that 367 00:31:18.319 --> 00:31:22.880 they really don't care. Alex's parents are totally out to lunch. They're just 368 00:31:22.920 --> 00:31:26.400 sort of mesmerized by the TV, the game shows and whatnot. And Alex 369 00:31:26.480 --> 00:31:30.759 is just sort of this one. He's just sort of a creature of pure 370 00:31:32.000 --> 00:31:37.640 inner animalistic passion. Basically, he just sort of wanders around the town sleeping 371 00:31:37.680 --> 00:31:41.359 with whoever he wants. But for some reason he has this fixation on Beethoven 372 00:31:41.119 --> 00:31:49.559 h and he's always playing Beethoven. And after a brutal rape event with him 373 00:31:49.559 --> 00:31:55.400 and his gang, he ends up and put into this program which is called 374 00:31:55.440 --> 00:32:00.400 the Ludovico method. And to me this really just smacks of again ultra. 375 00:32:00.839 --> 00:32:07.240 Its macks of reprogramming and imprinting and the actual fact a lot of the MK 376 00:32:07.319 --> 00:32:15.319 ultra experiments were done with various prisoners. So we had cases in Kentucky not 377 00:32:15.400 --> 00:32:17.880 far from me, where they were experimenting on people in prisons. We had 378 00:32:17.880 --> 00:32:24.319 people in military prisons and confinement that were experimented on. So I think there's 379 00:32:24.319 --> 00:32:28.720 some truth to this. And actually I read a book a couple of years 380 00:32:28.720 --> 00:32:32.160 ago about projects in Australia. It's something I never even heard about. Some 381 00:32:32.200 --> 00:32:39.079 guy wrote a little internet online book is a well written book about M culture 382 00:32:39.119 --> 00:32:43.960 projects that were done in Australia that hardly anybody knew about. So M culture 383 00:32:44.039 --> 00:32:47.599 actually wasn't just a US based or even a Canada based or it was actually 384 00:32:49.359 --> 00:32:52.319 particularly it seems to be places within the Queen's Commonwealth, with which I think 385 00:32:52.400 --> 00:32:59.200 is suspicious. So a lot of Canada, Australia, America and UK projects, 386 00:33:00.599 --> 00:33:04.559 but a lot of the stuff that we that you read about in what 387 00:33:04.559 --> 00:33:09.039 what appears to be uh in culture related projects in Australia also seem to match 388 00:33:09.119 --> 00:33:14.680 up very closely to Ludovico method type of stuff. But yeah, so the 389 00:33:14.759 --> 00:33:20.279 idea is, can we can we engineer out of the you know, wild 390 00:33:20.400 --> 00:33:25.200 teenage criminal, his basic animalistic nature and turn him into this sort of just 391 00:33:25.680 --> 00:33:32.000 controlled pacifist character, right, And what I like about the film, and 392 00:33:32.079 --> 00:33:37.400 I think probably the point of the book too, is that you think that 393 00:33:37.440 --> 00:33:40.559 this is done for under the auspices of, you know, reducing crime. 394 00:33:42.640 --> 00:33:47.160 But as we pointed out earlier with the methodology of a Kino, that research 395 00:33:47.200 --> 00:33:51.880 and development of that technique in that study is not just about reducing crime. 396 00:33:51.920 --> 00:33:54.480 It's about how to take those techniques and turn it on the population to make 397 00:33:54.519 --> 00:34:00.279 sure the population is docile and controllable. That's the key point here. And 398 00:34:00.000 --> 00:34:04.279 and you know, and I think Chris has the same idea. I never 399 00:34:04.359 --> 00:34:08.840 understood Vietnam until I started trying to understand it from that perspective. And if 400 00:34:08.880 --> 00:34:14.199 you read Douglas Valentine's book on Vietnam, he makes the point that really Vietnam 401 00:34:14.320 --> 00:34:20.519 wasn't even about research and development for warfare, it was about how to manage 402 00:34:20.519 --> 00:34:24.519 population and control population. And that's kind of the ending thesis because then he 403 00:34:24.599 --> 00:34:30.679 transitions over into the Bush era and how the Bush Ran Contrast stuff and the 404 00:34:30.719 --> 00:34:36.559 School of Americas and all that was the development out of the Vietnam sciops programs. 405 00:34:36.880 --> 00:34:39.440 So I think the same thing's going on here with what Burgess and and 406 00:34:39.480 --> 00:34:44.559 clukoral Orange is talking about is that these are these are these are It's an 407 00:34:44.599 --> 00:34:52.079 artistic portrayal of the techniques that are done for the excuses of reducing crime and 408 00:34:52.159 --> 00:34:58.280 helping society or whatever. But it's all just for control. What's interesting about 409 00:34:58.400 --> 00:35:07.320 Valentine's book about Vietnam the Phoenix program. We're training people, Our government is 410 00:35:07.440 --> 00:35:14.920 training Americans to be serial killers, right, I mean, it's I don't 411 00:35:14.960 --> 00:35:20.199 know how else you can put it. And there was a movie called Apartment 412 00:35:20.360 --> 00:35:27.920 Zero and it was about South African mercenary and he was quite fond of killing 413 00:35:27.960 --> 00:35:31.559 people. And then and then all the wars dried up, at least the 414 00:35:31.599 --> 00:35:37.440 ones that he could be part of, so he returns. He goes to 415 00:35:37.519 --> 00:35:40.440 London and lives with somebody, and then he starts killing people because he had 416 00:35:40.519 --> 00:35:46.440 learned to enjoy it. And my uncle he died last year. He was 417 00:35:46.480 --> 00:35:53.320 in Vietnam, and he and I had a number of talks about Vietnam. 418 00:35:53.719 --> 00:36:00.400 And he felt really guilty about Vietnam, and I said, al, you 419 00:36:00.480 --> 00:36:07.840 were put into a situation, and a highly abnormal situation, and that's a 420 00:36:07.880 --> 00:36:13.440 normal response, is you want to kill somebody, I mean they're trying to 421 00:36:13.480 --> 00:36:16.119 kill you, they're killing your friends, of course you're going to want to 422 00:36:16.199 --> 00:36:22.280 kill them. And he died last year and I went to La and married 423 00:36:22.320 --> 00:36:31.159 him, and I saw he had painted paintings of g I's standing over dead 424 00:36:31.360 --> 00:36:38.880 children. And at that point I realized, now I know why he just 425 00:36:38.920 --> 00:36:44.400 could I mean, he couldn't shake it. It haunted him his entire life. 426 00:36:45.039 --> 00:36:51.679 Yeah, really really sad, and we were very close, but he 427 00:36:51.760 --> 00:36:54.719 kept that from me. I just like I said, I didn't find out 428 00:36:54.719 --> 00:37:00.239 about it until he died. Yeah, I didn't really understand movies like Apocalypse 429 00:37:00.320 --> 00:37:02.679 now, you know, like I was telling you earlier, I grew up 430 00:37:02.679 --> 00:37:07.079 in the eighties, so I didn't really experience or know that kind of stuff 431 00:37:07.320 --> 00:37:09.800 from you know, sixties, seventies and so forth. But you know, 432 00:37:09.840 --> 00:37:13.760 when I was in high school, I really got into film and became a 433 00:37:13.840 --> 00:37:16.119 movie buff. And I watched Apocalypse. Now back in high school, I 434 00:37:16.119 --> 00:37:19.480 did, but I didn't really understand it or know what the point of it 435 00:37:19.639 --> 00:37:22.960 was. After reading Valentine's book and then going back and watching you know, 436 00:37:22.960 --> 00:37:27.559 Apocalypse, now it makes a lot more sense than I can understand. You 437 00:37:27.599 --> 00:37:30.960 know, You've got not just LSD, but you got this sort of like 438 00:37:30.000 --> 00:37:35.360 people going like Colonel Kirks going nuts, and but he makes sense in the 439 00:37:35.400 --> 00:37:37.039 in the light of a Phoenix program idea, now I do. I'm not 440 00:37:37.119 --> 00:37:40.159 saying that he's supposed to be the Phoenix program. I don't know, but 441 00:37:40.840 --> 00:37:46.360 definitely in the film you get a lot of elements of what was experimental psychological 442 00:37:46.440 --> 00:37:52.199 warfare at the time of Vietnam, like well Kubrick's Full Metal Jacket, for 443 00:37:52.239 --> 00:37:57.280 example. You have the idea of it being filmed live time. That was 444 00:37:57.320 --> 00:38:00.400 the first war that was that was filmed. They would send the transmissions of 445 00:38:00.440 --> 00:38:05.599 the war live, which was a new I think that was a new experiment 446 00:38:05.679 --> 00:38:10.920 in social engineering to to show to the domestic population war in lifetime. You 447 00:38:12.039 --> 00:38:15.400 get, you know, the playing of Wagner as the helicopters are coming over 448 00:38:15.480 --> 00:38:22.639 the horizon. That was another experiment in psyops to villagers who'd never heard something 449 00:38:22.719 --> 00:38:24.320 like this. So and then, of course, as you pointed out, 450 00:38:24.360 --> 00:38:30.440 you know, you've got this this training of and probably profiling of like like 451 00:38:30.480 --> 00:38:35.320 we've said, like you know, the CIA being involved, even corporate consultants 452 00:38:35.320 --> 00:38:37.280 going over and being involved. It was a run out of Michigan University, 453 00:38:37.320 --> 00:38:42.400 Michigan State, which is odd. And then they're they're basically consulting on finding 454 00:38:42.480 --> 00:38:46.159 serial killers to go and murder and put corpses in the most you know, 455 00:38:46.880 --> 00:38:53.440 offensive terrorizing way, particularly with the eye of God and nails in the third 456 00:38:53.480 --> 00:38:59.000 eye there to freak out the Buddhists and whatnot. So, yeah, you 457 00:38:59.320 --> 00:39:01.320 basically were any people to be serial killers. This is kind of wild, 458 00:39:01.360 --> 00:39:05.480 this is nuts. And then you find out, you know, you dive 459 00:39:05.519 --> 00:39:10.960 deeper into people like William Colby and his whole background and his role in Gladio 460 00:39:12.159 --> 00:39:15.639 and the whole fiasco Operation Gladio. I mean, all this stuff for me 461 00:39:15.800 --> 00:39:23.079 just kind of came unraveled with you know, being sort of a GOP Navy 462 00:39:23.119 --> 00:39:29.760 family raised by GOP Navy family. You know, after nine to eleven, 463 00:39:29.800 --> 00:39:32.880 I pretty much just sort of gave up all that kind of stuff because you 464 00:39:32.880 --> 00:39:36.480 see, you see that these big families are all kind of in the same 465 00:39:36.519 --> 00:39:38.719 crime syndicates, right, So it's not like, well, I'm gonna switch 466 00:39:38.760 --> 00:39:42.519 from the Bush Family to I like the Bill you know, I like Bill 467 00:39:42.559 --> 00:39:45.679 Clinton. Now, well they're all involved in you know, the same stuff. 468 00:39:45.719 --> 00:39:47.599 So for me, the good part of all that was that, you 469 00:39:47.639 --> 00:39:53.000 know, this kind of broke the left right paradigm for me back around the 470 00:39:53.039 --> 00:39:58.719 time of you know, two thousand and three. But that's biographical data. 471 00:39:58.760 --> 00:40:00.840 We were talking about the movies Apologize I got all fun to We're talking about 472 00:40:01.199 --> 00:40:06.440 Vico Method, and we were talking about I like, but you know what, 473 00:40:06.559 --> 00:40:08.559 Yeah, that's the thing is a lot of movies actually have this theme 474 00:40:08.719 --> 00:40:15.920 of the uh, you know, the crazy Vietnam Vet, and that's a 475 00:40:15.039 --> 00:40:17.320 kind of a joke that people do, and I don't I don't mind the 476 00:40:17.400 --> 00:40:22.880 joke. But there turns out the reason for the crazy Vietnam Vet is that 477 00:40:22.920 --> 00:40:28.159 the military was trying to find crazy guys right to tournament into serial killers. 478 00:40:29.079 --> 00:40:34.719 And my uncle was just a runner of the milk kid from the Midwest. 479 00:40:35.239 --> 00:40:40.480 I did well in high school, very smart, and what he was turned 480 00:40:40.519 --> 00:40:47.480 into obviously was pretty horrific. You tangle twin Peaks, which I find interesting, 481 00:40:47.639 --> 00:40:52.000 and you address a number of the occult teams in Twin Peaks, and 482 00:40:52.039 --> 00:40:58.159 some of them jump right out at you, but you focus on Jack Parsons 483 00:40:58.440 --> 00:41:04.599 when you talk about Twin Peaks. Give us some background about Jack Parsons aka 484 00:41:04.840 --> 00:41:14.360 the Beast. Well, he was a prodigious rocketeer and scientists, I guess 485 00:41:14.400 --> 00:41:19.599 you could say. And of course the jet Propulsion Laboratory is sort of his 486 00:41:19.719 --> 00:41:24.800 baby. It's it's it comes from his work. He was into the occult 487 00:41:24.840 --> 00:41:30.639 and for a time was involved in the circles of Croley, the Oto and 488 00:41:30.519 --> 00:41:37.280 various lodges out in California. And his specific plan was this idea that you 489 00:41:37.280 --> 00:41:42.800 could meld science with full on you know, occultism and kind of produce these 490 00:41:42.840 --> 00:41:45.880 big ritual workings. And one of those, I mean, I think all 491 00:41:45.960 --> 00:41:49.519 rockets are also kind of like in his mind, like sending the rocket into 492 00:41:49.559 --> 00:41:52.880 space is like this you know, phallic sort of seminal transmission where you're impregnating 493 00:41:53.119 --> 00:41:58.039 the universe or something like that. But he also had this idea of the 494 00:41:58.079 --> 00:42:04.119 Babylon working, which was to re enact or actually create the apocalypse. So 495 00:42:04.280 --> 00:42:07.519 for Crollians and people in that sphere, they tend to think that John's apocalypse 496 00:42:07.519 --> 00:42:12.599 at the end of the Book of the Bible is this sort of coded magical 497 00:42:12.719 --> 00:42:17.440 text that you can invoke through some sort of ritual working. So Parsons was 498 00:42:17.440 --> 00:42:22.280 involved in I think an incestuous sort of ritual working at one point, and 499 00:42:22.320 --> 00:42:24.519 then there was another incident where he thought he could create a homunculus, and 500 00:42:24.840 --> 00:42:30.360 so he really seemed to want to take these occult ideas and put them into 501 00:42:30.400 --> 00:42:36.400 practice. Probably people have heard of l Ron Hubbard and I think it was 502 00:42:36.400 --> 00:42:40.320 was it l Ron Hubbard stole Marjorie Cameron from Jack Parsons, right, so, 503 00:42:42.280 --> 00:42:45.920 and some money too, Yeah, yeah, okay, yeah, I'm 504 00:42:45.920 --> 00:42:50.719 trying to remember all these details. But yeah, but what's interesting about Parsons 505 00:42:50.760 --> 00:42:54.159 is that he seemed to take everything that you would think is science and kind 506 00:42:54.199 --> 00:42:59.199 of give it this esoteric alchemical meaning. So, you know, the idea 507 00:42:59.199 --> 00:43:01.800 of splitting the me or something like that. I mean, this is not 508 00:43:02.039 --> 00:43:07.000 Parsons, but you know, people who have that attitude would think that it's 509 00:43:07.000 --> 00:43:12.119 like a ritual working where you're releasing the energy and perhaps even opening a portal. 510 00:43:12.159 --> 00:43:16.320 And the reason that relates so that you have this this idea that Parsons 511 00:43:16.360 --> 00:43:21.920 thought he might could open up some sort of dimensional spiritual portal, and I 512 00:43:21.960 --> 00:43:25.280 remember when I was watching Twin Peaks, I didn't actually I wasn't actually sure 513 00:43:25.360 --> 00:43:30.639 that that's what Mark Frost and David Lynch had in mind. So I wrote 514 00:43:30.639 --> 00:43:35.920 a pretty speculative essay that I put in I think the first Hollywood book about 515 00:43:35.920 --> 00:43:38.639 Twin Peaks, because I'd noticed throughout the series I had to watch it a 516 00:43:38.679 --> 00:43:42.559 couple of times to really understand what was going on, because it's a pretty 517 00:43:42.639 --> 00:43:45.519 sophisticated kind of deep thing there, with a lot of philosophy and a lot 518 00:43:45.559 --> 00:43:51.079 of esoteric stuff. And it's also a satires because David Lynch is kind of 519 00:43:51.079 --> 00:43:54.480 making fun of soap operas, which were really popular in the early nineties. 520 00:43:55.920 --> 00:43:58.760 But then when you watch it, it's like, well, there's this really 521 00:43:58.760 --> 00:44:00.880 weird kind of esoteric stuff going on too. I wonder what that's all about. 522 00:44:01.440 --> 00:44:06.519 And I first encountered the idea that it might be something deeper in the 523 00:44:06.559 --> 00:44:09.360 centersor Force's trilogy, where there's a discussion of David Lynch in one of the 524 00:44:09.440 --> 00:44:13.079 chapters, and so I thought, well, let me just dive deeper into 525 00:44:13.119 --> 00:44:15.760 this and see what I can come up with. And I noticed in some 526 00:44:15.800 --> 00:44:21.440 of the scenes that you know, actually put ritual magic schiguls up there on 527 00:44:21.480 --> 00:44:24.920 the board where Cooper is doing a lot of his investigation work. And so 528 00:44:24.960 --> 00:44:29.960 I wrote an essay basically saying that I think this probably relates to the Babylon 529 00:44:30.079 --> 00:44:34.599 working of Parsons and Crowley and this kind of stuff. And then Mark Frost 530 00:44:34.599 --> 00:44:37.119 puts out this big fat book on the history of Twin Peaks and says all 531 00:44:37.159 --> 00:44:42.320 of that. So I'm not saying that Mark Frost read my essay. Maybe 532 00:44:42.360 --> 00:44:44.480 he did, I don't know, but I just thought it was funny to 533 00:44:44.519 --> 00:44:47.480 be vindicated because literally, in the Twin Peaks history book by Mark Frost, 534 00:44:49.000 --> 00:44:51.559 I mean, he goes into Crowley, he goes into the Parsons, he 535 00:44:51.599 --> 00:44:54.039 goes into the Babylon working, he goes into all of that, saying that, 536 00:44:54.119 --> 00:44:58.400 yeah, that's really what we were drawing from when we did the mythology 537 00:44:58.400 --> 00:45:06.360 of Twin Peaks. So, yeah, another example of esoteric Hollywood's ohto, 538 00:45:06.760 --> 00:45:15.760 that's what Jack Parsons embraced. He was a croleide and and he helped develop 539 00:45:15.360 --> 00:45:22.360 rocket engines, as Jay was saying, and he was a fairly nasty piece 540 00:45:22.360 --> 00:45:27.239 of work. But there's a crater on the moon named after him, Yeah, 541 00:45:27.559 --> 00:45:34.039 a crater named after an Alison appolyte. And then he took in a 542 00:45:34.239 --> 00:45:42.719 very I think shell shocked l Ron Hubbard, and Elron stole his wife and 543 00:45:43.239 --> 00:45:46.800 some money too, and oh and I forgot Parsons also sold the secrets to 544 00:45:46.840 --> 00:45:52.360 Israel. Yes, he got in trouble for that and what he had his 545 00:45:52.639 --> 00:45:59.480 top security clearance revoked like five times for I mean, you know, he's 546 00:45:59.559 --> 00:46:02.880 a he's a guy that's quite fond of black magic. I could see, 547 00:46:04.119 --> 00:46:07.519 you know, that could rub certain people wrong. Although I'm I mean, 548 00:46:07.559 --> 00:46:10.280 he always got a security client's bank, so it's kind of interesting. Yeah, 549 00:46:12.079 --> 00:46:16.800 but I find it interesting that he after el Ron Hubbard stole his wife 550 00:46:16.800 --> 00:46:23.199 and money, that he blew himself up. Yeah. Wasn't this in this 551 00:46:24.039 --> 00:46:29.360 humunculous experiment or what he thought was going to create some kind of space being 552 00:46:29.480 --> 00:46:30.639 or something. I forget what he thought it was going to do, but 553 00:46:31.440 --> 00:46:35.159 it ended up blowing up? Right? Or do you do you think there 554 00:46:35.199 --> 00:46:40.000 was something else like he was he was killed or I don't know, I 555 00:46:40.000 --> 00:46:44.920 could see a guy like that, well he was, I mean, he 556 00:46:45.119 --> 00:46:50.760 was a genius with those types of chemicals. I mean, without a doubt, 557 00:46:50.760 --> 00:46:57.960 he was way ahead of everybody. Did he kill himself or was it 558 00:46:58.079 --> 00:47:04.119 something going awry? I do not know, but I can see how a 559 00:47:04.119 --> 00:47:10.840 guy like Jack Parsons could have a lot of enemies and what a better way 560 00:47:10.880 --> 00:47:15.199 to get rid of him than to blow him up? All he works on 561 00:47:15.320 --> 00:47:22.119 chemicals. Well he got blown up. Convenient and I don't subscribe to that, 562 00:47:22.719 --> 00:47:30.599 but it's a possibility. Let's get into Poultergeist and it's director Toby Hopper. 563 00:47:31.760 --> 00:47:36.880 You said some very interesting things. And again we've got a connection with 564 00:47:37.440 --> 00:47:44.280 Alistair Crowley because the television, the cathode ray that was designed, and the 565 00:47:44.320 --> 00:47:49.800 television plays a central part in Polterge, a central piece of it's an essential 566 00:47:49.800 --> 00:47:55.440 piece of poultry Poultergeist, and and it was developed by someone who is also 567 00:47:55.599 --> 00:48:02.400 in The Gold Guy, right, which which probably was. So we've got 568 00:48:02.440 --> 00:48:08.840 some heavy duty occult stuff going on there. Give us tell us about Poultrygeist 569 00:48:09.000 --> 00:48:15.760 and what Toby Hooper was trying to get at. Yeah, if I remember, 570 00:48:15.880 --> 00:48:22.039 If I remember, the screenplay is Spielberg and it specifically mentions the beast, 571 00:48:22.320 --> 00:48:25.599 but you don't really hear that if you're watching the movie. I had 572 00:48:25.599 --> 00:48:30.079 to go look up the screenplay to see what what what the original attention was. 573 00:48:30.159 --> 00:48:35.599 And so the critique there, I think is that television is the means 574 00:48:35.679 --> 00:48:43.000 by which you would have a sort of spiritual toxifying of the youth, in 575 00:48:43.039 --> 00:48:49.760 particular because it's the little girl that's really transfixed by the TV, and she's 576 00:48:49.800 --> 00:48:53.280 she's the one that's really having the experiences with you know, the dead and 577 00:48:53.320 --> 00:48:58.559 the spirits and the demons by the TV, and and the rest of the 578 00:48:58.719 --> 00:49:01.440 family and particularly the parents, they don't even notice. They're sort of oblivious 579 00:49:01.480 --> 00:49:07.039 to what's really going on because we have the story that it's built on an 580 00:49:07.320 --> 00:49:12.000 Indian burial ground or something like that. But I really think that's secondary to 581 00:49:12.039 --> 00:49:15.480 the point of, you know, the the movie is really about, again 582 00:49:15.119 --> 00:49:20.280 similar to what we find and they live, except that it's pointing out, 583 00:49:20.320 --> 00:49:23.320 maybe maybe even in a revelation of the method way that the real way that 584 00:49:23.480 --> 00:49:27.840 the society and the youth will be sacrificed to the beast. I think is 585 00:49:27.880 --> 00:49:32.159 what I said, is via the toxic culture that would come through mainstream media, 586 00:49:32.159 --> 00:49:36.840 through the TV. And you were talking about the Goldandawn, it was 587 00:49:36.920 --> 00:49:40.840 Crooks William Crooks. The Crooks Tube is the origin of the of television. 588 00:49:40.840 --> 00:49:44.760 And that's a guy who was in the Golden Dawn, which is Curly's a 589 00:49:44.840 --> 00:49:49.360 first magical group before he started the the OT or before he joined the OTO. 590 00:49:49.440 --> 00:49:53.760 He didn't start it, but he joined. H yeah, yeah, 591 00:49:54.239 --> 00:49:59.440 yeah, so so yeah, that was my reading of Poultry, guys. 592 00:49:59.519 --> 00:50:02.039 I' watched it in a long time, went back and watched it and you 593 00:50:02.039 --> 00:50:05.239 know, took a lot of notes and paid close attention to it when did 594 00:50:05.239 --> 00:50:07.280 a bunch of research on it and kind of what the screenplay was originally intended 595 00:50:07.320 --> 00:50:13.360 to be. So sometimes movies go in a different direction than what the screenplay 596 00:50:13.360 --> 00:50:16.159 has, right, So sometimes there'll be stuff like the Beast, you know 597 00:50:16.239 --> 00:50:19.960 that's in the screenplay, that's not that doesn't really come out of the movie. 598 00:50:20.000 --> 00:50:24.960 But it makes a lot more sense when you know that what's interesting the 599 00:50:25.360 --> 00:50:31.880 television becomes the vortex, the wormhole. Well, and what did Levey say, 600 00:50:32.000 --> 00:50:37.880 right? LaVey said that trying to paraphrase him of something like every home 601 00:50:37.920 --> 00:50:44.559 would have a satanic altar and that would be the TV. He said something 602 00:50:44.599 --> 00:50:47.639 like that. Yeah, and you get into MK ultra at that point. 603 00:50:47.719 --> 00:50:54.679 Again, you talk about John Lilly's work with children as far as being able 604 00:50:54.679 --> 00:50:59.639 to make tomatons out of children, and he actually wrote a book about it. 605 00:51:00.760 --> 00:51:04.840 Yeah, he's got a book called What's Up over Here? It's Programming 606 00:51:04.840 --> 00:51:07.639 and meta Programming in the Human Biocomputer. And actually bought that because I didn't 607 00:51:07.679 --> 00:51:10.559 think that. I was skeptical. I thought surely he wouldn't put that in 608 00:51:10.599 --> 00:51:15.280 the book. Man, it's almost unreadable. If you try to read the 609 00:51:15.320 --> 00:51:17.280 book, it just most of it doesn't make any sense. I have no 610 00:51:17.320 --> 00:51:22.519 idea what he's talking about. Which that could be that I don't know the 611 00:51:22.559 --> 00:51:25.639 science of what he's trying to talk about, or it's just he was so 612 00:51:27.079 --> 00:51:29.679 tripped out on LSD that he didn't know what it was. I could go 613 00:51:29.760 --> 00:51:32.559 either way. But there is a chapter towards the end where he does talk 614 00:51:32.599 --> 00:51:37.880 about doing this with children, and he claims he was able to sort of. 615 00:51:38.199 --> 00:51:43.280 He talks about it as if everything is a program. So he's basically 616 00:51:43.320 --> 00:51:47.320 saying the human mind is like a biological computer, and that there's these base 617 00:51:47.599 --> 00:51:52.039 layer programs that run like which are your drives, like to eat, to 618 00:51:52.119 --> 00:51:55.880 sleep, and then there's other layers and programs that have been tacked on. 619 00:51:57.159 --> 00:52:00.760 Maybe through genetic memories. I'm going from I haven't looked at the book in 620 00:52:00.800 --> 00:52:05.679 many years, but something like that, Like maybe he thinks there's genetic memories 621 00:52:05.719 --> 00:52:09.519 that evolved and are in your programming through your ancestors, and then there's things 622 00:52:09.519 --> 00:52:14.960 that you encountered in your life that the program that imprinted you. And he 623 00:52:15.039 --> 00:52:20.480 thinks that through a lot of LSD and then reprogramming, kind of like you 624 00:52:20.559 --> 00:52:23.320 and Cameron did with the reimprinting, you can wipe the slate and kind of 625 00:52:23.360 --> 00:52:30.559 create a new being by tinkering with their base programs. And this is interesting 626 00:52:30.639 --> 00:52:34.480 because there's something to this. I don't know a whole lot about this field, 627 00:52:34.480 --> 00:52:39.159 but I was watching the famous Jordan Peterson course a couple months ago, 628 00:52:39.639 --> 00:52:43.440 the one that he did that he's had up online for a long time. 629 00:52:43.719 --> 00:52:47.599 It's his full psychology personality course. It's I don't know, twenty thirty lectures 630 00:52:49.119 --> 00:52:52.079 and about four or five lectures. Then he actually gets into this and he 631 00:52:52.199 --> 00:52:54.599 uses a very similar type of menal. I'm not saying that he does what 632 00:52:54.719 --> 00:52:58.679 Lily does. I'm just saying that there's something to this because he starts talking 633 00:52:58.679 --> 00:53:04.239 about base your programming that is how the human mind functions and so forth. 634 00:53:04.239 --> 00:53:07.000 So I think there's something to this, and that leads me to think that 635 00:53:07.440 --> 00:53:12.920 Lily is talking about something legitimate. But a lot of the book is like 636 00:53:12.960 --> 00:53:19.760 I said, it's really just the the terminological baggage is just who knows what 637 00:53:19.800 --> 00:53:22.480 he's talking about. But it's it's a real book. It's crazy. I 638 00:53:22.480 --> 00:53:25.360 mean, it's like wow, but it should. I don't guess it's that 639 00:53:25.400 --> 00:53:29.679 far fetched though. If we know that Alfred Kinsey, you know, he 640 00:53:29.760 --> 00:53:30.960 did this kind of stuff to kids, So I don't guess it's that far 641 00:53:31.000 --> 00:53:36.440 fetched that Lily would be involved in doing this kind of stuff. Subproject went 642 00:53:36.559 --> 00:53:42.079 thirty six talks about giving a life for a shock to children. And then 643 00:53:42.280 --> 00:53:47.400 you've got Loretta Bender. She was a famous psychiatrist at Melview and she was 644 00:53:47.559 --> 00:53:52.079 dosing children for weeks on end. I mean, well, there you go. 645 00:53:52.119 --> 00:53:54.559 There's another example. Yeah, so it's not fun. That is youngest 646 00:53:54.599 --> 00:53:59.960 five or six. Wow, she would dose them for months and she was 647 00:54:00.159 --> 00:54:07.480 being uh the Human Ecology Fund, which was the CIA front, So who 648 00:54:07.519 --> 00:54:10.639 knows. I mean, these are examples that we know about what the CI 649 00:54:10.760 --> 00:54:17.199 has done to children. Yeah, and most of that mk Altra documentation was 650 00:54:17.239 --> 00:54:22.360 destroyed, destroyed, right, but it really shows how sadistic they were, 651 00:54:22.639 --> 00:54:28.320 how sadistic they were to children. And I just, uh, when I 652 00:54:28.360 --> 00:54:34.000 started reading about this type of stuff made me very very angry that that there 653 00:54:34.039 --> 00:54:38.360 was no lines. I mean, there's no moral lines. Yeah, it's 654 00:54:38.400 --> 00:54:45.519 like a mad science thing, right, like Mangola's idea of science or you 655 00:54:45.519 --> 00:54:49.400 know, there's a lot of parallels with well thing back to like didn't Skinner 656 00:54:49.519 --> 00:54:52.599 Skinner put his daughter in a box? Didn't he because he thought he could 657 00:54:52.679 --> 00:54:58.000 program his daughter. It wouldn't surprise me, but there's some story about him 658 00:54:58.039 --> 00:55:05.400 like putting his putting his kids in his Skinner box to reprogram them. So 659 00:55:05.519 --> 00:55:13.480 you write that Hollywood, with all points where are confronted by phony dialectics, 660 00:55:13.559 --> 00:55:19.039 which are essentially false paradigms of opposition, and they are almost always wrong, 661 00:55:19.239 --> 00:55:22.960 maintaining only a piece of the puzzle. And when you write about that, 662 00:55:23.239 --> 00:55:32.400 you write about individualism versu the collective, and you talk about Hollywood trying to 663 00:55:32.440 --> 00:55:40.559 destroy the individualism and make everyone a part of the collective consciousness of the propaganda 664 00:55:40.599 --> 00:55:45.360 that's being produced in Hollywood. Could you explicate that a little bit. I'm 665 00:55:45.360 --> 00:55:49.119 trying to remember that. I think that's in the context that when I was 666 00:55:49.159 --> 00:55:54.519 talking about B for Vendetta and how bper Vendetta is about, you know, 667 00:55:54.639 --> 00:56:01.760 anarcho individualistic rebellion, but the the way it's presented in the story is kind 668 00:56:01.800 --> 00:56:07.719 of like, yeah, but in reality, we're all collectively Guy Fox or 669 00:56:07.760 --> 00:56:09.760 something like that. And so I think I was just trying to point out 670 00:56:09.800 --> 00:56:16.159 that, in my view, anarchism has a long history of being a tool 671 00:56:16.199 --> 00:56:22.079 as well for intelligence operations and false flags. I think in one of the 672 00:56:22.079 --> 00:56:28.679 British intelligence writers, maybe Conrad, you know, there's this discussion of where 673 00:56:28.679 --> 00:56:31.079 the I think it's British intelligence does a false flag with anarchists or something like 674 00:56:31.119 --> 00:56:36.199 that. So that was kind of what I was getting at the same idea 675 00:56:36.280 --> 00:56:43.880 comes up in the Guy Ritchie Sherlock Holmes. This the part two where these 676 00:56:43.880 --> 00:56:49.880 anarchists engage in these bombings. But it turns out it was actually Moriarty who 677 00:56:50.000 --> 00:56:52.920 in the story actually kind of appears to be a British and he's like an 678 00:56:52.920 --> 00:56:59.159 Oxford professor or Cane British and he's working with military Dove complex to arm difference 679 00:56:59.239 --> 00:57:04.559 both sides the war for World War One. In the Robert Downey Junior Jude 680 00:57:04.639 --> 00:57:07.639 Law Guy Ritchie version of Charlot Combs. I always thought that part two of 681 00:57:07.679 --> 00:57:12.079 Charlot Combs is pretty revealing in that regard to But yeah, That's what I 682 00:57:12.119 --> 00:57:15.920 was getting at, was just that when the movies give you even the idea 683 00:57:16.039 --> 00:57:22.119 of something like the rugged individual or the anarcho individual, even that's really just 684 00:57:22.400 --> 00:57:27.920 kind of a corporate, fraudulent type of rebellions. It's an inauthentic rebellion, 685 00:57:27.960 --> 00:57:30.639 I guess, is what I was trying to get at. And you're right. 686 00:57:30.719 --> 00:57:37.519 Both cultic groups and government agencies have the desire for control, and particularly 687 00:57:37.559 --> 00:57:43.159 the control of thought. And one of the most effective groups to achieve this 688 00:57:43.519 --> 00:57:51.920 is through childhood manipulation, which we're just talking about. And I've got a 689 00:57:52.000 --> 00:58:02.079 quote here that I that I liked. There are many many There are many 690 00:58:02.119 --> 00:58:08.920 many problems for positing ultimate reality or the absolute as an impersonal force. If 691 00:58:09.000 --> 00:58:14.840 ultimate reality is impersonal and chaotic, then all localized of ads, phenomena, 692 00:58:14.880 --> 00:58:20.639 and objects are also devoid of any ultimate meaning. Language, mathematics, logic, 693 00:58:21.079 --> 00:58:27.199 et cetera. Are thus also annihilated as merely mental fictions or at best 694 00:58:27.519 --> 00:58:34.239 some cosmic force we do not understand. These are servants of chaos and the 695 00:58:34.320 --> 00:58:43.199 abyss. So basically what you're saying is that there you can look at come 696 00:58:43.199 --> 00:58:50.440 at reality one of two ways, metaphysically or materially, And if you come 697 00:58:50.440 --> 00:58:58.440 at reality materially, then everything loses its meaning. Yeah, if all reality 698 00:58:58.519 --> 00:59:06.280 is reduced to is pure matter reductionism, then ultimate reality is impersonal and other 699 00:59:06.320 --> 00:59:10.280 things would follow from that too, Like in philosophy there's fancy words like the 700 00:59:10.840 --> 00:59:15.719 world of the universe would be disteleological. That just means that there's no telos 701 00:59:15.800 --> 00:59:19.239 or purpose to it. Everything's just sort of random chaos. So if everything's 702 00:59:19.280 --> 00:59:22.519 random chaos, then it follows from that that, well, my life is 703 00:59:22.519 --> 00:59:28.199 also chaos. This week is chaos, today's chaos. My argument is our 704 00:59:28.199 --> 00:59:31.320 discussion today is chaos. So essentially kind of it becomes a form of nihilism 705 00:59:31.400 --> 00:59:37.239 ultimately, And yeah, I think I was trying to argue that nihilism is 706 00:59:37.280 --> 00:59:40.480 sort of the end result of a lot of revolutionary anarcho philosophy. Right, 707 00:59:40.519 --> 00:59:45.960 So the same would apply to communism as well, Right, So I'm not 708 00:59:45.039 --> 00:59:51.400 just just saying that revolutionary philosophy in terms of anarchists are problematic, but also 709 00:59:52.039 --> 00:59:59.480 socialism, collectivism. All revolutionary philosophies kind of have this this issue with whether 710 00:59:59.719 --> 01:00:02.639 the actually makes sense and has a purpose or a goal. And you know, 711 01:00:02.639 --> 01:00:07.159 if you read Brave New World, he kind of says, well, 712 01:00:07.440 --> 01:00:10.199 all the revolutions were for this, for Brave New World. So well, 713 01:00:10.199 --> 01:00:14.599 wait a minute, I thought revolutions were about freedom and humanity. No, 714 01:00:14.599 --> 01:00:17.719 no, they're actually anti freedom and they're antihum. So so it's like revolutions 715 01:00:17.800 --> 01:00:24.639 kind of seem to go in that uh, irrational disteleological direction. And I 716 01:00:24.679 --> 01:00:30.159 was pulling from an argument there that doctor Phil Cherrard and father Dimitri Steniloi, 717 01:00:30.199 --> 01:00:37.679 a famous Orthodox theologian. They kind of make this point that certain religions posit 718 01:00:37.880 --> 01:00:44.039 and impersonal absolute and if if all reality is impersonal, if the absolute is 719 01:00:44.079 --> 01:00:47.360 just a force or impersonal, then you would have this sort of nihilistic end 720 01:00:47.400 --> 01:00:53.440 result. What would you call, Well, you've got like hardcore atheism, 721 01:00:53.559 --> 01:00:59.800 but then you've got deism, which basically says that God made a watch and 722 01:01:00.480 --> 01:01:06.079 this is the watch. There are Buddhists, like they're about of Buddhism doesn't 723 01:01:06.119 --> 01:01:08.800 believe in a God, but they believe in karma. But to me, 724 01:01:10.679 --> 01:01:16.280 if you're going to believe in karma, you're believing in something metaphysical and incomprehensible, 725 01:01:16.480 --> 01:01:22.800 which I think could easily substitute for God. And actually am manual Kant, 726 01:01:22.840 --> 01:01:25.559 that's one of his arguments for the existence of God is karma, and 727 01:01:25.599 --> 01:01:32.360 of course he doesn't call it karma. But so I like your take on 728 01:01:32.440 --> 01:01:37.159 that. Yeah, there's areas of Kant that I like. For example, 729 01:01:38.360 --> 01:01:43.880 I believe in what I think is the best sort of logical philosophical argument for 730 01:01:43.880 --> 01:01:49.159 God's existence is the transcendental argument for God's existence, and it has some parallels 731 01:01:49.199 --> 01:01:52.840 and overlap with Kant in that Kant did a lot of transcendental arguments. He 732 01:01:52.920 --> 01:01:57.719 didn't, however, do the transcedental argument for God because Kant thought that all 733 01:01:57.719 --> 01:02:02.719 the transcendental categories were purely mental, and so they're kind of mental structuring features 734 01:02:02.760 --> 01:02:07.800 that you impose on the world for the raw sense data that comes in. 735 01:02:08.039 --> 01:02:12.960 I'm not a Hegelian, but one interesting thing that Hegel did was he took 736 01:02:13.480 --> 01:02:16.480 that insight from Kant and he said, it doesn't really make sense to think 737 01:02:16.519 --> 01:02:21.119 that these categories are grounded in the human mind, because the human mind is 738 01:02:21.159 --> 01:02:25.760 finite, and there's a pretty serious problems and cons of you. For example, 739 01:02:25.880 --> 01:02:31.440 Kant couldn't ever know if other minds operate the way he thought the mind 740 01:02:31.519 --> 01:02:35.880 worked, because other minds would be, for example, in the realm of 741 01:02:35.920 --> 01:02:39.840 the numena that goes outside of what Kant thinks you can know the phenomena. 742 01:02:39.960 --> 01:02:45.960 So Hegel says a better move would be to say that the structuring categories or 743 01:02:45.960 --> 01:02:52.199 the transcendental categories that make knowledge possible are grounded in the divine mind. Now, 744 01:02:52.199 --> 01:02:55.639 I don't believe in Hegel's view of God or his political philosophy. I 745 01:02:55.800 --> 01:03:04.280 just specifically think that that move that he made is a possible solution to one 746 01:03:04.280 --> 01:03:07.480 of the problems in CONT's view. And so the transcendental argument for God is 747 01:03:07.480 --> 01:03:13.280 basically saying that the transcendental categories that talks about have to be the case for 748 01:03:13.440 --> 01:03:16.519 knowledge to even be possible, and that God's existence is the very thing that 749 01:03:16.559 --> 01:03:22.480 would make knowledge possible. So that's the move I would agree with. As 750 01:03:22.480 --> 01:03:25.400 for Buddhism, I'm not super studied in Eastern philosophy, but I think that 751 01:03:25.440 --> 01:03:32.400 a lot of Eastern philosophies tend to kind of fall over into basically viewing reality 752 01:03:32.440 --> 01:03:37.960 typically as something illusory, or they tend to sort of embrace a lot of 753 01:03:38.000 --> 01:03:45.679 contradictions at times. So to me, that would kind of just negate whether 754 01:03:45.760 --> 01:03:50.440 they have the ability in an epistemic sense to justify knowledge. So I always 755 01:03:50.559 --> 01:03:54.199 put a high value in my argumentation on whether the knowledge that we have or 756 01:03:54.199 --> 01:04:00.079 the knowledge claims can be epistemically justified. And typically, uh, I've never 757 01:04:00.119 --> 01:04:03.400 I had one interaction with a Buddhist gay maybe three years ago, we had 758 01:04:03.400 --> 01:04:10.119 a discussion on a podcast, but it's not it's not a field I've interacted 759 01:04:10.159 --> 01:04:13.719 with a lot, But typically they don't really care about the kinds of things 760 01:04:13.760 --> 01:04:16.559 that people in Western philosophy are looking for, like justified true belief. I 761 01:04:16.559 --> 01:04:19.280 think most Buddhists said, well, we don't really, we're not really interested 762 01:04:19.280 --> 01:04:27.840 in doing that. I read Hegel as an undergrad, and we're he'd completely 763 01:04:27.880 --> 01:04:33.599 lost me was absolute spirit hovering over Prussia. Yeah, I definitely think that 764 01:04:33.679 --> 01:04:38.239 his overall, his system is ridiculous. So I don't want to give the 765 01:04:38.239 --> 01:04:41.760 impression that I'm a Hegelian. I just thought that one move that he makes 766 01:04:41.800 --> 01:04:45.480 to critique con is an interesting insight. It actually works for people who do 767 01:04:45.559 --> 01:04:50.199 believe in uh in philosophy, it's theology. It's called divine conceptualism, and 768 01:04:50.239 --> 01:04:57.280 this is an approach where reality is grounded in the divine mind. Basically is 769 01:04:57.599 --> 01:05:02.840 what that's all about. So with Kant, you had the rationalists and they 770 01:05:02.920 --> 01:05:10.000 said that truth can be deciphered within, and then you had the empiricists who 771 01:05:10.079 --> 01:05:17.440 said that you can only decipher truth by measuring by external experience. And they 772 01:05:17.440 --> 01:05:23.559 were at odds with each other. But Emmanuel Kant brought them together and he 773 01:05:23.719 --> 01:05:30.639 said that we have twelve categories of reason, and that we have this we 774 01:05:30.760 --> 01:05:35.519 called it intuition of space and time, and that these twelve categories of reason 775 01:05:35.599 --> 01:05:42.639 have to align with the space and time, and that's how we ultimately discern 776 01:05:42.719 --> 01:05:45.239 truth. So he was able to bring the rationalists and the empiricists together. 777 01:05:46.519 --> 01:05:51.880 And a lot of people have argued that so cont is basically saying, and 778 01:05:53.239 --> 01:05:56.559 I don't know how many categories and pure reason there are, but it sounds 779 01:05:56.599 --> 01:06:01.559 like I'm sure that I believe that humans are hardwired. And that's one of 780 01:06:01.559 --> 01:06:08.960 the things that Kant is driving now and an Eastern thought. In many Eastern 781 01:06:09.000 --> 01:06:15.920 schools, humans are hardwired. Plato, humans are hardwired. And we had 782 01:06:16.039 --> 01:06:23.039 Chomsky come out and say that humans are hardwired for language, which was kind 783 01:06:23.039 --> 01:06:29.960 of revolutionary because it completely overturned what we thought was tabula rasa. But when 784 01:06:29.960 --> 01:06:36.719 we get into mathematics, I've got, you know, I'm kind of our 785 01:06:36.760 --> 01:06:44.159 mathematics a truth. There is mathematics a truth. I'm a little bit torn 786 01:06:44.280 --> 01:06:54.360 with that because I believe, I mean, the Fibonacci sequence shows up a 787 01:06:54.400 --> 01:07:01.360 lot of places in nature, so obviously that is mimicking reality, the Fibonacci 788 01:07:01.400 --> 01:07:06.800 sequels. Now, with Kant, he would say he had what's called an 789 01:07:08.360 --> 01:07:14.960 a priori synthetic argument, And what he meant by that is such truths are 790 01:07:14.960 --> 01:07:19.280 known a priori since they apply with strict and universal necessity to all objects of 791 01:07:19.320 --> 01:07:25.840 our experience, what without having been derived from that experience itself. So Kant 792 01:07:25.880 --> 01:07:31.079 would say that when you're measuring the hypotenuse of the right triangle, a escort 793 01:07:31.159 --> 01:07:35.480 plus b s cort equals c squord. He would say that that because that's 794 01:07:35.639 --> 01:07:40.840 always going to be that way. He would say that we have knowledge of 795 01:07:40.880 --> 01:07:47.440 that within ourselves and that it is a constant truth. And here is my 796 01:07:48.679 --> 01:07:59.280 problem with kant and mathematics those when you get into Euclidean geometry, you've got 797 01:08:00.280 --> 01:08:08.599 wonderful equations that are really simplistic and elegant, like the pythagora in theorem maysquare 798 01:08:09.119 --> 01:08:15.640 scored equals scored. But then Einstein came along with general relativity and he showed 799 01:08:15.640 --> 01:08:20.560 that straight lines are only in the minds of humans, that they do not 800 01:08:20.720 --> 01:08:29.600 exist in reality. And Euclidean geometry is predicated on straight lines. So what 801 01:08:29.720 --> 01:08:32.079 are we to make of that. Well, one way that you could kind 802 01:08:32.079 --> 01:08:38.239 of bypass that whole discussion about the status of geometrical objects or whatever would be 803 01:08:38.239 --> 01:08:42.600 to talk about universals and universal claims. Right, So, for example, 804 01:08:42.680 --> 01:08:48.039 to say, like all straight lines only exist in the mind as a straight 805 01:08:48.119 --> 01:08:54.319 line would be a universal claim. So, even though perhaps Einstein wouldn't be 806 01:08:54.359 --> 01:08:59.159 interested in revisiting these kind of medieval discussions, the fact that people don't want 807 01:08:59.199 --> 01:09:02.880 to revisit those tops which doesn't mean that they're not underlying the possibility of predication. 808 01:09:03.079 --> 01:09:08.439 So I think that this just brings us back to questions of uh, 809 01:09:08.520 --> 01:09:13.720 you know, the existence of universals, which I think that language I always 810 01:09:13.720 --> 01:09:17.279 already the language requires it. So we need we need metaphysics, we need 811 01:09:17.479 --> 01:09:23.600 universals, we need universal categories, and we can't escape those things by you 812 01:09:23.680 --> 01:09:29.039 know, the Kantient move to psychologize it, or the skeptical move to basically 813 01:09:29.159 --> 01:09:32.000 say that there's only particulars like David Hume or something like that. All of 814 01:09:32.079 --> 01:09:38.520 those positions end up being kind of destructive to the possibility of having knowledge. 815 01:09:38.600 --> 01:09:44.600 So so I would just say that we can broaden the question beyond the status 816 01:09:44.680 --> 01:09:49.159 of math or geometrical objects to return it to the question of universals. And 817 01:09:50.279 --> 01:09:54.439 there have to be universal categories. The only way to have a universal is 818 01:09:54.520 --> 01:09:59.680 to say that there's a divine mind that houses the universals. I would agree 819 01:09:59.720 --> 01:10:04.840 with that. It's interesting. I wrote a book that or a co author 820 01:10:04.880 --> 01:10:13.920 of a book that run in Kantian thought, and there were two other co 821 01:10:14.039 --> 01:10:16.319 authors, and they weren't really familiar with Khan. So I was the guy 822 01:10:16.359 --> 01:10:20.640 that kind of carried the water on that one. And I didn't realize you 823 01:10:20.720 --> 01:10:24.600 were a philosophy guy until today, So I just knew of you as kind 824 01:10:24.600 --> 01:10:30.439 of the you know, the journalist guy that writes about well, I am 825 01:10:30.560 --> 01:10:34.960 somewhat multi dimensional, but Kanty is. If you look at his critigue of 826 01:10:35.000 --> 01:10:40.399 Peer Reason, I mean it's a t KO in the first like five pages. 827 01:10:40.439 --> 01:10:44.560 For most people, it's probably the most esoteric book ever written, except 828 01:10:44.640 --> 01:10:55.640 for maybe James Joycean's Wake. But I became a kantient to a certain degree. 829 01:10:55.720 --> 01:11:00.439 I mean, I see where his thought is problematic. But I rated 830 01:11:00.520 --> 01:11:04.880 Kant into this book that we wrote and what was interesting and which kind of 831 01:11:04.920 --> 01:11:08.680 gives you an idea that you know, I have pretty good working knowledge of 832 01:11:08.760 --> 01:11:12.399 kind. And I was going out with a woman who had the Critique of 833 01:11:12.479 --> 01:11:16.960 Pure Reason on her bookshelf. Wow, And I started to page through it 834 01:11:17.960 --> 01:11:20.359 and I started to read it, and then I realized, you know, 835 01:11:20.399 --> 01:11:27.399 if I continue to read this book, I will not know con I'm more 836 01:11:27.439 --> 01:11:30.199 amazed that you were dating a woman that was in the I've never heard of 837 01:11:30.439 --> 01:11:33.600 of a woman at the cont That's interesting. So, Jay, I really 838 01:11:33.680 --> 01:11:36.319 want to thank you for coming on the Nick Brian podcast. You've been a 839 01:11:36.359 --> 01:11:40.279 great guest. Thank you. Yeah, I want to have you on and 840 01:11:40.319 --> 01:11:42.720 we can get into some of your work as well. I didn't mean to 841 01:11:43.359 --> 01:11:45.640 to uh, pigeonhole you as one dimensional. I just didn't know that you 842 01:11:46.640 --> 01:11:50.680 those other topics I didn't. I don't mind being pigeonholed, doesn't me too 843 01:11:50.760 --> 01:11:54.840 much. Have yourself a great night, all right, Thank you, Nick, 844 01:11:54.880 --> 01:11:56.680 appreciate it. Have a good night. Take care. Jay,